Dancing to a dangerous tune?
There's something grotesque about the man who's in day-to-day charge of the most powerful military force the world has ever known having to lift the phone and plead with an eccentric pastor with a flock of around 50.
But Robert Gates did just that, telling Pastor Jones that his Koran burning stunt was putting US servicemen and women at grave risk. Earlier, the president had used an ABC interview to make a direct appeal to Terry Jones "if he was listening".
Perhaps the pressure from the top was too much. At any rate, Mr Jones announced that the Koran burning would be abandoned because the imam in charge had agreed to move the planned Islamic cultural centre near Ground Zero.
This is not true, it turns out. It appears a Florida Muslim leader had spoken to the wife of the New York imam, who said he wasn't available for a meeting before Saturday. On this premise was built the idea that he would give up his plans. But if Terry Jones was looking for a way out, then this flimsy pretext provided it.
But how come an extremist planning a book-burning that would disgrace any time after the Middle Ages has some of the top politicians in the West jerking around like puppets on a string ?
Is it the fault of the 24-hour media that has focused on this planned demonstration by a tiny number of people?
Is it the fault of those even more extreme who might react to an offensive display by murder and terrorism?
Is it the fault of General Petraeus for catapulting this into the headlines in the first place?
Not the last at any rate. The general, and Gates, and the president, realise that the pastor's stunt threatens the very basis of their whole strategy in Afghanistan, Pakistan and indeed the rest of the Muslim world.
They are stressing it is the bomber and killers who are the enemy, not Islam. They've been much more explicit, but it was at the heart of what Bush said as well.
It's not just how those willing to use violence might react, it is that the act would "prove" to many in the Islamic world that Americans were against their religion itself.
It would be better if the threat could have just been ignored and dismissed but everyone knows that if the bonfire was lit, it would be beamed around the world - if not by the main TV networks, by videophone and the internet. Fanatics on both sides of the divide would have used it to inflame the cultural war they so desperately want.
However distasteful it might be, whatever terrible precedents it might set, America's politicians could hardly have remained silent. At least the Muslim world should now have heard, loud and clear, that this is not the will of America, but something that disgusts its leaders.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~05~RS~)
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Has this not been the story of the world? The biggest threats to peace has always been started by small groups or individuals who are irrationally deluded by some imagined call to power.
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Good post Mark but somewhat missing the real reasoning behind the 'running around like headless chickens' scenario.(with respect)
Perhaps your series of three questions which started with 'Is it the fault of.....' should have also included;
'Is it the fault of all world governments in allowing the three monotheistic religions to influence and control our political, educational and economic environments, affording them 'get out clauses' which elevate them above our own laws?
A good example of this is the obscene visit by the Pope in the wake of claims about how he dealt with the child rape cases
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This is the way to get directly to the president it seems.
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Well, how many active followers did Al Qaeda have before 9/11? IE: how many active followers did Bin Laden have before 9/11? No more than 200 (a bit more than 50). How many does he have now? ...Exactly. Now, do you see how many people HE MADE JUMP up and down? This in the singular simple answer.
It is quite curious with (north) western european "puritanism". Is it fear, shortsightedness, lack of basic intelligence or maybe plain old subtle brainwashing of the masses? The author of the above article is ineptly distorting the issue, by sidelining the obvious, thus further feeding the confusion of the illinformed, gullible, "sensible" and news following couch potato masses. Shameful journalism. Unfortunatelly skewed views such as these have been saturating the western media far too long, especially with regards to the Iraq war and now Afganistan.
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Good article.
Let's not shy away from the "bottom line": Religion is based on irrational beliefs and actions. Therefore, if you allow religion to affect global politics, we are in trouble.
Huntington's clash does NOT have to happen. It's time we started removing the platforms from those who actually desire it.
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It would appear that Islam is more powerful than the US constitution's freedom of speech amendment and guaranty of the freedom of expression.
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When muslim 'hate clerics' stood preaching in the streets of London they were promptly deported, and rightly so. Why is this not the same thing. Pastor Jones is a preacher of hate and should be treated like Abu Hamza.
American authorities must act and stop hiding under the sheild of free speech. Muslims have every right to demand something be done to stop this.
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I'm going to organise a burning of Blair's book. I fully expect to see major demonstrations around the world opposing such an action... (Joke). Still absolutely no mention in any of these articles of the regular abuse, churches burned down, false imprisonment, torture and killing of thousands of Christians around the world every year. Yet one 'eccentric' pastor in a small church doing something that I see as very un-Christian makes international news... Sad. Let's not pretend that we need to get rid of 'religion'. That's a totally inadequate argument which has become wearisome on the BBC comments. The truth is much deeper - it is man's heart where there is the problem, it's mankind that causes evil. That's why it's man's heart that needs to be transformed. My life as a Christian is about bringing hope, seeing broken lives changed, loving people with God's love, helping the hurting, reaching out to the downtrodden, serving others, making a difference in this world and supporting mainly young people. I've seen desperate situations totally turned around. If this faith in God is irrational then we live in a messed up world!
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As of Friday morning here in the UK, & looking at the photographic response to the proposed burning of the Koran on the BBC site, to me what is really telling is who has actually burnt what, when and where.
Obviously the pastor will not actually burn anything.
Meantime, loads of other people will be burning stuff associated with America in response to something that actually has not happened.
Personally I'd take their matches away from all of them.
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mrshields2u - u really hit it on the nail here. Burning of the Bible, American Flags are always taking place in the middle east and the muslim world but we dont' hear too much about that. Reason is that ppl in the west are mature about their religion and would not be bothered to instigate violence so that other people are murdered. The day you start using this pathetic pastor as an execuse for recruting of violent extermists is the day you have lost the argument (just like Obama did). Obviously there seem to be no sane person in the muslim world who can come out and say - hey, this is not a "Big Deal", let them burn it. We are confident in our relegion. It is not worth killing innocent people for this.
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What makes this episode stand out is that Mr Jones, despite being a Christian fundamentalist nutcase, and despite being an ordinary man without any academic or political credentials, presents a reasonable and well-informed position, in marked contrast for instance to the 18% of Americans who believe Obama is a Muslim (Pew 2010). He has written a book which, in with the Bible prophecy and similar nonsense, does have a basis in the realities of radical Islam, and Jones seemingly has a better grasp of the facts than Tony Blair and similar apologists of a 'true Islam' which exists only in the realms of wishful thinking. But he is making one fatal mistake. Most Muslims live in countries with Ministries of Information and authoritarian governments controlling all media events, and they have no experience of any other system. They simply would not believe that the planned event was anything but a delliberate, US-government-backed act of war. Mr Jones must be surprised and I suppose pleased by the way this has exploded in the global media, but I doubt if he is ready to put himself in the position of Commander in Chief in a sudden declaration of international war. Let's hope not, anyway.
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"Fanatics on both sides of the cultural divide would have used it to inflame the cultural war they so desperately want."
I've always been struck by how often the opposing sides in conflict seem each to be the obverse of the very same coin, each justifying the existence of the other in a strange symbiosis. I've also been struck by a passage from Mathew: "Love thine enemy". "Love", not agree with, perhaps not even abstain from war with, but love nonetheless-- it may be the one inoculation from becoming the very thing your enemy is.
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I think Mr Mardell is being a little optimistic (on our behalf, perhaps?) when he suggests that "At least the Muslim world should now have heard, loud and clear, that this is not the will of America, but something that disgusts its leaders".
Which part of the 'Muslim world' might be being referred to? Their leaders - who chose to listen or not depending on the rationale of their strategic or pragmatic aims? The 'extremists' - who will choose to hear nothing but 'America fears us'? Or the 'remainder' - who, like us, will hear a sometimes fuzzy and distorted, sometimes clear view according to what is presented in their media and the various distortions applied by the pronouncements of their leaders?
I fear, in other words, that the 'message' "We deplore any religous extremism and will seek to challenge it everywhere" is still very much lost in the wilderness of bigotry, intolerance and hatred (on both sides).
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A predilection for religion is built into mankind, it's part of our makeup, so to call for the worldwide abandonment of religion (often the majority of posts in a debate like this) is like calling for the removal of our brains.
So we're stuck with religion, but what puzzles me is why so many adhere to a religion whose sacred writings provide them with a clear mandate for violence and revenge. Christ preached peace and forgiveness (thus the obvious stupidity of the American pastor) whereas Islam, through the Koran, gives permission to those who feel that their god has been offended to avenge him, bringing death and misery, generally upon people who have nothing to do with the original offence.
It would be wonderful if the Muslim world could pause to look at itself for a moment and make a realistic assessment of its beliefs. Why are they so surprised and outraged that we (non-Muslims) would want to destroy something that encourages our own destruction? Would Allah really create a world which is likely to destroy itself in such a violent manner?
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Both the Christian and Muslim religions have their holy books, both religions know that the other religion is wrong and both religions have their moderates and extremists. Both religions seek to convert adherents of the other religion. Yes, both sides can argue vehemently against the other and both sides can take the moral high ground over things historic. We can all dwell on the negatives if we wish and the media love to portray that. But we could just as easily dwell on the positive things - both religions worship the same God despite the differing name, both religions claim to be a religion based on love and grace, in both religions the vast majority of adherents are at least tolerant of the others. As far as Christians should be concerned, Jesus told us to go "and make disciples of all nations...teaching them to observe all that I commanded you." Nowhere in his commands did he suggest that we go and beat the living daylights out of them or cause them to wage war on half the planet or undertake activities which will generate hatred. Wouldn't it be better if the media portrayed the activities of the moderate majority rather than those of the extremist minorities.
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"Islam is a threat to western civilization."
Western Civilization? what's that?
People in the West are constantly fed this myth that all Muslims seek to destroy us and our way of life by those that would use their military power to control the world's resources, principally oil. This myth is propogated by the media who are also controlled by the ruling elites.
People in the Muslim world are constantly told that all of their misfortunes and hardships are down to the Western oppressors and that we in the west wish to destroy them and their way of life. This is propogated by their corrupt rulers in order to deflect attention from improving their own countries and prevent revolution and by groups like Al-Qaeda, Hamas etc wishing to push their own psychopathic agendas.
Why is Israel allowed to continue to commit crimes against Humanity against the Palestinians? Because it suits the agenda of those in power on all sides (including Hamas)
WAKE UP
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Re #9 "Still absolutely no mention in any of these articles of the regular abuse, churches burned down, false imprisonment, torture and killing of thousands of Christians around the world every year."
But those acts are O.K. because Christians are infidels.
BTW. According to "the great religion of peace" not only Buddhists, Bahaists, Hinduists, Shintoists, Zoroastrians etc., but even atheists are infidels as well.
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@ MrShields2u and Addislig
What do you want? Do you want representatives from your local Mosque to knock on your door and personally apologise for the acts carried out by fundamentalist nutcases? If this is the case then, quid pro quo, surely you should be making your way round to that local Mosque right now to apologise for the actions of this bible-bashing fundamentalist redneck and the Millennia of atrocities carried out by Western countries in the Middle East. Is suspect that you won't be taking such action.
It is a fact that many of us see what we want to see, hence the Mosque on the site of Ground Zero headline. Actually it's an Islamic cultural centre - a place for learning and understanding - and it is not planned to sit on the site of Ground Zero at all (though there should be no problem if was to be constructed there).
It appears that you, and many other narrow-minded souls, have blissfully chosen to ignore some of the great work done by Islamic cultural organisations in Britain in the aftermath of 9/11. In that time I have lived in 4 different cities and, in each, the Islamic community, through various Mosques, have made clear attempts to enlighten the non Islamic community about their culture and way of life - in particular, highlighting that terrorism and fundamentalism have no foundation in the Quoran. This work did not need to be done as a whole community/religion should not be brought to task because of the actions of a small minority of fundamentalists - we do not after all blame the entire Catholic community for the actions of the IRA etc. We should congratulate Islamic communities for their efforts and reflect, with great sadness, that they felt that such was our lack of understanding and suspicion about their religious practices that they had to be seen to be acting in such a way.
All religions are extremely sensitive - we only have to look at America's Bible Belt for evidence of this.
The actions of this pastor were irresponsible, bigoted and extremely dangerous - he is no American patriot
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We all knew he didn't have the guts to go ahead with it.
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Muslims are very peaceful population and they are not so rude what you think. You always imagine them as bad individuals, but they are not. Sometimes i don't understand people. Every single normal person know that the 9/11 attack was by the politicans, and these naive people came from nowhere tells us the attack was by Islamists even there isn't word like that. There's no place for a terror in Islam. Koran teaches us if you kill a person you kill the all population. I hope we will live in a peace world and we can express our freedom speach at the same time respect other religions. Tell me any out of you that you don't have a muslim friend? I really doubt that you don't.
Thank you very much
Love for everyone.
Peace.
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I'm with zee4
Why do we not see prominence given to the persecution of Christians in Islamic nations?
Well done zee4 for reminding us what Christianity stands for - and it isn't burning Q'rans.
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Imagery anyone? Surely this farcical episode has broadcast to the entire world that the Koran is THE MOST IMPORTANT book on the planet. Not just the most important book, the most important item that exists.
Shouldn't the president of the United States have said something like, "Look, this guy, rather than discuss matters dispassionately, is out to intentionally upset people. The rational response is to ignore such people. My friends he intends on burning a few books - paper with black ink. He does not intend to burn any originals. There are millions of Qurans in the world. The existence of the Quran, or the religion of Islam is not in any way threatened by the manner of his gratuitously nasty tiny protest. In America, people have the freedom to buy a book and then burn it; it’s as plain as that. You can buy a copy of our great venerable Constitution and burn it if you’d like; you’d look like an idiot, but you have the freedom to look like an idiot. Of course, Americans don’t have the freedom to burn books belonging to others. Let's just concentrate on finding benign compatibilities between the religions rather than seeking to find hostilities. Now about our plans for the economy..."
To have the President of the USA and the head of the US military show respect for this man's actions by personally pleading with him must be a new low point in US history. Obama should have shown better judgment. The president stooped to the level of Islamists by addressing this issue on their level of emotional immaturity.
But think, Obama, Patraeus and Gates only responded in such a manner because they were confident that many Muslims would not be able to respond proportionately. So really, their reaction in pleading with Pastor Jones reflects a position of non-confidence in the emotional maturity and rationality of many Muslims. I suppose this was only reinforced by Heads of State of Muslim countries asking Obama to get personally involved - or else. Frankly, I think those Heads of State should have had more respect for the US President.
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Mr Shields 2 U I agree totally with your statement the silence from leading Muslim figures is deafening at times. Whether that be through fear or recrimination is hard to judge but all the same it's time for these people to lead by example and show there fellow Muslims that violence is not the answer.
In response to Bad Intentions it's one thing to protest by burning a few books and quite another to support and promote mass murder and holy wars which is what these muslim clerics were effectively doing.
I think overall however people aren't really looking at the bigger picture as to why Western politicians always seem to be bending over backwards to pander to the seemingly violent whims of Islamic extremism.
Does anyone really think that America's appointment of a black president is merely a coincedence against the polar opposite George Bush.
Come on people it's almost as if the American government wrote the script to try and appease the oil rich arab nations and show them how open to multi-culturalism they are rather than to be seen as a bunch of 'hick rednecks' In there endless pursuit of globalisation and one world governance, believe me this will happen eventually, whether that will be for the greater good who knows.
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"Is it the fault of...."
How about apportioning blame where it lies: with people of an irrational and backward mindset who threaten violence and worse if they consider their quaint beliefs 'insulted'.
In the West, we have this quaint belief in tolerance and free speech.
It allows people to say (and do) idiotic things - including burning so-called holy books. After all, no-one has a right not to be 'insulted'.
This sorry affair provides Muslims world-wide the opportunity to ignore an idiotic act and prove, by their apathy, that Islam is, as they claim, a peaceful and tolerant religion.
So, will they?
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I would like to address the fundamental issue. The moral, social and intellectual justification for religion has been proved to be unfounded, immoral and simply wrong. We, as a species, do not require these ancient superstitions, in whatever form they may take. It only brings hatred and tribalism in its worst form. Modern believers, who like to think that religion brings good, only give cover to the extremist. They should re-examine the affects that religion has had throughout the ages and continues to have. In actual fact the extremist are closer to the fundamental and original basis of their faith than any modern believer.
It is a fundamental weakness in the human condition that many feel the need for a God (the thousands of deities that have been invented in our recorded history proves this), but the age of reason is now upon us, allowing us to rise above our base instincts, and I sincerely hope that we can shake away this ancient obsession. Many politicians and leaders feel the same way. I only wish they would have the courage to say so in public.
As an atheist, I do not need a CCTV in the sky to police my activities, or give me morals and to respect others. I find it truly incredible that billions of people feel that they do. As a species, without religion we would still have many problems, their will be good people and bad people, but the world would undoubtedly be a better place.
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"Is it the fault of the 24-hour media that has focused on this planned demonstration by a tiny number of people?"
Yes, of course it is.
And that you people are allowed to turn what is essentially a non-story into a situation where lives are seriously at risk is an absolute disgrace.
