News of the World bugged Sun editor
I have learned that the News of the World was apparently eavesdropping on the phone messages of Rebekah Wade, who at the time was the editor of its sister paper, the Sun (she still is - although she will soon become chief executive of the Sun's parent, News International).
She was one of 75 individuals identified by police as having their phone messages monitored by the private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire - who was jailed in 2007 for phone hacking, together with Clive Goodman, the News of the World's royal reporter.
The police informed her that she was on Mulcaire's list of those whose mobile-phone voicemails were being tracked and was asked whether she wanted to press charges. She declined.
It's not unusual for newspapers to spy on each other, even newspapers within the same organisation.
The disclosure may be particularly embarrassing for Andy Coulson, who was then editor of the News of the World and is now the director of communications for the Conservative Party.
He denies that he knew that Mr Goodman was hacking into the mobile phones of celebrities, politicians and others.
Update, 10:45: For anyone running more-or-less any substantial news organisation, it'll be difficult to know whether to welcome or dread the Guardian's investigation into the use of allegedly improper techniques by News International to obtain private information about individuals.
Some will see it as an incentive for journalists to clean up the way they carry out investigations.
Others will fear that it will restrict the ability of journalists to uncover genuine wrongdoing, that legitimate investigations will become harder as a result of apparent misbehaviour by those hacks pursuing celebrity tittle-tattle.
But over-riding all other thought and emotions will be one terrifying question: "is my news organisation going to be seriously tainted by this?"
Because more-or-less every newspaper employed journalists whose specific skill was to obtain private phone records, or ex-directory telephone numbers or other confidential personal information.
And these specialist hacks in turn got hold of the valuable data through their relationships with private investigators.
A good deal of this trade in personal confidential information has already been exposed by Richard Thomas, who has just retired as information commissioner.
In a series of reports and in evidence to the House of Commons culture, media and sport committee, he made a series of disclosures about newspaper activities that he regarded as "prima facie" illegal.
Here's a statement from him to MPs that he gave in March 2007, which refers to the results of an investigation he carried out into the business relationship between the press and a firm of private investigators (the investigation was given the codename Operation Motorman):
"The first thing I would need to share is that the 3,000 or 4,000 transactions identified... came from a total of 13,000 transactions in this one operation alone. We were careful only to put forward those where there was some sort of hard evidence of the transaction being positively identified as involving a journalist for a newspaper".
And this is what he cited as the evidence of payments being made by journalists for the information:
"We did have, and we do have still, the statements, the bank statements, the invoices - some of these well-known proprietors were including information such as 'payment for confidential information', payment for 'blagging' [obtaining information by deception] in some cases - so there was what I might call hard 'prima facie' evidence."
But although successful prosecutions were brought against the detectives (who were given a conditional discharge), there were no charges brought against journalists - because Thomas was advised that, in the climate of the time, the courts would not wish to punish journalists, even if there were evidence of wrongdoing.
However the degree of detail obtained by him about this trade was startling.
He said the market price for obtaining the phone records of an individual was £750. Criminal records could be had for £500. The name of the owner of a car cost up to £200. And to break the barrier of secrecy of the ex-directory phone system cost up to £75 per number.
Where did the money end up? Well, a flow-chart produced by the office of the information commissioner shows the press employing private detectives who in turn deal with phone companies, call centres, the DVLA and what's described as "police source".
Also striking is Richard Thomas's list of the most enthusiastic customers of the particular detectives under investigation [pdf link].
The Daily Mail was listed as the top customer, with 952 transactions "positively indentified" (in the words of a report by the Information Commissioner's Office).
Then came the Sunday People, with 802, and the Daily Mirror with 681 trades.
The Mail on Sunday was in fourth spot with 266 deals. And the News of the World was one place below, with 182 transactions.
Even the Observer, sister paper of the Guardian, was a customer - with 103 transactions.
I would imagine none of those papers will be watching the current humiliation of the News of the World and its owner, News International, with much relish.
Update, 13:10: To state the obvious, my story says that the News of the World appears to have been eavesdropping on Rebekah Wade, editor of its sister paper, the Sun.
And - according to my sources - that is what she believes.
However, it has been brought to my attention, by a Tory spokesman and some commenters here, that on 29 November 2006 the Guardian reported that Mulcaire had intercepted her voicemail messages.
So the Conservatives are saying this is old news.
But the original Guardian story also says that no-one at the News of the World had a clue that there was eavesdropping of Ms Wade. There's an implication in that Guardian article that Mr Mulcaire may have been tracking the messages she received for someone else.
So, to repeat, what I'm saying is that News International is convinced Mr Mulcaire was operating for the News of the World - though I am not saying that the editor of the News of the World, Andy Coulson, knew this was going on.
Sorry if this is a bit complicated.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~05~RS~)
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Changed jobs to gossip writer, Robert? Hardly a business story, is it?
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Worst blog yet Robert.
Come on Writingsonthewall I am still fascinated by your web based central pricing system.
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Mr Preston seems to go off-job when there is a chance to bash the Tories ie Mandelson/Osbourne boat saga.
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A feeble attempt to shore up Nick Robinson's increasingly lonely looking position on this matter.
Is this really the biggest business story out there?
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Sorry, but how is this a business blog? At least make an effort not to look utterly biased in your blog, I thought this was the BBC. Very disappointing.
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How did you learn this Robert - was it by reading a newspaper article from 2007?
This is not so much old news as fossilized.
Without any effort other than by searching Google for Clive Goodman (which I am sure you have) you can find a Guardian article from the 26th January 2007 listing Rebekah Wade alongside a list of politicians (including David Miliband, Simon Hughes and David Blunket), sports stars (including Sol Campbell and Gordon Taylor) and media personalities.
Isn't the real story here about who is seeking to manipulate the media and why?
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Of course it is entirely possible that the editor of the News of the World at the time (a certain Mr Andy Coulson) did not know that his journalists were listening to the messages of the editor of their sister paper (amongst hundreds of others).
But he would have to be a useless editor who was clearly held in low regard by his staff. Could anyone so clearly incompetent be trusted with a major job by anyone ever again?
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I believe that this is an important story.
Not so much that newspaper hacks spy on each other, but that Andy Coulson is now Communications Director of the Conservative Party.
At a time when politicians and political parties are coming under scrutiny by the public, how can David Cameron be trusted if he continues to employ this man.
Not that I am suggesting that Mr. Coulson is using private investigators on behalf of the Conservative Party, but surely David Cameron can't take the risk.
All politicians now have to show themselves to be clean, honest and transparent to the electorate if they have a hope of attracting voters.
With this story looking as though it will run and run, the Conservative Party cannot take the risk
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Seems to me that perhaps this little story in the Guardian may be motivated by some prodding by friends in the Labour Party. From what one reads this is Gordon Brown's style. Not too much said publicly but behind the scenes lobbying and mischief making.
The constant comparison of Andy Coulson with Damien McBride is a total red herring. McBride was working for Gordon Brown & Labour when he was found to be deviating from the rules.
What we really need is an ELECTION to wipe the slate clean.
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how much does david cameron pay his lap dogs for chasing around the bbc blogs trying to rubbish all the blog stories - seeing how aggressive they are i'd say the money must be good!
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Are you softening us up by in preparating for the arrival of the new Business Editor?
One Nick Robinson, I believe according to the Daily Politics Show.
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Yes it is a business story, but a sick business, like the NHS has been Nat Sickness Service instead of a Nat Wellness Service.. (Stick to the point Dave) - Are we not describing multi-talented conduits (sewer pipes carry anything and everything until they block and cause a nasty flood) in this supply-led market for gossip and "market-sensitive" business information (whether accurate or not)? Long indeed are the lengths to which people (any of us) can allow themselves to be driven in the frenzied (stop-not-consider-the-wider-picture) rat run, if we don't realise that grace is free of charge, unconditional and on the house. And breathe in... and breathe out.... Start breathing more, brothers and sisters.
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This is surely a business story, who could believe that the head of a large business didn't know how his organisation was operating? If wrong doing went on a the scale is alleged the organisation and its parent org should get huge fines to stop the behaviour in future. Once this sort of thing is OK for celebs etc. it quickly becomes the norm for the general public, not a nice thought.
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Robert,
The way you have presented this story is NOT a business story...
unless...
