Victory or heist at the Oval?
Fast gaining traction in certain corners of the Australian media is the theory that England has just staged the "Great Ashes Heist": that Andrew Strauss and his team were a pretty average outfit who won the series through time-wasting, dodgy umpiring, the assistance of foreign-born players and a doctored pitch at the Oval.
Just as the CIA tried to see off Fidel Castro with exploding cigars, the ECB tried to kill off Australia's hoping of regaining the Ashes by ordering up an exploding pitch. So for the more populist wing of the Australian press, Bill Gordon, the groundsman at the Oval, has become public enemy number one; the central figure in a carefully planned conspiracy.
However hard the Aussie media tries to peddle this line, I'm not sure how many of their compatriots will buy it. Victory may have been the default position here for much of the past 20 years, but Australian cricket fans now regularly have to countenance defeat - in India last year, against South Africa at home earlier this year, and now in England. Most supporters aren't looking for excuses, and realise that Ricky Ponting and his men were authors in many ways of their own defeat.
Time-wasting at Cardiff in that match-saving final wicket stand? Why, ask mystified Aussie fans, did Ricky Ponting persist with bowling a part-time spinner, Marcus North, at the death rather than handing the ball to one of the quicks?
A doctored pitch at the Oval? It was the same track for both teams, and it was Australia, having studied the wicket, who decided not to go into the final test without a recognised spinner.
Bad umpiring? It evens itself out over the course of a series, and not many people would regard the lamentable decisions which went against Marcus North and Stuart Clark in the first innings at the Oval as pivotal moments in the match.
As for foreign-born players? Had he been fit in body, mind and spirit, the Australians would surely have loved to field the once-dynamic all-rounder, Andrew Symonds. He hails, of course, from Birmingham.
More persuasive in the "Great Ashes Heist" theory are the statistics from the series. As Jonathan Agnew has already noted, Australia scored eight hundreds to England's two and it's an Aussie bowler, Peter Siddle, who sits atop of the wicket-takers list. And if you made up a composite side, Andrew Strauss would be the only English batsmen sure of his place in the top five (although it's worth remembering that had Kevin Pietersen been fit, he surely would have been a dominant presence).
What will happen now to Ricky Ponting? There is universal regard for his batting here in Australia, but his captaincy has always attracted criticism. This is a huge blemish on an extraordinary career: only the second Australian to lose two Ashes series in England, and the first for more than 100 years. I've long thought Ricky Ponting gets an unfairly bad press, and have always found him charming, accessible and interesting in private. But there are times when he contributes to his own stereotyping, with some fairly peevish behaviour on the pitch, and he won't be able to rely on a groundswell of public goodwill.
I suspect that many of the callers to talk-back radio over the coming hours will be demanding his scalp, and asking how it is that country which only two years ago was the world's sole cricketing superpower has now slumped to four in the global rankings.
I am more than happy to include a flavour of the coverage that prompted this blog, and more than happy to say that much of the coverage has been admirably even-handed and generous. For what it's worth, I reckon that in Malcolm Conn and Mike Coward, Australia has two of the best cricket writers going, and in Gideon Haigh it has the undisputed champ.
So here's some of the coverage which prompted the blog:
On the criticism of the pitch and the groundsman/curator, here's some of the coverage, and some more.
And this is interesting.
On the South African theme, there's this. Curiously, there's also one on
Trott's Aussie connection.
On the future of Ricky Ponting, The Age asks: 'Is this the end of Ricky Ponting' and The Australian is conducting an online poll.
But Malcolm Conn is defending Ricky Ponting, as, err, I did in the blog.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~53~RS~)
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Australia are reaping what they have sowed. Their own fans pleaded recently for the team not to 'sledge' and indulge in gamesmanship. Twenty years of questionable behaviour from Australia now come home to roost.
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I don't think Ricky is a good captain.
But he can't go.
His batting is superb, Pup isn't ready (by most accounts), and the transition to a new team would be all the harder with a new captain.
I think we are stuck with him for this summer and the winter beyond.
Bledisloe, Ashes, Roosters on the bottom of NRL table...i feel stupid and contagious.
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We won. They lost. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha......!!!
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The problem with blaming the pitch for Australia's pathetic first-innings batting is that England got pretty close to 400 runs on that pitch in their second innings - when the conventional wisdom goes a pitch will have deteriorated. The use of foreign-born players is hardly unique to the England cricket team - qualification through grandparents is common throughout team sport (see for example Aiden McGeady playing for the Ireland football team, the handful of Kiwis playing in the Scottish rugby team around the turn of the century).
Failing to pick a spin bowler - and then having to place Australia's Ashes hopes on the bowling of Marcus North - should surely rival Mauro 'Scrum Half' Bergamasco as a candidate for strangest selection decision of the year.
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As a Kiwi (with British citizenship), I support 2 teams; NZ and whoever plays Australia! However, I do think this England win was a combination of good tactics, good luck and perserverance. I am heartened to see England adopt an unapologetic stance for actually being competitive (always seen previously as being "vulgar" and "un-british") and for Australia to suffer the occasional defeat. One thing I am glad to see the back of; that un-sportsman-like boo-ing of the Aussies, simply because they are confident (and winning) - full credit to the Oval crowd for for-going this behaviour. And believe me; the Aussie nation will react to this defeat with vigour and fortitude. Cricket was the winner on the day here!
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I think you forgot to mention the umpiring decisions.
I accept it's part if the game and Australia should have done better regardless but they were unlucky with a number of bad decisions against them. At least three on one day in one of the earlier tests.
The next series will be telling for the medium term with some youngs players in both teams beginning to mature. Another Aussie 5-0 at home... I dont think.
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I was living and teaching plumbing at Barking College when you won the ashes in 2005, and could not believe the rediculous hype England carried on with. I was there also when Australia destroyed England, in fact all of the Great Britain collonies at the Melbourne Commonwealth Games. I was there also for the first four tests on Austrlian soil. I wore the top half of the tracksuit Australian's proudly wore to the Athen's Olympics and only left England as you lost the fifth test. Has England ever won 11 World Cups in one year as Australia did in 1999? Not only males but also our gorgeous females won them also, I can not hear you, of course you have not. Skite on because you have the Commonwealth Games in 2010 in the high humidity of New Delhi, I cannot wait as I know you hate heat and we are used to it in paradise.
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I would counter the stats given with "so what". In The Premiership last season, Liverpool won more games and scored more goals but still finished second. Where's the difference?
If Australian's nee to focus on something then they need to closely examen their first innings at the Oval - that's where the game was won and lost.
As a Brit I don't care if they get rid of Ponting that's their problem. English cricket has enough of its own to sort out. But tonight is about celebration in and for England.
"Goodbye Aussies, goodbye
Goddbye Aussie's goodbye
We'll see you again
Sometime
Goodbye Aussie's, goodbye"
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We lost!
I guess there's nothing we can do about it, but to suggest the poms cheated is drawing a long bow.
I dislike them as much as any other Australian but even they must win sometimes.
Enjoy the victory.
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I assume that the excuses trotted out on your blog, Nick, are those created by reporters in search of a story. I would think that the Aussie press are about as representative of the opinion of the true Aussie cricket fan as the English press is of true fans here.
Here in England, it's important to distinguish between good and bad sports journalism and to separate both kinds from stories written by non-sports hacks doing what their editors tell them to do in order to sell more papers.
Into which category do you fall, Nick?
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holmes16, you display exactly the sort of churlish attitude that Nick Bryant refers to in his article. Are you sure you're not a journalist at the Herald Sun?
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Just a quick reply to holmes16, as I was wondering when the first bitter Aussie would turn up...
>I was there also when Australia destroyed England, in fact all of the Great Britain collonies at the >Melbourne Commonwealth Games.
Really, how interesting. Sounds like someone is sore. Tell me, were you in Sydney on November 22, 2003, when we crushed you into the ground in front of your own fans, took the Rugby World Cup, and laughed all he way back to England? Seeing as you like mentioning where you were during random sporting events, I thought you might like to comment on this.
Oh, and while I'm at it, were you in France by any chance, 4 years later? We sent you home again.
