COP15: Tumbling towards a deal
It's amazing how fast things can move when the big guns are rolled out.
The most powerful gun of all here today appeared to be Hillary Clinton.
I use the word "appeared" deliberately. The substance of her proposal on financial aid to developing countries isn't very different from what we've heard before - establishing a fund of $100bn per year by 2020, which the US would help work towards.
She didn't even say how much the US was prepared to put in itself.
But her mere appearance here seemed to infuse the summit with... what? Optimism? Purpose? Yes-we-can? I'm not sure what the right term is, but here - after eight years of American non-engagement on the international climate policy scene - was a senior US politician putting forward what other countries wanted to hear on the issue.
The issue of transparency - essentially, letting other countries see that you're curbing emissions as you say you are - has been a big bone of contention between the two countries. I gave it eight out of 10 on the potential deal-breaker scale in my last post.
But here, following Mrs Clinton's announcement, it showed signs of melting away, China's minister He Yafei signalling that Beijing was willing to "engage" on the issue.
How did this emerge? How many times have the two presidents talked about this by phone over the last weeks?
These are a couple of the questions that lie in the murky hinterland of what the Danish hosts have repeatedly insisted is an "open, transparent process".
There are many others. Leaders and their environment ministers and their trusted aides have been hurrying here, scurrying there, Blackberries at the ready, always in a rush, always slightly late - a snowstorm of political leverage.
Heads of state are here, they need to walk away with a piece of paper; so let's do what we need to get one they can sign.
And - barring the chance that one or more countries will stand on principle and decline to join the consensus - it looks like they will.
How many of them will actually understand what it says and what it implies is another matter. What will be in front of them in the morning will probably, we understand, be a tidied-up version of texts that negotiators have been discussing and refining during this fortnight and on and off for the nine preceding months.
Much of it is just a mite technical. And the infamous "square brackets" are likely to be very much in evidence in some important places.
But after this most chaotic of days, it looks very much as though a deal will be done; what a turnaround a few hours' concentrated lobbying can make.
Whether it's a deal that does much for the stated aim of tackling climate change, though, is another matter.
I'm Richard Black, environment correspondent for the BBC News website. This is my take on what's happening to our shared environment as the human population grows and our use of nature's resources increases.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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Yet more nonsense Richard about "tackling climate change". Cognitive dissonance still reigns.
BTW Joanne Nova has blogged about you. She is not amused. http://joannenova.com.au/
To quote "Note that Black, like other uninvestigative journalists, assumes that there is “overwhelming evidence”. I challenge Black to name and explain one paper with empirical evidence that carbon dioxide leads to major warming"
I too in the past have asked you to show the evidence, but you never have. I guess it is a religious belief you have. Or you fear for your cushy job at the beeb.
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I wonder if there have been a few phone calls between Washington and China, after all if Obama can get some concessions from the Chinese then that gives him something to sell to congress. I doubt whether he will come just to go back without an agreement.
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Richard: "The most powerful gun of all here today appeared to be Hillary Clinton."
Here is a link to the webcast of her speech.
Ms. Hillary Clinton Copenhagen, Denmark, 17 December 2009
(Requires Microsoft or Firefox browser)
All the best; davblo
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"Heads of state are here, they need to walk away with a piece of paper; so let's do what we need to get one they can sign.
And - barring the chance that one or more countries will stand on principle and decline to join the consensus - it looks like they will.
How many of them will actually understand what it says and what it implies is another matter."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
As I've said before this is oh so like the negotiations on the Lisbon Treaty.
Such are the machinations in which our precious democracy is lost so that I'm not sure there's anything left!
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is that a recent photo of Hill-dog?
is it just me or is she gaining weight?
how will that impact her carbon footprint while she's jetting all over the world?
no worries, she can afford a few extra indulgences courtesy of one of the goracles companies i expect.
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'what a turnaround a few hours' concentrated lobbying can make.'
a telling phrase for anyone who doubts the green movement is anything other than just another lobby/pressure group.
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tears of our forefathers #5: "is that a recent photo..."
