Should the Aussies go to Delhi?
"Shame Games" was how the news magazine India Today previewed the forthcoming Delhi Commonwealth Games on its cover in early August, illustrating its story with the Tiger mascot suffering terrible stage-fright when caught in the international spotlight and realising it was naked.
I happened to be in Delhi that week, and witnessed for myself the frenzied, round-the-clock preparations, the half-complete buildings and the unopened new roads. It is not as if Delhi and chaos are complete strangers. But the notion that the city was about to host the biggest sporting event in the country's history just three months hence required an almost Rushdie-esque flight of imagination.
On the plus side, the revamped Jawaharal Nehru Stadium was enshrouded in its new high-tech super-structure, which looked very New India. On the negative, it was surrounded by construction site rubble and open drains, which recalled the old.
If things looked pretty inauspicious then, they appear to be even less auspicious now, as my friend and colleague Soutik Biswas reports from the Indian capital.
A week after smug old Sydney held 10th anniversary celebrations marking "the best ever Olympics," there is talk of more Australian athletes pulling out of what threatens to be the worst ever Commonwealths.
Already the world discus champion Dani Samuels has withdrawn, citing security and health concerns. The Australian Sports Minister Mark Arbib - who, for the uninitiated, is one of the powerbrokers who conspired to oust the former Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - is predicting that more athletes could follow suit.
The Australian government has already warned of a "high risk of terrorist attack" in Delhi during next month's games, and Kevin Rudd, the new foreign affairs minister, has enjoined people to take careful heed. Certainly, security concerns add an extra layer of complication and fear.
As we reported last week, pre-Games knocking stories are as familiar a part of the build-up these days as a torch relay, ticket scam or doping scandal. If you had read the press in the lead-up to both the Sydney Olympics in 2000 and the Melbourne Games in 1956, you would have expected both to have been complete disasters.
But there is something qualitatively different in Delhi, because the knocking stories ring so very true. Perhaps things will come good, as they so often do in India, at the last-minute and in the nick of time. But a simple question: should Australian athletes, or indeed those from any other country, take that chance?
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I'm 
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Not after comments like this.
''Referring to the collapsed pedestrian bridge, New Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit told reporters: "The accident is not as big as being made out to be. We are giving adequate compensation to those injured." Dikshit is the equivalent of the city's mayor.''
Alan
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I heard something about Sydney's 10 year celebrations but thought they were just comments. Did they actually have celebrations for the 'anniversary'? Will we see more self-congratulation in another 5 or 10 years? What did this glorification involve? Sipping champagne while patting yourselves on the back, pretentiously reminiscing about 'the best games ever'? Were any Sydneysiders embarrassed about this vainglorious shindig?
On the subject of the games in Delhi, I don't think I'd go. I would be asking myself if they haven't got around to plumbing in my netty, can I be sure they've taken all the necessary steps to stop a gang of armed men killing me and my team mates with assault rifles. Maybe that's just me, but India does have previous in this field, after all.
It'll be a real shame though. I expect many Aussies are enjoying the Indian failure because of the recent tensions (cricket, stabbings etc), but I can't help feeling really sorry for the people who would have been hoping for a games to make them proud.
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No one is forcing the Aussies to go to Games.Why is only Australian and British newspapers crying from the rooftop about the games.They always have SECURITY CONCERN.I see,as if their countries are very safe!! We did see London bombings in 2005.
I do not condone the delay by Indian authorities in preparations,But I think India should not be nagged by Australia and Britain here.
India should stop placating Britain and Australia to participate.If they cannot live with the fact that India has deployed thousands of police personal and many commandos to avert any attack.But again we can NEVER CONVINCE THE AUSSIE AUTHORITIES,As we were never able to convince the Victoria Police that attack on Indian students had a "Racist element".
AUSTRALIA,Please withdraw from the Games as you will not find New Delhi like Sydney,but PLEASE STOP WHINING ALONG WITH THE BRITISH.Lets face it,India is developing and growing and Australia, as part if the Occident, is developed with just 21 million population.
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The short answer is yes. However, what annoys me is that there were security concerns last year and the year before that. Why didn't the athletes pull out then? Why wait until the last minute? Didn't they think about security before now?
It also seems that every country who hosts the Commonwealth and Olympic Games have to learn how to host them from scratch. There should be a dedicated group of people within the two games movements who plan and run the games in conjuction with the host city rather than leave so much of it to the host city.
That way, lessons will only have to learnt once and not over and over again.
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#2. At 09:45am on 22 Sep 2010, stirling222
The 10th Anniversary of the Sydney Olympics was pretty much a reunion for the staff and volunteers who were involved in the event. It wasn't some city-wide celebration! More like a very big high school reunion.
Back to the story as to whether Australians (or anyone) should participate in these Commonwealth Games in New Delhi, I think it is entirely up to each individual and their situation. Clearly the security risks are high enough to warrant consideration of whether to attend. Adding to the security risks are the risks of injury from poorly constructed infrastructure and health (I believe there is an outbreak of Dengue Fever). I think there will definately be more who decide not to go and some who may return early. It's such a shame.
Maybe India, as a nation, just isn't as ready and able to handle such a massive event yet. Possibly in a decade or so (once the country is more developed and wealthier), it could be a different story. I do wonder how much money has been spent which could have been spent on helping the widespread poverty and lack of basic infrastructure in that country.
Anyway, maybe we have seen the worst and the actual Games will be successful. Let's hope so for India's reputation.
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Stirling 222
I'm not sure on what basis you say "I expect many Aussies are enjoying the Indian failure." I also think that Australians have much to be proud of following the 2000 Olympics and if they wish to remember it so be it- as an Australian, I hope London is equally as proud come 2022...
The fact is Australians love their sport, and there is no way they would revel in another countries failures. However, for whatever reasons, India has simply proven that it was unable to cope it the demands of staging this event.
That foot bride collapse, had it been 10 days later could have killed tourists, athletes and locals together. The roof falling in at a weight lifting arena, even if a 'minor' incident could have caused injury to people. It is simply unacceptable.
Combined with dengue fever outbreaks (which could have been prevented with proper spraying and public health precautions) the above collapses make it almost impossible to ensure athlete safety. That is beforte the question of terrorism is asked! Quite frankly, if the authorities can't build a bridge how can they expect to coordinate a response to terrorism?
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Mera_Bharat_Mahan at no.3 writes that British and Australian's should stop whining? Fine.
The Indian Administration has got about 2 weeks to fix everything, and only then can the world judge. Fair enough. But if India agreed to host the games, then they have to honour that commitment and deliver on that promise. If it's still a mess in 2 weeks, then that's a major embarassment for India. A lot of athletes and spectators will be sorely disappointed, and lots of Indian citizen working in the hospitality industry will also be left without the profits from the tourists that they may have expected.
So I think in these circumstances, the world has right to be concerned about India's readiness. Nobody's whining. It's a legitimate concern. So please wind your neck in.
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Comment No.3 writes that British and Australian's should stop whining? Fine. The Indian Administration has got about 2 weeks to fix everything, and only then can the world judge. Fair enough. But if India agreed to host the games, then they have to honour that commitment and deliver on that promise. If it's still a mess in 2 weeks, then that's a major embarassment for India. A lot of athletes and spectators will be sorely disappointed, and lots of Indian citizen working in the hospitality industry will also be left without the profits from the tourists that they may have expected. So I think in these circumstances, the world has right to be concerned about India's readiness. Nobody's whining. It's a legitimate concern. So please wind your neck in.
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3 Mera_Bharat_Mahan wrote: "As we were never able to convince the Victoria Police that attack on Indian students had a "Racist element".
You are right about there being racist attacks, but wrong concerning the Victorian Police. Most of the racist attacks on Indians were done by other Indians.
And this is the reason many Aussies are concerned about going to the Games. Too many mistruths still remain concerning Australians and Indians in India, usually by those not living in the country and fanned by the press in both countries.
On ABC News Radio today they ran a survey: If you were offered a free ticket to the Commonwealth Games in India would you go?
At 11.30am this morning 78% of respondents say no they would not take up the offer.
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Mera_Bharat_Mahan: "Lets face it,India is developing and growing"
Sorry mate, that's not how it works. When you bid for the games you did so on an equal footing. If a British city had won the right to host the games and was now in a similar state it would be mercilessly and universally hammered, not least by the Indians and Aussies.
It sounds like you're asking Britain and Australia to patronise you. Do you want us to adopt the expressions of parents at their child's nativity performance? Should we just ignore the forgotten lines and ill-fitting costumes because, hey... you're just developing, right? If Delhi isn't able to put on a good, safe show then they shouldn't have bid for it.
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Mera_Bharat_Mahan
It is not a case of nagging- a foot bridge collapsed seriously injuring numerous Indian workers in close proximity to the game's venue. THere is a dengue fever outbreak. A roof collapses inside another venue. The games village has stray dogs running through it and homeless workers sleeping in it 2 days before athletes are scheduled to arrive.
It's unacceptable. Don't turn the argument into one with racial undertones- The British, Australian, New Zealand and Canadian teams have every right to be upset and worried. As an Indian, you should be more upset at the reputational damage your country is suffering. South Africa did a tremendous job staging the Football World Cup- a far more demanding task than hosting the Commonwealth Games.
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4 redhotgreen wrote: "However, what annoys me is that there were security concerns last year and the year before that. Why didn't the athletes pull out then?"
My understanding is that events over the last few weeks have caused serious concern as to the safety of athletes, including hygiene/infections, the collapse of a bridge, and the terrorist killing of foreigners in a bus.
I believe that the Australian Government has increased its warning to those wishing to go to the Games.
