Poland and Ukraine wait on Uefa report
Not very good at all, far too much still to be done, there must be tighter checks on progress... but nevertheless you can still hold Euro 2012.
That is the message that is likely to emerge from the Uefa executive committee on Friday as it considers whether Poland and Ukraine will be ready in four years' time.
The corridors of Regent Hotel in Bordeaux, where its members are meeting, may be buzzing with all sorts of talk and rumour but nobody expects the executive to just pull the plug on the first joint east-European hosting of this tournament
The executive is considering a 40-page report written by several experts on various aspects such as stadia, infrastructure etc.
Poland and Ukraine are already aware of the report, having been presented with it when they came to a meeting at Uefa headquarters in Nyon.
The report is understood to be very critical of the preparations and details the deadlines that have been missed.
But despite this, and the fact that the Poles have publicly admitted they are more likely to be ready for 2016 rather than 2012, there is I am told no appetite on the executive to say "that's it" and move the tournament to Spain, which had been the talk in Vienna at the end of Euro 2008.
Although Michel Platini in some interviews has been quoted as saying this may happen I am told his words have been mis-translated and in the original French he is not quite as sceptical as he sounds in English.
The executive is likely to insist on tighter deadlines and greater monitoring of progress over the next four years.
But the overall message is likely to be that although Portugal in 2004 and Switzerland-Austria in 2008 had problems they delivered on time.
Interestingly, of the two countries it is Poland that Uefa's experts seem more impressed with.
The Poles seem to have a more western-style of management, staffed by young people who know how such tournaments are organised.
Ukraine is rather longer on promises, which some Uefa experts feel is utopian. The president promised Uefa 5bn Euros in constructing more than 4,500km of roads, all of this in four years when countries such as France and England took several decades to build their motorways.
Also the political stability in Ukraine causes great concern and its relationship with Russia is another great imponderable.
But with a Ukrainian on the Uefa executive - although he will leave the room when the report is discussed - there is little chance of his fellow executive members saying no to Ukraine.
In any case, Uefa would struggle to decouple Poland and Ukraine given that this is a joint bid and there is faith Poland can deliver.
Also, as expected, Euro 2016 will be expanded to 24 teams despite the fact that the bigger countries such as England, Italy and Germany have doubts about how they will attract crowds to additional fixtures which may be meaningless, or even get much more television revenue for them.
But this is what the great majority of Uefa's member countries want and for all the success of the 16-team format, come 2016 it will be 24.
I'm 
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I'm not really certain there's any point or merit in speculating on what this report may or may not say when there is less than 24 hours until it is published? Why not just dissect it then?
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Are there concerns about hooliganism in Poland?
The problem of hooliganism in Poland has been compared to what are described as the dark days of football hooliganism in England in the 1980s. Some Polish hooligans are accused of encouraging nationalism and racism among fans. Is this going to be included in the report?
If it is why is there no mention of it in this article and if it isn't included in the report why not?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Are there concerns about hooliganism in Poland?
The problem of hooliganism in Poland has been compared to what are described as the dark days of football hooliganism in England in the 1980s. Some Polish hooligans are accused of encouraging nationalism and racism among fans. Is this going to be included in the report?
If it is why is there no mention of it in this article and if it isn't included in the report why not?
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Well what a surprise, Mihir Bose, doing yet another anti-Polish/Ukraine 2012 "report"
You really don't want it do happen do you?
Could we not get BBC's Poland correspondent Adam Wyatt, who has lived in Poland for several years and writes with no bias to comment on this report, WHEN it's published.
I've been living in Poland six years and visited Ukraine a few times. Both countries will be on time and offer a great tournament!
The roads are not so crucial as most fans will fly, airports, stadiums, city public infrastucture and hotels are priority and in these sectors, they are either completed or well underway.
As for the hooligan element, its a minor problem, and will be kept well away by 2012.
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Isn't that the equivalent of your manager giving you a 12 month project to do in 6 months and then 3 months in wondering why you arenowhere near the 3 months to go stage. Then deciding that to help things along he will tell you off and demand daily status reports until th project is back on track?
They are not and will not be ready on time without major cost. And by that I dont mean in monetary terms. I mean that the jo will be rushed, corners cut, workers asked to double shift and as a result some of them will be having preventable accidents that could easily lead to deaths. Think it won't happen? It happens in the UK every year already.
