US status anxiety over rising China
China is getting under the skin of the world's only superpower in a way that the Soviet Union didn't during the Cold War or Japan in the 1980s, when it threatened to gobble up corporate America.
China's remarkable rise has paralleled America's own relative decline. So when Chinese President Hu Jintao visits Washington this week, he'll find his hosts suffering from status anxiety. The nation long driven by manifest destiny is ill at ease with itself, uncertain - perhaps for the first time in its history - that its best days are still ahead.
China's latest great leap forward is in education. Students from Shanghai scored stunning results last month in international tests, easily topping the world in maths, science and reading. Where was America? Languishing more than 20 places below in each category - the US education secretary says it is a "wake-up call".
So we visited one of America's elite universities to test the mood. Duke is dubbed the 'Harvard of the South' (although here they prefer to call Harvard the 'Duke of the North'). It's a global centre of excellence, umbilically attached to North Carolina's technology triangle that attracts international students and faculty, particularly from China. From academics to athletics - the men's basketball team is ranked one of the best - the place is imbued with the self-belief, some would say arrogance, which for so long underpinned the US in its undisputed title as the world's top dog.
We put together a team of Duke's best and brightest - including three Chinese-born students - to discuss America's place in the globalised world. We showed them a slick and controversial advert aired during the recent congressional election campaign by a group called Citizens Against Government Waste. Set 20 years in the future, a Chinese professor is lecturing students about the fall of the American Empire. Reckless spending led to crushing debt, he explains, before adding: "Of course we owned most of their debt so now they work for us." The message: America, be scared of China.
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Jack Zhang, who was born in China but grew up in Pennsylvania, was dismayed by the confrontational take.
"It portrays it as a zero-sum game and that somehow Communist China is just the mortal enemy of the US and that the way forward is through competition of some sort. I think that's the wrong approach."Sharon Mei, who runs an "Understanding China" house course with Jack, said the advert played on fear.
"What I was most hurt by was when they had the audience of young people and everyone was yelling in a hostile and malicious manner - these are the people on the other side of the world who will take us over if we don't do something about it."
She believes ignorance about China and the Chinese fuels suspicion.
"It's the way people perceive China - that on a moral level that they're not someone we want to be a superpower."
Helen Cai, a freshman who was born in China but recently became a US citizen, says the fear is not rational.
"I don't think Chinese people are aware of this kind of power, that they are portrayed in this kind of light in America."
Jack agrees that Americans seem more convinced by China's growing supremacy than the Chinese do. He quotes a recent survey by a Chinese newspaper in which 80% of Chinese respondents said China was not yet a superpower, while 87% of Americans believed it was already.
Romeen Sheth lives in Atlanta but his family is from that other emerging economic powerhouse, India. He takes a provocative stance on the future of the US, contrasting China and India's annual economic growth of 8-10% a year with the American economy "flat-lining" at about 1.5% to 2% a year.
"If we continue on the trajectory we're at right now I think America could soon find itself in a position of global insignificance."
The US has always benefited from an influx of immigrants and ideas. But now, he says, many Chinese and Indian students and workers are struggling to get green cards and visas allowing them to stay.
"So what we're doing is giving US-acquired information and we're sending it back to India and China. So America is the first empire that is giving away its strategic weapons almost. In an information-age society knowledge is a strategic weapon."
Will Brody, a native of North Carolina, is still confident about America's role. "I still think the US will be a superpower far in the future," he says, pointing out that it remains the global trend-setter on everything from technology and social networking to politics and foreign policy.
Helen Cai says economic expansion is not the only way to measure a country's success. Americans put far more value on abstract ideas like liberty and freedom than the Chinese do, she says.
Jack Zhang argues that these values are what make America great. Yet democracy - particularly one as divided and dysfunctional as America's today - can be a handicap when it comes to global competition.
"I don't think it's so much America has become complacent in its power or prosperity, it's just their political institutions cause difficulties. China has an authoritarian, one-party state, so can afford to pursue economic policies that might not make everyone happy."
He points out that China's vast population means its government has to confront tough choices on behalf of the country. And it's not easy for Chinese people either. The sheer numbers mean individuals face intense pressure and competition if they want to be part of the economic miracle.
Jack devotes much of his time to improving understanding between the two countries and cultures that he loves. But I ask him to imagine a world where China and America are at each other's throats and he had to decide which side to back. What would he do?
It has clearly crossed his mind because he answers instantly.
"What worries me more is which side will call me out as being a traitor or a spy. That's the kind of world I don't ever want to live in and I hope we won't come to that because nationalism on both sides puts people, especially people like me, in an awkward and awful place."Matt Frei got a very different perspective from people in Lenoir, North Carolina. Thousands of jobs have been lost there in recent years after furniture factories shut down and moved operations to China. You can see his full Newsnight film here.
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"It portrays it as a zero-sum game and that somehow Communist China is just the mortal enemy of the US and that the way forward is through competition of some sort. I think that's the wrong approach."
Nevertheless, its the approach that Beijing has been pursuing for almost three decades. The constant devaluation of the yuan, the one-way flow of information, the utter disrespect for intellectual property rights, the growing militarism and foreign policy belligerence - everything China has done for the past twenty years has put them on a collision course with the US and possibly other Western democracies. China isn't the only one to blame, of course. American corporations have thoroughly sold out to Asia, rewarding the nation that made them great by sending all the jobs to Shanghai. Meanwhile, China has laundered the dollar to the point of it being threadbare. The fact they own so much of our debt makes serious conflict all the more likely. History has shown that average Americans won't tolerate subservience to any foreign power, even when fifth columnists like the liberal Democrats will. The best hope for avoiding a total breakdown in relations would be if the Chinese citizen started realizing how badly he's being shortchanged by his government and demanded better. Here's hoping that it start happening soon.
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The years of the Chinese Cultural Revolution are now long gone, and today China is nominally Communist but apparently has focused on Capitalism as a national goal.
Politically, the United States condemned Communism, but now that China apparently has embraced Capitalism, what complaint could the US now have?
Yes, the differences between East and West are vast, and so much negotiation between them will be necessary, but that could benefit both East and West.
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I have lived through the periods when the Soviet Union and Japan were seen as threats and to say that China gets under America's skin more than they did is a bit much. Japan had a GDP half the size of the US in the late 80's, as opposed to China's which is a third now. Japan's economis sucess was causing unemployment in Detroit, not so much with China's products, which replace other inports from Japan, Korea, Mexico etc,,.
In the 80's I was getting my MBA and had to go through class after class on the Japanese managmemt style. Even on how they managed farms and banks, which they were not particularly good at. All this talk about China's assent gives me a feeling of Deja vu.
I think the Soviet Unions GDP as a percentage of the US's got to be at least a third in the 70's, and it had a comparable military in size and an idiology that was being exported successfully and atomic weapons pointed at us. THAT caused Anxiety.
Another reason I think the term "getting under the skin" is off is that American's have A LOT of contact with Chinese. For every British or German person I have met I have met at least 40 Chinese. They are not that "Foriegn" to Americans. They are neigbors, gone on vacation with Chinese families, dated a chinese girl for a while, whent to dinner with a Chinese couple last week. Took classes with Chinees profs. and students more than I can coun't. Had a few report to me in the past. I can't tell you how many "I wanted the American dream" stories I have heard over the years. In all those years I know of one guy - in the investment business- that went back to China for good for a job.
When you know people on a personal level, and their kids play with your kids, it is hard to build up the "Anxiety" and "get under your skin" felling you describe.
In the investment field where I work when China comes up in is always in the context of opportunity as opposed to risk. It could be companies like YUM! which has more sales in China now than in the US or Apple - manufacturing an IPhone at a $6 cost and maintaining 60%+ margins.
I think it is the Euro left that seems to enjoy the idea and likes reading of the US geing surpased by China as opposed to the US obbsessing on it. Frankly I think this mentality it is wrong headed. The Chinese act like the opium wars were yesterday and they are still angry about it. If China really were to become a superpower the LAST nationality I would want to be was British.
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The growth of China was mainly fueled by the outsourcing ideology of might American corporate powers and general American mass hunger for cheap products. Yet China's current main accusers are the same corporate figure heads that not so long ago shifted American jobs to the far East.
Americans in general live for short term solutions. Hence the country is a society of Oprah and Dr Phil and quick fix solution self help books. The current US congress inherited a country that is in financial mess corporate instability. However, as Homer Simpson ( an all American representative ) would say, " It is easy to blame yourself, it is even easier to blame someone else". And that is what they did. And who better to blame than the classic communist bad guys.
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The only real anxiety I have about China as an American is what is going to happen to the average citizen when they realize that all this economic expansion came at the cost to their environment. The destruction of their fossil water in the north, and the general damage they have done to their surface water alone is enough to make me worried, and that is one of many issues that need to be addressed. Desertification, algal blooms, and a whole host of other environmental issues will hit them all the harder for having such a huge population.
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#3
"In the 80's I was getting my MBA and had to go through class after class on the Japanese managmemt style. Even on how they managed farms and banks, which they were not particularly good at. All this talk about China's assent gives me a feeling of Deja vu."
Yep. And then in the late 80s, the Japanese balloon deflated, US imports can only sustain so much. The same is the case with China, an economy fueled primarily by exports to the US and Europe. The cycle shall repeat itself, every few decades the US must invent another economic competitor.
From the 50s onwards, there was the typical succession of cheap labor pools for the US market. Japan and Hong Kong, Taiwan and Korea, Malaysia and China now.
I forecast Vietnam, India and Laos as the next targets, they already work for pennies on the dollar, compared to the Chinese.
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In some ways it is difficult to criticise China's desire for growth and prosperity. As a people do they not have the same right to a standard of living on par with the West? I think the same right exists for all persons around the world. Unfortunately our world is one of finite resources and sharing them all out equally whilst they continue to decline is a problem without any concrete solution.
The political vehicle China uses for such change may be alien to us but not the Chinese. That it allows China to achieve rapidly what they, and other Nations, desire is their own business. However, in years to come I have no doubts that China will be as concerned about other rising economies in much the same way as the US is now.
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#3
"If China really were to become a superpower the LAST nationality I would want to be was British. "
I'd be even more worried if I was a citizen of the country that guarantees Taiwanese independence and has troops based in Japan, a country that raped China sideways 70 years ago.
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"China's remarkable rise has paralleled America's own relative decline."
Paralleled? You seem to be suggesting that these events, whilst occurring simultaneously, and not related. They clearly are. China didn't wake up one day, decide to adopt capitalism, and then begin growing at 10% pa, in a bubble. They are doing it by moving existing technology and businesses from the US (and Europe) to China where labour costs are so much lower, with the complicity of the US authorities. The whole scenario is a wet dream for capitalists and I only wonder why they're not growing at more than 10% udner the circumstances.
What the American people should be doing, instead of blaming the Chinese, is to ask why their government and business leaders have allowed this to happen. But of course they can't because they've all been brainwashed to believe that the free market is the be-all-and-end-all, and anyone suggesting anything else is a traitor.
It serves the capitalists well to ensure the average American citizen has an outsider to fear so that they don't focus too much on who is really ripping them off - from the Soviets to the Muslims, via Aliens and now on to the Chinese, just the latest in a long line of smoke screens.
I've visited and have friends in both countries, and generally the average American and Chinese man on the street are not so very diffrent. But as throughout history the governments and "business-elite" will try to set them against each other.
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It would be interesting to get inside of US politics to find out, just what really gets under their skin the most, concerning china. Is it the politics? The difference between Democracy and Communism. Democrats can become really upset by communists as we all know. I dont see the big deal personally. Quoting the great winston churchill "It is said that Democracy is the worst type of government. Except all the others that have been tried. I believe their is something better than democracy. One that is secular from overall government and far left. Sheer population numbers is the only thing in the way of this.
Another reason that could be what upsets the US is the fact that they dont want another rival. Rivalry with asians in the past has proved very troublesome in the past. Maybe nightmares still occur in minds of ones that witnessed the wars. I would guess its a mixture of these things. And added anxiety over economy and debt will also plays its part.
Im not a fan of the US. If i was chinese born in the US and i was asked the question over which side to take, if had to. I would be straight back to china. Even if it means getting nuked by the war minded tyrants. If war started, it would be the US to blame and i can be sure of that.
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I think that the United States is still a much greater economic and military power than China, and will likely remain so far into the future.
However, the US has nowhere NEAR the political will to act decisively that China (through its single-party, authoritarian system) can muster, and America WILL (because of its diversity, and extreme emphasis on 'freedom') continue to be taken advantage of... Americans seem happy to educate the Chinese, Indians, and Arabs, even knowing that political systems are in conflict, as the one student from India mentioned. (The same is true of Europe, for that matter.) Every high-technology product the US does manage to sell to China is reverse-engineered and copied so that a Chinese firm can sell America's innovation both in China and abroad; US exports become Chinese exports within a year...
China's amazing rise could not have occurred without America (although today that is much less true, as China has wisely diversified its range of economic partners), whereas America would still be the leading superpower... with or without the Chinese...
With all that said, when pushed hard enough - by the British Empire in the 1800's, by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor, by the Soviet Union during the Cold War - the United States WILL find its will to act, and remains a nation that none dare make their enemy...
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One big problem in US-Sino relations is the anti-communism mentality of the American people bordering on insanity. To them, communism is the devil that must be defeated and destroyed. So they can't accept a communist country that is stronger while China never tries to sell communism. China can get along with democratic western countries without criticizing their system. Its soft power does not go down well with hawks as they can't sell the idea to third world countries that it is 1939 again.
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I spent a couple of weeks in China this summer with a Chinese host. From conversations with people I met the principal difference between the east and west seems to be that we are lucky if the US/UK (Europe?) can plan for tomorrow while China is planning decades ahead. In general the prosperity of the country is being charted rather than individual gain though of course that incentive is there too.
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The thing that really concerns me is not China's success but rather America's failures. China is a huge country with an ancient culture and a lot of intelligent, hard working people. Of course they are going to be one of the most important and powerful countries in the world. We had best just accept that as inevitable. What is not inevitable is continued American success. My real fear is that we will not do as well as we could, across the board, and that anything less than our best will not be good enough. We may survive as a nation, but mere survival rather than success is a very poor future to anticipate. Our failures are entirely our own fault - the fault of the American people in general, and those in positions of leadership in particular. My anxiety is focused first an formost on our failure, both at the grass roots and the highest levels of authority, to get our act together and start actually working on the big problems facing the US.
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China is getting under the skin of the world's second superpower. It's only a superpower that is equal or stronger to a second superpower that can get under its skin; otherwise, the reaction is more ignore, yawn, take a nap...
China's rise/America's decline: This is the key irritation that is getting under the skin of the USA. e.g. China stunning results last month in educational international tests/America languishing more than 20 places below in every category.
The Duke visit: Team of Duke's best and brightest - including three Chinese-born students - to discuss America's place in the globalised world - Jack Zhang, born in China, grew up in Pennsylvania, was DISMAYED by the confrontational attitude; I believe this is true from the perspective of many Chinese People. The Americans tend to see world politics, economics as a zero-sum game - Communist China is the enemy. Americans have little concept re "lifting all boats, including Chinese, Russian, Afghans, Pakistanis etc." To American's its the American boat that counts; the world is a very confrontational place. You win, or you're nothing = zero-sum.
Serious stuff is afoot. China's President Hu Jintao arrived in Washington; you just know that his progress is being watched in every capital – especially New Delhi. Gideon Rachman, author of "Zero-Sum Future: American Power in the Age of Anxiety": China's economy will overtake US' economy well before 2030. "China's economic prowess is already allowing Beijing to challenge American influence all over the world."
During Hu's last bilateral visit in 2006, he was denied a ceremonial state visit, but now China's GDP has nearly doubled to overtake Japan and Germany and become the second largest economy after the US. Beijing also holds $ 1 trillion IN US GOVERNMENT BONDS and has used its deep reserves to buy soverign-debt bonds from Greece and Portugal.
