Will voices of 'better angels' prevail?
President Obama has spoken out against the planned Koran burning, joining those who say it is un American and will put US troops at risk.
"I just hope he understands that what he's proposing to do is completely contrary to our values as Americans. That this country has been built on the notions of religious freedom and religious tolerance. And as a very practical matter, as commander of chief of the armed forces of the United States, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women in uniform who are in Iraq, who are in Afghanistan."
The president hasn't exactly been in the vanguard of those condemning the burning. From the White House's point of view it is understandable that they wanted plenty of cover, so the president's intervention would add pressure on the preacher, rather than adding flames to another fire. They wouldn't want the president's serious words used as "evidence" supporting absurd urban myths about his own beliefs and sympathies.
So he waited for cover from those who conservatives would respect. Not only the unimpeachable military view of General Petraeus, but the avatar of the Tea Party right herself, Sarah Palin.
The president said he hoped the incendiary Pastor would listen to his "better angels". Those beings do appear to have been remarkably busy, encouraging the most bipartisan moment I can think of, since arriving here just over a year ago.
A random check on some of the most rabidly anti-Islamic internet sites indicates that they don't want to get involved, either reporting factually or skirting the subject. As far as I can see no one anywhere near the mainstream has supported the planned burning. But Sarah Palin's latest tweet does suggest there should be a balance in condemnation: "Book burning=bad;Cleric running 4 Afghan Parliament calling 4 murder of US children n response 2 scorched Korans=worse. Where's media focus?"
The moment of bipartisan agreement will be fleeting. Being an angel must be hard work.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~32~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Not only is "Rev" Jones irresponsible, he is an opportunists. He figured out a way to become famous and potentially wealthy by using religious prejudice to inflame passions and become famous.
Unfortunately, in a country like ours freedom of speech is simply too important to silence or limit. Let's hope Americans and American interests abroad don't pay the consequences for the actions of this man.
Complain about this comment
Isn't today also the last day of Ramadan in the Middle East? It's like burning Bibles at Christmas!
Complain about this comment
As someone with no time for religion I've got no problems with them burning the Koran, but I would like to burn a Bible too as it advocates rape and child murder among other things.
God botherers should probably respect each other's views as they appear to be able to dish abuse out but not take it.
Complain about this comment
The kooks should be forcibly stopped from burning the Kurans. Even if the action is unconstitutional, let the courts verify that. It will take years. This will show the world we respect other religious views more than we respect kooks. This route is a no-brainer to me..
Complain about this comment
Meh.
Why is this news?
A crackpot with a following of 50 wants to burn a piece of fiction and media goes nuts.
Complain about this comment
As usual the BBC is embarrassing in it's left wing partisanship!
Complain about this comment
That this pastor can somehow justify the burning of the Koran is beyond my comprehension. To take a religious text and desecrate it because a small minority of its adherents have used it as an excuse to do evil is wrong. It tells me that Terry Jones and his followers are every bit as bad as those who crashed planes into the Pentagon and the World Trade Centers. We should all remember the words of Heinrich Heine who said "Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings."
Complain about this comment
Not only is "Rev" Jones irresponsible, but I think he does not understand the Koran. As far as I know the Koran forbids the killing of any innocents, even by accident even in a Jihad. The problem is not with the Koran, a holy book, but with the interpretation by some. The Bible, another holy book, has been misused in much the same way in a darker period of the Catholic church.
Complain about this comment
Presumably, there will be plenty of moderates in Gainesville with wet blankets.
Complain about this comment
I wonder if the US authorities could have legal grounds for seizure of materials and preventitive arrest of principals.
Complain about this comment
I feel that ignorance is a big part of the epidemic of Islamophobia in the US; my (and I'm sure others') standard US public education was completed without a single teacher once mentioning a religion other than Christianity/Catholicism.
Complain about this comment
Let's hope Americans and American interests abroad don't pay the consequences for the actions of this man.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You really dont think that american and americans interests abroad arent paying consequences for their government's actions in the muslim countries? To even think that a man who decides to burn quran somehow will be responsible for consequences for everything after saturday is as stupid. There was no point in making this issue into an issue..But the politicians, even president himself has turned him into a powerful man..It wont matter if he burnt korans or not, its the drones, the occupation, that is the real problem..
Complain about this comment
A friend of mine brought one of those free bibles (handed out on the street by roving missionaries) to one of my house parties, just for laughs. Everyone had a good time reading mainly the intro part which isn't really part of the bible but the interpretation of it by whatever Christian sect had produced this book (which, by the way, only included the gospels by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). In any case, as I was cleaning out my place of beer bottles after the party, I came across this piece of propaganda, and thought "what am I going to do with this?" and, looking at the nice thin yellow-pages style papers, thought, "hey, this should be great as a fire starter" (reuse, reduce, recycle, right?).
So now it's currently sitting in my pile of fire kindle next to my fireplace... but reading all this hoopla about how burning holy texts is condemnable I'm wondering whether or not my decision to toss what could possibly be referred to as holy text into a pile destined for burning is ethical, and what to do about it ultimately, because I really don't want it lying around my place occupying space, I don't want to give it away because I don't want to spread its views (mainly because it has a very Christian-whatever-denomination-I-can't-remember spin to it, which is not quite aligned with my loosely Catholic / atheist / liberal views), and I'm wondering if it's equally unethical to shred it and then put it in the recycle bin or trash can? What do other people do when they are handed free bibles in the street? Do they face this same moral dilemma? I usually just refuse them, but now that I'm saddled with one, I'm just glad that there aren't many muslims around handing me free Qu'rans to boot.
Complain about this comment
Wow! Only Mark Mardell could turn a piece praising American bipartisanship in the face of the small-minded antics of the Koran-burning pastor into yet another partisan attack on Sarah Palin!
Complain about this comment
That this pastor can somehow justify the burning of the Koran is beyond my comprehension. To take a religious text and desecrate it because a small minority of its adherents have used it as an excuse to do evil is wrong.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here is what connects you with this pastor. Unless you change the narrative in which you all are now become first class inprisoned, nothing will change..Geniuses, those minorities whom you claim have used it as an excuse to do evil, did the evil more because of the injustice they felt the west had been doing it to them for years..It suits you to use their religon to explain their action, because if you really start paying attention to what really caused them to do what they did, the answers and reasons that you will find, will make you look like a first class oppressors and everything which you claim you are not.
Complain about this comment
Somebody who advocates book burning has better angels? Really?
Complain about this comment
It is beyond me that free speech has been interpreted as free action! I can say I hate someone but it should not be considered 'free speech' for me to murder that person.
Complain about this comment
Muslim rage has more to do with corruption, poverty, child sexual abuse,
lack of clean water, education and goverment repression. America isn't guiltless but we're also not the entire problem either. Muslims need to take a hard critical look at their own societies and the corruption bubbling up from within.
Complain about this comment
This pastor who want to burn a stack of his own books harms no one. His demonstration shouldn't even merit a notice in the local newspaper. Why is there no interest in the massively disproportionate response from the muslim world? Is this yet another example of the need for submission by the west to in order to have peace with the muslims?
If the pastor goes ahead with his plan, the responsibility for any dire consequences rests not one bit on his shoulders.
Complain about this comment
I wonder if the US authorities could have legal grounds for seizure of materials and preventitive arrest of principals.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone in floarida government has put a ban on this burning according to some law...So, this problem is solved..Now, can someone put a ban on drones as well? because drones are also number one source of whatever obama said this book burning would encourage among the radicals.
Complain about this comment
I am a muslim and I believe, the book to be the word of God! And in the book, Allah has promised that he is responsible to safeguard his words. As is written, so shall be done! Even if every copy of Koran under the sun is burnt, the book and its words will live in the heart of those who believe in the words. One man who knows it correctly is enough to revive the faith if ever it is endangered to get lost. There are thousands of muslims who have learnt Koran by heart verbatim. Rev.Jones needs to revise the purpose of his endeavor. It's not just a book, it is the code of morality and the essence of life for those who seek wisdom. It is the compass for human values. It is the staff to a soul to tread the noble path in life. If it's allegorical messages are being used to pursue personal agendas by terrorists or Rev. Jones, there is something wrong with their personal agendas and not the book. Islam is submission to the will of God and his goodness. I have yet to know a religion that advocates otherwise. I am a muslim by birth, have received education in a christian school and have lived a significant part of my life amongst hindus. I know polytheism as much as I understand and believe in monotheism. There are only two kinds of humans. One who are born with a meaningful purpose of life and others who need to find a meaningful purpose in life. Irrespective of faith, most humans belong to the first category. Amongst the second category, lies the devil's workshops, all those who try to create discord and the ludicrous dramas to entertain the satan and the rest of the world. It's difficult to ignore any disrespect to the book but as a muslim I would prefer not to react to Mr. Jones words or actions at all. Because I know that Koran says, Patient constancy is the firmness of purpose in the conduct of affairs. Rev. Jones has no firmness of purpose in his conduct of this irresponsible and unnecessary affair but muslim community can exhibit patient constancy in their faith that the book is indestructible if there is a god and their God is the God!
