Will Obama pay Goodwin's pension?
Only yesterday, or the day before, financial globalisation was supposedly about making sure that capital was transferred to those parts of the world that could invest it most productively.
That so much of the exporting nations' surpluses in effect ended up going to ex-cons and former bankrupts in middle America, in the form of subprime loans, rather exploded the idea that only good could come from the unfettered flow of capital across borders, as channelled by brilliant investment bankers.
Today's iteration of financial globalisation is - in part - about clearing up the mess left behind by the bankers' extended party.
Here is a topical example of the detritus that still needs to be cleared up: the bill for Sir Fred Goodwin's £703,000-per-year pension.
Now the government is mad keen for Royal Bank to retrieve some of the cost of this pension through legal action - and, as I disclosed the other day, Royal Bank is taking advice from leading counsel on whether resorting to law could recoup a bob or three for the bank and its owners.
Let's just say there is some kind of case to answer - although that's thought unlikely by Royal Bank's lawyers, Linklaters.
If there were any potential liability and if it were to rest with Royal Bank's former directors or with Sir Fred himself, they would probably be protected under the specialist insurance policy taken out by all directors of big companies, what's known as "directors and officers insurance" (D&O).
This is insurance that protects directors against the financial consequences of their boo-boos.
Which insurance company was a global market leader in D&O cover?
You guessed it: AIG, the crumbling insurance giant, recipient of almost $173bn of financial support from US taxpayers, and 80% owned by the US state.
In this instance, Royal Bank's D&O cover came from a panel of insurers, of which AIG was one: AIG is liable for something less than 10% of any claims made against RBS's former directors.
There is a wonderful resonance bout even the possibility that AIG could find itself picking up some of the bill for Sir Fred's pension - because in a way it would mean that US taxpayers, as represented by President Obama, would be helping to finance the most controversial pension in British corporate history.
It's another illustration - not the most significant, by any means, but one of the more striking - of how financial globalisation took a wrong turn.
In theory, financial innovation coupled with borderless flows of capital was supposed to distribute risk to those with the knowledge to understand that risk and the capital to absorb it.
Somehow I don't think anyone told the US president, or the taxpayers of America, that they might one day be underwriting Sir Fred's £16.9m pension pot.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~20~RS~)
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So technically if AIG et al had "gone to the wall" all these directors would have had no valid insurance?
Are we now unravelling some of the secrecy within the banking industry. Lord Myners allowed the pension because it was custom and practice but we have to save the insurance companies to save the individuals who caused the mess?
You couldn't make it up...
I do feel that going on and on and on about Sir Fred's pension is the red herring...if it is water tight, the only one left holding the can is Myners and by implication Brown and Darling who delegated the authority to him.
The Elephant in the room now has to be the governments handling of the whole debacle.
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Funny how you bring this old chestnut out in the same hour the BOE announces inflation has actually gone up (CPI). You wouldn't be trying to deflect the public from the worries that we may see inflation climb as growth continues to fall. Inflation appears far more linked to oil at present and this is going up.
Please ignore the Goodwin story. It's happening everywhere. He is not alone.
Tell me if inflation has surprised on the upside for the last 3-4 months yet the BOE still talks about it falling 'next month'. Only if oil collapses.
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However disgusting the pension issue may be it`s only a drop in the bucket compared to the liabilities that Gordon Brown has put on the shoulders of the taxpayers (and future taxpayers) of this country.
http://creditcrunchedoutinuk.blogspot.com
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"Somehow I don't think anyone told the US president, or the taxpayers of America, that they might one day be underwriting Sir Fred's £16.9m pension pot."
But then again, no one ever told me that I would either. All financial institutions are so incestuously linked to the point that everyone suffers because of the promiscuous behaviour of another. That is to say, we are all screwed directly or indirectly and suffer the consequences. Do I hear a large 'clap' all round?
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" ...financial globalisation was supposedly about making sure that capital was transferred to those parts of the world that could invest it most productively"
Financial globalisation has never done that and never will. Money will go to where those handling it can make the biggest return for themselves. This is NOT the same thing as 'most productively'!
Financial globalisation is just like Trade globalisation - fine in theory, but disastrous in practice.
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Gosh.. So let me get this straight - IF there is a case to answer, and IF that results in liability on part of the former directors, AIG MAY or MAY NOT be liable for "something less than 10%", a small proportion of which MAY or MAY NOT need to draw on support by the US taxpayer.. please..
"Somehow I don't think anyone told the US president, or the taxpayers of America, that they might one day be underwriting Sir Fred's £16.9m pension pot."
I doubt if anyone felt it was worth mentioning..
Why don't you focus on something important, like the Chinese recently floating the idea of abandoning the US Dollar as a reserve currency?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7960620.stm
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Not another blog about Goodwin's pension. Who put you up to this one? Time to change the record....
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This blog is quickly becoming utterly pointless; if it were moderated quickly then we could overlook the fact that Peston's pick of the day is little more than lightweight gossip, as it is interesting to chat with the other posters
but the combination of Goodwin gossip and slow moderation is soon going to cause me to haul anchor and move to a new hunting ground
taking today as a case in point, there are dozens of huge financial and business stories in the news this morning, starting with the Chinese comments about moving away from US$ as global reserve currency
but instead you go back to the Goodwin story again
Goodwin good grief!
Robert, the Harry Hill fan, is not only in Red Top tabloid territory but quickly approaching a page-3 style
I suppose that Stephanie F (TALF) and Paul Mason (E Europe) are covering the bigger stories better but surely Robert must have something worthwhile to say; or is he not the Business Editor any more?
PS: I've finally decided that Angela Merckel is right!
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Clearly, the only real gainers from such action would be the lawyers. This further Merry Go Round simply re-inforces the need for all the institutions involved to come clean about their assets and liabilities, crystallise them and allow us all to move on. Perhaps the G20 could agree on a global settlement day for achiving this? The poor old taxpayers could then recapitalise any critically wounded instiutions worth saving, the remaining carrion could be devoured by the stronger institutions.
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#2 is pot on, also
RPI used to calculate pensions, welfare etc currently 0% so no increases for the poor!
CPI used in economic policy, rose from 3% to 3.2%, so objects are getting more expensive (probably due to rising oil price (relatively as our currency devalues))
In Short,
Labour’s policy of eradicating poverty is in total disarray! THEY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY!
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It's a conspiracy - that's why some institutions were deemed 'too big to fail' and others were not.
When you have a spiders web of deceit, there is no easy way to unravel it neatly and evenly.
This is corruption to the core of our society - for too long have the people stood by and done nothing.
It's time for a REAL change.
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Those aristocrats who were getting feudal rent because such was the law got beheaded in France in 1789. And rightly so. So should Mr Goodwin. Well, not exactly beheaded, but--bepensioned.
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Only good could flow......
The major reprimand and shame of the gloablised aka western aka Anglo Saxon two decades is the complete car crash that Africa became...
In the sixties many African nations had better prospects and standards of living than they have today...Apartheid one blot on the continent then took too many years to remove...but despite the hand ringing, the smiles at the Live aid G8 meeting at Gleneagles and all the rest, many parts of Africa have descended into a medieval chaos often derived from the globalisation effects.
We all may be experiencing a terrible hangover after 'the party' that so benefited Messr Goodwin, Prince, Thain, et al...Africa was the innocent family crossing the road that got mown down by the drunks who didn't even stop..
Robert has written that Africa may unfairly suffer because of the crunch/recession/depression..this would simply be the now hungover drunks rolling their car backwards and forwards over the prone bodies in the road were it to happen...
Possibly the slump may turn out to be a good thing for Africa...but that's probably an extremely naive hope..
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Robert
The Americans should pick up more than just his pension. A lot of the losses that have been picked up by you and me are denominated in dollars and incurred in the RBS American subsidiaries.
Why are we the British taxpayers paying for American sub prime mortgages other than Gordon Brown was stupid enough to accept it?
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We have a few dozen men trying to solve our problems, as if they were trying to fix a car engine; they don't know what's wrong they just keep saying try this or try that. Nothing they do seems to do anything to alleviate the problem.
We also have a few sneaky people who keep whispering different things in different ears. These sneaks are really only offering help so they can gain for themselves.
I don't think any of these people are trustworthy, nor are they capable of fixing the mess they got us into.
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Why does the BBC focus on CPI as a measure of inflation until such time as the RPI is in negative territory when it then switches to RPI and talks about deflation?
For the last 4 years the RPI has been higher than any time in the last 10 years and was fiscally ignored. Now it makes headlines.
Who's pulling the strings?
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Robert,
You're a star!
Amongst the realities of us being a hair's breadth from deflation and all the potential consequences of that, I needed a laugh. The irony of your article gave me one.
However, to describe the situation as farce would be the understatement of the century. Brian Rix on amphetimines couldn't have come up with the things we now hear on a day-to-day basis.
(But perhaps I should have cried - I am increasingly uncertain as to just which to do).
But I do have serious suspicions about the value of continuing to support globalised financial industries. National Governments, nor collections of them acting in consensus, just aren't able to act quickly enough to prevent problems.
In my view, the pheonix that could rise from the ashes of the economire might just be national level / de-globalised banks and financial industries. (Yes, and perhaps nationalised too).
So you want to try your luck in the US market and system? Then set up a self-sufficient company over there, get your capital over there and get registered and regulated over there. I.e. when things go wrong in the US, it doesn't come back onto your UK company, its capital, its shareholders or customers. (Oh, and of course, vice versa).
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As a major reason for the failure of RBS was their purchase of ABN Amro and its portfolio of US sub-prime mortgages there would be a certain irony in the American taxpayer covering Fred the Shred's salary. What goes around comes around - perhaps the ultimate lesson of globalisation.
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So where is this deflation that we have had to reduce interest rates to near zero and start printing money to avoid, or has that worked already.
Well done all concerned perhaps we can start seeing interest rates going back up, which will push the pound up and food prices down, gently does it, we do not want to really have deflation.
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It wd be useful to know why the opinion of counsel is there is likely no case to answer. What were the terms of the policy? Insurance policies generally will not shield employees or managers from gross negligence or willful misconduct.
At the very least, this appalling pirate should not be referred to as Sir - call him Freddie the freeloader, fast freddie, bungling banker, whatever. And help the public to understand why he is getting away with it.
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AIG, Sir Fred, all keeps the heat off the real culprit Brown !
Has anyone got the brains to stop the useless spread shot and take careful aim and at least hit some usefull targets.
Unfortunatly the Conservative leader seems to be short on ideas or principles and I fear the long hard slog will get longer and harder !
Had Enough
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Sounds like RBS & AIG are in one big gang band.
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Robert,
If you're not allowed to talk about the issues you want to talk about, leave. Leave now before they have the chance to completely ruin your fan base.
The others are right this story is old, and it wasn't important in the first place, other than to highlight the fact that we the tax payer are being made to pay for the mistakes of the few.
The death of the dollar as the global currency?
The further declining power of the Pound and the UK in global economics?
Inflation?
Alt-A Option-ARM?
To name just a few more interesting non-covered stories.
'The needs of the many, out-weigh the needs of the one, or the few.'.
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#8
Dear Mr Pirate
Don't sling your hook for oceans yonder - yours is one of the names I scroll down to find on this blog.
For what it's worth, I think things like Sir Fred's pension should not be quietly forgotten - I hope this blog (and others) return to it again and again until a more equitable solution is found. But, yes, at the moment the pension does seem to be coming up too frequently here even for my developed tastes.
While I'm on the subject of equitable solutions, if enough of us keep prattling on about them - and not letting it drop - there may just be a developing momentum in that direction. See, for example Clive Crook (unfortunate name, post Madeoff), writing in the FT, talking about "fair and efficient sharing of the losses" and advocating an expansion (or here in the UK adoption) of the "resolution procedures of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation".