You are implying that because the management of News Corp. did not know what was going on... then... as they (he!) are not in proper management control of their(his) media empire... the(his) monopoly media empire should be broken up!!!! (Or he is not a fit and proper person to be running the companies - just the same as was said about Robert M. before he went swimming!)
I know you would not dare to speak evil of Rupert M. in such a way....
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How ironic.
Not a lot of trust in "Fleet St" then?
Do I get the feeling that this is just the tip of the iceberg?
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I thought this was the business section, have I inadvertently stumbled in to Nick Robinon's politics blog.
This is old news, is there nothing happening in the business world?
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DISGUSTING ROBERT.
ENOUGH, I GIVE UP ON YOU.
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Hi again Robert
Thought it would just be me, but looking at the first 10 posts, I hope you haven't done a Ratner with this one.
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Robert, have enjoyed reading your blog for a long time but never felt the need to post a comment until now. This sort of post is totally out of context of the usual business topics you discuss. And taking a political stance on it is even worse. Please keep a focus on the business news, there are plenty of other reporters on this site to tackle this sort of news and I can happily ignore their blogs!
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what is RP commenting on this rubbish for?
sure there are more important things for him to blog about.
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okay the story is mainly off subject but I can't help thinking that there would be much critisism of this if he was linked to new labour and GB was relaxed about it all
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EuroSider - it may be an important story, but it's not a business one, is it? Politics or media, yes, but not business - unless of course there's some suggestion that NI Corp is going to tear itself apart through internicine warfare which impacts the wider industry...
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ok Robert, who planted these stories? OGC? Downing Street et all?
Surely this is a bit beneath your normal postings and demeans your stature.
Who needed pressure taking off them? And just before 'end-of-term'?
Mandelson? The PM? The Chancellor?
Methinks all three have a lot to answer for and are hiding an awful lot more in sheer desperation.
So has Barclays. Keep digging. Where did the dosh really end up and into whose pockets?
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please robert concentrate on the business news.How good/bad our economic forecasts have/will be etc etc , stick to that......i mean lets face who cares about News of the World anyway ???? do people actually read it ???
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Mr Peston, I know you are the son of a Labour Peer and take every opportunity to promote the Labour Party in common with many of your colleagues at the BBC.
However when we the reluctant license payers are paying your salary, could you please stick to commenting on economic and business issues.
Do your work for the Labour party in your own time!
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The info in the update is fascinating. Clearly the press have been repeatedly breaking the law. Given the papers involved it was not for reasons of public interest but in order to get tittle-tattle on celebrities. What we need is a privacy law which protects citizens from their intrusion whilst still allowing the press to expose wrong-doing. And in the meantime, stop buying those tawdry tabloids.
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I am glad you added your update. So it seems that NOTW is not the worst offender here. I hope that all the newspapers' editors involved will be called to give evidence.
Apart from that, no new evidence has emerged so far and your gossipy first entry only serves to lower my appreciation of your blog which has done more to uncover the disaster that Labour is presiding over and the complicity it has in the downfall of the economy in this country.
Stick to what you know best Robert.
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The global recession must be over then if this is the biggest business story of the day...
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Read for I have learnt " Mandleson has feed me this story and like a good person I am, because he feeds me all the stories about the Banks etc I am doing just what he wants"
This sort of jounalism stinks and just goes to show how biased the BBC has become - puppets of the Govt. Nick Robinson was almost licking his lips last night on BBC.
Its time there was an investigation in the current bias of certain BBC politcial reporters. They have got too close to the government. They no longer realise they are being led up the garden path by the biggest spinner of them all, Mandy and being made to look fools. The British public can see why can`t they. What on earth are Peston and Robinson going to do if Labour lose the next election?
Bad form BBC.
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what shall we write about today?
a list of hot topics in business TODAY...
+ Japanese deflation deepening
+ China accusation of Rio staff
+ Oil below $60
+ Ongoing UBS scandal with Swiss govt backing company over Uncle Sam
+ French industrial output
+ level of Chinese IPOs
+ Bovis Homes results
+ UK property co London & Stamford raising money to bargain hunt
+ John Lewis retail sales
+ rating agncy cut to BA's credit
+ Infineon capital raising
No. You write a non-business story about phone tapping. Stick to your mandate and let Nick do the politcs.
On second thoughts if you want to write a blog on discredited news organisations, what about a blog on BBC EXPENSES...........
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Most of us on these posts have been highly critical of the "establishment".
Of course most phone tapping is illegal, but the internet is "public domain", and almost anything goes.
Did you notice your computer behaving strangely just before the G20 summit?
(You can hear when your hard-drive is "active", even when you haven't asked it to do anything).
Unless we choose not to enter the "techno world", we are all under "scrutiny".
And if you think your computers' anti-virus or firewall can stop everything, think again.
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Did anyone see newsnight last night - oh how funny it was watching or those slimy editors turning up to a wedding and having NOTHING TO SAY.
Oh how I wet myself when Kelvin MacKenzie - in total seriousness - stated that the bugging affair was a 'Socialist conspiracy'.
Doesn't he realise that socialists don't conspire? Is the man getting paranoid? Only Capitalists conspire as they are in the minority.
Well, this is where the anti-capitalists stand up and point out that 'breaking the law in order to make money' is one step closer to true Capitalism. We have Madonna buying babies, the police (allegedly) selling information, journalists breaking the law - are there no limits to what the love of money can bring??
Isn't is great how our legal system covers up the crimes of the rich by allowing the victims to be paid off and kept silence. What a great and fair justice system that is. A bit sad if you're poor - because that means the press can do what they like - but hey ho, maybe they're all 'parasites of the state' - oh wait a minute, that's MP's.
With the lack of interest by the police - is this a sign that Murdoch has bought them too?
What a wonderful system - long live the Capitalist dream. Here's us all moaning about the Government, Gordon and Alistair all the time - when really we should have been moaining about the REAL man in charge - Rupert Murdoch - un-elected, un-accountable and un-wanted.
I don't hold much sympathy with the celebrities and politicans involved, but the defence of 'in the public interest' is a bit wooly at best. I think MP's expenses were - but the 'sexual antics' that John prescott may have got up to are certainly not something the public want to hear (or think about to be honest) - I feel queasy simply writing it!
I must stress (in order to get past moderation) - that these opinions above are that of the author (me) and are in no way reflective of the opinions of the BBC and that they should not be taken as 'truth'.
You see I am an individual and not a national tabloid - therefore I cannot simply say what I want and if anyone complains - pay them off in a civil suit to keep them quiet.
2 sets of laws in this country - and hasn't this year proven it.
Best year ever - who said the recession was depressing?
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One would have though after 'yachtgate' you would stick to your brief of business and the economy? This newspaper/media stuff seems quiet unrelated.
Let me see what links that and this?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Interesting that Labour are making a fuss about Andy Coulson and whether he knew what was going on.
Wasn't there something about a chap who worked for Crash Gordon - something about emails? -earlier this year.
Perhaps if AC is summoned to account to some MP committee perhaps GB should be as well - in the interest of impariality. BBC take note.
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"About this blog
I'm Robert Peston, the BBC's business editor. This blog is my take on the business stories and issues that matter."
Since this is neither a business story, nor does it matter much to anyone outside the media (particularly it would seem the BBC), why are you writing about it on your licence fee funded blog?
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easterross - You told Robert to "Do your work for the Labour party in your own time!".
I TOTALLY disagree - I think RP's reporting is as unbiased as anyone's (and notg just in the BBC!) In Wednesday's post, he noted the downsides of the Tories' proposal to split CoB and prudentional regulation of FS companies. I agree he probably comments more on Labour activity, but that's a consequence of the Labour party being in government. For all the announcements of the Tory party, they can (almost) say what they like as it makes no difference until they win actually win an election. If RP is still in place (RP - please don't follow that tabloid comedian Randall) then he'll be a discomfort the them as well, despite what the Daily Mail says.
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So any pretence has gone put of the window, the BBC is now officially the propoganda arm of the labour party
What's happened, have they been told an election is in the offing so its time to get the knife into the tories?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Funny how those paid Tory blog commenters are busy ignoring the strapline of this blog which reads:
This blog is my take on the business stories and issues that matter.
Does it matter that the head spin doctor for a potential future PM has spent his time allegedly breaking the law like this to snoop on people. It sure does!
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My point is this....
Us bloggers are using the BBC and other media sites to "take a pop at the establishment".
So we shouldn't be surprised if, via the internet, certain non-media organisations are taking a much closer look at us than we might like.