Written with a passion for my faith, for the god I believe in, for the sanctity of human relationships, for the nobility of the god fearing spirits and in the memory of him whom god created in his own image and whose progeny finds it difficult to live by that image!
Complain about this comment
Strange.
I cannot remember any condemnation, or even complaints, by the left or the islamic nations when the British or American flags were burnt. Scarcely even a murmer fron these parties when Sudanese muslims massacred Sudanese christians. Nor did we hear criticism when Sudanese muslims with light skins murdered Sudanese muslims with dark skins.
Yet global peace is threatened when an idiot burns a book in front of fifty other idiots???
Hypocrites (and I'm not talking about the "preacher")
Complain about this comment
What do other people do when they are handed free bibles in the street? Do they face this same moral dilemma? I usually just refuse them, but now that I'm saddled with one, I'm just glad that there aren't many muslims around handing me free Qu'rans to boot.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it back to the chruch it came from..If you cannot, then shred it, if you dont have a shredding machine, then burn it..There is a difference between burning a book of G-d out of hatered and out of respect, because you dont want the pages ending up in garbage..
Complain about this comment
5 diverticulosis
"Why is this news? A crackpot with a following of 50 wants to burn a piece of fiction and media goes nuts"
Except for calling the Koran "fiction" I agree with this completely. How is it this crackpot has made national news much less international news? The media has given this man more PR than he could ever have paid for or hoped to receive by this stunt.
Complain about this comment
As a US Soldier, I am begging this pastor not to do this. He is not part of the troops fighting anywhere overseas. As a God-fearing man, does he want to be responsible for the blood on his hands? I am fighting for his right to express his thoughts and opinions freely. Out of respect for the work we are doing overseas, he needs to realize nothing good can come from this.
Complain about this comment
In the West, we have this quaint tradition of tolerance and free speech.
It allows people to say (and do) idiotic things - including burning so-called holy books. After all, no-one has a right not to be 'insulted'.
This affair provides Muslims world-wide the opportunity to ignore an idiotic act and prove, by their apathy, that Islam is indeed a peaceful and tolerant religion.
So, will they?
Complain about this comment
If the pastor goes ahead with his plan, the responsibility for any dire consequences rests not one bit on his shoulders.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
What more dire consequences can you think of than 9/11? did it happen because some pastor burn koran? it happened because of yrs of americans exploitation of muslims especially in the middle east..especially in saudi arabia..This was just an another brick in the oppressive wall that americans have built against muslims..It is going to be seen as a continuation of american oppression..."they occupy, and now they burn our holy books" nothing more and nothing less..
Complain about this comment
This situation makes me angry.
Who runs the United States of America - Pastor Jones or the President?
Why have US authorities not stepped in to halt this desecration?
The answer lies in the US' Constitution’s First Amendment: the one that makes sacrosanct "freedom of expression, assembly and religion".
Authorities in Gainesville, where Pastor Terry Jones plans to burn copies of the Qur'an say they are powerless to prevent the preacher from burning. Gratious sake's, couldn't they have tried violation of local fire safety regulations? Doesn't the paster need a permit?
Well, yes he does need a permit: the fundamentalist Christian pastor applied for, and was denied a permit by the Gainesville City Fire Department. But he says he is going ahead anyway.
The US Constitution’s First Amendment reads:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
In the United States there appears to be a huge “tolerance for intolerance”, and to me that just doesn't make sense.
Surely the Pastor is acting in a manner intolerant to Muslims, and the rest of the Americans are standing by tolerating this.
How come Obama is so careful about the Consitution when George W. Bush didn't seem to mind walking all over the Constitition to take away individual privacy and freedoms?
This Quran burning is desired, needed, serves some American purpose...or it could and it would be stopped. What awful purpose does it serve for the American Government?
Complain about this comment
Almost everyone from both the political and religous spectrum has condemned this.
But as I posted on the HYS main board:
1. Why don't moslem leaders in countries like afghanastan and Indonesia mentioned that?
2. Why don't you hear anyone of them say that when we do this to other peoples symbols we are no better?
Complain about this comment
Didn't someone say
"Where you burn books. You will start to burn people."
I remember this quote fromThe World at War (from memory).
This is scary. How would he react if some one went around burning bibles.
Complain about this comment
The best way to defeat this radical (so called) "christain" is to make it NO NEWS.
Create an exclusion zone all round his (so called) church and no one film it nor report it directly.
Focus instead on united faiths with their backs to him.
Complain about this comment
I cannot remember any condemnation, or even complaints, by the left or the islamic nations when the British or American flags were burnt. Scarcely even a murmer fron these parties when Sudanese muslims massacred Sudanese christians. Nor did we hear criticism when Sudanese muslims with light skins murdered Sudanese muslims with dark skins.
Yet global peace is threatened when an idiot burns a book in front of fifty other idiots???
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Err, since when did Sudan become a state of usa? The pastor could have burnt the flag of muslim countries,just to see the reaction of the people who burn the american flag or that of britain..but then he would have to come up with a good reason..those who burn american or british flag dont do it because they wake up one day and decide to to do it, they do it because they protest against the occupation, the drones, the killings which these two countries collectively does..The politicians have no bussiness interefering with the chruch, thats american law..they have to look at their own actions, plenty of reasons there which threat the globe..If I were that pastor, i would take this opportunity to come down hard on politicians to force them to look into their own actions which have contributed to global unrest..
Complain about this comment
"We can burn their book because they can burn our flag."
Tit-for-tat mentality will not do the world any good.
Christians and Muslims who think that responding to any slight with some hate-inspired gesture (be it burning an object or taking a life) ought to re-read their own holy texts.
Complain about this comment
How unfortunate..... The religious man concerned does not have warrant before the Lord God of Israel to do this, but one has to admire him for the one man in America who does not want to go for appeasement of the followers of another god, one 'allah'.
Mr Barak Hussein Obama is absolutely NOT born again and NOT a Christian by any standard Christians use. He banned the National Day of Prayer from the Whitehouse, but then approves a State Department Dinner 'to mark Ramadan', a pagan religious festival.... He approves the building of the symbol of Islamic victory near Ground Zero, as Muslims do at the sites of their victories, but comes stoutly against a small protest by professing Christians. Hmmmm.... one has to say that one Barak Hussein Obama is anti-Christian and in favour of anything else.
Complain about this comment
Thank you boyle06 for the Heinrich Heine quote, but look on the bright side; we might get to burn Rev Jones.
Complain about this comment
Pastor Terry Jones said Thursday that he decided to cancel his protest because the leader of a planned Islamic Center near ground zero has agreed to move its controversial location. The agreement couldn't be immediately confirmed.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100909/ap_on_re_us/quran_burning
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If true, then this pastor has just become the hero of 70 plus % americans who didnt want the community center to be built near their holy ground..The 21st century american hero...
Complain about this comment
I also condemn the pastor's actions. They are ignorant and show great prejudice. But any "reprisals" from the Islamic world will not be his fault. At worst he is highlighting the great divide between Western thought and Islamic - blasphemy is a crime that ceased to be relevant in the Middle Ages.
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me."
Complain about this comment
There is a great deal of difference between burning national flags in political protest (= protest + free speech) and burning copies of the Koran (= desecration of their holy word, in their eyes it's blasphemy and worse). Thing is,all the due warnings have been given, Gainsville should be organising parties of counter-protesters to go with buckets to occupy the same space. If they don't, then my already low opinion of Americans will sink far far lower.
It's perfectly possible to stop the burning in favour of protecting Americans overseas - to heck with the Constitution - it's only a piece of paper, after all.
Complain about this comment
Well, it's all yesterday's news. The "evil Act" has been called off, the hot air now has to cool down, the pastor has found another way to stay in the eyes of the world media.
Perhaps a national day of headscratching to celebrate?
Complain about this comment
Mr Barak Hussein Obama is absolutely NOT born again and NOT a Christian by any standard Christians use. He banned the National Day of Prayer from the Whitehouse, but then approves a State Department Dinner 'to mark Ramadan', a pagan religious festival.... He approves the building of the symbol of Islamic victory near Ground Zero, as Muslims do at the sites of their victories, but comes stoutly against a small protest by professing Christians. Hmmmm.... one has to say that one Barak Hussein Obama is anti-Christian and in favour of anything else.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Obama is the one whose armies occupy two muslim countries, and send drones to the third muslim country, he is the one who supports the occupation of a fourth muslim nation...Mr obama has to critisize anti islam trend in america...otherwise Mr obama will have a tough time with the lots of puppet muslim leaders who allow him to exploit the muslim countries..If tomorrow Mr obama stops interefering in muslim countries, and allow anti islamic sentiments in usa, the muslims outside of usa will not even care, what americans do inside its borders..
