The Pom influence
As suspected, Daryl Melham, the Labor MP who wants to stop Britons living in Australia from being allowed to vote in federal elections, has set a rather frisky cat among the pigeons.
It has produced a really strong thread of comments, as these kind of national identity questions always seem to do.
Many have obviously remarked on the constitutional links with Britain but pazzarooney raises the question of the cultural inheritance, as well.
As anyone who lives here knows, modern Australia is a rich and vibrant amalgam of all sorts of cultures, ancient and more recent, which are expressed in all manner of ways: from the art that hangs on peoples' walls to the varied menu of food that they sit down to eat; from the sports and hobbies they participate in to the places of worship they attend on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday.
But the cultural influence of Britain remains surprisingly strong, especially given that the proportion of UK-born residents has been declining steadily over the past 25 years.
The broadcast media provides some of the most obvious examples. You can watch British programmes here from dawn until dusk and from dusk until dawn. The Bill, Spooks, Are you Being Served? and The Antiques Roadshow. On cable, there's a channel entirely devoted to British programming called UKTV (which is owned by the BBC). I have yet to meet anyone who prefers the Australian version of Top Gear broadcast on SBS to the Clarkson original, and Channel Nine's cricket coverage is presented by a Pom, the former Hampshire cricketer Mark Nicholas.
ABC, the Australian national broadcaster, is modelled on the BBC, and has a similar feel, culture and mission. At five-o'clock on the Australian east coast, you can tune into the PM programme, just as you can in Britain. It is presented by Mark Colvin, a graduate of Oxford, whose voice would not sound out of place on Radio Four in Britain.
I'm always surprised at the time devoted during ABC news bulletins to results from the English premier league, but then sport is another aspect of popular culture where the British influence remains strong.
State cricket teams compete still for a trophy purchased with a donation from the Earl of Sheffield. In rugby, the Wallabies and All Blacks fight for a cup named after the first Viscount of Bledisloe.
As the cricket writer Gideon Haigh has noted, the dominant sports here are British: cricket, the two codes of rugby, golf, tennis, boxing, horseracing, and more recently, soccer (although the southern European influence was also strong in its development on Australian soil).
One of the key figures in the development of Australian Rules Football was Tom Wills, who was educated at Rugby school. Donald Bradman used to describe tours to Britain as going home.
The media baron Frank Packer predicated once that baseball was the coming thing, but Australia stuck with cricket. Basketball, that other American invention, is struggling, and no longer has a professional presence in Sydney or Brisbane.
Just about the best thing I've read on this cultural inheritance is David Malouf's Quarterly Essay, Made in England, which focuses on the ideas and the values that were imported from Britain, and which remain cultural touchstones to this day.
In his estimation, they include the sense of fair play, the protestant work ethic, low church puritanism, drunkenism, and "British pragmatism and distrust of theory". He also talks about "British philistinism and dislike of anything showy, theatrical, arty or 'too serious'; British good sense and the British sense of humour".
Unquestionably, there's a strong cross-current of cultural influences. Some of Britain's leading public intellectuals are Aussies, like Clive James, Germaine Greer and the democracy guru Professor John Keane. So, too, are some of Britain's best-loved entertainers, like Kylie Minogue, Rolf Harris and The Wiggles. Neighbours is more popular in Britain than Eastenders will ever be in Australia.
In the aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster, Australian television executives played a central role in rethinking and repacking English football. And English cricketers have borrowed a lot from their Australian rivals, from the coloured clothing first used in Kerry Packer's World Series to their more aggressive style of play.
As we approach that ritualistic period of mutual sporting antagonism, the Ashes will not only revive our long-standing rivalry but remind us how much we have in common.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~57~RS~)
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LOL! Absolutely! One blog of yours I very much agree with. I often find things on the BBC news site for instance that reminds me of something similar in Australia.
I'm Australian but no doubt there are some personal values, interests, and beliefs that have perhaps filtered through from my English grandparents, to my parents, and onto me even if they're a bit diluted. That could also in part explain my preference for cultural exchange rather than rabid republicanism and 'Pom bashing'.
I'm also sure there are other Australians that don't fit the usual cliched image of anti-Brit sentiment.
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This is the equivalent of public hara-kiri from the BBC correspondent in Australia. Britons with sunny weather or so it goes, right?
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As a Brit currently working & living in Australia it is unquetionably true that life in here is at once easily identifyable and accessable and there are many recognisable British influences and I have never felt that I am living in a 'foreign land'.I would suggest though that those are as a result of Australia's history and are deminishing. I suggest that an American living here would find just as many echos from home as I do. As Nick acknowledges Australia is and has been the recipient of many cultural infuences but underplays the fact that it has turned them into what it wants to be which is ...... Australia. So I say "Good on ya" I'm here because I like it. Australia carry on being what ever it is you are.
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I was once chatting to a friend of mine on a bus in Sydney when an Australian teenager, telling from my accent, butted in and said "I don't like Poms, you should all go home" (Infact it was stronger than that.)
I asked him if so, why was he wearing Burberry? I got a strange glare, he ignored me, plugged in her iPod where you could hear Coldplay blaring out.
