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Will gamers want to Kinect or Move?

Rory Cellan-Jones | 10:25 UK time, Monday, 14 June 2010

Los Angeles: If you want to see the future, head for a games convention.

The computer and video games industry has poured billions into innovation over the last decade, particularly since it became a new front in the battle for the home between giants like Sony and Microsoft.

They used their Playstation and Xbox platforms to experiment with rival high-definition video systems; Sony's Blu-ray won that battle.

At this week's E3 event in Los Angeles, both companies are unveiling innovative ways of interacting with their consoles. In that mission, they are trying to steal a march on Nintendo which proved with the Wii that new ways of playing games could be just as important as fancy graphics.

KinectMicrosoft last night unveiled the results of Project Natal, the hefty research project which promised to turn the bodies of game players into human console controllers.

It will now be known as Kinect, and is scheduled to hit the shops in November, just in time to give the video games industry a much-needed boost in pretty hard times.

The launch had lashings of Hollywood razzmatazz, with a bevy of stars parading along a red carpet into a performance by Cirque du Soleil. For some reason I still can't quite understand, I found myself interviewing Jack Osborne about the future of gaming.

Cirque du SoleilAnyway, down to business. The system centres on a sensor which you place above or below your TV - it has three cameras plus voice recognition built in, so it knows an awful lot about who you are, how far away you're standing and how you are moving.

We filmed Kinect just before the celebs flooded in to have their go, and I got a chance to play a couple of games. One involved steering a dinghy down through the rapids, another was a hurdle race, one of a series of sports games.

It was an enjoyable, if sweaty, half-hour, and I could certainly see the attractions of throwing away the control and just flinging yourself at the game.

But I was not quite convinced that Microsoft's technology would deliver for hard-core gamers. It seemed to work well on fun Wii-like games where you didn't need too much precision - I'm not so sure how whether it would deliver on a first-person shooter.

I've also had a go on Sony's Move motion control system, which is unveiled on Tuesday. Sony's solution is much less radical. It has retained the controller, now adorned with glowing spheres which interact with a sensor unit on the television.

This makes the whole experience less physical than with Kinect, but it also delivers a lot more precision. Sony showed us a table tennis game which seemed to mimic the real thing much more closely than I have seen elsewhere.

But everyone in the games industry, and particularly the developers, is hoping that these innovations get gamers excited enough to start spending money again.

They might prefer to see new consoles; failing that, an accessory which obliges the customer to get some new games may just do the trick.

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  • Comment number 1.

    Even though I prefer Xbox 360 on the whole, PS Move seems more appealing to me. Gamers will want precision when they play a game; I know I get very annoyed when something in-game doesn't react the way I intended. Kinect will have to be amazingly good to get me to buy it, because at the moment, I'm not sold on it. PS Move on the other hand seems like the decent buy, although E3 should shed some more light on both; here's hoping they both exceed my expectations!

  • Comment number 2.

    Sounds a bit desperate to me. I don't think the hardcore gamers market will be place for this. It's more for ppl who have an Xbox/PS3 and don't want to buy a wii for family games.

    I guess if you are someone who has a Xbox/PS3 and want to play family games it will be right up your street.

  • Comment number 3.

    I really don't think Kinect/Natal will work for me and I think my interest in it will be the same as it was for the Wii. Great for a laugh but the novelty will wear of quickly when it comes to more hardcore games.
    When I play first person shooters or driving games I like them to be as real as possible. Whilst adding motion tracking and putting you 'in' the game does help realism, removing the physical gun, steering wheel, light sabre, etc, reduces realism. My car has a real steering wheel and pedals, why take them away for the virtual world.

  • Comment number 4.

    This is a long way off letting you run through multiplayer call of duty etc and is just a Wii rip-off.

    People already have a Wii gathering dust under their TVs, do they need another one? Do they have room in their houses to play it?

    Why not spend the millions spent developing this by investing in some of the Startups who develop apps for the IPad etc with new and innovative games that the consumer really want? - Buying Zenga 2 years ago would have made millions.
    Then again, when Microsoft bought Rare we wished for the next Perfect Dark etc, the 10/10 games that make people open their wallets on mass. Instead we get clones and downloadable content. Innovate or Die XBox!

  • Comment number 5.

    If there's anything we've learned over the past decade or two, it's that few new control methods to an existing console last more than a few games. The list of ones that do last is mostly made up of upgraded controllers (see: Mega Drive, Saturn, twice with the PlayStation).

    Arguably the only non-controllers that have lasted are the light gun the PlayStation got as used in the likes of Point Blank and Time Crisis, and the now notorious guitar that is a staple from Guitar Hero to Guitar Hero 5 Beatles Green Day Alpha Championship Edition Turbo Tournament.

    (Yes I did just compare the slew of Guitar Hero titles to those of Street Fighter II).

    Those aside, there have been more than a few non-starter peripherals of late, up to and including the Wii "MotionPlus" that almost no game bothered to use.

    More worryingly for Project Natal is that the screen-top camera idea has been tried before not too long ago with the PlayStation 2's "EyeToy" that saw maybe 3 games supporting it. If Microsoft want it to get anywhere they should put the encouragement of developer support as the number 1 priority, over investing in its accuracy.

    Sony's Move however isn't so much a Project Natal clone as it is a Wii Remote clone, reports of the not too few similarities suggesting that Sony is attempting to take the setup and add precision both as a way to attract the casual market and as a statement to say "we make this better".

    Ultimately though if they only see half a dozen games each, few will consider them worth the added cost and the lack of owners will see developers not bother. It'll take a considerable amount of sustained support to see either of these peripherals really take off.

  • Comment number 6.

    As usual it's going to be hard to wade through the Microsoft haters, Sony/Nintendo fanboys and trolls on this blog.

    If Kinect succeeds will be down to two things…how well it works and (mainly) what the games are like. For it to succeed it will have to be substantially better than the Wii controller (which won't be hard) and also have much better games than the Wii. MS could go down the route of trying to do what the Wii does only better but I doubt that is their plan. Instead I'm looking to see them integrate the Kinect into the "grown up" games that are the bread and butter of the platform. No-one wants gimmicky games with no real substance that you tire of quickly, we want the games we already know and love…only better.