Complain about this comment
"There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. Every minority, be it Baptist/Unitarian, Irish/Italian/Octogenarian/Zen Buddhist, Zionist/Seventh-day Adventist, Women's Lib/Republican, Mattachine/FourSquareGospel, feels it has the will, the right, the duty to douse the kerosene, light the fuse." - Ray Bradbury
Complain about this comment
#1 is cogent and #21 truly insightful
The issue seems to me to be one of American example: why can't the Rev. Jone help us be 'big enough' to not burn the Korans. That would set an example that we can rise above the taunts or flag burnings, etc. and work with 'people of good faith' in any faith.
There won't be peace until we 'build enough bridges' (or enough schools like Mortenson) for stronger ties with moderate Islam to dampen the fires of radical Islam. This Florida stunt is a big step backwards and shows America as small-minded or petty, rather than "big enough" not to burn any books let alone someone's holy books.
Complain about this comment
I prayed that God would stop him. Thank you God :)
Complain about this comment
There won't be peace until we 'build enough bridges' (or enough schools like Mortenson) for stronger ties with moderate Islam to dampen the fires of radical Islam.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And bridges are not built by occupation, destruction, drones and oppression..Just in case you think that bridges are only built by not burning korans and moving the community centers...When you allow your extremists to wage wars, then you have to first build bridges with your own extremists, whether religious or non religious, and only after that you can start thinking of stronger ties with moderate islams..By the way, in islam there is no such thing as fundamentalist or modern, that was something christians had to come up with to dissociate themselves with their religon..because it does, as its preached in churuches stand in the way..
Complain about this comment
36. At 10:16pm on 09 Sep 2010, colonelartist wrote: .....If true, then this pastor has just become the hero of 70 plus % americans who didnt want the community center to be built near their holy ground..The 21st century american hero...
I suspect your view may well be correct but this man is no more a hero than any other person who uses their faith as weapon for disrespect and intolerance and an excuse for anti-social behavior.
34. At 10:11pm on 09 Sep 2010, Rev J Hughes wrote:
How unfortunate..... The religious man concerned does not have warrant before the Lord God of Israel to do this, but one has to admire him for the one man in America who does not want to go for appeasement of the followers of another god, one 'allah'.
Someone who calls themselves 'Rev' should perhaps know that Muslims and Christians worship the same god.
Complain about this comment
Breaking NEws: The Rev. has just said that he is not going to the do book burning, so all can relax now!!!
Complain about this comment
Ref 12, colonel
"To even think that a man who decides to burn quran somehow will be responsible for consequences for everything after saturday is as stupid."
I am very much aware of the dangers that Americans face when we travel or work abroad, particularly in Islamic countries, but had this episode been carried out I am afraid anti-Americanism would have expanded from radical Islam to every Muslim regardless of how moderate they may be and possibly beyond the Islamic world. It would have been another drop in a bucket that includes our unconditional support to Israel, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, building air bases near Mecca and Medina, references to crusades, and other policies or actions that have contributed to the worst Christian/Muslim relations in centuries.
My interest in "Holy" books is strictly historical, but I do not see a point to burn or desecrate religious books or symbols that others consider Holy and, in some cases, the word of God.
I would not be surprised if "Pastor" Jones was only seeking notoriety and a ticket to the big leagues, but I fear that his greed and lack of scruples may have tarnished an image of our country that was already almost beyond repair.
Fortunately, common sense and quiet diplomacy have prevailed and the Pastor has given up on his plan as a quid pro quo to not building the Islamic Cultural Center two blocks from Ground Zero.
Complain about this comment
Jones on Thursday said he prayed about the decision and that if the site of the mosque was moved, it would be a sign from God to call off the Quran burning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who drew first blood? The answer is obvious...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree 110 %. This whole thing started with Ground Zero Megamosque.
If they do not build the Ground Zero Megamosque, most everyone will calm down. But if they do build the Ground Zero Megamosque, there will be much tension amongst many for a very long time and even deeper division. In fact, there is no telling what will happen.
As much as I am against the teachings of Mein Kampf and some of the verses of the Koran, I do not believe in burning their books because I do not want them to burn my books.
The flag-burning, on the other hand, is ridiculous and only makes them look bad...we could burn their flags all day, but we do not because we are clearly the better people with higher morals and standards...
Complain about this comment
It sounds like he will not burn any Korans if the Ground Zero Megamosque is not built....
Trump has offered to buy the Ground Zero Megamosque site with 25 % plus...if they are smart, they will take the deal!!!
Complain about this comment
I am very much aware of the dangers that Americans face when we travel or work abroad, particularly in Islamic countries, but had this episode been carried out I am afraid anti-Americanism would have expanded from radical Islam to every Muslim regardless of how moderate they may be and possibly beyond the Islamic world. It would have been another drop in a bucket that includes our unconditional support to Israel, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, building air bases near Mecca and Medina, references to crusades, and other policies or actions that have contributed to the worst Christian/Muslim relations in centuries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The day you realise that those who opposse americans do so because of, whether you like it or not, its oppressive policies towards the muslim countries, and not because what america does inside its own borders to islam is the day you you will find yourself enlighten..to say that muslims will be more angered by burning of their holy book in usa by some pastor is to ridicule muslims...They will be more angry at usa for not ending occupation in iraq and for destroying the country so that it could put a usa friendly government over there, same with afghanistan..the drones in pakistan, recent attacks killed 23 people..These are the things that really create problems, not burning of koran.. If americans got themselves hijacked by a few so called islamic radicals, doesnt mean that muslims would also do the same...The moderate muslims have lots of examples which are enogh for them to know that west is against islam..usa is more against those muslims who are in armed struggle against western military..Just a matter of quantatitaive difference. The bucket is full, this drop would not have mattered to the bucket..This thing was just a hoax, otherwise, Iran, saudi arabia and such countries would be at the forefront of protests...Obama had to stop this preacher because otherwise he couldnt have enjoyed the american support and the support of puppet leaders for occupation and desrtuction of muslim countries...Americans are quick to remind every tom dick and harry religious person that politics and religon are separate in usa, but in this case no one reminded any politcian included obama to just stay away from the religon..Your politicians are the ones who bring in religion with every sentence when it comes to war in afghanistanTrue they dont bring in their religon but they bring in islam...Just remember that..
Complain about this comment
My interest in "Holy" books is strictly historical, but I do not see a point to burn or desecrate religious books or symbols that others consider Holy and, in some cases, the word of God.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For 9 yrs the pastor in a small community has heard that islam is the cause for 9/11, what did you expect him to do? Make a movie like that dutch guy?
Complain about this comment
I agree 110 %. This whole thing started with Ground Zero Megamosque.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What has the floradian pastor to do with the muslims of manhatten? Nothing. This whole thing started 9 yrs ago, it was in incubater, getting mature..Now, he will link it with community center to make himself from zero to a hero...So, easy it is for americans to become heroes these days..
Complain about this comment
Ref. 49, LucyJ:
"Trump has offered to buy the Ground Zero Megamosque site with 25 % plus...if they are smart, they will take the deal!!!"
... and if they're principled they won't.
My guess is they won't.
Complain about this comment
I still don't know what this "megamosque" is that people keep referring to. I wasn't aware that office buildings in New York were architectural or religious rivals to Al-Aqsa or the Hagia Sofia.
I would find it even more amusing if they had wanted to convert a Quonset-hut into a "megamosque", just to hear the continued railing against the construction of a Muslim "victory" monument.
Complain about this comment
It would have been another drop in a bucket that includes our unconditional support to Israel, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, building air bases near Mecca and Medina, references to crusades,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldnt have been great if americans both religious and non religoius had put this kind of pressure on clinton and bush sr to withdraw his troops from saudiarabia after gulf war? you would not even have this 9/11..And it would also be great if people put pressure on obama to end his wars and occupations, so that american troops would not be in "more danger"..infact the troops and americans would not even be any danger, let alone more danger.
Complain about this comment
Ref. 47, SaintDominick:
"Fortunately, common sense and quiet diplomacy have prevailed and the Pastor has given up on his plan as a quid pro quo to not building the Islamic Cultural Center two blocks from Ground Zero."
There's no deal, though.
There's nothing to stop the local fire department from showing up with a hose and a citation for arson.
Complain about this comment
The americans, as they have claimed for the past 9 yrs, dont give in to radicals, so why should the imam of american muslims of manhatten should given in to this christian radical?
Complain about this comment
We should protect this mans right to burn the koran. We protect the muslim's right to burn the flag. It is far worse to burn the flag in the US than it is to burn a fictitious book.
