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Too 'European'

  • Matthew Price
  • 3 Nov 08, 04:37 AM GMT

What may not be obvious to some people, especially many of those reading this from outside the borders of the US, is how strongly many here feel about the possibility of an Obama presidency.

I'm not talking about those who want him to be their next leader. I'm referring to a large part of the country - many of whom I have met while following John McCain from rally to rally - that believes he should not be president.

This is not because of racism. There are some who do not want a black man running their country, but they are not a sizeable part of the electorate from what I have seen in recent weeks. I may be proved wrong on Tuesday, but I think that's the case.

Instead, many I have met in the last few weeks see Obama as a threat to their image of what their country truly is.

In Ohio last week I chatted to a group of men and women in their late 50s (I'd guess), who were waiting for John McCain to turn up. One told me he'd been excited by Obama when he first came on the scene. A woman agreed. Others murmured their understanding of what they were saying.

What had changed their minds? It boiled down to a sense that he was just a little bit too different. He seemed to have a different outlook, something they weren't quite sure about. Something unfamiliar.

Yes, they'd been helped along in forming this opinion by some of the rumours circulating about Obama, but I didn't sense that such rumours were the main reason for their doubts about him.

For many the fact that Barack Obama is different is intoxicating. For many others it is something that leaves them unsettled.

I'm not talking about the kind of people who yell at me outside rallies and demand to know why the media will not report the "fact" that Obama was not born in the USA. Please, just read this from a very reputable source.

This is about the people who simply feel his policies, and his approach would not be good for this nation. This is why John McCain's focus on "Barack the Redistributor" has hit a chord with many segments of the population here.

Remember Obama's comment about people clinging to their guns and their religion? Millions took that as criticism of those who go to church every Sunday, or who own a gun.

Remember also when Michelle Obama said: "For the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country"? In New York (where I am based) many I spoke to said they knew where she was coming from. Many millions though across this country did not have a clue where she was coming from. It simply sounded downright unpatriotic.

I have met many in the last few weeks who fear their country - if Obama becomes president - will be weakened.

That is because - for millions here - Barack Obama is not what they think of when they think of an American. For many I have met, he's simply too "European".

Comments

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  • 1. At 06:39am on 03 Nov 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    Thank you, Matthew, for a reasoned explanation of why a very substantial portion of this country will not vote for Obama. And, it may yet be a majority that realizes that this highly intelligent, charismatic gentleman will likely be a disaster in the Oval Office. Many of the folks you spoke with have long memories, and remember how the country suffered under Jimmy Carter. Obama looks and sounds chillingly like Carter on the stump.

    Many people are offended by the arguments made against his candidacy, that they are ad hominem. Given his thin public record, and short resume in the Illinois Senate and the US Senate, they have to look at who he is and from whence he came. It is a distressing picture. When they do understand his views, carefully explained in his own words, the prospect is more distressing still. Add to this the prospect of his Presidency with a majority in both houses of Congress, and you understand their distress even more clearly.

    You captured their thoughts succinctly. They are not racist monsters, not ignorant rednecks, not semi-literate hicks, despite all the vitriol the subsequent posters will toss their way.

    They are just Americans who have serious doubts about Barack Obama, and cannot bring themselves to vote for him.

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  • 2. At 06:49am on 03 Nov 2008, sdeesdee wrote:

    I had never quite made the connection to just how "European" Barrack really is but how could I have missed it?! - he is the classic image of a European head of state. If things don't work out here maybe he could run for Prime Minister?

    I'm sure the Brits would not mind putting him on the ballot, while he refuses to prove British citizenship, hiding behind legal maneuvers in the courts and then challenging the legality of citizenship requirements in the courts after he was elected.

    Seeing that we already have enough Manhattan elitists looking down their noses at us, feel free to hop over the pond and run with him.

    (btw factcheck.org is Annenberg - ring a bell? All tied up nicely in a bow for Obama and the DNC)

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  • 3. At 07:03am on 03 Nov 2008, JoJay50 wrote:

    You mean Obama might be a closet European? Shock horror! He might have a world embracing vision instead of a narrow, parochial "everyone who is not for us is against us" one? You mean he might actually be intelligent? Arghh, please no! Let's have four more years of gross ineptitude.

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  • 4. At 07:10am on 03 Nov 2008, AndyW35 wrote:

    Excellent post there Matthew. I guess you can sum it up "Better the devil you know".

    It's amusing that the US are worried about a "socialist" Obama but seem to have really liked a proper socialist in Tony Blaire, maybe perhaps because he was over there rather than in their own country.

    It does seem that both candidates carry some risk, but isn't the USA the land of the brave, not hesitent?

    Even if both candidates are bad when they are in charge they will only have 4 years, not a lifetime, neither will destroy America in that time, so that being the case, and considering the current problems, I think the gamble is well worth the risk.

    Mind you I am over here and not over there, so can afford to be brave.

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  • 5. At 07:23am on 03 Nov 2008, clueduprock wrote:

    The Michelle Obama comment situation worries me and I'm sure contributes to America's bad image around the world. Why is patriotism a requirement for citizenship? America has vigorously and often forcefully promoted an image of itself both inside America and outside, and for a long time. Some may be rightly proud of America's achievements, but some may be equally unimpressed with America's faults.

    Sure, most of America's bad image comes from its state and government - slurs on American people are most often unfair and wrong stereotypes.

    But it's the unthinking, automatic saluting of the flag (for a country which is not that young, and whose independence war was fought well outside of living memory) which makes people around the world worry about a large chunk of America's population.

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  • 6. At 07:54am on 03 Nov 2008, soulgrind wrote:

    Oddly, I feel that America's biggest flaw is it's patriotism, and it's obsession with it.

    And yet i can't help but feel that the UK could do with a little more from time to time.

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  • 7. At 07:54am on 03 Nov 2008, philipmach wrote:

    OldSouth, I don't remember Carter as being "charismatic". Relatively intelligent and principled, maybe, but his major lack was the ability to get people to back him through hardship (induced, may I remind you, by but one of the forces now faced by the next president, a steep rise in oil prices).

    If you thought Carter's economic track record was bad, how can you possibly not want something very different to Bush? Bush has melted down the economy on a scale not seen since 1929. Anyone who's scared of change in this scenario to the extent of backing the campaign of the status quo in is in serious need of help.

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  • 8. At 08:05am on 03 Nov 2008, Merthyrmiddleeast wrote:

    You have nothing to fear but fear itself. Time for a MUCH, MUCH needed change. Come on America, you can do it.

    For all our sakes.

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  • 9. At 08:06am on 03 Nov 2008, jimigorilla wrote:

    I think a reevaluation of Jimmy Carter's presidency may be in order. As far as I remember he warned against just the excesses that were the inevitable consequence of reagonomics. He tried to tell Americans that they had to take care of their environment lomng before Al Gore. He may not have been a wizard in foreign affairs, but then, American foreign policy hasn't been that resounding a success since he left office, has it? And since leaving office in that respect he has voiced a much more reasonable attitude than the White House. In retrospect I don't think history will judge him all that badly, especially after we've started to realize what reagonomics has really done to the world.

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  • 10. At 08:08am on 03 Nov 2008, velkyal wrote:

    Too "European"? So a guy who is half African, half white American (wonder though where they all came from?!) is too "European" - who teaches geography in the US?

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  • 11. At 08:10am on 03 Nov 2008, Shadow_Two wrote:

    I would like to thank Mr Price for voicing what so many of us in the US feel.

    I lived in Oxford for ten years (1988-1998), so I am very familiar with European politics, and how it differs from the States. Campaigns are short, usually not derisive, low-budget affairs, and held on different schedules than ours.

    But Obama scares me. You can dispute his birthplace, even FactCheck.org is that convincing, especially since he visited Hawaii (to visit his dying grandmother -- still alive) and the Governor of Hawaii had his birth certificate sealed until after the election. There is just to much we do not know about him!

    I have worked many years to be in the position I find myself. According to Obama, I am RICH. I own a small, profitable business, I have my own health insurance, and I pay my taxes.

    I find all of the above threatened (except paying taxes).

    There are still two bills in Congress sponsored by Obama: one for $750 billion that would go to the United Nations to then be given to poor countries; and a second bill of about $150 billion that would go to relieving the monies owed to the US by those who had borrowed money from us.

    As you can see, I do not want Obama -- I think he is a danger to us, our security, and therefore, a treat to Great Britain.

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  • 12. At 08:15am on 03 Nov 2008, FinMember wrote:

    Why is it that a very large number of Americans are closet bigots? Why is owning a gun so important. Why is critisizing your government so unpartriotic? Many people, Dems or Reps will not vote for Obama because he is black. Let us hope there are enough intelligent people left to steer the US away from the bush cheney mccain regime that have caused the worst financial world meltdown by encouraging and rewarding greed. It is time the middle class wakes up.

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  • 13. At 08:16am on 03 Nov 2008, U5656350 wrote:

    Sometimes I wish Americans were a little more European and would engage in some critical viewing of their (our) country. Often, any critique is considered unpatriotic. I for one, refuse to be servile and timorous and I have never spared the criticism of my country regardless.


    OldSouth's comment epitomizes this: Carter is considered per se a poor President.

    I would like to point out that he actually had a better plan for a sustainable future than most presidents since. Perhaps if people would bother reading his state of the union address 1978, you will find that he was aiming to reduce the USA's dependence on foreign oil, etc... His view of human rights was also far more moral and sustainable than Reagan's. Had we stuck to those programs, as it were, we might have a ton of friends in the world and we might even have peace in the Middle East. Instead, we took the Ronald Reagan-neocon program for national disasters. Since Ronald "Happy Days" Reagan our dependency on foreign oil has grown and the world, which once respected us, either fears being bombed or can't stand us.

    Perhaps the greatest long-term disaster is "Main Street"'s hatred of education, of "debate and discussion" about topics. Everything in the USA has become "quick fix." I mean people can hardly communicate in full sentences anymore, they cannot listen, either. So our world is one of LOL and ROFL and IMHO. And thus we short-fix ourselves into a mess and would then like the instant gratification of being out of the mess by the weekend, because TGIF.

    A friend of mine in Switzerland saw Obama and Clinton together. He noticed something interesting: Obama was really listening to Clinton.

    That, for him, was the best reason to vote for Obama. That may not be a European quality. It's a great quality. It's the sign of a compassionate individual. I think it is time to try that system rather than the "ignore'em or bomb'em" system... But our country likes Hollywood fixes, they like it, when after witnessing a horrid bloodbath, the hero and heroine hit the sack in ecstasy.

    Go figure.

    I say: if Obama wins, we may well gain a lot of global support, not a bad idea. Peace is cheaper than war. If McCain wins, I think we will become even more irrelevant as a nation (perhaps not a bad idea), since our economy will continue to be modelled along the lines of some ancient Latin American oligarchies, and militarily we are already overextended. On the other hand, we can look forward to a lot of good comedy until either Mac or Palin decide that it's time for everyone to enjoy rapture.

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  • 14. At 08:20am on 03 Nov 2008, potatolord wrote:

    Heh. I really hope Obama loses, not because I dislike him and God knows the Republicans need a good kicking for their performance, but so that I can see the media and all the dreamers turn purple with rage. They'll all hate him within 6 months of a win anyway...

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  • 15. At 08:21am on 03 Nov 2008, Merthyrmiddleeast wrote:

    Shadow

    I love the Freudian slip. He would indeed be a 'treat'.

    Poor you having your RICHness threatened. What will happen to you as a result? Will you be taking on 5 jobs to make ends meet or perhps sacrificing your children's Higher Education because you can no longer afford to send them.

    Get real, please.

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  • 16. At 08:22am on 03 Nov 2008, markdman wrote:

    I'm stunned by this perception that he is "too European". The problem is that there are two Americas: the one on the coasts where people have a more liberal, cosmopolitan outlook, look to embrace the rest of the world, value education and worry less about strict religious values and the one in the middle where the most important things are that one is seen to be a devout Christian and where the rest of the world is seen as a frightening place that hates America.

    Obama clearly falls into the first camp - this does not make him European or un-American, it makes him liberal and, oddly enough, a Democrat.

    The Republicans have played this split for the past two elections and have used it to drive a wedge between middle America and the liberal coasts. This has caused middle America to view the coasts with distrust and the coasts to view middle America with disdain.

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  • 17. At 08:29am on 03 Nov 2008, theoldgoat wrote:

    Patrotism has many faces, some of them good. its got America into a lot of trouble over the centuries, much of which has not gone well.

    I was stunned to hear the other day that Americans vote for character rather than policy. It explains a lot. Maybe they should reflect on that a little tomorrow, since that's what got Bush elected for two terms. The result of that is plain to see in the two theatres of war they are mired in right now.

    However scared the US is of change, they maybe should look at their own history and think a little at what America would be like now, had some changes never happened?

    Some of us had our hearts in our mouths yesterday as Lewis Hamilton snatched his hard fought championship victory at the last corner. Will the US do the same tomorrow.....

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  • 18. At 08:31am on 03 Nov 2008, potatolord wrote:

    "The problem is that there are two Americas: the one on the coasts where people have a more liberal, cosmopolitan outlook...and where the rest of the world is seen as a frightening place that hates America."

    Hahaha! Most of the rest of the world DOES hate America! Just travel around Europe and see...

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  • 19. At 08:43am on 03 Nov 2008, akaTurkish_delight wrote:

    The bottom line is that McCain supporters appear to have a stereotypical image in their minds of what someone who is the President of the United States of America should look like and that person in their mind is not black. All other arguments such as he is too European, too Socialist, too different appear to stem from this single underlying issue of race.

    They need to question their entrenched attitutes towards race and racism. What happened to equal opportunity? Why pass up the opportunity to elect the best candidate for the post of President solely on the basis of race?

    We need to embrace difference. As the English poet William Cowper said, “Variety's the very spice of life, That gives it all its flavour".









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  • 20. At 08:51am on 03 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #18 potatolord

    I think there is a big difference between 'hating' Americans and 'hating' the American government. I hold the view that the world's opinion of the US will change when Obama is elected.

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  • 21. At 08:55am on 03 Nov 2008, Joe_the_Blogger wrote:

    Your observation is astute, Matthew.

    Six months ago I never would have imagined the possibility of an Obama Presidency--I thought Hillary would face McCain in a dead heat not altogether different from the election of 2000. I doubted Obama's ability to clinch the nomination because of his multi-ethnic background--if we're going to be real, we have to admit that it's at least a subconsciously unsettling factor for many Americans, particularly in rural areas--and his position well to the left of what is considered the American political mainstream.

    But his youth, energy, and, as you put it, "different"ness not only earned him that nomination; from all appearances, it will very likely put him in the White House. With respect to OldSouth, Obama reminds me much more of a John Kennedy than a Jimmy Carter.

    I am an Obama supporter not because I believe he has all the right answers--his relatively tame stances on health care reform and foreign relations in the Middle East, for instance, sorely miss the mark in my view--but because his attitudes are about as far from those embodied by the Bush administration as one could realistically hope for on the scene today. Obama is no King Arthur, but he will at least be able to help repair the internal and external damage caused by one of the most disastrous regimes in U.S. history, and he will be able to do this largely by virtue of his "European" demeanor and outlook, and because he does not represent the hawkish, evangelical, militaristic neo-conservatism of the Bush years as does McCain and certainly as does Palin.

    Nevertheless, a portion of even the centrist and moderate voting populace here will not support Obama because of the way in which he conflicts with their image of America as a righteous, puritanical, peace-brokering world power which speaks softly but carries a big stick, an obsolete and frankly broken image I hoped had long disappeared from reasonable minds by now. Instead, Obama represents an America which realizes it has severe problems and issues which are its own doing, not those of other nations, and that it needs to radically adjust its behavior on the world stage in order to remain merely credible, much less respected. That is the real America of our time.

    It is interesting that OldSouth brought up Jimmy Carter. Carter's campaign marked the first instance in modern times in which a candidate's religious beliefs were used as a major pylon supporting a political platform. Let us hope that an Obama victory will mark the end of that sad, regressive era in U.S. politics, an era in which the murmurs of the undereducated and overopinionated concerning patriotism, God, and "Americanness" drowned out what little intelligent political discourse was to be found in the many great small towns of this nation.

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  • 22. At 09:04am on 03 Nov 2008, ShirleyAbicair wrote:

    An American columnist put it best. If Obama wins America will, at long last, be under adult supervision again.

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  • 23. At 09:04am on 03 Nov 2008, possumpam wrote:

    Get real OldSouth. You remind me of a charming, talented ,highly intelligent, old
    friend of mine - a typical American Southern gentleman - who insisted that the one and a half million of us who marched in London against the invasion of Iraq were a figment of the UK Press
    imagination. He claimed that only a few marched and that they came mostly from Rent- a- Crowd.
    Best wake up from your Southern dream
    before you find yourself governed by Hockey Mum and 6-pack Pete'

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  • 24. At 09:10am on 03 Nov 2008, BosArty wrote:

    Not sure how Obama is seen as more European. And would it be a bad thing? Yes, Europe seems a lot more Liberal than here, but again is that a bad thing. I think the ones who see Obama as European are the ones who also think he's a Socialist, and Socialist to these kinds of people means Communist.

    Color will always be an issue with, Obama. I'm the son of immigrants, my parents came here from Sri Lanka. I was born here in America but my color is still an issue with some, shall we say, more right wing people. I actually moved to the coast to get away from that kind of bigotry.