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Robert
Rubbish, Plain and simple as that. This has nothing to do with business at all. I often read your posts about bankers not doing thier jobs right!!, well maybe a look at yourself may be interesting!!!
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Just as with Yachtgate last year all of a sudden Robert Peston changes from a business reporter to a political one! Just as with that non-story, at the root of this is Labour's obsession with claiming a Tory scalp!!
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Message to detractors: How is this *NOT* a business story? Newspaper businesses are in deep trouble, they are desperately seeking some kind of government help, both here and in the USA, and yet they devote increasingly scarce resources to illegal acts. Should shareholders not be informed about this? Should business regulators not need to know this? And if these businesses rely on being able to claim some kind of fourth-estate moral imperative to make their business case (which they do - just look at any number of articles or blog entries by publishers or old-skool journalists, then Robert Peston has an absolute duty to demonstrate why they cannot be trsuted in this respect.
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Case in point: here they are trying to make a business-based moral case to the European commission (which is a major irony in itself for most newspapers): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/technology/internet/10copyright.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss
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Personally, I think this IS a real story and warrants proper reporting.
But then I would think that, wouldn't I? I learned that I was probably a target in a similar case a few years ago.
A private investigator was hired by a businessman to hack into the computers of several statutory agencies regulating his enterprise near where I live, and to tap the phones of certain individual troublemakers of which I was certainly one.
The PI was jailed, and in the course of the case his clients were identified and some were charged, including our businessman who served 6 months as a result. Another senior director in his company, with whom I'd always got on quite well, was also charged but was acquitted.
My question is: if THAT case was pursued, why not THIS new one? The only material difference I can see is that the PI's client is now a big mucky-muck in a major political party. Surely it can't be right to leave a member of the public with that impression?
I wonder how many of the 'anti' commenters here are journalists.
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Oh, and Hi Peej! Missing you on the PM blog these days...!
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Robert may have the title of Business Editor but that doesn't mean he has to write about business all the time. If he's got a good story - and this is one - then he should write about it.
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44. At 12:06pm on 10 Jul 2009, TimothyHolmes
Well if thats the case he could talk about football results as the teams playing are businesses and some of the people who watch have jobs!!!
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Hilarious, the comments!
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Mr Peston wonders wether this will be an embarrasment for Mr Coulson and the tory part
I'd love to know his thoughts on a certain Mr Mandelson being made Business Secretary given HIS past demenours
How many tiomes was he sacked/forced to resign?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Most if not all newspapers in the UK are in deep financial doo doo.
This is of course mainly due to Labour's dumbing down of the education system which has resulted in a generation that can't actually read and doesn't understand anything very much unless it's accompanied by a music video.
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The conservative chap mentioned has employed the usual deny, deny, deny and if all elese fails DENY! Much like that crowd who said they adhered to the rules when $tuffing their pockets with taxpayers do$h!
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We all seem to be "having a go" at Robert Peston because this is not strictly a business story.
But isn't this story indicative of the corruption that has swept through this country like a bad smell in the last 10 years?
Politicians? The City? Illegal? Fraudulent?
Has the UK ever been so corrupt in its' history?
Are we now no better than the worlds' worst "despots"?
And isn't it corruption that has brought us to this desperate economic state? Isn't everything now "negotiable" for personal gain.
And is the BOE now considering turning the £5 and £10 notes into coins, because it has run out of ink?
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Isn't most of this story just unsubstantiated rumour put about by stories in the Guardian? Since when did you start believing everything you read in the newspapers? And don't newspapers have even more incentive than usual to make stuff up if they are slagging off their competitors?
It would be nice if some of this goes to court, as then we will find out what the truth is. Of course if it doesn't, we'll have to draw our own conclusions.
I don't put any of these dirty tricks past the News of the World, but neither to I put making the whole lot up past the Guardian.
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#1 Truths33k3r
There isn't the time and space to write it all up here - however I'm sure the Government will come around to the idea in about 40 years time (if we're all still alive)
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Some of the press has been the in finger pointing game and often very keen "law and order". Will the tabloids be running a campaign for stiffer sentences for hacking voice-mail boxes - or getting rid of the quango known as the Press Complaints Commission and replacing it with normal police investigations, prosecutors and courts?
Robert - this story is worthy of the business side of the BBC as newspapers are businesses - to make profits for shareholders (just like mobile phone companies).
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Since we've apparently given up all attempts at keeping this as a busines story....
51. Well said.
In the old days politicians of all colours, once caught, trundled off and that was that. Compare and contrast today's lot to Profumo. After he was caught out he spent the next 30 years working quietly for the homeless in the East End. Could you - in your wildest imagination - EVER imagine Peter Mandelson doing that??????
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Come on people - lay off Robert,
This is the chance the non-murdock media have been waiting for.
On the one hand I am a bit disappointed that Robert isn't reporting on the next mad-cap plan coming out of the treaury to pretend they have fixed Capitalism - but lets face it, if the focus isn't brought by the BBC + others the whole thing will be brushed under the carpet.
I noticed it's not being covered by the Sun, NotW the London paper - or any other murdoch owned press.
Is that what we want? A media which does not report stories which are not in their own interests?
I know a lot of it is speculation - but it doesn't take a genius to work out that with the sums of money involved there are going to be temptations.
It would be so appalling if the 'hypocrite spotters' weren't being so hypocritical themselves.
What has the world come to? They all point their fingers but don't consider their own behaviour first.
Who wants to help me hack an editors mobile phone? I'm sure we would get some very interesting stories out of it....
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stevewo wrote:
isn't this story indicative of the corruption that has swept through this country like a bad smell in the last 10 years?
Politicians? The City? Illegal? Fraudulent?
Has the UK ever been so corrupt in its' history?
And isn't it corruption that has brought us to this desperate economic state? Isn't everything now "negotiable" for personal gain.
--------
The problem isn't limited to people at "the top", as your post suggests. It goes all the way to the bottom as well. many pensioners now moan about their pension schemes asking for certificate of existence certified by an independent third party else their pension will be suspended. Why do they ask for these? Because of (1) the amount of fraud and (2) the lengths people are prepared to go to to commit fraud. In the past many of these schemes asked for a simple fingerprint. However this stopped as schemes found that British citizens cut the finger off their loved ones and stuck it in a pickle jar so they could fraudulently continue to claim the pension long after the member's death!
Greed is a common human trait that seems to know no bounds when said trait is present.
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56. At 1:00pm on 10 Jul 2009, DisgustedOfMitcham2 wrote:
"Since when did you start believing everything you read in the newspapers?"
Disgusted - this is a very interesting question and one I have been pursuing for a while, but as I said in my letter to OFCOM - how do we know what we're reading or watching it truthful and what is not.
Is the news truthful?
Are documentaries truthful?
Are political broadcasts truthful?
Are drama documentaries truthful?
How do I know that the next thing I read or see is supposed to be truthful?
Are you saying we live in a world where 'everything is a lie'?
I would find it very unnerving if the human race now has to assume everything is false, whether it be on the radio, TV or in the papers.
The smearing of the truth in this manner is what will bring this world to a close.
Swine flu - is it real? are the deaths real? Are the numbers real? should I be worried? Did everyone have 'underlying health problems'?
Who do I believe?
The press? - No
The Government? - No
Can you see why it's so dangerous?
What happens if the Government need everyone to take precautions and nobody believes them?
Can you blame the Government for counter lying? ....and when the accused appears in court - why should we sentence him harder because he lied and pleaded not guilty.
What message does that send to the youth of today. Lying is OK? Are we happy that our children think it's acceptable to lie to us?
...as you can see I've been thinking about this one a lot...
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55,
I would add to that good list this question,
Is this country governable?
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#61 MrManj
Interesting thoughts:
"The problem isn't limited to people at "the top""
-- True, but aren't the people at the bottom taking their moral examples from the people at the top? (if my MP does it, it must be OK for me to do it)
Greed is a common human trait that seems to know no bounds when said trait is present.
-- I think it is a trait in humans but it only comes out when we're in a system of un-evenly distributed wealth.
Why are people greedy - "he's got it - so I want it too"
Babies aren't born greedy (in the same way they don't differentiate between race / sex) - they learn that from adults - just faster than you think.
Most peoples lives are spent trying to get ahead, in constant competition with each other to try and reduce the uncertainty of the future.
If you remove the uncertainty - you remove the need for greed and competition.
