Gulf recipe: shrimp, crawfish, oil
Anthony Carbone picks up a long-handled metal net and with practised ease and a flick of the wrist dumps a batch of steaming hot, dark red crawfish into a bucket, ready to be served in the Dockside restaurant, in Picayune, Mississippi.
Although the restaurant, confusingly, is next to Highway 11, not on a dock, it is only a stone's throw from the Gulf of Mexico. Anthony gives me one of the little monsters to taste. They're good and spicy, boiled in the family's secret backyard seasoning (part of the secret, I can tell you, is peppers of three different degrees of hotness).
Anthony's uncle and aunt opened the restaurant in New Orleans but moved it to this rather quieter rural location some years ago. Unpretentious, it is bustling with customers popping in for a shrimp po' boy (a French loaf stuffed to overflowing) or a basket of crabs. It's a family affair and they're all welcoming and huge fun, but in the wake of the Gulf oil disaster they can't help but be a little worried about the times ahead.
They've been to a BP claims centre to see if the company will pay them any money, and they haven't yet heard back. BP have said they will pay all "legitimate" claims, but the case of Dockside shows how difficult that is to define.
The crawfish I tasted are $2.99 (£2.09) a pound, and the special -- battered shrimp, crawfish turnover, fries, coleslaw and bread -- sounds a bargain to me at $6.75 (£4.73). But some of the costs to the restaurant are going up.
Anthony says: "The prices have gone up on just about anything local, anything that comes out of the gulf, the prices have already increased. In this economic time, it's not the best time to raise prices."
I ask if that is because it is scarce.
"Yes," he answers. "But a lot of it is because a lot of the shrimp boats are going to work for the oil clean up which is a more everyday job. You're going to get a cheque a day whereas with shrimping you go out one night and make a lot of money and the next day make nothing. So that's putting pressure on the cost of the shrimp."
That's one cost BP might like to cover. The whole point of this restaurant is that it sells fresh, local fare, some of it caught by Anthony and his uncle in their own boats. When the shrimping season starts at the end of the month the waters presumably will still be closed, so they should expect compensation for that. But how much?
Then there is another, trickier problem, Anthony tells me. If business falls off because of customers' fears, that is a direct result of the spill. But will BP pay up for the economic consequences of people acting on unfounded worries? Indeed, Anthony asks, should they?
"Our phone rings every day. People want to know is that safe to eat, is this safe to eat, and that's the biggest problem for us. Are these people going to a steak house or a sea food restaurant?"
We are invited stay and peel a huge pile of crawfish. It is very tempting but duty and the next interview narrowly win out over staying there all evening sucking crustacean heads over a few beers (about the only alcohol allowed in this nearly dry county). I say I'll be back with the family, and I mean it. I just hope their business will prosper and not become another victim of the great spill.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~55~RS~)
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"BP have said they will pay all "legitimate" claims, but the case of Dockside shows how difficult that is to define"
And that's precisely what BP laywers are going to focus on.
Things hard to prove, indirect consequences of the BP spill. Etc.
Just like US tobacco companies years erlier, when faced with multi-billion dollar lawsuits.
P.S. I'm now defrosting some California caviar-stuffed non-polluted scallops to add to my paella lunch.
Thank you Arnie!
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That does it! I'm going to the local crawfish place on Saturday, before their supply runs out.
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Darn it Mark, now I'm hungry for crawfish.
BP's statement that it will pay all relevant costs is going to be a huge bone of contention. It's no stretch of the imagination to predict the people who will get the lion's share of compensation will be lawyers.
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Crawdads all around! Yummy!
Although - to put an economic spin on it - I try to eat lunch for less-than two dollars a day. I pack salads, eat left-overs and/or buy cheap processed-food crap-cuisine.
-- Your indulgent delight sounds delicious!
BTW - next year, you should take the family to New Orleans for Mardi Gras!
I hear-tell it's quite the family event... until the sun goes down, of course.
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Scottie 0962 (3) -
Rumor has it folks with beach front property have already filed soot. Meanwhile, fishers & shop owners will get hit with business drop in an already weak economy.
-- It's wrong. It's just plain wrong.
