Did Obama 'elevate' Florida pastor?
President Barack Obama has explained why he dealt so directly with a small Florida church's plan to burn copies of the Koran, and he addressed the concern that his response creates a situation in which any fringe group can grab the attention of the White House and the world by making such threats.
The news conference was dominated by questions about the economy, but the president made it clear that the burn threat could do "profound damage" to America's national interest.
"The idea that we would burn the sacred text of someone else's religion is contrary to what this country stands for," he said.
He was asked why nine years after 9/11, America seems more uneasy about Islam than ever before. He replied that at a time when the country was anxious, fears and divisions could surface. He said that one of the things he admired most about former President George W Bush was his insistence that America was not at war with Islam but with killers and terrorists.
He talked of his own Christian faith and said he understood religion could provoke passion, but that America was one nation under God, whatever the name of that God.
Asked directly if he had "elevated" the pastor, he said that he didn't want a situation where anyone in the country who wanted attention could get it by threatening to burn a Koran. But he said as commander in chief of the US military, he had a clear duty to send a message. It is indeed an awkward dilemma, and while the president will be criticised for speaking out, not answering the questions clearly would be unthinkable. Expressing his concern doesn't really answer whether he will speak out every time someone proposes a similar stunt.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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I'm assuming Obama got involved to create a PR message that could be broadcast abroad, one that would calm versus enflame.
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I listened to the press conference today and was again impressed with Obama's ability to address the nation. Do I think he should be involved in every minor controversy? Absolutely not. However, when a local story snowballs as this has, you have to expect he will be asked about it, and I would hope he is prepared with an answer. I think he was very diplomatic about the situation. He did not seem to want to dwell too much on this subject.
I would have been much happier if we were reading now about the proposed economic plans he addressed during the press conference. Once again I feel we are being led off the path of issues that truly matter. I know that sensationalism sales, but I think most of us really want to discuss the future of the economy.
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"Did Obama 'elevate' Florida pastor?"
Maybe he has by making him one of the few people left in America who is willing to exercise his constitutional right to speak out in public no matter who it offends, no matter what retribution he might face from angry Moslems.
But President Obama lowered himself. He not only failed to defend the constitution that he swore to upon taking the oath of office but he has used his office and his government has used its power to deny an American citizen his most basic right that it guaranteed under it. And make no mistake, President Obama knew exactly what he was doing having been a Constitutional scholar himself.
It should be known that the Constitution would not have been adopted by the states without the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments which further restrict the power of government. This is because without them the government was seen by the signers as too powerful having too much ability to impose its will on individuals. And the right of free speech is the first such right that it guarantees.
The politically correct society America has become where it is a crime to offend people has made a shambles of the Constitution. We now have selective enforcement extending and inventing rights that don't exist such as the right of illegal aliens to enter and stay in the US, the right of enemy terrorists to avoid being tortured for information to prevent mass murder of Americans and selective denial of rights by now not allowing offense of a religion by burning a book. The Constitution is dead, the Republic is in dire trouble. We are one step removed from a dictatorship. And most Americans don't even see it.
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Where is the ACLU? Why haven't they spoken out. Traitors and hypocrites.
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he admired most about former President George W Bush was his insistence that America was not at war with Islam but with killers and terrorists.
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Yes, sure..In good old simple days, this would have been called, divide and rule...Americans will keep on extending its wars against muslims, and keep on expanding its terrorist and killers boundries...usa started the war against islam together with the crusader blair, and by the way, obama has just repeated blair's sentence from the book that, radical islam is threat to the world..When they fight against muslims, in islamic countries, using the name of islam, then it becomes a war against islam.
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It was easier for Mr obama to stop a person from burning koran, than to stop himself from sending drones...
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The whole mosque debate and now this Koran burning is so funny in a weird sort of way. This is what America has come to. Well, some people say that Americans have always been like that: ignorant and sniveling. Some are complaining about a mosque that is two blocks away from G-0, in a cramped borough of Manhattan where every block is considered a neighborhood.
The biggest affront to Muslims is the comparison of building this mosque with Auschwitz. Here there are people who have killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and now have anointed themselves as the holiest. They also forget that more than 200 Muslims died in 9/11 attacks or roughly 8% of the victims.
It all boils down to bigotry and the fact that the war is really against the Muslims. Sorry but that seems to be the fact. It would be funny to watch the mosque issue at the forefront of the November elections when the US economy is in shambles.
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"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire must be turning over in his grave right now. Most people in America probably don't know who Voltaire was, never heard of him. They don't know what their rights are, what they mean, what it took to win them, how easily they could lose them, and how potentially dangerous government, any government really is. This could well be the beginning of the end of American democracy. What other rights will government try to usurp next? When and how will Americans be too intimidated to exercise their freedoms again?
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Instead of manning the ramparts, the ACLU's equivocal response proves it has abandoned its self appointed mission as the guardian of American democracy. Who is left to do it? Nobody?
http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech-religion-belief/ugly-legal-form-free-speech
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It would be funny to watch the mosque issue at the forefront of the November elections when the US economy is in shambles.
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It wont be, just occupation never has been a major issue during election times..
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The news conference was dominated by questions about the economy, but the president made it clear that the burn threat could do "profound damage" to America's national interest.
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And occupation doesnt damage american national interest? Islamists are not at war with the radical religious in the west..they know that radical religious in the west can only pull up stunts like burning koran or make the general population anti-islamic..its the mainstreamers and the politics of the west that islamic religous fight against, because they are the ones who actually occupy and oppress the muslims of the globe.
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@ 3&4 MarcusAureliusII
The president did not demand and make it illegal for the Pastor to go through with his book burning. If anything, he excercised his own freedom of speech by asking the pastor not to do it. Granted his request holds a lot of power, but asking him not to voice his concern would be asking him not to excercise the rights granted to him by the constitution.
Keep in mind that freedom of speech does not mean you are free from consequences. The pastor was denied a permit for the book burning from the local authorities before it became a national sensation. If he follows through with it he could be cited by his local authorities. But of course, if that happened, we all know it would be shouted to his rights are being violated.
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The president did not demand and make it illegal for the Pastor to go through with his book burning. If anything, he excercised his own freedom of speech by asking the pastor not to do it. Granted his request holds a lot of power, but asking him not to voice his concern would be asking him not to excercise the rights granted to him by the constitution.
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As a politician he cannot interfere in the matter of church...thats what american law and regulations are..Those who support obama's intereference in the church should also have to support churche's intereference in politics..Get ready for your church to take over politics,this time, openly.
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The Muslims have every right to build a mosque. They know it offends and could choose not to exercise their right.
The pastor has a right to burn a book. He knows it offends and could choose not to exercise his right.
They build, he burns.
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President Barack Obama sees one thing clearly:
Pastor Jones scenario has now created a template which any fringe group can follow to grab the attention of the White House and the world.
Even during a news conference dominated by the economy, there was the American President making it perfectly clear that the burning threat could do "profound damage" to America's national interest.
I know and you know that Americans have not burned Korans, but they have rifle-shot them, flushed them down toilets, spat on them, and otherwise desecrated the Quran; so it bemuses me that President Obama can stand with solemn face and say, "The idea that we would burn the sacred text of someone else's religion is contrary to what this country stands for." Why didn't he simply add: but shooting someone else's religious book is okay, tearing it, mulilating it, flusing it - that's all okay. But let me make this perfectly clear: burning it is a definite no-no.
One of the things that Obama admired most about former President George W Bush was his insistence that America was not at war with Islam but with killers and terrorists, that happened to be Muslim. Yet, not one, NOT ONE 9/11 MUSLIM extremist has been tried and convicted - not one.
Why?
Obama talked of his own Christian faith and said he understood religion could provoke passion. Any religion that evokes murderous, burning passion, I doubt is a religion that is compassionate and loving. Where did God - under any name - get all this wrath and hatred? What kind of God is that? It is a God created in the image of man.
If the Commander in Chief of the US military, had wanted to send a clear message, he would have ordered the Pastor arrested for inciting a hate crime; he would have entered the gentleman into the legal system. Having handled this Pastor Jones thing so badly, what will the Commander in Chief do next time?
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13. At 7:58pm on 10 Sep 2010, colonelartist wrote:
"As a politician he cannot interfere in the matter of church...thats what american law and regulations are..Those who support obama's intereference in the church should also have to support churche's intereference in politics..Get ready for your church to take over politics,this time, openly."
I usually ignore your postings because they really have no value other than as a provocateur, and a weak one at that.
However, you really have no concept of American law. There is no "law or regulation" that a "politician" cannot interfere in "church matters". The US constitution ensures that there be no "state sanctioned religion", but that is all.
Somehow, I do feel a bit sleazy responding to one of your posts, feeling a bit taken by your provocation. I think I will feel better after a shower.
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However, you really have no concept of American law. There is no "law or regulation" that a "politician" cannot interfere in "church matters". The US constitution ensures that there be no "state sanctioned religion", but that is all.
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A politician cannot interefer in any religoius matter, just as religon or church or mosque or temple can intefere in politics...You take a shower, or you can take a dip in one of your rivers to cleanse your spirit..If politicians start controlling pastors and preists, they will also control the politicians...And tea partiers have a right to invite G-d, and religious politicians have a right to use religion in their politics, Say welcome to palin in the white house in advance..She is far ahead of every other politician when it comes to blending religon with politics..
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The media created this monster,and then BO comes along and gathers more media coverage,what lucky people we are to have such a huge interlect in the hite house !
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I think the problem here is that Muslims in far off lands fail to understand both how powerful the PotUS is and also how circumscribed that power is by law and usage.
How do you expect people who live in, say, Iran to understand that a World Leader cannot throw anyone he wants to in jail for any crime he wants to. Where Obama shrugs and says 'freedom of speech' they hear collusion. How do you make slaves understand freedom?
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This situation was elevated by a reporter's asking GEN Petraeus what he thought of a pastor in Florida having a public burning of the Koran. The General should have known better than to answer at all, and certainly had to realize immediately the very difficult, irreversible position he had created his troops, the Administration, and the peaceful people of Islam.
President Obama had little choice but to respond in some way to the media conflagration that erupted. To most of the world, it must seem absurd that "The Most Powerful Office in the World" cannot contain the kind of hatred spewing from that pastor and his ill-thought-out mode of fear and complaint.
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How do you expect people who live in, say, Iran to understand that a World Leader cannot throw anyone he wants to in jail for any crime he wants to. Where Obama shrugs and says 'freedom of speech' they hear collusion. How do you make slaves understand freedom?
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Its not as if iranians protested in streets demanding obama to send this guy to jail...Notice the absence of iranian in this whole stunt?
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Having handled this Pastor Jones thing so badly, what will the Commander in Chief do next time?
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He will tell karzai to not complain so much when his troops kill civilians, and he will tell president of pakistan to ignore the complaints of his citizens against drones..
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To most of the world, it must seem absurd that "The Most Powerful Office in the World" cannot contain the kind of hatred spewing from that pastor and his ill-thought-out mode of fear and complaint.
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Most of the world isnt stupid, you know..the most of this world is now waiting how this pastor will enter the mainstream, and when he burn koran, he will have more followers...perhaps even you...He and those who are opposed to the community center in newyork for local muslim population will now link the center with the burning of korans..
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Regarding Mark's original question, why is it that whenever Obama opens his mouth there are always some people who accuse him in this way? Was this not already a big issue before he spoke? What was he supposed to do? This could cause a lot of hurt to a lot of people if it goes ahead, surely it's important that he shows leadership, you don't do that by keeping quiet. This is just the usual suspects who don't want the President to do anything.
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Becka-USA (#12) has a valid point. We should remember that freedom of speech is limited in that it should not cause "harm" to others. For instance, I don't think you would get very far organizing a hate rally here in the States. Likewise you can't just run around the workplace calling your African American colleagues the N-word. Legally the boundaries are probably quite nebulous and each case would probably have to cite their own precedents.
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25. At 9:02pm on 10 Sep 2010, btar wrote:
"I don't think you would get very far organizing a hate rally here in the States."
Define "hate rally". I wouldn't call the KKK an organization of "love", but they have every right to rally and have received permits to do so.
"Likewise you can't just run around the workplace calling your African American colleagues the N-word."
Yes you can. There is no law against it. However, you may not have your job for long if you do.
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Regarding Mark's original question, why is it that whenever Obama opens his mouth there are always some people who accuse him in this way? Was this not already a big issue before he spoke? What was he supposed to do? This could cause a lot of hurt to a lot of people if it goes ahead, surely it's important that he shows leadership, you don't do that by keeping quiet. This is just the usual suspects who don't want the President to do anything.
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This was the time where he should not have opened his mouth...Did bush open his mouth when there was a discussion whether american mainstream tv and newspaper should publish the caricature of Mohammad?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What we are seeing is one person who represents the wackiness that erupted since Obama's election. Birthers anybody? The internet has given a voice to these people. The media piles on with volumes of methane. As H.L. Mencken said: "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
By asking the Pastor(?)not to do the burning, I believe that General Patraeus got the ball rolling on this. I'guessing that he had intellignece information that warranted his plea. Obviously, things taken a predicable downhill slide since then. Even if the deed is not done, the damage is done. Rest of the world fails to understand that the President has zero contol over the legal, individual actions of American citizens. Most he can do is go to the bully pulpit. Do you think he will
succeed? No way. If there is an opening to poke him with a sharp stick, he will be stuck.
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things happen to me evwery day that i dont like but i dont go around burning books or flags! This pastie and those around the world with their nickers in a twist over his intended actions need to get a life they are both as bad as each other. we only have one shot we may as well get on with each other while we are on gods earth... does it matter what your god is called no not really they are all one in the same!!!
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Becka-USA;
"The president did not demand and make it illegal for the Pastor to go through with his book burning."
He can't make it illegal. Nobody can. It would take a constitutional amendement to deny the right of freedom of speech, a very arduous process that would take years and has very dubious prospects of ever passing. What the Pastor wanted to do was entirely legal, he would be acting within the most basic of all rights guaranteed to him under our system of laws. It is a right deliberately put beyond the reach of those who would try to legally usurp it.
"If anything, he excercised his own freedom of speech by asking the pastor not to do it. Granted his request holds a lot of power, but asking him not to voice his concern would be asking him not to excercise the rights granted to him by the constitution."
The pressure brought to bear by the entire United States government on one individual to deny him his rights is obscene.
"Keep in mind that freedom of speech does not mean you are free from consequences."
Every tyrant in the world uses that argument to supress dissent. That is why we have freedom of speech. Tsar Obama cannot take it away and should not be excused for having tried.
"The pastor was denied a permit for the book burning from the local authorities before it became a national sensation. If he follows through with it he could be cited by his local authorities."
That is the most absurd argument of all. Do you think everyone who lights a campfire, lights a backyard barbaque, lights their fireplace and uses wood or paper for kindling needs a burning permit? This is the flimsiest of outrageous pretexts to deny someone the right to say something a lot of people don't want said. But the Pastor and his followers have every right to say it to the world, they hate Islam and they will burn its holiest book as a show of defiance and contempt for it. That is as inalienable right as Americans have whether you or anyone else likes it or not. When that right is gone, America as we know it will be gone with it.
"But of course, if that happened, we all know it would be shouted to his rights are being violated."
Would they? Everyone in the government, the press, all sides seem to be against him. This goes much further than Islam or the mosque in New York City, it goes to the core of what our society is about. And it seems it is about to lose the most precious thing it ever had, the essence of what made it what it is.
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Terry Jones is obviously an idiot, but those who compare him to Bin Laden are deluded. Bin Laden has killed thousands of innocent people. Terry Jones, although an idiot has not.
These comments are made by the same people who claim that Afghanistan was better off under the Taleban. having served in both Iraq and Afghanistan is a commissioned officer, I can assure you that it was not.
You only need to read the stories of stonings and lashings to infer that, despite the left-wing agenda, SOME elements of Islam, or interpretations of Islam are evil.
The world would be better off without religion full stop. It is all unproven and easy to 'fight for.' Islam, recently has been the source of a lot of problems...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Considering the visibility of Pastor Terry Jones' proposal, the potential effects of his proposal, and the reaction from a segment of our population, President Obama had no choice but to address this issue and remind us of the fact that while it is important to uphold our Constitutional values it is also important to consider the ramifications of our actions.
Pastor Jones' proposal was reckless and, if implemented, it may have resulted in widespread terror attacks not only against our troops, but against every American living, working or visiting abroad, against our embassies and consulates, and against our international interests.
Standing up for what we believe in is one of our greatest traditions and something we should do everything we can to preserve, but doing irresponsibly and against our national interests is the opposite to what we ought to do.
Regarding the "Mosque" controversy I believe that while all Americans - and our religious institutions - have the right to build wherever they wish (providing they have the appropiate building permit), the decision to build an Islamic Cultural Center two blocks from Ground Zero was an insensitive and provocative decision designed to provoke the same type of reaction that Pastor Jones was seeking.
Both are wrong and both should reconsider their decisions, grow up, and refrain from provocations like this in the future. The last thing the world needs is irresponsible behavior by medieval crusaders and jihadists.
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I'd go along with stance taken by Steve Jones, evolutionary biologist, professor, author (and a slightly better writer than Richard Dawkins, in my opinion).
Speaking about people who thought his books should be burnt, his view was:
"That's fine, they can burn them. As long as they pay for them first".
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The last thing the world needs is irresponsible behavior by medieval crusaders and jihadists.
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Explain what this word jihadist means.
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These comments are made by the same people who claim that Afghanistan was better off under the Taleban. having served in both Iraq and Afghanistan is a commissioned officer, I can assure you that it was not.
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Go ahead assure me that afghanistan under taleban was not better off..And you have to assure me by your personal expearence, not what you read or were told about it..
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SD
"Pastor Jones' proposal was reckless and, if implemented, it may have resulted in widespread terror attacks not only against our troops, but against every American living, working or visiting abroad, against our embassies and consulates, and against our international interests."
Do you really think this is the end of it? Do you think Jones is the only one out of 310 million Americans? This is going to happen, someone will do it, probably many times and there is nothing the US government or anyone else can do about it. That's the beauty of the internet, it makes tyranny and censorship nearly impossible especially in our society. The US government would do well to prepart to brace for it when it happens because it will happen. If not Terry Jones then someone else.
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I remember a time not too long ago when the US Government's National Endowment for the Arts paid an "artist" to display a crucifix in a bottle of urine in a New York museum. None of the people objecting to the Quran burning objected to that. That was art.
I guess the message is we respect religions of violent people and disrespect the religions of non-violent people.
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Isnt it amazing that muslims who profess to hate the west would rather live in the US than there own unlovely intolerant countries...cant see many churches being allowed to be built in Saudi, Iran, Pakistan etc..
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It seems to me that President Obama had no choice but to intervene in this instance. If retaliation by the 'radical elements' of the muslim faith is realised then he will blamed for not doing enough to prevent its happening.I think however,that this does highlight the growing influence of Islam and the reluctance of western cultures to offend its faith. The burnings of western flags and effigies is common, and not only in the middle east, yet we fail; and refuse to do anything about it.Maybe the balance has shifted too far?
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Has Obama and the certain media outlets 'elevated' the pastor?
Without any shadow of doubt!
Today I watched with shock as ITV news, Sky produced, spent the first half of programme sensationalising the story of this lone man and his very small band of followers and would they or wouldn't they burn a book. Leading questions galore, images of violent protests from middle east and threats of civil unrest and terrorism. It would seem that they were deliberately trying to unsettle us over what was a non-story that appeared on page 10 of our regional newspaper.
Hearing then that leaders from Indonesia and Afghanistan had also appeared on live addresses to the nation to also talk about it seemed extremely unusual and totally against protocol with avoiding mass panic and civil unrest. Infact, like almost inviting it. Those in the know already understand the debt these countries are in financially to WTO and obey USA requests.
And can someone please correct me if wrong but the Homeland Security and Patriot Acts brought in by Bush pretty much allow arrests in the States to happen with no required evidence but merely suspicion etc. The incitement of racial hatred alone was enough to arrest this man in a country that has no qualms with taking people off the street and locking them up so why didn't they?
I believe this is a deliberate stunt to create hostility between middle east and the west. Covert operations to do this by CIA and other Intelligence agencies has been proven, see BBC report from 2005 of British soldiers dressed as Arabs shooting indiscriminately into crowds before arrested by Iraqi police then captured and freed by special forces.
Iran next ?
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I remember a time not too long ago when the US Government's National Endowment for the Arts paid an "artist" to display a crucifix in a bottle of urine in a New York museum. None of the people objecting to the Quran burning objected to that. That was art.
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That was then,This is now...in between came Mel gibson and his film...The anti jesus art showers should have contacted the muslims...
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MAII wrote: This could well be the beginning of the end of American democracy. What other rights will government try to usurp next? When and how will Americans be too intimidated to exercise their freedoms again?
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Personally, I believe there is a growing tide of anger by some minorities towards white people, especially Christians, for our country's past history of slavery, despite the fact that it was not modern day white people who did it. Some of these people want to punish us because they are angry at our ancestors.
Just look at Black Panthers. Just look at Nation of Islam and Farnakah.
Just look at La Raza. Just look at ACLU.
Division. More division. As much hatred as KKK.
Obama is their and Hollywood's dream President. Why? He's always on their side.
But Hollywood, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, La Raza, ACLU do not represent what America truly is- only the entire American people can do that.
And this is how they are doing it. By tearing our country apart through division. No other country can conquer us. We know that. The only thing that could destroy America is division amongst Americans. Lincoln warned us. But ironically, there are millions of people in our country illegally who aren't Americans. We don't know who these people are. Yet our President wants to give millions of illegals citizenship. Right now, we have the most politically divisive President of all time.
He sticks up for illegals, he sticks up for gay rights- including changing our whole military in the time of two wars to accomodidate them so we are politcally correct, he sticks up for mosques being built overlooking Ground Zero while critizing Christian Pastors for burning Korans.
By trying to use political correctness to intimidate us into being afraid to speak. He wants to use the law against us so we are powerless.
The only thing we can do is vote out the Democrats. It seems like our last hope for the future of our country...
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@ MA - 32
["The pastor was denied a permit for the book burning from the local authorities before it became a national sensation. If he follows through with it he could be cited by his local authorities."
That is the most absurd argument of all. Do you think everyone who lights a campfire, lights a backyard barbaque, lights their fireplace and uses wood or paper for kindling needs a burning permit?]
Perhaps I should have been more clear. He filed for a bonfire permit and was denied. This is different from a fire in a backyard BBQ or fireplace.
["The president did not demand and make it illegal for the Pastor to go through with his book burning."
He can't make it illegal. Nobody can. It would take a constitutional amendement to deny the right of freedom of speech, a very arduous process that would take years and has very dubious prospects of ever passing.]
That was my point exactly. Thank you.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The incitement of racial hatred alone was enough to arrest this man in a country that has no qualms with taking people off the street and locking them up so why didn't they?
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Atlast someone said what I had been waiting to hear...all that freedom of speech and president should or shouldnt have said, and no one mentioned that was worth mentioning...And the question really is, why didnt they? why did obama, his sec of state and defence had to appeal to pastor and put the burden of american lives on his shoulders..
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There's going to be a lot happening tomorrow, especially on YouTube, so no one should be surprised for anything and everything tomorrow...
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# diverticulosis wrote: [To ColonArtist]
"I usually ignore your postings because they really have no value other than as a provocateur, and a weak one at that."
Well put. Me too.
Colon and Macho Autisticus [not to mention LucyJ and others] - Tweedledum and Tweedledee.
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There was talk, at the beginning of this debate about drones and having no right to be in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. I agree the troops of my country should not have been sent out there. However, they are not the first invaders. Iraq had large Christian populations (Read about Paul's journeys to them in the New Testament), before Islam invaded and conquered in the 6th /7th century. Today the Christians are being forced to flee into Lebanon, Jordan, etc., or be killed, merely because their faith is rightly or wrongly, linked to the largely secularised "Christian" West.. These Iraqi Christians are the original inhabitants of their country, they were there before Islamic forces from Arabia forcibly colonised them. So, yes all such invasions are wrong whether from the drones of the West or from Islamic invasions, too.
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It's downright depressing that Mr Jones has directly gone to connect this with the so-called Ground Zero Mosque and literally tried to hold it hostage for his own purposes. He's a fool if he thinks anything is up for negotiation or bargaining.
Ironically, hooking the two together has caused a major problem for the currently popular conservative (FOX) media here... it went berserk and hounded Obama like crazy over matters in New York, yet are forced to stay entirely silent on the threatened burning. Debating against Obama's stance would be to encourage the burning, which is in total contradiction to their continuous theme of the current administration allegedly taking away our freedoms left and right. Even worse, it chops away at the "secret Muslim" narrative with Obama if they're forced to agree with him on anything related to Islam. ...That's on top of it being hideously degrading to Islam in general and proving they don't at all care about constantly stirring up racial tensions.
I do sadly have to agree with the article, however. In a world where a low-quality 10 second YouTube clip can go global and cause unimaginable drama, the President has reasonable concerns about the safety of Americans worldwide. All of the protests in advance of a possibly-canceled event are proof enough of how necessary this was.
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Ref 48, colonelartist
"why did obama, his sec of state and defence had to appeal to pastor and put the burden of american lives on his shoulders.."
Because as opposed to what happens in so many Islamic dictatorships we uphold and try to protect our values and our freedoms.
Most Americans deplore what Pastor Jones is doing, but we respect his right to say and do whatever he pleases within the constraints of existing laws. Is he a racist? I dont know, but I think it is fair to assume he is a religious zealot and a man consumed by Islamophobia. Not the kind of attributes we would expect from a man who, supposedly, preaches the teachings of Jesus Christ, but that is for his parishioners to judge, not the government.
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Sorry, John, in high school, I was the Chesire Cat.
But nice try...
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do sadly have to agree with the article, however. In a world where a low-quality 10 second YouTube clip can go global and cause unimaginable drama, the President has reasonable concerns about the safety of Americans worldwide. All of the protests in advance of a possibly-canceled event are proof enough of how necessary this was.
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As if occupation of two islamic countries, and the rest which usa does to global muslims warrents safety for americans worldwide..
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Iman Rauf has caused more division and cauesed more protest for the this cultural center than the obsure pastor.
His radical islamic beliefs speak of the intoelrance by every flag burner in the moslem world
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Wow well after reading a serious amount of blogs,texts even sections of the Quran itself over the last couple of days due to my own intriguement over what all the fuss over the apparent controversy created by the now infamous Pastor Terry Jones.
I have to say the level of ignorance apparent in the world is quite frightening paricularly from the 'WEST' as we like to catagorise ourselves.
I mean seriously in this day and age and level of understanding of science,evolution etc i can't understand how anyone can even rationalise religion with a straight face how can anyone honestly believe that one supreme being created all that is apparent in our world.
Also what was going on 2011 years ago before Christ we still existed in fact evidence goes back at least 100000 years so how all of a sudden some guy comes along hears all these voices telling him to do various great and good deeds who knows.Ditto the prophet Mohammed who found enlightenment in some cave for many years and only to come out and eventually find enough people to buy into his ideology and before you know it we have Islam.
Come on people religion is today's equivalent of mass propaganda and the way things are going will be the destruction of the human race me personally i think aliens are more likely to exist than religion and i'm not too convinced on that front so come on everyone get a grip were carrying out mass atrocities on each other on the basis of this dear oh dear !!!!!!!!
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Dear Mr.Obama,
I do agree that the pastor should not burn the Korans; however, I just thought I'd remind you that "One nation under God" does not refer to multiple gods but rather the one true God of the Bible. We are not "one nation under gods!"
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Most Americans deplore what Pastor Jones is doing, but we respect his right to say and do whatever he pleases within the constraints of existing laws. Is he a racist? I dont know, but I think it is fair to assume he is a religious zealot and a man consumed by Islamophobia. Not the kind of attributes we would expect from a man who, supposedly, preaches the teachings of Jesus Christ, but that is for his parishioners to judge, not the government.
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Most americans deplore islam 24/7. Quite a few of them are pastors with more followers than this pastor...What exactly had mattered if he had gone ahead with koran burning on saturday? He should have been allowed to do so...if thats american law then law should have been upheld...the stupidity that obama presented in his one liner that somehow the troops will be in danger is the stupidity that breaks all the record..what obama is trying to project is that those whom he occupies accept the occupation and will react if some pastor will burn the koran..The oppressors cannot define how to what the oppressed will react to...Occupation is worse than burning koran..usa occupies afghanistan, if its pastor decides to burn koran, then as a oppressor he can do it...thats why those fighting the occupation fight against occupation..If the muslims were not under occupation and their leaders not in obama's pocket, the left one, this pastor would not even had dared to come up with this stundt.. 9/11 or no 9/11.
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For sure is not proper to condemn a religion based on empty hatred without knowing anything about the very religion, that is what I want to confirm here, terry jones has no basis... for his thoughts cuz he does not have any knowledge about Islam as he himself has said. another point is that Terry jones is making a big mistake by trying to burn copies of Quran as a proper way to condemn Islam. real comdemnation of any religion must be through criticizing its texts, priciples and books not by burning its holy things cuz that will inevitably ignite more hostilities between the two religions because Muslims by this type of silly actions will just feel that Terry jones only wants to make them angry. if he really knows that islam is wrong, he will straight away state his proofs in the way that will convain all people including muslims that islam is wrong, he failed to present any fact to condemn islam, that is why he resorted to trying to burn Quran. He also wrote a book "Islam is of devil"condemning islam, all this is based upon knowing nothing about islam. jimmy swaggart did exactly the same without knowing anything about islam. now how will u feel if someone comes over to criticize u upon knowing nothing about u? i am sure that u will not only know that he is very stupid but he will also provoke u. this is what is happening between muslims and christians. if scholars of christianity talk about islam without proper knowledge of it what do u expect from ordinary christians to do to muslims? very recently, the Dutch people depicted prophet muhammad (may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) in cartoons as a terrorist without giving reasons, this is the way of all christians to criticize islam; mockry and no proofs, the reason why they do that is that they have no proofs or bases for criticizing islam. after all these biased actions to muslims, thier prophet and their holy book, what do u expect from them, ofcource they will find quick and direct stop to these annoying behaviours from their unreasonable enemies that annoy them for no reason which result in what American Government called fundamentalists. those u call fundamentalists did not start bumping themselves for nothing but they do that because the western actions and sayings against muslims are only annoying and without reasons or proofs. muslims also condemn christianity and totally go against it but through reasons and proofs that is why u will never find a single Islamic scholar burning Bibble or making fun of the great prophet jesus christ, all they do is giving reasons why Bibble is not the word of God therefore christianity is not a valid religion
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Not the kind of attributes we would expect from a man who, supposedly, preaches the teachings of Jesus Christ, but that is for his parishioners to judge, not the government.
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And occupation is the kind of attributes you expect from a person who claims to be the follower of jesus christ? Being a son of muslim, and having lived in a muslim country, obama should know what is important to muslims and that which is less important..between occupation and burning of koran, the second one is less evil of the two.
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I think if we conclude that there are a large number of Moslems in the world who want to engage what is called "Western Civilization" because our values are pervading their world (Oprah Winfrey talking about women's issues directly to women viewers in Saudi Arabia for example) and we decide that there is an inevitable direct violent confrontation between us which is unavoidable, then we should accept the inevitablity of it, prepare for it, and when it becomes inescapable be ready to engage it in a way that will be as fast and decisive as possible. They can't possibly win, the only thing that we can effect is the extent and location of the damage and how long before it is over. Within the Islamic world, people will be forced to decide which side of this confrontation they want to be on. But if burning a pile of Korans is going to set it off, sooner or later it will happen. One way or another our world and theirs is on a collision course. President Obama will not hold it back, nor will the rest of the US government. It is time to face reality, Osama Bin Laden may just get the war he said he wanted. When it comes a lot of people are going to die.
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I have to say that, whilst I might surprise some on here in failing to fulfil my perceived role as arch-constitutionalist, I can't agree with @MarcusAureliusII in his assertion that President Obama has 'failed to defend the constitution.' In this case (and, perhaps, for once) he has done absolutely nothing unconstitutional and has merely employed his own First Amendment right to express an opinion on the matter. Whether a superstitious lunatic with a fifty-strong cult is worthy of the attentions of the president of the United States is another question, but this does not imply unconstitutional behaviour. If Obama had used the Federal Government to arrest Pastor Jones it would have been an impeachable offence (look it up before reacting) but he didn't, he merely asked him to call it off. One can't defend Jones' right to burn the Koran without accepting Obama's right to tell him not to.
It is worth saying that the valuable flip side of one's own First Amendment rights are that they are shared by everyone else, thus leaving one's free actions open to criticism and ridicule. This leads - often, not always - to a self-regulating system in which the government's jackboot is replaced with the court of public opinion. It goes without saying that the prime culprit in this situation is Islam - were this a proposed action by the KKK, Muslims in the Middle East burning American flags, or somesuch, one can hardly imagine the targets reacting in such a bizarre manner - and that Pastor Jones is a fringe lunatic, it also goes without saying that Jones has every right to burn the books should he wish to; but it does not follow that the opposition of other American citizens is somehow a restriction on that right. It is not.
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Also what was going on 2011 years ago before Christ we still existed in fact evidence goes back at least 100000 years so how all of a sudden some guy comes along hears all these voices telling him to do various great and good deeds who knows.Ditto the prophet Mohammed who found enlightenment in some cave for many years and only to come out and eventually find enough people to buy into his ideology and before you know it we have Islam.
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Err, religon didnt start with christ...It started with the guy your bible mentions as Adam..He was the first prophet and Mohammad the last, in between the two, one hundred and forty thousand prophets came and went...And not one single one from the west...Can you reflect on the reason why?
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And mother of all hypocracy and bigotry is that Mr Obama didnt appeal to this pastor to listen to better angels out of respect for muslims, but he was concerned for his own troops lives..So, those who somehow have mistankenly started to believe that obama has some long lost respect for muslims and their book should get rid of their mistake, pronto..
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The pastor started out by being just plain ignorant - he probably thought his "stand" would be known in one-tenth of Florida. But when the media all swarmed around, he knowingly and willingly became a sensation seeker.
As for protecting constitutional rights to free speech - well burning books is not free speech. Knowingly threatening to burn books still after being informed by many high-ups that Muslims in other parts of the world neither recognise nor understand the American constitution is an act of selfishness, self-aggrandisement, and hurting the public image of America.
It took a US President to stop him in his tracks. No act once caught on the media can ever be described as private. If the books had been burned, it would not have been one silly pastor burning them, it would have been America.
Let's just hope it is a genuine stop. If any crass idiot starts burning copies of the Koran now, despite all the protests from tens of thousans of committed Christians like myself , then just watch the increase in number of US soldiers and military personnel being brought home in bodybags.
That is why President Obama intervened. I really do wish somebody could educate the American people so that finally they can "get" this.
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43. At 10:26pm on 10 Sep 2010, SCRAPBANKOFENGLAND wrote without tinfoil hat on, or possibly needs an additional layer of foil.
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OH yes, he sent a very clear message, adequately presaged by his own top Commander. The message was "For god's sake, let's not upset the terrorists, because we're terrified of their reaction". This is the only reason for this hysteria, for what reasonable, peace loving Muslim would take the ravings of a nut in charge of a tiny obscure church as anything but that. After all, Americans don't react violently to every 'extremist' in the Islamic faith, who burns their flag. Neither do countries like Britain react violently to every extremist who parades through their streets screaming "Death to all the Infidels"
No, this has nothing to do with pacifying reasonable Muslims, but it has everything to do with pacifying a violent enemy who has us running scared.