>Has England ever won 11 World Cups in one year as Australia did in 1999? Not only males but also >our gorgeous females won them also, I can not hear you, of course you have not.
11 World Cups in one year, you say? Pretty impressive mate. With a sporting pedigree like that, you are bound to win the Ashes this year... nailed on mate, nailed on. Just don't look at the TV or a newspaper.
Oh, and I'm glad, in your bitter rant, you mentioned the gorgeous females... our cricketing gorgeous females are currently the World Champions, having just won the World Cup in some dust bowl, I forget where. I didn't see the gorgeous Australian women in the final...
Our gorgeous females also won the 20/20 World Cup as well, they played your gorgeous females in the final, and it goes without saying, beat them.
Also, seeing as it's the Ashes that's sparked off your bitter rant, who currently holds the women's version of the Ashes? Your gorgeous females, or our gorgeous females? You guessed it mate, we have them.
>Skite on because you have the Commonwealth Games in 2010 in the high humidity of New Delhi, I >cannot wait as I know you hate heat and we are used to it in paradise.
Learn how to lose without making a fool of yourself, take a leaf out of Ricky Pontings book - he didn't moan, he didn't spout some nonsense about the Commonwealth games, he took it like a man.
How about you try and do the same?
Chin up mate - you lost to the better team. It happens.
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A great series, both teams competitive and a real variety of matches. Excellent.
I've never liked Punters, but he's growing on me, he now seems to be a humbler, more publicity-aware Captain. Regardless of individual decisions, seems like Australia would be crazy to remove him as Captain, given that he'll still be in the team batting and his massive levels of experience (that includes Ashes victories). As for the selectors, maybe they need dropping?!
holmes16, #7, excellent, relevant post. Keep it up that man!
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Whinging Aussies!
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Very little wrong with the way Ponting captained the side (apart from perhaps bowling North overly in the first test). Australia overall were the better team but England were able to turn it on when it counted. However, i would like to point out that the umpiring decisions most certainly did not 'balance out'. If it weren't for those 3 dodgy decisions in the last innings of the second test then Australia could have quite possibly and probably won the second test.
The other variables such as the 'time-wasting' and 'suspect' pitches are to be expected in important series (which nation doesn't play on favourable pitches?). All these variables are why we love the drama of test cricket, something 20twenty will never be able to match.
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Nick finally crumbles and writes the story demanded by his bosses in London. Though without much conviction, I must say.
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The game of cricket seems to be a series of several thousand events which when looked at individually have for a sporting event a very high level of go-nogo outcomes.
The surface is very variable and is allowed to deteriorate randomly, with a result that neither bowler nor batsman can know the object ball's precise final route or trajectory.
The very language of the game is full of risk; "edges, slips, glances".
While I do not ignore the fact that all concerned are attempting to strike the object ball with the bat or the stumps with ball, there is such a high degree of chance in the results obtained by these pursuits that the Napoleonic wish for lucky generals above all would seem apt for this game.
With these thoughts in mind I still congratulate the English on their victory, but would hope that the appallingly Australian manner of their last celebrations was a lapse in good taste that will not be repeated. My unstudied observations of the matches gave me a general feeling of greater application and intent from the colonial side and the English celebrants should do well to remember the various "decisions" and half-chances and their concomitant might have beens.
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RE Holmes16
You certainly weren`t teaching English language that`s for sure.
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I am not a bitter aussie Vame536 because I understand that Australia is building both a male and female cricket team when so many former players retired. I will always be disappointed when we lose to England because having lived among them I understand how little they win. Therefore, when they win occasionally, they cannot help themselves. Both my wife and I descend from people who escaped your overcrowded island in the middle of the 19th century, and none of them were convicts, but free settlers looking for a better home. The ashes is another example of a nation who considered themselves better than all others, and could not stomach being defeated by a colonial team. Therefore the trophy should be placed in a museum and another trophy struck. Win or lose we Australians welcome the team home and look forward to the next battle and we do not need open decked buses ever. I glory in how Europeans welcome Australians after they realize we are not English.
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Goodness me. I got up this morning to discover my husband (English) doing a lap of honour round our kitchen ... although since Australia's woeful first innings total I've had the sinking feeling it was coming!!
I'm an Aussie but hopefully not a bitter one. I did plenty of complaining about the dodgy umpiring decisions when they happened, and glossed over any which went the other way, but who doesn't do this in support of their team? Punter has been a successful captain on the whole for us, although there is a persistent undercurrent of opinion which says he is a fair-weather captain, able to win when he had a world-beating team, but unable to turn the game without the talents of Warne, McGrath, Gilchrist et al at his disposal. However I reckon he'll stay where he is for at least another 18 months ... which may mean the next Ashes will be his chance to redeem himself ... again!
I'm disappointed the boys didn't put up a bigger fight in this test. I'm even more disappointed that I've lost a bet to my hubby and now have to do all housework and chores for two months (serves me right!) I truly hope you Pommies enjoy your victory - for what it's worth I reckon the teams were pretty evenly matched for skills and England were just prepared to fight harder. Well done. See you Down Under in 2010/11 ...
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Which certain corners of the Australian media? What the hell are you talking about? Stop trotting out these cheap Australian stereotypes, you've been here long enough to know better! Nobody, and I mean Nobody is calling for Ricky Ponting to resign. Nobody is claiming that "we wuz robbed!!The british public deserve better than being spoonfed with worn out, obsolete cliches.Well done to England I say, your team had the goods when it mattered.
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The Australian Press & Holmes16 (years old?) arrive perfectly on cue to reaffirm that well known fact - that Aussies are the most dispicable, pathetic, bitter sore losers of ANY nation. Congratulations, you're the best at something at least.
Contrary to your comments, wins for us are far from rare... infact beating the Aussies is fast becoming the norm. Two consecutive home Ashes wins, two consecutive wins in the Rugby World Cup (one in the final on your home soil, incase you forgot), not to mention Team GB finishing above your lot at the Beijing Olympics, to name but a few.
We couldn't give a toss about how the Europeans view us. If anything that's down to Blair & can't be blamed on us! But if they hated us so much they wouldn't all be queuing up to work here.
Infact now i mention it, if Australia was such a great place why did YOU and several million of your countrymen decide to come to the UK?!
Now stop embarrassing yourself. 2-1, nuff said.
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Nick it would be helpful if you actually pointed to some of the comments in the Australian Press you use as the basis for your article. I have read several articles from various Australian papers today, none of which argue the 'Heist' line. Most writers I have seen were pretty fair-minded and balanced about the loss. In fact, the only really jaundiced and small-minded views I've seen on the issue have come straight of this blog; holmes16 and donuldvan...
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Not being English or Australian but having lived in both places, this kind of question is just sooooo Australian. They are the worst winners and even worse losers! They can't possibly have lost because they were crap, it must have been some kind of conspiracy. Try looking up 2 things Australia; 1. magnanimous and 2. the meaning of 2nd (hint: something to do with being first loser!).
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#23 Mike156: I'm with you. I haven't heard any coverage on TV or radio that was anything other than fair, with the general slant being that Australia threw their chance of retaining the Ashes away when they were bowled out for 160. Nick, do you think you could be a bit more reasonable when reporting the alleged news from down under? All you're doing in this article is giving oxygen to small minded ranters like holmes16, donuldvan, and flyingWheels11.
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From down here in Sydney, yes we are very disappointed that we didn't win but who isn't when things don't go your sides way.
On the media front, there is actually very little being said about the loss and certainly no excuses being made.
The main point of discussion is if Ricky Ponting should continue as Captain.
Bring on 2010/11
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#24 flyingWheels11, it was an Englishman who asked the question not an Australian, so why do you say this question is sooooo Australian?
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Following on from my previous: The headline in the Sydney Morning Herld is "Australia say goodbye to Ashes" and states that Australia were comprehensively outplayed over the four days.
The Age has the headline "A little Flintoff magic" and asks whether Ricky will keep his job as Captain.