If I could guarantee your job for life and that what you get paid today you will get paid for the rest of your working life - would you feel the need to accumulate more and more wealth to protect yourself from disaster or periods where you might not be able to work?
How many people out there actually could retire today in a stable world (me for one). However the uncertainty keeps me at work because I simply don't know what's coming around the corner - whether it be unemployment or rapid inflation eroding the savings I would be living off.
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I just find it frustrating that mr peston seems to confirm my belief that we the public will never find out what exactly has been happening here.
Unless at least one of the major media organisation is whiter than white I just can't see any of them starting the kind of kamikaze mud slinging contest that would reveal the common practices & methods of investigative journos.
Which has a kind of irony about it because what would truly be in the public interest would be for us to know firstly exactly what lengths journalists go to get their information & what kind of ethical framework they operate within.
and secondly and most importantly, why did the police not investigate further once they knew the scale of the attempted & actual phone hacking at NotW.
Because at this moment it seems that the police, the judiciary & the CPS are all vulverable to accusations of giving favourable treatment to the NotW
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Re 61 MrManj
"Greed is a common human trait".
Can't argue there.
Very few of us are angels, and none of us are perfect.
Perhaps it's the scale of corruption between the poor and the rich which is so striking.
But we should not expect any corruption from those at the top in politics or finance, who are already staggering well-paid.
And the words "angels" and "Fleet Street" never did go together.
Journalists would not be able to do their job properly if they were all saints.
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63. At 2:09pm on 10 Jul 2009, JavaMan1984 wrote:
"Is this country governable?"
...I would also add - "what type of person is interested in Governing such a corrupt cesspool of vermin? - would they be a truthful and honest person? or would a truthful person struggle to cope with the constant web of lies sorrouding them?"
Maybe (only maybe) - we get what we deserve.
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Good work Robert and true to your blog header:
"I'm Robert Peston, the BBC's business editor. This blog is my take on the business stories and issues that matter."
This is an issue that matters and the more light shed on it the more we'll know the truth.
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WritingOTW
-- I think it is a trait in humans but it only comes out when we're in a system of un-evenly distributed wealth. Why are people greedy - "he's got it - so I want it too"
- - - -
I can't agree with this point i'm afriad. Look how well off our policticians, bankers and sports stars are. They have enough money to last them many lifetimes over. But they still want more. Footballers on £90,000 a week will still leave a club if they think they can get more elsewhere. i think when this trait is found in someone nothing will satisfy them
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I have no regard for ex-editors of rags and would question the judgement of those who employ them.
I'd also like to see the Murdoch empire broken up, but this story popping up on your business blog reinforces my suspicion that there was a brief from HQ for journalists across the Guardian and the BBC to run with it, for obvious motives.
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Robert, if you want to blog about the UK press and their activities from a business perspective you might want to investigate the UK tax status of the holding companies that own our national press and how much (or more accurately how little) they pay in UK taxes.
I'm sure you would find it enlightning in view of the Government's attempts to crack down on tax havens and tax avoidance measures.
Private Eye have been running with this for months.
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Since this log seems to serve no other purpose.......
"Excellent points - and if there are any BA workers out there considering whether they should step in and work for nothing - consider this:
If you work unpaid for a period of time and your company goes bust, or gets taken over (and don't think BA is too big to fail) - then you will never receive that money when your company goes into receivership.
You will loose your job, and also be worse off financially."
If there are any BA workers out there reading this then please speak to an employment professional about your situation. ACAS would be a good starting point and is a free service. There is a scheme called the state Redundancy Payments Service which covers unpaid salary and pension contribtuions (both employer and employee contributions) in the event of an insolvency. My understanding is that the scheme will cover up to 12 months of missing pay and contribtuions. It is highly unlikely anyone would be asked to work without pay for that long!
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38. At 11:47am on 10 Jul 2009, openside50 wrote:
So any pretence has gone put of the window, the BBC is now officially the propoganda arm of the labour party
What's happened, have they been told an election is in the offing so its time to get the knife into the tories?
---------------
I honestly don't think the Tories are the story here. Obviously Coulson is tory connection - but his possible past behaviour( and lets remember he's innocent until proven otherwise) doesn't reflect on them as a political party - it maybe says a little bit about Camerons judgement & ethics as an individual, but only assuming he knew about the current allegations, but he's certainly not the fisrt to recruit a spin doctor from the tabloids.
The real story is that certain elements of the British establishment seem to have conspired not to fully pursue allegations against an organisation which just happens to be part of one of the worlds most powerful media conglomorates.
That is what needs clearing up, because as it stands it implies that some organisations are above the law, meaning that we live in a two tier society - not the democracy we thought.
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...just a little business news for you....
General Motors (GM) says it has emerged from bankruptcy protection after creating a "new GM" made up of the carmaker's best assets.
New GM? - is this real, or is this just fantasy.....
GM chief executive Fritz Henderson said it was the beginning of a "new era".
- Man called 'Fritz' hailing a 'new era' - mmmmmmmm......
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#71 MrManj.
"I can't agree with this point i'm afriad. Look how well off our policticians, bankers and sports stars are. They have enough money to last them many lifetimes over. But they still want more. Footballers on 90,000 a week will still leave a club if they think they can get more elsewhere. i think when this trait is found in someone nothing will satisfy them"
Whilst I do agree to a point, let me put to you this theory for each type of person listed.
Footballers - Are scared of the uncertainty after football, often scared into "you don't want to be the next George best" by unscrupilous agents (who also benefit from the high wages). Add to this the uncertainty about injuries and forced retirement at 35(ish) and the damage it does to your body (terrible knee problems). I bet most footballers are content with what they have, but their agents stress the uncertainty and create the fear needed to promote the greed.
Bankers - Can't defend them really, other than perhaps they realise the scale of rising costs / inflation and therefore know better than we do what is 'really required for a comfortable retirement'.
Politicans - Live in the fear that "your next election could be your last", If you're elected you cannot plan beyond the next parliment - that's why they go for everything they can while they have the opportunity (like the expenses).
The way I see it we all need over a million in our pension pots before we retire after 2030. Inflation will ensure that will probably keep us barely alive until it's time to die.
That's why I'm still working, and I suspect it's why a lot of you are still working.
If I knew that X would be enough to retire on (Guaranteed - no messing) - like an annuity that actually works! Then I would work hard until X and spend the rest of my life doing socially useful things which I would find more rewarding than doing paid work.
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64. At 2:18pm on 10 Jul 2009, writingsonthewall wrote:
If I could guarantee your job for life and that what you get paid today you will get paid for the rest of your working life - would you feel the need to accumulate more and more wealth to protect yourself from disaster or periods where you might not be able to work?
If everyone was paid what they were paid now for the rest of their lives how would someone on £15k improve themselves? What would stop a £125k city boy from slacking? Where are the consequences of our actions? Who would decide who got what job and and what salary?
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"Because more-or-less every newspaper employed journalists whose specific skill was to obtain private phone records, or ex-directory telephone numbers or other confidential personal information."
Really ?!
So the journalists, the mdia, their owners, like politicians and businessmen/women are always trying to play the man while pretending to the ball?
Could all this just a revenge on the media by the not-so-honourable politicians?
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WritingOTW
"If I knew that X would be enough to retire on (Guaranteed - no messing) - like an annuity that actually works! Then I would work hard until X and spend the rest of my life doing socially useful things which I would find more rewarding than doing paid work."
I agree that some of the professions highlighted are uncertain. then again you could argue who has job security these days?
From personal experience - and i am quite young at 31 years of age - even people i know who have already reached X are not content. this isn't a general rule of course. some i know are very happy at getting to X. but a few will always want more if they can get away with it.
Take the Rolling stones as an example. They reached X years ago. Yhey can also be described as being in their later years. however they still use every trick in the book to avoid paying more than 1 per cent in tax.
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how wide spread is this spy story to be have those involved bugged banks, big businesses etc and if so the story should be how safe are we the public in todays media obsessed world.
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You say that there is no evidence that Coulson knew anything however keep mentioning his name presumably to make some mud stick?
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#77
I'd like to keep on working but the Carbon Taliban seem intent on killing off the UK oil and gas industry.
The latest proposal to come out of the Dept for Industrial Sacrifice in the name of Global Warming is a tax levy on heating oil... I'm beginning to truly hate these people.
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Why are so many of the entries here sceptical?
I find this story horrific.