    It's when we see Kinect start to get integrated into games proper that we'll know if it will be a long-term success or not. Development houses are already in the process of integrating the system and hopefully it won't be too long until we see the results. Until that happens, don't judge the system on the launch titles as they are really just tech demos and proof of concept. So far though I have to say I'm impressed but not surprised - this is MS at its innovative best. The XBOX kicked the stagnant console market into the next gen, and maybe this will kick it even further.

  • Comment number 7.

    This is going to be interesting but the cost is going to be the major deal breaker. If the addition to my xbox costs more or a similar price to the wii then I believe they may struggle to get the pay back for the investment. Microsoft obviously believe that the market is there for it but only time will tell if it is.

  • Comment number 8.

    Hardcore gamers don't game on Xbox's and PS3's anyway they use PC's so it doesn't matter if Kinect wont appeal to them.

  • Comment number 9.

    "Hardcore gamers don't game on Xbox's and PS3's anyway they use PC's so it doesn't matter if Kinect wont appeal to them."

    If the technology works and acts to improve games it might be something PC gamers will be interested on seeing transferred the to PC platform.

  • Comment number 10.

    I've always been more of a PS fan than Xbox. However, when I saw one of the earliest videos of Project Natal, what really appealed to me was not the motion alone, but the combination of motion and artifical intelligence. It showed a family playing a quiz where they just had to bang their fist on their hand to push the buzzer, the system knew who you were, asked for you by name, and understand your spoken response. There was another video that showed a demonstrator interacting with a little boy on screen in a very true-to-life conversation.

    This is where I feel the Kinect is ahead of the rest ... it's NOT just a motion controller ... it's a whole new way of playing games. Think of that level of intelligent interaction incorporated into a fantasy role play game or an action-adventure title.

    There was another demo that showed a girl playing a driving game and interacting with the game as if she was actually holding the steering wheel and pressing pedals ... but she didn't need to go out and buy wheel and pedal accessories, the system just recognized her movements. This could actually save money ... buy this one accessory and all other accessories become superfluous.

  • Comment number 11.

    @6. Do you work for Microsoft's PR department? If not, I'd apply - you'd fit right in.

    Seriously though, I can't see this working on the 360, though it may have more appeal on the PS3. With the 360, Microsoft have carved themselves pretty much a niche market, with the FPS, action and racing gamers. I cannot see anyone buying a 360 for this when the Wii is already so well established and I can't see the people who bought the 360 originally for the racing/fps/action gaming getting into it.

    I think the PS3 owners may be a better target as some will have bought it for the blu-ray player aspect, from the time when it was the cheapest blu-ray player on the market and they'll have gaming as a 2nd reason for having it. These people may be more interested in sociable gaming and things like the Move may bring them more into that.

  • Comment number 12.

    Quote "I was not quite convinced that Microsoft's technology would deliver for hard-core gamers"

    I think you have missed the point and are totally wide of the mark. It wasn't the hard core gamers that went out and purchased the Wii.

    What Nintendo did was to bring new people to the gaming community. Gaming simplicity with real life motion, children and parents now gaming together.. even my Grandparents have a Wii under the guise of needing one for the great grandchildren (yeah cos them 5 year olds really want to play Tiger Woods golf and F1!!). Wii balance boards allowing people to exercise from their own front room, It gave home entertainment a new dimension.

    For Microsoft and Sony to bring out their versions of motion controllers is only to capture some of this gaming market that is dominated by Nintendo with no competition.

  • Comment number 13.

    Thank god the BBC correspondents and the commenters here don't work for the games industry, as there seems to be a severe lack of imagination or understanding about what Kinect can do judging by the comments made here today.

    It's not a simple Wii rip-off as it allows for much more than that, the Wii is limited to the extremese of your body with which you use controllers, as is Move, whilst Kinect allows for full body interaction opening up far more doors.

    I consider myself a hardcore gamer, and the fault in most peoples comments when considering it's use in such games is that they are making the incorrect assumption that the classic controller and Kinect are mutually exclusive, that is simply not the case.

    There is no reason for example that you can't keep FPS games as they are, and control them with a standard controller, yet use Kinect to allow the user to lean left or right to dodge incoming projectiles, there's no reason it can't allow the player to use hand gestures to command his team mates.

    Effectively what Kinect means is that a whole new set of games are now possible, but existing games, preferred by existing hardcore players can be greatly enhanced by Kinect in ways that neither the Wii or Move allow.

    The Wii didn't appeal to the hardcore audience, and for the precise same reasons Move will not either. Natal at least allows for much more interactivity for the hardcore audience. It is precisely the fact that Kinect is the only control system of the 3 consoles that allows existing controller equipment to be used alongside it, precisely because Kinect is hands free. Whether that's dodging in an FPS whilst controlling with the standard controller, whether that's physically rocking out whilst holding the guitar hero guitar, or whether that's physically dancing whilst using the Lips microphone- Kinect takes what already works, and makes it better, as well as simply opening the door for something new.

  • Comment number 14.

    I'm quite interested in how Natal, or as its now going to be called Kinect, will change how we interact with the console on a day to day manner. When the promo video came out originally, I remember it showing people interacting with the console menus through hand motions, speaking to family and friends through Xbox Live and the console recognising the users face and voice.

    Wether or not it will be worth the cost though remains to be seen.

  • Comment number 15.

    @Miraglyth #5

    Did you just compare Kinect with the EyeToy? Please do some research before commenting. I suppose your attitude is indicative of what the majority of people are going to say. They have no idea what Kinect is, how it works or what it can do. It is not just another motion control device, it isn’t a Wii style controller or anything else. This is completely new and there is no comparison to anything on the market right now.

    @aardfrith #11

    So recognising when Microsoft do something that is actually good means you have to work for them? You can scoff all you want, but remember what consoles were before MS brought out the XBOX and now all console manufacturers have copied the format.

    To say that MS have a niche market also shows a lack of knowledge of the market, and you are again making the same mistake of saying this is "like the Wii" and implying it will have the same kind of games. The major game manufacturers are building this technology into their new games, and these guys don't write bowling games, shallow tennis games or cooking simulation games. The Wii has that market sewn up pretty well, but MS will be looking to expand into new areas with Kinect.

    @iwinter #13

    I agree. People should look at the demos (you'll find them under YouTube for when it was called Natal) to see what this technology actually *is* rather than assuming it is a Wii rip-off.

  • Comment number 16.

    @Aidy #6 and #15:
    "Did you just compare Kinect with the EyeToy? Please do some research before..."

    ...yes, yes, jump straight to the insults. I'm well aware that Kinect can do more than the EyeToy, but the former is 6~7 years newer and borne from an insustry that's grown considerably in that time.

