Why the Hindu right wing loves Mr Jinnah
Why are some of India's Hindu nationalist leaders in love with Mohammed Ali Jinnah? The founder of Pakistan is a much reviled man in India, treated as a minor conspiratorial figure, and considered to be the architect of the bloody partition of the country on religious lines in 1947. Even the secular Congress party abhors him.
So when leaders of the Hindu right sing praises for Mr Jinnah, they stir up a hornet's nest. Four years ago, the leader of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), LK Advani, who led a successful Hindu revivalist movement in the early 1990s, praised the founder of Pakistan during a visit to the country. This raised the hackles of Hindu fellow travellers and invited scorn from the Congress party. The BJP leader even offered to put in his papers after the kerfuffle.
Now Jaswant Singh, a doughty senior party leader and former finance and external affairs minister, who counts people like Strobe Talbott as his friends and chess, golf and polo as his pursuits, has praised Mr Jinnah as a "self made man" who "created something out of nothing and single-handedly stood up against the might of the Congress party and against the British who didn't really like him." He has expanded on his thesis in his new, unimaginatively titled 669-page book Jinnah: India-Partition- Independence, which released this week.
What is surprising is Mr Singh's defence of Mr Jinnah in a TV interview in the run-up to the book release where he is even more effusive in his praise of the Quaid-e-Azam (Great Leader) as Mr Jinnah is remembered as in his homeland. He demolishes the popular Indian historiography of Mr Jinnah being a Hindu-basher and a born demagogue. "That certainly he was not," says the BJP leader. "His principal disagreement was with the Congress party. Repeatedly he says and he says this even in his last statements to the press and to the constituent Assembly of Pakistan."
Then Mr Singh goes on to say that India misunderstood Mr Jinnah "because we needed to create a demon". He insists the Congress party's majoritarian instincts were responsible for the federalist Mr Jinnah turning away from the idea of India and asking for a separate nation for Muslims.
Yet Mr Jinnah began his political career with the Congress and until after World War I remained India's best "ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity". Biographer Stanley Wolpert says he was as "as enigmatic as Gandhi, more powerful than Nehru, and one of the most charismatic leaders and least known personalities". Historians like Patrick French believe that though Mr Jinnah "remained a secularist of sorts until his death, but also at times... willing to use communal antagonism in a strategic way."
Listen to Mr Jinnah before the formation of Pakistan, raising the spectre of Hindu majoritaranism:
"We Muslims have got everything - brains, intelligence, capacity and courage- virtues that nations must possess. But two things are lacking, and I want you to concentrate your attention on these. One thing is that foreign domination from without and Hindu domination here, particularly on our economic life that has caused a certain degeneration of these virtues in us."
Or listen to him after a meeting with Egyptian and Palestinian Arab leaders in 1946:
"I told them of the danger that a Hindu empire would represent for the Middle-East... If a Hindu empire is achieved, it will mean the end of Islam in India, and even in other Muslim countries."
At the same time, it is true that Mr Jinnah felt short changed by the Congress. On 26 July 1946, Jinnah and his working committee spoke about Muslim India having
"exhausted, without success, all efforts to find a peaceful solution of the Indian problem by compromise and constitutional means; and whereas the Congress is bent upon setting up Caste-Hindu Raj in India with the connivance of the British..."
In Mr Singh's book, Jawaharlal Nehru and the Congress emerge as some of the principal architects of the partition. He writes that the Congress "overestimated its strength, its influence, and its leaders were extremely reluctant to accept Jinnah as the leader of just not the Muslim League but eventually of most Muslims in India".
There is some truth in all this. But in trying to say that Mr Nehru and Congress were largely responsible for partition, Mr Singh is possibly ignoring the larger political realities of the time. Mr Jinnah positioned himself as the "sole spokesman of Pakistan", but his party Muslim League which led the Pakistan movement, won the last election in 1946 in British India with the number of Muslim voters at significantly no more than 10 to 12% of the total Muslim population in that year. As many historians say, the nation of Pakistan came into being "even before its mass base was established." The fault lines have widened since.
But to return to the original question, why did Mr Singh write this book? Does it have to do with his wider political ambitions? He is a self-professed liberal in a party of hawks. In 1992, at the zenith of the BJP's rathyatra (motorised chariot) movement to whip up support for a temple at Ayodhya, Mr Singh did not attend a single function on the road. His induction into the cabinet in the late 1990s was vetoed once by the party's ideological fountainhead, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS).
With his mentor and BJP's only pan-Indian leader and former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee fading out and Mr Advani himself weakened by political defeat and party infighting, is Mr Singh trying to position himself as a liberal party leader-paterfamilias that Mr Vajpayee once occupied? It is difficult to say.
In a sense, one could argue, Mr Singh kills two birds with one stone with his revisionist take on the partition - as a senior leader of the main opposition party, he goes for the Congress's jugular by holding it responsible for the partition along with Mr Jinnah; and by heaping encomiums on Mr Jinnah, he endears himself to Indian Muslims, who have been lukewarm to the BJP's overtures. Is Mohammed Ali Jinnah a way for Mr Singh to reach out to Muslims and push his political ambitions in a party which appears to have lost its way in modern India? We will know in the days ahead.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~28~RS~)
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I highly condemn the " bloody partition of the country on religious lines in 1947 ". Pakistan Zindabad!!!!
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Now we all know how easily stats can be used to twist facts. By saying that and i quote
"Muslim League which led the Pakistan movement, won the last election in 1946 in British India with the number of Muslim voters at significantly no more than 10 to 12% of the total Muslim population in that year."
Mr. Biswas is trying to give an impression that Only 10% of Indian Muslims voted for Muslim League and independence while the fact is that Muslim Leagues won all 30 of National assembly seats reserved for Muslims in the 1946 election and won 445 out of a total 490 Muslim seats in lower assemblys, which gave them 100% representation rights for the Muslims in India. That 10-12% figure is derived because only 35%-40% of population is allowed to vote because of age restrictions and also voter turn out is always low in Muslim areas.
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The reality is that the intransigent attitude of the majority Congress party led by Gandhi and Nehru caused Jinnah to finally settle for an "independent" Pakistan. The March 23, 1940 resolution was deliberately vaguely worded regarding the status of a separate homeland for the Muslims of India; this meant that there was still time for a united India, provided various safeguards were provided to protect the minority Muslims in a democratic India sure to be run by the majority caste Hindus.
Jinnah remained tightly lipped about his idea of a "Pakistan" till the Jinnah Gandhi talks in September, 1944. After the unsuccessful Jinnah-Gandhi talks, Jinnah was convinced that the "Pakistan" scheme was the only way to successfully protect the Muslim minority in India - yet he was still willing to give a united India a try but Nehru and other Congress leaders forced his hand to change his demand for an independent "Pakistan" outside the Indian union.
In Jinnah's own words, "One India is an impossible realization - it will inevitably mean that the Muslim will be transferred from the domination of the British to the caste Hindu rule.... Freedom must mean freedom both from British exploitation and Hindu domination. 100 millions Muslims will never agree merely to the change of the masters." Over sixty years on, it is a matter of opinion and conjecture.
Regardless, Jinnah's scheme still wished for a relationship between India and Pakistan similar to that of the USA and Canada - something both sides have failed to achieve.
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Identification of any sort whether it is nationalistic or religious or ideological or otherwise seems to be the reason for division and conflict. Wonder why human beings across the planet seemingly intelligent would always want to identify to something, does it give any security? Definitely not, looking at the example of creation of Pakistan out of India. It added more misery not only within Pakistan and Indian subcontinent, but the whole world due to the terrorism being emanated.
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As an Indian, I'd have deplored the division of the country along sectarian lines had I been alive in the 1940s. However, in retropspect I think it was the best thing that could have happened to an Independent India! Looking at what has become of Pakistan today, I shudder at the thought of modern India getting stuck with teeming fundamentalists prone to violence and determined to stay in the dark ages. It is better for us to let Pakistan deal with it as they see fit. It frees us to modernize without getting bogged down in a religious fratricide. If Mr. Singh's thesis that Nehru is more to "blame" for creation of Pakistan than Jinnah is correct, then I must tip my hat to India's first Prime Minister. He was onto something that Gandhi completely missed. But if it was Jinnah's clever machinations that divided British India -- well, then he got what he asked for. As they say, sometimes you must be careful what you ask for!
I wish Pakistan all the best in its struggle to stay afloat as a viable state. The prospects of that dim hourly. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if that country implodes in the next few years and becomes an Asian Somalia. "Pakistan Zindabad!!!" not withstanding.
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Everyone comes up with their own philosphy of reasons behind indian partition. If i read all historians on the subject i will find different answers. Is it possible for the British goverment to release a white paper on the indian partition and the people responsible for the massacre of millions of people from both countries. We should observe a silence on our independence days in the respect of the people who lost their lives.
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Regardless of what his party thinks of him or what the Congress Party thinks, there's a lot of truth in what Jaswant Singh has said/written. Jinnah was a great Indian leader and fought alongside all the other great freedom-fighters of the day to rid India of British rule. However, in the '30s and '40s he felt he was getting alienated by Nehru, the Congress Party and may be even Gandhi and realised that that may be the predicament of all Muslims in an independent India. It is by this feeling of alienation that he fronted up the Muslim League for the creation of Pakistan. His intent and reasons were noble and legitimate. Whether partition was the correct mean-to-an-end is left to much debate. I have no doubt that without partition, India would have been an even greater country with a lot more peace in the entire region. Muslims would have been absolutely fine: they would barely be a minority with 500m out of 1400m people in India-Pakistan-Bangladesh today being Muslims. However, in a way Partition was inevitable because the British had planned it right from 1857; they are the real culprits.
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Indians just want a pantomine villian, someone to blame and its easy to blame Jinnah, just see what a joke Jinnah's portrayal was in Attenborough's film Gandhi. Yes Jinnah was ultimately resposnible for the partition of India but he had a lot help from Nehru and Congress and that is something Indians don't get.
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Anyone who thinks Jinnah and/or Nehru were the architects of Indian partition is really being short-sighted. The Brits were the real architects, as ProMal mentioned earlier. Think about it this way. Why would Britain have wanted a united India? It would've weakened her globally. Besides, almost 300 years of hegemony and leave behind a strong country?
Jinnah, Nehru, Gandhi and a host of other leaders were all educated in Britain; seems to me that they were just a rebellious extension of the centre in London. Except for Gandhi, they lived like kings; including Gandhi, they all behaved like kings. These were the elite of occupied India that benefited from the status quo. They and the Brits implicitly decided the narrative of Partition. And guess what? They succeeded. Rest assured that the subcontinent will still be talking along the same narrative in another 60 years.
Let's just move on with our lives and realise that all borders are random, existing to sustain those in power.
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raziasultan wrote:
Indians just want a pantomine villian, someone to blame and its easy to blame Jinnah, just see what a joke Jinnah's portrayal was in Attenborough's film Gandhi
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Last I checked Attenborough was British....has that changed recently?
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ProMal wrote:
However, in a way Partition was inevitable because the British had planned it right from 1857; they are the real culprits.
