Killing for 'honour'
You can get killed for falling in love in many parts of India. Especially, if you or your lover - and sometimes, spouse - "defy" the preordained rules of the country's fiendishly complex caste system. You can invoke the ire of your family and community and get killed if you marry within your caste, outside your caste, within your sub-caste and so on. You can also get killed for marrying outside your religion.
For many years, urban Indians believed such "honour killings" only happened in remote rural areas, mainly in the northern states of Haryana, Punjab and parts of Uttar Pradesh. Now, they are being reported from the capital Delhi - two couples and a girl in the past week alone. At least 26 others have been killed in Haryana and western Uttar Pradesh in the past 18 months. In neighbouring Punjab, one of India's most prosperous states, police records talk about 34 "honour killings" during the past two and half years - that's one killing a month. The police admit that many more killings may go unreported.
Sociologists say the rising number of such killings point to a collision between the old and young, the conservatives and the liberals, between old India, residing in its villages, and new India, thriving in its cities. They say as India becomes more urbanised, young men and women flock to its crowded cities, looking for work and love, far away from the watchful eyes of their elders and communities. They go to work, and often, fall in love, and invite retribution from their families.
So, very often, such freedom is short lived, as the boys and girls are duped into "meetings" by their families and relatives only to end up being killed brutally. The majority of the murders, police say, are carried out by the girl's family - the family's "honour", the families say, is at stake when their daughters get involved with lower caste men. The killers and their kin are frighteningly unrepentant about murdering their own. "I have no regrets," the uncle of one of the girls whom he allegedly killed recently told journalists, "I will punish them all over again if given another chance."
So what about the myth about that "honour killings" happen only in villages? In this age of globalisation, India lives with one foot in the villages, and the other in cities. Urbanisation is incomplete; there is a lot of urban-rural overlap. Entire families do not migrate to cities, and links with villages remain strong. So although there is more freedom for youngsters to work and mingle in cities, if they end up chosing partners of a lower caste, their elders and communities who live in villages can easily object. "It is a ressertion of community control over those individuals and families on which elements of democracy, capitalism and globalised economy have encroached," says Prem Chowdhry, a scholar who has investigated such killings for decades.
"Honour killings" are not merely about caste. Sociologists believe it's also about sections of the society that are intensely anti-women. In Haryana - the state with possibly the highest number of cases - more women have begun working. Expansion of women in the workforce between 1981 and 1991 was 63%; the increase of men in the workforce during the same period was 26%. Educated women, many village collective heads tell privately, are a "menace".
There are also some baffling double standards. How else can one explain the fact that men in Haryana routinely "purchase" women for marriage from other, lower castes - and even religion - from other parts of the country because there are too few marriageable girls available in their villages?
India has ignored "honour killings" - a lawyer recently called a "national scandal" - for too long. It has denied that they have happened, pointing to its neighbour, Pakistan, as the place where they are prevalent. Human rights groups across the border have generated enough noise and forced their rulers to introduce laws to stop honour killings. In comparison, an Indian representative at a United Nations committee in 2000 actually denied reports of "honour killings" of women.
A spate of killings in the ruling Congress party-led state of Haryana - where traditional village collectives have been actually found to order such killings - and now in Delhi has prompted the country's Supreme Court to ask the government what it is doing to prevent them.
It's good that India has finally woken up to this reprehensible crime. The courts are asking the governments to protect couples who defy tradition. There are reports of an impending law against such killings, like in Pakistan. But citizens, politicians and rights groups need to stand up and protest loudly. Because "honour killings" are no longer India's best kept secret.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~13~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Very weak argument in the article, the writer heavily suffers from western prejudice and cultural nuances, completely fails in bringing the point about the Indian values and perspective.
Complain about this comment
Over the years, the number of honor killings in India has gone down, but even one honor killing is too many.
These killings are against the Indian Constitutional, Article 21 (Protection of life and personal liberty). So why isn’t the Indian Government stepping in, providing a clear demonstration that Article 21 will be enforced. The Government must lead; it must publicize rights under the Constitution; it must place the Constitution in a high and inviolate position.
The Indian Government, in short, must act. Once an overall stipulation to reinforce Article 21 is released;, the Government should follow up explicitly with khap panchayats (caste councils). With the caste councils the Government must reinforce that honor killing is KILLING, and killing will not be condoned in India.
If the Government does not act, each honor-kiling victim is forever silenced; it’s the Government’s job to speak for these victims and enforce a more modern and more enlightened approach.
Complain about this comment
So long a good part of Indian population maintain unquestionable faith on traditional interpretation of religion and superstitions (like caste) such crimes will continue. That trend is directly related to illiteracy, poverty and lack of affordable and effective judiciary. When people have less exposure, no practical hope to get a decent life, to get time bound justice they tend to believe more on “religion” (and/or some sort of supernatural power like God) and superstition in the name of tradition. That has again direct relation to quality of education (not degrees).
The more disturbing part is many lawmakers (e.g MP Navin Jindal) tactically support such (constitutionally) illegal activities. I am not sure whether they really believe in following such “traditions” or they do it to maintain their vote-bank in those affected areas, among those concerned communities.
Complain about this comment
Many Indian families have no problem to get their daughters married to “upper” caste people, in the name of “open mindedness”. I have seen at least few families who have “no” problem for inter-caste marriages so long the probable spouses are from “upper” caste background. But the same families are very against any marriage proposal if the groom is from “lower” caste! Moreover, when you think of them on macro level, many of such communities do not hesitate to organize movements to get “lower” caste status to avail OBC or other type of government reservation.
Complain about this comment
tom wrote:
“Very weak argument in the article, the writer heavily suffers from western prejudice and cultural nuances, completely fails in bringing the point about the Indian values and perspective.”
Which argument are you talking about? The article merely states facts. When did murdering your own child become part of Indian values?
I can understand parents being upset for a while and perhaps even ending their relationship with their offspring if the chosen marital partner is seen to be unsuitable. Even in the West marital bonds between partners from different religions, races or social classes face parental obstacles. But murder cannot be acceptable. Thousands of inter-caste marriages take place in India every year. Surely parents who do not go about murdering cannot be classed as being devoid of Indian values.
Complain about this comment
The entire fabric of our society is divided into caste and religion.
Such incidents reveal the truth that still after more than 60 years of Independence we still lack proper education. Honour killings, Dowry deaths are glaring examples of women oppression. Social activist have raised voices and law has been enforced but still in some parts of our country people have not been able to transgress.Though the issue of caste based division of our society is complex but changes are also taking place like inter caste marraige is nowadays very much prevelant.
Honour killings is a crime and goverment should impose harsh laws for the culprits. A change can only come when we all start making a conscious effort to liberate ourselves from such bondage.
Complain about this comment
In India many people, if not majority, follow some meaningless rituals in the name of "tradition". Sometime ago I wrote a blog, “Is India a better place to bring up kids?”: http://jaychatterjee.blogspot.com/2007/12/is-india-better-place-to-bring-up-kids.html. BTW, not all traditions are bad, but many are. We need to differentiate among those. And globalization is making it worse. We, general Indians, are loosing our good values fast while adopting cheap and easy imitable negative aspects of western culture at the same fast pace.
Majority of such people never dared to question the very basis of such traditions, whether it was of any good to the bigger society in the past and/or offer any tangible benefit to our society today! When they grow up (age-wise), they start searching some form of “reasons” they find attractive to believe and justify their actions. It becomes more important when they mix up with other people from other social background (starts mainly during hostel days). They hardly validate the logic (to themselves) and then start observing such rituals. Most of the time it is other way round. If an Indian kid grows up with a vegetarian diet (as imposed by his/her guardians) s/he will show a high tendency to invoke many hypothetical and illogical reasons to justify that behavior. It is not that everyone must eat meat or other non-veg but the reasons they site are generally very vague. If they tell that they do not like the taste or they feel compassionate about other animals then it makes more sense than to invoke ancient scripts or cite “tradition” to justify that behavior. They just follow such rituals more like a habit than a conscious decision of a matured person. Formal education does reduce such tendencies yet we get enough so-called educated people with heavy weight degrees that break that trend. I can remember one such instances when many powerful and seemingly educated people from western India from Rajput clan were up with arms against the movie "Jodha Akbar" as they thought that the film dented into the reputation of their clan and subdued the glorious history of Rajputs! Such seemingly educated and powerful people are more dangerous to the society as compared to an illiterate poor people, who practically have nothing but religion and tradition to face the next day in their otherwise tough lives. They also take help of half-baked knowledge of science. These days the term “genetics” is very fashionable to justify many traditional social behaviors (be it caste division among Hindus or banning same-gotra marriage by Khap Panchayat). Little learning is not only dangerous for the society but also to the people against whom they practice their demonic knowledge.
Complain about this comment
India's Caste System and Honor Killings
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
India's caste system is based on Rebirth.It attributes Karma for every individual's action and awards that individual his/her caste ,economic status,spiritual status,gender and myriad of other factors pertinent for life.For example a factor in overall happiness of life,good family,good spouse,good children,innate skills or strong inclination to benevolence ..all have a dependence in previous Karma.Now,this is the PAST or FATE.
As the 4 varnas are segregated,caste at the top have more responsibility for their SvaDharma,that is, a Brahmin will accrue more sin for larceny(theft) than an individual at 4th varna.So for the same crime,the Brahmin will be awarded more punishment than a layman.
There is PRESENT KARMA or a person's FREE-WILL.No one can say that all is FATE and I have no way to change my future.As PRESENT ACTIONS are the PRESENT KARMA.They have the power to nullify the effects of Past actions as "Nothing is unattainable without persistent effort and perseverance".
As an example,in schools we see some children can grasp what they read in one go.We say they are brilliant or even call them child prodigy.In Sanskrit there is a term called "Eka-Skanda-Grahi"(A person who understands and comprehends in one read).So how do some children have such innate talents and some children have a very hard time coping in school? Why some children can sing well/Draw well or debate and be more creative than others?
Any action that is done a lot in previous births will have an effect in the present birth.Also merits of previous birth get culminated and award or punish an individual.So that does not mean a child who is not doing well in school should give up,instead it should try even harder,so hard that its present actions begins to beat its slow learning skill and success smiles on it.Look at Vishvamitra's story,which is a paragon for depicting,how present actions are paramount to success in life and to accomplish a goal
Honor Killings
~~~~~~~~
A person should marry within his CASTE and should NOT marry within same Gotra or family tree as same Gotra marriage means marrying in the same family tree and is similar to a BROTHER-SISTER marriage which is strictly prohibited.
Hindu religion or Sanathana Dharma DOES NOT sanction killing of Siblings if they decide to break this system and marry outside their caste or marry in same Gotra.So if a family decides to kill their children ,then it will face divine retribution as killing someone is a huge sin in this case.
KHAP panchayat or parents who kill their siblings are NOT the compass to judge India's caste system.As there are thousands of panchayats across India and there are thousands of Parents,who while living with Dharma and the Caste system,have helped their wards succeed in society by giving them a good education and amenities.
However,families should repudiate their siblings who have chosen to tread their way and break from the path of Dharma.
Heretical blasphemers run Amok
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now this is a time of plenty for some "modern" thinkers.Who by the way are blasphemers,who now nothing about this religion or the premise of the caste system but choose comment on our religion without taking the effort to study and understand the reasons before aping the occidental society.
Perhaps thats why they come and lecture us on vegetarianism.Do they know that some findings of Stanford university this year on our ritual/custom is proven to be very beneficial to health??
Well,blasphemers seem to have a penchant for controversy,than a genuine resolve to learn and this religion does not care a tittle on people who nitpick or quibble.
India's caste system,Sanathana Dharma are sacrosanct.If we as people choose to commit injustices against one another,we should blame ourselves than blame the Caste or religion.
Complain about this comment
Both honour killings and any systemic discrimination among people (mainly Hindus) on the basis of caste must be dealt with iron hands by Indian state. If any government official or politician is proven to support, directly or indirectly, such heinous social crimes must be expelled from the office or legislature without further delay. India has tolerated the non-sense of caste for far too long. Now we cannot afford to ignore or by-pass that issue, as it can potentially destroy many of our social and economical development we have achieved so far and drag the whole society to the medieval age like the Talibans did for our neighbouring country.
Complain about this comment
Its good that you brought up this issue.Caste,creed,race and untouchability are present in some facets of life in India.This doesn't reflect the attitude of most Indians however.It is on the decline and there are laws introduced by the Indian government to fight these issues.
In Australia racism ,marginalisation and the practise of unequal opportunities are prevalent but greatly on the decline.These things are not what most Australians believe in.The Australian government has laws to fight them and will prosecute anyone found to be guilty.
I wish all the journalists had taken this point of view when reporting about Australia a few months ago.They all resorted to yellow journalism so much so that the credibility of Indian journalists who were honest ,principled and hard-working is now on the line.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
The Hindu religion is not like the monotheistic religions which originated in ancient Israel and unlike the assertions of 'EternalIndia' there is no compulsion to follow set rules and diktats. The mistake made by many is confusing ancient Indian traditions with Hinduism. The core of Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism) is beautifully and succinctly enunciated in The Bhagvada Gita; Krishna clearly states that to reach 'Him' (i.e the eternal/nirvana or whatever you want to call this concept) one does NOT need to follow any single and narrow 'path' (interpret as didactic religion/customs). As Hindus we have to do our duty; not harm anyone knowingly or for selfish reasons. By performing our 'duty' or 'karma' in day-to-day life we are well on our path to salvation and need not follow any other customs/rituals (unless we want to).
Hinduism thus is a very open and tolerant religion and only when people start confusing the customs of ancient India (like the caste system) with religion do we see problems. The roots of the caste system lie in Indian society of 5000 years ago when it was a mark of your occupation and was not rigid. The rigidity and discrimination came later, primarily as a means of power-retention by the 'upper-castes'.
The entrenchment of discrimination in the name of religion is a gross distortion of Sanatan Dharma and has no place in Hinduism.
Secondly such killings are murder; again nothing to do with Hinduism. As long as Hindus remain ignorant of what their religion is about and confuse outdated social customs with religion, those in power will continue to use this confusion and ignorance to perpetrate such crimes simply to retain that power.
In the 21st Century we need to live like 21st century people; this means education, being rational, allowing personal freedom and choice and not being stuck with customs developed for a society 5000 years ago. Pure Hinduism is not incompatible with this, if only one bothered to look!
Complain about this comment
These guys should get some secret services help like some families are able to.
1.Do you see any royal family members gettting married to non royals anywhere in the world? I recon they are allowed to marry only their group.
2.How many royals are mixed race say Black & White ,Brown and white ?
Complain about this comment
@# 12 .
Thanx Vivek Mishra for getting the facts right.You have very beautifully put my thoughts into words.All those people who say that this caste system is a creation of Hinduism don't know anything at all.Hinduism is one the most ancient, tolerant and accepting of all religions.Infact if one thinks about it; it's less of a religion and more of a lifestyle.The principles being; "simple living yet high thinking".
Look at our contributions into maths, science and astronomy.The ancient texts teach us to worship nature and our forefathers worshipped nature perhaps because they understood its power. The scientists today talk of global warming and climate change but our fore fathers worshipped the mountains from whose glaciers the rivers arose.They worshipped the trees which provided shade and kept global warming in check.The houses were built according to "Vaastu Shasthra" so as to take advantage of the prevailing winds and natural lighting.Today beef eating has been recognised as leaving a very large carbon footprint.People in the west are giving it up.Hindus don't eat beef.Coincidence?Sounds like a modern science and environment lecture?The Sanskrit language in which the Vedas and the Upanishads were written is today recognised as the most scientific and its grammar has been compared to computer programming language syntax.
If you want to bash any religion or are an atheist its OK.In today's modern world of free speech everything goes.But please have the knowledge and intelligence to back up what you say.Most respected modern atheists are very intelligent men and its a learning and fascinating experience to hear what they have to say.So if you want to follow in their foot steps then you have to say something that is worth listening to and not just blabber around with little knowledge and no facts.
Hinduism just like other religions respects all life forms and never advocates killing.For that matter no religious text ever advocates killing.Its the people in power who interpret these texts that are the trouble makers.This has been recognised in the west long ago and strictly today religion and politics are kept apart.You will not find religious symbols in most modern western democracies' government institutions.They are banned for the very same reasons.To keep the state and church apart.India is a secular nation too but may have some way to go before finally catching up.Of course there are bad apples everywhere and evangelists, mullahs and Hindu god-men try and exploit religion to muster votes.
It was only towards the latter periods the Brahmans(Hindu priests) got corrupt and started interpreting the texts to suit themselves and their offspring.It is these god men who created the modern day caste system which initially was only intended as a division of labour.So don't blame any religion.Instead point your fingers at the people who exploit religion to divide and strengthen their vote banks.
Complain about this comment
THESE CRUEL PEOPLE MUST BE HANGED , WHY INDIAN GOVT DO NOT MAKE LAW FOR THAT AND PUNISHMENT MUST BE HANGED ONLY , SO THAT NO HONOUR KILLER DARE TO DO THIS , REST THING IS MATTER OF THINK AND DISCUSS, BUT NO BODY HAS RIGHT TO KILL SOME ONE AT ANY COST , WHY INDIAN LAW IS SO HELPLESS FOR THERE OWN PEOPLE .
Complain about this comment
@Vivek mishra : You wrote "unlike the assertions of 'EternalIndia' there is no compulsion to follow set rules and diktats."
Well I wanna correct you.I am saying again that I do not ask anyone to obey a dictat or tenet because I say so.All I say to heretics is that if they do not accept Svadharma,rebirth,then they do not believe in Sanathana dharama obviously.Hence,they should give up this religion fully and help themselves and people to adhere by distancing themselves than lecturing about our religious tenets/rules and justifications,of which they are oblivious.
Also when you say "there is no compulsion",well you and me need not impose a compulsion to "follow" a tenet.If one ignores his Svadharma,he will face retribution.So why should you and me bother to "impose" a rule on someone.We NEED NOT.The KHAP panchayat SHOULD NOT.
This religion does NOT seek to proselytize and "grow by numbers".In fact it is strengthened by adherence to Dharma.It is nourished and bolstered when blasphemers seek to "leave" the religion.
I also assert that before blaming the religion or Caste System ,one should introspect if they he/she has fully lived up to rectitude and moral scruples.If this question is thrown to our minds by us,the answer will resonate loud..that we have failed in the righteous path some where,somehow though we all are different in degree of turpitude,we have not been honest all the time,or we have not lived up to the high values of our ancestors...Then we will realize that Caste system is not the problem but we ourselves need a SELF-CONQUEST.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
8. At 02:03am on 24 Jun 2010, EternalIndia wrote:
"India's Caste System and Honor Killings"
Thanks for the lesson. I learned something today.
Complain about this comment
1. At 1:30pm on 23 Jun 2010, tom wrote:
Very weak argument in the article, the writer heavily suffers from western prejudice and cultural nuances, completely fails in bringing the point about the Indian values and perspective.
***************************
How quaintly medieval....this would be the indian values whereby the people that are closest to you and supposedly protect you (i.e. your family)...end up murdering you. Naturally the author of such nonsensical comments above is male...good to see mysoginy and contempt for life is still alive and kicking in 21st century (or should that be 15th century) India.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If someone becomes atheist does not mean that he did not or do not understand or study religion. No body is a born atheist. In fact, it will be prudent to say that majority of atheists do study religion (more than many so-called religious people) and then decide what to opt for. It is a conscious decision of a matured person, unlike someone who was born to some religion or caste and then try to justify each and everything written in some ancient book or “tradition” (suitable for his/her interpretation of religion or caste) s/he follows or believes. Probably formal religions are loosing more ground because of such Bin-Laden type religious fanatics more than the religion itself.
It is irreverent whether I believe in Hinduism (as per the definition of an religious bigot whom I consider a black spot on true spirit of religion) or not. We are discussing a social issue here. And lets concentrate on that.
Complain about this comment
There is no 'honour' in killing; sometimes it may be justified (during a legitimate war, for example) but it is still not honourable. The loss of a precious human life can never be.
Of all religions, the one that is least likely to legitimise violence is Hinduism. Hence whether one is an atheist, a moderate or someone who believes ancient texts without understanding them; none can justify the killing of innocents.
It is time that the perpetrators are brought to justice and the absurd spectacle of extra-judicial killings ordered by a religious 'court' in a secular country is stopped.
For those who yearn for the mythical India described in the Ramayana: you only need to ask yourself this question, would such acts ever happen during 'Ram-Rajya'?
Complain about this comment
I wrote my understanding and analysis on evolution of religion and God. One can reda it, "God created man or man created God?" : http://jaychatterjee.blogspot.com/2007/05/god-created-man-or-man-created-god_11.html
Complain about this comment
An informative topic indeed, providing light to the true "India." However, when you mention "marriageable girls," you should understand that girls are not allowed to marry, and that the minimum age for a WOMAN to be married is eighteen, according to Indian law. This does not ignore the fact that child marriages do occur very frequently in the country, for both boys and girls (often men and girls, actually).
As far as tom's comment is concerned, I simply believe such a person should have no right to exercise the right to freedom of speech. First of all, there is no such thing as Indian values, unless the person is intending to stereotype entire India, of course.
Being an urban woman who has been living in India for many years, I can tell you that I have never believed that honor killings were a rural India practice. It is fairly common in urban India but goes heavily unreported. For that "uncle" being mentioned in the article, I wonder why he isn't behind bars already (although I do understand the corrupt workings of India's judicial system).
To EternalIndia, I find your comments sexist, racist, and narrow-minded (perhaps you're one of those Indians who like to create racism within their own society). About your name-callings, you should understand that any person is allowed to choose any name irrespective of the religion associated with the name, if any. About your anti-antisemitism comment, you should understand that it were not only the Jews who were killed during the Holocaust, but they surely formed the majority. The Holocaust was a shame on the face of humankind, similar to the way honor killings are a shame on the face of India.
Complain about this comment
It was more interesting reading the comments (particularly one from Mr Misra) rather than the actual blog. I have to admit that I am a hindu bramhin by birth but only a mere atheist by nature. I am an obligatory non-vegetarian and I enjoy my meals. I really feel sorry for those vegetarians (particularly those imposed by their religion rather than self imposed ones). I was one of them and I really understand their pain. They simply don’t know what they are missing. Nevertheless, I wish the religious fanatics (at least one of them is here) and vegetarians all the best. I don’t think any of these comments will be able to change their mind.
Complain about this comment
This isn't 'killing.' It's murder. Killing is self-defence, or defending one's country. Murder is planned and pointless, and for those who are about to tell me that the commandment says Thou Shalt Not Kill, it actually isn't. The correct translation is Thou Shall not Commit Murder. This isn't just an Indian problem. It happens on the African continent and in the West Bank, Gaza and Israel. The difference is that the Israeli legal system is designed to punish those found guilty of so called honour killings. It's not unheard of for a an Israeli Jewish man to commit such a crime. The difference is that he's not regarded as a hero by his family or his neighbours, or even by the guys who share his jail cell. It's time that men around the world - and women too - recognized that a family's honour has nothing to do with the behaviour of its female members. It has everything to do with the loyalty of family members when people make mistakes. A real man stands by the members of his family. A pathetic weasel murders them.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"For those who yearn for the mythical India described in the Ramayana: you only need to ask yourself this question, would such acts ever happen during 'Ram-Rajya'?"
Well then why did you quote Krishna and the Bhagwat Gita .Wasn't that Mythical too?? when you quote its rational and when others come back and quote religious texts ,it's Mythical is it?
No one is supporting/condoning the honor killing.Go read my first comment on this blog.
Complain about this comment
@ Winnie:
"As far as tom's comment is concerned, I simply believe such a person should have no right to exercise the right to freedom of speech."
Well just because you believe that someone has no right to express his opinion,like TOM,it does not preclude us from refuting you.
You wrote :"First of all, there is no such thing as Indian values, unless the person is intending to stereotype entire India, of course."
Ha Ha.How ignorant.Well if you sit half way around the world and say there are no Indian values,I or others have no time and energy to present Indian values to you in a platter for your woeful incorrectness.If you believe there are no Indian values why don't you ignore India altogether and imitate the occidental society for good.
You are dead wrong to call my comments as you have labelled.The occident of 20th century cannot be absolved for slave trade,world wars,use of nuclear weapons,colonization.
Complain about this comment
Vegetarianism : Not just Gustatory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For people who said that Vegetarians are missing the 'taste' of Non-Veg food.I can only sit back and laugh.Let's make the taste buds wait for some time.I wanna bring up the topic of Global hunger.The consumption of meat and meat-products is contributing to world hunger indirectly.
As it takes much more energy to rear animals than crops.because ...
VEGETARIANISM AND WORLD FOOD SECURITY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Every 3 seconds, somewhere in the world "A KID" dies because of hunger or malnutrition; says a credible source.
Well so, how is that related to vegeterianism? It is, BIG TIME.
Production of meat is 'THE most ineffecient/unsustainable" way of feeding the population.
According to the International Vegetarian Union, if we produce 1 kg of soybean = it would take 2000 tons of water. While on the same hand, if we want to produce 1 kg of "BEEF" it would take 100,000 tons of water."
Read more - http://www.vegsoc.org/
So people who commented on BEEF and one other person in this blog who felt for people who don't eat Non Veg food,remember that eating meat in a way makes hunger prevail indirectly in Sub-Saharan Africa.
Now back to Religion.Sanathana Dharma or Hinduism unequivocally says that any form of life is sacred.We can rear crops for our food but killing animals is prohibited.Well then I ask beef eaters(who jeer at vegetarians) here if killing a human is crime(yes I agree),why don't we see killing animals as heinous too? Animal feels no pain when slaughtered is it? Animals have no feeling for its offspring like love or grief is it? Well it certainly can't come and tell us in words.It has all our emotions.
On the comment that "BUT generally any person having strict vegetarian diet can NEVER have well built, balanced body."
Well strength comes physically and mentally.Good exercise,and good vegetarian diet in proteins can make up a strong body.Go and see in ghats of Varanasi.You will find "Pehelwans" who do not eat meat ,but are one of the strongest men I have seen.
I am not asking anyone to become vegetarian.I answered to people who come and shed crocodile tears for Vegetarians and those who batted for Beef eating.So its one's prerogative to be a Vegetarian or otherwise.But don't lecture us that Vegetarianism prescribed by Hinduism is passe.
Respect the Vegetarianism of religion,irrespective of whether you adhere to it or not.PERIOD.
India,as the land of spices has produced excellent cuisine in Vegetarian diet which many foreign travelers relish than bland frozen/canned meat as they say.Perhaps thats why Indian food is so popular and people find vegetarian diet less heavy.
