China goes sweet and sour on Australia
In the newsrooms of the northern hemisphere, August is ritually known, of course, as the 'silly season,' the time when daft stories receive undue prominence for the simple reason that not much else is happening.
Here in Australia, at the fag end of the southern winter, it has been more like the serious season. August has seen a steady stream of major stories, from the defeat in parliament of the emissions trading scheme, the centrepiece of the Rudd government's environmental strategy, to the interim report of the Royal Commission into the Victorian bushfires, which detailed a litany of bungles and breakdowns at the highest levels of the emergency services (no working fax machine, no available computer, no one in overall charge).
There were the arrests in connection with the alleged terror plots in Melbourne, and the awfulness of the air crash which killed 13 people, nine of them Australians, en route to the Kokoda Track in Papua New Guinea, a place which may be starting to rival Gallipoli in the minds of younger, more Asia-orientated Australians.
But the running story of the month has been the rapid deterioration of Australia's relationship with China. Two issues have been particularly problematic: the visit to Australia of the Uighur leader, Rebiya Kadeer, and the charges levelled against Australian mining executive, Stern Hu, who works in the Shanghai office of Rio Tinto.
It seems that every other day this month I have been filing on one or other of those stories, from the efforts of Chinese diplomats to stop the organisers of the Melbourne Film Festival from showing a documentary about Rebiya Kadeer's life to the effort to stop her speaking at the National Press Club; from the allegations aired in the Chinese media about Stern Hu stealing state secrets to the downgrading of those charges to stealing commercial secrets.
I've blogged about the relationship with China before, but the point is worth emphasising again: that most people expected Kevin Rudd, the Mandarin-speaking Prime Minister (that phrase almost merits a special function key on my laptop, since I use it so often) to forge a much closer relationship. But relations between Beijing and Canberra have reached what some analysts are calling a 10-year low.
If you will excuse the Chinese culinary pun, a relationship which promised to be so very sweet has turned unexpectedly sour.
It is in the mutual self-interest of both countries to sustain cordial relations. China needs Australia's resources; Australia needs China's custom. So I guess it should come as no surprise that in the midst of this diplomatic downturn, PetroChina has just agreed to buy $A50 billion of liquefied natural gas from a yet-to-be-developed gas field off the coast of Western Australia.
But the centrality of resources to the relationship can also be deeply problematic. After all, much of the heat of the present overlapping disputes stems from the failure of the Anglo-Australian mining giants to reach agreement on the price of iron ore exports to China.
As an aside, you get the feeling that Delhi's strong and active response to the spate of assaults on Indian students in Melbourne and Sydney may have been influenced partly by the Rudd government's refusal to sell uranium to India.
For all that, the main point of this blog was to get back to you on your comments from the past few weeks. Some really strong strands on everything from the future of the Australian publishing industry to whether Aussies are sporting or not.
On the film Balibo, (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/nickbryant/2009/08/revisiting_east_timor_deaths.html) a number of you made the point - Parragirl and Brumby2 - that I concentrated on the five Australian-based journalists to the exclusion of the East Timorese. A fault of the blog, admittedly, but not of the movie, as some of you may now have had the chance to see. As for the idea that the story of the Balibo Five is relatively little-known? I stand by that. And Brumby2 I promise you that I knew of the Balibo Five well before the movie, having covered the outcome of coronial inquest two years ago (incidentally, one of the Brits, Brian Peters, comes from my home town, Bristol, where Balibo received an advance screening for the families).
Loads of good commentary from The True Aussie Sporting Spirit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/nickbryant/2009/08/its_a_sad_day_when.html. Perhaps I was too generous, as paulcrossleyiii, (someone who I often look upon as an ally) suggests (take off the rose-tinted specs for a minute mate!) and should have mentioned the claims of racial abuse from the visiting Sri Lankan and South Africa teams in 2003 and 2006. Foraggio makes a similar point, and highlights the rather graceless manner in which John Howard handed over the rugby world cup to Martin Johnson in 2003. Again, good point.
Still, I do think the 'win-at-all costs' Aussie way gets a bit overdone, and that a premium is attached to good sportsmanship. Just look at the Brownlow medal, which does not go to the best performing player in Aussie Rules, but the 'fairest and best.' If, any stage of the season a player is suspended for foul play, he is deemed ineligible. I've yet to rest my case on this one, but it's another factoid for the jury to consider.
Obama stardust for teflon Rudd? http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/nickbryant/2009/08/obama_stardust_for_teflon_rudd.html didn't get many comments. Politics blogs rarely do. But one additional point to make is that Malcolm Turnbull faces an almost impossible conundrum. One of the main things people seem to dislike about him is his hasty ambition, and that is a very hard thing to disown or decouple yourself from when you are trying to become Prime Minister after just five years in parliament. How do you downplay your ambition when you want to become the PM? A tricky dilemma.
A few updates. On the book debate, I understand the matter will be discussed on 17 September in cabinet. I'll keep you posted.
And, of course, there's another date for your diaries in September - the open-top bus tour of the victorious England team....although have you seen the weather forecast for The Oval? Talk about raining on our parade.....
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25949120-5001505,00.html
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~54~RS~)
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Nick:
Yes, it is very true that August is the time of *year* for the silly and daft stories...
=Dennis Junior=
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Nick:
How do you downplay your ambition when you want to become the PM? A tricky dilemma.
Yes, the downfall, is you have to downplay the situation; because the head leader could removed you from "the high-level.."
=Dennis Junior=
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Well...That's the inherent weakness of your blog, Nick
As a foreign correspondent your job is not to find another British expat as 'someone I often look upon as an ally'
It's to report meaningfully on Australian news and attitudes
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It does well to note, not mentioned in the Article or Blog, the $A50 billion is not all China's. A full half is that of RoyalDutchShell in the future LNG field. Amoung other items Shell will be providing, a Shell developed floating collection hub. Money seems to smooth over even the roughest of tifts.
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I guess we Australians have to decide whether our principles and independence are for sale.
China is a bully; not only intolerant of dissent within its own borders but unprepared to accept critism from without.
We are only 221 years old and in that time we've been dictated to and used by the British, the Americans and the Japanese. I guess China thinks it should get in on the act.
Maybe, just maybe, we should become a little smarter. Keep our distance from our customers and accept that in the end China needs us as much as we need them.
The Australian government should ignore the current "crisis". The Chinese are business people; they'll deal with the devil if there's a dollar in it.