This article is a very fair and balanced opinion from our ABC.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/22/3019228.htm?section=justin
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At 10:39am on 22 Sep 2010, redhotgreen wrote:
"The short answer is yes. However, what annoys me is that there were security concerns last year and the year before that. Why didn't the athletes pull out then? Why wait until the last minute? Didn't they think about security before now?"
You might have slightly missed the point here - if the athletes are all in a secure village that is one thing, but if they have to stay off-site in Hotels, that raises a whole raft of additional logistical and security issues.
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@ redhotgreen
RE "Why wait until now?"
You might have slightly missed the point here - if the athletes are all in a secure village that is one thing, but if they have to stay off-site in Hotels, that raises a whole raft of additional logistical and security issues.
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I find this hard to understand given that Delhi has had seven years in which to prepare for this major event, and surely during that time they have been able to call on the advice and guidance of the Games' governing body. There may indeed be cultural differences in the interpration of the living and hygiene standards of Western based athletes and again, these issues must surely have featured at planning meetings. I agree with the poster who suggested a dedicated planning team to work with the host city to ensure a standardised package of accommodation, catering, transport, security etc is put in place. However, that might have interfered with the other culture at play here, that of corruption! Cynical? Moi?
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Aussie double standards - the Indians are getting pretty used to it now. Funny that they are now crying about "security" in India, a term which they themselves didnt acnowledge when the Indian students were getting mugged, knifed, set alight and murdered in Australia every week. Or are they suggesting that the Aussie life is more valuable than the Indian life?
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By all means please stay at home & shut your eyes & ears. When Delhi was awarded the games India had problems & I do not think a miracle was expected that they would suddenly vanish. If the Aussies & English & anyone else feel it is not in their interest, then stay at home. I cannot believe those who want to withdraw, was there a threat to boycott Athens '04 when there were problems there? This is rediculous!!
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I love India: I was there for much of 1972-75, back in 1980 and 87 and for two months recently. Based on that experience, I can't imagine why anyone could presume that India could successfully organize a major athletics event. No one who knows the country will be surprised at the CG chaos.
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Re. #12
It doesn't matter who said it first, Pete. They say it about every games. The difference is Australians seemed to take it as fact and have remained convinced this is and will remain the case for eternity. Did you know that?
As for British culture, I wouldn't expect you to understand the value of historical relics and customs. After all, didn't Australia attempt to 'modernise' itself by destroying its beautiful historic buildings such as the Queen Victoria Buildings in Melbourne and the Federal Hotel and Coffee Palace? Nice move! You sure showed the old world with that progressive thinking!
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To be honest, Delhi should not have got the Games...they're not ready. The racial thing about Aussies being happy at the failures isn't true...they're damn well annoyed at the poor show so far! As for the 10th celebration of the Sydney Games, why not? It was a great show and a happy time pre-9/11. As for the student attacks in Melbourne, Victoria, evidence is needed to prosecute people; no evidence, no prosecution. Some of the crimes were later found to be not racially motivated (an insurance scam was one of them). Let's focus on the failings of the CWGOC; they're the problem here for Delhi! Hopefully the stadium's cool and the Games go off well...
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Didn't the Australian Cricket team touch down in India yesterday?
Why is it safe enough to play Cricket, but not to run around a running track?
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"Bloated budgets and multiple agencies" is pretty standard fare for these sort of things, Nick.
I don't think that Sydney is smug about it's Olympic past. We didn't call it the best olympics ever, the President of the IOC did. We were just happy that there were no problems, especially after Atlanta. Nevertheless, I don't understand the concept of the 10th Anniversary 'celebration' that you refer, Nick. Some under 10 year old primary students were treated to a tour of the Olympic precinct with a relighting of the olympic Cauldron at 6pm on the anniversary evening. There was no parade or self-congratulation as Sterling infers. It was for kids.
It would be nice if India could make it "come good", they've obviously spent a lot of money and almost a lot of time on it... Seeing the imbedded image of the person carrying the load on their head though, I think I'd be more concerned about the workmanship, than terrorism.
As for terrorism, there have been a few threats made and so far, one instance that we have been made aware. The Australian Government has had travel warnings in place for travel to Indonesia since before the Bali bombings. However where India is concerned they fall short. What I'd like to know is why does my Government (and probably that of Great Britain) tip-toe around their sensibilities.
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9 11pete11
‘Most of the racist attacks on Indians were done by other Indians.’
Nonsense. You just can’t seem to resist making such pronouncements can you?
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India is clearly out of it's depth in attempting to satisfactorily host this event.. even a secondary international level one such as the CWG. I'm for not going .It may be a pity but there you are. On the positive side this may end up being historicaly seen as the wake up call that India needed to rid itself of that "hopefully it'll be alright on the day " attitude. But I doubt it
Incidentally I wouldn't get too fussed about hurting India's feelings by not going.. India has itself boycotted a CWG { Edinburgh 1986.. because the NZ rugby team played apartheid South Africa ... something the NZ CWG people had no influence over ) Also you only have to scroll through any Indian news comments regarding Australia to realise how much envy resentment and real hate many Indians have towards the West in general ie not only Australia ( and those are the comments that are published )Inanyevent our relations with India are really pretty minor.. there's a lot of talk about China and India as the coming superpowers...for what it's worth I'd put all my money on China because ,frankly , it requires a giant leap of faith to imagine India ever amounting to much
I don't expect this to have much long term effect on the future of the CWG .. The next one is in Glasgow 2014.. during the European athletic season so people will want to go to that. After that each Games will be considered on it's merits
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17 rajeshs wrote: "when the Indian students were getting mugged, knifed, set alight and murdered in Australia every week."
This is preposterous and totally untrue.
The Indian that was burned to death, was killed at the hands of his own countrymen.
The other student who claimed he was set alight in a racist attack, admitted that he had tried to burn the car for insurance purposes and got himself seriously burnt.
The person that killed the Indian student in a park in Melbourne was not an Australian citizen, I think he was an Islander, thought its been awhile since I checked out that story.
And as to 'murders every week', I think you're confusing Australia with India.
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I suggest that Boris Johnson should speedily offer to hold the Commonwealth Games in London in December. I think London has the venues and accommodation and it would be a good dry run for the Olympics.
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The entire situation looks suspiciously like a deliberate, even if somewhat subdued, demonstration of the realities of conditions in India. There is no yellow brick road and no Oz, the wizard having absconded and left the black hole of an abyss of common troubles. This cannot have happened by chance and it may be a sign of deep political discontent and troubles in India which has long been ripening for internal upheaval. We might be seeing the beginnigs of a widespread left wing revolution that will change India forever, and might in fact push it into new proximity with China which is rapidly headed on the same path, towards a new, harder line, reactionary, post Capitalist communism.
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24 PeterD wrote: "Nonsense. You just can’t seem to resist making such pronouncements can you?"
Oh for goodness sake PeterD, put up some facts if you know them.
Who was charged over the murder of the Indian farmworker/student? Indian mangagers.
Who got badly burned and claimed he was racially attacked? A Indian student trying to burn his car and claim insurance.
There was only one Indian killed, and his assailant was extradited from one of the Islands.
Where are you're facts in contradiction?
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In December! It'll be freezing!
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The most disgusting aspect is the way the poor folk of Delhi have been used to build the infrastructure on very low wages and the beggars are being thrown into detention centres so the nice white middle class folk can have a party for a couple of weeks, no social advancement for them, like the world cup in south africa the hype about helping development is just that.
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28 Timelord. London in December? Winter? Are you avin a larff?
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So many of you posters above should be ashamed of yourselves! Grow up, don't bge so ignorant and don't use every blog on the BBC to jump on a hobby horse!
With reference to my posts above, this is not about race. It is not some kind of neo-colonial argument. It is not an ideologically based debate nor one about attacks on Indians in Australia.
Fact: A spectator/ foot bridge collapsed, there is a dengue fever outbreak, a roof at a sporting venue collapsed, the athletes village is not complete, dogs are running through delegate rooms and the organisation does not inspire confidence in India's ability to organise an event let alone deal with terrorist plots!
Fact: India is not ready. It would be unsafe to hold the games.
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Nick you're annoying me. Ignoring Juddy's Brownlow and the majesty that is Grand Final week for issues of topical relevance and importance. Bah!
The cricket team is there already... I'd say the games have a good chance of being safe enough.
But. If I had the option, I would not go. Just because heaven forbid people turn up and it works mostly without a problem and the corrupt thieves running the show can hold it up as "proof" of their success.
If it fails, questions might be asked. So fail away India, and bring the names of those who caused the failure into the spotlight...
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This is shaping up to be one of the most interesting commonwealth games ever, in more ways than one. It should be up to the individual as to whether he or she goes along or not. India is a great place but you have to take it as it comes (dishes it out). Just imagine what great stories these athletes will have stored up (for their grandchildren in 30 years time) when they get back to exciting Aus. I remember when ....... Not many will be able to comment if they dont go..
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Very clever 11pete11, foisting the blame on a) their own countrymen/race; b) "foreigners" (as long as it's not an Australian); c) financial motives (insurance).
Never your fellow Australians or yourself. That is a sign of a true bigot who refuses to accept what is going on with minorities. Such as that Indian chap that was knifed at a party. The Chinese girl that was raped then murdered by two Australian folk, then later said "she was asking for it".
Everyone knows that Australia hasn't progressed much since the "White Australia" heyday, indeed in Queensland, Perth and other areas you will see KKK chapters.
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To all the knockers of the Aussies having celebrations 10 years down the track since the announcement of the greatest games ever by Mr.Olympics himself, get over it..........the people of Sydney were not running around patting each other on the back of any sorts, in fact we all thought.....HuH!!!! what the hell!!!!.