The press, have been breaking the law in such a way that the acts are little different from someone breaking into your home and having a rummage around. Ever had that happen and felt your skin crawl for months afterwards, lived in the fear of it happening again, losing all sense of security?
And why have they been breaking the law? To gather evidence that an important British figure has been handing over State secrets to a foreign power or competing business?
No, to gather plain old boring gossip. Here follows the second crime. The gossip on the silly details of an individual's life is then peddled as news. What we now have on our newsstands make me think these newspapers and their struggle to survive, sinking so low, are no better than some well-known failed national States, grasping at straws, losing all moral authority as they seek to justify their actions to public and victims alike.
I'll stick with the serious journalists such as Peston and Goldacre; the people who actually use their brain cells to provide the news and information we all deserve.
And in the mean time, I hope to see every alleged victim of these crimes making their way to court with their lawyers, forcing the police, the CPS and the courts to do their jobs, and do them properly.
One last thought: Why is hacking a phone as easy as leaving a government data stick on the tube, Mr Mobile Telephone Company?
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Fascinating to see the red-top media literally disappearing up it's own backside. There are a couple of interesting angles here:
The politicians will take great delight in blowing this up as much as they can. REVENGE!
The police have undoubtedly caught some pretty nasty people as a direct result of the NoW undercover work, and is their reluctance to reopen the files and prosecute related to this?
If you intercepted and opened someone's post, would the police turn a blind eye in the same way?
Is the Labour party going to keep the pressure on until Murdoch agrees to back them again?
Does any of this really have anything to do with business?
Does anyone really care anymore?
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What does this say about the BBC? I always remember asking an Afro-Caribbean (he was African) mini-cab driver in San Francisco (Oct 2001) why he was listening to the BBC World service on his car radio.
He replied that it broadcast the truth, impartial, the real news and it could be trusted. I wonder if he still thinks the same. I'm embarrassed and saddened, I grew up admiring the BBC.
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Robert, please do not write blogs which may cause any embarassment to the Tory party. Can't you commentate on the Test Match or Russia to avoid this unacceptable activity.
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75. hits the nail on the head & outlines the real story behind this story:
"The real story is that certain elements of the British establishment seem to have conspired not to fully pursue allegations against an organisation which just happens to be part of one of the worlds most powerful media conglomorates.
That is what needs clearing up, because as it stands it implies that some organisations are above the law, meaning that we live in a two tier society - not the democracy we thought."
I believe the story was originally brought into the public domain to smear Coulson and his Tory connections.
However the real story is the fact that the police, Government and others believe there is nothing worth re-opening and investigating when clearly there is i.e. it's being swept under the carpet.
I hope one of the rich people targeted will refuse to be paid off and make a fuss about their treatment.
Do you think if a local paper acted in this same manner would be let off so lightly?
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In of itself, Coulson bugging Wade is no doubt one of two reciprocal actions. If their shareholders don't mind, then it's just a game of tennis really.......
What is at issue here is what the media think is normal and acceptable.
Now I am categorically of the position that my thoughts on sport do NOT represent the national interest, hence if I draw up a spreadsheet on my opinions on British Athletics which is communicated with no-one, then anyone in the outside world who bugs my PC to nick it is a criminal, a burglar. Just because they aren't breaking and entering a physical place, there's no difference. And if anyone is selling newspapers stuff they stole from my PC, then they are handling stolen goods and as we read on millions of occasions, the Press know full well that that is a criminal act.
So: there is going to need to be a contract between media titles and their 'suppliers', which states that person has not stolen such information and that they will complete an audit trail of how they assembled their information. They don't need to name names, but they need absolute rigour of audit trails as to where that information came from.
We are not going to smack little boys bottom for this sort of actions, we are going to beat them. Mr John MacArthur, who is the CEO of an AIM-listed company will be happy to explain how he knows what is on my PC. He is not a police officer and he is NOT entitled to know what I put on my PC. The FSA can question him about this and numerous other actions and I expect him to lose his right to be the Director of a plc. If any politician thinks that they can steal things I do not share, then they are in contempt of Parliament and they resign tomorrow. I share a great deal for free and if the response of that is to steal the rest, then politics is dead. And if politicians can't see that, then god help this country.
All editors are going to draw up an absolute code of conduct for their journalists and they are NOT going to print stories where there are doubts about stolen information.
There is going to be a £50m bond lodged with the PCC for all national titles and a £10m bond for regional ones which will be awarded to those whose rights are intruded upon and the bond will be topped up each time money is paid out. Media titles will be audited not in accounting terms but in journalistic terms and the costs of doing this will be borne by media titles.
And if that means that profitable but arrogant bullying organisations become less profitable but more humane, you know what we will call this, don't you?
Acceptable collateral damage.
Now if those who are bugging me thought about chatting with me rather than stalking me, they will find that I am approachable, respectful and engaging company.............
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Excellent blog; shows exactly why we need the BBC. For although the private media may say we don't need a state-owner broadcaster and that they can police the politicians, who else is there to police the private media?
P.S. To various commentators - since when was talking about one of the largest news companies in the world not considered a business story?
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#78 Truths33k3r
Unfortunately it's not possible to answer all your questions fully in the space here, so my answers will be brief.
If everyone was paid what they were paid now for the rest of their lives how would someone on 15k improve themselves?
- Your assumption is that 'improving yourself' constitutes getting paid more money? This is a reflection on your ideals rather than a reflection on how someone improves themselves. If a mother gives birth to 4 children and all grow up to be outstanding citizens (Doctors, Artists, President etc) - even though she has not been paid - has she not improved society and her own standing within it? I think it's already been established (by the lack of objection) that wages in this country are not tied to competence, or even 'use to society' (as by all accounts the best paid in teh country have just screwed up big time - take you pick, politicans, bankers, MPC etc.) and the whole country is questioning their value as we speak.
What would stop a 125k city boy from slacking?
- What stops them slacking now? Have you ever been to the city on a friday afternoon? want to see 125k city boys slacking - you can find hundreds. The threat of unemployment only affects the low paid. The well paid simply see unemployment as a 'holiday' or a 'career break' - such is the difference between those two worlds. Don't be fooled by people who work in the city talking about 'how hard they work' - some analyst was complaining about this very thing about 2 weeks ago because she 'did an 11 hour day'. I asked her if she had ever tried putting up a sheep fence in the welsh hills in the freezing cold and pouring rain for 11 hours a day (which happens to be something I have done before) and this put it into perspective for her. Don't forget things have changed in the city - but the wage structure hasn't. Once upon a time there were good mathematicians here, but no longer as computers do it all for them. I know a lot of people think this business 'reads the market' but several studies have shown that monkeys and 5 year old's can manage a portfolio just as well as a very expensive fund manager.
Where are the consequences of our actions?
- I'm not sure I understand this in this context. If it's a general question then I can't answer what Philosophers have been trying to for centuries.
Who would decide who got what job and and what salary?
- Society would. It can be based on 'social use or good', based on 'productiveness' or any criteria society deems acceptable. What won't happen is what is happening now where the well paid are generally the 'offspring of the well paid' - meaning that the 'american dream' where everyone has a chance is non-existent. I have many ideas on how society could select the wage structure of the country - I have to admit there would be some losers and deserved winners, but the losers would generally be those who get paid a lot for doing next to nothing and the winners would be those who are currently undervalued by the current system.
If you think about it - wage structure is reflective of the failure of the market. We pay a nurse less than a banker, generally because the banker appears to 'generate money' and seems to be more useful. However if you have had a car accident and I bring a banker along, you wouldn't be too impressed. This is the inability of markets to be able to handle scarcity - unless it's actually known at the time - it cannot handle future scarcity (as it doesn't with the Oil / natural resource consumption).
What a banker (generalisation) does is takes advantage of the wealth he / she manages - to create the scarcity and therefore a profit. If a nurse turned up to an accident to save a dying man she could 'name her price' - but Nurses don't engineer scarcity.
...and that's your lot for today - see you next week
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When one organisation that bugs
Bugs another organisation that bugs
And both listen into individuals with bugs
Who is the real and worst bug!
Well it is the beginning of the silly season.
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So it turns out RP is a puppet for the Gordon Brown propoganda agenda. Very dissapointing from a license fee based news provider
It seems his arrogance has either got the better of him (that they come to him with stories beacuse they 'like' him) or he is fully aware.