    So i laugh when people say Obama's color has nothing to do with not wanting to vote for him. It may not be the main reason with some, but it's still an issue.

    We need change, this country is stagnating right now. Obama is the only real choice for change, as a vote for McCain is a vote for another four years of Bush. And heaven forbid should McCain pass on and Sarah Palin ever become President!

    I'm patriotic for my country, i ignore the shouts of Socialist and Commie thrown at Obama, by people who just don't know any better. Obama will win tomorrow, and i for one will be proud to be an American.

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  • 25. At 09:13am on 03 Nov 2008, PoodleBlair wrote:

    Shadow_Two: "...the Governor of Hawaii had his birth certificate sealed until after the election."

    Rubbish. Hawaii state law forbids the release of birth or marriage certificates to anyone but the persons named in the documents or their immediate relatives.

    Obama's birth certificate was released to the public in June this year.

    BTW, John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. I guess that makes him 'foreign' too?

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  • 26. At 09:17am on 03 Nov 2008, Schwerpunkt wrote:

    17. theoldgoat wrote:

    "I was stunned to hear the other day that Americans vote for character rather than policy. It explains a lot. Maybe they should reflect on that a little tomorrow, since that's what got Bush elected for two terms. "

    I also hope many more fo my fellow citizens vote on policy rather than character or presentation as it is Obama's policies that I see as his weakness.

    When you look at what the man actually supports and promotes it is very unappealing to many many Americans. I know that at present he is loved in Europe (not difficult really as he has not yet done anytihng they can be upset about) and Africa (as they see this hald caucasian half negro American born, partly Malaysian dwelling man as one of their own for some reason). I though am more interested in what we have gleaned his intentions are and they turn me right off.

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  • 27. At 09:19am on 03 Nov 2008, ficheye wrote:

    POTATOLORD, I'll bet that you burned insects with a magnifying glass when you were young. You're comments seem to be anarchistic in nature, serving no purpose except to make people angry.

    Obama will win, even with all his imperfections. People will see that they can relax with him at the helm; that is, if the specter of the confederacy would just go away. We need to move beyond hate. That is what is driving voters to say they fear him even when it means that a fundamentalist christian lunatic may become president. That is a hate that runs deep. It's not fear. Hate. And ignorance. Now go back to your potatoes.

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  • 28. At 09:40am on 03 Nov 2008, MoniqueSimmer wrote:

    So Obama is "too European"? Most Americans are so provincial that they don't have any real idea what this means - most of them have never been here, or been here for such a short time as tourists that they still have no idea how things really work over here (I am speaking as an American expat who has lived happily in Germany for nearly 30 years, and who spent several years in France and Germany as a child as well - I suppose this means I am not a 'real American', but by Palin's definition, I wouldn't want to be). If those ignorant, insular Joe and Jane Sixpacks are not awake and aware enough to see what Obama really has to offer, we'll take him over here any day - the Germans would elect him Chancellor in a heartbeat! The Europeans have their problems, but their systems overall are a lot more humane than the American one in many ways. Barack and Michelle are the kind of Americans we need - we couldn't possibly ask for better role models, nationally or internationally! They symbolize everything that is good about America - it's such a refreshing and heartwarming change from the past 8 abysmal years!

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  • 29. At 09:41am on 03 Nov 2008, BenisBored wrote:

    I love how there is still denial from some that Obama IS American.

    BTW should McCain win, how much do you think it will cost me to get a bombshelter put under my back garden?

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  • 30. At 09:43am on 03 Nov 2008, potatolord wrote:

    "@ 20. dceilar wrote:
    #18 potatolord

    I think there is a big difference between 'hating' Americans and 'hating' the American government. I hold the view that the world's opinion of the US will change when Obama is elected."

    You might hold that view, but it is wrong. People's opinions will not change so easily. If you travel around Europe, you will find that many people don't like Americans, regardless of the government. The views in the middle East are even stronger.

    The election of Obama is likely to result in a huge disappointment for people like you.

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  • 31. At 09:48am on 03 Nov 2008, MikeCreek wrote:

    I think part of the reason US voters vote more on character the policies is that, unlike Britain, the President is not a part of the legislature and may not even be a member of the majority party. Because of this, the things candidates propose during the election rarely if ever get passed. You often hear people say that it doesn't matter who wins, because none of them ever do what they say anyways. Also, the President is the face of the nation to the rest of the world, unlike Britain where you have a monarchy. I think this is why people always want to vote for the candidate they feel relates to them. They want to see a President who represents the same America that live in everyday. I think people have a hard time relating to Obama because he does not represent the same America that they believe in.

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  • 32. At 09:53am on 03 Nov 2008, bonaku wrote:

    What is wrong it he is too European? At the end of the day all white people are from Europe,and it is quite strange that they hate their origin. When it comes of Obama policies, McCain told it is like bit Swedish. It is very interesting to observe that Sweden is one of the happiest country(in top 5), very less crime rate, very strong medium scale industries, open minded, and not to forget their brave effort in protecting Jews from Nazi's. Last but not least they have very good education system and health care system and is one the best in the world. So all Americans should be very great-full to Obama, that he going to make US a Sweden. My stay in Denmark (which is also similar to Sweden) made me feel that i am living in Heaven. I hope all American can also live in heaven like Sweden or Denmark.

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  • 33. At 09:57am on 03 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    "It boiled down to a sense that he was just a little bit too different. He seemed to have a different outlook, something they weren't quite sure about. Something unfamiliar. "

    Intelligence maybe?

    Peace

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  • 34. At 10:02am on 03 Nov 2008, Bobsy26 wrote:

    A bit surprised that this should knocking around this late in the campaigning. It was obviously a big concern for various parts of the electorate earlier in the year, when Obama went on his whirlwind tour of Europe being all presidential. But I'm a little surprised if it's a major put-off at this stage, since Obama's been focussing mostly on domestic policy for months now. Does that still make people think him "European"?

    But don't underestimate the dangers of percieved Europhilia. It was the killer blow to John Kerry's (admittedly already weaker) campaign in 2004.

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  • 35. At 10:09am on 03 Nov 2008, almartino wrote:

    If you are right and the silent majority would vote for McCain because of fears that Obama is too European, because he is too different (translate innovative, intelligent and eloquent) then America and Americans get what they deserve.

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  • 36. At 10:23am on 03 Nov 2008, gotoLL wrote:

    Please correct your story. You misquote Michelle Obama.

    She did not say "for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country." She said, "For the first time in my adult life I am REALLY proud of my country."

    I believe it's inaccurate to interpret her [corrected] saying as meaning that 'she was not proud before and she is now.' Instead, the corrected quote seems to imply pride as a matter of degree--and frankly what African-American is not bursting with pride over the prospect of the first Black President?

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  • 37. At 10:25am on 03 Nov 2008, Journomonkey wrote:

    Good link to Fact Check! Another great and perhaps better presented/easier to use fact website is www.politifact.com (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/)

    It's owned by a non-profit making institute for media studies and the newspaper which operates the website has won several Pulitzer prizes over the last few years, so I reckon they are a reliable source of information.

    What the website does is take statements made by the candidates - in ads or speeches etc - and put them to the truth test, with rigourous and impressive research. I think it's so good because you can just look quickly at each candidate's truth record or you can read the investigations in depth to see how they reach their conclusions.

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  • 38. At 10:30am on 03 Nov 2008, MikeCreek wrote:

    bonaku

    It's a lot easier to keep your populous happy when you're a small homogeneous country like Sweden or Denmark.

    This makes me realize that probably the best comparison for US politics, would be EU politics. Its a lot harder to make a diverse electorate like the US or the EU happy. Kind of like how you guys voted down the constitution and Lisbon, because your were more concerned with how it effected each of you instead of Europe on the whole.

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  • 39. At 10:31am on 03 Nov 2008, The Midland 20 wrote:

    Some European countries - such as Sweden, Finland and Denmark - have an enviable standard of living in almost every single respect. A very strong state, a sense of society, good welfare and first class healthcare.

    And yet these countries also retain a strong sense of individualism and independence. Ideas that that matter to so many Americans.

    The USA should model itself much more on these countries - if it truly cares about all of it's citizens. Yes they are European. But many Americans would feel at home in them even so.

    That is the road Obama has to take. If he is to win both sides over.




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  • 40. At 10:39am on 03 Nov 2008, DutchNemo wrote:

    ''That is because - for millions here - Barack Obama is not what they think of when they think of an American. For many I have met, he's simply too "European".''

    What is wrong with being ''European''?
    I know some Americans associate Europe with socialism but I did not know that belief is so common among ordinary Americans. Maybe I should not be surprised: many Europeans associate the United States with 'cowboy capitalism' and 'fat rednecks'. I guess we are both ignorant.

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  • 41. At 10:44am on 03 Nov 2008, shamanjake wrote:

    Well, I'm an actual "European" and if Obama was running for office here in Britain I wouldn't vote for him because he's much too unEuropean for my liking. He seems like one of those "world citizen" types, which is fine but not a quality I desire in a national leader. I'd want a national leader to be more national than international.

    That said, I'm not keen on McCain either. Hillary Clinton would have had my vote - she's smart, strong, experienced, and emphatically American.

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  • 42. At 11:02am on 03 Nov 2008, doctorwascher wrote:

    Much has been made in the press regarding several "clinico-political" concerns about Senator McCain, and specifically regarding his relatively remote cancer history and the current status of his emotional and mental health. His selection of an admittedly out-of-the-box running mate has also lent itself to much derision regarding his judgment (although it can honestly be said that both candidates have engaged in considerable triangulation in this respect). These concerns are, of course, entirely legitimate ones to entertain during these very trying times in our nation. However, a broad review of articles and columns in the mainstream press does not reveal much in the way of analogous concerns regarding Mr. Obama.

    For example, there has been considerable speculation and murmuring about the potential long-term adverse effects on Mr. McCain's mental health as a consequence of the very traumatic years that he spent as a POW in Hanoi. On the other hand, there has been virtually no detectable discussion of Mr. Obama's peripatetic (and some would say "unstable") childhood following the disappearance of his father from his life, and his mother's premature death from cancer, as examples of early-life traumas that may conceivably have had long-term adverse effects on the psyche of a young Mr. Obama as well

    Regarding Mr. McCain's physical health, his increasingly distant history of cancer and, obviously, his age, are appropriate topics for discussion. However, Mr. McCain, in an effort to dispel concerns about his health, allowed a cross-section of reporters to review more than 1,000 pages of his medical records, while the much younger Mr. Obama, apparently, and to the apparent satisfaction of the popular media, released only a brief medical statement regarding his health.

    In an area where both health and judgment (if not character) may intersect, Mr. Obama, it is known, is a smoker. However, there has been virtually no observable discussion regarding any potentially adverse implications of Senator Obama's acknowledged addiction to nicotine, which I, as a cancer physician and scientist (and voter), find rather amazing.

    Smoking continues to represent the single greatest preventable cause of life-threatening diseases in the United States, including the #2 cause of death, cancer (including smoking-associated cancers of the lung, oral cavity, larynx and pancreas), and the #1 cause of premature death, cardiovascular disease (including coronary artery disease, peripheral vascular disease and stroke). To this grim list, one must also add the chronic lung diseases emphysema and bronchitis, as well. (It should also be noted, objectively, that Mr. McCain is an ex-smoker himself, although he began smoking in an era when the manifold adverse effects of smoking were less well understood.)

    Thus, while aspersions have been rampantly cast regarding the purported displays of poor judgment by John McCain, one never seems to come across commentary about the striking disparity between Senator Obama's vaunted intellect and political judgment, on the one hand, and his decision to become a smoker, on the other hand? Does not this ill-advised choice, by a father of two young daughters, a husband, and a man who would be President, at least suggest a serious lapse in judgment?

    Over the past three decades, we have learned a great deal about addiction behaviors and addiction biology. Nicotine stimulates the same reward systems in the brain, via the potent neurotransmitter dopamine, that other addictive drugs also stimulate (including cocaine, which Mr. Obama has acknowledged using in the past). Moreover, recent research has uncovered as many as 400 separate genes that may be associated with an increased vulnerability towards addiction to nicotine and other drugs, leading to a so-called "addiction phenotype." Additionally, several studies have also identified possible biological links between the presence of some of these so-called "addiction genes," perturbations in brain dopamine metabolism, and abnormal reward-seeking behavior in both animals and humans. (Perhaps, becoming the President of the United States represents the ultimate dopamine-producing reward attainable in our society.)

    It is certain that all of us, including reporters, view these two exceptional men through the lenses of our own internal biases. But the conspicuously asymmetrical coverage afforded these two candidates in terms of important physical and mental health-related factors, as well as their relevant lifestyle-related judgments, and despite the obvious presence of an assortment of these types of imperfections in both men, begs the question of how objective the reportage of these two candidates has been in the popular media, in my view.

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  • 43. At 11:09am on 03 Nov 2008, timetoponder wrote:

    Only 7% of americans hold passports so obviously their impressions of the rest of the Wolrd will be somewhat blinkered.
    I find it incredible in 2008 people still worry about the colour of a persons skin! How pathetic is that. Colour is skin deep and if you are telling me that people in the US cannot look beyond the skin then boy the whole world is in deep trouble because who they vote for effects each and everyone of us.
    Surely they cannot possible vote Rebulican having seen eight years of total disaster on all fronts and their reputation slipping in the World. Surely this is the one time they seriously need change?

    I hope all those who are serious about standing up and being counted really do get out there and vote. The World stands at a cross road and time is seriously running out if we don't take drastic action to save this planet. It won't matter soon who is in power it will be too late!!

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  • 44. At 11:16am on 03 Nov 2008, Kíllìnghölmê_Clᥠ(aka Charlie Cheesecake) wrote:

    A candidate that is black, almost a socialist and too european.

    Not too frightening when you consider the last eight years of war, arrogance, ignorance and intolerance of other cultures.

    With Obama, the world might be a safer more peaceful place. If Americans make McCain president they will get exactly what they deserve. Unfortunately the rest of the world will suffer.

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  • 45. At 11:17am on 03 Nov 2008, seadhna wrote:

    It is indeed frightening to think what this man might do to the country

    Things like destroy its image on the world stage, drive it into recession, embroil it in wars and conflicts it cannot get out of, drive the national debt quite literally off the scale...

    Am....

    I think someone beat him to it

    Time for a change?






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  • 46. At 11:22am on 03 Nov 2008, DKAlbion wrote:

    Oh, what nonsense! They won't vote for Obama because of some vague 'difference' they sense, but which they can't explain. And that's not racism? I seriously doubt they'd find that difference in a white Democratic candidate. It seems fairly obvious that the difference they are trying so hard to find, yet are unable to vocalise is that he is black. Stop dressing it up as anything else. Sadly, many in the US will still twist themselves in knots trying to find a reason not to vote for Obama.

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  • 47. At 11:24am on 03 Nov 2008, SpeleoKarst wrote:

    30 potatolord wrote:

    "@ 20. dceilar wrote:
    #18 potatolord

    >>I think there is a big difference between
    >>'hating' Americans and 'hating' the
    >>American government. I hold the view that
    >>the world's opinion of the US will change
    >>when Obama is elected."

    >You might hold that view, but it is wrong.
    >People's opinions will not change so easily. If
    >you travel around Europe, you will find that
    >any people don't like Americans, regardless
    >of the government.

    ______________

    Potatolord, in the vast majority of cases, Europeans disliking Americans regardless of the government will, in 99% of the cases, be a result any obnoxious behaviour or attitudes by the individual Americans involved.

    Are you speaking from personal experience?

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  • 48. At 11:26am on 03 Nov 2008, DKAlbion wrote:

    Another thing I note - you seem to have been infected by the McCain campaign rather than simply reporting it, Matthew.

    When I saw the headline: McCain Campain - Too European, I assumed that your report would be about McCain. After all, it's the McCain campaign you're reporting on, right?

    Yet, just like the campaign itself, you spend your entire report talking not about McCain, his policies, his aims, his character, but about what's wrong with Obama.

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  • 49. At 11:38am on 03 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    To # 42

    A slow painful death through smoking or a slow painful death via Palin. Tough choice.

    Peace

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  • 50. At 11:40am on 03 Nov 2008, lycaon wrote:

    42 doctorwascher: "Much has been made in the press..." You're exaggerating. Of the concerns you mention, the only one that has stuck is over McCain's age, and that largely because of his VP choice. If MCain had chosen more wisely or if Obama had been twenty years older you might have a point about biased reporting about the health of the candidates. As it stands you're wrong (and verbose). Much more economical and informative would simply have been the following (easily found) link:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/health/chi-0708-health-smokejul08,0,5016701.story

    Which also discusses McCain's history of smoking (a point you conveniently downplay). Your link between smoking and political judgement is forced. McCain's judgement has been criticised on political grounds, grounds much more relevant than smoking and a contortionist argument.

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  • 51. At 11:47am on 03 Nov 2008, popefridge wrote:

    Americans fear an articular and intelligent leader, they want someone simple who reflects them. This is why they loved Bush and Palin. Unfortunately voting for someone nice but stupid can be quite dangerous. Yes Obama is too "European", but this is a good thing for the USA. It is about time they elected someone worthy of office instead of someone they could have a beer with. Many Americans do not own a passport and know very little about the outside world. So any talk about welfare policies coming from a guy with a non-christian name will scare them in their little bubble. It doesn't matter if Europe is leaving the USA behind, Americans will always believe they are #1 and will always want to stay on their historical course no matter where it takes them.