(http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/828b4190-170b-11de-9a72-0000779fd2ac.html)
Noddingly yrs
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I have the suspicion many suspect dear Mr Peston is sometimes 'used' for HMG purposes. Gordon and co will not stop making the bankers sole perpetrators of the GLOBAL crises we are in. To that end Gordon and co will want the bankers robbery in the limelight as long as possible. Really I can't suffer hearing about it any more. I and many I know only want to hear the ill gains have been retrieved and suitable incarceration deployed. Perhaps thjis is meant to distract from the latest HMG minister with his hands in the money pot.
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How is it that bankers who made mistakes are expected to pay for it with their pension, but the chancellor, treasury, BOE and FSE fat are being allowed to keep theirs with not a whisper of complaint from anyone.
GB is at least as guitly as sir fred and is keeping his pension, and Cameron admitted he nade mistakes but hasn't offered to give up his pension either.
The MP's responsible for dismantling the uk economy are still sticking theior noses in the trough claiming £60,000 of expenses for their parent's houses and asking for £40,000 pay rises, while the country falls apart.
Something is wrong somewhere. We know that politicians are just as guilty as the other bankers who have been running the economy but they are getting away with hiding behind Sir Fred and his friends!
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#21 joeplumber
Deflation - which seems to be where we are heading for - is prone to put interest rates up.
The trend of RPI downwards, due to effects such as housing costs going down (i.e. particularly mortgages repayments), is likely to have CPI following it over the next few months, if food prices and energy costs also go downwards.
This clearly put huge pressures on companies to suppress wage rises or to request more output from workers for less reward, in order to sell their products at falling 'competitive prices'.
This article about Japan's struggle with deflation gives a gloomy view perhaps, but it is worth a read.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7955931.stm
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WHAT bad news is ZanuLabour burying today??? - Peston again deflecting attention by Sir Fred and his pension - so what?? Crasha nd Al had Myners dealing with Fred and look how he screwed all of them - hilarious.
Who cares about anything in UK - apaprt from sleazy ZanuLabour claiming all they can - it is within the rules u know!!!!! - we r a BANANA REPUBLIC - what av mess.
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I merely have one small question....
If Freddie boy was knighted in 2004 for his 'services to banking' why has he not been stripped of this knighthood given that, with hindsight, he has provided no service at all?
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Would not the Loss Adjusters of such insurances have a thing or three to say, Mr P ?
Kindly, Sir, I would suggest slightly less emphasis on RBS; although it is still an important story there are others.
Just thought I'd let you know too, after a several days' visit, that your blog is followed in Germany....
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Why does everyone assume that capitalism "intends" anything? Capital has no motives. Capitalism is, as we can see, prone to having very bad phases. However, it is vastly better than the alternatives. The bad thing about Goodwin's pension is that it was probably legally acquired and can't be stolen back by government, which is unjust, but fact. Forget about it and focus on the real stories, such as how the gross economic mismanagement, ongoing as it is, has dumped the pound creating a toxic mix of home grown asset deflation and imported inflation.
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Robert
As Mr Curzon might say....... YAWN
I might say ..... TABLOID
Please, in future try to stick to some facts and data.
AIG are not underwriting this pension. The american taxpayer is not underwriting this pension. President Obama is not underwriting this pension.
Its a final salary scheme (two actually, one approved, one unapproved). It isn't a pot. The big numbers relate to transfer value but since its in payment, it won't be transferred.
One of your correspondents pointed out in a recent blog that the 2007 accounts for RBS detailed the pension entitlement up to the end of 2007. Further entitlement accrued up to employment ceasing. This entitlement is in funded schemes. I'd bet that before the bailout, entitlement was about 620,000 per annum.
Even you say that AIG only cover 10% of the D&O insurance so that's 10% of any claims. Why don't you mention who the other 90% is carried by.
None of them would just pay out. No-one covered by the insurance will admit any liability, they wouldn't be covered by the insurance. There'd be a lawsuit. I'd bet my disappeared pension pot that the insurers would not have to pay out.
Insurance has been globalised for years. Why do you think Lloyds of London gets hit when there are hurricanes in Florida or oil spills in Alaska.
RBS' difficulties are somewhat more local than you make out. They don't feature on the list of banks that were counterparties to AIG CDSs that got payouts from AIG to date. The 2008 losses were based on credit market writedowns and a writedown of goodwill associated with the purchase of part of ABN AMBRO. Perhaps you might like to investigate who the lender was to the many businesses that have gone into liquidation over the last year. You might find it illuminating. Perhaps you might investigate the credit market writedowns if you have to pursue this line of work.
And finally, if I was american, I'd be insulted by your characterisation of those that had sub-prime mortgages as bankrupts and ex-cons. To be frank I'm insulted on behalf of the millions of hardworking individuals who were prepared to pay higher interest rates for mortgages to own their homes and who are still paying their way.
Please remember that the internet can be accessed by anyone with a PC wherever they may be.
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According to Dr. Weiss - Six months ago, when Lehman Brothers and AIG fell, the U.S. Congress rushed to pass the TARP, the greatest bank bailout legislation of all time. But as it turned out, that wasn't sufficient either. in addition to the original goal of TARP, the U.S. government has loaned, invested, or committed $400 billion to nationalize the world's two largest mortgage companies ... $42 billion for the Big Three auto manufacturers ... $29 billion for Bear Stearns, $185 billion for AIG, and $350 billion for Citigroup ... $300 billion for the Federal Housing Administration Rescue Bill ... $87 billion to pay back JPMorgan Chase for bad Lehman Brothers' trades ... $200 billion in loans to banks under the Federal Reserve's Term Auction Facility (TAF) ... $50 billion to support short-term corporate IOUs held by money market mutual funds ... $500 billion to rescue various credit markets ... $620 billion in currency swaps for industrial nations ... $120 billion in swaps for emerging markets ... trillions to cover the FDIC's new, expanded bank deposit insurance, plus trillions more for other sweeping guarantees.
And it STILL wasn't enough.
If it had been enough, the Fed would not have felt compelled this week to announce its plan to buy $300 billion in long-term Treasury bonds, an additional $750 billion in agency mortgage backed securities, plus $100 billion more in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac paper.
Total tally of government funds committed to date: Closing in on $13 trillion, or $1.15 trillion more than the tally just hours ago, when the body of this white paper was printed.
And yet, even that astronomical sum is still not enough!
Why not? Because of a series of very powerful reasons:
First, most of the money is being poured into a virtually bottomless pit. Even while Uncle Sam spends or lends hundreds of billions, the wealth destruction taking place at the household level in America is occurring in the trillions — $12.9 trillion vaporized in real estate, stocks, and other assets since the onset of the crisis, according to the Fed's latest Flow of Funds.
Second, most of the money from the government is still a promise, and even much of the disbursed funds have yet to reach their destination. Meanwhile, all of the wealth lost has already hit home — literally, in the household.
Third, the government has been, and is, greatly underestimating the magnitude of this debt crisis.
* AIG is big. But it, too, is not alone. Yes, in a February 26 memorandum, AIG made the case that its $2 trillion in credit default swaps (CDS) would have been the big event that could have caused a global collapse. And indeed, its counterparties alone have $36 trillion in assets. But AIG's CDS portfolio is just one of many: Citibank's portfolio has $2.9 trillion, almost a trillion more than AIG's at its peak. JPMorgan Chase has $9.2 trillion, or almost five times more than AIG. And globally, the Bank of International Settlements reports a total of $57.3 trillion in credit default swaps, more than 28 times larger than AIG's CDS portfolio.
Clearly, the money available to the U.S. government is too small for a crisis of these dimensions.
Fred "the shred" and others may soon have nothing to get in terms of a pension or otherwise... All these guys will all end up with one similar fate - old, broke and miserable having done nothing for their fellow man but only amplify their greedy, selfish, ego-maniacal ways...
Good luck to the lot of 'em...
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This is not a story. What exactly is being buried today?
Of course if by some chance Goodwin does not get his dosh, by whatever means and as his reputation has been trashed he will not get another banking job, in order to make ends meet he always write a "kiss and tell" expose of behind the scenes in Downing Steet! He was Brown's main banking adviser and was a frequent guest at no. 11, so he must have plenty of ammunition to destroy Brown if he so wished.
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Enough already about Goodwin's pension.
I know nothing to do with this blog but just imagine if this govt got hold of Google's Street View! This has to be stopped. Please give Mr Brown a copy of 1984 to read to see the country he is creating(having said that it is probably illegal now as too high brow!).
PS Mr Brown is not accepting any more e-mails through the Downing St website - how predictable
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It took me a while but I managed it, I found some good news!
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Showbiz-News/Bafta-TV-Nominations-Eastenders-Star-Dot-Cotton-Played-By-June-Brown-Nominated-For-Best-Actress/Article/200903415247848?lpos=Showbiz_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15247848_Bafta_TV_Nominations%3A_Eastenders_Star_Dot_Cotton_Played_By_June_Brown_Nominated_For_Best_Actress
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Apropos of nothing, but regarding Bank of England / banks - why has the sort code for payments to the HMRC changed from Bank of England to Citibank. Are we paying the banks off directly now???
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This is peanuts compared to the big picture.
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Summer of rage starts 28th of March 11am Victoria Embankment.
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Dollar weakens from 1.38 to 1.46 in two weeks
Oil increases from 42 dollars per barrel to 52 dollars per barrel in same period
This has real impact on business and the potential for recovery around the world
It will have real impact on CPI in coming months
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Labour to romp home at next election...............
Thought that would cheer you up :)
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Clearly Mr Peston has nothing new to write and is spinning stories fit for tabloids. Money goes round and financial institutions are linked in some way or another and to insinuate this kind of connection is clearly work of a tabloid hack. It's like saying people in Britain are losing jobs due to someone in US defaulting on their mortgage. Utterly pointless.
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Robert,
You are fully aware that the Fred RBS story is a minnow story and a complete red herring
Whay are you not reporting on the Post Office possibly beocming our only trusted New National Bank? Or the US Dollar no longer being a Reserve Currency? Or when Brown is finally gong to be called account or call a General Election? Lets have some real stories. What about the 11 Million or so silent Savers and pensioners in this Country who are having their lives destoyed?
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Due to overwhelming popular demand (#26 noddinghomer) I will carry on with Mr Peston for a while longer but he's on a yellow card.......
It's hard to imagine how he could become any more tabloid than he is in these Goodwin posts unless he wants to start telling us about the economic implications of Jade Goody's death.
Actually Goody is probably more relevant than Goodwin or Geithner; she's helped to sell some newspapers (they need sales) and encouraged women to get check-ups so good on 'er.
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Dear Mr Pirate_SP500
We are all marooned in the Doldrums with you. We need a change of tack.
I assume the outboard motor has failed or that the recent 25% increase in the price of oil makes it too expensive to fill the jerrycans and that you too are dependent on sail.
I wonder whether a galley powered by culprits might be an alternative craft. You could have a select list. The floggings could continue until morale improved.
I hope your broadside finds its mark.
Yours, awaiting a fair wind
mrsbloggs13c2
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Forget about all this, this is tittle tattle. Goodwin's pension is a atom compared to an elephant in what is happening in the world now.
The really important news is that the CPI is rising, which means that the overzealous interest rate cutting is already having an inflationary effect.
And, out of interest, how come the RPI is suddenly the "headline" figure when it has barely been mentioned since the CPI was the official figure? Horses for courses I guess: CPI was convenient in the boom when it masked the asset inflation, RPI convenient now as it shows the BoE "medicine" is "working". What a farce.
Prediction: Interest rates up again by Spring next year to salvage the pound and prevent rampant inflation from becoming embedded.
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#2 Well said
Funny how you bring this old chestnut out in the same hour the BOE announces inflation has actually gone up (CPI). You wouldn't be trying to deflect the public from the worries that we may see inflation climb as growth continues to fall.