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Hmmmm. I guess some never tire of blaming the Brits for just about everything they wished India wasn't. Pray, where can I get hold of any document from that period that talks about dividing India into a Hindu and a Muslim entity? After the events of 1857, the victorious Brits were planning to rule India for a long time to come and, perhaps, hoped make it a "follower to Christ". Sure, at times they used the religious divide between the Hindus and Muslims to their advantage -- however, they DID NOT cause the rift. The religious animosity between the two communities predates (even if people of both faiths existed side by side for hundreds of years in India) long before the Brits decided to sail down to buy spices, etc. Blaming them for the eventual partition of India is naive at best.
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injun_nc wrote:
Blaming them for the eventual partition of India is naive at best.
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"Well said". It all boils down to leaders who handled partition. Difference were there even before british set its eye on India. But they manipulated to their best interest.
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Come on Soutik give Jinnah a break. Mr. Singh is not the first person in India who has arrived at this particular conclusion. He has been able to draw these inferences after what he says took five years for him to research his subject. Before him Mr. A.R. Seervai from Maharashtra ("Divison of India" - myth and reality I think is the name of his book)and Mr. Mujumdar from Bengal ("Gandhi and Jinnah" fame) espoused similar ideas after they went through the trouble of removing blinkers from their eyes and sat down to read the relevant material. Mr. Singh rightly said in his interview with the TV channels -quoted in the print media yesterday- that he has put down the facts as he saw them and that anybody is welcome to make a case for the opposite position by writing a cogent, factual account of the events of that era with their interpretation. Mr Biswas would do well to rise above his prejudices and find out what really happened rather than repeat tired old cliches coined to achieve certain results.
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I think Mr. Soutik Biswas presents a biased view of history.
Pakistan was the result of a constitutional freedom struggle by a minority in India that eventually turned separatist in 1946. Whether the minority had a "minority" status on religious, ethnic, cultural, or social class grounds is irrelevant.
If Jinnah wanted to create a separate state from the get go, I don't think he would have agreed to and signed proposals of the Cabinet Mission in 1946 - whose proposals aimed at freedom along religious lines within a united India. It was Jawaharlal Nehru who first agreed and then rescinded the agreement. So, I don't see the argument of a separatist minded-leader in Jinnah very valid.
Besides, the introduction of religious symbolism in the independence movement is far heavily attributed to Gandhi than any other leader in the sub-continent.
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To start off I would like to make a suggestion to the BBC here. How about encouraging some Pakistani correspondents to blog on the website, to give their ‘take on life’? It is indeed very surprising to see the South Asian page on the website almost always filled with the mishappening in Pakistan, where as little mention is made of the same in a country with a population of more than a billion people? Surely, the ridiculously discriminating caste system, the ancient traditions such as ‘satti’, the marriage of people to dogs and trees make for juicier news doesn’t it? I am compelled to ask, is it a part of a bigger conspiracy to always bog down Pakistan?
As for my Indian counterparts who have very typically labelled Pakistan a terrorist country. Terrorism is more common in the cities, streets and houses of India than what is perceived in Pakistan. The gangs problems, the very popular Muslim – Hindu disputes, the poverty and an ever growing population, to name a few. Surely life in Indian is no better than its neighbour Pakistan. And besides we all know who encourages and finances the suicide attacks in our cities of Pakistan, the ‘Indian Agencies’ as a result of the very bitterness that has been portrayed through this blog. The independence of Pakistan.
Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a great man. It takes a great man to achieve great things such as a separate homeland to safeguard the interest and future of the people of his believe and faith. The present Indians inherited a functioning system of government, running industries, a stable economy, in which the same man, M Ali Jinnah, played a pivotal role.
Our people migrated to a new country to make a new start. Our people were brave then, they are brave now as we still continue to face difficulties but the passion in our hearts for our beloved country has never been worn. It is not a terrorist country, it is an aftermath of the manipulative American Policies.
Pakistan Zindabad!
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Mr. Biswas asserts: ..by heaping encomiums on Mr Jinnah, he (Mr. J. Singh) endears himself to Indian Muslims.
In other words, the path to power in India is via Muslim vote which is predicated on how well India behaves with Pakistan, an "Enemy" country!!!
Of course, in that Mr. Biswas is not wrong, for he here merely repeats what Indian politics has long internalized vis-a-vis the Muslim vote, the highly coveted, critical swing vote. Thus, election after elections, it is dejavu all over again over just one issue: Muslim vote. And every election we see the spectacle of politicians outbidding one another as to who is more Muslim-friendly. The Hindu vote being hopelessly fragmented, it is quite easy for politicians and the media to chide Hindus if they try to get attention. So, if Congress party subsidizes trips to Mecca for Indian Muslims, the BJP must raise up the subsidy. If BJP starts one train a week between India and Pakistan, Congress must run 3 trains, Hindus' safety be damned. This is Indian politics. Strangely, the Hindus are OK with that, silently preparing for another partition because the Muslim numbers in India and the attendant politics are now roughly same as it existed in 1947, the year of India's "indpendence".
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anitanadeem wrote:
I think Mr. Soutik Biswas presents a biased view of history.
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If we have learned anything through the ages, it is that "any" view of history will be invariably biased. There is nothing like a truly objective history. Its narrative is a product of the historian's interests, grievances, and background. Wasn't it Churchill who said "History will be kind to me. For I intend to write it"? Once you realize that, you cease to get indignant about any "historical account" -- no matter how outrageous. Instead, one should ask the following questions: What was the outcome? What followed next? Did it turn out to be good or bad from the perspective of my world-view? And, where is it heading now?
Given that, does it really matter at this time what "Pakistan was a result of"? Who gives a flying hoot whether it was Jinnah or Nehru or Mountbatten or the Giant Silver Back Gorrila that created Pakistan? The facts on the ground are that there is a Pakistan and there is an India. They both now have 62 years of independent existence under their belts. One is on the brink of failure and the other -- despite all its serious internal challenges, is flirting with greatness. Rest is just useless babble.
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Shilpy wrote:
Strangely, the Hindus are OK with that, silently preparing for another partition because the Muslim numbers in India and the attendant politics are now roughly same as it existed in 1947, the year of India's "indpendence"
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I say, do not despair. India will not fragment further as long as its economic engine continues to puff at 8% to 10% annual growth. At the end of the day, religions matter less these days than access to opportunities and resources. US is a living testament to that fact. It is an incredibly diverse country that has accomodated myriad races and religions, and has kept natural faultlines in its population in check through continuous prosperity. Only when competition for resources gets tough that possibilities of partition etc. arise. Indian Muslims by and large know they are better off in all objective measures than their co-religionists in Pakistan (and perhaps, in the Pan Islamic World). And they also see what happened to Pakistan. Even in Kashmir, the middle classes are less for "Azadi" than for their own betterment. It is the politicians and other vested interests who keep the flame of separation alive. Ordinary Kashmiris, when not inflamed by real or imagined atrocities of Indian security forces, just want to be left alone. True, Muslims in India have a higher procreation rate than non Muslims. However, I think a combination of modern education and Malthusian priniciples will taper that out.
Could this be wishful thinking? Perhaps. However, I do believe that when all is said and done, ones personal interests trump any ideology or religious predilictions. Muslims in India are no exception.
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Jinnah a great man ... i truly respect him as one of the greatest leaders in the world ...
A man words, commitment and dignity ...
May his soul rest in peace. (Amin)
Quaid e azam Zindabad
Pakistan Zindabab
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I see that the debate has got quite heated as expected on such a sensitive topic! I just wanted to make my point clear and comment on injun_nc's rebuttal to my previous entry.
Yes, there probably was always a rift between Hindus and Muslims for the past 1000 years in South Asia. However, 1857 is a very clear time when Britain officially started its Dominion of India and one of its main policies was "Divide and Rule". The partition of Bengal by Curzon in 1905, albeit unsuccessful at that stage, was the first major step taken by the British to stoke the Hindu-Muslim flame. In the 850 years previous to that, that Hindus and Muslims had lived together in the subcontinent (sure there would have been fights and disagreements as there always is with different communities) there was no great enmity between them with each community ready to seek separate places to live. How else would you explain a Hindu majority people being ruled by Muslim kings through the length and breadth of India for 100s of years? Of course, the British are not the ONLY ones to blame for partition, but they surely planned this one out.
In any case, there's no point comparing India with the US and saying economic growth will solve all problems. I'd rather live with India's problems than America's. For a 300-year old country and 6000-year old civilisation, the contexts are slightly different. India has lived through many "Golden Periods" that the US has experienced over the last 100 years and I don't think any of them can be taken for granted. Peace has to come from within, not with the power of money.
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To Indianblogger815, making a case for 'Brahmanism' and basing individual brilliance and piety on race and caste; guess which is the largest racial group in Pakistan's National Assembly? Its not Dalits, or people of Arab or turkish extractaction or even Pathans...RAJPUTS make for the largest racial group of the most August body of the land. And you know why...? Its because of the density of their population and the power they assert in the regions that they populate.
I do not want to elaborate the point any further for what it does to your hatefilled and narrow views.
I just finished reading Golwalker's 'we or our nationhood defined'. I am sure you keep it under your pillow.
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Mr Biswas suggests that Jaswant Singh might have written this book praising Jinnah partially to make him endearing to Indian muslims!
Well BJP and its leaders have been wrong about muslim Indians all along and this one is a latest example. Vast majority of Indian mulims hate Jinnah.
Even a tiny minority among Indian muslims, who are sympathetic to Jinnah's compulsions during the struggle that led to creation of Pakistan would not go to the length that jaswant singh has gone to praise Jinnah and villify Nehru.
I personally think that it is very natural that hindutva communalist like Jaswant Singh relates more to islamic communlists like Jinnah, beacuse they understand each other's feelings and ideology more.
It is Jaswant Singh, who loudly criticized Nepal's recent decalaration of itself as secular democracy dropping Hinduism from the title of state religion.
After all, the ideology that Jaswant Singh party is inspired of, has assasinated Mahathma gandhi, has created organizations like Sri Rama sene, bajrang dal, VHP and shiva sena who indulge in moral policing. We can see their idelogy converging wth Taliban's and other islamic fundamentalsists in Pakistan.
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Come on guys! Have you forgotten the policy of divide and rule? We are neighbours and will always be neighbours, we can only get out of this spiral of hate if we forget our bitter past and concentrate on present and future. French and British have worst past than us but BBC never raise those issues and they both countries have also realised that you can fight with whole world but fighting with neighbour is total destruction.
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The idea of a separate homeland for Muslims of the subcontinent has really been proven redundant with the secular nature of India itself where minority rights are enshrined in the constitution of the Republic of India. On the other hand, from its very creation, Pakistan has been beset with contradictions. A nation that proclaims itself to be inherently Muslim in nature yet has pretensions of secularism. Pray, what then is the reason for the existence of Pakistan?
We see today the internal contradictions of Pakistan manifest itself in the myriad conflicts that beset it. Islam by itself has not been successful at creating a monolithic Pakistani identity today. The founding idea of Pakistan-- the presumption of a singular identity-- left no room for the accommodation of the competing identities as it did in India.