It was actually a day for the thousand of volunteers to get back together and reminess and party on......good on them and good luck to them.
Lets see how many pommies will get stuck into helping in London without a whinge or whine.
As for those knocking the Aussies for not acting quicker on arresting the Indian bashers.............hello.................it was there own kind that got arrested, not Aussies.
As for the Olympics in India, I would suggest even the one human life is not worth the risk........DON"T GO.
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31 11pete11
'Oh for goodness sake' 11pete11. You’re supposed to support your original statement of fact with facts: ‘Most of the racist attacks on Indians were done by other Indians
It’s not up to others to provide facts to correct your unsupported and nonsensical statements.
You give three examples relevant to your ‘preposterous and totally untrue’ pronouncement, only ONE of which you can claim is an attack by Indians on another Indian. How can any rational person construe that as MOST?
In the second case, it is an Indian causing self-harm to make a fraudulent insurance claim so how can that be construed as a racist attack by other Indians?
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I hope the Australian athletes will show some resolve and take part in the New Delhi games, however it should be a personal decision without external pressure. Regarding the bridge collapse, it was still under construction-remember Melbourne's Westgate bridge disaster? As for Dengue fever, it is spread by mosquitos and can be controlled by spraying and taking precautions. There are outbreaks most summers in North Queensland and I have yet to see any warnings here in Australia for tourists not to visit Cairns at that time! That is where I caught it-a week bed-ridden and a month feeling lousy but I survived!
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@Stirling22: I think you'll find the last time the IOC president declared the "best games ever" was in Sydney. Ok, the fact that there was a different IOC president at Beijing and Athens might have something to do with that but note Juan Antonio Samaranch did not say the same about Atlanta in 1996...so it'll soon be London's turn for vainglory, old boy, unless of course you think you're above all that stuff.
But more importantly
@Mera_Bharat_Mahan : For years India has been telling the world how advanced and enlightened it is and that the west ignores India's growth at its peril. China's economic and political emergence is there for all to see (and fear) - we saw their mastery of discipline and mobilization in the opening ceremony of the 2008 games. For all its other faults (and there are many), China doesn't need to market itself through self-congratulatory bluster like India has (India Shining and all that guff).
Perhaps the most insulting comment, not just to visitors but Indians, out of this CWG saga is that from the games organizers that westerners have different hygiene standards, hence their discontent: sorry, but when it comes to excrement, stray dogs and loose cables it's not a matter of "different strokes". When Singapore, Japan and South Korea emerged from the third world, they had to accept that certain habits they were used to were not acceptable. Even Vietnam with its awful history is tearing strips off India in this respect. For some reason whenever this point gets raised, the response of Indian commentators is to blame the Congress Party, BJP or British colonialism, the US, Pakistan or mischievous China.
I genuinely feel sorry for the millions of hard-working, honest and intelligent Indians who do their country proud and feel shamed by this debacle but to rest this should be a wake up call that cutting corners and crying poor will only get you so far and that you cannot just talk your way into economic and political relevance, you need to make those hard choices to get your house in order if you want people to take you as seriously as they take China.
That said, who knows maybe India can pull a rabbit out of its hat? I can only hope so.
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What mega embarrassment brought on India by the bunch of inept / corrupt politicians and babus! It should simply have been handed over to private sector, with someone like Latit Modi at the head. With medieval politicians, feudal political parties and babus, it was never going to be a success. They only know one thing- live off the state, plunder it and maintain dynastic stranglehold on power. I cringed when i read complains about cleanliness / hygiene was dismissed as 'cultural difference' by one minister. These clowns definitely live in a different world, only its not funny for normal citizens. The whole thing reinforces my view- India has developed and is developing in spite of the governments. Bring down the bunch of parasites and more power to civil society.
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Radom Arbiter
Never mind that you are completely off topic, and random. Please don't use a public Blog to libel someone else's country.
The disgusting thing about open blogging and the internet age is that ignorant, poorly educated and disturbed people use anonymity to act as proponents of arguments that are baseless, lacking is substance and quite frankly indicitative of low intelligence and analytical ability.
I will not be commenting on this blog again and I am frankly terrified that so many seemingly intelligent adult posters are unable to comment meaningfully on the BBC article in question.
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Re. #39
Pete has never acknowledged any problem with Australia so don't expect him to start now. He is a master of deflecting the focus of any discussion away from Australian blame.
This is interesting as I would guess he'd be among the first to criticise others for similar behaviour. In fact his style reminds me a little of the current Indian authorities who are still persisting with their defence that everyone is imagining the problems and it'll all be fine.
As for "Er no. It was multi corporate companies that tried to destroy our heritage, under a Coalition Askin Government", Pete, what difference does any of that make? I don't care who the government of the time was. The demolition still happened pretty much as I described it. You never take into account the personnel involved when casting out your criticisms of other nations, why should we?
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Juddy's Brownlow could have gone elsewhere if others in contention for the Brownlow hadn't been unfortunate enough to be in teams with more than one really good player.
If I recall correctly (and it is possible that I don't) the next Carlton player below Juddy polled 9 votes. However, even as a Geelong fan I don't begrudge Juddy his Brownlow but it does seem to be an award that doesn't always go to the most deserving recipient.
Also if I recall correctly Nick tipped Geelong for the Flag at the beginning of the year, and I wish he'd been right. However, I would rather lose to the Collywobbles in the Prelim Final rather than the Grand Final.
Oh When The Saints.....
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"Aussie double standards - the Indians are getting pretty used to it now. Funny that they are now crying about "security" in India, a term which they themselves didnt acnowledge when the Indian students were getting mugged, knifed, set alight and murdered in Australia every week. Or are they suggesting that the Aussie life is more valuable than the Indian life?"
No. The Aussies responded to the heinous attacks that occurred in an appropriate manner. The assumption is that security concerns in India will be responded to appropriately by the Indian authorities.
Large scale commando style assaults are unknown in Australia. Unfortunately, they are known in India. And that's where the concerns come from. Not any form of racist value of life. As an Aussie I would love to see the India games succeed - I've traveled widely there and loved it - but the security concerns are real.
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Yes RandomArbiter...
there are KKK chapters in Oz...and the US and Canada. There are BNP and other nasties in the UK and Europe as well, more alarmingly in elected office! But that doesn't mean every person of an ethnic minority who is murdered or attacked was done so for racially motivated reasons any more than the poor Sikh shopowner knifed in Birmingham was killed for racially motivated reason this year.
And yes, there is still more racism in Oz than we'd like but the fact that almost 20% of Sydney's population is Asian very much suggests that we've much moved on from the White Australia hey day.
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Some of the Aussie comments here are downright racist......but that apart.....I agree that we Indians were not ready to host a games of this kind. Most of our cities are nowhere near western standards, and will not be for at least another 20 years. This urge to show off ourselves as an emerging superpower should stop. Let's put our heads down and get basic things working first. Until then, games of this kind should be awarded to rich nations who have the resources to get it right.
There is no shame in admitting that we are a "work-in-progress" kind of country. Both Britain and Australia must have gone through the same, though in the distant past. Let's take the constructive criticism, ignore the racist jibes and get on with life.
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"host the biggest sporting event in the country's history"
Sorry are not Asian games bigger than Commonwealth? New Delhi was host to Asian games in 1982 I think.
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I don't understand the "security" issue about India. We do get random shootings in US/Israel fairly often, but will people stop going to US/Israel? Somehow India and other countries are seen in different perspective.
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The security for an event like this would be unprecedented and fool-proof but the facilities definitely look abysmal. Athletes are expected to perform in an ideal environment, not when they have to worry about toilets, falling ceilings and jammed doors. Corruption has been obvious and pervasive and the root cause of this mess, but the organizers still can't stop their rant about the games village being better than Beijing! The worse part though is the people responsible for this mess, I am sure, will definitely not be taken to task and will continue to reign and ruin Indian sports.
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What I would like to know is where was the Commonwealth Games Federation in all of this? Why has it been left to the delegations of a number of individual countries to sound the alarm? Obviously the Indian Organizing Committee has the responsibility to deliver the games as promised and to the standards expected, but the CWG Federation should also be held accountable. The Federation Chief Executive England's Mike Hooper said yesterday he has been on top of these issues for the last two years - but only sent a LETTER to the organizers yesterday after the delegations went public with their concerns.
Do you think the IOC would have waited until delegations arrived and went public with concerns to finally write a letter to the organizing committee?
There is no way IMO that these games can go forward as scheduled. The village and venues are obviously not secure if workers and stray dogs continue to roam the sites freely 24 hours before athletes are due to arrive. Time to call it a day and at a minimum postpone the games but its also time to clean house at the Commonwealth Games Federation.
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I am an Indian, brought up in India and of course love India. To my fellow Indians, I have to say this to you. Thank people who are highlighting the issues of corruption and lack of professionalism regardless of their origin, intent or opinion. We collectively could do nothing to stop this rot in so many years, and if you want this to stop as I think you do, then posters here are simply joining hands with us in bringing this rut to the fore. Let the argument not sway like about a few incidents targeting Indians, there is a real issue here, and its not just about the games. Our future is held to ransom by corrupt, incompetent people in power who are there because a vast majority of our countrymen are not effective participants in democratic process, a few of us cannot change it, even if we willed (there is also lack of real will but that is another issue). Lets focus on that. BTW, we haven't gone thru an experience yet where we have assimilated a significant enough ethnic minority in our society without prejudices, when we do so effectively and with respect to them, then we will probably try to judge effectiveness of others in treating the ethnic minorities. Until then, vote with your feet if you don't like it. For the moment, let us bring to fore why this is not a real surprise to many of us, and what we can do to change it?
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What ever happens, once the games start and get over i am pretty sure, everyone is going to forget all about it !!!