Surprise, surprise it's the effect of the plummeting pound that has pushed up import costs. Companies hedged against this for the first few months but now the effect is coming through of a 30% fall in currency from $2 to $1.40.
Brown always thinks he can get something for nothing. By ordering the "independent" BoE to cut rates to save house prices he has created price inflation.
What about this independent BoE target on inflation of 2%? Let's just forget that now. It was a pledge like companies make in advertising but rarely honour.
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How timely
off the Times website
Lloyd's warns of rise in lawsuits against business
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5965424.ece
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Stories about AIG, RBS and other fat cat directors prospering while the banking and insurance systems lurch towards failure are a smoke screen.
These are a diversionary tactic while behind the scenes negotiations go on to see if capitalism can be saved from itself.
Most countries, including Russia and China, are now following a policy of a mixed economy with elements of socialism and elements of capitalsim.
Let us hope the G20 are on the right track. It is about how the relatively stronger banks survive and how orderly the weakest ones are allowed to go under.
The Bank of England and the mandarins at the Treasury could turn out to be heroes.
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So, all the big boys are bad boys. Banks, Insurers, Auditors, Ratings Agencies, Governments and their respective officers swimming in a sea of self inflicted economic instability borne of carelessness and arrogance.
Previously successful and currently practical, productive people will pay the bill.
So.....
Let's hear it for the small guys........ If the Dunfermline Building Society can only manage a £26,000,000 loss in the current climate they look like the last standing Five Star Triple AAA rated financial institution on the planet still going in for eight digit numbers. Open an account today and watch their troubles fade away.....
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#25 Oh Rogan
Your right the story I also want to read and talk about has to be Chinese suggestion of "The death of the dollar as the global currency?"
While bobbing about with hubby fishing in sunny Torbay on Sunday, my thoughts on how to get out of the economic troubles we are all in came to the fore.
The seven anchored bulk carriers with no cargo and no where to go were hard to ignore.
So I though...as the global economic system has clearly failed,
why not take the opportunity to start the game again with new global rules agreed by all countries who wish to participate.
Write off all debts, use one new global currency in order to trade with one another.
I though your stupid woman its too simple, now the Chinese seem to be saying the same I am feeling rather smug, well that is till fellow bloggers knock me off my perch.
I agree with all... please Robert put Fred to Bed!
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Bert - go away this is really tedious stuff you are grasping at.
if AIG had gone under the lights would have gone out - go speak to British Fuel etc and see who insures the power stations - do you think they would operate with no cover
your grasp on this global mess is questionable at times!!
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In the meantime, Geithner is trying to promise future reward to the hedge funds to help "solve" a problem they were instrumental in creating.
(Thanks jd6969preston by the way: I found this via one of your links.)
http://creditcrunchedoutinuk.blogspot.com/2009/03/markets-rigged.html
Crime not only pays, but is rewarded by the state!
I am getting so angry, I think I'm turning into a Dalek: Exterminate!!
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My understanding is that D&O insurance covers Directors if they behave incompetently but not if they behave crookedly. It seems unlikely that Fred the Shred behaved in an illegal manner so the insurance would cover his case. The issue is that Fred the Shred is not solely to blame - other directors and institutional investors supported ABN Amro which is the immediate cause of RBS' fall from grace.
The CPI/RPI debate is interesting. Inflation either remains a problem or doesn't depending on which index is used. Monetary policy either has to increase interest rates to reduce inflation or decrease interest rates to remove the threat of deflation, which is what has happened. A consequence of the reduction of interest rates is to reduce the value of the currency, leading to the price of oil increasing, leading to price increases. Bank and government policy is currently based on deflation and recession being a more important issue in the short term than inflation, but the CPI figures show inflation hasn't gone away.
RPI may now be around zero, but in September which is the month used to calculate state pension and benefit increases, it was at 5% so those dependent on state pensions and benefits will do (relatively) well.
Globalisation is in general a good thing, but it implies some form of global regulation, or at the very least a global view of how business should be regarded.
Fred the Shred's pension is tabloid tittle-tattle and I think we've all had enough of it in this forum. It might make us all feel a bit happy if his head was on a stick on London Wall, but the real problems caused by the credit crucnh, and the effect on the employment, inflation, income, interest rates and the rest of the real economy are much more important.
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Robert,
The moment I saw Fred's Photofit on this blog, I decided to give the prose a miss.
This story is old hat. Change the record. Sing a new song.
This blog will be lucky to make it to a 100 even with the odd gift of a bye like this message.
Wake me up when you decide to do a proper business story.
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Robert,
At the end of the day - it matters not who is going to pay Fred's pension - but whether they can AFFORD it.
What people seem to miss is that this endless bailing out of institutions and throwing money left right and centre, and of course quantitive easing - the effects willnot be felt today, or even tommorrow, but rather in a few years down the line.
Does anyone actually believe that the Government will be able to control the hyperinflation any better than they are able to control deflation?
The monetary policy of this ignoranuses has laid the fuel, all we're waiting for is for the blue touch paper to be lit and - WHOOSH.
How are the Government going to reel in spending once it's committed billions to new projects, handed wads of cash to bankers and bought all the bad apples in the basket?
Deflation is neccesary to set the balance right for the past excesses - so why is it being touted as the devil incarnate?
Soon the market will work out that the consequences of throwing money around will devalue it's worth. The dollar and sterling are going to be worthless - the first indication being that China (and other countries) have suggested moving away from the Dollar as the benchmark for the world.
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I think most people have missed the point Robert is making here.
He is demonstrating how the network of financial friends are all interlinked and interdependent. So globalisation has failed to bring about the much promoted 'spread' we were sold on. There are many other incompetents. Goodwin is a mere example.
No diversification. One industry, the financial industry is bringing us down. Potatoes, anyone?
No spread of risk. Too few insurers insuring too many incompetents!
Robert do you think there is any good business news out there? What about the new industries we need - renewables etc. Any signs of a change in wind?
#8 somali_pirate_SP500
Well said. I suspect there are two issues here. The bog software is badly designed yet still implemented. And a below optimal number of mods who have been struggling for months have been left to cope with rubbish software. Bet the designers and developers are insisting this is the way it should be and it is everyone else who is the problem. Give it two weeks, the developers will then start whinging there is nothing they can do about it.
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And why am I still seeing this -
sheer incompetence on the part of the development team, on a par with bankers!
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RPI at 0% for the second month in a row
CPI up to 3.2% from 3.0%
Deflation is not the monster that Brown and the BofE painted it to be when the decided to QE by printing money.
If they dont stop printing money NOW we are in for hyperinflation.
Mortage approvals up for the third month in a row, Ok they are at a low level but the housing market has hit the bottom. Despite those who would like it to go further down, the supply demand model has it nailed on that prices are going to start to rise, especially as property is the one place to be in an inflationary period if you dont want to be in shares.
Interest rates will have to remain low due to the printed money and inflation. This ensures the pound remains weak against the dollar this ensures Oil will continue to rise in price which will ensure CPI inflation due to transport cost, and were back to the start of interest rates remaining low.
The elephant in the room is Browns lack of control over the economy. He has ridden the waves until one crashed over the top filling the hull with water, now he is bailing for all he is worth but it all for nothing, as Mr Andrews puts it in the Titanic movie "she will founder"
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The money go round is still alive and kicking then.
One gains something at somebody else's expense. So who insured Lehman Brothers then? And how much were they in for?
These are the ongoing problems that make this slump so difficult to call.
Until everyone comes clean about the extent of their own potential hazards this slump could carry on indefinitely.
You can't possibly compare this to the thirties. No complicated financial instruments then as there are today. Therefore it was easier to see a way out of it.
If we don't have some brilliant ideas soon the whole world will end up in a state of what we used to know as third world status. So much for globalisation. It has wrecked the developed countries when it was supposed to help the poorer ones.
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Surely, there is an easy way to make bankers pay? Make a retrospective tax law (say beginning in the tax year when the bubble began - 2002 anyone?) that taxes any earners over a million quid annually liable to a punitive rate of tax, if their business has received government aid....
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"Interest rates will have to remain low due to the printed money and inflation. This ensures the pound remains weak against the dollar this ensures Oil will continue to rise in price which will ensure CPI inflation due to transport cost, and were back to the start of interest rates remaining low."
What was I thinking clearly this doesnt happen inflation leads to higher interest rates
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HSBC are advertising on the international version of the BBC website
Yesterday I got a call from someone doing market research clearly on behalf of Citizens Bank (RBS american subsidiary). This became apparent when I was asked if I knew who sponsored the baseball ground in Philadelphia. Yes folks it is called Citizens Bank Park. Straight off the Phillies website......
:: CITIZENS BALLPARK BANKERS
These all-star bankers, courtesy of Citizens Bank, are here every game to assist guests in experiencing that Citizens Bank Park isn't your typical ballpark. From encouraging guests at the Citizens Bank Games of Baseball (located in Ashburn Alley) to passing out special treats, these friendly faces will surprise and delight fans with a host of great gifts, ideas and information…all to ensure that your trip to Citizens Bank Park is a pleasant one.
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When I saw the Citizens bank post it set me thinking about reserved names when incorporating companies....
Royal Bank of Scotland
"Royal" Nothing regal about its progress.
"Bank" Stopped lending, not a bank.
"Scotland" Not Scottish.
Time for a name change. National Westminister .... The clue was in the takeover........
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Crash Gordon is on giving a speech to the EU right now and telling them that "EU is uniquely placed to meet challenges of the global financial crisis".
Sounds familar! Where did we hear that one before??
http://creditcrunchedoutinuk.blogspot.com
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"Surf red" on the crest of the wave ,who said pigs cannot fly by the seat of their pans and claim AAAir miles !
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#2 #49
I couldn't agree more. This is just the start in a stark fall in the standard of living for many people in the U.K.
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#61 CoralBloom
Yep - you're right.
The bottom line seems to be that basically no national government, nor group of Governments (e.g. Eurozone, G20, whoever) can bring globalised financial industries into line, unless they de-globalise them in some way, probably through - SHOCK HORROR and DREAD - the process of nationalising them.
(If you had suggested that to me even a few weeks ago, I would probably have screamed, NO, NO, NO!)
The financial industries can (and seemingly do) communicate and collude with each other effectively, efficiently, secretively and quickly. It's one huge great global old pals' act - a worldwide, St James' gentlemen's club.
Their arrogance is even underscored by today's story about Abbey basically telling their UK customers who they can, or can't, use as solicitors when buying a property mortgaged by them. The arrogance of these bankers never cease to amaze me! (Barratts - the homebuilders - tried that game on with us a while ago and we just walked away from the deal).
Who the hell are the banks to tell their house buying customers who they can trust to act as their solicitors? Of course, Abbey will reply they're not trying to do that - it's just that if you don't use one of our "panel" you'll have to pay our costs.
And hopefully the customers will all say back to Abbey - stick it in your ear. (or other opening). When WE buy property, WE deal with solicitors that WE trust. It's OUR consumer decision and choice, not the banks, nor the builders, nor anybody elses.
Q: Why do bankers always think they can 'rig' everything on the planet to suit their own needs?
A: Because they get away with doing it, time and time again.
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A neat little example of how the theory just does not work, Robert..... nice one.
Like so many theories, it will be true at a certain level and under certain circumstances, but it has its limits which if approached, lead to a much more universal general theory taking over (.....kind of like energy equals mass times velocity squared in the days before Einstein had a think about it.)
I'd like to posit the greater more universal theory of efficient allocation of resources that this rather myopic one has come up against......
"The more intermediaries and stages there are, and the more types of packaging used, in getting financial capital from where it is available to where it is supposedly needed, the greater the opportunity there will be for obfuscation, dodgy dealings, and downright fraud by the money men, and consequent economic inefficiency".
The other quote relevant for bankers around the world and the City of London, especially, is that famous one from Adam Smith:
“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
I think in the end it all points to the stupidity of that preposterous request by the FSA Chairman that 'if only people would not act like animals' (the herd mentality thing), then we will be OK.