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4. At 08:50am on 10 Sep 2010, rasputin1917 wrote:
Well, how many active followers did Al Qaeda have before 9/11? IE: how many active followers did Bin Laden have before 9/11? No more than 200 (a bit more than 50). How many does he have now? ...Exactly. Now, do you see how many people HE MADE JUMP up and down? This in the singular simple answer
The answer to that would be 'it entirely depends on what you call an 'active follower of Bin Ladin'. In 1990 Bin Ladin had enough supporters surplus from the war in Afghanistan to offer to defend Saudi Arabia from Saddam with. The Saudi royal family's refusal of this offer and acceptance of US & coallition forces instead is the root cause of Bin Ladin's feud with the Saudi Royals and the west. Even if you think you have Allah on-side he would have needed a damn site more than 200 to see of Iraq's army (the 3rd biggest on earth at the time).
While 200 close members of Al Qu'eda who actually live and work with Bin Ladin seems a reasonable guess he's a figure head for a philosophy that tens of thousands of muslims more or less support (start with the Taliban... not Al Que'da but most certainly supporters of "team-Bin Ladin").
Far too many westerners seem to think Al Qu'eda just 'popped up' on 9/11 but they are completely ignorant of the USS Cole attacks, the bombing of US embassies in Africa and Clinton's reprisal with cruise missiles against Iraq, Sudan & Afghanistan. An Al Qu'eda cell was even busted in Leicester in 1999 (bad intelligence on their part... they knew Leicester had a massive Asian population but didn't realise it was majority Hindu. They lasted about 10 minutes before the locals reported them).
I served with the UN in Bosnia for a few months and there were all sorts of very scary, very anti-western Islamic fighters roaming around there supporting the Bosnian muslims (more or less... no-one had asked the Bosnians if they wanted a load of extremists from Afghanistan showing up in their country)
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16. At 09:53am on 10 Sep 2010, Steve wrote:
Both the Christian and Muslim religions have their holy books, both religions know that the other religion is wrong and both religions have their moderates and extremists.
Actually they don't. Apart from the issue of Jesus being the son of God rather than the penultimate prophet before Muhammed (and that was decided by a narrow vote between a load of Roman priests 300 years after Christs death) 99.99999% of muslims believe everything in the Bible. Its why plenty of muslim nations like Malaysia put Xmas decorations up and why contrary to some idiots in local government muslims are not offended by Xmas cards etc. Every december I get a load of cards from my arab students and a Malaysian friend who works in the Islamic university of Kuala Lumpur.
Its the perpetuation of the myth that 'muslims want to destroy Christianity' that people like Pastor Jones feed on. Muslims fully recognise that Jews and Christians worship the same God. The vast majority of the muslim worlds problems with us come from political actions carried out in the name of Religion (the crusades, the actions of Israel etc) not the religions themselves. Most Arabs have no problem with the star of David. What they object to is the star of David on the wing of the F-16 dropping bombs on them.
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There is nothing irrational about religion. To suggest this finely balanced and beautiful universe was created by chance is irrational. The statistics are too unlikely for it merely to have been chance.
That said both sides in this dispute have been acting irrationally. Both sides would claim to view God as great however it is a very small view of God that shows him being offended by someone producing another religious book or burning one. Surely if God is all powerful, and i believe he is, he wouldn't need us to go around carrying out his vengence for us.
Perhaps our problem is that as humans we are far less merciful than God actually is. I suggest we let God carry out his own judgement in his own way. If there is any judging to be done it should be of ourselves and our motives.
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It's interesting with regards as to who runs the show. Conspiracy theories always said the Jewish orchestrated everything politically in the world, however the way world leaders are reeling from this proposed act, demonstrates that with the threat of violence from elements within the Islamic faith the Jewish are not the Illuminate.
A Christian fundamentalist burning copies of the Koran incites violence from Muslim groups worldwide. Its all very quick to declare taking up arms.
However has no one thought of the hundreds of US flag burnings, bible burnings and effigy burnings that take place worldwide, have Muslims spared a thought for the national confidence and feelings of Patriotic Americans. And besides surely the act of burning the word of God would result in the wrath of God not the wrath of man.
The threat of violence at every turn is becoming tiresome, if everytime other religions were criticised or items desecrated it was seen as a legitimate cause for worldwide militancy and revolt then there would be a new war every day.
This act of Koran burning is nonsensical and irresponsible, but so is the disproportionate response from both Islam and world leaders. Nothing in this media orchestrated debacle is worth the outcry and neither party is coming out looking good.
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What is most interesting about the whole thing is that the British always struggle withe the concept of free speech and expression. Arrest or ban is this British way of dealing with anything that might upset anyone to the extent that Islamic repression of women is supported and sanctioned at all levels of local and national government. It's about time the British woke up and stopped appeasing the third world treatment of women in a western democracy.
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"At least the Muslim world should now have heard, loud and clear, that this is not the will of America"
I am in an email list that tells me loud and clear that this most certainly is the will of America. In spite of the constitution they truly believe it is a Christian country and they believe Islam is evil. They even write anti-Islam slogans on their guns. That pastor is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Those who harp on about how muslims burn the bible, churches and persecute Christians may have a point, but militant Christians do not go around blowing up aircraft, trains, markets, schools etc, nor do they go on mass killing spree's targetting worshipers of Islam.
This is the real crux of the matter, militant Islam is what militant Christianity was like in the Middle Ages, with all the passion and violence thrown in.
That's why the USA had to act, because not to do so would have lead to more potential violence on the streets of not only the USA, but also those countries deemed to be friends of the USA.
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Tom Briscoet wrote:
Is it the fault of all world governments in allowing the three monotheistic religions to influence and control our political, educational and economic environments, affording them 'get out clauses' which elevate them above our own laws?
No, that is not the case. This has very little to do with religion as similar reactions can be predicted with flag burning, portrait burning and effigy burning - for instance, burning the US flag was seen as illegal for many years, but in more recent time the Supreme Court has declared that it is unconstitutional for a government to ban burning.
And anyway, it is not the organised religions, but the millions upon millions of believers that give the power to influence law.
The truth behind this is a good old mixture:
• The media want a good story and don't care a hoot about the consequences
• The politicians want to be seen as on the ball and caring so want to publically denounce the paster
• The affected religion wants to be seen to protect its beliefs and fears that though this incident is small and meaningless, it could be the thin end of the wedge.
What they all should do is ignore it, but they each fear that if they ignore it, but the other two dont, then they will look stupid.
And so it escalates.
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There are lots of valid statements above, however if you were to remove yourself from the blogs, the rss feeds, the 24 hour news channels for a little while you'd never hear the tiny little voice far, far away in some distant land planning to perform some provocative action. today's news is no longer news, it's sensationalism. It's the flavour of the month, maybe few months.
What would have happened if the media never ran with this story? When will the "news" stop being the soapbox that someone can use in such a ways as pastor Jones. I love this:
"There's something grotesque about the man who's in day-to-day charge of the most powerful military force the world has ever known having to lift the phone and plead with an eccentric pastor with a flock of around 50."
My question is, which news organisations took the eccentric past with a flock of 50 seriously and put an article into my RSS feed? Look at the position you've put into, the man who's in day-to-day charge of the most powerful military force the world.
I gues it isn't fair to blame the reporters, or the editors, or the journalists. If I was to give a 5 year old a console with a big red button, which shouldn't be pressed at just a whim. Is it the child's fault when it presses it?
I guess all have to forgive all, because we certainly don't know what we're doing.
Those of you who can I hope you enjoy your day.
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So we're stuck with religion, but what puzzles me is why so many adhere to a religion whose sacred writings provide them with a clear mandate for violence and revenge. - Dave_123
Because they were brought up by their parents and their society* in that religion, and their religion--like Christianity--tells them there is one way to Heaven, and the alternative is eternal torture of the worst possible kind imaginable in Hell, ad infinitum; after one billion years, there will still be an infinite number of eons** of excruciating torment. For a goodly number, fear is the reason for their adherence to a religion that likely causes more pain and suffering to its believers than to infidels.
* People they presumably trust, especially with their ultimate fate, more than some strangers preaching a contrary belief.
** Or aeons, for some people.
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MaxSceptic wrote:
How about apportioning blame where it lies: with people of an irrational and backward mindset who threaten violence and worse if they consider their quaint beliefs 'insulted'.
You mean the Paster? Yes, I agree with you there.
This sorry affair provides Muslims world-wide the opportunity to ignore an idiotic act and prove, by their apathy, that Islam is, as they claim, a peaceful and tolerant religion.
So, will they?
Yes, most of them do. My Muslim friends think this is silly and are not even interested in reading about it. So much so that they would not even be interested in this blog and the comments.
As for the violent protests - some at least (going by the images the BBC has been publishing) seem very small, and have even included Christians protesting against this idiotic paster.
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Could we avoid using the phrase 'the Muslim world'. It gives the impression that some parts of the world 'belong' to Islam, and that Christians or others don't belong there.
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Is the USA a free country, does it protect freedom of expression. However objectional the Pastor's actions maybe I think Bush and Blair's words and actions have put thousands of civilian and soldiers lives at risk not this Pastor.
The media have created a monster whose opinion will now be sought on Islamic issues even though he is in no representative of the wider Christian community but because he will provide a good soundbite.
It's time for both sides to step back and talk about this in a responsible and grown up manner and then ignore and forget this stupid indvidual.
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As a westerner I feel that I need to point out the following:
When the muslim world get upset we see them burn our flags and representations of our leaders. I find that offensive.
Many Muslim coutries treat those who convert to other faiths which can include imprisonment and worse. This is also offensive.
Do I find Terry Jones act offensive? I guess the answer must be yes.
But there's something very appealing in the sentiment behind it, that when a person overtly shows displeasure toward Islam there's outcry. And our leaders response is one of fear!
We ought to have expressed outrage at offense and injustice in what ever form
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@badintentions:
The radical muslim "hate" clerics" were deported from the UK for advocating war and killing not burning books.
Freedom of Speech, which is indeed a key precept of Bill of Rights, orginating in the federalist papers, is to be protected precisely to enshrine the potential for dialogue on human rights to live a quality of life. The Nobel Economist Amartya Sen has likewise endorsed freedom of choice ,as essential to social agency and the heart of democracy.
Indeed whether we agree or not with the Pastor for burning the Koran, he is entitled to free speech and burning a book, in protest. The author of this article does not fully appreciate why President Obama came to speak himself. So I find this article abit simplistic.
This pastor is simple voicing freedom of speech. He is not breaking any laws. The dangerous problem here is that Islam is a religion and many islamic countries do not endorse freedom of speech with this understanding as separation of state and religion. Freedom is not clearly defined in their constitution. Even if it was, the US apolicy of freedom has been to bomb their countries to take over their oil reserves for this reason in Asia America is already witnessed as the terroists by extremists. Now that the US is portraying itself as peacemakers an activity like burnging the Koran will most certainly ignite fury. therefore the head of the armed forces had not choice but to protest.It would have been far less dangerous tune if the US had never bombed Afghanistan or Iraq.
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We have been told repeatedly since 9/11 and the slaughter of 52 innocent civilians in London, that Islam is a, "Religion of peace". Why then, should anybody be at risk because of the crazy Pastors actions.
Can you imagine any Christian taking arms simply beacuse someone had damaged their key symbol of belief? Islam's true colours show clearly on this issue. Death, violence, suppression of individual belief, world domination by any means. If you are not very afraid you should be.
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This shouldn't even make the news. Another nutter burning a book/flag/whatever. Big deal.
That's what the response should be. But unfortunately, it isn't.
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Having posted at number 6, just two quick answers to those who have seemingly replied:
No.9; Zee4. I’m very pleased that religion works for you personally, and for the examples you quote of lives being turned around. However, it is not a valid counter argument. I could base my future life on a belief in the immutable glory and infallible decision making of tree frogs, and that might well work for me. However, it would still be an irrational belief, with the prospect of a bad outcome if I brought it into a public sphere. I hope the example is not too ridiculous as to cause offence. I do respect religious beliefs – my issue is with them being brought out of the private sphere.
No.15 Dave_123. Thankfully, we are not stuck with religion. The same way we have outgrown extremely powerful facets of religion which seem ridiculous now (animalism, human sacrifice, burning witches etc), we can also outgrow religion. Lots of interesting research around the physical and psychological components of our propensity to be religious in recent years. Please don’t think I’m being confrontational if I suggest you look some up. There’s some great stuff available.
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There's good and bad everywhere - to the left, to the right.
In the Church, in the Mosque, in the Synagogue.
That's humankind for you.
Everything works fine until people get involved, and then it all goes to pot.
As an Atheist, I'm often perplexed by the amount of intolerance to be found in religions that claim to teach the opposite. I'm not dumb enough ( yet ) to think that this applies to everyone who has a faith, but it seems those with the most hatred are those that can shout the loudest; or, to put it another way, it is the empty can that rattles the most.
I don't see how countering one act of religious extremist with another actually achieves anything, other than to pour petrol on the fire ?!!
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The ultimate problem here is that there was no way that the leaders of America could have responded other than to plead with this idiot pastor not to carry out his book burning. No amount of well thought out words and solemn promises that the pastor was a minority nutjob would have stopped muslims around teh world being incited against America because they'd never have heard the message. Partly because many muslim nations have their media controlled by the clerics and leaders, who see it as a good thing to stir up hatred against other religions (Iran being the main example) and partly because the sort of people who are trying to recruit people to their terrorist organisations are quite happy to lie to get people involved. Remember that kerfuffle about the Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet? All those muslims out on the streets burning flags? It wasn't the original cartoons that had them so riled up. It was a cartoon, drawn by a muslim, showing Mohammed having sex with a pig, which was then added to the original cartoons with a claim that that was published. This is the problem. The truly evil, hateful individuals that incite these acts of violence are happy to use any lie to get the ignorant to go along with their hatred. As ever, education is the only cure for bad religion.
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More and more of these cartoons, burning will test Muslims' not being extremist.
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Apparently it is against freedom of speech in the USA to stop the book burning. I thought speech was a verbal action! Forgive my ignorance!
Surely the laws regarding insanity are more than sufficient to lock up the Potty Pastor.
Glad to see world leaders distancing themselves from an act which takes the Potty Pastor to that low level of people who burn flags and effigys of western countries/leaders.
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One single Christian extremist decides to burn the koran and the entire worldwide muslim population demand the deaths of christians, regardless of their condemnation of the pastor's actions. This just goes to show how volatile the muslim population is. How can they blame the actions of one man onto a whole community? They keep reminding us that most muslims are not extremist like Bin Laden and his followers, but when they react in such a violent way whenever an individual decides to do something they don't like, they decide that whole communities (in this case, Christians) should be punished. I get the feeling they are just using this as an excuse.
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25. At 10:22am on 10 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
This sorry affair provides Muslims world-wide the opportunity to ignore an idiotic act and prove, by their apathy, that Islam is, as they claim, a peaceful and tolerant religion.
So, will they?
This is a fairly pathetic argument I've seen many, many times elsewhere.
A westerner does something incredibly provacative yet its in the muslims court as to whether they react or not. Its the equivalent of someone saying their large dog is really safe and friendly then you 'proving its not' by repeatedly poking it with a sharp stick. Whether you feel that Islam is peaceful and tolerant or not Pastor Jones is anything but.
The REAL irony is that there are something like 1.2 billion muslims worldwide and almost all of them will do precisely nothing if this book burning goes ahead. A couple of dozen hotheads WILL retaliate and their actions will be used to blacken the name of every muslim in the world and people like you will seize on this as 'proof' Islam is hostile while completely ignoring the 1.2 billion who don't rise to the provocation.
By the same logic when the 'English Defence League' trashed a load of boutique shoe shops in Nottingham as part of their campaign against Islamic extremism its should 'prove' that all English people are shaven headed racists who'll use any excuse to trash private property.
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I actually sort of feel sorry for Terry Jones, mildly.
You have one group of people who dislike him for his non-constructive idea to burn Korans.
But now you have another group of people who dislike him for allegedly being a coward and backing down from his bonfire plans.
The first group's antagonism has not diminished since the retreat, and he's lost the support of the second. Both groups together make up the large majority of the population. So, now 'everybody' dislikes the guy for some reason or another.
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Can someone explain how this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11252987
is any different to Al Que'da cutting heads off on webcam? Yet another example of a hand full of vicious idiots making the world a damn site more dangerous for the rest of us.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
11. At 09:32am on 10 Sep 2010, AddisLig wrote:
“Reason is that ppl in the west are mature about their religion and would not be bothered to instigate violence so that other people are murdered.”
Obviously you never lived in Ireland during the Troubles - Christians killing Christians over the particular flavour of Christianity - or the Balkans :-)
The only significant differences I see between Christianity and Islam is that most Christians have given up believing that the Bible is the absolute word of God in the same way as the Muslims believe in the Koran and have instead acquired a good degree of tolerance as a result.
Up until quite recently many Christians would have quite happily slaughtered infidel non-believers the world over for not believing in the one true faith – the list of religious wars started by Christians is extensive.