How ironic....... :)
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I've worked out that this is not a blog for Australians, rather it's a forum for the British to pretend the Empire still exists; that they rule the waves and that one Englishman is worth a thousand of any other.
Understanding this makes it easier to read the thoughts of those pale stunted inhabitants of an island the Romans thought was the end of the world.
As a "rabid" republican with British forefathers, I'll just wait for the enevitable and bite my tongue.
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Hear Hear wjburt!
You poms wish you had some control left!
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Relax Poms. Darryl Melham is a nobody politician.
This POM (me) was teacher trained in UK at UK expense and then poached by Oz after only a year on the UK job in 1975. I am now a "skip". I love it when we beat the Poms. I vote. (Voting is compulsory in Oz and we use redisstribution system not first past the post.) I am dual citizened and whilst I have had to bear the brunt of many sporting jibes, Australia embraces many diverse cultures without getting worked up about it at all . "Being a POM is only mildly diverse in Oz."
I lived in Darryl Melham's electorate (East Hills) in NSW for over 25 years. In Oz we have 3 levels of government Federal, State and Local. Darryl is a NSW STATE politician. It is Federal politics that determines who can vote via our Independent Electoral Commission During my times in the East Hills electorate Darryl, bless him, never held a ministry despite the fact that he held a sizable majority in the Labour strong seat. Ask yourself why ?
The electorate of East Hills was once heavily anglo saxon white. It even has whole suburbs or housing estate streets named after 1st World War allied triumphs but but but it is quickly becoming multicultural with arabic cultures leading the influx.
Poms are welcome in Australia and do well here, That statement is subject to temporary glitches in the 2009 Ashes series.
Ignore Darryl. Come, bring your skills and vote. POMs can vote after only 6 months residency but only by residing in the NSW electorate of East Hills can you consign Darryl to the correct used by date bin.
Aussie Ron (ex back to back Leeds terraces now living in the Oz tropics) Where would you prefer?
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wjburt - not sure what you expect from this blog. It is entitled "Nick Bryant's Australia", not "the real Australia", or "Australia from an Aussie point of view".
If this blog, written by a foreign journalist working for a foreign media organisation isn't Australian enough for you, there are plenty of home-grown blogs that could sport charming little green and gold "Australian owned and produced" stickers, if that's what you want. I don't really understand why you keep coming back to Nick's blog if all you ever do is complain. Maybe you're challenging your whinging Pom forebears? ;)
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Nick,this subject will always bring the same response from english and australians.Look at the typical response from some australians already.They dont like brits.We dont like them.My god with interstate rivalry,they dont like each other.So let them carry on with the word they love hearing themselves say loudly,POM,let them become a republic and let them carry on in there own little world.I and many more brits dont want to be associated with convicts that dont even own there own land.Funny they dont say SORRY very loudly do they
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Britontour: "I and many more brits dont want to be associated with convicts that dont even own there own land."
The convicts were British and came from the UK, so if anything us Australians should be disassociating ourselves from a country that spawned such a decrepit and broken social justice system (Australia has never been anywhere near as dysfunctional).
Speaking of dysfunctional, you might like to investigate the subtle nuances of your own written language, if you are to lecture others on cultural imperialism.
"Funny they dont say SORRY very loudly do they"
Perhaps that's something you should consider doing?
Onto Nick's comments!
Nick, you mentioned the existence of UKTV as some symbol of the cultural similarities between Australia and the UK. Yes, this cable channel does exist, but it does so alongside dozens of American tv networks broadcasting live directly to Australian TV. So I'm not sure that UKTV can be considered exceptional.
Suggesting that the similarities between the ABC radio PM program and the BBC program of the same name is indicative of the British influence in Australia doesn't quite stack up. There is Pop Idol in the UK and of course American Idol in the US - is the phenomenal success of the latter associated with the British influence in that country? I think your argument is stretching things. I'd call the PM program point you made coincidental rather than evidence of the British 'influencing' Australia.
Your references to Soccer are stretching things a bit too, I think. Soccer is the world's most popular sport, I don't think you can claim British ownership over it. The British premier league is reported on just as the leagues in other nations in Europe. I think your references to other sports (with the possible exception of Cricket) are also stretching things too - these are world sports, popular in nations with even the most fleeting relations with the UK.
Finally, I'm staggered by what you have to say about David Malouf's essay. To argue that the British have a monopoly on fair play, a strong work ethic, low church puritanism, drunkenism, as well as pragmatism and distrust of theory is one of the most spectacularly culturally arrogant things I think I've ever read. The notion that the British own these traits and 'influenced' Australia is so incredibly patronising I'm surprised you even wrote it yet alone believe it.
Also, living in the city of Sydney as we do, Nick, I'm further surprised you believe that we dislike anything showy, theatrical, arty or 'too serious'. Have you poked your head out of a window lately? Have you seen Darling Harbour? The Mardi Gras? The Gold Coast??
Australia and the UK have similarities culturally, I don't dispute that. But what I do dispute is the extent to which we are similar. I think we are vastly different countries in a myriad of ways. My own experience with Britons in Australia and Australians in Britain has confirmed this. On paper, it may seem like we have a lot more in common than we do in reality.