Decide right now to hold the competition somewhee else instead (I would suggest the UK as we have many worthy stadia, and if they avoid having too many games in England it shoulnt hurt their chances of hosting a world cup too badly). Ans postpone Poland/Ukrain until 2014
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The 24 team tournament was proposed by the FA of Scotland and the FA of Ireland. Those 2 Associations have premier leagues of just 10 and 12 teams respectively. They know that too many teams which do not meet the appropriate standard ruin a competition when it comes to their own leagues so it is a pity that they did not apply the same principle to the Eurp Championship.
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I am not surprised that Poland is having difficulty getting its infastructure and stadia ready for 2012, when most of its builders currently reside in North London.
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Well, that's a long way away from now, and i'm preety sure no one cares about that right now. Many things can change, England might even get it! Hopefully they shall get the world cup, or INDIA!!!
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Poland can and will deliver a tournament that will make them and football proud. It is exactly the kind of event that they deserve and need after 50 years of forced repression to lift the profile of the country on an international stage, beyond what we already know about them being hard workers. They are a feircely proud nation and I am proud to count a number of them as my close friends.
Look at the reports that come out daily about our own Olympics and the potential shambles that it could turn into with world events, money running short, big companies folding or pulling out etc, but do we ever actually think that we will fail to deliver a great games, of course not, we, being equally proud Brits that waited over 50 years for the games, believe that we'll deliver a brilliant games that the world will all remember. Let's give the Poles the benefit of the doubt, they have 4 years and the planning is there, even if there is some concern at FIFA.
Chris, London
p.s. host some games in Krakow, they are mad for footy there!
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Coment No. 9 - Finnharpsman
Change the record - how many teams have won the premiership in the last 10 years? Seem to recall that the big boys of Greece won the Euro 2004 - when giants of England were safely tucked up on there sun loungers in the Med!
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gamiller...I happen to agree with Finnharpsman. If you expand the tournament to 24 teams, you'll end up with footballing also-rans like England competing as well.
Surely that will only dilute the competition down?
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I am pretty sure this cannot be anything but good for the smaller nations in europe. granted some bigger nations that quirkily do not easily walk out may benefit. Remember how proud you feel when your country is playing and particularly doing well. I think it can only be a good thing to extend this to as many different nationalities as possible. Spread the feel good factor in effect.
PS great to see another Finn Harps man on here!
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@15 - A bit like Greece qualifying for the 2004 finals then?
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I forget, how many major competitions has Scotland qualified for since their last 1st round exit twelve years ago?
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A 24 team competition will really devalue the tournament in terms of quality as well as the qualifying rounds.
UEFA should start with a 20 team competition with 4 groups of 5 teams. The top team in each group automatically qualifying for the Quarter Finals and the Runners Up then playing the 3rd place team from another group in a Wild Card Round. Leaving the Winners of the Wild Card Round to join the Group winners in the Quarter Finals.
This would increase the number of teams in the tournament without significantly increasing the number of dead rubber games whilst ensuring that from the knock out Rounds onwards the level of quality of football remains as high as what we saw at Euro 2008.
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Great to see all the expert comments on this blog. 'I live in Poland and am qualified to comment on construction schedules'; 'I love the Ukraine and they will be on time or else I'll eat my virtual hat'. Keep it coming. Long live the blogosphere. Fiddle on Nero.
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I would echo other less chauvinistic posters on here. If it goes anywhere it will go to Spain. However Without a shadow of a doubt Poland will deliver, work having already commenced on the Stadium in Warsaw after some indecision.
I suspect that part of the reason for settling on some of the locations in Poland is that it reflects where the infrastructure can reasonably be expected to be in place on time. Poznan, Gdansk, Wroclaw and Warsaw are all well served by motorways and each has a good airport. Gdansk has the advantage of access by sea too (from Sweden).
The big surprise for me is that the second biggest city Lodz wasn't selected (quite possibly because the motorway network is still being developed and the LKS and Widzew grounds are to put it politely a bit wanting).
Krakow too being omitted is a surprise and I would have thought that the Wisla ground would already be a decent enough venue. Perhaps the concern here is that there already is a constant influx of tourists into the city which might make expanded capacity of accommodation less realistic.
As for any threat of hooligans the police and security services know what they are doing there and the hooligans know full well what the consequences of stepping out of line are.
The hosipitality of the Polish people is without equal. Its a beautiful country with a real passion for football and a great affection for Britain. The event will be one to enjoy and be proud of. It allows the Poles (not so much for the Ukrainians) to showcase their country after being under the Soviet jackboot for almost 60 years.
Be patient with both countries. They are still rebuilding from the devastation of the Second World War (one in four Poles died during that conflict) and the many years of Soviet occupation and repression.
PS I find Mihir Bose dire too.