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his was supposed to be our coming out party...Oops...... Apologies to all our friends....
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This was supposed to be our coming out party...Oops...... Apologies to all our friends....
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If anyone has ever been to India, especially Delhi, then none of this is any surprise. It is a country that is incredibly disorganized and extremely corrupt on every level. The chaos is such that the threat of terrorism is real and yes terrorism can and does happen everywhere but in India it's all too easy to infiltrate any security measures given all that chaos and corruption. Personally if I were an athlete or a country involved I would pull out on principle alone, after all 2 weeks prior to any event things should be in place enough that one should fee secure about attending.
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the fact is Indian elephant is undergoing major developmental transition in history slowly but in the right direction.
India cant become England overnight in a decade. 300 years of british rule could not clean the filth/poverty/ignorance of the India.But could create clean England at the same time.
Whatever India hosts is a step forward in its history and it is natural for developed countries to be sceptical anxious about India.
India will emerge once again in history to its past glory and sun will set n other old empires
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I think part of the blame / responsibility lies with the Commonwealth Games Federation as well. I remember when the Delhi was awarded the games a few years ago, it was all done classic Indian style (a la bribery and corruption) when we threw in some 'sweeteners' at the last minute to thwart Hamilton's bid. The CGF should have scrutinized Delhi's bid much more before awarding it or at least kept better check on its progress over the years...
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Having recently returned from a trip to South Asia (India and Pakistan), I cant really blame athletes for wanting to pull out of the CWGs . Corruption is rife in the region, politicians don't care for the people, injustice is prevalent.
And my God, the issue of hygiene, India is probably _the_ dirtiest country I have ever been to. Indians really do need to improve in this department, cultural differences or what not is not an excuse, bacteria are bacteria, disease is disease, you cant sugarcoat it. People relieving themselves on the streets - also a big No No.
What I was extremely surprised to see was how much different Pakistan was to India. Living in Britain we assume that they're both pretty much just as dirty etc, however Islamabad was by South Asian standards, exceptionally clean, no where near as noisy as Delhi, well developed and had very sound infrastructure. The general quality of the roads and buildings in Pakistan was also much higher than that in India. Although the recent flooding will most likely have affected that.
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No country is safe from terrorism, or diseases for that matter. Yes Indians in India and around the world feel,not every thing has gone to plan, so it is disappointing.
The fact however remains, that India has invested a lot of effort, to make this a success.I think as is often the case all the things that matter will be in set right.
One cannot please every one, so one must expect dissatisfied people.
I think India is ready to welcome guests, and it is shame that some people have chosen not to participate.
I just hope this decision is of an individual, and not something more, for it can easily affect relations negatively.
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17. rajeshs 'Or are they suggesting that the Aussie life is more valuable than the Indian life? '
it was an Indian minister that said 'its not a big deal', when the foot bridge at the village collapsed injuring 23 people, 5 severely. If that happened here in Britain, it would definitely be a big deal. Or I suppose westerners have different standards of safety as well?
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As an Indian, first and foremost, I am ashamed.
At the same time, I am proud of the Indian Media that has been hammering the CWG Organising Committee for their failures and corruption.
Alleged racist attacks on Indians in Australia (though true) notwithstanding, have no connection with CWG. The bridge collapse, and numerous other collapses all over the country (that I have seen or heard about since I was born) does no convince me about the Indian Governments' (there are multiple governments, at the state and the federal levels) sincerity in ensuring safety and security to Indians.
There was an opportunity 5 or 6 weeks ago, for the Indian Government to sack the Organisers and their retinue of assistants (read beneficiaries).
I stand up for the rights of every Briton, Australian, New Zealander, South African et al. (all the countries of the former British Empire) to voice their concerns, criticize, refuse to travel to India and advise and prevent their fellow citizens from travelling to India.
Sorry Indian nationalists, but I would rather manifest my love for my country by insisting on safety, security, efficiency, honesty, integrity and punctuality in India for Indians and visitors alike, instead of pointing fingers at the much and often exaggeratively maligned 'racist white' folks; especially since I am living in the United States with no such problems whatsoever!
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I'm a (Caucasian) citizen of Australia and the UK, and I've been living and working in Delhi for the last four years:
a) the present state of preparedness of the CWG facilities should not surprise anyone familiar with 2010 India
b) many middle class native Delhites are planning to stay at home if not leave Delhi during the Games, rather than attend, due to the anticipated traffic gridlock, the security, ticketing "anomalies" and general disinterest in athletics - apparently one of the biggest sellers has been the India - Pakistan hockey game
c) let us see how the hygiene of the athletes' food turns out - most of us expats here get stomach problems from time to time, it's business as usual for us, but it's a non-starter for athletes competing at this level
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@ 39. RandomArbiter wrote: "Everyone knows that Australia hasn't progressed much . . . "
At least Australia isn't going backwards:
www.indianexpress.com/news/Britain-worst--France-best-place-to-live-in-Europe--Survey/685873
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I'm not sure what state the sports facilities are in (aquatics centre, athletics stadium, velodrome etc.), but I would guess if they haven't been completed yet, and they haven't had time to run test events, then there could be more disasters to come.
At least LOCOG are on schedule, and championships (including Olympic Trials) will be held in the major Games venues well in advance in order to locate and correct any problems that only become apparent after the construction has finished.
While India appeals to me for a good backpacking adventure, I'm not sure I would be looking forward to the Games quite as much as an elite athlete, which is sad because it should probably be the second best Championship experience most of these athlete could have.
While I would be disappointed not see top athletes competing at the Games, who can blame them? Their competitive careers are (in general) relatively short. If there is an unreasonable risk to their health and safety, then they should consider this on a case-by-case basis. We are mid-way through an Olympic cycle, and the prospect of something worse than a bit of Delhi Belly could jeopardize training and preparations in the lead up to London.
I would imagine the number of unreported cases is pretty high, but as of 18th September, there were 2,224 reported cases of Dengue fever (and 4 deaths) in India, a country of nearly 1.2 billion people. Not sure about numbers in Delhi itself, but Cairns, Australia, had an outbreak in 2008/09 with 503 confirmed cases of Dengue Fever in a population of 150,000. Though speaking as somebody with fair skin, I always seem to be a good meal for mosquitoes when I'm a bit closer to the equator!
2,224 reported 4 reported deaths
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There are some confused commentators here who just don't understand,they should realise that all India's problems are caused by Westerners.
PM,#65
well said, until," Alleged racist attacks on Indians in Australia(though true)" is essentially drivel...for the umpteenth time, some attacks were,but most of the Indians murdered in Australia were killed by other Indians.Doesn't the press in India correct its 'mistakes',why not? There's an obvious xenophobic agenda here.
Rajesh #17
I'm suggesting that,some Indian lives are more valuable than other Indian lives,perhaps that's due to the caste system.
I'm sure Indian bacteria are not racist and will attack anybody in a totally unprejudiced manner.
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There are some confused commentators here who just don't understand,they should realise that all India's problems are caused by Westerners.
PM,#65
well said, until," Alleged racist attacks on Indians in Australia(though true)" is essentially drivel...for the umpteenth time, some attacks were,but most of the Indians murdered in Australia were killed by other Indians.Doesn't the press in India correct its 'mistakes',why not? There's an obvious xenophobic agenda here.
Rajesh #17
I'm suggesting that,some Indian lives are more valuable than other Indian lives,perhaps that's due to the caste system.
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There are some confused commentators here who just don't understand,they should realise that all India's problems are caused by Westerners.
PM,#65
well said, until," Alleged racist attacks on Indians in Australia(though true)" is essentially drivel...for the umpteenth time, some attacks were,but most of the Indians murdered in Australia were killed by other Indians.Doesn't the press in India correct its 'mistakes',why not? There's an obvious xenophobic agenda here.
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There are some confused commentators here who just don't understand,they should realise that all India's problems are caused by Westerners.
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39 RandomArbiter : Please read my post at 74
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To the Indians commenting on this topic,please point out the 'racist jibes' against Indians so we can consider them,and naturally we'll also examine the comments by Indians in regard to Australians.)
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This blog is about whether Australians should attend and participate in the forthcoming ..and much troubled .. Commonwealth Games in Delhi.
However many (most?) of the posts simply see this as ( yet another ) opportunity to comment about how racist Australians are.
Amazing.
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Good blog Nick.
An lifeboat of sensibility in an ocean of journalistic hyperbole (aka diarrhoea).
Yes, they should come home. Immediately. This isn't going to get better, just worse.
The Indian government and city of Delhi did not bid on the premise of an Indian experience in which they'd style the games in their own way. There is no romantic backdrop of a frugal "in our own way" hospitality like Tokyo in 1964.
It is all lies. a lie from the start of the bid. a lie in every committee room. A lie in parliament. A lie in the cash flows and P&L statements of the contractors. A lie in the engineer firms that supervise and sign off on completed work.
Lies, Corruption, greed and bureaucratic paralysis are not to be applauded or even turn a blind eye to.
Come home Aussies.
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Oh this has been a terrific read!
Although I would like to put an additional note to this post:
"66. AngloAussie wrote:
b) many middle class native Delhites are planning to stay at home if not leave Delhi during the Games, rather than attend, due to the anticipated traffic gridlock, the security, ticketing "anomalies" and general disinterest in athletics..."
There was a similar feeling in Melbourne in the last games, and in the end it came nothing. Lots of people about and most had a tonne of fun.
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11pete11, #83
You just don't understand the PC double standards.
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There seems to be a common theme on this subject and this is the discussion on whether the facilities will be ready on time. There is an assumption that there is another eleven days left to get things right. Why is this so ? People are arriving now so it should be ready now! For example, if the Scottish team has to turn up with rubber gloves to do the cleaning, then I'm saying the deadlines been missed.