On the other hand, despite its hundreds of nationalities, India has created a successful "Indian" identity by the nature of the Indian nation itself as adopted during its inception. As a homeland for Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Animists, Tao, Shinto, or whoever, India allows for the accommodation of all nationalities within the Indian identity. Pakistanis on the other hand are, Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochi, Pasthun, Mohajir, but never Pakistani.
The reason for the existence of a separate homeland for Muslims in form of Pakistan has been proven not only redundant by the uninterrupted march of India towards superpower status, but also by the slow but sure implosion of the Pakistani state.
For the record, I am neither Indian nor Pakistani, neither Hindu nor Muslim.
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i totally disagree with NeoGlobal007 comments that india gives equal rights to all minorities lemme remind him about a report issued by US Congress including india along with afghanistan & somila for failing to protect the rights of minorities.. furthermore i've personally seen how people from south india are treated by the people of north side of india...
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First let me categorically state that I am a man of Indian origin, but not an Indian citizen. I find many of the comments criticizing India as quite amuzing, especially from those of Pakistani origin. Nobody in their right mind would say that India is a perfect country or that it has a 100 percent rating in safeguarding minority rights as witnessed in 2002 in Gujurat and last year against the Christians in Orissa. However the notion that Pakistan has a clean record is laughable; I remember a specific New York times aritcle about the good work being done by a group of rich kids in Karachi, probably from KGS, in cleaning up a local rubbish dump. They had garnered some local attention and had enlisted volunteers to help them in their massive task; however, some of the clerics surrounding the dump retorted that such an action was "unclean" and was work for "Christians." That statement only goes to show the vitriol faced by religious minorities in Pakistan, let alone the discrimination faced by the Mohajirs from the Punjabis and Sindhis. But anyway back to what Mr. Biswas' blog ascertains. Unfortunately the venerable Jaswant Singh has been sacked by the BJP. That party faces a crisis after a disastrous defeat by Congress, but if it can unfetter its basis in Hindutva to become more focused on economic policies of the right, the BJP has a future. People in India do not want to promote religious hatred or violence, and many people can see through the BJP's propaganda. Also on a side note, after the Mumbai attacks many Pakistani commentators were so sure that Mr. Kasab was not a Pakistani, because apparently he had a "Hindu face." As if any of us can tell the difference.
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In a TV interview, the former external affairs minister said, "Gandhi himself called Jinnah a great Indian", and went on to add that Indian Muslims have been treated like 'aliens'. In India, more Muslims than Pakistan. I have many friends, colleagues but we never felt any difference. I mean to say that whoever educated and know understand the reality never complain. These politicians and actors want cheap publicity. You can see Dr.Kalam everyone loves him and respects him. The love and respect he has earned it and not begged for it. Any person with whatever background can reach this height but most of them search for shortcuts. And I think Mr.jaswanth Singh one among them.
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Firstly, let us agree on the fact that Jinnah was a fine statesman, an elequent orator and a man who fought for INDIAN independence till the very last moment. As educated peoplpe we need to view our history, however painful it may be, with unbiased objectivity.
In regards to the current "India v Pakistan" debate, which has seemed to provoke a burst of unfounded vitreolic abuse (notably lahori_girl), we need to realise that so much unites our two nations than divides them. We are the products of an ancient and cultured civilisation that has contributed vastly to the modern world in terms of philosophy and thinking. Throughout history we have been noted for our wisdom- thus, let us strive to be known in this way in the future and NOT for mindless violence based on that opiate of the mind: Religion. As Rajiv Gandhi once said- Shed hatred not blood.
India has had problems with its minorities (as has every other country in the world) but in a population of 1.2 Billion, these have to be viewed in perspective. The BJP's hindutva campaign is nothing but vile- the only way to exist in India is to co-exist. The beauty of India is its pleuralistic social fabric and this is portrayed by the fact that in this country of supposed hindu caste domination a Muslim can become President or captain of the national cricket team (the real heart-beat of the subcontinent); a Sikh can become Prime Minister and hold office for more than one term; an Italian-born Catholic woman can become the president of the ruling party. These are achievements that even the most fundamental Pakistani nationalists cannot deny.
The great friendship that exists between the enterprising and educated Indian and Pakistani communities in my hometown in England is testimony to the argument that there needs to be greater people-to-people contact. We cannot look towards the future with yesterday's eyes.
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Wow... with the expulsion of Jaswant Singh from the BJP it becomes crystal clear to all that India carries a deceptive veil of democracy and free speech... free speech is acceptable only when it tallies with India's concept of reality... there seems to be no room for deviance and discussion.
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About the Blog by Mr. Biswas...
its really amazing that how one can write whatever he likes on his/her blog on BBC and BBC senior editors won't check it for correctness. The facts twisting by Mr. Biswas is adequately taken care of by comment at no. 2.
About the Comments:
I am wondering at the bubble the young indians of today are living. Especailly about two things. Their ignorance about Pakistan and secondly, their ignorance about their own country; India
They do not acknowledge the fact that India has grave problems with its minorities. They fail to see that why Imran Hashmi has to complain that he is not being allowed to buy home in Mumbai coz he is a muslim. They fail to see why US has added India to watch list of the countries where minorities are unsafe (and Pakistan is not a member thereof). And they don't even listen what there own people have to say: Sacher Committee Report says that compared to any other socio-religious category, Muslims are in the lowest ladder in education as well as employment, and in many aspects their plight is more pitiable than that of dalits who are the scheduled casts.
And about the "develpoment engine" that india has become.
In my visit to India abt 2 year back. I saw young girls holding LALTAINS (Keroscene lamps) near each villages on the interstate highways at night. Upon asking, my Indian driver told me that they r here to find a driver or someone to spend a night for and earn something to eat. I had travelled in trains and there I found people lined up in thousands on both sides of track, discharging their stomachs as they don't have any toilets available.
Grow up guys! Face the truth…
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In response to post no. 38 smalik0786,
I think you have misunderstood the story here and, hence, why the message of your post is completely flawed.
Jaswant Singh has been expelled from and by the BJP party NOT from India. He expressed an opinion that did not adhere to the beliefs of the BJP party and has, therefore, (wrongly in my opinion) been expelled. These are the views and actions of a far right hindu nationalist party and NOT the nation, the majority of whom voted for a secular and socialist party at the last election.
Freedom of speech is strongly defended in India with its free press, media and judiciary. There is no "GeoTV debacle" in India everytime an anti-government/dictatorship view is expressed. So, in future save your misguided pseudo-intellectual demagogue comments for the "india-bashing" phone-in's on PTV.
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smalik0786,
What free speech has to do with him being expelled. While one utilize free speech by express his opinion and other excercised their right to expel him. Both enjoyed their right.
Talking about muslims conditions in india. There are many people in India in very poor condition. It is not limited muslims. Nobody said india is a rich country. But nobody can ignore the fact that it has been improving since independence. Talking about more uneducation, poverty in muslims. Why all other minorities were able to improve at the same time? Sikhs are minorities. but they are equally or even better than majory communities. The problem lies with so many unacceptable practices, that were not indias, that still remain with muslims in india. Name one? family planning. when ever government boby floats the idea of this, muslim representative go ballistic saying its unislamic. These representatives are responsible for all this evils. Its neither the common muslim men nor any other community members in India. They are all innocents and just victims.
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Ugh, more identity politics. You notice this is your only blog post that received so many comments - shows what people in the Subcontinent really care about. :( No wonder we are so messed up.
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Whats done is done, whatever our opinions are we need to let go of our hatred/discrimination on what happened with the partition. Hindu's, Muslims, Sikhs etc need to respect each others cultural differences and move forward together because as it stands we are going to continue to destroy each other. We can't even debate without an argument breaking out.
Enough blood has been spilt between us all, we need to stop being manipulated by people who are motivated by personal gain/greed. Instead we should be focused on equality for all, lets start by getting on with each other and see how things go from there because every country has its problems (even developed nations) and the only way to move forward is to work together.
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Once in a while, I would come across people like incan-nc..hopefully,he/she is not in North Carolina because it will just prove how unliveable the great India is.
"I shudder at the thought of modern India getting stuck with teeming fundamentalists prone to violence and determined to stay in the dark ages."
Really? They ruled your country from 1998-2004 and managed to kill 2000 Muslims and burnt Christians alive.
Following your logic,shouldn't India free Kashmir and Northeast? Both Kashmir and Northeast are full of terrorists ( no, I am not referring to your 700,000 brave soldiers).You will thank me later for freeing Kashmir and Northeast.
NeoGlobal007 spewed this:
"Pakistanis on the other hand are, Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochi, Pasthun, Mohajir, but never Pakistani."
Is that why you have 17 separatist movements in India and North Indians were told to leave Mumbai and Northeast people are "chinkies"? Just wondering.
FromIndia wrote:
"R u talking about yourself? I understand with all the heat and humidity your brain got cooked up and could not make any reasonable statement. Unvail yourself and enjoy what nature has given u. World is very colorful and do not stay inside the dark world."
Pot has no mirror.
Thanks AffanThakur for the only few sensible comments from Indians here. Even with the rate growth of 8-9%, India's poverty has risen 5% while China has eradicated its poverty by large number.
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HI guys,
I took me a very long time to read the blog and even more to read the COMMENTS.
Mr Jinnah was no wonder a man of knowledge, intellect and intelligence. The fact of Nehru's involvement in partition of Hindus and Muslim is also true. But let us go a little back in time. Hindustan has been a country, which was, invaded my many nations but mostly rule my Muslim Rulers. I do believe that people might have change their religion to be in the better books but when the English Invaded and conquered Hindustan, many Hindus turn their backs toward Muslims and joined forces with them. English upon seeing the conflicts took all the possible advantages they can. I accept partition took place but guys, (India & Pakistan) open you eyes and look around, our governments are still like puppets of the west and America.
I strongly believe, despite pointing finger at each other, we should just try to keep our sides correct. I mean to say is that India, alike, Pakistan is not a perfect country. Me as being a Proud Pakistani will never let anyone point a finger at Us same as any person of different nationality.
These politicians who, unfortunately, succeeds every time fool these citizens India & Pakistan. As a result, Hindus and Pakistani people tend to bite each other.
I strongly believe we are still the slaves of our political leaders and our leaders of America and West. Why are we arguing with each other? By saying India or Pakistan is a great nation will never change the fact of being in third world.
About this Blog: If someone Like Jinnah is praised by any other HUMAN BEING as good and intelligent person shouldn’t bring this much debate. There are Great, Intelligent and good people everywhere in this world. We should not degrade them due to their origins. Mr Jinnah wasn’t an Extremist Muslim, because he wanted an Independent Hindustan not India/ Pakistan. He was pushed to that.
So please, all of you! Come out from your pasts and try to make our/your country a better place to live. WE are the COUNTRY (India or Pakistan). Try to make your present a present for your and our future generations.
Thanks
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Thank you for this article. As a citizen of the United States, I see very few articles that explain the relationships between India and Pakistan. We are all becoming world citizens and need to be better informed about all countries.