For those of us, who still remember the political thinking in the Britain of 30's, it was all so depressingly familiar
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We may expect many 'copycat' 9/11 burnings of the koran on Youtube... Will that cause such comotion?? I think not. Terry Jones has his wish and highlighted the need for a rethink on the haste to embrace such a volatile religion!! Before the gulf wars 'Islam' was only a part of the crusades in history class for me. Now it is in the forefront of everyday media. A large east/west and religious divide is being 'created' in our world and the politicians and media manipulate situations to their own end, whatever that may be?? Luckily I am of no religion but from my viewpoint see a large shift in supplication to Islam values; it's influence on western culture has been massive and undoubtedly much too fast.
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asdelano wrote Dear Mr.Obama, I do agree that the pastor should not burn the Korans; however, I just thought I'd remind you that "One nation under God" does not refer to multiple gods but rather the one true God of the Bible. We are not "one nation under gods!"
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense! Piffle. Poppycock. Babble. Baloney. Balderdash. This notion that the Founding Fathers based the government of the United States on the Christian religion is entirely, completely, absurdly false. For a start, the 'One Nation Under God' line that you cite was only added to the Pledge of Allegiance and the US currency in 1954 and not by the authors of the Constitution.
The suggestion that the American nation was founded upon Christianity was explicitly rejected by the Founders. The only references to religion in the Constitution are in the First Amendment - in which the federal government is precluded from making any laws regarding the establishment of religion, and in Article VI, Paragraph 3, a clause which strictly instructs the federal government that 'no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States' and requires that oaths be taken only 'to support this Constitution.' Not God, not Jesus, no mention of Christianity whatsoever.
As for the Declaration of Independence; it does say that 'all men are created equal'/'endowed by their Creator,' but these words were written by a secular deist (Jefferson) who, amongst other 'heresies,' rewrote the Bible and removed all references to Jesus' divinity, described himself as belonging to a 'sect all by myself,' coined the phrase 'wall of separation of church and state,' wrote of the beloved Book of Revelation that it was "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams," spent half his time refuting public claims that he was unfit for office because of his unbelief, described the New Testament as being full of "so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture" perpetrated by a "band of dupes and impostors," and considered the virgin birth to be an outright myth no different in essence to the nonsense believed by the Greeks and Romans about Minerva. In other words, if you are to use Jefferson's phrase as an example of a phantom Christian founding you have to accept that he wrote it from a Deistic perspective that would, if you believe in the 'one true God of the Bible' actually have sent him to hell. The other two main contributors to the document were the similarly deist and Jesus-rejecting Benjamin Franklin, and John Adams, who wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli (unanimously passed by the Senate in 1797) that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
In order to believe that the United States was founded upon the rock of Christianity one has to accept the notion without evidence, reason or a decent respect to the opinions of mankind. Oh, wait..
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# 45 LucyJ wrote: [in support of MAII - surprise, surprise]
"Personally, I believe there is a growing tide of anger by some minorities towards white people, especially Christians, for our country's past history of slavery, despite the fact that it was not modern day white people who did it. Some of these people want to punish us because they are angry at our ancestors."
And what evidence, exactly, do you have for this 'belief'? If any? Assuming, despite all evidence to the contrary, that evidence and proof are concepts you are familiar with?
“Just look at Black Panthers. Just look at Nation of Islam and Farnakah. (sic) Just look at La Raza. Just look at ACLU./Division. More division. As much hatred as KKK.”
The Panthers and the Nation of Islam are relatively small and politically insignificant.
And you believe La Raza and the American Civil Liberties Union have as much hatred as the Ku Klux Klan. Do you have any evidence for this vile, defamatory and insulting claim? Any evidence for example of extra-judicial murders on Caucasians carried out by La Raza or the ACLU? No, of course you do not. Because such concepts as evidence, proof or honesty appear not to exist in LucyWorld.
You might also care to explain why La Raza wants to punish Caucasians for slavery, when Latinos were not slaves. While you are at it, what is your evidence that there are no Caucasians in the ACLU?
“Obama is their and Hollywood's dream President. Why? He's always on their side./But Hollywood, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, La Raza, ACLU do not represent what America truly is- only the entire American people can do that./And this is how they are doing it. By tearing our country apart through division. No other country can conquer us. We know that. The only thing that could destroy America is division amongst Americans. Lincoln warned us. But ironically, there are millions of people in our country illegally who aren't Americans. We don't know who these people are. Yet our President wants to give millions of illegals citizenship.”
Demonstrate exactly how Obama is 'always on the side' of the 'Nation Of Islam'. You can't.
“Right now, we have the most politically divisive President of all time.”
Typically mendacious drivel.
“He sticks up for illegals, he sticks up for gay rights- including changing our whole military in the time of two wars to accomodidate (sic) them so we are politcally (sic) correct, he sticks up for mosques being built overlooking Ground Zero while critizing (sic) Christian Pastors for burning Korans.”
Yet more mendacious drivel. The government continues to deport illegals. He has merely pointed out that it appears neither feasible nor justifiable to deport many millions of them. If there is a Rep who has pointed out how this is feasible, and why it was not undertaken from 2000-2008, we are all ears.
He said there is a legal right to build the community centre and mosque where they are being built. He said he had given no opinion on whether it is right to do so. He criticised Rev T Jones for proposing to burn Korans. So did Gen Petraeus Does that make him 'the most politically divisive general of all time'?
Re gays in the military, as I have tried to explain repeatedly, he is keeping his campaign promise, and indeed the promise of Bill Clinton.
“By trying to use political correctness to intimidate us into being afraid to speak. He wants to use the law against us so we are powerless.”
Yet more mendacious , groundless drivel, without proof. You seem content to endlessly repeat mindless sub-Limbaugh slogans without thought or evidence. Who exactly is he 'intimidating? If he is trying to silence you, regrettably he is having little success.
“The only thing we can do is vote out the Democrats. It seems like our last hope for the future of our country...”
Yes, if not for the Reps, the USA is doomed. Go back to the glory years of 2000-2008.
Have you really no concept of logic, fact, proof or truth? Have you no shame? Have you no decency? I don't think the Islamists can defeat the USA – but simplistic simple-minded bigotry well might.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
One way or another our world and theirs is on a collision course.
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This is the understatement of the highest order, the worlds are not on a collision course..they are infact at war in atleast two countries..they were on collision course since gulf war.
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# 47 LucyJ wrote:
"Obama loves:
Muslims
Gay people
Black people
Asian people
Hispanic people
Illegal immigrants
White Christian Americans who were born and raised in this country to be loyal and true to America are on our own."
This is yet another of the sub-Fox/Limbaugh/Beck claims you churn out and rattle off with monotonous regularity.
Presumably the implication is that Obama either hates or is indifferent to White Christian Americans? Which one exactly? And exactly what evidence, if any, do you have for this defamatory smear? If any?
The clear implication is that Obama is a racist – at best he does not care about you poor little White Christian Americans, at worst he hates you.
If he did he would not only be evil, as racism is evil, but stupid too. Since of course the great majority of not only those who voted him in, but of his party, his Cabinet, his Senators, his Members of the House, his party's elected representatives throughout the US, are - White Christian Americans.
As indeed were half of his family, on his mother's side. Are you claiming he hates them too.
For a self-proclaimed Christian, you show no interest in honour or honesty. Let alone the commandment against bearing false witness.
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Obama did not elevate the Pastor. The media did - by irresponsibly giving a platform to a Pastor with 50 odd followers who represent nobody but themselves and who should have been ignored.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
In America, immigrants are allowed to burn the flag and protest against the country that they have run to for protection and a better life, while collecting benefits that even Americans aren't eligible to collect. They are allowed to worship any god that the choose, and hold political positions that they can use to help others like them. They can use the policies of the US that exist here a no other place against the society that they have voluntarily immigrated to. I would be less concerned in the tolerance of Americans or the select few who chose to protest as they choose and very concerned in the cultures that haven't changed for thousands of years and who practice no tolerance in there home lands but use the argument to divide and conquer. America can not base it's International policies on the fear of foreign radicals reaction to one mans free voice. That fear of reaction is the final death blows to a once free and brave land. A land of slavery which was ended before Latin America and South America ended it's slave trade. A Country that ended the colonization of the world under European rulers. And that has helped Muslims more then any other country in the world. America was a great country that has seen its dawn and now will fade with the setting sun.
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@animation wrote As for protecting constitutional rights to free speech - well burning books is not free speech.
Wrong. The First Amendment, Blackstone's Commentaries, Tucker, Story, Kent, Texas v. Johnson, Street v. New York, United States v. O'Brien, Spence v. Washington, U.S. v. Eichman, Brandreth v. Lance and Stromberg v. California all disagree with you. On what exactly have you based your opinion?
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Change the policies and hypocrisy of your homeland and the homeland of your parents before you can attain the insight to educate Americans. America is alwaysfacing the skeletons of our past that were buried in our closet.
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charlieatlantic;
"If Obama had used the Federal Government to arrest Pastor Jones it would have been an impeachable offence (look it up before reacting) but he didn't, he merely asked him to call it off. One can't defend Jones' right to burn the Koran without accepting Obama's right to tell him not to."
One can appreciate President Obama's dilemma and angst. He is engaged as Commander-in-Chief in two military actions in countries with predominantly Moslem populations for which Congress has not declared war. (If they had in either one of them, Obama could have used the full legal force of the government to prevent Jones from acting and if he managed to anyway it could be construed as high treason. But that is not the case.) He is also trying to conduct foreign policy with countries whose populations and even governments are hostile, militant, and easily offended (although they have no reservations themselves about giving offense to others.) Jones' actions have and would make Obama's job much more difficult and complicated. But that is his problem. If the hounds of hell of the media and most of the US population came down on Jones, that is perfectly legal so long as they don't harass him. But President Obama is no ordinary citizen, he represents the full force of the Executive Branch of the federal government and his direct order or even request to a private citizen in this regard is a clearcut form of government intimidation and censorship without doubt in violation of the Constitution. In my view, President Obama was skating on very thin ice when he asked Jones to reconsider. He chose his words carefully. As a lawyer, he undoubtedly understood the implications of the President making such a request of a private American citizen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpRyylICjyg
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Let's just hope it is a genuine stop. If any crass idiot starts burning copies of the Koran now, despite all the protests from tens of thousans of committed Christians like myself , then just watch the increase in number of US soldiers and military personnel being brought home in bodybags.
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Convince me how that would lead to more body bags? If taliban were all that forceful, the body bags would be returning to usa every day, not here and there every few months..
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Doubled over in Dublin;
The issue far transcends the conflict between the US and militant Islam or religious bigotry in the US. It now revolves around the kind of government we have and if it has become a dictatorship.
"Have you really no concept of logic, fact, proof or truth? Have you no shame? Have you no decency? I don't think the Islamists can defeat the USA"
In a very real sense they already have. It has cowed the President of the United States impelling him to violate the Constitution he swore to defend to avoid antagonizing those he fears would be our enemies and to avoid greater conflict with them. That is a sign of surrender in my view. Our government has succumbed to intimidation, it is absolutely unprecedented in the entire 234 history of the United States. Not even in the face of the then mighty British Empire in 1812 did Americans flinch before foreign enemies. Besides all else, President Obama's supplicatory action is repugnant, utterly contemptable.
In what other conflict was it unacceptable for American citizens to say or do anything that would offend an adversary or would be adversary? Against the Japanese during the Second World War? That's a laugh, they were interned in camps for fear they'd be traitors. Against Russians or Chinese during the cold war? Never. Against Germans in WWII? We had several commonly used derogatory epithets for them. We've never seen anything like this.
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Obama did not elevate the Pastor. The media did
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Media just presented the pastor to obama with a request, "Sir elevate him because we elevated the two wars" and lo and behold the commander in chief didnt let the media down..
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Doubled over in Dublin;
"The clear implication is that Obama is a racist"
Not a racist. He's a supplicant abroad, a tyrant at home. The evidence has been building all along but now it has gone beyond what should be tolerated. He is not fit for the job.
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Obama may have elevated the situation, but he has said as much as he can to placate the diminutive hordes of muslims who are too easy to agitate into a frenzy.
Those Imams/Muftis who are winding up their followers into a frenzy are no different to the Pastor Terry Jones.
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he sticks up for mosques being built overlooking Ground Zero
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When that community center is finished, I suggest then you take a trip to your holy ground called zero, and try to look for the community center..If you see it from there...then you can use the word, "overlooking the zero ground" if you fail to see it through your naked eye, then feel free to feel embraced at using words that neither describe the community center nor its whereabouts.
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As a lawyer, he undoubtedly understood the implications of the President making such a request of a private American citizen.
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But the problem is the president apealed to the pastor to listen to whoever those better angels are, as a commander in chief...
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I suppose it wouldn't do to suggest the Muslims burn a few bibles then everyone can be equally offended and we can all move on with our lives?
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80. At 01:29am on 11 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote RE
charlieatlantic
MAII, if President Obama invited you to the White House for a beer and a talk, would you be too intimidated to refuse?
Had GWB invited me I would have refused, and would have had no more regret than refusing an invitation on WH stationary inviting me to join the DNC. [I really received this letter during the Clinton years, and I really tossed it in the waste basket, although I considered keeping it as a humorous souvenir.]
If President Obama invited me to the White House I would be honored to accept, even though I didn't vote for him. I am not entirely satisfied with his presidency so far, but I don't believe the exaggerations and outright lies and propaganda used against him here and elsewhere.
Barack Obama has stood up for the constitution in present circumstances[I fault him for not repealing the unconstitutional acts of GWB, however].
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From BBC;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11265335
"The FBI had visited Mr Jones to urge him to reconsider his plans and he was telephoned by US defence secretary Robert Gates."
If that isn't strongarm intimidation by the federal government to impose self censorship I don't know what is. What next, a call from the IRS threatening to audit him?
""The idea that we would burn the sacred text of someone else's religion is contrary to what this nation stands for, contrary to what this nation was founded on," he [President Obama] said."
There is not one word of truth in that. The nation was founded on individual liberty and freedom from government tyranny, not on religious tolerence. Except for the government making no laws with respect to religion, there is not one word about religion in anything to do with the founding of the US government. There is not one iota of suggestion that Americans are not free to hate each other or anyone else for any reason they choose or for no reason at all and openly express it in public. Coming from a lawyer, such a mis-statement of fact is inexcusable.
BBC got it right when it explained why it is perfectly legal for Terry Jones or anyone else to burn Korans in America;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11254419
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JMM;
"MAII, if President Obama invited you to the White House for a beer and a talk, would you be too intimidated to refuse?"
No, I'd be only too happy to sit and chat with him and tell him where I think he went wrong screwing up America and why I didn't vote for him, wouldn't vote for him, and didn't vote for John McCain either. Then I'd tell him what I think he ought to do to fix it. Politics aside, I like President Obama. And while I don't think he's handled an admittedly very difficult job well, I'm sure he's far better at it than any of those miserable leaders they have in Europe are at their jobs.
BTW, I hope he sends me a plane ticket. I charge for travel and other expenses when I do consulting work.
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63. Acharlieatlantic:
This is why I found it odd that Obama made those comments about rights with regard to building the Islamic Center near ground zero. Was Obama making the claim that the protests were infringing on their rights?
I have to say, I am most disappointed in the ACLU. It certainly took a different view of the "Piss Christ" and National Endowment of the Arts conflict. In fact, it called that exhibit a "success" because it encouraged debate.
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Quran Burning slogan reflect incompetence.Real Competent Person had to have knowledge (technical ground and basis) to justify his decision based upon his findings .Irrespectively 1.5 Billion Muslim have become alert.Many with Money may have been looking to read detail of finance or price on his head via a Fatwa to get Pastor Terry Jones and perhaps burn him alive or any one seen publically participating and recognized.Cartoon is nothing. Printing photo of a Prophet can be viewed as ignorance as there is no Photo or statue of the Islamic prophet.Some tried to create and fake one may exist.By rule of thumb no one has ever seen Photo of the prophet.Islam is still Growing rapidly.One can rip apart insult desecrate in jealousy.The armada of soldiers or bank robbers with guns or banditos can ransack rape kill and loot.Terry Jones is an insult.A highly jealous disoriented incompetent like Banditos armed robbers or crusaders or paper tigers.Muslims In general do not like to engage in vulgar insults or arguments.Burning a Quran cherished by more than a Billion and half Muslim is direct provocation.I bet Pastor Terry Jones has gone crazy risking his life to raise 20 or less people who came to Church.If he increase his church population by hundreds he is endangering their lives.amid anarchy.No Leaders from Crusaders view point have elevated Terry Jones nor 99.9999% Muslims even heard about this news.Muslims in general are neither in News nor TV Radio Internet or can afford to waste time in the likes of Pastor Terry Jones.I would like to question him about his sweeping statement sitting in the comfort of USA without ID or disclosure of whereabout (safe and paper tiger).Pastor Terry Jones could be picked up by death grip of Almighty God.It is terry Jones of 20 followers vs God of Quran.
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I say this: President Obama has made his own life exceptionally difficult. The ideas he espouses are contrary to the general feeling of his electorate. So he finds himself backtracking on many things he is saying in order to please the people who voted him into power. If some radical fringe groups want to do things like that - let them be. You don't see Islamic governments stopping their Imams from burning flags of Israel and the USA - do you? Because that type of thing is tolerated and espoused. Yet the west is held to a different standard. I say that whatever ANY RADICAL groups do is their business - their views are NOT shared by the bulk of American society. We have to get over ourselves and realize that as Christians, Jews or Muslims there are people who will want to insult and offend us - so what - this is not a popuarilty contest - it's life. You could always opt out of all this and enjoy a game of bingo at bingo-room if you like!
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The American army burned a pile of bibles that were the property of the US army personnel in Afghanistan to discourage the proselytizing by US soldiers.
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Moslems are overly sensitive and intolerant. A koran is a printed book just like any other book. Just because it has what they think may be the word of god does not somehow give it magical powers or make it special. Bibles have been burnt before but christians don't start issuing fatwas and death threats. It seems that in a world where tolerance and acceptance is preached, it is everyone else that has been tolerating islam and islam has been behaving as a tyrant to everyone else.
Obama should support burning the koran as standing up for free speech. Moslems should learn to be more tolerant.
All this is nothing new. We have all seen how intolerant islam is.
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Sure President Obama elevated the pastors' opinions and intentions to global dimensions (I think appropriately), by addressing an issue that has been extended beyond "normal" standards of sensationalism. At some point, a prominent voice (the president of the United States of America) will weigh in with an opinion about where the line should be drawn with regards to intolerance and blatant prejudice. I have an idea as to why an army general AND the president of the USA must address such circumstances: calendars have been flipped to September for at least a week, and an astonishing number of people on this planet still associate the beginning of this month feeling like victims of aggression and hate. They will not turn the other cheek, as former President Bush championed with war abroad and legislation that essentially burned part of the US constitution. This pastor apparently is praying on the matter. Let's hope that whatever voice he conjures up in his head says, "C'mon Terry, that's the dumbest idea you've come up since you started listening to me."
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Am I the only one that sees this whole episode as just one more reason to be profoundly anti-religious?
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Quran Burning slogan reflect incomplete competence via decision to seek publicity to save his income church -do or die.Real Competent Person had to have knowledge (technical ground and basis) to justify his decision based upon his findings .Irrespectively 1.5 Billion Muslim have become alert.Many with Money may have been looking to read detail of finance or price on his head via a Fatwa to get Pastor Terry Jones and perhaps burn him alive or any one seen publically participating and recognized.Cartoon is nothing. Printing photo of a Prophet can be viewed as ignorance as there is no Photo or statue of the Islamic prophet.Some tried to create and fake one may exist.By rule of thumb no one has ever seen Photo of the prophet.Islam is still Growing rapidly.One can rip apart insult desecrate in jealousy.The armada of soldiers or bank robbers with guns or banditos can ransack rape kill and loot.Terry Jones is an insult.A highly jealous disoriented incompetent like Banditos armed robbers or crusaders or paper tigers.Muslims In general do not like to engage in vulgar insults or arguments.Burning a Quran cherished by more than a Billion and half Muslim is direct provocation.I bet Pastor Terry Jones sitting alone in the church is risking his life to raise 20 or less people to higher without thinking.If he increase his church population by hundreds he is endangering their lives if he inflame sentiments of 1.5 billion Muslim.Pastor Terry Jones could be picked up by death grip of Almighty God.It is terry Jones of 20 followers vs God of Quran.Muslim Believe Quran to be words of God.Imagine 1 500,000,000 (1.5 Billion) followers in 1400 yrs compared to say Judaism of 15million in 4,000 yrs.Pastor Terry Jones is attempting to block this?Is he normal if he could not improve his church with hefty pay for himself.
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We have Islamic extremists on one side who threaten to kill a cartoonist for depicting God in a disrespectful manner and Christian extremists on the other side who want to burn the Quoran. It's not surprising that most ordinary people, both Christian and Muslim, are increasingly frustrated with this course of events.
President Obama has a duty to speak out against extremism. The unwarranted attention that Pastor Jones has received forced the President's hand.
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By the way, did Obama really say he relies heavily on his Christian faith to do his job?
I thought of the posters here who abhor that kind of illogical, unreasoned thinking and hate when it's mixed with politics. How about when it influences the POTUS?
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90. MarcusAureliusII:
"The FBI had visited Mr Jones to urge him to reconsider his plans and he was telephoned by US defence secretary Robert Gates."
If that isn't strongarm intimidation by the federal government to impose self censorship I don't know what is. What next, a call from the IRS threatening to audit him?
*************
Wonder if anyone in the Administration gave any thought to Jones' rights during that FBI visit.
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The most important factor multiplying this incident’s importance is the unique contribution (to date) of the 21st century – instantaneous world wide communication at level of the individual. Everyone in the world, virtually, has knowledge of everything that happens that someone, somewhere, considers noteworthy. Everyone hears what someone thinks about it, and is encouraged to ‘have an opinion’, themselves. Everyone gets immediate gratification and reinforcement from expressing their opinion publicly, which means before the whole world. One can gain a vast audience simply by typing on a keyboard, or by appearing on one or more of the world-wide social media.
Systems are in place to scour the internet for titillating, controversial, or even mildly curious stories, and broadcast them to as wide an audience as possible. The line between responsible journalism and sensationalism is no longer discernable – the lines between fact, rumor, and fiction have been inadvertently and often deliberately erased. Without recognized standards to judge by, any bit of material could have any, or no, significance. But it can gain vast significance simply as a result of the meaning given to it by the reaction of millions who interpret it in their personal contexts.
Transparency and openness are essential tools in the life of democracies, and really cannot be done without in any successful project. But unless we all develop tools to sort and balance this new chaos of information we will surely drown in our ‘confusion of faces’. Seeking excitement all the time leads to distraction.
My opinion, for what it is worth.
KScurmudgeon
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So in this "Global" World so wrapped around the latest media report, I guess we can expect outrage from our Muslim friends when an American Flag is burned, or U.S. Leader in effigy. The Holy Bible says "treat others as you want to be treated", I don't know what the Koran implies in the treatment of others, but from what I have seen in the media, this pastor in Florida is a small offender of offending those who do not share your belief. He has not threatened a person, or actually killed innocent people in his statement of wanting to burn a book. There all copies, not the original manuscript! Lighten up and remember what country he is in, and the freedoms he is guaranteed!
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AndreaNY#102;
The visit by the FBI to someone who was exercising his right to free speech is only a hair's breath removed from a visit by the Gestapo or the KGB. It has the same chilling effect. This is the real reason President Nixon was impeached. It wasn't for the coverup, it was for trying to extort money for his re-election campaign from some of the wealthiest Americans and threatening to have the IRS audit them if they didn't comply. Instead of defending the Constitution, President Obama is violating it. What outside intimidation or demands from abroad won't he give in to if this is all it takes for foreigners to manipulate him?
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Obama did not elevate the pastor. The pastor was already on everyone's radar thatnks to the news media. That pastor is another boy in the balloon, and the news medai love it. It's something ridiculous to talk about again.
America shoud be a little careful. It used to export good technology. That ended and it started exporting good ideas. That has definitely ended, nowadays all it exports is silly stories.
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Should this pastor be suprised? Matthew 7:14
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President Obama is trying to catch architect of 9/11.While CNN interview Imam Rauf GZM.Donald Trump offered to buy off Investors matching dollars.GZM area is approx 10km driving distance either way to two airports.Flying time to slam at WTC could have been seconds.The Beneficieries of the conflict are Those who have become recent Rich.Burning Quran Slogan brought outrage against USA (not Pastor Terry Jones).Blame is befalling upon President Obama.Those who are trying to recreate hatred against colored black third world.Behind Pastor is obviously using divide and Rule attempt.Those who want One time President Obama Out those who want to grill and humiliate 1.5 Billion Muslim.Pastor Terry Jones is their front man i.e.investors new colony creators anti USA group.Imagine outrage against USA USA property using President Obama. .800 Billion Stimulus Package with disoriented USA economy is incentive or new method of Recent rich - 9/11 architect airplane slammer.This is what resulted in Trillion Dollar Bonanza market which came out of 9/11.In this Hammam every one is naked including Pastor Terry Jones trying to arose sentiments against USA for those investors abroad (including currency converter).
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A valuable opportunity could emerge from this koran burning threat. The American people could take from this that just a few (say 50 or maybe 11) people can take actions that are horrific but at the end of the day, those acts should only be attributed to the 11 or the 50.
All followers of Islam did not pilot those planes into the skyscrapers in NYC. If this cannot be accepted, all Christians have to bear the consequences for the 50-ish Floridians burning the korans.
My bet is that this opportunity will not be taken.
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Obama did not elevate the "pastor" (funny, that's how the devil is called in Jose Saramago's "The Godspel according to Jesus Christ"); you, astute long eared quadrupeds in the media did (I hope this definition does not violate your stringent guidelines and high standards). You collectively (pardon the generalization) don't seem to have a problem according all kinds of nefarious government entities the right to count on your self censorship to conceal warmongering, politicking and corruption from public scrutiny, but when a publicity seeking hate monger with obvious ends steps to the podium, you can't help but giving him a huge free ride in stead of confining him to the obscurity that such a character so deserves. Congratulations on your commitment to serving the public; with a poisonous plate, I may add, that the world has been ruing for the past decade. Keep up the good work!
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I agree with HappyILeft. This should be taken as an opportunity for reconciliation, for New Yorkers, indeed all Americans to say 'We know the Islamic faith is *not* itself evil, it is that small minority abusing the word of the Koran which is evil'. Remember this:
A book cannot be evil, only people can.
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"He was asked why nine years after 9/11, America seems more uneasy about Islam than ever before"
Although most people know that those who fear the most are those who fear the wrath of their victims.
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Obama has it wrong. The pastor's act is not contrary to what America stands for, rather it is a *demonstration* of it. The fact that the pastor *can* burn a Qur'an, a Bible, a cross, or even an American flag without legal retribution is testimony to what this country stands for: ideals and values which *transcend* what may be unpopular or offensive to our opinions.
Perhaps the pastor's choice to fan the flames of animosity is not in our "national interests", but we must not cower in the face of it, nor from the threats of those who would seek to cause us to change our way of life, and deny ourselves our rights.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Seriously, how ridiculous is this. It is just a book!!!! If a Muslim was to burn a bible it wouldn't be half as big a deal. Muslims really need to grow up and get on with it.
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MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Maybe he has by making him one of the few people left in America who is willing to exercise his constitutional right to speak out in public no matter who it offends, no matter what retribution he might face from angry Moslems."
So is the constitutional right of this loon more precious than the lives of US the soldiers he will surely endanger if he goes ahead with this stunt? I greatly admire the USA's constitution, the undeniable right to free speech is surprisingly rarely abused, how sad that this pastor has discovered that he can use his freedonm to deeply offend millions and to harm his nation to such a degree that the President has been compelled to speak out.
The true face of evil is at that small church in Gainsville, he is no better or worse than the deluded suicide bombers who beleive that martyrdom will bring them great rewards in the afterlife. Just like those bombers he has taken a faith that preaches love and has turned it to hate.
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What a mess! Book-burning is against western liberal values post World War 2, which is why when Muslims burn books like the Satanic Verses they are viewed as the moral equivalent of the Nazi Party. Goes back to when Christians used to burn books by scientists like Galileo until Christianity lost power in Europe and had to start obeying secular laws.
There is no possibility of any immediate reconciliation between Islam and non-muslims, nor is there any immediate possibility of a reconciliation of Christians with non-christians. The bottom line is that monotheists have always been intolerant extremists who end up killing other people in the name of their god. After all, if there is only one god, unless everyone accepts him (and guess what, it tends to be a "him"), those who do not accept him must be evil and it must therefore be right to kill them.
Where we went wrong in the West is in protecting religion at all. We need to repeal any remaining blasphemy laws and remove protection against discrimination on religious grounds and ban the use of public premises for private worship by ANY faith. Religion should be a purely private affair with no public space available to it whatsoever.
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The burning should have gone ahead. With each back down religion becomes more powerful. Obama could have said something like, the pastor has the constitutional right to do this, I don't personally agree with his action ... etc etc. Now, however, america looks weak and afraid. You may think that it has the moral high ground, but so what, the moral high ground means nothing in a world that has always been duplicitous. Faith should be an individual concern, but it always has moved towards the group force. As such it is my enemy. The book should have been burned.
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I have seen Davinci code, Angels and Demons, zeitgeist all condemning christianity. How many flags were burnt? How many protests were staged? How many wars were declared? Of course Jesus told his diciples not to fight for their faith with sword or killing. Infact the bible records that Jesus rebuked Peter when he cut off an ear of a soldier telling him this popular clause " He who kills by the sword dies by the sword."
This Koran burning made me read some parts of koran for the first time and I am suprised to see hate statements in Surah 9. instructing muslims to kill Jews and christians. I wonder where the term "moderate muslims" come from. If this ideology of kill infidels and all who donot believe your God continues then the world is yet to see hell.
I think Obama may only be remembered for being a coward. Those who destroyed the world trade center quoted verses from Surah 9 and claimed to be doing it in the name of Islam. How then would they come and say the next thing is to build a mosque because "we are moderates and peaceful" and both use the same book, read thesame Surah, are given thesame instruction to subdue all to accept their faith. Please take the mosque to other location. It's like saying we destroyed them and put our mark there, a sign of victory.
I think everyone should practise his religion in his privacy and the media should not incite the public by giving attention to the likes of Pastor Jones. I hope religion would not plunge the world to another war
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In Iran, Syria and Lebanon, for example, the media such as the BBC frequently frequently report the public burning of the United States flag, but lif egoes on without as I understand threats from USA to send millions more flags or let off more IEDs in those countries. Could we conclude something about the irrational nature of a culture here?
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I believe Terry Jones is wrong and his actions are grossly irresponsible as a citizen of the world. He has the right under the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to express his views but his choice of expression in this case is grossly inappropriate and disrespectful to others in modern society.
I happen to be an American and believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. It would be a really good thing if more Americans would read them actually. But you know the reality is that not every country shares the same Constitution and Bill of Rights. We would be wise to understand that not everyone shares our values, nor is it likely they ever will, and maybe we all need to be more tolerant of each others right to have our own belief systems. Living in a society where "free speech" is cherished as a right, and even the "nut cases" are tolerated is great, but does that mean we should always be in "ready-fire-aim" mode? I'm not the most "PC" of people, I'm not afraid of expressing my views but aren't we supposed to grow wiser with age and consider our real message, motive, and the potential ramifications of our words and deeds before we act? Shouldn't we be mature enough to admit our mistakes and allow each other space and "face" to learn from them.
As a planet of many peoples, ever more intimately connected by the internet, where "news" is instantaneous and the minuscule and irrelevant can become "big stories" overnight, this issue of "Free Speech" is an increasingly tricky one. Combined with an increasing level of religious radicalism, the US being far from innocent in this regard, journalistic sensationalism, and ignorance in general we have spiraling emotion around the globe. Does a world of TV cameras, blogs, tweets, social media, and personal web pages give us all the right to say whatever comes into our heads no matter how ridiculous? Because we can should we?
I'm not a religious scholar but it seems odd to me that with Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all being Abrahamic faiths that share a good deal of common ground and history that we have such religious strife. Humans have been fighting and dying over their religious beliefs for millennia but in a world where an obscure preacher from Florida can overnight spark protests and bloodshed on the other side of the planet and force heads of state to weigh in and try to defuse the situation I think we all really need a healthy injection of tolerance and respect.
Flag burning, desecration of religious texts, and flaming effigies make for great visual images, maybe they create "awareness", but of what? What's your point? Do you really have a "cause" or is this really about power, control, and narcissism? Pastor Jones, maybe you need to read your Bible a little more carefully ...
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#70 charlieatlantic
Thank you for this and other illuminating posts.
I should add that the Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church of England so Britain is not a religious state either.
#various VaughanR24
...In this Hammam every one is naked including Pastor Terry Jones trying to arose sentiments against USA for those investors abroad (including currency converter).
Um, well, I can see the sense in that straight away.
It's obvious that Terry Jones.and there is some resonance from Monty Python.is an agent of Osama Bin Laden.He is trying to drive up Quran prices by limiting supply.thus directing trillions of dollars (and change) of funds to Al Qaeda.which has plans to use the money to build a cathedral in Mecca.thus provoking an outcry from the honest burgers of Riyadh against the.fanatical crusaders who, in their turn, are behind the building of the mosque in New York.there is a known connection between Jones.and the builders of the mosque who have murdered millions of christians.he was not asking them to stop.he was giving them their orders to put a particularly big crescent on top.Like a muslim cake with christian filling.you know this rendom periodic period stuff is quite liberating.everyone should try it.
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MisterFubar wrote America shoud be a little careful. It used to export good technology. That ended and it started exporting good ideas. That has definitely ended, nowadays all it exports is silly stories.
I'm sure this sounds clever and witty and profound in your head, but have you actually read what you just wrote? America doesn't export 'good technology' or 'good ideas'? On which planet do you live? Look at the majority of scientific research, product design, Silicon Valley, the infrastructure behind the internet, even high quality television (now). Where is this coming from - Peru?
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Sep 2010, asdelano wrote:
Dear Mr.Obama,
I do agree that the pastor should not burn the Korans; however, I just thought I'd remind you that "One nation under God" does not refer to multiple gods but rather the one true God of the Bible. We are not "one nation under gods!"
But what if the God (Allah) under Islam is the same as the God of the Bible? We don't know. So it is right that Obama should speak of one nation under God. Then there is the God of followers of the Jewish faith. The president has tried to unite the nation, to ensure that all citizens can feel equal.
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To all Americans (and to New Yorkers in particular),
Please be aware that the thoughts of all sensible, right-thinking people everywhere are with you on this day as we remember the barbarous attack on all Western civilisation that took place a short nine years ago.
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MaxSceptic wrote To all Americans (and to New Yorkers in particular), please be aware that the thoughts of all sensible, right-thinking people everywhere are with you on this day as we remember the barbarous attack on all Western civilisation that took place a short nine years ago.
Seconded, couldn't have put it better myself.
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The Islamic radicals started the war. Obama just rules by crisis, how else can you hope to gain absolute power. This is the new political elites rules, meanwhile the Constitution is ignored by judges, as the people of this country seek to reinstate and practice law truely based on this. Not some Judge for life, political implant, that ignores States rights, originally the States had the right to withdraw from the US. Now under dictorial federalism it gets worse. Some say the US kills Muslims, and drone on. Perhaps the US, UK and other allies make mistakes that do harm innocents, but these are done by mistake, an for the most part are tragedies. But the murderous act done by Muslim terrorists are planned with evil intent in their hearts and minds to kill non-combatent (civilians) men,women, and children deliberately. This is the difference. I mean an errant shelling or mistake on the ground is a lot different. Then cutting off peoples heads and limbs, or stoning, floggins, are miles apart with blatent facts of this are shown on a daily basis. Obama is part of the problem.