The Australian is headlined "Inquest begins as Ponting loses second Ashes series in England" and is themed around Ponting's heartbreak, the flawed campaign, poor performances and the subsequent drop in rankings.
NOT ONE of these newspapers contains allegations about a "Great Ashes Heist" or any of the other bunk in Nick's article above. Nick, this might be a blog but I think you should be open and transparent about when you choose to make things up. The only Australian Press with this angle is ... well, you.
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ThePaceMan,
And it was the Aussie press that were saying only 2 weeks ago that the best umpires in the World were Australian and that the I.C.C should let the Australian umpires ump the Ashes.
Australian's seem to have a seige mentality, the whole World is agen them.
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I read the BBC, holmes16 et al, because its not the Herald-Sun, or the Daily Telegraph, where the likes of you 'citizen journalists' sadly get free rein to spout illiterate drivel. Regardless of who won or lost, the BBC lowers itself to publish puerile rubbish like most of this above. Please try harder.
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I'm sorry to disappoint the British but I haven't read in accusations of cheating or lack of fair play in the Australian media (except the BBC).
Enjoy your win; handout some Knighthoods; feel good about yourself.
Enjoy yourselves
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Herald Sun,
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25967581-5019127,00.html
Crumbling pitch no way to win ashes.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25955693-5019127,00.html
Straus fears crowd will turn on Trott
And I just love this one from the age last Friday.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/cricket/england-siddlesore-as-aussies-ride-tall-on-dusty-track/2009/08/21/1250362173741.html
The introduction by Jamie Pandaram of which the first few lines go:
Andrew Flintoff ignited neither his own farewell nor England's middle order in his final Test, joining colleagues in throwing their wickets away as Australia forcefully took the ascendency on day one at The Oval on the back of four wickets by Peter Siddle.
So how did they lose Jamie, how ?
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with respect to the foreign players issue, its not really comparing apples with apples to compare england to australia is it now Nick ?
For Australia,
1 x Andrew Symonds (retired)
For England:
1 x Kevin Pieterson
1 x Andrew Strauss
1 x Matt Prior
1 x Jonathan Trott
The current England team is a veritable united nations and should really be re-named the England, Wales & South-african emigrants side.
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I was in Perth last December for the lead-up to the first test against South Africa. Saw an in-depth interview with the groundsman and heaps of praise from commentators on the state of the pitch, stating how perfect it was for the Aussies.
Then found myself gob-smacked by the Aussie media giving the groundsman a going-over after the home side lost; have never seen such a thorough scape-goating.
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#33 SoapBoxJoe: Ooooohhhh, the HERALD-SUN. About as impartial and reasonable as the News Of The World. And as for your article from The Age ... many comments made part way through a cricket test are shown to be silly and ill-advised in hindsight. (My losing bet with hubby, for instance.) We did have the ascendancy on day one of the test. That's why it is particularly painful to lose by throwing our advantage away. Everyone expects the Herald-Sun to make stuff up. It's always a bit more of a disappointment when nonsense like this makes an appearance on the BBC.
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Can't we get the 'Who Do You Think You Are' team on Punters ancestry. There must be a Pom line in there somewhere and we'll have him if the Oz selectors lose their minds.
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Underlining that Aussies are bad losers!
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No 34 - Hon David Boon
You raise a valid point and happy though I am to see the Aussies stuffed, I fear for cricket in this country.
Now to clarify - Strauss and Prior both came to this country as kids, and even though born in S Africa, had no chance of progressing through a system thousands of miles away. They have some ligitimacy as England players. Pietersen and Trott, however, are both South Africans who learned their cricket in South Africa, played in South Africa as adults but who happen to qualify for British passports.
Their presence mirrors the sorry state of English domestic cricket, where all teams now contain several players who are not products of the domestic system and have done so for many years. Only one county - Yorkshire - maintained a policy of using players born not only in the country but also in the county. After years of unequal struggle against international invitational teams masquerading as county teams, they gave up and are now as bad as the rest.
Contrast this with Australia's experience in the 1970's. Too many foreign "invites" to state teams and the whole thing ended in the Kim Hughres blubbing on television fiasco. You killed it right there and have never looked back.
In this day and age people move around and a "native born only" policy may be impractical. Nor is passport eligibility a good determinant - my next grandkid will theoretically be entitled to as many as six different nationalities. However I'd certainly like to see a "birth or (say) ten years' residence" qualification brought in - both for test cricket and for county cricket. Otherwise the temptation is too great to bring in a ready-made import.
The current euphoria over the ashes will deflect attention from such worries. Meanwhile the southern hemisphere will continue to turn out surplus players who will then take up international and domestic places in this country. The kid playing local cricket in a cow pasture or corporation pitch, or maybe just bowling at one stump against a fence as I used to do, will give up on the dream which sustains him. Indeed, it's already happening. In parts of southern england you nowadays have to go a long way to find a local game of cricket on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. We may find ourselves, twenty years hence, with a sport played almost entirely by imports. Sure, the test matches may be sellouts, but at grassroots level it will have given way to year-round football, playstations and synchronised trampolining.
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1st Test: Draw, Australia battered us
2nd Test: England, fairly convincingly
3rd Test: Draw, never a contest due to rain
4th Test: Australia, overwhelmingly
5th Test: England, convicingly
So I make that 2-2 on the 'points' idea, hardly a steal.
The pitch at the Oval was made for spinners yes, but then that is the case every time you play in the subcontinent, pitches are prepared for the home side. It was Australia who decided not to play their spinner despite knowing about the surface from a week previously.
The series stats are not important. Australia's century tally might look impressive but in the end they outscored England by only 17 runs in the series (2886 to 2869), that they did so for the loss of far fewer wickets (71 to 84) might mean something but in the end it is run total that counts. England's lower middle order massively outplayed Australias, to say that it was the likes of Broad and Swann who actually won the ashes would be a touch too far but they certainly made the difference in quite a few innings. As for the bowling stats, when will you journos gt into your thick skulls that there are a fixed number of wickets in each test, any team bowlng with 4 bowlers will nearly always end up with the highest wicket taker over a team with 5.
In batting terms Australia may have won the top order battle, but they lost the middle and tail by a wide margin. They may have also had the series best bowler in Hilfenhaus but they also had it's worst two in Hauritz and Johnson and while none of the Englnand pace bowlers mad it through without at least one or two shockingly bad tests (Swann was OK throughout), at least one or two of them stood up in each test.
Engladn were simply put able to allow players to fail because they were the better team in termas of balance and overall ability. The ability of Flintoff, Swann, Broad and Prior to contribute in all four innings was absolutely key and no matter how much people had a go at Broad's bowling or Prior's keeping (previously at least), what they add in batting, whilst not their primary function, is good enough to turn a defeat into victory enough times for them to be worth the gamble.
That is why now for the first time in years I am no longer afraid of losing Flintoff from the batting, OK we desperately need a strike bowler to replace him but even without him we still bat down to a regular half-century capable Swann at 8.
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There wouldn't be some whinging amongst the Aussie press would there?
Having said that lets wait to see how many tests we win down under in eighteen months time before we start crowing too much.
Having spent two days in Sydney the two days after the 5-0 whitewash I found the Aussies to be happy and cheery and not too gloating.
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Well, I see Nick has added some links to his sources but the story still doesn't count as a story, to my mind. Perhaps that's the point of a blog by a BBC reporter - they can publish any old rubbish their blogs.
The coverage in the Aussie press is exactly what I'd expect. Cheap, content-free wordage that can be used to fill pages and sell papers without the need to do boring research. This is one of the reasons why the print media are doomed - not only is the idea of printing news on dead trees the day after it happened a touch anachronistic, much of the content is just made up and sensationalised. The job title 'reporter' is such an oxymoron, isn't it?
No doubt the TV and radio channels in Aus will be filled with similar rubbish today. It's easy to understand why but it assumes that readers, viewers and listeners are brain dead. I've visited Australia a couple of times and am well aware that this is certainly not the case!
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Failing to pick a spin bowler - and then having to place Australia's Ashes hopes on the bowling of Marcus North - should surely rival Mauro 'Scrum Half' Bergamasco as a candidate for strangest selection decision of the year.