Complain about this comment
Eh? Terry Jones, you say -- do you mean this chap?
Complain about this comment
Well Marc you could also call Iman Rauf for his threats to those who oppose his cultural center.
On soft ball Larry King he says if the center is not built it will encourage radical islam.
Considering his refusal to denouce Hamas he is a radical moslem
Complain about this comment
The Rambo question of first blood is pretty pointless since so much has been drawn by so many sides in so many wars for many hundreds of years. If some of these posts were new flavor-changing gums they would be "offence and irony", equating Mein Kampf with the Koran just before saying "we're better than that", etc.
I think it was Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes who described a ruling by saying that "freedom of speech stops short of yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater", in other words protection of free speech doesn't include an act sure to incite panic and cause injury.
We're reaching that point in political discourse.
I know no-one mentioned this yet and Holmes may be out of current favor, even though he was a Civil War hero and a remarkable American, because after all he also said that "taxes are the price of a civilized society".
Words do matter and should be checked against reality. I visited my hometown to be dismayed at the enormous square evangelical church overshadowing the Methodist church I grew up in from what was once the adjacent field. That was a single-use building aptly described as a "mega-church", and it looked even more out of place than the 'McMansions' that had replaced about 1 in 10 of the small ranches or split-levels in my childhood neighborhood.
The building that's proposed in Manhattan, based on what I've read, is:
1) a community center with exercise facilities, meeting areas, available to various faiths
2) worship areas, some exclusively Muslim
No minarets or muzzeins, and multiple purposes, with an underlying interfaith emphasis.
Please correct me if I missed something! It doesn't sound like "mega-mosque" is the true word to describe it. It sounds more "American Melting Pot" to me.
Is this building, which is apparently in proportion surrounding construction in the area, really that bad?
So far I've read about people directly affected by 9/11 setting up schools in Afghanistan or reaching out in other ways, those stranded by 9/11 setting up scholarships in Newfoundland to repay the hospitality shown to stranded travelers, etc.
The people most upset about the community center "mega-mosque" seem to be the TV audience for 9/11, not directly affected. Do they know about the actual plans in NY? Do they read Matthew 7 and behave accordingly? Or are they mad and ready to shout "fire!" any way possible along with saying we have the worst president, the worst congress, etc. in 200+ years that span multiple depressions and many wars both ill-conceived and justified...
Complain about this comment
The media has thrown another imaginary ball and we the people, like dogs, have run after it again.
The major economic negotiation going on between China and the U.S. is recieving almost no attention. China doesn't want the U.S. "politicising trade and economic issues".
Mainstream news sites aren't saying much and focusing on this nonsense.
How many times can we fall for the imaginary ball trick? Stop bickering with each other and pay attention people.
Complain about this comment
Here is my modest proposal, in the Swiftian tradition.
Let us proclaim an International Holy Book Burning Day, when people of -all- creeds and faiths, from -all- corners of the world and -all- walks of life, can come together in one place to enjoy the fellowship and joyful comradery that always attends a good book (or Good Book) burning! Perhaps there could be deity-oriented games too, and God knows what all else...
Complain about this comment
Andy wrote:
if they're principled they won't.
My guess is they won't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If they had principles, they would have never tried to snub us in the first place. Clearly, they do not have any principles...even Trump knows this. Usually I don't agree with Trump, but Trump is trying to defuse the situtation, cause' he knows what will probably happen otherwise...
I find it extremely confusing and bizarre that the Florida Imam told Pastor Jones that a deal was made, now the New York Imam is saying No there is no such thing...who is telling the truth here? Of the three, I believe Pastor Jones the most, because he has no reason to lie.
Deal or no deal?
Complain about this comment
the construction of a Muslim "victory" monument.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Precisely...
If it does get built...I know which side I'm on.
And I know what I will be rooting for...
Complain about this comment
The Rambo question of first blood is pretty pointless since so much has been drawn by so many sides in so many wars for many hundreds of years. If some of these posts were new flavor-changing gums they would be "offence and irony", equating Mein Kampf with the Koran just before saying "we're better than that", etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many have felt angst, anger, tension and the need for revenge since 9/11 that comes and goes, but has never really gone away, as we continue to fight in two wars against radicalized terrorists of the same and similar organized groups that murdered thousands of our citizens and still are conspiring to murder more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
First blood was drawn...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
When they announced they wanted to build a giant mosque overlooking 9/11 hallowed ground, many emotions in people erupted. Including hurt, anger, betrayal and defense of our country. There already are many reactions and effects and if it is built, there will be many more.
Complain about this comment
I fully support the Koran burning as an act of Americans exerecising their constitutional right of freedom of speech on their own territory. This is nothing new. We've had the Klu Klux Klan march through the streets of Peoria exercising their right of freedom of speech and we've had war protestors burning American flags exercising theirs. This is no different. Burning all the books in the world kills nobody while a single terrorist suicide bombing may kill dozens.
I am utterly disgusted by the entire US government and media for their cowardice and duplicity. Cowardice to defend the constitution and duplicity in a double standard that tolerates insults to America and worries about the rights of terrrorists who are tortured to reveal what plans they have for attacking Americans but is repressive in the extreme to a peaceful act of defiance.
I am disgusted at a general who is worried about provoking the enemy to violence. I am disgusted by a military that is by far the most powerful ever assembled anywhere in human history lavishly equipped with every conceivable modern weapon of war cowering ineffectively faced with bands of primitives hiding in caves equipped with nothing more than AK47s, IED, and RPGs. That we have not sought these people out and eliminated them a long time ago but instead fretting over winning hearts and minds and nation building proves we have already lost the war against terror.
If an American demonstration of defiance by a handful of people burning books will bring the entire Islamic world to war against us then I say bring it on now while we can still easily defeat them. The government and media are a disgrace and a betrayal, traitors to the Constitution, the American Revolution, to our heritage, and to the democracy we hold so dear.
Complain about this comment
Sigh. I hope the angels are patient.
I don't know any personally, but I have read some people who seem to hear them:
Mention of Moses has bogged down your minds
supposing these tales tell of long ago
Mention of Moses, a veil cloaking eyes
But, my good man, Moses' light, look to it.
Both Moses and Pharoah dwell within you
Seek out these two foes in your inner self.
Mind of the universe! Point of view
makes all the difference we see between
believing Muslim, Zoroast, and Jew.
Jalal al-Din Rumi
Masnavi 3
(circa 1273)
Complain about this comment
60. MagicKirin:
"Well Marc you could also call Iman Rauf for his threats to those who oppose his cultural center.
On soft ball Larry King he says if the center is not built it will encourage radical islam."
************
Yes, the imam explained that he couldn't move the center's site because if he did, it would incite the extremists and Americans abroad would be placed at risk.
Then this lunatic in Florida threatens to burn a Koran and we hear again that if he does it, he will incite extremists and place Americans abroad at risk.
There is a pattern here.
Complain about this comment
Like blowing up Buddah's statue in Afghanistan. How many Muslims condemned that? Any insensitivity there? Funny how a double standard prevails. It is so blatent. The Europeans have always had their tails between their legs, this is why the US needs to withdraw for NATO, UN, and these other you pay, you bleed organizations. Time to take care of our own country. With our own country failing in defending its own borders due to a radical administration.
Complain about this comment
At #67 MA11 wrote
"I am disgusted by a military that is the most powerful ever assembled anywhere in human history lavishly equipped with every conceivable modern weapon of war cowering ineffectively faced with bands of primitives hiding in caves"
You mean like the most powerful military ever assembled being unable to defeat a bunch of farmers and patriots hiding behind trees in 1776 or the most powerful military ever assembled being unable to control the French or Dutch or Norwegian resistance in 1943 or the most powerful military ever assembled being unable to beat a bunch of 5'5", 145lb rice farmers dressed in black pajamas and hiding in tunnels in 1968??
I could cite numerous other examples but I think I made the point. A foreign military, however powerful and well equipped will ultimately be defeated (or declare victory and pull out) by a native insurgency that is dedicated and prepared to pay any price and fight for as long as is necessary.
Such is the lesson of history that so many of our leaders have apparently never read.
Complain about this comment
re #71
I should have added that since you take your nom de plume from Roman antiquity you must be aware that the vaunted Roman legions, the most powerful military ever assembled in the history of the world to that point, were ultimately brought to their knees by a band of primitives called Huns.
Complain about this comment
71. At 04:51am on 10 Sep 2010, qmrfc67 wrote:
"I could cite numerous other examples but I think I made the point. A foreign military, however powerful and well equipped will ultimately be defeated (or declare victory and pull out) by a native insurgency that is dedicated and prepared to pay any price and fight for as long as is necessary."
You left out one. Japan circa 1945. But we all know the outcome of that one.