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Staunch undemocratic ultra right wing of BJP cost it with elections. Some of them envy dictatorship & say that India needs a "Musharraf". That's so embarrassing that a party which is in politics in world's-biggest-democracy expels a senior member & former minister just because what he said is different from majority opinion? That’s an apparent manifestation of BJP's policy towards minorities.
Jaswant Singh & Adwani represent other wing of BJP who reckon that if they are portray Nehru & Gandhi, as responsible of partition, they can undermine Nehru family influence on Congress & eventually on Indian politics.
Jinnah also used religion for politics like Gandhi, because that was in vogue in India at that time. That's how British Establishment also wanted to let Indian politics run too.
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RajaFarrukh is the only person from pakistan over this forum with sensible post. Though I do not agree with some of the content in it. I do not need to critizise him. I agree with those who said to keep their issues to themself and not try to velify out nation. I had to argue with few of them here because this post, though in bbc, is infact an indian issue. We have a right to agree, disagree or critize on this issue. If pakistanies want to join the bandwagon, they may do so in a ethical manner. Assuming indian names and indulging in falsification is not going to help each other. Each country has contentious issues and hence forth should be left to its citizens. Bye the way mr.RajaFarrukh, indians are not slaves to politicians. we kick them out every now and then when we feel they are doing enough. We also give opportunities all community members to represent the nation. U can look at the history and present. We are founders of non-aligned movement and always have independent policies. We never bowed to west or east after independence. So, do not try to but us in the same boat. We might have history in common but that does not mean that we still posses same valued and share same culture. Our constitution has provided special previleges to minorites even though is not acceptable to have double standards. We have reservations to bring minorities up (including muslims). Our problem is population not cultural or religious issues. BJP, RSS, CPM and CPI were there since independence but How long were they able to excert power. The fact that only once BJP able form government that too under moderate leadership show that we not how to protect our ideals. Even US took over 200 years to find harmony. India is very young and with ever growing population we need more time to prove the world that we make good and symbolic contribution to the world. We already given one non-voilent movement which lead over 45 crore population in one line and acheive independence. It is up there over the world to be seen by every one. Never a nation on this planet, in history, has acheived this feet. It will be there for every one to emulate.
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FromIndia living in the bubble spewed this"
"We are founders of non-aligned movement and always have independent policies. We never bowed to west or east after independence. So, do not try to but us in the same boat. We might have history in common but that does not mean that we still posses same valued and share same culture."
Is that why you want to be a "shooooperpower" and pulled an Israel at Pakistan?The Nuclear deal proved how powerful you are...not.And,the millions of Indians who lined up outside western embassies proved how self-assured you are as a nation.(Minus the way the rest of the world especially Australians treat you as a people).
"So, do not try to but us in the same boat."
what? Did your monkey type this nonsensical collection of words?
India should look at China and observe how far Chinese have arrived since the economic liberalization policy took place and compare that to their own land.After that, they might want to hang their he heads in utter shame.Or better yet try looking downsouth - Sri Lanka is a great example of a country that has higher education attainment and GDP per capita than their shooperpower nation.
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This interesting albeit a little unfortunate saga just goes on to show how many Indians, to this day, despite the many ills that plague their country, are still fixated with the unthinkable division of mother Hindustan. While his views are understandably anathema to the powers that be, Singh’s expulsion in retribution for penning a book seems unwarranted, not least because it violates a cherished freedom- that of expression without fear of being censored much less being ostracized. The decision of the BJP's pundits also serves to belittle the many years of service of one of the saner figures of the infamous Hindu nationalist party whose accomplishments, among other things, include the blatant genocide of, gasp, 2000 Muslims in Gujarat.
Talk about craving for more when you cannot manage what you already have!
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tjudea,
Our people are free to go any where and come back any time. The world needs us. Unlike chine/pakistan we do not disown them. Australia?? if our citizens involved in contravery in other countries we work their nation and fix problem. We do not try to deny and disown them like pakistan did to kasab and his fellow thugs. Where were all those pakistan media which tried to potray kasab as hindu. All of a sudden they are mum and have no face to show. See what happens if u do not accept truth. After so much of deny pakistan, inevitably, had to accept kasab as its citizen. Truth will powerful and always wins.
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Soutik shows his hand pretty early - "Even the secular Congress party abhors him." - not sure what "Even" means - Congress loves to make a monster out of Jinnah and a god out of Nehru. The jury is out there as to who was most responsible for the partition. I know who paid the price - a few million nameless citizens. And, what is "secular" about the Congress - remember Shah Bano case, remember Babri Masjid - one was a policy decision on their part and other was a law/order failure on their part.
Truth be told there is a lot to admire about Jinnah. The unfortunate truth is neither India nor Pakistan have shaped up to what its founding father(s) wanted them to be.
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I haven't read Mr. Singh's book but from what I've seen in some news sites, I disagree with the contents. Mr. Singh's is an India centric view, blaming Mr. Nehru in place of Mr. Jinnah. If Partition is looked at from Pakistan's view, it is an achievement. And to deny Mr. Jinnah's part and credit Mr. Nehru is being unfair to both. The fact is both were players. It is a historic fact that Mr. Jinnah called for Direct action day on 16-Aug-1946. Muslim league and Mr. Jinnah had been promoting Pakistan movement for a long time. Mr. Nehru was playing his part as the Congress leader. All of them including the British were players and the final result was partition. It has been good and bad. A nation was divided into two and resources were shared. But two sets of people were at liberty to progress politically in India and Pakistan. The two nations should move on from this. There is no use in revisiting it for scoring some political points.
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One doesnt understand what motivated Mr Jaswant Singh to discover Mr . Jinnah's virtues in the autumn of his political career. I wouldnt like to comment on the book without having read it . Mr. Jinnah while he certainly had his virtues did call for Direct Action day which lead to blood drenched Calcutta communal riots in 1946. That paved the way for a veritable dance of death culminating in the Partition of India.All the political leaders of the time had their roles in the partition of India. There is no need to demonise Mr.Jinnah but the fact that today's Indian politicians of the saffron variety are recognising his virtues should not mean that the pendulum of their thoughts on him swing to the other extreme.Such contrition seems a vain effort to burnish their historical legacy.
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To Indians - Stop trying to explain Pakistanis how better off we are culturaly, economically and socially than they are. It's their loss if they do not see it. World knows that's what matters. I've dealt with many Pakistanis in my life in NY and I can tell you that 90% of them live in a shell and will not accept the realities. While's public information that ISI (Pak Intelligence) created Taliban, they refuse to admit it along with many other things that are public and well-accepted in the entire world. That's OK. It's like shooting down a loaded machine gun on their own foot. The optimist that I am, I'll take another stab at explaining to Pakistanis below. Bear with me. I may be rude.
To Pakistanis - Please try to look in the mirror before criticizing 'anyone', even Somalis for that matter. What your country has ended up creating is a center of terrorism, which brings much shame to all Pakistanis around the world and is responsible for countless deaths. I know how minority Hindus and Christians are treated in Pakistan, so don't even talk about Indian conflict with Marxist and Muslim minority (the Hindu-Christian conflict is a bit overplayed and it's a known fact for Indians who had/have nothing against the Christians or Christian faith historically or currently). The natural conflict in philosophies between Islam and Hinduism is responsible for the Muslim conflict, which too will be resolve as Muslims of India (minority) starts getting more & more educated and catches up with their fellow Hindu, Sikh & Christian citizens. The fact of the matter is that, as living conditions have been improving in India, the life of a common man (regardless of religion) has gotten better. Caste hasn't mattered in India for years (I can attest to that - my whole family for two generations has married outside of case. And my grandfather was Brahmin) and I am sure we will get there with regards to religion with them. Difficulties, as with any nation, also persists and am hopeful that the increase in education levels of the common man will solve that too.
To all - Jinnah was indeed very educated and intelligent man with strong feelings for his fellow Muslims. What he did is what anyone would've done if they were in his shoes. He stood up and made sure that his folks won't be compromised in the new administration. Nothing wrong in that. I've never taken him for an anti-Hindu person as there is little evidence in history that he was. He did become anti-India after the partition (for obvious reasons). What followed a brave vision to create a state for his fellow Muslims was an utter failure of what that great man once saw.
Please remove the rubbish about low-caste hindus converting to Islam. Yes that was prevelant, but certainly was not limited to low caste Hindus. You'd be suprised to find out that it was the Kshatriyas that converted into Islam the most. In fact, Jinnah belong to a Kshatriya clan (Lohana) - to which, I belong as well with the mixture of Brahmin, but as a non-practicing Hindu. And by the way, the disappearance of Buddhism from the entire North/North-west India is a mystery....I think the world would've been much better of.
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Some excerpts from Mr. Jaswant Singh's Book
"The basic and structural fault in Jinnah's notion remains a rejection of his origins; of being an Indian, having been shaped by the soil of India, tempered in the heat of Indian experience. Muslims in India were no doubt subscribers to a different faith but that is all; they were not any different stock or of alien origin."
- & -
"It is in this, a false 'minority syndrome' that the dry rot of partition first set in, and then unstoppably it afflicted the entire structure, the magnificent edifice of an united India. The answer (cure?), Jinnah asserted, lay only in parting, and Nehru and Patel and others of the Congress also finally agreed. Thus was born Pakistan".
- & -
"His opposition was not against the Hindus or Hinduism, it was the Congress that he considered as the true political rival of the Muslim League, and the League he considered as being just an 'extension of himself'. He, of course, made much of the Hindu-Muslim riots (1946; Bengal, Bihar, etc.) to 'prove the incapacity of Congress Governments to protect Muslims; and also expressed fear of "Hindu raj" to frighten Muslims into joining the League, but during innumerable conversations with him I can rarely recall him attacking Hindus or Hinduism as such. His opposition, which later developed into almost hatred, remained focused upon the Congress leadership' (M.R.A. Baig, Jinnah's secretary)."
- & -
"Religion in all this was entirely incidental; Pakistan alone gave him all that his personality and character demanded. If Mr. Jinnah was necessary for achieving Pakistan, Pakistan, too was necessary for the fulfillment of Mr. Jinnah."
- & -
"However, it has to be said, and with great sadness, that despite some early indications to the contrary, the leaders of the Indian National Congress, in the period between the outbreak of war in 1939 and the country's partition in 1947, showed in general, a sad lack of realism, of foresight, of purpose and of will."
- & -
"As (Maulana Azad) wrote in his memoirs, he had come to the conclusion that Indian federation should deal with just three subjects: defence, foreign affairs and communications; thus granting the maximum possible autonomy to the provinces. According to the Maulana, Gandhi accepted this suggestion, while Sardar Patel did not."
- & -
"For, along with several other there is one central difficult that India, Pakistan, Bangladesh face: our 'past' has, in reality never gone into the 'past', it continues to reinvent itself, constantly becoming our 'present', thus preventing us from escaping the imprisonment of memories. To this we have to find an answer, who else can or will?"