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Even a huge multinational oil company like BP doesn't have the resources to support an entire economic sector. Many people along the gulf coast and perhaps now the east coast will be financially ruined and no matter the amount of restitution made, it will be inadequate.
This whole thing just blows.
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Then again, things are bad all over. Jupiter just got busted down a rank: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/20may_loststripe/
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Philly-Mom (#4), "crawdads" is what we used to call the local variety (in Oregon), but you don't want to say that in N'Orleans.
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5. At 6:59pm on 20 May 2010, Philly-Mom wrote:
Scottie 0962 (3) -
"Rumor has it folks with beach front property have already filed soot. Meanwhile, fishers & shop owners will get hit with business drop in an already weak economy.
-- It's wrong. It's just plain wrong."
Once again the majority [middle class] gets the shaft. The bailouts show us that there is socialism for the rich and big corporations. The handling of the illegal immigrants shows us that there is communism for the poor and illegal. What is done for those affectied by the oil catastrophe will show that same familiar disparity.
We need a bit of communism for BP and other polluters [all profits sequestered until full cleanup and full restitution to the people who have suffered economic and physical losses. A bit of Communism is called for on the border [good fences, complete coverage by enforcement agents, major fines, prison and even confiscation for hiring illegal workers] and a bit of Christian Socialism for the poor and middle classes [Jesus was a socialist, after all].
As to the tattooed criminal set, a nice "gulag." Perhaps instead of inefective multiple-deportations, a new use could be found for Guantanamo.
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I just discovered there's an annual crawfish boil in San Francisco in June. Strange that I'd never heard of it.
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Thanks to a congress that is always grateful for sizeable campaign contributions there is a cap on oil company liability in such matters. There has been an attempt to increase it but the Republicans have blocked that. Republicans never miss an opportunity to protect big business from any misfortunes they may have created for a citizen. They are so busy protecting bankers from financial reform and oil companies from liability I wonder where they find the time to complain about government.
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re. #5. At 6:59pm on 20 May 2010, Philly-Mom wrote:
Scottie 0962 (3) -
"Rumor has it folks with beach front property have already filed soot. Meanwhile, fishers & shop owners will get hit with business drop in an already weak economy.
-- It's wrong. It's just plain wrong."
Whoever said life was fair? Gulf folks are survivors, my money is on them to make it through this.
I hear schools of lawyers have been observed migrating toward the rich feeding grounds of the Gulf. It's a pity the Japanese don't have a taste for lawyer instead of tuna or whale, it's definitely a more sustainable catch. Maybe if they changed the name like thy did with mahi mahi?
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re. #11. At 8:50pm on 20 May 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:
"Thanks to a congress that is always grateful for sizeable campaign contributions there is a cap on oil company liability in such matters. There has been an attempt to increase it but the Republicans have blocked that. Republicans never miss an opportunity to protect big business from any misfortunes they may have created for a citizen. They are so busy protecting bankers from financial reform and oil companies from liability I wonder where they find the time to complain about government."
Which explains why the trial lawyers are such big contributors to the Democratic Party.
I'm not sure which is worse, Republicans taking money to limit business liability when do wrong or Democrats taking money from lawyers to let them sue businesses for their last dime over any perceived wrongdoing. Seems both sides are out of balance on this point.
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Ref. 12, Scott0962:
"Gulf folks are survivors, my money is on them to make it through this."
My money, too, if I could find anyone foolish enough to fade the bet.
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BP sounds like British Petroleum to me. So is it an American concern or a British one, who is guilty. Does the British Government bear any responsiblity in this? Or is this now a an American concern, with a multinational dodge the bullet, WTO, type game. This is as tricky as a North Korean torpedo sinking a South Korean ship. Or will the British declare war like North Korea over sanctions. New World government, so the guilty can hide anywhere.
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Ref 13 Scott0962-
"I'm not sure which is worse, Republicans taking money to limit business liability when do wrong or Democrats taking money from lawyers to let them sue businesses for their last dime over any perceived wrongdoing. Seems both sides are out of balance on this point."