But to your point. There is no such thing as limited military engagement. It's either all out, collateral damage and all or keep your gun holstered.
That's the lesson many of our leaders need to learn.
Complain about this comment
"Mr Obama is the one whose armies occupy two muslim countries, and send drones to the third muslim country, he is the one who supports the occupation of a fourth muslim nation...Mr obama has to critisize anti islam trend in america...otherwise Mr obama will have a tough time with the lots of puppet muslim leaders who allow him to exploit the muslim countries..If tomorrow Mr obama stops interefering in muslim countries, and allow anti islamic sentiments in usa, the muslims outside of usa will not even care, what americans do inside its borders.." colonelartist
And so Kosovo is not an occupation of a foreign countries land, by a Nation of Occupation? Like Bosnia wasn't colonized by Islamics, also an occupation. What next the Islamic Republic of France, or the United Kingdom of Islam, if Muslims should decide to form an Islamic state within these states? Changing demographics or invasion? Its coming.........
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Diverticulosis,
I'm puzzled by your reference to Japan in 45. How was the Japanese military empire in any sense related to a native insurgency fighting a foreign force on its own soil?
I agree, however, with your point about limited military engagement. That was the Colin Powell argument about the way the Pentagon attempted to fight the Iraq war under Rumsfeld. Many of the problems we encountered in the years after the invasion were a result of not having enough troops on the ground. My God we went in with just over 100k. We occupied Germany with 6 million, not counting the Brits and the Russians who had a few million more between them.
The inherent danger in all out war is where it leads. Truman faced great criticism for attempting to limit Korea but was swayed by Marshall others that greater involvement could start WW3. The same argument occurred in Vietnam with the "Nuke Hanoi" crowd.
I would submit that any all out war in Afghanistan, collateral damage be damned, would leave us without a single friend or ally in the world, (admittedly we don't have too many as is), and create 100 new Jihadists for every one we kill.
Complain about this comment
64. At 02:34am on 10 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:
"I find it extremely confusing and bizarre that the Florida Imam told Pastor Jones that a deal was made, now the New York Imam is saying No there is no such thing...who is telling the truth here? ..."
Deal or no deal?"
Lucy, you haven't been paying attention to the Colonel, now have you?
KScurmudgeon
Complain about this comment
Maybe we should send Jimmy Carter or even Jesse Jackson to talk to Rev. Jones, since they've both traveled in harms way before to talk to nuts, despots or zealots and secure the release of hostage Americans. Not quite Rev. Wright's Vietnam service or even Charlie Rangel's Korean service, but it's something. We're being held hostage by this nut in Florida when there are far bigger fish to fry (China trade, operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, real politics and problems to solve at home)
The 'first blood' chip on our shoulder overlooks what came since 9/11: invading Afghanistan (the justifiable post-9/11 war) and killing or dispersing the taliban. The tragic death of the "Lion of Panshir", and OBL slipping away from Tora Bora. The unjustified war in Iraq, which took our eyes off Afghanistan, when Iraq had less to do with 9/11 than Saudi Arabia - and we knew that! (read "Hubris" or "Fair Game"). These ongoing wars, longer than our revolution, with more dead and wounded soldiers and civilians every month. Lots of 2nd blood.
And what came before 9/11: post WWII partition, imperial and post-empire oil companies, invasions, post WWI arbitary redrawing of the entire region, WWI sides chosen after the colonial era, pirates and the "Shores of Tripoli", King Sobieski and the Turks, El Cid and the Moors, Crusades in the Holy Land - and lots more before that.
And re-hashing all that blood blinds us to about a half-billion Muslims in other parts of Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Americas, who make good allies or neighbors.
I can't think of any international news that offends or angers me more than the imminent stoning of the Iranian mother, who was already flogged out of mistaken identity. But that's about as far from being representative of many Muslims as blowhards like Rev. Jones or worse types like Warren Jeffs or Jim Jones, the Inquisition, KKK, etc. are of many Christians.
Read Matthew again and move on - see the current peace talks for example as a better subject.
Complain about this comment
I oppose the book burning on the grounds that no one should needlessly offend other people.
However, he raises an interesting point.
It is clearly his constitutional right to carry out a protest. But he should exercise good sense by not taking up that right. He knows it will offend, so stop.
Is this not also the case with the ground zero mosque?
They have every right to build a mosque where ever they want. But they now know it offends people. Should they not stop on the same grounds?
A reasonable solution to me seems to be a clear and overt linkage - he stops if they stop.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
'This affair provides Muslims world-wide the opportunity to ignore an idiotic act and prove, by their apathy, that Islam is indeed a peaceful and tolerant religion.
...........................................................................
You have expressed a ton of sense in the above sentence, and I heartily concur.
Unfortunately, a lot, maybe most Muslims worldwide know only one way to live. This includes hatred, explosives, knives, murder and suicide.
Complain about this comment
Right now in the US mosques building is up 58% from a year ago. This is a fact that was recently reported. Another fact recently reported is not all Muslims are terrorist, but all terrorists of late have been Muslim.
Invasions of other lands have been classified as illegal immigration, and demographics, this slow train is starting to speed up. One bright spot will be the public as well as offical agencies watching more for terrorists. Sensitivity doesn't exist on the Islamic side of the house at present, AL Noor a Muslim religious school in New York, teaches that 911 was in a way justified, the closest thing to a Madrassa here in the US, along with many mosques.
Complain about this comment
71, qmrfc67 wrote “A foreign military, however powerful and well equipped will ultimately be defeated (or declare victory and pull out) by a native insurgency that is dedicated and prepared to pay any price and fight for as long as is necessary”
This is just non-sense. In actuality, your examples imply the opposite. The American War of Independence was won by American regulars and their French allies who also aided with a naval blockade. The actions of French, Dutch and Norwegian resistance actions were nothing but crime statistics for the Nazi occupiers. The USA withdrawal from Vietnam was accomplished with Christmas Bombing of Hanoi by B52s to ‘persuade’ the recalcitrant North Vietnamese to return to the negotiating table so that the Nixon Administration could conjure up a ‘face-saving’ settlement.
I think you overrated the local insurgents, and underrated the superior military forces’ incompetence and lack of purposeful determination. The Huns were the invaders and just because they had ‘portable’ statehood, this did not mean they were ‘primitives on war’. The Romans like modern-day resource utilisers were befuddled with the fundamental problem of budgeting. Hence, on paying gold tributes to ever-demanding barbarians had depleted their capability to fund their own military defenses.
If somebody has tools ranging from a fly-whisk to a sledgehammer to a fly spray, but has problems making a proper choice in picking the right tool… the escaping fly is just lucky.
Complain about this comment
Can anybody smell the rain in the wind? There's a storm a brewin'.
Complain about this comment
Both the act of burning the book (the Heine warning mentioned before is most appropriate) and the over-hysterical reaction of Muslim world-leaders is a symptom of the religious-nuttery and irrationality that the world seems to be slipping toward.
Those of us who have passed beyond adherence to these baneful institutions can only hang on and hope that they will become no more than cultural curiosities sooner rather than later. The problem is that, in the meantime, we are all sucked into the debate by these throw-backs as if their concepts of the holy and profane should have some meaningful bearing on our existence today. The French legislature wastes time debating the odd clothing rules that some Muslim women choose to impose on themselves. Meters of newspaper columns are devoted to the exposition of what Christian theology requires of the gender or sexual orientation of its priesthood. Prime ministers meet gaggles of "religious leaders" and then indulge them in photo-ops., with a complete set of wierd headgear and robes to add colour.
So Patraeus has every practical reason to preserve the lives of his soldiers by trying to dissuade this nutcase. But in doing so, he is almost normalising the expectation of threats from the bulging-eyed, head-slappers of the other lot seeking another justification for murder.
Luckily, those of us who have moved beyod these mediaeval beliefs do not generally appropriate a right to punish "unbelievers" when they offend us. Had some US pastor decided to burn 200 copies of "Origin of the Species" (a very plausible eventuality given the Bible-belt hatred poured out constantly against the theories of evolution), then Gen. Patraeus might disapprove, but need not feel the need to intervene publicly to avert threats to his troops. It is the known propensity for inciting righteous violence on a massive scale inherent in the religions of Abraham that is the core of his problem.
Furthermore, the ability of weapons of mass-destruction to threaten us with total extinction requires a shift away from granting these religions any more credibility than we do those of, say, the ancient Egyptians or Aztecs or the worship of Mithras or Woden. If we cannot achieve this, it is only a matter of time before a lunatic wrapped-up in the perverted belief that they should bring on Armageddon to fulfil the scriptures sweeps us all away into oblivion.
Complain about this comment
It is amazing how an idiot and a very small number of people can create an international crisis with such a silly act. In the old days the media would have ignored him and he would have gone away. There is real news out there and he should not have been given the platform to exploit hatred. There is something very wrong with our world when something like this can take so much time of our leaders instead of being handled at the local level.