---------
Errr no. North did a very good job, in fact it is a topic for some debate whether North should have been given the main spinners role for the entire series. Certainly the Aussies were a man light whenever Hauritz played as he contributed nothing other than modestly steady bowling and nothign with the bat. North is probably 90% the bowler that Hauritz is but his use contributed to a much more balanced attack from the Aussies in the final test than they have had all series. You could even make a case for this being one of their better bowling performances, it was purely the batsmen (ironically their strength according to everyone) that let them down.
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"Great Ashes Heist"? That is truly hilarious. The Aussies invented dubious tactics, surely? The main one being, of course, sledging. As you say, Nick, Australia were probably architects of their own downfall this time. Those two run-outs surely changed the whole game? Up to then they were in with some sort of chance, and were well capable of getting that win total, even though it would have been a record.
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I think this is a typical example of England/Britain's attitude versus other countries when it comes to sports and winning. Countries like Australia, America etc. are such sore losers, they really, really hate being beaten in Sports events. Whereas we tend to expect to lose so we enjoy winning on the rare occasions we do. But when we do lose we don't whine about it endlessly and look for weak excuses.
Makes me wonder who the "Whingers" really are?
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Good point re. the run-outs, Mr MLane. I really do think we should treat headlines like "Great Ashes Heist" with the contempt they deserve. I know that intelligent Aussie fans won't sink to the same levels as the hacks who write this garbage.
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"At 10:45pm on 23 Aug 2009, holmes16 wrote:"
....tsk, tsk, tut, tut...holmes16 you do realise you are looking a bit silly here. Even your own countrymen/commentators think so. Lighten-up, you lost, and of late in male/female sports you are being constantly pipped, not just by England. Even your sports minister lost her shirt in a bet ;-)
You haven't responded to any of the countergloating - cant counterbalance it can you? Jim Maxwell summed it up for you on ABC and quite graciously.
Er also...one mute point, four of the nine venues at Commonwealth Games will be air conditioned! And trust me having worked both in Delhi and Beijing - they're equal pot-boilers in terms of pollution, heat and humidity. If anything Delhi's marginally better.
Have a nice day my man! Keep circling around your own press, its some comfort for sore losers.
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Cricket is a game played hard and fair, Ponting proved an admirable ambassador for Australia with his gracious and sporting attitude on sunday - end of debate! Congratulations to England for a conspicuous victory, they performed, under pressure, when Australia did not.
I'm outraged that my many English friends think that the lazy and ignorant fools of the tabloid Aussie press look for a cheap article - they understand when I point out that the hacks are the equivalent of the half brains that work for the English tabloids ....
Gideon Haigh has cemented his position as the key writer on cricket with his series of intelligent and probing articles published in The Times - we are lucky to have him!
It would be a sad and boring old world if we did not at some time have to experience the trough of loss, the peak of victory will be heightened once the mourning reeds are consigned.
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Holmes16 - jeez...you wrote: Win or lose we Australians welcome the team home and look forward to the next battle and we do not need open decked buses ever. So how about this: bit.ly/PO3Xt when you all did so well in the Olympics. Or this, when you won the cricket World Cup: bit.ly/VoDBb. Oh, and this, when you won the Ashes back again in 1989: bit.ly/vom35
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The cheek of it is Australians call us whingers, having worked in Australia and with Australians in this country I can assure you they are the biggest group of moaners when things don't go their way. As for foreign players haven't they been known in the past to rebadge a few foreigners in their time.
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Dear Nick,
From a media analysis standpoint, its always interesting to note that most Aussie papers indulging in silly commentary and a certain English tabloid over-hyping a sound, never the less unspectacular English victory, are owned by the same media conglomerate!
A universal selling point is at play here - maximisation of circulation by selling "bad news" down under and playing the "patriotic" and "we'd done 'em" card in this part of the world. Whatever sells right? I've seen it happen time and again in an England-Oz contest and its very amusing ;-)
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hear, hear AFFRONT.
although it would be worse if there was no reaction - don't fancy a World were the only reactions to victory / defeat are "play up, play up and play the game" - it is supposed to hurt!
Journalism / reportage in Australia seems to be in the fastest decline of all English speaking nations, I grew up in Melbourne where we could at one time boast three reasonably decent papers, now none! When now in Melbourne I'm reduced to reading The Australian and AFR ....
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Congratulations England, the better team won.
The press in Oz isn't carrying on too much. Some make-news stories about sacking Ponting, but no one actually believes that would be remotely right or fair. General navel-gazing, what went wrong, blah blah. Selectors & their choices are being questioned - rightly in my mind, but others disagree.
And the English press is having little bit of a gloat...
Situation normal, it's the usual fun & games in sport. Means we care, what's wrong with that?
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I don't think it was a bad wicket. I am fed up with these flat batting wickets.
If you concentrated & batted or bowled well, you got something out of it, as shown by the Aussies in their second innings. They played badly in the first innings, though admittedly against some very good bowling, & bowled badly in England's second innings.
If Test cricket is going to survive it needs more of these types of pitches, & perhaps even uncovered wickets.
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Thanks, Doofus.
Having dug around a little on the web I'd agree with you - the comments I've seen are pretty balanced and - as Nick points out - Gideon Haigh is excellent.
It's difficult to get an overall picture from here in sunny Berkshire, but perhaps Nick himself fell prey to the need to sensationalise. He could hardly lead off a blog post with 'actually, coverage here is pretty balanced and there's good analysis in the quality press.'.
It's a dilemma, isn't it? Report what's actually happening and risk boring everyone or add a little spin (*Fast gaining traction...") in the hope that people will read on.
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05:38am on 24 Aug 2009, The_Hon_David_Boon wrote:
"The current England team is a veritable united nations and should really be re-named the England, Wales & South-african emigrants side."
Ok, you have point there. In exchange lets re-name your soccer team the United Nations or perhapes Eastern Europe Reserve XI!!
http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/2009Socceroos/default.aspx?s=soc_player_profiles_new
Two of the lads actually waited for call-ups through Italian and German federations, but settled for Oz when call-up just didn't happen. Dont look on their player profile's - look on Wiki!!
God your funny! This a non-issue mate! The world's getting smaller! Dont think you'd be complaining if the cricketers you mention were playing for you! Only they aren't!
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Holmes16's comment sound much more funny if you read them out loud in the style of Sir Les Patterson :)
But seriously, those few Aussies indulging themselves in a bit of whining should follow Ponting's lead: brilliant on the field, gracious in defeat. I'd hope that Strauss would be as magnanimous.
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If only the Australian press were as dignified in defeat as the Australian players.
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"it was Australia, having studied the wicket, who decided not to go into the final test without a recognised spinner."
Er, you've got too many negatives in there, unless by "recognised spinner" you mean "a handful of occasional bowlerswho can give it a bit of a tweak".
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The Aussies lost this game again in the first innings, like at Lord's really.
Was the pitch doctored? Well in so far as it was made to create a result, then yes. Had Australia been able to bat first, then the outcome could have been different, but they didn't and so be it.
I'm over it already and looking forward to the 1 day series to come.
The one thing to come out of this series, other than the fact that both sides really need to look at the selection policies, and the good performances by some young and very talented individuals. Is what are we going to do about the seemingly worsening umpiring that is going around these days?
No I'm not blaming the loss of the ashes on the dodgy umpiring, however it is undoubtful that had the dodgyness of did have an impact on the results for both sides in all test. Something seriously needs to be done about the standard of umpiring that is going around at the moment. You have technology there, so why not use it? Especially in very close calls. Also whatever happened to the batter having the benefit of the doubt in close calls? Both sides have suffered from it, but unfortuantely Australia undoubtedly suffered the most.
As for us losing the Ashes, I think Australia potentially lost the Ashes at the end of the first test in Cardiff, when they were unable to produce anything to get out the final bowler-cum-batsman when it was needed. This subsequently gave England the leg-up they needed for the rest of the series.
Lastly well done to the English players for performing when it was needed the most. I however think that the best result of this series would have been a draw (rather than a win to either side) due to the majority of lackluster and mediocure performances shown by both sides for the majority of the series. But england have won it, it's now history and the future is unwritten, enjoy it while you can.