Can you name some specific companies that lawyers, of any political hue, have sued for "perceived wrongdoing" that has cost those businesses their last dime? Or are you making an exaggeration?
I am not aware of any business going out of business for penalties suffered from "perceived wrongdoing". Would be interested in looking into the facts of any specific cases you can identify.
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#15, AmericanGrizzly:
"BP sounds like British Petroleum to me. So is it an American concern or a British one, who is guilty. Does the British Government bear any responsiblity in this?"
Despite its name British Petroleum was never been owned by the British government so I don't see that the British government bears any responsibility.
It's interesting that many US commentators insist on refering to it as 'British Petroleum' even though that's not its official name anymore. British Petroleum merged with Amoco (formerly Standard Oil of Indiana) in December 1998, becoming BP Amoco plc and in 2001 formally renamed itself as BP plc.
Trying to blame this tragedy on Britain, either directly or by implication (by insisting on using the obsolete name for the company), comes across as an attempt by some Americans to make this whole situation out to be the act of some independent foreign power rather than a multinational company, with many US shareholders, operating in the US and (in theory) in compliance with US regulations.
BP may well be responsible but the British government isn't, anymore than the US government bears direct responsibility for the Bhopal disaster.
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I have an advice for people in Louisiana and Florida that think are in majority Republican, to invest in vaseline. Also to buy it for internal and make stocks as prices will surely rises.
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@16 (pd): "Can you name some specific companies that lawyers, of any political hue, have sued for "perceived wrongdoing" that has cost those businesses their last dime? Or are you making an exaggeration?"
Publius, I can cite you two examples of similar behavior:
a. The near-destruction of the general aviation industry by attacking the aircraft manufacturers with bogus legal actions (e.g. blaming the aircraft manufacturer for a "latent defect" when the air crash was clearly caused by pilot "error" (being drunk)). The GA manufacturers were so hamstrung by the threat of legal action (e.g. the "latent defect" circus) that they not only virtually stopped selling into the market but were prevented from modernizing construction (e.g. adding electronic ignition vs. magnetos to engines). This went on from somewhere in the 1970s to the early 2000s, when the Congress finally passed specific legislation to provide relief; however, by now the damage is long since done.
b. In the early 2000s one of the environmental orgs (I think it was the Sierra Club) filed suit against the EPA over the air quality in the Washington DC area. The stated purpose of the suit was to force an end to road expansion in the Washington area, thereby forcing folks into public transportation. Never mind that public transportation was running at near-capacity.
Add to this: How many entities sued settle out of court not because they are guilty but because it's cheaper to settle than to fight?
All of this (and I'm sure others can cite other examples) is blatant hijacking of our system of laws to be instead a weapons system to either (a) legislate through the court system vs. the legislature where it belongs or (b) force a transfer of wealth without justification. The biggest consequence of this is that our overall respect for the rule of law is diminished, and we are made weary of holding up our responsibilities (because, after all, what does it buy us to do what's right if misuse of the system pays so well?).
If I could, I'd force some changes:
a. End out-of-court settlements...if you want to sue, you'd better be prepared to go all the way.
b. Require all suits to be heard by juries. No presenting only to a judge. Juries should be selected at random by a panel of judges (and the attorneys do NOT get to stack the jury with "preferred" jurors, or reject jurors that are well-educated).
c. Enact "loser pays everything"...you'd better have a real case, or you're going to be paying for your frivolity.
d. End sealing of records.
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Mark: I used to live in Slidell, LA (just 15 miles down the road from Picayune) and worked at the NASA facility just south of Picayune. You might want to pay the NASA facility a visit.
The facility was built in the early 1960s. There are three large rocket motor test stands there that were used to test the Saturn IB and Saturn V engines for the Apollo program, and were used more recently to flight-qualify the space shuttle main engines. The three test stands were built out of 6-foot-thick concrete with reinforcing bar welded to make 2" x 2" x 2" cubes throughout the concrete. One is 400' tall, while the other two are 300' tall. On a good day you can see the ATT microwave tower in Slidell, LA (some 20 miles away) from the top of the 400' stand.