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  • 52. At 11:47am on 03 Nov 2008, joshzungu wrote:

    Sorry, but this is awful. I guess Matthew Price has been hanging around the McCain campaign too much, since he is reading into and accepting many of the false statements put out by the McCain campaign.

    I have been working out in the field in several toss-up states over the last few weeks, and it seems clear to me that McCain supporters do not think Obama is too "European", they just think he is too "different". This has been the strategy of the McCain campaign to sculpt the image of Obama into something that people do not understand or are afraid of. All of thier false statements about Paris Hilton, Bill Ayers, Socialism, etc. None of these were true.

    C'mon Mr. Price, I would think you would be smart enough not to buy into the bias of the McCain campaign and produce an objective political piece. Instead you have written something that validates the fears of people who support McCain.

    Awful!

    We need someone in this country who is looking to this future, not the past. We all respect John McCain, but Barack Obama is who we need to change the direction of the USA.

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  • 53. At 11:54am on 03 Nov 2008, COROVICD wrote:

    That is the same reason Americans didn't choose Al Gore, who was far too 'European'. It seems that each US election is always re-enactment of their civil war.

    A big half of Americans takes pride in being primitive (from European point of view).

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  • 54. At 11:54am on 03 Nov 2008, ekim69 wrote:

    EUROPEAN? Hmmm....much of the US has a somewhat distorted view of Europe...there is an "ignorance" of how the European system is set up. From what I've been able to learn (not much due to a lack of information that is not readily accessible in a clear concise short version--help me out if there's a book/aricle with an overview) it makes sense. The individuals, in the US, I talk to are usually of a Judeo/Christian/Zionist background and when I ask them who the most famous "socialist" is they of course think Marx, Stalin, etc...When I say no--try Jesus Christ they just kind of stare as if they never thought of it. Seems many know they're Bible better than I yet don't get the KEY points. In a modern society there's no reason why a wealthy nation has uninsured individuals and the kids don't go on to college due to lack of money...just doesn't make sense. But, and there's that but, until the pervasive mindset of America evolves from slap you in the face Capitalism to a modified European plan well we're just "blowing smoke" when it comes to our politics. My suggestion to my fellow Americans is to learn more about European and other foreign systems in place and take it one step better. And just because we get a few European whiners over here doesn't mean that the entire European system is broke and can't be fixed (NOTE: IF Europe was that bad we'd have an uncontrollable influx of immigrants). No system is perfect but with the aid of our European ancestors and with "Yankee" ingenuity, well lets just say we could make a good idea even better. First, Americans need to realize our systems have broken down due to greed and avarice...not against anyone making money--have to until man learns he has no need of money...but in order to fix the problem first you need to admit you have a problem...sounds like some sort of rehab doesn't it?

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  • 55. At 11:54am on 03 Nov 2008, vballboy wrote:

    I have been an American voter since 1978 and I've experienced some dramatic swings back and forth between the Republicrats and Depblicans. I personally see very little difference between the two parties, and severely wish the two-party system would release it's stranglehold on American politics to allow true mitli-party politics. The evangelicals and conservatives should splinter from the moderate, old school G.O.P. and us Green Party liberals need to leave the Democratic fold. In this fashion, Americans can break the nasty trend of "We are the 51% majority so we are doing things only our way!", ugly partisan politics that has dominated things for too long.

    As far as Obama, I will vote for him because we Americans can not take any more Bush-Cheney directions that continue the heinous Global War on Terror, corporate/special interest favoritism. Obama will win and that is for certain. That said, some Americans have drank the McCain-Palin Kool-Aid that is a continuation of the Republican Swift-Boat, smear tactics to win at any and all costs. The "leadership" of the RNC has made ugly, partisan politics the norm and there are votes for Obama that reflect disgust of their partisanship.

    Those Republicans who "drank McCain-Palin Kool-Aid" also listen exclusively to Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and right-wing fanatics who have convinced these voters that only their (obviously neoconservative/Evangelical bias) radio and television broadcasts are honest. They are essentially brain-washed and do not look outside media that supports thier hateful political agendas. And to this end, Obama is literally an evil-doer, to quote Bush. These are the people who attend McCain-Palin rallies and scream obsenities at the mention of Obama's name.

    Hopefully we, the true majority as evidenced on election day, will slowly calm them down and maybe they can consider the world outside their Republican blinders.

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  • 56. At 11:54am on 03 Nov 2008, SeverityOne wrote:

    Europe has not had very good experiences with patriotism, nationalism, chauvinism, whatever: it led to two devistating world wars that rendered Europe from the continent that ruled the world, to something that no longer did.

    In the USA, the nation is what unites people; in Europe, it's what divides them, because ethnic lines and national borders do often diverge.

    Very often, people make the mistake of forgetting how fundamentally different North-America and Europe are. It's easy to do so, because of the many similarities that exist, but in essence the two continents are very different.

    So whilst personally I think that some European morals and values would be the best thing that could ever happen to the USA, I can see where those fears are coming from.

    But they are more fears for the unknown, I think, than anything else.

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  • 57. At 11:55am on 03 Nov 2008, Spin_King_05 wrote:

    So, Obama is more 'European'. What does it mean? It means that he is more worldly, more sophisticated, dare I say, more civilized. American needs him. The world needs him!

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  • 58. At 11:56am on 03 Nov 2008, U9238686 wrote:

    It seems noone, not even McCain himself can think of a decent reason not to vote for Obama.

    "There's just something about him"

    Typical middle american racism

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  • 59. At 11:58am on 03 Nov 2008, vballboy wrote:

    Oh, and yes...there are too many American voters who are racist and cannot bring themselves to vote for a black man. It is a shameful aspect of an otherwise beautiful America.

    As I read from a journalist a few days ago, if Obama were white, the Democrats would literally win this election in a landslide.

    We Americans who loathe Bush-Cheney appreciate the patience that Europe and the World has afforded us to get rid of that Texas idiot and prevent John McBush and Bible Spice from having a chance at continuing the Bush-Cheney Regime.

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  • 60. At 12:01pm on 03 Nov 2008, Bobsy26 wrote:

    @DKAlbion (#48)

    Perhaps we should take this as a reflection of McCain's campaign, rather than Matthew's ability as a journalist? If all anyone can talk about in either camp is Obama - love him or loathe him - it's a rather poignant sign of the tone of the election.

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  • 61. At 12:04pm on 03 Nov 2008, kevnic wrote:

    I think people are skewing the comment to once again deflect criticism of this man. These are the reasons people think he is too European:

    (1) Obamas view of Healthcare and his economic plan sounds very similar to the European model. America is more about entreprenership that will promote self reliance.

    (2) His comment about people in the South clinging to religion and their Guns is also very European. Europe have the most empty churches in the world. It would seem that since taking on a Multi Cultural view they have thrown their Christian charachter in the dustbin. There have also been many cases where Pastors in Europe have been taken to court for speaking out against homosexuality.
    (3) His reluctance to fight is also veru un-American and pro European. Since World War two Europe have taken a cowardly pacifist view and that irks most ordinary Americans. Foe those Americans who dont want to fight please remember it was a war that gave the country independence. It was also a war that saved the Union and stopped Slavery.
    (4) Obamas view on Same sex marriage is also similar to Europe and that is why most Conservatives will not vote for him. In Spain they passed a law that will have the terms Mother and Father omitted from Birth Certificates and insead have Parent 1 and Parent 2. This is being done so not to upset Same Sex couples- this is very un-American

    (5)His refusal to support the war in Iraq is also very European, remember the many demonstrations. For the average American their so called Allies failed them when their help was needed. Especially bearing in mind that America saved their bacons in WW11.

    (6) His views on the israeli/Arab conflict is very similar to Europe as they are Pro Palestinian and at worst Anti-Semetic. His alleged association with Pro Palestinian Professors do not help either.

    (7) His views about speaking to Iran's leaders and other Dictators without pre-conditions is also very European.

    Before you all starting to call me Red Neck and racist i am a Black Man. I am just of the view that giving our over 32,000 Nuclear warheads in the hands of a man that have barely served two terms in the Senate. Whose endorsements was propelled by Celebrities. Who cant give a very good account of his first 10 years is very dangeruos. I also think the media have been very bias in their coverage of the elections so far.

    P.S. I also do not think he has given has told us what he really means by change. i NEED A PRESIDENT NOT A ROCK STAR

    Buyer Beware

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  • 62. At 12:05pm on 03 Nov 2008, dceilar wrote:

    #30 Potatolord

    As a European I'd say that you are misguided, and I wouldn't make any bold generalisations about the US in the same way that you do with all Europeans (and the Middle East).

    I'll remind you of a sartorial quote from Arthur Schopenhauer that every nation makes fun of the other for various reasons; and all of them are correct!

    Some criticism can be good, better then praise, you have to ignore the irrational and focus on the constructive and well meaning.

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  • 63. At 12:07pm on 03 Nov 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:

    I'd say Obama probably is more European in outlook than McCain, but only in the same way that the founding fathers were.

    Being a thoughtful intellectual is not a bad thing, neither is being a great orator.

    America's origins lie not in gung-ho militarism, fundamentalist religion or red in tooth and claw capitalism, but in the enlightentment values of the (mostly deist) very well read, very Europhile founding fathers. Men who shared correspondence with British and French intellectuals and absolutely accepted the ideas of the Enlightnment.

    I'd say that Obama is actually more of a real American than McCain.

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  • 64. At 12:12pm on 03 Nov 2008, super_critical wrote:

    Fundamentally, it comes down to how you see America.

    America is not Europe and it has done very well for itself not being so. It is un-American to provide universal health care and redistribute wealth. America is a nation which needs to identify winners and consequently losers, hail heroes to inspire the rest and wealth redistribution is portrayed as uniquely depressing.

    What I do find ironic for all the charges of socialism levelled at Obama is that it is the Republicans who have been talking up the working man, Joe the plumber, Tito the builder et al. with echos of Soviet Russia. Gagarin was hand picked to go into space because of all the candidates, he had the best profile; was a rural farmer's son. Ditto Sarah Palin. This election the Republicans are hailing the average working man as the American Hero.

    Obama may be 'European' but McCain has shown shades of the Evil Empire in his campaign.

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  • 65. At 12:32pm on 03 Nov 2008, AnnemarieInEdinburgh wrote:

    Patriotism can indeed be one of America's worst traits. I remember a couple of years ago speaking to a friend, an educated lady, registered nurse, about opinions regarding the Iraq war. Her comment was: "Oh, but we have to follow and support Bush. He's our President!!!" When I asked her if the logical consequence to her argument would be that "the Germans HAD to support Hitler, because he was their Leader", she had nothing to say.

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  • 66. At 12:44pm on 03 Nov 2008, glenbarrington wrote:

    Believe it or not, we in the USA just don't see Europe as being all that successful.

    When a European country's unemployment rolls hit the 5 - 8% range, people dance in the streets talking about good times. In the US, when unemployment hits 5%, a politician loses his job.

    I'm an avid amateur photographer, and on the international photo forums, European shooters are always complaining about high prices of equipment; yet they get angry aty us when we point out that the european tax structures, distribution channels, and social policies all work to keep prices high in Europe.

    Many of us see the price of a socialist democracy such as most European countries have as being just too high

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  • 67. At 12:53pm on 03 Nov 2008, U9238686 wrote:

    In the USA, the nation is what unites people; in Europe, it's what divides them, because ethnic lines and national borders do often diverge.

    --------------------

    USA is a country, Europe is a continent. Europe is divided because they are DIFFERENT COUNTRIES with different people and different rulers.

    The US haven't exactly made friends with other nation either. You just have position of being next to two submissive nations so pick fights in the middle east instead.

    World wars were caused by a single racist party who actually helped unite much of Europe to fight this cause. Since then Europe has been united and strong. Heard of the EU?

    European politics and debate are not divisive, they are opportunities to serve the nations on this continent to their individual needs. You don't need a passport to travel through much of Europe, the borders are light and Europeans mix freely throughout the continent. As an EU citizen you can work anywhere you want for as long as you want.

    How divisive is that??

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  • 68. At 12:53pm on 03 Nov 2008, whatbill wrote:

    Isn't this blog about the McCain campaign?

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  • 69. At 12:53pm on 03 Nov 2008, finbaar wrote:

    I am not biased against americans, I hate all foreigners equally.

    Just joking.

    However if Europeans are anti-americans as well as anti-american government, well just remember who elects the president etc. and that may give you a clue.

    Will Europe notice much difference between Barack and John, can't see it really as they are both so far right as to be almost unelectable in civilis.. oh I mean european countries.

    Anyway america good luck with holding the election and if you have similar problems to 2000 (hanging chads anyone) I'm sure Britain as the former colonial power will be glad to step in and sort it out (or do we only do that if the country is black and african?).

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  • 70. At 12:56pm on 03 Nov 2008, U9238686 wrote:

    His refusal to support the war in Iraq is also very European, remember the many demonstrations. For the average American their so called Allies failed them when their help was needed. Especially bearing in mind that America saved their bacons in WW11.

    -----------


    So you are comparing Bush's campaign in Irag to fighting the attempted Nazi whitewash of Europe?

    How very American you are, narrow-minded, xenophobic and terrified of difference or change.

    You are the reason America is falling apart my friend

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  • 71. At 12:56pm on 03 Nov 2008, iancheese wrote:

    Absolutely right!
    If Obama wins, America will be regarded as an African nation, right or wrong, but that is how the cookie crumbles!

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  • 72. At 12:57pm on 03 Nov 2008, SaintOne wrote:

    # 61

    "Since World War two Europe have taken a cowardly pacifist view "

    You ignorant SOB. You realy don't ahve a clue. Spouting all your nonsense about how great fighitng is. When was the last time America had a war on the scale of WWI and II on thier own land? You go and fight in a war and then you come back and tell us we are cowards for avoiding it.

    "His views on the israeli/Arab conflict is very similar to Europe as they are Pro Palestinian and at worst Anti-Semetic. His alleged association with Pro Palestinian Professors do not help either"

    Hes pro-peace, he isn't taking a side. He is thinking fo ways to resolve a crisis through diplomacy rather than drop a few bombs and kill people.

    People like you make me sick.

    Peace

    (unlikely given your opinions.)

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  • 73. At 1:14pm on 03 Nov 2008, JackMcMac wrote:

    I can understand the side of the McCain supporters.

    - Many feel pressured into voting for Obama due to the sheer amount of publicity he has bought with his vast campaign funds. From celebrities (like Brand at the MTV awards) to network television (like SNL), the message has almost been that if you don't vote for Obama you're either stupid, racist, or just a bad person. This has made people sympathetic towards McCain (remember the swing in popularity when Hilary began attacking Obama in the presidential primary election).

    -Many people feel as though Obama, while clearly intelligent and charismatic, is nothing more than the product of a gimick campaign initiated by the Democrats when Hilary (potentially the first female President) was running against Obama (potentially the first black President). McCain has real Presidential qualities, with a great deal of political experience to back him up. Some people feel as though people will vote for Obama simply because they'll want to tell their kids that they voted the first ever black President into office. While people have enjoyed talking about a new age of civil equality, where we might have a black president, now push comes to shove, they'll forget issues of race and simply vote for the man with the best credentials; McCain.

    -With media broadcasting the popularity of Obama constantly, many McCain supporters will see the importance of voting. Many Obama supporters will regard the election as a foregone conclusion, and may not bother to vote at all.

    -Obama has become careless in the final days, allowing comments that seem unpatriotic to slip out, prompting poignant propaganda such as the veteran video on youtube. This alone will turn a lot of people on his side against him, let alone the people who were sat on the fence.

    Personally, if I was American, I'd vote for McCain, as he clearly has America's interests at heart. He isn't a Bush replica, as Bush was implicated at times to be more interested in his own oil share businesses than America. McCain was in a PoW camp for 6 years, so it's clear protecting America is his prime goal. He has the kind of backbone America needs. If Obama gets elected, he will be found out very quickly. He hasn't got the experience needed to run the country, and once the gimick of having a black President rubs off, people will be asking themselves who exactly did they elect?

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  • 74. At 1:20pm on 03 Nov 2008, front_242 wrote:

    I think the point OldSouth raises is an important one. You need to keep in mind that the large strand of concern around "European" politics is something of a historical one for a lot of Americans.

    Before I get going I should be clear that as European, I like Obama, and if I lived in the US I'd be voting for him, but if you just dismiss the people like Old South as insular and/or ignorant then you're missing the point.

    In Europe we may recoil in liberal horror at the invasion of Iraq and all the other screw-ups that Amercia goes crashing into. But that's to avoid the question of why some Americans feel that being European isn't the way to go.

    A couple examples to consider;
    Eastern European Pogroms
    Two World (though mainly European) Wars

    We in Europe may have done the Blairite thing of drawing a line under these issues, but in some places they are still considered part of the historical narrative. The European approach is seen by some (both in America and Europe) as weak and ineffectual, leaving America to come in and do the dirty work - this may be a crude distortion of reality, but it has certain truths at its core.

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  • 75. At 1:24pm on 03 Nov 2008, potatolord wrote:

    @ 62 dceilar

    I know what you're intending to say, but a change of president will not change opinions of the USA around the world. Even a change of policy is unlikely to do that. Views are entrenched and will take a generation to change. Hoping that a shiny new President is going to change everything is rather *too* audacious.