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Jinnah was a great leader. Any one who knew him would eventually come to this conclusion. Just like L.K. Advani earlier and now Mr. Jaswant Singh did. It is said that once an individual reaches a point in life where he/she feels that they have nothing to loose or gain by telling the truth they will give their fairest assessment. Just like the case with Jimmy Carter who decided to come out in support of Palestenian cause in his latest book. I believe Mr. Jaswant Singh has reached that point in his life also.
The tragedy of Pakistan is that it was bruised from inception and Jinnah did not survive long enough after the creation of Pakistan to leave the helms of this newly born nation to a leadership that shared his dreams about its purpose. Jinnah always supported Islam as an idetity for this country but having a progressive Secular democracy safeguarding the right of minorities. The falg of Pakistan is one symbol where this ideology is represented. The green portion with crescent and star represent the Islamic identity and the white portion represents minorities. If current Pakistan has been hijacked by those forces that were initially opposed to it and now are running the show it is trgedy but in no way reflection on what Jinnah and Muslims in Sub-continent wanted.
The question to ponder is, what were the circumstances that made Muslims of sub-continent in general and Jinnah in particular decide to go their separate way and create Pakistan? The truth is Jinnah always fought against British rule and Indian independence under congress.
The answer lies in, 1928 (Pandit MotiLal Nehru) "Nehru Report" that rejected most of the items earlier presented by Delhi Muslims proposal safeguarding Muslim interest in greater India. This proposal was earlier accepted by Congress then rejected in this report. Nehru Report was nothing else than a Hindu dominated Congress document and thus totally opposed by Muslims of the Sub-continent. The Hindus under Congress threatened the government with a disobedience movement if the Nehru report was not implemented into the Act by December 31, 1929. This Hindu attitude proved to be a milestone in the freedom movement of the Muslims. It also proved to be a turning point in the life of Muhammad Ali Jinnah. After reading the Nehru Report, Jinnah announced a 'parting of the ways'. The Nehru Report reflected the inner prejudice and narrow-minded approach of the Hindus.
Religion does not need an Islamic state or any physical boundary to protect its believers but the attitude and tolerance of the non-believers. In this case Jinnah assessed what to come in Independent India and parted way.
People are currently treating Pakistan as a fallen man who any one choose can to kick in the stomach. But do not forget the fact that for decades after partition muslims from India continue to migrate to Pakistan since it provided better opportunitues for Muslims.
The story of Pakistan continues and what is going on right now is not the reflection of what Jinnah envisioned.
Ref: Story of Pakistan
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My granddad told me all. Jinnah, Nehru and Gandhi all studied and lived in England. They had vision to be great people. None of them should have been allowed near the planning of Indian constitution. One had ego, other was power hungry and third looking for a salvation if enlightment was getting too late. Yeah yeah, I am blunt tongue but truth is harsh. Not facing truth is what gets civilizations down to slavery and extinction. I speak for the common man who was hurt and died by hunger as his wife when legends were spending millions on their tombs. Jinnah was experimental with his thoughts on self-governance of India. Look what has happened to Pakistan with his fourteen point plan theories and giving power to provinces. He thought it would be easy for governance using local politics, however long term goal was a disaster. At one point he wanted 50% seats to be reserved for Muslims. So he never technically visioned democratic and indpendent India. His grandfather was a hindu rajput and grand children(parsi wadia family) enjoying rich freedom in India. Mr. Jinnah friend of convienence, never participated in protests to get favours from our British Raj, when Gandhian followers were fried on hot pans. He misguided millions and got them stranded in extremist environment. He requested Mr Nehru to look after his Bombay house , he might return if things didn;t work out up north. Not all hindus are bad as not all muslims. A hindu got converted to Muslim, spoke for their rights and creates nation for them. We don't know if Jinnah family did sacrifice or need to do so. Jinnah family is Parsi as of now.
Mr Nehru, sent his clothes to Paris for cleaning( awright there weren;t good facilities for his expensive suits in India, I take it back). Whatever, he never wanted to share his biscuits in halls of residence forget about sharing power with Jinnah. All he had to do was share power for one year for a united India. Only thing admirable, he somehow managed secular state but left Nehru-Gandhi dynasty to rule years to come. When innocent and comman man fought for his independance, they got divisions and partitions killing millions. Mr. Gandhi, although I admire his philosophies and to some extent his non-violence calmed Indian aggression. Why did he wait till 49 years for the enlightment. They say rich has choices and vision to think and execute, they can fast when hunger can be fetched. Mr Gandhi too at times was uncompromising and never listened to others. Such a child, thankfully our British Intelligence protected him all times. All three legends knew English well and common man had no say in their tea meetings.
Well no offence to anyone for me unknown common man should have been listened too..Mr Jaswant singh should speak his mind in democracy. But congress today is different then in 1947 and BJP is powerless. Jaswant can praise Jinnah to be back in business. In the end its always about who gets what. Folks, true Independence would have been country free from religious and caste plague with no pain of partition. My thoughts are with common men who preserves right even in wrong circumstances.
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Did India really have Italian ruling party chief, Sikh prime minister, and Muslim president?
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TO FromIndia:
I wrote what I have heard/esearched from news and facts. Like LadyDehli. Hindus in India have caused so much terror amongst the minorities and after reading you comments i believe you are current not living in India or If you are living you must be in an elite area. God know what the truth is. But the reason i wrote this is as all your knowledge is based on internet and book which only show one side of the picture. i think u need to explore your shoooperpower.
India cannot compete with china because they are not their size to mess with. The whole world knows what china was and what it has truned into now. Rather then making things better in ur country you started throwing mud on others. As i said before, We all have to look into our own collers and play our roll rather then telling magical stories to justify yourself. As you said, I also don't have to agree with all you points. Keep one thing in your mind if u point one finger to someone else the rest three are pointing towards urself.
Just open you mind, breath the bitter air around you and start living in reality.
To LadyDehli:
I don't think what you expect from BBC will be actioned as when i saw this blog it had 31 comments and now 64. So they are getting the hits/clicks what they want plus the entertainment of watching how Indians, Pakistani, Sikhs and all other linked to this blog/issue open their conflict with each other. I think they must be feeling lucky leaving Hindustan as they knew conflicts will never be overcome. SO they gathered what ever they can and left the lands empty.
This is all, I rest my case.
Thanks for reading.
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Mr. Jinnah was most miss understood leader of his time. Muslims of India in 1940s were in need of a good Attorney and Advocate for their cause. Mr. Jinnah took it, fought it and won the case on behalf of Indian Muslims . Pakistan' s politicians (not leaders of Indian Muslims) most of whom had no role in working to free Pakistan from united India , never accepted the principles on which Pakistan was created . Pakistan became a play ground for their political ambitions to grab power and become rich. In India Jinnah and Pakistan were enemy to rally the masses for political purposes . Mr. Singh is more of a secular and independent politician and thinker in his own right. Mr. Singh as a politician as well as a writer, may have had a hidden agenda or a plan to raise his political stature after Bajpai and Advani by writing this book . I do not see any contradiction in writing a book based on research and expressing his own thinking . Mr. Singh has definitely earned respect and enhanced his stature from millions of Muslims and others interested in Indo -Pak affairs . DANIAL FAROOQ , Streamwood, IL U. S. A.
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This blog is starting to become quite amusing.
Failed democracy, followed by miliatry dictatorship time and time again with the execution of its democratically elected leaders (*cough* bhutto) is not a land of better opportunities or tolerance. Maybe our Christian friends who hve been made refugess in what is fast becoming a humanitarian disaster on the main road of Islamabad or our Shia friends in Karachi being murdered left right and centre would like to contest the idea that minorities have it better in Pakistan. This is a country that is in fact an army with a state, who's economy is under the control and supervision of the IMF (since it cannot be trusted to run its own economy) and who now have run out of sugar?!
This is a land which is in a constant state of denial, failing to believe that the Bangladesh independenc war was lost even as 97000 troops under General A.K. Niazi surrendered on TV (the highest no. of troop surrender in history). Failing to believe its army was responsible for invading Kargil whilst the rest of the world watched. Failing to recognise that its ISI, entrenched in every strata of state affairs, created the taliban and hence the mess the country is in right now.
The creation of Pakistan was nothing but a phyrric victory for Jinnah.
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To Lahori-Girl
You are welcome!
I genuinely believe that if India is to move forward then it must embrace and make a place for its minorities....Muslims, Christians and Sikhs. Everything I said about violence against minorities is true and can be verified by fact. India needs to 'own up' to what happened ...like the Germans in Germany...and make recompense to its victims...to heal the wounds...
If there had been no threat of violence and suppression of minorities than Pakistan would not have come about. If it happened then it was because Jinnah saw a danger and saved his people. He was a good man for his people. The Sikhs got left behind and look how they are suffering now! So India only has itself to blame for any partition and wars.....
India is under the control of a few self-centred people who act like monarchs and they have convinced the general public, most of which are illiterate, that the country is under attack from Pakistanis, Kashmiris, Sikhs, Naxalites and any other 'Boogie man" they can think off. This way the politicians are able to win votes and keep the people deluded.
I LOVE England.........if you are interested a good book exposing the truth about Indian psyche is White Tiger by Aravind Adiga. It is a fun read and very British in its humour but also has many layers to it.. It is highly recommended.
Another more serious book is Open Secrets by Maloy Krishna Dhar who exposes the works of Indian Intelligence Agencies and how they pose as Indian muslims to create trouble in India to make the muslim community look bad; they were also responsible for the smuggling of arms into the Golden Temple to make it look like the Sikhs did it; also the Air India crash......he exposes how they recruit Academics and Media people to 'sell' the Indian story. BTW he is paranoid by Pakistanis but in the end it is the Indians who threaten him for exposing them....a long book, dry at times but will open your eyes.
Have a great day!
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on 19 Aug 2009, tjudea wrote:
Once in a while, I would come across people like incan-nc [sic]..hopefully,he/she is not in North Carolina because it will just prove how unliveable the great India is.
"I shudder at the thought of modern India getting stuck with teeming fundamentalists prone to violence and determined to stay in the dark ages."
Really? They ruled your country from 1998-2004 and managed to kill 2000 Muslims and burnt Christians alive.
Following your logic,shouldn't India free Kashmir and Northeast? Both Kashmir and Northeast are full of terrorists ( no, I am not referring to your 700,000 brave soldiers).You will thank me later for freeing Kashmir and Northeast.
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Yes, I spend a lot of my time in the great state of North Carolina....but that is irrelevant. The world is my oyster. FYI, the moniker is "injun_nc". Yours is an interesting logic that I will not waste much time debating. Would like to just rebut it once. Then you are on your own bud.
Regarding terrorists ruling India between 1998 and 2004 -- isn't one of those "terrorists" whose book is the very reason for this lively exchange here? If the world has to choose between my "terrorists" and the ones coming out of what now is Pakistan, you'd hopefully agree mine will win hands-down. Do you see American drones flying over New Delhi shooting down BJP leaders? Or a coalition force assaulting Bajpai's residence? To confuse totalitarian terrorism in SWAT Valley in Pakistan (where their military is engaged in a civil war at America's insistence and with its money) with ill-guided fanaticism of a few bad applies that is easily contained by the local police is indeed fallacious. In a pluralistic society like India, sad and deplorable at it might be, these intra-religious disturbances are inevitable -- especially, when there is political hay to be made. Look at the forest and not count the trees. A few rotten trees do not make a rotten forest -- my good 'tjudea'. Probably, you'd apply the same yardstick to events in Australia where a few Indian students got stabbed a month or two ago? Was it racism? or wayward criminals making a quick buck? Are they also terrorists in your mind?