Thankfully the Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians aren’t very common nowadays (mostly in the US) but let’s not kid ourselves that Christianity, as a fundamentalist faith, is any better in how it treats those that have fallen from the righteous path i.e. non-Christians.
The long-term solution, of course, is education and tolerance – there is more to the universe than what is written in a couple of books and even what is written can be misinterpreted.
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Interesting to note that this story actually first surfaced on the internet in July, according to an interviewee on the News.
But the US media recently went into a feeding frenzy over it.
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We can scrap all religions tomorrow. It still won't make a difference to the fact the issues today are caused by the meddling of US, British and other governments meddling in the politics of the Middle Eastern region for their own means (to ensure they get the oil that is there). Treat people like they are inferior then you will cause offence.
Freedom of speech is the most dangerous thing that we use these days to hide behind. I have the right to say what I want but it's not always appropriate to use it. It's sometimes the wisest thing to say nothing and walk away from a situation rather than trying to pour petrol on to a fire.
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Unfortunately, this nutter represents, albeit in extreme form, the religious right as described in "American Theocracy", by Kevin Phillips.
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Julian writes that "The moral, social and intellectual justification for religion has been proved to be unfounded, immoral and simply wrong."
Really? "Proved" by whom, I wonder? Stephen Hawking?
Thus far in the history of mankind, the existence of God has not been proven or disproven. It may be fashionable in pseudo-intellectual circles at present to deny God's existence, as it has been in the past, but this, too, ebbs and flows.
Julian also writes that thousands of deities have been "invented" in our recorded history. Ah, well, perhaps it takes a while to separate the wheat from the chaffe. As has been pointed out by other posters, the world's three major religions all worship the same God. They disagree about various aspects of the nature of this God, and, yes, these differences have led people to commit all manner of atrocities in the name of God. But this is a fault of man, not of God.
It would, indeed, be an interesting social experiment to see how people might have developed in the absence of religion. But I doubt it would be the sort of utopia atheists like Julian seem to envision. People harm other people for all sorts of reasons other than religion, after all. In my city, people have been murdered for their tennis shoes.
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Jesus told us to go "and make disciples of all nations...teaching them to observe all that I commanded you."
You may believe that, and other religions have their equivalents, but doesn't that just get in the way? Along with teachings about how Christians are special, chosen, called out to be the "light in a dark world" it leads to a belief set that would seem to mark everyone else down, mark them as "Wrong", prevent the kind of discourse that could actually help us all get on a bit better. If you believe in things like Total Depravity and Goodness being entirely from The Spirit in spite of our Sinful Nature then how can you look at other people in a positive way? Maybe my asking that is like the Christians who ask how atheists can be moral. I just need to understand it.
If only Christianity could lose the insistence that it "has to be Christ" and step back and start looking at the common good we all share. Maybe many Christians do, but this is not what is taught. If you go out to convert others then you can never appreciate the positive that they have to offer.
I expect that a lot of this fighting is more political than religious, with religion as the excuse and the tool for mass rallying. If only we could actually put aside all the differences and work together - but that also means putting aside the insistence that the others share the same religion as you.
Sometimes I think the religions that complain the most about idolatry being a sin are the most idolatrous, whether it's worship of the idea of Christ or the elevation of the status of a book. They can also seem the most ego-centric at times. If you base your identity on the necessity of Christ existing and giving you meaning that you crave then do you expect problems if something comes in and challenges or questions that? Many Christians, many Muslims, would seem to get past that, but it seems despite not because of the religion at times - at least as the religion is presented.
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cruyff_14 - I think you are missing the point here. I am not being narrow minded indeed - infact i could be a muslim for all you know.
What I am stating here is that it is easy to play the victim all the time while ignoring all the attrocities commited by your fellow muslims. For example, I dont see muslims going on the street in their thousands and protesting about the Darfur situation (why? is that because they are all black and dont matter?), while on the other it only takes a simple thing like buring a book for some followers of Islam (and it is not few bad apples) to go out and seek to MURDER people. It seems easy to offend a Muslim
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Why are the American rulers acting as if they have NO backbone? Obama saying that the acts of one pastor of some small church will be a recruitment bonanza for al-Qaeda, and Gen Petraeus saying the American folks and forces will be targeted because of this, etc only goes to show the extent of submissiveness that has crept into the system. So, what happened to all those claims of breaking the back of al-Qaeda? Compare this with the attitude of Mr.Feisal Abdul Rauf who says moving the mosque away will 'anger' Muslims. He has no sensitivity for the feelings of those whose near and dear died due to the dastardly acts of the islamic terrorists. Either ways, the liberal and secular thinking people will be USED by the fundamentalists (and the terrorists behind them) to meet their objectives.
America needs to rethink its approach to Muslim extremists, some in the garb of intellectuals. Otherwise, they will probably feel the same heat like other countries who are at the receiving end of these terrorists. Pres. Obama, Ms. Clinton, Gen. Gen. David Petraeus need to know that they need not bend too much before these elements. Please check out how Saudi Arabia treats the religious texts of others when they arrive in Saudi ports. Is that religious tolerance? Is that respect of other religions by Islam and its followers? Why turn a blind eye to it? Why such double standards?
They use your laws to break you, and you will be made to watch from the sidelines. It is happening in India, and elsewhere. One of the terrorists, who attacked Mumbai, and caught alive is going in appeal, and in Pakistan they are doing everything "lawfully" to obstruct the delivery of justice in this case.
The price the liberal world will pay for allowing the terrorists to use the liberal laws is going to be very harsh.
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43. At 11:12am on 10 Sep 2010, Phil J wrote:
Can you imagine any Christian taking arms simply beacuse someone had damaged their key symbol of belief?
Errr.... yes. At one end of the spectrum you have the outcry over Gerry Springer the Opera which at times got fairly nasty, then you have people like Pastor Jones killing abortion doctors and blowing up their clinics, even more extreme is the 500 year old conflict between Catholic and Protestant over absolutely trivial areas of doctrine. Worst of all were the crusades, the inquisition and the suppression of the Cathars (1 million dead). Frankly 1000 years of history will show that "Christians" will kill in the name of their faith with almost no provocation whatsoever.
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At what point does the Koran become sacrosanct? What if as a printer I smudge the ink on page 3 and destroy it? What if I crease the pages? A page gets ripped? My child scribbles on it? What if I fail to print a chapter?
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31. At 10:47am on 10 Sep 2010, iBev wrote:
"However has no one thought of the hundreds of US flag burnings, bible burnings and effigy burnings that take place worldwide, have Muslims spared a thought for the national confidence and feelings of Patriotic Americans. And besides surely the act of burning the word of God would result in the wrath of God not the wrath of man."
No. Everyone is mentioning these things.... the aim of muslims in the middle east when they burn US flags is EXACTLY the same motivation Pastor Jones has: to offend & provoke. The guys burning the stars and stripes do so precisely because it WILL offend 'patriotic americans'
What I don't see is why Muslims in America should somehow be held accountable for the actions of muslims in the middle east. This is a peculiar manifestation of US racism: during WW2 Japanese Americans were considered 'Japanese' and locked up whilst Italian and German Americans were considered 'American' and had all their constitutional rights respected. Its the same again... half of New York is Eastern European or Russian yet being white and Christian they're 'American' and not held liable for what Russians in Russia do or say, yet the same rule does not apply to Muslim americans.
To use your phrase: 'what no one has considered' again I'd suggest 'what no one has considered' is why Pastor Jones should be allowed to use his constitutional right of free expression to force New York muslims to give up their constitutional right to freedom of religion. I've noticed that those who consider themselves 'patriotic americans' and who can recite the constitution by heart are the first to attempt to take those rights from people they consider to be 'unpatriotic americans'
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I am opposed to this book burning - I take the view that we should not deliberate distress any person for no reason.
However it raises an interesting point.
He clearly has a constitutional right to do this. But I would argue he should choose to not exercise this right in the interests of not harming other people.
What of the Muslims who choose to build a mosque at ground zero? Certainly they have a constitutional right to do this. But if the same argument is followed, shouldn't they choose not to exercise the right now they know it will cause distress? There are a lot of other places they could build a mosque.
In this case, surely the book burning should be firmly linked to the mosque building. They don't build, he don't burn.
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50. "One single Christian extremist decides to burn the koran and the entire worldwide muslim population demand the deaths of christians, regardless of their condemnation of the pastor's actions. This just goes to show how volatile the muslim population is. How can they blame the actions of one man onto a whole community?"
Probably just the same way as you're now saying that the entire Muslim world is now demanding the deaths of Christians. Do you have any concept of the hypocrisy in those two sentences. You claim muslims blame all christians for acts of a few and then you immediately turn round and blame all muslims for the acts of a few of their number. Think a bit more before you type next time.
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Peter_Sym @51 wrote:
This is a fairly pathetic argument I've seen many, many times elsewhere.
As I understand it, basically you are saying that nobody must do or say anything that 'insults' a certain portion of a certain religion.
If one accept's that premise and self-censors oneself then one has already accepted 'Dhimmitude' - for our very existence as 'infidels' is an insult to some.
I do not and will not accept this view, and will fight for my right of free speech and expression.
Anyone viewing the rioting and rampaging mobs around the world, and still thinks that this is not a 'clash of civilisations' is self-delusional.
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#47 "Partly because many muslim nations have their media controlled by the clerics and leaders, who see it as a good thing to stir up hatred against other religions (Iran being the main example) and partly because the sort of people who are trying to recruit people to their terrorist organisations are quite happy to lie to get people involved........ This is the problem. The truly evil, hateful individuals that incite these acts of violence are happy to use any lie to get the ignorant to go along with their hatred."
I couldn't agree more. The clue to anyone with half a brain was the curious amount of professionally made Danish flags instantly available to burn. The guys in the Swat valley who burn homemade US flags often can't even get the colours of the stripes right, yet overnight in Tehran were literally thousands of Danish flags that were probably even stamped 'made in Copenhagen'. A more obvious orchestration I've never seen.
Mind you... how much money must Salman Rushdie have made? The Iranians must have bought thousands of copies of his book just to burn it!
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Peter_Sym @53,
Your comparison is facile.
These criminals are not claiming divine inspiration for their vile acts, and their crimes are not being celebrated or justified by their co-religionists or ideological supporters around the globe.
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I find it hard to understand why this story was made news worthy in the first place. I mean really, a small time pastor with apparently an attendance of 50 people to his church has caused such a problem.
If this had not been reported in the worlds media then no one would have known. The small minded, old fashioned views of a clearly troubled and delusional individual would have not been heard. He may have gone ahead and burnt the books but it would have been a worthless act that would have gone unnoticed.
Now due to the massive media exposure the racist and extreme opinions of this man now are seen to hold some worth - which clearly is very wrong.
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I'm so glad that Pastor Jones knows the truth, that he has a hotline to God, and that he is purely acting out of a desire to spread God's love to all mankind. The Dover World Outreach Centre - first Gainesville, then the world. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic. "Empty barrels make the most noise."
Now, who was that other Pastor Jones who knew it all? Jim, wasn't it? Came to a bad end, as I recall.
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This isn't simply a religious issue.
The pastor is entitled to express his opinion but there needs to be diplomacy in how that is done. There is a social, cultural, economic impact to his conduct he seems illequiped to even contemplate. What was he trying to achieve? to prove? to say?
The message he sends is so overwhelmingly negative, the cultural implications misunderstood. To that pastor the book is a book, it is so much more than that to the believers of the content.
I have heard him talk about 'peaceful' Christianity like fundamentalist Christians have never resulted or caused any violence. He needs to be sent on a history course, the crusades weren't exactly bloodless, nor were the witch trials, nor were the various religious (Christian based) European wars through the centuries...and so it goes on. A little humility would go a long way.
Fundamentalism in any sphere of life presents problems to the mainstream, his conduct makes him a fundamentalist, the controversy he has caused underlining the point. The vast majority of muslims deplore violence as much as everyone deplores the pastor's stated intentions. He just needs to have a little more humility and respect for others. His congregation might then grow.
On a slightly separate (but equally important) note we live in a global world and as might be expected, global media coverage is ubiquitous. Such media coverage, mainstream or You tubed is unavoidable. However this is not an excuse for the mainstream outlets to avoid their own moral obligation to act (and report) in a fair and balanced manner. Yes film/interview the pastor, but balance that with more time reporting the majority view clarifying that everyone thinks he's nuts, his conduct irresponsible and ill-advised.
'Defeating' terrorism, or extremism is not going to be possible through violence. One persons terrorist is another's freedom fighter. As unpalatable as it may sound to those on the fringe, dialogue, understanding, education and time will bring the only solutions. The military call it winning hearts and minds and its the most important weapon in any battlefield. Thing is that in our global society the battlefield is everywhere- and the pastor is letting the side down in his plans. He should read the book before condemning it and should educate himself about what it means to other people before even remotely considering burning it.
I wish him well and hope he has a re-think (forgiveness after all being a religious trait apparently). Equally I condemn his views and conduct and want Muslims around the world to know that like any country/group or society there are unfortunately extreme elements that do not represent the majority. We should all be working together as the irony is that we all want the same thing. Peace and prosperity. The majority of people support that view and deplore his conduct in the same way as you do.
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Fair point, Obama had to get involved but what excuse do our politicians have for fueling this fire? Terry Jones won't listen to Hague, Blair, Cameron who all just like the sound of their own voices
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The intended actions of this American Pastor are repugnant, but are they any less repugnant than the burning of western flags and the effigies of western leaders, passing Fatwas on foreign western nationals and academics etc.
What do we see here, one man demonstrates his hate of another religion, the media laps it all up, then masses of citizens of that religion retaliate, by preaching hate and violence against another entire civilisation.
I do not see the President of Indonesia getting quite so vocal, when a suicide bomber destroys an entire mosque, kills 50 women and children and by pure chance destroys a few copies of the Koran.
I am a western non practising Christian, living in an Islamic country and I have many moderate muslim friends. They will put the actions of this pastor down to that a single publicity seeking crackpot. What can not be ignored though is the hatred of the west exhibited in many thousands of citizens in radicalised countries, where the level of education is poor which is disproportionate to this American Pastors actions.
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"They are stressing it is the bomber and killers who are the enemy, not Islam. They've been much more explicit, but it was at the heart of what Bush said as well."
Judge a man by what he does, not what he says. America comes out with a lot of rubbish all the time, but the facts are undeniable - hundreds and thousands of Muslims dead in the Middle East as a result of American (and American led) bombers, helicopters, artillery and gunfire. Millions of Muslims displaced, made homeless, had their local area devastated by American troops. Millions of Muslims without clean water, hospitals, education (prior to the US invasion Iraq had the highest literacy rate in the entire Middle East - beating US Allies such as Saudi Arabia and UAE). This is the undeniable legacy that America has left.
Now tell me they are not against the Muslims.
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If America locked this idiot up, there would be no problem.
I know he is protected by freedom of speech, but surely there is other American laws regarding racism which he is breaking. Even if there isn't, sometimes common sense should prevail.
The legal system is a joke. We've got fat people suing fast food chains, smokers suing cigarette companies and now biggots burning religious books.
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Mark Mardell says: “How come an extremist planning a book-burning that would disgrace any time after the Middle Ages has some of the top politicians in the West jerking around like puppets on a string?”
Well, quite! But they are jerking around to stop something seen as anti-Islamic, we generally don’t see much “jerking around” by Muslim leaders when we see news footage of thousands of Muslims burning American flags and holding up banners calling for death to cartoonists, novelists or journalists, etc etc.
Nor do we see much contrition or even acknowledgement from Muslim leaders when our leaders condemn the mediaeval punishments meted out under Sharia law, such as stoning for adulterers, or flogging for drinking alcohol, watching pornography, holding hands in the street or for women wearing trousers, etc etc.
Mardell then says: “At least the Muslim world should now have heard, loud and clear, that this is not the will of America, but something that disgusts its leaders.”
Well, so what? Should we then assume that the silence at best, connivance and sponsorship at worst, of Muslim leaders on such issues as suicide bombing and mediaeval punishments imply that they not disgusted by them?
As usual, we are told that Islam is a peace-loving religion. Well, maybe so, but there is a pretty large contingent of Muslims, living all around the world, who beg to differ; who read in their bible approval of indiscriminate violence against non-believers, or even followers of the diferent sects of the same religion.
At this point, I should say that I abhor all religions and all religious belief, and consider it to be atavistic in the extreme and a symptom of mental illness.
So I don’t therefore understand why the actions of one whack-job and his 50 supporting whack-jobs raises so much stink in the West, whilst the governments of a number of large, wealthy Islamic nations can continue to provide sanctuary, and financial and logistical support for active terrorism against the West.
All of this is just more appeasement of Islamic terrorists, their progenitors and their supporters. We are terrified of upsetting them in case they send their bombers against us or stop selling us oil.
And as a keen student of history, and someone who tries to learn from it, I would say that appeasement hasn’t usually proven to be a very successful long-term strategy.
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Comedians will dining out on this story for years. Once again, america is the laughing stock of the World.