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If the police stop someone from committing a crime, are they "elevating" that person, especially if the matter makes it into the press?
If a person is covered by the press because of foolishness or childish bad behavior, are they "elevating" her?
I don't think "elevating" is precisely the correct word as, depending on circumstances, they could be said to be holding him/her up to public ridicule, mocking, chastizing, or, in most cases, making a mountain out of a mole hill so as to increase circulation [thereby increasing profit].
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At 00:24am on 11 Sep 2010, JMM
Please explain your poor joke. Didn't make any sense.
Also do you have any counter points to what I said or do you lack the intelligence ?
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If the media had not reported what this bigot was planning to do, no one else would have been any the wiser. I am with those who claim the media is controlled and they are beaming the version of reality into our living rooms that they want played out.
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Ref 129, Tomzen8
I would not characterize as being controlled, what I believe is true is that the media needs sensationalism to survive and be profitable. The rtings of media outlets that break news like this and manage to sustain a high level of interest get not only more viewers but advertisers as well, which means increases in revenues and profits.
I think it is up to us to discern the difference between sensationalism and objective reporting, which is something that is not always easy to do.
It could be argued that Pastor Jones manipulated the media to get the attention and notoriety he was seeking to achieve his personal goals, and the media did the same to us. The fact that an obscure Pastor and his congregation of 50 people managed to get world attention, inflame passions among 1.3 billion Muslims, and get the attention of some of the most powerful political and religious leaders in the world is a sign of the times and evidence of the lack of objectivity and maturity thst influence events in the modern world.
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I just deleted the Koran from my I-Pad... get with the times people.
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Terry Jones' intended actions may be unwise, but he clearly has a much better understanding of Islam than Barack Obama. Obama said quite reasonably that the war against terrorism is not against Islam, but Jones has qualified this by pointing out that the terrorism we are fighting has its roots in Islam. This is a paradox produced by a Western failure to understand that whilst Christianity and the State are quite separate as a result of events in Europe several hundred years ago, Islam has experienced no such reformation, and is still inextricably linked to the State, producing an autocratic society where religious worship and political rule are the same. This misunderstanding is mutual, thereby producing conflict, mistrust and even hatred. The impending result of this struggle between irreconcilable mindsets may well be too horrendous to contemplate, and the only realistic solution would be for Westerners to stay in Western countries, and for Muslims to stay in Muslim countries. There would still be abiding disputes over territory, such as Kosovo/Kosova, but there will always be minor wars; the important thing is not to allow them to escalate. Terry Jones should not burn the Korans, and Muslims should not take to the streets to burn effigies and national flags.
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@Diverticulosis: ''I usually ignore your postings because they really have no value other than as a provocateur, and a weak one at that.
Somehow, I do feel a bit sleazy responding to one of your posts, feeling a bit taken by your provocation. I think I will feel better after a shower.''
Couldn't have put it any better.
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As an American who is appalled by the lack of respect for peaceful Muslims and Islam in general being expressed by some in the U.S. media, particularly by the right-wing FOX Network, I hope the rest of the world will realize that these American extremists and hate mongers do NOT speak for all Americans and certainly not for the majority of us.
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Jules Woodell #115;
"So is the constitutional right of this loon more precious than the lives of US the soldiers he will surely endanger if he goes ahead with this stunt?"
Actually the answer to that is an unqualified yes. Enough Americans agreed to give up their lives winning it and defending it. I presume you are European and could not possibly understand this. But understand that the only reason we have these rights and all of our other rights is because to many Americans gaining and defending those rights was worth the risk of losing ones life.
This fact has been said by American Patriots many different times and many different ways. Nathan Hale said before being executed by the British "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country." Patrick Henry (technically a Brit but none the less an American Patriot whom the British government wanted to arrest and hang said "Give me Liberty or give me death." And during the cold war, many of us agreed with "better dead than red." It is far better to fight and maybe die defending freedom than live out your life in misery and without purpose as a slave. That is the reason and the only reason we have and keep these freedoms. And that is why we have volunteers who go out to fight and maybe die, they understand this too. They do it because they want to, not because they are forced to like in most other countries including the UK. That's what makes them heroes. President Obama took a sworn sacred oath to use any and all means available to him to defend those freedoms for Americans no matter what the consequences to anyone. Instead he seems ready to surrender them because he does not have the stomach for a fight to defend them. He is a coward and a traitor.
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I'm not a Christian, because I look at what the founder said, and don't think it's practical.
What I don't understand is those who profess to be Christians but totally ignore any of Christ's teachings which are inconvenient to them. This doublethink goes back to the emperor Constantine, who, having made Christianity the state religion, thought that murdering his wife and son was nonetheless perfectly acceptable. Over the centuries Christians have regularly mass-murdered in the name of their religion. Judaism and Islam are no better, but then all three religions share common roots. Hence the Islamic concept of "People of the Book".
Nowadays the US religious right go through extreme philosophical contortions to reconcile their lifestyle and aspirations with the Christianity they claim to embrace.
Sadly, although human beings have the capacity for rational thought, in practice they very rarely use it. Collectively, we are a species suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Perhaps we don't deserve to survive. In the meantime, lest we forget....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/chile.shtml
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People can say as much they can say the factore of the matter the pastor was right ,is just that no one had guts to confront the muslims straight ,its time that all muslims must understand that the pastor may not burn the kuran for now but me myself I will burn it and post the picture on the internet ,
what wrong with freedom of speech ,the muslims think freedom of specch is the only limited to them only , when they insults other religions its OK but if someone simply make some drowings of THE Prophet MOHAMMAD that sombody must die .Sorry with the latest Technology you have lost the so called HOLLY WAR
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The war Islam has waged against the US at least in part goes back to at least 1948 when the US supported and championed the creaton of Israel. The USSR found it convenient to fan the flames of this war for its own purposes. The assassination of Bobby Kennedy by Sirhan Sirhan may have been part of that war. There were of course al Qaeda's attacks on the American embassies in Africa and the attack on the Cole in the 90s. Americans have not forgotten that when the US was attacked nine years ago, many Moslems cheered and celebrated. It is not clear that all of Islam is America's enemy but there are enough Moslems around the world with hard feelings, even hatred for us to make thoughtful Americans question what kind of relationship America really has with the Islamic world, what kind it can have without surrendering to some of its unacceptable demands such as abandoning our support for Israel, and for some Moslems somehow insulating them from our culture, even adopting Sharia law and Islam ourselves. The actions of some Moslems who lived peacefully among us inlcuding the 9-11 perpetrators have inevitably given rise to concern and even suspicion about Moslems who have been exposed to the most extreme elements of Islam especially overseas, on the internet, or by contact with foreigners who visit the US to find recruits for their cause. President Obama's notion that America is not vulnerable to "an enemy within" that may be hidden among us living secretively withn the American Moslem community waiting until the time is right to strike flies in the face of what reality is and what our own homeland security department is acting on to protect our society. Therefore the manifestataion of Moslems asserting their religion openly and proseletizing it in America has many of us alarmed. Unlike the way British and other Europeans up to now have passively accepted this in their societies, we are not going to sit back and allow it to emerge as an alternative culture which in many cases holds values incompatable with our Constitution, our democracy, our way of life here. This is not racism or religious hatred, it is simply an observation that the overwhelming majority of Americans will not tolerate the Islamization of our society. The proposed mosque in New York City near where the World Trade Center once stood is evidence of that effort at Islamization, the Koran burning evidence of a protest against it. That is the only connection between them.
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My greatest concern is that the president and the military have shown this country can be intimidated by those radical muslims who want too see us all dead. Like Neville Chamberlain, he blinked.
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The pastor who wants to burn books is a hillbilly. However, although I find burning books distasteful and anti-intellectual, he is absolutely within his rights of free speech to burn the quran. The fact that Obama has interceded on behalf of Islam on the global stage and elevated the minor affair to global scrutiny either shows him to be a quite naive or, more likely, an apologist for and appeaser of Islam's genocidal and expansionist political agenda. I do not recall Obama intervening with his own pastor or with Farrakhan when thew spew anti-Jewish filth or when offical publications in the Muslim world spread anti-Jewish cartoons and information to its uneducated and oppressed masses on a daily basis. I don't recall Obama defending the American flag when Muslims burn them by the thousands for decades. I don't recall Obama interveing on behalf of Christians, Hindus, Buddhsists, Jews and animists when Islam encroaches on their freedoms, on their countries and results in the deaths of millions of innocents over the last 60 years alone. All Muslims have to do is threaten violence and the Western world gives up its sacred freedoms: even the so-called "moderate" imam embroiled in the Ground Zero mosque controversy is explicitly threatening the US with violence if it is forced to move location. Maybe civility is not respected by Obama.
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@130 I will let those in the media and those who control explain it to you:
``Our job is to give people not what they want, but what we decide they ought to have.''
Richard Salant, former President of CBS News
"The news and Truth are not the same thing."
Walter Lippmann, American journalist, 1889-1974
"News is what someone, somewhere is trying to suppress,
the rest is just advertising"
Lord Northcliffe, British Press Baron
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I do not understand the logic of the issue. When some derranged person decides to burn the Koran, all of us are considered responsible. Beginning with atheists, Christians and ending with troops in Iraq. Muslim anger is not directed against the pastor but against the entire west. When an islamic terrorist destroys a building somewhere, we are told that muslims as a whole are not responsible but only individual derranged muslim terrorists. The fact is that the east has a collective mentality and the west an individualistic one. This is part of the problem. Experience is everything. Why not ask about the experience of non-muslims living in an Islamic country. It seems that one one is interested about their rights.
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Perhaps President Obama had forgoten that he is not the Secretary General of the United Nations, not president of the entire world but only President of the United States of America. The bribe the Nobel Prize Committee paid him almost immediately after he took office seemed to be an attempt to persuade him otherwise. I get the distinct feeling that if he knows the truth, he is not telling it to us, at least not all of it. Perhaps he finds it too unpalatable. If he doesn't face up to it and act on it then the eventual consequences that will ensue will be far more unpalatable and there will be no escaping them. Neville Chamberlain found that out the hard way in the late 1930s. If President Obama does not have the stomach for the unpleasant choices a President of the United States sometimes has to make, then he should resign and turn the job over to someone else who does. (His predecessor was not much better.) Is he going to defend America from militant Islam or isn't he? So far based on his half hearted actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, and elsewhere the answer appears to be no. When there is a determined enemy who has the intent andj demonstrated capacity to destroy you, that is no time for restraint. There are certainly risks in taking decisive action but the risks of indecision and paralysis are far worse.
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#135
"It is far better to fight and maybe die defending freedom than live out your life in misery and without purpose as a slave. That is the reason and the only reason we have and keep these freedoms. And that is why we have volunteers who go out to fight and maybe die, they understand this too. They do it because they want to, not because they are forced to like in most other countries including the UK."
So, when are YOU going to "fight and maybe die". When are YOU burning your Koran with the media watching? Perhaps when you can tear yourself away from the keyboard? In what way are UK soldiers "forced" to fight, the British military is 100% volunteer? What a disgusting slur, one amongst many.
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If the man wants to burn the Koran then fine.
If he wants to burn the Bible then fine.
If he wants to burn the Torah then fine.
Who gives a sheet. It means nothing. If your faith is dependent upon what other people do or say then something is amiss. One guy in Florida with a church membership of 50 which means about 15-20 people attend is going to decide on the fate of a Mosque in New York. Give me a break.
I'm thinking about burning the IRS tax code. Surely it is the instrument of the devil. As the centerpiece of the true religion of the US will I be impugned??......hmmmm probably so. I take it all back.
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Darnit Mr. Aurelius, It was not a question of P Jones' CONSTITUTIONAL right to have a demonstration where Qu'ran's were burnt, but a question of his LOGIC. At some point kookiness must be stopped with reason, I was very impressed with the brave young Florida Imam who attempted to reason with P Jones, he maintained an even temper after the most ridiculous P Jones behavior, very patient.
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Ref 143, Bill
Good point. The only explanation I can think of is that destroying a building or burning a flag may be interpreted as a sign of protest or retaliation against the policies and actions of a country. Burning or desecrating a religious book is a deliberate attempt to offend an entire religious denomination or culture.
Blaming all the members of a religion for the actions of a terrorist group is wrong and does not make sense. Can you imagine the people of Oklahoma blaming all protestants and Midwesterners for the actions of Timothy McVeigh?
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Obama did not 'elivate' or glorify this extremist Christian. He demonstrated the responsibility that a leader of a country should show to reign in their country's more extreme elements. Particularly ones about to commit an act that would inflame dozens of countries worldwide, and in a way that coerced rather than breaking law or dictacting security forces.
Those who criticize or even blame(!) Obama for taking this action clearly have no understanding of the real damage this act could have caused.
If all world leaders could act like Obama, this world would be a safer place.
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When the threat of one man burning one book can inflame tensions round the world, is the tinderbox situation of Huntingdon's "Clash of Cultures" not laid bare?
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Mabel set the table;
"It was not a question of P Jones' CONSTITUTIONAL right to have a demonstration where Qu'ran's were burnt, but a question of his LOGIC. At some point kookiness must be stopped with reason
First of all it's Terry Jones with a "T" not a P. And exactly who is going to decide what is the logic that should restrict him from exercising his constitutional right to be kookie, some tin pot tyrant like you? That is why the framers of the constitution put it beyond reach and why the US Supreme Court is very wary of "the slippery slope" of censorship which leads from one small step down a path that takes it over a cliff. He would burn some books, you would destroy the constitution. And you don't hear me telling you to shut up.
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@139 MAII "The war Islam has waged against the US at least in part goes back to at least 1948 when the US supported and championed the creaton of Israel"
I don't agree with much that you say, but you are right there. The origins are earler and can be blamed on British policy like the Balfour Declaration. All of this is the fault of Western Christian politicians believing potted versions of the Old Testament, and being ignorant of the complex history of the Middle East.
Unfortunately, the creation of Israel always depended upon (at least) partial ethnic cleansing (and the terrorism etc necessary to achieve this). Even without the Soviet Union's opportunism, there would have been enormous resistance to the creation of Israel - as there was to the Crusader States. The resentment of the indigenous population was already growing between the wars.
What has happened since 1948 has radicalised Islam, or at least significant parts of it. We are faced with an enemy created by our own ignorance and lack of foresight. (And let's not forget where the mujahadeen in Afghanistan, and possibly bin Laden himself, got their military training and support.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
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Make no mistake about this; if there were no such interventions from the top - President Obama, the Secretary for defense, Secretary of State and the general outcry from the Americans, Terry Jones would have carried out his despicable act just to gain attention. Such an act would have put the lives of the Americans and Christians as a whole in danger all over the world. Jones would not even care, provided he gets his whore's attention.
The internet postings of Sarah Palin and Mr. Boehner of the Republican Party suggesting a "quid pro quo" swap for the Islamic Center in New York to move elsewhere in order to spare the Koran is not a mere coincidence. This was exactly Terry Jones final proposition. Terry Jones must have had the blessing of the Tea Party and the Republican Party - and was probably doing their bidding. Pastor Terry Jones is probably an executive member of the Tea Party in mufti.
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@ Abdul, it's important to realize that the West is not Christian. It may be in some kind of 'name only', but this is not true Christianity. Sadly, in places across the Islamic world, we've had Bibles burned, churches burned, Christians killed in the name of Islam, incited by clerics. If you want specific examples, I could give you many. I completely accept that not all Muslims are like this, that the majority are extremely friendly and show hospitality way above us Westerners (my friend works in the Middle East and loves it). But this kind of thing is happening, sadly, and in both Hindu / Communist countries / areas in the name of Hinduism and communism. The Christian response in nearly every instance has been complete forgiveness in the face of terrible circumstances. That's true Christianity. The 'Western Christianity' often spoken of is nothing of the sort. I do agree with the comment that Christianity can survive burning of Bibles. In every place there has and is persecution (eg Iran, China, Indonesia), the church is growing at a phenomenal rate.
Also a comment about the founding fathers and religion, an interesting site to add into this is Wall Builders who own original documents from the founding fathers about Christianity - http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755
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He talked of his own Christian faith and said he understood religion could provoke passion, but that America was one nation under God, whatever the name of that God.
/////////////
The fact is Mr Obama, for all of your espousing your Christianity, your many other words on the subject clearly demonstrate on your lack of understanding of what true Christianity is all about and therefore your own foundational faith and doctrine. As a Christian there is only one God and he is found only through Jesus Christ and THAT is His name and upon who the USA was founded. But then given your background I still subscribe to the belief that you are still a Muslim and it is that fact that drives all of your policies.
I look forward to the day when you recognise that Islam is a religion for mostly primitive thinking and cultures and when you condemn the persecution of Christians, their murder and the burning of churches, never mind Bibles, in Muslim countries.
But then we will not see that will we? You are too busy 'reaching out' and appeasing the very people that want to bring America down. Aided and abetted by the liberal media, with the BBC in the vanguard, ever ready to highlight something negative about Chistianity and Christians.
One small town,small time, small church pastor given a prominence that is laughable, for burning a book? And the reaction from the poor uneducated masses is frightening. Tell me how can one manage to coexist in any sort of democracy with an ideology that displays such frightening ignorance and flies aircraft into buildings?
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re: 144 Marcus: When there is a determined enemy who has the intent andj demonstrated capacity to destroy you, that is no time for restraint.
Er, so how exactly do those guys 'in caves with AK's and RPG's,' as you put it, constitute an existential threat to the United States?
Marcus, dear ... you seem quite over wrought of late. Calling for hyper inflation, economic autarchy, the liquidation of the professional classes in business and the military, and now demanding WW III.
What on earth have you been reading? Collected works of Joseph Stalin, perhaps?
I dunno, but whatever it is, you obviously need a break. Take a week, head out to the country, do some fishing. The sun also rises, old chap.
And please, lay off the Stalin.
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WE HAVE A US PRESIDENT THAT DOES NOT UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION. This would be the time to attack us, when we have a commander in chief who would bow down, roll over, play dead. But it won't happen because this is the kind of president radical Muslims want. Someone who FOLLOWS emotions of other societies, who will remove the US citizens' most basic rights himself. Listen: There is no freedom of religion without free speech. (Agnostics, you can even kiss your FSM joke goodbye.) Since Obama won't be impeached, VOTE REPUBLICAN across the board. An independent vote is a vote withheld from Obama's opposition (essentially FOR Obama) and an independent vote is a vote withheld from any Democrat's opposition. So please if you want your rights restored, do not vote third party now. Remember, the Democrats have been in power of both houses since 2006.
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The fact that the west had developed notions of freedom, human rights etc., also has a relationship with its Christian roots. Secular humanism etc., developed on a Christian basis, even if it was the result of a criticism of Christianity. Its interesting that societies with no Christian history do not share these values to such an extent. Further I do not agree that every Christian should be made responsible for the Crusades. The crusades were the result of the popes aspirations. Further, although I condone the crusades, the fact is that they were a response to an invasion of muslims into Palestine, Egypt etc., countries which were to a large extent Christian. Its all right to be a democrat in an armchair, but if you as a non muslim start paying taxes higher than muslims, you are faced with everyday torture or destruction this gives one a true objective and therefore democratic perspective.
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USA feeling uneasy about Islam. Hmm. Thinks.
Could two massively stupid wars creating thousands of angry adherents in their own country have something to do with it.
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This latest of proof that Obama has no ties or beliefs in Christianity should be no surprise to Americans or the world. In every step concerning Islam he has stepped in the footprints of those that follow and believe in Islam.
His twenty years of attending a white hating, Islam loving, Black Liberation Church should have been enough evidence for most, if they didn't want to just ignore it, that he is no Christian - that at the least he believes in nothing but himself and at the worst believes in Islam or the religion of Markism with a dash of Islam to wash it all down with.
But back to the Pastor. The evil man who wishes to call Islam what it is. A religion [actually a political and social way of life from birth to death] that preaches violence against all "unbelievers" and a political movement to convert the world to Islam.
By guile or by violence.
For centuries the followers of Islam have been murdering those not of Islam, burning their churches, synagogue and places of worship. Doing everything they can to subvert, subject those not of Islam to convert or die. Then among themselves killing, torturing and disfiguring those that do not adhere and obey the instructions and writings of their most holy book of Islam - The Qur'an - and of course its attending writings that have accumulated over the centuries including the most deviant and despicable of all - The laws of Islam - Shariah [the code of law derived from the Koran and from the teachings and example of Mohammad].
Yes, there is going to be a reckoning, a war, a fight to the death, a continuing crusade and holy war. It has already started, it started more than forty years ago with the followers of Islam attacking those not of Islam. It continues today but will get much worse, much more violent until not just thousands die, but millions die.
Islam will be reduced to a few in caves and isolated places. Just like it started. But it will not be wiped out nor defeated. Those few left, those who still are true believers in Islam will start anew, will continue their quest and will grow once again in a few hundred years to begin again their quest for the domination of Islam over the world.
So it is written, so it shall be...until the last Muslim is dead.
Papa Ray
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Kentucker wrote: rubbish.
"As a Christian there is only one God.."
Judaism, Christianity, Islam -- all share the same wrathful, spiteful misogynist god.
"..Islam is a religion for mostly primitive thinking.."
not so, without Islamic scholars and, say, their 'invention' of algebra, your country might never have sent anyone into space, let alone to the moon.
"But then we will not see that will we?"
quite, "there's none so blind as they that won't see" (Jonathan Swift).
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43. At 10:26pm on 10 Sep 2010, SCRAPBANKOFENGLAND wrote:
and 128. At 12:18pm on 11 Sep 2010, SCRAPBANKOFENGLAND wrote:
At 00:24am on 11 Sep 2010, JMM
“Please explain your poor joke. Didn't make any sense.
Also do you have any counter points to what I said or do you lack the intelligence ?
Do you mean to say you were being serious and expect that nonsense to be taken and reacted to seriously? Back at you on lack of intelligence!
But here is what I mean [if it is not lack of intelligence on your part but just poor writing skills I take back that last bit].
“And can someone please correct me if wrong but the Homeland Security and Patriot Acts brought in by Bush pretty much allow arrests in the States to happen with no required evidence but merely suspicion etc.”
In the first place “the states in the States” have most jurisdiction over crime and there is no federal police force, per se. Neither the fed, nor the state nor the local police can just pick up anyone off the street for any reason [unlike in Anglistan or Eurostan].
I’ll give you that the evil GWB and his more evil puppet master Dick Cheney would have liked what you described and arguably attempted to enforce it.
“The incitement of racial hatred alone was enough to arrest this man in a country that has no qualms with taking people off the street and locking them up so why didn't they?”
Islam is not a race, dislike or distrust of Islam or Muslims does not constitute racism any more than dislike or distrust of Americans is racism.
Freedom of speech [please look up this difficult and unfamiliar concept] is inherent and inalienable and protected by the US Constitution and Bill of Rights [q.v.]. President Barack Hussein Obama [of the US, a man of mixed race, please look him up] has stated that the constitution of the US protects freedom of speech [meaning both for the pastor and the Islamic Center proposed in NYC].
“Covert operations to do this by CIA and other Intelligence agencies has been proven, see BBC report from 2005 of British soldiers dressed as Arabs shooting indiscriminately into crowds before arrested by Iraqi police then captured and freed by special forces.”
As an American, even though I possess 3 university degrees, I am not qualified to argue with you about whether the British military are controlled by or working as members of the “CIA or other intelligence agencies.”
As for "tin foil hats," People who have paranoid fancies are often said to wear them, which was discussed on one of these threads previously.
I hope this clears up some of your confusion.
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Mr Mardell,
How you even have the gall to suggest Obama is the one to have 'elevated' the pastor, when this whole charade has been whipped up out of all proportion by the Western media, of which you lie firmly in the centre?
This is a classic media self-fulfilling prophecy case (I refer you to the work of Robert K. Merton).
You and your fellow BBC cronies should hang your heads in shame for giving this nobody a voice. Terry Jones is laughing his head off right now.
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@158 Sorry, your knowledge of the history of the crusades is lacking. The Arab invaders were welcomed into Egypt and the Levant because, for religious and other reasons, the rule of Byzantium was highly unpopular. Hence, on the whole, the local population at the time preferred the Arabs.
(My information does not come from Wikipedia, but from Sir JB Glubb's histories and other reputable sources.)
America is a young country: it must be difficult for Americans to appreciate that in parts of Europe and around the Mediterranean there are hatreds which go back hundreds if not thousands of years. These hatreds are sometimes compounded by new nationalisms which rewrite history from a particular point of view.
In the Middle-East, the memory of the Crusader states is part of the history that people live in their divided communities, Christian. Sunni, Druze etcetera.
In the UK we have communities in Ulster and Scotland with strong tribal religious divisions. My Welsh choir sings songs, like Men Of Harlech, rooted in events seven hundred years ago, which are now reinterpreted out of context to create new divisions instead of the old. People rarely want to know the whole truth, because it's too complicated - it's so much easier to hate!
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re: 160 Papa So it is written, so it shall be...until the last Muslim is dead.
And here we see that warm, love filled humility and respect for other faiths for which certain christians are so well known.
You must truly be inspired by the spirit of Jesus, brother.
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151. At 2:48pm on 11 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
..."First of all it's Terry Jones with a "T" not a P. And exactly who is going to decide what is the logic that should restrict him from exercising his constitutional right to be kookie, some tin pot tyrant like you? That is why the framers of the constitution put it beyond reach and why the US Supreme Court is very wary of "the slippery slope" of censorship which leads from one small step down a path that takes it over a cliff. He would burn some books, you would destroy the constitution. And you don't hear me telling you to shut up."
Amazingly [or outrageously] this is a point on which we are both in almost perfect agreement [maybe we should both go and check our meds:-)]!
I have tried explaining that freedom of speech is an inherent and inalienable right, but it just doesn't seem to get through to many of them [excepting, of course, IF and UKW probably].
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@161
Quite:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Khwarizmi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyam
Also, many writings of the ancient Greeks, including parts of Euclid and Archimedes would have been lost had they not been preserved by Arabic and Persian scholars during the European Dark Ages.
Our number system is the Hindu-Arabic system, introduced to Europe by Fibonacci.
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The United States has a nasty habit of elevating certifiable morons standing on outhouse pulpits just because they claim to be religious "leaders". Unfortunately, Darwin's Law does not work fast enough to resolve this problem. Little by little it does away with these twits, but it takes time.
However, the real question is here is why MEDIA is elevating this moron? If the media had totally ignored this idiot, we would not be having this discussion, would we? So who is elevating who? Is there anyone here from the media who will deny that in every single day that this paston moron has been covered, there were not at least 100 other stories that were more newsworthy than this?
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SC #152;
I am not interested in the debate about the history of the conflict in the Middle East, who was to blame, who was right, who was wrong. That debate will go on forever. There is no changing the past. The facts that are pertinent are about the here and now.
The United States has and will continue to support the State of Israel as a Jewish state. Even President Obama is resigned to that after he had to be dragged kicking and screaming by the majority of Americans to accept it.
The United States has been attacked and the people who planned and carried out the attack have not been captured or killed. In fact they are still at large planning new attacks, finding new recruits for their cause, not deterred from their goal of destroying America as completely as they possibly can.
The so called system of international laws which was intended to provide what has been called "collective security" whether through the United Nations or Geneva Conventions has not worked. Whether they were not suited for the situation we find ourselves in now or were just plainly naive and ill conceived from the beginning is unimpportant. What is important is that we abandon them becuase they are worse than useless, they are counterproductive impeding our ability to defend ourselves.
Is America still under attack? Is a war still being waged even clandestinely against it? Do we have the ability to identify, find, and destroy the enemy before he can wreak more havoc and destruction on us? I know we have the means to defeat him. But do we have the will or the skill to effectively use those means? I have grave concerns about the efficacy of the strategy our leaders are using to protect us. It seems in the long run, their ideas will fail. One only has to look at Iran to know the frightening truth about that.
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154. At 3:00pm on 11 Sep 2010, zee4 and
155. At 3:02pm on 11 Sep 2010, Kentucker
Fundamentalist “Christians” are very adept at cherry picking and occasionally misrepresenting to suit their purpose.
One of your most obvious omissions was the “Jefferson Bible” and Jefferson’s many comments defending his removal of the superstitious nonsense from the book of the faith you claim he and the other founders based this country on.
Like President Obama, early politicians paid considerable lip service to the beliefs of those they governed or hoped to govern. Some examples are a non-Jewish politician wearing a yarmulka or a protestant politician in a St. Patrick’s Day Parade.
Readers who do their homework instead of buying your propaganda like good GOP/FOX/TEA simpletons will find what you have deliberately omitted.
John Adams wrote, “The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?”
and “God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.”
I think this is sufficient to puncture your claim to “fair and balanced” reportage.
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MAII @135 wrote:
"And that is why we have volunteers who go out to fight and maybe die, they understand this too. They do it because they want to, not because they are forced to like in most other countries including the UK. That's what makes them heroes".
==========================
A good many young Americans did their very best, including leaving the USA, to avoid the draft during the Vietnam war. Britain on the other hand did away with conscription half a century ago, and has had a purely volunteer armed service ever since, long before the US. That is one reason why, man for man, they they still amongst the very best in the world. Not the biggest, but among the best. It was UK special forces who were called in by Charlie Beckwith to train your Delta Force after all. How that must stick in your throat.
I don't make this point to denigrate US forces, especially those who are even now risking their lives alongside UK forces in Afghanistan, but simply to show, once again, and as if any needed convincing, that you simply don't know what you are talking about when it comes to the UK, a country which I doubt you have ever visited. Given the continuous stream of hatred that you pour out on here towards everything that is not as American as apple pie, and your obvious enthusiasm for military action, many of us who have served in uniform, for whichever country, would be very interested in knowing just when and where you served yourself? Or is your jingoism the typical ranting of the armchair warrior who has never confronted the reality of war himself? Those who have tend to be far more measured in committing people's sons and daughters to war.
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Burn the Quran burn Muslim Remove their organ sell their blood issue Transplant on want send suicide bomber and fetch supply all at once in the name of Osama now likely Obama or Bin Ladin Eng Builders of Kaba contractors.Lately kaba is projected as Fireplace for Greek Mythology.Fire making Kaba Cubicle. Fireworshing Zeus and Spartan.In short cut this is to catch Bin Ladin in London in New York in Montreal or Seattle _ Sarah Palin Alaska Khannate or in Pakistan , Bankers financiers and aircraft builders have designed now short cut to make money.Why build $50 Million dollar Building with swimming pool like Arabs used to buy in New York on two floor on 25th floor.Why not charge $1500 milllion extra (like Burj Dubai) with elevated price 1450 new millionaires in one go.There is tons of money for security guards builders bankers and let Prez Obama or PM Harper or PM Cameron bring more stimulus package.Better still create a home grown Bin Ladiin right at home send all the security guards and stimulus package beneficieries and Banks and movie makers to their private plane private yatcht and let their assistant create own Osama or Obama or Bhutto or tut ank Kamun looking History in reincarnation linking to Koran or Bible or Torah .They may have so much blood in their hand so much sin sex perversion that they would like to blame Quran of Female circumcission Full veil Hijab Poverty despair and hungry cornered Muslim Ummah ( with no investment no money to them to create future babies).These hypocrites are no Muslims or Godly but devil themselves.They may have even ready made Bin Ladin of Quran available for instant projection with Burn the Quran slogan while they buy their luxury yatch luxury car luxure villa and private jets in their exclusive jet set Clubs they propose with free organs wine girls and thousand virgin child girls they kidnap in the name of Natural disaster of Allah .This is Burn the Quran of Devil God . They have perhaps in custody in case they are caught.Pastor Terry Jone have a point in despair with offer for help in cash luxury in lieu of Quran Burning incentive.
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157. At 3:14pm on 11 Sep 2010, Grateful_Free wrote total nonsense.
There is a poster who would make fun of you by mutating your name, but I won't do that. I suggest you stop listening to FOX, Rush Limbaugh, Anne Coulter, Hannity and all the other ranters.
Read the Constitution and then look at things logically.
George Bush [Republican] damaged our civil rights and constitutional protections with that Patriot Act, President Obama can be faulted only for failing to repeal it and not trying to get GWB impeached for it.
President Obama stated that the Pastor and the NYC Islamic Cultural Center proponents both are protected in their freedom by the Constitution. That is called PROTECTING, not destroying the Constitution.
Many "conservative" people in the US are being manipulated by the simplest propaganda tricks because they are either too poorly educated or too lazy to check the facts.
Fox claims to be "fair and balanced" but they are not, they feed your fears to control you, and they are anything but fair and balanced. You really must stop believing everything that makes you feel good, and check things out with a bit of intelligence.
And, lest you think I am trying to propagandize you, check out everything I say too, but from an unbiased source.
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SC;
"America is a young country: it must be difficult for Americans to appreciate that in parts of Europe and around the Mediterranean there are hatreds which go back hundreds if not thousands of years. These hatreds are sometimes compounded by new nationalisms which rewrite history from a particular point of view."
Not for this American. It is the golden thread which wends its way all throughout Europe binding it together. It is as irrational and destructive as it could possibly be and manifests itself in the news practically every single day. For example, just yesterday BBC reported that Kosovo which wants to break away from Serbia also wants to join the EU. So does Serbia. So they fight a war killing each other to break away only to join an organization whose goal is to weld them back together again. And you can see that all over Europe. Ireland and the UK. The Basque and the Spanish. Czechs and Slovaks. Waloons and Flemish. That is just one example of their irrationality. If there is one place in the world that knows how to destroy wealth without creating it itself it's Europe. It's a Pandora's box of self contradictions, confusion, and hatreds Turkey should be grateful it will never be permitted to enter. This is why President Washington was right when he warned future generations of Americans to stay clear of entangling alliances with Europeans and why Woodrow Wilson who was the first President to ignore that warning was the worst President America ever had.
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Did Obama 'elevate' Florida pastor? Oh don't be such a fool, this guy has been spouting since July if not before and the media brought it to the forefront and turned it into a circus like they always do. Mardell you were useless in Europe and now continue in the US, can I have your job?
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160. At 3:43pm on 11 Sep 2010, Papa Ray wrote bizarrely ignlrant twaddle: "His twenty years of attending a white hating, Islam loving, Black Liberation Church should have been enough evidence for most..."
Do you even read your own writing and think about what the words really mean? "Islam loving Black Liberation Church" would in fact be "enough evidence for most" to label you as probably
1. ignorant or poorly educated
2. racist
3. irrational
4. incoherent
I'm sure neither you, nor I nor the BBC would want you to be so stigmatized because of a perceived disadvantaged background.
May I please suggest that you research the "talking points" that you have been given, stop watching and parroting FOX, Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Beck and so on, examine your points for logicality and congruence with objective fact, and above all, try to look at what President Obama really does and not what someone tells you that he does.
That might be a bit difficult, so maybe someone in the 11th grade or higher could help you out.
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Tommy Tunes #171;
Perhaps your military personnel would be more effective if your government thought enough of them and the value of their lives to send them into battle properly equipped. Evidently their lives are not worth the extra money especially when MPs must have their swimming pools tended and their dog's nails clipped with public money. Who would volunteer to join an army that defends a government that thinks so little of them?
I have made no secret that I have not and will not visit the UK, at least not if I can help it (one never knows where a work assignment will take him but I'd consider quitting a job first rather than go. Although I've been in more than 40 countries I do not plan to leave the United States again, not even to Canada.) Besides, who'd want to visit a country that lays claim to having invented haggis and releases mass murderers of Americans on phony humanitarian grounds anyway?