    It still doesn't change that it will be seen by the masses as something quite unconventional (as you yourself point out!) and for all its capabilities it will need to have a low entry point (i.e. cost) and to be used in more than a couple of token games.

    After all, to take an extreme example, if it is only released with one game ever - let's call it "Kinect Play" - it's going to flop! Surely that's not disagreeable, and it is a recognised issue that has plagued many a peripheral over the last decade or two so I don't think it's an unfair comment to make on my part.

    If you want you could spin it by optimistically posting "Well it'll work with 100 games before the end of the year!" and all is good. On that subject, I can't help but make one further comment regarding yours so far:

    "So recognising when Microsoft do something that is actually good means you have to work for them?"

    I hate to point this out, but thusfar your comments have been obviously slanted, from the first line in your opening comment of "As usual it's going to be hard to wade through the Microsoft haters, Sony/Nintendo fanboys and trolls on this blog", as if there was no such thing as Sony/Nintendo haters, Microsoft fanboys, or neutrals.

  • Comment number 17.

    There are a number of people on here talking down the WII and treating it like the poor relation of the 360 or PS3. And saying that this gadget has nothing to do with the success of the WII controller.

    However it's worth remembering this quote from the Financial Times in May of this year:

    "Cumulative sales of the Wii have now reached 70.9m compared with the Xbox 360’s sales of more than 40m"

    Whichever way you look at it, that's a good piece of business. And when you factor in the lower cost of game development, the Nintendo product is a far more profitable proposition that the lower-margin, lower-volume sales of "hardcore gamer" platforms.

    Financial facts auch as these will certainly influence the likes of MS when developing new products - and no doubt drive them to try and appeal to some of that lucrative market, while still keeping their "hardcore gamer" credentials.

  • Comment number 18.

    @Miraglyth #16

    "jump straight to the insults"

    You have a funny idea about what an insult is. You compared Kinect which tracks your body and limbs as a dynamic entity and intelligently works out what you are doing with a cheap webcam that is capable of almost tracking a very simple thing. I was simply asking you to research more, it was a request and not an insult.

    "After all, to take an extreme example, if it is only released with one game ever - let's call it "Kinect Play" - it's going to flop! Surely that's not disagreeable"

    Of course that would be the case....but I know for a fact that major game devs are integrating Kinect into their up-coming releases. So rather than pointing out where others have failed before as if implying MS will follow the same route, let's just wait and see what happens with it. As I your research before commenting.

  • Comment number 19.

    @Aidy #18
    "You have a funny idea about what an insult is."

    Wow. That double-sided line is either intentional (in which case, very impressive) or amusing.

    "You compared..."

    ...yes, and is that an attack on you the person in some way?

    I haven't condescendingly told you to do something that I in turn assume you haven't - incidentally, the guise of a request does not validate that, and your final sentence in #18 even drops that pretense by turning it into a command.

  • Comment number 20.

    I can see plenty of appeal. Kinect for 360 is obviously step one of the future upgrade to Xbox 3, which will include Kinect as standards, but the 360 version is going to test the appeal and future abilities of the platform.

    I can see that this technology might be great for family games, but I can see it enhancing things like racing games and first person shooters. Imagine playing Halo, and being able to peak behind the wall...

    The advantage will really come when we get true 3D (with no glasses) TV in the home. 3D depth perception for the user, and 3D depth perception for the console will take this to a completely different level. This is the one advantage this tech has over Sony and Nintendo.

  • Comment number 21.

    Regarding the Wii sales, those touting the 70mill sales vs. the Xbox's 40mill must keep in mind that Microsoft has over 20 million XBox Live subscribers and sells more software per console than the Wii at a ratio of about 7:3, whilst also selling titles at a higher price, and also selling more content on it's online marketplace.

    Console sales alone are meaningless in judging business sense if you ignore the core profit centres for consoles- the software itself. Microsoft don't need 70 million units of hardware sold when they have 20 million people paying for Live, paying for content, and buying far more games.

    Miraglyth, I suspect Aidy is frustrated at your comments because you simply seem to be accusing him of insulting you where he hasn't, and complaining that he's pointing out flaws in your argument where they exist. Surely you do not expect to be able to get your point across when it is based merely on falsehoods and crying foul when someone points out said falsehoods? You seem to be coming up with hypothetical scenarios that make no sense in the context of what is already happening- i.e. Microsoft already has a lot of development studios signed up so your hypothetical scenario about Kinect being released with one game is utterly meaningless and irrelevant.

  • Comment number 22.


    Kinect is better because you can add a move-style controller if you wanted, which will probably happen.

  • Comment number 23.

    Personally I see the Move as being very good. It's a vastly upgraded version of what the Wii is doing. However wether it takes off, is unknown. However the rumoured pricetag (£50/$80US) is not too high, and the games offered appear to have broad appeal (from Wii-like sports games, to "proper" games like Socom).

    Personally I don't see Natal taking off. The pricetag (rumored to be £150/$190US), lag, recognition/registration/accuracy problems will put all but the hardcore fans off. The Xbox is already on a decline, and I don't see this stalling that for too long.

  • Comment number 24.


    Early adopters are usually willing to pay more, but if you wait a while until some more and better games come out the price will surely drop. All tech drops in price.

    However even though it isn't released yet, thanks for telling us that there are issues with lag, recognition, registration and accuracy. Seeing as that is the case then you're right, there is no way it will catch on. It will probably crash and break too, my mate is already on his fifth Kinect.


  • Comment number 25.

    @iwinter #21
    "Surely you do not expect to be able to get your point across when it is based merely on falsehoods and crying foul when someone points out said falsehoods?"

    I wouldn't if that were the case, but even leaving aside that I've not actually said anything false, Aidy has been somewhat traditionally moaning about "fanboys", "trolls" and other classic names from the outset of this article - and long before he started this dialogue by being the one to say something about one of my posts. Am I not allowed to be "frustrated" too? I really do think that attitude has been far more abrasive than the apparent "injustice" of comparing x hardware with y hardware.

    As for developer support, I've seen the phrase "we've got lots of developers signed up to our console" fizzle away into nothing dozens of times over the years, from Dreamcast games to EyeToy-using games. I recall Nintendo have unconvincingly used the phrase a few times in each of the last three "generations" as well. Now that's not to suggest that the games aren't coming this time around (for Move as well as Kinect) but is merely a down-to-earth approach to remind that nothing is set in stone until they are released.