It's good that you reveal the true nature of your perspective on global affairs. I shall treat your comments accordingly.
/davblo
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davblo:
thats cool. i don't even read your posts. people with more patience than me have long since accepted that your mind is made up and no alternative views are worthy of consideration. its no biggie.
respectfully
TOOF
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Mr Black, Thank you for the report, and the links. And thanks for the Hillary Clinton link, davblo.
I feel strongly it would be wrong of The Guardian to holler, "Failure!"
Those of us who have been working for this, arguing for this for decades would have preferred, undoubtedly, something More, something quite a while ago...
Still, this is a Beginning, and if it goes through (I would expect it will) it marks a turning point -- a genuine refocusing of human energy & attention to the consequences of our lifestyle choices & our business decisions, not to mention government policy, social landscape, etc.
I would invite those who have argued the opposite point of view to become more thoroughly informed, and look closely at how lives happen all around us to see obvious, quite painless ways in which these lives might be made wiser.
Let us hold off on congratulations & applause until the work is done, but, sincerely, acknowledge that given the struggles involved, even with an insufficiently high target for the hoped for results, it is a vital point of departure.
And we may all get better at the work that needs to be done, more quickly than we have up until now surmised. Maybe even quickly enough to save the little island paradises that are under greatest immediate threat.
It has to become the most compelling, universal cause of this age. It will also, as many have predicted, lead to economic revival, rather than the opposite.
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BTW Joanne Nova has blogged about you. She is not amused. http://joannenova.com.au/
I think I'm in love.....
What a woman!
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Interesting article from the Sydney Morning Herald here:-
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/two-degrees-to-disaster-20091217-kzhv.html
Go to ‘News releases’ on right hand side here:- http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/indexe.html of Japanese Meteorological Agency and click on:-
‘Third Highest Global Surface Temperature in 2009’.
The ‘sceptics’ claim scientists have got limitless funding. Why this then? –
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8417365.stm
A bit about what’s happening ‘down-under’:-
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/phone-alerts-as-fires-burn-out-of-control/story-e6frg6nf-1225811555457
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Davblo, thanks again for the link to the Hillary Clinton webcast.
I agree it is & was highly significant.
If this is the "opening act" to President Obama's appearance, and as she says he comes with six members of his Cabinet, that is a very promising development.
Stay tuned.
Mr Forefathers: Now, really, must you stoop to insulting a lady? Would you have used similar language to describe Cyrus Vance or George Shultz?
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tears of our forefathers #8: "davblo: [#7] thats cool. i don't even read your posts."
But you clearly did read my #7.
Self contradiction; another trait of yours?
You are not impressing us with your integrity.
/davblo
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i'm pretty sure i didn't hurt her feelings. anyone want to call me a flatearther like my prime minister?
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Flat earther at post 1.
Here’s just a few papers on CO2 as a greenhouse gas for you to google. Once you’ve read them please don’t hesitate to ask further questions.
Arrhenius (1896). This means that each doubling of CO2 adds a fixed amount of radiative forcing and, to a first approximation, temperature increase (Enting, 2007, p. 41-43) and pp. 54-56.
The calculation is as follows: ΔTe = TeΔQ/(1- α)S ≈ 1.2°C, where ΔTe = change in equilibrium temperature; Te = initial equilibrium temperature = 288 K; ΔQ = increase of radiative forcing from a doubling of CO2 ≈ 4 W m-2; α= planetary reflectivity or albedo = 0.3; S = solar constant = 1,370 W m-2. Source: Lorius et al. (1990), p. 139.
IPCC, (2007a), p. 12; and see also Roe & Baker (2007) for a good discussion of why it is difficult to narrow the range of climate sensitivity further than 2 to 4.5°C.
Hansen et al. (2008), p. 226.
Garnaut (2008), p. 246.
Knutti (2008).
This is interesting with regard to Joannenova blog:-
http://www.desmogblog.com/debunking-joanne-nova-climate-skeptics-handbook-part-3-climate-models-have-it-right
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No. 14, Mr Forefathers, kindly revisit the BBC's Carbon Dioxide in a Bottle experiment, courtesy of the Ethical Man.