Ahead of the Hu visit, a group of American Senators threatened a currency bill to counter what they say is Beijing's manipulation to keep the yuan (or renminbi) undervalued. An undervalued yuan keeps China's goods cheap, gives its exporters a big advantage. Here is the real story: Basically, the Americans are trying to force Beijing to increase the value of the yuan against the dollar so that Washington can repay its debt to China more cheaply. In otherwords, China could suddenly find the $1 trillion debt that is owed by the United States is worth far less. Tell mke why China should do that?
China has allowed the yuan to inch up at its own pace, even though the US has printed a ton of money (QE) where each dollar printed reduces the the value of the American bonds held by the Chinese.
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As a proud citizen of the great nation that is the United States of America, I must say that it is the Euro zone nations that really “get under my skin”, not China. There are so many Europeans prattling on about the “decline” of the United States. It would be quite funny is it weren’t so pathetic. You see, it is the Europeans, lead by stunted Brits with runt complexes, who suffer from “status anxiety”. So in an effort to comfort and sooth yourselves over your loss, long ago, of stature you jump on any bandwagon that attempts to demoralized the great people of the United States of America.
Instead of prancing around pointing fingers and claiming American injustice and corruption just once try to remember the force of good my country has represented around the world, including spending blood and money stabilizing your entire continent. Just remember, we are a collection of states, each with its own character and politics. So while to the uninformed outsider it may appear that America is complacent, and stuck in a political stalemate, never forget that we remain a superpower and there is nothing on this planet that can rival our strength of will and character when we are truly united behind a cause. It is that strength that has made the world is a better place.
Thank God, or whatever divinity you believe in, for United States of America.
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Gretamac is right. After all, the shortest way to get from one point to another is a straight line. The Chinese have firm objectives decades in the future and they get there along a straight line instead of changing all the time between different political ideologies, each with different goals and priorities, like western countries do.
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I'm too young to remember the era of competition with the USSR or even with Japan, but it's important to remember that Americans can be extremely paranoid, especially of anything foreign. Let's not forget that when JFK was running for election, a lot of conservatives, particularly in rural America (probably the same people who are most afraid of China now), were terrified of the prospect of a Catholic president, since he would be taking orders from the Vatican, of course.
Most Americans can't remember the Great Depression. We have enjoyed nothing but prosperity for six decades, and we have been riding on asset bubbles for the last two that saw great technological advancement. This crisis is the first real one that most Americans have ever seen, and for the first time since the Great Depression (other than maybe a blip in the 70's), our outlook on the future is very pessimistic. As the American economy struggles and we see that the rest of the world has caught up in the past few decades, particularly China in the past few years, many Americans are nervous. They seem to recognize that the glory days are over and that we'll never be as prosperous as we once were. The same goes for foreign influence: our lack of success in Afghanistan and Iraq has taught us that even with the world's most powerful military we can't shape the world to our liking.
So there is a good deal of anxiety in this country about its place in the world and its future, and much of this is directed on China. We compare our situation to theirs: it's the world's most populous country and obviously it is the next large empire. Its rate of growth considering its size is unprecedented, and its military is developing as well. Most importantly, they own a good deal of America's record setting federal deficits, and the trade deficit makes it fairly obvious as to who is fueling China's rapid economic growth. Americans seem to have a sense that these developments are somehow related: they see that China is growing at these high levels thanks to the American consumer, and that free trade is moving American jobs overseas. But since Americans lack the political will to do anything that would "tamper" with markets, they seem unable to make a meaningful call to action and unsure of how to even approach the situation.
At least during the Soviet era, America knew its future was bright and its economy was growing. The gap between the two powers and the rest of the world was wide. Now, America is clearly a waning empire, and Americans sense that there is little they can do about it, especially after our failed ventures in the Middle East. This creates a sense of anxiety since it is a new concept for Americans, and obviously, this anxiety will be directed towards the newest empire on the rise.
"It portrays it as a zero-sum game and that somehow Communist China is just the mortal enemy of the US and that the way forward is through competition of some sort. I think that's the wrong approach."
Except that to a large extent it is a zero-sum game. I don't buy into the notion of the neoliberal paradise where every economy grows through trade that is mutually beneficial to all. We have reached a crisis of global overproduction, so industrial production and exports tend to be a zero-sum game where the nations with cheapest currencies win out. The same strategy was used by Japan and still is today, except that they have finished developing and hit their ceiling for growth and are only fighting for larger shares of the pie. Korea also used the same strategy and is in a similar situation...the only thing they can do to bring economic growth is devalue their currency even further.
Both of these countries of course, like China, translate their surplus into dollar-denominated assets, particularly treasury bonds, to artificially keep the value of their own currencies low. They also have a variety of policies to keep consumer spending low to stave off inflation and most importantly to make sure the surplus is translated into investment in productive capacity.
China has used the same strategy and has enjoyed tremendous gains in the era of free-trade by selling everything it makes to the American consumer (who is more than willing to buy cheap goods no matter where they came from). This has led to an unsustainable balance of trade that must correct itself at some point. America's trade deficit cannot grow larger indefinitely, and if China wants a market for its goods so that it continues to grow, it needs other sources. But they will have a hard time doing so.
Europe would be ideal, particularly with its overvalued currency, but the European Union has very large barriers to trade to non-members (Chinese exports to Europe remain very low in comparison to what they could be). Maybe their best bet is trying to find a variety of sources, anywhere from Russia to Brazil. With Latin American economies doing so well, perhaps their growing middle classes would love an influx of cheap consumer goods from China. But I think China's best bet is to hope for the dissolution of the European Union.
As for the US, China is a symbol of the increasingly zero-sum game the global economy is becoming. Its manufacturing sector, once a source of national pride, has been in decline for decades due to overseas competition in the neoliberal era. The most recent and obvious large-scale competitor is China, and walk into any Wal-Mart and you'll find it full of cheap Chinese goods. Since unemployment has been particularly high for high-school graduates in the past 20-30 years (and in the past 3 years, this applies to everyone) that used to be able to count on this type of labor, Americans are upset, and with good reason.
The problem is that most Americans don't understand the economics behind it (they simply blame it on immigration from Mexico, which is only a small part of the problem), middle class Americans benefited from the bubbles of the 90's and 00's and wanted cheap consumer goods much more than keeping jobs at home for the working class, and there is a lack of political will behind making the necessary changes to keeping jobs at home. Increasing protection to trade would mean a spike in the prices of consumer goods, and Americans will be unwilling to pay for an abstract idea.
Most importantly, Americans aren't used to having to make any economic sacrifice...in the post World War II era, all we've had to do is let the market work its magic. Of course protections to trade and governmental regulations were much, much more abundant back then, but that was the norm of the era. Since then we've done nothing but get rid of these tariffs and regulations in the name of the market with short-term success. Now that we are done enjoying the short-term benefits of this move towards marketization, we may need to take a step in another direction.
I don't think Americans will be willing to do so because they have never had to make economic sacrifices, whether it's paying higher taxes or paying more for domestically-manufactured consumer goods, or having to make a move away from markets. We're just accustomed to letting the market work its magic and letting economists make policy decisions, and the result being success. We've only seen prosperity since the Great Depression. So I think it will be very difficult to galvanize Americans to make any sort of sacrifice for the good of the nation or for long-term economic benefits: we've never had to do such a thing since the Great Depression.
Ironically, the fate of the two nations is tightly bound. The US depends on China because of the amount of dollar-denominated assets its his collected, particularly treasury bonds. China could destroy our currency at any moment if it wanted to. But China is even more dependent upon the US. If the US consumer is unable to buy Chinese goods, their growth grinds to a halt and the government will be overthrown. The Chinese people are used to extremely high growth rates, and anything else will be perceived as incompetence in managing the economy. If the American dollar loses value, this would have a hugely negative impact on Chinese exports, which China's economy of course is completely dependent upon.
I think China's best bet is to simply grow the old-fashioned way, the same as all the other super-powers did. Unlike Japan and Korea, it is a huge country with the world's largest population and plenty of resources. Its development must be much more internally focused rather than simply trying to export its way to success. There are simply to many mouths to feed for them to rely on the American consumer paying for the incomes of a billion Chinese. China must lose its export-led model of development and allow much more domestic consumer spending. There are a great deal of measures it pursues to keep domestic consumption low and to make sure the surplus is entirely invested in productive capacity for exports rather than in the hands of the Chinese consumer, and this needs to change if they want to have a more sustainable method of development that doesn't rely on outside sources.
This means that growth will be slower, since it will have to occur from the ground up rather than relying on foreign consumers. But it will be better for China and the world in the long run. The question is whether or not the average Chinese person is willing to only see 3% annual growth as opposed to 15% annual growth for the good of the economy in the long run. Ironically, for both China and America, it seems that their success depends on the willingness of their own people to look towards the future rather than the present.
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"Ahead of the Hu visit, a group of American Senators threatened a currency bill to counter what they say is Beijing's manipulation to keep the yuan (or renminbi) undervalued. An undervalued yuan keeps China's goods cheap, gives its exporters a big advantage. Here is the real story: Basically, the Americans are trying to force Beijing to increase the value of the yuan against the dollar so that Washington can repay its debt to China more cheaply. In otherwords, China could suddenly find the $1 trillion debt that is owed by the United States is worth far less. Tell mke why China should do that?
China has allowed the yuan to inch up at its own pace, even though the US has printed a ton of money (QE) where each dollar printed reduces the the value of the American bonds held by the Chinese."
In case you haven't been paying attention in the past ten to twenty years, China has been artificially devaluing the yuan in order to make its exports more competitive and also uses a variety of measures to keep consumer spending low, which in turn prevents inflation and an accurate valuation of its currency. This is not a conspiracy theory on the part of a few US senators, pretty much everyone in the world recognizes the fact that the yuan is artificially undervalued. The main reason the US is irritated about this is because it fuels a giant trade deficit that benefits the Chinese but undercuts American firms. Europeans, however, have very high barriers to trade with non-EU members and especially China, and don't have the problem of countless cheap Chinese goods being thrown into their markets and undercutting their local producers. The US is currently debasing its own currency through quantitative easing, as you pointed out, but it's not to gain an unfair advantage in trade, it's a foolish attempt to bail out our own financial sector.
The undervalued yuan is something that Americans are understandingably upset about, and if they could get their act together they would raise tariffs on Chinese goods. That won't happen though, because firstly, everyone in America believes that markets always work and that any barrier to their functioning is an abomination, second, American consumers only want cheap goods, don't care where they come from, and are unwilling to make spending sacrifices for the "good of the nation," and perhaps most importantly, if we even thought about doing so, China would immediately threaten to dump US treasuries on the market and destroy our currency. So it won't happen.
China's undervalued yuan is bad for China in the long run, however, since they are too dependent on the American consumer. Consumption in American should only decrease over the next few years (or even decades), so China can't rely on Americans driving their economic growth, especially considering how populous it is. They need to let the market determine the appropriate value for its currency and stop repressing domestic consumption. They need to allow their economy to develop from within, just like almost every other economic power today, rather than simply relying on other countries to buy their exports. China is too big to continue following the export-led model of development that Japan and Korea used before it.
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The U.S. government and it's businesses need to keep their eyes open and their wits sharp when dealing with the Chinese and with other countries. Israel, for one, not only steals U.S. information but sells it to the Chinese and the North Koreans. Forget morals and finger pointing, just use your head as you would with any business partner.
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I think DJRUSA has a good point at the end of his comment. Some Europeans watch this story line with seeming glee which I think says more about those who do than the U.S. There is also this notion that as China ascends, the US declines in direct proportion. Yes, China is a rising power and is growing rapidly. Yes, if China continues to develop along the same free enterprise path that made western nations wealthy they will eventually surpass the US as the world's largest economy (their economy is currently less than half the size of the US). With a population five times that of the US, one only need do the math. It is likely that in spite of this, the US will remain quite relevant and influential for a long time to come. Is the UK, a shadow of its former empire, irrelevant today in the global scheme of things? Quite the opposite. Though a minority of Americans will use the China card to whip up fear and control people, most of us will go about our lives and whether the US is #1 or #2 or #3, it won't matter much. We'll still have a good standard of living, a strong military and the ingenuity and resourcefulness that has always characterized our country.
I think what concerns me the most is not China's economic rise but the rise of their military and to what degree that military is under the control of the civilian government. If you think we've abused our military power (and we surely have), imagine a fervently nationalistic military calling the shots in China with all the war toys they want. It might make some Europeans long for the good old days when all you had to worry about was that loud, obnoxious neighbor across the Atlantic.
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Rise of China from a different angle - This is about Culture/race & clash of civilizations and is the ultimate white man's paranoia.
Ever since Industrial revolution, the White European civilization has ruled the world in terms of economy, industry, commerce and military.
The tide is now turning and this is causing widespread fear and uncertainty.
I remember watching Beijing Olympics opening ceremony with American friends - most of them were bewildered and apprehensive that a former Communist 3rd world nation like China could produce such amazing events and infrastructure.
Might sound strange but as an Indian living in US, I feel good for China and I wish that an Asian nation leads the world. Indians need to learn from China on how a dedicated, matured and focused leadership team can change an entire nation in 20-30 years.
To the person who posted : Asians are mild mannered polite, soft spoken, gentle - get a clue dude! Do you know anything about the Mongols or the Gurkhas ?
Asian are the best soldiers and can be super aggressive in any sphere of life - combat, business, education, careers, family etc
Please do not make stereotypical generalizations about us Asians.
Europeans and Americans - like it or not, Asia will rule and the future belongs to us.
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Matt I really enjoyed your report on American/Chinese relations.
One factor which is slightly lost in the amazing story of the economic development of China is the political and cultural dynamic of China itself. Yes we all know China is a communist one party state and yes we know it is pursuing capitalism. We also know that in the economic sense China is a super power in the making and we wait with baited breath.
However, the thing is this, if you go to different parts of China, they speak different languages. They have different religions, different historical perspectives and different cultural practices and beliefs. Whether the people of China will identify themselves as Chinese, when given the choice to do and say as they please, will be interesting to observe. In a country the size of China, identity is not singular.
I suppose where this observation leads is anyone's guess. But with the huge increase in global information and capitalism [within China] comes aspiration, and at a time when (especially in China) the gap between rich and poor is growing at an exponential rate, so will dissatisfaction with the status quo. If people in different geographical areas identify themselves culturally differently, well this really has the power to rock the boat.
China will suffer a downturn, it is a capitalist model economic inevitability. What then in a one party state?
Who knows. But it does lead to an interesting thought for consideration. If America is having an identity crisis it needs to wake up and smell the coffee. The republican and democrats, and the tea party mad hatters too all need to chill out and take a step back. The political back stabbing and in fighting needs to end. They can't see the wood for the trees.
The very thing I am aluding to above, America's sense of unity and identity, as tainted as it is at the moment by political shenanigans, is what many Chinese people aspire to. The rights and civil liberties America and the Western world have attained are taken for granted, and have been silently eroded by the state in modern times. It is not only the economic strength of America which has made it a super power, but also the liberation and democratic rights and freedoms of the people of America which are what represent the American dream and how America can 'fight' back. The current China has no response.
Americans should remember, there ain't no 'Chinese dream', and if there is, it based on all the freedoms they're in danger of taking for granted.
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This has been Matt Frei's most interesting blog for some time, coming as it does the week of President Hu Jintao's State visit to Washington DC and on the back of the research he has been able to do for his headline Newsnight piece. I was struck by a number of things that his interviews revealed.
Firstly the seemly unanimous feeling amongst the blue collar workers from the Carolinas, who have had to change their outlooks and expectations, and their jobs, that nobody could blame the Chinese for trying to get ahead. I have seen this view reflected in some of the comments above. This is good to know and reflects a mature response to the global realignment we see taking place. They do however blame their politicians for allowing it to happen.