Complain about this comment
Some wing nut wants to burn the Koran,world wide protests against the US.
America by trying to sort out even bigger wing nuts the Taliban, protests
by many.
America decides not to intervene or is late, in any given situation, more protests.
I think it must be quite difficult being American, perhaps you guys should change your name to Acirema,& hope every one just goes away...
Complain about this comment
76. At 06:04am on 10 Sep 2010, qmrfc67 wrote:
"I'm puzzled by your reference to Japan in 45. How was the Japanese military empire in any sense related to a native insurgency fighting a foreign force on its own soil?"
Think about it, if it weren't for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Allied powers would have a native insurgency fighting a foreign force on its soil. And a fanatical one at that, with the same regard for life as the Islamic fundamentalist. Death wasn't something to be feared if it was given up defending the Chrysanthemum throne.
Complain about this comment
But doesn't this show exactly why Islam is such a violent religion that people are threatening to kill and people are burning flags and protesting. If a person of the islamic faith was to burn a bible there wouldn't be anywhere near as much coverage as this. Let him do it its a free country afterall
Complain about this comment
I was very disappointed that Danish cartoonists beat American cartoonists to the draw even though in the end they cowered and backed down. Now was our chance to catch up with them. Are we going to throw that chance away? At least we know another easy way to reach the enemy where they feel it. Now we have a psychological weapons that works, is entirely legal, and is within the power of every American to use. It is also one the US government can't take away from the American people without trying to change the Constitution and the most basic elements that define our society with it. Even if this Terry Jones guy backs down, I'm sure there will be other Americans who will not be so intimidated by our government.
Complain about this comment
At the end of the day who gives a shit.
Complain about this comment
And so Kosovo is not an occupation of a foreign countries land, by a Nation of Occupation? Like Bosnia wasn't colonized by Islamics, also an occupation. What next the Islamic Republic of France, or the United Kingdom of Islam, if Muslims should decide to form an Islamic state within these states? Changing demographics or invasion? Its coming
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If thats how future will be, than it shall be...However, right now, in the present, its Mr Obama's armies which occupy two muslim countries, his military or private contractors hired by him, which sends drones, his best buddy, nethenyahu who occupies disgustingly palestinians, he who control karzai, he who doesnt want to negotiate with iran..He who has put his soldiers in the danger zone, and he has the nerve to tell as a politician, a pastor that the lives of americans are in the pastor hands...Burning of koran comes far behind the reasons Mr Obama gives to the radical islamics to recurit people...Its all about occupation and oppression..
Complain about this comment
34. At 10:11pm on 09 Sep 2010, Rev J Hughes wrote Jonesianism.
Aparently "Rev." Jones isn't the only faux "Christian" around. These people who call themselves "Christian" but hate Jesus' wimpy peaceful ways are always much happier with the smiting and blood of the OT. Since they prefer to ignore Jesus, they should call themselves Leviticans instead of Christians.
Complain about this comment
GOD...how many gods do we want to worship? Yesterday was Rosh Hashanah. Happy New Year! Our true calendar year of this Universe is 5770. The Reverend is too slow to realize the true religion. A real man of God understands the world and humans. First of all, do no harm to others, because we are all children of GOD.
No wonder the next generation doesn't believe in God. At least, the Reverend was on TV...yep.
Complain about this comment
RE#82:
Another fact recently reported is not all Muslims are terrorist, but all terrorists of late have been Muslim.
.....
thanks for clearing that up.. I've always suspected that the real IRA and ETA were muslims disguised as catholics..
If you check your sources you will see the IRA have been more active in the last month than Bin Laden in the last year..
there favourite tactic is to kidnap taxi drivers families and order the poor taxi driver laden with bombs to drive to local police stations
Complain about this comment
Like blowing up Buddah's statue in Afghanistan. How many Muslims condemned that?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Give me one reason why muslims should have condemned blowing up of statues? However, tell me how many of you condemed the bombing away of ancient buddists caves by american ariforce? Or were you just told that those caves were built by islamics?
Complain about this comment
Some wing nut wants to burn the Koran,world wide protests against the US.
America by trying to sort out even bigger wing nuts the Taliban, protests
by many.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its because america had nothing to do with taliban..they neither participated in threatening america or burnt its flag..America made them its enemy..and now they are going to be the enemy of america, until usa withdraws..As far as pastor is concerned, he has being allowed to integrate with the main streamers like you..Who would have known that you would be defending the radical pastor, not even you a few days ago..
Complain about this comment
79. At 08:53am on 10 Sep 2010, jon112uk and others before have written: The Koran burning and building of the Islamic Cultural Center are similar. This is partially true to as both place constitutional rights in opposition to gratuitously giving offense.
However, “Rev.” Jones is engaged in what could be described as a deliberate attempt at extortion. While he has every right to burn one or a hundred Korans under the Constitution, the Muslims of new York have an equal right to build a cultural center or a hundred mosques.
Jones’ extortion discredits the opponents of the cultural center in New York, just as the proclaimed mission of the cultural center is discredited by insensitivity to the feelings of many Americans.
All concerned are being insensitive, provocative and disingenuous, and they all should be ashamed, as should the pandering politicians and media who have hyped the story.
Complain about this comment
#83 sayasay
Your points are well taken but I stand by my premise.
I question your definition of the Continental Army as "regulars". Regulars are professional soldiers such as we have today or the Roman Legions. The Continental Army was an organized, uniformed army but still essentially citizen soldiers, volunteers for a cause.
The Germans were ultimately defeated by the superior numbers and firepower of the allies but, simple crime statistics or not, they were never able to defeat the resistance movements despite draconian reprisals.
The Israelis have fought the Palestinian resistance for 43 years since the 67 war with an incredibly well equipped and well trained military and are no closer to defeating it now than when they started.
Yes the Christmas bombing brought the North Vietnamese to the negotiating table. We pulled out and less than 2 years later they rolled into Saigon.
The Brits fought and supposedly beat the Mau Mau in Kenya but 10 years later their leader, Kenyatta, was President of Kenya. The Brits pulled out of Ireland in 1922 when they got sick of endless fighting.
Perhaps I should not have used the phrase "defeated". More often what happens is the foreign power sooner or later gets sick of the whole thing and negotiates a way out. The VC knew they could never actually defeat the US but they were prepared to keep fighting for as long as it took for us to say the hell with it. This is what I think will happen sooner or later between Israel and Palestine. I'm convinced that had the French not intervened and the British not surrendered at Yorktown sooner or later they would have tired of the war and domestic public opinion would have forced a negotiated withdrawal. The Afghan tribesmen fought the Russians for 10 years and have fought us or 10 years and whether we say we are leaving in 2011 or 2031 will make no difference to them. When we leave they will still be around.
Diverticulosis' point, with which I agreed, is the only way to win this is with massive all out war and a total marshall law type military occupation and no nation can sustain that kind of expense forever. Sooner or later the locals always win (or get annihilated eg native Americans in North and Central America.)
Complain about this comment
At the end of the day who gives a shit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr obama, gates, and hilary..at the end of the day its they who have to bring home the soldiers alive with some face saving victory for the americans, and equally face saving "liberation" for the afghanis..Next comes, those who oppress their own people because of usa..
Complain about this comment
because we are all children of GOD.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not a child of G-d..I have a father, and I am too proud of him to replace him with G-d.
Complain about this comment
My fave bit of the great book of peace - though you're really spoilt for choice: Excerpt K 8:012 Set 28, Count 62
"...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."
I guess Mark and all his BBC mates just can't see how such an ancient peaceful document leads to gay teenagers being strung up on the streets of Tehran or women being publicly stoned to death. Pastor Jones - not clever - but where are your howls of outrage for this BBC?
Complain about this comment
"They have every right to build a mosque where ever they want. But they now know it offends people. Should they not stop on the same grounds?"
Situation 1: A "pastor" decides to burn books that nearly 2 billion people consider to be the holy word of god. People offended by this act have every right to be (setting aside any physical reaction for the moment) because he and his followers are desecrating their holy book. It would be like if someone decided to hold a public Bible-burning rally because a handful of Catholic priests sexually abused children.
Situation 2: A Muslim organization wants to build a community center two blocks away from Ground Zero. People offended by this fact can't tell the difference between a handful of cave-dwellers with a socio-political grudge and nearly 2 billion people living normal, peaceful lives. (This would be like getting offended because someone wants to build a YMCA near where a pro-life group bombed an abortion clinic.)
In both situations, people are offended, you're right about that. The difference is the reasons behind why people are offended. If everyone stopped their plans every time someone got offended in this country we'd never get anything done!
Complain about this comment
"Like blowing up Buddah's statue in Afghanistan. How many Muslims condemned that?"