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#174. At 4:46pm on 11 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
SC; "America is a young country:"
Sacha summed it up well in the first few words. I suspect that only politeness prevented him from adding the obvious thing that come with youth: naivety.
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JMM;
"George Bush [Republican] damaged our civil rights and constitutional protections with that Patriot Act"
Which of your civil rights did President Bush damage? Did he send the FBI to have a chat with you warning you about what you say and do in public that was your right to?
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I propose that it's our commercialized, money-hungry, sensation-obsessed, AND unprofessional American media and our self-absorbed, civically-illiterate, "tell-me-what-I-want-to-hear" American society that should get the rap for the fiasco in Florida (or for any other media feeding-frenzy that come our way) - not the President of the United States. Mr. Obama is, perhaps, this country's smartest and most qualified president ever! Under present circumstances in this crumbling country of ours, do we honestly know of anyone who really would want his incredibly difficult, mind-boggling job? (Glenn Beck maybe?)
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I notice Obama did not show his face in New York - choosing to mark 9/11 at the pentagon.
I wonder why that was?
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As a Canadian I watch and observe political developments in the United States very closely.
If President Obama had not commented upon the issue of buring the Koran (as he rightly did)he would have been subjected to withering criticism from the right wing, FOX News, Tea Party activitists and the likes of Sarah Palin, Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh for NOT STANDING UP to this looney Florida preacher.
Irrespective of what President Obama says and irrespective of what actions President takes,nothing will deter them from their sole objective(from the day he assumed office)to literallly destroy his presidency.
The man is in a no win situation.
How President Obama maintains his sanity in the midst of such insanity is beyond me.
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#158, Bill111 wrote:
"The fact that the west had developed notions of freedom, human rights etc., also has a relationship with its Christian roots."
Roots like the Spanish Inquisition, witch-burning and ethnic cleansing? You're right, it seems that some of these notions are still flourishing.
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vegetative state #178;
At least as a young country the US found the wisdom to make strong progress at putting many of our hatreds behind us even if we haven't gotten completely rid of all of them yet. But as Sacha pointed out, even after thousands of years, Europeans cling tenaciously to theirs which only proves the old saying that there's no fool like an old fool.
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The Media 'elevated' Pastor Jones - played right into his hands. The President had every right to weigh in when the press had spun the story to fever pitch. He spoke with dignity & authority.
Attention placated Pastor Jones - put his little pin on the map - and opened the door for copy cats.
Hopefully his 15 minutes will be over soon.
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@164
What you are saying is correct. It is true that the Christians were happy when the muslims came to Egypt and Palestine, since they found the byzantine rule oppresive. I am aware of that. But that has nothing to do with my point. The fact is, that before muslim rule, Egypt was a Christian and native religious state, as well as Palestine with a flourishing culture. All this was destroyed. These christians did not like byzantine rule but adhered to Christianity. If you go to present day Egypt or for that matter Iraq and see how coptic Christian churches are burned downed at will, Christians are second class citizens etc., you will surely understand that these people now understood that the muslims did not come to liberate them from byzantine rule. Furthermore in countries like in Iraq and Egypt the respect for ancient history is at a low rate due to the fact that any history before Islam is considered the dark ages.
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161. At 3:51pm on 11 Sep 2010, jr4412 wrote:
Kentucker wrote: rubbish.
"As a Christian there is only one God.."
Judaism, Christianity, Islam -- all share the same wrathful, spiteful misogynist god.
"..Islam is a religion for mostly primitive thinking.."
not so, without Islamic scholars and, say, their 'invention' of algebra, your country might never have sent anyone into space, let alone to the moon.
//////////////////
That's the problem, very little , if any knowledge of theolgy on these posts. If there was, a knowledge of Biblical NT teaching on the claims of Christ, would be clearly known and understood.
And I wasn't aware that the UK had sent anyone to the moon?
Must be very comforting to know that the suicide bomber that has just blown themselves and many innocent people up has a Phd in algebra!
You really must do better.
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MAII @177:
I note, Marcus, that you don't comment upon my remarks about Delta Force, modelled upon and trained by the British SAS. Either you don't have any respect for them (I do) or something good came out of the UK. Which do you think it is? Take your time . . . .
Incidentally, admitting that you have a problem is the first step on the road to a cure. Now repeat slowly after me: "I was wrong in suggesting that UK forces are not a purely volunteer body of men and women."
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#177
Yawn...go on...just say it...."The British Army is 100% volunteer and I got it wrong."
Also, whilst your on..."Not one British soldier has left Helmand like I claimed in a previous blog".
Oh and to put right a previous accusation..."Although I claimed Dresden was a crime committed by the RAF I decided not to bother researching something about which I knew nothing, and therefore ignored the fact that the USAAF was fully involved".
Just do it, you'll feel better.
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171. At 4:32pm on 11 Sep 2010, PickledPete wrote:
"...you pour out on here towards everything that is not as American as apple pie..."
Oh, my! Did you have to bring that up? The emperor doesn't like to be reminded that {that dish} was really invented by {ghasp} the Germans, nor {sacre bleu} that the French have a very tasty variation.
"...and your obvious enthusiasm for military action, many of us who have served in uniform, for whichever country, would be very interested in knowing just when and where you served yourself?"
Enthusiasm is very understated [are you British?] but like you I am amazed by the volume and potency of the vitriol. I would also like to know which service.
Having served in uniform yourself you are obviously under no illusions about privileged stay-at-homes like "W" and Dick "better things to do" Cheney, thinking about the well-being of service members. After all you "fight the war you have, not the one you want," and you won't need armor as they'll only be throwing flowers.
My thanks, whichever service you were in and of whichever country, for voluntarily doing your part to preserve, protect and defend a civilization that, if gone a bit corrupt lately, is still better than the alternatives on offer.
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71. At 00:43am on 11 Sep 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:
And what evidence, exactly, do you have for this 'belief'? If any? Assuming, despite all evidence to the contrary, that evidence and proof are concepts you are familiar with?
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My evidence comes from daily life in USA.
For a long time I denied it because I did not want to believe it was true, that he could or would do that to us. In fact, I voted for him because I was fooled good. But now I know why we are so disconnected. It is anger over past ancestors' actions.
Holder's comments after Obama being elected
(he called us a Nation of Cowards)
Obama taking the side of Prof. Gates and scolding the police officer
(before the beer retreat)
Napolitano's stance on illegals and comments made
Obama stance on supporting millions of illegals getting citizenship
Obama stance on suing Arizona immigration laws
(some Admin. officials admitted they hadn't even read it)
Obama's former Pastor's comments
(the opposite of God Bless America)
Obama's comments before election
(small town America clings to guns and religion)
The case of the Black Panthers and Justice Dept.
Obama sticking up for Ground Zero Mosque
(while he sends the FBI to Jones)
Obama's speech in Cairo while he gave no speech to Christians or Jews
The list goes on and on...it all adds up.
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Yet more mendacious , groundless drivel, without proof. You seem content to endlessly repeat mindless sub-Limbaugh slogans without thought or evidence. Who exactly is he 'intimidating? If he is trying to silence you, regrettably he is having little success.
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I can proudly say that I refuse to listen to Limbaugh and have never even once listened to Limbaugh. If you listen to Limbaugh,that is your own thing. Just because someone dislikes Obama does not mean they are a Limbaughite.
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Have you really no concept of logic, fact, proof or truth? Have you no shame? Have you no decency? I don't think the Islamists can defeat the USA – but simplistic simple-minded bigotry well might.
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Actually, I have only too much logic, facts, proof, truth and decency.
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The whole "humanitarian" release of convicted terrorist Megrahi was bizarre.
UK and BP. It is very obvious what took place.
We definitely have differences.
I am still beyond appreciative and grateful to the UK soldiers and all other countries soldiers who are fighting with us against the Islamic terrorists.
I would like to say "Thank you," to every person out there, regardless of age, race, sex, or country, who is fighting against the Islamic terrorists.
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Tommy Tunes;
"I note, Marcus, that you don't comment upon my remarks about Delta Force, modelled upon and trained by the British SAS. Either you don't have any respect for them (I do) or something good came out of the UK. Which do you think it is? Take your time . . . ."
The truth is...I don't know much about them. But I have a hunch that they would have developed just as well if not better with training by the Israelis. Or they could have developed their techniques themselves by observing other such forces. I'll bet things have advanced to the point where they could teach their teachers more than a thing or two. And I'll bet they are very well equipped to do their job.
"Incidentally, admitting that you have a problem is the first step on the road to a cure."
Then congratulations. Calling yourself Pickled Pete must have taken a lot of self examination. Do you know the twelve steps yet?
I wouldn't know about the UK having an all volunteer military. Why would anyone volunteer to defend the UK? Can't imagine.
BTW, if you must know, I volunteered myself during the Vietnam war. I was turned down with a medical deferment. 4F due to 3rd degree flat feet. A 25 mile hike would put me in a hospital. Too bad, I'd have made one hell of a fighter pilot. That's what I always wanted to be when I was young, a jet fighter pilot.
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@ MarcusAureliusII
I think you'll find the country that invented the Haggis was Scotland.
I think you'll find too, that Britain invented an awful lot - including the BBC your using... [the clues in the name ;)]
Your comments earlier on the Constitution are baffling - a system that would never possibly evolve should not be revered as evolutionary. Granted it can be changed by US politicians, but as they hold the same semi-sacred viewpoint as yourself, it's unlikely to react to situations very well.
Aside from MarcusAureliusII, why are we not simply condemning the Pastor's actions and leaving it at that. And why is the Islamic Centre not allowed to be built, if people were sensible neither action would provoke anyone. As the Pastor is an outside extremist, only extremist Muslims should rise to his bait, sensible one's should ignore him like we should 'ignore' terrorist extremists. Only extremists on either side could get upset at the actions of either of these parties, a sensible person would let it pass.
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#193
"BTW, if you must know, I volunteered myself during the Vietnam war."
Weren't you a scruffy student in France at the time? Draft dodger?
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Ps MarcusAureliusII just saw your last post, a British man also invented the jet engine...
I'm not trying to 'big up' the UK, just don't understand why you have to make baseless comments.
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Obama didn't elevate this lunatic, the media did. If the press hadn't inflicted this story upon the rest of us 24/7, and given it the international status it didn't deserve, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Whoever inflated this story knew how to inflame the sensitives of radical Muslims and put our American troops in danger. September 11 is a sensitive anniversary, yet there are those who continue fanning the flames of this well-timed controversy. I commend our president for his ability to quell what appears to be a very well contrived, manufactured firestorm.
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MAII, old enemy ;-D
It's all very sad really. Wherever I have been in the States I have met with warmth and kindness - and in Europe too. My father found friendship both amongst (but not between) Bedouins and Jews in Palestine in WWII.
You have said in previous blogs that you hate Europe - fair enough. But all you are doing is taking irrationality to a global rather than a local level.
There are several components to the old hatreds. Religion is undoubtedly one of them, but others boil down to perceptions of tribal territory: memories (usually distorted) of "blood and land" conflicts, some going back to the "barbarian" invasions of the Roman Empire.
However, the US hardly seems to be a land of pure sweetness and light. You have your own divisions, inflamed by religious differences, but based on blood, land and wealth. Some of you seem to think that you have the equivalent of a barbarian invasion coming from the south.
In the light of the lack of civility between US citizens on this blog, it seems to me that there is a danger of your current "young" hatreds, becoming the old hatreds of the next millenium - if the human race lasts that long.
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johnnysgotsmoginhisnoggin;
"I think you'll find the country that invented the Haggis was Scotland."
I think if you read my posting carefully you'll find I referred to Britain which includes Scotland although some seem to forget that at times and some Scots wish they could. I also think that if you read the old news, you will find that in 2009 the English claimed that after much research, they believe it was the English and not the Scots who invented it. What an ignominious recipe to lay claim to. Given their reputation for their cullinary skills, I'm inclined to believe it.
"Your comments earlier on the Constitution are baffling - a system that would never possibly evolve should not be revered as evolutionary."
No America didn't evolve. It started with blacks as slaves and each counted in the census as 3/5 of a man and now a little over 200 years later one is President of the United States. No sign of evolution there.
"Aside from MarcusAureliusII, why are we not simply condemning the Pastor's actions and leaving it at that."
Because half the Islamic world is up in arms over the prospect of someone having the affrontery to burn their sacred Koran. If it actually happens, the other half may be up in arms to join them. At least we found a way to "reach out and touch someone" as AT&T's ad used to suggest. We found a psychological weapon that works. Let's use it wisely and effectively and you don't have to be a nuclear scientist to have one, just a computer, a video camcorder, and a book of matches.
"Only extremists on either side could get upset at the actions of either of these parties, a sensible person would let it pass."
Tell that to 1.4 billion angry Moslems.
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Nonsense offramp;
"BTW, if you must know, I volunteered myself during the Vietnam war."
Weren't you a scruffy student in France at the time? Draft dodger?"
No, I went to France after the military turned me down. BTW, when I applied for the service, I had an occupational deferment. I could have just sat the war out and waited for it to end. I was not a draft dodger.
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I pray for the soldiers every day and when I do, I pray not only for American troops, but for each and every soldier from our allied countries. My prayer is for God to love, protect, and watch over each and every soldier, for him to keep them safe from the terrorists and to give them comfort, strength, patience, wisdom and bring them home safely.
I love each and every one of our allies, from the large to the small- they all matter. And if another country tries to harm or invade our friends, we will fight to defend them.
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#184, MarcusAureliusII:
"At least as a young country the US found the wisdom to make strong progress at putting many of our hatreds behind us even if we haven't gotten completely rid of all of them yet."
Do you have a list of the hatreds you've put behind you and those you are still working on? I think you may still have some way to go :o)
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I don't think President Obama elevated the Florida Pastor. All he did was to answer the question he was asked appropriately which he did. I had anticipated that he would be asked the question and he was. If he had evaded answering the question, he would have been accused of supporting one group against the other. He is the President of all Americans and not just a group/faction of Americans. Whichever way, he can't win. All he can do is to do what's right and speak the truth!
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"Asked directly if he had "elevated" the pastor, he [Obama] said that he didn't want a situation where anyone in the country who wanted attention could get it by threatening to burn a Koran."
How about those 'peaceful demonstrators' who burned American flag, after spitting and stomping on it in the heart of New York today (9/11)?
BTW. the outfit which organized the stunt is called (according to news wires) Muslims Against Crusaders.
Here's wondering whether Barack Hussein Obama or his White House spokesman would care to comment on that.
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SC;
"You have said in previous blogs that you hate Europe - fair enough. But all you are doing is taking irrationality to a global rather than a local level."
Not really. I have good and rational reasons to hate Europe. I don't hate Asia, Africa, Latin America, or Australia, just Europe.
"There are several components to the old hatreds. Religion is undoubtedly one of them, but others boil down to perceptions of tribal territory: memories (usually distorted) of "blood and land" conflicts, some going back to the "barbarian" invasions of the Roman Empire."
Yes the Europeans hate each other. All the more reason for me to hate them. After all, who knows them better than they know each other. I'm sure in their minds there must be a good reason for it. If they are right and their hatreds are justified, then so are mine for the same reasons they have. And if they are wrong and they hate each other irrationally, then all the more reason for me to view them with utter contempt for being so stupid.
"Some of you seem to think that you have the equivalent of a barbarian invasion coming from the south."
No, not really, just hordes of desperately poor people looking for a way to make enough money to feed themselves and their families. We feel very sorry for them which is why we've put up with them this long but now we can no longer afford to. They are not only taking mainstream jobs like those in the construction industry away from Americans who desperately need them, they are altering our demography skewing it towards one culture of immigrants. It is impacting our diversity and overwhelming our ability to absorb immigrants into the mainstream. Also among them are some criminals who deal in drugs and arms and the prospect that terrorists will also slip in among them. Demanding that our federal government put a stop to it is our right of petition also under our constitution. Taking action at the state level if the federal government doesn't act has set off a justified firestorm in the courts and the court of public opinion. This may in part explain why Congress right now is very unpopular and the President's popularity is falling also. Senator McCain's co-authorship of the Kennedy McCain bill creating a path for illegal aliens to become citizens was reason enough for me not to vote for him. Very poor judgement on his part.
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MAII asks: Where is the ACLU? Why haven't they spoken out.
Elementary: because: "SOME ANMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"
[FOUR LEGS GOOD, TOO LEGS B-A-A-A-A-A-AD!]
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@186 Bill
Sir, I have intention of starting a futile point scoring battle! :-)
Might I suggest, purely as a matter of interest, that if you have the time you look up Glubb's "Great Arab Conquests". It's partly a social history of Muhammad and his followers and partly a military history, by an experienced soldier with experience of the terrain.
Glubb's research was meticulous, and he writes with compassion and insight. You may well find much to confirm your views, but also some information which challenges them. His "Life and times of Muhammad" is excellent too. It was only after reading the latter book that I understood Salman Rushdie's story in the "Satanic Verses".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glubb_Pasha
Pax Vobiscum! :-)
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#193, MarcusAureliusII:"A 25 mile hike would put me in a hospital."
So there's no need to pay any attention to any of your opinions on the military then.
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MAII wrote: BTW, if you must know, I volunteered myself during the Vietnam war. I was turned down with a medical deferment. 4F due to 3rd degree flat feet. A 25 mile hike would put me in a hospital. Too bad, I'd have made one hell of a fighter pilot. That's what I always wanted to be when I was young, a jet fighter pilot.
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I don't know how old you were at the time, but probably a teen or college age. That was very brave and couragerous of you. One's body is one's body and that is the way it is. Of course today, we have all sorts of medical advancements, so more people can be admitted. But times were different then.
My grandfather, of all German descent, born and raised in Illinois, was a Captain in the Navy and a fighter pilot as well, who got to fight against and shoot down Nazis in WWII. Some of his pictures, documents and possessions of this time are in the D-Day Museum in New Orleans, which is one of the nicest, realistic and most informative museums I have ever been to. He taught one of my mother's sisters how to fly and passed on his love and knowledge of airplanes. He survived the war, but passed away in his 50's from a heart attack. I never got to meet him, but I have heard many wonderful stories. His legacy has been passed on.
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#205,MarcusAureliusII: " .. they are altering our demography skewing it towards one culture of immigrants. "
Classic!
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Re #140 "My greatest concern is that the president and the military have shown this country can be intimidated by those radical muslims who want too see us all dead. Like Neville Chamberlain, he blinked."
Let's hope and pray that another Nairobi or Dar-es-Salam US embassies' bombings (let alone WTC bombings) don't occur before January 2013.
For Mr. Obama's reponse in such case would likely be similar to Jimmy Carter's responses to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan or Islamic Revolution in Iran.
Namely: none.
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204,
It is obvious who those people are.
I am glad I am not around them because hell hath no fury like a scorned female. I could not bear to watch such a thing from the sideline.
In our town, for Labor and 9/11, we have American flags all throughout the streets, as well as a commemorative sign for each and every soldier from our town who is fighting in the wars. All the towns around us are the same- flags and signs for our beloved soldiers.
Could never imagine something like that taking place here.
Sparks would fly.
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#59. At 11:53pm on 10 Sep 2010, colonelartist wrote:
"Most americans deplore islam 24/7..."
Nice generalization. Makes you as reasonable as those who say that MOST Muslims are terrorists. Do you have any proof? Have you spoken to MOST Americans?
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Scotland may well be part of the UK but that wouldn't mean the UK had invented it. The culture of New Orleans does not reflect New York and so you could not label something from one as being 'American'.
Nowhere in the constitution did it say those of a different ethnicity may not stand for President, my point still stands.
Why are 1.4 million angry, did you go and ask them all yourself, or did you just ignorantly assume that? There were protests involving '100's' of Muslisms the other day about the idea. 100's. Not even 1000's, let alone 1.4 billion. Did you assume if the pastor burnt that book, that 1.4 billion Muslims would swarm over the Israeli frontier into America to wipe out the United States using their awesome destructive powers. Or do you think a few thousand fanatical enough to rouse themselves into being angry at the handful of people that support the Pastor. Why reason with extremists who numbered in their hundreds and chanted 'death to president obama' who in now way advocated the book burnings?
PS, on the point of American food, what can be said of it other than what country did it come from first?
PSS, British food is garbage anyway...
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Re "Muslim conquests"....:
634 AD Basra conquered by Muslims.
636 AD Ctesiphon conquered by Muslims.
635 AD Damascus conquered by Muslims.
637 AD Jerusalem conquered by Muslims
641 AD Alexandria conquered by Muslims.
666 AD Sicily conquered by Muslims.
670 AD Kabul conquered by Muslims.
698 AD Carthage conquered by Muslims.
711 AD Southern Spain conquered by Muslims.
720 AD Narbonne conquered by Muslims
732 AD Battle of Poitiers Muslim advance was halted.
Muslim invasions restarted in:
1064 AD Armenia conquered by Muslims.
1071 AD Battle of Manzikert
1331 AD Nicaea conquered by Muslims.
1389 AD Kosovo conquered by Muslims.
1393 AD Bulgaria conquered by Muslims.
1453 AD Constantinople conquered by Muslims.
1460 AD Greece conquered by Muslims.
1521 AD Belgrade conquered by Muslims.
1683 AD Siege of Vienna, Muslim advance stopped September 11, 1689..
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#215, jonnysmoggyparmo:"PSS, British food is garbage anyway..."
Apart from the full-english breakfast, of course! Although Denny's do (or did??) a fair contender :o)
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vegetative state;
"#193, MarcusAureliusII:"A 25 mile hike would put me in a hospital."
So there's no need to pay any attention to any of your opinions on the military then."
There is no need to pay any attention to any of my opinions on anything or even to read them. If I were you I wouldn't. After all I'm....A MEAT EATER! GRRRRR!
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#205,MarcusAureliusII: " .. they are altering our demography skewing it towards one culture of immigrants."
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Its only too true. Just look at California, Michigan and Arizona.
We have a chance right now to make things right and deport all people in this country illegally, secure our borders and stop the invasion.
But with President Obama, his Admin., the Dems and the ACLU on their side, all we can do is vote each and every Dem out of office before its too late.
The Republicans are our only hope for saving America.
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Vegetable grower. Actually, I did forget the invention of most of the curries... If there's ever an arguement for ethnic diversity, Birmingham making the Balti is one of them :P
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smoginyournoggin;
"Did you assume if the pastor burnt that book, that 1.4 billion Muslims would swarm over the Israeli frontier into America to wipe out the United States using their awesome destructive powers."
Must have been...wishful thinking they'd make the attempt on my part.
"PS, on the point of American food, what can be said of it other than what country did it come from first?"
I understand that in Scotland there's a restaurant that invented deep frying Mars bars. And now I've seen it's spread here. Fried Mars bars, what kind of mind would dream up such a thing? And they say it's good...well compared to haggis anyway.
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Ahh the Scots do worse than that, they deep fry anything. Pizza's the latest things apparently.
Lucy, are you brimming with sarcasm, or just a traffic warden?
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11. At 7:48pm on 10 Sep 2010, colonelartist wrote:
.its the mainstreamers and the politics of the west that islamic religous fight against, because they are the ones who actually occupy and oppress the muslims of the globe.
.................................
So those in the islamic religion are,in your words fighting against,mainstream America,and our ideals.
And you wonder why we oppose the mosque at ground zero.
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Did Obama 'elevate' Florida pastor?
No he appeased the terrorists who said they would commit acts of terrorism if the pastor burned the koran.
He threatens to burn a book,they threaten to kill innocent people .
More of the religion of peace.
I though our policy in America was to never negotiate with terrorists.
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I think these forums typify that there are too many right-wing nutjobs and too many Islamic fundamentalists on both sides, regardless of whether they are in the minority or not. It just worries me there seems to be more right-wing fools, as they supposedly come from the same culture as me.
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#220, jonnysmoggyparmo:
"Vegetable grower. Actually, I did forget the invention of most of the curries... If there's ever an arguement for ethnic diversity, Birmingham making the Balti is one of them :P" And don't forget the other other english classics: Chicken Tikka Masala (a fine Scottish invention?) and Bombay Mix from Southall.
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#225. At 7:58pm on 11 Sep 2010, jonnysmoggyparmo wrote:
"I think these forums typify that there are too many right-wing nutjobs and too many Islamic fundamentalists on both sides, regardless of whether they are in the minority or not. It just worries me there seems to be more right-wing fools, as they supposedly come from the same culture as me."
Forums like these always bring out extremists. Extremists are less boring than moderates.
226. At 8:06pm on 11 Sep 2010, saff786 wrote:
"why are all the small minded people are from US?"
Absolutely correct, and not a generalization at all. ALL small minded people are from the US. There are none left anywhere else in the world.
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100. At 04:45am on 11 Sep 2010, John W Sharbrough III wrote:
“We have Islamic extremists on one side who threaten to kill a cartoonist for depicting God in a disrespectful manner and Christian extremists on the other side who want to burn the Quoran. It's not surprising that most ordinary people, both Christian and Muslim, are increasingly frustrated with this course of events.
President Obama has a duty to speak out against extremism. The unwarranted attention that Pastor Jones has received forced the President's hand.”
I think Mr. Shark sums up the whole situation in the simplest and clearest terms.
88. At 03:18am on 11 Sep 2010, Chironz wrote:
“I suppose it wouldn't do to suggest the Muslims burn a few bibles then everyone can be equally offended and we can all move on with our lives?”
Unfortunately, there are people who will read that statement and not get the humor, the reasonableness, and the irony behind it.
84. At 01:49am on 11 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
“Doubled over in Dublin;
"The clear implication is that Obama is a racist"
Not a racist. He's a supplicant abroad, a tyrant at home. The evidence has been building all along but now it has gone beyond what should be tolerated. He is not fit for the job.”
What evidence have you found that Obama is a tyrant?
At 03:46am on 11 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
“"The FBI had visited Mr Jones to urge him to reconsider his plans and he was telephoned by US defence secretary Robert Gates."
If that isn't strongarm intimidation by the federal government to impose self censorship I don't know what is. What next, a call from the IRS threatening to audit him?”
You obviously were privy to their conversations with Mr. Jones. Instead of asking him not to burn the Koran, what did they say to “strong-arm” him?
94. At 04:32am on 11 Sep 2010, Jeremy Stersky wrote:
“I say this: President Obama has made his own life exceptionally difficult. The ideas he espouses are contrary to the general feeling of his electorate.”
Where is your evidence for this statement regarding the general feelings of the electorate? How do you know what the majority of American people want?
57. At 11:52pm on 10 Sep 2010, Swiggs79 wrote:
“I mean seriously in this day and age and level of understanding of science,evolution etc i can't understand how anyone can even rationalise religion with a straight face how can anyone honestly believe that one supreme being created all that is apparent in our world.”
So true.
98. At 04:43am on 11 Sep 2010, Curt Carpenter wrote:
"Am I the only one that sees this whole episode as just one more reason to be profoundly anti-religious?"
Again, so true. But let's remember that the majority of religious people out there really do try to follow their religion as "reasonably" as their religion and their religious associates allows them. Things could be a lot worse.
123. At 10:39am on 11 Sep 2010, BaronDuarte wrote:
Sep 2010, asdelano wrote:
“Dear Mr.Obama,
I do agree that the pastor should not burn the Korans; however, I just thought I'd remind you that "One nation under God" does not refer to multiple gods but rather the one true God of the Bible. We are not "one nation under gods!"
But what if the God (Allah) under Islam is the same as the God of the Bible? We don't know. So it is right that Obama should speak of one nation under God. Then there is the God of followers of the Jewish faith. The president has tried to unite the nation, to ensure that all citizens can feel equal”.
Anno domini. Domini is plural. But otherwise, good point.
And the Winner is...
121. At 09:52am on 11 Sep 2010, Clive Hill wrote:
#70 charlieatlantic
“Thank you for this and other illuminating posts.
I should add that the Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church of England so Britain is not a religious state either.
#various VaughanR24
...In this Hammam every one is naked including Pastor Terry Jones trying to arose sentiments against USA for those investors abroad (including currency converter).
Um, well, I can see the sense in that straight away.
It's obvious that Terry Jones.and there is some resonance from Monty Python.is an agent of Osama Bin Laden.He is trying to drive up Quran prices by limiting supply.thus directing trillions of dollars (and change) of funds to Al Qaeda.which has plans to use the money to build a cathedral in Mecca.thus provoking an outcry from the honest burgers of Riyadh against the.fanatical crusaders who, in their turn, are behind the building of the mosque in New York.there is a known connection between Jones.and the builders of the mosque who have murdered millions of christians.he was not asking them to stop.he was giving them their orders to put a particularly big crescent on top.Like a muslim cake with christian filling.you know this rendom periodic period stuff is quite liberating.everyone should try it.”
Laughs appreciatively) You’ve covered it all…conspiracy, outraged posturing, and rampant paranoia. And…ultimately, it really is all about the money!
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@207 Oops I meant I had no intention.... :-)
@205 MAII
In a logical statement, there is a great difference between ALL X are Y and Some X are Y.
Not ALL Europeans hate each other. Most of us get along most of the time, with a bit of banter. Being a mongrel myself, I have no choice but to try and get on, or instantly dissolve in in an acid pool of self-loathing! :-)
BTW Is any of your ethnicity European - and why choose a Roman Emperor for your nom-de-keyboard, rather than a good ol' American boy? What about "Alexander_Hamilton_II" for example?
@216 Powermeerkat: The truth without the whole truth is of no value - and it's a bit rich coming from a successor of those Christians who invaded another land, committing genocide and ethnic cleansing to steal it from the indigenous population. Even if your ancestors weren't personally involved you have still received stolen goods, so a bit less faux moral indignation?
I'm not really condemning you - all of us who are alive are at least partly descended from the doers, rather than the done to. Just don't insult people's intelligence with such a palpably dishonest argument!
Actually though, anyone who has studied history can hardly claim, as some do, that "Islam is a religion of Peace". But nor is Christianity, though it should be. Looking at the bigger picture of the last Millenium and a half, Muslim rulers have often been more tolerant than their founder intended, whereas Christians have been considerably less so. If I had lost anyone at the twin towers, I wouldn't want either a church or a mosque there. In my own view, religion is the cause of this, and shouldn't benefit in any way.
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#218, MarcusAureliusII: . ..
"#193, MarcusAureliusII:"A 25 mile hike would put me in a hospital."
So there's no need to pay any attention to any of your opinions on the military then."
There is no need to pay any attention to any of my opinions on anything or even to read them. If I were you I wouldn't. After all I'm....A MEAT EATER! GRRRRR!
vegetable_grower >> vegetative state >> vegetarian
Are we on word-association now? Or does your browser incorporate a random-thought generator?
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I'm afraid it's 6 or one and 3+3 of another as far as the "Pastor" and the 9/11 site mosque builders are concerned. They are equally insensitive and adamantine.
Would it have been too much to have constructed a critique on "Did Obama `elevate` Florida Pastor and 9/11 site mosque builders?"
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Perhaps the world's media have been irresponsible in giving this tinpot Pastor so much publicity? If his misguided views had not been publicised he could have stayed in obscurity and the unnecessary provocation of Muslims worldwide could have been avoided. I also find it hard to recognise any Christian characteristics in Pastor Jones so please don't think he represents the Christian viewpoint.
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#216, powermeerkat wrote:
Re "Muslim conquests"....:
some things you may wish to add to your timeline ...
711 AD Southern Spain conquered by Muslims.
(This maybe could include: "Southern Spain, which had previously been taken over from the Byzantine Empire by the Visigoths had many squabbling factions and, In 711, one faction invites an Arab commander to lend support. An Arab army crosses from Africa."
For over 700 years Jews, Christians Muslims (and those who never gave religion much thought) lived and got on together in Andalucia.
1492: Cattholic army expels Moors from Granada city (where Columbus, co-incidentally, gets the contract to discover what will become America).
1498: Moslem priests in Granada were told to hand over there books which were publicly burnt. Some of these 5,000 books were ancient and priceless works of art.
1566: Dr Otadui (later to become a Bishop) advises the King that “the more dead Moors the better, for there will be fewer enemies“.
1614: ethnic cleansing pretty much completed.
History does seem to repeat itself.
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From a fantasy universe:
Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself — a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred.
Frank Herbert - Dune Messiah
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Copies of the Quran were desecrated Saturday in three unrelated instances — one behind the gates of a Christian religious compound in Kansas, one at a public park in front of the White House and a third in front of cameras not far from ground zero.
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Clearly, it is not just people from USA who feel such a way...
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0910/Quran-banning-advocate-Geert-Wilders-heads-to-ground-zero
One exerpt:
Wilders, who lives under 24 hour protection, and was recently the subject of a call by a radical Australian imam for beheading, has praised Geller’s recent book, “The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration’s war on America.” Wilders described it as a “chilling analysis,” of a policy by President Obama to erode America’s role in the world: "America is the last man standing and it is vital that the people of Europe adopt the attitude of proud American citizens and learn that it is not shameful to be proud of ones heritage," Wilders writes.
Another interesting article about Europe and Islamics
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0905/Why-Islamophobia-is-less-thinly-veiled-in-Europe/(page)/2
An exerpt:
After 9/11, a small industry of literature, much of it produced in the US, predicted a coming "Eurabia" – a tsunami of Islam that will make Europe unrecognizable, where Muslim birthrates overwhelm older populations, mosques are as plentiful as McDonald's restaurants, and Islamic sharia law supplants European constitutions.
Daniel Luban, a doctoral candidate at the University of Chicago, offers in a recent paper that many of the core assumptions of "Islamophobia" in the US spring from Europe. "While the political operatives behind the anti-mosque campaign speak the language of nativism and American exceptionalism, their ideology is itself something of a European import. Most of the tropes of the American 'anti-jihadists,' as they call themselves, are taken from European models."
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#237, LucyJ: this could be good news.
If the American people get to believe that it's a European idea then they will surely reject it! Anyway, they've got the money and the oil so wouldn't it be better just to get on with them?
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My point is that this is not only a feeling many Americans share, but a feeling that many Europeans share, as well...and that some may even feel stronger that we do in some instances...
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Of course, they are more connected to other countries cultures due to location/the past and they have more Muslims than we have.
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I am quite grateful that the only countries we are connected to by location are Canada and Mexico- even with Mexico being rough, I guess it could be worse...
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If there were floods of Muslims...
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Although truth be told, we have no idea who is in our country illegally...
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Freedom is worth more than money and oil.
But freedom isn't free...
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How will the freedom be financed, then - if not using borrowed money and imported oil?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Glubb on James I of Aragon (d 1276) from The Lost Centuries - The Reconquista.
"....this Christian hero rarely kept faith with Muslims, to whom he was prepared to perjure himself to gain a treacherous advantage, nor did he hesitate to massacre Muslims whenever an opportunity offered. These methods were employed ostensibly in the name of Him who told His followers to love their enemies - a remarkable example of how men obey those precepts of religion which suit them but fail to notice such as go against their inclinations. In some directions, James the Conqueror seemed even to imitate the hated infidel, for he was cultured and well educated, a patron of poetry and literature and maintained a numerous establishment of concubines."
From Lévi-Provençal "Le Role Spirituel de l' Espagne Musulmane"
"The scholars of Islam...relit a torch which, but for them might have been extingushed - that of scientific research. By this means they opened to Europe the way ...which was to lead to the Renaissance."
I quite understand those who may dislike or be afraid of some of the more prominent faces of modern Islam. However, I also strongly object to people with an obviously inadequate education sneering at what was a rich culture. The many achievements of Arabic learning have contributed contributed greatly to the successes and richness of modern civilisation.
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Not only has Barack Obama elevated Pastor Jones, he has failed to support world feeling about the insensitivity of a 'cultural' centre in close proximity to Ground Zero. He should be dealing with the cause not the effect... Who is most entitled to be offended?