But to suggest that Britain has repeatedly and forcefully 'influenced' Australia is mildly offensive, and extremely patronising. Two different countries on opposite sides of the world cannot possibly be as alike as you suggest.
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This was, indeed, a refreshing post to read. I have also noticed the tendency of this blog to promote a narrowly nationalistic view of Australia's history and identity. First, I ought to establish my credentials: I'm an an Australian of British and Italian ancestry, temporarily resident in Britain since 2004. I grew up in a Labor-voting family in Sydney's southern suburbs. Yet, I am always astonished at the extent to which relations between Britain and Australia are conventionally portrayed in antagonistic terms. Such portrayals feed off a number of cliches and I agree wholeheartedly with 'Shesaidthat' that media-representatives should recognise these cliches for what they are and make a more serious effort to provide a subtler, more nuanced and more representative view of Australia and Britain's long and complex relationship. Last week's proposed voting restrictions for Commonwealth citizens resident in Australia reflect the insecurity that attends questions of national identity among many Australians. The uninformed 'Pom-bashing' occasionally demonstrated by young Australians stems from this pool of insecurity, intensified, I suspect, by inadequate exposure to history-teaching at school. But I also think it has to do with Australia's relative geographical isolation from developments elsewhere in the world. It is interesting that just as an Australian parliamentary committee investigates restricting the rights of non-Australian citizens in Australia, similar restrictions are being removed in Europe. Australia's sovereignty and identity are not so fragile that they need to be defended by punitive and resentful measures, so distant from the generosity of spirit we normally credit ourselves with. On the contrary, I would propose that that committee consider an alternative proposal: extending the franchise to all Commonwealth citizens resident in Australia, including the Indian, Malaysian and Singaporean students who contribute so much to Australia's universities. Let me finish by saying that Britain is a great country, so is Australia. Neither is perfect, but both societies have more in common culturally with each other than with almost any other on the planet. Britain and Australia's commitment to and long historical experience of parliamentary democracy, personal freedom and the rule of law may not furnish regular news stories, but they are significant achievements, the profound value of which developments elsewhere in the world confirm every day.
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I am an Aussie. Three of my four grandparents were born here and the fourth left Scotland at the age of two. I am also a Republican. But I love Britain and its people. Just this afternoon my daughter in London sent me a text that she is in the overnight queue at Wimbledon for tickets and told me her queue number and that there are five pages of instructions for queueing plus a code of conduct. I have no idea why, but I like this very much, and replied that I was obviously English at heart!
I have found it strange that, in discussions of racism and other issues, the issue of our convict heritage keeps coming up. I cannot imagine that many of us can be descended from the few hundred thousand convicts who came here, and I think convict descent is a matter of pride these days partly because of its rarity.
22% of us were born overseas and 40% have a parent born overseas; I cannot find any figures for convict descent but would be interested to know.
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Its funny the recent death of Michael Jackson brought back my memories of growing up in Australia. My dad is Canadian from "British" Columbia. My Mom is Australian from Perth. As a youth I lived in Perth and Melbourne. We returned to Vancouver in my late teens. I agree with the blogs comments as to the English influence in Australia.On a different track, I was confused as a youth by the general dislike of the US but yet love of everything American. When Michale Jackson was at his height in the 80's, my high school in Melbourne, there was a Michale Jackson dance competition, and all the boys wore shoulder padded leather jackets.I was also amused when the Australians entered the Iraq war. Yet Canada too carries the Queen on its money, yet has a much cooler relationship with the US. I also wonder why so little Canadian news is reported on this BBC web site and yet Australia still is "molly coddled" by it. Australia is a confused place, in many ways lost to the world and suffering from small island mentality.
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FAIR DINKUM. A pom taking credit for aussie rules. I think the indigenous Australians might take exception to this as they were playing a similar type of game for god knows how long.
People who think they're denigrating Australians by referring to them as "convict stock" don't have a clue. We're proud of it because anyone with half a brain should appreciate that to achieve something from nothing is much better than to have something given to you. The British seem to think they are clever if they are born with something whereas Australians think making something of yourself is much more of an achievement. So the poms can say we dragged ourselves out of a primordial swamp if they like. If they do it just makes the subsequent achievements that more commendable.
If you really want to look at what influences Australians you should look at our culinary habits. Our favourite dish is spaghetti bolognaise and it will shortly become Thai. I don't know whether it ever was but egg and chips or "spotted dick" has not been popular in Australia for a long time.
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Hello Nick
David Malouf is a marvellous author, and 'Made in England' is a fine example of his writing
However...Malouf, like Greer and Clive James, was born into 1930s Australia, the last generation of Australians under the British Empire and before the big postwar influx of European migrants and the later Asian immigration.
Then.... they left.
Malouf at least has been back and forth to live but has not fully experienced the culturally diverse Australia of the last few decades that the rest of us have experienced. So 'Made in England' is something of a period piece, it excludes those more recent influences from discussion,
Malouf also mixes up 'British' and "English'
Colonial Australia consisted of 4 main groups...English, Scots, Irish and Aboriginal. Malouf makes no attempt to identify the influences from each of those groups on colonial Australia. He really just keeps the focus on English influences
Personally I've found ex British colonies to all share some common elements. I noticed this most on a day trip from Hong Kong to Macau - it was was to pick which one had been British!