Really, this is not a stretch; this is not a conspiracy.
Decades ago, friends & my husband who flew over the USSR reported the burning gas wells that were simply allowed to burn on -- and on -- and on -- for years & years & years, uncapped -- by the thousands.
Think of it: by the thousands.
There are dumping grounds all over the planet where masses of old rubber tyres are burnt, around the clock, for what seems like an eternity -- not to mention other kinds of toxic wastes.
There was one near Fresno, California that went on for over a decade, that I remember about.
There are the fumes of the countless Confined Animal Feeding Operations -- which produce animals that in America, as it turns out, go directly into the landfill since some 30-40% of all foodstuffs produced by US companies are DESTROYED UNSOLD, to maintain high prices.
There is all kinds of wrong-headed human activity on this planet, Mr Forefathers. It's about time we all acted in concert to put a stop to egregious mismanagement. There's just no excuse.
Yes, it's a big planet. But there are billions of us. And, collectively, we do indeed make a difference: for Better or Worse.
Let's make it, definitively, for Better. How hard is that, now? Tell me.
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Toof at post 5. Rude as usual. Mrs Clinton is after all 62 years old.
Your use of the word ‘cool’ (not used by anyone over thirty) and your light weight and rather crude banter tells me that you are probably PR. I don’t suppose you’re going to own up though?
By the way, if you want to continue the ‘ad hominems’ (which you said you’d given up on), I wonder what your waistline will look like in thirty-five years time?
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13. At 11:54pm on 17 Dec 2009, davblo wrote:
touche! i'll bite, anything to say about this bit of my post:
'people with more patience than me have long since accepted that your mind is made up and no alternative views are worthy of consideration.'
do you want to repost your list, again?
No. 14, Mr Forefathers, kindly revisit the BBC's Carbon Dioxide in a Bottle experiment, courtesy of the Ethical Man.
thus speaks a non scientist (forgive the ad hom but its very fair). regarding my shot at hillary, ok i understand a lot of the ladies are sensitive about that kind of joke. naughty TOOF. never again i promise.
17. At 00:32am on 18 Dec 2009, thinkforyourself wrote:
i prefer the description 'abrasive'. i am PR? what does that even mean? is it like mr kazer? are you implying i have substantial vested interests i'm not revealing? cos i don't i'm afraid. sure i've studied pr and its evil twin propaganda, using proAGW media coverage as a baseline. as a start point i'd recommend a book called lingua tertii imperii by victor klemperer.
kk so no use of cool or quips about the venerable, cuddly ladies. can i say kk or is that out of order? if you read my earlier disclosure properly, i say i'm nearly 30 so not sure what you're point was tbh. what about richards bit about all skeptics are rich well educated white men? if you're going to complain about what i've said i bet i can find your posts complaining about richards somewhat prejudiced post from the other day? right?
looks like i've upset a few folks. my apologies. just trying to get you to think for yourselves.
peace out folks
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' Let's make it, definitively, for Better. How hard is that, now? Tell me. '
in all sincerity i don't know. just like the people in copenhagen right now. try getting them to be that honest though.
worth a look for the openminded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKoUwttE0BA&NR=1
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'thus speaks a non scientist (forgive the ad hom but its very fair).'
i feel the need to explain this cos i'm under fire here :'(
20% co2 =200000 parts per million. not 380 odd. seriously that 'experiment' was a joke.
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To Ghost-of-Sichuan
(re: last blog - they change quickly!)
\\\ Balance, Copenhagen, Airplanes - and Decision ///
I have learned a few more hard lessons this last little while on the blog, and your comments rang clear and true despite the pain.
I read your post #9 on the last blog while at a university library after work, then I walked home, the Sun having just set. I stopped in a large park, in the snow, under calm and mild conditions, a Chinook having just blown in the other day, producing a thirty degree C temperature rise.