So I was not surprised by the protectionist undertones within the 'Citizens Against Government Waste' campaign advert, which seemed to advocate a 'Fortress America' mentality (BTW guys, you're not wrong about the debt)! Inevitably we see protectionism and populism combine to prey on peoples fears and concerns, which is a rather less mature response than that shown by the blue collar workers of the Carolinas. We see this protectionist view reinforced by davidbrent in comment 9, who clearly does not understand free markets.
A consequence of this was illustrated by Duke student Romeen Sheth in the interview, who sees the fortress mentality expressed through immigration policy and noted that it is akin to America "giving away its strategic weapons... in an information-age society knowledge is a strategic weapon".
I was interested by the observation from his fellow student Jack Zhang, who envisaged the possibility of a time when he might find himself caught within a feud where both sides treated him with mistrust, or even as a traitor or a spy. Mr Zhang has clearly thought about this a lot. He doesn't strike me as someone who suffers from paranoia. He didn't seem to think this worst case scenario would happen but he does not discount it.
I was impressed by the Mandarin classes for young children being organised by parents within the high tech (presumably therefore also high intellect) community in the Carolinas. My thought was if the USA is doing that and still trailing in at 20th in the world educational ratings where does that leave poor little England when it comes to competing with the 'Next Twenty' economies (no doubt somebody will tell us where the UK came in the same poll)?
I was struck by the total absence of any mention, either from Mr Frei or any of his interviewees (or previous commentators for that matter) of the ratcheting up, alongside its economic might, of China's military capability. Especially its naval power (which has now joined the international fleet combating piracy off Somalia, a trade route that is of increasing importance to Chinese manufacturing interests).
I was left thinking that I wish my fellow Europeans could understand that the European Union must be made to work if it has a chance of competing in the emerging world order. And that it need simply be regarded as "a collection of states, each with its own character and politics" as Kurtinco @ 17 eloquently characterizes the United States of America in his otherwise rather paranoid contribution.
But more than anything else I was left wondering if the Chinese, necessity being the mother of invention, may yet get to grips with their enormous dilemma of combining effective governance to over a billion people through a time of transition (towards a free market economy) without dispensing with single party rule. I am not for a moment suggesting that they will revert to anything as crude as communism but I do see this shifting of tectonic plates in terms of world power, which will take all of twenty five to fifty years to play out, as a challenge to democracy as the world standard in political systems. Scott Hadfield reminds us in comment 10 that in his famous quote about democracy, Mr Churchill also said "I believe their is something better than democracy". I do not know what that might be but my guess is that we will see a few contenders emerge over the next few decades.
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@ 19 dolcem
Sorry, you did mention the military! My mistake.
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The comment by DJRUSA @5.45, well, apparently a few things, you really should learn to spell, mba? Last nationality you would want to be..British! I served my country, England as a front line soldier, and you only wish you were born British! China will implode, they are an arrogant people. You say capitalism, they are still commies, why do you think there are so many in the US. We have a saying in England....There always be an England! When your government ORDERS you to have x amount of children, when your government lails nobel PEACE prize winners, when your government uses soldiers to fight unarmed monks, then what do you have? A place that the British should fear? I do not think so, we are different from many nations, we have exterme pride and when we disagree with the government then we show it! Why should we be scared, they execute so many of their own, gun crimes are rising fast in China, internet restrictions?! Who the hell do they think they are! They need to look at a real calendar...its 2011, not 1011. Get with the times, they are not to be trusted, that is the ones in charge, two faced dictators. If you think that they will be the only superpower, then move then, live under their rules and get your news from commies-r-us! So, my final thing, i am blessed by God to be British!
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Frei really needs to get out of the Southeast and get some fresh air. I remember his first (I think) dispatch, in which he interviewed people in a diner somewhere down there and assured us that we were hearing the views of "Middle America." What a howler! Middle America is in the middle. The South is the South (where the past "isn't even past") and always will be. And the coasts--outside the Confederacy--are where the outside world is recognized and appreciated as real, interesting, and significant. You have to take in all three Americas--and acknowlege that they're all one country.
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Hey guys,
It's good to normolize relations with Countries like China. However, the Americans should get a great watch at its security should China matched its Super power standard. It will be a disaster
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One thing that is interesting in this discussion is an assumtion that the western world led by US will be at the top forever.
Actually NOT. China's rise is natural and no surprise. 1.3 billion population, a very huge country and with a rich past. China's rise is welcome and very healthy.
The Chinese are not interested in imposing their way of life on others by force or wars. They just focused on doing what they do best.
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@ 23 nastynoonoo
Respect!
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All said and done USA needs to learn from its own political behaviour and how it had playedin the past.
Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and all other interests that USA has optioned into are not paying back as USA estimated.
China on the other hand had invested carefully into countries like India where it is paying at a faster rate than expected.
America also has teh arrogance that is passed down to its people We are American and we are invincible. Time to do a reallity check inteligence war , China controls its people and has a closed door policy, no human rights. America everyone has rights and boy American has to share what he knows on the net and facebook.
Economy China would not import products unless its useful or needed for the greater good like jobs.
America would import every thing to make few rich and the nation poor and the best export from America Jobs.
American people are so arrogant they will not take advice from Asian, Black, or any other if they are not born in the USA or have not been educated in the USA.
What made America such a power in the past was to take advantage of intelligent people from all around the world.
Physical war, We all know the numbers. almost 4 to one with most Chinese fit and able and most American overweight and immobile.
USA has a window of less than 36 months to keep safe its position and not to be the runner-up.
Stop exporting jobs, control the policy of installing favourits leave the world to do its own fighting. (for a while because when the doctor keeps at the petient the petient won't accept advise. Let the petient feel some pain it will come running)
Stop helping other nations help your own.
For next 7 years cap all big bonuses and keep the fat cats on a diet.
Joseph ran Egypt 7 years of grain and 7 of famine USA is in the 1st year of famine just plug the leaks.
What is going to happen if this continues that we will have to start again in the next 4 to 6 years, from the caveman status.
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The "democracy" that was formed here in the USA by the socalled "Founding Fathers" was consciously based upon that of ancient Greece - a system that was based upon SLAVERY, with votes primarily for the slave-owning upper classes - and NO votes for women. This kind of system was a perfect match for the "Founding Fathers" here because most of them were slaveowners and had no interest whatsoever in sharing power with 'their' women. That particular "democracy" model allowed the USA "Founding Fathers" an image of 'classical civilization' [sic] while also allowing continuation of brutal predatory and murderous slavery as the PRIMARY means to swift enrichment for the emerging USA rulers. Of the "Founding Fathers" group Benjamin Franklin was a bit more worldly-wise and urbane - one of the most intellectually bright of the bunch, not into slavery, a superb worldclass inventor - fluent in French and spending as much time as he could on the Continent. (Benjamin Franklin was one of those who voted to have the USA official language be French, in fact; he was in the minority however, amongst the rising USA ruling class.)
Capitalism became the USA religion right off the bat - capitalism underpinned by slavery.
And this is the "freedom" that has prevailed ever since - now with a combination of wage slavery for the 'majority' and of actual slavery for the millions of trafficked and/or undocumented workers here.
China is also a cesspool of capitalist oppression - with a slightly different, "communist" [sic], political 'freedom' veneer. They both SUCK when it comes to ordinary people under the thumb of either system.
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Nial Ferguson came up with a clever call name for the unique American/Chinese relationship: he called it "Chimerica." Indeed it appears that the next century of politics and economics may be riding on this doublet.
The interesting thing to note is that both of these heads, though independent, are attached to the same body; America. It is true the Chinese own large amounts of American debt and that selling out all of those bonds could crash the American economy; but wouldn't that be shooting the body to spite the other head?
The Chinese, although seeing rapid growth and development, are not a developed country. Western provinces are brimming with poverty and lack of infrastructure. The Standing Committee and Politburo try to counter this by pumping money into these regions to help expand and develop (a great idea). They take money from (A) and generously give it to (X).
Now, why should American officials feel status anxiety? Because China has the second largest economy and owns the greatest amount of American debt? Because they are increasing their military budget? Or, because they are trying to develop their country as quickly as possible? I cant say, but I know this: Chinas largest obstacle to growth is it's 1.33 billion people. America and the UK owe much of their economic success to modest (small) and creative populations.
Creativity and modest population size is one thing China cannot boast.
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#31 Efuk Gallas
"...should China matched its Super power standard. It will be a disaster"
Really? How do you figure? And this question is meant genuinely - I am curious.
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@ 24 Joseph
As a European I watch this issue from a European perspective very closely. You say the United Kingdom still matters? I think it still gets a seat at the top table for two reasons, its still a G20 economy and for old times sake. But you have a very short memory about transatlantic relations, which rather belies the fact that Europe (by which I mean the EU, which is still not a properly integrated unit capable of representing the interests of half a billion people) still hides behind the skirts of America's defense budget (BTW I acknowledge that you also mentioned the military aspect to this before my initial post was published... we were commenting simultaneously).
But this is not just about the shift in power to China. It is about the increasing power of the four BRICs nations and then the N11 (next eleven) economies. None of which happen to be anywhere near Europe. Each time any one of those goes up a place in the pecking order (of wealth) another of the old guard falls out of the G20 (top table). It used to be the G7, then G8. Then diplomatically the top table had to be expanded very recently to the G20. Just how many individual European states do you imagine will still get a place in that exclusive little club in twenty five years time? Germany? France? The UK? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Yes, the USA will certainly still be in it. But at which seat is the question. Will it still be above the salt even?
And before the Eurosceptics turn up, they being largely responsible for the fact that the EU is still not capable of representing the interests of Europeans at a global level, let us remind ourselves of the very interesting cameo that played out in Copenhagen just over a year ago. High minded Europe, global leaders in all civilized thoughts and ideals, deciding it would save the world by turning the tide in the battle against climate variation and carbon emissions invited everyone to a summit. America and China turned up, smiled and went off for a chat in a private room. In that room they decided the outcome. Which was not the outcome Europe even remotely had in mind. Europe was however allowed to make and serve the coffee. Five star service, I'm sure.
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@ 29 andy
I respect you for having served your country.
But speak for yourself. I have a British passport. I am not especially proud to be British. The last thing the UK did that it could shout about in global terms was in the 1960s and concerned contemporary music and fashions. I am however proud to be a European.
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@ 30 skip_seibel
It doesn't help that the 'Middle' isn't in the middle and the 'South' isn't in the south. But I know what you mean. At least we know where the coasts are (or two of them at least). I'm sure Matt Frei would be delighted if the BBC would up his travel budget a bit.
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Regarding the advert, there are people with that attitude and approach in China. It's not complete fiction. It's also not representative of the entire population.
@MSmithh - hooey, phooey, and more hooey. I have met countless Chinese in China and elsewhere who are infinitely impressed with themselves and quite eager to play the "upsmanship games" with anyone who will engage them. "I went to a better school than you. I have a better car than you. I have a better house than you. I have more face than you." They have a hubris which rankles and a pretentious attitude, and deliberately go out of their way to demean everyone around them, especially anyone from another culture or race. They are quite obnoxious. Their affected "politeness" and "humility" is far from genuine.
What concerns Americans is something I have personally experienced on the streets in Shanghai, Beijing, and other cities in China in recent years: instead of greater economic development fostering greater responsibilty, it has created a hubris and self-centered aggressive arrogance unseen for several generations in the west. The attitude is that "We are better than everyone else, especially foreigners because we are Chinese and you Lao Wai's better learn it." It is this Nationalistic and racial stereotype attitude which is quite frightening to Americans and should be a wakeup call for everyone. Even in the US, non-Chinese are refered to by Chinese immigrants as foreigners (lao wai) -- in my own country, I am called a foreigner! That is just so wrong.
This "better than" attitude used to be held by a small minority. Chinese people in general used to behave politely in most public situations, treat older people with respect, and welcome teachers and others who wanted to see Chinese people prosper. If there was pushing and shoving in queues, it was accepted as unavoidable - no one retailiated.
Now, things have changed. Deference and respect for older people is often completely absent in the younger generations (under 30) compared with 20 years ago. Foreigners are treated with distain and called out for behaving EXACTLY the same as Chinese because, well they are FOREIGNERS, and there are too many young Chinese males who think it is perfectly acceptable to mouth off and even physically attack older women, especially if they are foreigners.
On a ferry returning from the World Expo across the Huang Pu river, I was seated next to a family with a young boy, perhaps 9 or 10 years old. He was squirming and kicking. After he quite deliberately kicked my leg several times, his mother finally told him to sit still and not kick the foreigner. He objected telling her that I was a foreigner, not a Chinese (as if that made it okay) and he wanted to grow up to be a soldier so he could kill all the foreigners. I pretended I did not understand him. She nodded and smiled approvingly at him.
Most Americans think Chinese people should benefit from their hard work and that China's economic development is a good thing. But they need to stop pretending they are "better than everyone" merely because they happen to have been born Chinese. The world has seen this attitude before and we know how that turned out.
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27. Francis power
Francis power wrote:
"...But more than anything else I was left wondering if the Chinese, necessity being the mother of invention, may yet get to grips with their enormous dilemma of combining effective governance to over a billion people through a time of transition (towards a free market economy) without dispensing with single party rule."
Please consider the past few thousand years of Chinese history, including various dynastic governments and Communism, too. That is, no matter what form of government China has had during those many centuries, there has never been anything other than single party rule. Democracy never did exist in China.
Today, what was once hard-line Communism is now morphing to meet new conditions.
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@ 36 John_Rambo
Why do you say China cannot lay claim to being creative? Surely the idea that their entire economy is based upon reverse engineering is a bit outdated? Truth is China was being creative well before Europe was still living in hilltop forts, woods and caves.
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I have lived in China and with Chinese, and as a former cold warrior,
I was amazed at how similiar Chinese and Americans are. It seems counterintuitive, but I would say that
Chinese and Americans have more in common than Chinese and Vietnamese and more in common than Americans and Mexicans.
Despite that, the potential for conflict is there. Both peoples are extremely nationalistic, and believe that their respective countries place in the world is number one!
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I just look at the difference in military spending, manpower - especially per capita, GDP (again per capita), carbon emissions per head, average salary and living standards of the two countries - and laugh when Americans get paranoid over "growing" Chinese influence. Indeed, based on history and pure facts, it is the Chinese who have much to fear from the US.
Until all the above I mentioned are equal - then Americans will be seen as talking nonsense, especially to Chinese citizens, stoking the flames as they sit back comfortably in their air conditioned SUVs and spacious mansions.
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@AiHao
You have much to learn. I have been to China, Hong Kong and Singapore, and have met many expats who speak of the local Chinese - you know, the folk who have been there forever, as foreigners, dirty etc etc. They are condescending and critical of their hosts, rather than thankful for being welcomed there. I always here of preferential treatment towards the fabled "white man" in jobs, society and status. As for racism... those same white expats (many old retirees) are now married to young attractive Chinese women, with children. There are ZERO chinese supremacist groups, hooligans and chavs hunting down such couples on the street, making interracial couples' lives a misery.
Until you can say the say about America, UK and Europe, we have nothing over the Chinese when it comes to racism.
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Neither the continuing rise of China nor the downfall of the United States is inevitable. Where these two great powers will be in 2030 or 2050 depends on how well they meet their respective, tremendous challenges.
These are my views on the case of the United States.
Steep debt, slow growth, and high spending -- historian Niall Ferguson proposes -- are marked indicators of "how great powers fall." Heavy foreign indebtedness, relatively low rates of economic growth with successive losses in the manufacturing sectors and widening income disparities; gaping budget deficits (huge debt loads -- national, states, and individuals) and anxious levels of unemployment -- are ominous signs that this nation is "an empire in decline."