For Malouf's generation being born in the 1930s (as for Greer and James) Asia was just a place to fly over on the way to London. There was minimal knowledge of the Asian neighbourhood and Australia's links with Britain unfortunately acted as a barrier to Australia engaging with the region
I think Malouf, but more particularly Greer and James, are still locked into that mindset
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The relationship question rears its head frequently and I suspect that if Australians knew something of their British history, further back than Captain Cook and, later, Federation(which, whilst important are but a twinkling away)they would have a clearer understanding of their current culture and situation in general. A nation, changing though it is, just as Britain always has done, is but a culmination of its history. It could be debated that Australia's White only policy restricted a more worldly viewpoint.(I'll leave that for others to discuss). Another point of discussion could be whether Australians would have been better served had they had to physically fight to be self-governing, would it have served as a definite split from the Mother Country thus saving all the angst over the hundred or so years. Maybe a document or two gives a fledgling country nothing to hang its pride on.
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Any influence will naturally diminish as Britain moves towards full European integration, a decision which effectively meant turning it's back on the old colonies.
Despite short-sighted opposition, EU integration will allow the UK to be part of a world superpower to rival the US, Russia, India and China and ultimately compete for the world's dwindling resources, which will determine success over the next few hundred years. Quite how Australia will fit into this multipolar order, I do not know, although given that most of its resources now end up in China, I could have a guess. People like wjbut may then just long for the good 'ole' days when they had freedom of speech, democractic elections - and a cricket team that used to thrash the 'pale stunted inhabitants'.
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Indeed Nick.
The trouble seems to be that many histories are so complex, not formed into neat 'modules' and with few absolute certainties, it might be that some find it confusing, so lapse into dumb stereotypes and express themselves in ways that are probably more about themselves than who they are aiming at.
Well, that's a polite way of considering the examples of replies 6 and 7, crass stupidity is another.
I note the almost paranoid feelings of 'You Pom's still wish you had some control left!'
Is it so often the case that those who hate others for irrational reasons are themselves deeply ignorant of who they are attacking?
The analogy cited above of an attention seeking child also seems pertinent with that little nugget of bile.
No, we do not wish we had 'control', the UK as a major imperial power is 60+ years gone, so little living memory here.
Sorry to the seemingly fragile ego behind this statement , why not perhaps address your own issues instead?
It's all so King Canute too, we live in an increasingly globalised world after all, with modern communications and totally routine international travel.
So pitching yourself against another country, who you have never been at war with, which for all your historical denials and distortions, has closer links still with Australia than other nations, for the forseeable future too, when the bigger picture is of influences gaining, with others waning, worldwide.
Certainly true of the UK.
15 years ago, British Airways and Qantas sought a close relationship, with ticketing, marketing etc, part of which would have BA taking a minority stake in Qantas.
Remember some of the placards at Qantas's main base? 'Piss Off Poms'.
On how grown up!
Today? BA and Qantas are part of a larger alliance, the two of them do cooperate on certain routes and other areas, pretty much all of what the dumb placard holders thought they were against, has happened.
And it's not a one way street either.
A small example of the utter futility of going through life with a chip on a (thin skinned) shoulder.
Rather like the airline workers I noted above being closed minded about immigration and 'foreign influence', a bit like being a vegan working at a slaughterhouse.
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Sonic Boomer it was a joke, Not meant to be taken seriously at all. Maybe because i have no English blood in me and my ancestors came here from Ireland in the 1850s because of starvation and genocide from the English proves that i like to make fun of them.
Anyway it doesn't matter the UK could have full control over Australia and it would not bother me as long as i could do what i am doing currently and have fun!
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One aspect of the UK/Australian relationship which shows how the ties between the two nations are actual much closer than what we think is how written, standard British and Australian English are almost identical. And one step further from that, having been an Aussie who has lived in the UK for a consider amount of time, I still find it amazing how the latest UK slang eventually usually ends up becoming Australian slang too, albeit with a 1 year lag. For instance, 'pear-shaped' was a slang term that so many people were using in the UK in 2001 but hardly anyone knew what that meant in Australia at the time. A year later and Aussies were on about things 'going pear-shaped' all the time. Surely this can't be just from watching TV programmes or else us Aussies would have been Americanised (note: spelling) by now.
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I think the reason of British slang catching on in Australia is the similar R and O sounds, American slang is hard to catch on here because they pronounce it differently and it would sound weird in our accents, same if Americans say mate, they sound stupid.
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First of all NOT ALL of the First Fleet were convicts - one of my ancestors was the surgeon on the boat. Next I am not ashamed if any of my other ancestors were convicts, just look at how we have built up a strong nation in a short time, plus no civil wars, a law that is passable and freedom of speech, so no if I also come from the convict stock, great. The "diggers" are praised for their efforts in war times, and fance only a generation or two off being a convict. Yes, I am seventh generation Australian and can show a long line of tradition. So please those who say this and that, fine have an opinion - its a right to do so, but dont forget us who have our blood in the ground that built up Australia. Some of the comments here are a disgrace to those like me!