  • Comment number 26.

    Most of the comments seem to be of a negative towards this amazing bit of tech, lets not forget its Microsoft vision of having an all in one entertainment system in you're living room. The idea of having gesture control of your DVD/Music/Photo/video library is so good (and green no batteries for the remote)we all remember T cruise in minority report well this is the start. Im a hard core gamer who spends over 7 hrs a day playing online shooters an I for one am really looking forward to this bit of tech

  • Comment number 27.

    The Natal "demos" on YouTube were actually ads for a fictitious device with fictitious games/apps. To my mind, none of the games in the YouTube clip were real, e.g. the clothes application or the skateboard game (where the scan miraculously sees through the kids fingers and scans detail from underneath). While the concepts are interesting and the intention is laudable, I don't believe the XBox (or any console) has the processing power to make it work. In addition, the software technology is just not reliable enough to cater very rich and variable human computer interaction. For example, there is no voice recognition application that accurately (i.e. 99.999% of the time) processes voice commands, even in relatively controlled environments, nevermind a livingroom with multiple voices and background noise.

  • Comment number 28.

    Wait a minute...has Kinect been out for years already? How come everyone already knows that the tech can't handle human interaction? That there is no games support? This is what I was talking about with my criticised opening statement....rather than implying that MS is going to fall into the same trap as hardware manufacturers of the past, why not at least wait and see before writing it off?

    It's by no means a guaranteed success, but neither is it a guaranteed failure. It is a fairly big gamble on innovative gaming technology and if MS pull it off then it could be huge. If it falls on its face then it'll go in the cupboard with HD-DVD and your EyeToy.

  • Comment number 29.

    I must admit I am sceptical about these new devices but as someone above mentioned, the possibility of being able to use the control pad and the movement device as an enhancement does sound quite appealing. I hope this works out but I'll not be the first to buy either device.

  • Comment number 30.

    "How come everyone already knows that the tech can't handle human interaction?"

    Exaggerated reaction there. hedonaut is talking about a non-Kinect which might have misled certain previous posters into being incorrectly optimistic. Nothin' wrong with that.

    "...and your EyeToy."

    I'd point out that I've never owned a PlayStation device beyond the original grey block or that I own a 360 and play it more than the Wii, but since I'm not hyped about something I haven't tried yet I'm clearly a troll and a fanboy of the enemy. Who knew?

  • Comment number 31.

    Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted the rather ambiguous "I don't believe the XBox (or any console) has the processing power to make it work"


  • Comment number 32.

    My main concern is that most day's I don't play my Wii because after a hard day working (cue violin strings) I don't have the energy to start waving my arms about and would rather just sit on my sofa twiddling my thumbs on a control pad.

    The thought of console games being more interactive and energetic just makes me more likely to upgrade my PC and play more games on that.

  • Comment number 33.

    The general consensus is that the kinect is going to be more powerful than the wii.
    That's great news, I can't wait to control my tv whilst sitting on my sofa while people walk infront of the screen. Plus my COD kill count will go through the roof as I take out all the tired people running in front of their TVs to control the game.

    Microsoft shouldn't launch with tech demo games. They might as well say we don't know what to do with this. Atleast Apple when they say 'we look forward to seeing where developers take this' give developers support and have proven what their well built tech can do first.

  • Comment number 34.

    I'm far more interested in seeing the brain-wave interpreter controller that's already been out for PC for at least a year being developed further.

    It might be one of those few times when the gaming industry directly aids (and is aided by) medical science.

  • Comment number 35.

    Here is the best bit.

    Microsoft's PS2 EyeToy rip-off named after a PS2 EyeToy game. You really couldn't make it up...

  • Comment number 36.


    "As usual it's going to be hard to wade through the Microsoft haters, Sony/Nintendo fanboys and trolls on this blog."

    "it will have to be substantially better than the Wii controller (which won't be hard)"

    "this is MS at its innovative best. The XBOX kicked the stagnant console market into the next gen, and maybe this will kick it even further."

    Jumping straight to accusing everyone else of being fanboys, praising MS for innovation when it's simply bringing an old idea to a new generation, bad-mouthing something that's not MS, that sounds like a PR department at work to me.

  • Comment number 37.

    "The XBOX kicked the stagnant console market into the next gen"

    kicked it into the next-gen with it's broken hardware, PS2-era DVD drive and lack of HDMI and 1080p..

    Yeh right.... Wake up....

  • Comment number 38.

    Kinect. Who wants to wave glowing balls of light on sticks when you could just use your voice and body? The great thing about Kinect is that it means you can play serious games and wii style games on the same console. Also hopefully it will be cheaper than a wii. So one box, better graphics and less risk of TV's getting smashed by remotes and more natural. I think Kinect wins by long way (even though I keep wanting to type Kinetic instead of Kinect)

  • Comment number 39.

    I won't be buying a Kinect. I don't have the room to use it and the games look gimmicky to say the least.

    I own a Wii, and regularly enjoy playing hardcore games on it, such as Metroid and I'm really looking forward to Zelda. But, do people really consider the 360 a 'family' console? I don't think they do, and for that reason I think Kinect will be a very slow burner, if one at all.

  • Comment number 40.

    I'm quite surprised by the comments of Rory Cellan-Jones re the perceived imprecision of the Kinect peripheral. I would have thought that a technology writer would have done his research before blurting out misleading comments.

    There's a video showing the development of the hardware by the Israeli contractor who developed it. It quite clearly shows exact replication of the person by the avatar. It's blatantly obvious to me, a non-tech writer, that the precision is in the software. A fun game targeted at the Wii market cannot have you hurdling properly or sprinting properly since the age/ability range targeted would be narrowed.

    The Move is just a light sensitive take on the Wiimote. It can't realistically work in full 3D since it has one camera sensing the motion, which means its a 2D simulation of 3D.

    I predict that there will be a host of games that support real items, like tennis racquets, golf clubs and table tennis bats. That will be followed by games releasing guns which will work with shooters and will have the Mary Whitehouses up in arms.

    I also predict that there will be wider non-gaming applications in industry, a few of which I am currently in talks with a developer with. This is where the real excitement lies with Kinect. Rory, I think you need to expand your imagination and do a little research.

  • Comment number 41.

    Personally i think post #13 - iwinter has it spot on.