How do we get into these difficult circumstances? Simply stated: overreaching and overspending. In its rise from a great power to a supreme superpower, the United States has become deeply involved in costly foreign entanglements. We are drawn into one war after another. Korea. Vietnam. Iraq. Afghanistan. Others. A nation repeatedly engages in wars shall be diminished by wars. With these distractions and diversions of resources, and in our complacency, we lose out notably in manufacturing and in competitive advantages.
The U.S. economy has largely shifted from production to consumption, accompanied by rises in services, marketing (supported by sports and entertainments), and finances (including speculations, manipulations, and questionable practices or innovations).
These are sketches of some suggestive corrective measures to restore the nation's status and vigor.
1. Pax Americana has become an unaffordable, onerous burden that we should greatly reduce our loads. Scale back as much as prudently feasible U.S. military and other foreign commitments. Form or strengthen existing regional organizations with these major objectives: Promote peace, increase security, work for the advancement of common interests in the regions.
2. Strive for a "Productive, Competitive, and Adaptive Economy." The following developments could contribute materially to the formidable economic objectives: (a) revitalization of U.S. manufacturing industries and greatly increase U.S. exports to other countries; (b) vastly improve the education system to produce an able, resourceful population; (c) expand and advance research and development projects; (d) raise the quality of U.S. work force -- with particular emphases on the supply and ingenuities of personnel in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics); increase the numbers and competence levels of trained technicians; form what may be called an "academic-industrial complex"; expand and strengthen the small-business sectors.
My conclusion: If the U.S. succeeds in making significant progress toward these goals, it will continue to be a leading world power; if it stagnates or fails, then it will decline farther as a globa power.
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#43
"Truth is China was being creative well before Europe was still living in hilltop forts, woods and caves."
Unfortunately for them, that was the last time they were "creative".
The nations which end up in the history books, all seem to experience a period of growth and scientific/cultural/economic/political/military growth, flourishing, peak and then decline in any and all of those areas.
China has been through it already, the modern revival seems to only manifest in the latter three areas.
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#48
Another person who uses their select (limited) knowledge of their world to form their opinions. How many Chinese research papers have you read? Been to any cultural events, lived in, immersed in their culture? How would know of cultural progress if you can't understand the language?
I've said it before, but freedom of press in the west has hardly allowed our citizens to prosper and flourish in terms of open mindedness, tolerance or knowledge of other peoples and countries. No doubt the Chinese population also have difficulties in this regard.
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@ 48 JMay
Well as I understand it their scientists are generally considered to be there or there abouts by their peers. Perhaps this perception is wrong? Certainly the biggest headline grabber in the arts in the UK last year was an installation at the Tate Modern gallery in London by the Chinese artist Ai Weiwei - who also gets into trouble with the authorities in China over his 'activism'. Funnily enough the installation itself got into trouble with the health and safety police over here, who were acting upon laws and policies that have come into effect because of the tainting of our legal system in Europe by the American litigation culture! That's art reflecting life!!! So I make that a revival in matters cultural, scientific, economic, and military. Not sure the political one stands up to scrutiny though, but by who's standards you could say?
China has been a world super power for three thousand years, except for a brief blip of a couple of centuries when Europe and America got their day in the sun and the Chinese were experimenting with alternative ideologies. They didn't like the experiment. They are back.
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Folks in US are too EGO Driven to comprehend that Chinese folks simply want to "BETTER" their Lives and are willing to Work for it, as opposed to US creedo of Suppressing others to Advance.
It's all there in History for those Interested. Even in it's Hey-Day China expressed NO Desire for Empire, while US penchant for Oppression becomes more pronounced with Slippage.
US restrict it's means of advancement to Stepping on others, while China Knows Stepping is the Worst possible means of Advancement.
What I'm trying to explain is most evident in what Capitalism represented under US Domination compared to Capitalism Chinese Style.
Former is Predator vs Prey, and current is Opportunistic.
Driving a Hard BARGAIN is a heck of a lot different from Subjudgation. Ask Africans, their transition from Prey to Opportunity is in motion Right Now. Compare African Progress with Chinese Partnerships the past couple of decades compared to being in the Western palm for Centuries.
As Debtor US domineered it's Indebted, now as Indebted US is looking to Guilt-Trip China. The days of Heads I win, Tails you loose are over.
Shutting Down the $US Printing-Press is going to be TRAUMATIC, current Economic Crisis is only the first baby step.
To DEBTOR belongs ANXIETY in case they Don't get PAID.
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#48
"I've said it before, but freedom of press in the west has hardly allowed our citizens to prosper and flourish in terms of open mindedness, tolerance or knowledge of other peoples and countries."
I see. The freedom of the press in the west is blocking the Internet in China. Got it.
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@ #3:
"Apple - manufacturing an IPhone at a $6 cost and maintaining 60%+ margins." - With your MBA from the 80's, maybe you could share with us where you buy an iPhone for under $10?
And to finish: "the LAST nationality I would want to be was British" - Eh? What brought that out of the blue?
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"53. At 00:02am on 20 Jan 2011, Spamburger (awaiting moderation)
Where's my comment? All new members are pre-moderated initially"
Sorry, but I am one of the BBC website's most long-standing members.
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US is being paranoid-they have nothing to fear but fear itself. What if they are not number 1? Britain lost the number one spot ages ago and we are no worse off-it just means we do not have our own way all the time and we have to compromise now and then-which is not a bad thing. By the time the US loses its military dominance the Chinese would most probably have become Democtratic anyway. I think it is the US that is forcing China to arm-given the choice the chinese would probably spend as little as possible on arms. However, they are dependent on natural resources so will be competitors for the west but thus far have not used force to get their way. History has proved that they have rarely used force against others except in self defence and they have been subject to outside aggression. I think the great wall of China just about sums up their mentality-keep others out and them safe inside!
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The student I think has the best insight into the problem is Sharon Mei -- ignorance. But, there is another problem looming behind that one: the disparities between a nation who doesn't permit freedom of speech, who jails Nobel prize winners, and whose ideas about humanity and government are directly opposed to those of the U.S. I taught in an undergrad college in Guangdong Province from 2007-2009, thus had first-hand experience with the effects of a totalitarian government, especially on young people.
Recently, Hu Jintao was quoted as saying,
“China is willing to have a dialogue on human rights but that it should be based on "mutual respect and the principle of noninterference in each other's internal affairs." He acknowledged that "a lot still needs to be done in China" on human rights." Hu said China "is always committed to the protection and promotion of human rights" and that the country has made "enormous progress" that is widely recognized around the world.” (From an article in The Washington Post, "Obama holds talks with Hu, urges partnership and respect for human rights" by Debbi Wilgoren, Nia-Malika Henderson and John Pomfret, 19 January, 2011.
What Chinese leaders say in public and what happens at home are two different things. That's the source of my distrust, and I suspect, the source of distrust for many people.
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19. At 3:28pm on 19 Jan 2011, dolcem wrote:
You made a long and thoughtful post, which was interesting to read, but you are completely wrong with this statement:
"Europe would be ideal, particularly with its overvalued currency, but the European Union has very large barriers to trade to non-members (Chinese exports to Europe remain very low in comparison to what they could be). Maybe their best bet is trying to find a variety of sources, anywhere from Russia to Brazil. With Latin American economies doing so well, perhaps their growing middle classes would love an influx of cheap consumer goods from China. But I think China's best bet is to hope for the dissolution of the European Union"
Dude, the EU is arguably China's largest trading partner, and if not the largest then on a par with the US in figures. Further, exports from China into the EU pretty much match China's exports to the US in monetary trade value. The EU also doesn't have 'very large trade barriers to non members'. In fact the biggest economic trading bloc in the world is between the US and the EU, and the trade barriers put up between the two are very low- in effect both cancel each other out.
Just wanted to point that fact out. I noticed another American make the same slightly misinformed comment as well.
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@ 52 JMay
I didn't say that in post 48?
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Typo 48 = 49
Piggyback was enlightening me about the evils of the western press.
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From my experience Chinese are unsure about themselves, about their country, their future. They had hard times a few decades ago and you can still feel it (and for sure even if big cities like Shanghai enjoy a 'developed' way of life it's not the case everywhere in China, far from it). They went from a hardcore communist way of life to a hardcore capitalist way of life (and as a French I don't miss the irony of this, the US way of life won... now beware US, the student will maybe outdo the teacher...).
The problem from my point of view is that this insecurity feeling can probably be found in the government. And I'm not sure that anybody want to have a big and powerful country like this feeling insecure... and it seems that all the western world is beginning to feel insecure too.
This said I don't see the US losing their superpower rank soon.
A few words about two things that I think are really hypocrite :
- the yuan is undervalued. So what ? tell me that the US (or any country with his own money) is not playing money games in a way or another for its own benefit.
- the military : it's possible to read some crazy articles or comments about the strength and power of China military. Please. The US is pouring more money into the military than anybody else in the world (and currently 10 times more than the Chinese), and this since DECADES. So now we have china that is starting to spend a FRACTION of what the US spends and the US are getting crazy about it. The result will probably be that the US will spend even more money into the army. And as everybody knows how the US loves peace and fairness. So yes, China oncoming military power is dangerous, not in itself but because it will fuel the populist and nationalistic US military complex.
And for conclusion :
@ 23 nastynoonoo : big up !
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Obama says Mr Hu's visit set into stone the basis of realtionship between China and USA. Of course he wanted that to be the case because right now America is still the leading economy and military in the world but the reality is in the next 10 years that will not be the case so they try and buy a further 20 years. That is unlikely.
There will come a point in the next decade were china no longer fear the US militarily and no longer depend on the US economically. What USA should be doing now is plan ahead and accept that in the near future America must try and plead with China to accept the US as a junior partner on the world stage. However by presenting themselves as a rival to China, America risk being sidelined in a future world order. The EU particularly France, Germany and UK should rethink their allegiance with the US.
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JMay, do you know too much informaton is worse than no information.
when you believe in your western journalists who are NOT baised, i am afraid that they are baised.
give you an example, by looking at this bbc report,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12235625
the reporter deliberately misled you by NOT stating the fact that China has surpassed Japan as the second largest economic in the world, which had been retained proudly by Japan for the past 42 years.
if bbc reporter can hide you from this fact, of course, your trustworthy reporters can also cleverly and sophisticately mislead you without your conscious, this is what terrifying me a lot.
in the end, you believe you have the most unbaised information for your own conscience but you are not.
you need to do more soul searching.
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psycros : your absurd on China affair is a typical of a western who neither live in China, nor have a close encounter with Chinese people.
a friend of mine has his apartment demolished recently and being compensated with 2 new apartments, 1 in town and 1 in suburban. in fact, he wants the government to pay him 3 millions in cash.
in psycros simple head, the communist government cutting the throat of his own people.
another friend of mine was in the similar situation but accepted an government offer to move to a new apartment with a governmental price at 5000 yuan/m2 whilst the market price was at 8000 yuan/m2. I don't understand why an corrupted communist government needs to compensate his own people like that????????????????
is psycros lives on planet earth, or psycros is talking about another China on planet Mars, perhaps.
psycros you know NOTHING about mordern China.
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@46. Piggyback
You have too much to learn. It will tax you too heavily to manage it. You should just go home, sit down, and be quiet.
I have been to Canada, and throughout the US, and have met many expats (Chinese) who speak of the locals - you know, the folk who have been there forever, created the opportunities for the Chinese immigrants, sponsored them, supported them, welcomed them into their homes when they first arrived, as foreigners, dirty etc etc. They are condescending and critical of their hosts, rather than thankful for being welcomed there. I have seen first-hand the preferential treatment towards the fabled "chinese man" in jobs, society and status. As for racism... those same Chinese expats (many old retirees and husbands who abandoned their families and slick-trick Chinese gold-diggers (ji qi) who sought out older men and conned them into getting married to get a green card and money and "status") are now married to attractive Western men and women, with children.
There are MANY chinese supremacist groups, hooligans and criminals hunting down such couples on the street, making interracial couples' lives a misery. And worse, China's government fully supports them, quietly though, and their actions are less blatant, more insidiuous. China lacks a free press and it's easier to cover up their actions -- until you (well, a non-Chinese) experience it first hand.
Where western nations reject racial stereotypes and racist language in the vast majority of society, there is a pervasive, constant, reference to race and racial stereotypes in all segments of the population in China; it is endemic and pervasive. For awhile in the late 1990s, it began to dissapate and people in China became more tolerant. Now prejudice has returned and is being actively promoted.
Until China and all you Chinese stop refering to everyone who is not of Chinese race as "lao wai / waiguoren / da bi", until you stop actively promoting racial bias and discrimination, until you stop treating people of other races as zoo animals, you have nothing on the US, Canada, the UK or any other tolerant country.
Fortunately, not all Chinese are like you Mr. Pig. That gives me some hope that one day, the reasonable, enlightened Chinese will take over their Country and rid themselves of the likes of you.
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This thread is taking an interesting twist. Matt Frei titled it 'status anxiety' and now personal, not national status has reared its ugly head. Shanghai man @ 64 can only talk about property values and government actions to underpin them. I have realised for some time that the emerging middle class in the developed regions of China have their heart set upon emulating the American/British (and Irish/Spanish + a few more) obsession with property. They are making the same mistake of obsessing over the need to be a 'property owner'. They have acquired the same blind faith that it will always for some reason increase in value more than any other asset class and romp ahead of inflation. There were government attempts to cool things down recently, I suspect when the government realised the collapse of the economic system in the USA and Europe was caused by property greed, and that the growth boom of the decade from late nineties to late noughties was fueled by credit offered too cheaply against a collateral of assets that were hopelessly over valued (domestic properties).
Americans and Brits in particular (of western nations) are still unable to wean themselves off this obsession. They refuse to acknowledge the part it played in the economic crisis. Their politicians and media assign blame to 'greedy bankers' who were only ever executing public policy and sating the demand the media was creating. Now their treasuries print money in an attempt to prop up property values because they fear more than anything a true, mark to market revaluation of this asset class. I've been concerned for a while about what will happen when the next generation realise they have been dealt the debt that has accrued in trying to bail out their parents, leaving them in penury. That situation could turn especially nasty if the next generation were also feeling further demoralized by their national status being usurped by China in particular (who hold the debt). Combine the reduced national wealth with escalating rows about where (for example) the healthcare budget should be spent, on the young and productive or the old and unproductive, and things could become uncivilized very quickly in the west.
However, it seems equally likely that the Chinese will shoot themselves in the foot just as surely as we did! That will certainly help to level the playing field.
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If China's economy is rising because USA's economy is declining, then why should Americans support our own decline?
I believe the solution is for USA and China to cut off all trade ties...
Why are we selling them our most important resource, our techonology?
Why are we getting rid of our nuclear weapons while they get more?
Why are we stopping production of some of our military weaponry while they are rapidly expanding production of their military weaponry, including hteir first Stealth and battleships?
If I was President of USA, I would refuse to do trade with China and I would also give them their pandas back, since we can't keep the offspring anyway...
My opinion is that the longer we do business with China, the worse things will get for us...
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Shekon wrote: Might sound strange but as an Indian living in US, I feel good for China and I wish that an Asian nation leads the world.
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Its not 'strange', Shekon.
Its called being UNPATRIOTIC...
And if you don't want USA to be number one, perhaps its time to ask yourself why am I here?
Because we don't need unpatriotic foreigners...
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Shekon wrote: Asian are the best soldiers and can be super aggressive in any sphere of life - combat, business, education, careers, family etc
Please do not make stereotypical generalizations about us Asians.
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Yes, I will remember that, your words, superaggressive...
Which is why USA needs to cut off ALL ties with China...
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Shekon wrote: Europeans and Americans - like it or not, Asia will rule and the future belongs to us.
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Only because they stole techonology from us...
Its like earning a grade that does not actually belong to you...