The great planet Jupiter was in the south, outshining all the stars in the sky, but a jet was coming in from the west, where the mountains brooded under the ruddy glow of sunset. It's landing lights outshone even Jupiter - how appropriate - man's invention, his technology, dominating the night. The pilot banked south, towards Jupiter, then east, to intersect final leg at the airport, no doubt.
Much has been said around Richard Black's virtual campfire these last days - much that is hopeful, 'Brave New World', as it were.
Much eloquence, much rational thinking - but it all leaves me slightly cold.
It seems I have heard and seen all of this before.
I don't believe it.
Politicians are specialists, many, perhaps most amongst us are too, at least in part of our lives. But one gives up much in specializing, perhaps exactly in proportion to the degree of focus. Doubtless one who does this learns something of this give and take, and attempts to learn from this too, but I am always left wondering how much balance can really be achieved in this manner. In fact, what is 'balance'?
You mentioned once that nature is the source of balance in your way of thinking, if I remember correctly.
I have been wont to call nature my own 'sounding board,' which is another way of saying the same thing, I believe.
I do not think these world leaders have this type of balance, and I do not think they will do more than what is expedient, which is not at all what is needed.
I am thinking my blogging will reflect this decision of mine in the future.
Regards,
Manysummits
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Richard Black writes:
"... proposal on financial aid to developing countries ... establishing a fund of $100bn per year by 2020, which the US would help work towards."
in other words: in ten years from now we will perhaps spend one-fifteenth of last years global military budget on helping to improve our lot. nice gesture.
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manysummits #21.
(greetings)
"But one gives up much in specializing, perhaps exactly in proportion to the degree of focus."
found a nice quote, similar concern.
"If we spoke a different language, we would perceive a somewhat different world."
-- L Wittgenstein
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Anybody care to explain in laymans terms why there's a conference discussing global warming when 48 US states have recorded their lowest record temps between the 10th and 18th December and similar number have recorded record snow falls?
http://mapcenter.hamweather.com/records/7day/us.html?c=maxtemp,mintemp,snow
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The World Bank should not be the trustee of the new climate effect mitigation fund.
This is a fresh start. A new institution is called for. The World Bank does not have an unimpeachable reputation, due to its association with the likes of Wolfowitz, Bush-era neocons, and its implicit role in the financial debacle of the past few years.
It is not that difficult to come up with a small new body comprising the leading emitters & leaders in this process. Like the Security Council of the UN, it could include some permanent members from the largest economies, and some rotating members, and also some elected members.
A smaller format would be helpful. The centre should be in Europe, not the US. The EU has access to the best technology, whereas the USA has dragged its feet for decades.
Had Washington been more forthcoming sooner it might have had a legitimate claim on taking the lead as trustee or permanent address of the Climate Trust.
Wrap this conference up with the simple steps necessary to make the structure work.
I propose that Norway, as the world's per capita wealthiest nation & one of the most advanced, provide the administrative infrastructure & facilities for this Climate Trust.
Norway sustained the least amount of damage from the financial debacle & this, in my opinion, makes them best qualified to take on this role.
Not America: anyone but. If you base such a Trust in the USA, it will be staffed with sabotaging elements and the not-so-qualified: because that is how things currently happen in the States.
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Hillarious Hillary can give the store away for all the good it will do but it's not a done deal until the United States Senate says it is and that yes vote is far from a done deal.
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i like quotes!!!
HL Mencken:
Platitude: an idea (a) that is admitted to be true by everyone, and (b) that is not true.
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.
The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office.
Frederic Bastiat:
“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone.”
“We cannot but be astonished at the ease with which men resign themselves to ignorance about what is most important for them to know; and we may be certain that they are determined to remain invincibly ignorant if they once come to consider it as axiomatic that there are no absolute principles.”
“The state is the great fictitious entity by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else.”
Frank Herbert:
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires, seek discipline and find your liberty.
The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience.
Bertrand Russell:
Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty - a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.
The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.
fun fun fun
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For a review of China's involvement in international environmental agreements (including issues related to international monitoring and verification), this older paper provides some useful insights.