    The merging of the existing controller and body movement could be the direction of future gaming. I'd love to have to 'physically' head the ball to score in Fifa or take penalties and free kicks by swinging the old peg at the ball; having to lean whilst also steering with the controller to ride a virtual motorbikes (has its really done); Even pool or snooker could one day make a comeback on consoles if your cue action is taken into account.

    MS have taken a punt with Kinect while Sony have played it a little too safe in my opinion. However for Kinect to be anything more than a gimmick to serious gamers it has to be accurate and it has to have serious games - please no more cartoony games, the last thing the market needs is for games to involve the user pretending to hold a fan and steering little falling tweety birds into back into there nests!!

  • Comment number 42.

    The more i think about it the more i think how football games could be enhanced - looking through the eyes of the manager to gesticulate the formation you want, the goalkeeper sticking 3 fingers up and waving his arms about to sort out the wall, The captain sorting out one of the opposition after a dodgy tackle and also, my god, if the ref sends you off you could go over to him and literally him push him over (also making Winterburn flinch like a little girl too when leaving the pitch by doing a little arm twitch ;) ).

    Now i'm really starting to get excited about the possibilities :)

  • Comment number 43.

    Sadly Kinect didn't impress at much for the casual gamer and casual gamers buy the Wii not the 360. The move should better because Sony is appealing to the hardcore market as well but we will have to wait until the PS3 conference

  • Comment number 44.

    Those people who say it's too casual and the games shown at E3 are too wii like and won't work on the 360 aren't really getting it. When the wii launched there was like only Wii sports and that was with a wiimote and the graphics were rubbish. There will be so many more Kinect games, the ones shown at E3 are the beginning. You will get more hard core games using kinect in the future so discounting the kinect now is kinda stupid.

    And for those who say "is the 360 a family console", well not right now but was the Wii before it was announced/launched? Obviously not because it didn't exist.Currently it's not a family console but with Kinetic it can and will be at the same also being a hardcore gamer's console. Your basically getting both in the same box.

  • Comment number 45.

    All the demos I have seen of Kinect have falled into one of more of these categories:

    1/ Faked by Microsoft (i.e. everything from E3 2009)
    2/ Laggy real demo using Microsoft exployees in carefully selected clothing
    3/ Embarrassingly laggy and unusable demo by technology writer.

    So far, I haven't seen ANYTHING that that PS2 EyeToy wasn't doing 10 years ago.

  • Comment number 46.

    If they want gamers to start spending again then how about some decent games? Or do they mean they want a wave of grannies and 10 yr old girls buying games ala Nintendo?
    As that is what the Kinect market is aimed at - the Nintendo casual crowd.

  • Comment number 47.

    Well the fanboys are all here now and no-one is interested in reasoned debate so this will probably be my last post on this blog.

    @aardfrith #36

    The Wii controller *is* poor, anyone who has used it will probably admit to this. It's granularity isn't very good and has no real accuracy. Try playing the golf game for example and I bet you're throwing the thing across the room. Didn't Nintendo themselves bring out a better version of it with better control? They wouldn't have done that if they didn't acknowledge that the original controller wasn't suitable for all types of games. Now I'm not bashing the Wii as a whole, as the controller doesn't prohibit many of the games from working as intended...however as a piece of tech the controller is not very good.

    "it's simply bringing an old idea to a new generation"

    Not at all, there is nothing like Kinect out there. You just don't understand what it is.

    @MarkG #37

    "kicked it into the next-gen with it's broken hardware, PS2-era DVD drive and lack of HDMI and 1080p.."

    I said the XBOX, not the XBOX 360. For the record, though, the 360 does support HDMI and 1080p so I'm not sure what you're getting at. All consoles now have in-built hard drives and network cards for on-line play, all innovations that MS brought to the market. Sony is still struggling to get an on-line platform that works and works well, and it is massively in the shadow of Live. The only thing in its favour is that it's free to play online with Sony's network...but like all you fanboys if it was Sony with the good network that worked but cost, and MS with the rubbish free one you'd be saying you'd rather have one that worked even if it means having to pay for it. So troll on.

    @Kevin #39

    "I own a Wii, and regularly enjoy playing hardcore games on it, such as Metroid and I'm really looking forward to Zelda. But, do people really consider the 360 a 'family' console? I don't think they do, and for that reason I think Kinect will be a very slow burner, if one at all."

    Someone else who just doesn't "get it". Kinect is not a competitor to the Wii. It will be integrated into "proper" games.

    @MarkG #45

    The technology is barely out and you'll already criticising the games that are available? Be reasonable...getting triple-A titles for the release of *any* hardware is always a hard task. As I've already said many times already, you have to give the dev houses some proper time to get their heads around it before making any judgement calls. Or you could just admit you're a trolling fanboy....

    @averagecitizen #46

    Again, someone who just doesn't understand it but that doesn't stop them from commenting.

  • Comment number 48.

    this will probably be my last post on this blog.

    Let's hope so. For the benefit of the people who are coming back, you shouldn't take Aidy seriously, this is just what he does. When there's a post involving Microsoft at all he's here shouting his support like the most tribal of football fans, blindly lashing out at any opinion and any poster that isn't 100% behind him, and casually throwing around the insults like 'troll' and 'fanboy' in a desperate scramble to make it look like he's on the moral high ground and everyone else is just being unreasonable.

    It's utterly juvenile and utterly transparent.

    You don't have to take my word for it, you can look back at his previous posts (those that haven't been deleted by the BBC moderators, anyway) and decide for yourself. Or you could just not bother, but either way, don't be under any illusions that you're in for a reasoned debate, because you're not.

  • Comment number 49.

    The exciting prospect here is not the inevitable party and casual games (although these are good for attracting non-gamers to the hobby) but the clever incorporation of motion control elements in more controller-based "harcore" titles.
    For example: detecting the player's head movements to control the viewpoint - could enhance a driving game by enabling the player to look towards the next corner's apex, see nearby cars etc.

  • Comment number 50.

    @Aidy I have never read such tripe in all my life.. Let me correct you.

    "the 360 does support HDMI and 1080p so I'm not sure what you're getting at. All consoles now have in-built hard drives and network cards for on-line play, all innovations that MS brought to the market."

    The Xbox360 launched (in a rush) and did not come with HDMI or 1080P support, these were added later (after Sony released the PS3 with both), and Microsoft forced users who wanted it to buy new consoles.