When Hurricane Katrina blew through, the eye passed directly through the facility. The newer buildings were seriously damaged; however, the old 1960s-vintage buildings were built to expect the explosion of one of the Saturn engines, so they were built extra tough (concrete panels covering concrete-block walls). They didn't withstand much damage at all. The three test stands, of course, were completely unchanged by the wind...
One memorable event: There was a special party at the NASA facility, and it was a "shrimp boil". Imagine a stainless steel pot 6' in diameter and about 6' tall, filled to near the rim with shrimp, corn, potatoes, and lots of spices, and fired at the base with a propane jet. The cook was stirring the stuff with a wooden boat paddle (no kidding). Spread the stuff out on newspapers and eat.
Yummy!
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I worked in and around the Louisiana Crawfish feeds for most of 30 years or more. Oil and Gas products were my business for years. Much like you said I expedited first hand, they were called Crawfish Boil back in my days. Meaning the Potatoes, corn and crawfish and what ever all got boiled in the same huge POT, maybe 200 gallons or more mounted on a pull around trailer.
Many things I remember well while down in Louisiana is that the folks around they’re worked hard and drank their beer the same way.
When the BP crisis came on us like a herd of raging wild bulls loose in the Queen of England China Closet my mind got in gear to help all my good friends get this under control and stop all the oil and gas at the source. Yet the Brits thus far have been a bit remiss about trying to keep us original oil field hands in the information loop. Meaning some oil field folks stated at the bottom of the heap before moving up the ladder to take the reigns of companies around the world. But that is not the case any longer those schooled in MBA have gotten control of the money. Now a time has come for us older than dirt to come on the scene and talk straight to the boys at BP. Following is my only way to talk straight to BP any longer, they have in all my ways of civility gone wild, WHY, I think the problem is much bigger than what they have allowed us to know.
No offense intended yet in my book of common sense and reason is found the word LIE--- not misstatements of facts
And to speak Politically correct to me means lying is permitted.
A one-way conversation is not allowed on my turf, how about on yours?
By Dwight Baker
May 20, 2010
Dbaker007@stx.rr.com
Eagles Eye View Aiming at Issues for We the People Advocates
I think the Brits have forgotten that we sent them packing some years back. Now those same Brits are on our turf using BP as their front to rob us blind again. While doing so they triggered the worst human caused tragedy in history. Worse than anything you can think or state, if not so --- prove that statement wrong.
The aloofness of their talk should tell anyone in Oil and Gas circles of work their con that has run out---their faults are too many to count--- and their hopes to find the bitter end of stopping the flow of oil and gas is alluding them for they continue to shroud themselves around from those who know and run too the wells of idiocy to try to bring a reprieve for the night mares they have solely caused.
For some time professional men and women who had ideas of how to bring a sudden cure to BP problems --- were offered a way of passing along their opinions. Yet many of us have found out that was just a con. BP had no intention of putting forth any human energy to help them amass the intellect needed to bring a resolve to their problems. So from around the earth today good will from many who offered help has been filed away in drawer 13.
But a more serious infringement on our rights as co-owners of our natural resources exist found out by me today. The numerous updates that I have been receiving by BP I had until today been able to reply to sender then send along my ideas of that day about what was transpiring. But not so today, now my messages and I suppose many others is being returned as never being sent.
Thus BP is an island that they have set out to set them apart from US We the People. And as said it is our natural resources not theirs or the Political bosses who serve us.
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Did Anthony Carbone, Dockside Restaurant, make contact with the so-called official "Gulf Oil Spill Help Centre", or some other place?
The Gulf Oil Spill Help Center is supposedly devoted to
- providing up to date information as well as
- victims resources
for those effected by the BP Deepwater Horizon oil spill disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.
The Gulf Oil Spill Help Centre is saying that this spill is so much worse than the Exxon Valdez tragedy, that they are totally committed to being the ultimate advocate for all from fishing industry victims, and all of the property owners, waterfront, or fishing camp owners who are about to see their property damaged, and thereby devalued.
The Gulf Oil Spill Help Centre is saying that its primary focus is property owners in Plaquemines, Saint Bernard, or any other Louisiana Parish, along with waterfront property owners or businesses that have suffered an economic loss due to this massive oil spill, in Mississippi, Alabama or Florida.