Pay attention to the people who condone, not those who simply fail to condemn. You are attacking this from a position of "guilty until proven innocent". I haven't heard you condemn neo-Nazism yet, but I'm not going to assume that means you support it.
Complain about this comment
Burning the Quran will not change Islam, discourage Muslims or change the Word of Allah, which is what the Quran is. Why doesn't Mr. Jones debate the Quran from his scriptures. Compare them. Seems either he can't or won't which also leads me to think this is but a self-serving. A flock of only 30 or so followers seems hardly enough to keep him clothed and fed.
Complain about this comment
Hate is becoming the most powerful emotion on this planet. Islam is no more evil than Christianity when in comes to reviewing history. They weren't called Religous Wars for nothing!
We have hate crime laws in the USA and I hope the members and leader of this "church" are charged the minute they strike a match. There is no place for these attention seeking crazies other then in a cell where they cannot harm others.
Complain about this comment
Cynosarges (post #22) should read stlouisgal1978's post (#25). The right will hoot and holler that our troops are in danger when Abu Ghraib pictures are released and a timeline is set for withdrawal from Afghanistan, but Cynosarges has apparently decided that the Koran burning is not terribly important in the grand scheme of things, despite threats and protests that would signify otherwise.
People burn our flags and we're not going to go out and massacre because we're (supposed to be) civilized people, so that's a non-starter.
FYI there has been a huge outcry from all sides, the left included, at the massacres in the Sudan. Neither W nor Obama sent troops there to stop it.
Complain about this comment
TXB;
"We have hate crime laws in the USA and I hope the members and leader of this "church" are charged the minute they strike a match."
You really don't understand what America is about. Burning a Koran is not a hate crime because burning a book, any book is not a crime in America. When it becomes a crime, every other freedom you have will be gone too.
Complain about this comment
While the Koran book burning fury sweeps across continents, a Muslim group in Scunthorpe are taking a stand against the hostility.
The Ahmadiyya Muslim Association invited a local Christian group to their mosque in Scunthorpe to exchange religious scriptures, aimed at encouraging peace, respect and solidarity between all faiths and communities
"We asked our neighbours and other people around us and they said that they would be very happy to exchange holy books as a sign to show that we all respect each others views, religion, leaders and books as well, so that's why we're doing this."
Mr Ahmad hopes the scriptural exchange will promote solidarity between all communities globally.
"It will at least tell people locally that we all live in harmony, we respect each other and it will tell rest of the world that this is not the way to behave, aggression doesn't get you anywhere."
Scunthorpe has the largest Muslim population throughout the East Yorkshire and Northern Lincolnshire region.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/humberside/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8989000/8989639.stm
Complain about this comment
99, qmrfc67
You seem to agree with me as you and diverticulosis' thought that the “right tool” is “massive all out war and a total marshall law type military occupation”, without, of course, the giving up part when the going gets expensive.
Your perspective is too much of US Army Command and General Staff College. The example of Israel was a bit of misrepresentation, using brains, brawn and superior firepower; she is able to survive for the last 62 years, surrounded by belligerent neighbours and displaced Palestinians. If you have studied how the caliphates moved outside the Arabian Peninsula and conquered the Levant, Sassanid Persia, North Africa and Spain. You would be impressed that it could be done, complete with the dissemination of a politico-religious ideology, Islam. In your analysis, do not be distracted by its latter civil wars and break-up, which were just manifestations of political dynamics.
The nearest modern equivalent we had was USSR and its Warsaw Pact allies; only the politics was preached and nothing for the soul, lasted about 44 years. And in 1989, the Warsaw Pact voluntarily wound up as its champion, the USSR ‘overdosed’ on communism.
Complain about this comment
MAII
I am disgusted at a general who is worried about provoking the enemy to violence. I am disgusted by a military that is by far the most powerful ever assembled anywhere in human history lavishly equipped with every conceivable modern weapon of war cowering ineffectively faced with bands of primitives hiding in cav
This is nuts. Where do you come up with these almightly illusions of grandeur? They haven't won a war since beating Japan in 1945. Remember Vietnam when they cowered off the roof via the helicopters? How about the latest...Iraq..very small country both size and wealth wise and they can't even controll them. Then of course, Afghanistan... it'll never end until they put their tails between their legs and come home,Oh, I did forget Grendada...does that make you all misty eyed when you recall that conquest ol' philosopher king?
More than anything, this kind of insanity, hubris, will be the undoing of this country.The US can't even find bin laden....what is wrong with you?
Complain about this comment
The Ahmadiyya Muslim Association invited a local Christian group to their mosque in Scunthorpe to exchange religious scriptures, aimed at encouraging peace, respect and solidarity between all faiths and communities
"We asked our neighbours and other people around us and they said that they would be very happy to exchange holy books as a sign to show that we all respect each others views, religion, leaders and books as well, so that's why we're doing this."
Mr Ahmad hopes the scriptural exchange will promote solidarity between all communities globally.
"It will at least tell people locally that we all live in harmony, we respect each other and it will tell rest of the world that this is not the way to behave, aggression doesn't get you anywhere."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
No offence to this community, because I have many close and far relatives who belong to this community, but it would have been better for them if they had shown so much openess when their headquarter was in pakistan..But, in pakistan, they are more focused on getting themselves segregated...
Complain about this comment
Why doesn't Mr. Jones debate the Quran from his scriptures.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why should he, for 9 yrs he has constanly heard from every mainstreamer, and leader in usa that islam is the cause of 9/11..
Complain about this comment
108. At 6:54pm on 10 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Burning a Koran is not a hate crime because burning a book, any book is not a crime in America. When it becomes a crime, every other freedom you have will be gone too."
____________
Conveniently for many, it is also not a crime to be either stupid or foolish.
And if some American kid fighting overseas is killed because of this, that Pastor and his church had better be ready for a lawsuit launched by the kid's parents.
Just because America has freedom of speech doesn't mean you should use that freedom carelessly.
Complain about this comment
And if some American kid fighting overseas is killed because of this,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And when some american kid fighting overseas is killed, he will be killed because he is fighting overseas...
Complain about this comment
I love how each time some idiot shows insensitivity and hate towards Islam, the Islamic people strive to show that nobody can out hate them? It's like some kind of "Pakistan's got Hatred" reality TV show out there, right now!
I agree with Palin (and thank you SO much fundies for making me ever have to write that) when she says that Burning books is obviously wrong, but it doesn't really seem on the same level as burning children.
We had this before with the Danish cartoonists - I really think that someone should just call their bluff and ride out the storm at some point.
Complain about this comment
IF;
"Conveniently for many, it is also not a crime to be either stupid or foolish."
It depends on what it is that you do that is stupid or foolish. Some things that are stupid and foolish like investing in BP are legal, some like robbing a bank are not.
"And if some American kid fighting overseas is killed because of this, that Pastor and his church had better be ready for a lawsuit launched by the kid's parents."
The case would be thrown out prima fascae. There is no legal precedent for it, no basis in American law. I'm not an attorney but even I know that.
"Just because America has freedom of speech doesn't mean you should use that freedom carelessly."
In fact, in many cases including this one, you can use it carelessly whether it is foolish or not.
Complain about this comment
We had this before with the Danish cartoonists -
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am sure you would have thought twice if you had cared to google about the danish newspaper that published those caricatures...It doesnt have a good record...it was the same newspaper which blamed the jews on the crystal night...I do hope you know what sort of night it was....
Complain about this comment
110 Sayasay
I agreed with Diverticulosis on the ineffectiveness of limited war. I believe total war to be a non option for many reasons. The conclusion I am left with is that the right tool is to get the hell out asap.
I believe the best strategy for dealing with the rise of radical Islam is essentially covert ops. The more nut jobs like rev Jones scream from the rooftops the more inflamed the problem gets.
When Brit paras gunned down 13 people on Bloody Sunday the world was outraged, meanwhile the SAS was quietly knocking people off left right and center and all it rated was a couple of lines at the bottom of page 3 ("2 bodies were discovered" etc. "No details available" etc)
TR had it right "speak softly and carry a big stick".
I haven't studied the expansion of the Caliphates and will certainly add it to my reading list
Complain about this comment
@DenverGuest (107)
For someone who is supposedly an American resident, you seem to hold the laws of your residence in contempt. In this incident, as in the previous case of Kurt Westergaard, the first reaction of today's politicians appears to be suppressing free speech. (except when the speakers call for Rushdie, Westergaard, Fortuyn ... to be murderer)
And I challange you to prove your assertion that "there has been a huge outcry from all sides, the left included, at the massacres in the Sudan". For 3 years I worked overlooking Trafalgar Square - the site in the UK for the biggest demonstrations. There were precisely two demonstrations against the Darfur genocide that made the news - one of which I attended. And NO Labour politicians, just two LibDems and three Tories.