I assert that the our senses when fed with so called "pleasures" will always relish them.Senses will always ask for more,ask for variety,but WILL NEVER BE SATISFIED.
Complain about this comment
Comment no 30(modified and reposted)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some people will call anybody else a BIGOT who will come and refute their blasphemous assertions
Why don't they let the religion go by divesting themselves of their faith?
Because when they see that some Brahmins adhere to the path of Dharma and are living a life of chastity..if one cannot tolerate it and it IRKS .If one cannot see a Brahmin follow his SvaDharma and starts using highly disrespectful language to jeer at their way of life,so be it.But may be such people and their ILK are distraught and discontented by their own way of Life.
Penchant for beef and non-vegetarian food has no relevance to the topic here,so no use of broaching such issues.It proves weakness of analysis and desperate attempt to malign religion.
Hence,the Caste System need not be shackled by the judgements of such people.Religon of Sanathana Dharma is not be at mercy of sneering
pseudo-modernists.
Complain about this comment
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this debate. I hadn't realized how interesting and thought provoking it would be.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I must say, as an outsider who knows little about India, this blog and the comments that follow are always very interesting to me.
As for this incessant war of words between eternalindia and jay et al. (from the point of view of a person who sides with neither), this is becoming a very unobjective diatribe as both sides are feeling personally attacked and insulted and feel they must respond in kind.
In a civilized forum, points should be presented and explored without the use of insults. A person who disagrees with you should not be vilified or seen as the enemy. Rather, a wise person would seriously consider his/her opponent's (not enemy) point of view.
Just my few cents :) other than that, i'm learning a lot about Hinduism today.
Complain about this comment
According to majority people, in all the developed countries surveyed so far, shows that influence of religion is decreasing in those societies. We see the same trend in USA as well.
In USA, about 51.6% of people think that it is decreasing and about 37.5% believe that it is increasing.
(Religion and Public Life Survey, 2002): http://www.thearda.com/quickStats/qs_46.asp
Then one can read, “Intelligent people is less likely to believe in God”: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html
Complain about this comment
Is there any SANE person who wants to know more about veg or non-veg diet, response towards biotic and abiotic damages by plants (sensation of “pain” by plants), nutritional value, impact of veg diet on human health etc and/or if non-veg, mainly beef eating is against Hinduism or not? Please let me know if any sensible people have any question about that. I’ll try my best to explain my views.
Complain about this comment
For beef part one can start with the BBC news, “Beef book sparks Hindu protest”, BBC news (9 August, 2001): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1482614.stm)
Complain about this comment
"A survey of (British) Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.
A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God."
A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he (Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University) claimed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
13 BakedBeans:
"Do you see any royal family members gettting married to non royals anywhere in the world? I recon they are allowed to marry only their group."
Prince Albert of Monaco is marrying a non royal South African swimmer shortly. Fergie was a commoner when she married Andrew, Diana was not a royal before marriage, the Danish Crown prince married an Australian girl, a Swedish princess married her personal trainer this week, a Japanese princess married a commoner recently.
So I'd hazard a guess and say royals can marry outside their group.
Complain about this comment
Well,the claim that "Intelligent people are less likely to believe in God".. so does this mean the religious are not intelligent?
Fact is one can question a dictum and try to reason,then one must also study the premise or the scripture to see the rationale for the dictum than superficially complaining.
As for blind followers,it may not be the best way to follow but still its better than superficial manufactured controversy.A sweet when tasted by a layman or a veteran cook who knows how much effort and steps are needed to make that confection ,will both relish the sweetness.
I can do a Phd in some university tomorrow to choose 'beef eating' as topic and guess what,if that university is funded by some special interest groups,will readily approve me a stipend also.
And then I publish that dissertation to be quoted profusely in this blog.And it can get reported in the media galling people by its claims.Which means even BBC can publish it in a news article.
That however,does not make such theories a proof.I know "intelligent people" who are Hindus and religious ,who study in IIT or Stanford university at the forefront of scientific research.Who solemnly follow their religion than manufacturing controversy.They also respect atheists.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
I have no idea what side of Hindu way of life EternalIndia is depicting here, but I am glad that Jay and Vivek Misra were able to present facts and hopefully help to remove the distortion that EternalIndia is trying to create here.
A few things to consider:
- I have extensively studied all religions and especially Hinduism and Buddhism in detail.
- No explicit concept of vegetarianism in Hinduism, but implicitly stated in the fact that everything around you that you see or don't see is part of 'Brahma'(or the Universe if literally translated), including yourself. You do not have the right take anything away from it, if you don't have the power to replace it. A state of balance is emphasized in the Vedas and Upanishads. (Ying-Yang, anyone?)
- No explicit mention of multiple gods. On the contrary, if anything it strictly monotheistic, BUT has references to respect the forces of nature. (Agni - Fire, Waayu - Wind, Prithvi - Earth, Jal - Water). This respect over the years (remember a few millenniums is LONG time) created symbolic entities that represent these forces and hence you respect (or worship) them. Not sure if average Indian citizen even knows anymore.
- Caste was exactly like someone described here. It was based on occupation and nothing else. Over the course of few thousand years, Brahmin (priests) really liked having the power and made it more rigid.
My conclusion is that both Hinduism and Buddhism offer brilliant, intelligent and objective guidelines to live your life. One needs to refer to the Vedas, Gita and Upnishads to understand better. Gautam Buddha was appalled at the social structure in his time and to me it seems like Buddhism was all about taking Hinduism back to the basics - the way it was meant to be.
As opposed to the Abrahamic religions, there is no ONE book for Hindus to follow or one God to pray. In the end, in order to find Nirvana or Moksha, you need to become one with the Universe (Brahma). That is the state of perfection, but the irony is that in order achieve Moksha you have to abandon everything....(remember Gautam Budda?)
Having said that, if you look at the modern India or your average Hindu, the religion they practice is far from its roots. Those few who know it, practice it and don't preach it.
Aside from the extreme facets that exist in all religion, we should be thankful that this earth was blessed with having the likes of ancient Hindu saints, Buddha, Moses, Christ and Mohammed. Otherwise, we would be bunch of yahoos trying to hurt each other 'constantly' with no guideline for good and bad. In the end, we are just another species of mammal w/o these guidelines....
Complain about this comment
Well CJ Vasani says that I am distorting and he has
"extensively studied all religions and especially Hinduism and Buddhism in detail" and claims "No explicit concept of vegetarianism in Hinduism"
Well then what do you have to say about the Caste system.Is it not mentioned at all.Have you studied all Upanishads,all Smritis,all Puranas,all Epics,all Vedas and completed Advaita ,Mimmasa and Tarka also VEDANTA(END OF VEDAS)?
As for Advaita it CLEARLY says "One who claims to know,KNOWS NOT".
Sage Bharadwaja could not complete his studies and his story says he asked Goddess Saraswati for more time and his life span got twice extended.
But you have completed the study is it? You are incorrect to say that vegetarianism is not mentioned.I can tell you where it is mentioned-Manu smriti.(I cannot paste the Sanskrit verse here as it breaks BBC blog rule of use a non-English language).
Yes it says there is one Brahman(supreme being) but it manifests in innumerable Gods.But a lay man is asked to choose an Ishta devata and it supports idol worship initially.Then one can cross this level from idol to shapeless form.This and whatever I wrote on the religion,IS NOT MY VIEW,BUT VERBATIM FROM HINDUISM.
But I don't know why you brought this up.The topic here is on the deplorable "honor killing" by misusing Caste as a reason.You may discuss this and present your view than digressing.
Complain about this comment
EternalIndia - If my learning was complete, I wouldn't be posting on this blog. You need to adjust your studies for the distortion factor. Where / When it was written will give you a few clues.
Bottom line on honor killings - They are wrong from religious, ethical, human, legal and constitutional points of view. Take it for what it is.
Complain about this comment
I believe in Hindu philosophy; as decribed in The Gita, The Vedas and Upanishads. However, the stories that have been used to explain complex philosophical principles are just that: stories.
Do I beileve in the teachings of The Gita: Yes! Do I believe that the Kaurava brothers were born in earthenware pots: No! All religions have resorted to stories to explain complex thinking to people. That does not make the stories true. If they were true then do I believe that I am originated from Manu whilst my neighbour in England is from Adam and my Norwegian friend originated from the bark of a Cedar tree?
Hence I do not see any contradiction in quoting a philosophical argument from an ancient text and being somewhat circumspect about the mythology surrounding it.
Hinduism has been corrupted by power brokers for millennia. Just like the use of Latin by the catholic church until the reformation kept Mediaeval christians ignorant of the true teachings of Christ, so the use of mumbo-jumbo, rituals and mantras by the Hindu hierarchy has deprived the ordinary person from appreciating the true philosophy and beauty of this religion.
Throughout history there are examples of people trying to break this mould and some (Like Tulsidas and his Awadhi Ramayan) have succeeed but not without paying the price in terms of being excluded by their peers.
Hinduism is not a unidimensional religion; it has many facets. Some may choose a very literal custom based approach and some may look at the spirtual and philosophical side; who is to say who is right and who is wrong?
The arguments on here are sometimes too personal and not worthy of civilised debate. One should be able to put forward a reasoned argument without being personally attacked or judged for it.
Complain about this comment
CJ Vaswani- I would not dare to claim that I studied and completed everything.I agree that we will not debate here if we completed the studies of our scriptures.
But you cannot possibly quote a distortion factor and accuse me doing do.If so,I challenge you to prove it by a scripture,that any of my statements as false on the Caste system or Vegetarianism. Nothing is my view here when it comes to Sanathana Dharma.
But let's not digress.We both condemn this "honor killing".
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
I said, “Almost every society and people have good number of people who believe that older time was better, older time was more peaceful, music, movie etc in older days are better etc”. The main reason for this is, as I think, is as follows:
We grow up in a secure environment amongst our parents and close relatives we have less worry, we have not faced the actual, hostile world. That time we have a immature mind but a curious brain. We experience or try to experience as far as possible overcoming parents’ objections whatever we come across, without facing the consequences for most of the cases. We enjoy undiluted joy when it goes right, but our parents take care of the consequences when something goes wrong (in most of the cases). In that young, immature mind everything from that era looks great. When we grow up we starting analyzing issues on its own merit, depending on one’s own education and experience. We start facing consequences of our own actions. Then the world does not look so great. A kid growing up now will have no problem to accept Justin Beeber as a better singer than, say, George Michel or John Lenon. While his/her father probably will not accept that view. If you extend this hypothesis little further, you might have a better understanding why we (in general) feel great about our past more than our present.
Complain about this comment
No-one is asking for,India to be turned into a Theocracy.
I know such a step will be the premise for misusing the religion. Political slug-fest on religion will follow.
But one thing is very clear.This laws in this country do not "force" any one to follow this religion.This religion does not proselytize and does not seek to distend by just "numbers".
Its one prerogative to follow it or otherwise.But repugnance against a dictum is unwarranted when statements are made.Respect for the religion,its dictum's, irrespective of adherence or not is essential, because many others may be following it and one should be careful in calling that dictum unwanted in a public forum.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
Black is Black and White is White...as for argument of making others to know the reality,it is a sham. Reality is that this any religion should not be prejudged upon and its principles commented in an "off hand" manner WITHOUT due study.
No is trying to base this country on a caste of religion.I have talked about India NOT being a theocracy,as,such a system will be misused.But Caste and Religion will prevail despite people trying to misuse it or some other people trying to cast aspersions on it.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
@EternalIndia: When I said I was expressing popular sentiment, I think there are enough posts (not just in response to this article) by other readers that don't want the thread taken over by arguments on the writings and beliefs of Hinduism. I wasn't in any way inferring that you need my, or anyone else's validation to post your thoughts.
My issue is this: There are a large number of social issues facing India, and the subcontinent in general. A lot of these stem from lack of education, access to healthcare, and inequality in opportunities made available to people. However, when someone tried to address these issues, there is a section of society that claims that these things are part of our culture, or get defensive about religion not being the cause of these problems.
All I'm saying is let's keep our focus on what the problems are, and not detract from them by going on diatribes about dharma and the meaning of life, which at the end of the day, mean nothing to the millions of starving and oppressed. Is that so bad?
Re. the comment on misogynistic attitudes, as an Indian woman, I face that every day. Please don't respond to that with a five-page ramble on the role of women in Hinduism. It doesn't really help me, or other young women in India.
Complain about this comment
Also EternalIndia, when you say that initially you were talking about honour killings, you wrote two small paragraphs that actually pertain to the issue. The rest of your post was about the different castes, and rebirth... So when you say why can't people express their opinions instead of picking on you, that's the reason. While the rest of us are engaging in a meaningful conversation about a certain topic, you've decided to talk about something completely unrelated. A lot.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is unfortunate that any social evil we try to discuss here is distracted to role, meaning of religion (Hinduism). We all know that every social ritual, tradition, religion itself evolve from our past history. Some are good, many are not so good. We need to eliminate and/or condemn all social superstitions and wrong tradition. It is immaterial if that is past of Hinduism, as one may think. If broader society and the laws of the land thinks that/those are not of any benefit or having a negative impact on our society, for both Hindus and others, then it must go. And all logical Hindus also have the social and national duty to purify this religion, if we think something in that religion need reform. No religion is and should remain a static entity. Religion, like language and tradition must be dynamic and need reform form time to time to keep up with our social and political values to make our country and society better.
Is there any SANE person who wants to know more about veg or non-veg diet, response towards biotic and abiotic damages by plants (sensation of “pain” by plants), nutritional value, impact of veg diet on human health etc and/or if non-veg, mainly beef eating is against Hinduism or not? Please let me know if any sensible people have any question about that. I’ll try my best to explain my views.
For beef part one can start with the BBC news, “Beef book sparks Hindu protest”, BBC news (9 August, 2001): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1482614.stm)
According to majority people, in all the developed countries surveyed so far, shows that influence of religion is decreasing in those societies. We see the same trend in USA as well.
In USA, about 51.6% of people think that it is decreasing and about 37.5% believe that it is increasing.
(Religion and Public Life Survey, 2002): http://www.thearda.com/quickStats/qs_46.asp
Then one can read, “Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God”: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nekonat:You are right that I wrote a relatively small para on the 'Honor Killing' in comment number 8.
But we all agree that the killing in the name of honor is highly reprehensible.
But since this killing is based on the misuse of the Caste ,I did not want the debate to be ruddered into a direction without knowing the premise of India's Caste system
Also I answered how.I did not start the Vegetarianism or Ritual debate.It all begins in comment number 7.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
I understand that murder in the name of religion or caste is bad (as such religious fanatics always mention during such debates).
• What such “Hindus” think about inter-caste marriage? GOOD OR BAD (as per THEIR interpretation of Hinduism)?
• DO they agree that “real” Hindus should prevent or oppose inter-caste marriage, WITHOUT killing the bride-grooms and uphold the “dignity” of caste system among Hindus?
I am really curious to know how THEY like laws of secular India to be! OR do they not like India to remain secular and be converted to a Hindu country?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Seeds of many major social problems, India face today, were sown long ago by encouraging each and every main stream religions to have its special civil laws. The same thing happened for caste based reservation policy. It is almost impossible to get rid of any such privileges once it were extended to few people and/or to satisfy the religious and political (which is inter-connected in many instances) ambition of selected leaders depending on their vote bank, in a country like India. Such policies continues and the negative impact of those on the whole society also multiplies exponentially. Few political parties, mainly BJP, was preaching for uniform civil code for long, but it never took off for various reasons. I am not sure how sincere BJP was in that issue and how they could write that uniform civil laws that would not favour any specific religion or caste. Now that task seems to be impossible, at least in near future. So India should be prepared to pay more prices in form crimes originates mainly from caste or religious divide among Indians.
Complain about this comment
Comment no 68 (Reposted)
Neoknat: You have brought some important points on the relevance of the topics users write here.But you should see who started the RITUAL and the VEGETARIANISM debate here.
VEGETARIANISM is quoted FIRST in comment number 7 written by JAY.I also did not write "meaningless rituals" first.
These two topics are written in Comment Number 7.So you have correctly PINPOINT how DIGRESSING started HERE.
When someone chooses to slander the rituals or portray Vegetarianism as meaningless,I responded.So you should get your facts correct when you talk about digression.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nekonat:You are right that I wrote a relatively small para on the 'Honor Killing' in comment number 8.
But since this killing is based on the misuse of the Caste ,I did not want the debate to be ruddered into a direction without knowing the premise of India's Caste system
Also I answered how.I did not start the Vegetarianism or Ritual debate.It all begins in comment number 7.
But you and I agree that the killing in the name of honor is highly reprehensible.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
We have heard a lot of blabbering of Karma and guaranteed direction towards self-destructive interpretation of Hinduism . I am sure we will hear many such irrelevant and long rumblings. Do such people think India should allow caste based social division (that upholds caste-ism among Hindus) and ban inter-caste marriage?
I understand that murder in the name of religion or caste is bad (as such religious fanatics always mention during such debates).
• What such “Hindus” think about inter-caste marriage? GOOD OR BAD (as per THEIR interpretation of Hinduism)?
• DO they think that “real” Hindus should prevent or oppose inter-caste marriage, WITHOUT killing the bride-grooms and uphold the “dignity” of caste system among Hindus?
I am really curious to know how THEY like laws of secular India to be!
OR do they not like India to remain secular and be converted to a Hindu country, as they interpret “Hinduism”?
Then what is the difference between such “Hindus” and Islamic terrorists or other “non-violent” religious fundamentalists or Talibans?
Complain about this comment
Let’s ASSUME that caste based social division is a great thing for the Hindus in India. And inter-caste marriage is a very bad thing, as per “Hindu” mythology and ancient scripts one has read and thinks he understoood it.
So now the question is-
1. Will such people, who support such interpretation of Hinduism, favor legal ban on inter-caste marriage to maintain “purity” of caste structure of Indian Hindu society?
2. Should India constitutionally (in other words, legally) allow each and every religious interpretation of different religions and sub-religions (different interpretation within a single religion) beliefs?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
Comment no 69/58/78( Modified and Reposted):
To the user who is masking comments to keep the controversy of "Rituals" and "Vegetarianism" alive.Another view will reach the audience of this blog as they deserve better.
Comment no 58: Quote "
Correction to comment 57 :"No one is trying to base this country on a caste or religion"
RITUALS
~~~~~
As for rituals and people who have denounced them...There are rituals defined as processes and then importance of Bhakti(Devotion) and Jnana(knowledge) is stressed.Again, I am not asking anyone to follow the rituals,but when they denounce them and call them "unnecessary",I will illustrate another view.
Another post on this will be made available soon.
"Unquote
I have written on RITUALS then.People may/may not follow them but to call them illogical is not quite appropriate.
Complain about this comment
I believe that if an individual adheres to Dharma ,he will not need the
laws of a country to control him in his actions.
Why should a Government bring in a law to enforce inter-caste marriage.As I already said,I did not want India to be a theocracy. Such a move will only spur dissonance.
Instead, keeping caste private,understanding it premise will not lead to the question of unwarranted "inter caste laws" or the despicable "honor killing"
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
It is sad that some parents cowardly prefer to sacrifice their child's happiness to impress the neighbours. Why are the neighbours considered more important than your own daughter! Where will your neighbour and society be when you are a widow? Probably put you on a pyre!
Complain about this comment
I can't see anything honourable in looking down on other castes, a system put in place by the Aryans which came from Persia to control the people living on the other side of the Hindu Kush mountains. The caste system is not a Hindu construct but foreign to India .... if only they knew!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Now EternalIndia is posting same messages with another ID (UtopianIndia)!!!!
Anyway, I am sure that chap will repost same messages again and again to show his “knowledge” about Vivekananda or Hindu marriage and other Hindu ancient scriptures. More he opens his mount, more he exposes himself in this public forum. Anyone want to know the answers for any of those questions, he is constantly raising, can read my comments in that blog of Sautik, “Caste census: Opening a Pandora's box?” : http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/05/so_is_caste_the_complex.html
I do not want to drag that thread here. I now understand that I did not know much about Ramakrishna and Vivekananda despite of my birth in a family which is very close to Belur Math and brought up by a father who is a direct disciple of Swami. Lokeswarananda of Belur Math (head office of Ramakrishna Mission). I understand that people like EternalIndia thinks that Vivekananda did not say or believe anything that he did not mention in his famous Chicago speech!
Just for others who still want evidence (for Vivekananda’s rejection of caste based Hindu society): “While explaining his visionary socialism Vivekananda made an interesting ‘gospel’. He said that the future society would be ruled by the labouring people and that this would first take place in China. In Modern India he said : ‘But there is hope. In the mighty course of time, the Brahmin, and the other higher castes too, are being brought down to the lower status of the surdras and the sudras are being raised to higher ranks” (from Belur Math website link:
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Aldo let me remind you that Caste system is not a custom ,it is clearly quoted in the Vedas.
Now you can take it as a custom and ignore it but i can prove it is not a custom
Complain about this comment
Strange, when Muslim commit this so called 'honour' crime, you will hear no reference whatsoever to religion or to race. Infact, the BBC will often make of point of disassociating it from religion.
Of course, when the people concerned are NOT muslims, then everyone is fair game. Why talk about honour killings in India when it is so rappant in the UK by the Muslim community?
Yes, it is a problem in India but don't make at it is something that is brushed under the carpet for fear of offending a small group like the UK have done.
Complain about this comment
If someone worship black believing that as white and asks everyone else to consider that as "white", then it is the duty of the other people to make him/her aware about reality. We all should be extra careful not to strengthen his/her distorted views for sake of agreeability. Now it is up to that person to accept black as black and white as white. If he does not, then he has every right to live in his own world, provided s/he does not go on preaching the same issue in public.
There are many "religious” people in the world who really believe that Jesus was born from virgin mother Merry or Hindu mythological figures like Karna was born in the womb of virgin Kunti by “blessing” of Sun (the whole reproduction process was completed by mere eye contact) or Kaurabs were indeed 101 siblings from one mother. There many good issues, novel observations (e.g medicinal plants, physical exercise etc), example of ideal statesman and diplomat (Kirshna, Chanakya etc) in almost any society among its mythological incidents. We need to keep our minds open to accept the good part and condemn and/or reject the not-so-good or least-likely-to-be-true part.
In the same way, people do not care much what is written in a book called constitution (although that is important). We mainly care how that is practiced in real life by the institutions and custodians of our secular democracy. Real development and peace depends on the later part, not on what is written in that book, called constitution.
It is an useless argument if caste was practiced among people in ancient time (for whatever reason) and that’s why we should practice it today. It is equally counter-productive argument to say that we will continue to do this or that simply because it is suggested in Hinduism (as per one’s own interpretation of Hindu religion).
In any sense of logic killing of a girl child or honor killing is a highly criminal act and deserves the most severe punishment, irrespective of one’s caste or religion or whatever. If one want to live in a civilized, democratic society s/he must carry out his/her minimum responsibilities to enjoy his/her rights. And that duty MUST NOT dependent on one’s caste or religion in a seculr democratic country like India.
Complain about this comment
Black is Black and White is White...as for argument of making others to know the reality,it is a sham. Reality is that this any religion should not be prejudged upon and its principles commented in an "off hand" manner WITHOUT due study.
No is trying to base this country on a caste of religion.I have talked about India NOT being a theocracy,as,such a system will be misused.But Caste and Religion will prevail despite people trying to misuse it or some other people trying to cast aspersions on it.
No one wants India to be a theocracy and you have NOT proven that Ramakrishna maths with its founders or Swami Vivekananda to call upon CASTE TO BE ABOLISHED.Ideally one should discuss Honor Killings here and not the Rituals or Vegetarianism as you have referred.
Complain about this comment
When someone really want to know the views of Vivekananda on caste system among Hindus and relate that with Hindu religion, then he needs to know what Vivekananda said about that issue.
“Do I (Vivekananda) believe in caste? Caste is a social custom; religion has nothing to do with it; all castes will associate with me.”
http://www.ramakrishna.org/activities/message/weekly_message17.htm
(From Ramakrishna Mission Website)
The whole argument to support caste on the basis of religion was NOT true, at least as per interpretation of Hinduism by Swami Vivekananda.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
One thing is clear.I am not asking people to follow the CASTE SYSTEM just because I support it.Similarly others users should not expect every citizen of India to give up the CASTE SYSTEM because they feel so.
Be it any facet of our life,religion or science,its principle/assertions cannot be challenged without through study
So how can one call CASTE SYSTEM a custom without study of the religion.And how can I call the findings of Albert Einstein false,unless I study his findings and disprove it in a scientific forum ?
If one user is so much interested in disproving the validity of CASTE in religion or calling Rituals "meaningless" or calling Vegetarianism unwanted,then one should become fully erudite,debate this in a group of people who are Savants in the field,know the premise before prejudging.
Complain about this comment
We all know that so-called honor killing is very closely connected to one’s interpretation to religion. To counter that social evil we need to counter such fanatic interpretation of religion by a section of religious followers. They (who murders their own kids in the name of religion and/or honor) never accept that their interpretation is not only wrong from religion point of view but also a crime.
We all know what happens when someone eats a lot of food and does not have the ability to digest it. He makes lot of gas that makes people around him a bit uncomfortable. The same foul smell we can hear/read about religion as well.
Complain about this comment
JAY is quoting Swami Vivekananda now to bolster his view,but he also called.This is fine if the person had not written the below line:
"We have heard a lot of blabbering of Karma"
Lets see the wiki entry for Swami Vivekananda.It says:
"His books (compiled from lectures given around the world) on the four Yogas (Raja Yoga, Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga)"
So if Karma is Blabbering as called,the how can one quote Swami Vivekananda to bolster one's own case.I think it is contradicting
Complain about this comment
And the wiki entry for Swami Vivekananda for previous entry is
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda
But lets not forget ,there have been innumerable philosophers or great men/women ,this country has produced.So we will have to take into account views of Tulsi das,Soor Das,Adi Shankara,Mira Bai,Thyagaraja and so on.Also we have to see what the VEDAS say on the system.
Can one debate all this in the scope of "Honor Killing" . we all condemn it and CASTE SYSTEM IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT DEBATE.So is RITUALS and VEGETARIANISM.Why should digression be professed here?
Complain about this comment
Caste system is not the folly,it is certainly not the nemesis of our society.Our own actions as people,our leaders who shape our nation's future,stand accountable and not the caste system.
Hypothetically,say suddenly by a juggernaut,the caste system were to be destroyed completely..will our society not find new ways of division,then religion will be the culprit.Even if religion were to be defunct,then nationality and it being extinct , we as in people ,will quarrel over gender and race and there is no end.