The Gulf Oil Spill Help Center has apparently been created to assist commercial fishing interests, tourism related businesses, and waterfront or fishing camp owners in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida.
The Gulf Oil Spill Help Centre is saying that its goal is to be the ultimate resource, the ultimate help center and advocate for anyone effected by the BP Deepwater Horizon oil spill disaster. The oil spill is now starting to make landfall and the Centre wants to make sure that no one gets left behind in the massive US environmental disaster."
The Gulf Oil Spill Help Center is saying that as an example, it thinks the value of the thousands of Louisiana fishing camps have, or soon will begin to see land valuation decline for their recreational properties, How much? The Centre doesn't know. It's counting on owners to get in touch.
The Gulf Oil Spill Help Centre is saying that it will do daily press releases "almost every day" as the tragedy unfolds. For now the most important thing for the Centre is that all those who have been affected and who become affected, get in touch. The Centre is worried about the real estate and/or fishing camp owners. Individuals who have been impacted by the BP Deepwater Horizon oil spill can call the Gulf Oil Spill Help Center anytime at [Personal details removed by Moderator], or they can contact the group via the web site at Http://GulfOilSpillHelpCenter.Com/.
So Mark, do we have an evaluation on how this Centre is performing? Is it all talk, or is it responding to concerned citizens?
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It doesn't matter who is notionally responsible, BP or the rig builders or whoever. We we must be prepared to pay the price for our lifestyles. Every so often we will wreck a part of the world for years to come because of our need for oil. Chanting 'BP Must Pay' is just posturing by a government intent on populist flag-waving.
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Re #20
I am not big on crawfish (too fat for me), but a good gumbo with shrimp, scallops, mussels, crab meat and CRAY-fish - now that's something else.
I suppose you could also make a nice stir-fry with the same ingredients if put over a nozzle of one Saturn-V 1st stage engines.
[no, I would not add any BP officials to the mix.]
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Those worried about a shortage of fish and some such should read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10131041.stm
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re. # 19 by arclight: Well answered.
I'd like to know if BP being a foreign owned corporation has had any bearing on their response to this incident. Is their corporate culture any different than American oil companies? Would an American oil company have been more forthcoming about what it did and didn't know? If anyone is reading this who's working with BP and American owned oil firms I'd like to hear their comments on the subject.
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FishonSaturday (#23), so are you saying we just let it slide and let BP do whatever they please to deal with it? Do you say people should not demand compensation for their losses? Do you say that regulators should not determine whether regulations were followed? Should Congress not determine whether stronger regulation is required? Should the Justice Department not determine whether there was any criminal conduct? What do you recommend?
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@24: As someone already pointed out, those of us not near the Gulf coast call those things CRAWDADS, but regardless, the point gets across.
We used to think that the original recipes for the shrimp and crawfish boils included some portion of rocket fuel...or was it the other way around (grin)?
Arclight
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Ref 19 arclight-
"Publius, I can cite you two examples of similar behavior:..."
The question was, "Can you name some specific companies that lawyers, of any political hue, have sued for "perceived wrongdoing" that has cost those businesses their last dime?"
You did not give the name of any specific company that went out of business because the were sued to their last dime,(as Scott0962 alleges) nor provided any reference to the lawsuit(s) that may have caused their business to fail.
You mention "the GA manufacturers". What does "GA" mean?
The basic purpose of Civil courts is to bring resolution to a dispute between parties that cannot resolve their dispute through their own negotiations.
What is wrong with out of court settlements?
Courts are always encouraging disputing parties to reach a reasonable, mutually acceptable settlement to their dispute outside of court. It is far cheaper to the tax-payers who provide the budget for the court, when parties can reach an agreement without trial.
You suggest trial by jury for all civil actions.
That is only going to increase the cost of running the civil court system. Were are you going to find all these jurors when John Doe is suing Joe Doakes for non-performance on a contract to do improvements on John Doe's home?
You want a law enacted were "losers pay everything".
Any good attorney already asks for fees and court costs to be paid as part of the judgment handed down by the court. Why enact a law for something that already takes place without a specific law?