    All 360 consoles DON'T have harddrives, there is a split market where 50% of Xbox 360's only have a small flash memory card. This means game developers can't fully utilize HDD on 360 because half of them don't have one.

    Microsoft didn't bring ANY of these "innovations" to market. The PS3 had HDMI, 1080p and a standard HDD across the range from the outset, infact the PS2 even had a HDD option and 1080i support (via component).

    Microsoft have been playing catchup and copy for the last 10 years. Kinect is a EyeToy copy and the Xbox has always been a PS3 wannabe, and even now still does not match it in features or value for money (unless someone can correct me that the new Xbox slim comes with Blu-Ray and free online play).

  • Comment number 51.

    @everything MarkG posts

    blog readers, I give you your fanboy troll :)

    Hopefully subsequent posters can get back on topic.

  • Comment number 52.

    @ #48 _Ewan_ - A round of applause for you.

    I'd say I'm neutral with respect to Sony/MS but Aidy has managed to make me dislike MS(360) with his constant one sided views and comments.

    @ Aidy - All you seem to do is say anyone who doesn't agree with you 'doesn't get it'. Perhaps your not explaining your self very well or ppl switch of half way through reading your one sided views/press release.

  • Comment number 53.

    @mcgirt808 #52

    "All you seem to do is say anyone who doesn't agree with you 'doesn't get it'. Perhaps your not explaining your self very well"

    It's not me they don't "get", it is the intended market place and workings of the Kinect that they don't get. If people want to give educated opinions they can do their own research as to how it works and what it does, it isn't for me to explain.

    "or ppl switch of half way through reading your one sided views/press release."

    Ah, the classic ad hominem argument of the fanboy. When someone states an opinion that you are prejudiced against it is a "one sided press release", however the one-sided opinions of others that you agree with are ok.

    If anything I've given a fairly balanced state of opinion as I'm not saying this is the best thing since sliced bread, simply that it has incredible potential and we should wait and see if the potential is realised before making a firm mind up. Alas as I predicted from my very first post, the fanboys and the MS-haters are all crawling out the woodwork to bore us with their tedium. Hopefully we can at some point get back to the point of the blog.

  • Comment number 54.

    Aidy, it is an old idea. It's repackaging the VR technology from the 1990s. Remember the tv show Cyberzone, where people wore the helmet and gloves and ran around a VR set solving puzzles? This Kinect is simply updating that, making it smaller, less unwieldy, and putting it into current gaming.

    Like I said, an old idea, repackaged for a new generation.

  • Comment number 55.

    @aardfrith #54

    Alas "Cyberzone" passed me by, but I looked it up on YouTube :) Needless to say this is nothing like Kinect at all. In no way shape or form. You do not understand what Kinct is, how it works, or what it does.


  • Comment number 56.

    " Ah, the classic ad hominem argument of the fanboy."

    As I state at the start of my comment I'm neutral with regards to Sony/MS, something you seem to have edited out when quoting me.

    "When someone states an opinion that you are prejudiced against it is a "one sided press release", however the one-sided opinions of others that you agree with are ok."

    I don't believe I've been prejudiced towards your comments. I agree the new devices have potential and I hope they succeed in moving gaming forward. I'm just a bit sick of your comments ramming the new MS device down everyone’s throat and calling anyone who doesn't agree with you fan boy, troll or not getting it. Sure there have been some slightly biased comments but none as extreme as yours.

    It would be good to get this thread back on topic and for you to stop posting as you said you were going to do earlier.

  • Comment number 57.

    > Sure there have been some slightly biased comments but none as
    > extreme as yours

    LOL, look at most of what MarkG has written and I think you'll find they are much more extreme views....but as I said, it isn't extreme one-sided views you are actually against, it is simply views you don't agree with that you are against. However you obviously feel that an ad hominem attack is preferable to an argument based on facts, so rather than admit you don't agree with what people are saying, you suggest it is the extreme nature and one-sidedness of their views that you don't like. Alas this strategy falls on its face when you suggest I have extreme views (what I have written is available for all to see and any impartial observer will conclude that my comments are certainly not extreme) but completely disregard MarkG's views.

    > It would be good to get this thread back on topic

    On that we can both agree.

  • Comment number 58.

    @Aidy You seem to have problems accepting hard facts, and simply resort to assuming i'm some kind of fanboy. I don't have a preference for either console, however I do have a problem when companies aren't innovating, but riding off the back of others (and worse still fanboys defending them).

    Here are some facts for Aidy.

    FACT: The Xbox360 launched without 1080p (again, Microsoft claimed it wasn't important, and even claimed no games this gen would ever run at 1080p), they then hastily produced a software patch to do 1080p over component (which very few TV's supported), they then started work on the HDMI models)

    FACT: The Xbox360 launched without HDMI (Microsoft claimed it wasn't important, until of course, the Xbox had it, then it was a major feature used to convince existing owners to buy new consoles).

    FACT: Natal/Kinnect is nothing new, it was all done on the PS2 back in 2002 with the EyeToy, including the gesture based interface and body recognition.

    FACT: Half of Xboxes sold are the base model without a harddisk. Over half of Xbox Live accounts are silver that don't include online gaming. This creates a split market that game developers struggle to cater for and it's holding gaming back.

    FACT: Microsoft use proprietary connectors and APIs in their product to increase aftermarket sales and limit competition (HDD, USB memory and Wifi sticks all have to be Microsoft branded).

    FACT: Over half of all Xbox360's sold have failed at least once.

    FACT: Sony offer 99% of what Microsoft offer on the chargeable Live service, for free, in addition Sony offer many services that Microsoft have yet to offer (iPlayer, browser, VidZone, Home and so forth).

    Makes your statement (which clearly isn't FACT) of "this is MS at its innovative best. The XBOX kicked the stagnant console market into the next gen" total fanboy tripe.

  • Comment number 59.

    Yawn! I didn't both reading that, you've got past boring now.

  • Comment number 60.

    Sorry I'll type that again, all your chat is making me so tired I can't type.

    Yawn! I didn't bothER reading that, you've goNE past boring now.

  • Comment number 61.


    No-one is interested in your off-topic trolling. Could we get back to the subject at hand?

  • Comment number 62.

    I cannot believe this gets hype its just a wiimote for PS2 and an over elaborate Microsoft system to do the same.

    I play games because I can't do it in reality, to that end if I need the control of a Jedi to wave my lightsaber I might as well take up Kendo, If I need to be as good at Football as Messi to play Fifa I might as well go out and play football.