So the people who committed the honor crime are culpable,not CASTE SYSTEM
Complain about this comment
I went through the links in Belur math website on teachings of Swami Vivekananda
"Here Swamiji established a new, universal pattern of monastic life which adapts ancient monastic ideals to the conditions of modern life, which gives equal importance to personal illumination and social service, and which is open to all men without any distinction of religion, race or caste."
http://www.belurmath.org/swamivivekananda.htm
So,this is true in Hinduism also there is no contradiction here..caste/religion is no bar for Humanity and selfless love.
Swami Vivekananda and Hindu Philosophy :
"In the course of a short life of thirty-nine years (1863-1902), of which only ten were devoted to public activities-and those, too, in the midst of acute physical suffering-he left for posterity his four classics: Jnana-Yoga, Bhakti-Yoga, Karma-Yoga, and Raja-Yoga, all of which are outstanding treatises on Hindu philosophy"
- http://www.ramakrishna.org/sv.htm
So Swami Vivekananda did practice Karma Yoga and he did not disregard Hindu tenets.
I urge anyone in this audience to present evidence where Swami Vivekananda called for "An Abolition of the Caste System".He might have criticized some priests for trying to domineer(i.e a misuse of the system),but did he call for eradicating the caste system?,If yes,please present incriminating evidence from Belur math website.
Complain about this comment
Initially you (EternalIndia, Eternal_India, UtopianIndia) were fighting to prove that Vivekananda was a supporter of caste system, then you modified your statement and started demanding any link that shows Vivekananda’s statement on caste system. When all these conditions are met (and hopefully you accept that), then you raised your latest salvo and introduced Adi Shankar and many other religious preachers into the discussion. This is a typical behavior for you. I know that you will oppose this statement and BBC may hide my comment and then I will re-post it after modification. The show must go on”……
Now you may agree that many behavior and practices of a person depends on HIS/HER personal interpretation of religion. That interpretation can vary widely. I support Vivekananda in this specific issue. It does not mean that I HAVE TO support Vivekananda in each and every issue he raised/supported. I support US government in specific issues and also oppose it in some other issues. The same way I support many aspects of Vedas or other ancient scripts (e.g Ayurveda, yoga etc) but do not support each and every aspect mentioned in those books/novels (e.g mythological figures like Karna was born in the womb of virgin Kunti by “blessing” of Sun (the whole reproduction process was completed by mere eye contact) or Kaurabs were indeed 101 siblings from one mother etc).
We all know that religion is a matter of personal faith and heavily depend on personal interpretation. If that is the case in one religion (in this issue, Hinduism), then we can easily (not for all though) understand how the situation will become when so many religions come into the picture.
We all know that a person who follows humanity and set a very high standard of morality for him/herself, s/he does not need to care about either law or religion. The problem arises when someone does not understand what humanity and morality is or do not follow that (for whatever reason). Then we need to set few pre-determined norms (“law”) that each and every person in a country must obey. And its interpretation does not depend on individuals but a group of well-trained people, we call them “judges”.
It will be very foolish to ignore that honor killing is the result of one’s personal interpretation of religion and his/her “duties” towards that. Sometimes they think that it is their religious duty to follow and force others to follow the same interpretation of religion. Many people put religion ahead of country or anything else. And they can go to any extent to uphold the way they think about religion (that includes caste as well, for Hindus). Now they may step on other people’s (legal) rights while trying to follow their own interpretation of religion (that includes honor killing). Here comes the role of laws in a secular democracy. Founding fathers of our nation agreed on a basic set of norms which is written in a book form, called constitution. Now we all need to obey that and differences in opinion need to be settled by few experts (courts and judges). No court of law ever support honor killing. The legal part is settled. Laws of India must not discriminate based on caste (at least theoretically), irrespectively of one’s interpretation of caste (good or bad for society).
Now the social part. This issue of killing couples when parents/relatives think that their “honor” was diminished due to the marriage between people belonging to two un-equal caste or religion. Now it becomes the duty of our secular government to address that part by aggressively undertaking mass campaign against such distorted ideas about religion.
Complain about this comment
No doubt the sometimes the comments are more interesting than the blog. I feel terribly sorry for few people in this blog who are educated (as they read BBC) and still live in the past. Any logical person will agree that we cannot separate caste system from honor killing as the murder is happening just because of inter-caste marriage.
Caste system is a folly and should be abolished from all societies.
I don’t care what Gita said or what is practiced during Vedas or what is preached by Vivekananda. Being raised in India I have seen several misuse and misinterpretations of caste system which I cannot support being a human being. If you have a proper analytical brain and can feel empathy for other human being you cannot support Caste System.
Complain about this comment
EternalIndia (alis Eternal_India, UtopianIndia), asked, “I urge anyone in this audience to present evidence where Swami Vivekananda called for "An Abolition of the Caste System".He might have criticized some priests for trying to domineer(i.e a misuse of the system),but did he call for eradicating the caste system?,If yes,please present incriminating evidence from Belur math website.
Let anyone other than me or EI/UI decide what was Swami Vivekannanda’s view on Hindu caste system-
Excerpts from “Great Thinkers on Swami Vivekananda”:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
(Published by Ramakrishna Mission, Belur Math)
If the link does not work, then Google “Great Thinkers on Swami Vivekananda” and click on the www.belurmath.org link.
"Swami Vivekananda’s great message was that all the low caste people should be taken as our brethren. Not only the right hand of the fellowship should be extended to them, but they should be embraced as a brother embraces his fellow-brother". Page-33-34
"The aim of Swami Vivekananda was not only to obliterate all distinctions of caste, but also to uplift the daridra Nàràyana".- page-51
"Vivekananda had always desired to change the situation in India—the powerful and yet dependent country, fettered by the will of British colonialists, hard vestiges of the centuries-old history and rigid caste conventions and also disintegrated, oppressed and not yet strong to rebel".- page-59
"He was a sworn enemy of what we now call in India Casteism. Untouchability was something which he abhorred both as a sannyàsin and as a lay Hindu. He coined the word which is very commonly used in our Indian English—‘don’t touchism". Page-82
Swami Vivekananda and many other world renowned religious leaders eat non-veg:
"Swami Vivekananda continued eating fish even after he had become a monk or even that the Buddhist spiritual leader the Dalai Lama is a non-vegetarian": http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/wih/
Such facts indicate that there is no common interpretation of Hindu religion. Many people, many thinkers and also many fanatics and religious bigots interpret the same religion in a many and widely different ways. To EI/UI I am an atheist while I consider myself a hardcore Hindu. Yet I am totally against caste system among Hindus. I think caste system NEVER offered ANY social benefit to Hindus, EVER and is a major social evil for Hindu society today. Many of the conversion (from Hinduism to other religion) is directly related to this evil caste system. I also oppose even ideological opposition, leave alone murder or physical torture, against inter-caste marriage which is mainly responsible for honour killing among Hindus in India and abroad.
Complain about this comment
Jay is deriving the conclusion that Swami Vivekananda called for an Abolition of CASTE.He certainly called for its Misuse to be stopped.
I a way JAY is jumping to the conclusion that such great thinkers "CALLED FOR THE CASTE SYSTEM TO BE ABOLISHED"
Yes they spoke against zamindars and landlords using this system for their own pecuniary benefit.
Yes when Swami Vivekananda says one irrespective of CASTE ,Indians are BROTHERS and SISTERS its true.
THIS DOES NOT PROVE THAT THESE GREAT THINKERS CALLED FOR AN ABOLITION OF CASTE SYSTEM
"He was a sworn enemy of what we now call in India Casteism. Untouchability was something which he abhorred both as a sannyàsin and as a lay Hindu. He coined the word which is very commonly used in our Indian English—‘don’t touchism". Page-82"
- THIS IS NOT SPEECH OF SWAMI VIVEKANANDA BUT AN EXCERPT ABOUT A PERSON WRITTEN BY ANOTHER PERSON.How does this excerpt prove that he called for ABOLITION OF THE PRIMORDIAL CASTE SYSTEM?
"Vivekananda had always desired to change the situation in India—the powerful and yet dependent country, fettered by the will of British colonialists, hard vestiges of the centuries-old history and rigid caste conventions and also disintegrated, oppressed and not yet strong to rebel".- page-59
- THIS IS NOT SPEECH OF SWAMI VIVEKANANDA BUT AN EXCERPT ABOUT A PERSON WRITTEN BY ANOTHER PERSON.How does this excerpt prove that he called for ABOLITION OF THE PRIMORDIAL CASTE SYSTEM?
Swami Vivekananda and many other world renowned religious leaders eat non-veg:
"Swami Vivekananda continued eating fish even after he had become a monk or even that the Buddhist spiritual leader the Dalai Lama is a non-vegetarian": http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/wih/
- I DON'T WANT TO COMMENT ON SWAMI VIVEKANANDA ON HIS FISH EATING.I DON'T KNOW THIS.BUT FACT IS,HINDUISM CONSIDERS ALL LIFE FORMS TO BE SACRED AND STATES TO AVOID CONSUMPTION OF MEAT.
More over if Swami Vivekananda started eating fish,that does not mean Indians should give up Vegetarianism as quoted in the TENETS.Did Swami Vivekananda eat beef also? I don't think he would ever do that and support it with an unproven claim by saying ancient Indians were doing so.
Aside to this point,I demonstrated in comment number 33,How Meat consumption is contributing to World Hunger.I am not asking anyone to swerve towards Vegetarianism but to say its that "Vegetarianism" is unneeded, is unfair and presumptuous.
India has lived for thousands of years with Vegetarianism and guess what so many animals have escaped slaughter houses in the period.
When JAY has chosen to quote Swami Vivekananda again and again,which is fine,I ask him what is his view on Karma.Since he had rejected the notion of Karma ,how can he quote Swami Vivekananda now?
Complain about this comment
"To EI/UI I am an atheist while I consider myself a hardcore Hindu. "
-Not very sure on this.Atheism an opinion and its fine.
If a person is Atheist he repudiates GOD and does not believe in GOD at all.
Then how come one quote Swami Vivekananda to justify NON-VEG food
or CASTE when these men were Spiritual thinkers/leaders.How can one borrow points from Ramakrishna math , a prominent spiritual institution.
get us the SPEECH AND SENTENCES where Swami Vivekananda or Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa called openly for the Caste system as unwanted and to be repudiated or abolished.
It's your interpretation to say that meat eating is ok.It verbatim from scriptures to say that meat eating is not encouraged,this is not my opinion.
It's your interpretation to say that CASTE is unnecessary.It verbatim from scriptures which defines CASTE SYSTEM.
It's your interpretation to say that RITUALS is unnecessary.It verbatim from scriptures which defines RITUALS as processes for ceremonies,full with meaning.It also stresses on the importance of devotion than only mechanically doing the steps in rituals.
How can one sanctimoniously say that we are interpreting and they ,themselves are not doing so.
Complain about this comment
Honor killing not sanctioned by religion or caste.Dowry is not sanctioned by religion or caste.Forced 'Sati' is not sanctioned by religion or caste.Female infanticide/foeticide is not sanctioned by religion or caste.How can some people blame religion for all these,for all the social malaises WE CREATED.
And by the way,who come back and say all religion is false and violence is deplorable and vegetarianism is unnecessary custom.I agree violence is deplorable,but how do we explain killing or slaughtering animals.If killing a human is a felony,why not killing an animal okay.Animal feels no pain is it?
So I urge people here to respect vegetarianism even if they do not follow it, respect Religion and Caste even if they do not believe in it.No one is forcing them to divest their opinion and embrace tenets of this religion.All that is respect the religion or caste system if one follows it or not.
Complain about this comment
Is the English so harrd to understand?
"The aim of Swami Vivekananda was not only to obliterate all distinctions of caste, but also to uplift the daridra Nàràyana".- page-51
Complain about this comment
Now EI/UI got a new excuse to deviate from the topic and introduce a new diversion. WE ARE NOT DISCUSSINNG “KARMA” here. It is suffice to say that once Sautik start an issue that relates to “karma”, I can give my opinion and listen some ur views on Karma.
Complain about this comment
"Is the English so harrd to understand? "The aim of Swami Vivekananda was not only to obliterate all distinctions of caste, but also to uplift the daridra Nàràyana".- page-51"
English is easy to understand for me,not sure about others.
-This is a passive statement made by SOMEONE ELSE,NOT Swami Vivekananda.
Complain about this comment
It is a totally different issue of not eating meat for religious reason and for many other reasons (like taste, food habit, ecology, resource used to produce meat, global hunger and meat consumption, empathy towards animals etc. I am talking about NOT EATING MEAT (including BEEF) because of so-called restriction according to one’s interpretation of Hindu religion.
Complain about this comment
I NEVER said ALL rituals are unnecessary. I said many rituals were not part of actual religion. Many rituals are just superstitions and need to be abolished or reformed.
Complain about this comment
It is a totally wrong statement when you (EI/UI) say, “India has lived for thousands of years with Vegetarianism”. Either you do not know what is India or conveniently forgetting food habits of Indians, more importantly, ancient Indians.
Complain about this comment
"Now EI/UI got a new excuse to deviate from the topic and introduce a new diversion. WE ARE NOT DISCUSSINNG “KARMA” here. It is suffice to say that once Sautik start an issue that relates to “karma”, I can give my opinion and listen some ur views on Karma.
"
- Jay introduced RITUALS in comment no 7 and then called CASTE caste system as unwanted .Then I responded with Karma.
- Jay talked about vegetarianism and sanctimonious wrote on it as "If an Indian kid grows up with a vegetarian diet (as imposed by his/her guardians) s/he will show a high tendency to invoke many hypothetical and illogical reasons to justify that behavior."
Then I came back and justified Vegetarianism
- Jay brought the issue of Rituals and wrote in comment no 7 as
"In India many people, if not majority, follow some meaningless rituals in the name of "tradition"."
Then I defended rituals
I am not digressing or manufacturing excuses here , why did JAY divert from Honor killings to write on these issues?
Complain about this comment
Lets ask EI/UI (one by one):
1. DO you believe that Karna was born in the womb of virgin Kunti by “blessing” of Sun (the whole reproduction process was completed by mere eye contact) AND Kaurabs were indeed 101 siblings from one mother etc). All these were mentioned in your “scripts”.
No more lengthy lectures, just "Yes" or "No' Answer.
Complain about this comment
"I NEVER said ALL rituals are unnecessary. I said many rituals were not part of actual religion. Many rituals are just superstitions and need to be abolished or reformed."
Please tell us which rituals you consider as unnecessary or "tradition" and which you consider as necessary.
Maximum number of rituals are from Shastras and some "traditions" as you say are called sampradayas as kept by elders of family.They do not contravene the Shastras mostly.But there are some bad apple traditions.
As an example,Dowry was and has been a Tradition,but it is NEVER quoted anywhere in the scriptures.It is the tradition,which needs to be abolished as it has no religious backing but is infact being blamed on the religion
Complain about this comment
comrade biswas finds it overwhelming that the one person would get killed every month in a hindu nation of 1.2 billion!!!!!!!!!!!
does comrade know that communists kill far far more than that? commisar biswas is not appalled by that? i think not.
Complain about this comment
1. DO you believe that Karna was born in the womb of virgin Kunti by “blessing” of Sun (the whole reproduction process was completed by mere eye contact) AND Kaurabs were indeed 101 siblings from one mother etc). All these were mentioned in your “scripts”.
- I will answer in YES OR NO.But before thats,why are going away from Swami Vivekananda.Why are you going away from Rituals or Vegetarianism.Lets finish this and move to "Kunti and Karnas and Kauravas"
I know why you are starting this new topic of Kunti...In a way you are taking refuge in Mythology to start to ridicule its stories and prove that you are more "logical" than us and leaving all the topics you alluded/referred to from rituals to vegetarianism to Swami Vivekananda.. UNFINISHED.
Complain about this comment
"It is a totally wrong statement when you (EI/UI) say, “India has lived for thousands of years with Vegetarianism”. Either you do not know what is India or conveniently forgetting food habits of Indians, more importantly, ancient Indians."
- Well I did not say every person lived with Vegetarianism.I said India has lived with Vegetarianism.Which means a great section of the population which was following Dharma and the scriptures did not eat meat there is nothing unfashionable or illogical in it.You are again misinterpreting
This country considered by its religion,all life forms as sacred.
Many animals escaped slaughter houses.
India is one country I know since primordial time which had Vegetarianism.It is a Fact.
Complain about this comment
@1 So comfortable to accept superstitious hogwash as eternally decreed when you're a privileged Western male who will never endure a hundredth of the deprivation these women must deal with routinely. And no religion justifies them losing their lives. Their are human rights that supersede all such nonsense. The first, quite simply, is to live! If you're OK with women being murdered, go to India and get a sex change. Get back to us with your opinion then!
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
"It is a totally different issue of not eating meat for religious reason and for many other reasons (like taste, food habit, ecology, resource used to produce meat, global hunger and meat consumption, empathy towards animals etc. I am talking about NOT EATING MEAT (including BEEF) because of so-called restriction according to one’s interpretation of Hindu religion."
- I did not introduce the "totally different issue" of Vegetarianism in this debate.Your comment number 7 talks about it.
- I did not introduce "beef" in the CASTE CENSUS blog which had no relevance to the topic,but you did to bolster your claims
I think we should be discussing Honor Killings and not allude to other issues
Complain about this comment
EI/UI said, “I said India has lived with Vegetarianism. Which means a great section of the population which was following Dharma and the scriptures did not eat meat there is nothing unfashionable or illogical in it. You are again misinterpreting.”
That is NOT true. Indian food habits include meat and fish for a vast majority of population. Bengalis eat meat and fish since pre-historic times and they are part of India since long. Majority, if not all, of tribes (oldest inhabitants of India) eat non-veg. Even the Aryans whom we think developed Hinduism used to eat meat, including beef.
“But experts say the book only adds to existing evidence that beef was widely eaten in India hundreds of years ago.”
Check the BBC report for a short reference, "Beef book sparks Hindu protest": http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1482614.stm.
Complain about this comment
"Indian food habits include meat and fish for a vast majority of population. Bengalis eat meat and fish since pre-historic times and they are part of India since long. Majority, if not all, of tribes (oldest inhabitants of India) eat non-veg. Even the Aryans whom we think developed Hinduism used to eat meat, including beef. "
THE EXACT ORIGIN AND DATE WHEN HINDUISM ORIGINATED IS NOT YET KNOWN BY SCIENTISTS AND HISTORIANS THAN A ROUGH ASSUMPTION.
So do you know the FOOD HABITS THEN?
Please don't digress to Aryan Dravidian debate.It is a theory,not proof.There is a new theory floating around now that the so called "Aryans" never reached India and stopped with Persia.
You beef book link is unsubstantiated and not a proof.It is a manufactured controversy.Such dissertations are no proof to say beef was eaten in India.
There was meat eating but it was not predominant.And when you can allude to such dissertations,I can allude to my scriptures.
It clearly asks for avoidance of meat.And yes then it a valid proof in a forum.
Complain about this comment
Also you are quoting Fish eating in Bengal.I don't doubt-it .In fact there is a story in PeriaPuranam (A set of tales about Shaivaite saints) where a fisherman was blessed.
But Hindu scriptures say that meat and non-veg food should be avoided.You cannot deny this.And people were more religious , 3000 years ago and were eating much less meat than they do now.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
I do support Vivekananda’s view that caste system is just a RITUAL, NOT part of any religion. This view is supported by Vivekananda as well. That’s why I talked about ritual.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I did NOT criticize Vegetarianism. Everyone can have their personal choice of food. I just said that ancient Hindus USED TO EAT BEEF and Indian food habit include non-veg since ages.
As I said before (post#119)- There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE not to eat meat or beef for many other reasons (like taste, food habit, ecology, resource used to produce meat, global hunger and meat consumption, empathy towards animals etc) and due to religious reason. I am against any perception or interpretation that Hindu religion forbids non-veg (including beef) eating.
DO not confuse yourself and others and put your words in my mouth. The problem is that you do not read the post and start writing your views, again and again. Read first, understand and then write whatever you have to say.
Complain about this comment
EI/UI said, "I can do a Phd in some university tomorrow to choose 'beef eating' as topic and guess what,if that university is funded by some special interest groups,will readily approve me a stipend also".
I did not know that!!!! That BBC story (Beef book sparks Hindu protest": http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1482614.stm) NOT ONLY quotes from Dr Jha, but also from other experts. BBC is a reputed news media since long and there is a reason for that.
You can surely do a PhD on Hinduism (as you interpret it) and if you publish your story in a reputed journal or write a news item in BBC, I'll surely accept that as an authentic information.
BTW, the same logic can go to any book, whether it is written by Dr Jha or ancient Indian men. Any special interest group or a religious fanatic can interpret any religion in his/her own way. That does not mean that specific religion is like that.
Anyone can consider “Harry Potter” fantasies as holy books after few centuries. But that does not mean “Harry Potter” is indeed a religious or Holy book!
Complain about this comment
EI/UI said, “This is a passive statement made by SOMEONE ELSE,NOT Swami Vivekananda”. The only direct statement of Vivekananda, I am aware of, is from his very short lecture in Chicago. In 1890s, there was not tape recorder or internet or TV that we will get live coverage and instant voice recording or direct statement of Vivekananda. All we get is from his direct disciples and other followers/researchers. I do consider it to be authentic if Ramakrishna Mission (or Belur Math) authenticate and publishes any statement about Vivekananda.
The statement, “The aim of Swami Vivekananda was not only to obliterate all distinctions of caste, but also to uplift the daridra Nàràyana (poor people)” is given by no other than eminent chemist and founder of Bengal Chemicals, Dr P C Roy (PRAFULLA CHANDRA RAY) and it has been published in website of Belur Math (just goggle “Great Thinkers on Swami Vivekananda” and click on second link of PDF stating Part-3 : Great Thinkers on Vivekananda - ch 2 Swami Vivekananda).
I have no reason to doubt its authenticity.
Then RATNAMUTHU SUGATHAN quoted as saying, “ It was he (Vivekananda) who
first vociferously declared the impossibility of getting freedom without ERADICATING CASTEISM, poverty and illiteracy among the masses”- Same document, page-61.
“On his way to Kerala Vivekananda met Dr Palpu, who narrated to the Swami about Kerala’s inhuman casteism, perpetual exploitation and insult of the lower class Hindus by their upper class counterparts. Learning this entire, the Swami told Dr Palpu, “Find out a good sannyàsin within the country and community you belong to, and try to unite the lower class people around him and work for their uplift. Fight against untouchability, the lower class people has to undertake this task. None will come out to save the exploited and the suppressed. They have to do it for themselves”. (page-62).
“He (Vivekananda) was a sworn enemy of what we now call in India Casteism. Untouchability was something which he abhorred both as a sannyàsin and as a lay Hindu.”- as quoted by famous Bengali literature pundit Acharya SUNITI KUMAR CHATTERJI (page-81).
In Modern India HE (VIVEKANANDA) SAID : ‘But there is hope. In the mighty course of time, the Brahmin, and the other higher castes too, are being brought down to the lower status of the sudras and the sudras are being raised to higher ranks”. (page-33-34).
Complain about this comment
It is simply utter your fabrication when you say, "But Hindu scriptures say that meat and non-veg food should be avoided. You cannot deny this".
Of course I deny that. Read below before you start commenting.
-------------------------
Exerpt from “The HINDU”: Tuesday, August 14, 2001;
by Prof. RAM PUNIYANI, A member of EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai
A survey of ancient Indian scriptures, especially the Vedas, shows that amongst the nomadic, pastoral Aryans who settled here, animal sacrifice was a dominant feature till the emergence of settled agriculture. Cattle were the major property during this phase and they offered the same to propitiate the gods. Wealth was equated with the ownership of the cattle.
Many gods such as Indra and Agni are described as having special preferences for different types of flesh - Indra had weakness for bull's meat and Agni for bull's and cow's. It is recorded that the Maruts and the Asvins were also offered cows. In the Vedas there is a mention of around 250 animals out of which at least 50 were supposed to be fit for sacrifice and consumption. In the Mahabharata there is a mention of a king named Rantideva who achieved great fame by distributing foodgrains and beef to Brahmins. Taittiriya Brahman categorically tells us: `Verily the cow is food' (atho annam via gauh) and Yajnavalkya's insistence on eating the tender (amsala) flesh of the cow is well known. Even later Brahminical texts provide the evidence for eating beef. Even Manusmriti did not prohibit the consumption of beef.
As a medicine:
In therapeutic section of Charak Samhita (pages 86-87) the flesh of cow is prescribed as a medicine for various diseases. It is also prescribed for making soup. It is emphatically advised as a cure for irregular fever, consumption, and emaciation. The fat of the cow is recommended for debility and rheumatism.
Complain about this comment
Jay ,let me prove how your news article are fully disputable,and cannot be considered veracity unless unequivocally proven:
I can do a Phd in some university tomorrow to choose 'beef eating' as topic and guess what,if that university is funded by some special interest groups,will readily approve me a stipend also.
And then I publish that dissertation to be quoted profusely in this blog.And it can get reported in the media ,Which means even BBC can publish it in a news article.
That however,does not make such theories a proof
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
And to the previous comment the BBC article that supports Vegetarianism to help World Hunger is titled: "Think before you carve" (BBC ARTICLE)
and the URL is http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ethicalman/2009/12/think_before_you_carve.html
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
"Then RATNAMUTHU SUGATHAN quoted as saying, “ It was he (Vivekananda) who
first vociferously declared the impossibility of getting freedom without ERADICATING CASTEISM, poverty and illiteracy among the masses”- Same document, page-61."
-YOU ARE AGAIN QUOTING SOME OTHER SOURCE AND AN OPINION EVINCED.THIS IS NOT PROOF
YOU WILL HAVE TO GET A SPEECH OF SWAMI VIVEKANANDA OR RAMAKRISHNA PARAMAHAMSA,where he called for the Caste System to be "eliminated/abolished/repudiated" from the Indian Landscape and Mindscape.
You have not Proven this so far in this debate.
Complain about this comment
" It is simply utter your fabrication when you say, "But Hindu scriptures say that meat and non-veg food should be avoided. You cannot deny this". "
JAY - I am trying to keep this debate Civilized.There is difference of opinion,not fabrication.
Complain about this comment
The question is not who is Prof. RAM PUNIYANI! The question here is also not whether Aryans or Dravidians developed Hinduism.
The question, in this case, is about beef eating by Hindus and mention of beef eating in ancient Hindu scripts. Do you deny the facts he mentioned there?
Complain about this comment
"Anyone can consider “Harry Potter” fantasies as holy books after few centuries. But that does not mean “Harry Potter” is indeed a religious or Holy book!"
Well then if you consider Ramayana and Mahabharata tales like that of Harry potter why did you quote Vivekananda? If you call yourself an atheist then how can you call yourself a Hindu also ?