Regarding Kashmir and Northeast, do you see them holding the nation hostage as Taliban and Al Qaida factions are doing in Pakistan? Also, as far as Kashmir is concerned.....what is the basis of their secession? Religion? Why else would they ethnically cleanse Kashmiri Pundits who had lived there for thousands of years? Also, do you know of any country in the history of the world that has relinquished its own territory (especially based on religion) even if it was critical for its strategic needs against the likes of China? Obviously not. Kashmiris who want "azadi" so badly, they should consider joining their kin on the other side of the border and live happily (or 'azad-ily') ever after under the caliphate of Taliban.
Suggest you brush up your history and sense of proportion. A very Good Luck from the fruited plains of North Carolina my friend.....who ever you are and where ever you might be!
Signed:
INJUN_NC
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To those who have replied to me:
Let me clarify that I was born in a Vaishya caste, raised in the city, where caste is disappearing very fast. I have no intention of singing Brahmin glories here. My earlier post was in the humble intention of promoting peace and understanding. Man evolves from Shudra to Vaishya to Kshatriya to Brahmana. Every shudra will evolve into a Buddha - that is the great belief of Hinduism & I subscribe to that.
Caste is the greatest sociological system ever created. It is a complex idea and I sincerely hope that God (whether Allah/Brahman or however you want to call Him/Her/the idea) helps you to understand it. Caste is like 90% good, 10% bad. All the media & english educated modern generation is focused on the 10% bad & would passionately love to see the death of Caste. When Caste dies, India will die along with it. Indians will lose their identity, like Iranians, Afghanis, Native Americans & many countless races. (Luckily, I dont see that happening in the foreseeable future)
Workers (Shudras), Business class (Vaishyas), Political Class (Kshatriyas) and the academic class (Brahmins) exist in all the societies. Only in India, they exist harmoniously. Look at all the revolutions (French, American, Russian, Iranian, Chinese...). The main reason is not ideology, but the arrogance of the rich/political class and the outrage of the worker class. The best system the west has ever come up with is Capitalism. Even that is not stable in US: Big corporations have wiped out small businesses. They have grown so big that they effectively lobby with the govt. They have pushed the worker class more and more into debt. Stage is set for the next revolution (socialism) in US. Things will only go from bad to worse. Same thing in China. A small political class controls the wealth of a billion+ people. If anybody complains, they will roll out their tanks (Tiananmen square massacre).
The political class is ruthless by nature. Only in India, the strong warrior is bound to listen to the humble philosopher. I dont know any instance of the kings enslaving the common people in India. Its very common in European civilizations. "Ram Rajya" is a dictatorship, but people consider that as the Utopian governance in India, because the dictator is honour-bound and dharma-bound. Even Duryodhan, the baddest person in Mahabharatha, is portrayed as a great king, who works for the welfare of their people - he had the support of an army 1.5 times bigger than that of Pandavas.
In India, even before the West came up with democracies & individual liberties, the people recognized the need to protect the under privileged. The low castes have the most freedom. The shepherd may not be around always, but when the sheep are united, no wolf can ever take advantage of them. Overtime, unfortunately it degraded. The smartest thing to do is to refine rather than to destroy.
I will list some of the accomplishments of Caste.
* India withstood 1000 years of foreign rule. The native culture is still intact.
* Islam & Christianity have successfully wiped out all other native religions elsewhere, except in India
* Jews were never protected anywhere else, except in India
* Parsis have disappeared in Iran, but continue to live in India
* Largest, most diverse democracy in the world.
* India was the first nation to embrace democracy before it became rich.
* Everyone predicted that India will fall into pieces, due to the diversity. They all failed to understand that "unity in diversity" is as old as the caste system.
* Eventhough there is a huge poor population in India, no communist movement ever succeeded in overthrowing the democracy
* Crime rate is lowest in the world: 12000 police stations for 700,000 villages/towns.
* Richest nation in history: till 18th century. (briefly overtaken by China twice)
"Children of India, I am here to speak to you today about some practical things, and my object in reminding you about the glories of the past is simply this. Many times have I been told that looking into the past only degenerates and leads to nothing, and that we should look to the future. That is true. But out of the past is built the future. Look back, therefore, as far as you can, drink deep of the eternal fountains that are behind, and after that, look forward, march forward and make India brighter, greater, much higher than she ever was. Our ancestors were great. We must first recall that. We must learn the elements of our being, the blood that courses in our veins; we must have faith in that blood and what it did in the past; and out of that faith and consciousness of past greatness, we must build an India yet greater than what she has been. There have been periods of decay and degradation. I do not attach much importance to them; we all know that. Such periods have been necessary. A mighty tree produces a beautiful ripe fruit. That fruit falls on the ground, it decays and rots, and out of that decay springs the root and the future tree, perhaps mightier than the first one. This period of decay through which we have passed was all the more necessary. Out of this decay is coming the India of the future; it is sprouting, its first leaves are already out; and a mighty, gigantic tree, the Urdhvamula, is here, already beginning to appear" - Swami Vivekananda
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@injun-nc
Yes, I spend a lot of my time in the great state of North Carolina....but that is irrelevant. The world is my oyster. FYI, the moniker is "injun_nc". Yours is an interesting logic that I will not waste much time debating. Would like to just rebut it once. Then you are on your own bud.
Just proved my theory of how obsessed Indians are to the western world and how they adore fair and lovely or is it handsome?
"Regarding terrorists ruling India between 1998 and 2004 -- isn't one of those "terrorists" whose book is the very reason for this lively exchange here?"
Terrorists?Thanks for putting words into my mouth.
"If the world has to choose between my "terrorists" and the ones coming out of what now is Pakistan, you'd hopefully agree mine will win hands-down. Do you see American drones flying over New Delhi shooting down BJP leaders? Or a coalition force assaulting Bajpai's residence? To confuse totalitarian terrorism in SWAT Valley in Pakistan (where their military is engaged in a civil war at America's insistence and with its money) with ill-guided fanaticism of a few bad applies that is easily contained by the local police is indeed fallacious."
The Gujarat riot took place for THREE MONTHS. An empire turned nation-state like India(or should we call it Hindustan) witnessed and prolonged the atrocities against its own citizens. The police and politicians planned and watched as one by one Muslims were dragged, killed and burnt alive and those who survived were eventually sent to the ghettos of Ahmedabad.
"In a pluralistic society like India, sad and deplorable at it might be, these intra-religious disturbances are inevitable -- especially, when there is political hay to be made."
It's an empire turned nation-state, pluralism isn't your utopia, it's something that was forced upon you - it's the way to keep all the denizens coiled up under one flag- regardless of how delusional and superficial that flag is.
"Regarding Kashmir and Northeast, do you see them holding the nation hostage as Taliban and Al Qaida factions are doing in Pakistan?"
That's why you have 700,000 "brave" soldiers occupying Kashmir? To subdue a people who were forced to be Indians by the largest democracy in the world? tsk tsk.India's state terrorism in Kashmir and Northeast are masqueraded by the platitude - the largest democracy in the world.
"Also, as far as Kashmir is concerned.....what is the basis of their secession? Religion? Why else would they ethnically cleanse Kashmiri Pundits who had lived there for thousands of years?"
India weeps for their fellow Hindus down south in Sri Lanka but stands against any religion card being played in Kashmir?How hypocrite can Indians be?The "ethnically cleansed" Kashmiri Pandits (who are Hindu supremacists and who benefited greatly under the brutal rule of the Dogras and who are now cadging for the Hindu land of Panun Kashmir) were moved by your armies and soldiers to the "havens" in Delhi and elsewhere in India. Those who stayed put in the Kashmir valley are still breathing,living and kicking.
It seems hypocritical for a nation that called itself secular rallied behind Kashmiri Pandits but ignored the brutal occupation that Kashmiri Muslims have to endure. Hindu consciousness underlines the idea of Indian nationalism; perhaps even the preliminary remark that there are a number of nationalisms jostling for recognition within the territorial space of the Indian state is appreciable.
"Also, do you know of any country in the history of the world that has relinquished its own territory (especially based on religion) even if it was critical for its strategic needs against the likes of China? Obviously not. Kashmiris who want "azadi" so badly, they should consider joining their kin on the other side of the border and live happily (or 'azad-ily') ever after under the caliphate of Taliban."
This is the true color of Indians. They don't even have an iota of care towards Kashmiris - they care about Kashmir, the land. They assumed Kashmir is their father's property that can be bargained and demanded from the Kashmiris.
"Suggest you brush up your history and sense of proportion. A very Good Luck from the fruited plains of North Carolina my friend.....who ever you are and where ever you might be!"
Look who was talking.Let me suggest a book or two for you to brush your own history - start by perusing Hindu Rulers,Muslim Subjects by Mrindu Rai.
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To LadyDelhi
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Secondly let me tell you something about the Sikhs. In June 1984 the Indian Army stormed the Golden Temple with no prior warning to remove 38 'militants'. The Army used 70,000 troops, tanks and chemical gas in a preplanned attack which was put in place 18 months prior to the 'militants' entering the Temple. The Army ended up killing 20,000 innocent pilgrims. Operation Woodrose in the next few months involved picking up Sikhs males between the ages of 15-35 who were shot point blank range for no other reason than for being Sikh. Nov 1984 in Delhi 5,000 Sikhs were burned alive, women raped and children killed by state sponsored mobs of Hindus led by the government of India. In Punjab 250,000 people have disappeared or been killed in 'fake police encounters" between 1984-1995 led by the Butcher of Punjab KSP Gill, who is glorified by the India media as a "Supercop".
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Are u in ur mind!!!!!
its true that India is known for suppressing its minorities and done various attrocities
but ur facts about about Operation Bluestar are completely wrong and illogical..
even common sense says that no country would put 70000 army persons against 38 terrorists.. its not possible at all to concentrate such a force in a place like that.
First of all there were more than 400 terrorists (check ur figures with some logical reports)
I agree with you that Indians have done attrocities in Nort-east
used there resources and exploited the tribes there.
India is still a caste-ridden society and it made millions of people live like animals without any rights.
some bloggers like indiablogger815 glorify this caste system cause they have not been on d receiving end.
FromIndia need to open his eyes and to see the reality that people inm majority knowingly/unknowingly suppress the minority everywhere.
An example may be taken as morning prayer in schools and what you say saraswati-vandana, bhumi -poojan in govt authorities.
If India is a secular country, atleast govt. should not promote any particular religion.
if i am a non-hindu, may be even a athiest, i wont like the idea of prayer and other things like this.
so Indians need to understand all are equal. stop discriminating dalits and minorities. same goes for pakistan for minorities, baluch and north-frontier tribes.