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Fear and even hatred of Islam will not tie America and Europe together. Scare mongering is not enough to make Americans forget the betrayal by Europe when America felt threatened after September 11, 2001 and in 2002 and 2003 by Iraq. It wasn't just some European governments, it was 90% of the populations of most European countries and 50% of the UK. This after America spent trillions and risked WWIII with the USSR for 45 years to defend western Europe from being taken over by the Soviets. Besides, America knows if it will be saved from being overwhelmed by Islam (very unlikely threat) it will only be able to count on itself for defense. By contrast if Europe faces being overwhelmed by Islam (a possibility) America couldn't save it even if it cared to. The bonds that tied Europe and America during the cold war are broken beyond repair. Chirac and Schroeder were just the catylists. Europeans did that themselves.
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And now, ladies and gentlemen, the award for "Best Post in an Endless and Largely Pointless Moan."
And the winner is.....
!!! #131 by Lupe101 !!!
(Thunderous applause!)
Well Done Lupe101! Come on up here on stage to collect your award and say a few words to the folks that are watching at home... Tell us, when did you first realize that a little wit wouldn't be lethal in this conversation?
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It is not Obama who has elevated the pastor it is the media. Obama would never had given a group of such pathetic significance a moment of his time had he not been driven to it by this insistent, provocative media coverage.
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@240 LucyJ
but Freedom isn't free I quite agree. It's also rather difficult when the rich and powerful own most of the media and constantly bombard us with misinformation. How can we then think for ourselves?
During WWII a book called "Straight and Crooked Thinking" by Robert Thoulless was distributed amongst British troops to help counteract Nazi propaganda. I read it in 1971, when I was 16, subsequently making myself a little unpopular amongst some of my contemporaries. :-) It's out of print at the moment, but still available second hand - alas at something of a premium. I would recommend it to anyone - it helped me set my mind free - and changed my life!
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# 155. At 3:02pm on 11 Sep 2010, Kentucker wrote:
"The fact is Mr Obama, for all of your espousing your Christianity, your many other words on the subject clearly demonstrate on your lack of understanding of what true Christianity is all about and therefore your own foundational faith and doctrine. As a Christian there is only one God and he is found only through Jesus Christ and THAT is His name and upon who the USA was founded. But then given your background I still subscribe to the belief that you are still a Muslim and it is that fact that drives all of your policies."
"But then we will not see that will we? You are too busy 'reaching out' and appeasing the very people that want to bring America down. Aided and abetted by the liberal media, with the BBC in the vanguard, ever ready to highlight something negative about Chistianity and Christians."
Ken, you are clearly perfectly able to "to highlight something negative about Chistianity (sic) and Christians", without any help from that nasty ol' "liberal media"...
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160. At 3:43pm on 11 Sep 2010, Papa Ray wrote:
"Yes, there is going to be a reckoning, a war, a fight to the death, a continuing crusade and holy war. It has already started, it started more than forty years ago with the followers of Islam attacking those not of Islam. It continues today but will get much worse, much more violent until not just thousands die, but millions die./Islam will be reduced to a few in caves and isolated places. Just like it started. But it will not be wiped out nor defeated. Those few left, those who still are true believers in Islam will start anew, will continue their quest and will grow once again in a few hundred years to begin again their quest for the domination of Islam over the world./So it is written, so it shall be...until the last Muslim is dead."
So you are happily predicting, not to say welcoming, the death of c 1,700,000,000 people, a quarter of the human race.
May I cordially recommend that you seek urgent professional help. [For yourself, not for the genocide.]
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# 165. At 4:09pm on 11 Sep 2010, chronophobe wrote:
""re: 160 Papa So it is written, so it shall be...until the last Muslim is dead."
And here we see that warm, love filled humility and respect for other faiths for which certain christians are so well known.
You must truly be inspired by the spirit of Jesus, brother."
Amen, Brother [Sister?] Chronophobe! Tell it like it is! ;-)
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#171 PickledPete [to MachoAutisticus]
"Or is your jingoism the typical ranting of the armchair warrior who has never confronted the reality of war himself?"
Yes
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# 191 LucyJ
"Actually, I have only too much logic, facts, proof, truth and decency."
Unfortunately, no you don't. The fact that you can't see this is sad, but still a fact. And your rightwing rants and fantasies are sub-Limbaugh - they are just as biased and devoid of facts as his - whether you pick them up from him or elsewhere in the rightwing media is beside the point
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# 139 Macho Autisticus II
"The war Islam has waged against the US at least in part goes back to at least 1948 when the US supported and championed the creaton of Israel. The USSR found it convenient to fan the flames of this war for its own purposes. The assassination of Bobby Kennedy by Sirhan Sirhan may have been part of that war."
Whilst I generally skim over Macho's endless, interminable, repetitive, preposterous, far-right, self-important, pompous, hate-and-bile-filled rants - this caught my eye.
"Sirhan Bishara Sirhan is a Christian Palestinian who was convicted for the assassination of United States Senator Robert F. Kennedy"
Still, MA has never been one to let the facts interfere with the prejudice - why expect him to start now?
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# 218 MachoAutisticusII
"There is no need to pay any attention to any of my opinions on anything or even to read them. If I were you I wouldn't."
Can it be true? After all those endless, interminable rants - MAII has actually got something right?
Still - they do say even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I guess, by the law of averages, something true was bound to slip in eventually. [Monkeys and typewriters and all that...]
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223. At 7:51pm on 11 Sep 2010, RHCracker wrote: [To Colon Artist]
"So those in the islamic religion are,in your words fighting against,mainstream America,and our ideals.
And you wonder why we oppose the mosque at ground zero"
It is as naive to assume self-appointed spokesmen like Colon speak for the world's 1.7 billion Muslims as it is to assume that certain extreme rightwing ranters here speak for all Americans - or indeed all Christians
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# 228 rightfieldbleachers wrote:
"Forums like these always bring out extremists. Extremists are less boring than moderates."
First sentence - agreed. But fortunately not only extremists.
Second sentence - I disagree. Extremists tend to just rant and ramble on predictably, churning out the same old stuff, impervious to argument or reason.
[Mind you - none of us ever thinks WE are the extremist - it's always the other guy......]
[PS sorry for the string of postings - I was out all day and am just catching up - then again, no one has to read 'em...]
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# 245. At 11:10pm on 11 Sep 2010, DiscontiNEWS wrote:
"Not only has Barack Obama elevated Pastor Jones, he has failed to support world feeling about the insensitivity of a 'cultural' centre in close proximity to Ground Zero."
As opposed to strip clubs "in close proximity to Ground Zero"? Or the existing mosque "in close proximity to Ground Zero"?
Obama said they had a legal right to build their cultural centre. He refrained from commenting on whether they should or shouldn't.
"world feeling about the insensitivity of a 'cultural' centre in close proximity to Ground Zero."
What evidence do you have that the 'world' shares your views on this matter? I have seen none.
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Most of us are sick of you Christians and Muslims, your pathetic little arguments get in the way of a common man living his life.
This whole episode is a media creation and if the Pastor was left to burn his "Korans" in front of his pathetic little congregation no one would have cared or noticed. But the western press cannot help themselves and the equally pathetic and hamstrung people who believe the Koran to be the Word end up buring bibles, flags and anything else in outrage.
I have no time for Christianity or no time for Islam. They are petty little religions that serve no good to man kind.
It's as simple as this: Grow up.
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Write a post, take a sip, write a post, take a sip, write a post, take a sip. 7 times in a row. Sheesh, can't you take a large enough gulp to finish a whole thought between them?
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Doubled over in Dublin;
" Extremists tend to just rant and ramble on predictably, churning out the same old stuff, impervious to argument or reason.
[Mind you - none of us ever thinks WE are the extremist - it's always the other guy......]
[PS sorry for the string of postings - I was out all day and am just catching up - then again, no one has to read 'em...]"
I could hardly have described you better myself. I read your postings because I'm reading a book on psychiatry and I was wondering what category your disorder fits into. Evidently I haven't gotten up to that chapter yet (the further you get into it, the more extreme and bizzare they become. At the last chapter the victim loses all connection with the real world and lives in one all of his own invention that exists only in his twisted demented mind. I'll let you know my diagnosis when I get to it.)
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For all of you i quote the song Papillion:
"if there really was a God here. He'd have played his hand by now..."
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194. At 6:13pm on 11 Sep 2010, jonnysmoggyparmo wrote:
@ MarcusAureliusII
“Your comments earlier on the Constitution are baffling - a system that would never possibly evolve should not be revered as evolutionary. Granted it can be changed by US politicians, but as they hold the same semi-sacred viewpoint as yourself, it's unlikely to react to situations very well.”
Pardon my intruding, but your comments baffle me. The US system has evolved, the constitution has been amended 27 times [see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution] and, like the UK “constitution” it has had changes not by formal amendment [see Marbury vs. Madison].
If you are British, your system is actually older, so I don’t quite understand your problem with the age of the US constitution. And Britons seem quite attached to their monarchy and other things.
Yes the Constitution is regarded as almost holy writ. It has been in force, and the present government has been continuous since 1789. In that time we went from a gaggle of relatively poor agricultural colonies to world power. We have managed to avoid cancelled elections, military coups, dictatorships and major challenges to our civil rights. Why would we want to copy a bizarre Franco-German system that gets progressively more statist and less democratic, especially as we have been evolving by fits and starts to more democratic?
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ref #243
So saying that Islaqmphobia is used by frauds like Rauf and the left to attack opponents is now against House Rules?
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It is as naive to assume self-appointed spokesmen like Colon speak for the world's 1.7 billion Muslims as it is to assume that certain extreme rightwing ranters here speak for all Americans - or indeed all Christians
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Prove it that I dont speak for 1.7 billion muslims. I have more muslim friends and family than you can ever dream of having..
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# 261 MachoAutisticusII
Macho
1. I just did a quick count. You were behind 13 of the first 100 postings here. Whether you were drinking before, after or during, I care not. Personally I drink little and rarely, but if you don't, I suggest you try it. Your turgid screeds couldn't get any worse.
2. Drinking and the Irish. How original. Truly, is there no beginning to your talents? We've already had your endless bigotry re the hateful Europeans and the uptight Brits. Why not throw in a few about mean Jews or African Americans who are great dancers to complete the set?
3. I need no lectures on you about thought or indeed anything else. You make Beck and Limbaugh look like thoughtful moderates, and Alf Garnett look like a liberal intellectual. [Possibly you haven't heard of him – the Yanks 'borrowed' him and turned him into Archie Bunker.]
4. Finally even if it is true that you volunteered for 'Nam and got turned down for 'fallen arches' – and I doubt it, as I tend to the view that every word you write is a lie, including 'a' and 'the' – then surely you didn't believe them when they gave you that excuse? I mean – granted, they took Calley, but they do have SOME standards.....
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This whole episode is a media creation and if the Pastor was left to burn his "Korans" in front of his pathetic little congregation no one would have cared or noticed.
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Yes. Just as you dont notice the people's sufferings whose countries have been made battlefields by your commander in chiefs.
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"So those in the islamic religion are,in your words fighting against,mainstream America,and our ideals.
And you wonder why we oppose the mosque at ground zero"
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Show me a post where I made you believe that I wonder why you oppose the mosque at zero ground..I dont even call it a mosque, and I dont even call it a ground zero...I just enjoy the hysetrical reaction of americans..generously reminding them that they do exactly the same things they graciously make fun of in muslim world..
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For all the many blaming the media for this story, another point of view here - http://www.salon.com/news/islam/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2010/09/10/terry_jones_koran_burn_timeline
Cogent points:
"Critics of the American media's coverage of the Quran-burning saga are loud and plentiful, and they have a strong case. In short, the U.S. media has given a global platform to a fringe pastor with a tiny flock, elevating him to a level of significance that would make most members of Congress jealous (whether or not he actually executes his plan). But those media critics are also missing the point.
To grasp the real story here, one has to understand the context in which Petraeus decided to weigh in: At that time, the Quran burning had already been treated as a major story in the media in the Muslim world for several weeks. In other words, since at least late July, when it started to get attention in some Muslim-majority countries, the story has been doing untold damage to America's reputation."
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I have no time for Christianity or no time for Islam. They are petty little religions that serve no good to man kind.
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And yet, here you are doing what you dont have time for...Allow me to tell you something, you are going to interfere in these petty religons,because its the modern and unreligious people who are at the forefront since 2001 in bringing religion into everything..Its your discourse for the past nine yrs that led the pastor to come up with this brilliant idea..Even taliban dont use religon when they fight against your brave soldiers, they use occupation as the reason..
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I'm afraid it's 6 or one and 3+3 of another as far as the "Pastor" and the 9/11 site mosque builders are concerned. They are equally insensitive and adamantine.
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The community center is going to be build for the local muslims..its they who have the problem of not having a decent place to pray and go and spend sometime, not the rest of usa, or the world...The pastor wanted to burn koran because he like millions of americans including their president,believe that islam, particularly koran that is the cause of 9/11..Their president doesnt want him to go ahead with koran burning as it will interefer in his occupation of the muslim countries..He didnt say he respted islam, he has done a Mccain when someone said obama is a muslim and he replied that he was a decent guy..
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152, Sasha Clarkson “What has happened since 1948 has radicalised Islam, or at least significant parts of it. We are faced with an enemy created by our own ignorance and lack of foresight”
Above simply ain’t true. Arab-Israeli conflict was just a very local conflict with international and inter-faith appeal. You can recall one Palestinian terrorist, George Habash, a most violent man was a Christian. Other international non-Islamic “terror-groups” like the Japanese Red Army Faction and Germany’s Baader Meinhof Group were allied with Palestinian terrorists. The Arab-Israeli conflict is very enticing for those needy for some excitement.
Since 1949, Turkey recognised Israel; in 1970, Jordan whacked the Palestinians; in 1973, Saudi Arabia and other Arabs dared to experiment with the ‘oil weapon’ and only just that one time and since then: never. In 1979, Egypt recognised Israel and so did Jordan in 1994. If you ask me, the Middle East Muslims were compromising and accommodating nicely.
The Muslim Brotherhood prioritises regime change in Muslim countries to more theocratic ones as counters to Western neo-colonialism and other corrupt Western practices. However, Al-Queda prefers and emphasises the reverse order: attack the sources, the Western Corrupter-Governments and the Islamic theocratic regimes will rise naturally. Now that we understand Obama’s ‘coded’ message in Mark’s report “he admired most about former President George W Bush was his insistence that America was not at war with Islam but with killers and terrorists.” It is not the West’s “own ignorance”, but its worldliness that has enemies. It is not West’s "lack of foresight" but overindulgence and over expectation of its Middle Eastern allies that embolden these same enemies.
Sasha Clarkson instead of letting your self-enlightenment lead to false self-loathing (presuming you are as Western as your nick) and, strangely, to pompous public display of self-assurance. Do give credit to your “enemy created” of having intelligence and independence, instead of being born out of wedlock due to “ignorance” and “lack of foresight”.
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Doubled over in Dublin #267;
Did I mention your name in my posting #261? No. It seems you may have a persecution complex. Maybe it's paranoia. Do you feel people are "out to get you?" Do you hear strange voices inside your head telling you to do things when nobody is around? That could be important. It might help me make a diagnosis.
"Truly, is there no beginning to your talents?"
Truly, is there no end to your tedium?
"Why not throw in a few about mean Jews or African Americans who are great dancers to complete the set?"
Besides the fact that I have no quarrel with them, I haven't noticed any pattern or culture that identifies them the way I have with Europeans. They seem very diverse, impossible to form any generalities about. BTW, like it or not, Brits are Europeans. Some of them seem to wish it weren't so.
"You make Beck and Limbaugh look like thoughtful moderates"
No surprise there. I've never denied that I'm to the right of Atilla the Hun. Compared to Atilla, Stalin was a wuss.
"I tend to the view that every word you write is a lie, including 'a' and 'the'"
I take that from where it comes, a place where the term "blarney" was coined.
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You can recall one Palestinian terrorist, George Habash, a most violent man was a Christian. Other international non-Islamic “terror-groups” like the Japanese Red Army Faction and Germany’s Baader Meinhof Group were allied with Palestinian terrorists. The Arab-Israeli conflict is very enticing for those needy for some excitement.
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Laila khalid from the famous mulitiple planes hijacking on sept 6 in 1970is also a christian palestinian, her partner half american half latin american, another woman hijacker Souhaila Andrawes also a christian palestinian...They were fighting against the occupation...which no longer is called occupation..Islamism in palestine occupied land, is given overfocus to make it into islam and terrorism, christian palestinians who fight are not even mentioned..Same is with this american occupation, where its occupation is not mentioned as if the countries they occupy have citizens who are just more islamic and most islamic and if they fight against occupation, its because they are fringe muslims..
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#164, #207 Sasha Clarkson on “Glubb”
Sasha, you “Glubb” often enough. I wonder if there are any lessons from the “Great Arab Conquests” which could have been applied to Iraqi Invasion and, if not too late, to Afghanistan. You are the expert on Glubb. It would be of a great help as you probably read the caliphates moved out of Arabian Peninsula to conquer and rule the Levant, Sassanid Persia, North Africa and Spain.
I have a Singaporean friend, whilst a conscript in the late 60s, was trained by Israelis from the IDF. One Israeli told him that some war lessons were gotten from Rabbinic literature and used by the IDF. Similarly we could learn something from Glubb.
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colonartist;
"Prove it that I dont speak for 1.7 billion muslims. I have more muslim friends and family than you can ever dream of having.."
Besides the fact that I've never had such a nightmare, it seems to me just keeping track of the names of 1.7 billion friends and family would be very hard...unless they all had the same name...like Mohammed. (I don't think they do.) Just imagine the difficulty in sending out Christmas cards to all of them. You'd have to start in April...oops I forgot they don't celebrate Christmas, whew that's a relief.
It seems to me some of them would prefer to speak for themselves.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11273771
"Speaking through an interpreter in French, the man told the court he could not remember his name or age"
Perhaps you could help him out there. He might be one of your friends or family. You have so many, more than I can ever dream of having. BTW, do you find that they come around asking for money? That's always seemed to me to be a problem when you have a lot of friends you've chosen indiscriminately.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
youdontsayso;
"Similarly we could learn something from Glubb."
It seems to me that there are some people, even some who post here whose inspiration comes not from Glubb but from "glug."
I heard on one of the news channels that there are an estimated 50,000 Irish in the US illegally. Unfortunately I don't think most of them are in Arizona so they will probably just remain melted into the vast faceless mass of people undiscovered and undeported. BTW, anyone read what Castro said about the French evicting the Roma?
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"Speaking through an interpreter in French, the man told the court he could not remember his name or age"
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First you tell your pastor, that the word is imam, and not iman...I dont know why no one has corrected him, he keeps on saying ImaN..that he want to meet the imaN or the imaN will now not build the center...Alternatively, someone should just present a person to him telling him, "pastor, this is the imaN, you want to meet".
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BTW, do you find that they come around asking for money? That's always seemed to me to be a problem when you have a lot of friends you've chosen indiscriminately.
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Some come and ask for money, other come and give me money...All in all, a perfect balance...
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@Mark Mardell.
Do you really read all these comments?
How do you get through 250+ posts of this kind of mindless garbage?
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How abuot a deal colonartist. Moslems put up their supermosque near ground zero and the Jews build a synagogue in Mecca. Now that seems like a fair exchange for me. Why not talk to some of your many friends in Saudi Arabia about it?
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colonartist;
"First you tell your pastor, that the word is imam, and not iman"
I don't have a pastor. I don't have a religion. I am not cursed by being a slave to anyone's theological dogma. Priests, imams, rabbis, ministers, they all mean nothing to me. Parasites who prey off the weak minded, that's how I see all of them.
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@ 267. John_From_Dublin, who wrote about #261 MachoAutisticusII,
John, Honey -
While I enjoyed your observations, I am afraid your method is ineffective against certain certain savage beasts. Logic will only annoy them and concise points will only incite them.
Perhaps if Obama mentioned that he should chill?
No. That probably wouldn't work, either.
Alas. We are left merely to sigh heavily and shake our weary heads.
______________________
BTW: It's Saturday and I'm very glad the so-called-man-of-God decided that insulting people is a bad idea for peaceful missional outreach. How terribly clever of him.
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#279, MarcusAureliusII
Seriously, I’ve some more to say
Re: #164, #207 Sasha Clarkson on “Glubb”
I see similarities in Caliphate Expansionism and USA & friends invading Afghanistan and Iraq. The Caliphate Arabs conquered other countries whose citizens had different religion, brought down the foreign governments and disseminate new political religious ideology, Islam, for indoctrination.
USA & friends did the first two but want to propagate their religion ‘friendly’ ideology, democracy.
Sasha might have hit the goldmine here. Quick bring out the Glubb, not just the club.
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To MarcusAureliusII #274
How would you describe yourself?
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# 262 MachoAutisticusII
"I read your postings because I'm reading a book on psychiatry and I was wondering what category your disorder fits into. Evidently I haven't gotten up to that chapter yet (the further you get into it, the more extreme and bizzare (sic) they become. At the last chapter the victim loses all connection with the real world and lives in one all of his own invention that exists only in his twisted demented mind. I'll let you know my diagnosis when I get to it.)"
Yawn.
Pot, kettle.
Did you reach the chapter about megalomaniacs who think they're Roman emperors, rant endlessly to people they hate about how much they hate them, write open open letters to their President, and rush around screaming 'the sky is falling, the sky is falling'?
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# 266 Colon
"Prove it that I dont (sic) speak for 1.7 billion muslims. I have more muslim friends and family than you can ever dream of having.."
Excuse me for introducing logic into a logic-free zone, but I have more Irish, or indeed British, friends and family than you can ever dream of having. That doesn't qualify me to speak on behalf of either Ireland or the UK. But since you're forever telling us what the US and/or the West really think, I can see where that's a concept you might have difficulty grasping.
But sure, Colon, sure. I'll prove that you don't speak for 1.7b Muslims. I'm just off to interview each one individually - like you did. I'll get back to you when I've finished.
Don't hold your breath.
Or do...
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# 274 MachoAutisticusII
"It seems you may have a persecution complex. Maybe it's paranoia. Do you feel people are "out to get you?" Do you hear strange voices inside your head telling you to do things when nobody is around?"
Yawn Vol II.
Once again - Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.
"I haven't noticed any pattern or culture that identifies them the way I have with Europeans. They seem very diverse, impossible to form any generalities about. BTW, like it or not, Brits are Europeans. Some of them seem to wish it weren't so."
So you're only racist with some races? Since of course hundreds of millions of Europeans are identical. That's OK then...
"I've never denied that I'm to the right of Atilla (sic) the Hun. Compared to Atilla (sic), Stalin was a wuss."
How could you deny what is clear from your rantings?
Interesting and revealing, the comparators you choose. The latter a paranoid megalomaniac.
The former a mass murderer. But at least he got on his horse and got involved in the battles.
He didn't sit at home calling for others to kill and die, whining about his fallen arches...
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# 285 Philly-Mom wrote:
"@ 267. John_From_Dublin, who wrote about #261 MachoAutisticusII,
John, Honey -
While I enjoyed your observations, I am afraid your method is ineffective against certain certain savage beasts. Logic will only annoy them and concise points will only incite them."
"Feely-Mom
I hate you! I hate you! You drink too much! And you smell of wee!!"
Sorry Philly - I don't mean that, of course. I enjoyed your posting, and found it very apposite.
I just thought I'd save MAII the bother of replying ;-)
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Mark, you ask if Obama 'elevated' the Florida pastor? The elevation process from a small local event to something that presidents feel obliged to comment on is charted in the BBC article “How Koran burning story grew from obscurity”. The first step was the use of social media (Facebook and YouTube), but there was no strong reaction to that. Then the media stepped in, the Religion News Service , followed by CNN and then the BBC. This did start to provoke a reaction, so the news media had successfully spread a local story to a broader level. Was this act proportional to the importance of the story, or was it simply to improve circulation through a provocative piece of news? Anyway, the news of this local event is now accessible world wide and is being leveraged by people for their own ends, and now the protests and violence starts. The next stage is the political elevation, where Presidents starts to mention this. The BBC quotes Hamid Karzai, Barack Obama, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, Goodluck Jonathan and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and there are suggestions of a threat to world peace. I ask myself why statesmen are wasting time on this given the insignificance of the origins of this story.
I think the first credit for elevation goes to the news media, which set the ball rolling and turned this in to news by igniting an all too predictable violent reaction. At this stage politicians get involved. You can question their wisdom but their choices are limited and the news media’s continued reporting makes it more difficult to ignore. Of course, everyone involved needs to question whether or not their response was proportional to the event. I don’t believe it was and feel they should have all ignored it.
Personally am concerned that burning a book, any book, should be viewed with such importance. Interestingly the BBC quote of Afghan President Hamid Karzai captures both aspects. Firstly, “By burning the Koran, they cannot harm it. The Koran is in the hearts and minds of 1.5 billion people. “. Yes, this captures the concept of the core of a faith and raises it above quite trivial provocations. Then he goes on to say, “Humiliation of the holy book represents the humiliation of people”. No, you have just said burning the book cannot harm the Koran that is in the hearts and minds of 1.5 billion people. So where is the humiliation, surely your hearts and minds are stronger than that?
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On the subject of Qur'ans, the King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur'an produces about 10,000,000 copies per year. There must be hundreds of thousands produced elsewhere as well.
There are suggestions that over 60,000,000 Holy Bibles are printed each year around the world.
This seems excessive when companies are urging me to have my share dividends paid directly into my account in order to save paper, and save the world.
So I am doing my bit. Isn't it time that the mass reproduction of the Word of God(s) was scaled down a bit?
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"I remember a time not too long ago when the US Government's National Endowment for the Arts paid an "artist" to display a crucifix in a bottle of urine in a New York museum. None of the people objecting to the Quran burning objected to that. That was art.
I guess the message is we respect religions of violent people and disrespect the religions of non-violent people."
That 'piece of art' was called "Piss Christ".
And it was not the only one of that kind.
BTW. Isn't it strange that no Western artist ever attempted to create, and no Western musemum evere dared to display an object of a similar nature but directed at Allah, or even Mohomet?
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By the way, I have calculated that by the year 2050, if the current rate of Bible and Qu'ran printing continues and you piled them all up one on top of the other, they would reach right up to heaven.
And if tit-for-tat Qu'ran burning and Bible burning got out of hand, we should all be suffocated in no time at all.
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"Where is your evidence for this statement regarding the general feelings of the electorate? How do you know what the majority of American people want?"
According to the most recent poll conducted jointly by ABC and Washington Post "two thirds of Americans object to building a mosque near ground zero".
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"@216 Powermeerkat: The truth without the whole truth is of no value - and it's a bit rich coming from a successor of those Christians who invaded another land, committing genocide and ethnic cleansing to steal it from the indigenous population. Even if your ancestors weren't personally involved you have still received stolen goods, so a bit less faux moral indignation?"
Sorry, but my ancestors hail from a country invaded by Muslims more than once. And who stopped Muslim invasion of Europe on 9/11.
1689. Sorry 'bout that.
And I was born in a colony exploited by a tax&spend kingdom referred to by some as perfidious Albion.
So nice try, but no cigar.
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Re "who benefitted from the Crusades"
1393 AD Bulgaria conquered by Muslims.
1453 AD Constantinople conquered by Muslims.
1460 AD Greece conquered by Muslims.
1521 AD Belgrade conquered by Muslims.
I was not aware that Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs participated in Crusades or ever benefitted from them directly or indirectly.
Nor was I aware that Chechens, Dagestani, Ingush, Kabardins, Ossetians, etc., now under direct threat from radical Islam which wants to create a Caliphate of Northern Caucasus - ever have.
Any evidence, instead of Islamist propaganda, for a change?
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Re #235 referencing #216
"1492: Cattholic army expels Moors from Granada city (where Columbus, co-incidentally, gets the contract to discover what will become America)."
Columbus never discovered America.
[If anybody - Leif Eriksson did 300 years earlier]
Columbus hasn't even got to America.
He landed in Haiti -of all places.
Never made it even to S. Florida; something thousands of refugees from Castro Bros.' Cuba manage to do. Every year.
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"1614: ethnic cleansing pretty much completed.
History does seem to repeat itself."
Are you referring to France and Italy expelling Roma people en mass?
And Hungary, Romania and Slovakia trying to get rid of them any which way they can?
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Re #237 "Daniel Luban, a doctoral candidate at the University of Chicago, offers in a recent paper that many of the core assumptions of "Islamophobia" in the US spring from Europe. "While the political operatives behind the anti-mosque campaign speak the language of nativism and American exceptionalism, their ideology is itself something of a European import. Most of the tropes of the American 'anti-jihadists,' as they call themselves, are taken from European models."
The most recent book by Thilo Sarrazin about a Muslim threat to a complecent leading EUSSR country -is being sold in record numbers in Germany, despite official, PC-based criticism.
[Sarrazin being a Social Democrat, and an SPD member, to boot]
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Re #131: Lupe101 wrote:
I just deleted the Koran from my I-Pad... get with the times people.
Watch it! You may yet be forced to press a 'reload' button.
Or lose your CPU [head].
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@276 Sasha, you “Glubb” often enough
Fraid so. I was researching (for private pleasure) the history of mathematics, when I got sidetracked into the History of the Arabs.
The politicians should certainly have read Glubb before invading Iraq. I'm sure the Foreign Office advisors had done so, but their advice was ignored. Iraq was formed out of the debris of the Ottoman Empire in WWI. Glubb, a survivor of the battle of the Somme, was there at the beginning, firstly as a sapper, then as an RAF intelligence officer. He became fluent in Arabic, spending time both with the Shia marsh Arabs, and the Sunni Bedouin. He wrote in great detail about his experiences, and the background to the problems and perpetual tribal, ethnic and religious tensions.
From my reading of all this (and yes I mean ALL), I concluded that it might have been better for its people if Iraq as a state had never been created. Certainly, for the Bush administration to invade without a careful plan for "winning the peace" was very foolish. Saddam's regime was evil, but there was never any guarantee that invading would not make the world less rather than more secure.
In later life, as a respected and distinguished historian, Glubb said: "Wars never end wars. Every war on the contrary gives rise to more wars and more violence, hatred and revenge."
A thought from Ecclesiastes: "In much wisdom there is much grief. He that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow." That's my final word on this thread. Those who want to understand rather than score petty points should do the research themselves.
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"Glubb, a survivor of the battle of the Somme"
Many participants in that battle have had their brains damaged by chemical weapons. ([somman gas being one of them]
A matter of a well documented public record.
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Ref 301, powermeerkat
"[Sarrazin being a Social Democrat, and an SPD member, to boot]"
Pastor Jones' church is in Gainesville, a city that like most of North Florida is a Republican, Tea Party, evangelical Christian stronghold, but Islamophoia is definitely not limited to conservatives. That sentiment is evident throughout the USA and the Western world and it has no political or religious ideological boundaries.
You are as likely to find anti-Islamic sentiment in a Catholic community as you are in a Protestant or Jewish community, and you will find it in areas that lean Republican and in those that lean Democrat.
Rejection of Islam in the Western world is not new, it has been around for centuries and it has been influenced by religious intolerance, fear, ignorance, cultural differences, historical events, and rejection of anything that does not conform with the norm; but make no mistake the intensity of Islamophobia that exists in the USA today is due strictly to 9/11.
While we all understand that we were attacked by a terrorist group rather than a nation, we also know that all the terrorists that attacked us were Muslims, that the leaders, masterminds and financiers of that vicious attack are Muslims, that many Muslims rejoiced when the attack took place, and that a fatwah against our country and Western values and interests remains in place.
The fact that those that pretend to be moderate Muslims insist on building an Islamic center two blocks from Ground Zero does not help matters. Most of us, for better or worse, see it as an unnecessary provocation, an in your face attitude that demonstrate contempt, disrespect and a level of insensitivity that almost seems designed to fuel discord rather than the peaceful understanding they are - allegedly - seeking.
I don't feel any animosity towards American Muslims, but their approach to religious and cultural reconciliation is as obtuse as the approach taken by illegal immigrants when they marched through our streets holding sayings that read "Yes We Can". Quite frankly, even those of us who prefer peaceful solutions and compromise to violent means have trouble accepting the arrogance and insensitivity of those who say they want to be part of mainstream America but do everything they can to alienate themselves from the rest of us.
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"While we all understand that we were attacked by a terrorist group rather than a nation, we also know that all the terrorists that attacked us were Muslims, that the leaders, masterminds and financiers of that vicious attack are Muslims, that many Muslims rejoiced when the attack took place, and that a fatwah against our country and Western values and interests remains in place."
Saint Dominick, perhaps it would be worth poing out to the posters from Europe and elsewhere that 9/11 was merely a SECOND bombing attack on the WTC.
[the first was conducted with explosive-loaded trucks parked in WTC's underground garages.]
And that the aerial attack on NYC was to be repeated (mutatis mutandis) in Los Angeles about a year later.
[A cooperation under Homeland Security Act prevented that.]
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Sorry...
I've just read an another article about Terry and his band of merrymen swinging pistols from thier hips, inside their "house of god" no less.
Im confused - Christians carrying guns? Threatening to burn Qur'ans in the name of free speech?
Im no expert, but in my humble opinion, I think some are taking a few liberties from the consitution mixing black and white to make their own shade of Grey.
Truly shocking-Im not religious at all but im fairly confident "God" wouldn't like whats goin on over in pastor Jones' place.
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BTW: It's Saturday and I'm very glad the so-called-man-of-God decided that insulting people is a bad idea for peaceful missional outreach. How terribly clever of him.
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And now, what? He and the rest of 70 plus % americans will demand the community center be not built? That imam Rauf be as clever as this pastor who doesnt even know whether the person building the community center is an imam or an iman, and not build the center?
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How abuot a deal colonartist. Moslems put up their supermosque near ground zero and the Jews build a synagogue in Mecca. Now that seems like a fair exchange for me. Why not talk to some of your many friends in Saudi Arabia about it?
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I thought you werent a religous person, why all of a sudden interested in building prayer strucutrees for the religious? Or are you a, christian-non religious?
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". . . and the Jews build a synagogue in Mecca. "
The Saudis make it perfectly clear that anyone wanting to live/work there must do so by their system - which does not include much tolerance of any other religion or race or customs. Isn't the American way supposed to be better than this?
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Doubled over in Dublin;
"Yawn.
Pot, kettle."
So you want to be a cook and you think you can do it in you sleep? The Irish are hardly known for their cullinary talents but then they aren't the British are they. Are they? Well only partly...in the north of Ireland.
Here's a song with an interesting reciope for Irish stew you might try;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxuLAuVc4qQ
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MAII
"but then they aren't the British are they. Are they? Well only partly...in the north of Ireland." -
Kindly elaborate..
Ive been readin these posts and you seem to spreading yourself a little too thinly, coming off the point and entering into other areas you seem to know little or nothing about
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While I have a lot of respect to the American contribution to the world, I still think that the americans have little self criticism. America is not the cradle of religious tolerism. America was founded and developed by fairly hard thinking protestants. These had the advantage over their European compatriots to start developing an empty country. After the Indians and their religions were slowly destroyed and no one was left to challenge the newcomers these then slowly developed a fairly false idea that their view of the world is the only right one, since obviously there was no one else on the continent to challenge it.
This now continues to show on how americans are lecturing everyone in the world about human rights etc. You cannot criticise others, if you yourself have a poor record and most immportantly did not experience wide scale wars etc. on your own land.