We need to structure the money system around a theory that assumes bankers and financial intermediaries will behave like grubby greedy ordinary people - in it for themselves, and for as much as they can get away with.
And then we won't be surprised.
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A.I.G. contributing to Loser Fred's pension: excellent. I wonder if we couldn't get them to contribute to Loser Gordon's pension as well.
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The truth ,the hole truth and nothing butt the truth
Dear modireaterrs you cAAAnnot handle the truth
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Post 63. Pretty much sums up my views too.
Interest rates have always been a very blunt weapon that take time to start to have an effect. Now people realise that they are here to stay for at least a year or more start to see people spending money again.
Its time to stop Quantitaive Easing and accept that
1) If we carry on printing money and boosting the economy like Crash wants then we are storing up hyper inflation.
2) If CPI is actually rising then basically we need to start to rein things in a little rather than put even more oil on the fire.
3) Accept that we are all going to pay for this over a long period of time and that now is the time to stop digging us deeper into a hole.
If Crash really wanted to help the indebted then he should have made RBS & Lloyds HBOS come to a deal to convert credit card debts to affordable loans subject to the users returning and cancelling the cards.
It makes no sense people having to still pay 20% plus per annum on credit card debts if they want to get out of a hole. If the banks offered a sensible option to the indebted this would do two things.
a) Ensure that they would likely get most of the money back they have owed.
b) Allow those hundreds of thousands of UK taxpayers on the verge of credit card meltdown a chance to get their lives back on track.
If credit cards debts could be converted to five year loans at bank base plus 5% then there would be a reasonable increase in disposable income and a regular income stream for the banks.
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This continued attempt to deflect blame from our incompetent government by banging on about Goodwins pensions really is wearing thin
When are we going to read something critical re the clowns supposedly running the country
Where did the first few billion go that quantitive easing provided?
Anyone?
(PS rumor has it that it bought govt guilts from institutions who then bought yet more giovt gilts, ie they are printing money to pay for the deficit)
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tHE qe'ers are tangoing the taxis of evil
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PS
Why can't posts be moderated reactively like most other sites?
The current system does not allow for any real debate given the time lag before approval, I cant for the life of me see any reason why its done this way
Maybe they dont want real debate?
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"All is fair in subrime loans and money". Our kind friends from across the pond shared the dodgy loans with us. They gave us this wonderful chance to take up the opportunity of a lifetime. There kindness in inviting us to join was almost in the best traditions of Madoof.
So now the pension is on the other foot, why should we not let them share in the once in a lifetime pension for Fred. In fact what they did was to bring our banks to the brink, what they did not calculate was that most of our losses could of been insured by them. So maybe we should be smiling, we have got the assets (I know not worth much) and they have the insured liabilities. So we paid them billions for keeping a roof over their heads and now is the time for this money to find its way back from Father AIG Christmas, sorry Father American Government Christmas, sorry Father American Tax Payer Christmas.
So Fred, all you have to worry about now is the pound/dollar exchange rate. That is of cause when you are not standing outside your local job centre. Highly trained banker, you want profits/losses ? I am the man for the job. Asking salary? not bothered, pension terms? now we are talking!
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34#
"stick to some facts"
You should practise what you preach,RP did not say that AIG were underwriting Fred's pension.
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78 In answer to your question as to where the billions went
The QE'errs gave the dydl doe to the mperrors taxis of evil on their way out way to their AAAirport
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66#
"will ensure CPI inlflation due to transport cost"
Did the commercial transport costs ever reduce after the falling price of oil? Don't think so!
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If AIG is judged too big too fail, then does this mean that market forces do not work?
Too big to fail implies many companies aim to grow to such an extent that they hold the power and not the electorate, not the population of planet earth.
We are being held to ransom.
We throw huge volumes of resources to ensure our security. Armies. Safes. Chip'n Pin.
Globalised organisations are a bigger threat to our security are they not?
Imagine Bin Ladin had decided to use his wealth to increase his power base by taking over banks and insurance companies, employing his friends to do the dastardly deeds.
The authorities are just as culpable. They failed to ensure our national and economic security. We have been under a silent attack for how long, and our lords and masters claim ignorance. Not by Bin, but by the super rich. Really?
And it is not over. This current bubble will not end until the average house price returns to 3 or 3.5 times the average salary. Any higher than that, and the economy, our lives, are not sustainable. It is the authorities who have that specific task of ensuring a secure, sustainable lifestye for every member of our society.
Sack the lot and at the next election vote Green, Independent, but not for the big two (just as bad as each other).
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@84
Did the commercial transport costs ever reduce after the falling price of oil? Don't think so!
NO of course they didnt for two very simple reasons.
1)The governments VAT scam reduced VAT on fuel (reclaimable) and increased fuel duty (Unclaimable) so they artificially kept transport costs high
2)The governments interest rate policy forced a devaluation of the pound against the dollar, and consequentally because oil is purchased in dollars our fuel prices remained high as the oil price dropped.
Now if you add in hyperinflation fuel prices and therefore food transportation costs will continue to rise fueling more hyperinflation.
The government have main a complete horlicks of economic management
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So Robert, when you were in China recently, did you not put your sleuth like nose to the ground to detect the end of the dollar as the global currency? Pity you were still thinking of Fred the Shred even then. Can we have a new story please.
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Food, Imports like Oil and Gas are all starting to inflate as the Pound goes South.
We now have "Deflation" in wages and salaries" with "Inflation" in essentials. Watch the Supermarket bill now rise every month.
That is a warning recipe for true disaster, yet to come, as households run out of money each month. Credit Crunch- Here it comes!!!!!!!!!
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@85
"And it is not over. This current bubble will not end until the average house price returns to 3 or 3.5 times the average salary. Any higher than that, and the economy, our lives, are not sustainable."
You can wish for that all you like , but in this country we have a supply side issue which the recession has made worse by the construction companies shutting up shop.
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Robert stop going on about Goodwin.
We all know that he is a greedy parasite but are more worried about the 'deflation' myth being spun by the same idiots who brought us the 'new paradigm' of no more boom and bust.
A huge inflation wave is on its way. Savers holding cash have so far lost only their income but not yet seen massive erosion of their principle. Had they been watching they would have seen 'natural resources' prices rise quietly by 30% since christmas. I would add that expecting cash alone to provide a long term income and inflation protection is manifestly unrealistic.
For those not yet moving out of Sterling you are going to pay for the debts of others with your life savings. No boring economic analysis is required - just common sense. GET YOURSELVES DOWN TO COSCO SOON.
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#63. At 1:39pm on 24 Mar 2009, potkettle wrote:
"Deflation is not the monster that Brown and the BofE painted it to be when the decided to QE by printing money.
If they dont stop printing money NOW we are in for hyperinflation."
Or perhaps the policy is having the desired effect and is preventing deflation? The Bank of England has an unmatched track record in managing the economy and is more than able to bring it under control again following a series of major external shocks.
Forecasting hyperinflation is a little over-the-top, don't you think? Unless you define double-digit inflation as "hyperinflation", which is not an internationally-recognised definition.
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#80 openside50
You have hit the nail right on the head my friend.
But then, who would want to debate a lost cause?
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Huge pensions,massive expensive accounts,numerous properties and a salary we would all like to have. Who are these lucky few you may ask....It's Mr Brown and Co ....It's time to look at our leaders not just a few ex-bankers and their pensions ...
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Robert, whilst I agree with others that Shred's pension is a drop in the financial ocean, you are right to suggest methods that could and should be used to prevent payment. I believe, faced with a similar set of circumstances Goodwin would do exactly what he did again -from his viewpoint it was a great success so why not? In 1125 King Henry 1st punished the moneyers for ruining the country. We must ensure Goodwin and colleagues are not guaranteed huge bonuses merely for taking nonsensical risks with innocent peoples money. If Myners hasn't got the guts, others should step forward and ensure he really is sorry.
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China is calling for a new global currency controlled by the International Monetary Fund, stepping up pressure ahead of a London summit of global leaders for changes to a financial system dominated by the U.S. dollar and Western governments. The comments, in an essay by the Chinese central bank governor released late MondayGov. Zhou Xiaochuan's essay did not mention the dollar by name but said the crisis showed the dangers of relying on one nation's currency for international payments. In an unusual step, the essay was published in both Chinese and English, making clear it was meant for an international audience.
"The crisis called again for creative reform of the existing international monetary system towards an international reserve currency," Zhou wrote.
Dont you just hate those people that say I told you so:
But hey - its one of the only perks of being a 'conspiricist nutter'
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7156932&page=1
I TOLD YOU SO, will it have to get much worse for people to accept it - or is the threat good enough? Just how good has the main stream media done its job?
Why are we not speaking about this. No doubt that Mr Preston has been primed and has his blogs and news articles at the ready.
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So the battle begins!
The Bank of England versus Spendaholic Brown
At last we see some commonsense coming to the fore. Mervyn King publicly warning Brown that the country cannot afford Brown's much heralded fiscal stimulus or to put it bluntly printing money like confetti.
Forward troops Yvette Cooper and Caroline Flint on BBC and SKY simultaneously and frantically trying to avert impending crisis.
They both looked like scared rabbits caught in the headlights.
If Brown ignores the Bank of England warning it will show that he is prepared to sacrifice the country and the people for his own political ends.
More interesting times ahead. This time it is looking slightly more optimistic.
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@91
The reason I say hyperinflation is because all commentators including the Government and the BofE have been defending the interest rate policy by claiming deflation was the monster. Those same commentators are now today cught out by the "unexpected" rise in the CPI.
If they read up on their economics they would have realised that CPI was going to be on the rise because of the fall in the pound and the VAT scam that kept transport costs high as I stated in an earlier post.
The mere fact that they expected CPI to be close to zero and RPI potentially below Zero shows that they thought they needed to keep interest rates low when in reality it is already too late and they should be higher. They let the brake off and now are realising that they needed the brake reapplied last month if not before. They will overshoot because they are too far behind the curve. hence hyperinflation because Brown wont allow them to get ahead of the curve raising interest rates high enough until after he has called an election and he isnt palnning to do that for more than a year still.
If you thought Tory interest rates and inflation trying to stay in the ERM were high you are in for a big surprise
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Is there a photograph anywhere in the BBC archive that does not show Fred Goodwin with a smug smile?
Could we not just have a Goodwin tax of 110%?
If the oil companies sometimes have to pay a windfall tax, could there not be a windfall tax on former bankers receiving big sums?
In a way, I guess that something should be done - anything however petty and ugly it looks - just to appease the common man in the street. (ie. me)
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It's a pity that the equivalent of D&O insurance does not exist for government ministers! If there was, we might have a claim against the underwriters for the last 10 years. Unfortunately, I suspect that the UK is self insured.
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We are doomed, doomed i tell thee!
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I think poor old Fred has had enough stick about his pension. There are many people who would love to be told to clear off with that kind of going away present. If he hadn't got the money he would have to go back to work and would probably be wrecking another perfectly good bank! I reckon we got off lightly since another few months of Freddie would have sunk the entire country never mind RBS.
I wonder if he worked in Iceland in his spare time?
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I presume my censored post no 50 was considered "disruptive" because I tried to orchestrate a humourous campaign to get Pesto to widen his focus from banking to include the real economy?
I will repeat my main point without the humour:
Robert: I AM FED UP WITH YOUR LACK YOUR APPARENT LACK OF INTEREST IN THE REAL ECONOMY OR IN REAL PEOPLE. Less than 5% of your posts in the last couple of months have been about ordinary British businesses. Get into OUR real world please.
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Most (perhaps all; I don't know.) public service pensions increase each April on the annual RPI for the previous September, which was 5%. So the best increase for a long time this year, but probably zilch in 2010.