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  • 76. At 1:29pm on 03 Nov 2008, TheDudeSupreme wrote:

    I'm on the left. Still, I don't believe patriotism is bad, and I don't buy it that Americans are all dumb, narro-minded and all other negative and, let's face it, racist (not against blacks but against Americans) comments that surface everywhere.

    Why does a man who promises a better social system, and less tax cuts for the rich, gets criticized for this. Why is "redistribution" evil? I mean, here in Europe, Robin Hood is a hero, not a villain. It's like someone said to the bulk of people: "I'm gonna give you a better life and more money" and the people shout back "we don't want any of that socialism!" Weird, from a European perspective.

    Why? I've 2 ideas here, centered around the fact that psychologically, I think the whole American Dream idea is more fundamental to Americans than Europe can imagine. And I think the emphasis is on "DREAM":

    (1) The whole capitalist system as it exists in the US, and the crucial thing that communism overlooked in the USSR, is that people give often prefer the IDEA/HOPE/OUTLOOK that they can improve their lives themselves (even if this is partly an illusion), rather than the CERTAINTY/REALITY that you may have an adequate living and cannot fall down, but there's not much possibility to go up either. It sounds foolish, but people like to have the illusion of control. Think they can move up the ladder if they climb enough.

    (2) This whole "the only way is up" illusion or idea rests on one crucial mechanism: people do not see themselves as being part of bulk who will benefit financially from Obama. Again psychologically, people prefer to shout against a measure that will actually benefit them, rather than admitting that they are not so well off as the should be (considering how hard they work). It's much more conforting to think of yourself as being one spurt higher up the ladder than you are.

    These 2 mechanisms, preferring hope for improvement to being ok but immobile, and thinking themselves higher up the ladder than they are, are the core to the American Dream. This can have two effect: either they see Obama's "redistribution" as a threat to this dream, or, I hope, they see that Obama is exactly the essence of this "thinking upward".

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  • 77. At 1:29pm on 03 Nov 2008, potatolord wrote:

    "• 27. At 09:19am on 03 Nov 2008, ficheye wrote:
    POTATOLORD, I'll bet that you burned insects with a magnifying glass when you were young. You're comments seem to be anarchistic in nature, serving no purpose except to make people angry.

    Obama will win, even with all his imperfections. People will see that they can relax with him at the helm; that is, if the specter of the confederacy would just go away. We need to move beyond hate. That is what is driving voters to say they fear him even when it means that a fundamentalist christian lunatic may become president. That is a hate that runs deep. It's not fear. Hate. And ignorance. Now go back to your potatoes."

    Then you would lose your bet.

    I think Obama probably will win, I just believe that all those (*people like you) who are expecting everything to be just peachy-keen if he wins are being over-optimistic and will, inevitably, be disappointed. The problems that America has around the world run deep and facile comments about the healing touch of the annointed one are well wide of the mark.

    It does have to be said that Palin was a very bad choice of running mate, but in view of the Republicans' antics over the last 8 years, it was probably the best choice for everyone who is not a Republican.

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  • 78. At 1:33pm on 03 Nov 2008, BSlight wrote:

    Whoever wins the White House (and the same is true of politicians all over the world) that person will say and promise to do everything to get elected. Once in Office, then there's a whole world of difference.

    Didn't everyone think Bill Clinton was going to do many of the things Obama is promising now in 1992? Look at what happened to his health care plans - Democrats (from his own party) tore the idea to shreds and the Republicans ended up taking Congress by a landslide. Clinton backed off the idea massively (as with other things such as homosexuals in the armed forces) and did everything he could to ensure he was re-elected. His second term then ended up being remembered for his affair and subsequent attempted impeachment. (As an aside, people ask how George W Bush could ever have won - look at Clinton's second term - even Gore distanced himself from him in the 2000 election!)

    In Britain, Tony Blair promised a new dawn. His legacy is now toxic, a lot of his main policies have never been implemented and his term in office is seen as something of a disappointment.

    Obama/McCain - does it matter who wins? Politics is always about saving yourself rather than caring about the electorate...

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  • 79. At 1:34pm on 03 Nov 2008, SteveNotts wrote:

    "As you can see, I do not want Obama -- I think he is a danger to us, our security, and therefore, a treat to Great Britain"

    I assume you mean 'threat', rather than treat. But actually, you've said what most Brits really feel. After 8 years of the most divisive, unilateralist, dangerous and incompetent President in history, anything that isn't 'more of the same' would indeed be a 'treat'.

    If, by some incomprehensible act of mass delusion, Mr Magoo is catapulted into the White House, much of Europe will lose what little faith it has left in the US after 8 years of Bush. People here already regard the US as having lost all claim to 'world leadership'. McCain won't get that back. Unless you really want to go it alone and have the rest of the world look elsewhere for its partners and friends, you need an outward-looking, vigorous, respectable, consensus-building intelligent man who looks forward to the 21st century, not back to the last.

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  • 80. At 1:36pm on 03 Nov 2008, singhdeol wrote:

    George Washngton was the first African-American president and John Adams was the second African-American president....every single human being is a homo sapien from Africa. There's no such thing as race. The scientists have proven this.

    Our species is not divided into subsections, for crying out loud!!!

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  • 81. At 1:42pm on 03 Nov 2008, QuietScribe wrote:

    I think it will definatly be a good thing if America as a whole becomes more world-knowlegable, and I think that Obama will do this. It is certainly needed when a friend in the US asked me a few years back if we had cars in Scotland! To this day, I am not entirely sure what she thought we used instead.. horses? Yeah, we all live in castles to! I guess prejudice about nationalities is deep running even now.

    I cannot see McCain doing anything much else other than struggling on for a while, as the rest of the world prays he doesn't croak it and leave Palin in charge.

    Obama seems to listen to people around him, and be a good judge of how to interact. He is travelled and seems to have functional grey matter.. what a change that would be!

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  • 82. At 1:46pm on 03 Nov 2008, VardaNova wrote:

    Look at UK political history. Thatcher became increasingly more right wing, prosecuted a war, fell from grace and left a gaping hole not for the far left to jump into but for a moerate, more central approach from New Labor. For several administrations the right could not regain power. They would have to be at least as extreme (clearly unpopular) or become more like the more centrist party (if so why change).

    I think we are seeing the beginnings of a simialr evolution in the USA. If Obama is as smart as we think he is he should seek the balance between free market economy and caring for those unable to care for themselves.

    There is a way that can accommodate the best of both worlds. Too often we see these things as an 'either/or' decision rather than a 'both/and' one.

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  • 83. At 1:54pm on 03 Nov 2008, mystjohn wrote:

    Great article. Those whose lives have centered around themselves (and have probably not traveled out of the United States very much -- if ever) cannot possibly understand what it is like to have a man as leader who can connect all of us globally by our commonality, and not separate us by any differences. The politics in this country (USA) have historically been to position the United States as THE power, THE force to be reckoned with, THE way to live free. I am for pride in your country, but it is time to accept that we are one of many, and some may actually not want to live like us, but prefer their own country and laws, and that is as it should be. The fear that Obama creates in some is fear of any change, and that loss of familiarity is a real nightmare for people. Kind of like an abused child who won't leave home because abuse is all it knows. Obama can raise this country to a new level. I hope to gawd there are enough of us willing to grow who give him a chance.

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  • 84. At 1:54pm on 03 Nov 2008, Parish_Spinster wrote:

    Mr McCain has some very good qualities.

    However, every Vice President has to be seen as a potential President (whatever his health situation - being VP to a young, healthy President didn't keep Lyndon Johnston out of the White House), and I've had concerns about his judgement from the moment he chose Sarah Palin to be a potential Commander in Chief of the most heavily armed army in the world.

    Both members of the team must be considered. and I feel that he's made a bad mistake in his choice of running mate.

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  • 85. At 1:58pm on 03 Nov 2008, Shackson wrote:

    Sorry kevnic but as a historian I am obliged to correct your poor grasp of post-war history.

    "(3) His reluctance to fight is also un-American and pro European. Since World War two Europe have taken a cowardly pacifist view and that irks most ordinary Americans."

    Actually after World War II a number of "old" Empires tried quite beligerantly to assert their authority in the world with wars in Africa and Asia - France in North Africa and Indo-China, Belgium in the Congo, Britain everywhere, etc. However they learnt the hard way that diminishing powers just bankrupt themselves futher by trying to overextend themselves in ultimately pointless wars. Wisdom derived from bitter experience is not "cowardly" but sensible. This is the same lesson the USA needs to take away from Iraq if it wants to remain a predominant economic power. I am also curious to know at what point the obvious lesson of Iraq - it was a huge scew-up and the "coward" Europeans were right all along will finally get through to die-hards like yourself.

    Secondly: "(5)His refusal to support the war in Iraq is also very European, remember the many demonstrations. For the average American their so called Allies failed them when their help was needed. Especially bearing in mind that America saved their bacons in World War II "

    I am not going to diminish the sacrifice made by US troops in WWII because I have too much respect for them and all Allied troops but keep in mind that there are always other ways to look at this and I am going to use your own earlier words here to bite you on the bum. It could be said that "couragous" Great Britian and France dared to confront Hitler in 1939 while the USA took the "coward" option of pacifism. They were only drawn into the war when directly attacked. Until 1941 arrived it was British and Empire troops who were doing all the fighting and dying (and thousands of Frenchman in 1940 and other Europeans.) However I don't not like that view of events any more than I like yours.

    As for saving their Bacon, I do think the USA did owe the French given they won the battle of Yorktown (yes American colonists also fought with them but more were fighting with the British during that particular battle) and basically helped give you Independence. See, again we can all give history a particualr spin but unlike you, I tend to get the basic facts correct.

    The basic fact is that when you say he is too "European" you are basically saying he is too intelligent for your liking and has a world-view that demonstrates more advanced thinking and wisdom (learnt by ex world powers in Europe the hard way) than has been demonstrated in the last 8 years.

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  • 86. At 1:58pm on 03 Nov 2008, singhdeol wrote:

    Why do white people in North America constantly forget that they are immigrants from Europe?

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  • 87. At 2:00pm on 03 Nov 2008, SpeleoKarst wrote:

    73 JackMcMac wrote:

    "McCain has real Presidential qualities, with a great deal of political experience to back him up."
    _____________

    The problems with McCain have been rehashed and repeated many times. My own views seem to be similar to those of many others (including Colin Powell and many ex-Republicans who defected to the Obama camp):

    When the campaign started, I thought McCain seemed a decent enough guy and, while certainly not my first choice, seemed light years better than Bush and I could have been o.k. with the idea of his being President. Then things started happening...

    1) "Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran"
    While at one level perhaps excusable as a tasteless incident, it lit some warning lights about his deeper thoughts and, even, what he considers to be a funny joke.

    2) The choice of Palin as VP
    Showed a complete lack of judgement in choosing someone so absolutely unfit for the job that it seemed a joke. It also showed that the "Maverick" wasn't the one making important decisions.

    3) His erraticism and barely suppressed deep anger. Not someone to keep an even keel and to respond coolly and rationally to situations and people.

    4) His obsession with "Victory":
    That may be his own psychological need. But what is "victory" in Iraq? The country needs to reach peace and stability. Military victory? Hemmm?

    5) The lack of any true content in his campaign. He is not proposing anything positive, apart from the aforementioned military stuff.

    6) The negativity of his campaign.
    That he allowed all the allegations, mistruths, untruths, non-truths to be constantly and repeatedly spouted against Obama (the list is nearly endless by now), shows his
    a) lack of moral fibre
    b) lack of control over the campaign
    c) lack of judgement

    If those are all "Presidential qualities" then I give up!


    P.S.:

    "-Obama has become careless in the final days, allowing comments that seem unpatriotic to slip out..."

    Please meaningfully define "patriotic"

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  • 88. At 2:01pm on 03 Nov 2008, 1edbog wrote:

    Too European? We all know Europe has a very large population of non-Europeans from many different "colored" people. When European is mentioned it isn't the indigenous European they are talking about but those that have emigrated to the different European countries after the war. Therefore, the colored. Europe is much more international then the United States.

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  • 89. At 2:01pm on 03 Nov 2008, mrthag wrote:

    I have been finding this recurring BBC theme very irritating. There are just as many people who are absolutely terrified of a McCain presidency. Here is a man who wants to "WIN" the war in Iraq, continue Guantanomo, dispense with the system of income - based proportional taxation, dismantle Medicare, privatize Social security, arm the citizenry (more), ban abortion and reduce funding for public education and infrastructure (even more). His running mate is a dim- witted bible-thumping, mean-spirited little girl who believes in the talking snake. Please. We will be an international laughing stock. Many many of us know it and are scared to death. Why not report on us?

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  • 90. At 2:04pm on 03 Nov 2008, rwbennett wrote:

    I don't undertand why you blieve others think Obama is too European? I would say very strange and foreign, but not British or European, maybe Russian or Asian? I also just don't believe these polls! We will also see after tomorrow, but it looks like a nightmare coming because of fake votes and faulty voting machines. I doubt if there will be a clear winner for weeks.

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  • 91. At 2:04pm on 03 Nov 2008, Mokujin wrote:

    The problem I have with McCain is just how contrived and manipulative he is. At several points during the campaign he has stated non truths as truths hoping that if it is said enough times that people will believe it to be true.
    I also wonder how long McCains team have sat on the fact that Obama's Aunt is living illegally in the US and then decided to play it like a strong hand at cards on the weekend before the election.
    Is this what America wants?? A President that plays hardball, manipulates the truth, and is in the pocket of big oil companies?? Again?? Americans went down in my estimations when they re-elected Bush. A president that plays on peoples fears rather than giving them hope?
    I just get the feeling that Obama wants to make a difference and is an honest independent free thinker that can change America for the better, not just domestically but on the international stage. I think he has the ability and the conscience to do whats right rather than continue to be a slave multi nationals.
    However as a European if McCain does get elected on Tuesday I will have to come to terms with the fact that there is two Americas, one is a thriving innovative free thinking western state and the other which is a third world backwater full of fatties, thickos, and religous nuts that happen to out number the rest.

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  • 92. At 2:08pm on 03 Nov 2008, U9238686 wrote:

    because that would require education

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  • 93. At 2:19pm on 03 Nov 2008, traxx4fun wrote:

    I find it very interesting to note that rabid Republicans I have known personally for years were also intiruged by Obama early on. They are confused now. Likewise previously rabid Democrats whom I presumed would be voting for Obama are also now talking as if they won't. They don't like his unproven status and "many misleading comments".

    The bottom line is that all party "issues" begin to sound eerily familiar after a life time of elections: one party denounces the other's stratetigies to improve X. In the end, it is not the president or the party that produces the laws that govern spending during the president's tenure, it is the combined legislative bodies that do that.

    For instance, the current economic crisis was engineered during previous presidencies from senate and house approved laws to allow the mortgage companies to disregard income as a statutory limitation for a mortgage. Yes, the final fall-out happened during GW's tenure, but that was an inherited issue. It was during many previous presidencies that the reliance on oil was underscored over and over again rather than actively pursuing alternative energy sources, by passing laws that would require those alternatives rather than leaving an ambiguous suggestion in place. Remember the release of the US hostages in Iran? It was Carter's presidency that engineered that release - but it was agonising to watch the inauguration of Reagan and to know that the release would not happen while Carter was still president.

    Presidents inherit long planned laws and spending; anything Obama's presidency would sign into law would potentially take several years at a minimum to have an impact on the average Joe.

    Every campaign brings out the worst and the best of a nation; like a major disaster. Only time will tell if the voters' dreams will be realised.

    It is always distressing to hear the rhetoric and the mud slinging; the media love it. Unfortunately too many rely on media reports when voting.

    There appears to be no such thing as an informed voter making an intelligently derived informed decision as too much is biased from day one in what we read and hear. I believe that people vote from their gut reactions to each candidate.

    This US presidential election is important and may well change the face of US politics. But the real law-makers - some of whose elections are woefully under reported and remain outside the mainstream - are the folks who will be forming and writing the laws that the US will live under for many years. It is sad to see the hype of the presidential circus overwhelming those vital campaigns and elections.... where the meat of the matter really lies.

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  • 94. At 2:23pm on 03 Nov 2008, mayam46 wrote:

    Old South Says, Obama's resume is thin Let us apply the same thing to Palin, the running mate of McCain. McCain is an old man and as 'Fay' says Palin is only a heart beat from Presidency. What credentials does she have? Wouldn't it be a nightmare for US if she becomes the President by deafault. At least Obama has Joe Biden, a seasoned politician and well versed in international relations.
    750 Billion dollar bail out? Is it a Capitalist Socialism? Why not share the wealth with the poor and sick? What is so wrong with this humane attitude. Why make the rich, richer and hope they will help the poor? From Margaret Thatcher, to Reaqan and to Bush it has not worked.
    People like old South will never ever vote for an African American and they cannot just come out and say that and they use nonsensical excuses.
    Europeans are worldly. Old South probably has never left his county in his/her life. For him/her America is the world. As an 'European' Obama will defintely make the US a better place for everyone.

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  • 95. At 2:26pm on 03 Nov 2008, rwbennett wrote:

    #80

    What "science" says this? We all have to put in our "race" on any form we turn in.
    Washington and Adams were obviously both British. MAYBE, it's still only a theory, 200,000 or more years ago mankind may have all come out of African continient first, but they were sure not all the same even then. I would just love to see you preach this stuff in downtown Detroit or many other American cities, the people there would rip you up! unless your black yourself? I still don't believe they would believe you. 98% of blacks say they are going to vote for Obama, now what does this say about race?