For example the Roma issue. Some criticise the handling of the Roma in Europe, but do not understand what they are talking about. The fact is that the social benefits and care that the Roma receive are unparalleled in the world. In some states the Roma receive new housing every year even if the previous one was destroyed. I cannot imagine going to the United States and getting a free house without a mortgage, and salary style benefits. If indeed Islamophobia is from Europe than it is because Europe experienced Muslim rule whereas the USA did not.
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257. At 11:58pm on 11 Sep 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:
223. At 7:51pm on 11 Sep 2010, RHCracker wrote: [To Colon Artist]
"So those in the islamic religion are,in your words fighting against,mainstream America,and our ideals.
And you wonder why we oppose the mosque at ground zero"
It is as naive to assume self-appointed spokesmen like Colon speak for the world's 1.7 billion Muslims as it is to assume that certain extreme rightwing ranters here speak for all Americans - or indeed all Christians
J.F.D;
you are correct it would be naive to assume the colonel is the spokesman of all muslims,I was merely pointing out that in most of his posts he says muslims in America are peaceful and just want to live in America as Americans,and in the post I mentioned says that all in the muslim religion are fighting against mainstream America.
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Ref 310, Zeno
"The Saudis make it perfectly clear that anyone wanting to live/work there must do so by their system"
In all fairness, I doubt Muslims would be allowed to build a Mosque in the Vatican, in an aisle in St. Patrick's Cathedral, adjacent to a Mormon or a Protestant Church in the USA. What is being proposed is to build an Islamic Cultural Center two blocks away from Ground Zero, which is different from building one in a religious center equivalent to Mecca.
As I pointed out in my earlier post, the decision to build that Center so close to a place that we - all Americans - consider a symbol of what radicalism and bigotry can do to their fellow man is a deliberate provocation designed to fuel passions and elicit responses to reinforce perceptions and prolong the climate of instability and hatred that has dominated world affairs for almost a decade.
In effect, it appears to be a deliberate attempt to maintain the status quo rather than the alleged goal of promoting cultural understanding and reconciliation. If the intention is to improve Christian, Jewish and Islamic relations in the USA I can think of many places where that Cultural Center could be built without inflaming passions and creating controversy.
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Zeus;
"but then they aren't the British are they. Are they? Well only partly...in the north of Ireland." -
Kindly elaborate.."
Must I teach Europeans everything? Northern Ireland whose Capital is Belfast and whose population is in the majority Protestant but has a large percentage of Catholics is part of the United Kingdom which is made up of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (there is a distinction although most people like me use the terms UK and GB interchangeably even though it is technically incorrect.) In fact it is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom
Much of its Protestant population probably considers itself I think to be part of Great Britain or at least has a strong affinity towards it. The Republic of Ireland only became independent from Great Britain around 1917 and was previously occupied and ruled by it for about four hundred years. Now it is ruled by the Vatican as has been clearly demonstrated recently by the fact that the civil authorities are powerless to prosecute criminals employed by the Catholic Church including priests who are alleged to have abused children on a massive scale.
It is of course part of Europe's constant ironies and irrational contradictions that Ireland fought desperately for so long to free itself from Britain only to voluntarily engage itself in a process that will reunite them in the utopian Valhalla under the government of the EU superstate.
"you seem to spreading yourself a little too thinly, coming off the point and entering into other areas you seem to know little or nothing about"
Then I strongly suggest that you skip over them and don't read them. However your knowledge seems to have at least some gaps in it by the fact that you admittedly don't know the connection between Ireland and Great Britain either historically or culturally. Most citizens of either of them aren't worth a damn in the kitchen. Boild beef, Boiled cabbage and corned beef. What an unpalatable bland mess.
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Zemo's Paradox;
"The Saudis make it perfectly clear that anyone wanting to live/work there must do so by their system - which does not include much tolerance of any other religion or race or customs. Isn't the American way supposed to be better than this?"
Why should it be? Why should Moslems expect that in their nation which is the home of Islam, those not of the mainstream religion Islam should be treated one way and those of other religions have far greater restrictions imposed on them but in other natiions where they are not the mainstream they should be treated equally to the mainstream? They demand two sets of rules, one for themselves and a different one for everyone else depending on where they are. What hypocricy. I think this in part is what the protests against the mosque in New York City are about.
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The pastor proved the A.C.L.U. is bias in there protection of free speech.
He proved we are willing to negotiate with terrorists,as it did not take long for Petreaus ,and Obama to make sure he did not go through with the burning as the terrorists demanded.
He proved that islam is a violent religion,like I said he was going to burn books,they are made of paper and printed by man,yet those in the muslim religion planned to kill innocent people around the world if he went through with the burning.
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The fact that those that pretend to be moderate Muslims insist on building an Islamic center two blocks from Ground Zero does not help matters.
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The fact is the so called democracy likers, and lovers, the civil rights supporters fail to see the needs of local muslim americans to have a community center that will cater to their needs in their own neighbourhood..Its stupidity to even demand that some people will be forced to go to far off places, to other neighbourhoods for some services..I being a muslim, always prefer to go to a local mosque, being a human prefer to go local bus stop, local community center, local shops and local cafes, than to go to a mosque that is not located in my neighbourhood, or to a bus stop thats 15 minutes walk, or a community center which is half an hour's drive away...Everyone likes to have services closer to where they live..The president, Mr obama has his office inside the building he dwells in..they have a lots of lots of green area, so that they dont have to go anywhere for a quick stroll in the park, he has all his services, even helicopter landing area inside his home grounds..why cannot the muslim of lower manhatten enjoy some of the facilities in their own neighbourhood.
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As I pointed out in my earlier post, the decision to build that Center so close to a place that we - all Americans - consider a symbol of what radicalism and bigotry can do to their fellow man is a deliberate provocation designed to fuel passions and elicit responses to reinforce perceptions and prolong the climate of instability and hatred that has dominated world affairs for almost a decade.
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Then, ban the praying places at your airports..afterall it was from the airport the planes were hijacked..
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America are peaceful and just want to live in America as Americans,and in the post I mentioned says that all in the muslim religion are fighting against mainstream America.
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Yes. both are correct.
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In all fairness, I doubt Muslims would be allowed to build a Mosque in the Vatican,
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Muslims are not allowed to build their homes in a certain entity, which usa consider's as its siamese twin,let alone mosques...No wonder to be against coummunity center is so important to the american because if they dont do it, they would stop being the siamese twin of their twin.
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They demand two sets of rules, one for themselves and a different one for everyone else depending on where they are. What hypocricy. I think this in part is what the protests against the mosque in New York City are about.
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Actually its you who have two sets of rules, one for yourself and the others for the muslims of manhatten..I bet you would not even bother to go to cast a vote if you had to drive for half an hour on a busy road, the polling station in the middle of some ghetto, and here you are, demanding that since the area where the late world trade center stood, the muslims of that area have no rights to build a community center?
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The pastor proved the A.C.L.U. is bias in there protection of free speech.
He proved we are willing to negotiate with terrorists,as it did not take long for Petreaus ,and Obama to make sure he did not go through with the burning as the terrorists demanded.
He proved that islam is a violent religion,like I said he was going to burn books,they are made of paper and printed by man,yet those in the muslim religion planned to kill innocent people around the world if he went through with the burning.
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Atlast! the whites in usa have their own martin luther king...
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It's a funny thing about hallowed ground and shrines. People have a strange emotional attachment for them. Some of them have historical or cultural signifigance like the battlefield at Gettysburg or Elvis Presley's house. I thought it rather strange that when proposals were being considered for replacing the World Trade Center towers with new buildings, the precise footprint where the two towers stood was off limits to the architects because this was "hallowed ground." Although this is some of the most valuable real estate in the world it was agreed to. The ground itself has become somewhat of a shrine. It was the place where America had been attacked by outsiders on its own soil for the first time in nearly two hundred years (Hawaii was not a state when Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese.) And so this is a place of almost religious devotion to many Americans. Irrational and not protected by any law from any development, this seems to be the sentiment not only of the local community in New York City but of much of the nation. This is why a symbol of the religion in whose name the attack was carried out is opposed by 75% to 80% of the American people. American law does not protect symbols no matter what they stand for or how much meaning they have for some people. It is legal but those who would build a mosque there as with those who would burn Korans, another symbol in Florida are taking a big gamble which will likely incite violence. It is unlikely that either can be stopped, it isn't clear that they should be, but what is clear is that there will probably be people dead one way or another as a result of either or both of them.
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This is why a symbol of the religion in whose name the attack was carried out is opposed by 75% to 80% of the American people. American law does not protect symbols no matter what they stand for or how much meaning they have for some people.
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Allow me to enlighten you, american law seems to protect symbols,the ground zero, otherwise the hallowed ground and to preserve its memory wasnt a big deal...Community center is not a symbol, neither is a mosque, communty center caters to the social needs and mosques, the religous needs..Stop using late twin towers as an excuse to discriminate the muslims of lower manhatten, Americans have already used the dead of twin towers as an excuse for occupation and harrassment of muslims outside usa, now they want to use the building to harrass the local muslim population..Move on..sept 11 2001 should have been one of the dates for you. Looks like they need community psychiatrists in every neighbourhood to help them heal the process..
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MarcusAureliusII #325.
"American law does not protect symbols no matter what they stand for or how much meaning they have for some people."
apparently though, many US politicians are very unhappy about this.
Flag Desecration Amendment (1990, 1995, 1997, 1999-2000, 2001, 2003, 2005-2006)
do you think that they'll get their way in the end?
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The Saudis make it perfectly clear that anyone wanting to live/work there must do so by their system - which does not include much tolerance of any other religion or race or customs.
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What Christians or other/no religions would want to live in Saudi Arabia, anyway, when there are so many other wonderful places in the world to live where you do not have to follow Islamic laws?
There is a reason why we don't all flock there.
Islamic laws combined with hot weather/desert sands.
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Boild beef, Boiled cabbage and corned beef. What an unpalatable bland mess.
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I love the Irish, as I am related to them and know theres lots of people there with the same last name as me. I could even be related to John, although that is probably not likely. But you never really know who you are related to, just that your ancestors originated there, so are related to some there. We have corned beef, Irish soda bread and cabbage two or three times a year and it really is delicious and hearty. Love
the Irish blessings, food, beer and spirits...
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Its stupidity to even demand that some people will be forced to go to far off places, to other neighbourhoods for some services..I being a muslim, always prefer to go to a local mosque
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I am not from the city, but even I know that you cannot fit everything you want everywhere you want. People are fighting for space and you can only build on top of other buildings so much. In the city, you can't get everything that want, especially space wise, so you have to take what you can get. There are many religions and I'm sure many have to travel some ways for their religious center, as NYC is just so beyond, beyond gigantic. So having to travel for religion or work in a giant city like NYC is completely normal for many and just a part of life.
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No wonder to be against coummunity center is so important to the american because if they dont do it, they would stop being the siamese twin of their twin.
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USA has lots and lots of allies and friends, but we do not have a siamese twin. USA is very unique and no other country is exactly like us-location, resources, culture, history, etc.
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I would say, Invite him for light beer and banter at the white house. Oh, yeah, and a smoke.
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It's a funny thing about hallowed ground and shrines. People have a strange emotional attachment for them.
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When I visit hallowed ground and shrines, I can picture and imagine in my mind's eye what could have possibly happened on that very spot. It is almost a spiritual feeling in some sense. There is something special about being in the place where such historic and such events happened. Visiting such places is like I am paying my respects. Many want to keep these places preserved for future generations, so the knowledge can live on. It also makes history feel real when you visit such places, like yeah, this actually did happen.
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I am not from the city, but even I know that you cannot fit everything you want everywhere you want. People are fighting for space and you can only build on top of other buildings so much. In the city, you can't get everything that want, especially space wise, so you have to take what you can get. There are many religions and I'm sure many have to travel some ways for their religious center, as NYC is just so beyond, beyond gigantic. So having to travel for religion or work in a giant city like NYC is completely normal for many and just a part of life.
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They have been praying in a basement of some G-d forsaken building, now they have a chance to build something of their own in their own neighbourhood, and they have a right..The anti comunnity centerists are willing to sacrifice the rights of the living for the memory of the dead and the late building structure..Thats pathetic, especially when its happening a country that gives the muslims 24/7 headaches about their civil rights and liberty and the whole package.
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There is something special about being in the place where such historic and such events happened.
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Allow me to decipher, you never been there before sept 2001..You have seem to be extremists when it comes to imagnination...Which is a good thing, because you really dont need the visual image to remind you to torture yourself emotionally, you can sitting in your classroom, can imagine how it was like, once you start thinking like that, your feelings wont let you down..
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Re Obama 'elevating' pastor, and news-cycle dependent media frenzy...
About a year ago a Quran was burned (for a similar reason) by another minute congregation; in Topeka, Kansas.
The stunt passed almost completely unnoticed and there were no repercussions.
Which just shows you what's going on right now.
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Re Obama 'elevating' pastor, and news-cycle dependent media frenzy...
About a year ago a Quran was burned (for a similar reason) by another minute congregation; in Topeka, Kansas.
The stunt passed almost completely unnoticed and there were no repercussions.
Which just shows you what's going on right now.
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And what if muslims had protested of this burning, they would be doing those things in their own countries..they have a right to protest and speak freely at the top of their voice, if they want to, in their own countries..Mr Obama the politician and the chief of the forgein policy would have a tough time with the occupation and sending drones and getting cooperation from his puppet governments..Ergo, he had to first elevate the pastor, and then delevate him..The elevation was mutual between the pastor and Mr Obama..
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About a year ago a Quran was burned (for a similar reason) by another minute congregation; in Topeka, Kansas.
The stunt passed almost completely unnoticed and there were no repercussions.
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Forget that episode, the two wars and the drones are passing completely unnoticed due to the self censcorship of the media..americans really believe that people who are occupied have no better things to do than to fight in the name of koran..Americans, even those who claim to be non religous, are worse than ben laden...If he was acting in the name of koran alone, he would have attacked the churches and not the pentagon or the financial buildings...And here are americans, comfortably going after the religious sights of muslims..Mosques, a place of worship has all of a sudden become a symbol of terrorism..
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And while we're on the subject of religious extremism and the dangers it poses to Americans, here's another sample from the Church of the Second Amendment Adventist:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11274481
Beats the crap out of Osama bin Ladin when it comes to causing suffering in America - this fundamentalist religion kills well over 10,000 Americans every year.
Bet you Stanley Neace's friends, family, and neighbours are really glad his Constitutional rights were so well protected.
Because, hey, not only was he able to protect himself against burglars, but also against having to put up with cold eggs.
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Many want to keep these places preserved for future generations, so the knowledge can live on. It also makes history feel real when you visit such places, like yeah, this actually did happen.
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Yes, sure thats why they have shrines all over in newyork and the rest of the country is one big shrine for the red indians to pay their homeage..And thats why they forced their puppet government in iraq to quickly re-do the whole abu gharaib prison so that iraqis who have been tortured there, and rest of the iraqis could pay their homeage there...
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colonartist #326;
Allow me to enlighten YOU, I said the ground was a symbol, not the mosque. That is what is not protected by American law, the ground. However, the strong outcry against it suggests it will be an act of insult and antagonism to many Americans for its entire existance and a target for those in the lunatic fringe looking for ways to demonstrate their contempt violently.
For members of a religion with so many apologists for countless acts of wanton mass murder, Moslems certainly take offense easily at any insult or slight to their religion. One more example of their double standard which will have to be tempered if they are to be fully integrated into the American cultural mainstream. I for one have no sympathy for them or for any other religion.
jr.
"apparently though, many US politicians are very unhappy about this.
Flag Desecration Amendment (1990, 1995, 1997, 1999-2000, 2001, 2003, 2005-2006)
do you think that they'll get their way in the end?"
I certainly hope not. It would dilute the guarantee of freedom of speech and elevate a symbol far beyond what it should mean. Ironically, the only legal way to dispose of a worn out American flag is to burn it. I wonder if that would stand up in court. I don't know if it's ever been tested. It shouldn't stand up.
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"About a year ago a Quran was burned (for a similar reason) by another minute congregation; in Topeka, Kansas.
The stunt passed almost completely unnoticed and there were no repercussions."
The more they react to it, the more incentive there will be for those who want to antagonize them to do it and publicize it as widely as possible. They can dish it out but they sure can't take it. That will have to change too.
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I sometimes wish this Clash of Civilisations would get a move on so that we can sort out this issue once and for all time before the other side gets their act (and advanced weaponry) together.
To think that this clash is not going to happen (or, rather, hasn't already started) is wishful-thinking or self-delusional.
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For members of a religion with so many apologists for countless acts of wanton mass murder, Moslems certainly take offense easily at any insult or slight to their religion. One more example of their double standard which will have to be tempered if they are to be fully integrated into the American cultural mainstream. I for one have no sympathy for them or for any other religion.
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Genius, they are integrated, go to lower manhatten and talk to these muslims. If they had not been integrated they would not have wanted a community center in their own neighbourhood..Define what american mainstream is and then accuse them for not being of mainstream..People who are egoist at a level of 2 yr old toddler are only concerned with themselves, they will have all the comforts within a radious of 0 meter but will quite generously tell the others to travel 100 kms away in search of comforts..
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The more they react to it, the more incentive there will be for those who want to antagonize them to do it and publicize it as widely as possible.
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Are american humans or reptiles, who react in a knee jerk manner..pork a snake on its tail with the stick and it will jerk towards its tail, step on its neck and it will just move its head,
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BERLIN (AP) -- A leading German banker whose remarks stereotyping Muslims and Jews have sparked outrage launched his new book on immigration issues Monday amid calls for his removal from the central bank's board.
http://www.salon.com/wires/techbiz/2010/08/30/D9HTSP100_eu_germany_banker/index.html
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The anti community centerists would love to read his book...Pastor, Sarrazin and blair, Mr obama..on a scale of extemism from most to less..
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"Genius, they are integrated, go to lower manhatten and talk to these muslims. If they had not been integrated they would not have wanted a community center in their own neighbourhood."
Have you ever been to the area near the world trade center? I have a been countless times, I'm a native New Yorker. It is not their neighborhood. It is not anyone's neighborhood. All that's down there are office buildings. At night after everyone has left work and on weekends it's deader than a graveyard.
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MAII
You dont need to teach me anything, I live in Belfast and have my entire life. Your just a mouth piece can't even get the basic facts right.
Going forward however Ill gladly skip reading your posts/rants.
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Have you ever been to the area near the world trade center? I have a been countless times, I'm a native New Yorker. It is not their neighborhood. It is not anyone's neighborhood. All that's down there are office buildings. At night after everyone has left work and on weekends it's deader than a graveyard.
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Dead it is...that one i will have to agree with you, because whenever I tell that newyork or that area becomes dead in the evening, people dont believe me...However, its their neighbourhood..if you live nearby, consider yourself lucky, another community center all free for you to choose from..
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336. At 5:55pm on 12 Sep 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:
"...Church of the Second Amendment Adventist:"
That's pretty funny.
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Zeus;
"You dont need to teach me anything, I live in Belfast"
That seems to be the attitude of most people I've encounterd both in person and on the internet who are from Northern Ireland. What do you do during the marching season, march, cheer, or cringe? How many walls are there separating your "community" from the bad guys who live just around the corner on the next block?
BTW, someone (not me) needs to teach you the proper use of an apostrophe.
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@ JMM
I loved the Dead. Or is there something else that my name reminds you of?
Funny how if you disagree with a liberal, they name-call or insult you, call you uneducated, or pin it on racism or Fox or some other assumed influence.
Turn that finger around. On the contrary, you’re the one being used by radical Muslims. In the future, it’s possible you’ll wish you were back fighting conservative Christians again, instead of fighting for your freedom to insult.
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#345
"You dont need to teach me anything, I live in Belfast and have my entire life. Your just a mouth piece can't even get the basic facts right."
If you ever decide to read anything he posts ever again, or study his post history you'll find this is an everyday occurrence, particularly with regard to the UK. In fact, given the regularity with which he posts about a country he has never been to, never will go to, and about which he constantly makes factual errors, you would think he would have learned not to post about the place. But no. Why he now decides to add Ireland to the list of places he has a first graders knowledge about, only he can tell you.
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"Dead it is...that one i will have to agree with you, because whenever I tell that newyork or that area becomes dead in the evening, people dont believe me...However, its their neighbourhood..if you live nearby, consider yourself lucky, another community center all free for you to choose from.."
The nearest residential areas to that part of Manhattan are some converted loft buildings on the lower west side around West Broadway and the lower part of Chinatown on the east side south of Canal Street. In New York City terms, they are both a world away. I don't know of any concentrations of Moslems in either of those areas that would lead anyone to conclude that it is "their neighborhood" anymore than it is anyone elses. It's an outrageous suggestion. It belongs to everyone in general an no one in particular.
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#315, SaintDominick:"In all fairness, I doubt Muslims would be allowed to build a Mosque . . . .adjacent to a Mormon or a Protestant Church in the USA."
Why not? Would that be against the constitution?
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How can one say there is no justice in this world when,
MarcusAurelius has met Colonelartist...
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The nearest residential areas to that part of Manhattan are some converted loft buildings on the lower west side around West Broadway and the lower part of Chinatown on the east side south of Canal Street. In New York City terms, they are both a world away. I don't know of any concentrations of Moslems in either of those areas that would lead anyone to conclude that it is "their neighborhood" anymore than it is anyone elses. It's an outrageous suggestion. It belongs to everyone in general an no one in particular.
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Trying to redraw the boundries? its convient for the muslims, its all about location, location location, and they got one, after so many years...very sentral for people like me as well...another tourist attraction...
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colonartist;
"Trying to redraw the boundries? its convient for the muslims, its all about location, location location"
I'll bet that's also what they said when they conquered Europe.
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All the Obama haters should stop watching him on TV if he makes you so §oo angry.
I never ever bother to give Bush, Palin and Co. any of my time at all at all..
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I'll bet that's also what they said when they conquered Europe.
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Not in europe, but there was another stateless prince looking for a state who conqurered india and his dynasity ruled it for century, said something like that when he came down from the mountains and before him was low hills and planes...the place he stood and admired the scene, translated in english, is called "wow"..If muslims are meant to conqurer usa, then they will..but it wont happen in your life time..so sit back , enjoy and relax..Life is not easy to live, why add anxiety and phobias..
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#315, SaintDominick:"In all fairness, I doubt Muslims would be allowed to build a Mosque . . . .adjacent to a Mormon or a Protestant Church in the USA."
Would Mormons or Protestants be allowed to build a Church adjacent to an Islamic cultural centre?
Apologies for being persistent on this point - but I'm just trying to figure out whether opinions on this cultural centre have anything to do with logic or legalities.
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Ref 352, Zeno
No, it has nothing to do with our Constitution, values, or politics, it is all about religious intolerance, a characteristic that exists in all religions.
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All the Obama haters should stop watching him on TV if he makes you so §oo angry.
I never ever bother to give Bush, Palin and Co. any of my time at all at all..
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What about reading about him, or listening to him on the radio? the problem is , that if we start boycotting him, how would we know what he is saying? You have a first class plan of turning us into you? and then like you, you want us to say, "we believe that he believes...." Thats your modus operandi, we like to hear the words from the horses's mouth..
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I have to agree with the Colonel on this. The USA is probably good for at least fifty and maybe even a hundred years yet. Calm down, chill out and enjoy your retirement.
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It is okay for US military generals, senators, the pope, various religious leaders, those in other societies or in our own to discourage a US citizen from a non-violent demonstration, one that could cause others to react violently towards us. But it is NOT okay for the US president to do so. It was completely inappropriate. And in this case, it was also entirely unnecessary for Obama to do so, considering all the previous protesters. This is one of those moments that displays the true colors of our current US commander in chief. I just don't know how this wasn't a red flag for more people. And believe it or not, angry labelers, I don't even watch Fox.
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#315, SaintDominick:"In all fairness, I doubt Muslims would be allowed to build a Mosque . . . .adjacent to a Mormon or a Protestant Church in the USA."
Why not? Would that be against the constitution?
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Have you been to a city called st. cathrine in egypt and seen the monestry where Moses saw that burning bush? Genius, churches and mosques are built inside each other's yards in middle east, not in usa..
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#359, SaintDominick: Thanks, that explains the situation much better than most of the ranting on here so far.
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I don't see what's wrong with us exercising our constitutional rights in this country to incite violence in other countries.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11277526
If they want to riot in Egypt or Syria or Saudi Arabia why should we care? If the US government feels that there is an unusual degree of threat to Americans aborad then the State Department should issue warnings to Americans not to go to those countries or if they are there to leave. They don't seem to do that much lately. I haven't heard anyone say stay out of Mexcio. And exactly what were three Americans doing in Iraq strolling around on a hike wandering into Iran? Were they crazy?
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Grateful Free,
I like your name. It does make think a little of the Grateful Dead. Jerry Garcia especially was something special- his aura, everything about him. They were an awesome jam band- love when they just would play just for the fun of it. That's one of the beauties of America- being able to play a musical instrument in public having fun and not having to take it seriously. In some countries, they are not allowed to play music publicly if the lyrics are not politically correct.
Example: that Iranian hard rock band that now lives in Canada. Of course, in Iran, they also ban people from owning cats or dogs as pets in the house.
I think that it is high time we all stopped "kissing up" to certain religions. Example: Islam. I am tired of hearing No you can't do this or you can't do that because it might offend an Islamic person and could lead to further terrorism. If they want to be equal, they have to learn their religion will be treated the way Christianity, Buddism and so on is treated- no special favors and freedom of speech to all, no matter how offensive it may be to some. Like that Imam from NYC who is now saying that if they can't build the Ground Zero Mosque, it could promote terrorism. If you ask me, his statements are very suspicious and telling. It is obvious why they want to build that mosque overlooking Ground Zero. And no amount of intimidation or threats is going to stop me from expressing my viewpoint of being against the building of the Ground Zero Mosque due to its location.
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#365: "And exactly what were three Americans doing in Iraq strolling around on a hike wandering into Iran? Were they crazy?"
Probably just exercising their God-given rights as Americans to do anything they damn-well please, anywhere in the world.
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If they want to riot in Egypt or Syria or Saudi Arabia why should we care?
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In ideal world, you shouldnt have to care..China and russia or india can incite the people of these countries without even thinking..However, in your case, it becomes complicated..You incite egytpians, Mubarek wont talk to palestinians and tell them to make consessions on your behalf. Saudi arabia, you couldnt even retaliate after 9/11..It has many favours on america, it allowed gulf war , afghan war, has even told you that it will recognize the borderless entity aka your siamese twin if the twin frees the palestinians..So, you cannot afford riots in these countries...Here and now, at present, when you grace the usa, its not feasble for usa to have anti american riots in those countries..
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Mr Rauf said the intense debate over the New York centre had stoked anti-Muslim feeling across the US. He said he believed fear of Islam was possibly greater now than just after the 9/11 attacks.
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Yes, it has risen higher than ever since the day Rauf and others announced they would build a Ground Zero Mosque...
Like it or not, Rauf, your actions to build the Ground Zero Mosque indirectly and directly are part of why the heated rhetotic has been spiraling...
If Muslim Americans want to improve relations with Americans such as myself (a typical grrrl from Midwest), they could do so by saying they do not want the Ground Zero Mosque and would not go there out of respect to the 9/11 victims and to America...
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Da Bears rule!!!!!
Love ya, Bearssssss! :)
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#366, LucyJ:" . . . .being against the building of the Ground Zero Mosque due to its location. "
How many blocks then: three? four? five? six?? I'm still trying to figure out whether opinions on this cultural centre have anything to do with logic or legalities.
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If Muslim Americans want to improve relations with Americans such as myself (a typical grrrl from Midwest), they could do so by saying they do not want the Ground Zero Mosque and would not go there out of respect to the 9/11 victims and to America...
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Tell me one good reason why muslim americans living in newyork would want to improve relations with typical girl from midwest? Do you demand the non muslim americans from all over the country to improve relations with you or anyone who lives in the midwest?
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LucyJ: ". . . no amount of intimidation or threats is going to stop me from expressing my viewpoint . . ."
"If Muslim Americans want to improve relations with Americans such as myself (a typical grrrl from Midwest), they could do so by saying they . . . "
So nothing will change your mind - others must change theirs. Is it any wonder that Americans are so unpopular around the world?
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Probably just exercising their God-given rights as Americans to do anything they damn-well please, anywhere in the world.
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Jokes, aside but I think the government of usa should give basic lessons to the people travelling outside..they should be told that as americans cannot waltz their way into canada or mexico without border checkpost checking, iran or in fact every country has the same rules..No matter what anyone says, in a forgein country, they have to abide the rules..They have through their leaders and media this impression that those countries are more or less Texas, where anyone can do anything..
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colonartist;
"Mubarek wont talk to palestinians and tell them to make consessions on your behalf."
On my behalf? Are you for real? Why should I care if they ever talk to the Israelis at all let alone make concessions? (Concessions which they probably wouldn't keep anyway since they never kept even one in the past.)
"it will recognize the borderless entity aka your siamese twin"
What's the matter, can't you bring yourself to type the state of Israel? I'll bet you can't. Let's see you post using the name of the country called Israel, c'mon I dare you. If you can't then don't talk to me about tolerence for Moslems. You haven't got any for others.
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Zeno's paradox;
"Probably just exercising their God-given rights as Americans to do anything they damn-well please, anywhere in the world."
I detect a strong odor of jealousy. Zeno, wasn't he the Greek who figured out that you can't get to there from here?
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#349 Re: 173. At 4:45pm on 11 Sep 2010, and
157. At 3:14pm on 11 Sep 2010, “Grateful_Free wrote total nonsense.
I have reread the post you say insulted you. First, the bit about Grateful [Dead] was supposed to be humorous, and was certainly not intended to be insulting. I apologize if you took it that way.
However, what you wrote was nonsense, so calling it nonsense was a matter of fact not insult.
You wrote, “WE HAVE A US PRESIDENT THAT DOES NOT UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION.”
This is demonstrably false, so would you prefer to be called a fool or a liar. The president of the US, Barack Obama stated publicly that the pastor has a constitutionally protected right to free speech that he should not use this way. And General Petraeus said so before that.
He also said that building the Islamic Center is equally protected by the US Constitution. I have read the documents [The Constitution and Bill of Rights], so I know the president was correct. I doubt you have read them, but if you did it is obvious you didn’t understand them.
“...this is the kind of president radical Muslims want. Someone who FOLLOWS emotions of other societies, who will remove the US citizens' most basic rights himself.”
Did you get this nonsense from Anne Coulter, Beck or Limbaugh or did you come up with it yourself? Which of your rights has he removed or tried to remove? Even FOX news has shown the Muslim anger riots against the US, perhaps you didn’t notice the anger directed at Obama [or weren’t looking].
What does, “he follows the emotions of other societies” mean exactly? Being educated, he follows the emotions of Boston, MA not Dogpatch?
Being sophisticated, he is culturally akin to N.Y. and L.A. not Gainesville or Little Rock? Do you really believe that the 60+% of Americans who do not look, think, believe or feel exactly as you do are not “real” Americans?
“Listen: There is no freedom of religion without free speech.” Actually I agree with this, except that I think it applies to American Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Hindus, non-whites, agnostics, atheists, Hare Krishnas, Seventh Day Adventists and even ignorant persons who spout nonsense.
The Constitution does not protect only white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants, nor was the US founded on Christianity as many falsely believe. I told you not to believe everything people tell you, read the Constitution and Bill of Rights yourself.
Read the Jefferson Bible too, if you think the founding fathers based the US on Christianity, that should disabuse you. You should also read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist, but it was difficult reading for me and I was a history and political science major.
You wrote, “So please if you want your rights restored, do not vote third party now.” It was George W. Bush and the REPUBLICANS who got the so-called Patriot Bill passed. That was definitely one in a long series of Bush attacks on the Constitution. Including violating the right of the State of Oregon to decide on the definition of murder; and violating the right of the State of California to decide on a number of issues, including what can and can not be prescribed by doctors WITHIN California.
So of course I called what you wrote nonsense, it was at least that [and I am being polite].
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Zeno's Paradox;
"How many blocks then: three? four? five? six?? I'm still trying to figure out whether opinions on this cultural centre have anything to do with logic or legalities."
The closest area that could be considered a neighborhood to ground zero is Chinatown. Beyond that there's Little Italy, then SOHO (South of Houston which for the benefit of you Brits is pronounced How'-ston, not like the city in Texas which is spelled the same but pronounced Hue'-ston.) I don't think there are many Moslems living in either of them but who knows. I'd say about half a mile to a mile. If the people who live there don't like it, they can take it up with the Tongs or the Mafia.
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352. At 8:36pm on 12 Sep 2010, Zeno wrote:
#315, SaintDominick:"In all fairness, I doubt Muslims would be allowed to build a Mosque . . . .adjacent to a Mormon or a Protestant Church in the USA."
"Why not? Would that be against the constitution?"
In another thread or on another site I read an account of a mosque next to a synagogue and across the street from a church. The Muslims and Jews must be really good Americans there because, it transpired, that when some local Tea-types tried to get the Jews to back a petition to prevent a mosque expansion, they refused because they are good friends and neighbors and even share the same parking lot amicably.
I hope there is a lot more of that escaping the tabloid press.
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Lots of Questions.
Back on topic...
Going back into Iraq never should have been an option. If you recall, in the first gulf war the United Nations stopped the coalition when it was halfway to Baghdad to get Hussein and his henchmen.
So he stayed in power, killing some more of his own people with some helicopters the coalition let Iraq keep for some reason.
The UN was formed out of the league of nations immediately following World War II. They are supposed to prevent "Hitler’s" like Hussein, Milosevic, etc.
The job should have been done, In 1991.
There are people who think weapons of mass destruction didn't exist in Iraq. Why? Ever hear of the Kurds?
With the clouds of the us armor coming over the horizon, does anybody really think Hussein was going to leave all kinds of "WMD" stuff laying around to be found?
This was supposed to be an - in, shock and awe, then out - operation. Nobody could have predicted the unimaginable "insurgency" that started over there. Had there been no insurgency, would the strong and back-boned American public minded as much that our troops were over there? I feel safer, now that Hussein is “gone”. Particularly with all of the other issues now in that region.
The US has interests over there. Don't forget that in December 2009, Iran crossed the border, seized an oil well in Iraq, and raised the Iranian flag. This well was deep into Iraq. And just as fast, they left and went back to Iran. Why did they do this?
With us gone...what might happen to some or all of the oil wells in Iraq? Or Iraq itself? THEY DON'T HAVE AN ARMY ANYMORE! So we bring all but 50,000 troops home leaving our troops there in more danger than they ever have been. I hope nothing happens and it quiets down over there. In a sneak attack sudden war, 50,000 troops could be rolled right over if it's done right. With 50,000 American hostages so America wont declare war. Certainly though, we will increase sanctions on Iran, and the invasion will be condemned. (and everybody says I’m crazy.)
Here's the deal. If your son wants to join the army, he's not mom and dad's little boy anymore. Great place for education, but mom, dad and son have to accept he may wind up in combat some day. He has to think he might get killed, and all 3 must remember, and prepare, that the hardest thing is for a parent to lose a child. Same for a woman. She is less advantaged than a man, in combat. If you don't believe me, have a woman arm wrestle with a man. It is not a question of rights or intelligence. The present day “Lara Croft” imagery is fiction!
When Bush was in office, I felt safe. I was not swayed by the media. If during World War II the media behaved as it did during Bush's administration we would all be wearing swastikas and rising suns. But we have a "democracy". It is "freedom of speech". Even to be able to make destructively derogatory movies and books about the President of the United States WHILE HE IS STILL IN OFFICE!
But it isn't "freedom of speech" anymore to talk about God or other more “controversial” things.