Complain about this comment
Why are you posting irreverent items!!!! "And to the previous comment the BBC article that supports Vegetarianism to help World Hunger is titled: "Think before you carve" (BBC ARTICLE)". WE ARE NOT TALKING IF BEEF EATING IS GOOD for world agriculture or nature, we are asserting if beef eating is prohibited as per Hindu religion!
Complain about this comment
"I did NOT criticize Vegetarianism. Everyone can have their personal choice of food. I just said that ancient Hindus USED TO EAT BEEF and Indian food habit include non-veg since ages."
-This is absolutely UNPROVEN and the dissertation of Jha is not tantamount to evidence.If you can allude to such treatise, I can refer Ramayana and Mahabharata.
It is not Harry Potter.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
Why are you posting irrelevant items!!!! "And to the previous comment the BBC article that supports Vegetarianism to help World Hunger is titled: "Think before you carve" (BBC ARTICLE)". WE ARE NOT TALKING IF BEEF EATING IS GOOD for world agriculture or nature, we are asserting IF BEEF EATING IS PROHIBITED AS PER HINDU RELIGION!
Complain about this comment
YES, that IS fabrication of yours when you say, "when you say, "But Hindu scriptures say that meat and non-veg food should be avoided. You cannot deny this". YES I DO DENY THAT.
There are ample proof (as any sensible person will consider) that Hindu ancient scripts and even Gods do eat beef and other non-veg. can you deny the following facts mentioned in "The Hindu" news report?
Exerpt from “The HINDU”: Tuesday, August 14, 2001;
by Prof. RAM PUNIYANI, A member of EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai
A survey of ancient Indian scriptures, especially the Vedas, shows that amongst the nomadic, pastoral Aryans who settled here, animal sacrifice was a dominant feature till the emergence of settled agriculture. Cattle were the major property during this phase and they offered the same to propitiate the gods. Wealth was equated with the ownership of the cattle.
Many gods such as Indra and Agni are described as having special preferences for different types of flesh - Indra had weakness for bull's meat and Agni for bull's and cow's. It is recorded that the Maruts and the Asvins were also offered cows. In the Vedas there is a mention of around 250 animals out of which at least 50 were supposed to be fit for sacrifice and consumption. In the Mahabharata there is a mention of a king named Rantideva who achieved great fame by distributing foodgrains and beef to Brahmins. Taittiriya Brahman categorically tells us: `Verily the cow is food' (atho annam via gauh) and Yajnavalkya's insistence on eating the tender (amsala) flesh of the cow is well known. Even later Brahminical texts provide the evidence for eating beef. Even Manusmriti did not prohibit the consumption of beef.
As a medicine:
In therapeutic section of Charak Samhita (pages 86-87) the flesh of cow is prescribed as a medicine for various diseases. It is also prescribed for making soup. It is emphatically advised as a cure for irregular fever, consumption, and emaciation. The fat of the cow is recommended for debility and rheumatism.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
To you it may not be "Harry Potter". But to me many ancient books are nothing more than harry potter.
Complain about this comment
1.Do you think slaughter of animals to be okay - YES (as meant for consumption as food).
2.Do you think that Non-Vegetarianism/Meat Consumption is contributing to Global World Hunger - YES (for poorer countries that do not produce enough food grain for its people) and NO (for those countries that produce enough food grain to feed its citizens and animals).
BUT WE ARE NOT, I repeat- NOT, talking about beef eating or non-veg eating for ANY other reason, but ONLY from religious angle. Is that so difficult to understand?
Complain about this comment
“He (Vivekananda) was a sworn enemy of what we now call in India Casteism. Untouchability was something which he abhorred both as a sannyàsin and as a lay Hindu.”- as quoted by famous Bengali literature pundit Acharya SUNITI KUMAR CHATTERJI (page-81).
- THIS IS VIEW OF THE BENGALI PUNDIT that Swami Vivekananda felt so.
You will have to get a speech of Swami Vivekananda himself to prove.
Complain about this comment
BUT WE ARE NOT, I repeat- NOT, talking about beef eating or non-veg eating for ANY other reason, but ONLY from religious angle. Is that so difficult to understand?
Complain about this comment
" Why are you posting irrelevant items!!!! "And to the previous comment the BBC article that supports Vegetarianism to help World Hunger is titled: "Think before you carve" (BBC ARTICLE)". WE ARE NOT TALKING IF BEEF EATING IS GOOD for world agriculture or nature, we are asserting IF BEEF EATING IS PROHIBITED AS PER HINDU RELIGION!"
- YOU started VEGETARIANISM DEBATE not be in comment no 7.This is relevant to you thus.
Complain about this comment
So you are hell bent to prove that cow urine, stool is great for human use. Oh dear, oh dear… we are NOT discussing how great Cow urine or cow dung is OR how bad non-veg eating can be for global hunger……. WE ARE DISCUSSING if beef eating is banned in Hindusism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Complain about this comment
"So you are hell bent to prove that cow urine, stool is great for human use. Oh dear, oh dear… we are NOT discussing how great Cow urine or cow dung is OR how bad non-veg eating can be for global hunger……. WE ARE DISCUSSING if beef eating is banned "
- well that was an example to prove that Shastras are not Supersition and we revere the Cow.Krishna is called Go-pala as he was the protector of cows.
There are so many instances when Cows are revered and it is quoted in the scriptures,not custom.
Oh dear Oh dear would you know that than claiming that Jha wrote a dissertation and we all should accept that!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Complain about this comment
You have written about cow meat.Let me give you what is quoted in Shastras on Cows.It may seem a bit funny but i will also refer to the US Patents.
Shastras say that a new born/the nursing mother is to be fed with a wee bit amount of cow urine called 'Pancha kavya'.This practice is still present among many modern,educated and rural families in India.
Cow's urine is one component of the Panchgavya Amrit (Five Cow Nectar). "Panchgavya" is said to cure major diseases and is made up of five cow products, viz. milk, curd, ghee, urine and dung. It plays a major part in Hindu practices and is used in Yajur Veda for Ark as a medicine
-WITHOUT the US PATENTS , I know many would have dismissed this as SUPERSTITION.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Urine
################################
do read the lines "US Patent #6410059): Cow urine distillate in a specific amount is scientifically proven [6] to enhance the anti-microbial effects of antibiotic and antifungal agents. (US patent# 6410059 has been granted to Indian scientists for the invention on June 25, 2002) [6]"
there a list of 4 PATENTS do read in the site.
Ancient India has great strides in medical science and Ayurveda relies on eradicating a disease from its root than only alleviation.
So Ancient Indians and Majority of Indians today revere the COW.If you claim that people ate BEEF in Ancient India,you will have to prove it unequivocally.Not theories pr what some PHD people "believe"
I presented Patents.That is SOLID EVIDENCE.
Complain about this comment
In my post#7 I said, “If an Indian kid grows up with a vegetarian diet (as imposed by his/her guardians) s/he will show a high tendency to invoke many hypothetical and illogical reasons to justify that behaviour. It is not that everyone must eat meat or other non-veg but the reasons they site are generally very vague”.
I think you too follow that pattern of behaviour. Do you not eat beef or non-veg to solve global or Indian hunger problem? Do you agree that beef eating is allowed in Hinduism BUT you do not eat beef or non-veg ONLY due to solve global hunger and to use cow urine as medicine?
Complain about this comment
"To you it may not be "Harry Potter". But to me many ancient books are nothing more than harry potter."
-YOUR OPINION as you call yourself a Atheist and also a Hindu which i find contradicting
India is a Spiritual Nation and is renowned to be thus.We do not consider our scriptures HARRY POTTER.
Complain about this comment
That cow urine thing is NOT SOLID EVIDENCE to prove that beef eating is banned in Hindusism.
Do you deny any of the info presented in "The Hindu" report? If yes, what is your proof to do that?
Again I am posting:
A survey of ancient Indian scriptures, especially the Vedas, shows that amongst the nomadic, pastoral Aryans who settled here, animal sacrifice was a dominant feature till the emergence of settled agriculture. Cattle were the major property during this phase and they offered the same to propitiate the gods. Wealth was equated with the ownership of the cattle.
Many gods such as Indra and Agni are described as having special preferences for different types of flesh - Indra had weakness for bull's meat and Agni for bull's and cow's. It is recorded that the Maruts and the Asvins were also offered cows. In the Vedas there is a mention of around 250 animals out of which at least 50 were supposed to be fit for sacrifice and consumption. In the Mahabharata there is a mention of a king named Rantideva who achieved great fame by distributing foodgrains and beef to Brahmins. Taittiriya Brahman categorically tells us: `Verily the cow is food' (atho annam via gauh) and Yajnavalkya's insistence on eating the tender (amsala) flesh of the cow is well known. Even later Brahminical texts provide the evidence for eating beef. Even Manusmriti did not prohibit the consumption of beef.
As a medicine:
In therapeutic section of Charak Samhita (pages 86-87) the flesh of cow is prescribed as a medicine for various diseases. It is also prescribed for making soup. It is emphatically advised as a cure for irregular fever, consumption, and emaciation. The fat of the cow is recommended for debility and rheumatism.
Complain about this comment
Is Vivekananda issue settled for you?
OR do you still need "direct" evidence that Vivekananda wanted to ABOLISH caste system among Hindus?
Complain about this comment
"Exerpt from “The HINDU”: Tuesday, August 14, 2001;
by Prof. RAM PUNIYANI, A member of EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai "
Who is Prof. RAM PUNIYANI ? Just because this person thinks that Aryans "settled" in India , I and 1.2 billion Indians need not believe it.
First you will have to prove that Aryan Dravidian "theory" is not just a theory .If you succeed in this then you can advance your further derived assumptions
There is a Neo Aryan theory ,for your information that says that Aryans never reached India.What do you have to say about that.
Why don't you discuss Honor Killings.Why digress to all these topics
Complain about this comment
" Is Vivekananda issue settled for you?
OR do you still need "direct" evidence that Vivekananda wanted to ABOLISH caste system among Hindus?"
Quoting others does not settle the issue.You complaining and masking my comments does not settle the issue.If you prove you points I have no hesitation in accepting you as right.
I urge you to let my comments be in site and I will also not complain about your comments.Let fairness prevail and avoid bashing each other.
Complain about this comment
You have your own idea about India which is totally different than what I know about that country. You can consider any book as holy. But that does not mean everyone else has to do that.
I do not consider myself an atheist. I told that people like you may think me as an atheist but I consider myself a hardcore Hindu.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
Hahhh... So you were complaining about my comments to hide it? Did that stratagy work?
You said: "I will also not complain about your comments".
Complain about this comment
I hope you read Charak Sanhita. So what do you think, “In therapeutic section of CHARAK SAMHITA (PAGES 86-87) the flesh of cow is prescribed as a medicine for various diseases. It is also prescribed for making soup. It is emphatically advised as a cure for irregular fever, consumption, and emaciation. The fat of the cow is recommended for debility and rheumatism.
Complain about this comment
"You have your own idea about India which is totally different than what I know about that country. You can consider any book as holy. But that does not mean everyone else has to do that. "
- I am not asking you to consider these books as HOLY,but don't ask us to think thats CASTE is waste or BEEF eating was true.If I and the majority of country men follow the Hindu religion and believe in in tenets ,you can call it "our own" idea of India.And you also have "your own" Idea of India.Let it be so.
Please don't tell us to believe that our holy books are HARRY POTTER.Thats overboard.
Complain about this comment
Hahhh... So you were complaining about my comments to hide it? Did that stratagy work?
You said: "I will also not complain about your comments". -
HA HA- I complained about your comments when you used expletives like "idiots" or "fanatics" or "bin laden" .But I know you have complained on points that contravene to your views.
Please don't present to be the most innocuous ,artless person here
Complain about this comment
"I hope you read Charak Sanhita. So what do you think, “In therapeutic section of CHARAK SAMHITA (PAGES 86-87) the flesh of cow is prescribed as a medicine for various diseases. It is also prescribed for making soup. It is emphatically advised as a cure for irregular fever, consumption, and emaciation. The fat of the cow is recommended for debility and rheumatism."
- NOT PAGES ,Verse numbers and type the verses in English
Do not want translations and opinions
Complain about this comment
"WE ARE NOT TALKING IF BEEF EATING IS GOOD for world agriculture or nature"
- WE RE NOT TALKING IF MEAT EATING IS GOOD for world agriculture or nature AS YOU started this comment number 7 .Hope that helps
Complain about this comment
So you think all the statements of those eminent people and Belur Math publication is not authentic enough, so far Swami Vevakannda is concerned?
Do you know who wrote the Vedas and at what time? Can you give us any direct quote from those people that they did not eat beef or any other non-veg?
Can you or anyone prove that Bhagwat Gita was actually narrated by Krishna to Arjun? Can you present any evidence on that regard?
Can you prove that an unmarried women can get pregnant by mere eye contact with a distant God (Sun) and give birth to a boy?
These are more hypothetical than Vivekananda’s rejection of caste system. If anyone is determined and create proper condition (both physical and mental) anyone can see God, as Munna Bahi saw Mahatma Gandhi in “Lage raho Munna Bhai”. It is all “chemical locha”. Such people need medical help, not non-productive discussion in BBC web site.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
You can "prove" anything (you believe), as YOU think. That's why many people in this forum do NOT agree with you and have harsh comments about you. Just tell me another member (other than 3 avatars of Eternal India) who opposed/contradicted my views?
Complain about this comment
"So you think all the statements of those eminent people and Belur Math publication is not authentic enough, so far Swami Vevakannda is concerned?
"
- IF YOU SAY THAT PERSON X DENOUNCED A THING,THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO PROVE IT BY STATEMENTS OF PERSON X ONLY.NOT HIS FOLLOWERS as however eminent they may be ,it can be their interpretation
Who wrote the Vedas - Very good question - Not a human effort :) Than me quoting this answer to you and you most likely laughing it off,please google it if you are genuinely intersted
Complain about this comment
"You can "prove" anything (you believe), as YOU think. That's why many people in this forum do NOT agree with you and have harsh comments about you. Just tell me another member (other than 3 avatars of Eternal India) who opposed/contradicted my views?"
HA HA technical glitches do happen in a chrome browser and that means I do not wait for an OLD ID but create a new one and evince my views.Simple.
Don't say majority here.I am sure people don't agree with unproven theories you brought forward.But again let me repeat:
This religion is not by numbers.It does not proselytize.We know what is harsh ,calling HOLY BOOKS as HARRY POTTER is harsh
Complain about this comment
I do not know if BBC implanted you as catalyst (that is the most civic word I can think of) to make its blog more popular! I never encountered such a “religious” person (even among fanatic Muslims). Anyway, I’lll go to sleep now… GOOD night.
Complain about this comment
No one is asking you to agree.I don't expect you to agree with me.I ask you ,not to expect us to agree with you.Its simple.The status quo PREVAILS and our stands are radically different.
Complain about this comment
"I do not know if BBC implanted you as catalyst (that is the most civic word I can think of) to make its blog more popular! I never encountered such a “religious” person (even among fanatic Muslims). Anyway, I’lll go to sleep now… GOOD night."
FOR STARTERS ,you have found that people of India are generally religious and if I was implanted ,so were you.GOOD NIGHT
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
So you again started masking...
comment 171 reposted
"Many gods such as Indra and Agni are described as having special preferences for different types of flesh - Indra had weakness for bull's meat and Agni for bull's and cow's."
- PROVE WITH VERSE NUMBER AND SCRIPTURE NAME .Then we will talk.else this is false
Complain about this comment
187 continued.You may type the sanskrit verse in English to prove.Else a translation will not work as a proof.
Complain about this comment
" Is Vivekananda issue settled for you?
OR do you still need "direct" evidence that Vivekananda wanted to ABOLISH caste system among Hindus?"
YES ,WOULD BE APPROPRIATE if DIRECT evidence is presented.
I would like to have a hiatus.would end my saying again.
Caste system is not the folly,it is certainly not the nemesis of our society.Our own actions as people,our leaders who shape our nation's future,stand accountable and not the caste system.
Hypothetically,say suddenly by a juggernaut,the caste system were to be destroyed completely..will our society not find new ways of division,then religion will be the culprit.Even if religion were to be defunct,then nationality and it being extinct , we as in people ,will quarrel over gender and race and there is no end.
So the people who committed the honor crime are culpable,not CASTE SYSTEM
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
EI/UI said, “I am not asking you to believe the Gita and incident of Krishna narrating it to Arjun.So I need not prove to you all my tenets and also present the existence of GOD in a platter BECAUSE I AM NOT ASKING YOU/THE AUDIENCE TO BELIEVE IT.”
You believe whatever is written in old/anccient books to be true. You believ that a virgin woman (Kunti) really got pregnant by a God (Sun) by mere eye contact and gave birth to a child (Karna). You believe tthat a single woman (Gandhari, the mother of Durjodhan and his 99 brothers and one sister) can give birth to 101 children. You believe anyting that is writtten in ancient the books like Ramayana annd Mahabharata.
You never gave us any proof from Vedas that beef eating is banned by Hindus while ignoring any credible documents that say otherwise. In fact, it will be interesting to know if the term “Hindu” was used in vedas atall, in the first place. So far I know, it never used the term Hindu in any of the Vedas.
You do not have the proof that beef eating is banned by Hindus as Charak Sanhita has been quoted to say just that. You have no valid reason to believe why people like Vivekananda or Dalai Lama eat non-veg (I hope you will agree that they are one of the most non-violent people in the world and have enough sympathy/empathy towards global hunger and animal pain)!
You think you can start beleiving anything you like without having any proof, while you can continue to negate valid proofs for anything that you do not like in the religion you have. When you talk too many lies and talk too much evven the most compelling truth looses its value. When religious fanatics talk about religion, they start supporting the most abhorant ideas as tthey interret THEIR religion; that religion itself looses its credibility. That’s why Islam is so much under controversy for people like Bin Laden and other fanatics. And that leads to overalll deterioration of societie and countries where there are too many people who believ in that interpretation of Islam. I do not want Hindusim or India (as a country) to go towards that direction.
Complain about this comment
You think you can start beleiving anything you like without having any proof, while you can continue to negate valid proofs for anything that you do not like in the religion you believe in, the way you interpret that religion. When you talk too many lies (knowingly or unknowingly) and talk too much, even the most compelling truth looses its value. When religious fanatics talk about religion, they start supporting the most abhorant ideas as they interpret THEIR religion; that religion itself looses its credibility. That’s why Islam is so much under controversy, worldwide, for people like Bin Laden and other fanatics. And that leads to overalll deterioration of societie and countries where there are too many people who believ in that interpretation of Islam.
We surely can not make the number of such people to zero. There will be a few like those and they will also to post comments in diffferent forums (like BBC) and will try their best to propagate their perverted interpretation of that religion. Development (including religious enlightment) of the society depends on how best other people are made aware about real facts and intension of religion and how best they ignore such religious fanatics and how best laws of that land takes care of such people and their ideas.
I do not want Hindusim or India (as a country) to go towards that very wrong direction.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
"I never encountered such a “religious” person (even among fanatic Muslims)"
I think you will call anyone fanatic if they hold on to their religion.Please ,don't attack your opponents this way
We all know there is a think line between Atheists and Blasphemers.I have never encountered an Atheist(even among lots of Blasphemers,Atheists,Heretics).GOOD NIGHT
Complain about this comment
1.Do you think slaughter of animals to be okay - YES (as meant for consumption as food).
Then how do you justify the pain we cause to animals when they are slaughtered.If killing a human is a crime and he is killed by pain(that's the obvious reason and by another person who decides to terminate a human life),does this reasoning not hold for an Animal also?
2.Do you think that Non-Vegetarianism/Meat Consumption is contributing to Global World Hunger - YES (for poorer countries that do not produce enough food grain for its people) and NO (for those countries that produce enough food grain to feed its citizens and animals).
-You cannot segregate as countries that don't produce and produce enough food as Global food price is dependent on GLOBAL FOOD PRODUCTION.Price fluctuation happen on GLOBAL DEMAND AND SUPPLY.So meat eating in country with enough food production may not bring hunger to that country but more consumption of meat in that country will mean less food overall in the global stock.and less food aid to poor nations.How do you justify meat eating then?
Also don't just say " religious" angle.I just proved how both morally and otherwise,then is an alternate opinion
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
"Many gods such as Indra and Agni are described as having special preferences for different types of flesh" -[CONJECTURE OR SURMISE]
All this is HARRY POTTER according to you.Then why quote this to me ,you have no proof to say that they ate cow flesh.
You seem to have another purpose than prove your point.Why are you not debating Honor killing? Why are you blocking other user comments.By all we all know its none other than YOU.
Complain about this comment
"In fact, it will be interesting to know if the term “Hindu” was used in vedas atall, in the first place. So far I know, it never used the term Hindu in any of the Vedas. "
There is no term called "Hindu" .Its Sanathana Dharma or the "Eternal Law" and Dharma is a very universal concept it just not "religion"
But all this is HARRY POTTER according to your interpretation,then why reason with me ? why quote Swami Vivekananda when you cannot prove his stand by his sentence in CASTE
You support animal slaughter,then what happened to your humanity ?
Answer this,Is it ok to kill animal perpetrate pain on a creature?
Complain about this comment
"Dalai Lama eat non-veg (I hope you will agree that they are one of the most non-violent people in the world and have enough sympathy/empathy towards global hunger and animal pain)!"
Dalai Lama is not a HINDU ,debate this in a Topic of Buddhist tenets,NOT HERE
SHOULD I TELL YOU EVEN THIS ? ITS VERY LOGICAL,YOU CANNOT QUOTE A BUDDHIST LEADER TO SUBSTANTIATE A CASE TO DECRY A HINDU TENET
Complain about this comment
Your stand world hunger and non-veg/meat consumption is not correct.You wrote :
(for poorer countries that do not produce enough food grain for its people) and NO (for those countries that produce enough food grain to feed its citizens and animals).
My Response:
-You cannot segregate as countries that don't produce and produce enough food as Global food price is dependent on GLOBAL FOOD PRODUCTION.Price fluctuation happen on GLOBAL DEMAND AND SUPPLY.So meat eating in country with enough food production may not bring hunger to that country but more consumption of meat in that country will mean less food overall in the global stock.and less food aid to poor nations.How do you justify meat eating then?
You have started the Vegetarianism debate in comment 7 and you are now stumbling to defend it.Finish this before jumping to "KUNTI,KAURAVAS" AND MYTHOLOGY.Then I will respond to the latter.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
You are conveniently ignoring Swami Vivekananda as you believe that Karma is blabbering"
Here is a lecture on Karma :http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_1/Karma-Yoga
Now prove by a lecture by sentences spoken by Swami Vivekananda to abolish caste.Quoting everyone else IS NOT PROOF.Your reasoning is flawed
Complain about this comment
In that sense, YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THEY DID NOT EAT COW OR ANY OTHER MEAT. JUST NAME A SINGLE SLOKA (I’ll accept translation in English) from ANY VEDAS THAT INDICATE BEEF EATING SHOULD BE AVOIDED!
Even Vedas were not written by ANY one person at any single point of time. The information and slokas (songs, poems etc, along with valuable information) passed down generations and it is believed that it was compiled and written during 1500-500 BC.
You may not like Harry Potter as Holy book. But someone MAY consider that book as holy book after many years from now. As those books have some facts (which depict present day society), many imaginary stories and ideas, and above all, interesting to read; just like Ramayana and Mahabharata. We now know that Harry Potter is not a holy book for any religion, but those people later may not think that way and we are not keeping any direct statement from author J. K. Rowling, where she unequivocally states that her books are not religious books.
In fact, its is quite well established that the way Ramayana and Mahabharata was written by Valmiki or VyasDev depicts stereotype Aryans as Gods (Ram, Laxman etc in Ramayana and then Arjun and others in Mahabharata) while demons (Ravana etc) and monkey army are from southern Indian (southern part of Bindhya Mountain range). Monkey army was from Kishkindha and Ravana was from Lanka (Sri Lanka). Their physical descriptions are very vivid and anyone can understand what that mean. I am not telling to demean any specific community (although I am quite certain you will distort that as well).
If a person does not accept that Honor killing is the result of perverted interpretation of Hindu caste system by few religious bigots, then there is no point to discuss that issue with such people. First we need to differentiate the facts from fiction. At this moment we are not in the same page in our interpretation of Hindu religion and caste system among many Hindus. Unless we set that basic point, it will not be of much help to discuss.
Complain about this comment
Your idea of “Karma” (as mentioned before and perpetrated by Adi Shankar and you believe in that) is totally different than that of what Vivekananda preached by his 4 classic stages of “enlightment” (Raj Yoga, Bhakti yoga, Karma Yoga, Gyan Yoga). In case of Vivekananda- Yoga means the realization in direct experience of the preexisting union between the individual consciousness and the universal consciousness and personal responsibilities. As you mis-interpreted this concept and confused yourself and others with that general term “Karma” you used before.
You have a lot to read about Vivekananda before you start commenting about him or his teachings and ways to reform Hindu society.
Thats why I am not ready to discuss that with you, at this time.
Complain about this comment
This is a direct quote from Swami Vivekananda (I posted it before and you conveiniently forgot it):
In the book "Modern India" HE SAID (VIVEKANANDA hinself) : "But there is hope. In the mighty course of time, the Brahmin, and the other higher castes too, are being brought down to the lower status of the sudras and the sudras are being raised to higher ranks". (page-33-34).
I know that even this will not satisfy you.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
"In the book "Modern India" HE SAID (VIVEKANANDA hinself) : "But there is hope. In the mighty course of time, the Brahmin, and the other higher castes too, are being brought down to the lower status of the sudras and the sudras are being raised to higher ranks". (page-33-34)."
I already SAW THIS QUOTE,This is not his quote,This is a statement made by another person.
GET THE AUDIENCE
1.A LECTURE URL OF SWAMI VIVEKANANDA ,FULL TRANSCRIPT WITH HIS CALL TO ABOLISH THE CASTE SYSTEM
- THIS REFERENCE IS FALSE.I EVEN CHECKED THE URL I GAVE FULLY AND SEARCHED THE WORD "CASTE" AND DID NOT FIND A PROOF SO FAR
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Sacrifice is substituted by placing rice rolled up into big spherical shape ball and used with sesame seeds and thus AVOIDING THE KILLING OF AN ANIMAL.
Killing of animals any where is not mentioned as "SATVIKA" or benevolent.
Your references to Wiki are unproven and unsubstantiated.
Complain about this comment
EI/UI- "I already SAW THIS QUOTE,This is not his quote,This is a statement made by another person".
Of course, it IS HIS (Vivekananda's) QUOTE. But in that PDF file it is mentioned by another person. You can read the book "Modern India" and then comment.