China: Environmental Protection, Domestic Policy Trends, Patterns of Participation in Regimes and Compliance with International Norms
by Lester Ross
The China Quarterly, No. 156
Special Issue: China's Environment (Dec., 1998), pp. 809-835
And, specifically with a focus on the climate agreements:
Increasing Participation and Compliance in International Climate Change Agreements
by Scott Barrett & Robert Stavins
International Environmental Agreements: Politics, Law and Economics 3: 349–376, 2003.
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thinkforyourself #15
You obviously can't think for yourself if all you can do is reference such papers. You know physics has progressed just a teeny bit since Arrhenius. Think quantum mechanics?
Desmogblog. You cannot be serious!!
As a physicist, I love CO2 and all its life giving properties.
Well done Joanne; what a girl.
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In this week’s edition of Science magazine, the column ‘ScienceInsider’ includes a review of the political situation for the climate-change debate in the U.S. Senate, including interviews with the key players, analysis of the biggest issues, and a look at where the votes are, among other stories.
One part of the article considers whether the Senate would ratify any agreement emerging from Copenhagen. Under the U.S. Constitution, two-thirds of the Senate, or 67 votes, are needed to ratify any international treaty. At least 45 treaties signed by U.S. government officials remain unapproved by the Senate and there appears to be a general reluctance on the part of senators to commit the United States to international agreements However, there is another way to commit the United States to an international climate agreement, however, without having to clear the 67-vote barrier. It would require adopting, by a simple majority, what is known as an executive agreement. Since the 1940s, the United States has approved 90% of its international deals (literally thousands of them) through so-called congressional-executive agreements. These set up a framework law that gave some level of oversight to Congress and requires fewer votes for subsequent treaties to pass. Most trade deals work this way, and give Congress "a place at the negotiating table" both before and after the treaty is signed.
See: Science 18 December 2009: Vol. 326. no. 5960, p. 1613
And, on congressional-executive agreements, see:
“Paving the Way for U.S. Climate Leadership: The Case for Executive Agreements and
Climate Protection Authority”, Nigel Purvis, Resources for the future, available for downloading from http://ideas.repec.org/p/rff/dpaper/dp-08-09.html
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the 11th hour approaches
no surprises at COP15 then
PS
@TOOF
Glad you apologised for the hit on Clinton, there is no need
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#14 tears of our forefathers wrote:
"i'm pretty sure i didn't hurt her feelings."
I'm sure you didn't hurt her feelings, but you sure hurt my aesthetic senses. Are you a teenage boy? Have you, er, "problems" with women? Are you that nitwit who muttered the "A" word on Newsnight?
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BBC Ethical Man CO2 Experiment
The BBC screened the CO2 experiment, which we can all try at home!
Basically 2 water bottles were filled with air and in one of them a lot of CO2 was added. 2 lights were turned on, 1 on each bottle. Wait for a while and take the temperature. Unsurprisingly, the one with the extra CO2 was a higher temperature than the one without!
Er...hang on, how did that experiment actually represent the earth's atmosphere? Was the additional CO2 carefully measured to represent any of the IPCC's scenarios? Was the bottle "well mixed" GRG's? Did convection play any part in the process? Where were the feedbacks both positive and negative?
Pure propaganda
/mango
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[Sombre music]
Political leaders hammer out a tough deal to slow down Global Warming.
[Cut to outside shot]
Meanwhile, on Planet Earth, it's ... SNOWING
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#34 - also in the southern hemisphere?
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The irony of todays news headlines. More snow and cold causing chaos. And 'World leaders' meeting to 'fight global warming'.
Please will someone tell these imbeciles that there is no direct link between the Earth's temperature and CO2 emissions?
That the temperature rose at about the same rate 1900-1940 as it did 1970-2000?
That the Earth's temperature has not risen at all in the last ten years?
That NO scientist, not even the IPCC says 'we have to limit emissions to ... to ensure that temperature rise is limited to ...' ?
Another vote for Jo Nova. It seems Richard was afraid to mention her by name in case anyone went to her site and read her excellent sceptic's handbook.