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@Nick #50
"and the entire worldwide muslim population demand the deaths of christians"
Talking of extremism, isn't that a bit extreme? Some people have done these things, by no means all!
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Speaking of fanatics, did not Mr Tony Blair have some communication with his god that persuaded him he was doing the right thing to commit thousands of British personnel to armed conflict in Iraq?
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Wasn't it Terry Jones who said "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"?
Rather apt I think.
Far better if we all ignored the attempts by both sides to inflame the situation. If we ignore religion then it will die out.
A rational world would be a far better place.
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Coalition of the wilting is spot on.
The blame lies firmly at the door of the media for blowing this out of all proportion and endangering the lives of Christian minorities worldwide. That you, the media, have so little concern for Christians has been long evident in your complete lack of reporting of any incident where Christians are victims or are persecuted against.
Your refusal to highlight anything about the persecution of the Copts of Egypt whilst covering every incident regarding the Palestinians and Israelis virtually next door speaks volumes. You are not impartial, you have an agenda and your news is therefore propaganda—I no longer trust a single thing you tell me!
You have driven this paster to this, and your words like extremeist, fundamentalist have fallen on deaf ears. Just as I know the only Holy book burning that has so far happened recently was in Gaza, and it was not the koran that was burnt!
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64. At 12:29pm on 10 Sep 2010, Jules wrote:
At what point does the Koran become sacrosanct? What if as a printer I smudge the ink on page 3 and destroy it? What if I crease the pages? A page gets ripped? My child scribbles on it? What if I fail to print a chapter?
Have you ever heard that the makers of those persian rugs that sell for £20,000+ intentionally make a tiny mistake because only Allah is perfect? Mistakes and accidents are as permissible in the Islamic world as the christian. As you (should and almost certainly do) know full well accidents and mistakes happen. There is a big difference between accidentally creasing a page and making a bonfire of 200 copies of a book.
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@mattfrombrum
Although I can't agree with your 1st Paragraph, I think you need to read some more, the rest of what you say is spot on.
If this Supreme being is so offended let it sort it out itself. We human beings have enough of our own worries and challenges to have to step in to defend an almighty, supreme being that can create worlds and life and read the minds of billions of people at once. If it's petty minded and infantile enough to be bothered by other petty and infantile actions then let it sort out its own grievances.
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Surely the only people to 'blame' here are the media for making sure this story was front page news around the world, and demonstrating to the extremists of all persuations that they hold the power, not the silent majority who would have carried on as normal had you need decided to make sure everyone on the planet was aware of this insignificant little man's plans.
Shame on the BBC and the world's media for stirring up trouble where none exists, and then blaming everyone else...
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As someone who has no belief in God this episode just illustrates what a completely insane world we live in. Here we have two religions prepared to insult each other, incite and conduct violence and, in the words of one world leader, "threaten world peace". All because they have different views about how to worship the same God for whom there is absolutley no evidence that their God exists in the first place. I know it is easier said than done, but surely it is time the human race moved on from this insanity.
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Another example of us in the west being subjugated to being politically correct while the middle east do what they want but moan like mad when it's them that are at the wrong end of it.
Muslims need to police their own for a change and then maybe just maybe the rest of the world will start to give them respect. Earn it.
Oh yeah and stop being so volatile - Muslims seem like a 2 year old having temper tantrums.
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"However distasteful it might be, whatever terrible precedents it might set, America's politicians could hardly have remained silent. At least the Muslim world should now have heard, loud and clear, that this is not the will of America, but something that disgusts its leaders."
Well it seems as if at least those crowds pictured on the BBC website weren't listening, or deliberately ignored the message. They were burning effigies of Pres. Obama in Pakistan weren't they?
The moslem world was always going to delight in using this an excuse for more American-bashing.
Did anyone really expect the most hate-filled ethno-religious group on earth to do otherwise?
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#63 Peter Sym
What a silly statement Peter. The facts that little old ladies were burned at the stake hundreds of years ago, 'freaks' were exhibited in Victorian London and bears baited in Mediaeval towns says nothing about how we behave today and neither do the Crusades say anything about how Christians today behave.
Protests v Catholics now more extreme than blowing up Abortion clinics?!?! Crazy! The only recent example of the two sides coming to violence is Ireland which might actually have something to do with the predominantly protestant, loyalist North being a relict of occupation. Elsewhere Protestants and Catholics live perfectly happily side by side. As is often the case, religion is used as an excuse. Christianity is the antithesis of violence and any that use such means are un-Christian. Thankfully, true followers have become more Christian as time has passed, just has the 'free' West has actually become free - women's rights, votes for blacks etc.
As a Christian I would be uncomfortable to see a cross vandalised, because of its significance, but not driven to violence. I would soon forget about it. It's only a thing.
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68. At 12:33pm on 10 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
Peter_Sym @51 wrote:
This is a fairly pathetic argument I've seen many, many times elsewhere.
As I understand it, basically you are saying that nobody must do or say anything that 'insults' a certain portion of a certain religion.
No. Thats the exact opposite of what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that deliberately provoking someone to 'prove' that they're not peaceful is a ridiculous argument. I'm also saying that holding 1.2 billion muslims who have never supported or carried out any act of violence responsible for the handful who do is also ridiculous. The fact that this standard is also only applied to muslims is racist.
Whenever the IRA killed a few kids the millions who claim to be 'Irish' on St Patricks day were never held collectively guilty where they? The entire worlds catholic population isn't held to be collectively responsible for paedophile priests (or the IRA). So why is a different standard applied to muslims? Precious few in the Irish republic or Boston ever condemned IRA violence so the same argument about muslim non-condemnation applies.
Incidentally no-one SHOULD 'insult' certain areas of religion. I like beer and bacon sandwiches but I'm not going to wash a bacon sandwich down with a can of lager on the steps of a mosque because I've got more respect. I'm not going to take a portable DVD player into a church and watch 'Jerry Springer the opera' despite not believing in god and finding Stewart Lee very funny. I'd suggest anyone who WOULD do those things isn't 'excercising their rights' but is being deliberately offensive and is likely to end up in an really unpleasant situation.
There is a difference between debating the validity of a religious belief and insulting it too. Too few people on blogs seem to realise this.
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With all the publicity around this I don't suppose it will be long before some nutcase suggests that Jones runs for President
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Both protesting sides are hypocrites to their religion.
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1.The crazy pastor should not be stopped from expressing his opinion, unless he is doing so in a manner which causes a public safety issue, I believe that having a bonfire is normally OK if it's controlled.
2.What he chooses to put on that bonfire, as applies to any of us who have one at home, is entirely up to him (unless of course it's people).
3.The fact that he is clearly inciting recial hatred by creating "IBTKD" is a different matter and one which he should be prosecuted for.
There is an arguement that the media is metaphorically adding fuel to the flames, however, the third point I made (inciting recial hatred) would suggest it is in the public interest to report this, so I can't really augue with that.
This does not, however, take away from the fact that many muslims, certainly in muslim countries are over sensitive about what poses a threat to their religion and way of life. Just take a look at the fanatical demonstrations in Afghanistan right now. It's the most disproportionate reaction one could possibly imagine and is typical of the sort of mindless rants we seem to see month in month out, where flags are burnt and "death to the west" is the community chant. No one ever demonstrates by calmly outlining why such offence has been taken to an event or comment and suggests that the sort of actions that have csusing offence should be considered inappropriate by the origintaing countries authorities. It's just burn this, shout that, shoot your rifle and rile each other up by burning and shouting and shooting more than the person next door. What is wrong with these people?!! Why are they not laughing and mocking the insignificance of this deranged, biblebelt idiot who is clearly been transported to modern day Florida from Salem c.1692 through some traversable worm-hole in spacetime continuum.
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70. At 12:38pm on 10 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
Peter_Sym @53,
Your comparison is facile.
These criminals are not claiming divine inspiration for their vile acts, and their crimes are not being celebrated or justified by their co-religionists or ideological supporters around the globe.
Facile? You seem to think there's a difference in getting your throat slit because someone claims they're doing it for God or because they're doing it for fun. I don't.... the end result is the same. Cut throats and corpses.
Incidentally with some of the statements Bush (who sent these guys out to Afghanistan in the first place) has come out with it would appear that certain people in Washington DO think they're doing this stuff for God.
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#71 8FX
"I find it hard to understand why this story was made news worthy in the first place."
Because it would have got around the world anyway - Youtube etc - and the authorities would have been accused of complicity if they hadn't criticised it.
#77 Bad Intentions
"I know he is protected by freedom of speech, but surely there is other American laws regarding racism which he is breaking. Even if there isn't, sometimes common sense should prevail."
So we should just lock people up even if there is no law supporting it...? Wow! You support totalitarianism then, rather like Islamic or Communist countries. How is burning a book racist? It doesn't belong to any particular race.
It matters not in the slightest if some extreme, ignorant Muslims in far off countries 'should' react with violence, the fact is many would and so the President and heads of the military have to get involved. As others have said: Many muslims live in totalitarian states where there are no rights to free speech and action. They just do not understand the freedom of people in the West and so, if the president hadn't got involved, it would be seen as a government orchestrated and sanctioned event, just as these things are in the Middle East. Many there still call on the US President to "stop this crazy man". They just have no comprehension of individual freedom and would react against the US as a whole, its service personel and citizens abroad.
That isn't to say ALL muslims are the same, just that there are poor, ignorant areas in which this very much would be the case.
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The sight of angry Muslims burning the USA flag - and simultaneously denouncing the proposed burning of the Koran - sums it all up. Islam is right, everything else is wrong. The tragedy for free speech is that most Western "leaders" haven't the moral or intellectual capacity to recognise this, let alone challenge it.
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It is interesting just how much the powers that be panic when an individual preempts the very actions they will soon carry out themselves.
The wars and instability that so threaten the west ideals are all religiously based no matter how they would wish that not to be so. Israel Palestine, Iraq Afghanistan even ireland all religious divided Muslim Jew Christian, where ever you look at conflict war or terror religion is right there at its heart. It may be the extreme elements that hijack the faith for violent sick twisted reasons, but it is religion behind which they hide their real intent, so it will be the world religions which pay the ultimate price soon. If there are no muslims, then there are no muslim extremists to blow them selves up.
All world religions will be band under the authority of the UN, and this book burning will seem like a picnic in the park when it happens.
All of this is actually written for all to see in the book of revelations. Ps 83 v 18 is where you need to start if you really want to understand where we are headed very very soon.
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Ref 95, Peter Sym
"Incidentally with some of the statements Bush (who sent these guys out to Afghanistan in the first place) has come out with it would appear that certain people in Washington DO think they're doing this stuff for God."
The references to crusades, divine righteousness, and assertions such as our God is better than their God, limit the difference in the acts being perpetrated in the name of God to micro Vs macro terms.
I assure you, however, that most Americans do not share those views and that the only reason so many backed the invasion and war in Iraq was because of the effectivenes of a superbly crafted disinformation campaign.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I understand the reaction of those who believe their sacred books are the word of God, a fact that re-emphasizes that need to respect one another regardless of what our personal views may be on a specific subject, but the idea of an obscure Pastor and his 50-person church in Gainesville, Florida, generating so much world attention and such a crisis is baffling.
This man is an opportunists, he does not represent America, he does not represent Christianity and, nevertheless, the world community has given a forum and a credibility he does not deserve. Sadly, his newsly acquired notoriety suggests he may become a major player in our wsociety and politics in months to come.
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What an absurd figure this Christian clergyman man, Pastor Jones, cuts, with his bigoted fanaticism, paranoid view of the world and ridiculous facial hair.
We can only be grateful that the Muslim world doesn't have religious leaders like that.
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88. At 1:06pm on 10 Sep 2010, JonE wrote:
Another example of us in the west being subjugated to being politically correct while the middle east do what they want but moan like mad when it's them that are at the wrong end of it.
Muslims need to police their own for a change and then maybe just maybe the rest of the world will start to give them respect. Earn it.
You're missing one major point: the middle east is equivalent to Europe in the 17th century in Saudi and the 19th in Kuwait. We're better than them. The fact that we don't force women to wear Burqas or carrying out stoning proves it (is to not stone someone being 'politically correct'?')
More importantly HOW THE HELL are muslims in the US, UK, France etc expected to "police" what muslims in the middle east do? The irony of people like you speaking as if all the worlds muslims are united as if they're one nation is that thats EXACTLY what people like Bin Ladin want! All the worlds muslims all under Sharia law. Demanding that some muslim in New York is meant to stop some other muslims burning flags in Pakistan is like expecting some Italian chip shop owner in Glasgow to sort out the mafia!
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1.Some Muslims wish to build a mosque near ground zero.Well within their rights but insensitive.
2.A pastor decides to burn the Koran.Very foolish but within his rights.
3.2 is postponed.
4. Some Muslims burn the US flag and shout "death to Christians".
5.The world leaders condemn the pastor-quite rightly-but there is a deafening silence over the Musalim reaction.
I wonder why? Would Mark Mardell care to explain that one?
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"...how come an extremist planning a book-burning that would disgrace any time after the Middle Ages has some of the top politicians in the West jerking around like puppets on a string?"
Because it's dominated the media since the story broke, and the media effectively sets the agenda that the politicans then have to respond to?
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#99 "I assure you, however, that most Americans do not share those views and that the only reason so many backed the invasion and war in Iraq was because of the effectivenes of a superbly crafted disinformation campaign."
You know that, I know that...... so why does anyone think its any different in the muslim world? The Danish Flag burning in Tehran was exactly the same sort of stunt Bush pulled and plenty of Iranians believed what their media said too. Just like us.
Maybe if more americans actually spoke to regular muslims there'd be a lot less problems.
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The pastor is an idiot but it's a sad day for freedom of speech if he is silenced by threats of violence.
I particularly object to our Government stating that it is unacceptable for anyone to intentionally offend a member of any religion. So people who believe in the supernatural deserve special protection, while those who base their world view on science and reason are fair game?
We need some politicians with the balls to stand up for freedom of speech and human rights.
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# 50. At 11:33am on 10 Sep 2010, Nick wrote:
"One single Christian extremist decides to burn the koran and the entire worldwide muslim population demand the deaths of christians, regardless of their condemnation of the pastor's actions. This just goes to show how volatile the muslim population is. How can they blame the actions of one man onto a whole community"
There are over 1,500,000,000 Muslims in the world - c a quarter of the world's population
And they all now 'demand the death of Christians'?
Was their a plebiscite?
Or did they perhaps sign a petition?
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Pastor Jones should never have been given a pedestal by the media to provoke such events? His opinions and actions may of been accessable through youtube etc. but it is the media who profit. If he was demonstrating on the street he would be dismissed as a delusional fundamentalist and dismissed or arrested for inciting violence.
Religous and polital utopia will never exist but tolerance and respect can.
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# 82. At 12:53pm on 10 Sep 2010, Tyrbiter wrote:
"Wasn't it Terry Jones who said "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"?"
It was indeed Monty Python's Terry Jones. Dressed as a woman. Called Mandy.
First the demagogue Palin. Now a Terry Jones. Clearly we are at the End of Times, as forseen in Monty Python's Little Red Book, and any day now the other Four Horsemen of the Pythonesque, John Cleese, Michael Palin, Eric Idle and Terry Gilliam, shall appear on the horizon, bringing Dead Parrots in their wake. And great shall be the tumult thereof, I should think.
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This whole scenraio is completely absurd. Why the hell has a lunatic pastor with congregation of 50 been given so much credence??
The fact that there is so much media exposure has morphed the planned Koran burning in to an event more important than it deserves to be. The US authorities should have banned it and the grotesque incident swept under the carpet. Instead we actually have world leaders and the media creating a huge discourse. Yes, Terry Jones' actions are deplorable but the fool should not be in the spotlight!
Here's a thought......could the media/government be blowing the event up in order to destablise the Afghanistan and the Middle East further?? If so hasn't it worked well!!
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You see, if cannabis was legal now, we wouldn't be having these problems...
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What the author of the article seems to forget is that Robert gates is bound by the America Constitution and the law, more specifically those parts of both which pertain to freedom of speech. As the law stands, the Koran burning, while utterly barbaric and stupid beyond belief, is perfectly legal. To point out a similar piece of British legislation that went 900 years un noticed, was a bylaw in chester allowing someone to shoot a welshman, as long as he did it after midnight and with a longbow. There are all sorts of loopholes in law, and until they create an act which prohibits being stupid (unlikely), such incidents will continue to crop up.
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8. At 09:24am on 10 Sep 2010, Bad Intentions wrote:
“When muslim 'hate clerics' stood preaching in the streets of London they were promptly deported, and rightly so. Why is this not the same thing. Pastor Jones is a preacher of hate and should be treated like Abu Hamza.
American authorities must act and stop hiding under the sheild of free speech. Muslims have every right to demand something be done to stop this.”
We can not deport or imprison or silence an American citizen. Nor can we do the same to every foolish, misguided or hateful person. In the US the KKK, Communists and religious nut-cases are all entitled to speak their piece as long as they do not advocate violence.
You could retaliate by threatening to burn a Bible or two. You could protest outside this idiot’s “church.” But more than that is unconstitutional.