Barak Obama was a national hero even before he was elected. What was his approval rating then? What is it now? Will removing troops from Iraq boost his ratings? If that's why it's being done, I hope it's worth the possible consequences.
The ground that the twin towers were built on will always be safe, because there's going to be some mosque there or something. Don't you just love the irony? I know most Muslims are good, but unfortunately a few bad eggs in the lot, will cast a shadow over the whole lot. Remember what happened during WWII when the Japanese bombed pearl harbor? Japanese Americans were put into internment camps. Why did the government do this?
Should our Muslims who are good people, stand up for their faith by denouncing what the Bin Laden “Muslims” are doing? Will someone even remotely involved in 9/11 ever use that mosque? Heh, heh.
I stand up for my Christian Faith.
Some “Pastor” believes he has a right to burn books?! In America?! And he dons a Harley Davidson shirt. Now whenever someone walks into a restaurant wearing theirs, some will think they may be book burners. Great…Just great.
The last time I saw books being burned en masse, were in films of the Nazis. I believe our decent Muslims have a right to be upset.
And, not to change the subject, but are we really doing our best with the Taliban? Or is this more of a “Vietnam” approach? What happened in Vietnam? Did we achieve our objective over there? What if the troops come out of Afghanistan before the job is done over there?
The Taliban were mad at us when they took out the World Trade Center towers. How mad at us do you think they are now? Bin laden has never been captured, and the "un-brainwashing" of what would have been left of the Taliban would never happen. Even if it were possible.
When the Taliban rebuilt, where do you think their most annihilating attack ever, is going to be? Are there restrictions and security to prevent normal looking people (yet Taliban), from entering the country? Or Muslims already in the USA from being influenced? American Muslims need to be strong and focused so this doesn’t happen.
Imagine this... Over the years, Taliban enter the US. Through breaches of security with stuff to make dirty bombs. These people are smart. More time goes by and there are one or two in every major city with synchronized watches. (The ones in New York will be the most comfy. They'll have a nice new mosque.”)
Do you really think it can't happen?
One day...boom.
Then we won't have to worry about security breaches, the Taliban, Iran, the economy or anything anymore. But oh, will we be screaming for health care.
Sleep tight. And New York...don't let the bed bugs bite.
Off my soapbox.
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# 366. At 10:06pm on 12 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:
"I think that it is high time we all stopped "kissing up" to certain religions. Example: Islam. I am tired of hearing No you can't do this or you can't do that because it might offend an Islamic person and could lead to further terrorism. If they want to be equal, they have to learn their religion will be treated the way Christianity, Buddism and so on is treated- no special favors and freedom of speech to all, no matter how offensive it may be to some."
So you are claiming no criticism of Islam is allowed in the US?
What planet are you living on?
"Like that Imam from NYC who is now saying that if they can't build the Ground Zero Mosque, it could promote terrorism. If you ask me, his statements are very suspicious and telling."
Suspicious in what way? Why don't you specify exactly what you are alleging?
From Wikipedia - "Counterterrorism analysts have noted that the developing controversy over Park51 has provided a "recruitment opportunity" for radical Islamist groups. According to Evan Kohlmann, the senior partner in the New York-based security firm Flashpoint Global Partners, "[t]he reaction is, at least on the part of extremists, fairly gleeful - that America is playing into our hands, that America is revealing its ugly face, and that even if it doesn't further radicalize people in the Middle East, there's no doubt that it will radicalize a kind of a key constituency that al-Qaida and other extremists are seeking to covet, seeking to court, which is the small number of homegrown extremists here in the United States".[140]
Newsweek quotes a Taliban operative as explicitly connecting increased opposition to the mosque with increased support for the Taliban's cause. "By preventing this mosque from being built, America is doing us a big favor," the Taliban operative stated. "It’s providing us with more recruits, donations, and popular support."[141]"
Presumably this makes Flashpoint Global Partners and Newsweek 'suspicious'?
"It is obvious why they want to build that mosque overlooking Ground Zero."
No it isn't. Unless you are telepathic. So why don't you come out and tell us what the 'obvious' reason is? Let me guess - it's a 'huge enormous mega-mega-victory-mega-mosque exactly on the site of Ground Zero funded by Bin Laden'?
"And no amount of intimidation or threats is going to stop me from expressing my viewpoint of being against the building of the Ground Zero Mosque due to its location."
Indeed. So who has intimidated you? Who has threatened you?
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On my behalf? Are you for real? Why should I care if they ever talk to the Israelis at all let alone make concessions? (Concessions which they probably wouldn't keep anyway since they never kept even one in the past.)
"it will recognize the borderless entity aka your siamese twin"
What's the matter, can't you bring yourself to type the state of Israel? I'll bet you can't. Let's see you post using the name of the country called Israel, c'mon I dare you. If you can't then don't talk to me about tolerence for Moslems. You haven't got any for others.
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Yes, on your behalf, see the way you reacted at the bottom of your post, perhaps you forgot in your reaction, that you already at the begining tried to give an impression that you didnt care...Show me its fix borders and I will call it a state..A state to be called a state needs to have fix and definate borders..the entity , your siamese twin does not..And thats why I refuse to call it one..UN, the world can compromise their priniciples, but I will not..
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336. At 5:55pm on 12 Sep 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:
And while we're on the subject of religious extremism and the dangers it poses to Americans, here's another sample from the Church of the Second Amendment Adventist:
Beats the crap out of Osama bin Ladin when it comes to causing suffering in America - this fundamentalist religion kills well over 10,000 Americans every year.
Bet you Stanley Neace's friends, family, and neighbours are really glad his Constitutional rights were so well protected.
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100817/pape-boultbee-stabbing-suspect-roxroy-100817/So%20You%20Think%20You%20Can%20Dance%20Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec/montreal-police-arrest-man-in-triple-lunchtime-stabbing-at-bistro/article1633181/
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Looks like we might also need to go after the knives up der in Canada eh.
...
On this one I dont know if we should outlaw knives in Canada or buses
http://www.zimbio.com/Vince+Weiguang+Li/articles/7/MAN+MURDERED+BEHEADED+GREYHOUND+BUS
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The area suits the muslims, they have been praying in that area for yrs..Dont forget, the property rate is very high, lots of estate agents and trumps looking for property to build their plazas or other center of bussiness..they have their own interest in the anti community center...
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MarcusAureliusII as a rule, you are the one who should be calling this community center a community center and the rest of us, mosque..because you are the one living closer to it, ergo should have the first hand knowldge..
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Colonartist;
"Yes, on your behalf, see the way you reacted at the bottom of your post, perhaps you forgot in your reaction, that you already at the begining tried to give an impression that you didnt care...Show me its fix borders and I will call it a state.."
I knew you wouldn't so much as even type the word Israel because you refuse to recognize that it has a right to exist as a Jewish state. At best you'd insist it go back to its undefendable pre 1967 war borders, that it give up Jerusalem the Jews' holiest place most Jews were denied access to when Moslems controlled it prior to 1967, that it accept the right of up to five million refugees and their descendants to return overwhelming it, and that it give up the sparsely populated but militarily very important Golan Heights. And only then would you consider that it has a right to exist. But of course we know if it did that it wouldn't exist for long and everyone else knows it too. That is unless you agree with Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and others who say it has no right to exist at all no matter what concessions it makes. And for this Egypt will do me a favor by asking the Palestinians to promise to make concessions? No thanks, keep your concessions and your favors.
So since you speak for 1.7 billion Moslems which is what you told us, it would seem any negotions at all are pointless and a waste of time just as I always said they were. Looks like there is only one alternative and I'm sure you know what that is. Some say bring it on. What do you say?
BTW, personally I don't care if the conflict goes on forever. Frankly, I think the Israelis are winning...by a lot. If they lose with all of the weapons they have at their disposal now, it's their own fault, they'd have no one to blame but themselves.
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353. At 8:43pm on 12 Sep 2010, ukwales wrote:
How can one say there is no justice in this world when,
MarcusAurelius has met Colonelartist...
____________
Funniset thing on the blog in several days.
They have seen the enemy, and he is them....
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President Obama was surely waiting for members of the Religious Right to step in and show some leadership, but they were either too cowardly to do so or actively hoping that the congregation carried out their plans and caused all hell to break out. He did what he had to do, as leader of his country and as Commander-in-Chief of the nation's armed forces, who certainly would have come under intense fire.
Now we can only hope and pray that the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas doesn't carry out its threat to do the very same thing.
These barbarians make me ashamed to be a United States citizen. I hope the world understands that we are not all like this.
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As someone that has lived over half his working life in predominatly molem contries I have many moslem friends who are very moderate and quite ok guys. Having discussed this qur'an burning issue with them they feel it is a orchestrated storm in a tea cup. I think that the modern day problems between christians, (whats the pecentage of christians against "other religions in the U.S.A.?)and moslems start from 9/11. While they do not question the fact that the planes hit the twin towers they do question the ability of american builders to design buildings that can fall down even with no plane strike. Although they are amazed that the building are desinged to fall within their own footprint. There will always be differences between christianity and islam. The two religions are quite incompatable. However as people of the WORLD we realy should find common ground and learn to live together for the sake of our children. The most worrying thing out of this is the continuing polarization of rabid people of both religions. I hope that this is not appreludue to worse acts to come. Well done Obama for trying to sort out this mess. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't hey? I have read both the bible and the qur'an. Remember folks there is no such thing as a free lunch!
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Mark, I do not think that the President elevated that paster in Florida; that job was already thoroughly accomplished by the media networks that unnecessarily beamed the story across the world. The President had no choice but to make a statement because the situation was quickly becoming a dangerous international incident.
However, It must be made crystal clear that this pastor was well within his rights to burn a Koran even after he chose not to; that fact is not up for debate. Those who say that his actions should be illegal because they incite violence miss the entire point of the Bill of Rights to the Constitution. This man did not incite his followers to violence therefore, he has legally expressed his opinions; violence incited against him is most definitely illegal.
"The last time I saw books being burned en masse, were in films of the Nazis. I believe our decent Muslims have a right to be upset."
-AmericanCrier
Comparing the Florida pastor to the Nazis for threatening to burn a Koran is an overly emotional and inaccurate comparison of dissimilar circumstances. The Nazis burned books as part of their national policy; the Florida paster is neither an employee nor a representative of the state of Florida or the Federal government. Yes, Muslims and non-Muslims alike have the right to be upset about the paster's threat to burn a Koran, but the hysterical threat of violence against him and other Americans is hardly appropriate.
"These barbarians make me ashamed to be a United States citizen."
-patriotaxe
The Florida pastor may be intolerant, but he is no barbarian; the real barbarians are those who would react to such a demonstration with violence.
"Show me its [fixed] borders and I will call it a state.."
-colonelartist
Normally I stay out of the discussions on Israel, but I must address this comment. Having recognized fixed borders is not a realistic requirement for nationhood, colonelartist. If that were the case then nations with undefined or uncertain borders such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, India, Pakistan, and China could not be recognized as nation-states. Israel certainly has an undefined border with the Westbank, but it also has well defined and recognized borders with Egypt, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.
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379. At 11:21pm on 12 Sep 2010, JMM wrote:
"In another thread or on another site I read an account of a mosque next to a synagogue and across the street from a church. The Muslims and Jews must be really good Americans there because, it transpired, that when some local Tea-types tried to get the Jews to back a petition to prevent a mosque expansion, they refused because they are good friends and neighbors and even share the same parking lot amicably."
In my town the mosque is across the street from a church. There were some troublemakers last week who caused the police to roll out to protect the mosque - the church rallied and opened their doors to their neighbors, and even escorted several home.
Kansas has lot of crazies, and lots of sensible folks too.
KScurmudgeon
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369. At 10:19pm on 12 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:
"If Muslim Americans want to improve relations with Americans such as myself (a typical grrrl from Midwest), they could do so by saying they do not want the Ground Zero Mosque and would not go there out of respect to the 9/11 victims and to America..."
Lucy, most of the girls I know, and I live in the midwest too, have better sense than to think that the rest of the world is obligated to live by our rules. As I understand it, Ohio does not live according to the dictates of Illinois, and I know Iowa will never take orders...
It is a big world, and the greater part of it is not our world. We can be part of it only to the extent we understand and respect that fact.
Yours,
KScurmudgeon
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373, Zeno wrote” So nothing will change your mind - others must change theirs”
I think the chronological changes in the landscape went along like this: Earlier. 9/11 hijackers collapsed NYC’s WTC… currently aka Ground Zero. And now Item.2: proposed Muslim Community Centre in NYC somewhere near Ground Zero… many envisaged as monument to 9/11 hijackers.
The latest proposed change in the landscape is Item.2. If no Community Centre, no big change in landscape. In the landscape of American minds, the active lobbying is in changing the minds of the status quo, the ‘don’t build it’ crowd. The issue “others must change theirs” is not a logical riposte. The Changer of the NYC Landscape must be a better Persuader. Kudos to the tenacious Colonel. As I had posted earlier “every tooth-paste maker knows that the proof of ‘whitest than white’ is not in the advertising blurbs but in the sales”.
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Re #380 American Crier wrote:
"Going back into Iraq never should have been an option. If you recall, in the first gulf war the United Nations stopped the coalition when it was halfway to Baghdad to get Hussein and his henchmen.
So he stayed in power, killing some more of his own people with some helicopters the coalition let Iraq keep for some reason."
You're correct. Schwartzkopf wanted to proceed but was ordered by GHWB to stop south of Basra, because Bush senior thought a U.S. Commander-in-Chief needs an authorization from UN.
[a tragic blunder which should never be repeated.]
As for helicopters you've mentioned they were used by Saddam to massacre southern Shia who rebelled against him, because, unfortunately, somebody who edited a wording of a ceasefire agreement used a term "fixed-wing" instead of "aircraft" in a part dealing with a ban on Iraqi aerial operations.
Saddam, being a butcher he was, took full advantage of that loophole.
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"The ground that the twin towers were built on will always be safe, because there's going to be some mosque there or something. Don't you just love the irony?"
I don't think so. Muslim extremists have been known to use mosques as arsenals and attack/bomb mosques serving factions of Islam they have a quarrel with.
This has happened many a time not only in the Middle East but also in S. Asia: most prominently in Pakistan. Check the wires.
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"Comparing the Florida pastor to the Nazis for threatening to burn a Koran is an overly emotional and inaccurate comparison of dissimilar circumstances."
Interestingly nobody has compared the Florida pastor to the Communists, although the Soviet Communists were burning books at the same time Nazis did. Ironically: often the very same books.
[just like they banned the same paintings as 'decadent' or 'degenerate']
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# 387. At 00:27am on 13 Sep 2010, Interestedforeigner wrote:
"353. At 8:43pm on 12 Sep 2010, ukwales wrote:
How can one say there is no justice in this world when,
MarcusAurelius has met Colonelartist...
____________
Funniset thing on the blog in several days.
They have seen the enemy, and he is them...."
__________________
Tweedledum and Tweedledee
Resolved to have a battle,
For Tweedledum said Tweedledee
Had spoiled his nice new rattle.
Just then flew by a monstrous Crow,
As big as a tar Barrel,
Which frightened both our heroes so
They quite forgot their quarrel."
A saying in Ireland - usually regarding some awful couple who end up together [hopefully saving 2 other innocent parties from being made miserable] - 'God made them and matched them'.
One claims to worship his 'G-d', though seems to have v little time for most of the people He created.
The other, as the saying goes, 'a self-made man who worships his creator'...
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We've just had a massive barrage of fireworks going off in Valor - a couple of villages away. It's the start of the celebrations that includes a "Moors and Christians" re-enactment of the battles of the 1500s here in Las Alpujaras. It's a really good show - you get to see Muslims being given the choice of converting to Christianity (with those who won't being killed). Great fun for all the family !!
It's a bit late for this this year - but next year I should maybe try to organise trips for angry Americans.
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RE: 396. At 07:05am on 13 Sep 2010, powermeerkat, I wrote almost exactly the same thing but my post was removed. However did you manage this?
I had to redo substituting "large Western European state" and "large eastern European state" and odious political party for the names in order to have it go through. Who are these "moderators," anyway?
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386. MarcusAureliusII
I have told you why I will not call the entity a state..You can interpret my refusal any which way you want to..The state has to have borders, it has to define what sort of state it wants to be...And so far, the entity fails to either define its border or to define itself..It has not even written a constitution..So far, its a place for the squatters, by the squatters and supported by its simese twin, which also became a state after yrs of squatting..Having realistic borders is the requirement of a state..Pathan is a nation, that lives both in afghanistan and pakistan, but we know where the state, the georgraphical boundries between the two states end..the nation can not waltz its way out and in from and to each other countries..Like I said, the UN or the world can pretend that the entity is a state but i will not play this game of pretence..I cannot have one rule for the world, and another for an entity..Tell me how many such places have been recognized as independent states by the UN? This is the corruption of the highest order..
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colonartist;
You and the 1.7 billion Moslems you speak for may not recognize the state of Israel but the UN and most of the world's nations do. The UN speaks for 6.5 billion people so you are outvoted 4 to 1. If you don't believe it you can look it up on the UN's web site or just go to the UN yourself and you will see the Israeli flag waving among those of all the other nations. And when you look at the general assembly and it is his turn to speak, you will see the sign that says Israel right in front of the Israeli ambassador. He didn't put it there, the UN did. And it has been there since 1948.
"So far, its a place for the squatters, by the squatters and supported by its simese twin, which also became a state after yrs of squatting."
Jews recent squatters in the land now called Israel? For what, about somewhere between 5 and 6 thousand years? Right, newcomers. And America, also an illegimate nation of squatters? Do you not recognise the legitimacy of the United States of America either? I'm reminded you speak for 1.7 billion Moslems, that's what you said. You have a very big family.
Many nations have border disputes with their neigbors. India and Pakistan, Russia and China, Peru and Ecuador, and many more. That doesn't stop the world from recognizing them as nations. Many don't have written down constitutions or if they do, they are so arcane and obscure nobody but experts understands them. Great Britain is among those but most of the world recognizes Great Britain. As for Israel defining itself, it has defined itself as the Jewish State, just as Iran has defined itself as the Islamic Republic. Seems rather clear and simple to me.
I find your arguments inconsistent and unconvincing. I think you won't type the word Israel out of hatred based on prejudice and bigotry. In the US that is your right, just as it is anyone elses to burn Korans or protest the mosque or Islamic center or whatever you call it. Those are freedoms you won't find commonly or at all in nations with predominantly Moslem populations. For example, just try burning a Koran in public in Saudi Arabia and see what happens to you. On second thought, you'd better not. An outspoken poster here who called herself "Princess on the Pea" and lived in Teheran has not been heard from since the election last year. We don't know what became of her but due to her penchant for speaking her mind freely one can only fear the worst about her fate. We wouldn't want the same thing to happen to you.
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388. At 02:02am on 13 Sep 2010, patriotaxe wrote:
These barbarians make me ashamed to be a United States citizen. I hope the world understands that we are not all like this.
You call the ones who would burn a book,barbaric while not mentioning the threats of violent attacks from muslims around the world,in response to burning paper.
Notice he did not have to burn anything to prove the violent nature of the muslim religion.
As far as being ashamed of being an American citizen,Im sure you were already ashamed before this event, as showing American pride is probably too politically incorrect for you .
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You and the 1.7 billion Moslems you speak for may not recognize the state of Israel but the UN and most of the world's nations do.
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I know UN recognizes, I know how usa forced UN to recognize the entity as a state..first time, it lost, second time, thanks to small latin states, it got the recognition..If UN can play with its own laws and rules, then its up to UN to explain why it did..Me, I will not call a state, a state until it looks like a state..The entity has a problem with occupation, and the anchorless borders...Its final shape is locked in a safe..the shape it wants to have..I read the word, everyday in koran..I have no problem with the word, I however, have a problem pre-emtive use of this word for something that has not yet met the crietria of an independent state..India and pakistan have no border dispute with each other, their borders are firmly marked..and sealed..India doesnt constantly change its borders..it occupies the same part of kashmir since since 1947.No muslim kashmiri has been forced to leave their homes, it tried to change the demographic by settling hindus over there, but its not working..only the religious pandits go there...No grandmother clause either. Squatters are all those who went there after the land was divided by the brits..the minority were given the majority land..the jews being living in those areas BCs ago and for thousands of yrs, however, they ruled the area just for 300 hundered yrs..And that was in the times of prophet david and solomon...And in those times, tribes of all types, and not only jacob's tribe graced the area..And show me where I have said that people in usa should not burn koran, if thats their law then they should do it..And if muslims get upset then its their right, and they can protest in any which way they will want to, its their right..Your problem is that you want to burn koran, and you want the muslims not to protest...Maybe the princess met her prince and is too busy to post, there could be so many other reasons, but you had to think about negative reasons, because it best suit your assumptions..Imagination is a fantastic thing helps in creativity but too much imagination interfer with real life...
And as far as my family is concerened, I have a very big family..I am thinking of introducing a DNA test..My answer to the entity remains the same..You can believe whatever you want to.. We were forced a durand line, dividing the nation into two places, and since we are forced to respect that, then I will apply the same for every entity...that which is good for us, should be good for everyone..including the entity..The same people who forced the nation to divide by a line in afghanistan and pakistan, generously support a lineless entity...This is pathetic.
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As for Israel defining itself, it has defined itself as the Jewish State,
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Which jewish state? the ethinical or the religous? It has done no such thing, its just makes it rules as it goes along..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
colonartist;
"It has done no such thing, its just makes it rules as it goes along."
Yes, we do that too. It's called passing legislation and it happens all the time all over the world. The rules and laws keep changing. How thoughtless of people, just when you learned the old ones.
Did the Princess on the Pea meet her Prince Charming? Maybe while waiting on line to vote for Ahmadinejad or against him. What a coincidence. I think it more likely that she met Ahmadinejad's dark princes of the torture chambers in their dungeons. She was the outspoken type they like best.
The world changes, events shape it. Israel is a reality that exists and will not go away. You can pretend it doesn't exist and others can try to end its existance. But part of that reality now is that it is believed to have several hundred nuclear weapons, enough to burn down the entire Middle East if it decides to. It would be a fatal mistake for anyone to try to bring it to an end. So many who have tried have only wound up bringing themselves to an end instead. They never seem to learn.
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Interestingly nobody has compared the Florida pastor to the Communists,
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There is another irony, the mother of all irony which no one has mentioned.....That irony will compare the pastor and his supporters, and those who all of a sudden want to protect the book burning as its in american constitution, to the very fundamentalists muslims they hate..Its more of pathetissm than irony..
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The world changes, events shape it. Israel is a reality that exists and will not go away. You can pretend it doesn't exist and others can try to end its existance.
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And the world changes...Your "will not go away" refutes your claim that world changes...Pretence is all yours..It doesnt exist because it doesnt have any borders...it can even go into international sea waters to block the ships going to Gaza, which it claims is no longer its part. But its not written in any legal paper of the entity...
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The mother of all this, the mother of all that. We have Saddam Hussein to thank for that expression entering our language. It's only part of his legacy to the world.
I think once a Moslem fully accepts the Koran as the true word of god, it is impossible for him to accept the authority of the Constitution of the United States, even if he understands it. I think their contradictions are irreconcilable. A real dilemma for American Moslems. They must compromise one, the other, or both. To be an American or live in America, compromising the authority of the Constitution is not an option. To act out trying is to risk the virtual certainty of legal action against you, possibly prison, and even the death penalty.
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After due consideration, I have decided that someone who has a vast collection of family and friends the rest of us could never dream of and speaks for 1.7 billion Moslems cannot have any border or defining boundary himself. I will from here on out refer to him as "amorphous entity." It seems that is how he characterizes countries which have those properties so why not people? Do you find that acceptable col...I mean amorphous entity?
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But part of that reality now is that it is believed to have several hundred nuclear weapons, enough to burn down the entire Middle East if it decides to.
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Again, the entity has to prove that it has hundreds of nuclear weapons..Havent you learnt enough from Iraq's fiasoco that you still believe in your believes? If if it had, it wont use them..Not every jew over there is an Ashkenazi.The final apocalypse- Armageddon scenario is biblical, not in islam and not in judasim..the culturally christian jews from europe maybe share your view about this..but thats about all.
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The mother of all this, the mother of all that. We have Saddam Hussein to thank for that expression entering our language. It's only part of his legacy to the world.
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His legacy will start to trickle down, let the dust settle down..Atleast he didnt invent a slur like jihadist...which the anti-islamist mothers and fathers of so called higher civilization use without blinking their eyes..You havent met any american muslims, they have no problem with the constitution, you have a problem with their non-problem with constitution, thats why without checking the facts you generously wrote this sentence..They are excercizing their civil rights..if they had problem with constitution, they would have not stood for their right to build a community center at a place which is most convient to them..Muslims have been living in usa for yrs and yrs..there are muslims who have lived in usa since before your birth...And all of a sudden the anti community centerist and anti islam, wake up today to tell the american muslims that they have a problem with american constitution? Kindly let your common sense return, its tired of sitting with its left hand under the chin, and right folded across the stomach. waiting outside your brain,
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After due consideration, I have decided that someone who has a vast collection of family and friends the rest of us could never dream of and speaks for 1.7 billion Moslems cannot have any border or defining boundary himself. I will from here on out refer to him as "amorphous entity." It seems that is how he characterizes countries which have those properties so why not people? Do you find that acceptable col...I mean amorphous entity?
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One man's dream is another man's nightmare.
No. My amorphous ends where other person's nose starts...
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Dear moderators,
I apologize for suggesting a certain person may be a member of Al Qaeda without having evidence to substantiate such claim.
I would like to reiterate, however, that I believe AQ has moved from military confrontation to psychological warfare, probably not by choice but because of the losses they have suffered in the battlefield and the pressure they are under, which forces them to operate underground and adopt a different strategy to pursue their nefarious goals.
I do not believe the things that have been happening in my country recently are an accident. The provocative and controversial initiatives that have been proposed in the USA in recent weeks are, in my opinion, part of a concerted effort to inflame passions, create divisions, and undermine our most precious values.
I am usually not inclined to engage in intrigue, but I am old enough to recognize that many of the things we see and hear are not spontaneous expressions of dissent or laudable initiatives designed to promote mutual respect and cultural reconciliation, but well crafted and coordinated efforts to pursue an agenda and achieve specific goals.
Is this nebulous enough for you?
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Muslims have been living in usa for yrs and yrs..there are muslims who have lived in usa since before your birth...
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Muslims make us less than 1% of the US population. Yes, there are Muslims here, but that is a small number, although it has been steadily growing since 9/11.
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Sadly, Christians are being persecuted by Muslim radicals in some parts of the world, which is why as a Christian, I am beyond, beyond grateful and appreciative to be in America, where at least I am not persecuted for my faith. I love you, beautiful, strong and comforting USA.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100913/wl_asia_afp/indiakashmirunrest
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Tell me one good reason why muslim americans living in newyork would want to improve relations with typical girl from midwest? Do you demand the non muslim americans from all over the country to improve relations with you or anyone who lives in the midwest?
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I am simply implying that there can be better communications if people reach out to one another. No, this is not a requirement, it is a suggestion. Muslim Americans should want to reach out to Americans across the country for better relations, however, if they want to remain amongst themselves, we cannot force them to assimilate to our Western culture. But it would greatly improve everyone's daily lives.
I support all the Muslim Americans who are against the Ground Zero Mosque and all the Muslim Americans who put USA first and are not lying for taquyaa. Good for them!
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Muslim extremist terrorists claim they are for their Allah, but they are basically in love with themselves, as they do not believe others are worthy of life, only them. Muslim extremist terrorists are narcissists.
(Like that old myth about the boy staring into the water because he's so good looking, he cannot leave his reflection)
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I do not believe the things that have been happening in my country recently are an accident. The provocative and controversial initiatives that have been proposed in the USA in recent weeks are, in my opinion, part of a concerted effort to inflame passions, create divisions, and undermine our most precious values.
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The things which have been happening in your country are your country's own wrong doing..if your country had been moderated like this blog, your country would not been linking alqaida's motive to islam, or linking taleban's fight against occupation to islam, and civil war and resistance to occupation of iraq into shia and sunni, alqaida in iraq...Your own narrative has led you into this...I dont know if you even can imagine the consquences of suggesting someone is linked to alqaida, otherwise you would have thought twice before doing it..Lots of innocent people are roting in jails and G-d knows where, because of suggestions of people like you.
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Sadly, Christians are being persecuted by Muslim radicals in some parts of the world, which is why as a Christian, I am beyond, beyond grateful and appreciative to be in America, where at least I am not persecuted for my faith. I love you, beautiful, strong and comforting USA.
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SaintDominick,instead of being afraid of alqaida, you should be more afraid of your youth....a person who was 10 yrs old in 2001 is now 19, a fifteen yr old is 24, a twenty yr is now thirty...they have for now almost decade just heard the narrative against islam...they are bound to become more extremists...Our youth was taught by cia as well, to fight against ussr and look how they turned out after 10 yrs of fighting...you started off hating muslims of the globe, and your youth hates their own muslim citizens...
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am simply implying that there can be better communications if people reach out to one another. No, this is not a requirement, it is a suggestion. Muslim Americans should want to reach out to Americans across the country for better relations, however, if they want to remain amongst themselves, we cannot force them to assimilate to our Western culture. But it would greatly improve everyone's daily lives.
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Why should they want to reach out to everyone in usa? However, if thats what every american does, reach out everyone else, then muslims should do it too..Otherwise, let them live their lives, let them choose their own friends...And now tell me how on earth is your daily life disturbed by the muslims living in alaska, or nework, or seatle? Do you have take a longer route to your job, because of muslims? or eat less?
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amorphous entity who speaks for 1.7 billion moslems;
"Again, the entity has to prove that it has hundreds of nuclear weapons..Havent you learnt enough from Iraq's fiasoco that you still believe in your believes?"
Israel doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. Haven't you understood that yet? In fact they will neither confirm nor deny that they have them. It wants its nuclear weapons status to remain ambiguous and its programs secret. That's why it didn't sign the NPT. But don't take my word for it, look at this;
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Israel/index.html
This information was current in 1997, 13 years ago. At that time they were beleived to have had about 200 of them. By now it has probably doubled or more. At that time they were believed to have had fusion boosted weapons. By now they undoubtedly have fully functional thermonuclear weapons. Jews distinguished themselves during the Manhattan Project and followup projects as among the best nuclear physicists in the world. Among their numbers they invented and played key rolse in the developmet of both the atomic bomb and the hydrogen bombs.
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Saddam did exactly what the entity is trying to do, give an impression..and wmd in iraq turned out to be just empty drums and empty old buildings...unless proved otherwise, I will not even dare to think that the entity has nuclear bombs...Secondly if the little voice in me, sometimes say, "what if it has", then, I dont for a second believe that it will ever use it...The credit of using atom bomb goes to usa...first it destroyed a country by using it, now its destroying countries in its name...
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amorphous entity who speaks for 1.7 billion moslems;
"Saddam did exactly what the entity is trying to do, give an impression"
Tell it to the Kurds who live in Northern Iraq.
"Secondly if the little voice in me, sometimes say, "what if it has", then, I dont for a second believe that it will ever use it"
Don't bet your sandals on it ae1.7
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SaintDominick,instead of being afraid of alqaida, you should be more afraid of your youth....a person who was 10 yrs old in 2001 is now 19, a fifteen yr old is 24, a twenty yr is now thirty...they have for now almost decade just heard the narrative against islam...they are bound to become more extremists...Our youth was taught by cia as well, to fight against ussr and look how they turned out after 10 yrs of fighting...you started off hating muslims of the globe, and your youth hates their own muslim citizens...
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Actually, its more distrust than hate. And this distrust comes from common sense and experience.
Unfortantely, the bad people- the Muslim terrorists- have given the good people (I guess?)- Muslims who are not terrorists- a bad rep due to the confusion of not knowing who's who and not understand how to tell the difference, due to taqiyya. We need more of the 'good' Muslims who are against terrorism to speak out against such and to assimilate more into Western culture.
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Why should they want to reach out to everyone in usa? However, if thats what every american does, reach out everyone else, then muslims should do it too..Otherwise, let them live their lives, let them choose their own friends...And now tell me how on earth is your daily life disturbed by the muslims living in alaska, or nework, or seatle? Do you have take a longer route to your job, because of muslims? or eat less?
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Why not? Yes, I do reach out to my community and know my neighbors, as this is how you get to know people by communicating and give and take conversation.
If they are terrorists, I am disturbed by them. If they are not terrorists, then I'm not worried. No, every day is a long route because driving is part of what I do. I love to drive. I could never live In saudi or whatever countries where women cannot drive on their own. I admit at first I was a terrible driver, but now I'm much better, thanks. Driving is an artform in itself.
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amorphous entity who speaks for 1.7 billion moslems;
"Saddam did exactly what the entity is trying to do, give an impression"
Tell it to the Kurds who live in Northern Iraq.
"Secondly if the little voice in me, sometimes say, "what if it has", then, I dont for a second believe that it will ever use it"
Don't bet your sandals on it ae1.7
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if we apply your theory of saddam and kurds to the entity, then the conclusion is that the entity will use it on its own citizens..who might they be, only time will tell...
I am a muslim, I dont bet..besides my sandals are very expensive..made of pure leather by hand on special order..my shoes are also very expensive..armani..People from my family have already eyes on them..I have like the very wise guy, have detailed my will...to the dots, more than equal share to my family, friends, servants, and even the begger who comes every week...what they dont know is that, i have written with small writing at the end, that incase of my death, the will becomes null and void...Now if you were a middle eastern, you would understood what that meant...
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I admit at first I was a terrible driver, but now I'm much better, thanks. Driving is an artform in itself.
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You should go to dubai..abu dhabi is going to open a Ferari world in late october..
why the crussade to make everyone else talk to each other...Do you know that a human being can only feel comfortable maximum 120 other humans? thats the outer limit of human social behaviour..Some people really dont like to interact with others..why do you plan to disturb their lives, just because you have this funny aim to make people interact with each other..If you go to bavaria germany, those people will not even let you come to near you, they are not the most social people..very shy ,very introvert.
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ae1.7 (easier than writing amorphous entity who speaks for 1.7 billion moslems every time);
"if we apply your theory of saddam and kurds to the entity, then the conclusion is that the entity will use it on its own citizens.."
So you are saying the Isralis will nuke themselves? If you are trying to convince me that your arguments are not rational, don't waste any more of your precious time. I'm already sold.
"what they dont know is that, i have written with small writing at the end, that incase of my death, the will becomes null and void...Now if you were a middle eastern, you would understood what that meant..."
So you have written a will and told everyone what they are going to inherit from you. But then if you die the will becomes null and void. So if they kill you for your expensive sandals or Armani shoes, the joke's on them because they don't get to own them. I'm just trying to think the way a middle easterner would based on your reasoning....such as it is.
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ae1.7
"Do you know that a human being can only feel comfortable maximum 120 other humans? thats the outer limit of human social behaviour.."
That must be a very inconvenient truth for someone who has more family and friends than I can dream of and speaks for 1.7 billion people.
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That must be a very inconvenient truth for someone who has more family and friends than I can dream of and speaks for 1.7 billion people.
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And did I confess of being comfortable? Its not for nothing that I dont approve that people on life and death demand that people should interact with each other when they dont want to, and have no need to..
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So you are saying the Isralis will nuke themselves? If you are trying to convince me that your arguments are not rational, don't waste any more of your precious time. I'm already sold.
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No. I said the entity doesnt have all those nukes..and then i said, even it did, it wont use it, you brought in saddam and his kurds as an example, and I concluded from your example that if it used it, it will use it like saddam..