You want to end "sealing of records".
Why? That is something one, or both parties ask for as part of their desired settlement. Not something forced upon the parties by the court.
I get the impression that you have not had much experience in civil law.
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publiusdetroit, are you by any chance a lawyer?
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Ref 30 Scott0962-
"publiusdetroit, are you by any chance a lawyer?"
No. I'm not a lawyer. Nor do I work in the legal profession. Just a responsible citizen that understands the simple concept that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse', so I continually study law. I also appreciate the importance of a citizen knowing how the courts and the legal system works. Keep in mind there are three branches of Government in the U.S.; Executive, Legislative, and Judiciary. One cannot be a well-informed voter and responsible citizen without knowing each of the three branches; and how the actions of each branch affects their lives as a citizen.
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I've been gone for a few days, but are they going to be blogs on anything else?
How about the Txas Txt book controversy and the wider implication of political indotrination in schools.
Calderson disrespect to the Arizona people
Posner's comments to the chinese
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You little old Yankee boys really make me smile you invented oil drilling platforms so you could extract the black gold to run your limos with thought's perhaps to follow the American dream of taking every thing for granted like oil fish stocks etc .
But when things go wrong like the tragedy of that platform you want to make every one that draws in air to pay the bill.
I would like to add that when the black gold has ran out and there are no more cars running on it perhaps man kind can put his mind to conserving what little he has left if any ,Fish stocks included. Then perhaps
Mother nature will still be able two supply a very stable diet of fish etc in your great grand children life as i had in mine.
As you know greed has no boundries.
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“Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.”-Sartre
When all the trees have been cut down,
when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted,
when all the air is unsafe to breathe,
only then will you discover you cannot eat money.
Cree Prophecy
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Ref 32 MagicKirin-
"I've been gone for a few days, but are they going to be blogs on anything else?"
It must be painful for an advocate of deregulation and free-market capitalism to face the harsh reality that an ever-growing catastrophe is taking place in the Gulf of Mexico because of the wanton disregard for safe drilling practices and the ecology are the result of a careless, free-wheeling corporation.
BP keeps promising to take care of everything while, at the same time, fabricating a series of incorrect flow-rates of the disastrous contamination to a huge body of water while trying to suppress the actual flow-rates from well qualified, third-party sources.
The date for the application of the "top kill" solution for stopping the flow and capping the well keeps sliding past initially projected dates. The success of that application depends on knowing the actual flow-rates in order for it to not make the condition even worse than it is. More oil keeps pouring into the Gulf as BP fumbles for a solution. The extent of the disaster keeps spreading with each hour the contaminating flow continues.
It would be much more comfortable to ignore this terrible, ongoing event that is affecting the lives and livelihood of so many.
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-What did the Dalai Lama say to the hot dog vendor?
-Make me one with everything.
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#34 P's Mable You forgot there are no pockets in shrouds either.
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Well dears, our people goofed up and slacked off on the rig in the gulf. It was a sloppy job on the cheap. Our people goofed up and slacked off on financial management oversight and logic causing a worldwide near collapse because of a 'housing bubble'...another greedy sloppy stupid job.
On the bright side of humanity there's this
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/7529137/19953307
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Ref 33 scopio33-
"You little old Yankee boys really make me smile you invented oil drilling platforms so you could extract the black gold to run your limos with thought's perhaps to follow the American dream of taking every thing for granted like oil fish stocks etc ."
Wasn't just us "little old Yankee boys" stuffing our pockets with oily lucre. There were lots of good-old boys speaking with the southern drawl of Johnny Reb happy to be working on those platforms.
No need for sectionalism when pointing fingers. There are oil stains on the fingers of countless people around the world. Everyone from market investors to the mother filling up the fuel tank of her minivan at the local self-serve gas station.
We should be banding together in protest. Not creating even greater divisiveness than what we already have across this Nation.
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ref #35
publiusdetroit wrote:
Ref 32 MagicKirin-
"I've been gone for a few days, but are they going to be blogs on anything else?"