RE: 16. At 09:53am on 10 Sep 2010, Steve
Good points. The problem is that right-wing fundamentalist “Christians” neither like nor follow Jesus’ wimpy ideas. They much prefer the muscular smiting of the OT. They really should call themselves Leviticans rather than Christians.
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#96 Cav
"How is burning a book racist? It doesn't belong to any particular race."
Ok poor choice of words. It's Sectarianism.
"They just have no comprehension of individual freedom and would react against the US as a whole, its service personel and citizens abroad"
Rather like the way America reacted to 9/11 against Afghanistan and Iraq as a whole?
I hate extremism in every form be it so called "muslim" extremists or mad pastors, and I was only looking for the pastor to be punished not America as a whole. Not looking for him to be hanged, a fine or community service would do just fine.
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# 91 Peter_Sym
"Whenever the IRA killed a few kids the millions who claim to be 'Irish' on St Patricks day were never held collectively guilty where they? The entire worlds catholic population isn't held to be collectively responsible for paedophile priests (or the IRA). So why is a different standard applied to muslims? Precious few in the Irish republic or Boston ever condemned IRA violence so the same argument about muslim non-condemnation applies."
True, except for the last sentence - whatever about Boston, politicians and church leaders in Ireland were blue in the face condemning the various IRA atrocities, and the IRA would have had only marginal support from the general public.
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112. At 2:04pm on 10 Sep 2010, TheGrassAintGreener wrote:
You see, if cannabis was legal now, we wouldn't be having these problems...
There are certain people in the world (starting with Pastor Jones) need stronger drugs than cannabis.
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I can well understand western leaders trying to distance themselves from such an event but in Obama's case he is probably also anxious to play down the fact that a large number of US citizens probably share Terry Jones' views and would most likely happily attend the book burning tomorrow. It's easy to attack one book burner as a nutter with a tiny church, far harder to attack the protesters in New York over their demonstrations against the proposed Mosque near Ground Zero. Will Obama make an appeal to them? I doubt it very much.
On the other hand the hundreds on the streets in Afghanistan, three wounded by gun shots, the burning of flags and effigies and shouts of 'death to Christians' kind of make the pastor's point for him that, while not evil, even the majority of muslims seem to be hysterical, fanatical and exhibit extreme behaviour at the drop of a hat.
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I believe these clashes are inevitable. Maybe it's time we had these discussions and worked through our differences, even if things look abysmal while we are doing it.
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#116. I presume from your tag that you live in Dublin? The condemnation of IRA atrocities in Dublin was never reported here but I've no reason to doubt your word. I suspect one of my distant relatives was up to no good as she ended up murdered in Dundalk and the killers were never found. Whatever she did involved sailing between Dundalk and Ostend a lot so I can guess. I grew up in Glasgow and the various communities there tended to keep their heads down and not say anything that could be twisted by the media. As a result despite having the same ethnic mix as Belfast we had no trouble with terrorists of either affiliation. For that reason I'm somewhat sympathetic to your regular muslim who just wants to keep his head down and live a normal life.
Its the same with muslims. Google 'muslim condemnation of terrorism' and you'll find page after page of Fatwa against muslim terrorists issued by various muslim councils and Imans right across the western world (and probably further but I don't speak arabic) yet how many people here claim 'how about muslims actually speak out against violence?'
They're speaking loud and clear but the media isn't repeating.
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Not that I would condone the Pastor's plans, but protests in Afghanistan lead to burning of the American flag (I'm British, not offended by it, but realise how sensitive patriotic Americans are about it), for what? Some old cleric thought he might burn their holy book.
He's not even done it, he'd planned to, yet here we are, with the Media circus making this ridiculous story, their ratings "cash cow" for a couple of days, and people burning "ol' Glory".
Firstly, shame on the media for fanning the flames of this story.
Secondly, shame on the protestors who deem that the best way show how outraged they are by the planned burning of their book, is by burning the US flag.
Thirdly, shame on the politicians who have sent this ridiculous juggernaut on it's way.
The Pastor has lost his freedom of speech, whilst no doubt having to sit by and watch those he was protesting against, burn his country's flag, one of the reasons he started this whole idea I imagine.
Islamic protestors have shown themselves to be intolerant of other peoples views and demanding of double standards.
And thanks to the media circus, if the Pastor did go ahead with this, he'd probably end up dead.
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What I find ironic, as a person was raised Hindu, is that Christianity, Islam and Judaism are so close to each other in terms of their belief system and ideology that it drives me bonkers to understand what the heck it is that they are fighting out. You wanna different belief system and different way of looking at things? Look eastward....India through Japan. (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, etc etc). They should merge the big three Abraham-ic religions into one, so they can stop hating each other...and then only perhaps we will have peace until the merged religion finds another target to hate...
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I doubt if the Muslim world will learn the larger lesson. In America even the most odious crackpot has the right of freedom of speech and expression, and there is nothing the most powerful government in the world can do to silence him.
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Personally, I'm sick of the sight of Muslims ranting and burning something Western.
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A 'verbal' spark could jolly well cause an horrendous inferno. That is what the pastor has done. Intemperate comments have unleashed total outrage. One can sympathize with Muslim protesters on this issue as they hold the Koran as a very sacred book of the Islamic faith. No Christian would like the Bible to be treated with disrespect. Of course American leaders will try their utmost to calm the flames of outrage. But the villain of the piece, Pastor Jones, has a lot of explaining to do and should be put on probation for inciting religious hate. He should not be allowed to practise as a pastor any longer. Sowing hatred is not the job of a pastor!
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51. At 11:34am on 10 Sep 2010, Peter_Sym wrote RE 25. At 10:22am on 10 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic
an irrational and disproportionate argument. A small group of people burning a bible would be the proportionate response. Make an effigy of the idiot pastor holding a real Bible and burn it on Youtube and then compare the reaction of Westerners to a real act to the reactions of millions of Muslims to the suggestion that such an act would be committed.
This post is just another proof that Muslims are even less rational than “Christian” extremists. How can someone state that burning a bunch of paper, even high quality and expensive paper, deserves the death penalty? How can this action, even if ill intentioned, justify such outrageous responses?
AND # 65. At 12:32pm “why Pastor Jones should be allowed to use his constitutional right of free expression to force New York muslims to give up their constitutional right to freedom of religion.”
You have no idea what “freedom of speech” means. It is not something allowed, it is an inherent and inalienable right. As to people trying to infringe other people’s rights. The key is “trying” because they should not succeed. This being an imperfect world, the will succeed sometimes, but hopefully not often and hopefully the injustice will be redressed.
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This is pure insanity. It's absolutely surreal seeing how this is unfolding and how people are depicting the situation in the media.
Let's have a moment of clarity here; this started because Muslims are choosing to build a Mosque deliberately close to Ground Zero. Is it within their right in the US, a country that respects freedom of religion? Yes. But is it wise, is it sensible? No it is not. This is the flashpoint for this whole thing. A decision made by Muslims who don't care about the controversy and anger it provokes. Their decision is supported by liberals as part of their quest to placate Muslims and depict Islam as a peaceful, compatible part of a western democray like the US. They support the Mosque knowing that the majority of Americans think it is a bad idea, knowing that it would be deeply offensive and cause people like the Pastor to react.
Now, while everyone is screaming about the Pastor burning the Koran because it is offensive to Muslims, nobody seems to care one bit that that the construction of Mosque in the first place is offensive to many Americans. Why the double-standard? The supposedly moderate Muslims in the US and their liberal supporters clearly believe Muslims can and should get away with offending people, they are above reproach. Yet nobody has a right to react, nobody should do anything to offend Muslims. The situation is always portrayed as the Muslims being the victims, while we're always supposedly unjustly offending. The foundation of the debate is centered on that double-standard. We're submitting to them, as a society we are accepting the fact that Muslims see their religion as supreme, above our culture and our laws. Muslims are special and deserve special treatment.
The people who are defending the construction of the Mosque are saying Islam is a peaceful religion that can coexist in a state of equality with other religions and ideologies. Yet in the next breath they say actions of the Pastor and his followers will offend those peaceful Muslims to the point that they are going to start blowing themselves up and causing carnage and chaos around the globe! We should let Muslims do what they want, but we cannot dare protest against Muslims. That pretty much justifies the pastor and validates the anti-Muslim sentiments doesn't it? The "real" Muslims shouldn't be getting violent now should they? Only the "isolated extremists" right? So why should we pander to the "isolated extremists"?
The fact of the matter is that we're submitting to Islam. It's undeniable. Look at the favoritism given by Obama to Muslims. While Obama says the pastor has the right to do the Koran burning but shouldn't because it's offensive, he says that the Muslims have the right to build the Mosque and SHOULD do it despite the fact that it's offensive. Muslims can desecrate hallowed ground in our country, and do what they're doing right now in Afghanistan and burning our symbols, but we cannot do the same.
We are at war with Islam and we're losing it.
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"cruyff_14 wrote
The actions of this pastor were irresponsible, bigoted and extremely dangerous - he is no American patriot "
True, but his actions were hardly as irresponsible, bigoted or dangerous as that of the Islamic world! Maybe you can explain why the peace loving Islam is involved in clashes througout the entire world from Australia, Phillipines, Thailand, India, Sri Lanka, Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, Israel, Europe, Russia and the US? However, since your comments were more in tune with the views of the BBC and mine goes against their views, yours was published and mine probably will never be.
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120. At 2:22pm on 10 Sep 2010, Peter_Sym wrote:
"#116. I presume from your tag that you live in Dublin?"
What gave me away? ;-)
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If the point of the book burning was to show that elements within the Islamic faith are extremist, violent and intolerant of other religious views, he can now cancell it. The saddly predictable over reaction just proved his point.
Its about time the same tolerance was shown to religious minorities in Islamic states, where it isn't books but people that are at risk.
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It's hard to believe that this is happening. Pastor Jones appears to have become an attention seeking missile and is relishing his sudden appearance in the limelight, but is missing the point that his is the type who gets Christianity a bad name. That aside, you would think that a personal call from the SoS for defence telling him that his bigotry and stupidity would be measured in American lives would have made some difference!
On the other side of the coin, corrupt leaders with questionable democratic mandates across the Muslim world are up in arms about something that hasn't actually happened. As ever uneducated and ridiculously excitable people are being encouraged onto the streets all over the world to protest, sometimes at the cost of their own lives, about something... that hasn't actually happened!
Marl Mardell is right when he says that this is a gift to those who relish some sort of cultural confrontation. Pastor Jones should be reminded very clearly where his responsibilities lie and the various rent-a-mob religious crazies should go home and learn to read!
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I love the term "Islamophobia" used to describe those who have any sort of aversion to the religion. Now we have a pastor threatening to burn 200 Korans, backing down after a cacophony of terrified voices begged him not to do so, including Petraious (sp?), Hillary, Obama and nearly everyone else in the Western world.
The fact is, the entire western world is miserably Islamophobic, worried witless about what the Muslims will do if we offend them.
Except one guy. The last person in the western world who is not afraid of the Muslims, the last person who remains NON-Islamophobic is this obscure pastor because he is the last person who, if the Muslims get their noses out of joint, could absolutely give a damn.
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When travelling in Egypt, Kuwait and Libanon, being involved in business life and film production, meeting people from all levels of society - I can confirm what has been stated previously in this blog many times; that we are not so different, and that people and media in Europe and USA need a lot more enlightenment regarding the islamic faith and it's view on christianity.
I was sitting on a bench in a chuch in Cairo, when my egyptian guide proudly told me, that Jesus had been there. It was the way he said it. I'd never in my church going life experienced Jesus mentioned with such pride - and such reality in the narration. Clearly to this muslim man, Jesus was not a question of believing, he was. I said: "Really..?" and he replied: "Yes - he was in trouble in his homeland, so we (egyptians) protected him." I had no doubt that Jesus was considered very sacred and important - and this was confirmed again and again to me by people I met in the Middle East.
Next we were sitting on wonderful carpets in a beautiful mosk in Cairo and my guide, again very proud, stated that he and his country fellow men thought of Moses as an egyptian.
Many has written in this blog, that our world is confused. I'd say: "Only if we let it be". To me, positive reality is all around us and all I've experienced when travelling was people, like myself, but from another culture - reaching out.
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#96 Cav
To say this would be broadcast via Youtube or other means is fair enough, I agree that would probably happen, but don't you think if this was the case it may not of caused such mass worldwide hysteria. Out of the millions of Youtube videos uploaded everyday how many actually become so massive that many people worldwide see it. The answer is a very small percentage.
I agree with #86 citizenloz
Surely the only people to 'blame' here are the media for making sure this story was front page news around the world, and demonstrating to the extremists of all persuations that they hold the power, not the silent majority who would have carried on as normal had you need decided to make sure everyone on the planet was aware of this insignificant little man's plans.
Shame on the BBC and the world's media for stirring up trouble where none exists, and then blaming everyone else...
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#118 " On the other hand the hundreds on the streets in Afghanistan, three wounded by gun shots, the burning of flags and effigies and shouts of 'death to Christians' kind of make the pastor's point for him that, while not evil, even the majority of muslims seem to be hysterical, fanatical and exhibit extreme behaviour at the drop of a hat. "
Firstly it was three muslims shot by a (Western) private security firm. You might want to think about that.
More importantly how the hell do you go from the actions of a few hundred in Afghanistan (a stone age country thats been bombed silly for the past 30 years and where almost every man carries an AK47 on his shoulder) somehow proving that the majority of muslims (nearly 1.5 billion!) are the same? Has there been riots in Bradford or Oldham? How many have been shot in Antwerp or Rotterdam?
When 750 million muslims all come out on the streets protesting THEN you can tell me the majority think that way. 6 out of the 6 muslims I work with are just shaking their head over this whole sorry business.
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Great post Mark,
Unfortunately as important as the media is to us all for keeping up with current events; it also becomes a tool which can empower an ignorant insignificant person like pastor Jones.
In as far as I appreciate the media for providing me with needed information, oftentimes, I blame it for helping to create international tension.
The media is powerful. The media can be tool bringing humanity together to offer help as with Haiti and Pakistan, however, it can be used as a weapon to create worldwide pandemonium feeding on human ignorance.
The media is indeed a business. What better way to score ratings and money than catering to the human hunger for knowledge? News agencies and reporters need to be more conscious of the consequences of what they report. This is not a suggestion for censorship; it's a call for responsibility and higher measurement of content. There's a child's game where you whisper a sentence into the ear of another and pass the sentence along. By the time it gets to the last person it's a completely different sentence. Unfortunately that is a perfect example of what happens to news. Interpretation is personal. I have read many articles pertaining to the pastor Jones Qur'an threat and the story isn't solid. Pastor Jones is a silly stupid man from a dot on the globe. He has been given too much attention helping transform him into a man with the power to launch Armageddon. The media granted him that power.
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The simple fact is that we live in a world full of hypocrisies, irrationalities, contradictions and, worst of all, manipulation.
I think we can all agree that certain individuals and groups in this world need to be ‘controlled’ for the safety of the majority, as we all know what could potentially happen if the world was left to its own devices with no rules and regulations in place.
Education is obviously the key to teaching people the difference between right/wrong and good/bad, but unfortunately being educated does not automatically guarantee that a human becomes a ‘good’ person.
The frightening part about all of this is that the actions of one human can actually cause such an extreme reaction from a great number of people (remember he was just another relatively unknown man until the recent media circus made him famous). Isn’t it scary to think that extremists from all religions and beliefs are watching this event and probably thinking how easy it has become to cause an international outrage?
Globalisation, technology and information sharing have all helped tremendously in our continuous quest to evolve and enhance the human race; however they also clearly contribute to the many problems we face in this world when they are used in the wrong way. It all goes back to that word ‘manipulation’ again and I’m afraid that far too many humans are easily manipulated by the media and people in positions of power.
Having said all of this, I still have faith in the good people of this world and hope that one day there can be world peace (or at least something that is a significant improvement on what we have now).
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To the above people commenting that religion is irrational: What is the independent basis of rationality itself, if you abandon the idea of the supernatural? For rationality to have a basis that is independent of one's biological, socio-economic and other observable circumstances, it must originate independently of the observable universe or 'Nature'. Thus, rationality must have a basis that is 'above-Nature', 'beyond-Nature' or 'supernatural'. The view that the supernatural does not exist can itself be dismissed as founded entirely upon the speaker's biological, socio-economic or other observable circumstances, because the speaker has abandoned a basis for rationality that originates independently of the biological etc circumstances in which it is observed to occur. No?
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There will come a day when all people will be educated enough to know why and how we came to exist and not have to rely on a work of fiction to base their lives on.
I wont be around to see it, it will be long after i have gone and a lot of people have to die before it comes to pass.
Perhaps it would be better for all religions to be banned and books burned then everyone has at least been treat the same and we can move on as a race.
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Know your enemy the saying goes. The desperately attention seeker Terry Jones, should read the Koran instead of burning it. He demonstrated his narrow mindedness, ignorance & lack of processed thoughts. We have dangerous groups on both sides of the divide. But the I fear the lunatics in the Bible belt have access to nuclear weapons that won't hesitate to use to accelerate the so called ' End of the World".