Do not know which is worse
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Is it not a fact that under the Wireless Telecommunications Act,it is illegal to receive any wireless transmission for which one does not hold a licence? Therefore, it matters not whether the victim makes a complaint or not, the law has been broken and the offenders should be prosecuted.
Andy Coulson claims ignorance of the offences, but this argument doesn't seem to apply when a government minister claims not to be responsible for the actions of a junior! Duel standards, perhaps ?
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82. At 3:39pm on 10 Jul 2009, MrManj wrote:
"I agree that some of the professions highlighted are uncertain. then again you could argue who has job security these days?"
-- Absolutely correct, and that is the issue. Uncertainty forces non-greedy people to amass more and more to insure themselves against the unknown. The boom and bust of the Economy is one unknown that is man made and could be controlled.
From personal experience - and i am quite young at 31 years of age - even people i know who have already reached X are not content. this isn't a general rule of course. some i know are very happy at getting to X. but a few will always want more if they can get away with it.
--- of course - there will always be exceptions, but I see your friends as simply following what appears to be 'socially acceptable' in today's society (wanting more if you can get away with it) - but I bet they still have limits. Do they con old ladies - even if they can get away with it? I guess not, because you certainly wouldn't be their friend if they did.
Take the Rolling stones as an example. They reached X years ago. Yhey can also be described as being in their later years. however they still use every trick in the book to avoid paying more than 1 per cent in tax.
-- Ah the Stones - well I said there would always be exceptions!
I couldn't answer for them, but I would propose they are motivated by 2 things
1 - They love to tour, sing and play - why else would they still be doing it when they surely have enough to retire on. You know from their faces they enjoy it - and would possibly do it for free if they felt they could.
2 - I suspect their tax avoidance may be two fingers up to the state. Remember the stones are just like us - when will I reach X, what is X and when will it be enough....not sure? - I'd better keep going and earning as much as I can then...
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#80 Puzzling
"Could all this just a revenge on the media by the not-so-honourable politicians?"
Undoubtedly - a fight between the snakes and the rats - who will win?
BRING ME A MONGOOSE AND A TIGER AND WE'LL SEE WHO IS TOUGHEST.
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86. At 4:01pm on 10 Jul 2009, copperDolomite
Some excellent points made - and some serious questions that need asking / answering
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78 truthseeker(apologies for the misspelling).
Think you should stop wasting your time challenging 'writingsonthewall', haven't you noticed when he's been stumped his stock answer is:
Your post has far too many (insert appropriate variable) for me to answer that, I am right and you are wrong(not as blatant as that but you get the message).
You got him earlier, post 57 I think, and he came back with the above.
Hilarious.
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writingsonthewall, this isn't anything personal, but as you advised yesterday you work in Fund Management.
The volume and timing of your posts indicate you don't actually do much work in Fund Management.
That might explain your lack of understanding of Economics in general and Fund Management yesterday.
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Its interesting that for the last two years Cameron and co have been playing the man not the ball, an endless stream of childish personal attacks on Gordon Brown, shameless Tory MP's getting up at PMQ's and making juvenile comments about "Brown throwing stationary about" ho ho, for months on end they avoid asking questions of substance are very quick to jump on any mud slinging story which lets face it the MP's expenses scandal was in the main a politically motivated mud slinging exercise by the Tory press to damage Labour, yet the minute, and I mean the minute they are put under any scrutiny whatsoever, be it the Shadow Shadow Chancellor appearing to solicit illegal donations, Cameron telling the most vulnerable people of Glasgow to get off their lazy backsides, Boris Johnson the part time mayor of London being exposed for taking credit for Ken's work and using most of his time settling old scores, the minute anyone puts them under scrutiny they call foul.
Good blog and about time this shower were exposed for the untrustworthy bunch they are.
Andrew Neil called it right, the Torys are indeed a very mediocre opposition.
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Normally I have a lot of time for Robert Peston, but, like others posting comments, feel he's outside his remit on this one.
There are plenty of other journalists reporting this story - please, Robert, stop spending my licence fee money on this indulgence.
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Right, so a bunch of journos have all had a few quiet calls to each other and said "how can we defuse this story, do what you can lads", put somehting in print to help, as we all need these secret sources...
Its the only explanation I can think of for this nonesense appearing on a business blog.
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Well done RP, good blog. Of course it is about business, BBC haters, the empire of one of the most poweful busineesmen in the world. As for your supposed bias, some of the comments in this section are so off the wall they might end up on the 'spEak You're bRaines' website, a collection of the most ridiculous comments made on the BBC website. Worth a visit.
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I was quick to point out the age of the initial revelation, so to balance that: nice updates Robert.
Both ask valid questions of the spinning of the story by the press and political parties, and the implications for other newsrooms. Both bring new material to the discussion.
Clearly this isn't only a NoTW issue. The timeline also asks a serious question: if this is such a major issue (as suggested by quite a few senior politicians today) why has the government been ignoring it and has taken no action since 2007?
How uncomfortable should the editors of papers such as the Daily Mail and Observer be?
What about other PR folk in the world of politics - surely Andy Coulson is not the only journalist from implicated newsrooms that period to have made the journey from poacher to gamekeeper?
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apart from underlining the now rampant bias by the BBC, why is the business editor and the political editor both wasting time with this story when it is neither a business nor political story?
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It really is staggering to read this tripe in a Business blog. Anyway, at the time the bugging took place, was not the News International Empire arm in arm with NuLab?
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#93
Society would decide - who is this mystical society that can magically decide salaries based on social good. Elected Government? Hardly do a great job with money and decisions at the moment.
Yes there would be few big losers in this crusade of jealousy but very few winners because the money taken from the top of the pyramid spreads thin at the bottom.
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Ref 107: Some very good points, I bet the "sources" will have plenty of dirt to dish on other papers and are probably in direct contact with their pay masters now to make sure the mud is spread evenly and thinly.
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110 Spike1606 I'm with you.
As well as 'this mystical society' as you put it, 'writingsonthewall' is also promoting Schools and Hospitals that are built for free.
Love his posts for the entertainment value, but he's off with the fairies I'm afraid.
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The government must be comparing notes to determine if others, not just the government, should be listening to our phone conversations, reading our e-mails and videoing our every move.
What was that Magna Carta thing all about anyway? Resides in a museum, I think.
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This blog is bazaar. RP can talk about company issues at M&S (a corporate governance issue) and Rover (critical of the government) and not a word but as soon as there is a slight suggestion that someone who works for the Tory's is implicated a torrent of abuse and stupid suggestions of political bias. A major business breaking the law is a corporate governance issue, i.e. a business issue. I have no idea if this is orchestrated or just people randomly missing the point.
I have never voted labour and certainly do not plan to do so at the next election. But I was hoping that with the expenses scandal politicians would be prepared to take critical comment and be open. The hysterical responses here suggest that is not likely to be the case. Please stick to the point. Any person not following the rules should be held to account. To say they can only be written about if they are red or blue misses the point. I want them all clean or the BBC to expose them irrespective of political colour.
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It's a well-known, organised strategy to flood a blog with nonsense to make it appear as though the public are pro-this or pro-that. Pesto's blog doesn't normally have so many comments that appear to miss the point...
Since when were organisations who break the law, criminal law permitted to make financial deals to their victims and then have the documents sealed. Just a small point raised on BBC 4's Any Questions, by claire Short I think it was.
So, or legal system now behaves as though rich businesses are different when it comes to criminal acts.
Why are those subcontracted by the press (the investigators) not subject to the same standards of journalism, or at the very least the material (and sources) subjected to the same standards. Doh, silly me! If they were, there would be no sub-contracting, would there!
Allegations of rimes have been made. They therefore should be investigated by the appropriate organisation and that is the police.
How far is this away, in terms of allegations of criminality and abuse of power, from the activities that brought Nixon down?
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A man who was I/C of the "Biggest circulation Sunday paper" in the world as I think it used to claim, part of one of the worlds biggest media BUSINESSES, who now works for the man who will possibly attempt to run this country (The man who does that now is apparently completely and solely to blame for the destruction of all business in this country), the actual acts described would, if widespread make insider trading small beer and the Cameron is God, Brown is Satan crowd scream for Bobby Peston's head on the grounds that its not a "Numbers" blog.
Haven't you got leaflets to post? Go splutter in the Golf club bar.
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I'll have to be quick... thought that 119 made the best point....