Basically, its ARTIFICIAL...
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What would our best solution be?
Nuke China!!!
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And yes, we know there's an 'unofficial' Chinese invasion right now in USA in the form of these mass amounts of Chinese students...
There are millions of smart poor American kids denied entry to our best universities because the foreign students, especially ones from China, are taking all hte spots and because they are rich, while many American kids who are smart but poor, cannot afford it...
So foreign students, especially teh Chinese, are also harming America by taking away spots that should be reserved for American students only...
I am definitely anti-China...
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Jmay, you're doing it again! Phrasing things selectively. Read carefully what I said - that despite absolute fredoms in the west, we are no more enlightened about other peoples than those without those freedoms. Can you honestly disagree with that? But like I said (repetition is something required for ignorance, I find), you, and many others are happy to dance around the issue, preferring the easy "we're better than them because of x" mindset.
#AiHao
Why the constant implication that I am Chinese? Unlike you, I'm not making it personal. Nor am I Chinese - if that somehow devalues my opinion somewhat. Ironic that you tell me to "sit down and be quiet" - how condescending. Are you like that to all Chinese people you come across regarding their views? If I were Chinese, would you want all Chinese who don't support your blatantly prejudiced views to shut up? Talk about hypocrisy.
As to your copycat post, instead of making a valid response you have simply replaced a very real occurence in China to something that simply doesn't make sense. In jobs, money and status Chinese citizens - even those born in America, UK and Europe - have nowhere near the privileges (or lack of abuse) shared by Western (white) expats in the Far East. I also notice you had to include "women" along with men... as you know that it is mostly Chinese women marrying white men, not the other way round.
And you seem a bit vague with thse gangs hunting out mixed race couples in China. On my last visit I was with a group, 2 retirees with young attractive Chinese women on their arms... none of the male locals blinked. I would shudder to think the response of an old ethnic minority man in the west. As for being called lao wai all the time... oh please, I'd rather be called that than have my property graffitied, constantly beaten up and put on a "watch list" by white supremacists - yes, a white extremist group does this in the UK for "successful" minorities.
I've also noticed that you said "all you Chinese" - which is actually quite a common phrase said by expats in China. You talk about racism, but is it really a case of "do as I say, not as I do"?
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#70. At 3:51pm on 20 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:
I am definitely anti-China...
You don't say! Has it occured to you that the Chinese students might actually be clever too? If they can make the grades and fill up the entrance criteria that home students can't, good? Most of the Chinese students here go into law, business, engineering and computer science... compare and contrast to the all time high applications to arts, social sciences, languages, media studies from home students... you have your answer!
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@ LucyJ
I am utterly baffled as to how one is able to harbor such deliberately ignorant and simplistic views in terms of world affairs. It really is a cause for concern if you are truly an American - it certainly helps perpetuate the 'ignorant American' stereotype from abroad, without a doubt.
I understand we are all entitled to our opinions, but comments like "Nuke China!!!" is hardly what I would consider a compelling argument for the future of American foreign policy. Nor would I give a passing glance to such grandoise assumptions as, "..smart poor American kids denied entry to our best universities because of foreign students..."
Cite your sources, or is this something you've conjured up in order to justify your ill-concealed contempt for anything foreign?
I suggest you educate yourself first before you make such blatantly prejudiced comments. Such ignorance has no place in building a better future for America.
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There is no perfect country in this world.Suggestions
for China:
Keep on reforming and tackling your issues
for US:
Mind your own business and take away your double-standard biased view point on China and your sense of superiority. Besides US, there are Asia, Europe and Africa on this planet
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Lucy J is an obvious biased racist. Everyone is equal to enjoying good lives whether he is from China or US.
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Interesting perspective... There have been a lot of media outlets that have had their say on this topic since these scores were published and I while I think that it is great that China is really pushing education (note the sample size) I think that there has been a HUGE oversight here. Perspective... The US is a immediate cause and effect society (Republican motto). If I do this, I will get that. US students have to take several tests over their educational careers at least two a year for domestic and more once they get to high school for colleges. The fact is if the test doesn't help you get into highschool/college no one cares. I had friends that went to MIT and Ivy League schools whose parents told them they didn't even have to show up to the highschool state testing because it held no weight on their future (colleges don't look at it; only SAT/ACT). There is so much pressure/competition to get into the right highschools and colleges that these types of test really are not taken seriously. How many students tried, showed up or gave half effort it is hard to say but I can pretty much guarantee as someone who went through the system that most weren't worried about how their score looked next to some teenager in Shanghai.
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Oh and by the way, I export US agricultural goods... to China. They will be a great country and some day the worlds leader but the only way they can sustain their rise is a with a strong US. It will be interesting to see how long the communist regime stands and even more so to watch how it evolves.
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Piggyback wrote: You don't say! Has it occured to you that the Chinese students might actually be clever too? If they can make the grades and fill up the entrance criteria that home students can't, good?
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I never said they weren't clever...sure, they are very clever and intelligent...the point is, American students are losing out their spots to foreigners in our universities...
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Piggyback wrote: Most of the Chinese students here go into law, business, engineering and computer science... compare and contrast to the all time high applications to arts, social sciences, languages, media studies from home students... you have your answer!
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Yes and why are they here, Piggy?
To learn USA techonology and take it home to China?
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Sorry Lucy, but I wasn't aware that universities offered state technological secrets freely. If you mean general science and technology, that is available to any literate student who bothers to read about it, well I think you'll find many powerful and advanced technologies available in the public domain. Science and engineering was never meant to be closed to specific nations. Indeed, if developed countries had not shared things like green tech to developing and third world countries, we would have global food/energy/resource shortages all year round, every year.
As for your earlier comment... "Giving foreigners who want to destroy us"
need I remind you:
69. At 3:49pm on 20 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:
What would our best solution be?
Nuke China!!!
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Like I said before, the Chinese have more to fear from us than vice versa.
And I suggest you actualy watch the Newsnight vid that Matt has posted above... you'll find these "foreigners" want anything but to destroy America...
I think the most telling part was when Matt interviewed the little kid in that school:
"So are your parents from China?"
"No."
"Where are they from?"
"...South Carolina."
Poor kid. How many like him will suffer because of the rising resentment of Americans (such as yourself Lucy) towards China?
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#63
"JMay, do you know too much informaton is worse than no information."
The Chinese communist government wants people to believe this. Somehow, the rest of the world is able to function just fine, even with "too much information". But the Chinese people can't. Why? Not old enough yet?
"the reporter deliberately misled you by NOT stating the fact that China has surpassed Japan as the second largest economic in the world, which had been retained proudly by Japan for the past 42 years."
A minute ago you were complaining that too much information is bad. Now you complain that not enough information was provided.
Here is the simple moral to your story. The Chinese people don't seem to be mature enough, to think for themselves, and therefore the government has taken that task upon itself. It will decide what the population will and will not know and it will ensure that if there is any misleading to be done, it will be done properly by the government.
But none of this is really relevant to this thread, everyone knows China is a censored society even is everyone is "misleading" you by NOT mentioning it constantly :)
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@ 79 LucyJ
World class universities, and we have a few here in the UK too (Oxford and Cambridge come to mind, amongst others) are businesses competing in a global market place for the best students. You seem to have a rare sense of entitlement to the ones in the USA? Most American students I have known do not have that at all, although admittedly many British ones do. You also seem to be a protectionist, which to anyone remotely knowledgeable about world affairs makes you appear foolish. I can easily see why a top class university might perhaps have passed you over? Is that what has happened?
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Lucy,
America was founded on the idea that people should be able to succeed not on the basis of their place of birth, or their religion, or the social status of their family, but on the basis of their ability.
That is the promise that the Statue of Liberty held out, and holds out, to all those who have come to America's shores: the liberty to succeed, or fail, based on your own abilities and efforts.
These Chinese students are merely doing what our ancestors did before us.
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When I used to go to the various graduation and awards ceremonies at the schools, virtually 100% of the academic and music prizes were won by the children of families from east Asia, predominantly China, but also Korea, Japan, and Vietnam. On occasion a prize would be won by a child whose parents came from India, or Russia, or Iran. But that was about it.
The children of baby boomers raised in the whitebread suburbs in the 50's, 60's and 70's? Nowhere to be seen. They win prizes in sports, but even then, relatively few.
Why?
Because those prize-winning Chinese kids are pretty smart, sure, but more than that, because they work really, really hard. They work hard in ways that we have forgotten.
We used to think that people who were smart, who worked hard, who were industrious, and who gave good customer service were to be admired. Those were the values upon which America was built.
But we now have an entire entertainment industry that, every day, a hundred times a day, saturates our children with the message that doing well in school isn't cool. That young people should not respect or obey their parents, their teachers, the police, or anybody else. That it is important to be an individual and to disdain anybody who works hard and lives a clean life. That every problem in life can be solved in an hour: all you have to do is pull out a gun and shoot the bad guy in the last five minutes.
Instead our children learn to dress badly, to speak badly, to write badly, to be selfish, to be lazy, never to clean up after themselves or be tidy. Never to show self-discipline. Never to learn about public affairs or to learn to care about their community.
TV provides an endless diet of programming that teaches them that the way to do things in life involves big cars and bigger trucks, violence, guns, and disrespect. It teaches them that if they drink enough beer they will win tickets to the Super-Bowl and get to party forever with only-too-willing sexy women wearing very little clothing.
Where in our society are children supposed to learn the virtues of hard work?
Where in our society of instant gratification are children supposed to learn the virtues of patience?
Where in our society of easy credit do our children learn the virtue of saving for something until you can afford it?
Where, in our society of constantly glorifying public ignorance, do our children learn that being well read really does matter?
Where, in our society of glorifying people whose response to any problem is physical violence, do our children learn that the ability to write a good business letter is actually a fairly rare and highly valued skill?
Where, in our society in which every other prime time TV show includes people being killed with guns (and so guns are the solution to every problem ...), do our children learn that being organized, and having the ability to get people to work together toward a common goal is an even more rare and more valuable skill than the ability to write a proper letter?
The baby boomer parents?
Some hope. The laziest, most spoiled, most apathetic generation in the history of the planet has passed on its traits to its children.
So our children are going to be working at low wage jobs as the employees of people who worked harder in school, learned to obey the law, learned to be thoughtful and considerate, learned to value education and knowledge, of people who learned not to put so much emphasis on individualism, and to put a lot more emphasis on working hard.
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People who work harder and better ought to be rewarded better, too. That's what we believe in a democracy with a free market economy.
Those are the qualities America used to value.
I don't begrudge those kids their success. They've worked for it. They deserve it. They merit your congratulations, not your scorn.
And our own kids need to pick up their socks - figuratively and literally. That failure is our failure, because we have failed to instill self-discipline in our children, and we have failed to motivate them to strive to meet high standards.
Nobody to blame but ourselves.
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#71
"Jmay, you're doing it again! Phrasing things selectively. Read carefully what I said - that despite absolute fredoms in the west, we are no more enlightened about other peoples than those without those freedoms."
Therefore, censorship = freedom of the press and there is no advantage to the latter.
Thanks, but I understood you perfectly the first time. It does get funnier upon repetition though :)
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@ 81 JMay
Every society is censored. I stumbled upon a really funny one in another forum I follow last week. The Canadian censors have just banned for radio play the song 'Money For Nothing' by the British rock group Dire Straights (released in 1985 and a staple of AOR and drive time radio stations around the world ever since - actually from the album that sort of launched the compact disc format). The reason was that someone from Newfoundland complained about the lyric "That little faggot's got his own jet airplane". The beautiful irony is that Mark Knopler (not gay) who wrote the song actually got the words from overhearing a conversation between two men working in a white goods retailer who had not recognised him but happened to be discussing him (disparagingly). So actually he was sort of writing about himself, or rather how he was perceived by these two blue collar guys, using their own words. Also the radio edit has different words, but I digress. Apparently several Canadian radio stations responded to this astonishing decision by putting the song on auto repeat and playing it for an hour at a time, several times over. That was last week in North America, and you don't think your information is censored! But don't fret. Just because it gets censored doesn't mean it doesn't get out...
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@InterestedForeigner
I respect your ideas and I also agreed with your overall assessment of generation y. However, I would not make them out to be angels that have come to solve all that is wrong with the world.
They come from a society of sink or swim, eat or be eaten and they will do whatever it takes to get a leg up. The stereotypes say shrewd and cut throat and I have never seen any outside of that. I have literally sat between two Chinese traders brag about how cheap they got product and how many months late they were too pay for it.
They are a communist country with a different culture and different history. They may never see eye to eye and I don't think they really want to either. The sooner we see that the sooner we will make progress in our relations. And I hope that US truly has anxiety because then maybe whether warranted or not light a fire under this government to start making decisions that are geared for global competitiveness.
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#85
"Every society is censored."
To an extent or another, yes. However, when the censorship is a matter of governmental policy, it is indicative of a totalitarian regime. This is a governmental mandated ignorance. It's not the banal type of ignorance, which is natural in everyone, this is a state imposed variety.
There is no comparison in a matter of degrees, in the game of relativity everything is permissible.
It's like the government demanding that everyone wear horse blinders.
There are 2 or 3 other countries with similar policies towards the Internet. Saudi Arabia, Iran and a couple of other gulf states. Oh, and China. The former have the excuse of the religious complexes. The latter...?
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Trade IMBALANCE is purely from US ADDICTION to CHEAPER Chinese Goods, and similarly as US blame Poppy growing in Afghanistan and Cocaine production in Colombia for the it's never-ending demand to stay HIGH, the Cultural Finger-Pointing will take priority over Solving the Problem.
The notion that China should buy whatever US produces just for the sake of making US Feel-Good is contrary to Capitalism as evolved by US.
Simple truth is You've been Soundly Beaten at your Own Game and no amount of CRYING will change that FACT. There is still jostling at the Gravy-Train even though it is running on EMPTY.
China has already Vanquished US Economically and harbour NO Ambitions for Empire or Military SUPREMACY, but will ensure they possess the 'MEANS', just in case.
Frankly, I'm impressed at China's lack of ARROGANCE over it's Unprecedented Progress, a concept Totally Foreign to US EGOS, even in Debt some still cannot control their WEAKNESS.
BUT! there's always a But: There is most of Planet Earth who are acutely aware that US was/is Directly/Indirectly RESPONSIBLE for their Inflicted MISERY. Downside of MEDDLING has to be RECKONED sometime, and it's a long list. The SHAME is that Dealing JUSTLY would've been CHEAPER and FRIENDLIER.
After an INVASION and 10 years of OCCUPATION of Afghanistan with accompanying Barbarism to facilitate (work-in-progress) Turkmenistan Oil/Gas to Port, China quietly NEGOTIATED, Built it's Pipeline and started Drawing Oil from same source Last year without TRAUMA. Diff in style is as STARK as Success vs Failure.
Someone asked the question: WHOM would I prefer to Rule this World then, US or China?
NO ONE is Entitled to RULE this World. Recent Historical FACT is, US is the only country displaying such Ambitions since WWII, and Drowning in Debt still persist with FAILED Strategy of Military Impositions.
US ATTITUDE dictates more CONFLICT before things get Better. VAST Armies devour Vast Resources which US Productivity is Incapable of Covering. Go figure.
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77. At 8:00pm on 20 Jan 2011, LucyJ wrote:
Malkava wrote: Such ignorance has no place in building a better future for America.
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Giving foreigners who want to destroy us access to our technology and teaching them rather than our own American kids has no place in building a better future for America...
Let them attend your universities...
They simply don't belong here- they belong in their homelands...
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Iraq tried saying that to the us, so did Afghanistan, as did Vietnam. I am in China at the moment and the amount of US students here in the university is incredible.