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Coming to your rescue again Nick....
Wollemi, firstly please don't assume that all Brits hold the same views as each other, otherwise I'll be forced to conclude that you and Pauline Hanson are intellectual bed-fellows. Secondly, did you write Nick's job description? I think you got it almost right, but it's also his job to consider things from a British perspective occasionally. Australia does an extremely good job of publicising itself well in the UK, so occasionally someone has to point out that the grass isn't always greener. Sorry if that gets in your way.
As for the China issue, I think WJBurt got it right. The world is going to need Australia's resources for a long time to come. There's no need to sell them off quickly now. If China and others are behaving unreasonably towards Australia then sell to someone else, later. Not that the Stern Hu case is necessarily a good example, we don't yet know what he's supposed to have done exactly - but there itself is a problem, it's a long time now since he was first held.
Finally Nick, you really should know better than to talk about open topped buses, no matter how tongue in cheek.
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Interesting,and disturbing, comments re India,I assumed the media hysteria there was the result of tabloid journalism rather than a calculated campaign by the Indian government.How is Australia going to cope with TWO huge bullies in the Asia-Pacific region?
The Middle Kingdom is returning to its ancient policy of ensuring that the outer barbarians acknowledge Han supremacy,there are interesting times ahead.
We're only 108 years old,really.
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China has a communist government which will never allow freedom and is by nature a bully. Nick you should remember the communist governments of the USSR and eastern Europe. All of these government removed freedom and were unsuitable to do business with. They succeeded in reducing their nations to bankruptcy causing them to fall, as their people wanted to return to freedom. The late Pope John Paul 11 was instrumental in overcoming them and Europe is a better continent now. Australia has always believed in freedom and equality, until John Howard, and thankfully he has been removed by the Australian people. We are resource rich, and China needs our resources, and we need to sell to them to improve our life style.
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The only way out for China in the Stern Hu thing is to name him as a spy and deport him, cancel his visa etc - maybe throw him in jail & quietly give him over to a friendly embassy at 3am one night.
They cant let him go because they absolutely will not back down from their initial charges - that would lose face (even though only a person looking with Chinese eyes would consider they maintained any face at all in this process).
They cant convict and kill him because of the inevitable 'China Cartel' that all suppliers would set up if they think their staff will be killed for a Beijing discount. Everyone who sells to China will suddenly discover their costs are remarkably identical..
As for Kadeer - it's done. The film was shown, someone gave a speech, we all agreed that the situation was bad but the showing was a victory for free speech, then checked the footy results & put $20 on Punter to score +150 in Australia's win at the Oval.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Understandably Australia's relationship with Britain and often America receive much comment in replies to Nick's blog and they are often fun and often they say more about the commentator than the subject. However it is increasingly clear that Australia's most important international relationship is with China. The 'British Century' ended 109 years ago, the 'American Century' ended 9 years ago. We are now in the 'Chinese century' and Australia is in the fore-front of the world's relationship with China. For all the flack Britain and America received for their time of world dominance does anyone outside China relish the prospect of Chinese world dominance with greater enthusiasm? Australia needs to take a guenuinely strategic long tern view of it's relationship with China, as was said earlier Chins is not the only market for resources. Does anyone else see a parallel with Argentina which effectively became an economic colony of Britain in the late 19th and early 20th century? I guenuinly shudder at the thought of Australia throwing away it's future liberty for short term political expediency.
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It would be better if Australia could do without close contact with China. I've been to 50 countries around the world including China. Travelled around the countryside & cities for 3 weeks. Never before have I experienced such arrogant, bad mannered people & choking pollution ! Twice I had maids walk into my hotel room after lunch while napping despite a 'do not disturb' on door. I was naked. Not sure who got the biggest shock. This was a year before the Olympics. I won't be returning there. Better Chinese food in Australia if you know where to go. It's a big sewer with lots of rats with gold teeth.
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I think the whole thing about Rudd mishandling the China relationship is way off. My experience in China is that when the relationship is harmonious you are being done over. Basically, they are playing on our fear of upsetting a very profitable relationship. The fact Rudd has not grovelled I find comforting. I think he genuinely knows what he's doing. As I read in someone's article in the SMH, the problem is that Rudd knows China too well.
That said, we have to be prepared for the relationship to totally breakdown and not to be afraid of that happening. It's a distinct possiblity oneday not too far away. Better to walk away from the cash and maintain our dignity. It might also prompt the government to maybe look at getting behind some other industry, or implementing some long term vision for a more high tech economy, rather than just digging rocks out of the ground. Our resources really are a blessing and a curse.
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To 12. Zola21
You must stayed a very really cheap doggy hotel, you should be gratefully they treats you with housekeepers around. I have been to China few times a year, the hotels I stayed in are so very well managed and better facilities. They are 100 times better value than those in Australia, Japan and Europe.
It is very arrogant to call Chinese people are bad mannered people, you sound to me are very arrogant and horror mannered.
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#6 Paul
Do you need to 'rescue', Nick? Why?
The pen is mightier than the ..etc...etc..and I'm sure Nick doesn't need an 'ally' to write a blog
re China
I'm somewhat of a Sinophile, I think Rudd is too. The people themselves have aspirations similar to many Australians - family, good health, a reasonable standard of living and control over their lives. The country is immeasurably changed every time I've visited, not just millions lifted out of poverty but hundreds of millions
Agree with #13, they take pride in executing tough business deals and respect people who do the same. I think Rudd knows that
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I noted a couple of posters mentioned 109 years, which they seems to indicate was our independence from that time. We are not. 1901 was when we became a Federation; that is we decided to have an over riding body to deal with issues difficult to do while we were run by States. Even up until Gough Whitlam's time, we had our legislation 'observed' by the House or Lords, before the bills could be technically passed, even though no bills were ever refused. And of course we still have the British Queen as our head of state. Now even though the Queen has never interfered in the running of our country, there is nothing to say she, or her predecessor, can't. No one ever imagined a Governor General would over ride the Parliament of the day, till Curr changed that. There is no guarantee that a future Monarch won't do the same.
Only fools, and some ex Brits, see Australia as an independent nation.
As to the Chinese matter, we had more Chinese and Indians in this country in the early days than many wish to admit...and very few willing to admit what was truly their demise under English Colonial rule.
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#15 Wollemi. Learn to recognise sarcasm.
I would think that "family, good health, a reasonable standard of living and control over their lives" are common to many nations/people. You might as well say that the Chinese are great because of their desire to breathe, eat etc...