Lets make this place a better place to live
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To Indian007:
I really appreciate your acceptance of the bitter truth. I also accept the Pakistan is also undergoing changes and is passing thorough a really hard time but we, the people of the subcontinent, have to show a little bit of co-operation toward each other. We people whilst living in different country are friends and very close friends indeed. I two very best friends are Christian and Sikh. They are like family friends. Then why can't we be the same as two countries?
TO ALL THE POSTS:
One can clearly see that being minority in other countries we are ok with each other but as soon as we are in our respective countries, Patriotism and hatred comes in our minds. People like 'FROMIDNIA' are responsible to stir the relations, cause conflicts because they are too stubborn to accept the truth and reality.
If we talk on facts and figures, then my friends this lifetime is not enough to come to a conclusion. Lahorigirl & LadyDehli, whatever their origins are, are accepting the fact that what FromIndia thinks of India is just one side of the Picture and same goes for Pakistan. What have our countries achieved? They are Nuclear power but what about the poverty. Aren't there any tax thieves in both countries? Why are you guys going into the conspiracies caused by our politicians?
There will not be an end to this or any other argument involving the two countries because there is no neutral body to decide how is the worst. As is said earlier, rather than picking on others we should correct our selves.
TO FromINDIA:
You may be intelligent, experienced and living in the land of fairies, houses made of chocolate; I regret to say that you are not a good learner, I am sorry if this sounds bad but your learning ability has stopped.
TO the Ladies:
I think what ever you try to say or prove, he will never learn because he is acting as an optimist or shall I say he is like a bird that thinks upon closing the eyes the cat will not eat it.
Thanks for reading
Raja
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21 Aug 2009, LadyDelhi wrote:
OH MY GOD.......THE BBC MODERATORS REMOVED and SABOTAGED MY POST...!
All the records in the post are verifiable from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and numerous other reports and books. I am more than prepared to provide the books and links to BBC.
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Could we ask that you also share with us these Amnesty and Human Rights Watch links where your numbers are corroborated? Especially, the figures you give vis. Harminder Sahib (aka The Golden Temple). Much obliged!
In general, it is amusing for me to see that a harmless blog talking about a book from surprising quarters -- praising Jinnah and absolving him from being THE "architect" of India's partition has turned into a platform for venting by assorted "Khalistanis" (I thought they were extinct?) and graduates of Wahabi Madrassas dotted in that great land West of India. Maybe, we should all collectively thank BBC for making this possible. At the very least, some very angry souls can relieve the pressure that seems to be consuming them.
India, my dears, has been around in various forms, and with all its contradictions for at least four thousand years. It is an enduring story of humankind. And, now it is slowly emerging (along with its ancient sister China) from centuries of stupor. Already, it is the fifth largest GDP in the World. Current projections are that by the year 2020, it will be in the top three. Indians of all creed are excelling in their fields in every country they have chosen to live in. Pakistan, on the other hand, is a basket case. If not for American and Saudi funding, it would have been farther down the road to disintegration. Americans are keeping it propped up under the illusion that Pakistan's army will fight their war on "terrorism". Patriotic Pakistanis should use this fact to moderate their views and reevaluate their stance towards India. Their bread is really buttered on the East -- not West. The sooner this sinks in, the better for them (and for the rest of the world). Else, we will be soon dealing separately with the Islamic states of Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan, and Pakhtoonistan.
To paraphrase a famous urdu dialog from an old Bollywood movie -- "Khoon Bahane Se Pahale, Khoon Pehchanana Sikho" (Before you spill any blood, learn to recognize it first). India is not your enemy. False pride, ignorance, and bravado is. Just look at your successful co-religionists in India -- from the Prime Minister down. Shouldn't that tell you something? Or you still think dredging up old swamps to find things to be angry about is the right way to go?
In the spirit of full disclosure, let me hasten to add: I am not a Hindu per se. I was born into a Hindu family but am a raving agnostic -- bordering on atheist. And my family and friends welcome my "apostasy". I still carry my head on my shoulders. That is the greatness of India.
Hopefully, my homilies from America will help calm some frayed nerves.
Signed:
Injun_NC
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May god forgive these senseless, abused pakistani people(rajafarrukh,Ladydelhi,lahori_girl). They say they have no time to blog and keep bloging. They say not to point at others and keep doing the same. they assume false names and describle them self as they are some one else to defend themself. They support pakistan and they do not identify themself with it. This what happened jinna's pakistan.
Jinna had a great vision to create reproduction system for muslims and increase the population and favor islam and also create a breading ground for terrorism to prove that god will take them to havens and provide many girls to play with. He felt that such system could not be created if he and his followers stay in india. He and his follower finally created a country and started such system. See u can what has it become now. their women were restricted to bedrooms, bathrooms and kitchens only. they are just reproducting machines for them. These people got so suppresed and abused that every now and then they ran out of the country to seek refuge in other countries. Jinna successfuly created a platform. U can see for ur self what pakistan has become now. They not only producing terrorists, they are using to other countries to kill people under the promise that they will find many girls in haven to play with. U know what kasab now is complaining that he could not find them in indian jail. he is pleading to atleat give pigs biriyanni. Look what has become now. they have come to a stay that every muslim around the world disassociate with them.
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21 Aug 2009, FromIndia wrote: (a lot of silly things)
If I may, FromIndia, please do not spread falsehoods. Kasab is asking for "mutton" biryani and NOT "pig" biryani as you write. See:
(http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/city/mumbai/Kasab-refuses-food-in-jail-says-he-wants-Mutton-Biryani-/articleshow/4864027.cms)
Also, what is it that you are trying to say? Where are you getting all this nonsense about Jinnah's vision? High rate of Muslim procreation has nothing to do with him. All Judeo-Christian religions exhort their followers to "Go forth and multiply". So, think your posts through before you put them here. There is no reason to invite unnecessary ridicule and scorn.
Thank you!
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TO injun_nc ,
I agree with u. I have placed presented facts in an unacceptable manner. Who one can do if these ignorants see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Every attempt I made to convince them that they were wrong and propogating wrong information appears to failed to enlighten them. Yes kasab asked for mutton biriyani. Do u think we should him. Yes Jinna did not dream about what has pakistan become to day. But isn't that true that pakistan has become a breading ground for terrorism and extremist. Their people, government and media did every attempt to deny the mumbai episode only to accept that their people are responisble for it. Even after fining the links to their country, they let go all the culprits. Pakistan did every attempt to protect them from being punished. What kind of people are they and country is it. Here we have people trying teach how india should be? Should we listen to these people.
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TO injun_nc:
There is limit to every thing. These not the people to talk about moral valued. They do not mean any thing to them. Most of the pakistani's I met are full of false pride or with extreme low esteem. U can find them in this forum itself
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At 4:07pm on 21 Aug 2009, LadyDelhi wrote: You disrespected me when all I did was post a comment to Lahori-girl.....you called me a "Khalistani" and talked about Wahabi Madrassas in the same sentence. This was obviously in an attempt to link what I had said about violence and terror against minorities by the government of India to the idea of 'terrorists' whether in the Punjab, Kashimir or Pakistani.
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I must apologize to you LadyDelhi for I did not mean to hurt you personally. I did find your numbers rather outlandish.....but again, that is no reason to make you feel bad. Sorry about that. Yes, excesses of Indian authorities should be made public and those found guilty should be punished without mercy. I will also accept that Indian police is a blemish on the Indian landscape. It is a corrupt and inept force that is not worthy of India's emerging profile. There is ample evidence of their complicity in major crimes -- e.g., the anti Sikh rioting in New Delhi following the murder of Indira Gandhi and Gujerat riots. I am also aware of serious re-think that is going on to revamp them and bring them up to snuff. But again, there are limits to what rules and regulations can do if the individuals who are inducted in the force are corrupt to begin with. We will see.
Anyway, please accept my sincere apologies.
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Just to make my weekend better. I am sorry if I have hurt any one? If some one want to present facts it is ok. But under that disgise do not present false information. Do not try to assume false identity. Be honest and truthful for once.
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I have been visiting this blog on and off from last three days. I didn’t have any intention to put any comments, but I came across comment number 90 from a fellow Indian American “injun_nc” and I am here to support it. He has clearly expressed the present situation of Pakistan with respect to India. I agree that it is high time that ‘thinking’ population of Pakistan should understand that India is not responsible for their woes as the Pakistani media and leaders love to portray.
To LadyDelhi,
Although you are not completely wrong on situation of minorities in India but I do not agree with your account and numbers regarding operation blue star and will not subscribe to the idea that a common non-Sikh Indian have any prejudice or animosity against Sikhs.
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To Deep22
I agree with you that the common non-Sikh Indian has no animosity against Sikhs but what really bothers me is that the average non-Sikh Indian has not spoken up against the atrocities that occurred either during Operation Blue Star or the Nov 1984 pogroms. This implies complicity when no voice is raised in protest....why did the intellectual Hindus not rise up against this like the intellectual Americans have spoken up against Guantanomo Bay (spelling?)...see the documentry "Taxi to the Dark Side" on how the Americans have stood up for their values and exposed the truth of the Bush Government.
Here are some facts on Operation Blue Star- Myth vs Reality
On Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindranwale
Before 1984: "For all I know, he [Bhindranwale] is completely innocent and is genuinely and exclusively dedicated to the teaching of the Guru."
Arjun Shoune, Indian Express, 13th May 1982 (Media celebrity who became BJP member)
After 1984: "Whatever Bhindranwale’s involvement, the government had no concrete evidence and the ministry thought it inadvisable to arrest him on a flimsy case only to have him acquitted and transformed into a hero."
Vir Sanghvi, Imprint, 1986 (now writes for Hindustan Times
SK Sinha (Retired Indian Army General): “The Army Action was not the ‘last resort’ as Prime Minister Indira Gandhi would have us to believe… It had been in her mind for more than 18 months… Shortly after the Akali agitation of 1982, the Army began rehearsals of a commando raid near Chakrata Contonment in the Doon Valley, where a complete replica of the Golden Temple complex had been built… Another training involving Aviation Research Centre Commandos was given in the Sarsawa area and Yamuna bed in helicopters converted into gunships.”
Lt. Gen. SK Sinha, Spokesman, 16th July 1984
On Humility
Indian Army: General K. Sundarji claimed, “We went inside with humility in heart and prayers on our lips.”
Operation Bluestar, 1993
Reality: "Karnail Kaur, a young mother of three children… said, ‘When people begged for water some jawans [soldiers] told them to drink the mixture of blood and urine on the ground."
Mrs. Gandhi’s Last Battle, 1985
Reality: "On Saturday, medical workers in Amritsar said soldiers had threatened to shoot them if they gave food or water to Sikh pilgrims wounded in the attack and lying in the hospital."
Christian Science Monitor, 8 June 1984
GOI: “No women or children were killed in the action by troops"
White Paper on the Punjab Agitation 1984
Reality: “… a team of doctors… examined 400 corpses, including 100 women and 15 to 20 children, all under five and including a two-month-old baby.”