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Why are we still making any comment on this man of little note. Ted [Goodwins] who seems to have a lucky sir name,instead of commenting on this fraud why cant people who have the power to do something about him do something. Continueing the subject on millions of pounds lets relate to the story of Mark Twain;s story of the One Million Dollar Note of which was shown on Channel 4 recently,perhaps this should seen as compulsory viewing for Bankers or people in high positions in the finance industries a good instructive story and Film that shows how things go wrong when people believe in something that is not.
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You know for sure you should not print any more money when this useless governor says so.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7961900.stm
I see Brown is off round the world, telling them all to get into debt. The guys a joke!
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WHo on here thinks Brown will last the year?
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The end for jaguar?
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
I wouldn't bail them out, why should MY tax money bail out a foreign company?
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WE WILL ALL BE PAYING FOR HIS PENSION FOR SOME TIME ... LIKE GORDYS
LEGACY PROBABLY 30 to 40 YEARS!
GOSH WE MIGHT BE MODERATED TONIGHT??
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#35 dreamstaragents:
"Total tally of government funds committed to date: Closing in on $13 trillion, or $1.15 trillion more than the tally just hours ago, when the body of this white paper was printed.
And yet, even that astronomical sum is still not enough!"
-------------
If you are correct, and I suspect you are, then there is not enough money which can be printed, borrowed, QEd in the world to fix this problem.
These CDO and CDS are truly financial WMDs.
I cannot see a solution that could possibly save the system.
As the captain of the Titanic said, This ship is unsinkaguggle.
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#104 Oapjunkie
"man of little note"!
What a generous blogger you are.
This is a man who brought one of the worlds largest banks to the brink of total collapse.
I think the history of this episode, when written, will see him as a man of some significance, although not for positive reasons.
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anymore disencumberedcomplexification will be the death of us all
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It seems that the economic forecasters were expecting CPI to fall rather than increase ? Is it possible that they overlooked the fact that QE dilutes the value of every pound in circulation or held in bank accounts and its effects are supposed to be inflationary. Or perhaps they thought that the fall in the pound against the dollar would not affect the cost of oil contracts or transport costs or imports from those countries with currencies pegged to the dollar?
Looks like the treasury has got it wrong again
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I'm not sure that D&O insurance covers this. But where it might come into play is when the major shareholders who were suckered into taking up the original rights issue of, what ?, £22 bn, try to get legal redress against the 'D&O' who might allegedly have lied in the prospectus. And who was that? Ah yes...
And I wonder what the policy excess would be on a claim of £22bn if it went against him? About the size of Fred's pension pot, maybe?
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Slight change of topic.
Someone has finally stepped up to the plate and told it like it is. Many of us who are regular contributors to these various BBC blog sites have been posting comments to this effect going back to last year. Mervyn King did not say anything today that most rational people in this country haven't known for some time now.
But still as King was making his comments Crash Gordon is over giving a speech to the EU and telling them that all of Europe must spend more to stimulate the economy! Can someone please tell me what`s going on in this man`s head because I for one would really love to know. I think even for Darling the penny has finally dropped that we are all out of money but Brown still wants to spend like a drunked sailor. I'm really fearing for the future on this country with this man at the helm.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Maybe no-one told him to expect to pick up AIGs bills if it went wrong, but he's been happy enough picking up the profits and tax dollars for years - some of which must have come from the bank to pay for the insurance.
What has distorted enormously is the risk nation states bear by hosting outsize companies (not just financial). Given much of their earnings comes from other countries, we need to make sure that they too pick up their share of the support to them, in a more global framework. That way, smaller countries could still grow big companies - but not have to pick up the entire bill if its goes wrong. Doing this equitably is key to large multi nationals continuing to exist.
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javaman 106
I wish he would go TOMORROW but i fear we are stuck with them ALL till
2010,after all they wont want to go to the JOB CENTER to sign on like
their VICTIMS?
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A £703,000 pound pension can be rendered worthless if a collective society removes his purchasing power. Banks have the right to deny him access to accounts, credit card companies are not obligated to provide him with buying power. Shops do not have to accept his business, restaurants can ask him to leave.. If this knight amongst today's society feels his retirement plan is merited he should make his case. Lets here his valid argument balanced with his statement of true sorrow at the pain RBS has caused. Until this is forthcoming I suggest we remove his ability to enjoy his gains. We are ethically outraged, we can act ethically accordingly.
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It doesn't matter who pays Fred - provided that the U S reimburse R B S. At least if it is paid in the U S there is some chance that they might slap a 90% - I would have preferred a 95% as stated before - tax on the entire pot. Perhaps if he examines his conscience Fred might now consider paying the 95% back to the company.
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Robert
The US will do what is necessary with regard to inappropriate pension payouts and that is the cultural difference between the UK and USA - A Darling also has the opportunity to go after the Goodwin pension in the next budget with an aggressive retro-active 'tax snatch' on Goodwin but I think that neither G Brown or A Darling have the metal to do this.
This is the problem with G Brown flitting around trying to save the world
(and his own megla-maniac grip on power) - he does not have the metal to to what is needed (laws, special debate/vote in Parliament for emergency legislation etc etc) regarding these bad pensions - we all know that!
G Brown must do us all a big favour and call a general election NOW - No PM should carry on borrowing/spending like him without a proper mandate!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Next month sees the BP AGM with Sir Tom McPillock up for re-election as a non-executive director.
The election is endorsed by the board on the basis that "Sir Tom brings capabilities and expertise wihin the areas of international business".
Presumably that's to do with negotiating skills associated with the pension deals of any outgoing BP executive who might have cocked up.
Does anyone know how much a non-executive directorship with BP is worth?
It might be a nice resting place for the otherwise unemployable Sir Fred Youknowwho.
This morning at the railway station I asked for a non-return on the gravy train but the lady in the ticket office just looked bemused.
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Just walk away from debt!...you know it makes sense?
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#113 Even if there is D&O insurance the insurer will not be the defendant in a class action against the company and its directors. The insurer will only come into play after judgement is handed down. If a plea bargain is the solution the insurer will step away contending incomplete disclosure when the risk was priced.
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#106
With regret, I have to say I do.
Not because I want him to, but because he, and his soon to be destined to the dustbin of history backbenchers, will hang on to milk the system of every last penny for as long as they can.
It cannot be much of a prospect to have to pay your own way after years of living off the tax payers largess.
Pay my own mortgage! HORROR.
Pay my own travel to work! HORROR
Pay my own subsistence costs! HORROR
No more freeby overseas trips! HORROR
Pay for my holidays! HORROR
No more free lunches! HORROR
The prospect is HORRIBLE.
I will have to live in the real world like an ordinary person.
Who'd be an MP? Only 60K GBP per annum. It doesn't bear thinking about.
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Not wishing to sound trivial, but we have a PM who cannot even tie a decent Windsor Knot.
Is this a man fit to represent Her Majesty as her First Minister?
Some standards must be maintained, whatever the other difficulties.
After all, we are British.
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Banking is the modern Alchemy or Perpetual Motion Machine, where we kid ourselves we can make something from nothing. And it worked for a while too, because we used the witchcraft whilst swiftly swiping a gold nugget from a 3rd-world mine to feed the gaping hole in the logic. But now the game is clearly up. As a nation, as a hemisphere, we've made a fundamental mistake: we entrusted the very stuff we depend on to keep the economy going - to keep us fed and warm - to a bunch of charlatans: "no, really, if we shift this around here, and leverage this, and underwrite that risk, then yes, we can take your 8 hour day of productivity and create a whole week's worth of wealth". Wealth cannot be created or destroyed any faster than our hands can introduce complexity or dig it out the ground, it can only be borrowed or taken; from others or from the future. You can introduce efficiency, but step over that line into the never-never and it's theft from the future. We might as well give our blood to these people and let them splash it from jar to jar, tube to tube, convincing us that it really was more than we gave in the first place. It was all one big Ponzi scheme.
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come on Robert...the real story today is Mervyn King has torpedoed GB's G20 plan....
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Yet another journey through the looking-glass...
What utterly delicious irony!
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Almost a year ago I submitted a comment which I never saw in print, to the effect that the Directors of RBS AND the auditors who signed off the 2007 accounts should be investigated for signing values attributed to certain assets and then within weeks telling the public that the value of the assets were in fact grossly incorrect , as they came to the market with a rights issue. Presumably they only discovered this a few weeks after they had earned hefty bonuses as a result of the (very inflated ) 2007 results. Now, more people are coming round to the opinion that everything was not as it should have been, and are at a loss trying to stop the pension pot of the errant Director. Well in the case of Al |Capone there was also some problem getting justice through the front door, but he went to prison anyway for tax evasion. I suggest that the investigation I tried to start last year should now be taken up, and if Sir Freds pension can not be stopped by going through the front door, then go through the back door, as in Al Capones case.
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#96 "the country cannot afford Brown's much heralded fiscal stimulus or to put it bluntly printing money like confetti."
But that is effectively what the banks did during the boom years. They borrowed some, and printed some. Now it's all gone sour, much of this money is either destroyed, tied up in toxic assets, or not being used. There is still time to repudiate the toxic banks and let them go under. It would be a huge loss of face for Britain, but these banks are still limited companies, and much of their debt is not YET sovereign legally. Then money could be printed and not borrowed, and targeted to working people and productive industries. So long as purchasing power is matched to the goods and services available it does not matter. If we can't have controls or tariffs, we need a low value of the pound anyway to discourage imports. We also need a strategy to aim for net self sufficiency in goods and services.
Most money is an entry on a spreadsheet. Much government borrowing is really getting someone else to print the money, but paying them a percentage for it. Printing it is more honest and less inflationary.
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Well done No: *126 Truly well written. My support also to *127
When is Mr Peston going to start on really professional journalism and investigate where we are all going?
What and if Ukraine goes bust!! They owe the IMF 16 Billion and have not made reforms. The IMF have stopped loan payments and the Ukraine Banks have frozen Depositors savings as they are effectively bankrupt
Austria, Germany and France have loans of Billions in Ukraine and default by Ukraine will be like the US Lehmann Brothers debacle.
This Blog is really going stale and New Labour Political. I sence the hand of Mandleson here. Is he is pal of yours Robert?
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??? 110,111,121,124,125. EBAHGUM. YOU APPEAR TO BE A PERSON OF MANY WORDS,BUT OF LITTLE THOUGHT. PERHAPS IF YOU READ IT AGAIN YOU WOULD SEE A TRACE OF SARCASM IN WHAT I WROTE AND THE ATTENTION OF ACTION AND NOT WORDS IN CONNECTION WITH FRED.READ THE BOOK OR SEE THE FILM AND ALL WILL BE REVEALED
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"Surf Red" the beechboy[beechboy] made a living on the crest of the banking goodbuy wave ,soon to be converted with the help of the QE'err folk into a tsunami , in order to refloat the British economy by wiping out the deflation trough behind the crest which threatened anhiilation of the leviraged stAAAtAAAs quoerrs caught with their pans down in front of a mountain of fractional reverse dydl doe
The idea that taxiyerrs will pay for the QE'err stuffed trojan hores later, deflects from the debasement of the currency now taking place by most central banks ,they intending to disguise it in the trough behind the goodbye wave, that will turn into a tsunami orgy of capital destruction floating the indebted owls and pussycats off to their bongoland haven
What else can one say but "Oh Phuket where are my water wings "
AAA,S it was in the time of KNOWAAA so shall it be at the coming of the son of man
This post has been expurgated to BS 6213112116
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Oour mperrors have proved once again that they can resist everything except temptatation, by getting on with the QU'err stufff whilst the deflationary trough between the waves presents itself for their inspection and filling of its way out way.
No doubt "Surf Red "the king of the goodbuy waves will be laughing at the pigs in the trough who thought that they could also fly and get tax deducktable AAAir miles...quack quack quack!
If IT looks like a pig and walks like a duck and quacks like a can aaairy ,then its a .....
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Morning Robert,
thank you for that fascinating insight to Fred Badloss and his pension.