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P.S. Its Aust or Aussie - Not Oz we dont have Dorothy, Tin Man or the Good Fairy running around (well maybe in March). No matter what, where or when, if you discuss Australia atleast name us properly.
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O.K. -Firstly check out who is in charge of BA - CEO or ? I think you might find him to be an Aussie - who has most stakes in which - many may just be surprized. Secondly - Some people who first landed did purchase land, Britonontour - are you educated?. As Eliza put it, not all were convicts. And there were some already here before the first fleet - arh der........And arent parts Great Britain still crown land. I need ot say sorry or anything, I am grateful for those poor soul who sailed over here and got away from the rot of the mother land, to which at times I read here.
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People
The reason why more people watch UK TV or other British programs or even American is primarily because of a, Australian dramas is just terrible and b, why would any one watch Australian news, it is always biased and a very "small country" view.
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There is so much on here about how Australia is "so different" from the UK. Ok then, if you had to divise a list of the 10 countries Australia is most alike, I can bet that the UK would be on that list. The US, UK, NZ all share similar values to Australia. Yes, we haver different viewpoints and make ups, but the point is that they are very alike.
I'm an Aussie country boy and I've spent 4 years in the UK. It surprises me when I find substantial differences between the UK and the US. Australian slang catches on here too, it is not just a one way street.
I was in Morocco on the weekend and had locals quoting Summer Hights High to me...!
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#17
...'whether Australians would have been better served had they had to physically fight to be self governing...'
Malouf theorises in the essay on why that did not occur
Essentially he says that the Elizabethan and Jacobean eras in Britain were marred by civil violence and this was reflected in violent expressions in spoken English at that time. The Scottish and English Enlightenments brought negotiation and compromise to the fore as means of settling conflict and English therefore had to be 'disarmed'.
'Moderate language was to produce moderation' (page 52)
Colonial Australia was a product of the Scottish and English Enlightenments and it was this late Enlightenment English which was brought to Australia
In a sense, I think he is saying that early Australia was 'programmed' by these changes brought about by the Enlightenment, and despite the arrival of numerous dissenters.. Scottish Martyrs, Chartists, Swing Rioters, Tolpuddle etc, there was no drift to extremism
Malouf then talks of the idealism and more impassioned public rhetoric of the US as derived from the earlier Elizabethan/Jacobean era in Britain
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Wollemi I don't think the Scottish had much of an influence on Australia at all, i think New Zealand was more affected by Scotland, proving first with their vowel sounds.
Anyway guys here is a very good site that points out how Australia is culturally different from all the countries important to them.
http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/england.html
Take the time reading it by starting with England of course since this is what this blog is about.
Its a great read and gives you incredible insight into the culture in both countries.
Somebody please tell me if they read it and what they thought of it.
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Oznozz that link is funny, particuarly the end part with the comparison to Americans and Canadians. To be honest the only major difference I notice between Australians and the British is that australians are generally friendlier and are much more overtly patriotic, but other than that, there isn't much difference really, in my opinion.
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True, it does mostly focus on little things other than the big picture, so i agree.
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I think a lot of people are essentially taking Australia-British banter a bit too seriously and moulding it into Government policy. Of course British people occasionally throw the convict tag at Aussies and Aussies then throw the whinging pom tag back at Brits but its just the manifestation of an essentially friendly rivalry between two nations and peoples which are fundamentally similar. When Government policy is drawn up on the basis of a darker and more sinister view to this banter and joshing then it is absolutely ridiculous. The UK and US are often said to be two countries separated by the same language. Australia and the UK are two countries separated by a common culture.
P.S For those who say Australia has been consistently moving away from Britain since 1941 and abandoned Britain as its main strategic partner from 1951 (ANZUS) onwards is wholly wrong and really does not understand any Australian (and wider Commonwealth) foreign policy in the Far East for the middle of the last century.
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#32
Well I'll bite!
What do you regard as the 'middle of last century', Old Hermit, would it include 1963? That's when Australia first committed to the Vietnam War. Or 1967 with Wilson's announcement of the UK's East of Suez strategic geopolitics?
Vietnam was really the test of the relationships between the US and its allies (including the US/UK relationship). It's easy in retrospect, or even from late in the War to see it as a war fought on false grounds, but in the early/mid 1960s it was perceived that the whole Asia Pacific region was under threat from the spread of militarised communism. This was never the case with the localised Malayan Emergency nor Konfrontasi, which I assume is what you are referring to as the 'wider Commonwealth' foreign policy and the 1970s 5 Power Defence agreement. Or do you mean something else?
PS. The term Far East used to describe the Asia Pacific region has not been in usage here for several decades
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There are some intersting comments on here, and some stupid ones!
My perspective, as a professional Aussie who has lived in the UK for 5 years, is that despite the fact that we are different countries, the UK and Australia still have a lot in common, because of shared history and similar political and legal institutions. Our relationship is much closer than the relationship with the US will ever be, regardless if whether we become a Republic or not.
I was recently back in Sydney and was surpised by a number of things. For one, the amount of British TV on the free to air networks. That certainly was not the case when I left Australia as most of the content then was American. The amount of coverage events in the UK receive in Australia was also surprising.