I do love that last bit,, "they belong in their home lands", one thing the American people have never been very good at, haha. ignoring that 600 years ago it was only native Americans on the North American continent and they held surprising similarity's with the Mongolians. Many historians believe the Mongolians did find and colonies the US first (North eastern passage from Asia to North America used to be frozen). so play nice, get back to the EU and let Mongolia have its continent back.
regarding the general post here, if China did raise its rmb value, then all the American company's over here would shift to India or any other place where labor is cheap.. then America in all its wisdom would blame the next county for its value of its currency being to low. Why dont you get rid of minimum wage so US factory's could become competitive????????
Also with regards to China its self, If you look at their exports, true they are high, 200billion usd more than America sells to china (not really that much now is it,, considering how much the US spends on useless ...things... like elections and McDonalds), however their home market has picked up massively and they are now producing for the Chinese people. They do not want to rely on America.
About planning for the future, they build high speed rail lines (100's of km per day is being built), they are digging a huge tunnel from north to south china where they can transport water to the areas that need it the most and AND using only gravity, (think about that. no other country in the world has ever attempted anything like it). there is a housing bubble going on here so they implement a tax to stop the bubble in its tracks (learn t from Americas mistakes there, I only hope the US can learn from its mistakes both at home and from its operations from around the world).
we are all going to die one day so dont take life to seriously.
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OHhh foot note,
Japan was doing very well, then America jumped in and killed it for them. China has seen this and wont fall for the same tricks.
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85. At 10:01pm on 20 Jan 2011, Francis power wrote:
@ 81 JMay
"Every society is censored. I stumbled upon a really funny one in another forum I follow last week. The Canadian censors have just banned for radio play the song 'Money For Nothing' by the British rock group Dire Straights ..."
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As it turns out, the body recommending that the song not be played in its original long version is in fact an industry body to which the broadcasters voluntarily belong. It was one of those industry attempts to voluntarily self-regulate to forestall government regulation. So this is actually pre-emptive industry self-sensorship, taken to its most ridiculous limit.
As several other commentators have noted, the complainant must be the only Newfoundlander alive who was offended. Newfoundlanders have a reputation for having a pretty robust and earthy sense of humour - if there is a national trait of Newfoundlanders, that might well be it.
And, finally on this point, Newfoundland is a wonderful, wonderful place to visit. If you haven't been there, do yourself a favour and make the trip this summer.
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87. At 11:13pm on 20 Jan 2011, JMay wrote:
There are 2 or 3 other countries with similar policies towards the Internet. Saudi Arabia, Iran and a couple of other gulf states. Oh, and China. The former have the excuse of the religious complexes. The latter...?
If you had a country with 1.3 billion official inhabitants and maybe an extra 800 million unofficial inhabitants. how would you keep them happy?
China is stopping anti chinese sentiment from reaching the chinese people. much like western country's stop Muslim extremist sites from being viewed in their respective countrys. China does not want the Chinese people to grow angry with the western county's so they censor more than most countrys, I agree allot of what they censor does not need to be blocked, but as China is China and nothing do to with us, we have to let them do what they feel is best for their citizens.
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#92
"China does not want the Chinese people to grow angry with the western county's so they censor more than most countrys.."
This is a new one. So the Chinese government is really protecting the West from the ire of the Chinese people, an anger that would inevitably arise if they were allowed to think for themselves.
The censorship then is nothing but a benign form of parental supervision and mature guidance, intended to prevent the anti-western tantrums of an immature population, correct?
In no way would that anger be directed at the Chinese government, but it would be aimed at the Western world. In fact, the West should be grateful for the Chinese government and its wise policy.
Nostradamus has nothing on George Orwell...
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@ 91 Interestedforigner
I have yet to visit Newfoundland, although I have seen it from the air. However, I did have the privilege of having a Newfoundland dog in my care for its life, a joy I shall never forget. And I very much intend to visit that Island.
If the back story to that silly Dire Straights saga is as you say I'm not surprised. But you have to admit, its pretty funny! I think the story was broken by Rolling Stone magazine. I may be wrong.
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@85
Every society is censored. I stumbled upon a really funny one in another forum I follow last week. The Canadian censors have just banned for radio play the song 'Money For Nothing' by the British rock group Dire Straights (released in 1985 and a staple of AOR and drive time radio stations around the world ever since - actually from the album that sort of launched the compact disc format). The reason was that someone from Newfoundland complained about the lyric "That little faggot's got his own jet airplane".... Also the radio edit has different words,
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The last sentence is the only part of this "funny" tale you shared with us all that is factual. The "censors" did not ban the song they said that the album version that includes the word f*ggot cannot be played on public airways. The decision requires radio stations to play what you call the "radio edit" (which is American speak for their censored version). The fact that you call the Canadian version censorship and the US version the "radio edit" seems to indicate you don't understand that a radio edit is a censored version. I also wonder if you consider bleeping the other "f" word on American radio stations censorship or simply "radio edits" in the US but censorship in Canada?
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@ 95 samalex
I refer you to Rolling Stone magazine. I expect they have an approved version of why they printed the story! Personally I find the need to do multiple mixes for air play offensive, especially as mixing and mastering engineers are expected to compress every last milligram of dynamics out of a song just to make leap out of a car's speakers for the sake of selling advertising. But that's a form of self censorship I suppose, artistic compromise for commercial gain.
To get back on topic I have microphones in my collection that were manufactured in China. There have been a number of comments above that assume all high tech manufacturing in China is 'reverse engineered'. As if the Chinese are not capable of developing their own innovations. Not true. The microphone manufacturer I refer to most assuredly designs its own products, which are innovative and highly respected (Stevie Wonder uses one of their tube mics for personal preference) and designed personally by their CEO. Who is Chinese and also an internationally revered classical musician. They have built their own precision tooling for their factory in China and whilst their products are not exactly cheap they represent astonishing value for money given their very high quality. All Chinese. Best sellers in Europe, where top end microphone technology was invented. Go China.
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73. At 6:57pm on 20 Jan 2011, Malkava wrote:
@ LucyJ
I am utterly baffled as to how one is able to harbor such deliberately ignorant and simplistic views in terms of world affairs. It really is a cause for concern if you are truly an American - it certainly helps perpetuate the 'ignorant American' stereotype from abroad, without a doubt.
I understand we are all entitled to our opinions, but comments like "Nuke China!!!" is hardly what I would consider a compelling argument for the future of American foreign policy. Nor would I give a passing glance to such grandoise assumptions as, "..smart poor American kids denied entry to our best universities because of foreign students..."
Cite your sources, or is this something you've conjured up in order to justify your ill-concealed contempt for anything foreign?
I suggest you educate yourself first before you make such blatantly prejudiced comments. Such ignorance has no place in building a better future for America.
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Malkava:
LucyJ and her views are dime-a-dozen in the USA. She's the closest thing on this board to the American man-on-the-street. I'm an American too so I am telling you from experience.
Whichever country you come from, rest assured that less than half of Americans can even find it on a world map. There is a real disdain here for academia and education in general from a huge segment of the population.
There is also an ultra-nationalistic streak here, nationalistic to the point of absurdity. The USA isn't seen as a citizen of the world. It is seen as the all-deserving, all-benevolent light of the world. Even competition from other nations is seen as some kind of a threat and, of course, they must be cheating if they get ahead of us.
Not everybody in the USA is LucyJ, but the results of our last national election are telling.
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I am not scared of China.If you ask me WW1 changed the Global World into a fractured one,after WW2 America and Russia emerged as Global Powers but Why? Because Europe and Asia were broken.America stopped being a Super Power in the 90's if you ask me.I am not sad for our nation either.Europe is wealthier than we are,In fact Europe is wealthier than U.S. and China combined.The real question is not if the U.S. is losing it's lone Super Power stance which I think already happened and was temporary anyway,for Europe to heal.It's whether Europe or Asia is going to be the dominate culture?We are going back to the old World Order.It okay for Americans our standard of living isn't going to lessen,in fact it's better for us that we go back to being isolationists with military but open with Trade.We have always been merchants even when it interferes with what the military wants, we are still merchants.In fact we would be better off if foreign obligations were scaled back dramatically.Europe spread Communism,Democracy,and Socialism,Banking,Industrial Revolution etc....What is Europe plans is actually the real question.
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97. At 5:06pm on 21 Jan 2011, DenverGuest wrote:
"... but the results of our last national election are telling."
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Sadly so.
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@ 97 DenverGuest
"Not everybody in the USA is LucyJ" - We know, don't worry friend.
@ 98 faeyth
I'm glad you have set out the view that America has never actually had any 'imperial' aspirations, which it hasn't. It never really wanted to fight anybody, just sell them something, which it does. It has protected its markets, this is true. And fair play! Far too much rubbish gets uttered about 'American Empire'. Myth. And you ask what is Europe going to do? A very fair question. Wish I knew (as a European).
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Sorry Matt, way off topic - or maybe not.
Anxiety and xenophobia? Well, consider:
I have been meaning for some time to compliment the BBC on its "Day in Pictures" feature.
Here is today's link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12249304
Almost every day there is something tremendously uplifting about this feature. Perhaps it has something to do with the universality of the human condition.
When my grandfather was born, a high percentage of the world's trade was carried in sailing ships. Yet we can see, instantly, in colour, vivid, bright and full of life, images from the most remote corners of the world, mysterious, dangerous, romantic and unimaginably inaccessible in his day, yet seemingly around the corner in ours. Miraculous.
Who is thy neighbour?
We are all neighbours.
Such an amazing world.
Bravo, Auntie Beeb.
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@71.
What now, if it isn't the kettle calling the pot!
Mr. Pig, you exhibit the very qualities you are so eager to accuse others of. If you are not Chinese, you are certainly an apologist. And, just for the record, your "so much better than everyone" tone in all your posts is what got you the replies you have.
"As to your copycat post, instead of making a valid response you have simply replaced a very real occurence in China to something that simply doesn't make sense."
Perhaps in your narrow experience. But that was my previous point. You seem to have tunnelvision - only seeing what you want to see.
In the US, Chinese people (and some rightly so) are considered technical whizes. Many Chinese are exceptionally good at programming, engineering, and many scientific disciplines. This creates a strong prejudice in the marketplace against non-Chinese who are assumed to be "less than" and creates a pattern of favoritism based on ethnicity, irrespective of actual ability.
Clearly, from your (skip the adjective) post, you have no experience with this.
"...2 retirees with young attractive Chinese women on their arms... none of the male locals blinked."
Again, you seemed to have missed the point. Gold-diggers and "fancy girls" in China have been around for a long, long, time. That they happen to have been with Westerners or old Chinese men is not of concern to most. They are what they are.
Nor would it appear you have stayed much in China. If you had, perhaps you might have seen something other than the obvious. Especially for anyone who is not Chinese, living there is quite different than visiting.
Yes. To be sure, you go visit China. Spend a few days with your nice expat friends and maybe your Chinese friends (who, perhaps like mine, are not racists), and then go home and sit down and be quiet and think about what you have yet to learn.
My point throughout has been that Americans are not afraid of fair competition from China or anywhere else. We are an incredibly inventive, creative, lot. What is of concern is that unfortunate problem of excessive nationalism based on race which shows itself in China (and is reflected by quite a few Chinese elsewhere) and which could result in more serious problems. As the young man in the article said, he would not be welcome on either side - a traitor to one and a spy to the other - not because of any action on his part, but merely because he was born. With that attitude, I would welcome him as an American.
To be clear, when I first look at a person, I see a human being. Then, out of respect for that human being, I recognize their race - as a positive characteristic. It is only when that person becomes abusive towards me that I change my opinion. After being the target of discrimination and more, I have found that social groups matter. My personal preference is dialog, not diatribe. Sometimes, there is no good option to avoid abuse and the only choice is to take a stand.
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@ 101 Interestedforigner
I applaud your reminder that the world has become far more accessible to great swathes of its population. But do remember, those sailing ships that carried the trade and communication your grandparents (and mine) relied upon were capable of reaching most all the same places that ships today reach. Todays world isn't any larger, just faster.
@ 102 AiHao
You want to watch those Chinese women you know. One of the most notorious pirates in history was a Chinese woman running nine Junks out of Shanghai. Had the China Sea on tenterhooks for years, this was in the 1920s. She was a Chinese woman. There're not all just a pretty face!
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Off topic:
Does anyone know what happened to Mark's blog? Seems like it’s been taken down.
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Damian Gramatacus piece about China wanting to appease America during the state visit by Hu I find laughable. Gramatacus need to get a sense of reality. Hu demanded respect from US for a state visit but America tried very hard not to give him that so for the last year or so tried to show China that they are still the only superpower by being confrontational. The US interferred in territorial dispute China has with their neighbour, arms sale to Taiwan, engineered the Cheonen sinking by blaming its on N Korea provoking incidents allowing its to send its military for wargames close to Chinese coast, tacid support of Japanese aggressive behaviour on Daiyu islands. China responded by cutting military ties with US, threaten to impose sanction on US companies trading in arms to Taiwan, prevented the UN from blaming N Korea for Cheonen sinking, tacid support of N Korean shelling of S Korean Island, suspended raw earth shipment to Japan, got US ally the Phillipines to boycot the Nobel prize ceremony in exchange for economic & military aid, put into operation the world first "carrier killer" missiles, unveailed a new stealth fighter.
Who threw the first stone? It wasnt China. The last 12 months America want China to give them a reason why they need to respect China's economic and military might by testing their rival because being a superpower cant be handed on a plate, you need to earn it. China answered and ticked all the boxes. The US realise they cannot contain China's rise any longer so Hu's state visit is an opportunity for Obama to tell the Americans that the Chinese can no longer be contain and is a power of equal that America owes a lot of money to and cannot afford to be confrontational to in the future.
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"...the Chinese can no longer be contain and is a power of equal that America owes a lot of money to and cannot afford to be confrontational to in the future."
Why not? What will China do? Stop making iPods? Boycott US companies? Hehehe. Imagine the US boycotting all Chinese products for 1 or 2 years.
Without the US exports, China is a feudal state barely able to feed itself.
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Jmay, a typical childish mentality using a computer probaly made in China no doubt.
"Without the US exports, China is a feudal state barely able to feed itself." China don't want to import from US because they can make them cheaper hence the trade imbalance. The Americans practocally begged China to import more from them to safeguard American jobs. Go back to school and study economics.
Despite nonesense from the great unwashed China's economy is not export dependent. The size of domestic demand is even greater. Just that other countries relies more importing from China for more affordable goods.
The US is not the biggest trading partner of China. US cant afford to pick a fight with its banker. US is in dept and cannot fund its military and wars without asking China for money. America is a bankrupt state living on foreign aid. What happen to the USSR may well happen to the US in 10 years time that why Obama bows to Hu like a subject to his Emperor.
Hu is the daddy.
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#107
"Jmay, a typical childish mentality using a computer probaly made in China no doubt."
Wrong. It's made in Taiwan.
"Despite nonesense from the great unwashed China's economy is not export dependent. The size of domestic demand is even greater. Just that other countries relies more importing from China for more affordable goods."
Really? Let's see what those idiots from the CIA have to say about China.
"The Chinese government faces numerous economic development challenges, including: (a) reducing its high domestic savings rate and correspondingly low domestic demand; (b) sustaining adequate job growth for tens of millions of migrants and new entrants to the work force; (c) reducing corruption and other economic crimes; and (d) containing environmental damage and social strife related to the economy's rapid transformation. Economic development has progressed further in coastal provinces than in the interior, and approximately 200 million rural laborers and their dependents have relocated to urban areas to find work. One demographic consequence of the "one child" policy is that China is now one of the most rapidly aging countries in the world. Deterioration in the environment - notably air pollution, soil erosion, and the steady fall of the water table, especially in the north - is another long-term problem. China continues to lose arable land because of erosion and economic development."
Hmmm. Seems that their analysts and your opinion are quite divergent about the internal demand. And then there is this rumour about the drinking water running out "especially in the north".