Now I think that the real story of the day is the Spanish.
Let's see, BAA was bought by the Spanish with huge leverage and they may now go bankrupt if forced to sell.
B and B was given to the Spanish -to a very safe bank then whoops along came Bernie Madoff and spoilt that party, I think that there is more to come here.
Now for the coup de grace from this Government....Mr Geoff (Buff) Hoon has stated that the Government will raise no objection if British airways becomes a Spanish company!
Why does this Government believe in selling (or giving away) everything to the Spanish?
I prefer the Australian solution...nobody will buy more than 49 per cent of any of their strategic assets. Why can't we have that viewpoint here?
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116, 124
Personally I can't see Brown holding on, things are getting hairy IMO. Either the riots this coming winter (I say winter because thats the next time the energy companies will try to rip the public off, couple that with inflation (or devaulation of sterling)) or the backbench revolt (because Labour are finished, this time for good) will see him O.U.T!
I mean the last 2 times they got in they brought the country to bankruptcy, who would vote for these poeple again? You would neew to be mad!
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But who else do you vote for? Yes, the bunch of clowns in this administration have overseen the biggest financial collapse in generations and, having (foolishly) promised "no more boom and bust", have presided over the deepest recession in many years. But the Conservatives would have fared no better, supporting as they did the very financial deregulation and "light touch" administration that led to our current sorry situation. In fact, the Tories frequently called for even less regulation and control over these heroes of the free market.
The only people who really seem to have a grasp on the situation are the Lib Dems, but in a two-party system a vote for them is almost always a wasted vote unless huge numbers of people can be persuaded to cast their vote the same way.
Right now, I'd vote for whoever promised a change to the voting system.
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Goodwin's pension is bad but the real RBS pension shocker is that £800M of the bailout money from the govt went straight into their pension scheme which was underfunded because it lost money betting on RBS shares.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5877790.ece
How did government let them get away with taking 10% of the bailout money which was supposed to strengthen their balance sheet and use it to fund banker pensions. There are a lot of much better ways to spend £800M.
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#18 "Why does the BBC focus on CPI as a measure of inflation until such time as the RPI is in negative territory when it then switches to RPI and talks about deflation?
For the last 4 years the RPI has been higher than any time in the last 10 years and was fiscally ignored. Now it makes headlines.
Who's pulling the strings?"
Because there's lies, damn lies and government statistics !!
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#135 "Why does this Government believe in selling (or giving away) everything to the Spanish?"
Perhaps they are trying to make amends for a couple of centuries of plundering the Spanish Main !! Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum !!
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#129 "if Sir Freds pension can not be stopped by going through the front door, then go through the back door, as in Al Capones case."
FYI, the Yanks let Big Al out of the pokey not long afterwards during WW2 by doing a deal with him. What's the betting that Sir Fred will never be offered a "deal" ??
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137,
Personally I see a massive swing to the right on the cards, a large turnout for BNP would create a right wing Tory party.
Is this a good thing? Perhaps not however, the namby Pamby approach of Labour have the indigenous population of the UK 'Seething’ and its set to get worse when the real effects hit the poorest!
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Prooft that the economic model is broken beyond repair?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7962656.stm
Perhaps the UK getting rid of non essential manufacturing was a good thing, instead focusing on capitalist tendancies ;-) In any case I think the model is damaged fatally, a new world of energy efficiency and renewable should emerge. Gordon Wake up, stop sleeping on the job!!!
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This here is blatant and continuous spamming of this blog. Where are the moderators when you need them?
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somali_pirate_SP500 wrote:
You could be onto something. After all, it's Stephanie F whom the news presenters turn to for an opinion these days.
Did Peston do or say something to upset his Lord and Master Brown?
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If the Govt continues to spend money we cannot afford Goodwin`s pension won't matter anyway.The breaking news at the moment is that Sir Fred`s house in Edinburgh has been attacked last night with windows smashed out and a car vandalised - we better get some of that money over to him quickly for the repairs!
Mervyn King finally stepped forward yesterday to say what the rest of us have known for a long time - we are broke so stop spending!
Even as King was having his say GB was over speaking to the EU to tell them we must spend more to stimulate the economy. If that wasn't enough he has headed back to the US today with the same message - spend, spend spend.
I can't say where this is going to end up when all is said and done in the future but I can say no good will come for the average man on the street.
"King correct to warn Labour against more spending"
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Financial globalisation 'took a wrong turn'?
What a master of understatement you are, Robert.
Don't you really mean something like 'financial globalisation systematically and deliberately robbed the world's citizens blind with the sole intention of lining the pockets of a relatively few individuals without an ounce of moral judgement between them'?
I know. A clumsy sentence. But while we're drowning in the legal fishing net that these people inevitably put in place to protect their 'earnings', let's at least not lose sight of the moral dimension.
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After Sir Fred's house and a car parked in the drive were attacked last night, will the police be calling on all those people who have publicly vilified his lawfully received pension?
The court of public opinion seems to have been called into action by much inflammatory rhetoric, and we now have "mob rules" vigilante action
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While Crash Gordon is busily jetting around the world and telling all and sundry to follow his example of printing more money and spending that, the Chinese are quietly battening down for the great storm to follow:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7961106.stm
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7960620.stm
Obama's $1+ trillion dilution of the US economy has finally had its effect on the creditor nations !! They have lost faith in "portraits of past American presidents" and want a *NEW* reserve currency that will be equitable controlled by those who contribute *real hard cash* towards it in accordance to their share of the contribution !! This will, of course, put Britain on the same table as the Third World countries since it has *NO* real hard cash to contribute !! Accordingly, Japan, China and the other BRIC nations and some Middle Eastern countries will sit at the main table !!
The battle cry now is "Put up or shut up !!" No amount of posturing and spin will be accepted in lieu of hard cash !! Crash Gordon should not expect the cash-rich nations to pay for his ever-expanding spendings black hole - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7962654.stm
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i dont think you reported this Robert
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]........ i wonder why?
No mention either of the Governor of the BoE trashing GB's G20 plans....Lets focus on the real politic instead of this constant tabloid journalism...the BBC should be ashamed of itself, it is nothing more than the official broadcast wing of the labour party.
And as for the BBC blogs....what a disaster, how many times am i going to be told that as a new member i will have to wait whilst my post is moderated... I am not a new member any more than prolific posters like mr somail pirate or mr alexander curzon...good grief you cant even design a blog that uses the GB pound sign...i despair.
(i expect you will find an excuse not to print this)
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Is Free Speech not allowed by the BBC these days???
All of a sudden my posts are being blocked with no explaination for the reasons why.
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So now I read that Sir Fred's home has been vandalised by some small minded morons. Pathetic really. Nobody is covered in glory as a result of all this stuff but things like that are out of order.
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>>> Will Obama pay Goodwin's pension?
No. We the taxpayer will pay the fees for expensive lawyers until the case is dropped having been decided as hopeless.
This whole article is just political spin.
Robert you are losing the plot...
PS
Japan Exports... try that one for size; or Goldmans exiting TARP...
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MersonTuffers wrote:
Perhaps because he really was of service all along. You presume that our World Leaders don't want the situation we now find ourselves in; after all, it gives the perfect opportunity to introduce their New World Order they're always banging on about.
# Gordon Brown calling for an NWO
# Tony Blair calling for an NWO
# Gordon Brown calling for an NWO again
# George H. W. Bush declaring his dream of an NWO in 1991
# EU calls for an NWO
# Kissinger calling for an NWO in 2007
The New World World is not just a turn of phrase for them, it's a project and has been one for a long time. Whatever their prima facie political differences, they're all working towards the same goal -- a one world oligarchical government and a one world economy.
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#151....free speech, of course why else is this blog pre-moderated....
from the messageboard rules ......Pre-moderation - every single message is checked before it appears on the board. All of the BBC's children's message boards are supervised in this way.......
so we are classed as children?
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After the Inflation figure CPI and RPI etc and Mr BOE's explanation to the lords about the make up of these figures set by the El Gordo et al which in term effect Mr BOE's expecation for interest rates are part of the core problem of the last 12 years that can be firmly set at No10/No11
That would be a good line to puruse but then the tories what to freeze the licence cost of the BBC, so I guess that will not be discussed, which is why the issue of Inheritance tax got blown out of allow proporation , this is a side show to the main event of the colossas mountian of debt tax payers are going to have to pay on hehalf of Mr Crash Gordon
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What exactly does it mean when it is listed:
"This comment has been referred to the moderators"
I thought it says in your rules that users will receive a notice by email should their comments not be deemed suitable.
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The bailiffs have been busy in my neck of the woods.
Families are forced out of their homes as the bailiffs board up the windows and ignore the pale faces of the children.
There is no council housing available so the homeless are literally that, homeless.
Last minute pleading calls to the banks are ignored. The government home assistance scheme doesn't exist.
So this morning, hearing about FG, I found it hard to dredge up any sympathy.
No one can justify violence. But FG and his ilk have has justified the violation of thousands of people losing their hopes jobs homes and futures today.
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Now that Fred's home has been vandalised and his family are living in terror I hope you are proud of yourself ,Robert , for stirring up some of the bile and hatred in the community......when will the first person die?....perhaps you might realise that when you are writing about someone you are writing about a real person with a real family, who did what he did in good faith ,and but for the turn of events would still be a national hero.
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Big ocean liner!......Speed boats! President Obama has a list of seafaring analogies to describe the economy.
I wonder if Mr Brown can find any nautical terms to describe ours.
NB TO MODERATOR, it may be worth altering spell check to accept OBAMA,also can the system stretch to using pound and euro signs instead of strange boxes. Thanks.
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Mr Peston and his ZanuLabour cronies and the BBC have a lot to answer for - sorry would be a start but that will never happen - vilifying Sir Fred for all they were worth whilst TRYING to deflect averything away from Clown and his mess. WHAT will they do if Sir Fred or members of his family r attacked physically???? - signs of Zimbabwe.
MAYBE mr Peston and his unbiased!!! employers could actually report on REAL stories, like Ms Flanders, and STOP ZanuLabour spinning - some hope I suppose..
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The dividends of Fred's investments are starting to flow in for Fred...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7962825.stm
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#159 onward-hohoho
I wouldn't condone vandalism of Fred's house and car (though all property is theft, as Fred and RBS so ably demonstrated) but Fred wasn't in and I very much doubt his family are living in terror
Fred is presumably enjoying himself on a beach somewhere and his family are living in comfort, not terror
If Fred, the AIG execs etc are in personal danger then the best way to help them out would be to put them where they belong - in a nice minimum-security prison for white collar crime, alongside Bernie Madoff, Conrad Black etc
But I guess he'll probably opt for the Caribbean instead
What a harsh future Fred and his family face, worrying about the possible vandalising of their 2nd, 3rd, 4th homes and cars; compared to your average unemployed ex-Woolies worker trying to survive on £60.50 a week, who has nothing much of value to vandalise!
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still waiting for the email explaining why my #150 post was not published.....i just read all the rules and can not find the one that i have apparently broken... surely could not be that criticism of BBC is not allowed?
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The attack on Sir Freds' home shows how angry the British people are.
Tens of thousands of multi-millionaire financial staff have wrecked the economy by their actions and greed, but refuse to give up their ill-gotten gains.
I have never known such a rebellious public atmosphere in my lifetime.
Americans are also showing a hatred of Wall Street, which has "removed" millions of poor Americans from their homes by turning their houses into "securities", and then throwing them out when they couldn't pay.
Obama is recognising the public mood, and throwing the book at the bankers, but Brown is just waffling.....he still thinks they are wonderful.
But all of us must recognise that ordinary bank branch staff are not to blame....they are in the same sinking boat as the rest of us.
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O Joy be Unconfined ...
Apparently, someone has just vandalised one of Goodwin's houses in Scotland and smashed his merc. How terrible.