Can someone please tell me how quickly the West Indies fell from grace after they were on top of the table for so long? Me thinks it was probably just as quickly.
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Nick...I have just trawled around the Aussie media and I haven't found any accusations of skullduggery by the pundits. Most were very complimentary as were the bulk of bloggers, reflecting on a closely fought test series that could have gone either way (isn't this what great sport is all about???) . The antics of a few contributors though are really great entertainment, especially those pondering the miracle of pitch doctored to be a perfect batting track for England yet suddenly, and in mid session, become a graveyard for Australian batsmen. I'm also very fond of the "national purity" brigade who, without a moments reflection on the origins of the vast majority of Australians impugn players for being born in another country (even Colin Cowdrey was born in India but I don't recall the Indians complaining). The key to self-improvement lies in self-knowledge.
Thanks to all decent fair-minded Aussies for making these sporting encounters such fun. To those (mostly apparantly from Queensland and sounding strangely like Pauline Hanson) who have imbibed a bit too heavily from the bottle of national myths...get a grip. Learn to enjoy sport for what it should be...a game. Not as a prop to a shaky self-esteem!
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The Oval pitch was prepared as a result pitch that provided both sides the chance. Not the best pitch. But if Australia had won the toss, batted first..they might have been in the driving seat
Australia's mistakes.
Not selecting a Specialist Spinner. As Warne states "You always must choose a specialist spinner for the Oval.
2) Clark..Clark is not the bowler he was. 10mph down on pace at 79mph didn't cause the batsmen problems. Double whammy.
Hauritz should have taken Clarks place; to combine with North.
3) 4 bowlers rather than 5. Without the class of Warne, McGarth..Australia were weaker bowling 4 than 5.
4) Other than Hauritz; I really feel for Lee, missing out on the Ashes, though injury in 3 tests/ overlooked in the last 2; despite been in form.
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Much has been made of the Stats. Don't they just prove that Cricket is a TEAM game? Oh, ....... and the best team won.
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@The_Hon_David_Boon wrote:
with respect to the foreign players issue, its not really comparing apples with apples to compare england to australia is it now Nick ?
For Australia,
1 x Andrew Symonds (retired)
For England:
1 x Kevin Pieterson
1 x Andrew Strauss
1 x Matt Prior
1 x Jonathan Trott
The current England team is a veritable united nations and should really be re-named the England, Wales & South-african emigrants side."
Does Tasmania count as an overseas colony of Australia?
Re: Ponting?
and David Boon in the past?
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Strewth, mitey,
After reading the Aussie media comments on the Ashes "Heist" by England how dare THEY (the Roos) refer to US as whingers? Get a few cool ones down your necks, mites, it'll ease the pain, also the brains, (if you have any...)
Motorvanman.
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Given that hundreds of thousands of South Africans are trying to emigrate to Australia right now, can we have the Australian media and cricket authorities absolute assurance that none will ever be selected to represent Australia at any sport?
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It's unfortunate that England won. Winning at sports is what foreigners do. Let's face it, it must be pretty miserable being a foreigner, and winning at sports seems to be important to them. It seems mean to deny them that little pleasure.
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One last point before I leave today.
To all those English people who have commented on here about Aussies being the worst and most dispicable losers of any nation, and that we're worst wingers than you lot.
YOU WON.
One a couple of comments on this site by Australian's have been winging about anything. Most of the comments from Australian's have been fairly balanced and accepting of defeat by a team that performed better on the weekend.
Yes Australian's love to win, we hate contests that are one-sided in regards to umpiring decisions (it's mainly because we like everyone to be one a level playing field). But we also expect that we are going to lose occasionally, especially after more than 10 years at the top.
You wonder why you have been branded wingers, well just look at most of the comments on here made by supposed English people - you won, and yet you still winge because the reaction you expected from the Australian's is the one that happened.
Grow up people and learn to win gracefully. Yes sometimes in the past the Australian's haven't, but then again name one nation that has always won gracefully?
Take the win, enjoy the time with the lime-light of winning and then we will see you in 18 months time. Oh and by the way, I destinctly remember all the comments I have received from English friends that the reason you lost 5-0 in the last Ashes series was because all your good players were out injured. (Talk about being hypocritical about making excuses).
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To all those who think the Oz press, save for the rabid tabloids, was fair and reasonable in its reporting, read Peter Roebuck in The Age (not a tabloid!): "England has ordered and prepared a dodgy deck. The talk about producing a typical Oval pitch was all smoke and mirrors. England provided a track as dry as a camel's tongue and as eager to spin as Gandhi".
Not sure what Gandhi has to do with it,but Roebuck was, just the tabloid hacks, keen to get his excuses in early.
As an Oz expatriate, I supported England in this series as in 2005 precisely because I was sick of the Oz arrogance and boorishness. I have been very pleasantly surprised at the good humour, good manners and good sportsmanship of this Oz team, and so my interest in Oz cricket is rekindled – I may have real problems deciding who to support next time!
Australians have earned an unlovely reputation for being sore losers, so I am very pleased to see evidence of a bit of maturity and respect for the performance of those who play better.
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I was living and teaching plumbing at Barking College when you won the ashes in 2005, and could not believe the rediculous hype..(edited for waffle).... because you have the Commonwealth Games in 2010 in the high humidity of New Delhi, I cannot wait as I know you hate heat and we are used to it in paradise.(holmes16)
**************************************
Jog on son, you're just not as good as you thought you were, deal with it and stop crying.
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iwillreturn: I agree with 100% on tabloids. They are the same everywhere, although GB must surely be top of the table for sheer vulgarity and senseless nonsense? In Germany, where I live, they only have 3 national tabloids and they are pretty bad, but are pure Mickey Mouse compared with their British counterparts. Know nothing about the Aussie tabloids, but I guess they sound pretty bad too.
Tabloids exist just to make money and nothing else; they don't care what they write and are only brought to heel when they are successfully sued for blatant lies about a subject. This is pretty rare though. Tough to get them, hidden behind theír ivory towers?
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"I know you hate heat and we are used to it in paradise".
Paradise? A little bit over the top don't you think? I must get over there to have a look some time.
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Poor old Rockwanderermatt - you've got to feel sorry for him. He seems to have had great difficulty understanding what the English posters here have been saying. Incidentally what you're doing in your post is 'whinging' about us, Matt, not 'winging'.
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Goodness me! It looks like they fail to sell dictionaries in paradise.
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Having watched England play Ashes cricket in both England and Australia for many years, I have to say that I always welcome having Australian supporters sitting nearby. They support their team with pride and gusto, but, with the exception of some of the more boorish types in the MCG bay 13, are always great company and good for a laugh. A post match beer is something to savour as both sides disect the key moments of play. Those who take the time and trouble to follow their team to England are generally amongst the most fair-minded people you could meet. They were gracious in defeat despite the dashing of their expectations.
The Australian media is a bit different, and anyone who relies on the accounts in the printed press as a sole reference will often get a very biased view of what went on. I sometimes wonder if I was at the same match. I suppose the same is true of some newspapers in England, but on the whole they tend to be more even-handed. Small example is the emphasis placed upon umpiring errors. Sure there were some in the test just played, there always are, but whereas the ones against North and Clark were highlighted, I couldn't find any mention of the two English wickets, including the key first innings dismissal of Strauss, that were from clear No Balls. No wonder some Australians at home who didn't see the match tend to think they always got the bad rub of the green. I wish they would lose their habit too of always emphasising the birth place of English players: "The South African-born Strauss" etc. It is almost childish, all the more so when Strauss in particular couldn't be more English, having lived here since a small boy and gone to good English schools. No-one can choose where they are born, for goodness sake, and Australia is a nation built upon immigration.
One thing of which I am sure; the emotion and interest displayed in the Ashes series in both hemispheres means that despite rumours to the contrary, Test cricket is alive and well. I'll be Down Under in 2010/11 for the rematch. Start stocking up on the beers now.