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  • 96. At 2:32pm on 03 Nov 2008, stickmail wrote:

    Wow kevnic, what a hideous person you are.

    I think its quite telling that you referred to WWII as WW11 (world war eleven), if people with attitudes like yours are allowed into power, that's probably where we will end up.

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  • 97. At 2:37pm on 03 Nov 2008, trekker308 wrote:

    glenbarrington wrote

    "Many of us see the price of a socialist democracy such as most European countries have as being just too high"

    Yes, the price is indeed rather higher than US citizens have traditionally paid, but I think you'll find that thinkers in US economic policies are currently suffering quite a few headaches trying to resolve the results of that particular problem - and I wouldn't be surprised if the US ends up having to pay a higher (and more realistic) price to maintain the freedoms they hold so dear.

    IF the US wants to be considered as a world leader in the future Obama has to be your man, otherwise the rest of us citizens of the global village will tire of having the US as an immature and slightly dangerous pretender to that throne.

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  • 98. At 2:41pm on 03 Nov 2008, CarolineRobin wrote:

    It amazes me when people who don't live in America say if John McCain is elected tomorrow then Americans will get what they deserve. They are forgetting about the rest of Americans who are more progressive and are concerned about foreign relations and foreign policy. IF, and a big IF, John McCain became president, a huge number of dissatisfied Americans will be deeply disappointed. Let's remember please that the entire American Nation does NOT stand faithfully behind Republicans. Yes, there are many Americans who live fearfully, threatened by "change"... we've had everything so safe for so long that we've got ourselves into a rut with a broken gov't, in my opinion. I believe most people here don't even have their eyes open and are driven more by fear of anything unknown or anything different. I am a "west-coaster" living in the midwest. I never would have believed the ignorance, racism or "fearism" that exists in the midwest if I hadn't seen it myself. But remember that group is only a segment of the population. We do NOT deserve a McCain presidency, we deserve much better than that!

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  • 99. At 2:44pm on 03 Nov 2008, Forcuera wrote:

    I honestly feel that Americans need to be a little more open minded? what is wrong with being european?( the european economy is doing better than the American economy as of now.) so maybe America need to adopt some of the European policies to help the economy. Why the strong insistence that America has to be different from Europe?
    To grow is to learn from others.

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  • 100. At 2:47pm on 03 Nov 2008, floridaRoberto62 wrote:

    The USA has the weakness in patriotism since it was never a real country to begin with.

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  • 101. At 2:48pm on 03 Nov 2008, mrthag wrote:

    to mokujin - My point exactly. You can't have it both ways. If Obama wins the fatties and thickos will have been outnumbered.

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  • 102. At 2:49pm on 03 Nov 2008, pustelnik wrote:

    The article hits the mark. The McCain-Palin campaign views anyone who is urban, educated, Catholic or a union supporter as "not a real American". This means that they don't consider a majority of voters to be real Americans, and they will lose the election. I hope that their supporters will adjust after the election, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

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  • 103. At 2:57pm on 03 Nov 2008, rodonn wrote:

    One of the things that irritates me about American political 'thought'... the bandying about of the words 'Socialist', 'Communist', and 'Marxist' about people with politics well to the right of the Thatcher Govt.

    One of the problems with the 'American abroad' is the convenient single packaging of loud arrogance and ignorance (having said that, UK 'culture' is pretty much the same these days).

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  • 104. At 2:58pm on 03 Nov 2008, spectacularjonesy55 wrote:

    "Believe it or not, we in the USA just don't see Europe as being all that successful.

    When a European country's unemployment rolls hit the 5 - 8% range, people dance in the streets talking about good times. In the US, when unemployment hits 5%, a politician loses his job."

    Actually unemployment in the USA is currently 6.1%, a figure which is higher than in 14 of the 27 EU member states as well as Switzerland and Norway.

    And although the US is a fine country overall, we don't neccesarily see it as being successful in everything either. Like when we see that the US spends nearly 3 times as much per head on healthcare as the UK and more than double what France, Germany and other European countries spend and yet life expectancy, infant mortality and premature deaths are amongst the worst in the developed world.

    Or when we see that there are over 12,000 murders a year in the US (population 300 million) compared to 7,000 in the European Union (population 455 million)

    Or when we see that median incomes have barely changed in real terms since the 1970s. Almost all benefits have accrued to the top 20% of earners.

    Or when we see that the average American only gets two weeks paid holiday per year and works far longer hours than the average European.

    Or when we see that the very thing that made the USA famous, social mobility, is now worse than in most other developed countries (along with the UK and Italy) according to a recent OECD report. Parental income is now a very reliable guide to the income of their children in the US, inherited money can buy success more easily than talent can achieve it.

    I'd rather have to pay a bit extra for some camera equipment if it means a more just society, in any case I could always buy off E-bay USA if it's that much cheaper!!

    Europe isn't perfect by any means, I won't even say that it is better but it is a credible alternative if people are looking for a way to model a society. The US model is just one model of freedom, prosperity and progress, not THE model.

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  • 105. At 3:15pm on 03 Nov 2008, Desertann wrote:

    Count me in as someone who considers Obama too "European." He reminds me too much of Tony Blair, and we have seen what a mess Blair turned out to be. Fortunately, we only have to wait 4 years to make a change, and the Republicans will be ready.

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  • 106. At 3:17pm on 03 Nov 2008, StephenDerry wrote:

    I think it is becoming increasingly impossible to generalise about Americans, because basically there are two completely different Americas.

    On the one side you have liberal America, on the coasts and in the cities, looking out to the world. These people are patriotic, but not stupidly so, and consist of a mix of religions, ethnic groups, sexualities and alternative lifestyle choices, all of which are tolerantly accepted by the majority. They mostly believe in God (or a god) but essentially lead secular lives. Most of these people will vote Democrat, but there are large Republican-favouring demographics within the mix.

    On the other side (or rather, in the middle) you have conservative America (what Palin unwisely termed "Real America") in the small towns and rural areas, people who are absurdly patriotic and sensitive to any perceived slight on their country or their flag. They are basically uniformly white, uniformly Christian and allow scriptural morality to define their outlook on life. And they love their guns. They will universally vote Republican.

    I think the difference between Europe and liberal America, in fact the world and liberal America is far smaller than the gap between liberal America and conservative America. Obama is a product of liberal America, and fits in fine there, the people who are concerned at his "differentness" are the people of conservative America.

    I have no idea how the numbers stack up against each other, I suspect there are more people in liberal America, but conservative America pulls its weight in the electoral college because of state distribution. There is a very balanced equilibrium there which the Founding Fathers would no doubt be very proud of.

    However I still cannot help feeling that the ultra-patriotic Christian fundamentalists of the south and mid-west are increasingly out of step with the rest of America and the rest of the world.

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  • 107. At 3:23pm on 03 Nov 2008, Marcusbailius wrote:

    Being "European" in outlook might just be a good thing, if it means that rather than insisting that the President can only talk to the USA's friends and allies, and the enemies cannot be negotiated with until they agree with the USA's views, that in fac t the President would be well advised to talk to everybody. Especially and emphatically, to the apparent enemies. As much and as often as possible.

    "Jaw-jaw is better than war-war." Churchill.

    "Guess who's coming to dinner." Chekov...

    However, he's not European; he is his own man, as all candidates should be. Whether he will be a good President is down to history to judge, if he is elected. That will also depend on things like whether he can contain the greed and negligence of a significant subset of investment bankers. All taxpayers worldwide, are currently lending enormous sums to the idiot banks right now, and that little problem did happen to start in the USA.

    I have to say I find the conspiracy theories around Obama not having been born in America, (a) highly amusing and (b) extremely telling. People must be getting desperate.

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  • 108. At 3:28pm on 03 Nov 2008, mlehliwm wrote:

    "Regarding Mr. McCain's physical health, his increasingly distant history of cancer and, obviously, his age, are appropriate topics for discussion. However, Mr. McCain, in an effort to dispel concerns about his health, allowed a cross-section of reporters to review more than 1,000 pages of his medical records, while the much younger Mr. Obama, apparently, and to the apparent satisfaction of the popular media, released only a brief medical statement regarding his health."

    Yeah, McCain allowed a cross-section of (three) reporters (not doctors) ONE HOUR to look over the thousands of documents and not to make any copies. What a bunch of bull. Neither candidate has delivered here, and making that point makes me question your judgment.

    As to the comments that McCain has been unfairly scrutinized (by the media) with respect to Obama - again, Bull. He has been scrutinized every step of the way for the past 21 months. McCain has been on the scene since the spring of this year. Moreover, I don't know what media you are watching but the one here in America has been pretty evenly divided between the two - with EVERY major news network choosing a side and reporting with a bias - but why would anyone base such an important decision on how fairly one is treated by a bunch of journalist hacks?

    Sadly it is a concern because Americans make it a POINT to be uninformed. It's as if our patriotism requires us to be ignorant - otherwise appear like a pretentious patsy sissy whiny know-it-all.

    As to "Better the devil you know" - The "Devil I knew" stood up for what he believed in - even if it was political suicide ("surge" anyone?). Told the truth, even to his own detriment; and really was a "Maverick" (not that a flagrant and blatant disregard to social norms is a common trait found it presidents; as it is "mavericks") - meaning he shot from the hip - made quick decisions today - right or wrong - but at least he stuck by them. Who is is this person I speak of, because in the past 6 months - it certainly hasn't been John McCain. Where's the STRAIGHT TALK EXPRESS?

    The devil I know is the one who has been prodded for the past two years by the American people. The one who has triumphed over every challenge and beat the best that this country has to offer - in terms of bigotry, political clout, economic power, everything. Also the one with the consistency in deliberation, attention to detail, and eloquent use of political clout when faced with adversity.

    C'mon his biggest "gaffe" has been a minor irritation with some paparazzi when he was trying to spend ONE holiday with his daughter.

    Barack Obama earned his candidacy. John McCain got his by default.

    "Spread the Wealth Around" - I'm not even going to tackle this one because that audience is too stupid to use the internet and too ignorant to look for news at the BBC.

    "The bottom line is that all party "issues" begin to sound eerily familiar after a life time of elections: one party denounces the others' strategies to improve X. In the end, it is not the president or the party that produces the laws that govern spending during the president's tenure, it is the combined legislative bodies that do that."

    Exactly.

    Wake up America, I refuse to run my life on Fear. If we take both candidates at face value - which is impossible in this country but should be necessary - you have one side talking about "change and hope" - but backs it up with concrete examples about real actions which will affect real people - politics aside, that is someone working for you - even if your philosophy is different. Perfect? No, but Effective.

    The other side is campaigning on "too dangerous" and "who is this guy?" and "Socialist, Terrorist, Marxist" because they have absolutely nothing to go on - mostly cause McCain admittedly hasn't a clue how to fix the economy. (Fire Cox anyone? Oh wait, did i say "fire"? I meant ask him to resign.) His selling points? Screwing around with IRA's, and stopping any more unfair cellphone taxes. Great John, thanks a lot - but you could have done that in the Senate. After all, you've had 30 years. This guy is going to leave our future in the hands of Goldman Sachs - cause he's got bigger fish to fry - in Russia.

    Sounds alot like what we have now. Governance by proxy. If you ask me, Petreus and and Paulson share the presidency of the USA right now.

    What happens if "Sarah the Sportscaster" usurps the throne? Well, "Joe the Plumber" just got drafted to fight God's war. And there's no more books in the library. And we just set women back 50 years.

    I wouldn't trust that chick to show me how to use my seat cushion as a flotation device.

    Barack might be a single term senator, but at least he has fought diligently to get to where he is today. He has demonstrated backbone, resiliency, and forbearance in achieving this nomination and is doing it for all the right reasons. John McCain's entire life has been handed to him on a silver platter. From his time in the Navy to leaving his first wife for Budweiser to this presidential bid. Do you think he would trade those 5 pow years - given the opportunity? No way - cause its the only thing he has. If you look at it from a "Capitalist" investment perspective - he got the best ROI of anyone in American History.

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  • 109. At 3:33pm on 03 Nov 2008, mai_no_ken wrote:

    As an American citizen (I am not a Democrat, and I had voted Republican in the past) that grew up overseas, in my opinion, that Obamas and Carters are what United States needed. I know what happened during the Iran Hostage Crisis, I still regard Carter had taken the best approach what he could have done at that time. I have very high regard to Carter's vision.

    A lot of people have to remember, who voted Carter out of office, who voted George W Bush into office: the voters. The voters that do not read enough critical newspaper and magazine editorials, voters that do not critically and independently analyze what is going on, voters do not attempt to get hold the best "intel" (the military slang). They vote passionately, they do not give a blink and analysis to what the Bush tax cut plans really mean nor the understand the implication of claiming "being the state closest to Russia qualifies as foreign affairs experience."

    I am not a fully Bush basher: I really like how Bush handled Africa, I agree with Bush administration that opening the oil reserve in Alaska is of good strategic interest to USA (I am aware of the environmental damage that may occur). But does voters (let say the majority of Democratic voters) aware of what Bush had done for Africa, and the connection between oil and US handling of Middle East policy -- which decades of mismanagement had brought us 9/11 (does that ring the bell how Carter handled the Iran Hostage Crisis)?

    I like Joe the Plumber dream, but not the way Joe the Plumber analyze facts. But then the great Brit Prime Minster Churchill once said:

    "The biggest argument against democracy is a three minute discussion with the average voter."

    I question does voters... when making their choice really know what they are getting into: that is a bipartisan statement. It has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative.

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  • 110. At 3:33pm on 03 Nov 2008, denniscomment wrote:

    I find the argument compelling that Obama may appear to many Americans as a person too different to identify with and therefore be their president. I would hesitate, however, to think that this was because he is "too European". From my European perspective, the most important reason to favour John McCain would be that he is by far more likely to reach out to Europe and renew the Transatlantic relationship. For Obama, Europe is one player amongst others.
    Obama transcends the cliché of "European" or "American", maybe he is "too Cosmopolitan" for a country that has land borders only with two other countries.
    Gerhard, Berlin

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  • 111. At 3:42pm on 03 Nov 2008, dave_h wrote:

    I live in America but can't vote since I'm not a citizen. My assessment of the candidates is quite a bit different to most though. Firstly, I think neither candidate is actually very good. But on balance, if I could vote, I would vote for Obama, despite being a Tory supporter in the UK, and believing in small government.

    Why don't I like the candidates. Obama seems to me to be very like Tony Blair. All talk, but no substance. Tony could woo the public like no other, and was the master of spin, but his policies wrecked the country. A war that ruined our standing in the world. Economic policies that have meant Britain is the worst placed of all G7 countries (other than America) to weather the financial storm. And a bloated inefficient government. I have a nasty suspicion Obama will be the same. McCain on the other hand is just downright dangerous. He seems the most likely person to talk America into another damaging war if elected, and with McCain in charge, Al Qaeda recruiting will continue to climb, putting America and Europe at risk of further terrorist attrocities. Furthermore, at his age and health, the likelihood of him dying in office and being replaced by a lunatic like Palin is just too high.

    Unfortunately, neither party seems to have a palatable position. The Republicans used to stand for small government, but Bush changed all that. Now the Republicans just stand for whatever the right wing Christians tell them to. The Democrats are tax and spend, which I loath, but just seem less dangerous.

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  • 112. At 3:42pm on 03 Nov 2008, moderate_observer wrote:

    its ironic an african american can be seen as americans as being too european.


    many understood what Michelle Obama was saying because they look at the facts about what their country does around the world and draws conclusion that although there is much to be proud of, there is also many things that are very questionable and embarassing. (eg. guantanamo,latin american contras )


    For people like that especially those who have been a member of a group who wasnt always in the favour of the US government historically (africans, latinos, asians... some europeans, arab-americans, jews,native americans) there will always be that conflict in their heart that although they love their country the country has not always loved them.


    think about the tuskegee airmen how they must have felt fighting for their country in world war 2, or any muslim american in the military today or a japanese american during WW2.


    The others who will never understand where someone like Michelle Obama is coming from, is the ones that draw their opinions of US foreign relations from Chuck Norris movies and other holywood creations( I believed the US won the vietnam war because of hollywood, studying history debunked that myth).

    To them their country is what others tell them the country is, and perhaps never cared to find out anything more, and they may have never felt rejected by their country as well because many live in insulated pockets of the nation where their beliefs and customs are hardly ever challenged.

    SO they would never understand what Michelle Obama may have felt.

    For someone like Michelle Obama, being an african american woman, Im sure she has always had the question in he rmind 'will they accept me for me or will they judge me by my skin and gender' .

    there is also this underlying belief by some that to question your country's actions and to not be beaming with pride at all times is unpatriotic and disqualifies you from being a true american. They do not understand that a country cna grow only if people ask questions and challenge the norm.

    There is a lot to be proud of, the United States is a one of a kind nation, but there is also somethings that can make you feel a sense of doubt as well.









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  • 113. At 3:51pm on 03 Nov 2008, U9238686 wrote:

    Blair a mess?

    Try living under Thatcher and Major and you'll see that Brits are better of than they were!

    The economy is Browns fault as Treasurer.

    American definition od "european"? Forward thinking, educated, cultured, world knowledged, more open minded, willing to embrace change and freedom of movement.

    I take that as a compliment if I was Obama.

    I urge Americans to vote Obama and leave the backward thinking, racist, xenophobic and quite simpy uneducated members of your contry behind to wallow in the mess they have created

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  • 114. At 3:54pm on 03 Nov 2008, TazerFloyd wrote:

    I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't McCain born in Panama??

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  • 115. At 3:55pm on 03 Nov 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Those who have characterized patriotism as an American "flaw" and one its "worst traits" are confusing patriotism with jingoism.

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  • 116. At 4:04pm on 03 Nov 2008, LouLilburne wrote:

    I quote

    "His refusal to support the war in Iraq is also very European, remember the many demonstrations. For the average American their so called Allies failed them when their help was needed. Especially bearing in mind that America saved their bacons in WW11"

    If you are going to quote history please look a little further back, France fought for America against England in the War of Independance before plunging into thier own revolution, they saved your bacon first my friend! The US is showing behavioural traits only seen before in Nazi Germany, they are policing the world. What is so scary about change? What is wrong with questioning your government? The comments about what Michelle Obama said astound me, the whole point of democracy is that we as the people are able to question the government and the way we are ruled, if we can no longer question we maight as well live in a dictatorship or an absolute monarchy. What is wrong with socialism, the economic system presently in place does not work, you are in recession. Lets have change, perhaps change in the US will bring about better things for us all. Try something new, stop living in the past and embrace the future. What would it matter if Obama is an immigrant? The USA is build out of immigrants, the white American is the immigrant.

    By the way it is highly amusing and very revealing that this blog is meant to be about McCain and everyone is talking about Obama! Just shows how little substance McCain actually has.

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  • 117. At 4:06pm on 03 Nov 2008, theslawman wrote:

    I am over here and I don't know how anyone can even consider voting for McCain. Over the past 8 years we've had the twin towers destroyed, we're in 2 wars, we lost over 2,000 citizens to a hurricane due the the pathetic aid response and the economy is the worst it's been since 1929.

    I appreciate people's concern about the "unknown" with Barrack but at what point do people decide the unknown has to be better? Unemployment is spiraling out of control, heating fuel and gas prices are twice what they were 2 years ago and at the same time, companies like Exxon Mobile are posting the largest profits in corporate history, even while they are still receiving tax breaks from years ago when they were struggling.

    Why is it that you Euros understand how easy a decision this is but so many people here don't?

    Indeed, even those with higher incomes ($250,000+/year) have seen their value reduced by 40% with the losses on Wall Street.

    McCain is old and out of touch with this country. How can one of the leaders of the free world not know how to use email??? He's so out of touch that he thinks we're so stupid, we'd vote for him because he has a good looking "hockey-mom" as his running mate?

    She's supposed to know what it's like to be struggling and raising a family in $150,000 worth of clothing? Yes, she should dress for the role, but if she does, you can't portray her as an average American, struggling to pay bills. And let's face it, should America be run by an "average" American? Shouldn't we be led by someone who is well-educated and considered an intellectual?

    For 8 years, Republicans have raped this country and enabled the greatest corporate scandals in our country's history. Maybe the Democrats won't be much better in the end but at this point, how can anyone over here not be ready to try something new? The bottom line is we need a change over here. We need it. The world needs it.

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  • 118. At 4:10pm on 03 Nov 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    singhdeol (#80), you are absolutely correct about race being a fiction from a scientific point of view, but you are incorrect in that race definitely exists as a social phenomenon. Unfortunately, many people do treat others differently based on their perception of "race."

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  • 119. At 4:13pm on 03 Nov 2008, middlecroony wrote:

    #18 potatolord
    I don't think the rest of the world hates us, I think they can only make assumptions by what the media shows them and by our actions. Voices like yours have been heard loud and clear for the past eight years, and now fortunately the tide is turning. I've dated an Aussie for ten years and it has been a wonderful learning experience. The way he views things has opened my mind up dramatically. When I went over and met his family three years ago, his sisters were relieved to hear that I did not believe in anything G. Bush was doing. I told them there are many many more who think this way.
    It is the fault of myself and others like me for sitting idely by while we were steamrolled by the Bush administation. I think people in London protested more against G.B that his own countrymen, so what signal are the Europeans and the world supposed to get.
    I hope for Obama, because we are more global now, and he his more in tune(hip) with that. The youth of the world are our future, not just here and Europe, but what about all the Irainian youth (most of the population of Iran) that don't believe in thier dictator, but cannot speak. Should we alienate the many to get to a few? Diplomacy first. I don't believe the world could ever be a 100% peaceful place, but thinking more three dimensional could only help.

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  • 120. At 4:14pm on 03 Nov 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    TazerFloyd (#114), yes, John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone.

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  • 121. At 4:14pm on 03 Nov 2008, U9238686 wrote:

    American radical patriotism is exactly the reason the US is being left further behind and becoming mire and more singled out as the country of hatred for the nations of the world.

    I love Americans, many are my friends, but you have to realise that this stupid ungiving patriotism is damaging you.

    Working with other nations doesn't mean you have to question yourself as an American.

    No more us Vs them rubbish please!!

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  • 122. At 4:16pm on 03 Nov 2008, chazzacant wrote:

    Most of us Europeans can distinguish between the Americans we like and the Americans we don't like, and between the US governments we like and those we don't.

    It seems that some Americans think Europe is unpleasantly multicultural, too generous to the poor and the sick, too ungenerous to the very rich, and too humane to those who occasionally fall from grace (my God, we even let felons vote once they have served their sentences!).

    Given that the founding fathers were a bunch of liberal gentlemen who would not have been out of place in the enlightened salons of Europe (even if some of them did own slaves), I am wondering how it is that so many Americans now view Europe with such deep suspicion.

    I suspect that much of it has to do with the self-righteous mindset of people who would rather not think about the way in which the land was brutally stolen from its pre-European inhabitants or how much its prosperity depends upon the enslavement of Africans.

    It is that self-righteousness and unforgiving inhumanity of many Americans that perplexes most Europeans. Obama doesn't appear 'European' to me, but he does seem to be someone to whom Europeans might listen with respect rather than the hoots of derision that have often greeted the present incumbent of the Presidency.

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  • 123. At 4:21pm on 03 Nov 2008, kburns_ireland wrote:

    If Americans really feel Obama is too 'European', I can only assume it's because they don't know what 'Europeans' are like, because I don't think our politicans are remotely like Barack Obama.

    (1) Charismatic politicians are *definately* an American trademark. Europeans have an irriting way of doing politics which means only career politicians get to the top. Obama is a classic American leader in that regard.

    (2) He's too conservative for Liberal Europe. If he where European, he'd be in a conservative party.

    (3) He's more "American" than John McCain. What is the classic idea of America if not a melting pot of immigrants embracing a new culture? Is John McCain more American just because he's white? Europe is overwhelmingly caucasian, and ethnic minority politicians havn't a hope-in-hell of reaching the top of our politics.

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  • 124. At 4:21pm on 03 Nov 2008, bobbiej wrote:

    I can not believe my own country at times..is the George Bush America the one that everyone feels comfortable with? A country that has shamed itself and brought on anger from its friends as well as its foes? The policies of the government for the last eight years made it impossible at times for me to want to identify with my own good country. I went to Germany, and England four days after the start of the Iraq war and I was plainly ashamed at this country.
    I heard Palin on an interview two days ago say that one of the things she and John McCain would do is to win both these wars, the ones with Iraq and Iran. Was it a gaffe? Or is she just an airhead? Or have there been so many discussions about getting into a war with Iran that it pops easily out of her head?! We can not afford to have a McCain/Palin presidency! We are already at the bottom of the barrel after the Bush administration!

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  • 125. At 4:33pm on 03 Nov 2008, Elettaria wrote:

    Obama only looks European/left-wing/socialist etc. in comparison to the political norm in America. In the UK he'd be considered relatively right-wing, and he's certainly not a socialist. If he were running for Prime Minister of the UK with his current policies, I wouldn't vote for him. In America, however, he appears as a saviour in contrast to the worrying swing towards the right that has been occurring.

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  • 126. At 4:33pm on 03 Nov 2008, playunextyear wrote:

    Am I the first to note here that McCain's campaign trail tomorrow - election day - takes him through Roswell, NM?

    Is he trying to fix up an exit strategy?

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  • 127. At 4:36pm on 03 Nov 2008, CanadianPeg wrote:

    As a Canadian who has lived in Europe and is now living in California, I am endlessly fascinated by how americans see themselves and thier place in the world. Despite the disasterous administration of the last eight years which has ushered in a plummeting economy, a tarnished reputation abroad, increasing poverty and crime rates, and an embarrassing education and healthcare record, unquestioned patriotism is still the order of the day for many Americans. To them, America is still the land of promise and freedom that it was in the earlier part of the last century. And maybe it still is, compared to, say, a developing nation. But is that good enough?

    Take thier concept of freedom, for example. Many Americans still believe this to be the land of the free. Yet, they are terrified of being labelled unpatriotic and barely raised a murmer over the inept and downright criminal activities of the bush administration - where impeachment should have been the logical outcome. This idea of democracy is laughable when you consider how more "socialist" countries like France regularly take loudly to the streets to demand accountability of their government.

    Its true, this is a land where you are free. If you are in the richest 1%, you are free to make government your own personal puppet. Otherwise, you are free to be desperately poor in a country drowing in riches. You are free to not recieve adequate health care or to go bankrupt trying, free to get inadequate education for your children depending upon if you live in a poor neighbourhood or not. You are not free, however, to question the your leadership without being labelled as "unpatriotic" (consider the unfortunate public reaction to the Dixie Chicks off-the-cuff comment).

    There seems to be a huge disconnect between the American dream and the American reality. Obama is drastically different. Because he is drastically different he may hold the best chance to pull this country back from the precipace. True, his administration could fail. But I (outsider as I am) see this as a place that has little other choice. Continue to live in a dream and plummet further - or reach for that branch of hope that truly "new" leadership offers....

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  • 128. At 4:38pm on 03 Nov 2008, Vivirafi wrote:

    I have one scenario which worries me. We see a resurgent Russia and I think it likely that whoever gets elected President will be 'tested' by Russia. McCain I do not worry about in this respect but from what I see of Obama I see nothing that indicates that he is shrewd and tough enough to deal with Russia.

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  • 129. At 4:40pm on 03 Nov 2008, playunextyear wrote:

    #117 theslawman:

    'And let's face it, should America be run by an "average" American? Shouldn't we be led by someone who is well-educated and considered an intellectual?'

    You're making the dangerous assumption that "average" GW Bush was in fact leading the country in the last 8 years, and that "average" Sarah Palin would - in the event of McCain doing a Pope John Paul I and exiting this life after a month or so - lead the country to 2012.

    Isn't it just as likely that the true regent of the USA was, is, and would continue to be Dick Cheney, the man who, by the evening of 11th September 2001, had twice as many secret servicemen guarding him as GWB?

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  • 130. At 4:48pm on 03 Nov 2008, EricBE wrote:

    A BBC Journalist can't place context?..guess he was ganging around the McCain/Palin crowd too long or he already had that bias.

    What the worn out phrase leaves out in Republican adds is: "when she said that for the first time in her adult life "I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback."

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  • 131. At 4:56pm on 03 Nov 2008, ethanglong wrote:

    Too European??? I would think that I have a fairly good understanding of what it is to be "American" since I was born here and have lived in the States for all 22 years of my life. By too European, I believe what all of these McCain supporters are trying to say is that Obama wants to reduce the massive wealth disparity in our country, provide affordable health care to all, focus on environmentally sustainable energy, and create a foreign policy that doesn't advocate preemptively invading countries and alienating all of the nations that don't blindly support us. If it is considered "too European" to support these ideas, and believing that such ideas are crucial to the health of our nation is not "American," then I suppose that I'm just as "European" as Barack Obama.

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  • 132. At 5:02pm on 03 Nov 2008, stavrosthesheep wrote:

    A very lazy article. What was the editorial brief - "knock out 500 words by midnight, anything you like, but just fill some blogspace on the web-site and dress it up as analysis"?

    So what is this "European" Obama like? Would he be weeping in the streets of Vienna, like so many Austrians at the death of Jörg Haider; would be be applauding Dutch MP, Geert Wilders', anti-Muslim film "Fitna", will he be standing in the Bernabeu stadium making monkey noises at black players with the Spanish fans or running with the Hell's Angels of Copenhagen? The notion that Europe is an oasis of expresso-sipping, polyglot liberal-arts professors is about as rooted as the notion that all Americans are obese neanderthals who believe that dinosaurs went steerage on the Ark.

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  • 133. At 5:19pm on 03 Nov 2008, cmarmar wrote:

    Obama's outlook on how our government should be run may be in fact have 'European' elements. But, did it ever occur to you that these americans you spoke to are so desperate to discredit a black candidate that they will find any reason to do so?

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  • 134. At 5:21pm on 03 Nov 2008, Ashill wrote:

    What a fascinating article and comments! Thanks everyone.

    #61 Kevnic

    I am a Brit in the UK, but if Obama's views really are as you set out in your points 1 to 7 then please can we have him over here to be our Prime Minister. What a great guy!

    I was asking myself the other day, if I wished to see a UK flag (the Union Flag or Union Jack as it is known here) where would I go to see one on display? I could not think of anywhere. That suits me just fine. But if media coverage is correct you can see the US flag on display in the USA in schools, outside government buildings, in US courts, . . . all over the place. Do US citizens need to be reminded all the time what country they are in? Good grief!!

    The US sort of patriotism is unhealthy in my view.

    That having been said, I am proud of the UK's tolerance and diversity and our democratic systems and stability. So I am proud of my country, but I don't wish to see our armed forces in action (except on behalf of the UN, etc) overseas and I regret our involvement is the military adventures of the US.

    I don't want to think of our Prime Minster as "Commander in Chief", I want him to be "Politician in Chief" - a planner, enabler, developer and organiser - not a warrior!

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  • 135. At 5:28pm on 03 Nov 2008, bluejay60 wrote:

    Few stories capture the hope and opportunity and drive inherent in the "American Dream" like the many variations on the "rags to riches" theme by Horatio Alger. They combine american elements of a meritocracy, fairness (in other words, equal opportunity devoid of political baggage) and hard work. The stories might be considered a new world decendent of Dick Whittington's tale.

    One ingredient missing of late had been fairness or the idea of a level playing field on which all can exert their best effort. Tax breaks for the wealthy, and basically all "trickle down" policies favored by Bush *and* McCain, are more 19th Century European and aristocratic in intent. They aim to keep down the rookie players and the 2nd string.


    Obama himself is a Horatio Alger story. Single mom, not American aristocracy parents like Bush or McCain. Globe-trotting childhood with that single mom and briefly a step family; I know from academic friends that just domestic travel for research and tenure can put heavy strains on an intact nuclear family. Raised in part by grandparents; time with extended family is a real plus many of us wish for, but not in the absence of our parents. Worked hard at good colleges - what most of us are trying to get our kids to do - and topped that off with a good job. Solid American taxpayer (no-one has heard any uproar over Obama's tax return from his upper middle class law career). Constitutional scholar, not a bad plotical qualification is that? Political career built up from Chicago grass roots.

    Obama is the American most of us want our kids to be. There is nothing foreign about him, except maybe so much competence, steadiness and judgement in candidates when we are used to lower standards. I am trying hard to raise my American kids to be like Obama - and live their sucess story.

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  • 136. At 5:32pm on 03 Nov 2008, bluejay60 wrote:

    The debate over what is American is making for a nasty, and significant, turn in American nationalism. This "too European" question seems related:

    At our best we have an inclusive "civic nationalism" based on core values of our democratic republic (those are not party words in this, their more essential usage) and Constitution. All are welcome to join - we are all Americans in our exercise of democracy and observance of rights including those related to tolerance. This is the nationalism of Liberty and Justice for all.

    At our worst we are more like the divisive or exclusive nationalism practiced in many current and past conflicts. Other parts of the world based inclusion on (communist) party loyalty or on pure Aryan blood. Here, now it becomes the you are with us or against us nationalism, the real American vs not so real American... This also sounds like the anti-immigrant (as in 19th century anti-Irish, anti-Italian, anti-eastern European) and anti-"negro" nationalism that we should not be proud of in our history, and should take great care not to repeat.

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  • 137. At 5:32pm on 03 Nov 2008, ChristaB wrote:

    I'm an Obama voter, but I'm glad to see that you've given a voice to the non-crazy McCain voters. Its always good to see a distinction between person and policies, even if I do disagree with the McCain voters' assessment of those policies.
    Yay for dignity!

    I also blogged about this entry here:

    http://theodalisque.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/bbc-many-mccain-voters-are-not-whackjobs/

    at

    theodalisque.wordpress.com

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  • 138. At 5:44pm on 03 Nov 2008, elvislives12 wrote:

    I am from the UK but I am still watching the 2008 campaign with interest and bated breath. I think America is a great country with fascinating history.

    From what I have seen the Mcain - Palin ticket is a joke, actually no its too insulting to the American electorate to be amusing. They label Obama a socialist without any real idea of what that means. They say he is too 'different' as if they have compex deeply thought out reasons for not voting democrat.

    The Republican campaign has used hate bigotry and division to try and win an election. It has fed off ignorance and tried to set back American society 40 years by flaming the fire of racism to get more votes.

    The likes of Martin Luther King and JFK/ RFK would surely turn in their graves if they were around to witness this attempt to dismantle the foundations of equality, decency and hope that they strived and died for.

    I and everyone I know are praying for an Obama - Biden victory.

    Obama is the real deal. He will bring change, hope, heart, and unity back to America.

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  • 139. At 5:44pm on 03 Nov 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    Vivirafw (#128), this is just another scare tactic, offered up with nothing at all to support it.

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  • 140. At 5:48pm on 03 Nov 2008, jenspoke wrote:

    To call Mrs. Obama unpatriotic for her comment is absurd. Why does patriotism have to entail approval of what the country (read: "gov't") is doing? On the contrary, I believe that the concern that what is being done is not right--and the willingness to do all that she has done to try to change it--is a display of amazing patriotism.

    One could even argue that those threatening to flee to Canada or Mexico if their candidate doesn't win, or those who vote based on their own pocketbooks and interests without considering what's best for the greatest number of Americans are the truly unpatriotic ones. After all, this country can never reach its full and awesome potential as long as the interests of the smallest % of the population are the only ones being served. Those standing at the top on the backs of everyone else cannot remain there if everyone else's backs are slowly being broken.

    This country can only grow stronger when the well-being of everyone in it is ensured. One would be hard pressed to rationally argue that the country is stronger than it was 8 years ago, and when you look at the policies of these last 8 years it's hard not to draw some sort of correlation between the two.

    What concerns me is the strong division in the country now, which doesn't seem likely to go away no matter who wins the election. The best we can hope is that the change promised by both major candidates will be good change...whoever finally claims victory.

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  • 141. At 6:01pm on 03 Nov 2008, Ashill wrote:

    I am sorry to say that I fear Americans will be disappointed in their new president (whomever wins) because expectation has been overdone.

    The new president will face an in-tray of some very serious problems (the economy, foreign policy, etc).

    It's going to be tough for the new president to win a second term in 2012.

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  • 142. At 6:16pm on 03 Nov 2008, autish wrote:

    I was with you till the last line. People don't really think Obama is too "European". They just think he is un-American - which isn't the same thing.

    Obama, as Sarah Palin has pointed out, is not a "real American". He's not a WASP. He has views that seem vaguely alien. His accent has a strange twang. He's elite. To the extent that people associate some of these adjectives with Europeans, your statement is correct. However, the real cause is driven by their lack of acceptance of others. This is not a racist but a xenophobic view that excludes all non Protestant Christians, non Whites and educated elite from the myth that is America.

    In this view, widely propagated by radio shows, America was founded by Christians in the image and teachings of Christ, and America's success is a direct outcome of it. The founding fathers, they insist, were all devout Christians who meant the US Constitution to be a living embodiment of the Bible. The American traditions are Judeo-Christian. So, values of non Protestant non White's are un-American and lesser, to be tolerated, but never allowed to challenge the pre-eminence God's way as embodied by "real Americans".

    It is what American exceptionalism has been reduced to.

    Obama challenges every precept of American exceptionalism. People worry, because they see that deviation as unpatriotic, as a departure from "real America". They protest and predict the decline of this country, because it was God and God's values that gifted this nation with its wealth and predominance.

    I agree, its not all racism. But, it is not anti-Europeanism either.

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  • 143. At 6:40pm on 03 Nov 2008, rwbennett wrote:

    The people who founded and gave America it's history, language and meaning WHERE ALL BRITISH for any practicle purpose. The largest group of good AMERICAN immigrants were German by far. Some Dutch were here very early and important. Most of the rest in any numbers, Irish, Italians, Poles, a few French, others...came 200 years later, and America is STILL adjusting to them. Blacks came of course as part of WORLD WIDE slavery almost from the start. There were very few native Indians in all of North America in 1600AD---most of the land was totally vaccant and had been since time began! I do not believe untill very recently Americans thought of themselves as Europeans in any way. There is new scientific evidence that the original settlers in North America came from Europe however, not Asia. Original folks like my early British family, still spoke of the "Mother Country" 350 years after we came here, when I was young ! Of course we came here to be BRITISH in the first place and even in the Revolution fplks were only claiming our true "BRITISH RIGHTS" as the founding fathers believed. I realize RECENT propagada doesn't support me, even at the BBC, but I do NOT think of Britain and the British as really European...they are more like traditional Americans and vice versa. WE share language, religion, attitudes, history and most things of importance. To give you a GOOD example. yesterday I recieve a full sized ARTS and Media magazine from the University of Arizona and our public media services in Southern Arizona for November and December...who was smiling in full color on the entire front cover infront of British children all with union jacks...THE QUEEN!!! No one will even bat an eye over this, it's just pure AMERICANA, way out here in Arizona. Where Obama fits into this besides his African family being British subjects and fighting in the British Army, not European in any way, God only knows.

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  • 144. At 6:42pm on 03 Nov 2008, U12831485 wrote:

    In my humble opinion, small-town middle America, or whatever it is called these days, either changes its views or will see the nation pushed into a corner in a matter of years.

    Even if Obama wins the election, he will still need to please a huge part of the US population which is quite narrow minded, and doesn't understand nor care for the challenges of this century.

    I really don't think the rest of the world will again risk being financially hurt by American credit habits, rely on the US market, or significantly support the US foreign policy in our times.

    Past glory is just that.
    There is no future in thinking local.

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  • 145. At 6:56pm on 03 Nov 2008, timohio wrote:

    re. 16. markdman:

    I just can't let your characterization of the entire middle part of the country stand without comment. Although Obama was educated on the East and West coasts, he has spent the last 20 years in Chicago, which is in the middle of the country. He routinely talks about the strong Midwestern values of his mother and grandmother. If anything, his policies are Midwestern Democratic Party populism. It's really weird that anyone would find him "European." And you will find millions of intelligent thoughtful people in the towns and cities of the Midwest on both sides of the political divide. Just because a few small-minded people manage to get themselves interviewed on television doesn't mean that the entire center two-thirds of the country is just like them.

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  • 146. At 7:05pm on 03 Nov 2008, EricBE wrote:

    "Obama challenges every precept of American exceptionalism. People worry, because they see that deviation as unpatriotic, as a departure from "real America". They protest and predict the decline of this country, because it was God and God's values that gifted this nation with its wealth and predominance."

    Thought provoking. Pretty nifty with its potential for the evolution of "democracy" in this alleged pluralistic society.

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  • 147. At 7:07pm on 03 Nov 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

    autish (#142), I like your analysis. The "anti-Europeanism" angle comes from a European perspective which is inclined to think that Europe is more important to Americans than it actually is, and from a simplistic model of American society.

    I'll bet a lot of US "real American" voters would have trouble finding Europe on a map.

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  • 148. At 7:10pm on 03 Nov 2008, SpeleoKarst wrote:

    142 autish wrote:

    (Some people think) "...America was founded by Christians in the image and teachings of Christ, and America's success is a direct outcome of it. The founding fathers, they insist, were all devout Christians who meant the US Constitution to be a living embodiment of the Bible..."

    *SNIP*
    _____________________


    Thank you autish for an interesting and thought-provoking analysis.

    I sincerely hope your take is wrong, but in view of the facts, it does sound plausible.

    As a "not-entirely-real-American" (half European and live there permanently now), I already found it strange that, at the age of six, I was being forced to "pledge allegiance" to a flag there.

    Later on, still in the US, I was beaten up at school for being a "foreigner"; something that never happened to me in the several other countries I've grown up in.

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  • 149. At 7:23pm on 03 Nov 2008, EricBE wrote:

    At 12:53pm on 03 Nov 2008, finbaar wrote:
    "I am not biased against americans, I hate all foreigners equally. LIKELY HATES HIMSELF AS WELL

    Just joking." PROBABLY NOT JOKING

    "However if Europeans are anti-americans as well as anti-american government, well just remember who elects the president etc. and that may give you a clue."
    AND THE OTHER NEARLY ONE HALF OF THE VOTING POPULATION (NOT INCLUDING NON-VOTERS) THAT DID NOT VOTE FOR THAT GOVERMENT? AH THE ENLIGHTENING VOICE OF PREDJUDICIAL THINKING.

    "Will Europe notice much difference between Barack and John, can't see it really as they are both so far right as to be almost unelectable in civilis.. oh I mean european countries." CIVILIZATION...? THINK ANCIENT PERSIA BEAT YOU OUT YOU CRUDE LITTLE TRIBAL PEOPLE. MOST OF YOU STILL RARELY BATHE AS IS EVIDENT ON THE TUBE.

    "Anyway america good luck with holding the election and if you have similar problems to 2000 (hanging chads anyone) I'm sure Britain as the former colonial power (AHEMM...YEP)
    will be glad to step in and sort it out (or do we only do that if the country is black and african?). YOU DON'T DO IT ALL ANYMORE...AND CLEARLY YOU MUCKED IT UP WHEN TRIED IN THE PAST. ERGO YOU ARE NEARLY IRRELEVANT AND CERTAINLY IMPOTENT.

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  • 150. At 8:06pm on 03 Nov 2008, Tlingit wrote:

    I think it's rather amusing for Americans to consider Mr. Obama too 'European'. Ask any citizen of the U.S. anywhere in the country what nationality they are. They will likely take you on a brief journey deep into their family tree and their non-U.S. country of origin.

    Really, try it. Use the word "nationality" in the inquiry.

    I think what is bothersome for many here in the U.S. is the knee-jerk reaction some citizens have when presented with something different. Mr. Obama is a perfect example. He is not typical and his name is foreign sounding. He's too European or too African. He shares the same middle name as the first name of an ex-Iraqi leader, therefore he is sinister. Some believe he could not have possibly been born a native citizen given his familial roots. It is ridiculous and in my opinion, a horrifying lack of intelligence and display of subconscious (or perhaps conscious) bigotry.

    Yet a family living in the Midwest four generations strong will tell the tale of their family sailing on the Mayflower and how they still prepare great,great, great grandmother's recipe for lasagna carried with her from Italy. What nationality are they? Italian, of course. If asked whether they could be President of the United States one day if they chose that path? They would answer a resounding "yes" because that's The American Dream.

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  • 151. At 8:19pm on 03 Nov 2008, Belmons wrote:

    Can't remember who wrote this:
    "It's amusing that the US are worried about a "socialist" Obama but seem to have really liked a proper socialist in Tony Blaire".

    Tony Blair a proper socialist! That's the biggest laugh I've had in ages. Even when I helped vote him to his first term, I was under no illusions that he was remotely socialist.
    Tony Blair a socialist? Yeah, and the Pope's an atheist.

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  • 152. At 9:34pm on 03 Nov 2008, akaTurkish_delight wrote:

    The BBC is an objective, impartial news organisation and its reporters and journalists are outstanding. Anyone who dares to say that either the BBC or Matthew Price is biased is out of their league and is most probably a McCain supporter.

    Messages such as this are mere
    sour grapes. Clearly, the McCain supporters can feel the election results slipping away from them and are therefore angry and disappointed so they appear to be lashing out and blaming the BBC and Obama supporters.

    If you disagree with the BBC then perhaps you ought to try other blogs namely American ones which reinforce your own prejudices.

    There is no point in McCain supporters trying to instill fear in to would be Obama supporters. I would rather have a Harvard educated, articulate, young, inspirational, prescient leader like Obama any day compared to the diminutive, shrunken, geriatric, blundering, inept McCain.

    McCain supporters, the 4th November will be your wake up call. It is time for a much needed change.

    (See also my message number 19 on the subject of Obama being "too European".

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  • 153. At 9:35pm on 03 Nov 2008, kcwhattrick wrote:

    Well judging from the Euros who have responded here, there seems to be 2 ways of thinking in Euroland:

    1) America is bad, Americans are stupid, insular and Americans need to be more European because,

    2) Europe is good, Europeans are smarter, more sophisticated, more cultured and worldly.

    Please stop. This view of Europe as being "more" than the US is as old as the hills. And it's extremely arrogant and the reason Americans strive to be as unEuropean as possible. Why is it that when Americans have the courage to be different from Europeans, we are heavily criticized for it? I think one of the best things about my country is that we had the guts to stand up, fight for our independence and say we are NOT Europeans. I think every country outside of Europe should do this. Variety is the spice of life and it's time Europeans woke up and realized that to disagree with the European way does NOT indicate insularity, stupidity or unsophistication. It indicates courage, intelligence and the ability to think outside the Motherland box.

    But, unfortunately, those that do disagree with Euros are condemned as insular and stupid simply because they don't tow the Euro line.

    Europe looks out for Europe first. The rest of us are just lucky to benefit from the fact that they aren't still killing each other and expecting us to bail them out again.

    I'm sorry, but Europe needs to come down off its pedestal and realize that this world has drastically changed. No longer is Europe considered the epitome of civilization. On the contrary, it's seen as the world's bloodiest piece of land.

    And what exactly does it mean when people say Europeans are more worldly? Are they all blue and shaped like globes?

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  • 154. At 9:35pm on 03 Nov 2008, geomapgirl wrote:

    #9 - I think a reevaluation of Jimmy Carter's presidency may be in order.

    Jimmy Carter actually had some very good and progressive ideas. The problem with him as a president came from the fact that he

    A) was A Washington outsider
    and
    B) chose advisors who were stronger than he was and who had their own agendas.

    So far Obama seems to be handling his campaign crew with an iron glove. If he can keep it up with his administration, the same problem should not re-occur.

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  • 155. At 9:39pm on 03 Nov 2008, kcwhattrick wrote:

    One question for our Euro posters.

    Nicholas Sarkozy is often called Sarkozy the American. And not in a nice way. Apparently, being American is NOT a good thing in France.

    Why is being seen as "American" a bad thing for a European politician?

    And isn't it strange that Europeans think an American President that is considered "European" is a good thing? I wonder how many Euro leaders are considered "Chinese/African/American" by Europeans. And more importantly, I wonder how accepted that is.

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  • 156. At 9:52pm on 03 Nov 2008, geomapgirl wrote:

    #24 - So i laugh when people say Obama's color has nothing to do with not wanting to vote for him. It may not be the main reason with some, but it's still an issue.

    Unfortunately, I believe it has almost everything to do with the wild claims of "Muslim," "not a citizen," "Terrorist," etc., you name it (with the exception of possibly "socialist"). All those are (at the present time - regretfully) acceptable reasons for not voting for a candidate that don't require the voter to state a valid reason for not liking that candidate's positions. Race or skin color is not an acceptable reason, and everyone knows it (a few are at least honest enough to admit it). Strangely, I think a lot of people are not even aware that they're doing this. They just don't like him because he's "different," consciously tell themselves they are too tolerant for it to be about his skin color, and so they pounce on the first "different" thing they hear that has nothing to do with race.

    The one bright spot to this is that it should negate the "Bradley" effect, because the people who would stay in the closet for McCain have already come out with what they believe is a good excuse.

    What does worry me:
    1. Undecideds: I believe many of these are McCain voters who don't want to divulge that information for fear of being thought racist.
    2. Faulty voting machines in battleground states.

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  • 157. At 10:00pm on 03 Nov 2008, geomapgirl wrote:

    #41 - Well, I'm an actual "European" and if Obama was running for office here in Britain I wouldn't vote for him because he's much too unEuropean for my liking. He seems like one of those "world citizen" types, which is fine but not a quality I desire in a national leader. I'd want a national leader to be more national than international.

    This sounds like you understand what Matt was saying about the Americans very well, and that you understand how those Americans feel.

    I believe they may call him "European" (if that was their word) because he is multi-cultural and we think of Europe as a multi-cultural place, not so much because of any particular tie to Europe.

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  • 158. At 10:13pm on 03 Nov 2008, geomapgirl wrote:

    #65 - Patriotism can indeed be one of America's worst traits. I remember a couple of years ago speaking to a friend, an educated lady, registered nurse, about opinions regarding the Iraq war. Her comment was: "Oh, but we have to follow and support Bush. He's our President!!!"

    I don't consider this patriotism; I consider it idiocy.

    I am an American citizen. I love my country; that makes me patriotic. I do not (and never did) agree with Bush on the Iraq war or many other policies he instituted. Because he is the president, I have to accept what he did; however I do not have to support him and do not.

    His (and his followers') response to people like me is to label me "unamerican" and say I "don't support our troops." Neither is true. I DO support our troops; I want them to come home ALIVE!

    Patriotism itself is not the flaw. Blind loyalty is.

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  • 159. At 10:29pm on 03 Nov 2008, geomapgirl wrote:

    #93 - I find it very interesting to note that rabid Republicans I have known personally for years were also intiruged by Obama early on. They are confused now. Likewise previously rabid Democrats whom I presumed would be voting for Obama are also now talking as if they won't. They don't like his unproven status and "many misleading comments".

    Excuse me if I believe all these people are in your head. Unless, of course, you're talking about the people the McCain campaign payed to blog that they "used to" support Obama, but ...

    I am not aware of ANY previous Obama supporter who has become disenfranchised. McCain supporters switching to Obama, yes, especially after the Palin pick! - but not the other way around.

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  • 160. At 10:35pm on 03 Nov 2008, geomapgirl wrote:

    #103 - One of the problems with the 'American abroad' is the convenient single packaging of loud arrogance and ignorance

    Thanks so much for the sweeping generalization. I have been to the UK and somehow managed to refrain from shouting at people and demanding that others bow down to me.

    Yes, there are many Americans who cannot imagine that anyone in the world thinks differently than they do, but we're not all named Stepford.

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  • 161. At 10:38pm on 03 Nov 2008, bluejay60 wrote:

    153, 155, KC

    The anti-Europe chip on your shoulder may be the reason that you overlook that the majority of overseas posters are being friendly to the US, and that many proud, patriotic US posters (like me) are not "Country Club First!" Republicans.

    The diviseness you encourage is an example of the dead-end non-civic nationalism that I tried to describe in an earlier post, an idea, like the marginalization of "Main Stream Media" by those who disagree, whose rise seems harmful to the US policitcal scene and informed voter participation.

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  • 162. At 10:51pm on 03 Nov 2008, wilmoto84 wrote:

    As Bill Maher put it-"...at least the levees in Western Europe would hold..." (in reference to Hurricane Katrina).

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  • 163. At 11:02pm on 03 Nov 2008, geomapgirl wrote:

    #158 - Because he is the president, I have to accept what he did; however I do not have to support him and do not.

    I should have clarified: I have to accept what he did and will simply not vote Republian in this election, as opposed to attempting to overthrow the government.

    I did not in any way mean that I "accept" that what he did was right and correct.

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  • 164. At 11:13pm on 03 Nov 2008, StephenDerry wrote:

    Justin, I saw your latest report on BBC News 24 - was it from Nevada? John McCain was telling a joke behind you.

    "There were two inmates in a prison having a meal. One turns to the other and says 'You know, the food in here was much better when you were governer'"

    The crowd reaction was bizarre, a momentary silence then a slight jeer.

    What was with that?

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  • 165. At 11:32pm on 03 Nov 2008, OldSouth wrote:

    Carter gave us the gift that keeps on giving, to this very day:

    He abetted the takeover of Iran by the Shiite fundamentalists under Khomeni.

    When he departed office, we had inflation of 20% and a prime rate of 18%(or was it the other way around--horrific in any case!).

    All of us who lived through it have no nostalgia for those times.

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  • 166. At 11:44pm on 03 Nov 2008, kevnic wrote:

    I see my comment have sent many of my peacenic friends on the war path. The main reason Average Americans see him as European and will vote against him is the hostility of his friends in Hollywood and Academia to religion. They see a Europe where any mention of God is taboo and the way Christians are riduculed. Several persons made the comment that Europeans are Anti-American but i can tell you why. America have maintained a technological edge over Europe, stronger militarily and maintained dominance in sports,medicine and entertainment. America is going through a rough spot,but they will re-invent themselves as they always do.

    Remember Europe had to combine over 26 countries just to compete with the mighty American machine.

    Americans know that Europe is envious of their accomplishments and they will not elect anyone who reminds them of Europe.

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  • 167. At 00:09am on 04 Nov 2008, mrthag wrote:

    Which Europe? Progressive or Haider, Livingstone or Johnston? Our societies are complex and divided and all this one-upmanship is tedious. Barack Obama would be a remarkable man in any country and at any time.

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  • 168. At 00:19am on 04 Nov 2008, Cartponybefore wrote:

    Is that his white half or his black half that is 'European'?

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  • 169. At 00:26am on 04 Nov 2008, JovanaTona wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 170. At 00:56am on 04 Nov 2008, rwalewska wrote:

    Please correct Michelle Obama's quote to "For the first time in my life I am REALLY proud of my country." It's on the record if you listen to UNEDITED audio of her comment.

    Thank you

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  • 171. At 01:24am on 04 Nov 2008, kcwhattrick wrote:

    #161 Bluejay who said "The diviseness you encourage is an example of the dead-end non-civic nationalism that I tried to describe in an earlier post"

    What divisiveness do I encourage? I simply encourage people to think whatever way they think is the correct/best way. That some people DON'T think like Europeans and are criticized as "insular, stupid and arrogant" by our supposedly superior European friends (you count the number of times they claim to be more sophisticated, more cultured, more worldy than us in this blog) is truly disturbing.

    That some Americans are criticized for not supporting a candidate because he is "too European" while the French and British are praised for being less than thrilled at America-friendly leaders like Sarkozy and Blair just proves that there is a huge Transatlantic double standard at work here.

    That you see my posts encouraging freedom of thought as encouraging divisiveness speaks volumes about you.

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  • 172. At 03:51am on 04 Nov 2008, 99percentchimptony wrote:

    Hey BBC - it's our country now, not yours. Obama will be a great president. you'll just have to get used to it pal...

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  • 173. At 04:08am on 04 Nov 2008, bluejay60 wrote:

    KC,

    Maybe I missed something, after reading *all* of your previous posts, which were each some combination of challenging our "Euro" posters or telling Europe how we saved their bacon and they should be grateful and not critical, etc.

    Specifics

    Freedom of thought means hearing out others not hectoring and lecturing (well this may be veering into pot and kettle ) but most importantly not *dismissing* reasonable discourse.

    The highlight of American civic nationalism is E Pluribus Unum, out of many one, with liberty and justice for all. I interpret that as 'you can participate if you pay your taxes, exercise your rights (especially reading the free press and voting), and respect my rights'. I'll mention freedom of religion since it is still novel compared to many places. Pretty inclusive.

    Now, Europe has taken large steps in that direction even though I think they could take bigger steps and be more inclusive (e.g. Turkey). Europe is very diverse, it is as hard to stereotype a European as it is to stereotype an American. So my first point is that the best of America is not name calling or stereotyping. As Barack Obama listed as one of his life's lessons in a recent interview, progress comes from leading people to common ground. We have more common ground (democracy, many freedoms, philosophical enlightenment and other traditions, etc.) with Europe and Europeans than otherwise.

    My second point is that while you responded to some pretty dismissive Europeans, you seemed to throw out the baby with the bathwater, by not responding to many posters here who recognize abundant common ground, American friendship, etc., even thought this is a European-managed blog. In part this illustrates the drawback of blogging, e-mail and so on compared to conversation where meaning and understanding can be verified, or traditional writing where it is carefully proofed. Yes, some people have blinders on to any American good deed (as some Americans do to any misdeed) but most, by far, do not.

    Generalities

    Obama's ability to unite, as much as he can use it to lead and persuade, will revive the better, civic aspect of our nationalism, and replace some chips on our national shoulders with new purpose, hope and confidence, so we can ignore outward slights real or perceived. In addition to cementing our resolve at home, that can help us to lead abroad.

    Eisenhower had the quality of being confident and measured enough to listen and not be intimidated or become dismissive, which Obama seems to share to some degree. From the right I have heard more bluster and less thoughtful reply, as if afraid to acknowledge other views and preferring to divide rather than converse or compromise. If we are dismissive, and divide the country, I can only think of the revolutionary era cartoons with alternatives of a successful American snake - or a doomed one cut into 13 pieces, had the colonies fallen out.

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  • 174. At 05:11am on 04 Nov 2008, pkaarre wrote:

    162. At 10:51pm on 03 Nov 2008, wilmoto84 wrote:
    As Bill Maher put it-"...at least the levees in Western Europe would hold..." (in reference to Hurricane Katrina).

    How many hurricanes do you get in Europe...?

    I am constantly embarrassed by the kind of idiocy, ignorance and arrogance with which many Americans speak and act. However, I know that most Americans are not like this. Most Americans are intelligent, kind and thoughtful people. Americans consistently donate more per capita to international tragedies than any other developed nation. Europeans who make sweeping generalizations about Americans are just as bad as the Americans they criticise. Generalizations are unfair and often untrue.

    Also, for anyone in Europe to accuse the US of not being able to get past race and ethnic difference is absolutely absurd. These issues are easy to dismiss when you're from small homogenous populations. And European states with significant immigrant populations such as France, UK, Germany, the Netherlands and others have serious problems with racism and predjudice. This is not an "American problem" by any stretch of the imagination.

    I desperately hope that Barrack Obama wins the presidency, he represents America incredibly well and will do an outstanding job bridging the trans-atlantic gap that Bush helped create. I have met many people from Europe and have great respect for Europeans and European history so it bothers me when certain self-righteous Europeans make these outlandish generalizations about Americans. Many comments I've seen on this board further illustrate the level of ignorance with which some Europeans speak about America and American issues.

    Finally, I'm from the Northern Midwest, from a pretty big city and my state is consistently the best educated, wealthiest, happiest, cleanest state and has one of the highest standards of living in the US...and we are the only state to have NEVER VOTED FOR REAGAN. So please do not generalize about "Middle America." You don't know what I think, know, believe or desire, so don't make generalizations about me.

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  • 175. At 4:39pm on 04 Nov 2008, kcwhattrick wrote:

    To #173 Bluejay who wrote "or telling Europe how we saved their bacon and they should be grateful and not critical, etc. "

    Please point out where I said that WE (meaning just the US) saved their bacon.

    What I've actually said on numerous posts around the BBC is that if it weren't for the rest of the world's help, Europe would surely be a hell hole right now. The fact is that Europeans do owe a great deal to the rest of us (and by "rest of us" I mean the non-European countries who joined in when Europe needed us the most). Surely this isn't arrogant or insular to say that, is it?

    What is happening on this thread is that too many people think Americans are insular or narrow-minded and won't vote for Obama because he is too European. Also, there seems to be this belief from our Euro friends that they are far more intelligent, cultured, sophisticated, worldly than us. Such thinking is ridiculous and arrogant and only highlights the elitism that still pervades Europe.

    To disagree with a Euro does not indicate insularity or stupidity. To say you don't like Obama because he seems too European does not imply a parochial view. Sarkozy and Blair are often criticized for being "too American" in European eyes. Do our Euro friends think insularity is to blame? Not at all. When a European politician is too chummy with the US, the disgruntlement felt by Euros is totally justified to them. The Transatlantic double standard lives on.

    If Obama wins, the Euros will eventually have to wake up to the fact that he is (gasp!) an American first and foremost and that he (gasp!) will have American interests at heart first and foremost.

    If Europeans really are so worldly and open-minded, can you honestly see them voting for a black European man who embraces America? I can't and I don't think I'm alone in this.

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  • 176. At 5:12pm on 04 Nov 2008, bluejay60 wrote:

    OK, KC,

    at best I confused tone with content - at worst badly misunderstood - your points are valid, my apologies to you. However I do see some USA poster comments here that annoy me more (as they represent USA) than the similarly small proportion of uninformed overseas comments.

    The only "more what" I care about in a candidate is more competent and more in line with a vision of where we need to go from here, European or non-European is not a consideration for me and I think Matthew added "too European" when he could better have said "too different" or "too non-traditional" as the impression some have of Obama. Also, "European" does not equal "non-insular" as there is far more than transatlantic knowledge required to make up an informed world view.

    America has done a lot for the world, I agree KC, and not everyone posting here has an unjealous or balanced view of that. Iraq is not at all a good example of our actions, if not our intentions, compared to longer history. For good or bad, not always perfect, we stepped into the world scene in large part to fill the breach as Spanish, French, British, Dutch, etc. Imperial fortunes waned, and never built much of a capital "E" Empire ourselves.


    Good luck today - and Starbucks is rumored to have free coffee for those with "I voted" stickers

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  • 177. At 01:19am on 05 Nov 2008, filipu wrote:

    Instead, the corrected quote seems to imply pride as a matter of degree--and frankly what African-American is not bursting with pride over the prospect of the first Black President?

    This remark is very, very revealing, it opens the ugly core of the severe racism of African Americans and Africans.
    Obama must be elected because he's black, not because he's competent.
    Fact is, if both candidates went on stage wearing masks and race was not added as a factor, McCain would certainly have won by a lanslide - Obama is not "eloquent", he is slick, like a used car salesman.

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  • 178. At 02:38am on 05 Nov 2008, Caligirlnow wrote:

    The man plays a good basketball game, is a snappy dresser and graduated an Ivy (two in fact) - American thru and thru.

    When do you think a minority candidate will win the highest office in the UK - or in any EU country?

    I think Europeans need to change their views on what America and Americans actually are. You know, throw out lazy generalizations...and get some facts instead.

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  • 179. At 03:49am on 05 Nov 2008, StephenDerry wrote:

    Well here in the UK we had a Jewish prime-minister in the century before last... and we had a woman a little more recently... her name escapes me...

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  • 180. At 11:19am on 05 Nov 2008, spectacularjonesy55 wrote:

    Caligirlnow wrote:

    "I think Europeans need to change their views on what America and Americans actually are. You know, throw out lazy generalizations...and get some facts instead."

    That goes both ways you know. You only have to read the comments on American conservative blogs and 'alternative' media websites to realise how much distortion, misrepresentation, stereotyping and general ignorance about Europeans and European societies there is over the pond.

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  • 181. At 12:39pm on 05 Nov 2008, Lizard King wrote:

    "That is because - for millions here - Barack Obama is not what they think of when they think of an American. For many I have met, he's simply too "European". "

    So what does this mean? He's not fit to run the [American] country? He doesn't know what Americans want? What they need? Are the Europeans too liberal for all those conservatives out there? It would have been nice if you (Matthew) could have elaborated a bit more on the "too European" but maybe the Americans who said it didn't actually know what they meant.

    I think it can only be a plus point for an American president to be a bit more "European". After all, the US is not the whole world, it's just part of it. And whatever the US does has an effect on the whole world so...

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  • 182. At 12:45pm on 05 Nov 2008, kcwhattrick wrote:

    To Bluejay:

    I agree with you about Matthew's lazy journalism in labelling Obama "too European". Unfortunately this type of journalism is rife in Europe.

    Seeing Obama as "too European" instead of "non-traditional" allows the Euros to criticize the US, call us insular and claim some type of superiority over us. And what European isn't going to love that?!

    :-(

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  • 183. At 1:32pm on 05 Nov 2008, spectacularjonesy55 wrote:

    kcwhattrick,

    You need to do something about your unhealthy obssession/paranoia regarding Europe, having looked through your posts on this forum, every single one is a criticism of Europe, every single one.

    It's as if you think that because the USA took part in WWII, we now have a duty for ever more to agree with and support everything your country does, regardless of whether we see it as just and right or not. This is not friendship or an alliance, what you want is a servant.

    There are many things we agree on across the Atlantic, there are some things we don't, this is normal, get over it.

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  • 184. At 2:05pm on 05 Nov 2008, kcwhattrick wrote:

    To Fransizka who posted "I think it can only be a plus point for an American president to be a bit more "European". After all, the US is not the whole world, it's just part of it. And whatever the US does has an effect on the whole world so... "


    And it can only be a plus point for European leaders to be a bit more "American" or "Canadian" or "non-European" in general. After all, Europe is no longer the whole world. Unfortunately, we've all seen how European leaders who are labelled "too American" are treated in Europe. Sarkozy, Blair and any other Euro who has the guts to claim an admiration for the "American way" are roundly criticized.

    Sad really.

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  • 185. At 2:46pm on 05 Nov 2008, kcwhattrick wrote:

    To spectacularjonesy55:

    You couldn't be more incorrect about me.

    I respect Europeans tremendously. And I most certainly do not have an obsession/paranoia about your continent. What I do have is an exasperation with a continent that is unable to see that most countries don't want their leaders to be "too European". This is not just a US trait.

    Calling Americans insular and stupid because we don't want Obama to be "too European" is silly. Claiming that Europeans are more sophisticated and more intelligent than Americans is just plain arrogance. Telling Americans that their leaders could use a dose of being "more European" while European leaders who are "more American" are heavily criticized is just plain hypocritical.

    It would be interesting to see if Europe will ever elect a leader who was considered "too American" by a good portion of the population. Sarkozy comes close, but he is still French enough for France.

    And nowhere did I say that Europe owes undying obligation to the US and must agree with us on everything. THAT is a figment of your imagination.

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  • 186. At 3:34pm on 05 Nov 2008, spectacularjonesy55 wrote:

    Kcwhattrick

    But you seem to be saying exactly the same in reverse, how it is terrible that a European wouldn't want their leader to be 'too American' (even though Blair, Sarkozy etc seem to have been pretty successful in elections) if it's fine for you not to want your leader to be too European, why isn't the same true vice versa for us??

    Your exasperation is shared by many here when we constantly hear how from people over there that Europeans are doing x, y or z wrong and should be more like the USA.

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  • 187. At 03:14am on 06 Nov 2008, kcwhattrick wrote:

    To spectacularjonesy:

    "But you seem to be saying exactly the same in reverse,"

    No I'm not. I'm saying that if Europeans don't want their leaders to be "too American" (eg. Blair and Sarkozy) than Europeans should not be surprised that we Americans don't want our leaders to be "too European". Go back and reread the comments on this thread. There are plenty from Euros claiming that our concern over Obama being "too European" is due to insularity and stupidity. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true.

    "how it is terrible that a European wouldn't want their leader to be 'too American' (even though Blair, Sarkozy etc seem to have been pretty successful in elections) if it's fine for you not to want your leader to be too European, why isn't the same true vice versa for us??"

    It ISN'T terrible and it IS fine if you all don't want your leaders to be "too American". What I'm trying to get through to everyone is that it should also be fine for Americans to not want their leaders to be "too European". Judging from some of the European comments here, it's obvious that we Yanks don't get the same respect as you all do.

    "Your exasperation is shared by many here when we constantly hear how from people over there that Europeans are doing x, y or z wrong and should be more like the USA."

    Believe me, it's a draw when it comes to Americans/Europeans claiming superiority over one another. It's too bad we can't just all calm down and rationally accept one another's differences. Oh well.

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