    Also in my house I don't have the room to jump about in front of my telly waving my arms about I will break things, I'm not lucky enough to live in one of the houses used to advertise this kind of thing but a modern(ish) British house.

    Considering I call my self a hardcore gamer and I cannot see any reason to own one of these it might be the biggest mistake the games industry has ever made. to justify my hardcore gamer perception I should state I have owned every console since the snes/megadrive era except the Wii and my PC has a graphics card more expensive than most peoples laptops and likely more powerful as well. There just aren't games for people like me being made anymore just pandering to the mass market with things exactly like this motion controlled rubbish.

    I spend a huge amount of my income on games and hardware when there is something worth buying(my last PC was £3000 built myself). However there is currently nothing coming out on any console that interests me and only a handful of titles on the PC, most of those are squeals. By getting more people to buy in to the market they have bitten the hands of gamers for whom they rely on.

  • Comment number 63.

    My word...this is exactly why i don't circumvent gamer message boards...2 morons duking it out over who's opinions are more valid, spouting apprent facts that arnt always relevant to the point and calling each other fanboys when they clearly have no access to a mirror...

    Being as its SOOO important to show your allegiance in these discussions (can there be anything more moronic?) I'll state that i have been a multiformat console gamer since the age of 6 (i am now 24), i have owned most major consoles, however, the current generation is the first generation where i tend to support one console over any others (the 360) as the software and achievment system appeals more to me.

    And with that i begin...Natal (it'll take a while before i start referring to it as Kinect i think) looks like an amazing piece of kit that can do so many different things for gaming, social experiences and just simply navigating the console. However, how a piece of kit looks and performs in reality are 2 completely different things, my experiences of owning a Wii and the original Killzone 2 trailer back in 2007(?) have taught me that.

    Move from what i've seen so far is just an updated Wii remote, though with major publications reporting the 1:1 movement replication its seems like a really good updated Wii Remote, so as long as there are some decent software being made for it it could be a great success.

    In conclusion however, i'm not buying into any of the hype just yet, Natal has the ability to be incredible and Move has the ability to be an extremely functional and well put together piece of kit, But for me the individual (which is the most important thing fanboys, not sales to the majority *roll eyes*) neither seems to add anything perticularly great to the way i play my games.

    I'll be keeping a very close eyes on them however of course...

  • Comment number 64.

    @Richard #62

    Your points RE PC gaming vs console gaming are all console will ever match a PC for games, and if it ever does it'll be out of date in a month. Consoles by the very nature of their fixed hardware and compatibility requirements are a lot more stagnant, and while graphics generally improve slightly over time as devs get more familiar with the systems, they are still limited in their scope for improvement. And while this is something that will put many off consoles, it is also something that draws many in...PC gaming isn't for everyone. Even *console* gaming isn't for everyone ergo the Wii's success :)

    As consoles can't just "scale up", they have to "scale out" and this is what breeds true innovation in things like Kinect (and the Wii, Guitar Hero etc). Rather than just faster processors and better graphics, a console has to do something different to stand out from the crowd as more and more realism just isn't an option.

    This is what Kinect's just trying to add "something" to console games to keep people interested as you can't keep them interested with improvements with graphics, sound, multi-player etc. If the technology does indeed work out then it might even come across to PC gaming, I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

  • Comment number 65.


    Seems you don't have anything to come back with, some simply used every fanboy's escape excuse...

    Let's not forget who took this off topic, you did, by claiming that Kinect is totally new and revolutionary, which is what Microsoft are trying to convince people is true, however anyone with ANY knowledge of PC or console gaming history will know it's nothing new at all.

  • Comment number 66.

    When Kinect comes out, if it's priced at £150 do you think many ppl will buy it? Like wise with Move, I can't remember the quoted price but it was a little cheaper it think.

    Did Sony ever have plans to do anything with the PS eye or was it mearly a web cam?

    I like my tech but I tend to wait a few month before buying new hardware/software as I feel the first to buy are guinea pigs.

  • Comment number 67.

    My points about PC gaming was only meant to show that I'm not a casual gamer but someone who take it seriously, Obviously no console can compete on a speed basis.
    Graphics or sound isn't innovation its just eye(or ear) candy, the most enjoyable games I've played are pre GPU and could probably be run on my mobile phone with some improvements over the originals.

    Gameplay is what I'm after and immersive worlds neither of which are in great supply on any system as the focus is on "innovation". The console shooters are no different to half-life style games with better graphics and a much worse plot/re playability.

    As someone who can play a guitar I hate it when people call Guitar hero's controller innovative, its just a controller in a different shape and nothing at all like playing a real instrument. its a gimmick to fool people in to spending money on a novelty controller with less buttons and only usable in a select few games.

    Natal is the only motion sensing controller that I see as innovative (despite being tried before) but cannot see how it will add to the gameplay in most titles.

    I feel I'm actually doing a really bad of explaining myself, what I mean to say is that this is a step backwards in some games making the well defined controls evaporate in favour of physical balance and grace, two things I have trouble with as a gamer. Secondly If this is the focus then the important element of plot will have less attention and a game without plot better have the best gameplay or its junk.

    not that flight sims are console fair but if your flying a plane then the most realistic control interface is a joystick not waving arms.
    For driving games while a wheel and peddles is fun I have a car that is more fun so I stick with a controller so I can play the game and not worry about my driving skill. Games are escapism and relaxation actually doing what the char on screen is supposed to do just makes me feel im wasting my time and might aswell go out and actually do said thing or a safe(ish) equivalent.

    oh and sometimes I do other things while gaming like eat my dinner or drink, if I then have to jump about dodging sniper fire I'm likely to give myself indigestion. After 6 hours I will be a sweaty mess not able to do much, not my idea of relaxing escapism more a fitness regime.

  • Comment number 68.

    #63 - thanks, I was trying to say that.

    Can't believe you like the 360 more than a ps3 tho....fanboy ;)

  • Comment number 69.

    @ MARKG

    Unlike some people i don't intend to knock down your opinions but your idea of revoltuion seems rather limited.

    You are correct, the eye toy and eye have already been released and were the brave first steps in home motion capture but as history has proved they are either very basic or in the extremes unplayable (i include microsoft with their vision camera in this)

    Natal claims (i am never going to say has incase its a big fat lie) to have 3D motion detection, multiple person detection, facial recognition, and voice recognition. Its waaaaaaaay ahead of anything the playstation eye, eye toy and vision camera can ever hope to acheive.