Complain about this comment
GREAT. so when you quote extensively from Wiki, the those are "proven" and "substantiated", while the same website is "unproven" and "unsubstantiated" for others!!!!!!
Tusi great ho jee......
Complain about this comment
But again all this should be HARRY POTTER to you,why quote it back to me.
Let me tell you,there were fishermen and people in ancient India who were eating non - veg food.But the practice is not quoted as Satvika.
the tendencies are classified as
1.Satvika (Benevolent)
2.Rajastic (Moderate)
3.Tamasa (Malevolent)
If Rakshashas were eating the meat of animals or humans that does not justify PROVE that religion supports meat/beef eating
Complain about this comment
The quotation you write means "the Brahmin, and the other higher castes too, are being brought down to the lower status of the sudras and the sudras are being raised to higher ranks". (page-33-34)."
this means that many Sudras or the poor farmers were being good and following their Svadharma and reaching heights and Zamindars or the so called Brahmins were exploiting the poor in rife state in Bengal
THIS MEANS THAT ONE CASTE WAS FOLLOWING ITS SVADHARMA AND ONE CASTE WAS NOT.
THIS IS NOT A CALL TO ABOLISH THE CASTE SYSTEM.
Complain about this comment
ANSWER TO THE AUDIENCE.
You wrote "Anyone can consider “Harry Potter” fantasies as holy books after few centuries. "
You ALSO WROTE "Can you or anyone prove that Bhagwat Gita was actually narrated by Krishna to Arjun? "
AND YOU QUOTE SWAMI VIVEKANANDA .What do you have to say about his Gita lecture? Is it a lecture on HARRY POTTER ?
Complain about this comment
EI/UI said, “THIS REFERENCE IS FALSE.I EVEN CHECKED THE URL I GAVE FULLY AND SEARCHED THE WORD "CASTE" AND DID NOT FIND A PROOF SO FAR”.
Either you do not know how to search or telling lies.
For others:
Just goggle “Great Thinkers on Swami Vivekananda” and click on second link of PDF stating Part-3 : Great Thinkers on Vivekananda - ch 2 Swami Vivekananda).
Then go to page “99” as mentioned on the top left or page 33 of that PDF file (of 100 pages). Then check the last sentence of that page and first sentence in the next page.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Response to comment number 218:
"But there is hope. In the mighty course of time, the Brahmin, and the other higher castes too, are being brought down to the lower status of the sudras and the sudras are being raised to higher ranks". (page-33-34)."
this means that many Sudras or the poor farmers were being good and following their Svadharma and reaching heights and Zamindars or the so called Brahmins were exploiting the poor in rife state in Bengal
THIS MEANS THAT ONE CASTE WAS FOLLOWING ITS SVADHARMA AND ONE CASTE WAS NOT.
THIS IS NOT A CALL TO ABOLISH THE CASTE SYSTEM.
Complain about this comment
why don't you paste the URL?
Just goggle “Great Thinkers on Swami Vivekananda” and click on second link of PDF stating Part-3 : Great Thinkers on Vivekananda - ch 2 Swami Vivekananda).
Complain about this comment
I know you will not accept these facts. But I can not help. These exact texts from your favorite ancient texts vividly describes beef eating, not only by common Hindus but by many "Gods" and renowned Hindu saints and its disciples.
Complain about this comment
"GREAT. so when you quote extensively from Wiki, the those are "proven" and "substantiated", while the same website is "unproven" and "unsubstantiated" for others!!!!!!"
you can quote a shloka (type in English ) and give wiki link,you can then prove your case
YOU CANNOT QUOTE A VIEW FROM WIKI.
TUSSI BHI GREAT HO,TUSSI ALSO LIKE TO CALL EPICS AS HARRY POTTER
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Do you think Vivekananda supported Caste system? Any direct or indirect proof?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
1. Do you think Ramayana and Mahabharata authors deliberately demeaned people from Southern India (by comparing them with apes/monkeys and demons)? Or was that a general perception during that time?
2. Have you read food habbits of those people/apes described in those epic books? Don’t you find mention of meat there, particularly among Demons (and also among monkey kings)?
3. Do you or don’t you support that Brahmins (who are strictly vegetarians) in South India are not “original” inhabitants of that region and migrated from North India? Do you agree that many so-called “lower” caste people in south India do eat non-veg more liberally than their Brahmin counter parts?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
I did and I could not get any credible website to support your view.
Then just post the "COW SACRIFICE PROCEDURE WITH A SHLOKA IN A YAGNA", as you are demanding from me (as a proof).
EI/UI- "GET ME COW SACRIFICE PROCEDURE WITH A SHLOKA IN A YAGNA".
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Killing anyone in the name of religion, caste, dowry is not acceptable in any society. The Indian govt should educate people and also help the youngsters ( lovers) to succeed in their lives. At present when young people get into any trouble there are no proper guidence or help from the government.
Its very intresting to read all the comments in this blog, particularly Jay and EI. You guys are fighting each other like recently married civil partners.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
EI and Jay: I'm not sure where your ramblings are going? Not sure how many people are interested in them! Apart from using up several KBytes on the BBC server I do not think anything sublime is being achieved here.
At the end of the day, religion should be personal and spiritual. There should be NO discrimination on the basis of religion, caste, sub-caste, gotra, language, sex, sexual orientation or colour. Any deviation from this is a sign of primitive intelligence and has no place in the modern world. Those who differ are probably best ignored and they can carry on ranting in their sorry little worlds.
The rest of us intelligent folk can agree to build and live in a society that is fair to all and devoid of baseless customs like the caste system which is after all the root of the so-called 'honour-killings' that we are meant to be discussing here.
Complain about this comment
From all the comments I noticed Eternal_India knows everything and Jay knows a lot and rest of us here are all idiots, a typical irony of India for centuries.
Guys, please stop quibbling just for sake of it, we have a problem of caste system, religions and honour killings based on caste or religion and need to educate ourselves(then help poor (not monetary) Indians).Raise your level from old scriptures, try to be leaders and and think hard and provide solutions to these problems.
This is not a game to score the highest points, be serious. Thanks
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
QUOTE of the decade and best so far from EI in this BBC blog: "A pativrata woman is considered more powerful and can cross all spiritual hurdles.Pativrata dharma says that if a woman follows this dharma,she need not attain yougic or any other spiritual spiritual feat to crsos the cycle of rebirths". Source- EI (post#247).
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
I think Biswas should change his photo periodically :-) it will make him look smarter.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This is mainly to Jay and EI(and all his other IDs), please stop exchanging these personal conversations in a public blog. We give our precious time here to share our views and being porous enough to listen to others. We have enough comments from you two and not interested to read any more.
The topic is about honor killing - a horrible consequence of religious/caste based belief which can only drag a society and all its inhabitants to destruction. Biswas also mentioned about women empowerment as a reason for this and I agree with him. So, like any sane human being I cannot support any discrimination on the basis of age/caste/creed/sex/sexual orientation/religion or anything under the sun which deprives a human being of any of his/her rights. We should all denounce all the evils and the cause of all the evils to build a better future and a robust society.
It’s no use substantiate your own views using some gospel or a harry potter book. If you have time go to India and change it the way you want. Fighting with each other in a forum will not help any of you, other than making an interesting read extremely boring and irrelevant.
Jay- if you have to spend so much time to change one person’s view then how much time you need to change all of India (or at least those who don’t comply with you)?
EI (and all your pseudonyms)- this is not a place to teach us the old scriptures of India. We are all educated people here, if we wish we would prefer to read from the scriptures itself rather than getting all the never-ending garbage from you
Complain about this comment
@ Whatever99 (post#244) and Vivek (#243), If other peoople do not participate much, we can never have any meaningful discussion. You only can ignore outdated, self-deteating interpretation of a religion if people with more modern, contemporary outlook and ability to think for themselves start contributing to the discussion. I think people like you should come forward and show your leadership quality, discuss the contemporary issues AMONG YOURSELVES, ignoring religious bigots.
The main reason for Islam to be in such a bad shape as they destroyed the internal control mechanism to reform; forgot the importance of self-criticism. Peoople with fanatic and outdated interpretation of that religion with their perverted, 18th century mentality rules that society. More moderate views from people (like Javed Akhtar, Shabana Azmi, Hamid Ansari etc) are drwoned amongst the loud fundamentalist noises. Now many Islamic societies in many countries (with majoritty Muslim population) pay a heavy price. I hope Hindu fundamentalism would not grow to such an extent to destroy Indian secular democracy and political patries exploit that more to minatian and/increase their vote-bank.
We need to counter such fanaticism, not only to stop honor killing but to prevent India to going to the same route as Pakistan and many otther countries did in recent times.
Complain about this comment
I have skimmed through most of the comments on this topic. After, analyzing all the comments made by people of Indian origins whether in India or living abroad, it becomes crystal clear that Indians are the most divided, segregated, and polarized creatures on this earth. Some people rather than criticizing the act of murders and homicides are taking aim on the writer. This is pathetic show of indifference and prejudice. The act of killing of any type whether in the name of religion, caste, creed, family honour or for anything else is simply a murder and crime against humanity. "PEOPLE WHO ARE BUTCHERING OTHER PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF HONOUR KILLING HAVE NO HONOUR OF THEIR OWN OR THEY ARE BORN WITH NO DIGNITY AT ALL. IM SIMPLE WORDS, THEY ARE COWARDS, MURDERERS, AND CRIMINALS." This act of honor killing in the name of so called rotten family honor is an act much like killing of gay and lesbians. The honor killing is a first degree homophobic act and should be punishable by death.
I take pity of those people who support it in anyway. The tradition of bride killing, female foeticide, and honor killing are all act of crime against humanity and have no place in a civilized and respectable society. I feel ashamed to be an Indian where society rather than condeming this gastly act of human killings portrays it as a act of bravery in the name of family honour.Only those families who have no honour of their own can engage in this sort of inhuman act.
I think I have conveyed my point clearly and I do not want to offend any person or an individual.
I also hope that BBC will honor the right of speech and will publish my comments swiftly.
Thanks
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Where is the honour in murdering your child?
This is a matter of control, not of honour.
Complain about this comment
Mr Biswas aka BAKWAS, should be asking why there are so many "honour Killings" in pakistan and bangladesh, infact any muslim country, heck even british muslims practice this.
Complain about this comment
This does not happen in the south and i feel the people from the south a re more tolerant and forward thinking than the people from the north.
Complain about this comment
If you see the online matrimonial sites, the muslims bar contact from the non-muslims and the brahmins quote "all hindus except low caste". I think the only solution to this problem is intermarrige amoung all castes and religions and may be in 50 to 100 years there wont be any distinction.
Its already happening in europe because of inter racial marriages there are new breed of people who are more tolerant to all races.
Complain about this comment
Why are such articles in BBC ,written only on Hinduism,why not other religions.Honor killings happen in every religion and is a diabolical phenomenon.
I don't think one,two or few people killing their family members for honor should be used to defame a nation of a billion.It is not a yardstick to measure this country,its culture.
Complain about this comment
I don't agree with people who say that Caste or Religion are to blame for honor killing.People who think so may not follow the religion,but millions are Hindus follow the Caste system as a part of Hinduism.It does not mean they treat others disrespectfully or commit injustices against other castes.So I think people should respect this.
Complain about this comment
I see some peculiarity in the posts as I scrolled superficially to see comments.Honor killing is given less importance and Caste is debated more.
Honor Killing is bad,we all now.But I believe that not only Caste,but any religion,any system of society can have its image falsely understood by some aberrant action of unscrupulous elements that claim to be a part of system and commit impropriety.
I ,being the part of the Caste and the religion, totally accept the premise of the caste system.That does not make me and others like me 'Hindu Fundamentalists'.In fact I think, these are impudent assertions by some who seem to live in the West and have never understood the basics and fundamentals of this pacifist religion.
All this caste divide and the politics and honor killings are a recent phenomena,not more than last 400 years.For thousands and thousands of years we have lived peacefully and prosperously,affably with each other irrespective of Caste.
Complain about this comment
All religions in all societies do discriminate among people. It is a human tendency to prove that s/he is the best and they take help of so many different criteria. But any of those criteria do not have much social value. Muslim, Christian, or any other religion we know till date, all have some form or other to discriminate among their own people. But that does not justify that discrimination among those people and more importantly that does not give Hindus the right to follow that negative aspect of those societies and religions.
In my opinion caste system among Hindus never gave any social or even religious benefit to Hindus while it has so many negative impacts on Hindu religion and India as a country (where majority are Hindu), even if we agree that caste system was introduced based on ones’ profession.
It is also true that even if we get rid of caste system or religion altogether that will not solve discrimination among people in near foreseeable future. We will find out other/pre-existing reasons to do that. But that does not mean we will not try our best to minimise at least one criterion (Caste in this case) that wrongly discriminate among people and is a major social problem for India today. Minimising the caste division among Hindus will also help Hindu religion as a whole, both as a country for India and Hindu society globally.
Complain about this comment
"India has ignored "honour killings - a lawyer recently called a national scandal for too long."
- So one or two khap panchayats in Haryana ,make the honor killings a national scandal according a "lawyer",Biswas is trying to second him.What a classic example of poor judgement.Who is this lawyer by the way,his name is not quoted,which means the person is not a prominent lawyer.
Something becomes a national "scandal" when majority of people start supporting such a step.In a country as varied and huge as India,A country than changes in texture for every 40 km radius, no opinion can hold agreeable across every section of the society.Caste system has a religious premise and is justified if one follows the religion of Hinduism.
When is Biswas going to write on Colonization by Britain and the amount of wealth it sapped from India in 200 years.That was a national scandal perpetrated on the nation of India.Looking forward to that article.
Complain about this comment
Well, I am finally glad to see that there is a break from the digression toward vegetarianism and back to the real topic of discussion, which is "Honor killing." I agree with much of what Jay and AmbivalenceVacillating said in their last few posts, as I being a Christian from the USA, can agree that anyone can hijack a religion and cause others who don't know much about that religion, to potentially believe their distortion of it. Yet, the teachings of Jesus Christ culminated in the idea that God loves people because He created them, and says we should love others as ourself, since we are made in His image. However, I am not here tonight to push Christianity, but to agree that people are valuable to God and we should respect that, and learn to live with each other respectfully, and lovingly, as we would want to be treated ourselves, and when any religion becomes distorted to the point of disregarding that basic rule, then we all be come nothing more than barbaric creatures that neither really believe in God or human value.
Complain about this comment
Let me modify something I said in first post #282. I meant to say that I agreed with Jay and AmbivalenceVacillating on some of the things of which they said, in regard to different religions having a variety of personal interpretations, where people can do barbaric atrocities against other human beings in the name of religion, and not truly be representing that religion at all. Nevertheless, honor killings, in regard to marrying outside a certain group within the same religion, such as the Caste, is not practiced in all religions just as AmbVac (short) suggests. Christianity doesn't practice that. The only thing close to that in Christianity, was blacks and whites marrying one another during post slavery and segregation times. It wasn't called 'honor killing' but that's basically what it was. Our country has put an end to that, and it is punishable quite severely, as it should be. And, for Amb's other point that honor killing isn't a major problem in India, well, it is, just as certain problems elsewhere, including the USA, still needs to be addressed. We can't look our own country through rose colored glasses, while always wanting to point to everyone else as being at fault for everything. Whether some people want to believe it or not, society is continually evolving, and secular laws, religious beliefs, and personal opinions are always going to be a part of society - and there are always going to be various beliefs about what is right and wrong, and our world's societies are going to have to come to terms with how to deal with those differences, such as with what we discussing about 'honor killings'. It does seem to me that we, the world, are on a universal track of improving human rights, howbeit, much slower than desired, and much slower than those suffering those abuses deserve.
Complain about this comment
In response to post # 279, 280, and 281 "AmbivalenceVacillating". Mr. ambivalent, you are regurgitating the same old stuff as most Indians do. For all the problems facing India, Britishers are held responsible. All sorts of killings in the name of religion, caste, color, and honor are not the gifts given by them. It is only the inborn tendency of Indians to held responsible Britisher's for all their miseries and downfalls. Where were the minds and hearts of Indians when that country became colonized.Open your eyes and get out your encapsulated mentality and stop bashing Britishers for all the problems facing India.
Moreover, nothing fruitful will come out of religions unless and until we start believing in the nonviolent philosophy of Gandhi and in term "SARVA-DHARM-SAMBHAV" (RESPECT FOR ALL RELIGIONS).
Complain about this comment
I think this will be my last post for the time being. But I do feel it was quite enlightening to read the many threads on this blog, although the digression toward Hindu beliefs about meating eating and vegetarianism seemed to be quite overstated and off the point. Nevertheless, I do believe I gathered from the posts that the religious Hindu beliefs and the society rules of Caste are two separate things that have different historical roots, and consequently, may or may not be intertwined, depending on various interpretations by the people of India as a whole. Well, to me that was enlightening, as was the reason of my reading all the posts, since I wanted to know whether the Hindu religion itself created the honor killing concept. Now that I have gathered that it didn't, I am more respectful of Hinduism, although I am a Christian, and will remain a Christian because of other reasons. But in my investigation of Islam and the beliefs of 'Honor killing,' the radical sect do take their text literally from the Koran to kill infidels, although peace loving Muslims want to pretend the Koran doesn't say that, but only quote the parts written about tolerance. And, as far as Christianity goes, Jesus, nor none of His followers preached or practiced any killings at all, but said to love your enemies and pray for them. Any honor killing or murders, such as the Crusades, can never be justified from New Testament scripture whatsoever. So having said that, I believe the more we all become enlightened toward what others believe, and work on a consolidation of standard human rights practices, we will better our society just in itself - even apart from our different beliefs about death, life, and the hereafter. We can save those debates for times when we all can freely visit each other's countries, and sit peacefully, respectfully, and lovingly across the table, without the dreaded acts of murdering each other because we don't agree on things, but believe in the universal law of human value and respect. Honestly, I have to say that I am grateful to live in a day when we can discuss things like this all around the world via the internet. What a great invention for creating peace.
Complain about this comment
Honour killing is not just in India, it's world wide. The majority of people doing honour killing are Muslims. I believe it has to do with Islam. Islamic men can marry outside of Islam, but women are not allowed, as Prophet Mohammad said, women are the weaker sex. That's disturbing.
Complain about this comment
Ktown :" such as the Caste, is not practiced in all religions just as AmbVac (short) suggests"
- I did not suggest that Caste System is in all religions.It is in fact a unique facet of Hinduism.But I mean that other religions also have sub-sects like Catholics and protestants and yes aberrant elements do target each other.I also agree that problem of Honor killing should be addressed.
But I differ with others when they blame the caste system.I think that Caste or Religion is not the actual problem here and blaming it is unfair,as Indian's have lived with the Caste system for thousands of years.It is not repressive as people would not have endured it if different caste's were treating each other with repugnance.
People were affable to their countrymen irrespective of Caste.Today this is politicized and also the youth does not seem to be cognizant of the reasons and the justifications of the Caste system before excoriating it.I also see vegetarianism debate started unnecessarily here.We all know religion prohibits non-vegetarian food for various reasons.Raking all this up is not apt here.
Complain about this comment
VIC: The reason's for India's colonization is known.Disunity among major kingdoms,misrule by the moghuls in overspending,less focus on science and technology to develop weapons to defeat the Europeans.
But one cannot say Britain is absolved of its responsibility as soon as it colonized this nation.It did not treat this country at par with itself and did not consider it as one kingdom.
" Mr. ambivalent, you are regurgitating the same old stuff as most Indians do"
- I and other Indians blame Britain rightfully for LOOTING India.For bringing abominable poverty to its people,for destroying its indigenous economy,for dividing the country on religion,for letting millions die in the Bengal famines,for opium and slave trade,for stolen treasures of India(Kohinoor Diamond is one example).
I urge you to wake up and remember that Mahatma Gandhi rightfully called the British colonization of India as evil and the west cannot justify this by pointing out the Caste system.
Complain about this comment
There is no point in blaming British for the problems India is facing now. It will serve no purpose. We cannot change the past, but we can build our future. British “divide and rule” policy may or may not be involved in deterioration of caste and religious harmony among Indians. But the fact is Caste and religious harmony has been deteriorated, its use in Indian politics has increased since British left India in 1947.
Even today there is an article in Times of India, “A group of Jats on Saturday threatened to disturb the upcoming Commonwealth games in the national capital if the government failed to take a decision on their demands for reservation in government jobs by July 10”: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Jat-group-threatens-to-disturb-CWG/articleshow/6124808.cms.
Today the whole country, including from other religions like Muslims and Christians (barring few specific groups)wants to become “lower caste” to get the benefit of reservation while none of them are ready to accept inter-caste marriage and show a acceptance (NOT just tolerance but acceptance) to any other “lower” caste or religion. I hope you will accept that British is not involved here.
Complain about this comment
Donnow to whom comment 289 is addressed,but it seems like me.I will respond.
I agree there is no point blaming the British,but we need not accept sermons from western lawmakers/governments or from some Indians and after settling in UK/any other western country calling our system,our religion and our dogma, as irrelevant.
I don't agree with you.You seem to quote one case of Jats.This incident is no touchstone to rate a System.Plus Jats are themselves not a separate caste but part of the 4 main castes.I know some very good people from the Jat community.
Reservation based on caste can be on economic incentives for education only,not occupation,by also looking into economic status of a family.So Caste system is not the problem here,its blatant misuse is.Get rid of Caste will not be the elixir as again new ways of dividing people can be easily devised.
You reference to "inter - caste" marriage has no relevance here.I and people who follow this religion and are a part of a caste will rightfully choose to marry WITHIN our caste but again we condemn any Honor killing.
Complain about this comment
This is addressed first to AmbivalenceVacillating, thank you for your claification to me in your post 287, but I do have questions in response to your quote from post 279.
You said, "I ,being the part of the Caste and the religion, totally accept the premise of the caste system.That does not make me and others like me 'Hindu Fundamentalists'.In fact I think, these are impudent assertions by some who seem to live in the West and have never understood the basics and fundamentals of this pacifist religion."
Well, yes, as a westerner and Christian from the USA, I do not know a great deal about Hinduism, although I am open for enlightenment. Nevertheless, my question is about (since I assume now) that Caste and Hinduism have separate historical roots, and have become intertwined in the culture of India, as I seem to have concluded from all of what I've read here on this blog.
Yet, when you say that you subscribe to the Caste system, does that mean marrying outside one's Caste is still considered an integral part of Hindu religious values, since I assume to marry within one's Caste is to also marry a Hindu exclusively, correct?
Still, as far as discrimination goes, and with staying on point about 'honor killing,' I, being a white man, married a black woman (both of us from the USA and Christian). I was discriminated against mostly by my own family, who apparently did so based completely on the racial issue, although it was masked as being shunned as a Christian religious view, although that was completely bogus, since Christianity only makes the distinction or discrimination of one marrying another Christian. And, the religion does not give any credence whatsoever to anyone to forcing that issue, so if a Christian doesn't marry another Christian, another person has no right to punish or reject them for their decision. Jesus' higher rule of law is to love everyone, including one's enemies.
So, culturally, it seemed the racial issue and religious issue were intertwined here in the USA for many decades, although there has been separation of the two by law for some time now, not allowing anyone to get away with murdering (what the east calls 'honor killing,' as we never had that term for it), although it was basically the same thing. Now there is much more acceptance of interracial marriage here, as many of you know, we now have a bi-racial black/white president.
Nevertheless, my question is for you, and India, do you see that Hinduism and Caste will ever be separate, and in your opinion, should it be? Is it similar to the case I mentioned in my own experience, where cultural taboos such as racism (or economic or social status) have leaked over into a distortion of religious beliefs simply based on cultural norms or values at the time, which has nothing to do with true beliefs of that religion?
Now be patient with me, as I
Complain about this comment
@AmbivalenceVacillating. The problem is not whether you follow caste system or not, OR if you prefer to marry within your own caste or religion or nationality or state etc. The problem arises when someone forces others, particularly on those adult people whom they control or try to control (mostly it is children or other relatives).
In case of Hindus, honour killing has very high correlation with inter-caste marriages.
It is also not the British or any Western people who get affected by such social superstition (to me) and "religious tradition" (to many others). Influence of caste is not limited to Hindus living in India. Almost same proportion of (Indian) Hindus settled abroad also believe in that social discrimination.
It is your personal choice if you prefer to marry within your caste or religion or nationality or whatever way YOU think right for YOU. But if someone else does not follow the same criteria, then NO ONE ELSE (even his/her parents) have the right (social, religious and legal, of course) to take revenge depending on their personal interpretation of religion or caste (or that particular criteria). On the contrary, they (those "guardians" of those murdered couple) should think that the way they behaved and practiced religion and/or caste did not convince their own children to follow or believe those "tradition" or interpretation of religion or caste. They punish their own children for no fault of them but for the elders themselves.
Complain about this comment
"The problem arises when someone forces others, particularly on those adult people whom they control or try to control (mostly it is children or other relatives)."
- Yes there is a state of disagreement when a parent,thinks otherwise. Parents are the reason for the existence of an individual.Parents decide the name of an individual.Parents help, walk the first steps of individual.Parents help the individual discover the world.They support individuals education.Parents help the individual in any crisis,and play roles of a true friend,companion,family member in happiness and distress and much more.Any individual will count on his parents if not anyone else.And the list goes on..
Perhaps that's why Hinduism says to treat Parents as God and before God(Mother,Father,Guru,Diety).If a parent of a Hindu family believes that his/her ward should concentrate on his/her studies more than in distractions of love,or marry in outside caste,as it is against the religion,they can say/express that to their wards.
The marriage being one of the most important decisions in a persons life,deserves the approval of one's parents as they have done so much for him.This is not an outmoded idea.Why should we be like the West, were a guy/girl would move out the family at 18,bring a girlfriend and may or may not marry her,live separately and come on weekends to say Hi Daddy or Hi Mummy.Also we know the rate of divorces in the West and it is a sign of social breakdown.This cannot be the Indian values we cherish.
Independence is good and every parent,would want his/her kid to be successful and happy ,would permit independence at different stages in Life.But on marriage ,If a guy/girl ignores the wishes of a Parent and elopes with a partner or forces into a marriage not agreeable to the parents,it would break their hearts.This means the guy/girl has ignored all that has been done by the parents to him/her and chosen his way without a wee bit of consideration to their feelings.
Todays parents are generally well educated in the middle class.They are religious and believe in the religion and the Caste system.There is nothing wrong here.Let us not measure the Parents and their importance in being part of the partner an individual chooses by looking at aberrations in this honor killing.
Complain about this comment
I also want to respect American culture here.I do not mean that people there have no moral principles.I have found many Americans to be very helping and friendly.I only meant that after seeing increasing statistics of teenage violence,drugs and distraction from studies in the West,I believe as far as India is concerned,living with Family,abiding by caste and trying to gel into family and society is good for any individual in India's multi-textural society.