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My work takes me regularly to Eastern Europe (mainly the south, but also the north), and without being disrespectful to the people who live there, it really still is a different world in comparison to Western Europe. I would say that the only country that comes close to western standards is Hungary, and even they're playing catch-up. Most of us are proud and protective of our home country, and rightly so, but a reality check is required here. The view from the unbiased outside is that both countries are struggling with the deadlines and everyone needs to realise that.
But then on the other hand, I remember reading similar remarks in the run up to the Athens olympics, and they delivered, seemingly against the odds. I know the lastminute.com manyana attitude is stereotypically mediterranean, but maybe it applies also to Poland/Ukraine - I hope they make it.
(I know manyana should be mañana but this site doesn't support latin1, so ñ is displayed ñ)
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Why is my post awaiting moderation?
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Ayrmale. I think you're proving his point... that's nothing to be proud of!
You'd have thought that they'll pull out all the stops and get this done - a bit like the Athens Olympics which looked / was months behind schedule but they nailed it late on.
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Why can't they just leave things as they are? The championship is great as it is with 16 teams. Adding 8 more teams means that we will end up with some countries that only finished 3rd in their qualifying groups!!
The way UEFA are going they might as well abandon the qualifying rounds and take all 53 countries and let them slog it out over 2 months. Host Countries for the World Cup are now limited because of there being 32 countries in the finals. Now we will see that same thing happening to the European Championships and some of the smaller countries will never get a chance to host.
I feared that this increase in numbers would happen.
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I have to agree with 'Debateable' about the qualification of people living in either Poland or the Ukraine to comment upon the issues in question. Though I know I fall into this category, having lived in Warsaw in Poland for 2 years, here are some cold hard FACTS to help put things into perspective...
In the last 30 years (yes, including Communist times when road building was hardly high up the agenda) the average length of motorways built in Poland has been 8km. Yes, 8. The prospect of building an average of 300 per year over the next 4 seems tricky to say the least.
Hooliganism and racism ARE a problem, and are not minor - Wilsonshere - have you been blinkered over the past few months? There were 750 arrests last month when the Warsaw derby was played between Polonia and Legia, and outside Warsaw the problem is far worse, with scenes of neo-nazism, banners depicting disgusting cartoons featuring KKK figures and frequent displays of what we would consider 70s style hooliganism being far from unusual. In some clubs players are even racially abused by their own fans, and some (albeit thankfully the badly educated minority) football 'fans' are proud of this type of behaviour, happily likening it to Britain, whilst not realising that this type of problem has practically been eradicated now in the UK.
But not to paint a picture, solely of doom and gloom.... I also agree wholeheartedly with MondrakeMan in that Poland (and no doubt Ukraine) are very proud nations that have suffered incredibly in the last 100 years, if not further, and thoroughly deserve the chance to host this event. My fingers are crossed (and thumbs gripped as they say in Poland) that the event is a success, but only time will tell.
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This whole 24 team thing I think will have a detrimental effect long-term. It means only half of teams will be eliminated in 15 months of qualifying and in that bunch you'll have the likes of the Faroes, Andorra and San Marino.
The tournaments will be unnecessarily longer with complicated qualifying from the groups with best 3rd placed teams and means that fewer will have the chance to host.
While part of me would like a Celtic bid to host 2012 sneak in through the back door, I think it would be a great shame if Poland and Ukraine miss out.
We've seen the problems if decisions haven't been thought through with the Tevez, Hammers/Blades thing and I can see Poland and Ukraine consulting legal people if it's taken away.
You have to deliver on your promises but if they go to 24 teams and these countries aren't able to make 2012, they will have effectively spent billions of Euros for no reason.
Sixteen teams works and until 2016 at least, it should stay that way. Postpone a 24 team event until 2020 because that will give some breathing space for Poland and Ukraine to do 2016 if they clearly can't make the deadline.
Spain are champions and haven't held it since 1964. It seems the sensible move to give it to them so everyone gets what they want.
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I've been readign Mihir Bose's blog posts for a while now, and seem to get the feeling that his articles tend to attract more criticism than anything else. Surely he is not that bad?
With regards to Poland and Ukraine, give them a chance! If they aren't ready by 2011, there are many countries in Europe who would be more than capable of hosting such an event if need be.
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frozenis,
I've been thinking that for a while too, but never got round to writing it down.
I completely agree with both your points - I mentioned earlier the Athens example...
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Mihir,
What has actually changed since your last blog on the same topic a couple of months ago?
It seems to me you are just going over old ground - will the roads in Ukraine be built in time? uefa are unlikely to give it to someone else as it's a joint bid etc. etc.
As someone else has already mentioned, why didn't you wait till the report was published and then comment on that. That way we might actually have a little more insight as to what the latest developments are, not going over old news.