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Rudd stressed the tensions were inevitable between Chinese and Australian nations with different values, but Chinese see this value was that Canberra chose to side with a terrorist, it is very much against the wishes of the family members of 157 murdered oridinary Chinese people in urumqi by musilm terrorists which masterminded by Rebiya Kadeer. If australia chose Rebiya Kadeer as a friend, 1.5 billion Chinese people are not. How simple is that!
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All this is, is China trying to flex its muscles, or just testing the waters to see how much it can get away with. If it was really serious about Rebiya Kadeer they would have issues with America who is harbouring this ‘Terrorist’, but because they see Australia as a small nation they think they can push us around.
No one in Australia would have even know who Rebiya Kadeer was until China made an issue over this and now most people do and are understanding her issues with China, so I think it has done Rebiya Kadeer a favour by giving her free publicity and created support for her and her cause.
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Everyone in china agrees that Australia's "sino-phobic politicians" were leading the world's "anti-China chorus" and siding with Mrs Kadeer- a "terrorist". If Australia is being a blunter providing Kadeer a platform for anti-Chinese separatist activities, Canberra chose to side with a terrorist and severely hurt China's national interests, it hurts Chinese people's feeling too. Im not qualified to be a patriotic person either for Australia or China, but Australia is absolutely wrong on this issue.
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To 19 dungutti
Quoted your comment ".... now most people(Australians) do and are understanding her issues with China..."
You tell me if you people(Australians) support her muslim fundamental terrorisiam tactic stretagy to kill for understanding her issues with China? She incites hate between enthnics in China, why does Australian gives a platform to wash off her blood straned hands?
You Australian authority has done Rebiya Kadeer a favour, not China.
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And China inflames racial tensions in African nations by supplying controlling groups with arms which are used against minority groups, tofupanda. China is far from whiter than white.
Australia is once again on the frontline in Asia and this time against a world power not just a regional power. It should do what it always does and stand up to those who attempt to bully it instead of pandering to them. The sooner China learns that Aussies don't take kindly to being told what to do (God knows we Brits have learnt that!) they'll re-appraise their tactics.
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Re tofupanda's comments re the Rebiya Kadeer incident. The basis of a democracy is the freedom to speak, and to be allowed to speak. Rebiya Kadeer came to our country, had her say, and now has either gone or has faded from the public spotlight. And the result? Most Aussies, including myself, need to look up her name to remember who she is. We just don't care. Just because a person speaks their mind, doesn't mean they are followed, or believed. In fact I would say there have been a number of people who have taken an opinion against her and what she stands for.
In the meantime Australia and China have signed the biggest trade deal in Aussie's history. There is a friendship between the two countries that will inevitably be strained from time to time because of our differing political beliefs, but in the long term, that friendship over rides all else.
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There is no solid evidence about China inflames racial tension in african, it is again "sino-phobic politicians" were leading the world's "anti-China chorus".
Quote your comment "..Australia is once again on the frontline in Asia ... stand up to those who attempt to bully it instead of pandering to them... "
Australian supports Urygur muslim fundamental terrorists against Chinese sovereign and threatening ordinary Chinese people's living, you tell me who bullying who?
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Is tofupanda #14 and tofupanda #18 the same person?
I have visions of a 1984-like Ministry of Truth somewhere in Beijing staffed by indoctrinated Party members fanatically responding to any critism of the State...
Rudd is correct not to capitulate to the hubristic nature of Chinese diplomacy.
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Whites fight terrorist who kill whites but protect those kill yellow.
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to petesyc
Rebiya Kadeer is terrorist.
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"Terrorist kill yellow" is freedom fighter.
Terrorist kill whites is terrorist.
Very interesting white thinking.
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China has many problems right now and some that will show up next year. As with any political system, when things are not going well at home it is good policy to create distractions. As the economic recovery happens, and at some point it will, countries may be less interested in economic entanglements with China and the issues of quality control, health standards and the impact on national economies when purchasing from China with no real opportunity for the labor force to have standard working conditions and pay. Of course captialist could care less but the gneral public may become a little more selective in what they purchase and where it is made. U.S. steel manufacturers were fighting any restrictions on sales to Japan right up until Pearl Harbor. Never trust businessmen with your national interest.
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Everytime anyone so much as implies that China may not be the squeaky clean nation 1.2 billion Chinese have been brain washed into believing it is, the organised pro Chinese bloggers in this country try to swamp all legitimate debate.
They sprout the grossest of lies on the basis that the louder you lie, the more people will believe you.
Well here are some irrefutable facts:
1. China is a dictatorship.
2. It suppresses all dissent within its borders with deadly force
3. It attempts to supress critism outside China with threats, lies and intimidation.
4. It attempts to use the very democratic institutions in other countries to justify its criminal actions while denying their own people those very same institutions.
5. China is an international bully
6. Like all bullies, you must stand up to them.
Now, you China execusists; do your worst.
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Tofupanda,
In Australia everyone is able to form their own opinion so you would have to ask each individual person for their opinion on Kadeer. I have personally not read anything to sugguest she is a terrorist, so could you please explain to me why she is a terrorist?
Idowantyou
One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedon Fighter
Some people sugguest Mao Zedong or George Washington or Che Guevara were terrorist other would sugguest they were freedom fighters so i guess it depends on whos side you are on.
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paulcrossleyiii, writing in #6, I agree entirely with this:
"...it's also (Nick's) job to consider things from a British perspective occasionally. Australia does an extremely good job of publicising itself well in the UK, so occasionally someone has to point out that the grass isn't always greener. Sorry if that gets in your way."
The grass is not always greener in Australia (perhaps a poor choice of phrase, considering how decidely brown the grass often is in Victoria at least) and it is tiring to observe that so many seem totally determined to propagate this myth. I know this is slightly off-topic, but why is this? Why must all British expats in Australia sing the praises of their adopted home at all times and with such high passion? I mean, can we have a reality check on this at some point? Like now? Where does this rubbish come from? In most practical, day-to-day respects, life in Australia is no better than life in the UK. The same harsh realities of modern life exist only with more sunshine and more complacent swagger. Where is this magical town in Australia where life is perfect? I can only assume that this is where all these expats must be congregated.
Anyway, rant over.