Complain about this comment
Thank you Amb for your candor, as it gives me insights into some of the views of your Indian culture. I agree that family values in the west have deteriorated to an extent of disgrace. I hardly find myself watching secular television here in the USA anymore (except for educational programs and occasional sporting events), simply because there is so much programming that leads to undermining good moral family values, and does in my opinion create more rebellion in teenagers, as well as more cases of marriage and divorce and out of wedlock child births. None of these things are Christian values, although they sometimes get labeled as such since the USA has predominantly been considered a Christian nation. Well, that's an oxymoron itself, since secularism and humanism is the leading contingency in political, social, and ecomonic thought here, rather than Christian philosophy. So I agree with you that families should attempt to steer a child into making good decisions that will bless everyone involved. However, I see also that too many parents want to direct a child's entire life simply based on their prejudices. Christians have even been known to try and control their children, telling them what college to go to, and who to marry, etc. But my experience and belief is that God created each person unique to pursue the gifts and talents He placed within them, and no parent usually knows, especially at their child's birth, whether that child will have ability, potential, or desire to be a doctor, or whether they will be a janitor, or whatever. I read something on Wikipedia about Caste just recently between posts, and I found it very thought provoking that someone said (although I don't quote wikipedia as gospel), that many Hindus believe that Karma determines what Caste a person will be reborn in, so if the person was bad, then they will come back in a lower Caste of dishonor, and have to work in lower paying jobs, and have worse lot in life. Now wouldn't this lend itself to the belief that lower Caste people deserve less, and should not be given the same respect and benefit of the higher Castes? It almost sounds similar to some western white people's belief that black people were cursed by God, and is the reason why many black African nations are struggling in poverty, etc. Well, of course, I don't subscribe to that, but again, in keeping on point with 'honor killing' or just discrimation in general, wouldn't thinking like that lend itself to not caring about others since one may consider them inferior and getting what they deserve in Karma? So my last question is, are all people created equal (in respect to freedom of opportunity and choice), or are they not. Christian teaching says they are, what does Hinduism say.
Complain about this comment
@ ktown : Appreciate your questions.Since you have many questions,I will try to delineate the response in multiple comments.As I respond to your questions,I would like to also say,that all these answers are not "my view" or " my interpretation",but exact gist from Hinduism on Caste system.
Since the nature of Subject is on religion,I will have to go to Mythology,but I will try, my best to use less Hindu names as you are a White American and may not understand these terms.
Q1." my question is about (since I assume now) that Caste and Hinduism have separate historical roots,and have become intertwined in the culture of India, as I seem to have concluded from all of what I've read here on this blog. "
A1 : The Caste System and Hinduism are not with seperate historical roots.The Caste system is clearly quoted in primordial Holy Writ's of Hinduism ,whose authors are not yet discovered by Modern Science. Vedas(most important texts,used as refernce for any religious issue) are the authoritative texts,that define the Hindu Caste system.The Vedas are not authored by Human effort(I will leave the question of who authored them for the time being)
As far as History goes,Historians have not discovered the "founder" of Hinduism.They only predict a time from where they know of early Hindu texts.This strengthens the case that Hinduism is not a Man's creation.
Hinduism is the name given by the English to this religion.It is actually called as "Sanathan Dharm" or the Eternal Law.Which means this religion is destined to be perpetual,It has no begining or end.Now you may get the doubt that a "phenomenon" with no end is understandable.How can any phenomenon have no beginning? Hinduism says that time, has no begining and the "Supreme Brahman",the omnipresent God is present everywhere ..in all living and non living forms,from time with no beginning or end.This "Supreme Brahman" or God manifests into varied,innumerable Hindu gods for a lay man to discern and appreciate the variegated characters.Hence as perceived that Hinduism has multiple Gods ,it has one supreme entity which has existed without any beginning and will continue to be perpetual.This is also said to be beyond the rational comprehension of lay man busy in world affairs like you(most probably) and me.
Hinduism says that soul of a person is immortal.The body is mortal.So a soul is subjected to multiple births/rebirths where it can be born as a Human or as an animal or as a tree or bird and so on depending on the good/bad actions it accumulates.Hence it declares all life forms to be sacred and importance of nonviolence to be paramount.
From all the births,the Human birth is given the invaluable importance.Within the human birth it decides the Caste of a person on his previous sins and merits.Gender is also decided thus,so is economic status, favorable or unfavorable circumstances in life and innate intelligence and capability and lot of other factors.This is called the results of "Past Action".It also asserts the importance of "Future actions" that are within the control of the individual.
Hinduism also declares,once a person is born in any caste,he/she should adhere to the rules of Caste and rules of the religion and lead a life of benevolence and advance professional till a period in life,then devote more time for spirituality to escape the cycle of birth and death.
Why escaping cycle of rebirth is important ? Because as a person/living form is born in this world,it will endure happiness and suffering ,also accrue merits and sins only to be reborn again in a better or worse state than previous birth and this cycle is endless unless one advances spiritually to escape the drudgery of births and deaths.
Hinduism also says that this world is an illusion and every thing we see is not reality,be it family ,wife or children.They will not be with us forever as a Human journey ,a souls jouney in life is a lone journey.So a soul can enter the womb of a Jackal or a fox if the person was very sly in his previous births,A person can be reborn as very wealthy if he was helping the poor in his past actions.
Hindu texts quite the example of a humans "dream" to illustrate that the world is illusion.When we are dreaming we think every incident in our dream as true.Every person in that dream to be true and we feel all the emotions in that dream,ONLY TO WAKE UP AND DISCOVER ALL OF IT WAS AN ILLUSION.Hindu texts say,similarly this world is an illusion as all of us will discover so after we (our soul) leaves a body.If you can discern the answer to first question,I will proceed further.Thank you.
Complain about this comment
@ ktownc: Short response to 295 .
Should a lower caste person be treated disrespectfully? NEVER.Yes the reference to karma by a person in this blog is true.All the actions I have talked about in previous comment are Karma.I did not use this word as I thought you may not comprehend the vernacular.
So every individual must know that past Karma is always being updated and insulting anyone will immediately reduce the stature and add to a persons sins.There is no guarantee that a person in higher caste will get the opportunity to be born in higher caste again.He can be easily born in lower caste or as an animal depending on his actions.A lower caste person an escape the cycle of births and deaths without even being reborn in a higher caste.So all individuals in society must realize the value and utilize the precious human birth to escape the cycle of births and deaths.
I will answer in detail later but if you discern comment 296,I will answer your questions further.
Complain about this comment
Yes, I do understand the concept of divine creation, as being beyond human invention, as even Christianity and Islam believe this also. Muhammed said that the angel Gabriel quoted him all of the text for the Koran, which has become their religion, and the Christian bible declares that God moved by His Holy Spirit to influence men to write what God was conveying to them over many centuries. So then, you are saying that Hinduism is believed to be created by a Supreme being - God. Yet, I expect that these beliefs in all three religions is what gives in stability and credence since who could refute God? Certainly, a man we can take issue with, but God? Ok then, go on.
Complain about this comment
@ktown : Please let me know if you understood the example of "illusion" I gave in 296,along with the example of a a soul entering a jackals womb or a human womb depending on actions of previous births? This is very important to proceed.
Kindly confirm if you understood these 2 examples and i will gladly proceed :).
Complain about this comment
Well, I do know some things about Hinduism, from studies years ago, such as Karma, continual rebirths (reincarnation), being an eternal soul. Christianity teaches that we are also an eternal soul. The concept of illusion, well I don't know if I understand that except to say that I believe there is a spiritual realm beyond the natural realm, and I have concurred with dreams of my own, that sometimes they seem so real, that upon waking, it makes one feel that the realm we are in may not be what it appears to be. However, I don't take that to mean it isn't real, as what is real, if you've ever watched the movie "The Matrix," it coveys that the mind is in the world that is created for that individual's mind. Yet, that may sound thought provoking, but it aids no proof in such a theory, as to what point would it bear to be real or not real, if we are still proceeding on as the objective is anyway? Christian teaching says you die once, and then the judgement. But as far as coming back as a jackall or tree, what point would that be, does Hinduism beleive their is conscious awareness in a jackall to understand that one has been demoted from a previous life?
Complain about this comment
Okay.These 2 examples are very important to proceed, I will try to make it simpler.
Assume you were a budding school student who always dreamt of getting into MIT.You are preparing for GRE/SAT exams avidly and you work hard in a night and fall asleep.
IN YOUR DREAMS...you see you have got a score of 1590/1600.Your application to MIT is processed.You clear the tough admission process and sit for the first lecture at MIT with stewen hawkings giving the introductory speech.You are filled with ineffable joy"...And you wake up to discover all the dream was an ILLUSION.While you were dreaming you did not realize a wee bit that, all this was an illusion.Only after you woke up,you realized it was illusion.
Jackal example was quoted just to show that a soul can enter the body of a an animal or a human depending on his characteristics and actions in previous births.
For example a person who always abuses others can be born as a dog or a person who kills and harms animals can be born as a herbivore in a forest to be attacked and killed by preying animals.So a soul can enter any physical body depending on Karma. A person who is very cunning and acts with slyness to deceive others can be born as a Jackal.
Now are these two examples clear ?
Similarly,Hinduism says this life ,this world and the relationships and bonds we create with the people(like our son,wife,parents) in this world are all an illusion.After death a soul will realize that the life it just crossed was an illusion.
Complain about this comment
I will take a break and go to bed.I will respond to other questions of yours tomorrow.
Complain about this comment
Yeah, I understand that, as that's basically what I was saying with the movie "The Matrix" concept, although in the example of the movie, everyone was in a make-believe world of their mind, an illusion, but everyone in that make-believe world was real people also from somewhere else, but didn't know it. So in essence, in comparison, physical life was an illusion, in that world, although spiritual/soul life is really processing the supposed learned experiences from that illusioned life.
So again, it doesn't matter to me, in regard to the concept of illusion or not, if the point is in learning from our mistakes and moving on, although I don't believe this really happens this way. Nevertheless, but I still don't see the purpose for coming back as a jackall or tree if there is no conscious affect to learning what one did wrong in a previous life - except to say they are just suffering consequences, whether consciously learned or not. Again, I don't believe that either.
Yet, I don't want us to digress too far off the main topic for this blog, as my point in learning here, is to compare the reason as to why some Hindu's justify 'honor killing.' My take is, that they do so because they believe the lower Caste people came into life by Karma in a previous life, and are beneath their social status, and when their daughter or son marries them, they deserve to die. But honestly, I think they do it more because of human pride and superiority, more so because of Karma, because wouldn't Karma put them in worse shape for doing that?
Complain about this comment
Amb, with your statement about a person crossing over and finding out that his/her family was an illusion, does that mean they were not real, and had not 'crossed over' also? If that is so, then sounds like justification to commit 'honor killing,' if they were just an illusion anyway, and the only detering motivation for those wanting to commit 'honor killing,' would be only in self-preservation to help their own Karma. Sounds rather self-centered to me - if that were the case.
Complain about this comment
Note sure what the author's intent is but he is either not aware of the ground realities or is deliberately trying to mix arguments.
Take the case of Haryana, the authord fails to mention the concept of "brotherhood". In Haryana, many villages has established brotherhood and if you reside into those villages you treat the members of brotherhood as you brother and sister. This is one of the reason why today's romeo's and juliet's at times get severe thrashing or get killed when they start crossing the line. No one is going to come after them if they go and settle hundreds of miles away e.g. in Mumbai. But if you stay in the same region/area after disgracing your family you are inviting trouble. I do not believe in killings but it is important to understand and point out that the parents/siblings who do so are not psychopaths but they live in a society where such affairs are considered shameful.
Next, it is equally important to understand and respect the traditions of different parts of the world. Allowing young men and women to mingle prior to marriage is condsidered okay in big cities of India like in any other western country, but it is still a taboo in many parts of India. Likewise, wearing skimpy clothes is okay in big cities but is considered shameful in small towns. Just because something is considered okay in a big city doesn't mean they necessarily are good for society and copying them would result into development of a villager and his/her family. It is better we the people of big cities keep our thoughts and ideas to ourselves and let the people living in villages live as per their age old traditions. Only thing the govt should do is to facilitate the relocation of young/women, who cannot live as per the local cutoms of small towns/villages, to big cities such as Mumbai, Pune etc.
Complain about this comment
But I do have one other thing to say about religion in general, that I have observed in all religions that believe they are of supernatural origin (including mine), is this: that because they believe they are not of human origin, that that confirms that it came from the God, the supreme being, for sure - and is real. With people believing that, then there is very little reason to analyze and investigate the concepts or "supposed" truths behind these religions, since God originated it. However, it ought to bear consideration that we all should beware that just because beliefs may have come from a supernatural source, beyond our natural realm, that that doesn't mean it came from God at all. Even Christianity says that there are evil spirits at work in the supernatural realm, parading as angels of light, but are feverishly attempting to deceive mankind into believing anything but the truth. Again, I am not here to push Christianity on people on this blog, as to what it is all about in how to get to heaven - as I haven't even mentioned that at all. But to just give objective ideas as to why we should all consider and investigate all other "supposed" truths, and then rely on the true God to reveal the truth from the false. I have done that with my own religion. And, in doing so, we ought to aim to improve the life of others, and eliminate human rights abuses around the world, such as 'honor killings,' whether or not it is going to help our Karma, or judgment with God - simply because we love people and see them as valuable to God - as that is what Jesus taught - and one of the reasons why I truly believe Christianity is superior to all other religions - since He elevated all human beings on equal terms above social, economic, racial, and ethnic division or discrimination.
Complain about this comment
@ktown : Now the illusion and rebirth differences were not to digress but to justify the premise of the Caste system.
If "this life" was the beginning and end for a person,and if a person will not face judgement to be reborn into another less privileged physical form,then a person can start committing crimes with impunity as he becomes never accountable to his actions.
Thats where Karma and rebirth come in and a person's sins and good deeds will award a person with grief and happiness.HENCE KARMA AND REBIRTH JUSTIFY THE CASTE SYSTEM AS a person in higher caste had merits to him in his previous births to be born in higher caste.A person in lower caste may not have done as much merits ,but has still done enough good to be born a human.
But again very importantly, present actions will determine if the person gets to keep his/her caste ,escapes cycle of rebirths,get promoted or pushed down to a lower caste or is even born an animal.
The example of illusion was used to demonstrate the "transitoriness" of life and the importance for an individual to focus on higher pursuits spiritually, professionally.Hence honor killing is NEVER justified.Any form of violence perpetrated on anyone is NOT permitted.Also the religion of Hinduism asks people of all caste to respect each other and show compassion and friendliness towards each other.It emphasizes the unity and brotherhood.
I hope your first question is answered.I will answer other questions in short paragraphs soon.This answer was long as it elucidated the basics before you can understand further.
Complain about this comment
Q2 "Yet, when you say that you subscribe to the Caste system, does that mean marrying outside one's Caste is still considered an integral part of Hindu religious values, since I assume to marry within one's Caste is to also marry a Hindu exclusively, correct?"
A2: Marriage within the same caste is prescribed and not "inter caste" even though both Caste's are the part of Hinduism and people in the caste's are Hindus.So marriage outside one's caste is treated as breakage of law and will accrue demerit in Hinduism.
Q3 - "Nevertheless, my question is for you, and India, do you see that Hinduism and Caste will ever be separate, and in your opinion, should it be? Is it similar to the case I mentioned in my own experience, where cultural taboos such as racism (or economic or social status) have leaked over into a distortion of religious beliefs simply based on cultural norms or values at the time, which has nothing to do with true beliefs of that religion? "
A3:No ,Caste system is not an external creation,but a part of Hinduism and hence it is not seen as separate, as it is an important factor of Karma.So the system is not a cultural belief but a religious one and it has existed for thousands of years even as per scientists, historians who attempted to research on Hinduism.
Complain about this comment
Ok, Amb, so in your last answer A3, why do many Indians say that Caste is outdated and obsolete if it is a total part of the religion of Hinduism? Do many Hindus (or Indians) not subscribe to what you've told me, as some posts early on in this blog indicate that Caste and Hinduism wasn't necessarily intrinsic. For example, I quote wikipedia (although I would assume that Hindu scholars would either support or deny much of what is said there), which says, "Although many Hindu scriptures contain passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system, they also contain indications that the caste system is not an essential part of Hinduism." Many things like this are said, along with many people from India (it seems). So I am confused as to what Indian really believe about all of this. I suspect it is just a wide range of beliefs and opinions, just as with any religion and secular society around the world, correct? I hope none of my comments or questions seemed disrespectful, because there was no intent in that. Just exploring and interjecting in this dialogue so we can all learn.
Complain about this comment
One more question, maybe my last, I don't know. But according to this subject article of 'honor killing,' where it says that you can get killed by marrying outside your Caste, etc., does the Indian government make it a priority to arrest and convict the murderers for this practice? Or do some people get away with it? And, if so, is it because they overlook it because of cultural acceptance, and possibly because they believe that Karma will get them in the next life anyway? Don't know, just asking.
Complain about this comment
@ktown :Wikipedia is a neutral source.It tries to take into account many opinions.It has citations and it is fair to see any data source to see different viewpoints and mindscapes.
This BLOG is not ,and my comments are NOT the ideal source to learn about India's caste system or the Hindu religion EVEN though I present facts from Hinduism and its tenets.
Some people in urban India who may not have read/understood the tenets as the families have moved to modern education,more exposed to western audience and never got to see Hinduism from inside(as their families did not stress the need for the same) may not appreciate the reasons for the Caste system.An uneducated rural youth may be religious and following the caste and yet may not fully appreciate the System.But I know people from top universities and professions in India and abroad who despite modern education, return to their roots and adhere to the tenets of Hinduism understanding its teachings.
So the correct source to obtain information about Hinduism and Caste system are the renowned institutions of Hinduism with Gurus who appoint a new Guru in their lifetime to continue the purpose of guiding seekers.These institutions that have existed for hundreds of years till today and continue to be the beacon of light when it comes to guiding people and budding scholars.
However I wish NOT to share name of any institution as it will seem more like me preaching an idea than presenting one.Also these institutions are not established to "preach" as it has worldly overtones.That's precisely the reason why Hinduism does not accept "converts" to the religion.It asks a Christian, to be a good Christian and Muslim to be a good Muslim.ie. people of other religions to follow their religions. However if you wish to genuinely learn more, I am confident you will find the right source.
A student is asked to study the tenet and get his interpretations and doubts clarified with the right Guru (teacher and mentor and Spiritual uplifter) than sticking to only his interpretation.
Hence understanding the religion correctly from a right spiritual guide is important than misunderstanding or hearsay.Also the Guru, a person chooses must have various qualifications(like the person should have renounced the world and have attained control of his senses and won over them) and lot of factors.But due to less time and digression from topic I will not go deep into that realm.I hope my answers address some of your doubts.
Complain about this comment
Q4 :" One more question, maybe my last, I don't know. But according to this subject article of 'honor killing,' where it says that you can get killed by marrying outside your Caste, etc., does the Indian government make it a priority to arrest and convict the murderers for this practice? Or do some people get away with it? And, if so, is it because they overlook it because of cultural acceptance, and possibly because they believe that Karma will get them in the next life anyway? Don't know, just asking."
A4:.India is a secular country.Killing any one is a FELONY as per Indian penal code.Indian government has nothing to do with KARMA.On a lighter note we will not see so many corrupt politicians of they understood karma.
And these "honor killers" do not have any cultural/religious acceptance as I demonstrated how violence is not approved in this pacifist religion.People religiously/culturally accept the caste system but NOT the so called "Honor Killing" as it is diabolical.Many such killers have been brought to justice and face trail in a court of law.
The examples quoted in this article with some village bodies(khap panchayats) are an aberration.
Complain about this comment
Q5 :"I suspect it is just a wide range of beliefs and opinions, just as with any religion and secular society around the world, correct?"
A5: There are different interpretations to any religion of even scientific phenomenons.But what should be taken and what should be ignored?
Thats why one should turn to the Vedas(refer comment 296) as people will keep interpreting and saying different things,but the primordial Vedas are the axioms to take any tenet.And the right Guru will only refer to them as again stated that Vedas are indeed ,divine creation.
Complain about this comment
ok, appreciate your comments, time, and insight. I am probably getting ready for bed, as it is late here.
Complain about this comment
Dear Ambbi, I agree with you when you say, “Yes there is a state of disagreement when a parent,thinks otherwise. Parents are the reason for the existence of an individual.Parents decide the name of an individual.Parents help, walk the first steps of individual. Parents help the individual discover the world. They support individuals education. Parents help the individual in any crisis,and play roles of a true friend, companion, family member in happiness and distress and much more. Any individual will count on his parents if not anyone else. And the list goes on.”.
My agreement ends there. That right of the parents is limited to the education of their kids, that give them the ability to differentiate between “right” and “wrong”. When the children become an adult, then that role of the parent ends. Now the parent can repent for the education (both formal and informal) they imparted on their kids in case they do something that the parent do not approve. The parents have NO right to impose their views on their kids when they pass certain age (say 18 or 21). Then it‘s law of the land that must be respected both by the parent and the kids. If the kids marry below the legally permissible limit then law should take care of that and any law abiding parent should help law enforcement in that. The same way any civilized, law abiding parent MUST NOT impose his/her personal interpretation of religion or caste on anyone else, least on his/her own children.
Complain about this comment
Ambi, this is in response to your comment #313.
There is enough reason to oppose that statement you made in that post#313. If you agree that there are different opinions about religion and even about many scientific phenomenon, then why you think that every people will agree to “turn to Vedas” to interpret personal experiences, religious interpretation and “scientific phenomenon”. You may refer to Vedas, but someone else will refer to some other book (e.g Koran, Bible, science text books/reference books etc). And that other person will as right as you are. Then there will be huge chaos. That’s why we follow laws.
Complain about this comment
Jay : The question on children and Parents having a RIGHT to decide on important decisions like marriage in a wards life is already explained in comment 293.
A son/daughter should be eternally grateful to their parents when they have done so much to them.This debt can never be repaid.
I also quoted how this freedom in West has played out.I do not mean domineering parents.Today parents are well-educated or understanding in urban/rural India respectively and their experiences and views should be taken into account by a son/daughter.They have an unquestionable right to tell the "right" and "wrong" to their wards even if the ward is more than 40 years or 50 years old.
I know how a girl and boy will think at 18-20 without much experience of life and its intrigues.I know impudence is more at this age and as they turn 30,they will think differently in issues they believed passionately.
This is normal and a mind-scape of a person will change as they grow old.Thats why insights of the parents are important.I also know old people think,at the dusk of life,get up and weep about their late parents and repent and rue mistakes towards their parents.That mind-scape will come at an old age.
WE ALL ARE INDEBTED TO OUR PARENTS.THEY HAVE AN INEXTRICABLE ROLE IN DECISION MAKING IN OUR LIVES because their concern is the purest form of love and greatest wealth that a person has.And let's ignore the aberrant parents and aberrant children here.They don't set an example,we all know.
Also a religious or a non religious parent certainly will impart his views of religion to his ward.This is normal.when ,a 5 year old as kid asks his father about Lord Ram,A religious father will naturally say ,that Lord Ram is a God worth revering and emulating.A non-religious father may not think religion is important.This is a known phenomena.
You references to "laws" has no relevance when we are debating a moral, religious, ethical issue whether "Parents have role in decision making".Yes they certainly do.Government can make 100 laws to stop tax evasion,but unless a person knows that cheating a government on tax is immoral he can still show fake rent receipts to evade tax and circumvent "laws".Parents have the duty to inculcate such high values and also help,advise and expect obedience from their wards,but in the end they want their wards happiness, Every father would want his son to do better than him professionally and academically.
I do not want to go on and on,but I answered your questions in this and previous comment and I do not agree with your views.
Complain about this comment
Jay : You have not understood the "turn to the Vedas" comment and its context.Its relevance is to decide on what stand on a religious issue(connected with Hinduism) and hence Vedas are axioms to address such an issue.
I did not write "turn to Vedas" for the issue of deciding on "GM crops" in India or framing a policy for power grid expansion to look at state laws.
Complain about this comment
This is a public forum,We all need not agree on all issues and the objective is not convergence but a healthy exchange of views.But it is fair to respect others opinion and agree or disagree ,or write ones own views.
Complain about this comment
If you (AmbivalenceVacillating) are EternalIndia (or many alias) and opened a new ID, then I am not going to argue with you. Let me know that first, before I proceed.
Complain about this comment
You seem to bracket any one who disagrees with you.Who is EternalIndia?
Complain about this comment
Anyways we need not "argue".This forum is to debate not argue.lets not debate also,I see you have already written lot of comments here and I do not agree with you.I see no point in debating.
Complain about this comment
Loved the comments on in this blog.Got to learn new things,thanxx to all
Complain about this comment
To: AmbivalenceVacillating, and others, I have really enjoyed the discussions. Yet, I was still kind of waiting on an answer to a couple of my previous questions. One was, in respect to being reincarnated back as a lower life form, such as an animal or plant, you never told me whether it is/was taught in Hinduism whether the person knows (has conscious awareness) that they are now an animal or plant, or whether they gain that awareness in a future reincarnations. One of the points of the question is learn whether it is believed that the person gains insights about what they did wrong in a previous life, or lives, so as to improve or correct their past behavior, or whether the cycle is just part of the process reaping what one has sowed, irrespect of their learning from it. Now someone may wonder what this has to do with the subject at hand, of 'honor killing.' Well, it is part of gathering knowledge into the insights of Hinduism (not because I seek to be a convert), but to understand the thinking behind what motivates people to do what they do. For example, here in the USA, because criminal prosecution is generally not severe at all, many more crimes are committed simply because there is no fear of punishment. I know this to be a fact, as some prison inmates have even told me that. One said, "In prison, there is cable TV and a law library. I can spend time studying the law or working on my college degree. Why should I be afraid to go to jail or prison." Another said, "They give you three meals a day, and place to sleep. I have a hard time getting that on the outside. I'd rather go back to jail." Yet, some notorious gang members want to go to prison for a stint of time, as that gives them a notch on their belt, and gives them respect among the gangs that they are a tough guy. Now I know that isn't speaking for the majority of inmates in our penal system, but it reflects the belief that committing crime is not feared as it should be in order to make it a very strong deterent from committing crime. So, my point is with the reincarnation, and the topic of 'honor killing' or any other crime or heinous act, is this: "Could there be a commonality in some beliefs about Hinduism that may reflect a lack of fear of retribution, due to those beliefs?" Please don't forget to answer my first questions, about conscious awareness, as I am also very intrigued to know what Hinduism teaches on that. Thanks.