T J Khamas
Ireland
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The controversy over the new displaced persons exhibit in Berlin (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4788167.stm) is orders of magnitude more interesting than this bosh.
Lets either send the righteous Pastor and his congregation on an extended goodwill mission to Southern Afghanistan -- or lets just move on.
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123. At 2:27pm on 10 Sep 2010, MilwaukeeRay wrote:
I doubt if the Muslim world will learn the larger lesson. In America even the most odious crackpot has the right of freedom of speech and expression, and there is nothing the most powerful government in the world can do to silence him.
You know why they won't learn that lesson? They won't believe it could be so. In pretty much every majority muslim country you have a pretty despotic government if you're lucky or absolute monarchy that thinks its living in Tudor times if you're unlucky (and in most cases these leaders were put in power by Britain about 1920 and kept their by the US). No-one is allowed to speak up if the message isn't what the govt wants you to say. As such despite what Obama, Gates etc say (which won't be broadcast in Riyad, Tehran or Kabul anyway) that fact that Pastor Jones can say and do whatever the hell he likes will be taken as US govt permission to do it because the arab world simply can't imagine a different way of life.
Incidentally I think the REALLY big lesson from this is that absolute freedom of speech is a bad idea because there's always someone takes it too far.
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[103. At 1:50pm on 10 Sep 2010, Peter_Sym wrote:
More importantly HOW THE HELL are muslims in the US, UK, France etc expected to "police" what muslims in the middle east do? ]
Do we not constantly hear (and I have seen it posted on the BBC) that if you hurt or offend one Moslem, you hurt/offend them all? That would indicate that they regard themselves as one - so if part of that one hurts/offends a non-Muslim, are they not ALL responsible??
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126. At 2:37pm on 10 Sep 2010, JMM wrote:
51. At 11:34am on 10 Sep 2010, Peter_Sym wrote RE 25. At 10:22am on 10 Sep 2010, MaxSceptic
an irrational and disproportionate argument. A small group of people burning a bible would be the proportionate response. Make an effigy of the idiot pastor holding a real Bible and burn it on Youtube and then compare the reaction of Westerners to a real act to the reactions of millions of Muslims to the suggestion that such an act would be committed.
This post is just another proof that Muslims are even less rational than “Christian” extremists. How can someone state that burning a bunch of paper, even high quality and expensive paper, deserves the death penalty? How can this action, even if ill intentioned, justify such outrageous responses?
What is wrong with you? Can't you tell the difference between 'Muslims' and 'A few muslims'. If Obama says something does he speak for all 300 million americans? It frightens me that a nation so stupid that it thinks 300 Afghans = all muslims in the world has so much power.
However as for your second bit:
You have no idea what “freedom of speech” means. It is not something allowed, it is an inherent and inalienable right.
You're right I have no idea what it is. In most of Europe we have laws limiting people from starting wars by mouthing off. In YOUR nation freedom of speech is an "inhernet and inalienable right" (although I suspect there's certain things you wouldn't say in certain parts of the USA) but only because your govt respects whats on the constitution. In the rest of the world what you can say is 'allowed' which is why what you hear from the Arab world is only what their leaders allow the people to say. Anyone standing up in Tehran saying anything positive about the US is going be silenced fast.
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"But how come an extremist planning a book-burning that would disgrace any time after the Middle Ages has some of the top politicians in the West jerking around like puppets on a string ?"
Because they are cowards and traitors unwilling to defend our constitutional rights, unwilling to uphold their oath of office. In fact they would rather repress our rights as demonstrated by this shabby display by Obama, Gates, Clinton, and Patraeus instead of standing up and saying we have an inalienable right to speak our minds freely in public in our own country including burning books as a display of contempt by some of us no matter who it offends.
"The general, and Gates, and the president, realise that the pastor's stunt threatens the very basis of their whole strategy in Afghanistan, Pakistan and indeed the rest of the Muslim world."
Then it is time for a new strategy, one that is not dependent on winning hearts and minds or nation building but finding and killing the enemy. If America is not going to fight to win then it should not be fighting there or anywhere else at all, we should get out starting today.
"It would be better if the threat could have just been ignored and dismissed but everyone knows that if the bonfire was lit, it would be beamed around the world"
All the more reason then to light it.
"At least the Muslim world should now have heard, loud and clear, that this is not the will of America, but something that disgusts its leaders."
NO! It doesn't disgust them, it frightens them. It raises the possibility that we might actually have to fight a war. Even a world war. The problem is that it is already being fought against us whether we want to admit it or not. The enemy will never be more vulnerable than he is now. If they want to fight us, now would be the best time to bring it on and end it once and for all.
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#127 The fact of the matter is that we're submitting to Islam. It's undeniable. Look at the favoritism given by Obama to Muslims. While Obama says the pastor has the right to do the Koran burning but shouldn't because it's offensive, he says that the Muslims have the right to build the Mosque and SHOULD do it despite the fact that it's offensive. Muslims can desecrate hallowed ground in our country,
The footprint of the twin towers might be hallowed ground, but several blocks away next to a pawn shop and a strip club? That part of New York is a toilet. Nor are they even 'building' a mosque. They're renovating a derelict building.
Incidentally how far away from ground zero does it have to be before it stops being 'hallowed ground'? There are people in California trying to stop a mosque being built. Thats about 3000 miles from ground zero. England is closer!
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#132 (and others) have you considered an other option? Pastor Jones faith is so strong that he's certain he'll be straight into heaven and actually wants to be martyred by a muslim extremist to rally the troops and get the crusade started?
I can find you plenty of other examples of Christians more than happy to die for their cause. There is NOTHING more dangerous than someone who wants to die for a cause (whether its a muslim suicide bomber, a japanese kamikaze pilot, or 15th century protestant bishop)
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I agree to a large extent with Mark. I do believe the media and just about anyone who has had an opportunity to talk has made Mr Jones look important which in my view was his purpose all along. I am a muslim and i find what he had planned offensive as i would if the reverse were the case and some muslim wanted to burn the bible. However, by splashing it all over the world, we all have succeeded in giving credibility to a has been who should be ignored at the best of times
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Reply to Ralph_Q6.
The burden of proof is not on me. I am not the one who makes extraordinary claims. “Faith” is proof of what you personally believe, not on the authenticity of it. Just because I cannot disprove the existence of God does not mean ipso-facto that He exists. If I claimed that there is an all powerful invisible man flying around Jupiter, you cannot disprove it, but I think rightly, you would be an atheist on this particular claim. The onus would be on me to prove it (I don’t think there is by the way)
Regarding all the atrocities done in the name of religion and your comment that “This is a fault of man, not of God”. Religion is just too easy I feel, you can thank God when it is appropriate, or blame man when it is not. Doesn’t this all depend on your own particular perspective? When extremist cause mayhem, they are thanking God and you are saying it is the fault of man. Who is correct? It can’t be both of you.
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Whether you believe in God or not, you will have to agree that
Muslims and Cristians seem to forget that we all share the Ten Commandments.
The most significant is the first: "There is only ONE God."
Thus we have something in common.
The next is "That thou shalt not take his name in vain."
Then why do people from both religions act as though they are doing what he tells them and acting in his stead? That is the meaning of this commandment.
God is merciful and has no need of morons to spoil his name amongst mankind.
If someone told you that God was speaking to them, would you think them sane? I doubt it, so why does the media give these idiots publicity?
In a time when mankind has at its disposal the means of individual communication where we can talk worldwide to each other; why do we hate and fear so much?
God Bless.
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133. At 2:46pm on 10 Sep 2010, eli7abeth wrote:]
I had the same experience in Cairo - someone also offered to show me the site of the house where the Holy Family stayed during their stay in Egypt. It's a shame however that the Copts there seem to be more and more on the receiving end of violence and intolerance in their own country!
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Mr Mardell,
The biggest threat to the world is and always will be ignorance, which is what is at play here. But this perfidious Pastor [and let’s not mistake – extremely dangerous] could only have caused the damage he has with the help of the press. Is it not time the press assume a little more responsibility for inflaming fires that can cause such devastating results? This man is a sad, nefarious, attention seeking and uneducated soul in the outback of America. You don’t need any qualifications in America to become a Pastor – you just need a following. He has no theological credibility, but the press have given him gravitas he does not deserve and now he is almost as dangerous as a nuclear bomb. Good grief – where are those crocodiles when we need them…
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CJ Vasani, I see your point, but when you look close up there are a lot of differences, for instance christianity has many sects, and protestants and catholics alone would vociferously protest any attempt to merge them. So not going to happen. Christianity and Islam have many similarities, but just as many differences.
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Check out "Letter from God to Man" by Dan Le Sac vs Scroobius Pip. Really hits the proverbial nail. Give it a blast on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KnGNOiFll4). If the url gets blocked, look out for the one that shows the lyrics on a notepad. Very thought provoking.
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Same old tired 'debate'.
Send him to Afghanistan with a Quran and some money for some matches and let the Afghans deal with him. That way everyone gets a burning.
The media and that includes the BBC has to take a serious look at its role in all this. Why not report efforts to forge understanding and peace instead of division?
Or is that against your editorial policy?
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KENT:
"Now, while everyone is screaming about the Pastor burning the Koran because it is offensive to Muslims, nobody seems to care one bit that that the construction of Mosque in the first place is offensive to many Americans. Why the double-standard?"
The difference is that building somewhere to gather and worship is a normal thing for a religion to do.
Wherease, organising a book burning of a rival religion is not normal.
However, none of this discussion would be necessary if the media was able or willing to show some restraint for once.
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Monie;
"Muslims need to be pitied because they are not responsible for their actions, their relegion is."
Everyone is responsible for their own actions, that is why we pass and enforce laws. The only exceptions are those a court judges to be legally insane based on the expert testimony of psychiatrists. Are you suggesting that followers of Islam are legally insane?
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You comment that any such burning would have been "beamed around the world". Surely, despite the stupid foolishness of such an action, it has been even more stupid of the media to have reported it in any way. If you hadn't then no-one outside his congregation would have known about it.
Sometimes the media has to learn to keep its mouth shut.
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Why is it that we, in the UK have had Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Chinese and many others here for at the very least 50 or 60 years, without any trouble or problems at all. All of a sudden we have Muslims and we have had nothing but trouble.
Of course the others just accepted our laws. Unfortunately Islam wants to replace them with theirs.
Could this be the reason:-
In November 2008, Gordon Brown and Lord Mandelson went to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States to ask them to fund our shaky economies by putting billions into the IMF (International Monetary Fund).
Lord Mandelson acknowledged they offered the Saudis some finacial influence over Britain and the West.
This of course is a move to Eurabia - allowing Islam to take over Europe.
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To cruyff_14
"It appears that you, and many other narrow-minded souls, have blissfully chosen to ignore some of the great work done by Islamic cultural organisations in Britain in the aftermath of 9/11"
You mean the 7/7 London bombings, right?
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I doubt if the Muslim world will learn the larger lesson. In America even the most odious crackpot has the right of freedom of speech and expression, and there is nothing the most powerful government in the world can do to silence him.
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The lesson you should learn is that in all the countries where usa has a puppet government, the people opposed to the government are either killed or just whisked off, vanished..In afghanistan, us military readily kill the opponents of their favourite president karzai..usa maybe a democratic and what not country for its citizens, but outside its borders, it turns into a brutal dictator..As a non american muslim, I couldnt care less how american government treats its citizens..my concern is how it treats my country fellows and other muslims outside usa..and allow me to enlighten you, the american record is the worst when it comes to human right violations..
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122. At 2:24pm on 10 Sep 2010, CJ Vasani wrote:
“They should merge the big three Abraham-ic religions into one, so they can stop hating each other.”
Remember the proverb, “be careful what you wish for; if the gods are in a bad mood they may give it to you.”
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A handful of extremists on one side and a handful on the other, all shouting and screaming and baying for blood and damnation.
The BILLIONS of the rest of us, as usual, are just left ignored in the middle.
"200 people protested .." says the Beeb adding an Imam talked to the "Crowds." Crowds? 200 people is barely a wedding disco!
The paster is a fool, but the media is the fools errand boy.
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The irony of it...
On the one hand, we are desperately trying to convince the Muslim world that we don't have any quibble with Islam, but only with Islamist extremists and terrorists, who claim to speak for Islam and all Muslims when in fact their views have nothing in common with Islam or with the views of most Muslims.
And now, on the other hand, we are also desperately trying to convince the Muslim world that some nutcase redneck Bible-bashing extremist does not speak for all Christians/Americans/Westerners and his views have nothing at all in common with Christianity, America or The West.
@Greenfielder:
"So really, their reaction in pleading with Pastor Jones reflects a position of non-confidence in the emotional maturity and rationality of many Muslims."
The problem is that there are several Muslim leaders who do not have the emotional maturity and rationality because they want an excuse to pick a fight. But whereas when Christianity gets attacked, the worst that will usually happen is Fred Phelps and a handful of nutters causing a little localised trouble, there are too many Islamist extremists who hold significant power, authority and military capabilities - including some (official or self-appointed) heads of state - and they will cause a lot more than "a little localised trouble" if we give them any excuse to do so.
That says nothing negative at all about the overwhelming majority of Muslim citizens and leaders, who deplore the actions of Islamist extremists just as much as the rest of us.
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Let's judge the Muslims by their reaction to the Quran burning. Perhaps Westerners should take a hint from their Muslim 'brothers and sisters' and start defending their religions with this level of fervor. The end times would certainly come - sooner than later - and we'd get this whole thing sorted out in no time.
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#118 " On the other hand the hundreds on the streets in Afghanistan, three wounded by gun shots, the burning of flags and effigies and shouts of 'death to Christians' kind of make the pastor's point for him that, while not evil, even the majority of muslims seem to be hysterical, fanatical and exhibit extreme behaviour at the drop of a hat. "
Firstly it was three muslims shot by a (Western) private security firm. You might want to think about that.
More importantly how the hell do you go from the actions of a few hundred in Afghanistan (a stone age country thats been bombed silly for the past 30 years and where almost every man carries an AK47 on his shoulder)
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People whom you went to "liberate" protest against the liberators, that should wake you up to the reality with shock and horror...That should actually have made you realise how unpopular the occupation is..Its a country you decided to play your war in, after 9/11 even though it had nothing to do with 9 or 11...afghanis have always seen the liberation as an occupation..However they react matters to obama...otherwise, no one can save the troops over there...not even the "better angels", if they came down in person to save the american troops.
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All of this started by an unknown deluded "Pastor" preying on the American paranoia and stimulating a feeding frenzy for their so-called MSM? It took a while for the story to gain traction but it worked extremely well. Was it the pastors original idea or was it all orchestrated for the very purpose of inciting hatred with likely unfortunate long term effects? Now, the objective has been switched to the NY Mosque site. Is it another case of Follow the Money? At the very least the Pastor's financials should be checked out. For whatever reason somebody stands to gain. The timing is all too perfect - 9/11, NY Mosque, Iraq exit, PAL/Israeli peace talks and Iran etc etc. Its a highly explosive cocktail.
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The problem is with OUR fear of confronting an ideology which carries out homicide if it is criticised.
Moreover, this same ideology, as we speak has vandalised and burnt scriptures in the Churches of the Catholic community in Gaza, massacred members of the Coptic community in Egypt, not to mention the ancient Buddha statues blown up by the Taliban or ancient Hindu monuments destroyed in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh and then tries to mug us off that they are the victims.
In Pakistan, during the floods, Sunni Muslims have been blowing up Shia's, this is the mentality.
If Israel was destroyed and the Jews left or converted, it would be India next and the Hindus. The Christians are already being massacred, and then Sunni's would kill the Shia's like they always have.
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139. At 2:58pm on 10 Sep 2010, cbb100 wrote:
To the above people commenting that religion is irrational: What is the independent basis of rationality itself, if you abandon the idea of the supernatural? ....to occur. No?
You suggest that rationailty exists independently of human existence. It exists, as we know it, as it is a human theory. Therefore, to consider rationality a concept of the supernatural is absurd. You may argue that it would exist regardless of our existence but since we are discussing our understanding of what rationality is, to that end, the point would be moribund
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No-one is allowed to speak up if the message isn't what the govt wants you to say. As such despite what Obama, Gates etc say (which won't be broadcast in Riyad, Tehran or Kabul anyway) that fact that Pastor Jones can say and do whatever the hell he likes will be taken as US govt permission to do it because the arab world simply can't imagine a different way of life.
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And you really like this pastor believe that those who carried on 9/11 did it because they one day woke up, forgot all about their lives, turned a page in koran and acted on it? 9/11 was the end of stuble exploitnation of the west of muslims, now if the americans want to exploit the muslims, they will have to do it openly..as an oppressor..not indirectly hiring muslim criminals..
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re: 135 Peter More importantly how the hell do you go from the actions of a few hundred in Afghanistan (a stone age country thats been bombed silly for the past 30 years and where almost every man carries an AK47 on his shoulder) somehow proving that the majority of muslims (nearly 1.5 billion!) are the same? Has there been riots in Bradford or Oldham? How many have been shot in Antwerp or Rotterdam?