I'd like somebody to tell me why the bridge fell down. It shouldn't take long. I've got my own theories. One is that the concrete may not have been reinforced with steel i.e. the contractor was paid for the steel, pocketed the cash and left out the steel. Before proper answers are forthcoming you'd have to be mad to go on one of their bridges, stadia, etc.
I'd also like to know how the Indian Goverment/Management can say they can have things done on time. For example, how can you clear away an old bridge and build a new one in eleven days. I've got a background in mining engineering and I can tell you the concrete would still be wet. No amount of people and resources can make concrete dry faster. As far as I'm concerned I think our government is not doing nearly enough to warn/protect it's citizens. If something happens it will be partly on their heads.
India is also beeing asked to be excused because they're a developing country. Australia is asked to wait for it to catch up. That's a bit rich when you think India built the Taj Mahal something like 400 years ago. 200 years after that my forbears were sitting in a prison hulk in England. They were waiting to be sent to some god foresaken land that had just been included on the world map.
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69. At 11:28pm on 22 Sep 2010, Treaclebeak wrote:
There are some confused commentators here who just don't understand,they should realise that all India's problems are caused by Westerners.
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Are you sure that is what you mean to say? There is a 'Preview' button that you might want to use. Internet rage isn't exactly a virtue. Again, please go back and re-read my post (#65) and see if your response was warranted.
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SydneyCynic at #89
"god forsaken land"?? I'm wounded.
Sterling222 at #20
What does the demolition or non-demolition of the Queen Victoria Building have to do with attending the Commonwealth Games in Delhi? Are you making a cultural determination based on how many rancid old buildings can be saved by cashed-up developers? That's a very long bow and what's the point?
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I have a theory relating to the Australian Government and their stance on attendance in Delhi... I think they're waiting for lots of other countries to withdraw so that Australia doesn't get more negative media attention in India. That way, when the games become unviable, we look like the 'bigger man'. Way to spin.
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India is divided into two on economic and caste lines. "Incredible India (Upper caste)" is what is presented to the rest of the world. It is this India who bid to host the games and it is this India who will profit from it as well. Then there is "Not so incredible India (Low caste poor)". Cheap unskilled labours (like the one in picture above) from this India have been tasked to build the CWG complex to maximize profits for "Incredible India". They took the opportunity to use the CWG facilities that they were building as their makeshift accomodation which is evident from the pictures. 20 of these cheap labours got hurt when the bridge collapsed which is why "Incredible India" says it's no big deal. When the games will begin, "Not so incredible India" will be neatly swept under the carpet so that "Incredible India" can put on a great show for the rest of the world. Games will most likely go on as planned because UK/Aus etc does not want to jeoperdise their business relationship with "Incredible India" in the long run.
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India is divided into two on economic and caste lines. "Incredible India" is what is presented to the rest of the world. It is this India who bid to host the games and it is this India who will profit from it as well. Then there is "Not so incredible India". Cheap unskilled labours (like the one in picture above) from this India have been tasked to build the CWG complex to maximize profits for "Incredible India". They took the opportunity to use the CWG facilities that they were building as their makeshift accomodation which is evident from the pictures. 20 of these cheap labours got hurt when the bridge collapsed which is why "Incredible India" says it's no big deal. When the games will begin, "Not so incredible India" will be neatly swept under the carpet so that "Incredible India" can put on a great show for the rest of the world. Games will most likely go on as planned because UK/Aus etc does not want to jeoperdise their business relationship with "Incredible India" in the long run.
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I believe the Aussies should go to Delhi.
In case of terrorism, the javelin team should sharpen the business end of their javelins, the discus chaps should put a fine cutting edge on their disci, the shooters should load up with hollow tipped ammo, the boxers should swap their gloves for knuckle-dusters and the wrestlers should be able to get to grips with anyone displaying nasty intentions.
Also, if there is any terrorist activity, new records will be set in the running events.
As far as the food goes, it's the East isn't it?
I trust it is not politically incorrect to mention "Delhi Belly".
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92 Judas
you're totally right ... the Aust CWG officials have been requested (heavied ? )by the Govt to not be leaders on this issue of whether to stay or go. Maybe understandable although frankly who cares what others think when it's the Aust public's opinion that really matters.
I must say that I'm enjoying all the sturm und drang on this thread...makes a nice change after all that marginally pointless pedantic point scoring associated with all those exceedingly tedious party politics election threads
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96 Greg Warner: Hahahahaha and the high jumpers can act as lookouts while they're up there hahahahaha.
Top one Greg :)
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ALL Nations should boycott because it will only promote a degeneration of human standards! Set a precedence and withdraw immediately and permanently!
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Whatever happened to amateur sports? Organizations like the IOC insist on bogus strategies like profiteering on the games, steroids abuse, and failed advertisements. Young, unknown athletes bring a fresh spirit to the games.
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BBC to set a substandard that can not accept that evolved above it's substandard choice of outside entities degenerates all human standards if it allowed any equality. A humanity to set a substandard environment for it's self dissolves it's self.
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4. At 10:39am on 22 Sep 2010, redhotgreen wrote:
"It also seems that every country who hosts the Commonwealth and Olympic Games have to learn how to host them from scratch. There should be a dedicated group of people within the two games movements who plan and run the games in conjuction with the host city rather than leave so much of it to the host city."
Not entirely true. Any Games hosting organisation is given access to a database of each and every document and plan from the previous Games (at the very least the most recent, but I do believe that it extends further back). Every memo; every set of meeting minutes; every document from the previous Games - it is all made easily available to the host country. No country goes into it "starting from scratch". The knowledge built up from other countries' experiences is there, ready and waiting. It is also up to the host country to seek out people who have worked on other Games before and bring them over. In any case, each person only works within their own scope and I am sure the local Games hierarchy decided on building contractors and such.
There are also a number of people who go from event to event, around the world, so there is usually consistency in staffing. I believe there may have been a fair few of the 'usual crowd' who may have opted not to work in Delhi, as many had moral/principled objections to Delhi spending that much money on a Games whilst it has such a significant poverty problem. There may also have been a lot who didn't go to Beijing because of their human rights record.
The only thing that really alarms me is that the central Comm Games organisation hadn't visited 6-12 months ago, and having seen the mess, set up a contingency for it to be hosted by another country if necessary. As Nick said, every Games there are rumours of things going wrong or being delayed in the leadup to the Games, with talk of giving it back to the previous host city, etc, etc. But for the true state of affairs to be coming out in the week before athletes are due to arrive is ridiculous.
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At this eleventh hour, a great deal can be salvaged with India's reputation in tact. India has enterprising, highly capable engineers and builders. They need to come together, pool their experience and expertise and ensure that all the buildings are ready, strucure-wise and that the surrounding areas are cleaned up totally. Posive thinking will result in positive results! Let the Jeremiahs stew in their own juice!
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I’m stunned how India could have failed but it can probably be fixed if we bear in mind that athletes, for as spoiled as they may be, don’t need 5 star accommodation.
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#83 and #87
Moderators. Please ignore this sort of generalized whining. The house rules apply EQUALLY to ALL posters. They can make SPECIFIC complaints against a post under those rules or use the appeals process if they feel those rules have been misapplied. If someone can’t live with this, they should not post on this site.
Keep up your good work.
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89. At 07:19am on 23 Sep 2010, sydneycynic wrote:
...
India is also beeing asked to be excused because they're a developing country. Australia is asked to wait for it to catch up. That's a bit rich when you think India built the Taj Mahal something like 400 years ago. 200 years after that my forbears were sitting in a prison hulk in England. They were waiting to be sent to some god foresaken land that had just been included on the world map.
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I am Indian and I totally agree with the above statement. There is absolutely no excuse for what is going on here.
Recently India hosted the Indian Premier League cricket which was a thorough success. Even if there were irregularities, the IPL was a success, and assuming the allegations of corruption are true, at least the organisers knew what, when, how and how much to steal. The CWG organisers have even failed in that.
For a country recently launching a Nuclear Submarine and sending a rocket to the Moon, excuses like 'India is a developing country' are absolutely, and I repeat, absolutely unacceptable.
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Greg, if the English Commonwealth team got to compete against the Aussies with sharpened javelins and knuckle dusters I'd have signed up long ago, mate. Bugger it, I'd even pay my own airfare. ;)
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Hopefully if they do go they will not suffer the Ganges river runs !
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rajeshs wrote:
" Or are they suggesting that the Aussie life is more valuable than the Indian life?"
Well, since you ask the question, I must say that I have never been to a country wear human life was valued as cheaply as India. I haven't been to every conutry, of course, but the thing I just can't forget about india was the cheapness of human life.
But that wasn't what you meant, was it?
You meant that india's problems are the fault of everybody else, no?
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NO, not just the Aussies but no one should go. I say this because India is a young country with more than 70% of the population below the age of 27 years but the average age of the people who run the government is 65 years.
Unless these corrupt politicians learn a massive lesson,things are never going to improve in India.Can you believe that the amount spent on the games so far has exceeded $16 Billion?
It reminds me of Vilfred Pareto's theory of 'Circulation of Elites' where a few people always hold power and distribute and redistribute it amongst themselves.
And to add alcohol to the fire was the sadistic,ridiculous comments made by the members of the organizing committee which made me retch in between dinner and end up wondering "Who chose these ignorant,uncivilized people to oversee the preparations for the CWG"
Now being an Indian myself,please let me assure you that India as a geographic and cultural entity is as good as it gets and feel free to visit anytime after the games are over.Because after that there is no scope for corruption and everything will be fine.