Complain about this comment
While waiting for response to my post 324, I thought about adding some comments to the dialogue between Jay and Ambi (from posts 315 thru 322). Honestly, I agree with a lot that you both said. I think it is good to honor parents, but at the same time, allow the children once grown (after 18 or so) to be free to make their own decisions. Parents certainly are a source of wisdom that can be sought, but doesn't mean the grow child should have to obey the parents wishes all their life. For example, again, I am 46 yr old, white, christian man from the USA. My parents didn't agree to me marrying a black woman back when I was 20 something. I had a choice to make, honor them and be miserable myself, or do what I truly believed was right and marry her anyway. I chose to marry her. And yes, that created conflict for many, many years between my parents and I. However, my decision was not based solely upon my wishes or desires, it was based upon what I believed was even a higher moral and religious standard. My parents beliefs and desires were the the typical white american view at the time. They didn't believe whites should marry blacks. Well, now after 25 years has gone by, much more has been learned about why they opposed my decision. It was obvious at first that racism was the reason, but a lot more has come to surface. Now mind you, my parents and I get along much better now, but they still don't agree. Yet, when I say I made the decision also for a higher moral purpose, I have come realize that people, including parents, are selfishly motivated, and often that doesn't leave them even if they get wiser on many things in life. For one, my decision to marry her anyway, was also based upon breaking down the stereotypes and racism that whites were superior to blacks. Most blacks have long time felt that about whites, with good reason. The other was, it was wrong morally and scripturally from Jesus teachings that whites should exclude backs, or black should exclude whites, etc, just because of race. Doing so perpetuates division, separation, and racism. In the Christian faith, all are equal by race or nationality, etc. My parents were guided more about what others thought around them - fear of the opinions of their friends and relatives. Continuing to exclude someone based on race, social status, etc, only keeps society from advancing in a positive direction. Continuing to do so only perpetuates that certain races, nationalities, social/economic groups are superior to others, and continues to breed the problems of social injustices. Plus, it opposed my faith and the teachings of Jesus, so I had to defer to Him as superior, rather than my parents wishes, which were far inferior.
Complain about this comment
In continuing from my thread in post 325, after all these years, do I regret making that decision? No, because many blacks, whites, hispanics, asians, and other groups have looked at my case as being true example of non-bias between races, and has inspired many. Many have told me that. Of course, not all agree to interracial marriage, but more and more are continuing to accept it. Our country finally electing a black man (really a bi-racial black/white man) has helped bridge a gap, and helped create some more healing of hurts and anymosity in this country between blacks and whites. Many blacks have felt excluded, and some whites have thought blacks were inferior (even in brain power). But Barak Obama has proved to some that blacks are indeed smart and educated. I don't want to get into politics, as I didn't vote for him for other reasons. However, his taking office was indeed a historic moment in this country. Many cried because they finally felt blacks were becoming equal with whites. And, even I did also, just at that significance. Racism has broken down quite a bit, even since I have been alive. It is not all gone, but it is so much better. So that is another reason why I stand by decision to not do what my parents had wished. They were/are not looking at the big picture of cultural continuity and acceptance of all races of people. So, is that not unlike why "honor killing" in India is still practiced, because certain people groups are superior to others? And, that is why it is a "shame" to marry someone of lower class? The highest Christian virtue is love, and love means acceptance without racial, social, or ethnic discrimination.
Complain about this comment
Like with many other traditions, it can outlast modern mind. As sad as it is, human beings are really resistant to evolution when it comes to traditions and religion. Such issues cause a majority of grief on this planet. I don't understand people overanalyzing religious views here - killing someone with intention in non-combat environment has always been and should always be a murder! As for the casts... India still has a long way to go.
Complain about this comment
This honor killing is not only moral/ethical/religious issue or also legal one. In every sense of morality, ethics and religion, caste system is a heinous social evil. No truly educated/learned person can ever support caste system, at least in the sense of dishonouring "lower caste" people (mostly in private discussions but sometimes in public forum too) or refuse many social privileges that is enjoyed by "higher" caste people.
In my interpretation of Hindu religion, caste system is NOT part of the religion but a social tradition or ritual. I am an Indian Hindu, but I renounce caste system and I have no hesitation to consider myself an Hindu.
SO far parents role is concerned, that role is limited till the children is not attainting maturity and unable to take personal decision of his/her own (i.e till certain age- 18 or 21 years). If parents interfere or forcefully impose after that, then it indicates that the education and upbringing of the kids were not upto the mark. Those parents have major share/responsibility in that problem, more than the children itself. They must not be allowed (by law in the first place) to kill those grown-up children who differ in their interpretation of caste and/or religion with their parents/relatives. Then society (other community people, particularly the Hindus) should make those parents ashamed (at least do not make them hero) for the crime they committed by murdering the bride-groom.
We need to understand that it is WE, the Indian Hindus, who have to take the responsibility to eradicate that heinous social evil to help India to develop further (with a majority Hindu population) and Hindu religion to get rid of at least one of its negative aspects. It is also useless to blame anyone else (e.g British or western people, media, atheists etc) for that problem.
Complain about this comment
@ ktown: I will answer the left out questions.Apologies I missed them.
Q5 : "One was, in respect to being reincarnated back as a lower life form, such as an animal or plant, you never told me whether it is/was taught in Hinduism whether the person knows (has conscious awareness) that they are now an animal or plant, or whether they gain that awareness in a future reincarnations.One of the points of the question is learn whether it is believed that the person gains insights about what they did wrong in a previous life, or lives, so as to improve or correct their past behavior, or whether the cycle is just part of the process reaping what one has sowed, irrespect of their learning from it"
A5 : A very good question.A lower life form or even human in a present birth will have NO conscious awareness of their previous births/lives.
As quoted in the illusion of dream example as mentioned in Hindu tenets,one "dream" will have no conscious awareness of the previous "dream".If this were to happen the world world will be an utopia.
But there is an important difference being reborn as a human or any animal/other form.A human get get some clues on his/her previous birth.
A Hindu who is born in any of the 4 caste's never knows if he was "promoted" from a lower life form to a human or was "demoted" from a higher caste to a lower caste.So this means a that person in higher caste should not feel proud for his caste,but must know that he got it by karma and he/she better live up to its duties.A person in lower caste should not feel bad about his caste.He does not know if he got Human birth as a "reward" or as a "punishment".
If a person is born rich into a family,he can realize that some of his good deeds are paying him back.If he has innate talents of learning and art,he can realize him being awarded for past Karma.If a person has fed the poor and hungry in his previous lives,he will not face any shortage of food in his present life.If a person offers "honey" to deities in worship ,he will be reborn with a melodious voice and blessed with musical talent.
If a person stammers or stutters while speaking the he will realize that in his previous lives,as a human ,he had knowledge and he did not impart it to a deserving student.So he is being punished for not imparting his skills to a deserving person by "stammering".If a person uses his speech to offend,to lie,to deceive,to hurt people by his "speech",if threshold of sins related to "speech" cross a threshold level,the person will be born as a BAT to eat and excrete with the mouth.
Similarly if a person keeps his parents happy and takes good care of them,treats them tantamount to God,He need not make any special effort to please God.He will be "blessed" with a very peaceful,prosperous and successful lives in the future.A person who makes his parents endure a "MENTAL SUFFERING",will be awarded with mental suffering in his present or next life with "manifold intensity", he thrust upon his parents.People who suffer a death of a grown son/daughter are said to endure one of the greatest mental agony in human life.It is said to be the result of some one their very serious transgressions in previous lives.
These punishments for transgressions for bad karma and reward for good karma are clearly quoted in Hindu texts and I mentioned very few..
However,to err is human.So Hinduism says that Past Karma is donewith.And transgressions we know,we have committed in the present life,can be "atoned" by "remorse". Some sins can be totally erased by remorse,some can be ameliorated,like a stammering person can overcome stammering.But every sin has a fixed period of punishment and after reaping its fruits,a soul becomes pure.I know people who overcame stammering after living with it for their whole school life.Some sins and merits get beget fruits in the same life some get rewarded in other lives.
An animal/non-human life form is mainly to atone sin.That's why Hindu tenets emphasize the importance of Human birth again and again,stress that one must not squander the opportunity of human birth.Instead one must use it to escape the cycle of births and deaths.I hope I answered little bit.
Complain about this comment
Correction to one sentence in prev comment "A human can get some clues on his/her previous birth."
Complain about this comment
Also let me mention,that if a Hindu makes a significant spiritual progress by yogic and other(there are many) means.He/she can attain the power to see his/her and others "transpired previous life" and foresee the future.But this is for people at who are the vanguards and who have controlled their senses and won over temptation and anger.
Complain about this comment
@ktown :
Q6 : "So, is that not unlike why "honor killing" in India is still practiced, because certain people groups are superior to others? And, that is why it is a "shame" to marry someone of lower class?"
A6: Marrying outside the caste is a breakage of laws of Hindu tenets and thus forbidden by families ,but we know now that Hinduism never supports a "killing".A pacifist religion that cares even for animals/other life forms does not approve of a killing.
I hope now we know a "superior" person by Karma born in a higher caste should not think "superior".Such a feeling will lead to his downfall.We know such killings are no prisms to view the Caste system as people committing a "honor killing" have not understood the religion.
Complain about this comment
@ ktown: In comment 325 , you have shared personal info on personal differences with your parents written on Christian values,inter-racial marriage.I will respond soon.
Complain about this comment
Q7 : "Ok, Amb, so in your last answer A3, why do many Indians say that Caste is outdated and obsolete if it is a total part of the religion of Hinduism? Do many Hindus (or Indians) not subscribe to what you've told me, as some posts early on in this blog indicate that Caste and Hinduism wasn't necessarily intrinsic."
A7 : I have answered it in A1, will re-paste the text.
The Caste System and Hinduism are not with seperate historical roots.The Caste system is clearly quoted in primordial Holy Writ's of Hinduism ... Vedas(most important axiomatic texts,used as refernce for any religious issue) are the authoritative texts,that define the Hindu Caste system.The Vedas are not authored by Human effort(I will leave the question of who authored them for the time being).
So the caste system is not a making of reverends or clergymen.Some people denounce it as they focus on present life and think reincarnation is a myth.It is their opinion and I respect that.But as I said,the right interpretation of Caste system and any other religious issue is referred to the Vedas as it is only natural for people to interpret any issue differently.
I will quote even what Wordweb dictionary defines Hinduism :
"A body of religious and philosophical beliefs and cultural practices native to India and based on a caste system; it is characterized by a belief in reincarnation, by a belief in a supreme being of many forms and natures, by the view that opposing theories are aspects of one eternal truth, and by a desire for liberation from earthly evils"
People would not have accepted the Caste system if it were to be created by a few kings or clergymen.Such a system is impossible to be "imposed" by a ruler.
India has faced Islamic invasion.Some rulers tried to impose Islam or convert people to Islam,levied special taxes on Hindus,but it did not affect Hinduism much as no religious tenet can be "imposed" by force as it requires a mental acceptance.
Caste system,re-incarnation and Karma are hence a part and parcel of Hinduism.
Complain about this comment
This discussing is going towards the same way as EternalIndia/UtopianIndia (his latest ID is U14366952) diverted it. It is becoming more like one’s own interpretation of Hinduism (karma, re-birth, Vedas etc). It is of not much use to let the discussion go to that direction while we are discussing something else.
Complain about this comment
It is quite clear that U14366952 (or EternalIndia, alias Eternal_India and UtopianIndia) is SAME as AmbivalenceVacillating. I am not convinced that he is speaking the truth about his identity (#321, 322), His style of writing and exactly the same way of interpretation of Hinduism is very clear. BBC blog moderators can check his IP address.
Complain about this comment
Ambi said (#317), “I know how a girl and boy will think at 18-20 without much experience of life and its intrigues.I know impudence is more at this age and as they turn 30,they will think differently in issues they believed passionately”.
I know many people who still cannot think in a logical, clear way, in a “matured” way even when they are 30 or 60. Some people never mature. So their parents should interfere with their lives as well, all the time? And who decides and how it is decided that a person cannot take his own decision? If the grown-up kids think that s/he cannot take matured ddecision, s/he can ask suggestion and parents are free to give suggestions. Parents/relatives MUST not impose what they think right on the people whom THEY think cannot take matured decision. Such parents should accept their failure as parents who could not convince their own kids the way they think or interpret their religion or honor.
Complain about this comment
This writer is paid for and sponsored by THIS news channel. The arguments he makes are heavily biased, prejudiced and more in tune with how the West still looks at India and its culture.
This very writer who runs this blog has been doing this for quite some time and all his posts/articles twist the facts in a very myopic way so as to favor the Western prejudices.
Shame on You.
Complain about this comment
Hi Soutik,
Where did you get this mis-information from ?
"There are also some baffling double standards. How else can one explain the fact that men in Haryana routinely "purchase" women for marriage from other, lower castes - and even religion - from other parts of the country because there are too few marriageable girls available in their villages? "
1. There are no marriages within people of same village in Haryana and that is one of the issues in honour killing.
2. I am from a village in Haryana and never heard any case of "Purchasing" a girl, as a matter of fact the society there is caught up badly in "Dowry".
Thanks.
Complain about this comment
After re-reading all 339 comments up to this point, which was a task, I have better understanding on the topic of discussion, and of the opinions of all who posted. And, I can understand why Jay is now trying to make it a point to determine if AmbivalenceVacillating is all those other aliases. Maybe he is, but to be honest, I don't know that it really matters except for honesty sake by Amb. Neverthless, it does appear clear that Amb is deeply religious in all of the Hindu religion, and accepts all the Hindu writings as sacred and Holy, without reservation. And, that Jay leans on the side of a secular modernist that accepts certain of the Hindu tenants, but rejects others as mythology, or obsolete. This seems to be true also since Jay did refer early on to an article on another website about whether God was an invention of man, or man an invention of God, which clearly promotes atheistic views.
Well, here is my comment on all of this, and in respect to whether Caste really does support 'Honor killing,' which is really the purpose for the debate here, and why the argument has gone so long on various Hindu tenants or beliefs. Some may think all of it was pointless, especially between these two gentlemen, but honestly, it shows the reason why we are all here.
Now, I don't only come from a devout Christian mindset, but also from an analytical, secular mindset. It has been my experience that all of our religions worldwide have instilled in “many of us,” a belief that to accept the entire religion and ALL of its tenants, beliefs, and practices is something we have to do without reservation. Yet, even in the Christian faith, for one to say they don't believe in something specific in the Bible, is considered by many as heretical or blasphemous. Jay has made many compelling arguments about the need to abolish the Caste system, and Amb (Eternal India?) has made many compelling arguments about why the Caste system helps promote stable family lives. But I believe Amb's primary reason is because he believes it was instituted to be a part of the Hindu religious system. So, to abolish Caste is to destroy the purity of Hinduism.
Well, let me give you an example from the Christian bible, as Christians believe the Bible to be Holy Writ also. Two New Testament writers, Paul and Peter, both said that slaves should obey their masters, and in doing so, they would be pleasing God. Yet, as a consequence of this, many “so-called” Christians during the USA's beginning, believed that that was an endorsement by God, of the institution of slavery. Even some of the constructors of the Confederate succession, later on, went further to quote that it was God who created the black man to serve the white man, and that they had the right by God to defend against the North (the Union), to preserve their right of slave ownership and expansion of slavery into the western territories (upcoming and newly forming states).
Yet, that was a gross misinterpretation of scripture. New Testament slavery was a result of indebtedness, nothing else. Even Old Testament scriptures said that if someone was kidnapped and forced into slavery, then the one kidnapping them were to be put to death. Well, most Christians have never even read the entire Bible, much less, ever heard a preacher tell them about those things. So consequently, Africans were kidnapped and taken from their land to become American slaves, simply on the idea of endorsement from Peter and Paul’s statement for slaves to obey their masters.
So my point is, the Bible had been used to distort people’s beliefs, and to justify slavery. And, some white Christian people’s distortion of these facts, were reasons also why they didn’t help end the slave trade and practice much earlier, since they saw the Bible as Holy Writ, that surely should not be challenged as divine truth. So, could it just be, that many are justifying social class discrimination (Caste), simply because it appears to be (or is included in) the Hindu writings or scriptures? And, could it be also because ‘Caste’ appears to maintain stability within the family structured system?
Many quote the social ills of the West, such as saying that our divorce rate is high, which further proves that ‘no real social/family structure’ is part and parcel of that problem. Yes, I may even agree that that is true, but does that mean that because you can keep your divorce rate down by pressuring and controlling your sons and daughters of whom to marry, and pressuring them never to divorce, will make the family and society better? Even if you could keep the divorce rate down, and families together, how does discriminating against other Castes support this proposition? Is a lower Caste person going to be less devout as a Hindu? Is a lower Caste person going to be more apt to be unfaithful? Enough said on this point, for now.
Yet, to take up the point against atheism, as Jay was sometimes promoting, it benefits people less to get rid of the belief in God, than it does to believe in God. Yes, I agree that many distorted religious ideas across the globe, throughout history, have done much damage. But atheism has also. Atheism lends itself to the concept that there is no higher authority than man, and no accountability to a higher power. So whatever man decides is right and wrong, becomes right and wrong. And, since man has no real value to God, since there is no God, then man can put on man the value that he so desires. Don’t be fooled to think that atheism is going to value human beings more than religious people across various religions. Those who truly believe in God, and love God, will see that God values mankind, and will in turn, cause them to value them more. It is not atheists that have made the world better, it is the truly devout and religious people who have believed that God has given man eternal value and worth.
Complain about this comment
And, Jay, although you have many compelling arguments about why Caste is bad, and even though I may agree with you on many of those things, do you really believe (as from other early posts), that to be intelligent means not to believe in God? You said that the less intelligent people believe in God simply because they need something to help them get by in life? You did say you were a hardcore Hindu (from post 112). How can you be a hardcore Hindu and not believe in God? Certainly, I can accept that you can believe that many things about God may have been invented by man, but God Himself as an invention, and not real? Am I missing something here?
Complain about this comment
Any society suffering from "manorisltic" values has honour killings ingrained. The sub-continent by far exceeds in trying to find man's honour in women, speaks volumes of religious, and social intolerance.
Complain about this comment
Good points, Ktown.
According to my interpretation of Hindusim, you need not beleive in "god" to become a Hindu. There are some Hindus who believe in "nirwiswarwad" (existence of no God). According to Indian Supreme Court, "Hinduism is a way of life". The word "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" indicates the culture of the people of India as a whole, irrespective of whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc.
Even BJP, the so-called Hindu nationalist party (as described by Western Media). BJP president Nitin Gadkari recently stressed on the need for “a modern idiom to articulate Hindutva for the youth, even as he said that the Supreme Court’s 1995 description of Hindutva (wherein it described it as “a way of life”) must be the touchstone while explaining the idea" : (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/to-attract-youth-gadkari-seeks-new-hindutva/594388/).
A person can be a Hindu even if he strictly adheres to scientific reasoning and logic. I am not against concept of God acceptable so long a person respects laws of the land more than his/her personal interpretation of religion.
In case of caste based honour killing in many parts of India (or anywhere else in the world), anyone can replace the caste by anything else (e.g money, social status, religion, language, food habit, gender (same sex marriage) and we can have the same result. But that does not mean that we need to support ANY of those form of discrimination among people. ALL such forms of discrimination need to be eradicated, at least opposed to have a better, more peaceful and just world.
Complain about this comment
This is just today's news in Indian Experess: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/talibantype-decree-by-khap/642968/
"Khap panchayat, a self-styled community council here has ruled that a boy who had eloped with a girl, hailing from another village, will have to hand over a girl from his own village as punishment or else face dire consequences".
"An upper caste girl from Maicha village had eloped with a lower caste boy from Daula on June 24 leading to a Kangaroo court (Khap Panchyat) asking the boy’s father to send the girl back within a week or else the family would be eliminated".
Complain about this comment
Jay, I totaly don't agree with you because you insulting one religon knowingly.Your intentions don't seems good here.
Complain about this comment
"Because "honour killings" are no longer India's best kept secret."
- Did Indian government try to keep the killing a secret ? Even the Khap had an open decree against same gotra marriage and did not do it behind closed doors.
Even this line proves that the article is prejudiced against India.
"You can invoke the ire of your family and community and get killed if you marry within your caste, outside your caste, within your sub-caste and so on. You can also get killed for marrying outside your religion."
One can invoke the ire of the family,but does not mean that one will get killed.
"Sociologists say the rising number of such killings point to a collision between the old and young, the conservatives and the liberals, between old India"
Very true.We are marching towards a society like the US ,where there is no structure or control in society from the family.A friend of mine relocated to US and his child at the age of 6,now insists on a separate room,his teenage daughter of 13 now wants to live separate and wants no more parental advice.Kids focus less on wanna focus on studies but wanna be a part of the hippy MTV ,ipod generation.She also refused to bow to her visiting grandparents says all it was "useless tradition".
He now plans to move back to India,advices not to let kids grow up in the west.
Complain about this comment
BalVaidya, I am not insulting any religion. You can say what I am saying does not support the same interpretation of the same religion (Hinduism) you like to believe. I am just telling the truth, the way I see it. And moreover I am saying that because the first thing we need to solve a problem is to acknowledge the problem itself, then start searching the root cause of it and then solve it. I never try to bypass the problem and expect that the problem will be solved by itself.
Here we are discussing about a specific incident/crime (Honor killing among Hindus, in the name of caste mainly) that is related to some unfortunate/perverted interpretation of Hindu religion by a section of Indian population and some Hindus worldwide. It is in the best interest of Hindu religion and India (as a country) to eradicate such pathetic social traditions and demeaning rituals for Hinduism.
@ChunMun. I will love to have your comments after you read the blog: “Is India a better place to bring up kids?” : http://jaychatterjee.blogspot.com/2007/12/is-india-better-place-to-bring-up-kids.html
Complain about this comment
@ jay : Before i read the link you pasted, I saw you wrote "to eradicate such pathetic social traditions and demeaning rituals for Hinduism."
You are being disrespectful to the Hindu religion by calling its traditions or rituals .. demeaning and pathetic.I think BalVaidya is write to say that.
You may or may not follow traditions or rituals,but do you have the slightest idea that many people do follow rituals and you calling it as you have makes it offensive?
Complain about this comment
If you can, then just follow the whole discussion and probably you will understand what is "religion", what is "tradition" and what is "ritual" (the way I see it). You will also get an idea about those if you read the blog I sent you. That's why I requested you to read that blog BEFORE you start commenting.
Following "traditions" and "rituals" without understanding its meaning, its social context (when and why that was introduced) and its implications on whole society and the nation is a very important aspect for any country or society or religion to develop or get destroyed. One simple example is Islam. Some people believe in a different interpretation of Islam than many others in many Muslim majority countries like Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arab, Afghanistan etc. That’s why at least some Muslim scholars and educated people like Javed Akhtar, Shabana Azmi, Hamid Ansari etc are becoming more vocal in recent days in opposing the fundamentalist and jihadi interpretation of Islam followed by many. We need to remember that all our actions have consequences. It is true for those Islamic countries/societies, as well as for India and Hindu religion.
Complain about this comment
@ Jay :I can comment BEFORE I read your link as you have written it before the link and my eyes went to that.
I have not read all comments and its more than 300,but i will as i get free.you cannot compare all traditions and rituals with jihad,bowing to parents is not a jihadi tradition,what you seem to suggest is extreme
I would love to read what you have to say in the link, but I think you are wrong to call any tradition or ritual as pathetic as you may or may not believe in it and others may.I think you can admit you were being rude.
More than the question of ritual ,I find ur use of language is inflammatory.
Complain about this comment
I never talk about religion, least to mention my personal view about religion or God, when I talk to an illiterate, poor person who is barely surviving. Probably religion is the ONLY source for such people to bear the burnt of their otherwise harsh life. We (as a society and country) could not provide them almost any meaning to life; almost no food, education, justice etc. We must not take that faith of such people on religion so long we (or the country) are unable to provide the very basics of survival for a decent, respectful life. For them religion is not a mere pastime or social luxury but bare necessity.
But for others it is a different story. We, who claim to be “educated” and for whom religion is more like a pastime and/or social luxury and/or ways to self-gratification (particularly when we feel great by donating money to temples, feeding few poor people etc). We need to validate our faith, convince ourselves in a logical way that what we are following is the best interest for our own physical, mental and spiritual (yes, spiritual) development and then for everyone else of that society/country. We must not get “hurt” when someone opposes a specific interpretation of the same religion or even existence of God. If you have valid logic, then present. In this game there is not and should not be any middle path. The only options available are: either convince your “opponent” or get convinced (depending on strength of one’s logic). I agree and personally follow many aspects of Hinduism or as a matter of fact any religion, including Islam. At the same time I am opposed to many other aspects of the same religions, as you have pointed out.
Complain about this comment
@ Jay : Issue is not you feeling rituals as wrong.You have a right to your view.But it is the way you present it.I have right to feel importance of tradition.
"If you have valid logic, then present. In this game there is not and should not be any middle path."
Well then I don't see any logic in your view.I have valid points as you ask ,but don't wanna reason with u as you are adamant not to accept your mistake of being rude to traditions of religion.
If you had accepted that you will be open minded in seeing people following tradition if they believe so,I would have started reasoning with u,But now i won't.
Complain about this comment
I have no problem for anyone following any tradition/ritual or any mumbo-jumbo in the name of religion so long they remain within the law of the land. Sometimes I need to be little blunt and pointed to present my views. That depends on the wavelength of the audience/person (the language s/he understands) I am presenting to.
I am sorry if my presentation has hurt you personally.
Complain about this comment
Hi All,
I haven't had chance to read ALL the posts, so please forgive me if I repeat something someone has already said...
There is a huge difference between culture and religion and although religion can inform culture, there are sometimes things that are assigned to a religion, which are actually cultural choices.
I don't know any religion (of the most popular ones) that approve of the killing of another person deliberately - please someone correct me if I'm wrong!
If people are claiming that 'honour' killings are religious, then why would a God allow these people to fall in love.
In my opinion these ideals seem mostly about money and reputation - where is the 'honour' in that?
Complain about this comment
Well, Jay, I have to say that I admire your candor, and I appreciate your answers to my questions from our last dialogue in posts 340,341, and 343. Yet, these last few posts have opened up another thread on the topic, in regard to traditional, ritual, and religious sensibilities. I was just thinking of that being part of the core attributes of any society or cultural beliefs and practices, regardless of the religion, even before I read the last few posts, where some people voiced their opinion about feeling insulted.