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@29 Flatearther
So you're a physicist. The other night you were a "scientist" which I pointed out was a meaningless term. However, it still seems you're refusing to read the science. I asked for ten articles that provide evidence AGW isn't happening. Still waiting. You're only insight is that you'll refuse to read the things that you don't want to know the results of, or claim they dont contain any science. Funny how thousands of scientists who work in relevant fields seem to have been completely taken in.
And this is just bizarre
"As a physicist, I love CO2 and all its life giving properties"
As a cyclist, I love TV and it's full range of channels.
Not sure I'm buying your physicist line which you're using to try and give credence to your refusal to actually read any of the science.
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Maria Ashot
You haven't answered my queries from my post 87 in the last blog, so I will tepeat one of my queries.
"Do you really support the utter hypocrisy that is being displayed at COP15?"
I am wholly with you in taking steps to curb unbridled consumerism to protect the environment, BUT we must do it for the right reasons, not this nefarious climate hype!
In a recent BBC TV programme on population David Attenborough emphasised the need to limit population for a given standard of living and two of the important things to do is lift people from poverty and, above all, educate the women.
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I must admit I was sceptical about this idea of a meeting to control the weather, but I'll admit it when I'm wrong.
Only last week the North pole was melting.
One meeting at copenhagen, mesiah Obama jets in, and it's -3c with half the country under snow.
Phew, that was fast.
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Re:-
31. At 07:33am on 18 Dec 2009, MangoChutneyUKOK wrote:
"the 11th hour approaches
no surprises at COP15 then"
I think we both agreed on this one. Current status.....horse trading.
Final situation?...........a deal........of some sorts.
"PS
@TOOF
Glad you apologised for the hit on Clinton, there is no need."
Thought long and hard as to how to comment on this.
Decided to ignore it.
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I never fail to be amazed at the loyalty of the anti-AGW Lobbyists on this site.
Let me see, there was Juicy Lucy, The Lords Monckton and Lawson ("Copenhagen will fail....and a good job too", just might have to eat those words!) Then of course dear old Ian Plimer (Didn't do too well up against that guy the sceptics love to hate....Monbiot....on Aussie TV recently) And now Ladies and Gentlemen! (roll on the drums......fanfare of trumpets!) in the Blue Corner, Favorite of the AGW Sceptics, Slayer of Messengers!!!!!!!!!! We have!!!!! (More roll on drums and louder fanfare of trumpets!!!) None other than Joanne Nova....(Groan...audience leaves!!!)
Seriously guys, is this the best you can do?
You are continuously demanding "proof" "proof" "proof" and more "proof" but for 20 years the world has been waiting for the sceptics to prove the IPCC got it wrong and this is the best you can do?
Here's a bet. On the final day, the delegates at COP 15 will come up with some sort of a deal (pathetic it may be) which will show that IPCC still have their attention.
Final result.
IPCC 1 Sceptics 0
Pathetic effort on behalf of the sceptics for 20 years work. Obviously need a new coach.
Breaking news!.They have no coach, no manager either and no co-ordinated policy!Not to mention their star turns turned out to be fizzers.
So there's my bet! Any one care to take me on?
ps
I'm beginning to sound like some of the sceptics! Better get some sleep, plug in the old Walkman and listen to Kenny R singing "The Gambler"......."never count your money........
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It does not matter a jot what we do - nature has a way of dealing with climate. When the climate reaches a specific level of Co2 or whatever gases or whoever causes it there is a switch that will compensate it - in this case it is the gulf stream. When the salinity is of a certain order it will stop or slow down until it cools which it is doing right now. In severe cases ie if we have a volcanic eruption or man gets to greedy we will have an ice age quicker than expected. So if wars don't kill off millions, nature will. No I am not a doomsayer I am a realist.
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tears of our forefathers #27.
"i like quotes!!!"