London and the UK remains one of the most popular destinations for Aussies wanting an 'overseas experience'. I certainly have no regrets leaving Australia and am a better, more tolerant and well rounded person for it.
I still am amazed how naive many Australians are because they haven't travelled outside of the country. Because of that naivety it is right to claim that there is underlying current of racism in Australian society. I remember speaking to a well travelled Jamaican guy and being shocked when told that the worst place he had ever been for racial abuse was Sydney of all places! I had always thought of Sydney as quite a tolerant city. In the UK most people have travelled to Europe because of its proximity. Most Aussies don't even make it as far as Bali!
From another perspective though I think may Brits are envious of Australia because of a better quality of life and the fact that we do not have to contend with the likes of European Union membership and all the complications that brings with it.
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Australian history was essentially based on a rejection of British modes of life - Lords and dukes, servants and slavery, wars, colonialism, rotten boroughs, Trident and (of course) Maggie Thatcher.
Australian history was strongly influenced by democratic ideas of exiled Chartists and radicals who fought for universal suffrage and women's rights. The Australian parliament is more democratic than the British and this tradition fosters a more progressive set of values than the British broken system.
The so-called 'Pom' influence in Australia has mostly been to avoid the travesties of British politics and culture.
For many expatriate Poms - Australia has developed into what they would have wanted the UK to be (except for droughts).
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32-35 Amazing Posts, Well done.
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#34
Regarding the naivete of Australians who haven't travelled, DBinLondon, which group do you think this applies to..
the 24% of Australians born overseas?
the 40% of Australians with a parent born overseas?
most of the rest, with a partner/in law/cousins/ born overseas?
I'm running a mental check list of who in my family has not travelled in recent decades and it would have to be my Uncle Bruce. Bruce hasn't been out of the country in 60 years, not since he went overseas as a 19 year old in 1941, and knocked around the Atlantic for a couple of years on an oil tanker. I don't think he visited France to see the Louvre nor Greece to see the ..er ..Parthenon Marbles, more the backsides of warships he was refueling. He seems an OK bloke though, not naive
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It's really nice to come back and read a diversity of comments on the experience of living in/visiting both Australia and the UK.
Yes we have moved on from the old world of being a country of indigenous Australians plus those of British and Irish ancestry, but there is also nothing wrong with acknowledging your family background and the fact that they took the big decision to emigrate to Australia supposedly in the hope of a better life. I just really don't understand an 'all or nothing attitude'. Isn't possible to honour/respect your ancestry, acknowledge the cultural influence that the British and Irish must have obviously played in Australia, and still have an opinion on the issue of voting rights and on becoming a republic, and the maintenance of friendly relations between us and Britain? To me there is no conflict in that.
Let's face it, for a long time London has been a reasonably familar and comfortable place for many Aussie's to base themselves while they've worked there and/or as a base from which to explore other European countries.
In terms of current culture I tend to think that what Australians have become very good at is taking the parts that we enjoy most about other countries and cultures whether that be Italian or Asian cuisine, an Indian curry, American movies and music, British TV shows, an appreciation of European history and art, or whatever, and basically running with it.
There can be no doubt that the post war immigration of Italian, Greek, Dutch, and numerous other European families was absolutely great for Australia - as has been the subsequent arrival of people from numerous Asian, African, Pacific Island, and Middle Eastern countries, just to name a few. Also in many cases even the purported friendship and understanding divide between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians isn't always as great as its sometimes portrayed in the media. The bottom line reality is that many of us have a strong interest in and appreciation of other cultures and have friends and family from all walks of life and from very diverse backgrounds.
And one last thought: if our British/Irish ancestors had made a different choice as to where to emigrate we could be just as easily labelling ourselves Canadian, New Zealander, South African, or even American, or whatever, another reason why even though I am proud to be Aussie that I don't 'sweat the small stuff'.
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Wollemi,
I'd like to comment on the "facts and figures" that you use to back up your anti-all-things British pro-Republican view.
Let's look at your most recent foray:
"24% of Australians born overseas" That means 76% - a VAST majority - not born overseas. But regardless of that, how exactly does "being born overseas" disqualify anyone from being naive about the world outside of Australia?
"40% of Australians with a parent born overseas", once again that leaves a majority who do not have a parent born overseas... And once again I ask you how having a parent born overseas disqualifies anyone from naivety?
So, two "facts" that actually don't back up your arguement, either statistically (both show the majority do not qualify your position) or logically (when used as a reason/driver for sophistication).
You would make a very good politician.
And if you think that is a compliment then you should seriously think about becoming a politician.
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As a backpacker in the early 80's I was stunned by the horribly bigoted view some Australians had of English people (English that is, not Scottish or Welsh, but English). 10 years later on I was stunned by the horribly bigoted view some English people had of my American wife. Its all driven from the same perception that "they" (be it Poms or Yanks or whoever) think they are a superior being, a better person, from a superior country. Read the blogs here about English still thinking they have an empire etc etc or the way that the bigots think all the English will be just so humbled and put in their place if Australia becomes a republic etc etc. Good greif what do they teach in school - most English have no problem whatsoever with the republic issue and cannot for the life of them figure out why 'Stralians are so wound-up and uptight about it. National chips-on-shoulders - and we all have them - are silly, but they also have a very ugly side that does real damage, causes real problems. Get over it - believing "we are not as arrogant as them" is a horibly arrogant self-opinion in itself. Humanity before nationality.