It must be painful for an advocate of deregulation and free-market capitalism to face the harsh reality that an ever-growing catastrophe is taking place in the Gulf of Mexico because of the wanton disregard for safe drilling practices and the ecology are the result of a careless, free-wheeling corporation
______________
It is in that most corporation are responsible and do more good than is ever reorted. Other than the Bill and Melinda Gate Foundation when is the last time the news had long stories about good company practices.
for instance how during Katrina Wal Mart had needed supplies shipped to their area stores far ahead of LA response?
I flew back to Boston on Jet Blue, for all I know the pilot that has been reported was mine. But when is the last time the national news reported how well they and Southwest work?
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Exactly - it comes down to each of us as individuals - promoting good workers from the ranks instead of permitting a dissolute and decayed aristocracy of monied 'managers' to run our banks and industries, teaching honestly and with integrity instead of having a Texas schoolboard dictate a political curriculum for an entire generation of children, individual integrity and respect for the world and others, understanding self sacrifice and nobility... So simple and yet...
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#39 publius I meant no of fence what so- ever in finger pointing to any one in particular, only in as much as pointing out that mans quest for everything he can get his dirty little hands on with little or no thought of the damage he is doing to his very existence can't continue with out something having to give. The American dream as you know it is only a dream in its self, Many a poor sole in the world today have nothing at all,and not everything.
The pollution of that or any other coast line is unforgivable ,
But then thats man spoils all he interferes in.
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Ref 40 MagicKirin-
"It is in that most corporation are responsible and do more good than is ever reorted."
Corporations are supposed to do things in a responsible manner. Though, I'll agree, it might be interesting news when they are able to manage doing their job responsibly.
Dateline: Peoria, Illinois-
The XYZ Corporation were actually able to produce goods in a responsible manner today. First time this can be recorded for the company. Management is uncertain whether this can be a continuing trend; or if this is just an anomaly."
The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation only came about after a couple decades of unabashed corporate greed by the founder. Any good this Foundation does in the present should be weighed against the very heavy-handed way in which the huge fortune was amassed. More like guilt money being doled out to belatedly ease a new-found conscience.
I would not use WalMart as an example of a responsible corporation in any stretch of the imagination.
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Ref 42 Scorpio33-
"publius I meant no of fence what so- ever in finger pointing to any one in particular, only in as much as pointing out that mans quest for everything he can get his dirty little hands on with little or no thought of the damage he is doing to his very existence can't continue with out something having to give."
No offense taken. My reference to "Johnny Reb" was nothing more than a good-natured jibe in return.
I do agree on the main point of both your posts. We must face the consequences of our quest for filling our lives with material things at the expense of clean air, water, and land. Using the earth's resources should be done with a responsible eye cast toward the future and how we acquire those resources so that future generations are not damaged by our folly.
Currently; far more money and research goes into how to acquire natural resources at the cheapest initial cost, than money and research going toward what impact that cheap acquisition will have on the rest of the ecosystem and the well-being of future generations.
The way we mine, drill, grow, harvest, process, transport, consume, and dispose of materials in this time is tantamount to committing retro-active abortion on our children, and their children, and their children...
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publiusdetroit wrote:
Ref 40 MagicKirin-
"It is in that most corporation are responsible and do more good than is ever reorted."
Corporations are supposed to do things in a responsible manner. Though, I'll agree, it might be interesting news when they are able to manage doing their job responsibly.
(Most corporations act responsibly but they are no obligation to be altrustic)
Dateline: Peoria, Illinois-
The XYZ Corporation were actually able to produce goods in a responsible manner today. First time this can be recorded for the company. Management is uncertain whether this can be a continuing trend; or if this is just an anomaly."
The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation only came about after a couple decades of unabashed corporate greed by the founder. Any good this Foundation does in the present should be weighed against the very heavy-handed way in which the huge fortune was amassed. More like guilt money being doled out to belatedly ease a new-found conscience.
(actually is more due to Bill Gates growing up, but like Oprah with her school in Africa she is under no obligation to do it)
I would not use WalMart as an example of a responsible corporation in any stretch of the imagination.
(I would low prices and standing up to Union thuggary. When the boston resevoir was contaminated Walmart kept their low prices and shipped water in.)