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#1
Petesyc. I think the situation of independence and who has what power under the Australian Constitution is even murkier than you describe. We seem now to have 2 Heads of State, the monarch and the GG
As a result of the 1999 republic referendum, the monarch has now been democratically elected by the Australian people. Peculiarly elected for life, but elected nonetheless, so the implication is that the monarch is sackable by the people (in another referendum)
By contrast, the GG has been appointed, so cannot be sacked by popular vote. As shown in 1975 the GG can sack a democratically elected PM who still controls the Lower House and as also shown in 1975 on Garfield Barwick's advice, that action is non justiciable. So the GG is potentially answerable to noone - not the people, the PM nor the law.
It's also rather murky on just how the decision is taken for Australia to go to war. We may yet wake up one morning and find Quentin Bryce has run amok, sacked Rudd, and launched an invasion of NZ
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oops
#33 should be in reply to Petesyc #16
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re Wollemi's comment: You are absoluetly correct..just as John Howard wanted it...and who was appointed to lead the pro Republican argument???? The current Liberal National opposition leader. We were served a game, set and match before we were even permitted to play. Then again the Liberal Nationals have traditionally been pro Monarchy, so why did the people expect otherwise under the Libs?
Re idowantyou's Rebiya Kadeer is terrorist comment: Obviously I missed the court case hearing where she was charged with terrorism and found guilty. Had I heard that was the case, I would be saying she needs to be arrested by our goverment and handed over to your government, assuming you are Chinese, and that we have legal options to interact with your government.
Re idowantyou's comment re:
"Terrorist kill yellow" is freedom fighter.
Terrorist kill whites is terrorist.
Very interesting white thinking."
I find this quite puzzling as I have never heard this. I have heard similar concerning muslims but not concerning 'yellow' or Asians, aa I assume you mean. To me it is obvious that we need to allow more information to flow to people, such as yourself, who seem to be isolated from what is REALLY being said and done. And the sooner the better.
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#32 Campantman, yep I agree, but you're not allowed to comment on it, otherwise the whinging accusations start. As much criticism as you want of British weather, is of course allowed (it really hurts me when I hear that).
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paulcrossleyiii in #37, you are right to say that one is not supposed to comment on it. If you complain about Britain, that's fine, because the Australians take that as an indirect compliment about Australia. If you complain about Australia, you are a whinging pom and should shut-up immediately. If the Aussies criticise Britain, on the other hand, that is just their 'humour' and therefore perfecly acceptable. The Aussies seem to think they should be allowed to write the rules on this and that's the end of it. Trying to get an Australian to accept a criticism of Australia is like trying to get the Pope to admit that Catholicism has its flaws. They are second only to the Americans with their extraordinary and often completely misjudged patriotism.
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Hey, Nick; how about a blog on the mysteries of the Aussie mindset? I'm thinking the patriotism, the swagger, the propensity for apathy/complacency, the sniffy attitude towards the British and Britain itself. The usual suspect, I guess. Could be interesting/controversial to hear everyone's views on this topic.
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Campantman I'm a little confused. Are you commenting on ex Brits or Aussies...and how can you tell the difference? Most ex Brits I have encountered, living in Aussie, claim to be Aussies, eve though they still hold strongly to their original accent, refuse to accept Aborigines as having intelligence, refer to any Aussies with Irish decendency as 'bog dwellers', and still scream that Aussie must remain British, and not allow south east Asians...or heaven forbid...Indians, Paki's or any other 'dark skin' person to dwell here..."after all, look what they did to England'...often the excused used by same for coming to Aussie in the first place. And as for the grass being greener, most generational Aussies call Aussie a 'sunburnt country' not a green one. Maybe it's time for the British Home Secretary to start educating any Brits wanting to emigrate to Aussie about how we really are...then we wouldn't get so many whinging 'Poms'.
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I think paulcrossley and campantman oughta get a room. There appears to be a whole lotta love going on there. Maybe they can invite others like tofupanda along. Seeing Australians only come second to the Americans in their misplaced importance and patriotism this means the Chinese opinions are far less objectionable.
Whenever the above two individuals offer an opinion they never miss the opportunity to deride and denigrate the country in which they live. I have always been curious as to the reasons why individuals choose to live in a country which they find so repugnant.
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sydneycynic you are spot on. I don't normally post on these threads but as an ex-pat Aussie, generally follow them with interest as I like to hear outside views, no matter how disagreeable or otherwise I may find them.
However, I've noticed campantman's posts usually make a passing reference to the main article before launching into a diatribe on Australia and its peoples' countless, supposed shortcomings. It's the same tune every time and it's ironic they end their first post in this thread with 'rant over'... The words "chip" and "shoulder" come to mind.
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tofupanda, if you were in charge of China, what are the top 5 things you would do to improve the place?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
SydneyCynic, I have to congratulate on showing unusual originality, instead of the whinging pom tactic you've implied that myself and Campatman are somehow romantically linked. Maybe it's the inferred homo-erotic nature that you find amusing or insulting. Whatever, well done mate, keep it up, it really makes your point well.
However you do seem slightly over-sensitive, in the process you're kind of making Campatman's point for him. I can't speak for CMan of course (check out the over-familiarity there; we're obviously well into each other right?) but I don't find your country repugnant, and I don't criticise it in every single post I make. That you take any negative comments at all in such a way is exactly what we're talking about.
PeteSyc, you seem to be talking about any older generation Aussies (sorry to generalise so). Those comments certainly don't apply to most of the Brits I've met here, especially the "refuse to accept Aborigines as having intelligence" bit (we might not understand the Aborigine population very well, having no reference point at home, but that doesn't mean that we're not appalled by some of the things we see).
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If tofupanda and idowantyou said the same malignant and incendiary things about China as they do about Australia they'd be labelled as "terrorists". Instead they'll probably get a job at the Chinese Embassy or be appointed as Judges in the upcoming Stern Hu case.
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I can't believe how sydneycynic and sjw3000 (should I now at this juncture suggest that they are romantically involved because the latter agreed with the former and said they were ''spot on''?) don't see that by reacting as they do they are completely proving my point. Why do Aussies and a significant proportion of expats here have to get so uptight the instant someone says something critical of Australia? I have never in my life experienced this kind of impassioned and instinctive reflex defense of anything. It's instantaneous and so predictable that you could safely bet large sums on it occurring. If you cannot cope with people criticising your country/adopted country and feel the need to start throwing accusations at those that dare to do so, perhaps you need to reassess whether it is in fact you that has the chip on your shoulder. Or move to a country like China where such dissent is illegal.
At least the British can cope with both sides of the story when it comes to their country. What is it about people living down under that they can't do the same?
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A big thank you to those who unflinchingly offered to provide a real-world demonstration of my point and helped therefore to highlight its validity. Well done.
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One more thing, if I do overstate the negative points about Australia and the Australian character it is only in an attempt to redress the balance which is fundamentally tilted in favour of a ridiculously over-generous, positive and optimistic appraisal. If people were not so inclined to talk absolute rot about how wonderful Australia is then I might not feel so inclined to bring people back down to earth.
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campantman, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I completely accept it. In fact, I concur to some degree - Australia is not the land of milk and honey and life is far from perfect there, it sadly lags behind the UK in many aspects. I live in London, it's provided me with wonderful opportunities (for which I'm grateful) and the lifestyle here is like nothing I could dream of finding in Australia. In fact, I have no plans to return, but never say never.
I was merely commenting on the fact that you seem determined to stick the knife in repeatedly, at every opportunity, and your choice of words with liberal use of sweeping generalisations take your posts beyond balanced observations and suggest instead you're on some personal, bitter crusade against the country, hence the chip-on-shoulder remark.
However I really don't wish to hijack this thread so I will refrain from posting any further, but by all means campantman, carry on.
PS: A definition of 'whinge' is 'to complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner'.
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To 31. dungutti
I have made some points why Rebiya Kadeer is a terrorist, also I explained that Rebiya Kadeer's background and what was happened in Urumqi on 5th-7th July, I was on a tour group there, I have met many locals, evidenced the terror, felt the sadness what people suffering during the speed killing by Uyghur mobs. Again, my comment 35. was removed because the moderators found it broke the BBC House Rules, it is no surprise where BBC stands for, the moderators must be somewhat Rebiya Kadeer's sympathizers or a "sino-phobic ".
The simple thing you could find out who she is, google it, or some really good video clips have been realized by Chinese authority before she was released from prison, you will see it yourself who she is who she represents to.
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43. At 6:46pm on 21 Aug 2009, CFCHugh wrote:
tofupanda, if you were in charge of China, what are the top 5 things you would do to improve the place?
To CFCHugh
top 5 things I would like to improve the place:
1.Develop an ecological civilization, Western world is losing the opportunity to do so, China is the only hope. In an ecological civilization, human beings are at the core, but not the rulers of nature, the concept of ecological harmony is rooted in traditional Chinese culture.
2. Minority group in China should be the same as Han Chinese. Everyone should be one nationality is CHinese Citizen. Get rid off the special dispensation wide-ranging preferential policies in place to promote social and economic developments for ethnic minorities, including preferential employments, political appointments, and business loans. etc. Review the latest ethnic policy form late 80's, it was one of the huge mistake form former paramount leader of China Deng xiaoPeng.
3.The notion of human rights should include economic standards of living and measures of health and economic prosperity, I think it is very basic. A number of organizations work to create awareness and campaign for change with regard to human rights in China should stop meddling. They do not represent majority Chinese citizen. I would stand firmly on this.
4. Public relations, I would Chinese authority to invest public relations. Especially hire each larger PR firm in each country to represent a positive image of Chinese authority, Chinese culture and development.
5.Clean up corrupt officials or members of the judicial system and larger criminal gangs every city very provinces.
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sjw3000 in #51. Thank you for your gracious acknowledgement that I might have a point. Not required, as I know I do, but appreciated nonetheless.
Interesting that you mention being grateful for your experiences in London. The inference being that I should be grateful for my experiences in Australia? I don't recall saying that I am not grateful for the positive experiences I have had here in Australia.
As I have a degree in English, the definition of 'whinge' was not necessary, but again, thanks anyway.
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Apparently campantman is continuing his whinging as he sees it as offering assistance to Australia's development. I can see his bloated body in Londons Winchester Club with a cigar in one hand and brandy in the other. He then deigns to give those damn colonials a spot of advice on how they can become more like him. His arrogance appears limitless and it wouldn't surprise if he expected an Order of Australia for his troubles. When saying this I am making the extremely dubious assumption that he has taken out Australain citizenship.
For anyone out there who doesn't know the definition of "pom" I would refer them to the postings of campantman. It's short for pompous.
My objections to postings from campantman and paulcrossley should not be misconstrued as my desire to stop them expressing their opinions. As far as I'm concerned they can keep dribbling until the cows come home. I just wish they'd stop coming up with the same old monotonous rubbish.
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@sydneycynic, what nonsense!
Not only is your post full of absolute, unverified suppositions and fabrications, you make the mistaken, almost 20th century assumption that British people still regard you as some colony of poorly educated convicts that we Brits can somehow sponge off of.
You, and your opinions, are like some bland historical montage to the times when Australians truly were exploited by British colonialists, and that 'campantman's 21st century migration (something pursued by Brits as much as Aussies, remember), is some cultural repeat of past British colonialism and exploitation. The fact is, like many Australians, he emigrated for economic reasons first. People just like travelling for work - I know I do.
We view you as equals, economically and socially. We recognise that we have cultural similarities, and cultural differences, and fortunately a common language to express these to one another. If you ask any modern Brit to summarise Australia, they would probably mention something along the lines of barbies, beer, sport, daytime soaps, since this is what they associate with the country through immediate, unconscious visual thought. Cultural inferiority, poor standards of education, a rotten sense of ownership of your lands and your people, are things the current generations in Britain would generally never associate with Australia, no matter how much you want them to.
All campantman was suggesting, is that no country, not the UK, nor Australia, nor China, should be viewed uncritically. Criticism can always be challenged, but every country has its problems, and these should be addressed sincerely and delicately, otherwise we blinker ourselves from the reality around us. I doubt he spends his entire time in Australia moaning and whingeing about the state of affairs. I am sure he loves Australia, and manages to identify the problems in Australia without it affecting the enjoyment of his experience down under.
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@synthil in #56 - thank you!
Amazing how some people are able to talk such sense whilst others willfully interpret what one says in a certain (entirely negative) light in order to provide them with a framework for unleashing an attaching retort far more ferociously than one has written oneself in the first place.
@sydneycynic #55. I didn't ever say that anyone tried to actually *stop* people from criticising Australia, as such. I actually suggested that people never take kindly to it. And you have successfully demonstrated how right I was; and for that, I thank you, sir. Interesting that you see fit to stoop to the kind of farcical insults that I myself have never once uttered ("I can see his bloated body in Londons Winchester Club with a cigar in one hand and brandy in the other") yet you clearly perceive that you have the moral high-ground here, which is rather bizarre and in fact implies a certain arrogant pomposity (to use your own favourite terms) on your part.
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Synthil, I think you said everything in a far more eloquent, un-emotionial way than I could at #56. The only thing I would add is that just as pomposity exists, so too does inverted pomposity.
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Thank you for this blog. It's the only operating blog on the BBC news website at the moment. But the REASON I TRUST CHINA WITH MY CHILDREN'S FUTURE IS THIS:
Someone said China would deal with the devil for money..well that is America's attitude toward life.
Pragmatism is best in any situation. Think real and be grounded in your thinking before judging. Honestly its difficult to articulate pragmatism's definition.
But, ultimately, China seems to think with its "feet on the ground."
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Maybe synthil can advise me exactly why I should not have take offence to the opinions particularly put forward by campantman. Also you might care to explain why he doesn't actually maintain a ongoing imperialist attitude towards Australia. He's stated that Australia has a high opinion of itself and he has taken it upon himself to adopt a negative approach and thus maintain a sense of eqilibrium. It appears as though campantman has decreed that Australians should not be permitted the right to have a collective high level of self esteem.
Seeing you have taken it upon yourself to act as some kind of spokesman you may also care to explain how you decided that your two other cronies have a love of Australia. In the past all I have seen is generalised whinging. campantman has even suggested that this be made a specific topic on this blog. The closest positive thing campantman can bring himself to say is that Australia isn't wonderful and at best it is the equal to the UK. Hardly a ringing endorsement but maybe you can fill me in on the basis of his love of Australia because you rely on facts and I apparently don't.
You might also care to explain why it is right when it is alleged that Australian's "never" accept criticism. I for one agree that the aboriginal problem is a very bad reflection on other Australians. I also believe our foreign policy of going to other peoples wars is wrong. European graveyards are full of Australians fighting ungrateful allies wars and unfortunately we have recently tended to keep on making those mistakes.
Seeing you think I'm guilty of embellishment maybe you can explain whether you believe your mates' assertions that Australians never accept criticism. Regardless of the questionable intellect of your two mates, I would have thought that the law of averages meant they might have, at some stage, said something which elicited a positive response. Even if the 100% negative response is true, which I don't believe it is, do you think it possible that it is due to the obnoxious way the criticism is presented. You also made reference to Australia's cultural inferiority. Seeing I grew up having to watch UK shows such as Till Death Us Do Part, Love Thy Neighbour, Are You being Served and It Ain't Half Hot Mum I assume you're not referring to Australia being inferior to the English. I note one of your most recent cultural exports is Gordon Ramsey. You may also care to explain why Australia's education system is inferior. Campantman, it appears quite erroneously, says he's got an English degree. This is someone who doesn't even know that in England and Australia you spell "defence" with a "c" and not an "s", as they do in the US. Maybe he got his degree from the University of Alabama and not the University of Old Kent Road. I'm only a miner educated up to 16 and our schools taught me more than your English mates. As stated previously, I doubt whether he has a degree at all. People like campantman like to big note themselves because they'll never have to substantiate their claims. When Australians run into these type of know alls they often describe them thus, "not only does he know who the Unknown Soldier is, he knows who shot him".
The vast majority of people coming to Australia are an enormous plus to the nation. I happen to think they often make better Australians than others born here. They actually appreciate that their "bums have landed in the butter". Your two mates might feel the same but they've been highly effective in keeping it to themselves. The same can't be said with regards to the monotonous regularity in which they appear to take great pleasure in taking a dump on the country in which they live.
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@sydneycynic, this is a blog about Australia. The finer points of your nation. Criticism is going to rear its ugly head sometimes. Accept it, or move on. He may have been overly critical, but I am sure, like so many things in life, that there was a good and concrete reason for it. I doubt he comes here to pick a bone with your country; rather to offer honest, critical points relevant to the article.
It might be difficult for you to accept the fact that campantman has not thrown in the occasional, obligatory proclamation of praise once in a while towards Australia in this thread - perhaps he didn't feel it necessary to reassure his readers, such as yourself, that Australia is actually a bloody lovely country.
There is a significant difference between a held high-esteem, and refusing to accept that your nation, as flawed as any other, should ever receive criticism more than once within a given thread. I can't say I know your country, or your people, with any degree of complacency, but it seems to be so that many regular commenters in this blog get overly sensitive whenever Australia is condemned, rightly or otherwise. Perhaps this is just patriotism, perhaps it is a true part of the Australian character, I don't know. But this degree of sensitivity is something you'd never experience from a British person. More so than any other culture that I have experienced, the Brits take a pounding, and pound themselves, without protest. And this is not necessarily good, and not necessarily bad. It is just so, and perhaps it is this mentality that allows them to be occasionally more critical of other nations. But it is most certainly not the manifestation of lingering complacency left over from the glory days of the British Empire. That pride is dead and gone.
I think you're guilty of embellishment? You fabricated campantman's life story, mate. You suggested he was some sort of high-flying Londoner who likes to exploit hard-working Australians while taking their credit from them. Is this, like his supposed contempt for your country, another thing that you somehow know without any substantiative facts? The 'Unknown Soldier' indeed.
And as for what I said about supposed cultural inferiority or poorer standards of education, I mentioned them as the stereotypes of your nation, that you may have reckoned people like campantman hold. I do not think your nation is inferior in those ways, and neither do I reckon that most British people think so, either - hence the use of the word 'never'.
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Sydneycynic.
We three really aren't all buddies, I thought you'd picked up on the irony, but maybe not (I've only just realised I've been spelling Campantman's name wrong!). We seem to be from the same country, and have identified a similar theme in Australia/Australians. I doubt we agree on much else, such is the variety of the individual's opinions.
A variety of opinion that includes praise, criticism and pure observation when it comes to your country. I believe this is reflected in my previous posts. If you prefer we can have a blog on "why Australia's great" or "which things in Australia are better than in the UK?". The only problems are that we hear this stuff all the time anyway, and it gets a little boring.
Finally, you might want to re-examine your statement:
"the closest positive thing campantman can bring himself to say is that Australia isn't wonderful and at best it is the equal to the UK. Hardly a ringing endorsement".
From what I've read, Campatman is very fond of the UK, so this IS a ringing endorsement. Is that chip on your shoulder so large it is obstructing your viewpoint or are you just keen to have a dig at the UK?
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Mr Simon Crean Australia's Trade Minister can comfort himself by representing comments on China's elite's despicable behaviour in relation to the four Rio Tinto executives, including Australian Stern Hu and China's elite's other negative economic and social behaviour towards not only China's own people but those outside as a 'fear of China' rather than a rationally derived "knowledge of China" to excuse continuing Trade talks whilst Stern Hu and others are subject to a Justice system, politically imbued to such an extent we have a well founded fear to save face Stern Hu will be necessarily found guilty despite evidence to the contrary.
Clearly the Chinese security apparatus responsible for investigating the Stern Hu case release of the substantial savings of billions of dollars China could have made if China previously had inside knowledge of Rio Tinto's negotiation strategy underlines the real motive of the Chinese elite.
Continuing Trade talks are not in Australia's interests nor the rest of the worlds Nations where any business can be subject to such arbitrary Chinese action to obtain a better business deal for themselves. Until China sends a clear signal it is moving away from China's current abuse of the free market system Nations should excuse themselves from Trade negotiations which do not address negative aspects of Chinese policy first.
Pure and simple the dichotomy between business relationship ethics and other social ethics is the reason humanity have economic crises (current one included) and wars. If we can dehumanise in one sphere of relationships this cannot and is not contained. The fact philosophy of feeding being more important than human concern for others is the foundation stone of our societies is the cause of our debilitating disease of excess against our environment and fellow humans. If it was the reverse we would all have a lot more to feed on with much more equanimity.
The Chinese people themselves are not the subject of these negative comments on China but China's hypocritical elite.
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I think Campantman in #38 has made accurate observations but failed to understand what they mean. The Australian and English modes of criticism are completely different. I believe that Australians tend to take criticism - of anything, not just Australia - seriously and often personally. The English, on the other hand, often seem to complain as small talk. I remember going on a camping trip with an English family and being astonished and embarrassed at the way they constantly complained about the cold. After several days I realised they were just making conversation and actually weren't blaming anyone or even particularly bothered. Australians do something like this too, but criticism that is not intended to be acted on is almost always made in an obviously humorous way. Because Australians and English people are otherwise so culturally similar, I think this different attitude to complaint and criticism is seldom understood.
In terms of post #38: when Australians hear a Briton criticise Britain, they mistakenly deduce that he really dislikes Britain or at least aspects of Britain. When he goes on to criticise Australia, they deduce that he also dislikes Australia. The same Australians will make the same sort of comment, about Britain or aspects of Australia, but using 'humour' to defuse it.
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@SeansName, you are right. And it is perhaps a cultural evolution that few British, or even Australians, would ever admit. We recognise each other as different, but we want to cling onto some hope that we are, to the most important of extents, the same. And it is not due to any sense of ownership, on the part of the British, nor is it due to some sense of dependance, on the part of the Australians. The simple fact is, our countries are very close, closer than we are to the US.
Complaining, or 'whingeing' as it is known in Australia, is just a conversational tool, small talk, that many British employ. It comes absolutely unconsciously. Very little feeling goes into it. An Australian tends not to complain so suddenly, as, in most daily circumstances, it is unnecessary.
To complain, to whinge, is to express dissatisfaction, not just a criticism. And to say one is dissatisfied, with anything, is one of the most powerful condemnations. Perhaps the British just don't take this seriously anymore.
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#65
'our countries are very close'
With respect, synthil, I can't say the same. There may be other Australians on here disagree with this but I'm offering a personal view. I think also that this might have something to do with the character of nations derived from imperialism - much of which was is in the Asia Pacific. A lot of Australia's neighbourhood, and interaction, is with ex colonies of European empires, and we generally rub along very well, including give and take criticism. They're the countries we're close to and from where we derive a lot of migrants. We're also well thought of in the US - another ex colony
I think British migrants here annoy everyone, not just 'old Australians' but these other migrants even more so
There's a sense that Britain is rather isolated in Europe amongst the ex European colonisers, the EU is run by a French/German hegemony and Britain looks abroad for a bit of familiar company. The Americans haven't much time for you, so we're next cab on the rank
Sorry if this sounds a bit blunt. Congratulations on the Ashes btw
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think that, after that quite verbose post, I can summarise my views as follows:
If an Australian wishes to make a joke about or criticise Britain/the British, for example the weather in the UK or smaller houses or 'stuck-up poms', the Brit is expected to take that with good humour.
If, however, a Brit attempts to make a joke about or 'whinge' (because it's always a 'whinge', never ever legitimate complaint) about Australia/Australians, you will not find the Australians responding with quite the same good humour that they expected from the British when it was the other way around. Their smile will quickly drop and a distinct huffiness will be detectable. As modelled by our friend, sydneycynic.
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#20 "Canberra chose to side with a terrorist"
The only 'proof' of Mrs Kadeer being a "terrorist" comes from China itself. A little self serving where any analysis of the independent media content on the recent disturbances show it was the Han Chinese who instigated the start to the violence based on proven false despicable accusations, admitted to by Chinese officials at the time. Please tell me how Mrs Kadee was responsible for this incitement?
China has the opportunity to resolve these differences of opinion on Mrs Kadee's status as a "terrorist" by having the United Nations investigate China's accusations against Mrs Kadeer but the Chinese elite continues to refuse to do so.
Australia is very open to have the UN investigate issues in Australia which relate to Australia's treatment of fellow citizens, as are other countries, why is it the Chinese elite are so reticent, has the Chinese elite something to hide from its own citizens? I think it does and apparently so do many others.
Though to say so is seen by the Chinese elite as interfering in China's affairs were as for China to contact the Australian Press club and inform them China would look favourably on the Australian press Club refusing Mrs Kadeer's right to voice an opinion of oppression in China is just a friendly chat.
But I suppose you should not believe everything you read as fact.
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Can sydneycynic really not see that he is behaving so precisely as I have described?
Where does this bizarre expectation come from that Australia must be praised to the hilt at all times and never criticised? How many times does the fragile Australian ego need to hear it said that the beaches are beautiful, the opportunities are many and the people the most friendly you could hope to meet?
If a Brit (of all people) dares to not repeat this mantra, or even goes so far as to actually criticise the place, he/she must be an ungrateful, imperialistic, arrogant and pompous swine who does not respect the glorious nation of Australia. Why draw that conclusion? Insecurity? Hypersensitivity? So you Aussies can complain about the lack of good beaches in the UK or the tendency towards cloudy weather over there yet we Brits must never stray from the script that you have prepared for us when we are discussing Australia?
Get real.
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Campantam should realize that just repeating the same old stuff time and time again won't make him right. Just saying all Australians can't handle criticism doesn't make it true. Personally speaking I think the New South Wales Government is a joke and I would agree with anyone who said likewise. If they went further and said we should swap our parliamentarians for the ones in Iraq or Afghanistan I would agree and have a laugh with them. Also, if somebody came up to me and said the London Underground is ten times better than the Sydney rail system I would also agree.
According to Campantman I would be incapable of accepting the above criticism if it came from someone with a UK accent. Also, he thinks he would be incapable of finding any Australian to agree with any criticism. I find it quite offensive that he believes all Australians can be so superficial and prejudiced. According to him our objectivity is dictated by the accent emanating from the person making the comment/criticism.
Keep living the myth campantman. You seem quite happy living in your own little bizarro world.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Wollemi, your assertion that our countries are not close would have a greater ring of truth about it if you didn't spend so much time blogging about the subject on the BBC.
As for we British migrants annoying you, well I'm sorry that we've all been a bit noisy lately, or did we all get in your way at Coles or something?
Isn't that the kind of crass over-generalisation that you campaign against? Wouldn't that sound a little bit xenophobic if it wasn't the Brits you were talking about? Weren't we encouraged to come here by your own Government, presumably because we bring benefit to your economy?
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Have no idea why my remarks in #67 have ''been referred to the moderators''. Did I use too many long words?
This is what amazes me. Someone like wollemi makes a statement like this:
''I think British migrants here annoy everyone...''
and then, absolutely astonishingly, believes that they have some kind of moral high-ground in the debate. As paulcrossleyiii in #73 has pointed out, this would be not only xenophobic but downright rascist were wollemi talking about any other group of people. But, of course, it's always okay to attack those annoying pommy b*******, isn't it?
Equally astonishing is the way Australians like wollemi forget that the ancestry (recent ancestry at that) of a huge percentage of Australians is British. Who do you think you are exactly? You think God suddenly decided to 'create' modern Australia out of nothing a couple of hundred years ago? You forget, very conveniently, that Australia is only the Australia that you currently love and defend so passionately because of British migration to these shores.
Let's say we grant you your wish that all the 'annoying' Brits b***** off back to the UK and we include in that anyone who has four British grandparents. That's a lot of Australians you're saying au revoir to. Then we'll see how thriving your economy is, or how good at sport you are.
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#73, #74
Ok,apologies to you both... 'some' British migrants annoy 'some' people
Can we now get back to the topic of China, Australia's most important diplomatic relationship, most important trading partner and a country in the midst of a massive defence buildup
In a perverse kind of way I think this recent spate of events is because Australia has become more significant to China, they're trying to take it beyond the trade relationship, but on their terms
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Thank you Wollemi!
It is indeed an interesting situation, but as you point out most of that build-up is (so far) defensive, is it not? Australia seems to be thinking ahead and planning for it's own defence, no longer certain the USA is going to rule the region in 20 years time. Whatever gives Australia the right to determine it's own trade terms with China seems to me to be a good thing.
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campantman, wollemi, paulcrossleyiii, synthil please note your discussion appears to be somewhat superfluous for whatever your creed or country if you are cognisant human you are automatically a hypocrite for its is my opinion no one person or country can or ever has traversed life without being one.
The generalisations regards human beings whatever their country is meaningless for as individuals we all have a differing mode of communication the point is to concentrate on the idea being put forward not the source nor the tone of delivery.
The current politic is to destroy a person’s reputation if they turn on the system revealing its inner workings this has worked in the past despite the veracity of the content. The tone of delivery involved in doing this can be jarring but that does not take away from the import of the message unless we like to become entangled in semantics.
Every country as every person has something they are not proud of we all know this already. These comments on the web are going to have a greater and greater influence on what is seen as acceptable human behaviour in human affairs.
Policy both private and public will be framed by it do not lose sight of the issue at hand.
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#77 MJS: Quite.
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Wowwwww. You mean that America is not the most hated country here....hmm, I'll have to come here more...for
a refreshing change of pace...I like Australia alot, but for their nature AND their people. Also, they are human and not perfect...just like we Americans.
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Greg Rudd reinterpreted (25 August 2009)
"Good will offers a rich yield"
-Being jolly nice to the Chinese elite in power despite what they do to their own citizens or others gives access to lucrative business deals.
"each needs to understand the other"
- excuse nasty habits as a cultural quirk.
- understand and accept the Chinese elite in power and ignore how they utilise it against others as a cultural quirk.
"Humour has a better chance of saving the planet"
- lets ignore reality so we can sign the next business deal.
- saves inconvenient truth being resolved for a better chance of saving our planet.
"Australian style of Democracy transferred to China today.. 120 different political parties ..would cause a Chinese civil war"
- the Chinese citizens are intelligent enough but not enough to determine their own destiny without autocratic guidance.
- supporting the existing Chinese elite with this outrageous groundless proposition has its financial benefits.
- who cares if such a statement endorses the incarceration of those Chinese citizens seeking independent thought and determination of their own future.
- How many Chinese citizens are going to suffer or continue to suffer because of this statement and who made it?
"Free press is a two edged sword"
- Do not worry about what is being written by the Australian press as it is only said to sell newspapers - Good news does not sell.
- The press does not represent the true feelings of the Australian citizen.
- Do not worry yourselves (Chinese elite) if you take it as seriously as it is meant the business deal will not be signed.
- Its just a joke ha, ha,...
Chinese society "Compared to our (Australias) 221 years of post indigenous civilisation"
- Australians should defer to a societal framework because it can trace its origins back more than a thousand years.
- Ignore the fact current societal frameworks utilising the basis of the time they have been in existence as a basis for claiming the societal framework requires to be respected are the most brutal and lacking in human rights the world has ever seen.
- Ignore the fact the Australian culture did not simply appear overnight 221 years ago but is based as the Chinese current societal system on a series of historical events stretching as far back as the Chinese framework.
How comforting it is for those who have the option of walking away from reality. It has been observed by some who have been subject to oppression yearning for the intervention on their behalf from the 'Free' West that its citizens do not value highly enough what they have.
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Yes #79 stellarBeloved it is one Oscar Wilde I believe was too polite to explicitly verbalise but as a Frenchman dryly observed when commenting on the attitude of the French towards the USA "If you are hated you matter". At various times this is may be of some comfort for us all if we need to believe it.
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