"Nothing is rich but the inexhaustible wealth of nature. She shows us only surfaces, but she is a million fathoms deep."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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'I'm sure you didn't hurt her feelings, but you sure hurt my aesthetic senses. Are you a teenage boy? Have you, er, "problems" with women? Are you that nitwit who muttered the "A" word on Newsnight?'
well, i apologise to your delicate aesthetic senses. tbh though, if you don't like what i say don't read what i post and if you think i cross the line at any point, hit that 'complain about this comment' button.
however if my JOKE about Mrs Clinton was harsh what about your riposte??? kind of sounds like richards bit from the other day about denialists either being rich and white and male or dysfunctional. no probs with the finer gender here (sounds like yet more denial to me too ;) ).
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@1 and others
A lot of talk about mmgw bullies.
Viscount Monkton harassing a Female, English as a second language protester with his dodgy denier views while Pretending to be from the television.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzZUKvLJrhk&feature=related
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45:
rofl!
don't you mean lord monckton demonstrating how at least one of the protestors knew absolutely nothing except the lines we're all spoonfed by the likes of our kind host? it doesn't show anything else beyond that but it definitely shows that. i reckon his lordship has a few non-skeptics worried judging by the amount of invective directed his way by the truebelievers.
still thanks for linking to it. its worth a watch where ever your allegiances lie.
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Toof 46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBzR0-j0O0o&feature=PlayList&p=CC9DB06B247030C5&index=0&playnext=1
This is funnier. A little preachy at the end.
Not really rolling on the floor with laughter though.
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mr wilko:
funny vid, i rofled once more. a very talented chap. i rofl easily, forgive me!
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mr wilko you ever stop by this thread: my thanks. that was a great link, this is hilarious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jHe5OjAm_E&feature=PlayList&p=CC9DB06B247030C5&index=2&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL
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48 toof
No forgiveness necessary. The Nobel prize rap was funny. I kind of agree that Obama shouldn't have been given the prize for not being George Bush and beating John McCain. Although the latter is good for world peace (not having that Loon Sarah Palin in the Whitehouse), it isn't really enough. It wasn't really Obamas fault though and he seemed embarresed by it. Morgan Tsvangirai should've got it. Ill let 'juice news' off with blogger cliché George Orwells 1984 but if they mention Animal farm, I'll go off them.
The current pathetic level of snowfall is melting up here in the North by the way. Even Eurostar(17 years old) are suprised by having snow in winter because we rarely get it. I think that any snow is now a major event like being knee deep in snow was in the 1980s.
One more for DHW vs toof
Apparently its all a plot by the Communists to take over the planet.
Which side are doing the preaching? Not Ad Hominem. No problem with real sceptics with real arguments. Not just on their say so.
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Mind you, I'm surprised at the USians all claiming that Obama shouldn't have it.
As far as I can tell, no president in the HISTORY of the US deserves that honour. However, if I'd said that 3 years ago, I would have been dodging redneck bullets for the rest of my life.
But the prez is a Democrat (and half black) so that's fine.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"(see the rabid demonstrators taking it to the police and learning their lesson)."
And you've been protesting Copenhagen all along. Someone like you could be turning up and protesting AGAINST it, what with Rush Limbaugh (who recently called for some people to be EXECUTED, as if he's Al Quaida!) frothing the dittos into a frenzy over Obama's One World Order(tm). One man shot three police officers because he'd heard (from Limbaugh) that the government wanted to take his guns away.
Well, he's right now. Crims don't get guns.
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I just stumbled on to this page, and I agree I don't think this deal is going to happen. It seems like the moment is turning, and i just think odds are we won't see a deal worked out. I for one agree with your point of views though atleast wow bot someone is watching after our earth! Keep up the good stuff richard I think your views on the US are dead one too
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As I have been castigated (rightly) by xtragrumpymike2 on a different thread for raising the AGW specter, I guess I should post this here, as it relates to Copenhagen:
New data show that the balance between the airborne and the absorbed fraction of carbon dioxide has stayed approximately constant since 1850, despite emissions of carbon dioxide having risen from about 2 billion tons a year in 1850 to 35 billion tons a year now.
http://bristol.ac.uk/news/2009/6649.html
It would seem the models have got it all wrong about the planets ability to absorb CO2
/mango
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