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137
rbs_twmp
I vote for the Green party - have to start somewhere and they'll never get in if even believers like me don't vote for them
I'm in a secure Tory seat with an ok MP so it is 'protest' vote, but Labour started off as a new party when the country needed a change...
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161. At 10:13am on 25 Mar 2009, ronreagan wrote:
Mr Peston and his ZanuLabour cronies and the BBC have a lot to answer for ...... WHAT will they do if Sir Fred or members of his family r attacked physically?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have they not already? Have no fear, ronreagan, I have this very morning despatched a gang of strong cruel men to string them up. But not for too long. I wouldn't want to interfere with the very necessary emasculation, drawing of entrails and quartering.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
152. At 08:56am on 25 Mar 2009, goodethernet wrote:
So now I read that Sir Fred's home has been vandalised by some small minded morons. Pathetic really. Nobody is covered in glory as a result of all this stuff but things like that are out of order.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Oh no they're not.
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I don't know how most of the posters here find the time, presumably they've nothing better to do. However I find myself temporarily housebound and in no position to be fussy, so here are a few random thoughts:-
a)When I left their employ five years ago I got a letter from RBS promising me a specific pension when I hit 60. Outrageous though Sir Fred's figure may be (I'll get yearly a little less than he'll get weekly), I'm not happy to concede RBS the right to renege on an agreement. If they can do it to him, they can do it to me!
(Vince Cable had spoken so much sense about the whole crisis situation that it was bitterly disappointing to see him jump on this particular populist bandwagon!)
b)I heard no suggestions that Lord Ahmed lose his title after being convicted of causing death by dangerous driving, and let's not forget Jeffrey Archer! FG hasn't been charged with anything never mind convicted. Actually (outside of the foam-flecked rantings on some blogs) I haven't yet heard any credible source suggest that he's done anything illegal. At least, not without changing laws retrospectively.
c)If FG hadn't been operating in line with the wisdom then prevailing in banking circles, RBS shareholders would have looked at their comparative underperformance, fired him and replaced him with someone more "imaginative".
d)The "Court of Public Opinion" is just a polite term for mob rule.
e)This whole mess involving toxic assets created by the securitisation of sub-prime loans did not start in 1997. In first heard the term "securitisable loan" in 1984, when I was instructed to go through my branch's loan book to identify those which met "secrutisability" criteria. This was not too long after Ronald Reagan signed the Garn-St. Germain Bill, allowing for "Alternative Mortgage Transactions".
f)Finally, there far so many postings on here how do you choose which are worth reading? Apart from the obvious course of ignoring anything unpunctuated or chronically misspelt, I find a good rule of thumb is to skip any which overuse BLOCK CAPITALS, exclamation marks!!!! or end with that attempt to depict a knowing wink, an ellipsis...
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CA55ANDRA wrote:
It is indeed terrible. But you'd have to be living on Mars to think this wasn't going to happen. There are always glory hunters wanting to make a name for themselves, and so it was inevitable that an idiot or two would rightly or wrongly take it upon themselves to avenge the perceived misdeeds of bankers.
Anyway, the Edinburgh Evening News is claiming to have received two emails from a group claiming responsibility for the vandalism. They don't give a name for the group, but they have published the email address from whence the correspondence came.
I still, however, think it was some chancer and not part of an organised campaign. One thing is for sure; anti-terror laws will be used to arrest the criminals.
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142 Javaman
Possibly not a good thing, compare 1930s Germany,
well describedl at Oradour-Sur-Glane
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135 jolo13
I think it more likely the fear the collective knowledge wisdom and intelligence of many posters here?
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155 jolo134
sorry - got the wrong blog number with previous post
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159 ONWARD-HO
Its a bit rich blaming the media for demonising Sir Fred. He did it to himself when he ignored the outcry re his pension.
If you and your family were being kicked out of your home today....or losing a banking job as thousands today are, do you think that Sir fred would give a fig?
If I were Mrs Fred I would suggest to him that he use his cool half a million a year to help those whose lives he has ruined. Maybe he could get in to help at SHELTER charity centres or maybe even set up a website advising the homeless about their real options.
When Albert Nobel read his ( premature) orbituary he realised that his hedonistic lifestyle was worthless.Only then did he use his skills to improve the lives of others. Maybe this moment could be Fred's Nobel moment.
The AIG bosses were shamed in to paying back some of the post bail out profits and now they are being hailed as heros.
It really wouldnt take much for Fred to redeem himself. We are a forgiving race....but stashing his cash and sneering at the taxpayers who paid him will only help the Edinburgh glaziers.
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Goodwin's pension is the final insult to injury! The fact that his incompetence and greed led partly to the downfall of the economy could be forgiven (albeit grudgingly) had it not been for this atrocity! When will the nation wake up and stamp this sort of behaviour out? Let us not forget that our democratically elected leaders are there to serve us and not the other way around!!!
The pension should forcably be removed by law, after all is the law not there to provide justice and not to serve as obstacle to it!
http://www.freenation.org.uk
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The vandalism against Sir Fred is horrid, scary and intolerable.
Jacqui Smith is to blame. She said yesterday that "even when no laws have been broken, we need there to be a civil response against people who do not respect or live by our most basic values". Jacqui Smith prefers the tyranny of the mob to the rule of law. I disagree profoundly with Jacqui Smith. Though Sir Fred does not live by the basic values of equity and fairness that the rest of us adhere to, "civic action" is NOT the correct response.
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There is a celebrated seventies case where Associated Engineering took over Autoparts after a very hard fought acrimonious stock exchange battle between the parties. In the early stages of the battle which was viewed as David v Goliath, the Autoparts Board of Directors wrote themselves very lucrative employment contracts with substantial loss of office compensation clauses. When the takeover was complete Associated Engineering reviewed the contracts and fired the Autoparts Board. The case was taken to the High Court because Associated Engineering would not pay the compensation or recognise the new contracts.
The High Court Judge found that the Contracts were Ultra Vires the Directors (Beyond the Power), because the Autoparts Board was aware that it might lose the battle. The Board was therefore only empowered to conduct the normal transactions of the business on behalf of the new potential owners and the new contracts of employment clearly did not fall into that category. I cannot see the difference between the Goodwin Board and the Autoparts Board. The Goodwin Board sought the support of the Government and the Public, and was aware that at the end of the negotiations the Board might not be in office in the form that it was prior to the request for Government help. In other words the Board would have to seek the authority of the Government for transactions that were not in the normal course of business. The pension arrangements in my opinion are clearly Ultra Vires the Goodwin Board should not be paid and as a consequence are not covered by the AIG insurance arrangements
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There is a simple solution for the Bonus and Pension debate.
This limp government should pass a law where any bailed out company that pays bonuses to staff should pay double the amount back in tax.
As we are all agreed if it were not for the taxpayer bailing them out they would be out of a job with no bonus and joining the 2 million plus unemployed.
The same applies to excessive pensions, which should be capped at the legal limit, which i understand is approximately £127,000?. If any bailed out company pays out more, then again they should pay a tax of double the amount paid out. For if RBS went to the wall, then Sir Fred would only receive the government limit surely?
For those companies 100% government owned no bonus or excessive pensions should be paid until they have repaid the taxpayers bailout monies.
By the way why is Sir Fred getting preferential treatment with a police car outside his home, again a complete waste of Edinburgh council taxpayers money.
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152. goodethernet: 'So now I read that Sir Fred's home has been vandalised by some small minded morons. Pathetic really. Nobody is covered in glory as a result of all this stuff but things like that are out of order.'
The animals! How dare they! The attack Fred Goodwin's home and car is of course tragic, really really tragic, and monstrous, as any attack on a rich banker or politician would be. Probably the worst thing that happened in the whole world this week. I couldn't think of anything more unjust or upsetting. I feel for Fred Goodwin, with only millions of pounds and his Knighthood to make him feel better. How will he cope?
I haven't stopped crying since I heard about it. I'm not sure that I even can.
I've been crying so hard that I'm actually worried I might cry my eye balls out.
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I agree with the posters that say this is a lightweight posting by Preston or red herring etc. There is more substance in many of the replies. Generally speaking the level of reporting or insight provided by BBC on the financial crisis is of a very poor quality and amounts to nothing more than appealing to or promoting populist notions and in the meantime there have been some shockingly ignorant productions that have found their way on to our screens ( I am thinking of one of the Panorama shows on offshore tax schemes etc which didn't even make a single newsworthy observation and completely muddled up personal tax avoidance with what Northern Rock did to fund its mortgage book )
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Robert,
Was it you at Sir Fred's villa last night?
http://ethicaleconomy.blogspot.com/
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Yes, as our old friend 'Somali Pirate' says, this blog is now in terminal decline. Time to move-on soon. Just some final comments:
SOVEREIGN DEFAULT - its now approaching. Remember last year when it was thought that the big UK clearing banks were OK? Comments that they were in fact insolvent were dismissed by 'experts'. In the same way, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Ukraine, Slovakia, etc. etc., the dominoes are falling, but of course the UK & US are 'to big' to fail???
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For most of us, the rule of law is better than the law of the jungle. But respect for the rule of law will break down if the law does not deliver justice.
Sir Fred and his ilk have destroyed the lives of many many thousands of people. Because of crazy pay and pension arrangements, together with low taxation for the super-wealthy*, he and his family have become part of a new aristocracy. They may have risen from the lower orders, but they have pulled up the ladder behind them to make it more difficult for others to do the same. New Labour have been absolutely complicit in this, which is one reason why I will never forgive them. The Tories want to entrench this by reducing inheritance tax further. One thing is clear in my mind: democratic meritocracy is incompatible with aristocracy, be it financial or traditional.
I want future generations to have genuine opportunities for personal advancement: not the chance to become servants to the descendants of the Footsie 100 klepto-illegitimocracy.
*compared with the post war years of high death duties and supertax.
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173,
That's exactly what I meant, do the powers that be have a plan ;-)
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We are supposed to be a civil society and mob rule has no place (no matter how much some may think it is justified)
# 117. returnofthegoodlife posted that Sir Fred should be shunned by society, left to carry his own bags from the airport, refused rides in taxis etc. become an 'unmentionable'
Putting bricks through his windows will not achieve the results we assume the brick thrower wanted.
Why does the Deputy Leader suggest that 'the court of public opinion' will act if the law doesn't ? (which I take to mean the baying mob)
Why does the Home Secratary "even when no laws have been broken, we need there to be a civil response against people who do not respect or live by our most basic values" ? #post 178. Dreaming_Ben (which I take to mean, 'get out on the streets and protest')
Why does a senior member of the Metropolitan Police suggest (rather gleefully) that G20 protests are going to end in rioting ?
Why does a different senior member of the Met suggest that it is going to be a long hot summer of discontent ?
Freds' pension is a distraction, there is a much bigger dimension to all of this.
The State (not the government which is an arm of the state) will protect itself using all means neccesary. Just what means does it mean to use ?
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Wonder if Brown and T.B.liar are worried about copy cat events at their 2nd 3rd 4th home that they claim expenses for ?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Come on chaps. Guilt auction failure. Where else will we finance the recovery from? Auctions usually covered 2 times. Less than 1 for 2049 issue.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
171. At 11:20am on 25 Mar 2009, ageinghoody wrote....
f)Finally, there far so many postings on here how do you choose which are worth reading? Apart from the obvious course of ignoring anything unpunctuated or chronically misspelt, I find a good rule of thumb is to skip any which overuse BLOCK CAPITALS, exclamation marks!!!! or end with that attempt to depict a knowing wink, an ellipsis...
I agree, best to skip the chronic misspellings and overuse/abuse of emphases of one sort or another, though pithy Alex C is excepted. I would add the following criteria:
(1) anyone who insist on calling him Mr Preston
(2) anyone filling one whole screen as one turgid paragraph, however relevant and interesting I need to protect what's left of my eyesight.