The two demonstrations managed to attract a whole 3 minutes of TV reporting. And the BBC did two 30-min documentaries on BBC2 (the TV channel that few people watch). Judging by the attention the news channels place on it, this episode appears to equal, if not surpass, their entire reporting on the Darfur tragedy. I saw no signs of any "huge outcry" over Darfur. The outcry about one idiotic preacher, however ...
Complain about this comment
If I lived in the northeast, I would be protesting at the White House. We have a US president who does not uphold the constitution. Following what he hears from other societies, Obama is removing the US citizens' rights himself. He is a radical Muslims' dream US president. There will be no freedom of religion without freedom of speech. Agnostics, this includes your own interests. You are being used to destroy this country.
Complain about this comment
121. At 3:37pm on 11 Sep 2010, Grateful_Free wrote:
"If I lived in the northeast, I would be protesting at the White House. We have a US president who does not uphold the constitution. Following what he hears from other societies, Obama is removing the US citizens' rights himself. He is a radical Muslims' dream US president. There will be no freedom of religion without freedom of speech. Agnostics, this includes your own interests. You are being used to destroy this country."
You are a mnouthpiece for FOX, Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck and the rest. Name 1, ONE, right you don't have now that you had three years ago. Don't forget the Patriot Act was a gift from Bush Cheney.
How is he destroying your constitutional rights and freedom of speech, etc. when he states that the pastor and Islamic Center are both protected by the Bill of Rights? What really irks you is that he tried to persuade the Pastor not to do something stupid, antagonistic and unChristian. You also probably want to amend the Bill of rights to look like this:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion[except for white, Protestant Christianity which shall be the law of the land], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof [except for Muslims, pagans and people not liked by white southern Protestants]; or abridging the freedom of speech [except for non WASPS], or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances [if WASPS, or at least FOX/GOP/TEA Party].
Well, it DOESN'T say that, President Obama stood up for what it does say, and if you think you could impose your medieval interpretation on places like New England you are even more delusional than I suspected.
"Agnostics, this includes your own interests. You are being used to destroy this country." And you are a religious bigot as well, your kind are still preaching that the Pope is the Anti-Christ. Well, surprize, surprize the largest denomination in the US is the Roman Catholic Church.
Of course your crowd probably has plans to rid the country of Agnostics, Gays, Liberal Protestants, Unitarians, Mormons and Roman Catholics when you take over. Possibly Gypsies as well? I have heard of people like you somewhere, and a very unAmerican bunch you have always been.
You so called "Christians" are often nothing of the kind. You ignore what Jesus said [put up your sword, turn the other cheek, why complain about the mote in your neighbors eye when there is a boulder in your own, etc.] all that wimpy, socialist, pacifist bunk. What you people really like is the blood and guts smiting of the Old Testament. You really should call yourselves Leviticans.
Complain about this comment
@ JMM
I'm a devout, active Catholic and highly educated. Wow. Your assumptions of someone who disagrees with you are incorrect. Check my other posts. I believe you're the pawn. Actually, I believe we're all pawns when we fight against each other, thinking it's about religion. There's always been an abundance of religious tolerance in the US. I'm just here to make sure the quiet conservatives are heard, and we're not all PC'd out of our freedom. If you didn't vote for Obama, and you didn't vote for McCain, you voted for Obama (you withheld a vote from those opposing the tidal wave that was Obama's agenda) - it's the way the wind blows now. It'll happen again even if you hate me for saying it. And quit making fun of my name.
Complain about this comment
123. At 8:07pm on 12 Sep 2010, Grateful_Free
I apologized [on another string] for offending you about your name. I also pointed out, point by point, how your diatribe was nonsense. You were certainly not trained by the Jesuits, they would never have made those statements. And, yes, I lumped you in with the right-wing "Christian" folks [BTW I always use "..." because arrogating Christian to themselves and excluding Roman Cathoilics is obnoxious.]
How is it that you sound just like an anti-Obama right-wing "Christian"? You do realize that they do still think that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, I didn't make that up [check it out]. I don't like the Democratic Party. Here in Massachusetts it is almost a one-party state, and the Democrats are corrupt.
But how could I vote for the party of Bush, Cheney and brainless Palin? The party that gave us the so-called Patriot Act [that really attacks our constitutional rights], that tried to ram evangelical Christian morality down everyone's throat.
If you think I mis-stated or lied it is for you to provide the proof.
As to the "tidal wave of Obama's agenda," that I need to tell you how absurd that is is unbelievable. Some tidal wave, he wasn't able to get a decent health care bill through because of corrupt democrats working with corrupt GOP [both wholly owned by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries] legislators.
Can you tell me ONE instance of Obama's taking away or even diminishing your rights or swamping [tidle wave!] the opposition, just one.
I don't hate you, I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for the millions of Americans [including Sarah Palin] whose educations were faulty, and who, as a result, can't tell truth from propaganda, and can't make a logical case for anything. Moreover, I feel sorry for my country; undereducated, overly emotional and illogical people are not going to be able to keep the democracy we inherited.
My Catholic mother, may she rest in peace, always listened to Rush Limbaugh. She parroted back the same nonsense, but age dimmed facilities don't make for great propaganda detectors. You are free to have any opinion, but if you want to be taken seriously you have to back it up with facts and examples.
I repeat, give me facts and examples, not I feel, or I think. Jesuit teachers would not [at least when I was a student] let you get away with such sloppy debating. Since one of my master's degrees is in history and political science, I think I am qualified to discuss the topic accurately and intelligently, and to judge the evidence, if you ever offer any.
There is one paranoid point that we both agree on. The country is being deliberately divided against itself. The problem is that the country has been divided into several camps, the undereducated, the extremists [left and right], the educated but disinterested or illinformed, the overeducated [often PC blinded], and ideologically impaired intellectuals [also both left and right].
Complain about this comment
Sloppy debating? Well, I'll try. I hope I'm not being graded. I'm just trying to fit this in and get back to work!
Another thing I don’t like about Obama is that his real estate tax is going to pry my inheritance out of my awesome father’s hard-earned and scrimpted coffer. All we gave up for naught, and we did give up. Oh, I could go on about how much wiser people are with their own money than the government ever could be. The govt isn’t going to feed the hungry, clothe the poor. The thrift-store or goodwill or the city food bank is. Jesus wasn’t forcing his listeners to do anything (even believing in him), he was advising it. Over-taxing the hand that feeds us, the companies that have always had the power to create real and lasting jobs, is a bad idea. We will always suffer from greed, but how much charitable religious organizations have done financially and with real manpower for people in the US is remarkable. I think people aren’t close enough to their churches anymore to realize this.
About having a number of college degrees: It doesn’t prove one is smarter than anyone else. In fact, having one’s head in academia for so long means what? When I was younger, the Jesuits didn’t accept girls. I can’t speak about Rush, because I’ve never heard him. I can’t listen to angry people who are full of themselves or have that mannerism. Hannity, Coulter, John Stewart, Rachel Maddow – barf! And I miss Tim Russert, may he rest in peace! Good day and may God bless us all!
Complain about this comment
re 21 TFatima "I am a muslim by birth, have received education in a christian school and have lived a significant part of my life amongst hindus. I know polytheism as much as I understand and believe in monotheism.
There are only two kinds of humans. One who are born with a meaningful purpose of life and others who need to find a meaningful purpose in life. Irrespective of faith, most humans belong to the first category. Amongst the second category, lies the devil's workshops, all those who try to create discord and the ludicrous dramas to entertain the satan and the rest of the world.
It's difficult to ignore any disrespect to the book but as a muslim I would prefer not to react to Mr. Jones words or actions at all. Because I know that Koran says, Patient constancy is the firmness of purpose in the conduct of affairs. Rev. Jones has no firmness of purpose in his conduct of this irresponsible and unnecessary affair but muslim community can exhibit patient constancy in their faith that the book is indestructible if there is a god and their God is the God!
Written with a passion for my faith, for the god I believe in, for the sanctity of human relationships, for the nobility of the god fearing spirits and in the memory of him whom god created in his own image and whose progeny finds it difficult to live by that image!"
Yours is by far the most sensible of all the the postings I have read regarding this whole sorry business. It sums up perfectly my own feeling, and those of 99% (both Muslim and not) of my family, friends, and colleagues.
Thank you for taking the time to write it.
Yours in patient constancy,
L. Stuart from Canada
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Dear moderators,
I apologize for trying to be religiously neutral and including the word "peace" in several foreign languages in post #127.
Wouldn't it streamline the process if the automatic filter that you are known to use were set to remove foreign words? I certainly wouldn't object if you just deleted them.
There should, of course, be an appeal process as some British words are "foreign" to Americans and "vice versa." The last word is "foreign," but I believe it occurs in both British and American.
Thanks for your consideration.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS