Acropolis now?
Is there is a difference between the ownership of culture and the ownership of particular artefacts? I have been mulling this over while thinking about the significance of the opening of the new Acropolis museum in Athens on Saturday.
The structure is Greece's answer to the British argument that there is nowhere in their country to house the Elgin marbles, the sculptures taken from the Parthenon's frieze and brought to the UK, two hundred years ago.
Architect Bernard Tschumi's glass and concrete building will house the stones Greece still has as its centrepiece, in a glass gallery which is angled to complement the angle of the Parthenon temple three hundred metres above it. And plaster replicas of the stones in the British museum will sit next to those Greece has in its possession.
The British Museum is willing to lend their bit of the Elgin marbles in theory, but the Greeks have to refused to acknowledge that the British museum is the legal owner of the artefacts. It is a controversy which matters because it forces us to debate the issue of culture and globalism - even though, in the case of the Elgin marbles, it sometimes feels as though it is more akin to a school playground spat.
Where do you stand on this issue? Should the Elgin marbles go back to Greece, or stay in the British Museum? Is that even the right question?
Shouldn't the question be how do we deal with culture in a globalised world; how do we deal with monuments that have global significance?
I'm 
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I completely agree with your assessment that this situation is more akin to a school playground spat. I personally think that the marbles should be next to the Acropolis, and that the Greeks have countered the old argument that there is nowhere to house them in Athens. However, it is fair to say they are one of the star attractions at the British museum, and that there a number of issues that would obviously make them rather foolish from a practical point of view to simply give the marbles away as a gesture of goodwill. What would replace them that would attract the same amount of visitors? What would they get in return for having looked after the marbles for so long?
I've lived in Greece for a year, so I've heard the views of both Brits and Greeks on this matter. In Britain, apathy or ignorance dominates opinion: "I don't care" or a certain "finder's keepers" mentality. Playground. The British museum itself also has some rather interesting interpretations of why the marbles were lovingly cut up off the walls. One is that this protected them damage resulting from the Turkish occupation, debatable, but fair enough. The other is that this generously allows the public to see the treasures at eye-level (I wish I could remember the exact quote, but this sentiment genuinely appears in the museum's display). I'm surprised there aren't British museum officials cutting monuments down all over the world, and London, any that are at any sort of height.. this way, they would all be eye-level. Terrible argument and frankly insulting on all fronts.
The Greeks take a much keener interest in the matter than us Brits, which in my opinion is a jolly good reason why they should get their toys back. Most people are passionate about this issue. Whether this would be the same if they had the marbles already.. who knows.. but I suspect it would. However, in many ways, they are just as childish as the British. If I ever suggested that there should be some sort of dialogue, or a minor concession given to the British public or museum, they would take this as an insult, and simply say that the marbles are there's by right, and they should be returned unconditionally. The stalemate is never going to end without a serious dialogue on looking at options that will at least give both sides something. I'm not an expert on the workings of museums. I suspect that the ideal of "sharing" the marbles, 6 months here, and 6 months there would simply be impractical.. but the fact that it hasn't even been discussed seems to strike me as rather petty.. Or perhaps the Greek government would invest in some lovely casts of the monuments, and perhaps even others, like those found in the V & A. But probably the British museum wouldn't like the step down, and the Greek government the expense. Regardless of how awful those two ideas are, there must be some good one's out there, and until both sides sit down and have an adult chat about how to solve the issue.. then frankly the marbles would be better in the Louvre.
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Some pretty fantastic "typos" in that. Whoops. my favourites are a missing "from" and the classic "there's". That's what happens when you spend a few years in other countries...
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Maybe in the past there was some justification in holding on to the marbles but certainly not any more and definitely not because of economic benefits. They should go back to where they came from. We look foolish by not returning them. How would we react if the Greeks had dragged Stonehenge up to the Acropolis?
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I have not seen the marbles in person, but have been aware of the fact that the Greeks want them back for some time. I believe that the British Museum should give them back, but for this to work properly it should be part of a celebrated 'sharing of culture/artwork' engagement between the Greek and British.
I am also aware though that if the British Museum were to acquiesce to this request it may open the door for many other countries demanding things back that the 'enterprising' Brits confiscated during the centuries when we were dashing about the globe on a sort of interior decorating rampage, which could mean that a lot of the museums in London would become quite bare - not a nice thought.
Perhaps the only way forward is for the Greek government to agree that the marbles rightly belong to the Brits and for the Brits to say 'thanks very much, now that we are all chums again would you like these marbles on a sort of permanent loan for your lovely new building?' - hurrah, everyone's happy. No doubt something in the basement of the museum could take their place to attract visitors.
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Having seen the Elgin Marbles at the British Museum I think they are a fantastic asset to the UK and we should try and keep them here. Yes the Greeks have an argument for their return but if they had no been taken by Elgin, there is no guarantee that they would still be in existence at all. The British museum has preserved these artefacts for nearly 200 years. Greece' history during that time has been much more turbulent and it has taken them until now to build somewhere to house the marbels.
We should consider returning them to Greece on loan. So that the British museum is not depleted perhaps we could have an exchange whereby they send us some of the figures seen in the pictures and we send some of our artefacts.
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At the time of the removal of the Parthenon Freize and Metopes, the artefacts of Greece and Rome were hot property and status objects in British aristocratic society. They were acquired as lifestyle statements to adorn fashionable high class residences to show the owners had 'taste'. There was an collection industry which was massively destructive using influence (in the case of Greece) with corrupt officials of the then colonial power (Turkey) and often against the wishes of local people.
The British museums collection was acquired when one of these 'philhellene' aristocrats got into financial difficulties otherwise they would be private property to this day.
Finally, the Parthenon Marbles are from a religious building. The Temple of the Maiden (Pallas Athene) was built by the Athenians for the protectoress of their city. The temple was dedicated to her. We should respect the wishes of the builders and return them to her sanctuary.
I believe we owe it to her.
'wisdom you have learnt at last...' Eumenides
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The main reason I became a member at this blog is to comment on bryndlewindle's thoughts: thank you all for "helping us greeks to preserve these artefacts for nearly 200 years". Actually the fact that the rest of the Acropolis, not mentioning tne rest of the monuments of our, both greek and world, heritage remain "alive" for over 2,500 years is just a sign of greek arrogance.
Please forgive my poor english.
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Thanks Razia for your blog which I'd like to contribute to by quoting from the now deceased Melina Mercouri (fromer Cultural Minister of Greece), delivered to the Oxford Union in June 1986.
"...You must understand what the Parthenon Marbles mean to us. They are our pride. They are our sacrifices. They are our noblest symbol of excellence. They are a tribute to the democratic philosophy. They are our aspirations and our name. They are the essence of Greekness.
We are ready to say that we rule the entire Elgin enterprise as irrelevant to the present.
We say to the British government: you have kept those sculptures for almost two centuries. You have cared for them as well as you could, for which we thank you. But now in the name of fairness and morality, please give them back. I sincerely believe that such a gesture from Great Britain would ever honour your name."
Thank you
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The Acropolis was a temple built to stand eternally. Goths and first christians' looting took its more mobile artifacts but the structure was partially destroyed during an Ottoman-Venecian war were the former used the lead of the column joints for canon balls and the latter bombarded the whole rock. Had it not been for that war incident the Acropole would be there as Iktinos and Kallikratis had built it.
The last story of destruction was Lord Elgin himself. He came down to Ottoman Athens, talked to the local Pasha who showed indifference and gave permission. Then Elgin tried to find personnel but he could not find easily as local Greeks despite being tragically poor or illiterate considered it a sacrilege to touch the "ancient ones", they knew it was theirs and nobody elses. Hence, Elgin had to pay double and triple and bring workers from other places not telling them exactly what they had to do and do the job really quickly before locals (already getting cautious of the works up there) gathered and became aggressive.
The result? You see in the museum and on the temple (no matter if technically concealed). The sculptures were torn and chopped and broken off the temple in haste to be packed in the ship and leave in the... night... Broken sculptures were left on the soil scattered in pieces and only what looked good was taken. Robbers and thieves of art pieces certainly respect more the piece they steal than Lord Elgin.
That is the story behind Elgin. Go learn too the story behind the famous Aphrodite in Louvres. Even worse... the French had to kill people in the streets of the island town to get it. The hands of the statue are missing because the locals grabbed the statue from the French soldiers, the French had it tied in a rope and dropped it down (breaking the one hand) then the locals were dragging it from the other hand and one French officer mad broke the hand by hitting it with his sword. The French had to shoot at locals and kill some of them to get the statue on their ship. Still the scratches from that fight are visible.
Its not merely a matter of national importance for Greeks, it is a matter of the basics of justice. Its a matter of common-law robbery and murder, beyond destruction of art.
Read that so as to know what you are talking about...
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Please, visit the Acropolis Museum. You will then understand, all by yourself, why the marbles must be helped to reunite.
You will have no doubts at all. Most of all you, the English people, one of the most sophisticated people of all. Thank you..
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Miss Iqbal, please take note that the whole controversy is about the "MARBLES OF PARTHENON" and certainly not about "the Elgin Marbles". Why don't you name them "Phedias marbles"? It would certainly be more accurate!
Let's consider this: I'm a wealthy man and I decide to travel to Iraq or Afganistan. In cooperation with the american troops, I purchase an ancient sculpture without the consent of the locals. How would you call this sculpture?
"DimitrisPapa statue"?
It's pure logic!
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Even though, I live in the Netherlands where people don't talk about this topic, i wanted to share some thoughts with you.I am from Athens,from the area of Acropolis , coming from a family of Archaeologists.So, I literally grew up with people debating about this topic in my house.It annoys me when everyone is laughing about how unable the Greeks are to preserve and generally take good care of antiquities. On the other hand, there is some truth in this stereotypical view about Greeks been unable to organise-and-take care of stuff , in general.( I know I am Greek) But the truth is that these marbles were supposed to be in Athens and not in London, why and how its a very interesting story and we can debate for ages. What I don't get is why on earth we should care about the image or the popularity of the British Museum ?! while at the same time these things are missing from another country ...the country they were taken from at first place. Is that the problem now, how the British Museum will preserve its glory?! (with some many other exhibits...!) but the more I think about it the more I remember what a French Colleague have told me, maybe by returning the marbles to Greece other Museums in the world will have to do the same for a... number of countries...(???)
Also, for those in the UK who think its not so important, well, try to answer to a 9 year-old , who reads in the History books at school that 'this' statue and 'that' temple can be found today in the British Museum in London or in Louvre.
It is a little bit sad and unfair that many Greeks have never been there and they will never travel to London to see them.Isn't it? Sorry for the typos I am writing you while in the train!
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"In terms of heritage, our own arguments are as strong as those of Greece.
The fact that a squalid little Balkan banana republic now wants these stones back to feed its national vanity shouldn't matter a fly speck. Those stones have been bought and paid for many times over by English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish blood."
hubertgrove - what fatuous imperialistic nonsense. The thought that any of our sons and daughters would die on foreign soil, not for the cause of freedom but so we could nick some spoils of war is ridiculous.
The loss of treasures from Baghdad's museum after our last adventure on the soil of another country shows how much we care about the culture and heritage of other nations.
I'm surprised that anyone abroad, including Egypt, has anything to fill their museums with after the ransacking and plundering which has been done to fill the British Museum.
To coin a phrase from those great philosophers Midnight Oil - 'It belongs to them, we're going to give it back'.
And pleeeeasse stop calling them the 'Elgin Marbles'.
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Can't see how anybody can really plausibly argue that really important artifacts of a people's cultural history can be deliberately kept out of its ownership, just on the basis of long-past political circumstances that caused those artifacts to pass involuntarily out of their control.
Think most of my fellow Brits would probably agree it's probably fair just to give this stuff back to Greece.
Maybe the more interesting question is what Greece thinks about its ownership of artifacts and land that it seized in a similarly opportunistic manner, and still owns. I know there are Albanians, (FYRO) Macedonians and possibly some of the large number of formerly indigenous muslim population of northern Greece, that have a good few similar gripes against the Greek state. For example, the land grabs and forced population exchanges of the early 20th century, as the Greek state strengthened its power and increased its territory at the expense of other peoples, seem like more examples of the same kind of thing.
Would be more sympathetic to the Greek state if they were similarly working to redress their own wrongs.
Am sure some people would see that differently though and would love to hear comments!
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It's really interesting dr-johnson your concern about the feelings of Albanians or muslims...I would love to know what they are claiming. And I am sure you also feel very sympathetic for the egyptians,italians,chinese,arabs etc whose heritage is also "saved" in museums like THE BRITISH, THE LOUVRE, THE PERGAMON etc.
As for the FYROMIAN 's...that is another, really interesting story.It's completely different someone claiming his/her own than someone else's.But that is a very long story that the Oxford's professors (among others) have solved.
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The British Museum is reluctant to return the Elgin Marbles mainly because this will encourage other countries to take action to get their treasures returned. With all the 'loot' gone, there will be nothing much remaining in the British museum.
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This is not a political issue. This is one of the relocation of a a large percentage of a complete work of sacred architecture to its site of origin and dedication. Physically the marbles are just calcium carbonate. Aesthetically they are merely illustrative of what mankind can produce in one of its (all too brief episodes) of civic genius. Their value is not as 'art' and therefore to provide a short-lived moment of aesthetic thrill on a wet afternoon in London. They belong and have always belonged in Athens. I regard the Parthenon Frieze and the pieces wrenched from their positions with saws and hammers as if the 'Mona Lisa' had its face cut out and exhibited as a complete work. It wouldn't be the complete work. The same goes for the Parthenon Marbles. The pieces should be brought together.
London can have the copies. They are very good copies, indeed. They would fit nicely into any exhibition for visitors who wish to learn about the art of Pheidias and his colleagues. It might encourage some of the visitors to go to Athens and see the originals in their true context and environment.
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"In terms of heritage, our own arguments are as strong as those of Greece"
Please spare me.The sculptures have been in Britain's possesion for how long?? like 2 centuries.well guess what...prior to their abduction by Elgin the Marbles were in Greece for 2.3 millenia.
For 2300 years the Marbles were to be found in their rightfull place:Athens.
As a Greek living in London and having visited the British Museum three times I was disguisted by the cultural theft that I witnessed there.
Greece has answered in the best possible way and has countered any claims the British museum might have regarding safekeeping,pollution,climate,seismicity or whatever excuses they have for not returning them.
Britain has two options either stay silent and be ridiculed internationally by stuburnly refusing to return the Marbles or acknowledge that Greece is today in the position to have the Marbles back home kept in a STATE OF THE ART museum of an excellent international standard making the new museum probably the best and most modern Museum in the world.
As for the fact that allegedly the Marbles were legally taken from Greece, I should remind everyone who are ignorant that Greece proclaimed independence in 1821 from the Ottoman Empire.
Greece in 1817 was under the Ottoman yoke and was in no position to negotiate or dictate anything.From the day one of the formation of the modern Greek state we have been asking the Marbles back home and we always get the same responses..... That we are unable as a country or nation to safekeep the Marbles.
I think its time for the British Museum to wake up and be mature enough to acknoledge that the world is moving forward and so is Greece and at last return the Marbles to the rightfull heirs of Ancient Greek culture.
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Let's stop all this fatuous nationalist and multiculturalist nonsense.
I hope the British Museum does not surrender these important pieces of British history just to appease the nationalist self-esteem of Greek irredentists and the self-hate of British multiculturalists.
I mean, if we're all about returning 'sacred rocks' to 'their rightful owners', then the Greeks and their collaborators can return the islands of Lesbos, Kos and Naxos to Turkey.
See what I mean? 'They used to belong to us and we want them badly' is an argument that cuts both ways.
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Hubertgrove,
The British Museum's only argument for retention is the multicultural status of London as a global city. Silly really with cheap flights to Athens. Secondly the Parthenon Marbles are no ones property but belong to the Temple built on the Acropolis in Athens. That is where they were 'removed' from to meet a commercial collectors fashion. Caveat emptor British Museum.
It doesn't matter who controls the 'territory' of the Acropolis...that's were the Marbles belong...in the city that made them.
The rest of your arguments are just plain silly...and you know it.
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Allthough I can't see your logic (?) why only
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The marbles belong rightfully to the Acropolis and the lack of British understanding of this issue reveals that a sense of Victorian imperialism still exists.
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Allthough I can't see your logic(?) why only these 3 islands? Why not the ionian islands to Albania or Italy? Stay there where you are...in your ignorant misery...Don't forget to complain about this comment Hubertgrove
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The argument of the British Museum that they protected the marbles therefore they are eternally their rightful owners from now on, is the same with that of a thief who gets the ownership 'rightfully'' of cource but only in their eyes ,forever after the act of theft.Silly, childish, and frankly damn insulting too.As for the fate of the British Museum i would say should be the same as any other 'loot houses' around the world once discovered by the police.I doubt that any single item in that museum has been acquired with a proper license from its rightful owners, and in any case a theft is theft even if you have good intentions.As for Hubertgrove, mate i don't know were you coming from but your knowledge of local history and original descent of populations at their present territories as far as Aegean sea goes is frankly not worth even engaging with.
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I really cannot understand what all the fuss is about. The marbles were taken from Greece and there is no doubt in anybody's mind (unless you are arrogant and still thinking of the UK as a colonial master) that they should be returned to their rightful owners, the Greeks. The excuse that there was no proper place to house them has vanished. So, the British Museum should abandon its arrogance, stop trying to justify itself and do the right thing.
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Just out of interest, if you have the time and inclination, google "Lord Byron, Curse of Minerva, Elgin" and see what a contemporary to the removal of the Parthenon Marbles thought of the 'removal to a place of safety'. Shows that the the event was controversial at the time.
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Hi
At the end of the day the reality is that it was looted by the British and makes it no diffferent than all the plundering for e.g. in WWII.
It definitely should be returned to Greece and for sure the ownership belongs to them.
Perhaps they can simply agree to a 2 yrs at each location - this could be an acceptable compromise.
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Let the Greeks have back their sculptures with two provisos: 1) The stones come back to the British Museum for an exhibition every 10 or 20 years, and 2) They pay a contribution towards the historic cost of keeping them. Let's not forget the British Museum does not charge an entrance fee, whereas Greek museums do.
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The British Museum was claiming that the Greeks had no place to host the Parthenon marbles. So, they were forced to pay millions of Euros to create a new museum which would host the marbles of Acropolis and Parthenon. The opening of this museum is today in full glory. Now the British museum claims that the Parthenon marbles need to stay in London because visitors from all over the world can see them. So, they can in the place of their birth ATHENS!! next to the rest of the Acropolis and Parthenon statues and marbles.
As a Greek myself I feel insulted by the British Museum continuing to keep something that does not belong to them and even the British people in their majority believe they should be returned to Greece. When someone takes something to safe keeping in times of need (if we assume that Elgin took the marbles to safe keep them when Greece was under the Ottoman years) he (now the British museum) returns them when the danger is gone (as Greece is now a safe country capable of looking after herself). This is called having morals. I would not want to think that British people have not got any left!!! How would British people feel if we remove and do not return to them Big Ben? We can actually put this in the new Acropolis museum because visitors from all over the world can see it!!! Athens is such a touristic place after all....
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Im a British citizen living in Athens, with a Greek partner. I have many Greek friends and have got to know the culture and history of the country quite well. Of all the arguments for and against the return of the marbles from the British museum, Ive have heard many good points from both sides. However, the fact remains that Greece is making a great deal of effort to establish its cultural identity and improve its perception abroad after many years of turbulent history, consisting of foreign rule, Nazi invasion and military dictatorship. Greece is a nation full of very highly qualified academics, scientists and professionals and has had more than its fair share of bad breaks. They are a proud nation, and rightly so. Whatever way you look at this, its a positive move towards re-establishing its cultural identity and putting Athens back on the world archaeological map, where it should be. Greece, like most countries is far from perfect and has its own problems. Stop it with the negative, confrontational comment, its boring, outdated and backwards. Applaud them instead as its the entire worlds heritage. In many ways we will all benefit from this kind of work to understand the world we now live in with a greater sense of clarity.
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Dear amonkeyinthesun,
Just THANK YOU !!!
Greece and Greeks have offered so many things to this world and it feels bad that we have to defend ourselves in so many ways in modern history. We have been through difficult times in our modern history and as you say we are indeed trying to re-establish our position. We are only 10 million people living in the country (and about 5 outside). Many of the things people in this world know is because Greeks studied them in the past. Respect that as we respect Chinese and Egyptian history and knowledge. We are a proud country, proud of our history and taking this away from us will only make the rest of the world disable as the Greek history is one of the greatest in this world !
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Do all Roman coins belong to italy? Let us be a little clear about the history. The Marbles were built by the city-state Athens. This city-state was conquered first by the Spartans (the Athenians were Ionians, the Spartans Dorians - two completely different migrations of people from the north. Subsequently Athens was controlled for around 1500 years by the Roman empire and after the fall of Constantinopolis by the Ottomans. When Elgin purchased the marbles, the Ottomans had not just walked into Athens and looted it - They had been there for hundreds of years. After the Ottomans were thrown out, Otto of Bavaria was invited to be King of Greece. It was he who tried to give the local population national identity. He established the Capital at Athens - before it was more of a shanty town. He excavated the Parthenon and it is from this time that the marbles were seen as a symbol of Greek national identity. Had the Athenians objected to Roman rule, then the marbles would not exist - their fate would have been the same as Carthage and Corinth - both completely destroyed in the middle of the 2nd Century BC.
To get back to the original question, do all Roman coins belong to Italy. I would say no. As for the Marbles, these were made before there was a "Greece". The Hellenistic period starts after the death of Alexander, with Ptolemy in Egypt, Seleucus in Syria and Demetrius trying to get everything else. during the years before the Roman Conquest, there was much upheaval in the greek world - not about who controlled Attica and the Peloponnese, but more about the pretenders to the throne of Macedon.
Finally, even at the time of their manufacture, there was a priciple of "land taken by the spear"-this actually refers to military conquest.
There is even a greek word for it. We must always remember that the parthenon was built with wealth looted from the Delian League.
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There is always the right time for things to happen.
Time has come for the Parthenon marbles to return to their home.
Every nation on earth has its own abilities and achievements to demonstrate and to be proud of. And they should freely do.
Globalized art world, as you write dear Razia, does not mean to gather art from all over the world and put it in exhibition at British museum.
It means to "take" the spirit and meaning of all these artistic creations and try to get out the inspiration, wisdom and beauty that they hide.
And to do that in full extension, you need to see and feel them at their natural place.
The natural place for these marbles is Athens. There you could very easily visit them, and acquire their myth and spirit.
And I would like to ask the directors of the B.M. to make a few days visit in Acropolis of Athens, to see the new museum, to walk under Parthenon, to watch one performance at the ancient theater there... and then just to ask themselves.. to hear their logic.. to feel their heart beats..
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I am glad to see that most comments on this post are for the return of the marbles that were so brutally removed, literally stripped off of a religious monument that is the Parthenon.
To bryndlewindle #5
You've said that "if they had no been taken by Elgin, there is no guarantee that they would still be in existence at all". However, the mere fact that there are now several pieces on display at the new museum (and better preserved than those in the BM) disproves your hypothesis.
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I trust that the Greeks aren't being rather hypocritical, and in their museums there is absolutly no articles that have come from other countries?
I'd rather doubt that.
That's the whole point of having museum collections all over the world - to bring the world to the people.
The Elgin Marbles must stay in the UK. It would set the trend to return them, and would empty world museums.
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Hallo AndyBugden,
you seem to know the history facts quite well...however with your approach you are spotting the tree but missing the forest..ancient roman or Greek coins can not be compared to the stolen marbles from the Partnenon..there were thousands of coins, there is only ONE Parthenon!!..It is an eternal symbol for the Greek nation, for the majority of the British people the marbles at the British museum are just some ancient stones representing one ancient civilization among the many exhibited...I just see some people from the UK being plainly stubborn, evidently with their pride hurt with the thought that they might loose a memory of their past imperial glory when they were looting the world at will...
And about national identity amongst ancient Greeks and its time of formation that you question...this was evident even in Homer's epics and Herodotus works, and in the sharing of common religious, cultural and sporting events. They spoke the same language and worshiped the same gods -with slight local variations which is evident in all countries e.g. different accents throughout the UK. And talking about national identity at that time back in history by using today's definitions and understandings is quite irrelevant and inappropriate. At what point in time was "England" made? Maybe whatever is excavated in England e.g. Roman towns, Celtic artifacts etc..and belongs to a time prior than that does not belong to you as well...
In anyhow, whatever issues of morality or historical facts are raised, the marbles must be returned back home, where they belong.
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To Tengsted #37
To answer your question: in Greek museums there are absolutly no articles that have come from other countries
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The 'Elgin Marbles' simply must be returned now that there is a proper place in Athens to preserve them and to display them to their best advantage. How small-minded and ridiculous we will look when the new museum opens and there are gaps in the otherwise awe-inspiring display of the marbles in their original formation. How would we feel if someone came along and took away bits of, say, the Royal Albert Hall and refused to return them? It would be an act of cultural vandalism to continue to hang on to them; conversely, it would be an act of admirable right-thinking and generosity to return them. International ridicule or world-wide respect? That's the British Museum's choice.
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Tengsted,
Personally, I don't recall having seen foreign ancient articles in Greek museums, perhaps I am wrong but in such case they would represent an extremely small percentage on the total, perhaps donations from personal collections. Greece never looted foreign archeological sites, on the contrary it was a victim..there are thousands of ancient Greek articles in museums all around the world..it is other countries that need foreign articles to fill in gaps of hundreds/ thousands of years of history when they were virtually non-existent or have nothing to display for..
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I would like to echo the sentiments of monkeyinthesun. I, too, am English living in Greece with a Greek partner. I'm no authority on exactly what happened when Elgin stole the marbles, so I was very interested to read the various comments of how the marbles were partially destroyed in order to be removed and all the other details. I agree that we should stop calling them the Elgin marbles, and that the British Museum's argument about having protected the marbles is invalid.How come other parts of the Acropolis have remained intact over those 200 years? There's no doubt that the marbles should be returned. The idea that they should be shared is unbelievable! Just to imagine removing them even once from the British Museum to the new Acropolis museum defies description! Could such an undertaking be repeated every two years? Out of the question - they belong in Athens and that's where they should stay.
As a footnote to the remarks about what Greece should give back to other countries. I'm just reading Bruce Clark's Twice A Stranger and am staggered to read how in 1923 "the powers that were" decided in the Treaty of Lausanne that a population exchange should take place in order to avoid further conflict in the Balkans. Turks living in Greece were uprooted from their homes and forced to return to Turkey. Similarly Greeks from many areas of Turkey were brutally exiled to Greece,in many cases. In other words, throughout history, the Big Powers have decreed events, without a thought for humanity. So at a later date , can we say that either party owes something to the other? Circumstances may have been beyond the control of their governments. Anyway, what can be done to shame the British Museum into giving back the marbles?
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A lot of time, effort and investment has been made to preserve the marbles to the highest standard and quality and the British Museum is the world leader in the field of preservation.
The British Museum is also a free access institution, they do not and have not profited from these marbles. So, despite the enormous investment made in preserving this, why should they just be 'given' back?
Finally, from what I understand, the new museum (grotesquely looking as it is - my opinion only) has been built on top of ruins that were destroyed during construction.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Reconciliation is a wonderful thing, however, these arguments are just a small number of a very long list of reasons why the marbles will never go back to Greece.
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@browndeejaykay #42
Bruce Clark's "Twice A Stranger": excellent book
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39. At 9:01pm on 20 Jun 2009, PARRISIA_GREECE wrote:
To Tengsted #37
To answer your question: in Greek museums there are absolutly no articles that have come from other countries
Not quite true, the Athens museum holds one of the finest collections of Egtptian art in the world. Perhaps after they have handed this back to Egypt we should talk again?
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To "bonzepeach" at #45 :
Excellent idea..! I think all Greeks would agree totally with you.. to buy the marbles back with EU funds (besides UK is one of the biggest contributor, so actually dear Bonze, YOU will pay also)
But it is not right to call Greeks "the beggars of Europe" .. besides, even "Europe", the name originates from the Greek mythology ("Europa", she was a Princess taken by Zeus to Creta island)
funny eh?? I bet you did not know that!
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@46
Thank you. My point entirely.
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to the_luminari
trust me, countries such as Egypt, Greece and Italy would definitely not mind a global exchange of all archeological findings provided they got their own back..they would actually be flooded with artifacts...
Greece has not asked for the return of its stolen ancient articles in general. We do realize the cultural importance of large metropolitan museums throughout the world exhibiting articles from all great civilizations. This is a totally different issue...the rationale has been explained quite thoroughly in previous comments made..but some people from the UK do not seem to understand..I guess there will always be Elgins out there but hopefully the Byrons will prevail !!
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Clearly there are strong arguments on both sides but maybe, considering the uniqueness of these artefacts, the Greeks and the BM could agree a form of 'Joint Stewardship" of the marbles and agree to discuss 'legal ownership' at a future as yet unspecified date. As part of the stewardship arrangement, exact replicas could be made, and each country could agree to house half the originals for a period of time, then exchange halves, and so on.
Visitors in both countries would have the exact same opportunity to experience the sculptures.....and in the two places in the world that they are most strongly associated with. Ultimately in time, this would be seen as a non controversial arrangement that satisfies most people.
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To "Tengsted" at #48 & "the_luminary" at #46 :
You have limited knowledge on the story behind the existence of Egyptian art in the Greek Archeological Museum :
The Egyptian Collection of the Athens Museum was a donation. At the same time, it exists Greek-Roman Museum in the city of Alexandria (Egypt) with Greek Collection again in the form of donation and also from excavations at the surrounding area which in the ancient years was also inhabited for a big period of time by ancient greeks.
Everything is done absolutely legally, in cooperation of museums, ministries of culture and archeologists.
There is mutual respect of Egyptian and Greek archeologists as their nations both share a great piece in ancient history.
Do not confuse and compare completely irrelevant things just to make an impression.
Do more research.
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To the British Museum and to all the pro-Elgins:
The Parthenon marbles in question are NOT antiquities sold by their lawful owners, but parts of one of the most important and beautiful buildings ever built, sold by the Ottoman invader to Lord Elgin.
This is called *looting* of an invaded country, not a lawful sale.
It is as if the Nazis had sold parts of the Louvre to Japan in 1940. France would now ask Tokyo to return them - and righteously so.
The marbles belong to Greece. Return them where they belong.
PS: to hubertgrove #20:
Can you explain us how exactly are these marbles "important pieces of British history"? I thought they were part of the Greek one.
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51. At 10:41pm on 20 Jun 2009, cdk-athens wrote:
To "Tengsted" at #48 & "the_luminary" at #46 :
You have limited knowledge on the story behind the existence of Egyptian art in the Greek Archeological Museum :
Not true, they are principally the collections of Ioannis Dimitriou and of Alexandros Rostovi. Whilst Egypt did donate some mummies (9) in 1893 this is only a minor part of the currently held collection of over 6,000 items.
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to the_luminary
wow impressed!!..what in-depth knowledge!! you might even be working for the British Museum...being an expert and having such one-sided and simple views..quite sad..
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I am a regular reader of BBC, particularly because of the quality of their stories and its history of comprehensive and impartial reporting. That's why I was very surprised and disappointed when I saw that, on the main story about the new museum, with extensive coverage on the matter of the Elgin sculptures, it is only mentioned that the marbles were 'sold to the British museum' in 1817. Not a single word about the fact that they were originally 'given away' to Elgin (after a sultan decree whose existence was doubted even at the time and after irrevocable damage done to the monument in the process) by the Ottoman Empire, a foreign oppressive regime, in decline and desperate for resources, overthrown by the Greeks just some years later. Omitting this very important fact is like implying: it is the same Greeks who sold the items 200 years ago and now just changed their minds and want them back.
But the question is not just about ownership. These particular sculptures are *part of a building* and comparing them to other artefacts like jewellery, pottery, coins (especially the latter, which were a means of trade and were *supposed* to be found everywhere in the world) is absurd and ridiculous. They belong to the area and to the monument, they were cut down in a brutal and in a culturally and artistically irrespectful manner, they have to be returned to their original *place*. The question of ownership is still valid, but is secondary. The fact that there is an independent nation that speaks the same language and lives on the same area as the ancient Greeks and wants the marbles returned, is also secondary, even thought it can definitely support this demand.
To AndyBugden: A little off-topic, but I am shocked by the remarks about how a Bavarian king, a puppet of the foreign powers who first came to Greece 11 years after the Greek revolution, 'shaped' our national identity. You definitely do not 'know the history facts well', contrary to someone's comment. Greek people (like many other oppressed nations of the Ottoman Empire) wrote texts in Greek about a free Greek homeland and died for this idea by the thousands, long before the 1821 revolution, so a little respect for them also wouldn't hurt.
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51. At 10:41pm on 20 Jun 2009, cdk-athens wrote:
To "Tengsted" at #48 & "the_luminary" at #46 :
For example... http://www.culture.gr/h/4/eh430.jsp?obj_id=4510
Of note, Alexandria was founded 340 B.C, this statue is dated 700 B.C.
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54. At 10:58pm on 20 Jun 2009, TaPantaOla wrote:
to the_luminary
wow impressed!!..what in-depth knowledge!! you might even be working for the British Museum...being an expert and having such one-sided and simple views..quite sad..
Great response, I will not lose sleep arguing this one....
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at #53 (and please forgive me all that I come again with the same subject)
Dear Luminary,
read again my previous post.
EVERYTHING was done in warm cooperation with the Egyptian authorities..
The matching donation of mummies simply proves it.
Bear in mind that at the time these donations were done to Greece, the same time opened the Greek Museum in Alexandria..
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Likewise..no sense into talking to a brick wall..
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Ah, 'hubertgrove' the old 'finders, keepers' argument, eh ?
That worked well enough in the schoolyard, but hanging on to stuff which isn't really yours for a very long time, in the hope that eventually the other side will get tired isn't really a recipe for a peaceful world - just look at the rest of the middle east...
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It is so sad to read the comments of some Brits claiming their right on something that was clearly stolen from the Greeks 200 years ago.
Idea: next time Brits should steal from a less touristic country. This one will have > 13 million people visiting the Athens museum every year. 13 million visitors will be able to see what the Brits did to the Parthenon every year. Clearly, a national embarrassment.
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58. At 11:09pm on 20 Jun 2009, cdk-athens wrote:
at #53 (and please forgive me all that I come again with the same subject)
Dear Luminary,
read again my previous post.
EVERYTHING was done in warm cooperation with the Egyptian authorities..
The matching donation of mummies simply proves it.
Bear in mind that at the time these donations were done to Greece, the same time opened the Greek Museum in Alexandria..
Err no, Ioannis Dimitriou (1880)and of Alexandros Rostovi (1904) were private collectors and had nothing to do with the mummy donation (1893) or any agreement between Greece and Egypt, in fact they operated several decades apart. As you say the Greco-Roman museum was opened in 1892 and the exchange of artifacts was nothing to do with the listed collectors.
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59. At 11:10pm on 20 Jun 2009, TaPantaOla wrote:
Likewise..no sense into talking to a brick wall..
You're not really providing anything useful here are you?
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In response, perhaps I could provide something useful if from your side you provided something meaningful...talking about a single collection and placing the whole debate around this issue (which isn't even an issue between Egypt and Greece) alone is quite absurd...
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64. At 11:31pm on 20 Jun 2009, TaPantaOla wrote:
In response, perhaps I could provide something useful if from your side you provided something meaningful...talking about a single collection and placing the whole debate around this issue (which isn't even an issue between Egypt and Greece) alone is quite absurd...
No it's the basis of who can ask for artifacts to be returned and why. Should Greece repatriate all the objects it curently holds that were taken via private collectors to Egypt if asked? You'll say yes of course but would the Athens Museum say likewise. The statuette noted above that was 'obtained' by Ioannis Dimitriou is the only one of Takushit in existence.
Does Greece not hold a moral obligation to return this now regardless. Perhaps it should and it may strenghten it's hand in any future negotiation, I suspect it won't though?
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I first saw the Marbles in London as a child in the austere days of the late 50's. The Duveen Gallery was virtually empty. The sculptures were like nothing I had ever seen before. We had no TVs or many colour print coffee table books. It was a cold day. They inspired me.
The 'Marbles' are part of a building. A sacred space...a temenos. Not art in the modern sense, but a celebration of community..the great Panathenaic Festival. They represent a procession to present the Maiden with her new robe on behalf of the city. The whole community, young and old, men and women, united. At present, due to the intransigence of a very few, the procession is fractured. I, for one, will celebrate with the people of Greece when they are eventually returned. It will be a great day and I mean to be there when it happens, G-d willing.
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Ok so your position is based on moral grounds..I see..I don't know anything about the Egyptian collection that you are talking about but I take your word on it..interestingly enough, you seem to know quite a lot...
You keep forgetting something...England has nothing to be returned back to it, nothing was stolen from England, the empire only stole..so talking about moral obligations of others with the British Museum packed with the riches of all the ancient world is at least hypocritical...
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66. At 11:52pm on 20 Jun 2009, blefuscu wrote:
The 'Marbles' are part of a building. A sacred space...a temenos.
But the building is not being restored is it?
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67. At 00:00am on 21 Jun 2009, TaPantaOla wrote:
Ok so your position is based on moral grounds..I see..I don't know anything about the Egyptian collection that you are talking about but I take your word on it..interestingly enough, you seem to know quite a lot...
You keep forgetting something...England has nothing to be returned back to it, nothing was stolen from England, the empire only stole..so talking about moral obligations of others with the British Museum packed with the riches of all the ancient world is at least hypocritical...
Not really, perhaps Greece should set the ball rolling if this is what it wants..... Or perhaps it doesn't?
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Well if Egypt does make a demand I can not predict the outcome but I am pretty confident we would have a much more positive and reasonable approach than the British Museum..there is common understanding between countries with great ancient civilizations which have been systematically looted of their ancient treasures by former imperialistic powers...you can expect understanding between victims, in regards to perpetrators it seems not the case...
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The Building is not being restored because, despite our best knowledge, it cannot and should not be done. It is regarded as thoroughly undesirable, by the archaeological and art historical community, that this should be done. Some awful damage has been done to sites (Knossos by Arthur Evans)or in Egypt where this has been attempted. The wire brushes used by the curators in the late '30s destroyed the upper millimeter of the marbles in a misguided attempt to 'brighten them up' because of the corrosive effect of the pre-Clean Air Act of 1953 London environment. (London smelt and looked like an ash tray in those days with 3 million smokey coal fires and masses of polluting works and power stations such as Bankside.)
My belief is that the frieze is an entirety; only to be understood and appreciated as such. It is a religious work made of marble from Pentellicon(Hill to the NE of Athens), conceived and executed in Athens by Athenians (and the resident aliens and islanders--all Hellenes) erected in a location (in Athens), surrounded by the hills of Athens..the Pnyx, Lycobettos. ie they have a place and a context.
All in all, they are the possession of all mankind...in Athens.
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TaPantaOla,
We look at Greek Philosophy and its main theme is absolutes - if an argument is correct then it must be correct in all cases. Let us look at the arguments for:
1 it is a symbol of the Greek Nation. The Modern Greece dates back as far is the mid 19th Century. Otto of Bavaria was king (yes he was German!) He wanted to give Greece - a new country - a sense of national identity. This is why he established the capital at Athens which was at the time little more than a shanty town (population around 4000)
The fact is that The Parthenon (Maiden's temple) is a temple to Athene built to celebrate the dominance of the Athenian people. At the time there were two competing tribes dominating Greece, The Dorians and the Ionians. The Dorians actually diplaced the Ionians and they migrated across the sea to the islands and modern day Turkey. Only in Attica did they remain - specifically Athens. Linguistics backs this up. The Dorian language is North western in nature, Attic Greek is linked with Ionic. These two distinct tribes were frequently at war with each other. The Parthenon does not represent Greece, but only Athens some 2500 years ago. It would be a bit like calling the Stone of Scone a symbol of Britain.
After its defeat by Sparta, Athens loses its dominance in the greek world and is controlled by Macedon, Corinth, the Roman Empire and then the Ottomans. So until the formation of Greece in the 1830s, Athens was not controlled by the Greeks for roughly 2000 years.
2 The Ottomans had no right to sell the marbles as they belonged to Greece.
Like I said above for 2000 years Athens was not controlled by itself or the Greeks.
3 Elgin's paperwork was not in order.
there is the Firman, presented by Elgin as proof. This was a translated copy in Italian from the original Arabic. The translated copy was necessary to move the goods and Italian was the language of convenience - particularly if you look at the sea route. The fact that the original has not been produced does not mean it did not exist - after all absence of evidence is not evidence of Absense. Elgin was able to strip the Parthenon and export the Marbles - a big undertaking and one which would not have gone unnoticed by the authorities.
4 The marbles were looted - much in the same way the nazi's looted.
The nazis looted much in their few years in charge. But like I said - Greece as we know it now had been under ottoman control for hundreds of years and before that by the Roman empire for 1500 years. This is a totally different case than the holocaust etc.
In addition the building of the Parthenon was a direct result of loot! As you will know Athens was razed by the Persians in 480 BC. In 478 The Delian league was set up in much the same way as Nato after the war - As a defence against the agressors. The league was made up of Ionian and Aeolian states. Athens became the Hegemon. Money, ships and troops were raised by members for the defence of all. Athens needed rebuilding and in 454 Pericles moved the treasury of the league from Delos to Athens. The money which was there for defence of the league was used by Pericles to build the Parthenon and he didn't just stop at the Parthenon. Moreover, when states tried to secede from the league, Athens would attack them, kill the leaders, loot them and in some cases enslave them. Can you imagine the USA acting in this way to Nato members?
4 It is a symbol of Athens and Democracy and Freedom
Well we have already seen what Athenian freedom means. Let's look at Athenian Democracy. It did not develop as some grand means of freeing the ordinary person and giving the power to the People. It became increasingly necessary for social cohesion with the emergence of the merchant classes in the latter part of the 6th Century to make some changes to the government. Begun by Solon and developed by Cleisthenes it looked good on paper, but it ensured 1 thing in practice - the continuing control of the Aristocracy. The real power was still held by the Aristocracy. We can see simple proof in the reality. We can look simply at Pericles - what democratic leader can stay in power for so many decades. If you were an ordinary person and you tried to rock the politic boat, you would be swiftly removed. In fact, despite the racism, the Spartans actually had something more akin to democracy than the Athenians and they were millenia ahead in terms of women's rights.
5 The Elgin marbles should be housed together with the Athenian Marbles
So why dont the Greek government send theirs to the British Museum? I know this is a ridiculous argument but logically it is equal to the Elgins going to Greece. At present in Greece you have casts of the Elgins. In the British Museum you have a world collecton of different heritages and you can see the influences all in one place - not only that its free as well!
To me there is only 1 argument that works for the return of the marbles and that would be restoration of the Parthenon. I would think that the British Museum would give them up for that. Logically it matters not which museum they are in, but there can be only 1 Parthenon.
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To nikos_engo
I might know a little more about Greek history than you think
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Have to disagree with elements of #72. Sorry to be pedantic.
Your summary of the history of Ionian/Dorian rivalry and of the fate of Athens after the defeat of 404BC is just plain wrong. There was no tribal warfare in the 5th and 4th century Greek world. Athens had Dorian cities (Corcyra) and Sparta had Ionian/Aeolian allies. Interests and trade rivalries played a role but ...and this was Sparta's concern... Athens supported democracies (like herself) and Sparta tended to back oligarchies. The people of the Aegean supported Athens, the oligarchs most decidedly did not.
After the war Athens recovered (Sparta would not have dared damage the Parthenon... very superstitious lot in a Laconic kind of way). For 600 years Athens was premier cultural centre for Macedonians, Romans ..the place to send privileged youth to round off their education. Roman writers extolled the purity of the Attic tongue.
Rome morphed into the Eastern (we call it the Byzantine) empire around 450ad. Athens was part of this 1000 year culture.
Disaster struck finally in 1453. The Turks.
Athens was a shanty in the late 18th Century. Greece had been under a brutal regime which tried and failed to extinguish Christianity (by massacre and kidnapping children). Not one of Islams finer moments.
PS A world collection of different heritages. ie visit one rather dated museum for one afternoon and you understand world heritage. It takes a lifetime to even start doing that and the British Museum, for all its worthiness, is as outdated in its practice as London Zoo was when I was a boy with animals in cages. You don't understand what you call 'different heritages' by cramming them into one building. How Victorian!
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I believe that the Greek Republic has not claims on the Elgin Marbles. They were saved by Lord Elgin well before Greece was even an independent country. Only today, that modern day Greece is able to provide the facilities to host these treasures with the assistance of the European Union, can one credibly believe that Greece could provide a safe home for the former Parthenon frieze.
The United Kingdom, and in particular the British Museum, has provided a safe home for these treasures for 200 years.
Furthermore, I believe the Greek Republic believes it is the modern-day incarnation of the Ancient Greek Culture, something I refute completely as a Western European. It was Western Europe (England, France, Italy, Germay and many other samller countries) who upheld Greek culture during the dark ages and I don't recognize modern Greece's claim to this very European inheritance.
Also, I believe the British Museum is much better qualified to take care of these treasures than anybody in Greece.
Let's put an end to this futile discussion and keep them where they are.
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blefuscu,
Forgive my generalisations. Generally Athens was allied to Ionians - this caused the persian wars and ultimately the establishment of the Delian League. Of course there were some crossovers. Corcyra was Doric and it did rebel against Athens - no need for me to tell you what happened next. Although Sparta and Athens cooperated against common enemies, there was still rivalry between them and my view is that this is as much racial as anything else.
Constantinopolis was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire and indeed did become Byzantium. The Eastern Empire did fall mid 15th century. You misunderstand the main point i was trying to get across. If you are to be a nation state, the first test is to protect your borders.
Finally, the best examples of Greek architecture are to be found on the colonies - such as sicily.
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AndyBurgen, what an absolute waste of knowledge! You seem to have studied the Greek Civilization- "seem" being the operative word here. If you had learnt anything through your studies about all the things my ancestors stood for, you would have been embarrassed by your own views.
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So they want to lend them the marbles if they aknowlegde its british property???
The best solution is the other way round! The british should aknowledge its greek property and the greeks then agree to lend them some marbles!
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As a Greek, I would like to thank Razia Iqbal for giving people the opportunity to have this exchange. And another big Thank You to all those who took the time to offer their support to this ecumenical issue of the return of the Parthenon Marbles to Athens. Every good thought counts.
And a little note to all my fellow Greeks: don't worry you guys, the return is inevitable, we got the gods on our side- quite literally! *winks*
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Assuming that the Elgin Marbles were bought 200 years ago then the Greeks will have to pay to have them back. Seems to me that there is a move by various people to steal from legitimate owners, and 200 years seems to be sufficient time to prove legitimacy, therefore the Greeks should make a proper offer based on todays values. I supose that next the Egyptions will want all their artifacts back?
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The Greeks never received money for them...they never would have sold them, the marbles were stolen, they were carved out using saws!!...Elgin made his deal secretly with the TURKS, another colonial power back them occupying the whole Balkans. The Turks did not care about the cultural heritage of other peoples and tried to make some money, the same applies during their occupation of Egypt...how much clearer should this point be made??
to Andyburgen...Since you know so much about history you probably also know that one of the "great" symbols of England "Richard the Lionheart" actually considered himself French, avoided staying in England as much as possible and never spoke a word in English...you claim to know historical facts but you can not in-depth knowledge of history unless you are open-minded enough...I could discuss each of your points made, even making relevant comparisons where possible to english history but it would make no sense since your simplified interpretation of historical facts is irrelevant in this discussion and simply diverts the discussion from the main issue
I am quite stunned by the sheer colonial audacity and ignorance lingering which is still displayed (in the year 2009) by some in this forum still viewing the world as the British playground and ancient cultural heritage of other nations as safari trophies. In today's multi-cultural UK with its Islamic population constantly rising, high proportion of mixed interracial marriages, with millions of people having British passports but not identifying themselves in no way with the British past and imperial rule but rather with those that were subdued, many not even speaking english- see how the english cricket team was welcomed with booing a few days ago at Lord's by the "home" crowd at the "house of cricket"..to express such views is simply regressive and dangerous for your country's sake first of all...
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Globalized has in effect replaced the word "colonialized." Lets drop the euphamisms. If the intent is to present the Parthenon marbles in a so called global cultural platform, let the British Museum be no longer called "British" and let it be a world heritage site outside the control of the UK and in the hands of the Greeks, Egyptians, Italians... With the return of this great Greek heritage, the shame long associated with the looting of great cultures can begin to wash away...and the thievery and thuggery of past colonial powers be put right.
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Well dear people I read many arguments and many of them were really good from both sides but I still believe that the marbles belong to the building. NOT to the grieks british or any other nation but to the building itself.
1. Antiquities exist all over the world and they r preserved by the individual countries as good as anywhere else so the BM can not claim the expertise in preservetion. Organizing receptions in a museum like the BM does is not after all the best way to preserve antiquities.
2. The absurdity of the poor excuse that let Greece pay to BM for the marbles marks the difference. Greeks would never sell them even beeing a "beggar state" cause its a matter of respect to their past.
3. Greece is a "beggar state" well I bet UK would also be the same if it was looted and plandered by wars over many years and didnt have its colonies to loot. I would accept the argument give Naxos and some other islands back to Turkey if UK was to give back all the money and artifacts to the states from where they were looted from.
4. BM can be visited by people from all over the world. Are the marbles the only reason people visit London? Then that must be a really poor city. Are the marbles of Parthenon the crown of British civilization and therefor people visit the city? On the other hand the visitors in Athens go to see the Parthenon as main attraction. They go there to walk on the streets that Plato, Socrates and Perikles walked. Where democracy, philosophy and sciences flurished. Is it fair to say to those people "to be continued in the BM" as if this was a TV serie?
5.Has ever anyone thought outside the BM how many people would like to see all those antiquities in their natural environment?
6. Has anyone thought that BM or any other museum that witholds illegaly antiquities deprive the countries of origine from the tourists interested to see them? How absurd does the argument of "begar state" now sounds? If Greece had more tourists then she would ask for less money and thas European states would have to give less. So keeping the marbles in UK doesnt improve the economic situation in Greece.
7. The gap in the BM can be easily filled by other Greek antiquities as the greek minister of culture said yesterday.
8. Daily telegraph a well respected newspaper in UK wrote that Mr Baroso didnt visit Athens yesterday. Thats a lie!!! Not only he visited the museum but he also made speach asking for the return of the marbles.
9. Roman coins and parthenon.Roman coins are movable objects, Parthenon isnt.
10. Elgin showed the biggest disrespect on this monument than any other conqueror did. He mutilated Parthenon. Parthenon marbles are not heads and tails of horses not heads and legs and arms of people. The marbles tells us a story of galandry and chivallery, a story of excellence of the human mind and the human inginuity. Nobody can understand that by seeing bits and pieces scattered around the world. Nobody can say to the common people "well here we have the half of it, if you have the time and above all the money make another trip to Greece to see the rest cause back in 1816 Lord Elgin couldnt transfer the whole monument in London".
11. British people are more than the childish behavior of the BM. They are polite and fair and thats why their majority wants the marbles return to its rightfull owner "The Parthenon" so all the world can admire it in its whole majestic presence.
12. The world monuments are not coins or pieces of land they are the expretion of the human spirit and they can only be seen where they were mend to be.
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To Luminaty regarding Egyptian collection,
Dimitriou and Rostovich were both Egyptian citizens at the time.
Dimitriou made his donation (artifacts in 1890 and then coins 1898) and at the same period helped to built (1895) and was life-time supporter of the Greek Museum there. He was a very honorable member of Egyptian society and died in Egypt. He was in continues close relationship with the Egyptian Archaeological society (he was also an archaeologist himself, apart being a manufacturer/businessman). He helped and took part in many excavations in Egypt, working together with his Egyptian colleagues.
The Egyptian Collection in Athens Museum is actually quite small and takes only two rooms of the whole museum (have you ever visited it?).
The donations to the Greek State of the Egyptian collection was done under the willing and generous approval of the Egyptian State, which additionally contributed with mummies.
Do not try to misinterpret the facts!!
Throughout the years and until today, there is a very close exchange of study and knowledge between the Egyptians and Greek Archaeological societies.
Never the Egyptian State has formed any kind of complaint or request for these artifacts and coins.
You can not even compare this case with the marbles of Parthenon. It is completely irrelevant.
The Marbles were taken by force and at a time when there was occupation under the Ottoman Empire.
Also, Lord Elgin, in the hurrying process to remove them (for the fear of local people, who even under the Ottoman occupation, were alerte and tried with all their powers to stop this), he conducted huge damage. In many cases he forcibly took just a leg or the head or other parts of the body, as all these were sculptured in big rocks, part of the building and were very difficult to safely remove at a very short time.. so he literally looted the place. It is a big shame to do that, it is a profound thievery.
I want to ask you to visit the new Museum in Athens, or B.M. and to share then with us your feelings by looking at headless body in Athens and then looking at the head-only exhibit in London.
enough said.
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Stolen goods should be returned to the owner, no matter how much the thief can argue that the stolen goods are his and that the previous owner didn´t appreciate them to the thief´s liking. I would suggest an ultimatum to the BM and the UK government, resulting in cultural embargos (For instance suspension from UEFA, FIFA and the IOC) in case of non compliance. Time to set things straight guys, 21st century, remember?
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Against all BM 'arguments' & declarations given by some 'patrons' and weeping colonialists (and crypto-afrocentrists synaesthetresses!) who gathered here and there, with BBCs own words:
1. Saturday, 8 November 2008 : Vatican sends back Parthenon head
2. Friday, 24 October 2008 : Italy returns Parthenon fragment
3. Thursday, 25 September 2008 : Italy returns marble to Greece
4. Friday, 10 November 2006 : Swede gives back Acropolis marble
5. Tuesday, 24 October 2006 : The British Museum (BM) has denied that it tried to persuade a German university not to return a fragment of the Parthenon sculptures to Athens. (When in 2006 a smaller fragment of the Parthenon frieze - a man's heel - was returned to Athens by the University of Heidelberg in Germany)
The removal of the marbles was a dishonorable act of vandalism", Robin Cook (14 January, 2004)
PS: xoser73,
In the case of non compliance there is another, much greater punishment for the English corrupted post-modernistic pseudo-internationalist establishment:
boycott of 2012 OLYMPIC GAMES !!!
Any criminal (a thief in our case) is not allowed to possess or use by any means neither material nor intellectual property which belongs to its victims.
How about them apples?
:-)
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After reading the blogs and feasting on the admirable historical knowledge of most, the arguments for and against, I have come to the conclusion that the essence of the matter is....thankyou Britain for caring for these ancient artifacts.........now please send them home.......where they belong.The British are renound for their fairness and impeccable sense of right and wrong and I have no doubt that with all the problems there are today, the world will shed a tear of content when the marbles are returned to Athens, to the Parthenon, to their dwelling house.........to lay to rest at last. philhellene...And history with all her volumes vast,Hath but one page. Lord Byron (Childe Harold)
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I am totally embarrassed by the British Museums refusal to hand back what are effectively stolen works of art. It is akin to the Nazis looting of occupied Europe and then claiming ownership! Do the right thing and return the marbles.
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There is a strong argument behind Britain's constant denial in returning the Parthenon Marbles back to ( but obviously noone wants to admit) where they belong to: 6000000 people visit the British museum evey year. True, very true. Out of this 6000000 I will consider that 60% are european and other tourists & 40% Britons. That means that approximately 3,600,000 tourists fly over to London for maybe a week and spare 1 day ot 2 to visit the museum. Should marbles and other state of the art monuments are to return to where they belong to,at least half of the 3,600,000 will not visit London and prefer to visit perhaps Athens, thus London will loose a significance piece of the financial pie. Tourism!
Now all these nonsenses about Greeks being unable to protect their history, the fact that we have been able to protect Acropolis (may I remind you that Acropolis is still there) and so many monuments (millions in numbers) tells the whole story. Britain is running out of excuses.
Someone had proposed to return the marbles on the condition that Greece would compensate Britain for the costs of taking care them. Sorry but no! We didn't offer them to you, you had taken them by us and we were never asked.
A loan is not acceptable either, not only because there are legal implications behind that, but you can't claim a loan to something which physically belongs to you anyway.
To conclude, the Parthenon Marbles should return to Greece with immediate effect and no further delays or arguments about this subject.
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While I was impressed by the Elgin marbles in the British Museum, I did not feel that there was any reason why they should remain there. Frankly, I would have rather seen them overlooking their original location than in some dark London gallery. And the way train fares are spiralling, it's almost cheaper for me to go and see them in Greece than it is for me to go and see them in London! As a gesture of goodwill, we should give them back.
There is nothing childish about the Greek argument for the marbles' return. How would we Brits feel if someone took away several pillars of Stonehenge or a section of Hampton Court for safekeeping and refused to give them back generations later?
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Why do they have to be in Athens to be admired? because they'll be in a brand spanking new modern museum? Why don't the Greeks spend money restoring the real buildings and reducing pollution because they would have a case saying that they should be back where they came from. Culture has no borders. With the argument the Greeks are making we may as well place them anywhere in the Ottoman Empire. Anyway, with arguments like that, it would leave it open for pieces to be flying everywhere from one place to the other. If it was about preserving the marbles then it shouldn't matter where they are, as long as they are free for the public to access. BTW, the BM doesn't have a charge to get in so Tourism doesn't really concern them.
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Well ,first of i have to say that i find some excuses a bit not reasonable..Culture have no borders..That means that the marbles have to stay in an english museum?cause culture has no borders for me means that they had to be sent in all the museums of the world ..not be held in only one museum and do not leave even the people who created them and the british stole these from them to keep it..
We are people of the world now..Well the last thing i see is this..i think that some people are people justn of themselves..just a comment to a excuse that nobody will believe..
As for the turism you know very well that the marbles ,etc is a big attraction..So ofcourse an there is a big economical benefit..
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#19 ingeniousSN wrote: "As a Greek living in London and having visited the British Museum three times I was disguisted by the cultural theft that I witnessed there."
As a Turk having visited the Pergamon Museum in Berlin, I was upset that behind a net's shadow was displayed the 'reconstructed' marketplace of Milet(os), an ancient city that has a distance of 10 miles from my hometown.
Art is complete in its 'rightful' place. Where's the rightful place then, you might ask.
In the context of my example, you should visit Milet and Berlin to find an (/no) answer: art will tell you (n)one.
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#81 TaPantaOla wrote: "The Turks did not care about the cultural heritage of other peoples and tried to make some money, the same applies during their occupation of Egypt...how much clearer should this point be made??"
Yours is a point that is far from being clear.
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This thing that the greeks say something and the turks just appear from somewhere to say the opposite is something that is not our topic now..ok there are problems between the two countries..that i hope that will be solved when turkey one day enter in the eu..just not the same things again and again now..thats tiring..
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well Priene, I was referring to comments made such as "that Greeks sold the marbles to Elgin and now they want them back, they should pay.."...the Greek did not (or even intend to) sell anything, they were plainly robed, on the other hand the Ottomans made a business deal with Elgin as they couldn't care less about the culture of others...
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On a side note, the fact that the Parthenon was a temple is debated. It's possible it was just a treasury (I know some of my teachers refused categorically to have it called a temple), and that Athena was worshipped in another building.
Religious or not, it was certainly a major political statement. If anything embodies the power of classical Athens, it's that. So the Greeks' claim really isn't unreasonable, far from it. But the works the British Museum have had in their care are in a MUCH better state than the ones which remained in Athens. Sorry, but the caryatids still in place on the Erechtheion cut a really poor figure and should have been put in the safety of a pollution-free gallery much earlier.
Athens has now a place to guarantee these most important artefacts will not be defaced by pollution. But they should acknowledge the fact that without the British Museum, the Elgin marbles would be in a very sorry state indeed, and that Britain has given a crucial hand in the conservation of one of the most emblematic work of Western art. Demanding an unconditional return on the ground that the works were created in Greece totally overlooks the fact that a work of art has not only an origin, but a history. Their stay at the BM (and the excellent state they are in today, which is a direct consequence of that stay) is now part of that history, and you cannot just erase that.
A loan which would see both institutions loan their work to one another (e.g. Athen hosts the west pediment for say 5 years, then lend it for 5 years etc) and work hand in hand would seem like the fairest solution, in my humble opinion.
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and something that you dont know elgin destroyed the marbles..he was washing them with acid to make them whiter..the marbles would be in a much better state if there never were in england.Cause in greece noone would wash them with acid...now if they kept themin the english museum in a good state i have heard not even good things about how well they kept them there..in greece they will keep them like their babies..and the new museum is very very good ..so even for a better conservation away from not the english museum..
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away from the english museum ..i meant..very away..
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LouiseMarthe,
of course we can not erase the 200 years of exile in the the BM from the marbles' history but 200 years is nothing compared to the history of 2300 years where they had been always and rightfully standing.
Taking into account the destruction that Elgin caused to the Parthenon on the first place by his butchery leaves little ground for debate over the care they received next...
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TaPantaOla #81 to correct you Richard the Lionheart was not actually french. His lineage was predominantly Norman - who were viking and his dominions in france were bigger than the king of france.
The point many make is that the Elgin marbles were stolen and this is an ethical argument for their return. I was pointing out that even if this is the case Athens stole the money from the Delian League treasury to build the PArthenon in the first place. When you look at the Delian League in 430BC most would be in what became Asia Minor under the Romans. When you consider that Rome got more money from Asia Minor/Pontus than the rest of the empire put together, then you can imagine that at least half the money would have come from there. As Asia Minor is what is now modern Turkey, then I would suppose the Turks were within their rights to give Elgin half of the marbles.
If there is to be an attempt to restore the parthenon fully then the marbles should be returned until then they migt as well stay where they are
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it is not just the parthenon destruction..elgin saw the marbles as beautiful things to decorate his home etc ,..so they have to be white..he destroyed them.as for the british museum i ve hear the the state they were 5 years ago was not the one the museum took them..i thnk that both two museums can do a nice work bot in their own home i think thay will take care of them much better..
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andybudgen the turks have not the right to sell anything however ..especially to elgin..
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I am a greek and just want to report my experience of visiting the British museum two years ago.
I felt very aggrieved, seeing that Acropolis marbles were displayed in a dirty and uncare environment with an obsolete museum concept that doesnt pay attention to the size and the meaning of those marbles to humanity.
The whole museum and tourist attitude was depreciative and injurious to the marbles.
Many people were photographed posing and laughing in front of the marbles and there were no stuff to prevent them from that insulting behavior.
Also, there were no prohibition for the flash use of photos, which is damaging for the marbles.
In all greek museum, none can pose next to exhibits or use the flash to take photographs.
Also, the new Acropolis museum, by its focus to the specific exhibitions and the re-establish of the old wholeness can restore the meaning of these marbles that are left so many years in a depressing room amongst other important but irrelevant exhibits
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I have read so many interesting arguments in here and some really ridiculous. Two of them were that Elgin saved that marbles and that the B.M has offered a safe place for them. NO, THESE ARE NOT TRUE! He wanted them for his own purposes. They were sawed and thrown down from the Parthenon! And then he sold them to the B.M to clear his dept to the country which was £30,000 at that time. And the B.M has done damages to the marbles in the colour and possibly the thickness of them. These are told by archaeologists many of them British themselves! Maybe many of you in here should read a little more about the true story behind the looting and stealing of the Parthenon marbles from Elgin.
How should the Greeks react to all these? Shouldnt they demand back their heritage? Why does it matter if Athens at that time was a city-state? Why does it matter if Athens became the capital of Greece in the recent years and not when Parthenon was actually built by Phidias? Does this make the looting and steeling less of a criminal offence? So, if something is stolen from London people from Cardiff will not care!!! How ridiculous!!!!!
How would the British fell then if the Greeks decide to take a sweet revenge with the 2012 Olympic Games? After all they are of Greek origin. How about not giving the Olympic flame to London? Dont forget that the lighting of it takes place in Greece. Respect what the Greeks have offered to this planet. Many of the things that you know and do are because the Greeks had studied them. I have made this point earlier in here; denying the Greek history is like denying a big part of the history that is within each one of you! And this is for all of you speak so negatively about Greek history, inheritance, and culture.
Is it a shame to destroy pieces of art made by people like Phidias for reasons that are petty, and materialistic. Other countries have returned stolen pieces of art back to Greece. It is time B.M and Louvre to do the same.
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To AndyBugden
About Richard the Lionheart the proud symbol of England and Victorian times..ok I agree, the point is that he definitely spoke French and did not know how to speak English and did not consider England his homeland....was he a Norman, Viking, French or English or maybe a little bit of everything or perhaps something else too?? Bit confused..just wanted to make a point on your previous remarks on the formation of a national identity..better leave it out of the equation
Your other point about the Delian league etc...is completely absurd, it was no logic basis and i find it strange that you are persisting on it..wasting knowledge on a non-logical simple equation...
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We should return the marbles immediately. And if that entails more countries demanding the return of their artifacts, then we should return those as well. It makes far more sense for an artifact to be kept near its site of origin, subject to adequate provision for storage and preservation. Besides, what right does the British Museum have to take artifacts from other countries, even if it is dependent thereon for attracting tourism (which it is not, given that it has plenty British artifacts, such as the exhibition about Sutton Hoo in Suffolk).
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So the british took them to conservate them. Thats a big lie.
1 Why take pieces and not the whole thing.
2 If Elgin wanted to protect them why didnt he bring the a British guard to guard the place but instead tore it apart and took only pieces back home?
Tourism my dear friends goes to the city. The city of london has incomes from tourism.
If Greece was recieving money from Australians, Canadians, Indians and God knows who else, if Greece had under its rule Scotland, Wales and Ireland, if Greece had riped of the mines of the African countries and the riches the American natives had, then have no doubt my friends nobody would be paying an entrance fee to any of the museums in Greece.
In the same logic with Elgin or the BM u should also transfer pieces of Taj mahal to london.
Athens has polution and on the other hand London has the pure atmosphere of the country side.
Art belongs to all. No doubt about it but art and monuments should be displayed where they were ment to be.
The BM took care of the marbles. I dont see how you take care of an antiquity bymutilating it, and by organizing receptions with drinks and food infront of them. Doesnt heat and moisture affect them? And speaking of moisture I suppose London has a very dry climate with no rains and humidity. Those arguments are to laugh at. Its better to say "listen we have no culture of our own to show ( which is not true ) we need the money of the tourists so forget about it.
But appart from all those things imagine if the tourists would say I refuse to go and see the chinese or the egyptian or the turkish or any other culture to any other place than the place those cultures where born because there i can feel the era when they were born. How devostating would that be to London city and the BM. Missing for example some millions of chinese who would gladly see their artifacts returned to them.
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LouiseMarthe The Parthenon house the statue of Athena (last seen in turkey) It was made of Gold Silver and Ivory and must have been magnificent. The name Parthenon suggests it was a temple. Quite possible money was stored there as well. The Artemision in Ephesus has yielded Electrum coins. Its quite possible they were struck to pay the temple officials etc.
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Elgin did take the marbles to conserve them - make no mistake about this. His choice of place to display them was his own house, but he ran out of money and was forced to sell them
To TaPantaOla Richard spoke Norman French - which is a separate dialect - a mix of norse and French. The English Identity only came 100 years or so later when there was a conserted effort to break away from the French origins.
The Delian League is extremely relevant here. In 480 Athens was completely destroyed by Xerxes. After Sparta left the Alliance, a new one was formed in 478 at Delos. Athens had naval might at this time but had to rebuild the city. In 454 the Delian League treasury was removed from Delos to Athens because of a supposed Persian threat. it is during this time that Pericles commissioned much of the building works which we associate with 5th century Athens. So where did the money come from? I challenge you to find a scholar who will tell you that the money came from somewhere other than the delian league. The money was supposed to be for defence of the league not for building Temples and Theatres etc.
At the end of the Persian war Athens had alot of trained warriors - just as at the end of the Peloponesian war - hence people like Xenephon acted as mercenaries afterwards.
The point is Athens stole the money to build the Parthenon in the first place so using a theft argument for returning the Elgin Marbles is a bit rich.
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Hi there all.
Similarily, as many of my fellow Greeks in this blog I have been living in UK for more than ten years. During these 10 years i met many British people and as I now getting married to a British Girl, I had the chance to meet the British coulture from all Angles. I am aware that most British people are always welcoming, warm, understanting and polite, and I must admit that this is the feeling I have got from UK for the past 10 years and hopefully for the days to come.
As within all good willing people there are always the ignorant and the unwilling to be understanding. For this reason, ( and I would like to thank the person that reated this forum), I thought I should write a couple of lines about the Elgin marble issue as a fellow Greek, as a current citizent of UK, and as a future father( as my kids will be BOTH, Greek and British in nationality).
I am referring into three kinds of authors in this blog. (Not personally but as groups). First to my compatriots, the "Understanding and willing to discuss British people", but also to the few persitent "ignorants".
First to the fellow Greeks, I have to share with them their happiness and celebration or the reation of the new Museum. It is on its own a masterpiece for the years to come complementing all the masterpieces, presented within. I would like to say also that many fellow British people in my environment expressed the will to visit the museum, as they are inspired from what they have seen from the BBC news. So fellow Greeks just know that not all British people are falling under the same umbrella label that usually comes out from the few and ignorant. Bad attitude is more noticed than good attitude, usually.
To the fellow British people that are willing to discuss and understand the isuue ( the majority I must admit), I must say thanks for the understanding and the support in all issues. Truly all ancient achievements are for the whole world to see, and would like to underline (for those that state there is nothing for display in UK), that there are a lot of Celtic, Saxon,Nordic and Roman archeological findings, in the different areas of UK, that are as admirable and as important in the history of human kind evolution to see. I strongly believe ( only by watching Time team documentaries) that british museums will be flooded with these artifacts that are as much for British to feel proud and for the world to admire as well.
To the few persistent "ignorants" that write in this forum I would say this: By trying to raise a conflict, being sarcastic about someones orthografy ( greek word/ ortho - grafw= writing correctly), or by trying to engage on a game of developing theories about history, about if Greeks were infact Greeks, if the marbles are Greek or British and which culture is better or not, you are not making this issue any more righteous.
History has been carved on Parthenon in Greek letters, equally has been demonstrated in Stonehenge and the different castles of medieval history, and noone can hypothesize whether they are Welsh,Scottish, Irish they are all british, and Equally Parthenon is Greek. So the few ignorant should start realising that this issue slowly slides in the negative side in this forum. Do we need a war of which culture is better and stronger and fitter and more arian and capable than others, or should we realise that we all ride the same boat and cooperate. What would be the argument of all these ignorant but few Brits if Greeks one silent night steal the Elgin Marbles from the London Museum?? According to their justification if the robbers steal them and then sell them back to Greek people then the sale is Legitimate and plus the marbles are back home. Should a war start from it?
In order to conclude, I would like to talk to these ignorant few with less strictness and tell them that British History has so many luminus periods to feel proud for ( ancient,medieval,victorian and onwards) that they do not need to borrow history from other cultures. As a father I will be as proud to present both cultural achievements to my kids. Both Bristish and both Greek, but I will teach them as well that no man is an island and that no culture is inferior.
So please (referring to the few "ignorant"), come in Greece, enjoy the artifacts, but please respect our history, our dignity, and our nation, as muh as we respect your nation and your dignity and your culture as Greeks living in this country. There is no need for negativity, anyways, all arts and sciences in europe are shared and were communicated. That is not disputed but what i believe that is disputed here, is whether the makers and owners of these masterpieces where indeed Greek or not.
So please accept the invitation and come and experience life in Greece, look at the monuments speek to the people, with respect, and you will realise that they are no different than you, and that Greece is still there for you and for everybody to share and to have a good time.
And as it matters about kings and queens and whether Greeks have a good democracy or not, we are normal people making mistakes but making good things as well, we have our weaknesses and competences. And so do you ( few british ignorants). Perfect is found nowhere as it is in the nature of human kind to learn from its own mistakes. We are all human we are all imperfect in search for progress and evolution.
Many thanks to the BBC for this Great opportunity for a constructive debate, and I apologise if my English was not correct.
Regards Greek in Britain
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"In long terms of time culture prevails on economy, that make Greece one of the richest and more important countries"
Any reasonable person would like the marbles to be returned. It´s not a matter of being Greek or British it´s all about being civilized.
I am Greek and Athenian and i adore our history as i adore history and culture in general and i know that once upon a time where two British, "Lord" Helgin and Lord Byron. The second one, civilized and great poet, wanted for real to save and cointribute to the greek history (whatever that means) and he died in Greece fighting next to the Greeks for his ideals, the other called Lord but being thief mutilated the sacred rock of Acropolis.
The marbles soon or late will be return because it´s logical and fair.
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@AndyBugden
Your Delian League argument is extremely weak. You may find this helpful:
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/weak-analogy/
It might be even more helpful if you went through the whole list of fallacies. Not to be pedantic in that way, we all use a fallacy or two occasionally, but some knowledge in that field wouldn't go amiss.
Also, if I may ask, where did you study Classical Greece? Some of your views on the subject are rather controversial- in a factual way.
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Given that the archaelogy musuem in Athens has two halls of Egyptian artifacts isn't it just a tiny bit hypocritical that the Greeks demand a return of their artifacts (after abusing & ignoring them for centuries) yet don't return those of other cultures?
Its also worth pointing out that the Turks were grinding the parthenon sculptures to dust to make cement and if Elgin hadn't taken them (at considerable cost) they'd have been lost forever. If the Greeks recognised this fact rather than acuse us of 'theft' I'd be more inclined to support a return of them.
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#103. The Turks had ruled Greece for 500 years when they sold the marbles to Elgin. Thats nearly twice as long as Australia or the USA have existed. There hadn't been an independent nation called Greece since the Roman empire collapsed. Legally they had every right to sell the marbles.
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I will admit up front that I am a Brit, who has been to Greece only on holiday but found it beautiful, the vast majority of people wonderful. But I still say the Elgin Marbles should remain in Britain.
Check the history, guys! Lord Elgin was responsible for rescuing the marbles from being blown up by the Ottmans, who were using the Parthenon as a gunpowder store. He actually paid for the whole lot, but only took those that could be found after an accidental explosion. Without him, it is quite likely that there would be no marbles left to argue over! So why should we just hand them back? I have seen nothing which suggests that the Greeks acknowledge how much good Elgin did, much less offer to pay current market rate for them , as Elgin did. In fact, thinking about it, Greece should be giving the rest of the marbles to us, as Lord E had already legitimately paid for them!
It always amazes me how people only ever remember the bits of history which supports their cause, and never ALL the facts of the case.
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"Its also worth pointing out that the Turks were grinding the parthenon sculptures to dust to make cement and if Elgin hadn't taken them (at considerable cost) they'd have been lost forever. If the Greeks recognised this fact rather than acuse us of 'theft' I'd be more inclined to support a return of them."
really Peter_Sym? and how come the rest of Parthenon still exists?
"Elgin did take the marbles to conserve them - make no mistake about this. His choice of place to display them was his own house, but he ran out of money and was forced to sell them"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Andy you are an hellenic hater with no arguments. Can I have the crown jewels pls I promiss to safekeep them and preserve them until all my money are depleted. Then because nobody will have the money to buy them I will sell them to a museum ( of my country preferably ) or to a state. And then I will demand my place in history as the suvior of British culture. Grow up.
Hitler once said if tell a huge lie loud and often enough people will eventually believe it. I think thats the case here.
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The arguments of the British Museum and other British scholars are, simply put, silly and elusive. Instead they should admit that the British Museum received stolen pieces of art once and for all. Saying that "Greece has no museum to put them in" is equivalent to my stealing a car from the street and put it in my parking because the owner had nowhere proper to put it. And saying that a piece of art can be separated is just as ridiculous as half a Gioconda in Paris and half in London. The Elgin marbles where stolen and should be returned.
On the other hand, the Greeks should allow the British Museum to select antiquities in storage (there are huge quantities) and form a new and complete exhibition on Greek civilisation in one of the most important museums in the world.
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P01744 -
Some claims made by non-Greek national groups formerly present in modern day Greece:
Cham Albanians in northwest Greece: Muslim Chams were expelled from the region of Epirus during World War II, having lived there since the 12th century.
Quoting from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanians): "Following the Balkan Wars of 19121913, the majority of Chameria came under Greek rule. For the next few decades, the Chams were marginalized and discriminated against by the Greek state, who viewed them with distrust. Their properties were confiscated, several thousand were expelled to Turkey, and their cultural identity was suppressed...
"Throughout the period, the Chams, supported by Albania, campaigned for recognition of minority rights, especially the right to be educated in Albanian. Although some Greek governments reined in the discriminatory practices and guaranteed these rights, they were never implemented as other governments revoked them.
"...in 1944, the entire Muslim Cham population was expelled from Greece, by a republican resistance group, as a result of the participation of Chams in the communist resistance group of Greece, and the collaboration of some members of the minority".
Wikipedia obviously has it's shortcomings, and I don't want to find myself in a position defending everything written on there, but throughout the countries bordering Greece there are similar stories and claims. I think many relate back to the first half of the 20th century when the Greek state was still consolidating its power, and which was a very tumultuous time with lots of wars. Greece did what every other state would most likely have done if they had been strong enough, and won land that had become up for grabs after the decline of Ottoman rule. Nobody can be surprised at that or even call Greece exceptional for that. But nonetheless, a huge amount of injustice like this seems to have been perpetrated, and yet with little acknowledgment today from Greece or western media, and I think certainly no attempt to make reparations.
(FYRO)Macedonia is in some ways the same issue. Ignoring the question of who stole who's history - Greece says ancient Macedon was "Greek", (FYRO)Macedonia says ancient Macedon was "(FYRO)Macedonian" - one of the main reasons why this actually matters to anybody is the claim over the territory of Aegean Macedonia in Northern Greece. In my experience, I have heard pro-Greek Macedonians say that roughly several hundred thousand slavic speaking people ("Bulgarians" or "Macedonians", depending which side of the debate you are on) were ejected from the area of Aegean Macedonia, and persecuted in various ways, around the same time and in the same way as with the Cham Albanians. Pro FYRO-Macedonians claim the number was in the millions. There are many people in (FYRO) Macedonia today claiming to have documents proving their ownership of land in modern day Aegean Macedonia.
Obviously these are complex issues that won't be resolved here. My view is that Britain has committed more nasty imperialistic acts of theft and persecution like this probably than almost any other state. And we should admit it, say sorry, and send the Elgin Marbles (and probably everything else) back to where we stole them from. But my point is that it would be great if Greece could do the same.
Every nation does this kind of thing to weaker nations - stealing, abusing, and then making up often very weak arguments to justify keeping their gains. Greece complains of this in the case of Britain, but does it too have contrition?
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It makes me wonder how people can really believe that Elgin wanted to preserve the marbles and not just get his hands on some unique pieces of history? If his intention was to save them from the Ottomans then why did he not take the whole marbles down and he had to literally butcher these pieces of art. And please stop using the argument that he realised that the marbles were too big to be taken down without taking them apart. I wonder how poor Phidias and his team built them and put them together 2.300 years using less technological means prior to Elgin destroying them...
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I am Greek, and I would like to say a few things about the museum which are not often said. I am sick and tired with all the propaganda surrounding it; it is an expensive distraction from the deep social, political and economic crisis of Greece.
With respect to Greece's claim to the marbles, it is worth pointing out that other antiquities were destroyed in order to built it. Antiquities are mistreated everywhere in Greece; the temple of Agrotera Artemida, just a few blocks away, is disappearing under rubbish, while an illegal dump nearby the Delphi site caught fire last week.
As a building it is very ugly; some people may disagree, but all we hear is their views. Someone, also, should point out that it is simply not true that it was built solely for Elgin marbles: Athens' air is so polluted, that all marbles of value must be removed.
To answer Razia's question: Elgin marbles should be located where they promote better the values and the civilisation of ancient Greece. Is this place Athens? Somehow, I doubt it...
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this post goes towards : ----->119. At 4:47pm on 21 Jun 2009, dr-johnson
Dear Dr. Johnson, first as a doctor you should know that referring to wikipedia is equally as refferring to your own post. Wiki pedia is not a reference book or a scientific source for debate. It is a knowledge database open to debate. You seem to have selected articles that suit your points regardless of their validity. I would encourage you to look on article on the slaying of Greeks during the Ottoman wars, look at the disaster of Ismir (Smirni), and then after carefully weighting both sides of the story making your remarks as a good doctor you are, or simply state your opinion without any reference.
Secondly I believe there are other national differences claiming several issues that you should look at Dear Doctor Selective: The Iranians say that Israel should be wiped out of the map ( extreemism), That Iraq war was justified due to Weapons of mass distruction, and yes FYROMIANS suggest that Alexander the Great was FYROMIAN, was speaking slavick languages etc. One day They might say the same thing about all Greece.
If you see the map of Greece you will realise that it is surrounded by conflict areas or areas that recently had being under conflict. Every country procalims by propaganda that a part of Greece is theirs justifying it by local legend. If this remars are taken for Granded, and under your own doctoral mentality, Greeks do not or should not exist, it never existed, and maybe in antiquity people where not talking Greek, etc. etc.
Unfortunately, all these critics here in the blog, are bringing these as facts in defence of return of what was once created and owned by Greeks. How far are you ( the few ignorant Brits), are willing to go in order to justify your claims. This reminds me a bit about the Iranian claims on Israel. May be you need to justify first that Greeks do not exist therefore the Marbles are yours, may lord Elgin made them and us Greeks lie about it. May be we should give you all the rest. May be your next example Dr. Unjustified, will be to look into nazi books and say that since we were 4 years under the German occupation (us Greeks ) we are actually German and not Greek.
Note this is a message not to the constructive criticism that most of the people are doing in this blog, but against the few ignorant that in order to justify their opinion are willing to refer to anything that suits xt their cause. This is a sincere aswer as I believe in freedom of Speech and do not wish to complain or demand to be taken out anyones posts.
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Dear All
The point is not about who is wrong. Does it really matter if Elgin was wrong, or if the British Museum contributed to the preservation of the marbels? Is it important if British Museum is legally the ''owner'' of the sculpures? Can you own other country's symbols of culture, history and civilitaion?
I do not think that Greeks try to blame Britons. All they want is to give back what was taken from their Temple. For them, the sculptures are cultural, religious and histoic symbols. For the British Museum is nothing more than a masterpiece of art. Their reluctance to return the artefacts is a proof of not realising their importance.
A British Museum spokesman 2 days ago saied that the marbles should stay at London to say two different stories.... What stories? The story of taking the sculptures from Acropolis? Is this the current argument of the British Museum for keeping them? Anyway, their story can only be fully displayed in Acropolis.
Besides, I do not think that the British Museum helped much the marbles' preservation.The sculpures that remained in Greece are preserved as well as those in London.
The British Museum's people should set aside their childish behaviour. The will gain more respect from the international community if they return the artefacts. At any case they only realistic reason for keeping them is to advertaise their Museum.
It is all about world and Greek culture, art and history. The Parthenon scluptures do not belong to persons or institutions. They belong to the temple, and the Greek culture and civilisation. Their place is there. Every person with moral values and respect to culture would agree that without a second thought the artefacts taken from the Partehnon must be returned at once.
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Can certain posters spare us the nonsense about "the only way to send the marbles back is to have the Parthenon rebuilt"? Does it take that much brain power to realise that it is probably technically and most importantly culturally, artistically and morally impossible? What do people expect? Modern Greeks to source exactly the same type of marble and use exactly the same techniques and have access to the original plans? And what the purpose of that would be? What would be next? Give the Great Sphinx of Giza a new nose? Give us all a break.
Also, having read quite a few of the comments in here I have failed to spot whether anyone has mentioned the woeful damages on the marble's patina by the BM during a controversial cleaning in the 1930s with metal tools.
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For all of you native speakers, and those of you from turkey, italy, spain, egypt or from where ever else try www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...Elginism. Or simply google "elginism". The return of the marbles doesn't need another argument.
P.S. For all of you history and archaeology lovers try some etymology (oops!!!something more greek to you. You see not only the greek monuments but the language also, among others, is universal).
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Since I originate from Macedonia, therefore Dorian and longlasting enemy of the Athenians, I couldn't agree more that all their glory in their Golden Century (5th B.C.) came from the steeling of the Delian League's money. But didn't the same do Sir Frances Drake, famous pirate looting the spanish fleet, or the collonialists looting india, africa etc providing at the same time England resources to move mankind into the industrial revolution of the early 19th century?
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The demand for the return of the marbles is UNIVERSAL!!! Visit any forum you like see the voting on it by ordinary people. They all point to that direction. The BM has just run out of excuses. Thievery is something that should not be aplauded and supported by anyone. I thank first and most of all british people and parliamentaries that support the return of the marbles cause they show to the rest of the world how proud and altrouists British people are. Ancient Greece gave civilization to Western Europe as Egypt and China and Syria and Rome did and those civilizations should be regarded with more respect. We wouldnt have the civilization we have today if we scrap from the history books their existance
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It's about time the UK accepts that many of its national heroes are no more than genocidal war criminals, and many of its national treasures nothing but stolen goods. No problem, in fact, unless the victim is a fellow member state of the EU.
Diederik Manderfeld, Antwerpen
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Today, all the British visitors at the new Acropolis museum were astonished by the cultural crime as they call it.
Many of them were apologizing to the greek media and felt sorry about the British museum policy.
They realized the problem and the significance of the marbles for Greeks which is more important than the economic benefits for the British museum.
Of course, the problem was never between Greece and Britain, but between Greece and British museum. Especially the academic world in Britain has many times supported the return of the Parthenon marbles.
Seeing the frieze of Parthenon at the new Acropolis museum, anyone can understand that the theme is about restoring the wholeness.
55 m. of it, is located in Athens and 75 m. in Britain. The unique story of Panathinea, as a part of the Acropolis truth, is separated. It is a rare fact of monument segregation. The marbles in British museum are not autonomous sculptures but parts of an architecture wholeness. The Acropolis wholeness. And this is something that must be regarded with respect.
Anyone that posts unhistorical propaganda about Acropolis, shouldnt belong to this debate, and I dont believe that there is any British amongst them.
p.s. Elginism n. An act of cultural vandalism, Originates from the actions of Thomas Bruce 7th Earl of Elgin, in removing much of the sculpture from the Parthenon in the early C19 to decorate his house in Scotland. Debts later forced him to sell the above sculptures to the British Museum where they become known as the Elgin Marbles.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=elginism
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I feel embarraced with the arguments of many.
Ignorant or not, a certain level of dignity should prevail, at least about matters of civilization..
Please, visit the Acropolis Museum. The answer lies there..
The rest is bla-bla-ism...
Thank you.
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Dear dr-johnson, as you say wikipedia certainly isn't the most recognised historical database. As for the chams, the non greek historiography, f.e. Woodhouse C.M., (british collonel attached to the greek resistance during WWII), "Apple of Discord", London 1951, writes that they collabolated with the Italian and German occupators forming the "Roman League" against the greek restistance and trying to form kind of a semiindependent state attached to fascist Italy. After the WWII they left to Albania.
Right after the Balkan Wars (1912/13) in the Bucharest Convension the Balkanian Borders were decided between the Balkan countries.An international comitee, an italian millitary officer, whose name at the moment I forgett, was in charge(I understand Italy is not a balkan country but imperialistic countries are always found where they don't belong), decided on the Greek/Albanian borders. In the territory called by us greeks as northern Epirus and by the Albanians southern Albania a vast majority of greeks remain still under albanian "rule" (nowadays with improved conditions compared to them during the communist times in Albania).
As for FYROMIANS, to ignore the question "who is who" is the easy imperialistic/american way (no offence). I would suggest you once again to read the Oxford proffesors.
Forgive my poor english once again.
P.S. right after WWII there was a civil war in Greece. The majority of the slavophones (certainly not millions) living in Greece took the part of the communist party (the reason of it would take me pages to explain), who lost the war. So as the non slavophones communists they left the country to go to the back then called socialist countries.
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CalliopeIris
i think the fallacy link is a red herring and is off topic. It is the argument I am attacking, not Greeks. I am puzzled as to why you should think that anything I have typed is controversial. This gives the impression that it's either untrue or it's open to opinion. Actually I think the most important parts are actually generally accepted. If you would like to point out anything you dispute, I can point you towards sources ancient and modern for your further study.
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'The Real Story of Lord Elgin'.
The story in written from the view of Political Correctness.The Acropolis stood as it was built for thousands of years until the Moslem Ottoman Turks conquered Greece. The Ottoman Turks were gradually stripping off the Marble from the Acropolis to use in building.
Countless Friezes were pounded into powder.
Lord Elgin saw this and persuaded the Turks to sell him the Marbles.He paid for them with his own money.
The ship carrying them capsized in the Harbour and he rescued them raising them which was no easy task.All paid for by him!
The Greeks national dress have 400 pleats which signify the opression and destruction of Greek civilization.That speaks for what they suffered.However,that does not nullify the claim to ownership of the Elgin Marbles.Lord Elgin bought and paid for them legally.
In the Britsh Museum thay are safe.There is no guarantee the Turks won't be back.And what is left of the Acropolis will go the same way as the Binayam Bhuddas.Deliberately destroyed as a symbol of Paganism.
Let the Britsh Museum keep the Marbles where they have been safe for over a hundred years.They belong to English Culture as we have our origins in Classic Greek Culture.
The same argument applies to Egypt.The people who built the Pyramids,and left such a rich Civilization were not Arab.As an occupying force they have no claim to the ancient monuments,and indeed demolished most of them.And what was saved was saved by the French, and then the British Who saved the Rossetta Stone?The French did!
It was the Moslem Invadors who blew the face of the Sphynx.
Britain has respected the ancient Coptic Civilization of Egypt by rescuing it treasures.
Let the Elgin Marbles remain where they are.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3841179.stm
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bluecopperCassandra, I guess you cannot understand the distinctiveness of the topic.
We are talking about a part of the Acropolis and not about ancient autonomous bodies. It is like stealing (or protecting as you say) a stone of Stonehedge.
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what is the name for the people who buy ancient things with their own money?and how many years is it n prison?the greek marbles part of the english culture...stealing culture?pirates ,etc?
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Andybudgen, it is not certain that Phidias' chryselephantine Athena, no mattter how magnificent it was, was a cult statue - in which case the Parthenon could not, strictly speaking, be considered as a temple. Crucially, no sign of an altar to Athena Parthenos has been found. Greek archaeology is made of conjecture. But that's not the matter at hand.
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"I simply cannot imagine a lover of the arts allowing saws to attack some of the greatest works ever made."
Modern campaigners also point to the damaging effects upon the sculptures of Athens' notorious traffic. Similarly, Elgin claimed the sculptures were better off in Britain than the perilous environment he found them in.
Through years of damage through unrest and theft, the Parthenon statues were already hugely damaged.
Elgin told a Parliamentary inquest that a desire to protect what was left of the treasure was part of his motivation in taking them. The Turks, he claimed, had been even grinding down the statues to make mortar.
Elgin appears to be a slightly confused mixture of good and bad, whose motives can in one light be seen as justifiable and noble but are full of contradictions.
His desire to preserve art for posterity does not sit with his original plans to house it in his private home, whilst his supposed obsession with art conflicts with his willingness to desecrate the ancient building.
Attempting to fully understand Elgin as a person rather than a simplistic figure of notoriety proves as tricky as finding a resolution to the wider question of the marbles' rightful fate.
The Elgin Marbles is being shown on BBC Two, Saturday 26th June at 2100 BST
you didnt write the whole article cause you forgot it i guess..next time you cheat do not use the source..
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The hard question about the Acropolis Museum is how well will it contrast the glory of the Athenian Democracy with the state corruption of today.
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at least athens did nt steal goods of other countries and it does nt use cheap tricks to keep them..
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P01744
History was invented by the father of lies and archaeology is a misnomer for grave robbing. See apart from Archaeology and History I can use words not derived from greek
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andy whatever words you use ..u have no meaning.
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bluecopperCassandra wrote:
"There is no guarantee the Turks won't be back.And what is left of the Acropolis will go the same way as the Binayam Bhuddas. Deliberately destroyed as a symbol of Paganism":
The above is a snobbish insult both to Greeks and the Turks.
I complained in vain. I used to think highly of the BBC, but i wonder now...
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for bbc stealing is sign of a culture..well as i remember queen elizabeth had pirates friends..
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AndyBugden certainly your english is much more inspired than mine. But still, "elginism" is an english neologism.
P.S. I understand you are also good with latin as well.
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Elgin Marbles, did you say? If a burglar steals the Crown Jewels from the Tower of London and displays them in his own private museum as the "Bill Sykes" Jewels he is only doing what that Scottish robber baron did some 200 years ago. I believe at least one of the panels is housed in the manor of one of the plunderers descendants. It has been mentioned here by some ignoramus that since Elgin might have paid a crooked Ottoman official for the Parthenon Marbles and they have been in British possession ever since the Greeks should pay to have them back. Thats the last straw, what cheek, what arrogance!
Former Greek prime minister Kostas Simitis rather awkwardly asked Tony Blair can we have our marbles back? at a coffee break in an EU meeting. I think Blair replied that it was not the governments responsibility but up to the curator of the British Museum. Curators are like librarians they dont want to give anything up, even lending things would be resisted. The unimaginative London setting of the Parthenon panels is in a gloomy gallery illuminated by the pale English sun instead of the clear sharp light of Greece. Its time the British government took action. Athens is a major international centre that has hosted the Olympic games twice in the past 100 years and anyone interested in the history and culture of classical Greece will go there at one time or other.
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LouiseMarthe
Demosthenes, Speeches 21-30 speech 22, section 13
I know he is 100 years after the building of the parthenon but this suggests it was a temple - its the quickest quote to hand
More importantly on the topic - Demosthenes tells us how much was built in 5th century Athens which was a very poor city in 480, but in only 50 years managed to build so many great works - and still managed to wage war for many years. The money was stolen from th Delian League
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andybudgen you are not a historian.do u?
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Dear AndyBugden should I also keep repeating myself or just "copy/paste" nr126?
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I think this is relevant to the post and highly ironic - thought it might make you all laugh
"my own pleasure has never surfaced in looking at buildings, at the great works of the history or the present of architecture, but, rather, in dismantling them."
Bernard Tschumi - "Architecture and Disjunction" (page210)
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AndyBugden is not just a historian he is a member of the secret Delian League cult originally created by Elgin in the 19th century. Cult members vowed to restore the injustice made from the part of Athens towards its league partners. :)
I have been following and participating in this discussion for the past two days. Going through the comments and responses, it can be said there are no real arguments left standing from the pro BM point of view...you may write the same things over and over again without taking into account the relevant responses but this does not change the fact your argumentation has been torn into threads...
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Most of the posters here are forgetting that the British Museum is prevented, by the terms of its constitution, from just giving away the marbles or anything else in its possession. And as long as the Greek government refuses to acknowledge that, despite the fact that the BM paid Elgin, who paid the then legal authorities (no matter how much you dislike the fact that Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire) for the marbles, it is unlikely that there will be agreement to change the constitution to allow the marbles to be handed to the Greek government. Also, does anyone really believe that if an agreement was made to 'share' them, the Greeks would really hand them back? I doubt the guardians of the BM's constitution would believe that! So, the impasse will continue!
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While following this discussion in this blog I am more and more wondering about the question if these posts are really reactively moderated in this blog?
And this makes me think about my next question what the intention of this blog really is?
This is definetly NOT the right place to discuss the "repatriation of the parthenon marbles", as the missing parthenon marbles are not in the right place to be seen.
PS. Thank you to all nations who "repatriated" all ready. My respect.
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PO1744 to your #126
dorialotos would be the greek word for it. If its ok for Athens to steal from the delian league to build the Parthenon then its also ok for the Ottomans to dispose of the marbles as they saw fit - after all they had only been there for about 500 years. This is dorialotos principal.
Now it has been argued here that the turks had no right to sell the marbles and that they belonged to the greeks - but as I pointed out earlier Athens stole the money from the Delian League and some of these vast sums were used to build the great works that we associate with 5th century Athens. Now we need to understand that much of these funds actually came from what is now modern Turkey.
I hope you can see how the "theft"argument in this case is actually flawed.
The Parthenon, it has also been claimed, is a symbol of Athenian Democracy - which has resulted in Democracy today and Freedom and for this reason the marbles should be together as a shining beacon for democracy and freedom. I have argued that Athenian Democracy was developed to help the aristocracy and the proof is that the aristocracy still controlled all the significant positions in government. Not only that the Athenian treatment of her allies in the latter part of the 5th Century was hardly a shining beacon for peace. I have also argued that a far more democratic system was in place in Sparta at this time. Moreover the Spartans were thousands of years ahead in equality for women.
Had Otto of Bavaria chosen corinth as his capital then the fervour would probably be alot less in regard to the marbles - alas he chose the shanty town of Athens - population about 4000 at the same time as there were some millions in London - Britain's capital!
The case for the status quo is as follows:
on face value the marbles were acquired legally and then sold legally to the UK.
The British Museum houses pieces from all over the world in one place. Now keep the marbles there and people may become inspired to see the acropolis and the Parthenon on it. More tourists come to London and The british museum is free to visit.
Personally I think that if the Parthenon were restored then the British Museum would return the marbles. The only people opposed to this would be archaeologists -but then their thinking is biased by their very nature
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The Marbles and the parthenon are just a visual expression of the might of Athens in the mid 5th Century BC but it is such a small thing in this world of ours. Far more important are the following:
The New Testament
Goat Songs (cf Poetics)
Philosophy - Presocratic and Post. Epicuros etc.
Political Science and Rhetoric (Aristotles, Platon, Demosthenes)
Language
Mathematics - by Pythagoras!
Hippocrates of Samos for medicine
Herodotos of Halicarnasos (the Father of History)
The ideal of Democracy
and I suppose the Olympic Games
Arent all these far greater monuments to the Heritage of the Greeks than a few weathered lumps of rock?
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To bluecopperCassandra comment 133 who wrote
In the Britsh Museum thay are safe.There is no guarantee the Turks won't be back.And what is left of the Acropolis will go the same way as the Binayam Bhuddas.Deliberately destroyed as a symbol of Paganism.
The only thing I can really say about this ridiculous argument is what I can remember is that in the very recent years some bombs exploded in London very near the British Museum puting in danger the safety of the marbels. So, please before you speak of the safety of other countries watch out for the safety of yours!!
PLEASE PEOPLE USE ARGUMENTS THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED AND STOP BEING RIDICULOUS!
I apologise if I bring back memories to any people who lived through those difficult days during the London bombs. Believe me I was here too as I live in London myself. But please, stop insulting us Greeks as this is utterly unfair!!!!!
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I cannot believe so much hatred against Greeks. Some despicable guy even mentioned
1)the turk-albanian chamides (3-4 villages of 20,000 Albanians, remnants of the turkish-ottoman army who continued banditism in the state of Greece and in WWII collaborated with Italian Fascists and German Nazis to produce a mini-genocide in Epirus - around 60,000 to 80,000 Greeks were killed by their direct and indirect actions as they acted as Italians' militia) - don't believe me...go see "neutral" ally archives on them...
2) the FYROMians (80,000 Slavo-Bulgarians who back in the early 20th century fought for a greater Bulgaria and for ethnically cleansing Macedonia of its original habitants, my grandparents, (go see the neutral Ottoman archives on how many Greeks and how many Slavs lived there), then in WWII despite they were left in peace for 20 years untouched, they collaborated with Nazi Germans and Bulgarians for the extermination of the local populations, then directly jumping to the communist camp where they commited further crimes... finally 60,000 of them were expelled at the end of the civil war as... communists alongside 300,000 Greeks (!!!) so these criminals got away with punishment fleeing as political refugees - 20,000 of them that did not participate in the events were left in Greece despite the ease with which Greeks could get rid of them too... so that much nationalist were Greeks.
So shut up before saying anything and show some respect to the 1 million (1,000,000 souls!) of Greeks that died in the WWII fighting for your war. Bend before them and show your respect.
As for the marbles. Simple as that. Elgin destroyed the monument showing less respect than even the lowliest of archaiological sites scavengers. He stole the marbles. Today you support this act. It is pure barbarism.
The marbles are not British, are not English, are not Elgins and are not of any British national museum. They are products of robbery and destruction. Redeem yourself by giving them. You will not get poorer and we will not get richer. It is nothing like that. It is a matter of order of ethics.
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"Arent all these far greater monuments to the Heritage of the Greeks than a few weathered lumps of rock?"
To you they r just rocks to the greeks they mean something. Thats why they should be returned cause ppl like u have no understanding of art whatsoever so its pointless that u even discuss the matter. Parthenon marbles r not just rocks they r battles, they r philosophy, they r beauty. But I suppose those words mean just as much as a rock to u AndyBugden. Its really pathetic that u continue to talk while not answering not even to 1 of the arguments. U just try to insult making no point around the question in hand. U have vanished in ur words the whole Hellenic civilization and what it stands for( Greek is not correct as a word ) ( the country is Hellas ). The fact that u today can speak and refer to history is because of those "poor" ppl that u so much hate. Otooman empire existed but so did the greek nation that UK so hard tried to wipe out from the face of the earth by supporting the ottoman empire during the greek revolution. Hope there were more Galipolis for ppl like u to grasp what the Turks were. Greece supported UK and the other powers in 1st and 2nd WW without regarding your bad behavior in the past and you still cant say 1 good word about this country. Turks on the other hand slaughtered u in Galipoli, stayed "neutral" in WW 2 and u still support as country a state that offered to the world civilization the meaning of the word genocide ( Hellenes from pontos, Armenians, Kurds ). Shame on u !!! I might not be greek but living here has made me respect what those ppl have given to the world and its a pitty not to show at least some respect to the ppl due to which today we have civilization and we can argue freely on a website. Hadnt it be for them Kings and Queens would still be our Tyrans cause democracy would never have been born or survived.
Its fortunate that the rest of the world regard those marbles as art and philosophy and not as "rocks" as u said cause thats what make ppl respect them more than Helgin did or the BM still does.
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Helgin was nothing more than a common thief and a blacktrader. An opportunist that so the chance of grabing something of value from a land under foreign rule. See the pictures and answer why would he take pieces from here and there. Why cut heads and bodies from those "rocks" as you called them and take some bodies and some heads and leave the rest here?
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The Parthenon frieze was whole and it was vandalized by Lord Elgin, over a 10 year period from 1801, this is a fact regardless of whether or not he had "permission" from the Turkish occupying force at the time. During that 10 year period pieces were sawed off the Parthenon and removed. Lord Elgin had intended them to decorate his own home (on his way back to England he even had the audacity to drop a piece off to a friend in Sicily, the Italians returned that missing piece to the Acropolis Museum last week). When Greece was once again free they requested the return of the Parthenon Marbles,.. the first time in 1829!
Vandalism like this shows a disrespect for a people and its culture. Can you imagine the head of a sculpture in Italy, the torso in Greece and the legs in France? The pieces are meant to be together, the artists never designed them to be apart! The Greeks have a beautiful new museum, the means to care for these sculptures properly and we should be happy to return them to their rightful place. It is shameful for us to continue pretending we "own" vandalized, stolen property. How would we feel if the Greeks had acquired a stone from Stonehedge? Nothing less than outraged.
Thank you Greece for "lending" them to us for the past 200 years, excuse us for being responsible for vandalizing this world wonder in Athens, for not respecting your culture & heritage, and for not returning what rightfully belongs to you.
WE CAN make this wrong right.
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Thas exactly the problem here..that the british museum paid elgin..Elgin was something that we call a thief..As he took from a state like turkey that they can not estimate 5the marbles the goods of a country which was weak that time ,greece,and put them in his home..He is a criminal..The british museum had to help in order to imprison him not to pay him..cooperating with a criminal is not a good thing...Greeks can go to the justice and ask for the marbles..
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do we know how much did he pay for these treasures ?i bet that the turks did nt known what they had,the greeks who knew where weak that period..cooperating with a person like elgin is a crime..especially for a museum ,,
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AndyBugden wrote (154) :Arent all these far greater monuments to the Heritage of the Greeks than a few weathered lumps of rock?
The most insulting thing I've ever read.
How much hate and fanaticism...
I cannot understand what AndyBugden is doing then here.
If it is something so trivial why are you supporting the maintenance in the BM?
And if Parthenon was built by Delian funds lets return the marbles to
Delians.
Parthenon is the place where idea and praxis were composed together.
AndyBugden I dont know what is your purpose and why are you in so much propaganda.
All the British tourists today that visited the new AM asked the return of the marbles. Two girls were almost crying realising the size of the problem that BM has cause. And any educated man know that what Elgin and BM did only 200 years ago, now would lead to jail.
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@AndyBugden
There are so many points, I don't think that I have as much time in my hands as you to elaborate but I will try to bring up some:
1. Your claim that Greece did not exist before the death of Alexander. The Hellenistic period did start after him but that term was used mainly because Alexander's military campaign resulted in the hellenization of a a great number of cultures that played a predominant part in the historical period. Whereas the term "Hellene" goes back to Hesiod and his Theogony. Was he Hesiod another storyteller or did he have some inside info on prehistoric Greece?
But even if we forget all about Hesiod, consider this:
" ". I trust you speak Greek{ that is the only safe way to study the Greek civilization, you can verify by reading the original texts and not some scholar's idea about them} and therefore know where this quote comes from? Long before Alexander's death...
And if you do speak Greek, another interesting link for you on the origin of the Greek nation:
http://www.agiasma.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=357
2. Your understanding of the Greek history of Asia Minor seems unclear... There have been Greek colonies in Asia Minor since at least 1000BC...
3. I insist your Delian League argument is a case of weak analogy but if you can't see that, there's not much I can do.
Hang on, maybe I can use another weak analogy to illustrate my point. I don't think you will particularly like this one but it's basically as relevant as your comparison of the Delian League case to the Parthenon Marbles issue. Here goes:
No marbles, No flame!!! {2012 is awfully close... ;-)}
There's a lot more but I need to go to bed now. I 'll try to come back to this tomorrow.
Goodnight.
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*Apologies for all the typos*
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AndyBugden, it is upsetting to be witnessing someone like you: flaunting your pseudo-expertise only to culminate your diatribe by calling the marbles "weathered lumps of rock". Arguing with you is futile if you cannot really comprehend the value of these "rocks" (which, by the way, although being plain rocks you wish which such fervour to retain...).
The marbles do not belong to the Greek state, perhaps do not even belong to modern Greeks, they belong to the Parthenon. If this is for you impossible to understand and accept, your 'knowledge' of Greek history, philosophy, etc. is tantamount to pointless drivel. The rest on Parthenon being restored as a pre-requisite for returning the marbles or on entry to the BM being free as opposed to the extortionate expenditure of EUR1.00 that the new Acropolis museum currently imposes on visitors are totally ridiculous. You seem to know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Just be honest: you don't care about morality or what is right or wrong; you simply wish to maintain the income from tourists visiting London and the BM and the associated prestige the marbles confer to their holder.
PS. Hippocrates was not from Samos (rather from Kos) but if I start nit-picking on your theories, everybody else will be yawning and I will be competing with you in pompous showing-off.
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come on .he does nt know philosophy or anything he is a troll who uses google..and with trolls u have not to answer..it is obvious he uses worlds like wuthering stones to make u angry..wake up and ignore him..that works with trolls.
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Oh, no my quotation was edited out.
Regarding the " " in comment 163, it was the original Greek quotation but since we can't post in Greek here, the translation would be "Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, apart from the Lacedaemonians" {Arrian 1.16.7}. The word used in the original text is "Hellenes". Now that was long before Alexander's death as I mentioned above...
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The Parthenon marbles among many other works of art heritage of all mankind in general and Greece in particular, in the British Museum are the result of chance in history to privilege in another era the then mighty British Empire, with the complicity of the disappeared Ottoman empire, to committ theft and loot, as the decoration of the Parthenon.
Any argument against his immediate return to their rightful owners is immoral and neo-imperial.
Viva Greece !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Parthenon marbles among many other works of art heritage of all mankind in general and Greece in particular, are in the British Museum by the result of chance in history of another era when then privileged mighty British Empire, with the complicity of disappeared Ottoman empire , to commit theft and looting, as the decoration of the Parthenon.
Any argument against his immediate return to their rightful owners is immoral and neo-imperial.
Greece Viva!
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AndyBugden: "There are so many points, I don't think that I have as much time in my hands as you to elaborate but I will try to bring up some:"
Really now? So a summury of ur arguments:
1. You dont have time for one of the most important antiquities in the world. I also work but I make time cause this case matters to me.
2. The marbles are just rocks as you said. No wonder you cant make time!!!
3. You told us where the word "hellenes" came from but not where the word "greeks" which was implored much later and not by the "Hellenes" themselves. Rest of us just found it easier to pronounce "greek" than "hellenes". By the way it was Phillip the 2nd who unified the "hellenes" and made them a nation. Thats the first time someone talked about the notion of a nation "ethnos". This notion was rediscovered much later by Napoleon.
4. Hellenes had colonies in Asia Minor. How come all the city names are "Hellenic"? And still used by the Turks ( smirni - Ysmir or the name of Istambul - Kostantinople which derives from what the Byzantines were shouting when Kostantinople was falling to the turks " " meaning "to the city" or a more free approach "defend the city".)
5. No marbles - No flame. What a statement for a country that guards your borders. Europe is lucky the Hellenic state doesn t open its borders to flud Europe with refuges from countries in war. Can you even imagine the impact they will have on the rest of Europe 2.000.000 illegal refuges that now reside in Hellas because Turkey doesnt honnor the treaties she signed? how about the problems that will be created in the safety of Europe. But no the hellenic state with its poor resources pays for them so some people here can call Hellas a "begar state". Not to mention the expensies on armament because of the peacefull neighbours here who still think that the Ottoman Empire still exists and still have claims on the Aegean sea. They have settled their sea borders to six miles in the Black Sea which they dont consider a "closed sea" but they refuse to honnor their signature in the treaty of sea law in 1952 which defines the sea borders at 6 miles and if the distance is smaller borders are defined on half distance. On the contrary Turkey sais that the Aegean sea is a special case and therefor she demands half of the Hellenic islands inhabited for the past few millenia by Hellenes. They also demand Dodekanisa because the treaty signed between Greece and Italy in 1947 was not properly protocoled by the U.N.. Give those people a brake they have supported UK in so many cases i dont even remember and what did they get in return? UK sold Cyprus to the Turks based on an old colonial treaty ( Cyprus is the only EU country still in state of war and an occupational army in its territory ), UK supported the junta regime in Hellas condeming the Hellenes to live in dictatorship and sending them back to the stone age. How is it possible for this state to really become independant from the economic point of view with this kind of polities imlored by some European states. And how can those states accuse Hellas for being a "begar" once those are the states who cause the problems or dont want to see them in the best case scenario.
6. UK refuses to help as an EU member state or as a state by itself to resolve the rediculus Macedonian question causin more tention in the Balkan Area. You admited already that Alexander the Great spread the Hellenistic civilization. Now why would he do that if he wasnt Hellenas. You support the further division of the Balkan states so there can be more pupet state for your state to play with. Those are people who live here not pupets.
Please make us all a favor and quit those verbalistic arguments. Say something serious and if you are unable forever hold your peace.
I m not impressed by your knowledge dont know if some here are cause its not only reading books that makes you literated but also living in a country knowing the people, the legaties and the history at first hand because you see it and feel it all around you.
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AndyBugden you claim Helgin took the marbles to save them.
1. how come the rest of the marbles are not destroyed? Can I take the Crown Jewels home to save them too or will I bbe concidered a thief. I promise when my money are depleted i ll sell them to a museum to save my pocket and then proclaim I saved them. They would have never been destroyed if the biggest criminal mind of all times didnt move them but had let them stand there in silence being witnesses of a Golden Era of the human mind.
2. The marbles belong to the building its part of it but of course thats something you cant accept (or see) cause you are blinded by hatriot.
3. Polution will destroy them in Athens whilst London has no polution. No heavy industries. Have you ever been on a traffic jam in M1? Athens has much less polution than the humid and smoky London.
4. The BM protects the marbles better. Really now? camera flashes are alowed? ( in none of the Hellenic museums camera flashes are allowed ) and none of the museums holds receptions in antiquities chambers as the BM does but after all to the BM those are just "rocks" arent they?
5. The BM has took care of them for 200 years. It washed the marbles with acid ( loooooooooooooool ) i wonder which super mind would ever think of that. I think its not Hellas who has to pay in the hypothesis of the return of the marbles but the BM for the damage done not only on the marbles but also on the tourism of Hellas. But nevermind that should this case appear I bet the Hellenic state would gladly pay to have them back cause to the hellenes those are not "rocks" and they matter more than money or life itself something that you are unable to understand.
6. Thievery can never be legalised and thus the solution of lenting the marbles if the Hellenic state recognises they belong to the BM is out of the question.
7. Hellas should return the antiquities of Egypt to Egypt. Well thats something Egypt has to demand but as far as I know there is no such demand cause those antiquities are not stolen but exchanged between the 2 states.
8. How would the gap from the missing marbles would be filled in the BM. Mr Samaras the minister of culture of the Hellenic State already answered by offering other antiquities such as statues and artifacts that can fill in the gap.
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Today more than ever we need to see what went wrong and we reached to the point of demoralization and the loss of any concept of ethics. Monuments such as Parthenon can be used as cornerstones of such a search. We need to redefine ourselves and find the courage to change ourselves and correct what we have done wrong. We can not act as kings of the world when there r people starving to death. We can not own the spirit and the mind of free people by condemning them to starvation and war for our own interests. We need to promote the best of our selves as humans and that can be nothing else than signs of excelence of the human mind. If we find a path to ethics and morals maybe then we will find the strength to see whats going on around us and try to correct it away from self interests.
The Monuments that can be used as cornerstones can not be mutilated and scattered around the world. they need to be whole in order for them to show us the full glory of the human mind and the full meaning that they carry through the ages.
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Last but not least someone said that the constitution of UK forbids the return of the marbles and this can not change. Well if it justifies thievery then it should change cause on those grounds the state can not punish thieves, cause they can equally claim that because the owner couldnt protect his property "I took it to protect it better". What a paradise for criminals would that be...
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I'm a young English man who is passionate about ancient history! I believe that we have moved into a new age and agree that the friezes should be repatriated to Greece and stored into their new museum!
And though I do not condone the actions of Lord Elgin we must always remember the context of history where it was the norm in those days. I find it extremely funny the twists of fate because had Elgin not taken the marbles they could potentially have been burnt or destroyed during the explosion of the Ottomon Empire's amunition which was stored in the Akropolis at the time! So in heinz sight it was the lesser of two evils!
The British Museum has done a wonderful job in preserving these artifacts and the Greeks should feel complemented to the fact they don't wish to relenquish them because they feel that ancient Greece is the father of Western Europe and thus they also have a spiritual connection to the marbles.
The only way this conflict is going to be settled is through compromise and though many don't wish to hear this, I believe the marbles should be shared by both museums, evenly!
The Greeks gave birth to them , and the British nurtured them during a time when the Greeks were incorpacitated, so both lay claim to the marbles!
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Dear Angloboy, can a piece of art be shared? its not a TV serie to say to be continued in Greece or respectivly in UK. The marbles dont belong neither to the BM nor to the greeks, they belong to Parthenon which is a world monument. They cant be appart cause that way noone can admire them fully.
History has proven that Elgin was the biggest of the 2 evils cause none explosion has happened and the way he mutilated them doesnt show he cared about saving them.
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Washing the marbles with acid to make them show whiter or the organization of receptions in the galery where they r displayed, or the use of camera flash dont so great signs of nurishment and care of the marbles so I would not accept this argument.
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If Lord Elgin wanted to save them he could demand from the Turks to move the arsenal from Parthenon or place an English guard there to guard the monument and not mutilate it. And dont tell me that the mighty British Empire could not impose anything to Ottoman empire cause its the british Empire that supported together with the Austro - hungarian empire the conservation of the Ottoman Empire by all means available ( economic, military etc).
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to Angloboy
At last a reasonable comment from the pro-BM side! Of course, we should take into account the norm in Elgin days..but this does not mean that the marbles were not stolen. Also the preservation of the marbles by the BM is an issue that is under debate, as explained clearly in previous comments. In the same rationale, of potential pending destruction- how would people in the UK feel if the Stonehedge pillars were take be force by the US for safekeeping during the WWII bombarding and then they refused to send them back ??
Sharing the marbles is out of the question. The Acropolis museum must have the full set of the marbles reunited. Perhaps technology is the solution forward- the BM could proceed and create a cutting-edge technologically-wise virtual reality presentation possibly exploring other possibilities that technology provides to explain the historical facts to its visitors while displaying copies of the whole original set of the articles. The British museum instead of competing with the Acropolis museum should rather try to diversify what is on offer for their visitors. The British museum will regain its dignity and potentially even attract more visitors by offering an alternative modern way of displaying artifacts and even providing a virtual tour along the Parthenon and ancient Athens..thus showing the way forward through innovation and not through regression!
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Fristly I am British. I have had a passion for ancient history of many cultures (including my own). I grew up with books filled of pictures of many things I long to see in my life, though woefully I have yet to see any of them except the few things in the British museum and I have felt privalged to see them. (I still hope to be able to travel one day, but maybe when this recession is over *sigh*)
The sad fact is that as a British person studying history you have to learn to live with the guilt of what we've done over the years. The superioty feelings our ancestors had over everything else. Thankfully our arogance is at last starting to slip away, though still too slowly for my liking. We are small fish in a massive pond. In 'treasure finding' terms we competed with our lifetime rivals in France and Germany to get the biggest and best pieces and to once more prove that we were the best.
Much of our own history has been lost by our unknowing ancestors. Many burial mounds here were detroyed in the fanatical searches for gold and treasure, other 'lesser' contents of them ignored, lost. We treated other countries history the same, no one new any better it was a learning curve, admittedly a painful one to now look back on.
The days of our Empire are long gone and its time to see ourselves all as equals. I frequently argue with my family about why we should join the EU properly and used the Euro, but there is still a large feeling of 'the pound is too importent', other countries sacrificed their own currencies for it, why is ours so special? It's really not.
And to end this before I wander too far off topic. The world is a changing place, we have enjoyed the marbles while they have been here, but they are not simpley a piece of art to be sold to the highest bidder. They are culture and heritage, no one has the right to withold that from the people. I hope the children of Greece can one day see what their ancestors achieved in the past and that it gives them hope for the future
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" 117. At 4:39pm on 21 Jun 2009, Blacktrader wrote:
"Its also worth pointing out that the Turks were grinding the parthenon sculptures to dust to make cement and if Elgin hadn't taken them (at considerable cost) they'd have been lost forever. If the Greeks recognised this fact rather than acuse us of 'theft' I'd be more inclined to support a return of them."
really Peter_Sym? and how come the rest of Parthenon still exists?"
Most of the parthenon is a few inches high. It was used a gunpowder store in the 16th century and blew up. Thats why its in ruins- its a fraction of what it was. Equally the largest part of the marbles are in the British museum but over 50% have been lost forever.
People like you also choose to ignore that the nazis first bombed Athens and then looted great art from across Europe. Much of this has never been returned. Equally the Greeks have FINALLY built a museum for the marbles but if Elgin hadn't taken then and IF they'd suvived Goerings attention 100 years of Athens traffic pollution would have done permanent harm to them.
If it hadn't been for Elgin NO ONE would be able to see these marbles.
Its also worth pointing out that entry to the British museum is free. Thats more than can be said for the Parthenon or any other major musuem or historical site in Greece.
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@Blacktrader
I think you need to go back and reread comment 163. It was made by me and not by AndyBugden. Yes, I don't have the time to write whole dissertations here to argue on points made by some previous posters including AndyBugden- I will not be apologizing for that!
"No marbles No flame". You have obviously misinterpreted this one. I just tried to illustrate what a weak analogy is. I argued that AndyBugden made one with regards to the Parthenon Sculptures and the money that was used to build them. For some reason, he felt that because the Delian League's money was used - one could say forcibly/deceptively- we, Greeks, should give up the argument that the Parthnon Sculptures were looted from the Acropolis and therefore unlawfully residing in the British Museum today. In my effort to illustrate what constitutes a weak analogy, I was telling AndyBugden that his argument resembles that of many Greeks: If you don't give us back the marbles, we will not give you the flame for the Olympics. It was meant in a tongue in cheek way. Some people in Greece feel we, as a nation, have every right to play the Olympics card but I think that's just a very poor analogy and all the things that our ancestors stood for would go out the window if we even entertained such a scenario.
Let me just say, I have lived in the UK for 7 years and for a long time I used to consider London my second home. I have a lot of respect for the British and I 'm very glad to see most British posters here and elsewhere are on our side. In time, I 'm confident the British Museum will see reason.
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I'm disappointed that some Greeks have not failed to seize the chance to give inaccurate information regarding the Turks even in this blog. I wish it was a fellow Greek that corrected them in the first place, but I might as well clarify a few points here:
#157 wrote:
"Hope there were more Galipolis for ppl like u to grasp what the Turks were."
OK, let's examine Gallipoli in order to "grasp what the Turks were."
In Gallipoli, the Turks were a defensive force against the Allies, which were on a campaign to capture Istanbul. If one of these days the aliens decide to invade your home, what will be your response, #157? My my, those aliens should not be fooled and better grasp who you are as a person, should you happen to defend yourself!
#157 wrote again:
"Greece supported UK and the other powers in 1st and 2nd WW without regarding your bad behavior in the past and you still cant say 1 good word about this country. Turks on the other hand slaughtered u in Galipoli, stayed "neutral" in WW 2"
"Turks on the other handp[...]?" I do not even understand why you had to introduce the comparison between Turkey and Greece here for the British reader referred as 'you' in your post.
To the British reader: if you ever find yourself engaged in a discussion that involves the Turks and the Greeks somehow, please just keep in mind that we the Turks have fought against you in Gallipoli, whereas the Greeks were your allies both in WWI and WWII. Most importantly, do not ever forget that we the Turks do not give generous points to your entries in Eurovision as much as the Greeks do.
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#171 wrote:
"Not to mention the expensies on armament because of the peacefull neighbours here who still think that the Ottoman Empire still exists and still have claims on the Aegean sea."
Please show me one governmental document, which officially proves that Turkey has a goal set to revive the Ottoman Empire. Of course we do have a small minority of ultranationalist lunatics, but you can find them in Greece as well, arguing with hopes of reviving the Byzantine Empire that the western and northeastern Turkey should be seized by the Greeks. Yet, I do not blame and point out all Greeks out there for harbouring hostile sentiments.
Have you ever given it a thought that the idea of 'neighbour threat' could well be a response to the expenses on armament, and not vice versa?
#171 again wrote:
"they refuse to honnor their signature in the treaty of sea law in 1952 which defines the sea borders at 6 miles and if the distance is smaller borders are defined on half distance. On the contrary Turkey sais that the Aegean sea is a special case and therefor she demands half of the Hellenic islands inhabited for the past few millenia by Hellenes."
The Turkish and Greek sea borders in the Aegean sea are indeed 6 miles. Turkey has NO claims for the Greek islands in the Aegean, irrespective of the fact that whether they are inhabited by the Greeks or not (check the defined Turkish borders in our constitution or simply check a map if you still hold onto your prejudices at this moment).
However, it's the Greeks that want to extend their borders in the Aegean Sea to 12 miles. Thereby Greece is rejecting the status quo of the Aegean Sea according to the treaty of Lausanne, which Greece herself signed in 1923. If the Greek borders are to be extended to 12 miles, the international waters of the Aegean will become rather Greek; thus, Greece can then monitor, control, block and tax the international ships that leave or enter the Mediterranean and Black Sea via the Aegean.
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#133 wrote:
"In the Britsh Museum thay are safe.There is no guarantee the Turks won't be back."
I don't think any of my explanations here will thaw your prejudice against the Turks, but I invite you to the international opera and ballet festival in Aspendos Theatre, Turkey.
http://www.aspendosfestival.org/Default.aspx?Dil=02
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Sorry for misinterpreting your answer Peter_Sym!!! I appologise for that.
meridian_star: There are no more excuses the arguments used by the BM have fallen as the Berlin Wall as a Cambridge professor said yesterday ( Antony Ston... dont remember ). UK must return the marbles that Ottomans and Nazi s respected far more than Elgin did. As for treasures taken and never returned let me remind u that the Vatican, Italy and the museum of Heidelberg returned all the marbles exhibited in their museums once and for all to the New Museum of Acropolis no questions asked making and indirect statement to the BM of what it should do. May be the Head of States did nt come to the opening but they sent an even louder message of what should be done to the rest of the marbles held illegaly by the BM. As to the free entrance of the BM see my comments above. greece doesnt recieve money from ex colonies ( Australia, Canada, etc ) if Greece had colonies there would also be no fee. But the price of 1 euro is really rediculous to even mention it. 17.000 tickets were presold before the opening of the museum that reaches the astonomical number of 17.000 euro income from yesterday till December.
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@ CalliopeIris:
Sorry for misinterpreting your answer Peter_Sym!!! I appologise for that.
that was ment for you CalliopeIris!!!
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'Shouldn't the question be how do we deal with culture in a globalised world;' to me, this is a very patronizing point. we all know how private collectors acquire their works of art and how then they 'donate' them to museum. The Getty Museum was a similar example. So what should we do? Look at art at an international perspective? IN this case, shouldn;t the British museum look at it at an international perspective rather than making Greece admit BM are the owners? What about joint ownership?
This is not about greek propaganda as Helena Smith (a very unprofessional journalist) wrote in the Guardian either. It is about the British saying all these years that the Greeks didn't have a museum, falsely raising hopes that upon the construction of a museum, the marbles would be then returned. If the BM never intended to do that, they should have clearly said that from the beginning.
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# 186
No problem!
Perhaps you can explain this comment though:
"greece doesnt recieve money from ex colonies ( Australia, Canada, etc ) if Greece had colonies there would also be no fee"
Are you seriously suggesting that British musuems ars subsidised by Australia & Canada? Trust me.. they're not. Britain sends huge amounts of money in foreign aid to our former colonies (especially Africa), not vice-versa.
In fact given that Greece is a net recipient from the EU and Britain a net contributor Britain in part subsidises your museums.
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I imply that the state of UK subsidies the museums because of the riches it recieves from those countries
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#190. Australia, Canada etc do not give us a penny. Its 2009 not 1909. We don't have an empire anymore, and we don't get money from 1/3rd of the world. Instead we pay £40M a day more than me get back to the EU and pay out huge amounts of aid to our former African colonies (£5m today to Zimbabwe).
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Blacktrader, if you bothered to look into the way UK museums work, you'd find out that they actually have rely more and more on private donations & funding, certainly not on the "riches" received from the Commonwealth (hence the private parties you seem to hate so much without, I suspect, having checked whether the guests cause any harm to the artefacts).
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I'm a little tired of tinpot countries attacking Britain to distract attention from problems at home, and because they know we won't retaliate in kind. If the Greek government was serious about archaeology, instead of trying to ride a tide of nationalism, it would take more care of the hundreds of neglected sites outside Athens.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts_and_culture/8110091.stm
Image 7.
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tinpot countries?hahaha..Do you want to see which country has more problems?England or Greece?And stop the idiot excuses..greece asks for the marbles for years and years not a new case..but this is the time the museum is ready..
I dont like the arrogance some british people have..
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Is this to discuss the repatriation of the parthenone marbles?
Why are you talking about greeks and turks and all this rubbish here.
If this is more imprtoant, why are we not taking about other stolen items.
I am sorry, could somebody please update me about the Koh-i-Noor?
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I think they should go back to Greece and I think they the whole argument is ridiculous. I have family that are Greek and its Athens is my most favourite place in the world. The stones should be back where they belong, along side the Acropolis, where they came from in the first place. Sometimes I'm embarrassed to call myseld British for stupid reasons like this. It's all a pride thing. They are being wasted being kept in Britain.
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As for priane the fact that turkey tries to win things in agean and all the time creates problems is real..All the time..I do nt know if they do it to prove that they exist cause they are a country out of eu ,no many visas ,etc in their own world..but all my life i hear all time about turkey ..And now we are speaking about the marbles and there is a turk person iof course..you insult yourselves trying to be everywhere nobody else..
As for the gold ans silver statue of athena which the last time was seen in turkey..do nt ask what happened to it..they melted it and made coins?do nt they?the word barbarism is enough?
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cookie the greek turks are always everywhere and i was sure that they would be here shouting ..and i am not an oracle or something..they just want to have all the attention but it is tiring..
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yes, emelie the museum is beautiful i saw the photos..and the ticket is 1 euro by the end of the year..symbolic ticket..the tickets are all sold for this week ..you can buy also in net
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Sorry I forgot to mention:
"the parthenon marbles" are "greek" or hellenic (as you whish!), were greek and will be greek.
There is unfortunatly no argument about it, what ever has happended after they have been made and put in the Parthenon fries.
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Rofl tiresome excuses in a labyrinth of lies and half told truths. The excuses of this case are just pathetic. The whole world supports the idea of the return of the marbles not only some crazy sovinists in Greece ( really how many Brits speak anything else but english? how sovinistic is this? ) its only a matter of time till some staburn people change their mind under the universal demand and return the marbles where they belong. Greece would never be a tincan state if it had depleted the riches of other countries for so many years and profited from them. What today britain is own it to the africans, indians etc that worked to death for their colonial bosses and even if you pay the budget of your country for the rest of the life of earth nothing can bring back not only the sources taken but also the lives that where lost during the colonial period. Unless to you the life of a person has a price. Cause to me its invalueable.
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I dont know if I will be alive to see the marbles returning to their home but it will happen have no doubt about it.
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the british museum is free?the greek what is ut ?with one euro ticket?are you kidding?it is obviously symbolic ..or do you think that they want to gain money with this ticket?
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marry-ann you are right and I think the same, but here we should talk about "our" marbles and we should not let us insult.
It is funny to hear that greece is a tinpot country, is it woth to argue?
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#202. I had 2 Great Uncles die defending Greece. One is buried in the cemetary at Malame on Crete, one has no grave. He fell somewhere outside Athens as the Germans advanced. Rather than abuse us as thieves and colonialists (and I seem to remember a Greek called Alexander who created rather a large empire too... ) you may wish to remember quite how many Brits died for Greece, not only in WW2, but also in your original war of independence.
I was quite violently abused by a Greek woman when I visited the Parthenon last time who accused me of stealing and vandalising the marbles. Apparently she was unable to tell the difference between a Scottish 20-something year old in 2003 and Lord Elgin. I can't promise you the return of the marbles but I CAN suggest that if you ask nicely, recognise the fact that the marbles only exist because Britain has preserved them for 200 years you might have a better chance of getting them back. People rarely respond nicely to insults.
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well when someone has sold a treasure that nobody can estimate the worth for few money ,melting and destroying treasures and then he is here to blame the country which asks for its treasures just insults himself..i will not speak with him..
As for the parthenon and the nazis ,etc the sculptures are still there..nothing is destroyed..
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Blacktrader this is the point!
I belive the same
IT WILL HAPPEN no doubt about it
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i do nt think that peter sym is a british ..many informations about greek places and history andhe wrote the word cemetery wrong..maybe turk again
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I know this reply is not relevant to the subject but I would like to tell to Peter_Sym
The British did not fight to defend Greece in world war II, they just chose strategically to confront Hitler's army in Greece due to its location and the potential support they would receive from the royal navy + to support their colony in Egypt and the vital, for them, Suez canal
A couple of facts : % of human losses in terms of total population, UK : 0,94%, Greece : 4,31%.
60% of the large Greek merchant fleet destroyed and 2,500 sailors died on their journey from the UK to USA and back in order to provide life saving supplies to England.
Greece entered the war and defended itself and was liberated by its own partizans. From the moment that the Germans invaded Greece, the British were just trying to escape going southwards and chose to fight in Crete because it was the most strategic location serving their own wider geopolitical interests
Once Greece was liberated the English assisted greatly in the breaking of the civil war resulting in thousands of lives being destroyed and leaving the countries in further ruin and disarray following the WWII. The British fought alongside the Greeks fascists who had collaborated with the Nazis in order to jointly exterminate their former British allies, the Greek partizans many of which were affiliated to left wing parties or the communist party...
And let's not forget what British colonial involvement brought to the island of Cyprus...
so please save the nonsense about fighting for the freedom of Greece and its people..if Britain did in fact something in favour for Greece, it did it just because it may have coincided at the time with its general geopolitical interests in the area...nothing more, nothing less...
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#209. I'm British. Half Scottish, Half Geordie (NE England). I dated two Greek girls when I was younger (One from Larissa, one from a small village in the White Mountains of Crete) and nearly married one. I know the country very well and speak a little of the language.
The fact that any Brit who IS well informed about your nation and knows first hand the Greek version of your history is dismissed as being a Turk (the 'ancient enemy') masquerading as a Brit says a lot about the mindset of certain Greeks.
When you claim 'Nothing is destroyed' refering to the Parthenon you simply show yourself as foolish. 26 of the original Panels were destroyed before Elgin arrived in Greece and much of the structure of the Parthenon is in ruins. The roof was blown off it in 1687 when gunpowder the turks had stored it in was hit by a venetian cannonball. More damage has been done by Athens frequent earthquakes. As for the nazi's- where's the Amber room from St Petersburg? Much of Europes art treasures were seized by the nazis and much has never been seen again.
I also feel my original point is worth repeating- when will the archaeological Musuem in Athens return its halls of Egyptian artifacts to Egypt? It seems a reasonable point that if Britain is expected to return Greek artifacts to their original home then Greece should do the same.
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This should not have deviated from its original discussion but as usual detractors will lead any topic with Greece to the usual Greece & the surrounding Balkans issues (make people fight and talk about the topic).
I am Greek and I do believe the Greek state is a tinpot country. I am not defined by it and my long history - unlike most European nations - is not linked inherently to it and neither to any other state defined by any inbred monarch or any religion. I saw people talking about "Greeks" and "Hellenes" and trying to say that Athenians were... "Attics" as if to try and find the ownership and I laughed (were Londoners really English? Where Allamans, Teutons & Germans Deutch people?).
The Parthenon is a temple, heritage to all the world not just us Greeks. And ancient (and medieval but you just do not know it) Greek culture is a heritage to all the world not just us Greeks, especially to Europe, western and eastern. However, I will be one of the few Greeks that will deviate from the common view and state that the return of the marbles is not exactly our main national scope right now, we have other things pending, e.g. the recognition of the genocide of 1,5 million Greeks in Minor Asia (these are the slaughtered, another 1,5 million fled), the ethnic cleansing of northern Cyprus and the division of the island.
If it really was an issue of outmost importance then we should ask also for the return of Venus of Milo by the French (I think I told you up how French soldiers got the marble by murdering the protesting locals and by breaking the statue - barbarism equal to that of Elgin). It is just that the marbles have become by now some short of symbolism and that is why Greeks are insistent. Realistically we cannot call for the return of all the millions of Greek antiquities from the worlds' museums cos that will practically empty the bulk of their exposed items!
However what about the British? What on earth is so important to them considering that piece of art? They have only to gain than to lose by giving them. Are they afraid that everyone is going to ask things back? So what? Germans gave most things back after WWII and did not feel bad about it, Britain will not do that just because it happened to win the WWII?
There is a difference. A statue is a statue and by nature mobile. A frieze is a frieze and by nature static. You can take out a frieze only by demolishing the whole structure and that is what Elgin did. We know that back then archaiology did not even exist and perhaps barbaric acts like Elgins' gave birth to this field, different eras, different ethics. However today it is universally seen as theft, even British do no doubt about that no matter if later the British Museum paid to get them.
The return of the marbles is an act of higher symbolism and that is why it has to be done. Parthenon since its birth was not a temple for the Athenians but its presence resonated throughout the Hellenic world. Later generations revered the temple. Even in Ottoman times, Greeks respected these temples and you know that by the fact that the British and French could not find local workers to do the job despite proposing to near-famine poor people double and triple wages, finally finding criminals (often, not Greeks) to do the dirty job. It is the theft, the destruction, the barbarism, the murder, the abduction (... in the night!) that lies behind these pieces of art that we have to keep in mind: the return of the marbles will provide that symbolism of justice.
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the fact that many things were distroed before elgin means nothing..parthenon and acropolis stays 5there fir 2000 years it is already a miracle..the fact that elgin helped to destroy the monument is nothing to be admired..ok?As for the nazis they were the nazis..elgin was a nazi or something?
I do nt think that anything would be destroyed if elgin have left them there..they stayed there for 1800 years without problem..thats just predictions ..the fact that elgin destroyed the marbles is a fact..and give them back in the end to see which of them are in better state..
i am sure you are a turk or even a greek..not a british..
as for the egyptian artifacts..Well they are not the marbles of parthenon..if they were the egyptians would ask them back..there egyptian and greek artifacts in many museums all over the world..they do nt have all the same importance..but if you haveb a problem with this we can send them to turkey ,england ,larisa,wherever you want..
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Peter_Sym: "I also feel my original point is worth repeating- when will the archaeological Musuem in Athens return its halls of Egyptian artifacts to Egypt? It seems a reasonable point that if Britain is expected to return Greek artifacts to their original home then Greece should do the same."
I will say it once more in case you didnt read it Egypt never asked for those artifacts to return there if they will ask I m sure they will be returned, but its a case of mutual exchange between Greece and Egypt and has nothing to do with the marbles of Parthenon. The Egyptian artifacts were never stolen from Egypt. I m half Egyptian myself and I m in position to know that.
As for te excuses for WW II where were the British when Italy invaded Greece or when Germany invaded Greece. I dont see any British fighting in the forts of Rupel at the Metaxa fortifications in northern Greece, nor was there any RAF defending the fortifications by air raids.
Maleme has fallen due to the hesitation of an allied officer who didnt attack at night to take over the airport of Maleme fearing it was strongly defended while there was only a German platoon.
I dont say that there were no British fighting and giving their blood but it wasnt for Greece they fought it was for the whole world and the threat of fascist victory over Europe. Russians, British, Americans, Greeks, French and so many others payed the cost of freedom from Nazi occupation but they fought against that not to liberate any country in particular.
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I would also like to agree with the remarks made by E_Nikolaos_E for the purposes of the help Greece recieved during those years and the biased intervention of the British after the WW II which afflicted traumas in Greek society severe enough that are still to be healed.
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To Cdk-athens
You will see my comment has been removed - the BBC hates anything which rings of the truth. And you did not see the irony of my remarks so missed the point entirely. If you are Greek, you should be familiar with irony. It's there in the literature of ancient Greece. Greece was the cradle of western civilisation but the baby has to grow up sometime. Your comment suggests this is not about to happen soon.
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#214. In 1941 Britain was fighting for her very survival. Despite that we withdrew planes from North Africa just as Rommel arrived and from England when we ourself were being bombed nightly. Whether you think it was adequate or not ignores the point that two of my close relatives are still in Greece, 60 years after they died in battle there. If you're interested 1 died with the 1st battalion Royal Tank regt and as I far as I know burnt to death in his tank defending a pass North of Athens. The other died with with anti-tank gun crew serving with Northumberland Hussars (a regt I served with 15 years ago) on Crete. I visited his grave during the commemeration of the 50th anniversary. I'm glad you say "I dont say that there were no British fighting and giving their blood" because there's 2000 Commonwealth dead on Crete alone next to 4000 dead German Paras. I can say that the Cretans I knew were a damn side more grateful than mainland Greeks for our sacrifice.... THEY didn't plant a bomb and try and kill Churchill or attack British troops (my grandfather was on sentry duty Xmas eve 1944 when ELAS attacked his men)
#213. I you still think I'm a turk I'd better not go plane spotting in Greece.........
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I am really sad about how yet another blog took its usual route....You post a topic that supposedly intelligent people could discuss on certain issues and post their thoughts and you find yourself reading thing that are way out of the context.
The topic here people is the returning or not of the parthenon marbles..It is not about greece nor u.k. and for sure not about the geopolitical games of greece-turkey or the history that each one of you has been reading in his country.having spent 7 years of studies in the u.k., made me appreciate the way b.b.c. is always standing at the opposite side of things and not allowing itself to enter any sort of games, regardless of the occasion. and although i believe that it is a privilege to have the freedom to express ourselves, no one gives us the right to be as stubborn as some of the blog-writers here, exercising this right that they have, by using a ''mine-is-bigger-than-yours'' attitude.
Having said that, I would like to state my own opinion on this issue.
Sentimentally, as being greek, i am in favor of the returning of the marbles. But despite some of you, I have a pretty good case for that (because that is how you place an argument).
Throughout the course of history, it has been a common practice for the winning side of a war, to obtain cultural elements of the falling side, to glorify their victory, Just because the list goes on and on I am not going to fall into the trap and start naming. The difference in the Parthenon case, and I am sure in many others too that perhaps I am not aware of is that, these ''objects'' that were...xm let's say for the time being ''carefully'' removed, were part of a specific architectural element( I am not here to value Parthenon as a building or as a symbol of any short of ideal. I am simply talking about it as a single architectural element, a standing monument that lasted for all these years). An architectural element that is , to this date, still standing there. Those marbles are not some marbles that were used for ''some building, somewhere in time'', that is no longer there. So we are not talking about a government, or an entire nation, demanding a piece or a fragment of their collective past. These marbles, are not some objects that have long lost their context. They have a context that is still there, though damaged by the ages and man. You see, the issue is not whether to return a fragment of time, back to its modern day sovereign country, but to unify one of the few architectural element of the past that we still have the chance to do so, regardless of its glory,size and magnitude.
thank you all for taking the time to read my post here...
dimitris
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Hi dimitris- thats a very good point, well made and without the insults that have so annoyed me. If Greece gets the marbles back it will by this sort of reasoning and tone and not by abuse.
HOWEVER. The Marbles are never going to be put back in the Parthenon where they were taken from will they? The best that will happen is that they get displayed in a climate controlled musuem next to their original home. If they were put back in the ruins of the Parthenon they wouldn't last for long.
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What I read on this blog??
The marbles are toys?
Must pay the British Museum because care the marbles so many years?
The Greeks are eronics because they want their history to return home?
As Greeks we are very proud of our history and what we offer in the world with science, philosophy and freedom. Some probably can not understand why you have not just history as a nation!
Our history is not a game! The British Museum, cleans the marble with a common detergent and hard floor brushes like clean their toilets!
The marbles are stolen ... Elgin never took command of the Turkish Sultan to eradicate the marbles from the Parthenon, only to study.
The Greek National Archaeological museum has some exhibits of Egyptian private collection and has agreed to return.
The Acropolis is a global symbol of freedom and culture and should respect by return property back.
sorry for my bad English
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#200
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to show you how beautiful the museum is. I was just looking at the pictures and when looking at image 7 I just felt something is wrong.
Cant you see something missing? Don't you feel bad about this?
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I will not judge the maintenance procedures followed in British Museum or in other museums like Louvres or Ermitaz, I think specialists there are not exactly into destroying the artifacts! But saying "if you take them you must pay for maintenane" is ridiculous cos Greeks may respond "Ok, we will pay but you will put to court for vandalism, archailogical destruction and theft and... murder (...for French)". And given the fact that we talk about the Parthenon the bill will quickly rise to much more than 200 years of maintenance.
Think of it coldly. In Britain this piece is exhibited as a relic of British colonial past, back in those good ol' days when being British (same for French) alone was a passport of doing anything on will... going in, bribing, destroying, stealing and killing with impunity... and all that not in any colony but even in foreign countries. It is exactly that what the marbles-in-British-museum represent (and not only them but really a long list of artifacts, Greek, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Mexican etc.).
Asking back all these artifacts will practically mean the closure of these museums in their present form, this is not the point, afterall these museums gave birth to modern archaiology. But for some artifacts of higher symbolism it really has to be done. I think Egyptians too are on the same lines, as far as I know their leading archaiologist, Dr. Hawas, does not ask all Egyptian artifacts back but selectively some of really high symbolic importance (mummies for example, it is the minimoum). Greeks are just doing the same thing. It is not any extreme demand, it is the minimoum. And it is not for the money (tourists would anyway visit the Acropolis and the whatever museum next to it - the 1-euro fee is too symbolic in a quite expensive country where cafés serve coffee at 4 euros). And it is not that Britain will lose tourists or something, London never suffered from such a problem, and certainly noone will say "if there are no Parthenon marbles in the British museum I do not go" - you go to a museum not for 1 but for a collection of artifacts, most people who are fond of history & archaiology are more interested by the "smaller items", the others who go to see the known ones are just to say "we saw them" actually are the uninformed and thus not even aware of what "known ones" exist in the museum before going. The loss for the British museum is more of sentimental value, that of loosing a flagship piece of art, understandable but then right now it is not to be addressed: so many years they gave excuses such as maintenance, now that maintenance is there is no other excuse: it is a fitting time to make the gesture.
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#222. You've never been to the British museum have you? I can tell because it has nothing to do 'with our colonial past'. We don't display the Elgin marbles to gloat about our past but because they're beautiful and historical works of art that are important to the entire history of mankind.
You show great ignorance of these early acheologists. The caliphs in Egypt 200 years ago had no interest in their ancient past. It was pre-Islamic and they didn't care. They burnt mummified cats as firewood! If British and French archaeologists hadn't removed and preserved so much it would have been lost forever. More recently take the Banyan Buddhas in Afghanistan- blown to bits by the Taliban because they were pre-islamic and lost forever. Shame Elgin hadn't taken those too- they'd still be in one bit.
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On balance, the arguments for the return seem to be irefutable. The counter-arguments have been poor, emotional and, on occasion, downright provocative.
A point of information. the scholar management of the British Museum, have strong careerist interests in maintaining the curatorial control of the Parthenon Marbles. There may not be an admission charge (although for years under Margaret Thatcher there was). Remember, every postcard sold (not cheap) and every photograph of the Marbles appearing in any book anywhere in the World is "By kind permission of the Trustees of the BM' ie copyright. No book with photographs or illustrations can be sold without the BM making money.
Return the 'Marbles' and the Museum would experience a massive reduction in its income and status.
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Some here feel insulted from some arguments. Welcome to the club my dear friends.
Nothing here is personal. I wont attack anyone in person but I will attack the arguments he/she uses. The conservation of those marbles started to become reality only after laser technology was implored by the BM and thats only the last few years. So the rest of the years the conservation was done by means that would not protect the artifact.
I said nothing about giving the marbles back to Greece but back to its owner the building of Parthenon itself. And even if they are put in a museum they will be under the light they should be and in the context the should be.
I m for the return of all artifacts to their place of origin even if that means emptying temporarily some museums. My opinion is that all countries have wonderfull things to show in their museums and the visitors would be able to live in the history of the country they visit.
Take as an example the Memorial of Verdun, or the Ossuary of Verdun, the porta negra in Trier, the roman wall in UK ( u didnt bring down the Hadrian wall to put it in the BM ), the Van Gogh museum in Amsterdam, the fortresses in Bora Bora from the WW II, the pyramids, Assouan, Louxor, Alexandria all those places and many more that are impossible to name just in few words i m writting now can stand alone and make us feel the chilling touch of history when we visit them. Ever been in Ossuary of Verdun, or the Museum of the Battle of Verdun? can u even imagine seeing all those things in another place than where they really happened? Would u ever feel the fear of the french soldiers in Fort Douaumont or Fort de Vaux if those where moved to a museum as rocks? You can still smell and feel fear and death and gas and flamethroughers fumes in there even if nearly a century has passed since 20 February 1916 when it all started. Would you ever be able to see the devastated nature ( broken trees and ground ) and the destruction man can cause ( 2.000.000 bombs have fallen in the 10 first hours of the attack ) with his stupid wars away from this place? Have you ever walked in those trenches? ever been in the trenches "de ballionette" to see people burried alive from the bomb fallen while they where attacking? See the 9 destroyed villages that were never inhabited again? Yet although many things and remains are in museums its the whole setting that makes you understand hitory and how those people felt those days.
I used the example above so noone can call me any fanatic but I think I made my point quite clear. Artifacts are not just piecies to be exhibited to any museum. They have a life of their own they tell a story on their own. Not the BM story nor the Acropolis museum story but the story of the mind and body behind them. And for this story to be told right and understood by the people who "hear" it those artifacts must always be at the place of their birth. Its not the same to see a statue of Appolo in a dark room and under the sun. The statue will not tell you any story in the room. Its under the sun that it will reviele his secrets. I hope the Verdun example I gave ( although i m not a narrator ) can make you all understand what I mean.
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To see the sun in Athens and smell the thym and oregano that grows on the Acropolis rock can take you back in time and open your eyes as to how those people gave birth to art, architecture, theater, philosophy, democracy, sciences. Athens might be a modern city with huge problems today but when standing 300 meters of Parthenon and having the freezes infront of you if you close your eyes and let your senses work you will travel back in time where all those wonderfull things happened. And believe me the sensation of this trip can not be compared to any feeling in any other museum displaying the artifacts of Acropolis. If you have an open mind you will defenatelly feel the difference.
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I went to the New Acropolis Museum yesterday and I prepared a video of the Parthenon exhibits (3rd floor). It made me sad. Feel free to disregard my comments and focus on the video itself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSRQqQWlCWw Thanks
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I have no problem with "giving back" anything - so long as viewing the pieces of razzed up stone is FREE for all. Culture should be free, literally and financially. The stones are actually more European than specifically Greek. Give 'em back, but no one should ever have to pay money to see them.
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byrite : " no one should ever have to pay money to see them. "
I AGREE TOTALY. Museums should be free for all at all times.
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On the BM homepage you can read:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/the_museum/news_and_press_releases/statements/the_parthenon_sculptures.aspx
"3. Parthenon Sculptures in other museums
The following institutions also hold sculpture from the Parthenon:
Musée du Louvre, Paris
Vatican Museums
National Museum, Copenhagen
Kunsthistorisches Museum,Vienna
University Museum, Würzburg
Glyptothek, Munich"
May I correct that:
"Italy returns marble to Greece"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7634906.stm
"Vatican sends back Parthenon head"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7717269.stm
"Swede gives back Acropolis marble"
"...Heidelberg University (Germany!) handed back a marble heel from the Acropolis' Parthenon."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6138214.stm
"University of Heidelberg returns fragment of Parthenon sculptures to Greece permanently"
http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/press/news/news06/2601par_e.html
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veIrKOxh5yw&feature=related
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I don't get it. Why BBC is not allowing me to type the Speech of Melina Mercuri to the British audience of Oxford Union which was broadcasted by BBC in 1986? I am looking forward to receiving moderator's thorough explanation not tomorrow not after a week, but today!
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http://www.parthenonuk.com/articles/melina.pdf
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The Museum at the foot of the Acropolis is now open. Magnificent and state of the art.
Heads of government, UNESCO and many others were there. The majority of world academic opinion would support the return of the Marbles to the site of their creation.
One representative of the British Museum's Trustees was present. No change in the Museum's policy.
If she wants a museum to show the 'interconnectedness' of cultures then the excellent plaster casts would do just as well with a multimedia enhancement. One doesn't need the originals to do that. A good TV programme does it better.
I suspect she doesn't want to understand that the Marbles are much more than an exhibit to illustrate a theory but should be displayed in the context of their genesis.
I suspect status and financial arguments are the true motivation for this particular Trustee.
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blefuscu.. if you don't have financial problems, give us the marbles and make a multimedia enhancement in your museum.. you have better technology than Greeks..
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blefuscu read my comments #225 and #226 may be then you can understand why the return is important.
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Clearly the marbles were not acquired by Lord Elgin in a way we would now accept. Britain has surely very little right to keep them and the new Acropolis Museum is excelent - the right context for their display. They should therefore be returned.
But - as a working archaeologist I get the chance to compare the nitty-gritty of the way in which many countries look after their past. Nobody is perfect. Some take great care of their remains, some take almost none and most come somewhere between - looking after only remains which are spectacular and atractive to tourists or sites which are simply too large or important to ignore.
British professional archaeology, though flawed, is among the best and many countries look to Britain to set standards and promote innovation in archaeological research and the day-to-day managment of it buried remains. Scandanavia is (innevitably) right up there too. Every country, at some time, allows important remains (a fine Roman villa for example) to be destroyed because it is expedient to do so ("lets get that motorway built and never mind those old walls").
But in three decades of professional work with excavators all round the world I don't think I've seen such a contrast between words and deeds as in Greece. Don't misunderstand - I love Greece and deeply appreciate Greek hospitality. I also know that Greece has many great archaeologists, including some thoughtful and well-educated young people in whom the nation can be proud.
Greece suffers a constant tension between a rich inheritance of fine remains and the need to build new infrastructure and housing. It's hard, under those circumstances, not to destroy something important from time to time.
But I have seen for myself the daily looting of graves in which nobody bothers to intervene and the corrupt sale of permits to build holiday villas over important remains (Really Important remains).