Let's have a look at what China imports and exports.
Exports:
$1.506 trillion (2010 est.)
country comparison to the world: 2
$1.204 trillion (2009 est.)
Exports - commodities:
electrical and other machinery, including data processing equipment, apparel, textiles, iron and steel, optical and medical equipment
Exports - partners:
US 20.03%, Hong Kong 12.03%, Japan 8.32%, South Korea 4.55%, Germany 4.27% (2009)
Imports:
$1.307 trillion (2010 est.)
country comparison to the world: 3
$954.3 billion (2009 est.)
Imports - commodities:
electrical and other machinery, oil and mineral fuels, optical and medical equipment, metal ores, plastics, organic chemicals
Imports - partners:
Japan 12.27%, Hong Kong 10.06%, South Korea 9.04%, US 7.66%, Taiwan 6.84%, Germany 5.54% (2009)
China imports the raw materials to produce the stuff it exports.
Why would the local demand be low?
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$7,400 (2010 est.)
country comparison to the world: 128
Maybe because you can't demand much on 600 dollars a month?
"US cant afford to pick a fight with its banker."
Why not? The money in the bank, is printed in the US. Ask the OPEC guys how it worked out for them, the last time they tried to get snotty :)
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DenverGuest and Interestedforeigner,
I know you don’t like the mid-term results, but, in my opinion, a Republican house with a Democrat president better represents the US, than a swamp of one party. And maybe some level-headed, fair actions will result. It doesn’t have to be gridlock. Or is my hope springing eternal again?
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Re #83 and fouling up the youth:
“...our society of constantly glorifying public ignorance....” is the worst thing to me, in that long list.
#86 PistonHonda said it about China. I especially agree with: “And I hope that US truly has anxiety because then maybe whether warranted or not light a fire under this government to start making decisions that are geared for global competitiveness.”
I’m not afraid of that competition, or partnership. China has its own problems. We need to wise up to that, and to our own problems. One being our youth’s and not-so-youthful’s bizarrely paraded lack of interest in knowledge. I can’t decide if it represents the majority or not (hopefully not).
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rodidog,
I was a little crushed to see Mardell gone, so I can’t imagine how you old blogger friends might feel. (Your post made me think about the last scene in the wonderful movie Fandango, where Judd Nelson just wants to say so-long to someone – bittersweet.) And I wonder about Mark himself. It seems unusual that he would exit without notice. Maybe it’s temporary. With the upcoming US political climate, the BBC will open something up at some time.
__________________________________________________________
Re Day in Pics: I love the one of the Indian farmers, protesting on the tracks.
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The US should have "status anxiety" over rising China.
China's rise is positively correlated with America's decline.
I cannot believe that the best days are ahead for the United States.
Citizens Against Government Waste: Set 20 years in the future, a Chinese professor is lecturing students about the fall of the American Empire. Reckless spending led to crushing debt, he explains, before adding: "Of course we owned most of their debt so now they work for us." The message: America, be scared of China...OR:
America, examine what you did wrong that China has trillions in reserves and you sit with:
- thousands of jobs lost and
- several states trying to figure out how to declare bankruptcy as they confront crushing debts and dwindling revenues.
Congress persons and Senators from the two major political parties have called on bankruptcy lawyers and a former House speaker, Newt Gingrich, to come up with a solution.
According to estimates, some states face a combined pension fund shortfall of trillions. Proponents say bankruptcy could permit a state to alter its contractual promises and get out from under massive debts.
Nevertheless, states cannot seek protection in the US Bankruptcy Court as they are considered "sovereign". And the EU thought that it had sovereign debt problems!
Even the old standby, a bailout is fraught with uncertainty as major constitutional barriers would have to be removed or circumvented.
In addition to States, some American cities are running a high risk of bankruptcy. The City of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, is said to have received legal advice to petition for bankruptcy. Hamtramck City, Wayne County, Michigan has also sought bankruptcy protection to cover deficits. The request has (because of problems mentioned above), been turned down by the State of Michigan.
It appears that the United States is suffering from severe financial hardship without a solution in sight.
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It's good to see some of those who post on Mark Mardells blog here - but where is the blog? Why on earth is there no information available? I've emailed - and put comments at the end of other blogs and there is no word. Hope he's OK.
Come on BBC, keep the faith of your customers.
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It's not a matter of morality or even intention. When China has the commercial and military supremacy, then it WILL use it. It goes with the territory. What regional or global superpower has not done so in the past ?? The only questions are "when" and "in what way".
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112. At 7:39pm on 22 Jan 2011, John Davies wrote:
"What regional or global superpower has not done so in the past ??"
__________
The United States.
In the immediate post war America could simply have used its then nuclear monopoly to dictate terms to all.
It did not.
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17. Kurtinco Wrote:
There are so many Europeans prattling on about the “decline” of the United States. It would be quite funny is it weren’t so pathetic. You see, it is the Europeans, lead by stunted Brits with runt complexes, who suffer from “status anxiety”. So in an effort to comfort and sooth yourselves over your loss, long ago, of stature you jump on any bandwagon that attempts to demoralized the great people of the United States of America.
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Oh! ra..ra..ra..
Give us a break.
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79. Lucyj wrote:
To learn USA techonology and take it home to China?
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What comes around goes around. ie;
USA Technology was largely imported by foriegn brains,other know-how skills and materials
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#115
"USA Technology was largely imported by foriegn brains,other know-how skills and materials"
The entire US is imported. If you had a point to make, you forgot to mention it.
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Generally @ recent posts
China, through its long history as a world superpower (long before north America was but a twinkle in a few adventurous sailors eyes, except to native Americans) did not tend to use its clout to unbalance markets or make war. Call me a liar if you can.
Also, I have no idea what happened to Mark Mardell or his blog. I never participated in it myself, for my own reasons, which it would serve no useful purpose to share. Perhaps it will be back but I am sure the BBC would be pleased if people who did were to also find a platform in Matt Frei's blog to discuss American current affairs through a European perspective, which I think is their intention. As a regular participant I can say I have generally found the standard of debate in these discussions is reasonably high and usually manages to stay more or less on topic.
@ 116 JMay
Very true. The UK still hasn't got over giving away the patents for the jet engine after the second world war. But America did invent jazz and blues music, and the modern civil rights movement. All fine inventions.
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109 Grateful Marie,
"I was a little crushed to see Mardell gone, so I can’t imagine how you old blogger friends might feel. (Your post made me think about the last scene in the wonderful movie Fandango, where Judd Nelson just wants to say so-long to someone – bittersweet.) And I wonder about Mark himself. It seems unusual that he would exit without notice. Maybe it’s temporary. With the upcoming US political climate, the BBC will open something up at some time."
I'm more perplexed then crushed. I thought perhaps I missed some announcement detailing what happened, apparently not. It does seem an odd ending and perhaps there is an element of what that Judd Nelson character was feeling. If so, so long to all those from Mark’s blog!
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117 Francis power,
"China, through its long history as a world superpower (long before north America was but a twinkle in a few adventurous sailors eyes, except to native Americans) did not tend to use its clout to unbalance markets or make war. Call me a liar if you can."
I would not call you a liar but, I would point out that Japan might have a different perspective on Chinese history and the effectiveness of the "divine wind" which saved them from China's warmongering way's.
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Rodi et al.,
I'm not sure that Mark has gone. If you go to the main BBC blogs page, he is still there. It may have something more to do with no new postings, and all previous strings closed for comment.
Perhaps he is on holiday, or on an extended assignment. Would have thought that the US-China "special relationship" would have been of some importance, though. Curious ...
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@ 119 rodidog
You make a fair point but that relationship might be considered more 'local'. Important as it is. Try as I might though, I fail to bring to mind any neighbors throughout history that have not had boundary disputes. I suppose its a question of degree.
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#117
"But America did invent jazz and blues music, and the modern civil rights movement."
All connected to other "imports".
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@ 122 JMay
I appreciate your irony but you are too hard upon America. Yes it imported the theory, instruments and sentiment, to begin with. But it turned them all into something else entirely. At their best you can't really argue with any of them.
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Well did they ever find out if a missle was fired off the coast of California from a sub, or what if anything it was? Or how a Chinese sub popped up in the middle of a naval exercise amongst US ships in 2007? Or how China is developing a aircraft carrier fleet? I believe three are under construction. Or the new Chinese stealth fighter (the Russians also have one now) probably technology gleaned from the Nato war in Serbia. Tibet and Taiwan hands off per China, when the future comes will China say hands off too, like Hitler did in Czechoslovkia, and the Polish city of Danzig? China invests more in Afica supposedly, than the rest of the entire world, or so I have heard. Didn't the UN fight Chinese troops in Korea? How have the dynamics changed, is China now a refined beneficent caring nation of the world? Alot of questions beyond economic power.
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120 IF,
You could be right. It just seems an odd way of doing things; especially their new idea of closing threads. Apparently your comments fell on death ears in that regard, which I think is/was a shame since, like you, I believe some of the more interesting discussions happen when the thread goes off topic.
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121 Francis power,
“You make a fair point but that relationship might be considered more 'local'. Important as it is. Try as I might though, I fail to bring to mind any neighbors throughout history that have not had boundary disputes. I suppose its a question of degree.”
I suppose so. Although, does China even count the reign of the Mongols as being Chinese?
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@ 126 rodidog
I think it depends upon which Chinese person you happen to be talking to! And of course there are provinces within China who regard themselves as independent. A bit like Texas. We have counties here in the UK like that too.
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# 120. At 9:16pm on 23 Jan 2011, Interestedforeigner wrote:
"Rodi et al.,
I'm not sure that Mark has gone. If you go to the main BBC blogs page, he is still there. It may have something more to do with no new postings, and all previous strings closed for comment.
Perhaps he is on holiday, or on an extended assignment. Would have thought that the US-China "special relationship" would have been of some importance, though. Curious ..."
I would imagine the Beeb would have said something if he had left. As you say, maybe holiday, or other work. Maybe just a bad flu...
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# 125. At 04:14am on 24 Jan 2011, rodidog wrote:
“120 IF,
You could be right. It just seems an odd way of doing things; especially their new idea of closing threads. Apparently your comments fell on death ears in that regard, which I think is/was a shame since, like you, I believe some of the more interesting discussions happen when the thread goes off topic.”
While I take your point, I suspect the reason they close off discussion is v simply that postings are pre-moderated and it is a drain on their staffing resources to have to do this.
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But then again
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12265173
"The BBC is to cut about 200 websites as it reduces the amount of money it spends on its online output.
The changes, which will see BBC Online's budget cut by £34m, will also result in the closure of up to 360 posts over the next two years."
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#117
"Also, I have no idea what happened to Mark Mardell or his blog."
Whatever happened, was sudden and unexpected. Possibly health related?
His blog hasn't been removed from the BBC site
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/
but it seems to have been sidelined, for now. He hasn't added to it in about 11 days, as of today. If it is an illness, it seems like a serious one.
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re#131
extract from the article,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12265173
"There will be fewer news blogs while standalone forums, communities and message-boards will be reduced and replaced with integrated social tools"
I guess we've had a good run and it's a sign of the times that something would have to give as the BBC downsizes its budget...
Shame though.... I guess all the people who blog here complaining about the BBC and it's wastefullness will be getting what they want.
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129. At 10:58am on 24 Jan 2011, John_From_Dublin wrote:
"While I take your point, I suspect the reason they close off discussion is v simply that postings are pre-moderated and it is a drain on their staffing resources to have to do this."
_________
Gosh. Imagine that.
And all these years I thought they had prospective volunteers lined up around the block anxious for the opportunity to review our scintillating prose...
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130. At 11:19am on 24 Jan 2011, John_From_Dublin wrote:
"The changes, which will see BBC Online's budget cut by £34m, will also result in the closure of up to 360 posts over the next two years."
__________
Clearly, each of us will have to do his or her part by billing the BBC less for our contributions.
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125. At 04:14am on 24 Jan 2011, rodidog wrote:
"... like you, I believe some of the more interesting discussions happen when the thread goes off topic. "
__________
I prefer to think of it not so much as being off topic, but more along the lines of following a path that may have twists and turns - sort of like driving from Milwaukee to San Francisco by way of Wilmington and Baton Rouge.
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And now to start the week off with a tirade -
Today's topic: Public stimulus spending on infrastructure projects.
This morning in the paper I see that the organizers of the Toronto Gay Pride Parade have been turned down for an economic stimulus grant, notwithstanding that they have met all of the criteria set by the government for receiving federal stimulus funds.
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We have a minority government that has done virtually nothing in the last five years except work, night and day, like the devil himself on converting that minority status into a majority. In my view, it all boils down to one man's ego - and, consistently, nearly seventy percent of Canadians are united in this one thing: they do not want this man as Prime Minister.
But every waking, breathing moment is spent on electioneering. We've had five years of it, without a break. All campaigning, all the time. 24/7/365.
Canada's economy has done reasonably well because the previous government had done an outstanding job - budget in surplus, national debt in steady decline to 42% of GDP, banks solid, unemployment low. All the present bunch had to do was leave it on auto-pilot and stay the course already plotted out by the previous government of Paul Martin, which they have done, by and large.
The one glaring error, financially, was to reduce our national tax on consumption, a decision that, to date, has cost the country about $40B in lost tax revenues. It was an extraordinarily foolish decision that flew in the face of half a century of efforts by the Ministry of Finance and the Bank of Canada to shift taxation from income to consumption. This is a policy that every government in this country - federal or provincial, Liberal, Conservative, or NDP - has known to be needed for the last fifty years.
Why was this incredibly dumb decision made? You guessed it: Electioneering.
Under any circumstances this is a huge amount of money to spend on trying to obtain a majority. Oh, the cost of human ego.
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Which brings us back to the economic stimulus funds, and the reason why stimulus spending in the US and Canada has been less effective than might have been hoped.
The fact of the matter is that under the criteria set by the government, the Gay Pride Parade should have been eligible for a grant. (Everybody surmises that the reason they have been excluded has a lot more to do with the fact that 5 of every 6 votes cast for the present government were from evangelical Christians).
That the funding should (most probably) have been nixed because of religious prejudice, rather than because it is a gross waste of public funds, I suppose merely makes it even more ridiculous.
It doesn't bother me in the least that the applicants for funding were the Gay Pride Parade.
What bothers me is that a parade, ANY parade, would have been eligible for infrastructure funds.
How many other parades did they in fact decide to support financially?
It boggles the mind what these people could be thinking.
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To most of us, infrastructure means buildings, sewer lines, new storm drains, flood control, water filtration, highways, railroads, bridges, tunnels, telecommunications installations, burial of electrical power and communications transmission lines, etc., etc.
I'm ok with that kind of spending. These are assets that will be of benefit to Canadians (or Americans, as may be) for the next 50 - 100 years.
But a parade?
A parade?
Just how does a parade constitute infrastructure spending?
How is a parade going to stimulate solid long-term growth in the economy?
Who in their right mind drafted the grant criteria so broadly that a parade, any parade, could have been eligible for funding?
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And that's the thing.
The Federal, Provincial, and Municipal governments co-operated, and spent matching infrastructure funds on, laying inter-locking stone walkways in a park that nobody uses. In another parks public infrastructure funds were used to fix flower beds.
And then, if that's not enough, they insist on putting up signs (to get the money the recipients have to agree to erecting the signs) announcing to the public that the project was paid for with government infrastructure funds.
In the past grants of this nature have gone to every snowmobile club, every curling rink, every seniors club, every hockey arena ... And for what?
Are these people nuts?
This is public money that is being thrown away.
With both hands.
By the shovel full.
By the bucket full.
For no genuine benefit to Canada (or, the US, as may be) whatsoever.
All of these stupid projects, these pet projects of every ward-heeler politician in the country, are being paid for with public money.
Public money that has been borrowed.
Borrowed public money that our children and grandchildren will be taxed to pay back.