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I was chatting with a British exec from BHP yesterday who had been posted to Australia for 3 years. His view on returning to the UK was that (while he loved his time in Melbourne) Australia is quite an insular place. The people he came into contact with hadn't travelled that much and the business colleagues didn't have an international approach. I must admit as an aussie workin in London, that this is also my feeling when dealing with Australian advisors in a work context.
Note that it is much easier for UK people to travel abroad and the EU forces UK businesses to take an international approach with common laws across Europe.
Having said all this, he did say that Australia on the whole was very similar to the UK and he easily adapted to the culture.
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First of all I'm a dual citizen so as a whinging convict pommy b*****d I'm only offending myself.
I love Australia but was born in the UK. I never thought about my nationality until I arrived in Australia. It was quite confronting for me to find myself constantly attacked for the cardinal sin of having and English accent.
For the record:
1) The weather in England isn't as good as Australia but that's not really the fault of the English. Perhaps building the British Empire was just easier than moving The British Isles. Contrary to popular belief I had seen the sun before arriving in Australia.
2) I was also the palest kid in England too. I just don't tan (the DNA is not my fault).
3) I'm terrible at sport but this is again my DNA and not caused by the possession of a British passport (seriously I arrived in 1986 and spent the next 20 years apologising for every Ashes tour, Olympic Games and Commonwealth Games).
4) Pronouncing castle with a long "a" doesn't mean I actually own a castle, nor am I likely to inherit a title and I've never met the Queen.
5) I didn't live in a Dickensian slum either.
6) I actually ate a wide variety of very healthy food in England. I'd never heard anyone say "Not eating that - it's rabbit food" until I got to Aus.
So it's always been hard for me to come to terms with the fact that now I'm more Aussie than English because I spent so many years on the defensive.
However some 20 years later I think Australia is a much more sophisticated country than when I first arrived but there is still some trouble defining the history of Australia in relation to it's obvious British (that means English) heritage. There has been a trend to re-write Australian history with an anglophobic bent (Manning Clark, Thomas Keneally, etc). I strongly disagree with this - Australia should not be defined as "NOT England". I agree that Australia should become a republic, remove the Union Jack from the flag and get rid of "Advance Australia Fair" because it's a mature sovereign nation (and also because "Advance Australia Fair" is an awful tune) not as an act of revenge against "mother England" .
Some fact about Australian history:
1) Most Australians considered themselves to be British Australians and proud members of the British Empire long after 1901. Australian Passports actually said "British Passport" until 1969.
2) Australians were very happy to sign up and fight for England during WWI - most of them had British accents (Simpson was a Geordie - not sure about his donkey). It was only slightly different by WWII.
3) Gallipoli was a mistake but so were several other battles in WWI that resulted in massacres. They didn't land on the right beach because they didn't have spy satellites or GPS in those days. Australians suffered heavy casualties at Gallipoli but weren't the only ones (22,000 British, 10,000 French, 9,000 Australians). You'd think it was only English generals sending Australian soldiers "over the top" to certain death (does anyone ever mention the French at Gallipoli?). Also the Turks won (so if they want to build a road at Gallipoli they can - that's what winning means).
4) The vast majority of miners on the goldfields were English. Go to any goldmining museum in Australia and the brutal thuggish troopers always have English accents and the poor oppressed miners have Irish, Cornish and Scottish accents. There were lots of nice English people who did many great things for Australia and some Irish who weren't very nice (Ned Kelly was a mass murdering terrorist - one ranting letter doesn't make him a freedom fighter). This is a running theme in Australian TV and movies (the authorities are uptight English, the Irish are larrikin Aussies).
5) Australia hung on to the apron strings of Britain - not the other way round. This includes insisting that Governor Generals must be British until the 1960s (by the Liberal Party anyway), not ratifying the statute of Westminster until 1942 (11 years after the British parliament passed it), being really annoyed when Britain joined the European Union (well, EEC) in 1973.
6) Australia had an extremely racist, xenophobic birth in 1901 even by the standards of the day. There are some horrifying quotes by Henry Parkes (the first Australian PM) and Billy Hughes' refusal to accept the racial equality proposal for the new League of Nations at Versailles were hugely embarrassing for the UK (and USA) because Japan was an ally in WWI. Australia kept a "White Australia Policy" until 1973, Aborigines didn't (start to) get proper recognition until 1967, Kanakas were slaves (if you really think "indentured labourers" means something else then you probably think "enhanced interrogation" isn't torture), Pauline Hanson had widespread support and there really were race riots in Sydney (Germaine Greer and Clive James seemed to think that Australians were incapable of racism - unlike the English - both hypocrites who derive their fame and fortune from the British).
Australia did a lot of growing up and very fast especially from the late 1960s which may have been in part because of the jet age allowing more Aussies to visit England and realize there were significant differences. Read the autobiographies of the many expats that flocked to the UK to seek their fortune in this era and you'll find that many became disillusioned when they weren't an instant hit and struggled to fit in.