Associated Press, 13th June 1984
CKC Reddy (Hindu writer): "The whole of Punjab and especially the Golden Temple Complex, was turned into a murderous mouse trap from where people could neither escape nor could they seek succor of any kind...The bodies of the victims of military operation in Punjab were unceremoniously destroyed without any attempt to identify them and hand them over to their relatives …The most disturbing thing about the entire operation was that a whole mass of men, women, and children were ordered to be killed merely on the suspicion that some terrorists were operating from the Golden Temple and other Gurdwaras. There had been no judicial verdict of guilt against definite individuals who had been taking shelter in the Golden Temple."
Reddy, C.K.C., et. al., Army Action in Punjab: Prelude & Aftermath, New Delhi: Samata Era Publication, 1984, p. 46-48.
Joyce Pettigrew (Irish Anthropologist): “The initial crime was celebrated and indeed had been planned a year before hand.. The army went into Darbar Sahib not to eliminate a political figure or a political movement but to suppress a culture of people, to attack their heart, to strike a blow at their spirit and self confidence.... The army which had suffered a heavy toll in the 3 days of battle went berserk and killed every Sikh man, women and child who could be found inside the temple complex. They were hauled out of the rooms, brought to corridors on the circumference of the temple and with their hands tied behind their backs, were shot in cold blood."
Pettigrew, Joyce. "The Sikhs of the Panjab: Unheard Voices of the State and Guerrilla Violence" (1995), p. 8.
Ram Narayan Kumar (Hindu Human Rights Activist): “The Operation Bluestar was not only envisioned and rehearsed in advance, meticulously and in total secrecy, it also aimed at obtaining maximum number of Sikh victims, largely devout pilgrims unconnected with the political agitation. The facts should speak for themselves.”
Ram Narayan Kumar, The Sikh Struggle and The Sikh Unrest & The Indian State, Ajanta Books International, Delhi, 1997
Cynthia Keppley Mahmood (American Anthropologist): "When it [the Indian army] attacked the Golden Temple complex at Amritsar in 1984, containing the holiest shrine of the Sikhs, the ostensible aim was to rid the sacred buildings of the militants who had taken up shelter inside. But the level force used in the attack was utterly incommensurate with this limited and eminently attainable aim. Seventy thousand troops, in conjunction with the use of tanks and chemical gas, killed not only the few dozen militants who didn’t manage to escape the battleground but also hundreds (possibly thousands) of innocent pilgrims, the day of the attack being a Sikh holy day. The Akal Takht, the seat of temporal authority for the Sikhs, was reduced to rubble and the Sikh Reference Library, an irreplaceable collection of books, manuscripts, and artefacts bearing on all aspects of Sikh history, burned to ground. Thirty-seven other shrines were attacked across Punjab on the same day. The only possible reason for this appalling level of state force against its own citizens must be that the attempt was not merely to “flush out,” as they say, a handful of militants, but to destroy the fulcrum of a possible mass resistance against the state."
Mahmood, Cynthia Keppley, “Dynamics of Terror in Punjab and Kashmir,” Jeffrey A. Sluka, ed., Death Squad: The Anthropology of State Terror, Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2000, p. 77.
Subramaniam Swami (Hindu Indian Politician): “Government of India master-minded disinformation campaign to create legitimacy for its actions. Its goal was to ‘make out that the Golden Temple was the haven of criminals, a store of armoury and a citadel of the nation’s dismembment conspiracy.”
Imprint, July 1984, “Creating a Martyr”, by Subramaniam Swami, pp. 7-8.
A.R. Darshi (A Hindu, Former Joint Secretary to the Punjab Government): "The Sikh fighters had no line of communication and source of supply. They were totally cut off from the state. the country and the world. They were completely besieged in the Golden Temple Complex, particularly inside the Akal Takht. Supply of electricity and water was cut off. They had no reserves to reinforce their positions. They had nothing to eat but roasted grains, nothing to drink but their own sweat oozed from their bodies due to scorch¬ing heat. They had no place to answer the call of nature. They could not sleep for seven days and seven nights. They were exhausted and weared out under these horri¬ble conditions. On the other hand Indian Army had all sorts of provisions, facilities, reserves and what not. Yet the Sikhs fought gallantly and demonstrated their remarkable valour, courage and fighting skill. Yet they held the well equipped Indian Army at bay for five days and gave it a bloody reply, the reply which the Army would remember for ever. Had the militant Sikhs been equally armed, had their numerical strength been even one-tenths of the In¬dian Army, they would have pushed the
Acknowledgments are made to all sources which are quoted.
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To LadyDelhi,
Thanks for all the quotes above. But, I think you have miss took my stand. I am not denying blue star or what happened afterwards. It was all horrendous. As for your other comment—
"
MY HEART BLEEDS FOR THE INNOCENTS WHO SUFFER...AND YET YOU (HINDUS) KEPT QUIET! WHY?????????????"
I really don’t want to discuss my faith on this Blog, but you are so blinded in haste to just push this topic that you just assumed who I am. I was a 7 year old Sikh boy in 1984 whose family gave refuge to two other Sikh families during riots. But I still stand by my previous comment that I will not subscribe to the idea that a common non-Sikh Indian have any prejudice or animosity against Sikhs. Please take your hate elsewhere.
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LadyDelhi wrote: (a whole lot one sided -- self serving details)
What would you like to see happen? Let us start from there? If I may, what is it you are trying to prove? That Hindus are blood thirsty people who kill minorities at the drop of a hat? If not, then what? I can give you just as many details of Bhindranwale (on tape) where he is exhorting his militants to go and kill "topi wallas" -- i.e., Hindus. His hate filled sermons from inside the sacred temple complex are on the web for all to hear. The killings of innocents in Punjab by him and his band of terrorists that preceded the assault on him have been documented in great detail. Then I can show you photos of Sikhs in all parts of India dancing and distributing sweets after the murder of Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards. But what would that accomplish? Tit for Tat?
Sikhs are a revered group in India. And of all people you should know that there was a tradition among Hindu families in Punjab of "donating" their eldest sons up to be brought up as Sikhs. Unlike Islam, it is an indigenous faith. Everyone I know in India regards Sikhs as an integral part of the Indian family and harbors nothing but fondness for them. Unfortunately, violence begets violence. However, it can never be condoned. Many people who are guilty of violently reacting against the Sikhs after Indira Gandhi died are still around. A true reckoning will only happen after they die. What is the point of nursing such a grudge that you are ready to condemn a whole nation?
Also, if I may add, most, if not all the quotes you cite are from so called "Hindu" sources. Does that mean anything? Lastly, it might help you to know that my parents hid a Sikh family in 1984 when a mob attacked them when their boys let off firecrackers in Lucknow to celebrate the death of Indira Gandhi. My hope is that you can factor the good and bad together and reach a measured conclusion.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
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LadyDelhi,
Since you are the champion of human rights, I recommend you to read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims#In_India
Now, YOU count the crimes of Hindus and Muslims and give me the figures.
I'm eagerly looking forward for the first Pakistani blogger to say "Wikipedia is controlled by Hindus. Its funded by CIA, Mossad & RAW. Those agencies have a dedicated 'wikipedia wing' to promote their lies in the internet. Its an evil plot to malign the peaceful religion of Islam, where there are NO terrorists (may be few practitioners who like to blow themselves up for 72 virgins, but thats about it)...." (gotta give it to you guys, great entertainment ! dont stop !!! :) )
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“India” is as much a country as the Equator: Sir Winston Churchill
Real name “Hindustan”…too hard for British to pronounce
The origins of the word Anglacized “India” Come from Hind
Sindhu…Hindhu…
Sindh….Hindh…
Sindh…Sindhi..
Hindhi …Indus…India..
The monkier “Sindhi” or “Hindi” categorized those living on the banks of the Indus….not those who live on the Ganges
Pakistanis live on the banks of the Indus. Indians don’t..they live on the banks of the Ganges..
Ganges residents should be called “Ganghans”
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I have been going thru comments on this blog for last few days and regarding comments #99, 104 and 107 i must say that there has been viloence against minorities in India
To LadyDelhi:
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We all need to be vigilant against violation of human rights ....whether Sikh, Christian or Muslim...
We did not pay heed to the violence of 1984 because we were not Sikhs, then we had the violence of 2002 against Muslims and now the killing of Christians......
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what these lines suggest human rights violations against minorities what about the HIndus aren't thay human :(
both sides has suffered in this violence. Mumbai attacks, operation bluestar, indira gandhi assasin, gujarat riots and parttion riots whatever it was attack on minority or majority, one can not justify use of violence....
Jinaah wished that indo-pakistan relation will be like that of USA and Canada. Unfortunately it turned out completely opposite cause partition was on religious lines. Forcing people to live in a country is no good. so may be partition was justified but one must remember that Unity is Strength. You cannt divide a country into thousand parts based upon launguage, religion... it will be same situation like rajwara before the advent of English. there wont be any prosperity.
Bhindrawala was just a puppet in the political struggle between akali dal and congress which later slipped out of the hands of its master and turned very violent... So an operation like bluestar was imminent.
yes there was large scale violence and discrimination but this always occurs when you are at war like this.
now what we need to learn from history is that political parties play with the sentiments of common man.
there is nothing good in revenge.
Partition was history what we need to do is stop terroising people of other contry
like India is doing in Balochistan and pakistan in kashmir....
Europeans ruled the whole world at one point of time and we should learn from them like NATO unification of europe they have done. stop beating the bush about past.
India and pakistan both need huge reforms in politics, education , health and many other sectors.
To FromIndia:
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Jinna had a great vision to create reproduction system for muslims and increase the population and favor islam and also create a breading ground for terrorism to prove that god will take them to havens and provide many girls to play with. He felt that such system could not be created if he and his followers stay in india. He and his follower finally created a country and started such system. See u can what has it become now. their women were restricted to bedrooms, bathrooms and kitchens only. they are just reproducting machines for them.
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Jinaah barely followed any muslim namaz system and other rituals. he was modern in view. hew wished a prosperous pakistan and neighbourhood. If partition at that time was a fault it was on both sides. Mountbatten and british govt had plans for 1948 for giving freedom in order for proper transfer of population but it was indians and pakistani which showed no patience and then british did nothing to prevent rioting. they were in no situation after WW2 to accomodate this.
YOur comment about pakistani women is very pathetic. same thing europeans can say about Indian women. there are parts in India where they still glorify sati system. Hindus worship those places. still there is biasing against lower castes. not in rule but in the minds. still inter-caste marriage is frowned upon.
We need to change all this.
And pakistan is doing the same in the name of religion. we are human first and religion comes second.
Lets learn from europeans which they learned after such disastrous WW2 that there is nothing worth fighting. political ambitions need to be checked.
Clapping never occurs with a single hand..
very unfortunate that we South asians still fighting on the same issue. banning of this book is very undemocratic behavior by gujarat govt. there should be freedom of speech. Vallabh patel can not be hero for everyone and Jinaah villain for every indian. both made some good decisions some bad one. just accept the facts. dont be a blind follower . attrocities are on both sides , corruption also.
first let us solve our basic food, shelter water problem ...
there are many other ways then fighting to resolve the conflicts
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