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Did any of you actually read this, it says that Ukraine is the country more likely to struggle to meet the target
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This is obviously a bit of PR designed to try and make Poland and Ukraine pull their finger out a bit, whether they need to or not.
I don't see what difference this report will make, UEFA will have had emergency measures in place before now and they still will after the report comes out.
As for making the competition 24 teams I don't see what the massive problem is, surely the qualifying isn't going to be massively effected just the main competition. Once in the main competition then surely every match is as important as the next one. What they actually mean is that they fail to see how they can make more money from it!
Doesn't sound like the FA at all that does it!
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What is the point in expanding it to 24 teams? The region is only around 50 teams so every other country would qualify. It can only be for ££££. The last tournament was fine, perhaps would have been better if the co-hosts hadn't been so ordinary, but expanding the number of teams to allow co-hosting is a stupid idea.
Even expanding to 20 teams would be a better move, if one has to be made. Four groups of five, each playing four games, and two from each group go through. There would be only eight extra games which wouldn't extend the tournament too much.
Perhaps to highlight this I should point out that the World Cup had 24 teams in the finals in 1994, before it expanded to 32 in 1998, and there are a lot more teams worldwide than in Europe. Maybe the strength is better, but there are still countries like Liechtenstein, San Marino, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra, Scotland (just kidding), Iceland, Faroes etc at the bottom end of the scale.
And another way of pointing out the senseless nature of such a move is around 1 in 6 teams qualify for the World Cup, around 1 in 2 would qualify for the European Championship. Bigger does not necessarily mean better
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How do people think that 24 teams will devalue the competition? You are only adding 8 teams who on the most part are good and better than the hosts. From 2008 the teams that missed out that are decent are England, Scotland, Republic of Ireland, Norway, Serbia, Denmark, bulgaria, ukraine, bosnia, slovakia and israel. No offence to most british (english) fans on here but no team on that list is that much poorer than switzerland, sweden, austria or poland (who all played at 2008) or england (who didnt qualify). Also, it provides for some more upsets like Greece in 2004 and Russia 2008 rather than major countries like spain, italy, france and germany competing every tournament.
Also, poland will be an amazing place to hold a tournament as the public are amazing there and completely mad about football.
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There is a chance that Poland could make it, but there road infrastructure is poor enough there meaning that visitors will have to fly to the stadiums that have an airport nearby.
Ukraine has absolutely no road infrastructure and the building of stadia is in the hands of the local businessmen, as the local authorities have no money to build any.
I would be very surprised to see this joint venture being pulled off, Ukraine needs to build up the infrastructure of the entire country before wasting money on football stadia.
I hope they can prove me wrong but it doesn't look good
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Good to see that a number of people agree with me that there is no need to increase to 24. I am old enough to remember the World Cup with 16 teams and it was great. The tournament was not prolonged and the format simple. Two from each group qualifying and then straight into the quarter-finals. Now the World Cup goes on and on and on ... I actually met some fans who believe that it becomes boring now with so many group games.
Rest assured that before too long the UEFA people will see the need to increase the Euro championsip to 32 so practically no-one will be left at home!
It's all money my friends.
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24 is better and I think the big countries are the ones that don't like to see the second tier with more of a chance to be in it.
Just a fortnight ago, we saw Bosnia barely lose to Euro Champs Spain in Spain. The truth is, if teams that rarely or never go to the Euro take on those perennial powers and closely play them, I think they deserve the break, it be Scotland, Lithuania, Israel or whatever team. The big powers are not that much better.
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@35 problem with 20 teams in 4 groups of 5 is that one team doesn't play in each round arguably confering an advantage to any team that sits out last and who have already qualified. 24 teams in 4 groups of 6 could be interesting with 2 teams to qualify from each group. Not sure if the TV companies would be happy with 3 games played at the same time in the final round though.
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Why not just have 16 groups of 4.. expand the European Union to 14 additional countries and no one has to qualify.. ;)
As for Poland, don't give a crap what the roads are like. Or the hotels or airports. If the stadiums are up to scratch, the electricity works and they have half a dozen TV cameras it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
The standard of commentating and the quality of football isn't necessarily affected by how good the roads are.
If they have stadiums that are being used right now, then something must be working. Otherwise how else do the fans that watch teams like D.Kiev manage to arrive? Don't seem to remember a problem for too many Arsenal supporters last week. If you think Israel vs Moldovia will attract as large a crowd as D.Kiev vs Arsenal, and somehow this represents a problem, my questions to you are how long was the medication prescribed for and why did you stop taking it?
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