The vast majority of Australians are still of English descent. However these days most of them/us feel Australian not English and that's how it should be. Australia shouldn't hide it's British past or blame the bad bits on the English and not forget Australia's future is undeniably Australian (not English, or American, or Irish, or Greek, or Italian, or Chinese, or...).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
You guys do realise that the fact that a lot of Australians haven't travelled much doesn't make them naive or ignorant.
Maybe they can't afford it? ever thought of that? Its bloody expensive to go overseas from Australia. Also the flights are very long and some people hate flights that go over an hour.
Also if an Australian goes overseas they have to plan extensively and go over for many weeks at a time to get their moneys worth. Which some people don't have time to plan with other things being more important, such as work, kids whatever.
Seriously the fact that Australians are usually more well travelled than Americans is an enormous achievement considering how expensive it is to go anywhere from this country.
Also remember it is a big country, i would rather go to Uluru and appreciate Aboriginal history at the moment, than be bothered to spend thousands of dollars to go to London.
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I think both 'sides' are taking things out of perspective here. Firstly can any Australian really deny that Britian has played a fairly significant role in the very existance of modern 'Australia'. Just look at the lanaguage for starters, it's ENGLISH! At the same time Australia is an independent, sovereign nation and with it's own identity that is evolving and changing, as does Britain's. We share some things, we are different in others. No big deal. If Australia choose to become a republic and/or change their flag that's a decision for them. It's no slur on Britain.
We have a unique rivalry which is the product of our shared past. A hell of a lot of aussies come to britain to work/settle and a hell of a lot of brits go to australia to work/settle.
Some good comments (eg. 34) and some frankly hilarous comments (eg number 24) though. You want to be called by your correct name? But it's apparently quite ok for Australians to use the nickname 'pom'. Crazy. Get a grip people.
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Just a bit of clarification Nick. According to the BBC, the PM program started in April of 1970, our PM started in 1969. Maybe the influence goes a bit both ways?
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I find this thread fascinating that such a hilariously misguided article could lead to such a heated global debate. And a good thing too! On visiting the UK the other month i took a lot of the predictable patronizing comments from british mates from the mainstay convict rubbish to subjects more accurate, well to be expected as one of the traits i respect the british for is their brilliant sense of humor and the ability to take the .... out of them selves and others. however when i hit back in fair play the room was silent ( its easy, just mention sport ) , how dare this colonialist upstart who is supposed to only make crass jokes, talk like paul hogan and wrestle dangerous animals whenever required have an opinion and a little pride too. Ok, i understand if you run the world for 100 years , it might be tough to let go of the feeling of cultural superiority and power ( even as a world power if it was taken away frighteningly quickly by those crazy Germans in 1941 ). The article above is typical of what annoys aussies so much, and its not only the mundane 'some people are simply better' theme that is always clung onto. It's almost like we are the ones left that they direct it onto now as the rest of the former empire got smart and told them to go away sooner. This comment i read above is also worth mentioning- 'Australia is a confused place, in many ways lost to the world and suffering from small island mentality' I agree, however after living in europe for 7 years i realize that this is what i love about home so much. We are confused, we have it so good ( half of europe seems to want to move there , they dont seem to worry about 'convicts' or the boogey man ) and we dont seem to realize it. Republican? as sure as the beer will still be cold , with respect the time has come, we've been standing on our 2 feet anyway for decades without realizing it. Oh and who is Rolf Harris anyway? someone fill me in - is he meant to be our greatest celebrity export?
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PS .. toffa98 great comment!
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I don't understand the bad feeling some people seem to have. I'm a Brit, and I'm happy with that. The Aussies I've met have (generally speaking) been a really friendly bunch who I've got on well with very quickly. I've definitely felt there was common ground, and I've wanted to visit Australia for years to experience it for myself.
However, we are two seperate countries, with seperate traditions, each influencing the other to a greater or lesser extent - and this is a good thing, surely? The similarities make it easier to understand each other, and the differences make things interesting.
If Australia wants to be a republic then I don't think there are many Brits who would disagree that it's your choice to make (well, none that I know at least!) and let's be honest, neither country really needs the ceremonial link.
I don't understand the attitude of some Brits who rant on about convicts, and colonial days (that type of idiot is in a minority though, thankfully) or Aussies who hate "bloody Poms". We're all people.
And SimonGrey @ #47 - Rolf Harris is a very odd man who appears to have been grown under laboratory conditions and now works exclusively in panto. Judging by his woolly coat, he may be the result of an attempt to engineer a new, hardier breed of sheep :)
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To add to your list of dominant sports - Aussie Rules - AFL - is by far the biggest sport in Melbourne and it's popularity is growing nationwide too. The regular season games at the MCG regularly attract over 70,000 fans making it the best supported game in the country.
Rugby League is very popular in Sydney/NSW but Rugby Union is dying out and the only kids playing it are public school kids. I'm confidently predicitng a Wallabies performance crisis in 10 years time.
The Premier League is much more popular than the A-League. The national side attracts a lot of interest due to their 2006 World Cup performance.
I think probably the most popular sport in terms of participants is fishing (if you call it a sport!).
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