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Ok whingers. The Poms won, we did not. Build a flaming bridge and get over it!!
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Excellent comment, Pickled Pete. I get the impression that rockwanderermatt hasn't really ready what you, I and other English contributors have been saying in response to the OP: i.e. that the problem , if there is one, lies with the press rather than fans. Summary, Matt - don't believe everything you read in the papers.
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I must admit I thought the 2005 celebrations were over the top, and that we'd live to regret them ... and sure enough we did, in 2007.
So along come the Aussies in 2009, with a 'transitional' team and everything to play for. England were in disarray, and the press were looking for a repeat of 2005, with Flintoff and Pieterson playing leading roles and the Australians being bulldozed into the ground. Except that wasn't quite how it happend in 2005, when the Australians had injury problems and the series could have gone either way (in my opinion Shane Warne was the man of the series, not Andrew Flintoff, even though the Aussies lost).
Once again we've pulled off a series win, and by a narrow margin. Australia had all but won in Cardiff, but failed to close out the match. England should have forced a win at Edgbaston, but didn't have the cutting edge to do so. It's no good compianing about the Oval pitch, or about bad decisions, or about the kind of ball used: the pitches were the same for both teams, there were bad decisions in both directions, and everybody knew what kind of ball would be used months in advance of the series.
No, the fact remains that a team that couldn't win from the dominant position they held in Cardiff was always going to be a doubtful prospect for the Ashes. If Australia lost the series it wasn't because they had poorer players, or because they lacked grit and determination, but because they didn't come up with match-winning performances at the times when they were needed quite as often as England did. It could so easily have gone the other way, and probably will in 2011, though as an England fan I'd rather it didn't.
So take a bit of advice from a Pom (and a lesson in sportsmanship from Ricky Ponting): stop whingeing, and start planning how you're going to win the Ashes back next time around. And if I were you I wouldn't drop Ponting unless I was really keen to lose on home soil, because without him this time the defeat would very probably have been worse.
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>I am not a bitter aussie Vame536
Then why did you post that bitter, ranting nonsense earlier? It was the post of an angry child. If you are not bitter, why rant?
>I will always be disappointed when we lose to England because having lived among them I >understand how little they win.
If you feel the need to pretend this is true to make yourself feel better, then go ahead. Again, you simply sound like a child, crying because you lost.
I repeat - we beat you in the Rugby World Cup in 2003, we beat you again in 2007, we beat you in the Ashes in 2005, we just beat you in the Ashes in 2009, our women beat you to the World Cup, 20/20 World Cup, and the Ashes.
If none of those things had happened, your bitter comments might make slightly more sense, however, they did. Deal with it.
>Therefore, when they win occasionally, they cannot help themselves.
No, you cannot help yourself, as your rant earlier proves.
>Win or lose we Australians welcome the team home and look forward to the next battle and we do not need open decked buses ever.
You do, however, need to make a bitter, ranting, nonsensical post about the Commonwealth games, in order to try and make yourself feel better, so annoyed are you with defeat.
>I glory in how Europeans welcome Australians after they realize we are not English.
Yes, that's exactly right, every single person in Europe hates every single person in England, but also loves every single person from Australia. Now, if you have quite finished, you embarrassed youself earlier with your pointless rant, and now you are reduced to making bizarre, dreamt-up claims on a subject not in anyway connected to cricket, because you simply do not know how to deal with the crushing Ashes defeat you just got.
If only you had the maturity to disguise it slightly better.
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Nick, are you really writing from Australia? I think you are overcooking this a bit - the Aussie press have been quite genuine and generous as a whole: Our team wasn't up to scratch england were a better team.
Who cares what Gideon Haigh thought about un-named news ltd journos at the oval? I haven't seen any articles blaming the pitch for the performance of the aussie batsmen here, nor did Ponting himself blame the pitch in any interviews. It is the Cricket Captain who sets the tone in this country and Punter defied many critics (even myself) with his sportsmanship and focus on the cricket.
Personally, i dont think the 'time wasting' in Cardiff changed the result, but as a cricket fan i found it pretty cringe worthy in the way it made Andrew Strauss (who i have a lot of repsect for) look unsporting and i think the media here generally saw it like that too.
Lastly, I agree with Aggers and virtually all the TMS commentators that the umpiring for this series was not up to scratch. It didn't change the result but that is not a reason to keep it as it is. The best umpires possible for each test match - that should be the standard.
Cheers to the lovers of cricket and the ongoing saga that is the Ashes!
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England won the Ashes by taking their chances when they came and deservedly so. Aussie dominated tests 1 & 4, England 2 & 5 and in between #3 was slightly to England early and slightly to Aussie towards the end. The key thing was Aussie didn't finish their dominance in test #1 so England have won the little urn back.
Congrats to England, as an Aussie in England I have suffered the loss of 2005 and now 2009, don't worry, I won't be here in 2013 so the jinx (ME!) will be gone :-)
Kiwis who support NZ and anyone against Australia are having a laugh..... at themselves - Personally I say good luck to the All Whites for the football and to the All Blacks against the Springboks, stop suffering little brother syndrome ozbob68
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Where, in the Australian media, is there a blog dedicated to allowing us to express our dislike of the British and all things British?
If any Australian wants proof that it's time to move to a Republic, to cut those ties that seem to give the British the right to have and express an opinion on all things Australian, it's the tripe that many of these posts spew.
On every other forum on the BBC web site, you are falling over yourselves belittling your country, complaining about it laws and wishing you could leave. Every forum except this one.
Here you can spout your superiority and complain about the attitudes and patriotism of a foreign country. You are pathetic.
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You lost, stop crying.
It's not time for Australia to become a Republic (well, not because of this anyway), all the English are not pathetic, everyone in England doesn't want to leave.
Look - the moaning, bitter Aussie from earlier humiliated himself, don't be next in line mate.
No matter what you say, no matter how dramatic you are, no matter what insults you throw, I know, you know, everyone reading this blog knows, you are just sore because you lost and you don't like it.
Why can't you see, that by making the sort of posts you do, with your insults and your dramatic claims, you just make yourself look even more foolish?
We are already laughing at you for the way you behave when the mighty English put you in your place - don't give us any more reasons to laugh.
Again, and for the final time - you lost. Nothing you can say will change this. So just deal wth it as best you can. Your reputation as the sore losers of the world is already well established, people like you only ensure that this will not change.
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Oh, and I've just seen some of your other comments, in this blog and some of the others, I think they speak volumes about your attitude.
> I dislike them as much as any other Australian but even they must win sometimes
You dislike an entire nation as your default position. I honestly thought people like you died out in the 50s and 60s. You Sir, are a dinosaur.
And the arrogance in the following quote is simple amazing...
> The simple truth is that we believe we are among the best nations on earth.
>Seeing that this simple truth is almost universally accepted here, we expect to win and when we >don't the planets don't seem to be in their rightful places.
>Whether we are right or wrong is of no consequence; we believe it and that's all that counts.
Haha. :D
Perhaps you need a few beatings at the hands of the English, like you have had recently, or the All Blacks, or anyone really. You seem to have developed, as an individual, some sort of megalomania, mixed in with a healthy dose of delusions of grandeur.
I often wonder why you simply can't take losing, then I read quotes like this and it becomes clear.
Planets not in the right place if you lose... I didn't know an inferiority complex could be that bad.
Anyway, you are clearly the sort of person who will not listen - bad luck on the cricket and that mate, don't lose any sleep over it. :)
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There's a quip,supposedly by a Frenchman,that the English invented cricket to demonstrate the concept of "eternity",I agree-86 comments so far on what is, in fact, organised tedium.
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PickledPete (#77) has it about right.
The (better quality) Oz press is pretty balanced on the overall result, but Peter Roebuck at the Age is still at it:
"England did enjoy the rub of the green. On balance, the umpiring errors favoured the home side. Andrew Strauss won four out of five tosses, the last of them crucial. Australia was unlucky, too, with the rain that interrupted its innings at the Oval. The shower came quickly and freshened the pitch before the covers could be put on. Broad's burst came straight after the resumption." But he did concede that England deserved to win!