Amen, brother!
In so much of the discourse around 'Moooslims' I hear a blanket condemnation of 'them.' Well, there are an awful lot of 'them,' and of those billion or so, some small number are reprehensible, inexcusable, violent, nasty, etc., etc., individuals belonging to groups that are likewise reprehensible, inexcusable, violent, nasty, & etc.
At its extreme, the discourse arising out of this Koran burning business, and the whole New York 'mosque' thing more generally, suggests that because Islam is a 'religion of hate,' all believers are anti-Christian, anti-American, etc. And it is this stretching of the condemnation of the actions and beliefs of a few to cover the actions and beliefs of the many that is so damned disturbing.
Yes, many Muslims around the world are critical of US policies and actions (particularly foreign policy). Some among these are strongly critical. But only a tiny, tiny fraction advocate or participate in violence.
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If an American citizen wishes to fly a remote-controlled plane packed with explosives into the White House as a form of protest, freedom of speech will not save him/her from prevention and prosecution.
If an American citizen wishes to perform an act of protest virtually guaranteed to lead to the deaths of American soldiers and others at home and abroad, it is not prevented under breach of national security but regarded as permissible under freedom of speech.
Call me stupid but I don't understand...
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I just saw the most asinine attempt by the BBC to have a televised debate about this. On BBC World News there was a reporter acting as the host who gave questions to people that he apparently plucked off the street in New York City. He also had an Egyptian Christian and a few Muslims on webcam and on the telephone chime in. After setting up the topic with an overtly one-sided tone, after reading an email from a woman who flatly insulted the US, the host cuts off an American construction worker who was speaking against Muslims, and notified the audience that this man was giving an "American bias". Hilarious. The single person that was on at that time that was against the Mosque, being outnumbered 5 to 1, was disrespected and had his opinions belittled for having an "American bias", despite the fact that every single other person on at that time was in support of the Mosque and was taking the America-is-wrong position. Later on, a Muslim from Pakistan on webcam said that the US should physically prevent the Pastor from burning the Koran because US constitutional rights should stop at religious "boundaries". Basically the guy is admitting that he thinks the US should submit to Islam. This was ignored by the host who moved on, there was no similar disclaimer of bias in that case.
Later, an American Muslim from the street comes on and voices his objection to the Mosque because he believes it is deliberately provocative and he couldn't imagine praying in a place that had caused so much contention. When that same Muslim starts questioning the motives of the Imam of the Mosque, the BBC reporter snaps back at him constantly, arguing against his position. The BBC reporter had obviously decided that he would not allow for any debate about whether the building of the Mosque was the right thing to do. The actual full context of the topic was off limits. He only wanted to discuss what America as a whole had done wrong.
I'm getting pretty disgusted with the fiendishly anti-American people in the media including BBC try to milk this for all its worth. They don't see this as a topic worthy of equal, fair debate. They will never entertain the "American bias" as being a legitimate view point. They just use it as a topic from which to extract anti-American ammunition for their perpetual "Americans are always wrong" narrative.
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Christopher Lord makes a valid point when he says "They simply would not believe that the planned event was anything but a delliberate, US-government-backed act of war." Much like the American senators who can't believe that Megrahi was released on compassionate grounds and insist that it was a UK government plot inspired by BP!
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"Christianity and Islam have many similarities, but just as many differences" I fail to see how this is the case, apart from a small number of cosmetic differences the two religions, appear to me , to be largely identical (founded on Judaism, monotheistic, shockingly violent holy books, revelational). If someone could point out how they differ on a theological level I'd be happy to be so informed.
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All you need to know is this:
"Well, you know what? I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."
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These are the blackest days I've ever lived in America. Nearly everyone seems to have abandoned the right of Americans to exercise their freedoms guaranteed under the Constitution to express themselves openly and freely. This runs the gamut of political views from left to right, from all manner of media including FOX, the so called Tea Party Movement, Liberals and Conservatives, Republicans and Democrats, it seems practically everyone. America is lost. This is how America is defeated, by forgetting what it is actually about, what the Revolutionaries fought for and won, what other Americans died defending, and what was at the core of what makes America different and freer than all other nations. When the fear of offending someone is more imporatant to practically everyone than defending the freedoms that distinguish it, then America is no longer the country it was created to be, not what it was. This and nothing else is the sure sign of America's decline. A tragic day for America, for the world, for the hope of humanity. Having made this concession, there is no other concession America will not also accede to. America is now no better than Europe. It has clearly demonstrated it does not have the political will to survive. RIP America. And heaven help everyone for what it will become.
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This Pastor and hate mongering extremist moslem preachers are different faces of the same coin. I have witnessed these kind of characters first hand as a christian and now as muslim.
#11 You will find whilst it is acceptable in most muslim countries to express your disapproval of US foreign policy by burning the US flag you will NOT find one muslim country where it is acceptable to burn the bible. In fact most governments of muslim countries will act swiftly to stop or ban any action that was deemed to be insult the character of Christ. This is in contrast to the US governments response as they stand back in under the banner of "Freedom of Speech".
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I've yet to hear an explanation as to why it's so offensive to burn paper with writing on it. Surely this writing can easily be duplicated millions of times over with modern technology. I presume the books have been paid for and are therefore at the disposal of their owners to do with them whatever they wish, within the law. Just saying "I am offended" is not a reason. We could all be offended by anything we choose. For governments to ban or prevent something there should surely be a rational reason. Those objecting to the burning, appear not to be giving any rational reason for their objection and some are even behaving violently. I suspect those "offended" feel this way because they have been indoctrinated and not because they have come to this conclusion by themselves. I neither support nor condemn this proposed book burning but I do condemn anyone who causes harm to another person by behaving violently in reaction to it.
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Peter_Sym @91,
I repeat: no-one has the right not to be insulted.
Stupidity 'insults' me. For all you know, perhaps people who don't believe in faeries at the bottom of the garden 'insult' me. (Is that any more outrageous a notion than an omniscient and omnipresent deity who care what and when I eat?)
Furthermore, people who desecrate my national symbols, or engage in female genital mutilation, or treat women like chattel do annoy me and provoke me. Does this 'provocation' give me the right to violence?
How come the call for 'tolerance' is always from one side. Perhaps those who believe in 7th century tenets and irrational claptrap should start learning - and practicing - some tolerance.
Are my quaint sensitivities and weird beliefs worth less than those of a 'believer'?
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Muslims read this:
I am not agree with burning KURAN
or on the same token not burning any holy books or temples
Real Muslims...ask your self......or ask your brothers sisters
Have any mulims did not burn any temples/chrurches in past year/two
Allah said go break that temple or church or rape innocent women.....is this Kuran teaches you.......what real muslims did for those extremists who does on the name of Allah
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"Do we not constantly hear (and I have seen it posted on the BBC) that if you hurt or offend one Moslem, you hurt/offend them all? That would indicate that they regard themselves as one - so if part of that one hurts/offends a non-Muslim, are they not ALL responsible??"
What, like The Borg?
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Stevie D;
"On the one hand, we are desperately trying to convince the Muslim world that we don't have any quibble with Islam, but only with Islamist extremists and terrorists,"
Perhaps we should try to convince ourselves first. Stoning women to death for adultery, cutting people's hands of for stealing, female genital mutillation, arranged child marriages, revenge killings, forcing women to wear headscarves, veils, burkhas, a death sentence for apostocy, fatwahs against people like Rushdi to kill him, effectively a religions contract for murder for writing a novel, Sharia law usurping civil authority even in non Moslem countries like the UK are not associated with terrorism but are examples of mainstream Moslem theology, culture, or practice every day in various parts of the world. Which of these practices don't you have a quibble with?
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I'd like to respond to Mark's question:
"Is it the fault of the 24-hour media that has focused on this planned demonstration by a tiny number of people?"
As someone who is genuinely interested in what is happening in the world (hence my spending such a long time on this particular website) - I find that though the QUANTITY of news provided here has increased massively, the QUALITY has markedly fallen.
Within our 24 hour news cycle, all kinds of outlets are struggling to find the most sensational stories - and the TV news outlets are amongst the worst here. What saddens me more than anything - any why I will never regard the major "news" networks here as providing anything of value - is that they have decided that their mission isn't really to 'inform' at all, it is to 'entertain', as they try to compete with game shows or the kind of really bad soap operas that the network broadcasters excel at.....
They will drop their coverage of serious news in a nanosecond if Paris Hilton breaks a nail - I remember with some horror the amount of on-air time dedicated to that vacuous woman, famous for just being famous, when she ended up in jail....
All of the TV news networks decided that what they were really in the business of providing was celebrity tittle-tattle.....
As a previous poster has mentioned - this was a church of but 50 people !
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Islam is a very powerful religion. It is the only religion that can mobilize millions of people based on something relatively small. Like a carton or a threat to burn a book. They are so easily upset and always seem on the verge of mass violence.
The issue is how easily they can be upset and how huge the result could be.. The politicians are dancing around this issue because they know that 1 person in nowhere USA burning a piece of paper can result in millions of dollars in damaged property, lives being lost, increase recruitment into terror groups and making many places unsafe to live.
Do we tip toe around this religion for ever? What is the answer?
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OK, they have most likely successfully stopped this crazy Pastor from doing this.
But what are they going to do about the dozens of copycat "burn a Koran" videos which will undoubtedly start appearing on YouTube?
All it will take is 1 video of 1 person burning 1 Koran and you can imagine the reaction...
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I am still waiting for an answer on:
Why you are giving the radical iman Rauf a pass for his veiled threats on stopping his cultural center and his extremist views.
Also where is the BBC on questioning islamic leaders on the disrespect to the U.S on burning American flags?
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President Reagan didn't have any problem offending 300 million Soviet citizens by calling their country an evil empire and they had 20,000 hydrogen bombs targeted at us. Why do we have a problem offending 1.4 billion Moslems who have no hydrogen bombs targeted at us...yet.
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MarcusAureliusII: Nil desperandum.
America will awake. It'll take a bit of time - and a bit too late for comfort, but like the period of September 1939 to December 1941 when America thought isolationism was a good idea, it will be stung into action by new Pearl Harbours. (Obviously 9/11 wasn't recognised for what it was).
Let's hope we both find our Churchills as we grapple with the inevitable 'clash of civilisations' which has already begun (but our spineless politicians refuse to admit).
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If one has checked the multiple thousands of responses on just one site (e.g., CNN) the nut in Florida has a LOT of sympathizers. This brouhaha is ironic and hypocritical. I don't begrudge him his 15 minutes of fame. It's the 1st Amendment and the cover needs to be rolled back from the true mood simmering below. For it is only through EXPOSURE can we deal with it. On the other hand, there are dozens of demonstrations against injustice in the US which are never reported in the press. Hypocrisy: WE have been burning real and innocent human beings with bombs, for example, in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan for over a decade. When the christians arrived at the Aztec capitol in the 16th century, they burned all the written literature, considered pagan and savagery. The lynching and/or burning of blacks in the Southern states was popular in the 19th and 20th century and congress refused to pass an anti-lynching law. Have WE forgotten Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, No Gun Ri, Bac Mai, My Lai so soon? Terry Jones' "Reichstag" scenario is nothing more than a sick joke, as is the president's and general Petraeous' remarks about him putting US soldiers in danger.
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182. MaxSceptic:
I repeat: no-one has the right not to be insulted.
**************
Just ask Christians if you want to hear about religious insults.
You may not like it, but you have no right to stop it.
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189. MagicKirin:
"Why you are giving the radical iman Rauf a pass for his veiled threats on stopping his cultural center and his extremist views."
***************
Do you mean his claim that if he were to move the site now, it would incite extremists who would attack Americans abroad?
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A small point of note:
ANYONE who goes to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, UAE etc with a Bible immediately has it shredded upon arrival. If they are found to have gathered for Christian worship anyhow, they are executed.
Instead of a Mosque, they should build two big towers with the words Get on one and Lost on the other.
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A small point of note:
ANYONE who goes to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, UAE etc with a Bible immediately has it shredded upon arrival. If they are found to have gathered for Christian worship anyhow, they are executed.
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So, how do you account for all the military personal from usa who reside in saudi arabia, afghanistan and UAE? how do you account for all the alive christian civilians who reside in these three countries and earn a lot? That they travel to their home countries every sunday to go to church? And whether you like it or not, iran has a christian minority, and their are christians who go there as well..its another thing, they are not practising christians..next time, atleast try to write some sense..
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@195 gm1984:
A small point of note:
ANYONE who goes to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, UAE etc with a Bible immediately has it shredded upon arrival. If they are found to have gathered for Christian worship anyhow, they are executed.
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I am a UK citizen currently residing in the UAE. Unless it was just my imagination, i'm pretty certain i attended several weddings at this Christian church in the UAE during the past two years and luckily nobody was actually harmed.......
http://www.christchurchjebelali.org/
I am not a religious person, but i do find it extremely annoying when people like yourself make false comments and clearly have no idea about the facts. You can obviously use the internet so try using it to educate yourself.
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MaxSceptic;
"Let's hope we both find our Churchills as we grapple with the inevitable 'clash of civilisations' which has already begun (but our spineless politicians refuse to admit)."
What would you wish a curse like a Churchill on us for, he was the most overrated incompetent in the history of the 20th century. He made blunder after blunder. Among them were Gallipoli, inventing Iraq, hiring Montgommery and many more. The only thing he ever did right was to beg America to rescue Britain from the Nazis before it turned its sights on Japan.
How about wishing for a General like Patton or a Douglas Macarthur. Now that's something worth wishing for. You won't get that kind of man out of military acadamies that turn out men like Betray-us Patraeus.
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Have to disagre with you Marcus about Churchill (Post #199)
I agree with you that he made some incredibly poor strategic decisions about the course of both wars... In fact the saving grace for us was that our military didn't brook and kind of political interference with detailed strategy during World War II, much though he tried !
It was his inspirational leadership of the British people during these dark times that for me makes him such a great leader
One of the principal roles of a true leader - be this politically, of a country - or the coach of a sports team) is that of being a MOTIVATOR. During wartime
England soccer fans can tell you only too well how this has been missing from recent coaches !
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199. At 9:16pm on 10 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
...
How about wishing for a General like Patton or a Douglas Macarthur. Now that's something worth wishing for. You won't get that kind of man out of military acadamies that turn out men like Betray-us Patraeus.
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MericusAurelius11:
Douglas Macarthur hehe... isn't he the one who fled the Philippines but didn't forget to leave all his troops there -- encircled by the enemy, and eventually defeated, take prisoner... Patton... another one... a certifiable lunatic from very many blows to the head. I wish he had continued to fight on into the Soviet occupied sector (as he apparently wanted) right there he would've been taught the lesson of his life.
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199. At 9:16pm on 10 Sep 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"What would you wish a curse like a Churchill on us for, he was the most overrated incompetent in the history of the 20th century."
[[Hmmm. Lots of competition for that title. Chairman Mao? Benito Mussolini? Even some closer to home - Woodrow Wilson? Ronald Reagan?]]
"He made blunder after blunder. ... and many more."
[[Quite true, and you have hardly begun the list.]]
"The only thing he ever did right was to beg America to rescue Britain from the Nazis before it turned its sights on Japan."
[[On this, you are quite wrong. The critical thing he did right was to rally his country to fight on through the long hot Summer of 1940 when everybody - including the American ambassador to the Court of St. James - thought England's goose was cooked. And by getting that one critical thing right he more than deserves his place in history.]]
How about wishing for a General like Patton or a Douglas Macarthur.
[[No. William Slim would be a lot better choice. So would Irwin Rommel, or Georgi Zhukov, for that matter.]]
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187, Do we tip toe around this religion for ever? What is the answer?
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The Danish cartoon, the South Park episode, Victory Mosques.
When is enough enough? How many times can a man turn his head and pretend that he just doesn't see?
At one point, the bottom will drop out.
Fury will be unleashed.
I mean, come on, there are gazillions of videos of these people in far-off countries burning our flags and chanting death to America and death to Christians...and yet they threaten us with war if one American burns thier holy books?
Look, I would be hurt, deeply hurt and offended. But where do they get off burning our flags and chanting death threats daily?
This is looking more and more like a new age Holy War.
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Wasnt it me, who a couple of weeks ago, posted in one of the threads that the west was going to show their anti islam muscles in comming weeks and months? Was I correct or was I correct...
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President Reagan didn't have any problem offending 300 million Soviet citizens by calling their country an evil empire and they had 20,000 hydrogen bombs targeted at us. Why do we have a problem offending 1.4 billion Moslems who have no hydrogen bombs targeted at us...yet.
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That's because Reagan was connected to the majority of the country. Obama is disconnected to the majority of the country.
It seems as if he is trying to be offensive as possible.
It doesn't really matter what anyone says now. What has been started is started and it is not likely going to end for some time, maybe even decades, maybe hundreds of years. Many believe this is all the beginning of Armageddon and Revelations. Maybe Obama was put in place for this reason. The formation of a multi-faith is next. Then, the mark of the beast aka tattoos/brandings/code numbers in our flesh- if you refuse, you may be thrown in jail. Then, the UN will try to take away our freedom of speech, our nuclear weapons and our military by suing us with the help of ACLU.
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That's because Reagan was connected to the majority of the country. Obama is disconnected to the majority of the country.
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To be noted, Reagan invited the elder generation of these taliban to his white house, presenting to the nation of american he called them freedom fighters, mujaheds, not not jihadist since jihadist term was not even born then. I am sure the americans felt very connected to regean when he did that because at that time, americans were hyped against ussr..the evil empire of that times..
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http://www.lobelog.com/reagan-palled-around-with-terrorists-too/
There you go, A very fine picture of regean with mujahedin in the white house, among them sitting (if you can recognize him) hiktamyar, who is now on obama's top five most favourite terrorist...No wonder americans feel so disconnected with obama..
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205. At 11:02pm on 10 Sep 2010, LucyJ wrote:
That's because Reagan was connected to the majority of the country. Obama is disconnected to the majority of the country.
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Oddly, Reagan wasn't that well "connected" with the majority. He consistently held views that were not the views of the majority on many issues.
But, somehow, it was very difficult to dislike the man. He had a huge comfort zone with the voters - including many of those who disagreed with him - that was unlike anything seen in my lifetime for other Presidents. Remarkable phenomenon. They didn't call him the Teflon President for nothing.
Over time, though, the long term effects of his Presidency will be evaluated by historians who have no first-hand adult memory of him, or of the folksy warmth that emanated from his personality. And then his legacy will be seen in a much colder, and rather more chequered, light.
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re: 205 Lucy Many believe this is all the beginning of Armageddon and Revelations. Maybe Obama was put in place for this reason.
See, there's nothing wacky about the Tea Party opposition to Obama. All logical and perfectly reasonable. Nothing to worry about at all.
God help America.
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189. At 6:00pm on 10 Sep 2010, MagicKirin wrote: “I am still waiting for an answer on:
Why you are giving the radical iman Rauf a pass for his veiled threats on stopping his cultural center and his extremist views.
Also where is the BBC on questioning islamic leaders on the disrespect to the U.S on burning American flags?”
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1) Haven’t you been reading our Colonel all these months? Islam is a different culture to ours. They see things differently, and have different interests, as are their rights. Honesty is the first prerequisite to understanding, respect for the other and for the differences is the second. I for one am encouraged by the imam’s genuine efforts to offer both. I am also grateful for the Colonel’s contributions here, although I strongly suspect he is sometimes writing with tongue in cheek.
2) Burning the American flag is recognized, legal, and fairly common political speech in this country. I can’t say where the BBC is on this, but although I am offended whenever I hear of it I have a fair list of things I find offensive, mostly no one’s responsibility but my own. Do you imagine for a moment other people have no reasons to disrespect us?
KScurmudgeon
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Somebody said above that there is nothing irrational about religion.
Well said.
It is interesting that issue over creation ‘without the need of God’ as if somehow it pulls the rug out from under the feet of believers. I don’t know any believers who came to faith because they discovered a position on how the universe was created. Certainly many, including myself see that the existence and the beauty and the absolutes in the world are fed and nourished by our belief in God. But to put it crudely, my coming to God was more about a foreboding that I couldn’t suppress any longer. This foreboding was absolutely rational and I find it difficult to understand why apparently rational people are able to live with it and not spend all their waking hours trying to resolve it and find some peace. I mean this cruel awareness we have as self-aware beings (and not animals) that we are going to die. Notwithstanding that we irrationally invest significance in our gettings up and goings to bed and all the things we do in between. Because of course our achievements and sufferings and loyalties and relationships and memories mean nothing if you consciousness is going to disappear.
The greatest irrationality I’ve heard recently was from a humanist funeral which stated superstitiously that the dead person would live on in his achievements, his family and good deeds. I saw something similar on Startrek – The Next Generation. How is that? He doesn’t ‘live on’.
Should have read St Paul. With Christ, “death has lost its sting”. Christians have a context (an infinite one) in which to find meaning in their admittedly very short lives.
Won’t hear any of this on any BBC religious programming.
this is not just metaphysics or 'pie in the sky'
This is an agonising dilemma which is now facing a close member of my family. He knows his atheism is giving him no comfort, no peace, no assurance as he faces the inevitable. Worse, even in his thinking as he faces extinction he wonders quite rationally what significance lies in the things he has achieved.
How can I urge him to consider how his family or society has benefitted? What is that to him one second beyond life.?
My Buddhist friend convincingly argues that it is awareness of one’s own death that marks us out from the rest of nature. (Not withstanding all the efforts to convince us that apes are our cousins).
If we don’t make provision for our own mortality and instead ignore it, he believes we will indeed be recycled as animal life.
Throughout history (this is not a modern thing) mankind has tried to find permanent meaning for himself by appeasing nature deities. But Abrahamic believers always knew that this could only be found in a deity that was outside time.
A sceptic said: "Moreover, those of us who do not believe that there is any persuasive evidence that consciouness persists after death would find the question meaningless."
Just as to the dead, all purpose, achievement, ethics, beauty, meaning and even logic are as if they never existed.
So, to ALL of us, within a short space of time, all purpose, achievement, ethics, beauty, meaning and even logic will be as if they never existed.
The existentialists understood that this is indeed what you are left with if you don't believe in a God outside time.
This is cold reason. I am not talking here at all about immortal life.
However, it is only the knowledge of immortal life actually that gives anything other than transitory meaning to anything to any human being.
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"What a backward bunch" says one poster on another thread of that church and its pastor.
Is that to do with the book burning or the sentiments of that pastor? Because when he says that the Koran says violent and oppressive things then he is in the same company as many posters religion message boards. He is the same company for example as any thinking gay. The book-burning may be symbolic. But there are many humanists who also would prefer the Koran never to have seen the light of day. They don't do book-burning nor do they have the courage to deconstruct the Koran critically.
Hilary Clinton says it's a disgrace because Islam should be respected. Is this just demographics and the vote? Or because of the threat of violence?
Many humanists if they were honest with themselves would argue why should a state officially 'respect' Islam, unless it is pure real-politik.
The difference between this church's symbol burning and muslims who will be about to reciprocate in kind is in numbers involved and the scale of the response.
So don't try to argue some equivalence here.
If an America majority is truly uneasy about Islam and is not burning books then those people certainly also deserve to be respected.
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Excellent report and I agree wholeheartedly with zee4
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A recent post of mine [#206] was removed by the moderators. I was trying to rebuke those [Animation, Peter_Sym, et al] who claim that the US must stop the potty pastor, even though he has the inherent and inalienable right of free speech. Some insist that, like Europe [and UK?], his speech and planned actions should be banned in the US.
The BBC moderators may have taken umbrage at my reminding people of the political parties in the first half of the 20th Century that took control of a large western European country and a large eastern European country. Once in power, they not only eliminated opposition, but large number of their own less reliably devoted followers.
I then stated that, although their ideologies are usually considered polar opposites, as far as respecting freedom, especially of speech, there was virtually no difference between them vis-à-vis* freedom of thought or expression. My message was that Europeans should not push the US to abandon loyalty to such freedoms, and Europe does so at peril of repeating some of Europe's least noble periods of history.
My dear mods, I apologize if my post appeared to come too close in tone to those made by certain other well known posters. I am surprised that mine was censored, though, because it was IMHO no where near as inflammatory. I hope this is bland enough but still intelligible. If, however, the problem was the German quotes, mea culpa*, that was an error of judgment on my part. They were intended to point out where an ideology opposed to freedom of expression leads, but I admit that the regime that created them was odious and I probably shouldn’t have used them.
*I hope these foreign words pass muster, they are often found in English [at least in the US].
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Ref 205, Lucy
"That's because Reagan was connected to the majority of the country. Obama is disconnected to the majority of the country."
Lucy, I don't think it is fair or objective to compare the relationship of pre-9/11 US President to that of post 9/11 presidents.
I doubt too many buildings and bridges would have been named after Ronald Reagan if his administration had carried out the Iran-Contra affair after 9/11, I doubt too many Americans would have approved of him inviting Islamic Mujahadeen to the White House after 9/11, and I doubt too many Americans would have been impressed by his cut and run in Lebanon had he done that after 9/11.
He connected with most Americans because he shared our fear of the Soviet Union and commies in general, because of his patriarchal behavior and persona, because he inspired confidence, and because he was unabashadly proud of what our country stands for. These attributes allowed him to get away with policies and actions that would have been unacceptable had someone else had even hinted of doing them.
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WE HAVE A US PRESIDENT WHO DOES NOT UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION. Obama is the ideal US president for radical Muslims. He's someone who is removing the rights of US citizens himself. There will be no freedom of religion without free speech. Wake up agnostic liberals: this includes your interests, too. You are being used to kill this country.
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St. Dom wrote: He connected with most Americans because he shared our fear of the Soviet Union and commies in general, because of his patriarchal behavior and persona, because he inspired confidence, and because he was unabashadly proud of what our country stands for. These attributes allowed him to get away with policies and actions that would have been unacceptable had someone else had even hinted of doing them.
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In other words, Reagan was proud to be an American, he put USA first and always stuck up for us, no matter what others called us or gossiped about. Reagan truly loved America and wanted the best for it, wanted to protect us the best he could. And other countries leaders did not want to mess with Reagan, even the Soviet Union, so they found a truce.
What is so wrong with asking President Obama to stick up for the people protesting the Ground Zero Mosque because we do not want it to be a Victory Mosque when we are fighting two wars against the Islamic radical terrorists?
I imagine that any other past President of the USA would have likely stuck up for us.
Including Eisenhower, as he was a smart man who warned us about military industrial complex. Eisenhower was also a great military leader and would have recognized the symbolism of such a thing. Eisenhower knew how much symbolism meant to this country and how symbolism can live for all eternity.
Doesn't President Obama realize how much this Ground Zero Mosque would hurt many of us all across America? Doesn't President Obama realize the symbolism? Doesn't President Obama realize that this would mean many of us could never heal and that this will make the anger, hurt and revenge worse?
He is the President. Of course he realizes these things and many more.
Maybe this is his plan to "shake up" the country and enhance the development of changing demographics?
In the coming years, will we be known as the Islamic States of Chimexico?
It seems that some of our elected leaders believe political correctness by one person is more important than democracy by the people.
And that respect is a one-way street.
Who some of our elected leaders wants us to be and who we are is not necessarily the same thing. And no one can force us to be who he wants us to be. We have free will and freedom of speech. WE have the right to be who we want to be.
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Morrigan wrote:
Personally, I'm sick of the sight of Muslims ranting and burning something Western.
There are exceptions. Muslims, even in the Middle East, won't burn their mp3 players,I-pods, CDs and DVDs with American B movies they have such a voracious appetite for. Nor will they burn American food and medicine packages sent to them during diasters. (like in Pakistan); they'll just burn American flags manufactured by their local factories just for such a purpose.
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"How about wishing for a General like Patton or a Douglas Macarthur. "
It's interesting that whenever one mentions those two names crypto communists, fellow travelers and assorted 'useful idiots' start to foam at their mouths like Pavlovian dogs they are.
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The radical Muslim terrorists have achieved exactly what they set out to do, to cause terror to anyone who offends them, in word or deed, we have to tip toe around them, or they will get angry and bomb us or kill us!
The governments of this world and even the top politicians and world leaders are running scared of the terror that will occur if Islam or Muslims are offended!
The terrorists have achieved their goal, while the world bends over backward to appease Islam, and cowers when they (Muslims)are offended.
Incidentally, they are allowed to do and say whatever they like in regards to other religious view points, they kill Christians - Just because they are Christians! - They burn Bibles or shred them if you try and take one into Saudi Arabia - This tolerance is all one way, towards them!!
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Ref 219, Lucy
"What is so wrong with asking President Obama to stick up for the people protesting the Ground Zero Mosque because we do not want it to be a Victory Mosque when we are fighting two wars against the Islamic radical terrorists?"
What is wrong is that the separation of Church and State precludes him from taking sides on an issue like this. That is why he limited his involvement to a reminder that freedom of speech allow any American to build a place of worship wherever they get a building permit to do so.
I am sure he know what Ground Zero means to all of us, but from a constitutional perspective he can not - or should not - take sides. One thing is to tell Mr. Gorbachev to tear down a wall, telling Muslim Americans they can not build a cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero is an entirely different matter.
I think the decision to build the Islamic Cultural Center so close to Ground Zero is a deliberate provocation designed to inflame passions, and I would love to see NYC cancel the building permit, but I don't think our Presideent - Obama or anyone else - should take sides on issues like this.
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He already took sides, St. Dom.
He said he supported the building of the Ground Zero Mosque for constitutional reasons, but he refused to comment on the location.
Why is it okay for him not to comment on the location, yet he will comment on the Koran burnings, getting top military and FBI involved?
Why support one and not the other?
Simple.
One is a Muslim organization.
One is a Christian organization- mostly white.
There's your answer.
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220. At 6:10pm on 11 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Personally, I'm sick of the sight of Muslims ranting and burning something Western.
"There are exceptions. Muslims, even in the Middle East, won't burn their mp3 players,I-pods, CDs and DVDs with American B movies they have such a voracious appetite for. Nor will they burn American food and medicine packages sent to them during diasters. (like in Pakistan); they'll just burn American flags manufactured by their local factories just for such a purpose."
There you have it in an nutshell - the reason we are so loathed by them: we are inescapable. Our 'B movie' culture is degrading and addictive, but we have so much wealth and power - and it comes from our equally irresistible power to do good.
We can create wealth as no one ever has - wealth for the common man and woman, healing for the child and the elderly - and trinkets and toys, iPods, mp3 players full of music and movies ... fast cars and jet airplanes and nuclear bombs. We can send death on them from 30,000 feet or from silent heartless drones out of nowhere, guided by the faceless 20-something in a cubicle in Nebraska who learned his skills playing video games.
We have the power, when the Indus floods away the cities of a million people, to feed them and shelter them and pat them on the back as we say goodbye.
How horrible.
How horrible for a proud and ancient people.
And their only possible revenge is to become like us. Or to strike out in single strokes of suicide.
What a horror we are, what a monster in the old world of humankind.
KScurmudgeon
on 9/11/10
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To LucyJ #224
What precisely would Obama have to say about the mosque location for you to feel that he is behaving in a supportive manner, rather than in your view a religiously prejudiced manner?
If you support the Koran burnings, would it be valid for someone to characterise your view as one based simply on preference for white Christians above Muslims?
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marko,
President Obama should have said that he did not support the location of the mosque out of respect for Americans still grieving/recovering/dealing and that he might suggest they should move it to another location.
You could characterize my view as an all American female who loves her country and wants to protect it from the Islamic terrorists and does not want to give them any kind of victory feeling, especially to be passed on to children and future generations for all eternity.
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"We can send death on them from 30,000 feet or from silent heartless drones out of nowhere, guided by the faceless 20-something in a cubicle in Nebraska who learned his skills playing video games.'
A small correction if I may...
Guided by 30-something men and women in a rather large room in Nevada who learned their skills flying planes for USAF and RAF.
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229. At 08:20am on 12 Sep 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"We can send death on them from 30,000 feet or from silent heartless drones out of nowhere, guided by the faceless 20-something in a cubicle in Nebraska who learned his skills playing video games.'
"A small correction if I may...
Guided by 30-something men and women in a rather large room in Nevada who learned their skills flying planes for USAF and RAF."
Correction gratefully accepted -
On the far side of the world, the point is the same.
KSc
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Guided by 30-something men and women in a rather large room in Nevada who learned their skills flying planes for USAF and RAF."
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Prove it...Prove it that they learnt to control the drones as pilots in us airforce..
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On the far side of the world, the point is the same.
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The point maybe same, however, if its us airforce pilots controlling the drones that strike generously in pakistan, then usa violates the country's sovergeinty, or is at war with it....So, usa is actually is waging three wars in three countries, all muslims..and none of them had anything to do with 9/11...Talk about using the dead to wage wars..I wonder what the anti community centers say to this..to use the dead to wage wars and stop community centers...awesome..
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Why was this such a big deal?
1. Because the story could endanger western troops - or at least make potential supporters of US troops in the Middle east less likely to do so.
2. Because we are all desperate for the Middle East to see us as a reasonable society. Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib etc gave us a bad rep - and it's hard to negotiate diplomatically when you are seen as extremist.
3. Because the story went round the world because it ticked so many "good gossip" boxes.
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The last thing I want is for Islam to think that ALL Americans are against their religion. Personally I don't care what ones religious beliefs are as long as it doesn't hurt or forced on to another living being.
People came here (America) from Europe seeking religious freedom. Our Nation was founded on it. And, I stand by that.
But, the Christian Religion has just as many nut jobs as the Islam religion does. But those few get the attention and make the ignorant of another religion feel that they're all bad. When in truth.... the crazies are just a minority and are just using said religion as a front to further their own twisted thinking. Which is an insult to that religion.
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