Also,the bid for the CWG was not awarded to India but rather to a city.That's how it works.Delhi bid and got it but failed to deliver.
Anyway,the Australian cricket team is here and I am looking forward to some great batting from Sachin and Ponting who are trying to outdo each other for the maximum number of tons and more importantly the Test ranking is also at stake.
Take care guys, drop by for new years !
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Enough of this nonsense, England have just announced their squad to thrash Australia this winter...
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113 crash wrote: "Hopefully if they do go they will not suffer the Ganges river runs!"
Wow now there's a sport very few would sign up for if it wasn't compulsory :)
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Jeez there's been a lot of posts that have been kicked off on this thread ..prefer this wasn't the case as I like a bit of controversy.......traditionaly .. in my experience at least...it's the Australian habit to often hold conversation with raised voices and afterwards not to hold a grudge .. ahh..cultural differences
Anyway.. if the BBC poobahs want to do some banning why not ban the boring, the repetitive, the tendentious and those people who.. well ..if you saw them in a bar ..you'd try to escape without being spotted
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I know i'm a little late on this one, but I just wanted to make something absolutely clear on here.
I am Australian and from Victoria. The attacks on Indians that were reported alllll over the world were not racial attacks. It was later found out that the attacks were by other Indians or they did it to themselves and reported it as otherwise. Another attack was in a known bad area. Indian, or not, the attack would've happened either way.
I think the media has portrayed us so poorly and then to NOT tell the truth about what really happened has left us on bad terms with India in general (even the Indians over here who don't know any better are still treating the "white Australian" over here like scum). So, our country can be worried about the repercussions in general and have every right to be concerned about the standard of the games this year. Safety first.
As far as I know, no-one here is enjoying the fact that Commonwealth Games are looking like a failure. In fact, it's actually a shame to see it come to this.
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119 Youre_Kidding: Excellent comment. And I agree, I don't know of anyone here in Australia jumping for joy at the sad demise of the Indian Games. Quite the opposite in fact.
As I have said before, its time the media were accountable to the public. Freedom of the press shouldn't mean that they can tell mistruths or hold back facts to make incident appear another way.
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99 pete and 112 stirling
Thanks guys...wonderful to see both of you "on the same page".
And you're right stirling...that would be good fun. It is of course an acident of history, but it's wonderful to be on the same side.
Except sport of course...also looking forward to the Ashes.
But seriously, I for one do hope the Delhi Games come together in the best spirit of the Commonwealth...as I feel you know from previous posts I am a great supporter of the institution, and for example, look forward to a time when the Commonwealth "bloc" in the UN can play a more significant role in managing our planet.
In the spirit of the original Olympic Games, where even warring states (Athens, Sparta, Corinth etc) would lay down their arms to compete in "games", I for one pray that there will be no terrorism in Delhi.
Good Luck to all competitors.
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Firstly I'm an ex-pat pom and naturalised ozzy and love it here. That said I think it's about time we relegated the Commonwealth Games to history. After all what is the "Commonwealth". A bunch of nations that were once British colonies that no longer want much of anything to do with Britain. Why bother participating in the games. The only reason Australia loves to compete is because it's so sport obsessed that the athletes win everything against a bunch of nations that spend only a fraction of what Australia spends on sporting institutions and training. I just find it so hypocritical of Australians to desperately want to sever ties with Britain yet they are quite happy to be in the C.G. You can't have it both ways. In many ways staying away from the games may prepare us for the future because we can't participate once Australia becomes a Republic. Australians ask yourself, is it more important to have a few gold trinkets that were very easy to win or to stake your claim as an independent nation? Make a stand, be a Republic and consign the games and the Commonwealth to history.
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119 Youre Kidding
“It was later found out that the attacks were by other Indians or they did it to themselves and reported it as otherwise.”
9 11pete11
“Most of the racist attacks on Indians were done by other Indians.”
Here we go again. Irresponsible implications or direct assertions without any evidence that MOST of the attacks against Indians were by other Indians or disguised incidents of self-harm. 11pete11 came up with ONE example of an attack by other Indians and ONE example of self harm. ‘Youre Kidding’ provide NO evidence.
I do not believe that Australia is an inherently racist country. I can also accept that a FEW incidents may have taken place like those referenced above. I also agree that IN SOME CASES the media in both Australia and India may have misrepresented this issue –BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE ALSO DOING YOURSELVES.
Since you are both unable or unwilling to provide any form of evidence to support your statements, may I suggest you carefully review the article at the following link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Indians_in_Australia_controversy#Statistics_controversy
It’s very comprehensive, covers many sides of the issue and provides 100 references and links to a wide variety of sources.
After reviewing such evidence I cannot understand how any honest and rational person can imply or assert that MOST of the attacks were by other Indians or were disguised incidents of self-harm.
Notwithstanding this unpleasant and racially charged issue, I too hope the Commonwealth games goes ahead as planned, with the maximum possible participation and with successful outcomes.
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I'm amazed at their primitive ways they build things,they have women and children banging tiles into place on their hands and knees and men pulling carts along like cattle.
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Re;comment 118 bigotboy,in a sence i agree,what is it with you people,
use good old aussie slang and you all huff and puff and carry on like pork chops and your comment gets banned,strewth.
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To Nick Bryant, i enjoy reading your blogs. As an Australian expat, I find them thoughtful and interesting and in the past i have commented regularly. I haven't commented for a couple of months for the reasons i will list below.
At the time of writing this, there are 125 comments about this particular blog post and only around 25 are actually about the topic.
The same old crowd have once again hijacked this blog to discuss which country is better (usually the old England-Australia rubbish) or to discuss matters of which they can have no knowledge, like the terrible attacks on Indian students, to name just one.
There are 20 posts that have been removed because they broke the house rules or are awaiting further consideration.
One of the more persistent pest posters has racked up 17 posts on this blog already with 9 of them either breaking the house rules or under further consideration.
Surely there must come a time when someone is banned for a month or two for consistently breaking the house rules (or even breaking them once for that matter). I suggest that the BBC substantially and quickly improve the way they deal with comments on blogs.
In conclusion, Nick, i'll still read your blogs but i will no longer post comments until some improvements can be made. Thank you.
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126 redhotgreen
Don't come the raw prawn mate.
Don't you see the logic gap in your post?
This is the BBC's Nick Bryant blog...if you start imposing your parameters...it becomes...NOT the BBC's Nick Bryant blog.
Actually I enjoy the random nature of this blog...you never know where it will go...and isn't that a core value of an international forum?
It is the INTERPRATION of what Nick writes...then, the exponential nature of a global audience and intellect responding in a multitude of opinions and mindsets.
BTW...I look forward to the redhotgreen blog...but please be redhot, and not too "green".
Any yet, of course, your post is part of the "present continuum" of what I enjoy in here.
Remember, as some Zen Masters say, if you want to understand the future, first understand the present.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I find it interesting that so many people who complain about "Australian racism" are being racist themselves...against Australians. Please stop stereotyping and generalising.
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24 Sep 2010, PsmithInOz wrote:
'In many ways staying away from the games may prepare us for the future because we can't participate once Australia becomes a Republic'
Your statement is not entirely accurate, PsmithInOz.
There are currently 54 nations within the Commonwealth, and the Queen is the head of state of 16 of these realms.
The majority are republics.
Dehli, for example being the host city for the 2010 CWG, is in India, which is a republic, that was granted independence in 1947.
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#130 Why let the facts get in the way of a good rant?
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130 AussieLester
All good points. Also, it’s no longer the British Commonwealth but the Commonwealth of Nations. Any country can apply to join. Mozambique is a member even though it was never a British colony. Although the Queen is currently the Head of the Commonwealth, after she dies this title will not automatically pass on to her royal successor.
Prince Charles is scheduled to open the 2010 games in Delhi.
Again, let's all hope the current problems will be resolved and it will be a success.
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#131. Indeed, especially on here when it comes to point scoring!
PeterD - That's correct, I read somewhere that after Queen Elizabeth II dies, the Commonwealth may select a Nelson Mandela type to head the organisation, and not necessarily Charles.
I'm a fan of the Commonwealth, and I am also hoping for a succesfull 2010 Games.
However, I'm not looking forward to the sniping over who got the higher medal haul!
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Re. #122
Wiki states: "The member states co-operate within a framework of common values and goals as outlined in the Singapore Declaration.[1] These include the promotion of democracy, human rights, good governance, the rule of law, individual liberty, egalitarianism, free trade, multilateralism and world peace.[2] The Commonwealth is not a political union, but an intergovernmental organisation through which countries with diverse social, political and economic backgrounds are regarded as equal in status"
I have a feeling Australia will be competing in CWGs for a while yet.
Re. #126
I gave your post plenty of consideration and concluded that we will survive without your contributions.
Anyway, the English team is on its way, I'm sure the rest will go too, and hopefully the games will be remembered as a success as the difficulties fade as memories.
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I've had technical problems with this blog so someone might have already referenced this article-since the BBC in its finite wisdom doesn't allow links I strongly recommend visiting, 'theage.com.au' site and reading the article "A reality check for India's Middle Class".
PM#90.
No,instead you read my comment,carefully, and you will be able to distinguish general comments from those in reply to you,I'm not providing any clues. I didn't make any personal references,neither should you.
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Oh,jeez,I've just remembered the topic,yes,our athletes should attend that particular circus,can you imagine the noise if we don't.
#116,Everton,
"Thrash",Thrash? What with, a wet lettuce leaf?
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I don`t feel India don't have capability to host CWG.....Its not the first case in the world scenario that games has been to this dispute, look at the games held in Athens 2004(0lympics) Those where also criticized for poor Infrastructure but it stood the best ground for games later on....Regarding security concerns its not that India is not facing terrorism, but this does not mean India is only facing terrorism attack...Why didn`t Australians stopped going to US even after 26/11 attacks..Do they??? off course not.And its not only in US or in Asia terrorism is every where just what is different, is nature of attacks.End i will just like to add,When you point a finger to others three fingers point to your self.