The unmpiring wasn't good enough, but it is remarkable how many Oz commentators dwell on the poor decisions that went against Australia and fail to mention those that went against England, notably the no-ball dismissals, notably of Strauss, or Rauf's failure to give Watson out lbw at the Oval. The technology is now so good that we could rely on sensors to flag no-balls when bowler oversteps, and Hawkeye to determine lbws.
It would be kind of nice to give whingers less to work with.
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'organised tedium', Treaclebeak ??????
Really!
Test cricket played in England is sublime, a game of guile and deceit, grace, determination, patient achievement (often cruelly unrewarded), flashy ostenation. Why, all human life is there! (OK, no sex to speak of, and the music is execrable).
And the beauty of it all – the whites against the green…
Ah… more, much more please… for eternity…
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HI Nick i look forward to your thoughts each time a new one appears, it didn't take you long to discover how important sport seems to be in this country but i wonder if you just pay lip service to sports that are considered indigenous sports to Australia, like Cricket, Rugby both codes, AFL, but you have not mentioned any thing about football, we were one of the first to qualify for next years world cup, we have put our hat into the ring for hosting the 2018 or 2022 world cups and the A League has just started we have Robbie Fowler that has just come over to try and push the code forward more, so there is stuff worthy of your attention which i am sure has not escaped your attention, i just wonder if your worried if you blog about football, you will put the stick into the hornets nest. In fact you could start a discussion and gain peoples thoughts on why a lot of Australian's seem to have a disregard for the round ball game, where did it come from, did it come from the lack of exposure from journalists, or lack of exposure on the T.V networks as they would rather sports that have 4 quarters and lots of breaks so they can sell advertising space, do we have some thing in common here with the U.S, do we gain any thing by trying to limit the amount of exposure we give the game.
If you want proof go out throw the name football in the mix of a conversation, see what happens, see it get kicked around and thrown out with disgust by some, we can't even decide if the game in this country merits to be called football, this is before we even get on to any thing else...and there is lots to be gained....
But we are getting better now thou, we can mention the game in public, i'll leave you with a quote from one of my junior players dad, " it took me three years before i could mention my son played the game to other people"
Funny how ones thoughts and feelings are considered radical in some places, but the norm in others.....
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wjburt,
You are surely having a laugh.
Look up any POM related news website post and you will see a great swathe of anti-British rantings.
Aussies do it to be noticed from their (large and beautiful) corner of the Globe.
Without screaming red faced at the top of their voices, look at us and how truly brilliant we are, no one would notice you.
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To Nick Bryant,
Yesterday you had a marvellous piece on BBC World News shown in Australia, which ended up outside a Pie-cart. Is there a link to this on the BBC website?
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No one likes to lose a hotly-contested sporting competition steeped in tradition. The Aussies especially do not like to lose. At cricket. To the English. End of.
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soapboxJoe in #91, I have to say I thing there is, sadly, a definite ring of truth to this:
"Aussies do it to be noticed from their (large and beautiful) corner of the Globe.
Without screaming red faced at the top of their voices, look at us and how truly brilliant we are, no one would notice you."
The Aussies do sometimes seem to behave like the bumptious short man who is desperate to ensure that he isn't ignored.
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Well, well. Some interesting comments here.
I find them especially interesting having taken a bit of stick over on another of Nick's blogs for suggesting the Aussies don't take criticism well. Nor, it would seem, do they like losing. It's fine for the Aussies to brag when they win but if the British seem pleased with their victory they should stop being "pathetic" (in the words of wjburt).
Someone else (apologies for losing track of who) wrote:
"The cheek of it is Australians call us whingers, having worked in Australia and with Australians in this country I can assure you they are the biggest group of moaners when things don't go their way."
Unfortunately this is so true. Having run a business in Australia I can assure you that the biggest complainers when something hasn't gone even slightly wrong are the Australians. I have plenty of British customers and they usually are quite reluctant to complain or "whinge", quite contrary to that favourite stereotype that Aussies go on about. When they do "whinge", they do so very politely; much more politely than the Aussies themselves do.
I increasingly find that Aussies seem to like everything on their own terms, to make up the rules about what can and can't be said/done and to use them to suit themselves. They are only happy when it's them that are winning and appear to believe that they have the right to gloat and joke about other nations whilst responding with distinct huffiness when it's turned back on them.
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@campantman #94: Aha, I think it's all starting to make sense. Campantman, how tall are you?
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Good attempt at humour there, SeansName. Didn't work, but good attempt nonetheless.
6ft, exactly, since you ask.
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Good afternoon campantman. It's medication time.
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Gee, you're so clever, sydneycynic. We are privileged to be able to benefit from your wisdom.
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Hooray, I have not had so much fun in my long life. I must do it again as the poms picked up on my comments but ignored the ones they could not emulate. Anyway what about a great female dicus thrower and the pole vaulter eh.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What is it they say about sarcasm campantman? Isn't it something about it being the lowest form of wit?
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From reading some of the most vitriolic and irrelevant comments on this blog, I can only endorse the Don's comment that cricket is not a light-hearted business, especially between England and Australia. I just pray that the Ashes post-mortem doesn't drag on to ruin Christmas.
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Living in mainland Europe it is damn difficult to see any of the cricket on TV, or videos. Much of the time BBC, due to contractual reasons, cannot show stuff on their sites. SkyNews just show very brief snippets which is all they have time for. So, yesterday, quite by chance, I went to The Age newspaper site in Melbourne and there it all was. I watched highlights from all four innings in perfect video replays. I was ecstatic! Thank you Australia, and thank you The Age newspaper!
(P.S. Still say those two run-outs were the turning points in the entire game. Australia were in with a real chance up to then).
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I couldn't understand all the "interest" in such a boring game ,now it's clear,test cricket is some sort of ritual battle between Poms and Aussies,there's no other possible explanation.
chazzacant,
I still think that the Emperor is completely naked, I've seen people READING at cricket matches(understandable of course).Perhaps I just don't have the gene for cricket.
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Hey Chazzacant (#88),
Peter Roebuck is a Pom. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Roebuck
In fact at one point, he captained England in a one day international.
The next time you complain about "Australian" commentators, perhaps you should do a little bit of homework.
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There are truly some hurting losers out there. Boy, it's nice to know that another nation takes defeat in the same blinkered, obstinate manner that we English do. Not prepared to admit that we were fairly beaten, it's all too often been our habit to blame someone else.
Well, welcome to our world. And get used to it. Taking all the pitches and decisions and luck into account, it came down to one single factor.
We were better (sorry, ARE better) than you. And with the absence and injuries to our two best players, we beat you with one hand tied behind our back.
Now run along and get me a beer!
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>Hooray, I have not had so much fun in my long life.I must do it again as the poms picked up on my >comments but ignored the ones they could not emulate.
Every comment you have made, every single one, I have completely taken apart at the joints, and exposed as the nonsensical, bitter, confused rantings of an Aussie unable to deal with defeat, and reacting to the situation like a spoilt child who can't get his own way.
Nothing you have said has been ignored. You are deluded.
>Anyway what about a great female dicus thrower and the pole vaulter eh.
Shush now, you're making a fool of yourself.
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The trouble with beating Australians at anything is that they are stubborn so-and-sos and will come back like a sequel to a "Slasher" movie..where the body count is higher and there's a lot more blood up the walls. Stay tuned folks...
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It seems to me that Australia’s sporting ability has been waning a bit in recent years. A bad rugby world cup and current tri nations, the brits getting a higher medal count in Beijing, losing the ashes and even getting stuffed by the tall whites yesterday. Well I suppose you still have the AFL surely so one can bet you in that? ......oh sorry did Ireland not win the last compromise rules game. Oh dear!
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Sport has traditionally been the arena in which Australia shines and enjoys superiority, except of course at football (as in soccer) which, for reasons I don't fully understand, is a game that the Aussies don't seem to hold in high esteem. They don't seem to care about it much at all. Another way in which Australia is analogous with America.
CrumlinT in #110, I think perhaps you are correct to say that it seems as if the Aussies have lost a bit of their prowess lately when you look at the rugby, cricket and Olympics. Interesting to observe, though very likely simply a bad run and not significant in any way.