A combination of hidebound bureaucracy, a lack of resources and the straightforward corrupting power of greed means that Melina Mercouris words ring hollow.
I would love to think that the tremendous and justified pride Greece takes in its past will be translated into concerted action to preserve it - not just a show of preserving the most visible remains to draw the crouds.
As a non-Greek archaeologist I must prove my credentials and satisfy a sometimes frustrating bureaucracy that I do not intend to plunder or destroy in order to get the right to work there. Fair enough. The British (including many archaeologists) have done plenty of plundering in the past and can still show stunning insensitivity (why, for example, does "Egyptology" study everything except the roots of modern, Muslim Egypt?).
But while I'm sure we must let Greece have her marbles back I think we might attach a note saying, politely, that the world community would rather like the rest looked after too.
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Tnx for your remarks Bryn_hill I agree with most of what you said. And I will insist in pointing out the importance of the context where antiquities are displayed as mentioned in comments #225 and #226
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The land of Greece hides many secrets and it is impossible to build anything without disregarding some ancient artifacts. Thessaloniki ( name means Victory in Thessaly ) was 1 of the most important cities during Macedonian, Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman rule. Still has the Venetian castles, over 400 byzantine temples, ancient roman market, arc of Galerius, and many more buildings that have stood there for ages and still stand and are conserved in the best possible way. Even the Metro that is now under construction has employed archeologists and specialists in antiquities conservation so the metro stations can become "museums". However in northern Greece it would be impossible to cultivate any land (except some mountenous areas) or inhabit cause of the number of antiquities hidden in it. Neolithic village in Kastoria, the cave of Petralona,the caves in Aridea, the byzantine and roman remains, whole cities and villages ( dion, vergina )are still standing but some have to be sacrificed so there is place left for the current inhabitents. Just take a walk in the fields surrounding thessaloniki (giannitsa, old Pella ) and merely by looking down on the earth u will find more antiquities than u can carry. Can a state confiscate all this land and make whole perfectures museums this is something impossible.
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well the greek scientists are very good ..Thats somehing known in the world..especialy the archeologists.Personally i think that the conservation in greece will be much better than anywhere./if someone is careful here will see that there are very good minds ..thats why there are excellent greek scientists even in the best universities in the world..harvard,etc..Mny of them have done very good discoveries in greece or even out of greece.if the greeks want to do good job they are the best and in this ocassion they want it desperately...I
As for the fact that what someone said about many words and no actions..this the political problem..not the people problem..the greeks are hard working,and they love their heritage the problem is that they used to trust politicians that they just speak..but this is even over..the new generation is not like the older and they fix everything even in the political section..
Some times i think that the people are stuck in an image of greece of sixties..even in movies i see i see this imagethe stereotypical one...villages ,etc..
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There seems to be some heavy censorship on this blog. Why cannot the Greeks blame the British for all their ills, and why cannot the British defend themselves? A comment of mine was deleted because it contained a phrase which the Greeks apply to Albanians,and its application by the richer EU countries to Greece and the Iberian countries stems from their heavy dependence on EU subsidies. I certainly did not coin the phrase but it is widely used. The phrase was also used on Mark Mardell's Blog in 2005 by one of his contributors - and it was not "redacted" there. Some consistency at the BBC!
I am told that comments are deleted if they are racist, sixist, etc and and also if they offend or provoke others! I am offended and provoked all the time by many comments by the BBC and its contributors but I never see the BBC censoring these items. And I don't want this. I just want freedom to express an opinion without censorship. Roll on the end of the BBC monopoly of our licence fees.
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bonzerpeach did you think that the reason that your comment deleted was that it was racist?some times it is the way you say something and the reason you say it not what you say..there is freedom of speach i think .
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Out of topic
I also think BBC is one of the few remaining free voices of the press in the world. It doesnt hezitate to adress difficult issues presenting all points of view. Its how you present something not the words you use. The use of the same words in different context can mean 2 very different things.
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The Parthenon Marbles look so sad in that dowdy British Museum place!
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Blacktrader + Grjava
Look at my posts. You will see that I am 100% for the return of the Marbles.
I don't understand why you are under the impression that I don't.
Read my previous posts.
My last post suggests that the reluctance of BM Trustees to sanction a return is based, in part, on financial considerations.
The tone of my comment suggests that I do not think the BM stance is justifiable.
Read my previous posts, please.
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Sorry for my bad understanding of english sometimes blefuscu after all I m not a native speaker
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That's OK, Blacktrader, if my Greek were as good as your English, I would be pleased. Have a good day.
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Bryn_hill: Scandanavia is (innevitably) right up there too. I would agree but there are not many antiquities in scandinavia are there?
If you consider Finland as a Scandic country ( which i dont ) appart from some caves, midevil castles ( like the one in savonlina ) and the savuntuvanapaja ( smoke houses ) a gathering of smoke houses from the areas of hamanlina and savonlina ( 20 km from juvaskyla ) which date 300 years back the oldest ( and which today functions as a Gourmet restaurant owned by a Finish family ) there are not many antiquities to see or to train the students.
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I have great admiration and respect for Greek culture and antiquity. That said, I disagree with some people who are demanding that the Elgin marble artifacts of the Parthenon should be returned to Greece. Although these artifacts rightfully belong to Greece, the Parthenon Elgin marble artifacts are better kept in the British Museum as a practical matter, since having artifacts distributed globally can help prevent the loss of the entire collection in the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster, etc.
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ritamclean I also have a great admiration of the British culture can you send over some fragments of the Big Ben? cause UK also has problems with terrorism ( IRA for example ) and also can have natural disasters ( a flud of Thames due to heavy rain for example ). Or a piece of the Aztek pyramids,or some piece of the eifel tower.
Come on some better argumentation on that matter. We can not destroy all the world monuments just in case they are destroyed by terrorists or natural disasters. Parthenon has stood there for 2.5 millenia and it survived wars and natural disasters. In London they where in much greater danger during WW II ( once London was much heavier bombed than most of the European cities ) than they would ever be in Athens.
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Goodness Razia, you've got more than twice the number of blogs on Robert Peston's current site. What happened to that exclusive little club your loyal bloggers were enjoying?????????
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#239 Bryn_ hill and Black trader # 240 and 241
Very interesting- your point of view as a working archaeologist, but you shouldn't be so hard on the Greek state as far as preserving antiquities is concerned. Black trader is right about Thessaloniki - I know , I live there! Over the recent years I have been impressed by the restoration of the Agora to mention only one antiquity, and also I was flabbergasted , when visiting Athens for the first time after many years, by the way in which the Metro has preserved many antiquities within the walls of the stations or corridors. Travelling by Metro is a voyage to the past! I pray that the beautiful marble flooring stays as impressive as it was then. It's correct to say that the demands of modern life have to be balanced with the desire to preserve the past. It's also true to say that the "appropriation" of artefacts from ancient sites takes place but how can it be combatted? Right in my neighbourhood, small houses have mushroomed all around an ancient toumba, not the only one in the area by any means. Could the inhabitants be prevented from maybe digging up archaeological remains in their own gardens?
So I'm 100% in favour of the marbles being removed from their present gloomy surroundings, for all the reasons stated by others, and being returned to their rightful home.
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Hands up who thinks Razia should host a TV programme about this, invite some of the contributors on the blog in to sit in the audience or on the sofa, put her hair up, put on those wire frame glasses and announce, Mrs Merton style..
"Let's have a heated debate !!"
Perhaps a 'phone-in' poll could determine the fate of the marbles ?
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That would be a bit biased lordBeddGelert for many different reasons.
1. Not all people in the forum have the same educational level.
2. Not all are native english speakers
3. Non of us can represent the official state and thus suggest for example with what can the marbles be replaced as the minister of culture of Greece has suggested.
4. It would take place in BBC and that would rule out the possibility of all people having the same chances watching it. ( not all people have satelite )
5."polls" have been already organized in many forums and sites but to me its not a poll that should decide the fate but that people in the BM understand the necessity of the return of the marbles to Parthenon and do it by their own free will and not because they were forced to do it. Cause in that case it would be a win-win situation. Much better than now that it is a lose - lose cause none of the two museums gets to display all the friezes. And no virtual reality can replace the real thing.
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Razia Iqbal: "Should the Elgin marbles go back to Greece, or stay in the British Museum? Is that even the right question?"
As to this question I dont agree that this should be the question. The question should be how the two museums can cooperate in Greece after the marbles are returned and unified so the whole world can profit by their beauty as a whole and not as a fragment.
In the recent years UK and Greece have good relations and the first as a country where democratic standards are exceptionally high and the second as the founder of democracy should set an example to the whole world of how should democraties work together for the common good and how states should respect each other. In the end of the day I think reason will prevail and a formula will be found so that Parthenon can be unified again and be the new symbol of unity, democracy and cooperation between nations, away from nationalistic tones from both sides and conflict that leads nowhere.
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#254 Browndeejaykay and Blacktrader (passim),
I respect you guy's views and I think my post made it clear I understand the compexities which the Greek authorities are dealing with. I think it's fine for a society to decide what level of control it should excercise on development (like building underground systems) which destroys archaeological remains but we are all bound by the same convention on preserving archaeological remains (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/143.htm) and we therefore have a duty to see that the law is enforced to protect the past.
What I find difficult is saying one thing (Melina Mercouri saying how important the past is to Greece) and doing another (allowing houses to be built over important, protected sites because somehow you can get the mayor to give you a permit). If the people of Thessaloniki say "look, we need an underground system and it's going to destroy a lot of archaeology - but we'll excavate and record what will be destroyed and display as much as we can in the walls of the stations" that seems fine to me - especially if the underground routes can be adjusted to avoid the most significant finds (not easy but possible - there is just such a deviation around a buried medieval site in the line of the A77 motorway south of Paris for which I am partly responsible).
It is not just about the big, spectacular sites but also about the little sites which you find everywhere - the ordinary people deserve to have the ordinary, everyday remains of their ancestors protected too. The destruction of archaeology isn't just a problem in Greece - it happens in Britain too, and everywhere else. But if your argument is that you preserve the past and therefore deserve to have your artefacts returned (which I support) then you have to make sure that the remains buried elsewhere get the preservation they deserve as well, even if they aren't spectacular and will never draw in the tourists.
I take your point about the artefacts in peoples back gardens, Browndeejaykay, and I don't have an easy answer. I fact I think that the past is best preserved when people feel that they own it - and if that means they own a bit in their back garden then maybe it will make them more sensitive to remains elsewhere.
A very big issue for us all is the way in which agriculture (deep ploughing especially) and soil changes due to climate change are destroying, and may be going to destroy vast amounts of buried archaeology without any kind of recording - but that's a story for another blog.
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Dear Bryn_hill let me give you an insight of what happens when you buy land and you want to build a house on it. Archeologists come on the day you start excavations and is there 24/7. If you are unlucky enough to tamble on something remotely old they stop all works and you have 2 solutions ( note that buildings over 1 floor high must have deep foundations cause of the earthquakes ).
1. you employ arcaeologists which will do the excavation
2. you wait for the state to do it ( can take about 2-3 years in that case )
If the excavation is important then your land is confiscated and is given to the ministry of culture for further action ( too bad for you that bought it.
If its not then you continue building after the archeologists take whatever is of importance.
In both cases the expenses are devastating once the archeological excavation might last more than a year.
There is noway on earth you can bribe someone over those matters in Greece. Same happens if an agriculturer finds something in his field and turn it over to the museum once holding any ancient artifact is 100% illegal in Greece and if they find you most probably you ll end behind bars. Even free scuba diving is forbiten cause you might find something of value. If you own a boat you cant carry oxygen vials cause its illegal.
However with so many antiquities all around the only space left to inhabit is the moon. Agriculture is kept on family level ( deep ploughing is not a common thing in Greece ) and together with tourism are the 2 main incomes of the Greek state. There is no heavy industry or other major incomes. 20% of the Greek population are farmers. Taking the land to preserve it would mean at least 10% unemployment added and a quick rise of prices in agricultural goods not only in Greece but in Europe too once Greece is a leading producer of olive oil, fruits and vegetables.
The infrastructure now created in Thessaloniki passes the whole historical center of the city in the deapth of more than 17 meters so to avoid damaging anything of importance and anything found will be displayed in Metro stations.
I think the Greek state is doing a great job cause antiquity is a magnet for tourists and that would mean a greater income for the state. As far as the marbles are concerned as I said earlier in my argumentation I cant see any building of such importance as fragments and out of its context ( as remarked in my comments #225 and #226 on which I would like you to comment ) and thats why I m for their reunification.
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Have the respective museum curators never heard of 'time-share?'
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Dear Blacktrader, how refreshing to have a polite debate on a blogsite, with so much pointless vitriol out there...
I didn't say it was easy and I have every sympathy for those who live under a system where the government can take away you land simply because it has archaeology in it. This is the case on sites in Italy where I have worked and it is clearly unjust - if it's your land you should keep it and a responsible citizen will surely agree to take care of anything of particular value within it (or is that naive?). I suspect that we agree that the law must be designed to encourage good management of our past rather than to impose draconian management under duress.
As for deep ploughing, you may be right that it is uncommon in Greece - I've seen it but not enough to be cler about its effects. I do know (from my own observtions) that it is causing significant damage to remains in many other European countries.
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My fellow blogger Bryn_hill taking care of antiquities is not cheap so to your comment "a responsible citizen will surely agree to take care of anything of particular value within it" I would add if he has the economic resources.
About ploughing let me know better cause its my job to work with agriculturers.
You still own me an answer as to the context that antiquities should be displayed as I already mentioned in #225 and #226.
I think antiquities can not be in private collections of any kind. They belong to the whole world.
I was a victim of confiscated land ( I only got a small amount of money ) but to be honnest I didnt care compared to the things found and the amount of benefit they will give to the town where I live and to Greece in a broader sense. When the state profits the citizens can profit as well from better services so concidering it was a small price to pay individually for the greater good.
And its in that sense I ask the return of the marbles cause in a cooperation between the 2 museums the whole world will profit which will be far better than now that non of the three profits ( the people above all and the two museums )
"I have every sympathy for those who live under a system where the government can take away you land simply because it has archaeology in it". I hope I answered to that comment good enough.
Its this kind of philosophy that can lead us to a better world. We need to start sacrificing some of our individual pleasurs so that more people can live better and I think UK and Greece can show that path by finding a solution to reunite Parthenon in its place of birth in such way that the BM will not feel as the loser of the exchange, nor the acropolis museum will feel the absolute winner, but that both will feel winners and above all the people who will be able to admire Parthenon again as a whole after 2 centuries.
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there really is alot of daft comments being thrown in here. Stop comparing the Parthenon to roman coins or pieces of potter or islands off Greece- that's all rubbish.
The Parthenon is a world heritage site, so is Stonehenge. If you want a comparison use that. The Greeks come to England in 1800, take apart bits of Stonehenge and bring them back to Greece for "safe keeping" or whatever. Would you want them back? Would you be pissed off if they refused? But why should you be pissed off? According to some comments Stonehenge isn't English because it was built before England officially became a country, just like the Parthenon isn't Greek because is was built before Greece was a country....
The argument that it will lead to museums the world over being bleed dry of their collections is also ridiculous - the issue of the Elgin/Parthenon Marbles is a unique issue because the Parthenon/Acropolis is such a massively important historical monument.
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Being rude on a blog cdublin is not civilized. All people have feelings insulting them does not lead anywhere. An open discussion with arguments and not with insults might have better results. You have to admit that even if Elgin was a "thief", the people that have worked and still work in the BM showed best possible respect and took care of the marbles in the best possible way according to the era they were living. To nulify the work of so many people is dishonorable at least to me. Its another thing that the marbles should be returned to their rightfull owner the Parthenon and another thing to be so negative about those people that work in BM.
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My dear Blacktrader (since we are being so polite...) to address your points in #225 and #226 I agree that the Parthenon statues should be returned (as I have already said in #239). I accept your personal knowledge of ploughing and you will, I'm sure, accept mine of the damage done to buried remains (since the BBC won't pass on a link to a pdf Google "plough damage archaeology" and look for the English Heritage pdf leaflet "Ripping Up History") - but let's not go too far off-topic. Perhaps a better answer is for owners of property to have a formal responsibility to preserve archaeology in their land and to be paid cold, hard cash to compensate for any loss of income if, for example, they do not plough but only graze sheep on a particular bit of land to preserve a buried monument. This is what happens in some countries (in Britain, for example). Land is heritage and history as well as our common food factory.
cdublin and others raise the intersting question of to whom do monuments like Stonehenge and the Parthenon belong. I would add the wider question to whom do our landscapes belong. It makes me sad to see large areas of the Mediterranean landscape being buldozed to build new vineyards just because there has been a change in the wine market - but do I have a right to influence the decisions which allow it? I feel that, when I see US tourists touring round Stonehenge it is legitimately part of their past as well as mine and they therefore have a stake and a right to have say in its future. Likewise the landscape around it which is, like Greece, full of buried remains. Isn't one of the dangers that we adopt monuments of the ancient past for modern political purposes and give them meanings which they never originally possessed - like the Greek nationalism sybolised by the Parthenon? Thus since Stonehenge is mine, yours and everybody elses (a bit) surely the Parthenon is a little bit mine as well and I should have a bit of a say in its future - even though I'm not Greek? After all, it is a symbol to me as well. I'm led to the conclusion that we need to make common cause for the protection of our common heritage, wherever it may be, and that we need to resist the temptation to adopt monuments for nationalistic purposes. But lets get key monumets back together in one piece where we can - including getting the Marbles back to the Acropolis.
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"we need to resist the temptation to adopt monuments for nationalistic purposes." I couldnt agree more with you on that aspect.
"lets get key monumets back together in one piece where we can - including getting the Marbles back to the Acropolis."
I m sure a solution will be found after all. Its just too rescent that the museum is build and maybe some warmheaded people from both sides cant discuss with reason just yet. I think over time a win-win solution will be found.
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One remark even though we might disagree with many in this blog there is no reason to insult just because someone has a different opinion. After all no-one here or few here are involved in any decision making on this matter so even if we have the best of arguments or even if we use insults and low level language this will not result to any action taken from the people who are responsible for the decision making. States and institutions have a time and a mind of their own with much more bureaucracy and much less sentiments and we have to keep that in mind when we discuss such issues.
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To Blacktrader
I really dont see how I was being rude to anybody let alone the staff of the BM seeing as not once did I mention them or even the museum. But for the sake of peace, I apologise if I did. My first point was simply that its nonsensical to be comparing something like the Parthenon to Roman coins as some people had done and my second point was that if the same thing had happened at Stonehenge, you'd want it back or rather that it should be back where it belongs/originated - regardless of country. I understand its an emotive subject but best argue the points and not whether my comment was wildly offensive, which Im pretty sure it wasn't.
regards
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Dear Razia,
Some of the comments are totally unacceptable and incredibly offensive; why?
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To cdublin read my comments from the beggining to find out that I agree for the return of the marbles to Greece.
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Blacktrader,
Thats great that you agree, I never argued with you. Can we agree that I never meant to be offensive to the staff at the BM and that maybe there was a slight overreaction?
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Although I m not British or fully Greek and I dont work in any Museum I have no problem agreeing whith you cdublin.
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To oligodT,
why dont you ask those people for further info or explenation if you find something unacceptable or adress those who are offensive in a nice manner and tell them not to be offensive. Why dont we all try to solve personal issues ourselves and expect others to solve them for us.
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Without any quibble the Parthenon marbles should be sent back to Greece. The so called Lord Elgin didn't rescue them or keep them safe for future generations; and the British Museum uses a spurious argument (acid rain in Athens which would have damaged the marbles) to justify a crime committed by the noble lord: he looted them for personal gain.
The shades of Pericles and the sculptor Phidias scream out for justice. Repatriate the marbles.
And I'm off to Kos in September to pay my respects to the shades of greatness past. They usually congregate around Gretas taverna and fine food emporium at eight oclock on Wednesday evenings.
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What a load of pretensious blither-blather. Who made the British de facto keepers of "monuments of global significance"? There would be no debate if the Stonehenge was being kept at the Smithsonian. To state the obvious - The Elgin Marbles (a shameless misnomer) belong in Greece. Just like the Koh-i-Noor belongs in India, the Hope diamond in Africa, etc. Thieves don't suddenly become guardians if enough time has passed.
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To Blacktrader
In a rhetorical question, no answer is expected, although it was referred to the owner of this blog.
Indirectly, I tried to point out how politically incorrect could be someone, just because someone else has a different opinion on something.
There is no any request for help in my post.
However to be more specific this time, my comment was about some posts about tinpot countries and their inhabitants.
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True, the marbles are a fitting example of national identity being eroded by globalisation, but picking and mixing ideas at the expense of the original artifact is hardly a new concept. The Elgin Marbles grew out of myths and history transmuted threw additions, subtractions and mutations which clearly are not over yet.
In fact the subject for many of these sculptures is the very thing being disputed; conquest, authority, diplomacy, ambition and an eye for a bargain.
Art all to often fails to demonstrate the power in which it boasts as Ottoman permission for Elgin's looting clearly demonstrates.
We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out, but whilst we're here the struggle goes on. However, all this really illustrates is man's efforts for former glory.
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Dear Friends
I have an announcement to make to all of you. For those who are in favor of the return of the Parthenon Marbles it will be Good News to all the rest hmmm... lets say not so good.
Has been a decision made on a certain level and I dont mean political but from a very large group of Greek citizens to boycott the Olympic Flame from Olympia to Britain for 2012 Olympic Games in UK and it will be done not as a secret minority the way has been done from Tibetan Groups in China Olympics but instead from a very large majority of Greeks who will be informed of this option in the next few months.
To stop this possibility we want to be returned all Parthenon Marbles period
They will be no negotiations. If you chose to ignore it will be no light coming from Olympias sacred ground and Olympic 2012 will be the greatest Olympic disaster ever.
If I was you I will take seriously this information and inform the British Museum.
Take the above not as a threat instead as a reaction on the basis of Safeguarding Greek National Inheritance.
Thank you
Ioannis
PS: Please forgive my spelling
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