You definitely are blunt, but it doesn't bother me. Someone may say, "Well, he's not talking about your religion." Yes, that's true, but I have been through all this type of thing for many years. As a matter of fact, I have a very good friend who is Muslim, although I am Christian. We used to work together in another state here in the USA, but now we don't, but we call each other on the phone, and email each other, still as good friends.
We started out arguing about our religions, but then learned to just be friends anyway, regardless if he or I said anything that may have appeared as inflammatory towards each other's perspective faith/religion. The point of all this is to say that we humans beings of the world have to really get over our over-sensitive nature of what we believe is "the word of God," and "the truth," versus other people's version of the truth, or religious traditions, practices, and customs.
This, in my opinion, is exactly why we haven't progressed in our world as much as we should have by now. Certainly, I believe we have progressed, but just not nearly as we could have. For another example, I could easily take offense to many supposed degrading or inflammatory comments about the West, just because I am from the West, and also because I perceive that many prejudices equally exist in the East just as there are put forth toward the West from the East.
Well, we've all done it, and whether we truly realize it or not, we all have our problems - both East and West. Yet, if we are not going to work "together" to be a part of the solution, then we will only end up being a part of the problem.
Religious sensibilities is a facet that we all need to recognize as part of the problem that we face in various religions and countries. If we all are going to get offended, hurt, and as some extremists would do, seek to kill the one who offended their religious sensibilities, then we are not going to accompish much for peace.
And, in regard to our main subject of "Honor killing," I have to truly believe that religious sensibilities is a big part of why "Honor killing," is even considered "Honor" killing in the begin with. Honor? What Honor in killing?
Nearly every religion (including mine) thinks theirs is the superior religion, and most of us all believe that it is the other's that are part of the reason why our society is degrading. Secularists believe that about all religions in general, and all religions believe that about secularists also. So it seems like an endless cycle.
Nevertheless, it is vital to examine and talk about all the issues around the world that we face, and sometimes, it is inevitable if things are said that may appear to be inflammatory, since it is our frustration toward why these problems continue to exist, and why many of us keep ignoring the truth of the issues when confronted, since we are too sensitive.
We all share in these things. So let's all work on getting over our own religious, cultural, and secular sensibilities, so we can make the world a better place for us and future generations. God bless.
Complain about this comment
Hi CatLeah1917, thanks for joining the discussion. Yeah, it probably would help if you read all the posts. It's not necessary, and it is quite time consuming, but I have found it quite educational, as I have read through twice and learned a great deal. Nevertheless, someone of Hindu background may have to address what they believe about your question of why God would allow them to fall in love, as I can only give a Christian perspective, since I am Christian. But I do think it is a good question. My belief is that 'falling in love' is sometimes just infatuation for someone of the opposite sex. They may have truly fallen in love, and were meant to be together, as from God's perspective, but then it arises the question as to how that could happen, if the Caste system (social segregation) was ordained by God to keep individuals marrying within the same Caste, as they apparently fell in love with someone outside that. Again, a good question.
Complain about this comment
Dear Ktown. I could not agree with you more. Religion, every one of them, has a pattern of social evolution. If we follow that, many of the controversies and so-called “mysteries” about religion will be minimised, if not solved altogether. I tried to explain that in my blog, “God created man or man created God”: http://jaychatterjee.blogspot.com/2007/05/god-created-man-or-man-created-god_11.html . I also wrote my views on contemporary “education”; “what is Education?”: http://jaychatterjee.blogspot.com/2007/07/what-is-education.html . These two, seemingly un-related aspects, Education and Religion of our societies are intricately linked. And the problem is not East vs West OR North vs South. It is an universal problem that is present almost everywhere. The form of the conflict or exact reason may be different. Sometimes it is race (Black-white-brown-yellow), sometimes it is caste/sect within a single religion (Shia-Sunni among Muslim or Upper-lower caste among Hindus, or protestant-catholic among Christians etc), sometimes it is the sexual orientation of a person (gay or straight) and many more. Nonetheless all these are just different form of discriminations which we need to address for a better world.
Most of the time we, general people try to defend what we are trained to from the very childhood. So when we hear something different than what we love to believe, we get hurt. If a social reformer or an able politician starts caring about those emotional feelings more then they can not do their job, i.e to reform the society/country. If I can not tolerate heat, I must not stay in kitchen! That’s why I avoid such passionate/heated discussion IN PERSON with majority of people/friends/relatives about something people strongly believe in (e.g religion, caste etc). Public forum like this one is the best way to communicate about such topics.
It is not anyone’s interest to defame ANY religion but to reform it. Even if someone tells me that “god appeared in my dream and TOLD me to kill non-believers (of OUR religion)”, then I will not only laugh but also oppose his day-“dreaming” and “religious” ambition. When the internal control mechanism break down within any religion, fundamentalism and jihadi attitude takes over. That’s one of the reasons for Islamic terrorism world wide. That mainly arises from lack of confidence and logic (both comes from real knowledge, not just educational degrees) to justify what they believe, why they believe. The problem is- more sensible, logical people generally avoid such confrontations. That makes the job of those who believe in more radical and un-ethical interpretation of the religion much easier. In this present world religious intolerance is increasing mainly due lack of honest and/or able governance by many countries/governments. Frustration of those people are taking its toll in form of religious fundamentalism and other violent ways. Countries that are having more transparent governments, are having much less such intolerance. Ranking of India in that scale is not that great. Poverty, illiteracy, break down of effective judiciary are making things worse for the people living in that country. Many may find it offensive or view it as insulting India; but to me these are the opportunities to start taking personal responsibilities to reform MY country, religion, society and also for other places around the world.
Complain about this comment
Hi again, CatLeah1917. I need to add/correct something I said. No, no one has asked that question. You were the first to ask. I read all posts, and do not recall.
Nevertheless, of all the reading and learning I have done, the "Honor killing," is done more from a cultural standpoint than a religious standpoint. A few have debated the issue whether "Caste" is religious or cultural issue, and I believe it is both, since some religious Hindus say it is found in the Hindu writings, and others say it was predated to cultural custom brought to India.
But one of my questions, which I arose in an earlier post (340), was that just because "Caste" may have been referenced in early Hindu writings, did that necessarily make it ordained by God as an institution? I used an illustration from the Christian Bible, in the New Testament, where slavery was mentioned, and how the writers were saying that a slave should obey their masters. I pointed out that that didn't mean that God wanted slavery to continue. But many in the early formation of the USA history, took it to mean that God did, so they justified their enslavement of blacks. I go into greater detail about their misinterpretation of the Bible on that subject, in that post I mentioned.
I personally believe that Hindus has done the same thing, in incorporating a social class discrimination (Caste) into the religion itself, many, many years ago, and have believed it to be a part of the religious order that needs to be preserved - since it is found mentioned in Hindu writings/scriptures.
Nevertheless, I believe those who do the "Honor killings" believe that it is validated based on religion, but probably do it more so because of cultural pride and feeling of superiority than anything else, just as some whites in America many years ago felt justified in lynching a black man for trying to marry a white woman. Many whites considered blacks socially inferior, and unacceptible to join together, and thus, they tried to validate if from misinterpretation of the Bible.
Complain about this comment
Jay, thanks for the response. I appreciate the kind words. I have to work on some other things right now, but may write some more later. And, thanks all for being part of the discussion. It has been worthwhile. Yes, we are making the world a better place.
Complain about this comment
Encouraging development. Reported in Indian Express. "Murder rap for honour killings": http://www.indianexpress.com/news/murder-rap-for-honour-killings/643712/
Those who carry out “honour killings” and families or Khap panchayats who order them will be charged with murder under Section 300 of Indian Penal Code, and awarded either death penalty or life imprisonment.
The Home Ministry has proposed insertion of a fifth clause in Section 300 to define culpable homicide as murder if it is caused by anyone “acting in concert with, or at the behest of, a member of the family or a member of a body or group of the caste, clan or community or caste panchayat in the belief that the victim has brought dishonour or perceived to have brought dishonour upon the family, caste, clan, community or caste panchayat”.
And all members of the body or group of the caste, clan or community or caste panchayat “ordering or abetting the commission of an act by which death is caused shall be deemed to be guilty of having committed such act by virtue of their association with such caste panchayat or body of group of the caste, clan or community”.
Complain about this comment
Hinduism is a form of racial discrimination and should be defined as such by the United Nations in the same way as Zionism was.
Complain about this comment
I am not religious in anyway but understand that's people's faith is very important to them. And in this ever changing world, culture and traditions are also 'sacred'. But certain generations need to understand that the world is a different place to the one it was when certain cultural 'rules' were started.
As the blog states, more women are working in different environments, education is mostly freely available, etc and so society for everyone is different.
Parents who are able to kill their own children defies the laws of nature, in my opinion. I think a study should be done into how much time these parents spend parenting their children... How many mothers commit these killings and what has their relationship been with the children? How much support is there for post natal/partum depression? Both men and woman can suffer from this and does this prevent bonding allowing these killings to be done?
Complain about this comment
Yesterday it was an encouraging news. Today it is not so encouraging. Indian Govt has adopted the usual delaying tactics. I doubt its sincerity to take the bull of (religious fundamentalism) of by its horn for simple vote bank politics. Such hesitation will not help India to become a developed country or a super-power as many of our politicians and Government/corporate sponsored “intellectuals” try to portray, at least in public.
"Honour killing: Govt defers decision on Khap Bill": http://www.indianexpress.com/news/honour-killing-govt-defers-decision-on-khap-bill/643855/
Complain about this comment
Don't nations engage in honor killings? I think they call it war.
Complain about this comment
I had an impression that "honour killing" in India to-day is negligible.India has good standard of education and high level of development, and I felt that caste system has been eradicated from India for ever. But now I shudder to know that crimes like honour killing still happen in otherwise cosmopolitan cities like Delhi.Intermarriages within same religions should be a healthy social institution.Of course, many Hindu boys and girls in India marry outside their castes these days, and some do marry even outside their religions . They are truly secular, but they are not readily accepted by their families. Society also treats them with some apathy.This is due to the social prejudices that are still so prevalent in India.The sooner those are eradicated, the better for the emerging superpower India. The India of Ramayana and Mahabharat must shed off religious and caste prejudices the soonest so that it can better fit in the globalized world.
The intellectuals and reformers condemn honour killings.But due punishment to the crimiminals involved in honour killings is hardly heard of. This is unbecoming modern India.Like Pakistan India should also make a law to deal with the crimes of honour killings.
Complain about this comment
The Honour Killing story is a typical media monster.The media is a revenous beast.When hungry and badly in need of copy,it turns totally indiscriminate in its appetite.The other day even the NYT shot of an erudite editorial on the honour killings in India, offering all sorts of unsolicited advice.
The basic question here is what is the population of India?The next question is how many are killed annually in the country in the so-called honour killings?There are of course those who claim for their own reasons that hundreds of the killings go unreported.But they have little evidence to support this allegation.
So,before the world gets its unmentionables in an unroar,it should calmly ask itself what percentage of the Indian population is killed annually in the honour homicides.
Complain about this comment
8. At 02:03am on 24 Jun 2010, U14366952 wrote: A load of bull manure. How would a Hindu seek forgiveness for this outrage. To take a life would make you on a very low list as far as your Karma is concerned. Grow up. You confuse your religion with stupid cultures that have risen out of those who wish to control you. The present caste system is not representative of how it originally began, when people could move from one caste to another, depending on the work they did. You have perverted your religion with such tripe and perpetuate it by posting such trip. The view of castes in their present state speak to the degradation of your society. A larger majority who are a superstitious people, backward, poor, and uneducated, because the people of "Higher Castes" want it this way. Given the same level playing field, they would displace you. The Caste system is one of the ultimate forms of Human degradation.
Complain about this comment
366. At 00:03am on 15 Jul 2010, lokabandhu wrote: A idiotic statement on the ratio and the relative unimportance of Honor killings due to the size of India.
"So,before the world gets its unmentionables in an unroar,it should calmly ask itself what percentage of the Indian population is killed annually in the honour homicides."
Learn to spell or proof read. It's "uproar", not unroar and "honor", not "honour". To post such an arrogant post and yet project your own ineptitude.
No, the world should ask itself how many idiots are there in India like this one who post moronic statements to equivocate the disparity between the rich and the poor. You had better watch out, the Maoists are taking over large parts of your country and you will find yourself on the bottom of the "Totem pole". (An American Indian symbol.)
C.S. Lewis made a great observation of Hinduism and wy this kind of behavior is tolerated:
"The question was no longer to find the one simply true religion among a thousand religions simply false. It was rather, “Where has religion reached its true maturity? Where, if anywhere, have the hints of all Paganism been fulfilled?”
"...the intellect and the conscience, as well as the orgy and the ritual, must be our guide.... Paganism had been only the childhood of religion. Where was the thing fully grown? (The Everlasting Man was helping me here.) There were really only two answers possible: either in Hinduism or in Christianity..." [235]
"But Hinduism seemed to have two disqualifications. For one thing, it appeared to be not so much a moralized and philosophical maturity of Paganism as a mere oil-and-water coexistence... with Paganism.... And secondly, there was no such historical claim as in Christianity. I was by now too experienced in literary criticism to regard the Gospels as myths. They had not the mythical taste...."
"And no person was like the Person it depicted; as real... yet also numinous, lit by a light from beyond the world, a god.... This is not 'a religion,' nor 'a philosophy.' It is the summing up and actuality of them all."
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. If you tried to relate and project yourself into the people who have been murdered,by their so called "loved" ones, a concept that is not exactly concretely expressed in Hinduism, you, as an individual, could have never written such a callous comment. If you could comprehend it to it's fullest potential, you would not longer be able to be a Hindu as what would tie you to the murdered ones would show that you are, in fact, no different. This is not an Hindu tenant. (from a former person who suffered through Hinduism and Buddhism).
Complain about this comment
There are a lot of false cultural relativism (such as the first comment, the author of this article is Indian, lives in India, and I've lived in India, my fiance is Indian, and the mainstream Indian culture does not approve of so-called 'honor killings'...and in what way is premeditated murder morally subjective?) and tu quoque (other people kill) arguments.
The question is not whether or not other cultures have morally repugnant killings, but the specific issue of honor killings in India. Any way you slice it, it is a violation of human rights and premeditated murder. It is a violation of Indian law. Indian law gives adults the free choice of their marital partner (so long as it is a same sex marriage) and murder is explicitly illegal.
While the author's emphasis on Hinduism is understandable as Hinduism is the majority religion in India, the author neglects to mention the issue in regards to other religions - Islam and Sikhism come to mind. Punjab, which the author mentions, is largely Sikh.
Complain about this comment
Ok I have just read a fair few of these comments and I felt that there has been a balanced argument with both sides putting their case across, however that all changed when I read the following
"According to the International Vegetarian Union, if we produce 1 kg of soybean = it would take 2000 tons of water. While on the same hand, if we want to produce 1 kg of "BEEF" it would take 100,000 tons of water."
What a load of crap, does the poster of this comment seriously expect anyone to believe this drivel ? The fact that this comes from the International Vegetarian Union just makes it even less believable.
Complain about this comment
@ No. 8 "U14366952" :
You Fascist lunatic
Mao got one thing right. Religion is POISON.
I am a lapsed Hindu Brahmin by the way. And I LOVE my beef.
Complain about this comment
The so-called 'Honor-Killings' of innocent young people who inter-marry within and outside prescribed norms of patriarchal structures have more to do with economics than 'honor'. Technically the ones who are shamed are the men(fathers, brothers and husbands) who have failed in their duty to protect their daughters from boys who apparently fall in love with them without much knowledge and are clueless of how the caste dynamics operate.
Therefore my argument is that:
1. There is a confusion about property transaction in case the couple gets married without the family and clan consent. Where will the money and property and power move?
2. It perpetuates the purity/pollution dualism of caste that leads to the issue of the daughters' potential to tamper with and pollute the caste by crossing the boundary set by the family, whether she marries outside or within the caste(in some cases).
3. This explains the reason why men avenge with anger and hatred to kill the couple to protect the 'purity and honor' of their caste. Otherwise the offspring will have a powerful sense of belonging that could threaten the very fabric of the society/caste and the men who failed to protect their daughters.
4. However, these norms are human constructs with a lot of discriminatory and oppressive strategies. They need to be condemned strongly. Most of our religious texts are written with a highly patriarchal motive restricting and controlling women's bodies and sexualities.
5. Marriage is a human construct designed to regulate human sexual and economic behavior. Whereas, sexuality is a Divine construct that can be regulated but not controlled. Therefore mens' effort to "protect the chastity and purity" of daughters is futile because it is a divine category that no human law can protect. You cannot use a man-made norm to control a god-made category.
Complain about this comment
371. At 2:35pm on 19 Jul 2010, rohan17286 wrote:
@ No. 8 "U14366952" :
You Fascist lunatic
Mao got one thing right. Religion is POISON.
I am a lapsed Hindu Brahmin by the way. And I LOVE my beef.
------------------------------------------------------
I am a proud Hindu and i too love to eat beef, but that son is the point of hinduism, you can get lost in the translation or you can realise that Hinduism base is that your destiny and choices are your own and to practice is to maintain a level of karma, good over bad, and if teh direct influence of me eating meat has resulted in negative energy over the person within my circle then yes its wrong, and its wrong to kill a cow if your feeding your family milk and kurd! but i do neither, but do in the right circles, do you get it, rather than being ignorant and selfhating????
Complain about this comment
cultures over thousands of years can get confusing, i mean Moses went up the mountain adn three major religions spouted different versions of what he said, with Hinduism being far older, the interpretation of a non literate mass population has resulted in soem kind of chinese whispers and self preservation with the mogul invasion! Hinduism is a very simple religion of practice good karma over bad, very simple, but ritual has taken precedence! well atleast we dont put other religions down and try to ethnically cleanse others! no crusades, terrorism or occupation tainting our blood!
Complain about this comment
the present article reflects the true catastrophic picture of the Indian social scenario today. either with respect to Caste system or about the erroneous cultural assumptions, biswas got most things right.
I can see some of the patriotic commentators in this page, but their patriotism can in no way prevent us from seeing clearly the devastating social structures playing their predominant role in Indian society. as a great learner of indian social system - from remote village to a metropol - I can witness many Indias here: 'a Vedic India' where Tantras and mantras still form larger than life issues, 'a Manu India' where women submission and {Kulamaryada}-caste respect still have their own significance at the expense of many innocent lives, 'a medieval India' where whale and feudalism over-rule every democratic consideration, and last but not least 'a self constructed 19th century antimodern-india' where anything and everything that comes from the West is treated more than an abomination. of all these Indias, there is a peculiarly opportunist india consisting of highly educated gentlemen and noble ladies. they will have no issues to send their children abroad and get for them the best education available there, but fearcely resist even a slightest possibility of the hitherto sections of the society having access to the dignified life on their own soil. I take pains to express these lines, which might in some sense appear out of the context, precisely because all these processes take place under the guise of "Sanskriti"-culture. what is being increasingly reported in the media recently is neither a sudden-burst opposition between tradition and modernity nor an exceptional state of affairs, rather it has been part and partial of indian society but which largely remained unreported so far.
the commentator is a research Scholar at Centre for the Study of Social Systems/School of Social Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi. he will be more than happy to receive comments of all kinds. [Personal details removed by Moderator]
Complain about this comment
Well, I agree that India (and other nations) should do the right thing here. Honor killings are not only reprehensible, but a violation of human rights.
Complain about this comment
honor killing is also very prevailent in pakistan and thruout the entire muslim world. this doesn't surprise me since these people are known for their lack of respect for human life or human rights. they are also the worlds biggest supporters and exporters of terrorism. the main reasons are religion, eliteism, lack of education. and ignorance associated with being just out of the dark ages.
Complain about this comment
eating beef is a big no no in Hindusim, please do not consider yourself as Hindu anymore if you wish to indulge in beef eating
Jay, seems to be a maoist fool, ridiculing everything that is Hindu, thats their strategy.
Complain about this comment
Soutik BISWAS, still happy in being the white mans slave. self proclaimed India hater this guy should be made jobless at the very first opportunity
Complain about this comment
IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS ALL CRAZY. IN THE NAME OF CULTURE, MATURED COUPLES ARE KILLED...NO CULTURE TEACHES HATRED AND IGNORANCE..I THINK LACK OF EDUCATION AND FAKE EGO'S OF PEOPLE IS PROVING FATAL...IN SOME TOWNS A GIRL CANT EVEN GO OUT AFTER 7 P.M...IF SHE STEPS OUT, EVETEASING IS COMMON AND MOST OV THE EAVE TEASERS ARE THESE PEOPLE, WHO KILL THEM...
PEOPLE THINK THAT IF THERE GIRL HAS MARRIED A GUY BY HERSELF, THEY WILL BE ASHAMED IN THE SOCIETY....ACTUALLY THE CULTURE IS MALE DOMINATED ....WOMEN ARE TREATED INFEERIOR ,THEY CANT TAKE THERE OWN DECISIONS...EVERY YEAR THOUSANDS OF COUPLE COMMIT SUICIDE BECAUSE THEY COULDNOT GET THERE LOVE ,BECAUSE OF THESE RITUALS....
Complain about this comment
Tom says "...the article, ... suffers from western prejudice and cultural nuances, completely fails in bringing the point about the Indian values and perspective." Apparently, it's more honorable to murder someone than it is to love someone? Hmmm, is that really the world you want to live in? That you want your children to live in?
The point couldn't be more clear, Tom. Our right to life should not be limited to certain geographic locations on the planet - denied by neither lines on a map nor the ignorance of hate-filled individuals with ancient beliefs. No one but the LAW (applied justly) has the right to take a life. Any other "perspective" is either far too narrow or far too corrupt for a diverse planet of 6 billion +.
Complain about this comment
Writers / Bloggers from BBC should do more research before writing the articles about social practices in India.
There could be many bad practices in Indian society but they are not the part of Indian Religion, To name a few, honor killing, Sati Custom etc. These bad practices have been infiltrated in Indian society after the Islamic invasion. Sati custom has never been practiced in India prior to the mughal / Islamic Invasion; we have two big written accounts Mahabharata and Ramayana to compare with. As Islam allows enslavement of non Muslim females and child, thus women of those times decided to commit suicide ( Johar - by throwing oneself in fire after male members got killed in war) instead of falling into the hands of Invaders and from becoming the sex slaves.(Quran 4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (War Booty or Sex Slave).
Similarly Honor killing has never been part of the Indian religion/society. Honor killing is rarely seen, mainly in parts closer to Delhi which was ruled by Islamic Rulers for centuries. Honor killing is fully endorsed and is part of the Holy Islamic Sunnah (ww.atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/honor_killings/ ).
As we all know that India has been exposed to different foreign cultures and thus also acquired many practices (Good or Bad) from those cultures in past
Complain about this comment
1 billion people, living in a cramped space (physically and mentally) - this cant be good for the world.
Those that discount the hate factor that exists in India, may repent when hate disrupts the India growth story. Social fault lines run deep and will erupt unexpectedly like an earthquake.
Love is temporary, hate is permanent in India (caste, religion, language, skin colour - take your pick)
Complain about this comment
Its a good thing that Indians are actually discussing the problems in society. Fixing something requires acceptance of the fact that a problem actually exists.
In addition to the honor killings, there is also the issue of rape to which Indian cops turn a blind eye.
"A woman gets raped every half an hour in India. So what in the world is keeping women silent about this heinous crime?"
http://www.global-sisterhood-network.org/content/view/498/76/
Swiss diplomat raped in Delhi
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3193820.stm
Only recently has the western media actually started publishing news about the rapes/ killings in Goa.
Perhaps there is a connection between honor killings and rapes.
Complain about this comment
@ Kamal:- As Islam allows enslavement of non Muslim females and child, thus women of those times decided to commit suicide ( Johar - by throwing oneself in fire after male members got killed in war) instead of falling into the hands of Invaders and from becoming the sex slaves.(Quran 4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (War Booty or Sex Slave).
So you mean to allude that the Indian men of today, if not the same, are worse than the Islamic / Mughal invaders from 1521? If Indian society (read people interacting with the the widow) were to give the widow a helping hand, why would she need to kill herself on her husbands funeral pyre? Surely the widow is not swamped by images of invaders who would take her away. When she contemplates her fate surrounded by her unforgiving family, fellow villagers and priests etc, that is the impetus for her to end her life.
You are using historical fiction to justify something still prevalent in society. Faulty logic!
Complain about this comment
@abc
“You are using historical fiction to justify something still prevalent in society. Faulty logic!”
LOL :-), Looks like, you misunderstood my Comment.
I agree with you, Indian People, who after understanding that these bad practices has nothing to do with their own culture/religion, if they still practice the SATI and Honor killing are worse than Islamic / Mughal invaders from 12th century onwards, It does not matter if honor killing is endorsed in sharia ruled countries. How many cases of SATI do you hear these days, keeping in mind 1 billion+ population? Honor killings rarely take place mainly in areas near to Delhi which was ruled by Mughals for long time, why? There were also many big wars (Kalinga war, war with Alexander etc) before Islamic Invasion, why do not we have cases where Female members committed mass suicide as we see during the mughal invasion? The circumstances were different during the time of Islamic Invasion as stated in the following divine verses (Divine unchangeable command for Invaders)
Qur’an 8:40 “If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know that Allah is your Supporter. And know that one fifth of all the BOOTY you take belongs to Allah, and to the Messenger, and for the near relatives (of the Messenger).”
& 9:25 “By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta’if (unbelievers) so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant.”
I am not justifying anything, just presenting the root cause of Bad practices infiltrated in to the Indian society, which has nothing to do with ancient culture. Government need to do everything in their power to stop these things (Bad practices). In Sweden, there are huge rise in Rape cases where Immigrant(Mainly from Somalia) are the culprits, why?
Complain about this comment
May be it is the writer's way of get attention by overlapping zealous religious beliefs with marriage or love affairs. These are old tactics. Most people in India and abroad would ignore these so called claims of honor killings. The writer would realize what true honor killing would be, if he would have publish such article in some other part of the world where religious fanatics are in charge. The writer must feel honored and grateful that he somehow may be associated with Indians.
Its one thing to make the article interesting for the readers, yet it is irresponsible to publish on a such reputable news platform.
BBC news got some credibility issues, if it bleeds it leads in the USA, writer in BBC may think it leads if its provocative or inflammatory.
I grew up in rural India and went on to Graduate studies in early eighties, in those days I came across so many inter-cast, inter-racial and inter-class marriages among Brahmins and Chaudhries or Banias and Patels or Muslims and Xatrias. Than again, who am I to generalize on these marriages?
May be the writer subscribe to some fictions on Zee TV or a news magazine such as “WWN (weekly world news)” Most of the Indians know the cast system lives on in some western minds, fictional novels, TV shows and on some in writers who wants to get ahead at any cost.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
View these comments in RSS