    And if you don't consider that a revolution then your cynicism by far outweighs even mine...(see my comment above on my opinions on both systems)

  • Comment number 70.

    @Mav #63

    "In conclusion however, i'm not buying into any of the hype just yet, Natal has the ability to be incredible ... But for me the individual (which is the most important thing fanboys, not sales to the majority *roll eyes*) neither seems to add anything perticularly great to the way i play my games."

    I agree with the potential, and I'm hoping that when the decent Kinect-enabled games come out it'll be one of those "how did I ever play games without it" moment. Much like when DVDs and LCD screens came out, or mobile phones. We don't really have a frame of reference yet as to how this is going to change games and unless game devs do something special it will probably fail.

    @mcgrit808 #66

    "When Kinect comes out, if it's priced at £150 do you think many ppl will buy it?"

    It's going to fly off the shelves. There are always hard-core console owners who don't mind early-adopting. Many will probably wait til Christmas though, as the price will drop and we'll know by then if it's any good.

    @Richard #67

    "Natal is the only motion sensing controller that I see as innovative (despite being tried before) but cannot see how it will add to the gameplay in most titles."

    Everyone is in the same boat right now *shrug* As I've said...this is either going to blow people away for just be another also-ran.

  • Comment number 71.

    The question is, will Kinect or Move encourage people who would otherwise by a Wii into buying an XBOX or PS3? I think the effect will be marginal. People buy consoles for the games, not for the associated technology. While Wii games remain cutesy and family orientated, these will be the machines that families buy for themselves. XBOX and PS3 are generally bought by gamers who want war games, advanced sports games and the like.

  • Comment number 72.

    ok for all you fan boys on both sides, as that annoying person stated about xbox having hdmi and 1080p so on so forth, no it didnt when it first came out, it was a basic hard drive dvd drive and thats pretty much it, as for the even caring about if it plays 1080p heres a few facts for EVERYONE, 1080p doesnt matter a toss IF you have a tv smaller than 40" and how many people have one of that size in there bed room where most ps3,s/xbox,s are found ?? not many people but a few yes and for those seldom few whom do have a tv of that size? most games dont run on 1080p anyways so does it really matter? no

    Next, the idiot saying "half of all xbox dont even have a hard drive" yea because MS never changed there xbox specs like sony did so many times... OH WAIT THEY DID it has only been over the passed year? i think that ms has offerd the 2 types of console arcade (no hard drive) and elite (hard drive) yes it was out before then the hd free BUT for 20 quid extra you could get the 20 gig xbox.... so im assuming that you are assuming that people thought the xbox looked better without the hd and procceded to throw it in the fishtank for decoration... thought not

    and also ps3 does not offer 99.9% of the service live does.. live has much more than psn AT THE MOMEMNT ie FB Twitter, Party Chat, Exclusive DLC, sky player and some other thing and before anyone says "OH BUT IT R HAF INTERNET EXPLORER" it doesnt im pretty sure it has opera not IE, yes internet access BUT thats what a pc/laptop is for not a gaming console so that shouldnt factor into your choice options when buying a console, unless of course you dont have a computer at home wich in this country most people do now...

    And finaly kinect looks awesome i will be buying it just so i can park my fat lazy butt on my bed and select what movie i want to watch and use my control pad as an oversized butt scratcher (no sarcasm) and as for Move, it is a copy of wii like it or not, even if it still does show some good prospects kinect still shows more in ways already stated, ie lean whole playing fps, checking side view while racing for apex and corners, and in football games as no controller is requierd to use it hence you can use the controller already provided unlike ps3s move

    p.s eyetoy sucked and im away back to playing uncharted 2... HAVE FUN FLAMERS

  • Comment number 73.

    As much as many of you guys hate it, you guys cannot deny that millions will buy Kinect, for these reasons

    1) Millions of teenage girls will love the dancing game. Ability to learn dancing with a virtual coach, that's a success

    2) Millions of small children. When you show a PS3, Wii and Kinect side by side, who wins? Of course small kids will choose the kinect for the ability to tickle tigers

    3) Company bosses. Play kinect golf using own golf club. (More TV sets will get broken though)

    4) Ping pong, volleyball etc.... Could any controller match kinect's experience? I would certainly love using own ping-pong bat to play with my friend online.

    5) Women from all over the world would love Kinect's fitness game.

    6) Facebook integration. (I'm not a facebooker)

    6) Geeks. What's cooler than using a full-sized toy lightsaber to play starwars ?

    7) Don't focus on motion alone, remember there's speech recognition which adds to gaming experience, and also educational games. You can't deny there's money to be made from educational sector

  • Comment number 74.

    I'm all for pushing and developing new tech and explore new ways to be entertained but for me the question of which one is best is going to be decided purely on how good the software is. It has to offer much more than what the Nintendo Wii can already do and I dont mean neat ideas but sustainable and innovative gameplay or applications and I really don't think we will see anything mind blowing on launch day - to secure longevity the makers will trickle the software and save the best stuff for the months ahead.

    The new tech offerings have the potential to take both consoles into exciting areas of gameplay but for me the Kinect takes it a little further. Perhaps not with games but with the voice and user recognition, and its ability to control the consoles operating systems. The 'Milo' software demo last year was impressive but this could be extended to being your home's tech butler - managing your missed telephone/video calls, home appliances, organising your days TV/music, meals, etc around your changing moods and dynamic lifestyle.

    At present however, all we have are motion controllers for games and on that basis once you've bought the PS3 camera, the two required motion controllers and then the software to make use of it, you've forked out well over £100. The same can be said for the XBOX 360's Kinect.

    That's not far off the price of a Wii which comes with some great addictive software, is a games console in it's own right and opens you up to Nintendo's exclusive games.

    So if you own a PS3, XBox 360 or both and are looking for a Wii experience why not buy the Wii? It has tons of games at reduced prices and by the time you're bored of that, it will be clearer which of the other tech is king and I bet the price will be cheaper or at least will come with bundled killer software by then as well.

  • Comment number 75.

    @Mark G
    "Microsoft's PS2 EyeToy rip-off named after a PS2 EyeToy game. You really couldn't make it up..."

    Err yes you can and you did, it's called Kinect not Kinetic.....wormball :-)

  • Comment number 76.

    Guys, check out my new 3D PacMan iPhone arcade game on I think you'll like it.


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