It's a business story surely when a major company faces the possibility of extraordinary items damaging it's free cashflow...if as reported one person has received £700,000 out of court, and most of the others bugged are celebrities--then a class action would be well funded and even if not all the alleged 3,000 involved get £700,000 it's still a lot of money to find..
Then there's the business aspect in which Google/Ebay/YouTube AND the BBC are eating the lunches of all newspapers...so News Corp have an interest in seeing the BBC give licence money away to buy off pressure and the BBC have an interest in seeing newspapers discredited.
All that is everyday business stuff....
(I don't believe either or any side has ops rooms to direct attacks against the other...just that these aspects DO exist within the general soup of motivations...)
In that general soup there is also a point that most Private Investigators are ex-police and their value often resides not in any competitive advantage or special forensic abilities but in their old pals and ..... that the individual worms are not really clearly identified or distinguished may be sufficient to make one decide NOT to open it in one's nice, tidy living room.
But copperDolomite's point is the main one that shocks of course ...somehow it seems that in many areas there has been a complete collapse in any sense of moral responsibility in itself and it's replacement by a quasi-morality based on cash.
That Nemesis may arrive in this case on the wings of civil litigation FOR cash 'compensation' and not through the due process of any criminal law is in keeping with the tenor of all things these days.... Swindling financiers, greed stricken bankers, expense fiddling politicians, just daftly paid footballers...
I am not religious (to be completely precise I am an atheist) but the slow erosion of morality and ethics since the removal of God from society has now ended up with the removal of the whole system of 'outside authentication' of right and wrong, and it's replacement by what we have now...a kind of 'self cert' Ninja morality in which anything is right and proper as long as YOU tell YOURSELF it is so.
From Dodgy dossiers through dodgy risk taking to dodgy expenses claims and dodgy journalistic practices it's all a gradient where the first little transgression leads on and on until everyone's doing it, nobody's to blame and you'd be a fool not to....
--------------NOT that I am advocating a return to Christian values as such...or any other sort of Religious fundamentalism as a basis for a new ethical system... but at least we should perhaps stop thinking that the ethical system WE do live by, or at least the one characteristic of our society; is all that great---- and start working out something better...
Apologies for muddling Business, Cash, power, responsibility and ethics let alone morality--- especially as I know it's pointless and invariably goes nowhere....
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...and we should care about this because?...
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I think this country is wonderfull, try driving in romania and then on our roads,good old brown what would we do without him!!!! brownwatch 324 days.
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#122 you old sceptic you, we should care about this because......hmmm..because.....
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There is definitely a business angle to the story. However, the blog post does not really touch upon the business side and the economics. Instead it leans toward the gossip, legal and political. The cost of snooping at say £500 average for 1000 snoops, is merely £500000. The Dail Mail (at 952 snoops) sells 2.3 million copies a day @ 45 pence per copy, so this is less than half a day's turnover - hardly bank-breaking.
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A chance to hit the Tories and it's all hands to the pumps.
Poor story, poor motivation.
Still if anybody was in doubt at Cameron's Blair like tendencies this should cure them.
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Poster Number One - it is a "funny business" story though isn't it?
Who cares who hacked whom - from three years ago? Talk about warming up a stone cold story and serving it up as fresh meat? The Guardian ought to be ashamed and look at all the celebs almost feeling insulted if they were not targetted by someone. They want our valuable police work time wasted finding out if the mobiles of people we have never heard of were hacked?
And as for Rebekah Wade? We should be concerned - having watched stock footage of her and Andrew Coulson. The phrase birds of a feather comes to mind - allegedly - and I am talking - again allegedly - media vultures.
Sorry if this is a bit complicated = sorry - Cad the Pacifist - limits bio
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Good article tbh. Funny how so many Tories seem to find it worthy of criticism, whereas we know full well, if the story was about Brown, even if it was TEN years old they would be working themselves up into a self righteous lather.....
The importance of the issue is, is that on the one hand, did the Police handle things correctly, on the other is a senior advisor to our future PM, fit for purpose? If the Police as seems likely did erm, 'botch' the investigation that has real political implications for post May 2010, and Coulson is either incompetent ('I didn't know!') or involved in activities that again don't bode well for the future. The answer in both cases is, whatever happens now, probably no, so why is it 'irrelevant'?!
As for the Newspapers, it's no surprise that are prepared top pay for muck raking, in particular Pro Tory muck raking, but it could have severe implications if certain Newspapers are seen to have 'gone over the top', both for the industry and again for what happens after May 2010.
No-one, trusts the current govt, with good reason, so it's a poor look out if even before they are elected the Conservative party is seen to be up to their old tricks. This time however, we have a much more sceptical electorate, and I hope as such, we will not be lumbered with them for another 17 years of dreary excuses, defence by attack on their opponents (the unions - and anyone else who stands up to them) and policies that would be an embarrassment to even the most deluded right wing US administration.
If muck raking and splashing out a fortune on it, with the potential for a drop in sales if the whole mess gets bigger isn't business news, well, what is?
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To all the posters accusing the Con Central Office of overloading this blog for political gain, you have to look at a couple of points to see why you might think this, but any reasonable neutral would have had the same view as the early posters.
1 The original post, before any updates, had no real detail from a business point of view and the impact to the businesses concerned.
2 It focused on AC and his relationship with DC. Businesss related, on it's own not really.
3 RP's known relationship to the Labour Party.
With these three points as context, it did look like this story should have been in the political and not the business blog. And therefore it's intention was to favour the Govt and attack the opposition. With the updates included the business angle is more apparent.
Why didn't the original blog include the updates? If they were not available at the time, the blog should not have been posted in it's original form if a question of bias were not to be raised. Or were these hastily added once it was realised how biased the post looked? The original post on it's own would have been a good benchmark for comparing other stories, and wondering where the opinion is really coming from?
I have to say that my view of RPs stories, is not overly positive. They can be rather sensationalist, rarely completely well balanced, this is more obvious if you have a reasonable understanding of the subject matter.
Now as RP is no fool, and a good journalist, this leads me to think that RP knows what he is doing when writing stories that may not be completely balanced. My conclusion is there is an intention to sway readers views in favour of one particular interested party(intentionly lowercase).
But hey I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first or last time.
Better stop posting before someone starts listening to my voicemails. They won't find much interesting stuff, apart from messages from the Mrs enquiring as to why I am still in the Pub.
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This story is important because it hints at the overthrow of the legal process. Evidence is obtained that crimes are committed but prosecutions are forestsalled because "the courts would not wish to punish journalists even if there is evidence of wrongdoing."
Similar logic was applied in the aborted investigation of allged Bae bribe paying to the freedom loving Saudi´s. Almost certainly the same kind of logic is at work with regard to the activities of certain members of the financial community.
If it is no longer considered that all are equal in the eyes of the law then you are on a fast road to nowhere. These kind of stories just soften up the population for further suspensions or abandonment of the rule of law.
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I appreciate Roberts honesty in reporting this event. I believe that work can only be well done when we have privacy in life. Imagine one day if you suddenly found that your life had no secrets, everything would be potentially under surveillance now and then, just like living in the novel 1984, plus modern Nano technology and virtual communication hi techs facilitated sensors around, can you still be very energetic and confident to your career and personal life? Can you still be creative and productive even you still try to be positive? One thing I always cannot understand why gossips, politics, and life opportunities are so important to some people that they dare to be invasive into others life and still think that they can be well justified.
I always believe: no relax, no privacy, then no fully development of potentiality, no matter in personal life, or refer to the economy, and society. If we had come to the age, where science and technology would be used to make people to be too funky to watch TV at home, and murmur at bed, would these researchers and supporters be creating alienators to the peaceful traditional English life?
Today, you dont need to hire private detectors to hack on others phone and Internet, some amateur club volunteers, different purpose groups, or community friends net can spread the trick on bug on others life. It seems quite fun and meaningful to some tacit persons, who cannot find other more noble things to do.
I wish that I could live in the country where traditional English value prevailed: respecting others, being gentleman and lady, keeping breath away from others privacy, being polite, and having pride in heart.
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Seems like she hacked herself... http://moralorder.mediumisthemess.com/blog
'Hack hacks Hack'
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who cares-a non story -it's all Brownwashing - the most important story is getting rid of Brown- we know why- now find out who what where when how -then you'll have a real news story!
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Peston, as the BBC's new crime investigator, could you tell us your opinion on the theft of Goldman Sachs trading software?