Yes for Common Wealth Athletes i will lend one thing "Its Time for INDIA!!!Delhi Welcomes you!!!"
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quote : A week after smug old Sydney held 10th anniversary celebrations marking "the best ever Olympics,"
"The best games ever" was the standard phrase Jaun Antonio Samaranch used to describe every Olympics, apart from Atlanta. Sydney people know that and use the phrase partly because those games were actually among the best two weeks of innocent fun they've ever had, but in equal part as an in-joke. But like many Brits you probably don't think Australians are capable of irony. Agreed Sydney people are often smug, but not about this.
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Re. #138
I suggest you read the comments on this page and come back to us.
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Yes its India's mistake , India has messed up the common wealth games preprations. To me as an Indian its a learning which has to reflect in change in the system. A system which evolves to have better accountability , is more efficient and well planned. Failing is not a bad thing , 10 years down the line this event would have made India a better country. Failures teach a lot of things.
BTW those who won't know india well , its a hugely multidimentional country more than you can imagine in the western cultures. Their is order in chaos and people are very well trained to handle it. India has two parts , One is the corporate India which is making India grow at 9% growth/yr and other is the old India in the form of government. Government which is very slow and still stuck in 1970 era of closed economy, corrupt, socialism government control. These changes don't come suddenly till the mindset changes in Administration. I would recommend hearing this talk from CEO of Infosys on TED talks to get better view on emerging India. http://www.ted.com/talks/nandan_nilekani_s_ideas_for_india_s_future.html
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@122 re: "Australia desperately wants to sever ties with Britain" and "once Australia becomes a republic, we cannot participate in Commonwealth Games".
Australia voted down a referendum in 2001 about whether we should become a republic. Further, full legislative and judicial autonomy was offered to Australia by Britain in 1947 but we did not take them up on that offer until 1984. I'm not so sure that we're desperate to sever all ties with Britain, and even if we become a republic there are many cultural and historical links.
So the British-Australian, and by that the Commonwealth-Australian relationship remains important, even if somewhat diminished.
As to your second point, that we cannot participate in the games when we become a republic: that is simply untrue. Numerous nations who do not recognise Queen Elizabeth II as their head of state participate in the games. Numerous former imperial nations who have become republics, such as India, continue to participate in the games.
In fact, there are even several nations that were never a part of the British Empire but who have been admitted to the Commonwealth of Nations and who now participate in the games.
Your comment was ill advised.
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#141
The republic referendum was in 1999
The Statute of Westminster dates from 1931 but was not formally adopted by Australia until 1942. After that Australia was largely independent.
It was the 1986 Australia Act which severed the final legislative connection (between the British parliament and the Australian states) and judicial connection of appeals to the Privy Council
I think by the 1947 date you mean 1948 citizenship when Australians were no longer British subjects but Australian citizens
I think the Commonwealth is an interesting concept, I'm just not sure it functions as more than that
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Actually there's a glitch in #142...
The Nationality and Citizenship Act dates from 1948 but Australians remained British subjects until 1984
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142 & 143 Wollemi
Your commitment to historical accuracy is most welcome.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#144
Thank you Peter
I also have a commitment to historical accuracy for...er... terra nullius and.. er...er....the fall of Singapore.
It looks like the Games are on.
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Thanks Nick for finally abandoning discussion about federal politics (even if you did have to briefly mention rudd!). See, you get a much broader comment range, over and above the usual suspects. Please keep it up.
I ran the city to surf this year with the flu and can confirm it hampered my progress. And most westerners in Delhi will suffer worse. Yes (@69 Treaclebeak) Indian bacteria are racist. people who have been regularly exposed to such bacteria will have much better immunity.
@142 Wollemi - you may have hit the nail on the head with your "interesting concept". Recent aussie sentiments to the games probably reflect the underlying sentiment in the country against anything remotely british. Interesting that many who've dropped out don't have scots, welsh or english heritage.
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146 wollemi
Now you've blown it:)
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136 - We're going to bounce, blast and spin you into submission.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
135. At 05:23am on 25 Sep 2010, Treaclebeak wrote:
...
PM#90.
No,instead you read my comment,carefully, and you will be able to distinguish general comments from those in reply to you,I'm not providing any clues. I didn't make any personal references,neither should you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read your comments, _carefully_, and you wrote "all India's problems are caused by Westerners."
Or was it sarcasm?
So, please read my comments, _carefully_, and then your very own comments, _carefully_, and then in the event you decide to respond, make sure you do it _carefully_.
N.B. for your convenience, here are the posts: 69, 90, 135
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150 stirling222
Lighten up mate. In this case, an inside joke between Wollemi and I.
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PM# 151,
You can't be serious, you've taken a phrase out of context,which is,of course totally unacceptable. FYI, it was a sarcastic comment. I'll be charitable and assume our problems in communications are due to dialect differences. (NB, there is no implication intended that one dialect is superior to another). Clear up the broken glass and relax.
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I stand corrected on my earlier post #122. Read the facts before putting it in print. Yes Australia can compete if it becomes a Republic but my main point is why bother? Take a look at the map of the 'Commonwealth'. There are basically 3 countries (putting England/Scotland etc in as GB) that spend (or have the ability to spend) any reasonable amount of money on sport. The rest of the countries have a hard time just keeping their economies fluid. My point is that Australia congratulates itself heartly on it's victories in the C.G. when it's victories would be something like pitting Australian gymnasts against Russian and America when they were at the height of their game in the late 80s. Russia and America expected to win and knew that they would. This is the same for Australia. The athletes go there knowing that they will win lots of medals. What's the point other than stroking already inflated sporting egos?
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"154. PsmithInOz wrote:
Take a look at the map of the Commonwealth. There are basically 3 countries .... that spend (or have the ability to spend) any reasonable amount of money on sport."
This is the one reason I actually like the CWG; it puts more countries on an even footing.
The olympics and world champs haven't been about the natural sporting nature of competing countries for a while. It's all about who throws more money at it.
There was a great doco on TV before the winter olympics on how the Aussie winter olympic committee decided they weren't going to win enough medals so targeted what they thought would be the easiest medal and throwing dollars at it and girls who had never heard of the sport before they applied to the ad in the paper.
Anyone at these events should cheer "Go the Aussie Dollar!"
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There was a fantastic opinion piece recently in one of the Fairfax broadsheets critiquing the hypocracy of the Indian middle class which rang very true.
A lot of the media debate seems to be focussed on the sports people or the incapacity of India to provide adequate infrastructure. But don't forget... bridges in Australia fall down too. One fell down very recently in fact.
What made that opinion piece so very fantastic was what it showed about how India wants itself to be perceived. The middle class wants to demonstrate that India is this shining example of the development dream, but seems to want to conceal the fact that there is endemic poverty. Keep in mind the uproar there was in India about the fact that Slumdog Millionaire was an international hit - "why is this movie showing the world our slums?" somebody said.
In this discussion, where is the talk about the fact that the workers involved in the construction of the facilities for these games suffer very poor conditions - limited (if any) pay, no accomodation, no safety equipment or regulation, widespread child labour. What about the fact that they are using the toilets in the facilities because there are no other toilets for them to use? There certainly aren't any public toilets. Anybody who's ever been to Delhi very quickly becomes aware of that just from the smell - somebody once dubbed Delhi the world's biggest pissoir.
If athletes want to stay in Western style accomodations when they go to India, and stay safely without worrying about personal security then perhaps they should contribute to addressing these problems first. Poor people in India are trying to make a living too and they take advantage of the facilities they can access.
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In response to my quote "Take a look at the map of the Commonwealth. There are basically 3 countries .... that spend (or have the ability to spend) any reasonable amount of money on sport." #155 Michael says
"This is the one reason I actually like the CWG; it puts more countries on an even footing."
Well yes I suppose there are a lot of countries on an 'even footing' if you mean that most countries have equally little or no chance of winning anything. The last I heard was that you only got a medal for the top 3 positions in any given event which means that the other 51 nations don't really stand much of a chance which is confirmed by the "All Time" medal tally:
Australia tops the list with a total of 1708 medals
England is next with 1695
Canada with 1188
So who comes next??
New Zealand with 525 (less then half as many as Canada)
then India with 271 and so on (more golds)
That doesn't look too 'competitive' to me when the top 3 countries have managed nearly 4600 medals and the other 51 have managed a bit over 2700 between them. In fact when you look a bit closer Australia on 1708 and England on 1695 makes it look more like an elaborate Ashes series. Ah but it's not about the winning it's the taking part that counts isn't it...
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156 datebiskot
“If athletes want to stay in Western style accomodations when they go to India, and stay safely without worrying about personal security then perhaps they should contribute to addressing these problems first. Poor people in India are trying to make a living too and they take advantage of the facilities they can access.”
You’re overlooking some key points. India was not cajoled into holding the game. In fact, it very much wanted the games and beat Canada 46 – 22 in the voting by CWG federation members. It did this by offering US$100,000 to each team plus air fares, board, lodging and transport. India budgeted US$ 2.5 million versus the US$1.1 million actual cost of the 2006 CWG in Melbourne. The estimated cost of the 2010 games is now US$ 6.5 million. Given the poor pay and conditions endured by Indian workers and the sub-standard accommodations, then a huge portion of this money has clearly ended up in the pockets of other Indians.
In sum India is TOTALLY responsible for the CWG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Commonwealth_Games
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"157. PsmithInOz wrote:
Well yes I suppose there are a lot of countries on an 'even footing' if you mean that most countries have equally little or no chance of winning anything."
Stop splitting hairs. It's a hell of a lot easier to compete and win in the CWG for the smaller nations than the olympics where they will be going up against, not just the teams you listed, but the USA, Russia, German, France etc etc etc.
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157 PsmithInOZ
And of course the CWG are made even more “competitive” by having England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland field separate teams. These countries have collectively been the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland since 1801, long before many of the world’s current states even existed, including: Germany, Italy, Belgium, Poland, Norway, Finland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and all Latin American states. The only global major competition where the UK fields a unified team is the Olympic games. Can anyone imagine Tasmania, Alaska, Hawaii, Corsica and Sicily fielding separate teams? Or, how about two separate teams for Belgium: one for Wallonia and one for Flanders? Surely international competitions should always be between recognized states.
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Which point of my argument do you (Michael #159) see as 'splitting hairs'? Do the numbers not speak for themselves? Unless I'm mistaken the title of this BLOG is "Should the Ozzies go to Delhi?" IMO, No they should not. It's an unfair, one sided Anglo/Australian beneficial that Canada happens to be in the running for as well. Everyone else is just making up the numbers.
I'm guessing that it's also a big draw card for Australian athletes to compete in the CWG because there is little, or no chance, that they will come home to the wrath of the Australian press and public, for failing to return with a satisfactorily large cache of medals.
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PeterD #160" Can anyone imagine Tasmania, Alaska, Hawaii... fielding separate teams?"
Last time a looked England, Scotland, Wales N.I. were countries in their own right, Tasmania, Alaska and Hawaii were states belonging to Australia and U.S. respectively.
That aside, lets examine your point "the CWG are made even more 'competitive' by having England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland field separate teams"
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland field separate teams but they benefit from funding supplied by the Government of Great Britain, ergo they have the same access to sports facilities, training and equipment as the English team. How that equates to the likes of Bermuda, Barbados or Lesotho being able to compete on equal terms with Scotland, Wales and N.I. is a mystery to me.
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PsmithInOz:Which point of my argument do you (Michael #159) see as splitting hairs?
The part where you conveniently ignore my point: smaller countries still have a better chance at winning. Unless of course you would care to claim they do actually stand a better chance when the rest of the world is thrown into the mix?
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Oh yes you are correct I did miss your point. Smaller nations do have a better chance of winning a medal. Instead of having no chance they now have slightly better than no chance. Now who's 'splitting hairs'?
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162 PsmithInOz
There’s two separate points here which I tried to address in my 160.
First, my first sentence was meant to be facetious – unsuccessively it seems. Of course, you are correct regarding the competitive imbalances but that exists in all global competitions. On the other hand, in certain competitions certain states punch well above their weight, e.g. Fiji, Tonga and Samoa in rugby.
Second, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be considered as countries but they are not states in the international sense. They do not have separate political representation in the UN, EU, NATO, or even the Commonwealth. Their status is more comparable to that of states or provinces in a federation like the USA, Canada and Australia. Furthermore, that ‘federal type’ status through devolution is only a recent development regarding Scotland and Wales. As such, it makes no sense to me for them to be fielding separate teams in the CWG, Soccer World Cup, Rugby World Cup, Cricket World Cup, etc.
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"India was not cajoled into holding the game"
I am aware of that - and I think that I addressed that by saying that the Indian middle class is trying to present India as being a model of the development dream internationally - so that's why there's so much high level political intervention to fix up the mess. The Western media - as Nick points out seems to be delighting in saying "haha, so much for that, you can't even organise an event properly - or deliver the requisite infrastructure." The other aspect of Western media coverage seems to be about sports people and what they're doing. But there doesn't seem to be any kind of concern on either side about what has actually caused the situation - endemic poverty and poor conditions. Please re-read my comment and look for the opinion piece I mentioned... perhaps that will put what I said into more context.
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166 datebiskot
I would argue that the cause of the CWG’s problems is poor governance. Endemic poverty and poor conditions are not the causes. These are also outcomes of poor governance and of a cultural/social framework which comprises, among other things, a still influential caste system, and the widespread tolerance of aborting female fetuses and treating women as property.
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@ 137
I don`t feel India don't have capability to host CWG.....Its not the first case in the world scenario that games has been to this dispute, look at the games held in Athens 2004(0lympics) Those where also criticized for poor Infrastructure but it stood the best ground for games later on....Regarding security concerns its not that India is not facing terrorism, but this does not mean India is only facing terrorism attack...Why didn`t Australians stopped going to US even after 26/11 attacks..Do they??? off course not.And its not only in US or in Asia terrorism is every where just what is different, is nature of attacks.End i will just like to add,When you point a finger to others three fingers point to your self.
Yes for Common Wealth Athletes i will lend one thing "Its Time for INDIA!!!Delhi Welcomes you!!!"
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Regarding your point on terrorism you seem deluded beyond reason. The whole point of the argument is that India hardly have a stellar reputation regarding securtiy and this is made worse by the fact they can't even keep the CG infrastructure up (the bridge for example). Your reference to America, for a reason beyond my comprehension, is by all means ridiculous when this logic is applied.
For example, barring the franky unavoidable tragedy of 9/11, where is the proof that America cannot deal with a terrorist threat? I see no openly corrupt Government (or government sponsored agency). They have more than proved capable of handling threats where as India have not
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162. At 07:55am on 27 Sep 2010, PsmithInOz wrote:
"Last time a looked England, Scotland, Wales N.I. were countries in their own right, Tasmania, Alaska and Hawaii were states belonging to Australia and U.S. respectively."
Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man all compete as their own entities as well. As they are technically not English or British, this would be fine.. but as far as I know, they don't compete on their own at the Olympics. Puerto Rico, which I understand is a U.S. territory, does field its own team at the Olympics.
Also, with Northern Ireland, there is some ambiguity as to whether it is actually a country, or merely a 'province'. Even some British government websites seem to differ on how to refer to it. It is self-governing when it can manage, but even up to recently, Westminster has taken over certain parts of government. Policing and justice, for example, was only recently devolved to become the responsibility of the NI government again.
I think there are some grey areas and it does seem somewhat bizarre, as though they are just trying to make the Comm Games more 'filled out' in terms of teams.
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It doesn't seem strange for nations to do this. Recall the efforts Beijing had to go to after there were threats to pull out over health concerns and also look at the vastly expanding budget London has had to try to make for the Olympics. Nations and cities don't seem to be able to adequately get things underway until they reach the deadline.
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Peter D,
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ARE separate nations, united under the banner of The United Kingdom.
We have ALWAYS competed in various organised sports as separate entities as we generally wrote the rules. Are you seriously comparing our ancient states to Australian states?
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To go or not to go is a personal choice in AUS. Some other countries one would be put on the plane not by choice. As for India, the second most populated country in the world they have too much on their hands to just finish the job. My only view is that why did the governing body failed to
get the host to complete the infrastructure in time failing which the games
would have been given to another country. Lastly asking other countries to host the event at such short notice is lunarcy. One is not hosting a basketball game here. Its a multi sport event involving more than 10 thousand athletes and 10 times more officials,volunteers,hangers on,VIPs and more VIPs and lastly those wonderful reporters who would comment either favourable or badly depending on which country they are from.
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171. At 8:18pm on 28 Sep 2010, _Everton_ wrote:
"Are you seriously comparing our ancient states to Australian states?"
I agree it's an unfair comparison, but including Northern Ireland as an ancient state is taking it a bit far. Northern Ireland as a province/country only came into existence last century, as a result of the independence of the Irish free state. It only sometimes controls all of its own government and doesn't have its own anthem. For the purposes of the Commonwealth Games they use the song 'The Londonderry Air' (i.e. Danny Boy) as their anthem, which strikes me as quite bizarre.
In any case, 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland' compete as one team in the Olympic Games, so I think people just question why everyone from the main four down to crown dependencies such as Jersey and Guernsey get their own teams in the Commonwealth Games.
To be honest, I had never heard of the Isle of Man before I worked at the Melbourne Commonwealth Games... and I doubt I'd be the only person!
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Melissa, Northern Ireland is 20 years younger than your Commonwealth of Australia. It also has it's own anthem, it's footballing authorities use GSTQ just as England's do.
Would you suggest England doesn't have it's own anthem? I don't think we do, we don't even have our own parliament becase we voted it down 10 years ago.
Anyway, good luck to every nation and competitor.
England for The Ashes.
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174. _Everton_ wrote:
"Melissa, Northern Ireland is 20 years younger than your Commonwealth of Australia. It also has it's own anthem, it's footballing authorities use GSTQ just as England's do."
That is my point, though. Scotland and Wales have their own anthems, but Northern Ireland just uses God Save the Queen, which I would consider an English anthem in the modern world. I know Australia started out using it, but then voted by referendum to change over to our own. I'd also say that Northern Ireland, God Save the Queen isn't representative of all its citizens, and wonder if it might not be better to have an anthem that was at least attempting to be more inclusive.
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174. _Everton_
PS - I am an adopted Everton FC supporter... which is a bit tough at the moment!
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Melissa, you're absolutely right about GSTQ not being fully representative of Northern Ireland, but neither is it of England.
Jerusalem and Land Of Hope And Glory are much more popular.
As for Everton, we'll come good in the end, my Aussie mate loves us too!!!
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I totally agree that the Indians should have planned the games better, but only the bad news makes headlines. The photos of the dirty rooms made world headlines, but even Nick didn't mention about the good things or the improvement happened after those images. It is not like BBC don't have access to the games village I presume
Have a look at the following link for the facilities posted by the Canadian Field Hockey Team. But these images will never make news will it.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=235412&id=151599479507
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