The Australians have loved being able to outclass other countries at certain sports over the years because it has afforded them an opportunity to be noticed internationally (which they are generally not, whether they like it or not) and to be 'known' for something they can actually feel proud of. The Aussies are aware that often they are associated as a nation with rather unflattering, trivial things like their frequently bizarre (from a Northern hemisphere perspective, at least) flora and fauna, beer-swilling, barbecues, strine accent, Crocodile Dundee and, er, Neighbours. All rather silly, of course, and difficult to feel genuinely proud of. The Australians know that their traditional international reputation is not always a hugely complimentary one. Sport has provided the Australians with a means of garnering not only attention but, more crucially, respect.
Take away someone's main source of respect and of course they won't like it too much. This is why a number of Australians don't cope tremendously well with defeat at cricket. I think the English are quite used to be trampled on at sport (and in general) and so when we lose there is the sense that defeat was inevitable; it is not a massive surprise to us. I think the English expect to lose at sport. The Aussies do not.
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@105 Treaclebeak: Spot on. All sporting contests between England and Australia are a sort of ongoing "War of Independence" ... almost makes me wish we'd had an actual war like the Yanks. We could have relied on France being on our side. Then maybe there would be less spite in our ongoing relations with each other as evidenced by this blog!
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Teaclebeak, old chap, you really must get your "genes" checked-out? Maybe the results will show you like something like "Come Dancing"? Cricket's a great old game, and what I like about it it's strictly "ours" meaning, of course, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, West Indies, England, Wales, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Kenya, Zimbabwe, plus welcome "newcomers" like Holland, Scotland & Ireland (yes, really!) etc. Hope I did not miss anyone out (if I did, sincere apologies) but to heck with the U.S., France, Germany, and the like, this grand old game is "ours" to enjoy.
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To 111. Campantman. I agree, but i do think Australia is well renowned for its good lifestyle, friendly people, and the inventions it has given to the world.
Australia usually shines in every part of life apart from the movie industry and influence outside the Asia Pacific region.
When foreigners talk down Australia they are just usually jealous about how a country such as Australia could end up being so good at just about everything.
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Oh the fact that Australia has 30 million people less than England, doesn't that mean England should beat us more? Australia punches way above our weight.
I wish we had 100 million people, we would just own the world in absolutely everything.
Anyway good thing the pommies won, its reignited the fight! its boring smashing them all the time.
Too bad its not the 1700's then we could have a war with the pommies to settle it once and for all!
Anyway can anyone tell me why the pommies yes including those bloody celts! stole the top left half of the Australian flag? what a bunch of thieves!
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OzNozz: Go to war? Good grief, how terribly boring and unnecessary. I would no more want to go to war with the Aussies than shoot myself. Let's settle things on the playing field, eh?
P.S. My boyhood heroes (and I mean heroes) were Don Bradman (who else), Keith Miller, Lindsay Hassett, Ray Lindwall, et al. And I'm English as fish and chips!
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'Too bad its not the 1700's then we could have a war with the pommies to settle it once and for all!'
This is fantastic stuff, keep it up! I love the Aussie's earnest but child like enthusiasm for sport - they really do take it seriously, don't they?
They don't have an awful lot else to brag about (name 3 great Aussie inventors, scientists, philosophers, engineers etc. etc. - tricky, isn't it?)so we mustn't deprive them of this. They have a couple of good newspaper columnists (Germaine Greer and Clive James) and a fantastic comedian (Barry Humphries) and a few good actors but - oddly - they all live either here or in the USA.
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Some Australians, as much as and the same as all other nations, cannot live up to their own self image. "Oh were so laid back" they cry, and then get their panties all twisted up when they lose a sporting competition and spend the next month trying to find all sorts of reasons why it had something to do with the "others" being nasty and corrupt and cheats and generally just not as good people as those good ol' down to earth ocker Aussies. Like I said, this attitude applies to some, not all. Its simple national arrogance. Those who have it the worst - and please note this applies to anybody from anywhere - are those who think they could not possibly be arrogant because of who they are and where they come from. As a famous Australian opera singer once said "there is no such thing as an arrogant Australian". What a hoot, how arrogant and snooty and snobbish does this statement sound?. Get over yourselves, you lost a cricket competition, you are no better and no worse than anyone else. For those Aussies doing the "we only lost because blah blah" bleating realize how sad and pathetic you make your country appear.
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Thinking about it, I can't name one great Aussie inventor, scientist, engineer or philosopher let alone three. That Barry Humphries is great though, isn't he? Gladioli! Fantastic.
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Affront, you're forgetting the guy who invented the rotating clothes line.
More seriously, of course there's tonnes of Aussie inventors. A recent one I'd not heard of was the guy who invented the bit of software that registers new software to a single computer. Clever guy, who then had to take Microsoft on in a massive Patent Infringement case (that he won).
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After "thinking about it", affront couldn't come up with any decent Australian inventors. I shouldn't go too far into your level of intelligence because that would be cruel and it would make me feel like I was drowning innocent puppies.
In order to assist in your personal development, I would draw your attention to Howard Florey. He was the one who invented the method by which penicillin could be used as a medicine. Before that all Alexander Fleming did with his petrie dish was shove it in the bottom draw. Without him I doubt whether you, me and billions of others would be around today. He won the Nobel prize and I understand the BBC is doing a series on him. It's starring that British actor who played Jim McNulty in "The Wire". If you chose to change over from repeats of "The Bugs Bunny Show" you might actually learn something. Howard Florey was even on our pre-polymer bank notes. These notes, by the way, were invented by an Australian. There's also more recent inventions like the Black Box Flight Recorder and the cervical cancer vaccine, "Gardasil". I also happen to think the rotary clothes line and rotary lawn mower (which we invented), are damn fine things.
I trust you have learnt something today. You really shouldn't be proud of the fact that you can't think.
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This is entirely off the point, but it is astonishing how proudly people announce their bigotries. Read back over previous entries - with no qualms at all people declare there dislike of millions of people based on nothing more than nationality. Read a history book, this is not a healthy thing. I am frequently amazed at people who believe themseleves cool and hip and open-minded and wotnot making proud statements declaring their dislike of humans based on abstract association. Its like they didnt really get it. "Ho yes guvnor, racism is very bad. No, of course Iam not anti-gay. Women are equal....knowing all this makes me a true member of the cool club yes? Wot, the Yanks and the Poms? Hate the bastards." Talk about miss the point. Analyze it. We are not so base as to accept that race defines the nature of a human...but nationality, well of course that does. And we feed this nonesense to our kids and wonder why we still fight wars.
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Well there are a few poms here that took my post a bit too seriously!
That's the problem with other countries, they don't understand dead pan humour.
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Also too many poms don't understand that pretty much all the great inventions were Australian, bar the TV and the Internet, pretty much all these day to day useful things and practical items were invented by Australians. Granted Australia hasn't made any world changing items like the TV and Internet, it does have its fair share of items made.
Penicillan
Speedo Swimwear
Modern Beach Patrol
Utes
The Electric Drill
Latex Gloves
The Two Stroke Lawn Mower
The notepad
Aerogard Insect Repellent
garage roller door
Pre-paid Postage
Xerox Photocopying
Polymer Bank Notes
Refrigeration
Wine Cask
Secret Ballot
Electronic Pacemaker
The Bionic Ear
Aspro
Spray-on-skin
Freestyle Swimming (Originally called Australian Crawl but changed because the poms couldn't bow down to something invented by colonials!)
Also many many more, i just couldn't be bothered listing them. Now those pommys need to get the countries correct. It is New Zealand that has invented barely anything and you could put the names of all their inventions on a postage stamp, whereas you could write a whole book about Australia's
Get your facts right before you try to make a joke of a country's success or downfall. Not make a lie of it like post 119 onwards. otherwise you seem foolish!
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Nozz, hate to be picky, but......
Utes! What? It's just a pickup truck.
Freestyle. You're having a laugh!
I'll leave others to check up on the other dubious ones!
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