(3) anyone complaining about moderation/censorship
(4) the loonier conspiracy theorists
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185. At 12:28pm on 25 Mar 2009, sashaclarkson wrote:
"I want future generations to have genuine opportunities for personal advancement: not the chance to become servants to the descendants of the Footsie 100 klepto-illegitimocracy. "
Nicely put Sasha. Let us agree that the last 30 years have really blown society off course and consign the Neo-con/Neo-liberal/NuLabour paradigm to the dustbin of history once and for all. The next paradigm has to encompass (1) one world - we will have to share our future much more closely than we shared our past (2) fair shares of our finite resources (3) altruism not selfishness (Hayek & Von Mises - come in, your time is up) (4) conviviality not conflict
There's much much more but maybe thats enough for now....
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Forgive me if I'm wrong but is this the right place to ask why the government failed to offload all of its gilts at auction this morning?
The last time this happened was 1995.
Robert, is business or the economy not your remit anymore?
Have you been gagged?
Are you tied up with the next Freddie story?
The silence from you and your colleagues is deafening.
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185. sashaclarkson wrote:
"For most of us, the rule of law is better than the law of the jungle. But respect for the rule of law will break down if the law does not deliver justice."
Agreed, but the law has also to be seen as being equitable and balanced and proportional. We are moving to a society where 'the law' is increasingly seen as being used for the purposes of social control and generating financial gain by the state - terrorism legislation, financial penalties for minor motoring offences being out of all proportion to the offence and serious crimes not being punished by adequate custodial sentences.
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To CA55ANDRA and maroon3:
You sound like the kind of "peoples' action" militant hippies who would be the first ones to be quoting your rights if something happened to you.
I don't approve of what happened with Goodwin's pension either but it doesn't justify smashing his windows like some petulant child.
What next? A bit of a kicking for him next time he's seen in the UK? Then what? A peoples' court and up on to the nearest lamp post?
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Gordon Brown is smarter than we give him credit for. He's hitting back at Sir Fred's pension in the most effective way he can - Printing money like confetti until the devaluation of the pound renders it worthless.
(There may be other minor economic effects)
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#Noideaatall
I agree with all you say and the outcome would ideally be one you suppose
What I find hard to understand is that no matter how many times I repeat this to people around me they appear not to understand. That the simple answer to this depression would be to take on board that we, the people, are the only ones who can really solve it. The more the government tries to help themselves the deeper this is going to go.
Yes, I know Crash and others have said if only people would start spending but in reality they can't because of the policy they are following 'global' - trying to save the big stuff and not 'us' the little stuff
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The possibility of AIG picking up some of the tab for Goodwin's pension may be somewhat poetic -- but how long can it take for a group of lawyers(same mould as bankers and insurers etc ) to DO something -either the pension is OK in law or not! In either case G.B's blustering of a week or two ago has once again proved to be a lot of hot air, he obviously hopes that it will all go away if he looks the other way --as decisive and effective as ever Gordon!
When oh when will we get some "leaders" who can "see themselves as others see us" ??including letter of the law parliamentary expense claims !
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On "too big to fail" and "the market will find the price". The reason the two are incompatible is because the former deals in the reality that the market as a model has on people, the latter is a principle of a self-regulating system. The principle makes a poor assumption: it assumes an infinite room in which the pendulum may swing before it starts to dampen. The reality is the planet is finite, resource is finite. Given an infinite set of resources a self-regulating system - and the court is still out on whether it really is fundamentally a balance-seeking model or inherently unstable - the model will right itself. Not all pendulums swing shorter and shorter until stable. Introduce complex dependencies and it's very different, even if the system is become stable. Compare one pendulum hanging off another.
There is another reason that having faith in the market righting itself should give us no comfory. The assumption is that the resulting balance that is found is one that is pallatable for us as a race. Compare global warming, where many claim that nature will right itself. This may or may not be true; even if it is true there's no reason to suppose that it will right itself with humans at the top of the food chain. It may just be that the stable state for captialism that results from this is, for example, with three or four trillionaires and a million dead from starvation each year. There's no reason to suppose that a stable system is a pleasant one. We're making a huge assumption that the result of this change is worth the medium term pain, but that's not neccesarily a good assumption.
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#BankSlickerminustheR
Bit late, but thanks for your post - I loved it
I could hear Del boy saying it too! ROFL !
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#195 the_fatcat
I understand and sympathise with your sentiments but to date no "serious crimes" appear to have been identified.
Having poor business judgement (such as buying over-priced toxic assets at the top of the market) is not a criminal offence despite the damage it may inflict on the public at large.
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Thorntonheathen
I hope that your brave new world of "conviviality not conflict" will encompass some generosity toward those less erudite than yourself.
I consider myself duly chastised and will sign off to leave this blog site to my betters.
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#192 - Thanks for the input, and thanks particularly for choosing not to pick up on my own misspellings; I struggled with securitisability in 1984 and clearly still do!
The additions you make have much merit, although if I was being picky I might suggest that those falling in categories numbers 3 & 4 frequently tend to also overuse the emphases!
As for Alex C., well I'm afraid that it was the first posting of his I saw which accentuated my prejudice about block capital users, and I've always skipped him since! Maybe I was unlucky and/0r caught him on a bad day, so I'll give him another go sometime.
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196. goodethernet wrote:'You sound like the kind of "peoples' action" militant hippies who would be the first ones to be quoting your rights if something happened to you.'
"peoples' action" militant hippies? Who me? Couldn't be more wrong mate. Actually I served this country in war time as a Paratrooper in the 2003 governement sponsored 'direct action' invasion of Iraq.
You have to ask yourself, if people like me, and that's speaking as someone who once considered myself a proud and loyal British subject and supporter of the state, the rule of law, the monarchy and everything it stood for; if people like me can find that the current situation has eroded every single one of those loyalties away to absolute zero leaving me feeling nothing but utter disgust at the current regime (both parties) and the system that nurtures it.
If people like me begin to share similar world viewpoints with the 'militant hippies', as you so delicately put it, then you can be damn sure the pendulum of public opinion has swung against you and might yet whack you in the face.
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However much we all think Fred the Shred should not receive his pension it has to be acknowledged that he earned some of it, a large proportion at least, in other companies. So if he returned any of it, it would only be that accrued at RBS surely.
The thing that's being annoying me is the news programmes keep running that piece of film, when Fred the Shred is being driven out of where-ever, and he is pretending to be busy on his mobile, when its patently obvious he's not. He is just trying to make it impossible for anyone to eyeball him and he can stare off into the distance. He knows he's getting away 'scot free'! Ughh it makes me feel distaste just watching it.
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#203 anewworld
Stick around.
Nil illegitimo carbarundum.
There is an occasional lack of common civility on this blog.
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EBYGUM
Cheers my friend.Will do.
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196. At 2:32pm on 25 Mar 2009, goodethernet wrote:
To CA55ANDRA and maroon3:
You sound like the kind of "peoples' action" militant hippies who would be the first ones to be quoting your rights if something happened to you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. I'm a rather conventionally inclined "suit". I haven't had the honour of serving in Her Majesty's armed forces (as has Maroon 3 who responds above to your same accusation) but I also consider myself a loyal subject of this country.
I am disgusted and angry at the behaviour of what has become a self-perpetuating and self-serving corrupt elite that encompasses both major political parties and a clique of business and banking "leaders".
Join a march on Westminster and throw every MP into the Thames? You bet I would.
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#209 CA55ANDRA
And what happens after you have polluted the Thames?
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Trashing Mercs and smashing windows, this bourgeouis discontent is all beginning to sound a bit like J G Ballard's Millennium People ,with its outpouring of mass Psychopathology and with Fred the new Guy Fawkes of Bitter Britain.
Basically Fred got his loot for delivering the greater part of bank en masse in one piece to the government in the face of likely shareholder and taxpayer fury .....and he did it well in comparison to the Lloyds Hbos merger.....his reputation is in tatters and he had to get paid for being the supposed baddie.......there was a deal to this effect, otherwise he would not have been paid off, but what is interesting is how the deal got leaked and how there is universal condemnation of this man who is actually nursing multimillion pound losses and loss of future earning capacity.We largely conclude what we are meant to conclude, but this violent outburst on Peston's blog on the same day as the man got attacked is a bit scary.
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Wow
I have just had my first entry removed!!
I mentioned the brilliant Daniel Hannan three minute speech to the EU where Gordon Brown had to sit through it all just grinning and making notes. Daniel has a huge traffic level for this three minute speech on face book and has today reached the massive Blogger at www.drudgereport.com This Tory MEP is getting some very serious levels of cover in just 48 hours. In ten years I have never seen GB so comprehensively and scathingly slam dunked.
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One unforeseen benefit of the omnipresent economic domsaying is that it has overshadowed the previously dominant environmental doomsaying of the greenbores and their pseudoscientific consensus who themselves took over from the youth-and-society are doomed orthodox bores.
Serial bores at least rotate.
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Robert Peston:
Will Obama pay Goodwin's pension?
Probably, Yes...Since A.I.G. is receiving an U.S. Government bailout Ongoing.....
~Dennis Junior~
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Robert:
Somehow I don't think anyone told the US president, or the taxpayers of America, that they might one day be underwriting Sir Fred's £16.9m pension pot.
I already knew that...The U.S. Taxpayers will be "underwriting" Sir Fred's pension payment plan, since it is covered by A.I.G., Which is being given financial aid by the United States Federal Government....
~Dennis Junior~
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Robert:
1)Which insurance company was a global market leader in D&O cover? My answer is AIG
2)You guessed it: AIG, the crumbling insurance giant, recipient of almost $173bn of financial support from US taxpayers, and 80% owned by the US state.Slight Correction in the terms....The U.S. Federal Government inside of the term U.S. State.......No, I am not surprised of the cross-the-pond, terms...
~Dennis Junior~
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Robert,
Over 200 blogs, most expressing concerns at what has happened and the problems we all now face.
However, what has happened as a result? Not much! Some tinkering here, a commission or a report there and the incestuous relationship between business and politicians continues.
The public continues to be abused and the real problems are the lack of capable management and accountability in UK plc, an incestuous and corrupt "jobs for the boys" mentality, a lack of concern by regulators and the fact that whilst the general population will complain, it does not do anything as either we feel disenfranchised or cannot enforce change.
If no one learns anything from this catastrophe and changes are not made, we are, unfortunately, doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Why do I have no faith in the business leaders, bureaucrats and regulators? Well, it is very simple; who was in charge and got us in to this mess?
Who is sufficiently concerned and wants to take a stand to demand changes and to have accountability for this mess our leaders have got us in to?
Pagoda52
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Sir Fred and the rest of the upper management of the failed banks should be swinging from Blackfriars bridge.
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I do not understand why or how "our" Government can simply sit on their hands, or the fence, or both, leaving the RBS to look into possible legal ways in which to recover money from Goodwin?
As far as I am concerned, Lord Myners is solely responsible for allowing this money to be paid to this failed former chief executive, he was afterall supposed to be looking after the taxpayers interests. The RBS is responsible, through Tom Mckillop, for failing to sack him, Goodwin, in the first place at which time they should have commenced legal proceedings to recover salary, pension & any other benefits he received from the time that it became apparent that RBS was in trouble because of Goodwin's poor or mis-.management.
Why does the Government not set an example of real leadership, step in, sue Goodwin for everything that he was paid including this gross pension & strip him of his knighthood too.
Whilst they're at it, sack Lord Myners for sheer incompetence, which we are now being asked to accept as some form of naivety. Furthermore, whoever proposed or appointed Lord Myners, should also be sacked for a serious & hugely expensive misjudgement of another's ability.
Let's have some real & proper accountability, it's our money, not theirs!
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#219
"If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." - Thomas A. Edison
Of the few remaining possibilties I have left, the most obvious and likely one is that he is heavily protected - but we will never be told why and by whom. What leverage does he has on whom? To whom is he useful? What groups he belong?
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