These people have borrowed money for complete and utter wastes of public resources. Did we really elect such a bunch of idiots and buffoons?
And my children and grandchildren are going to be saddled with paying the taxes, eventually, to pay for this nonsense?
Yet they insist on putting up these signs.
That just blows me away: signs to trumpet how they have just wasted more of my tax money.
What are the signs really saying?
Here's how they translate in clear English:
"We, your elected politicians, have just poured another sackful of your tax dollars, and your children's future, down the toilet."
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The real thing that's wrong here is that these people feel this is something to boast about. Something that will get them votes.
Why aren't they hanging their heads in shame?
Why aren't they afraid to show their faces in public?
Instead they boast about it.
They use government funds to advertise "Canada's Action Plan" on TV.
That just kills me.
What incredible gall.
In my world, every person involved in authorizing so much as $1 of spending on these boondoggles would be banned from public office for life, by law. Put them in jail and throw away the key. They are a menace to every taxpayer in the country.
That's my tirade for this morning.
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To all of you wondering where Mark Mardalls blog has gone, I thought you might be amused by the following email I received courtesy of the BBC search team.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Thank you for your enquiry, which was received via the feedback form for
the new BBC search results pages. Mark Mardell's America blog can be
found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/
Kind regards.
BBC Search Team
Try the BBC iPlayer - Making the unmissable, unmissable:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Lovely to get a response - shame no-one checked to see if the blog was actually active which is what we all want to know. And, of course, what has happened to Mark himself.
I am in absolute agreement with those of you who say the threads become more interesting as they segue from idea to idea - like good round table discussions. It is a shame tho' that the 'closed for comments' has happened even if it does mean fewer moderators, less BBC expenditure. It can't be outside the wit of the techno geeks to write a programme to moderate posters, with key-words+phrases leading to obliteration.
Dear Aunty Beeb - sitting in her little office, all greying hair and lavender scented undies, delete button beneath her index finger, the Miss Marple of the airwaves - policing our pathetic efforts single handedly.
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IF at 136
I enjoyed and appreciate your tirade.
I admit to a shamefully low level of knowledge about Canadian politics, having just enough to feel a sense of unease at another enormous nation on the American continent - which has always seemed to me to be the ne plus ultra of commonsense - starting to show signs of being held in thrall to yet another far right evangelical Christian mind-set.
It is a frightening thought that some of the purportedly most highly educated groups in the Western world are suddenly speaking in tongues. What on earth is going on? It would be almost amusing, except that the power held by these groups now have such a potentially baleful influence on the rest of the world. It's the hypocrisy that infuriates me. These self same groups demonise Islam and, to be fair, almost anyone else who doesn't share their view, and cannot see that they are doing exactly what they say their 'enemies' are doing! Plus ca change!
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# 133 IF
"Gosh. Imagine that.
And all these years I thought they had prospective volunteers lined up around the block anxious for the opportunity to review our scintillating prose..."
I imagine the turnover is akin to fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain, and every few weeks yet another gibbering wreck is dragged off screaming to the Home For The Bewildered.
You must also bear in mind that in some cases, mentioning no magic names, postings have to be translated into English before they can be moderated…
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I imagine the turnover is akin to fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain, and every few weeks yet another gibbering wreck is dragged off screaming to the Home For The Bewildered.
You must also bear in mind that in some cases, mentioning no magic names, postings have to be translated into English before they can be moderated…
# 134 IF
“Clearly, each of us will have to do his or her part by billing the BBC less for our contributions.”
I wroteto the Beeb demanding payment for my contributions. They replied promising to pay me exactly what they were worth.
Still waiting for that cheque.....
;-)
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# 136 IF
That begged the obvious question of when you're due an election – since we are expecting one in weeks, and seem likely to give our govt the thrashing of a lifetime.
According to Wiki there doesn’t have to be one there till late 2013?
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# 137 amaryr
“It can't be outside the wit of the techno geeks to write a programme to moderate posters, with key-words+phrases leading to obliteration.”
While I am no techno geek, I suspect it is v difficult to get a computer program to do that. Eg you have to get a computer that distinguishes between, say, someone who writes ‘poster X is a Nazi’ and someone who writes ‘I deplore those who falsely accuse another poster of being a Nazi’.
Moderating is definitely not an exact science and it is pretty obvious that they have more than one person doing it, as the strictness of moderation varies from time to time.
”Dear Aunty Beeb - sitting in her little office, all greying hair and lavender scented undies, delete button beneath her index finger, the Miss Marple of the airwaves - policing our pathetic efforts single handedly.”
It’s a delightful image ;-)
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138. At 3:56pm on 24 Jan 2011, amaryr wrote:
"These self same groups demonise Islam and, to be fair, almost anyone else who doesn't share their view, and cannot see that they are doing exactly what they say their 'enemies' are doing! Plus ca change!"
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Oh, boy.
Yes, we certainly have our share of Taliban-on-the-government-benches, and yes, the hypocrisy is breath-taking, and it extends to almost every policy field.
Self-proclaimed fiscal conservatives who pour tax money out with a hose.
Self-proclaimed "tough on crime" guys who dream night and day of abolishing the long gun registry - which police use, apparently, 11,000 times a day.
Oh, yeah. No shortage of hypocrisy with this government.
Many governments engage in hypocrisy to some extent, but this one has turned it into an art form.
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And, after five years in office, do they propose to run for re-election on the basis of their achievements in office?
Hardly.
The paucity of their "achievements" is so great that their campaign strategy is to villify and demonize the leaders of the three opposition parties with savage personal attacks, and nothing but personal attacks.
Hold on. Those guys are in opposition.
Remind me again: Who's been on the government benches?
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140. At 4:12pm on 24 Jan 2011, John_From_Dublin wrote:
I wroteto the Beeb demanding payment for my contributions. They replied promising to pay me exactly what they were worth.
Still waiting for that cheque....."
[[I heard it was in the mail, just like mine, but they told me my contributions were only worth half of yours...]]
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Maybe the BBC is sending its moderator jobs to China. That would be...interesting.
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141. At 4:17pm on 24 Jan 2011, John_From_Dublin wrote:
# 136 IF
"That begged the obvious question of when you're due an election – since we are expecting one in weeks, and seem likely to give our govt the thrashing of a lifetime."
"According to Wiki there doesn’t have to be one there till late 2013?"
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The Conservatives are itching for a go.
Their campaign workers are fully mobilized, ready, and, like the panzer divisions of yore, armed and fueled up, engines running, merely waiting for the spring sunshine to dry the ground and make it firm enough for battle. They have already started door-to-door campaigning, even before the writ is dropped.
The budget will be brought in very soon, and the Conservatives have announced that it will include programs that the Liberals will have to vote against. The Conservatives are trying to provoke an election by having the budget defeated on a vote of no confidence in the House. The NDP are terrified, because almost all of their seats are vulnerable. Not sure where the Bloc stands.
If they can't provoke the opposition for certain, I would not be surprised if the PM went to visit the Governor General to request dissolution the day after the budget speech.
That will be very soon, with election day being the first spring day where there is a fair probability of warmth and sunshine.
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The Conservatives think the economy is on the mend; they have way more cash in their campaign coffers than anybody else; the opposition is still divided; polls show the Conservative support edging toward 35 % (which probably means closer to 38% of actual votes cast-and-counted); Liberal support soft in the "905" belt around the Golden Horseshoe; NDP support soft everywhere; and a Liberal leader of significant ineptitude and no experience in a national campaign.
They don't know what to do in Quebec, but the reports in the paper this morning suggest that the strategy may be to tell voters in Quebec that they should take government money as a bribe (I translate). The catch phrase they intend to use as code for this lofty and principled sentiment is that they want Quebec voters to keep in mind "the tangible benefits" of electing a government member".
That seems like a deeply insulting, half-century out-of-date mis-read of Quebec culture to me (people don't usually like being told, implicitly, that they are prostitutes), but hey, this government is known for having a tin ear when it comes to Quebec.
In any case, given the rather poor showing by the Liberal leader (heard him on the radio on Saturday: awful, just plain awful - maybe he should drop the political spin and pivot nonsense, and try answering questions instead? maybe he should drop the condescension of repeating the interviewer's name so frequently and so unctuously, as if speaking to misguided school-children?), and the money, and zeal, being applied by the government, they might well get their majority. Even though a week can be a long time in politics, as of today I would not bet against it.
On the other hand, if those who voted for the Greens last time would wake up and realize that it is their wasted votes that put the Party of "Let's-burn-hydrocarbons-faster-to-speed-up-global-warming", (i.e., the most environmentally reactionary government in the G20) into office the last two times, and instead cast their votes for candidates who might unseat the Conservatives, that entire calculus would be stood on its head.
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Ginseng iced tea almost came out of my nose. CNN's quick vote today:
Who would you be more likely to support for the Republican presidential nomination? Rudy Guiliani or Sarah Palin.
The results so far: Guiliani 85% Palin 15%.
Although I hate those stupid CNN polls, this one was funny and the result – Thank God.
Although 15% is still way too high. :-(
But I just thought we were stoopider than that, so :-)
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John from Dublin at 142
I do see what you mean ref. techno-geeky programmes, but I still feel sure there are already organisations- who often use capital letter only in their names - who look out for word/phrase combinations that are or are not allowed, or flag up alarums and excursions in the eye of those who presume to police the ethics and manners of the populace. You see I'm sure that if I called you something Really Rude, I would be blackballed, but if I simply and politely questioned your parentage in the Queens English, I probably would get away with it.
This idea actually has quite a lot going for it, since President Obama called for more civility, and not a second too soon. It would mean that those who are continually impolite, inaccurate (wow - this programme has endless magic possiblities!) or even rather silly ( no - scrub that one, sounds too close to home!) would be confined to the margin - literally - of online debate.
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Human moderators are required to keep forums like this on topic and every forum is only as good as its moderators. Without that they are worth nothing and a waste of license fee payers money. They are certainly not worth participating in. This is why I did not participate in Mark Mardell's blog. Looks like Matt Frei's is sadly going the same way. Have fun.
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149. At 8:05pm on 24 Jan 2011, Francis power
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It isn't the moderators.
We're merely waiting for a new string.
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Francis Power at 149
I'm not sure you are accurate that moderators are employed to "keep the forum on topic". Who can know what interesting ideas will spin off many another topic. My understanding of moderating on the BBC and other forums on both sides of the Atlantic, is to ensure a minimum standard of civility, to prevent online bullying and obscenity.
It's a shame you feel you don't want to participate, there are many excellent, well informed minds here, some unbelievably badly informed individuals, wise heads and immature minds. A fascinating sediment of the tide of humanity washes up here. Whether you dive in or simply observe, it doesn't hurt to paddle on the edge occasionally.
A waste of money? For my small contribution via the licence fee, it's a goldmine, especially for those of us retired from the coal face of lecturing and missing the cut and thrust of debate.
PS. Without the 'permission' of the moderators to 'allow' sidetracks from the topic, neither you or I would have the opportunity to exchange these ideas.
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IF at 150
Vamp 'til ready?
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152. Don't know. Might be done for the day on that topic.
Agree with your comments at 151, though. When I started posting on the BBC it used to bother me that the postings wouldn't stay on topic.
After a while, though, I began to see different and more subtle things - and often rather more thoughtful things - that came out as the strings followed their own paths like a meandering stream.
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This posting should be renamed as:
"Mark Mardell's blog status anxiety over rising BBC costs"
Cough up some more license fees, you cheapskates!
:)
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Panic no more, Mark is back with some more comments on Obama.
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Good to know all is OK in Mardell world, but good also to have had a look at this forum. Look forward to the next topic.
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How High is you`r average China man!.With his country`s export drive on an war footing he is walking 6ft tall what ever his actual name & hight.His ship is coming in,literally.Over the last two years China has lent on less transparent & easy terms, more than the World bank.some $110 billion, according to last weeks financial times.
What ever Chinas ideology of the recent past,now its making money.Chinas business is now Business.Whilst its difficult living with this as more & more western firms close in the face of this tsunami,of take overs & competition,I feel these will be seen as the good old days.
As & when a turn down for China occurs,to keep its millions focused & in line,up its voluminous sleeves or should that be Armani these days,is the nationalist card.Hard line mandarins in the wings,& make no mistake they are there (they all-ways are)will then think it a jolly good thing to flex some muscle & its good night Taiwan.
But in the mean time its business as usual,with the west(America)trying to sort out all Chinas bothersome neighbours & being bled white in the process,this is costing China zilch,man that is good news for Chinas bottom line.
It was not a pleasing tune for us British & the topsy turvy way things are turning out it will not be a pleasing tune for the Americans either.
"When the world turned upside down".
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An incredible offer,& from one person,thank you.
I am so relieved it is now in safe hands.
The Eagle has at last landed,but Huston we have a problem with signing & therefore,will not act contrary to your wishes.
Respecting your precedent of anonymity,please please,could a box number or forwarding address be sent via the usual way.
The name & address of the Minister who heads up this work will be sent,& one could deal direct thus cutting out us middle men.
Things in Romania are difficult,but improving,one of the benefits of the EU is that Romania`s infrastructure has been massively helped,new roads new business ect.The Romania that I worked in is rapidly fading.Its neighbour Moldova is were the feeding centre for the young & elderly is now located.
Moldova is in a pickle,with the EU not pushing east & the big players east struggling.Many there feel things were some what better under the old communist system.Back then at least some times with the latest 5 year push,some infrastructural help came their way.Moldova is now stagnating.
All the young must leave for a better future to escape the grinding poverty.This leaves just the very young & very old in the position of reliance on a loved one sending money back in order to survive.
Frequently,fickle men get caught up in bad living overseas, the money stops arriving.Things get very serious very quickly for a mother with small children.For them the norm is what you plant & preserve in summer
eat in winter,no grow no eat.Being single with young one can not tend the garden with the intensity that it requires,also the very elderly find this a losing battle.
I have supported this work for many years.There are also other areas I would like to support.The Minister last November returned from a visit to the feeding centre.He was asked by me how are things over there & can I cut down my support to help in other areas.He told me straight,your support is keeping the vulnerable alive,no one wants you when you are vulnerable
especially when elderly.
The brutal fact is, people like him can only help over there, with the help of people like your self,many many thanks & the kindest regards.
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Hang on for the moment.
Feared lost at sea.
Remedial steps initiated just last evening.
Further word to follow.
Life is surely full of ironies.
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158. Your posting brings Leonard Cheshire to mind.
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Post is none of my business, but #158 paragraphs 4 and 5…A noble cause, to be sure.
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Post 159
Thanks,
Post 160
What a fellow!there were giants then.
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161. At 6:08pm on 25 Jan 2011, Grateful Marie
No different to your voluntary efforts,look after your self,as there are not many of you out there...
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163. At 6:54pm on 25 Jan 2011, ukwales wrote:
“look after your self,as there are not many of you out there...”
Gee whiz. I guess I had you mistaken - seems to be two sides, and only two, issuing forth from you. Rather sad to me.
Yes, go your own way, by all means.
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163. At 6:54pm on 25 Jan 2011, ukwales wrote:
“look after your self,as there are not many of you out there...”
You know what? Maybe I misunderstood. Perhaps I’M the one being defensive.
Gee whiz - to me.
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164, 165.
Dang it. I sure am a complex little person. :-\
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166. At 9:12pm on 25 Jan 2011, Grateful Marie wrote:
164, 165.
Dang it. I sure am a complex little person. :-\
The trouble with instant communication is that some times one is not under stood,we both speak the same language but its difficult to get the drift from a quick remarks as your nuance & tone would not export readily to some one in darkest West Wales & the same goes for me.
All I meant by my remarks to you,was take care of your self, as people who voluntarily go out & look after others run some risk,plus the fact
is there is not very many who care to do this.I am sorry for this misunderstanding its my fault....
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