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2009/07/10/61361/the-cold-war-in-high-frequency-trading-turns-hot
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#71 I agree about how greedy footballers are ,90 grand a week for kicking a bag of wind about,but you missed out journalists,these people effectivly run this country,they have to be satisfied.greed is with us all, given half a chance we would do exactly as the polititians have done.The only hope we have is a curb on pc and strong polititians to tell the bbc and the rest of the media where to get off.
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Dear Mr Peston,
Surely you are minmally qualified to offer serious debate on these (tedious) shenanigans; I do not own a mobile phone, ergo I could not care less.
Tend to your own subject; there is still volcanic, critical activity in the British division of banking and finance; that beggars* muddle, the recession, (and the spectre of economic collapse) is not over by far.
Good Afternoon.
* Substitute the 5th and 2nd English vowels for the two in sequence in the word.
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#132 Thanks, Nick. The story in the link gives a vivid comic show, although therapy can have great potential harm to people's health and energy. When an innocent person could trust BBC, media staffs, different groups of people behind, he would feel it was full of sunshine. But if things were turned back against him, it would be a nightmare. From this point, I pretty like the conservative leader's view on reducing the health care staffs, and police, although I also respect labour leader. I used to read an article written by an Asian writer saying that a man knelt down all his career life to follow his party. And in the end he was still prosecuted secretly due to his political view.
I just feel that at present, this countrys science, health and news agency pay too much attention to use high techs to play the information, on human, virtual community, and on events.
I never believe that people in street can manage people to be disciplined for the community integrity or enhance the safety. In fact, it will turn into bully on the gossips, or even worse. Sometimes, I felt it very weird that some people would rather live in the virtual web to educate others than giving others a warm hello and chat in front.
Is it the time to stop the useless debate for test and research,respect people as human, and let people to sit relaxingly in sofa to concentrate in reading, watching TV news (please do not be afraid of him spotting fake news), and be happy at bed and room? When everyone can get his energy and enthusiasm to life after private rest in his time and space, this country can pick up its traditional value and go forward on the failure of experience paid by victims and others.
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Is this a business story? If might not be an obvious now, but it has potential to turn into a very big business story...
So, journos pay PIs to obtain personal details and hack communications for a cheap story.
Who else pays PIs for personal details for trade secrets? Are we on the verge of an industrial espionage scoop?
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Keep this up Robert and investigative journalism will be banned. I'm starting to question where you get your information from. Is it really so different from the sources that have been supplying the NOTW?
Why is the BBC so scared of criticising labour and so keep to drag up anything about the Tories. Oh sorry I forgot it's called balance.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I am surprised that people are surprised, what else did you expect from them?
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Surely the point has been collectively missed here. If Coulson resigned because he truly didn't know what was going on in his own organisation, then he was admitting incompetence and is therefore unfit to be employed by a political party which would like to run the country. If, however, he did know what was going on, then he was lying and resigned to save his skin and to have a chance at the job working for his buddies at Conservative Central Office. That also, in my view, renders him unemployable at high level. So there are two businesses here whose governance is called into question by this one case: NOTW and the Tory Party. Perhaps that's why there are so many right-wingers posting on here saying how biased the BBC is blah blah blah...
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It would seem that illegal phone tapping, meddling with official records and the bribery of public officals is normal within the purlieu of what used to be called Fleet Street. I know for a fact this was going on forty or more years ago.
I think the role of Mr. Coulson is incidental within a culture devoted to dissimulation and a lack of integrity. He is a journalist, was a journalist and will be a journalist in times to come.
So what's the beef? A journalist without integrity? Why single him out? Oh yes, here's the reason; he's a wicked Tory. Crucify! Crucify!
I think the soggy liberals are going to have to try a bit harder than this to get their friend, the bankrupt Mr. Broon re-elected.
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142 PrincessBonzai
Think a trip to the opticians is on the cards for you mate.
Since when has the Tory Party been a business?
Think you're missing the point mate!
They are a Political Party, very different from a business.
This is a business blog, the clue is in the title, not a political blog!
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Blair's black eye
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8133299.stm
He just can't stop the lying!
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an awful lot of effort seems to be going into creating a story , even to the extent of forcing the economics editor to blog about it.
for all the huffing and puffing it seems like no one is interested in this story.
conversely, i am very interested as to why UK armed forces have so few helicopters and proper armoured vehicles. our boys are being killed in snatches , viking and vixens.
give them all mastiffs, proper medics and 24 hr air support wheneve they need it.
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Robert. What's the big deal anyway even if these allegations of phone tapping are true?
We have a capitalist free press which isnot the same as a 'free press'!
None of the main newspaper titles that masquerade as a 'free press' which indisputably the majority of people from all over society's class divide read, hardly differ on anything of a substantial political nature.
As businesses whose sole ethos is to manipulate news events for profits (albeit they are all making heavy losses anyway due to online sites like this) papers from the Daily Telegraph to the Sun can only compete against each other by manipulating economic and political events to obscure from an apathetic electorate that the capitalist system is in crisis and is the sole cause of all global economic and political problems.
All this phone tapping business whether true or false is all part of that course to ensure that apathetic voters are more influenced by personality scandals rather than real economic problems that govern everyone's lives!
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This phone-tapping allegation is just as much a business issue as it is general political. The reason being that all the mainstream press, whether they resort to phone-tapping or not are solely out to protect the interests of business rather than society as a whole.
To the writer on here who infers that because Robert Paston is a son of a Labour Peer somehow makes him bias towards the New Labour government I suggest he/her stops allowing him/herself to be clearly influenced by these papers anyway. Labour Peers have proved in the past to be more alien to the wider Labour Movement than the Conservative Party!
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there are plenty of comments complaining about bias by bbc coverage, yet when I try to leave my comment on the NoTW comment box, it gets ignored. This is my comment they would not post:
"if NoTW wants to clear their name, make public the documents they paid £700,000 to make confidential."
Hardly offensive material. Maybe the public comment box was just for NewsCorp and Tory staff - the comments consist solely of vitriol about the "Guardi-yawn wishing the ground would open up and swallow it now" and "what a bunch of losers these labourites are".
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Some reasons why this IS a Business Story:
- Murdoch owns major media companies in Australia, US, UK, Germany, Hong Kong, New Zealand, etc. etc. - one of which has been shown to act illegally. Again. If that's not business news, I don't know what is.
- It gets picked up as a major business story for multiple international business media (incl. Murdoch's own WSJ-Europe).
E.G. This is from an interview by FOX (News Corp, lest we forget) BUSINESS EDITOR, Stuart Varney, in the US with Murdoch on Thursday 9 July:
Varney: The story that is really buzzing all around the country and certainly here in New York, is that the News of the World, a News Corporation newspaper in Britain, used
Murdoch: Im not talking about that issue at all today. Im sorry.
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Both you and nick robinson blogging the same subject....nick has over 500 responses and you have 150...... perhaps your audience is more interested in real business stories, not weak attempts to smear the opposition..Come on Robert there are big stories out there, finding them is your job as a journalist of an unbiased BBC...
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Robert
In the interest of fairness and transparency, in your "About this blog" box, the one with your photo in it, could you change the wording to
" I'm Robert Peston, the BBC's Business Editor AND THE SON OF A LABOUR PEER."
Thank you.
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Robert- you should be ashamed. Why are we surprised, people like the digger will do anything they can get away with. Mind you if she was on your payroll you would want to know what she was up to. And to be frank outside of Fleet Street and the news channels- does anyone really care, I think we all assumed that people like GCHQ monitored all our phone calls these days- have you not seen The Wire yet.
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There is a saying it is not what you know but who you know that gets you the job
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Media lawyers at JMW Solicitors, a Manchester-based law firm, have just announced they are representing publicist Max Clifford in News of the World phone hacking allegations case. Details are on their website.
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Robert. Isn't it about time you told the real story about CDOs and similar devices that they were and are premeditated swindles? Sold on entirely fictitious mortgage debt to property equity ratios and unsustainable predictions of growth of property values, the lenders not content with ripping off their customers at every opportunity finally resorted to swindling each other. This scam enabled lenders to collect the fees and commissions and waltz away from the risk they had created deliberatly hiding the rotten apples in the barrel. Once in the loop of pass the parcel they then promulgated the scam. These deals are all recorded. How about forcing the lenders to reverse the deals? We would then see where the true criminality lies and see who has no "confidence" in whom.
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Robert:
Not surprise With the lengths that someone will go to bugged another "someone" they are in competition....
~Dennis Junior~
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