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So you have written a will and told everyone what they are going to inherit from you. But then if you die the will becomes null and void. So if they kill you for your expensive sandals or Armani shoes, the joke's on them because they don't get to own them. I'm just trying to think the way a middle easterner would based on your reasoning....such as it is.
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And you didnt understand..Jesus would have, because he was from middle east and spoke in parables..
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If you go to bavaria germany, those people will not even let you come to near you, they are not the most social people..very shy ,very introvert.
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My parents lived in Germany as my father was stationed there in the mid to late 70's and they told me Germany was one of their favorite places in Europe. Germany and the Netherlands due to their flowers. They loved England, France, Greece, all the others, too, but Germany was where they lived and it is why I have such high standards for Germany cause' they loved the people they met there so much. The Germans treated my parents so well, even making them rabbit stews and all sorts of delicious foods. Some still send Christmas cards to my parents in German, even though we can't read them unless asking a foreign exchange student or so. Plus, I've got German in my blood, as well, so I totally love Germany.
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You should go to dubai..abu dhabi is going to open a Ferari world in late october..
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Late October is Halloween. Don't know yet what I will be this year...
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And you didnt understand..Jesus would have, because he was from middle east and spoke in parables..
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That's because Jesus understands everything. He is the son of God. :)
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ae1.7
"And you didnt understand..Jesus would have, because he was from middle east and spoke in parables.."
I thought he spoke in Aramaic...or Hebrew.
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ae1.7
"And you didnt understand"
I don't dare ask you to explain it to me. I'm almost afraid of what the answer would be. It might induce hallucinations or some other abberation. OTOH I might be immune to it, there's no middle eastern blood or genes in me to rekindle I'm aware of.
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Late October is Halloween. Don't know yet what I will be this year...
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Genius, when they are going to open it, it will remain open..you can go there whenever you can, after october and halloween, and you can be lucyj, with a mission to integrate everyone with everyone else..whether they like it or not..Forced interaction..
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Integration is not my mission. In fact, I rather like the fact that my town and most towns around are majority white. But these are mostly the rural areas. The cities are highly integrated, although it does not seem that Muslim Americans have reached out enough to other city folk. I don't have to worry about my area- no Muslims live here and I would be highly surprised if they suddenly showed up. Of course' you never know...
My mission is to do what is best for God and the USA.
I believe that the Ground Zero Mosque is not is our best interest. And I believe that Muslim Americans should assimilate into Western culture.
And some have, I guess, like those Muslim football players in Michigan and Miss USA, who is also from Michigan. But there are some who have kept to themselves and they should communicate openly with their fellow Americans. Unless they have something to hide?
Nope, not interested in sandy deserts with Islamic laws, so probably won't go there anytime soon.
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409. At 6:22pm on 13 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII [a true enigma] wrote that which might be unpalatable but is quite true. I am quite surprised that I have found something to agree with him on, a rare and inexplicable occasion.
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re: 438 JMM
Might I suggest, before you get too carried away by Marcus, that you read this posting from the "Better Angels" thread, just for example?
It is a voice of faith, reason, love, and humility too seldom heard amid the anger. But it is the kind of thing I hear all the time from my Muslim family, friends, and colleagues.
Cheers!
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I just received an undocumented e-mail report. If anyone knows more about this, especially present/former service members, please let us know.
"Sept 13 2010
Afghanistan - The push by some in the media against rising anti-Muslim sentiment in the United States gained valuable voices of support over the weekend -- and now joining that chorus are veterans who fought alongside U.S. servicemembers of Islamic faith in Iraq and Afghanistan.
A small but growing group of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have signed onto an open letter, which calls on the American public to respect 'the values we risked our lives to protect' and to avoid endangering the mission -- and safety -- of U.S. forces in the Mideast.
Like Gen. David Petraeus, the veterans warn that U.S. troops will face blowback from demonstrated intolerance for Muslims at home.
'What is a squad leader supposed to say to an Afghan woman who asks him why we want to burn her holy book? the letter says. 'When citizens here participate in hateful rhetoric and intolerance toward Muslims, it leaves soldiers over there exposed.'"
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437. At 11:58pm on 13 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:
My mission is to do what is best for God and the USA.
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And what if those are two mutually contradictory things?
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IF;
"My mission is to do what is best for God and the USA.
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And what if those are two mutually contradictory things?"
Then to hell with God. What's he ever done for us?
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442. At 04:16am on 14 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Then to hell with God. What's he ever done for us?"
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First, you seem to be making a possibly unwarranted assumption.
Second, it was a question to Lucy for the purpose of drawing attention to another possibly unwarranted assumption in her posting.
Third, as for your rhetorical question: From a number of postings I have seen on this blog America was not in fact founded by leading thinkers of the Age of Enlightenment, nor were Jefferson, Adams, et al., involved in writing the Bill of Rights.
On the contrary, as I have read here on this blog, America was founded on God, Guns and Guts, (Rights of Man, Hard work, Yankee Ingenuity, technological advance, education: not so much, apparently), the Bill of Rights enumerates the God-given rights of all Americans (God of the Old Testament must have been on holidays when the non-establishement of religion part was written), and America is God's will.
Further, just today on the blog I read something about Abraham Lincoln loving to read his Bible. True, but also odd as an example of Christian faith, given that Lincoln did not believe in the resurrection. (See Doris Kearns Goodwin's biography "Team of Rivals")
I'm shocked that you are not aware of these things.
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And what if those are two mutually contradictory things?"
Then to hell with God. What's he ever done for us?
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God watches out for us, He helps us in time of need and forgives us when we make mistakes. He loves us, even if we don't love him.
God is love.
There's no reason to be angry at God or angry at people who believe in God, especially if someone like you, MAII, does not believe in God anyway, as you have previously initiated. You are strong with your beliefs, MAII, but are there times in USA history where things have worked out so well or very lucky that is it really all luck combined with hardworking, inventive and determined Americans or is there some hints of Godly intervention that helped us develop into the country that we are today? I mean generally speaking things have worked out pretty well for us, don't you think? Not perfect, sometimes quite trying, but well, overall.
IF, It never is contradictory. God and USA go together for me. Despite what some from other countries say, I know we are a good country, because the majority of the people in USA are good, honest, hardworking people wiht a lot of love in their lives and spirit in their souls. Because no matter what, we have the freedom of religion here, so there is nothing stopping us, but at the same time, I don't want to go wild because I know that people will say Oh preaching and so on. Don't want to do that. People who love God should freely be allowed to do so and if you don't, then you should freely not have to or be forced by your govt. to do so. So that is the separation that IF so much wants to point out.
When there is a contradiction for such as gay marriage, I would like to point out in nature that it is only a man and woman who can physically have a child together, regardless of their skin color. That was nature's choice. Yes, I am against gay marriage due to my religion, moral beliefs and nature beliefs, but I am also against it because I believe it could lead to other marriages, such as multiple partners, relative weddings, child weddings, animal human weddings and so on- because where do you draw the line? Very slippery slope. I do not believe it is in the best interest for USA, nor for our military. But why do this to our military when we are doing multiple wars and we need unity more than ever?
They need our support, not drastic overwhelming ultraliberal policies.
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IF,
Don't forget the last line in Lincoln's Gettysberg Address:
"It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
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Lincoln penned the following words:
The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God's purpose is something different from the purpose of either party -- and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaptation to effect His purpose. I am almost ready to say that this is probably true -- that God wills this contest, and wills that it shall not end yet. By his mere great power, on the minds of the now contestants, He could have either saved or destroyed the Union without a human contest. Yet the contest began. And, having begun He could give the final victory to either side any day. Yet the contest proceeds.
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From Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address in March 1865:
Both [North and South] read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes.
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In April 1864, in justifying his actions regarding Emancipation, Lincoln wrote, "I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me. Now, at the end of three years struggle the nation's condition is not what either party, or any man devised, or expected. God alone can claim it."
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In the difficult summer of 1864, when the Union Army was suffering severe casualties, Lincoln drew solace from the Bible. To his friend Joshua Speed, he said, "Take all of this book [the Bible] upon reason that you can, and the balance on faith, and you will live and die a happier and better man." He is also quoted as saying, "this Great Book...is the best gift God has given to man."
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Last but not least:
In December 1863, Lincoln's Secretary of the Treasury decided on a new motto to engrave on U.S. coins. Lincoln's involvement in this decision is unclear, but certainly the expression, "In God We Trust," was in keeping with Lincoln's spiritual beliefs at the time.
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When a pious minister told Lincoln he "hoped the Lord is on our side," the president responded, "I am not at all concerned about that.... But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side."
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In November 1863, Lincoln travelled to Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, to participate in the dedication of the cemetery established there for the thousands of soldiers who died during the recent battle. There he gave his celebrated speech, the Gettysburg Address, wherein he hoped that the nation shall, "under God," have a new birth of freedom. The words, "under God," may not have been in his written manuscript, but he added them extemporaneously from the podium. According to scholars, he likely drew the expression from George Washington. Later, this passing rhetorical reference of Lincoln's would be embedded in the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance at the prompting of George MacPherson Docherty who, in 1954 was the pastor of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church, where Lincoln had rented a pew.
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In 1864, some former slaves in Maryland presented Lincoln with a gift of a Bible. Lincoln replied:
In regard to this great book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.
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These are all from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_religion
I could have just posted the link, but I wanted to point out the strongest statements on there, as Lincoln came into his faith especially in his later years. So if its too long, just skip. Lincoln just has such great, strong and powerful quotes that make sense.
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LucyJ:
I have a favorite quote by Lincoln too. Here it is:
I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
[Lincoln's Fourth Debate with Douglas at Charleston, Illinois
September 18, 1858]
I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen to my knowledge a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. [.....] I will also add to the remarks I have made, (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject,) that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, [laughter] but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, [roars of laughter] I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. [Continued laughter and applause.]
You see, the big-eared dude was not always what he is made out to be nowadays.
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442. At 04:16am on 14 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Then to hell with God. What's he ever done for us?
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Marcy, Riddle me this, How can you send some one you do not believe in, to a place that their-for does not exist?..
It could be said that the US is a lucky country,my view is that the closer to God it walked the luckier it became...
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#348 - Haha that one made me laugh.
Freud would have a field day with you. Your as mixed up as your constitution.
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That's because Jesus understands everything. He is the son of God. :)
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Lots of people, well not lot but some, declared themselves to be sons of gods whem they had questionable paternity...Among them some very famous pharoah...Benefit of doubt goes to jesus since he never claim once that he was the son of G-d, that is something attributed to him by the people who formed the religon christinianity..Jesus would have understood exactly what I had written about the will being null and void after death because he was from middle east...the cultural meaning of the whole example..You dont want to go to abu dhabi because you dont like the desert, and yet somehow you demand that muslims living in newyork should do what someone living in midwest wants...In reality, you would have to find the desert in abu dhabi, and you would have problems adjusting in newyork if you ever dare to decide to settle there..
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Norman,
Lincoln was a man of his time and things did not just suddenly one day turn over. There are some people who claim that Lincoln was racist because of quotes such as the one you mentioned, which are not talked about as much as others necessarily. To me, it is all living history. But when it comes down to it, Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed the slaves- this took great bravery, skill and courage. It wasn't very easy in those times- the right to slavery caused our huge Civil War, so you can see that to change even the smallest thing about this subject was huge, nevertheless the other issues.
If Lincoln had said that it was okay at that time for race to intermarry, for blacks to be jurors and so on- he might have been booed and kicked out of the room, might never have become President. Lincoln knew the most important thing was nulling slavery- and then they could later focus on the rest if they wanted- but one step at a time. Lincoln knew slavery was wrong and he changed history by ending slavery. You have to crawl before you learn to walk...
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A good essay on sharia from Sumbul ali-Karamali:
There are six principles of shariah. They are derived from the Qur’an, which Muslims believe is the word of God. All Islamic religious rules must be in line with these six principles of shariah.
Aha! The six principles must be about killing infidels, veiling women, stoning people for adultery, honor killings and female genital cutting, right? Nope.
Here they are, the six principles of shariah:
1. The right to the protection of life.
2. The right to the protection of family.
3. The right to the protection of education.
4. The right to the protection of religion.
5. The right to the protection of property (access to resources).
6. The right to the protection of human dignity.
Well, bless me, as a pledge-of-allegiance-reciting, California-raised Muslim girl, these six principles sound a lot like those espoused in my very own Constitution of the United States. Except that these were developed over a thousand years ago.
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Lots of people, well not lot but some, declared themselves to be sons of gods whem they had questionable paternity...Among them some very famous pharoah...Benefit of doubt goes to jesus since he never claim once that he was the son of G-d, that is something attributed to him by the people who formed the religon christinianity..Jesus would have understood exactly what I had written about the will being null and void after death because he was from middle east...the cultural meaning of the whole example..You dont want to go to abu dhabi because you dont like the desert, and yet somehow you demand that muslims living in newyork should do what someone living in midwest wants...In reality, you would have to find the desert in abu dhabi, and you would have problems adjusting in newyork if you ever dare to decide to settle there..
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Of course there will always be crazy people who claim they are gods, but there is only one God and there is only one son of God, Jesus, born to Mary of virginal birth. (one reason why Mary/Marie/Maria/ is still such a popular name). I will not debate with you further on such, because I know you have very particular views and our views may not add up, though we both love God, just believe in different things and different ways. One last thing, though, Jesus and God love everybody- it doesn't matter if you are from the Middle East, Russia, America, Europe, China, India or anywhere else.
No, I am not interested in Abu Dhabi because I am scared of being thrown into jail there because I am Westerner and do not know their ways, would probably make some grand error and get thrown into jail for losing a headscarf or kissing someone on the cheek, saying Hi or smiling/making eye contact with some high-up or being too forward or something- who knows? When people get tipsy, too, they get silly sometimes. Wouldn't want to end up with the wrong crowd there. Same for NYC. Although it is USA, you have to be very careful and cautious in the cities, especially the biggest of all, NYC. Many call it the Concrete Jungle, due to its vast enormousness of mass buildings. I love that NYC has Central Park there, so a touch of nature, although it is dangerous to jog on your own there. Hear all the time about kidnappings from jogging on your own in big cities, such as NYC and esp. LA and across California.
I feel safe and comfortable in USA, though. Its like a warm, happy feeling that bubbles inside and does not go away ever.
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No, I am not interested in Abu Dhabi because I am scared of being thrown into jail there because I am Westerner and do not know their ways, would probably make some grand error and get thrown into jail for losing a headscarf or kissing someone on the cheek,
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The jails in abu dhabi are like four star hotels in your country..And unlike your country, where they make a huge drama out of if they ever give halal or kosher meal to a muslims or jew, in abu dhabi the meals are especially made to suit the prisoner religon and health..Jesus was from the middle east, he only loved his tribesmen, he didnt even know that people existed in europe,in short, he had no time for the europeans..And I will say no more because I am afraid of the church of england..
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Same for NYC. Although it is USA, you have to be very careful and cautious in the cities, especially the biggest of all, NYC. Many call it the Concrete Jungle, due to its vast enormousness of mass buildings. I love that NYC has Central Park there, so a touch of nature, although it is dangerous to jog on your own there. Hear all the time about kidnappings from jogging on your own in big cities, such as NYC and esp. LA and across California.
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And yet there are people from the third world or muslim world, comfortably settled there...Perhaps thats what really irritates the americans of midwest, washingtom, idaho florida...
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3. The right to the protection of education.
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So why are the Taliban and other Sharia law countries against education for females?
You got education in Cali and as a Muslim female, were quite lucky to get such a thing, probably don't realize how lucky you are or think about it.
Why are they against education for females?
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You talk about Abu Dhabi as if you have been there a few times- how do you feel the Westerners are treated there?
What are the safest parts in the Middle East for Westerners?
Or is there such thing?
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amorphous entity who has a larger family and more friends than I could ever dream of and speaks for 1.7 billion Moslems;
"The jails in abu dhabi are like four star hotels in your country"
Perhaps Western travel agents should sell tickets then. A cheap holiday. Do they have a swimming pool and room service? How about a sauna or hot tub? Ah, not alcohoic beverages though. That lets the French and the British out. Only teatotling Americans will visit. Do you have to pay to go to jail there or is it free?
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Jesus was from the middle east, he only loved his tribesmen, he didnt even know that people existed in europe,in short, he had no time for the europeans..And I will say no more because I am afraid of the church of england..
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According to you, he only loved his tribesman. According to the Bible, God and Jesus love the whole, wide world. I believe the Bible rather than the words of a mere mortal, self-proclaimed 'exalted' or not. You have no reason to be scared of English churches- that sounds funny and rather odd? Are you scared of the country England as a whole or only its churches?
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Abu Dhabi doesn't have nearly as many prisoners as we do, so it is more difficult for us to accomidate them all, but we do the best we can.
You must know some Abu Dhabis or have traveled there extensively...?
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Perhaps Western travel agents should sell tickets then. A cheap holiday. Do they have a swimming pool and room service? How about a sauna or hot tub? Ah, not alcohoic beverages though. That lets the French and the British out. Only teatotling Americans will visit. Do you have to pay to go to jail there or is it free?
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If one is lucky and ends up in jails in dubai, you can get that too at the doctor's request..The only downside is that after your sentence, which is more like a relaxation holiday, they deport you and you get life time ban from entering UAE..They have room service, and they have swimming pools..They give you menu for lunch,dinner and breakfast..they have internet access..
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You talk about Abu Dhabi as if you have been there a few times- how do you feel the Westerners are treated there?
What are the safest parts in the Middle East for Westerners?
Or is there such thing?
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UAE is the most savest part in the whole world for everyone..Dubai is the safest of them all at this moment of history..I am a mountain dweller, and I have to go to desert from time to time to expearence the other extreme of the landscape..I think to you, dubai will be the virtual world..
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Are you scared of the country England as a whole or only its churches?
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I am not afraid of churches although they are very gloomy and scary, darkness and high ceilings,but I am only afraid of the church of england.
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You must know some Abu Dhabis or have traveled there extensively...?
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As I quoted earlier I have very large family and I speak for 1.7 billion muslims, so it automatically includes UAE..And as I have quoted myself many times that I travel a lot..longitudenly and latitudenly across the planet earth..As far as the treatment of westeners are concerned, well its not that I have ever studied how they are treated..But I dont think they are treated badly or not goodly...
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460. At 7:24pm on 14 Sep 2010, ae1.7 wrote:
If one is lucky and ends up in jails in dubai, you can get that too at the doctor's request..The only downside is that after your sentence, which is more like a relaxation holiday, they deport you and you get life time ban from entering UAE..They have room service, and they have swimming pools..They give you menu for lunch,dinner and breakfast..they have internet access..
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Ok, I must admit that I have over exagirated a little bit..but I did it out of my fondness for the desert....It takes some contacts to get extra facilities like swimming pool and massages and all that..Next time when I go there, I will conduct a serious study about which perks can one get in jail in dubai..and how to get them.
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a religious mountain dweller wrote: I am not afraid of churches although they are very gloomy and scary, darkness and high ceilings,but I am only afraid of the church of england.
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All the churches I have been to are light and airy, cheerful and filled with beautiful welcoming music. But even I have to admit that there are good religious organizations and then there are cults of any or no religion. Religious organizations are good, cults are not. I do not understand why you would fear the Church of England?
...must be something from your past...
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460. At 7:24pm on 14 Sep 2010, ae1.7 wrote:
If one is lucky and ends up in jails in dubai, you can get that too at the doctor's request..The only downside is that after your sentence, which is more like a relaxation holiday, they deport you and you get life time ban from entering UAE..They have room service, and they have swimming pools..They give you menu for lunch,dinner and breakfast..they have internet access..
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Ok, I must admit that I have over exagirated a little bit..but I did it out of my fondness for the desert....It takes some contacts to get extra facilities like swimming pool and massages and all that..Next time when I go there, I will conduct a serious study about which perks can one get in jail in dubai..and how to get them.
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This is why I don't understand some from the ME, like the mountain dweller commenter on here. Why would jail be considered a vacation? Who cares about the menu or other things mr. moutain dweller mentioned- what is worse than being stuck sitting in a jail cell? That has got to be the most awful feeling in the world- trapped.
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All the churches I have been to are light and airy, cheerful and filled with beautiful welcoming music. But even I have to admit that there are good religious organizations and then there are cults of any or no religion. Religious organizations are good, cults are not. I do not understand why you would fear the Church of England?
...must be something from your past...
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The only church that is light and frienly is in vatican, the rest are dark...After lot of thoughts and headaches, I have come to the conclusion, that vatican is where they want the light, the rest they want to keep in darkness..ergo light in vatican, the headquarter, and darkness elsewhere...People are afraid of wmd, iran, taleban, I am afraid of the church of england..Its my right of freedom to be afraid..
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Who cares about the menu or other things mr. moutain dweller mentioned- what is worse than being stuck sitting in a jail cell? That has got to be the most awful feeling in the world- trapped.
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A P-R campaign for the jail in dubai..Even their jails are better than your four stars hotels..Being stuck in jail in usa is the worse thing, compared to that being in jail in dubai is a luxury..
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Mr. ME Mountain Dweller: A P-R campaign for the jail in dubai..Even their jails are better than your four stars hotels..Being stuck in jail in usa is the worse thing, compared to that being in jail in dubai is a luxury..
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So being trapped doesn't bother you? Not being able to feel the wind in your hair, the sun in your eyes, the blue and at night, stars in the sky?
Sounds awful to me, no matter how rich or poor the settings.
As the great Beatles sing, "Money can't buy you love!"
Of course, in some Middle Eastern lands, they have the law of Eye for Eye and Tooth for Tooth. So perhaps the crime is the most important thing of all, as some offenses may require such eye for eye vengeance.
As a female, often the barbaric laws are the worst. I shudder to think of what they do to females in such places.
Especially females who are Islamic.
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I meant, especially females who are not Islamic.
But I guess actually it probably doesn't matter- a female is a female.
And barbaric laws are the most harsh on females.
The shame and honor killings, the whippings/floggings/beatings, rapes, etc.
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to the amorphous entity who has a larger family and more friends than I can ever dream of, speaks for 1.7 billion Moslems, and will investigate the recreational facilities in UAE jails first hand and report back (if and when he ever decides to leave);
"UAE is the most savest part in the whole world for everyone..Dubai is the safest of them all at this moment of history..I am a mountain dweller, and I have to go to desert from time to time to expearence the other extreme of the landscape..I think to you, dubai will be the virtual world.."
Oh really? Not for leaders of Hamas. The Israelis seemed to have had no trouble at all penetrating it and assassinating a Hamas leader right in the hotel room of one of Dubai's best hotels. But then no place is really fully safe from them. Just ask the surviving family of Adolf Eichmann.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7258631/British-threat-to-Israel-over-Dubai-Hamas-assassination.html
Smile! You're on Candid Camera!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ9FVKsdTvg
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Ref 469, Lucy
"And barbaric laws are the most harsh on females."
Sometimes is not even laws, but tradition or a mindset that denigrates or denies the right of women to achieve the same goals and have the same freedoms as men.
In truth, you don't have to go to Islamic countries to find prejudice against women, it exists in our own country, perhaps not overtly but just as despicable. It ranges from the way women are usually portrayed in films and advertising where, more often than not, they appear qas sex object rather than an equal, it can be found in corporate America where women in high management positions are usually a token or a rarety, and it can be found in politics as well. The controversy about Hillary baking cookies comes to mind.
Things are changing for the better, and not a moment too soon, but there are still many obstacles, prejudices, and bigotry left.
We made tremendous progress as a society when Barack Obama was elected; this year, with a high number of women running for Congress and Governorships, we may do the same again and, hopefully, that will not be the end of this very positive trend. Regardless of how minority elected officials and corporate heads perform after they are elected or are appointed, the inclusion of people who until now have been denied the same opportunities afforded to white men since the earliest beginnings of our Republic is a step in the right direction, a sign of maturity, and something we should all be proud of.
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So being trapped doesn't bother you? Not being able to feel the wind in your hair, the sun in your eyes, the blue and at night, stars in the sky?
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its not as if one even registers all these things in the everyday life..However, after sitting in jail, relaxing..you come out, see the desert, the acres and acres of sky at night with tons of stars...wind blowing sometimes making you uncomfortable, but a few cursing words..which favours of jail in dubai will you deny?
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I am thinking of opening my own travel agency in dubai, If I did, I will give you a free week of stay plus, the usual activities package all for free..
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Oh really? Not for leaders of Hamas. The Israelis seemed to have had no trouble at all penetrating it and assassinating a Hamas leader right in the hotel room of one of Dubai's best hotels. But then no place is really fully safe from them. Just ask the surviving family of Adolf Eichmann.
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And since it is the most safest place, thats why the authorities went mad..What? murder in dubai? and lo and behold, the entity turned out to be the culprit not only of murder, but of passport forgery..
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amorphouse entity who has a larger family and more friends than I can ever dream of and speaks for 1.7 billion Moslems;
I congratulate you on your trael agency. I'm sure all of your friends and family will want to book a vacation in a UAE jail immediately and will think only of you when they do and during their stay. I am sure their experience will exceed their expectations based on the picture you've painted.
I can understand what you say. Murder is an everyday occurrance in the Middle East with all the suicide bombings and that but forgery is not a matter to be taken lightly. Small wonder the dubious Dubaians are so upset. The Israelis will have to be even more clever next time. Forewarned is forearmed.
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402. At 5:04pm on 13 Sep 2010, RHCracker wrote
RE: 388. At 02:02am on 13 Sep 2010, patriotaxe
“As far as being ashamed of being an American citizen,Im sure you were already ashamed before this event, as showing American pride is probably too politically incorrect for you .” [sic]
I have heard that “my country right or wrong” line before. Are you proud of the KKK? I am not, I am ashamed of them. Are you proud of the treason and civil war waged to protect the vilest institution, slavery? I am not, nor would I show respect to the rag that commemorates it.
Are you proud of an ancestor who collected the blankets of smallpox patients, and then sold them to the Indians? Are you proud of ancestors who stole their land? Are you proud of broken treaties that guaranteed them the last little bit of the vast continent they had owned, broken when someone decided the resources or right of way was too valuable to let them keep it?
Well, I am not proud of that. I would remind you that the Good Book says, “Pride goeth before the fall.”
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414. At 8:13pm on 13 Sep 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
“I am usually not inclined to engage in intrigue, but I am old enough to recognize that many of the things we see and hear are not spontaneous expressions of dissent or laudable initiatives designed to promote mutual respect and cultural reconciliation, but well crafted and coordinated efforts to pursue an agenda and achieve specific goals.”
I wonder if you have considered an idea that I have been wrestling with for days. These Koran burners, who usually belong to the blind patriotism fringe, are suddenly engaged in activities that put our soldiers in harms way and might make the economic, political and military situation much worse.
I have heard some "fundamentalist" "Christians" praying for the "end times" to come soon. I wonder if some of them, unhappy with God's dilatory pace, have decided to speed up the coming or Armageddon on their own?
Even though you don't live in Gainsville, you have a lot more of these people in your part of the country than around Boston. Have you heard of the "millenialist' types changing from passively accepting God's will to activists trying to force it?
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SaintDominick and JMM, I personaly dislike the frighten people...I have zero tolarance for them...Thats why I generously remind you to carefully read the speech of Ben laden, the one after 9/11...Maybe that will help you to get rid of your anxiety and and paranoia..Think about your grand chilsren their children's children, do you want them to be a mass of paranoia?
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Murder is an everyday occurrance in the Middle East with all the suicide bombings and that but forgery is not a matter to be taken lightly. Small wonder the dubious Dubaians are so upset. The Israelis will have to be even more clever next time. Forewarned is forearmed.
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Murder is an everyday occurance in everywhere else, but Dubai..the entity tried to give a bad name ot dubai by murdering him in dubai...everyone knows why the entity picked this country...Its not as if the entity needed to send hired murderers on forge passport to dubai to kill a hamas leader, it could kill him anywhere else, with less money...Sometimes its not about the murder, but the place of murder, that is more important.
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I congratulate you on your trael agency. I'm sure all of your friends and family will want to book a vacation in a UAE jail immediately and will think only of you when they do and during their stay. I am sure their experience will exceed their expectations based on the picture you've painted.
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Its not for my family or friends, they will demand free of charge everything, and the agency will go bankrupt before its first day, Lots of people looking for extreme or different holiday expearences..
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I'll interupt the discussion of a very serious issue to say that I wish I'd been among the first to respond, and known how to add a link to show Gene Wilder shouting "Elevate Me!" in Mel Brooks' 'Young Frankenstein'. (he meant, "raise the platform")
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A Middle Eastern Mountain Dweller wrote: Its not for my family or friends, they will demand free of charge everything, and the agency will go bankrupt before its first day, Lots of people looking for extreme or different holiday expearences..
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Don't your family and friends work, too? They would probabaly love to go on vacation with you.
Course' there is extreme and then there is EXTREME.
I thought you didn't like foreigners, so why open a travel agency if you don't like foreigners much?
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its not as if one even registers all these things in the everyday life..However, after sitting in jail, relaxing..you come out, see the desert, the acres and acres of sky at night with tons of stars
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I register these things each and every day. But it really just depends on the person. Some love nature, some not so much. That is just the way people are- all different personalities, shapes and sizes. In school, if you are working toward a job working with people, you can learn all the knowledge, but it doesn't fully prepare you for the various personalities of people and how to work with people. Course' I know when someone has a smile and positive attitude, there's a much better chance of being more productive. And most people in USA love smiles.
Its amazing how many stars are floating around the universe. Its like they just go on and on and on...anyone can enjoy them...beautiful scenery like stars are free to enjoy...in the country, when it is clear, there are millions of stars for miles and miles...funny to think we are all so different, yet we are all guided by the same stars...
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Blue and Gray wrote: I'll interupt the discussion of a very serious issue to say that I wish I'd been among the first to respond, and known how to add a link to show Gene Wilder shouting "Elevate Me!" in Mel Brooks' 'Young Frankenstein'. (he meant, "raise the platform")
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Lol. That would have been very funny. I am a HUGE fan of Gene Wilder. He is just naturally funny, charismatic and mesmerizing, from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory to Haunted Honeymoon to The Other Sherlock Holmes to Blazing Saddles to YOung Frankenstein and so many more. Gene Wilders is missed. May he rest in peace forever and ever. :)
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I thought you didn't like foreigners, so why open a travel agency if you don't like foreigners much?
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There is a fine line between me giving forgeiners what they want to do in their spare time, and forgeiners occupying my and my families, friends and some of the 1.7 billion muslims land for whom i speak...Now, as far as registering the movements of stars and the moon and the sun..no one can do it better than the desert dwellers..ofcourse now they have GPS, but, stars shows them direction...stars shows me when its time for a pre-dawn prayer...the dawn prayer, sun shows me when its time for mid day prayer, the evening prayer..the moon tells me when its the new month of islamic calender...See, the muslims register all that as an intregrated part of the their religon..
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So you don't mind entertaining or showing the foreigners around, as long as they are not there to stay?> Interesting...I'll take your word for it. Think I'll just stick in USA, where I feel safe, warm and comfortable.
The true Sun and Stars geniuses were the Mayans. Their calendar set to exact time, more exact than any other clock in the world. The Mayans were guided by the sun and stars day and night, they were some of the most intelligent people who ever existed. Although brutal at times, as well. There are many conspiracy theories about 2012 and what the ancient Mayans foretold. The modern Mayans don't seem too worried, though. I believe there will be many twisters, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, wind storms, nature disasters, etc. that particular year, but I do not believe that it is the end of the world. Only God knows that and it is not up for us to say we know. We just have to adapt and do the best we can with what we have. It is interesting how Muslims pray every couple hours or so. I pray before every meal and before I sleep, so it is also several times a day at different hours- all of free will.
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So you don't mind entertaining or showing the foreigners around, as long as they are not there to stay?
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Correction. I am not anyone's servant who shows and entertain people around..Its not what a owner of a travel agency does.
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St. Dom wrote: Regardless of how minority elected officials and corporate heads perform after they are elected or are appointed, the inclusion of people who until now have been denied the same opportunities afforded to white men since the earliest beginnings of our Republic is a step in the right direction, a sign of maturity, and something we should all be proud of.
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So what is the most important, St. Dom.- knowledge or race?
What if you had two candidates for a job- one that was white with high education and one that was minority with not so good education? Would you pick the one who you think would be the best or the one who you think got less opportuninty?
What if the job was ER or nurse or something medical?
Would you still feel it was the right thing to do?
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Correction. I am not anyone's servant who shows and entertain people around..Its not what a owner of a travel agency does.
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I am not accusing you of being a servant. You are trying to put words in my mouth. Actually, some travel agency owners might show tourists around or hire guides. Makes me think of that comedy My Life in Ruins. Lol.
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476. At 1:19pm on 15 Sep 2010, JMM wrote:
I have heard that “my country right or wrong” line before. Are you proud of the KKK? I am not, I am ashamed of them. Are you proud of the treason and civil war waged to protect the vilest institution, slavery? I am not, nor would I show respect to the rag that commemorates it.
I would suggest you study history before spouting untruths about why the civil war was waged.Let me know if you need a lesson.
I would also let you know Boston was a major hub for the slave trade
One Boston ad of 1732, for example, lists a 19-year-old woman and her 6-month-old infant, to be sold either "together or apart."[5]
African slavery is so much the outstanding feature of the South, in the unthinking view of it, that people often forget there had been slaves in ALL the old colonies. Slaves were auctioned openly in the Market House of Philadelphia; in the shadow of Congregational churches in Rhode Island; in Boston taverns and warehouses; and weekly, sometimes daily, in Merchant's Coffee House of New York. Such Northern heroes of the American Revolution as John Hancock and Benjamin Franklin bought, sold, and owned black people. William Henry Seward, Lincoln's anti-slavery Secretary of State during the Civil War, born in 1801, grew up in Orange County, New York, in a slave-owning family and amid neighbors who owned slaves if they could afford them. The family of Abraham Lincoln himself, when it lived in Pennsylvania in colonial times, owned slaves.[1]
While as Americans we have made some mistakes along the way, no other country has been as generous or has helped as many people in need around the globe,so you keep on slandering your own country and self hating,
as for me,Im proud to live in this great nation .
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488. At 5:01pm on 19 Sep 2010, RHCracker wrote re 476.
Of course I know about the "Triangle Trade" and a lot more. I do love my country for the good things, such as the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the abolition movement, John Brown's heroic [those crazed and doomed] stand, Shays' Rebellion, and a lot more beside.
To ignore the bad is blind patriotism, the kind that is apporved of by people like A. Hitler, B. Mussiolini, and various Russian and Soviet tyrants. Samuel Johnson said, quite rightly, "patriotism is the refuge of the scoundrel". One of the greatest things about the US is that we have usually had the freedom to disagree, to point out the faults of ourselves, our neighbors and mostly of our politicians.
The truth is necessary and is not a slander, I hate neither myself nor my country. It is "my country right or wrong" people who hate what is good and decent about this country and who are constantly trying to destroy it. They also seem to hate anyone who punctures their rosy glow of self-satisfied phoney patriotism with reality based criticism. I forbear to point out those I think are included.
As to references to who knows what about the Civil War [which could be called the War of Southern Aggression" since they kept pushing for expansion of slavery and breaking the compromises meant to stop it], the southern history books are full of lies and distortions, while the northern ones are full of exaggerations and patriotic propaganda.
Since genuinely dispationate history books are full of facts and figures, and fill many shelves, not a few of which I have read, there is neither the time nor bandwidth nor reason for me to post a comprehensive summary. If you are interested, I suppose I could take the time to write a somewhat lengthy bibliography.
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RH wrote: Im proud to live in this great nation.
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Me, too, RH. Me, too.
I love you, USA!!!!! :)
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