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Ref 45 MagicKirin-
"I would low prices and standing up to Union thuggary."
Corporations are far from golden examples of ethics. The ongoing disaster in the Gulf of Mexico is a oily testimony to their lack of ethical behavior. BP ignored the warnings to keep drilling even though they knew there was an impending disaster looming.
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ref #65
compare the percentage of goverment or political appointees or elected officials or union leaders or orginizers vs corporations and see which have a greater percentage of bad apples
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Ref 47 MagicKirin-
"compare the percentage of goverment or political appointees or elected officials or union leaders or orginizers vs corporations and see which have a greater percentage of bad apples"
You're right. Corporations win the bad apple competition hands down. Enron, Goldman-Sachs, about 255 failed banks, all the failed Savings and Loans, DuPont (Bhopal), Exxon (Valdez), Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC,...I don't have all day to list a host of other.
Each of these corporations have Chief executive officers, Boards of Directors, and upper levels of management piled up in the bad apple basket who have laid waste to a booming economy and destroyed the investments of millions of people.
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ref #47
publiusdetroit wrote:
Ref 47 MagicKirin-
"compare the percentage of goverment or political appointees or elected officials or union leaders or orginizers vs corporations and see which have a greater percentage of bad apples"
You're right. Corporations win the bad apple competition hands down. Enron, Goldman-Sachs, about 255 failed banks, all the failed Savings and Loans, DuPont (Bhopal), Exxon (Valdez), Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC,...I don't have all day to list a host of other.
Each of these corporations have Chief executive officers, Boards of Directors, and upper levels of management piled up in the bad apple basket who have laid waste to a booming economy and destroyed the investments of millions of people.
____________
Goverment appointees and politicians
Barney Frank, Chris Dodd Eric Holder, Janet Napolitano, Larry Craig, Rick Blumenthal,Charlie Rangel etc
Unions SEIU, AFL CIO etc.
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In to response to # 48.
Well as far as bad apples I disagree. Corporations do a load of bad as well as good, as they do create financial concerns, goods, and progress in an economic system. The problem is still the dirty deals. When they do turn into bad apples the people they cheated to begin with, the government makes the same people pay for it, this is justice? AIG foreign nationals took bonuses from the US taxpayers and ran. While US executives, I believe most returned the bonuses. So once again government Bad Apples under Obama paid them. When the public outrage became to great, Obama the ultimate politician claimed it to be an outrage. I guess when the mob is at your door, you take their side? Survival of the slimiest political worm, in the apple. Just like the other bad apple claiming he fought in Vietnam, just recently some DEmo running for office stated this. Or the President of Mexico pointing the finger at the United States for implimenting a law, that Mexico basically has one similiar or slightly more stringent. Naw I believe the worms of the Bad Apples government likes to keep the rot just below the surface. Like the playing card facade that these politicans represent the will of the people. Then why is this law supported by the majority?
Well your right the bad apples are there. The Worm of the politico's are also there, grabbing cash, and consolidating power thru any means. See ya Arlen, switch over to another party the ultimate flip flop to save one's political skin. I hope this time after a brutally punishing election, these incumbents, scumbags that no longer listen to the people are tossed out on their big arrogant heads. An what would be even sweeter is the that the next bunch if they don't listen are also tossed out on their political backsides. Until we regain the Constitutional Republic and a representative democracy that actually listens.
I will be so estatic to see the citizens take back this power from these pigs. But when I see the Euro sink, along with the stock market, jobs, gold, and just about everything else tank. I don't think these upheavals are over, like a major quake, the next one could be worse, or just tremors.I do think the unsustainability of debt will take its toll in total collapse of nations as all begin to fail. Burdening the responsible nations if they survive! Well at least the UN wants an internet tax, one world government, one big Godzilla type worm for the bad apples....
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MagicKirin Andrew Carnige gave many endowments to his selected charities. While Pinkertons shot down his workers among other cruelties. Nothing is pure or unbiased in this world for sure.
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The spotlight is on the bad apples of BP at this moment. How long will we keep accepting their statements that they a taking care of things when the refuse to share information?
How can the U.S. make decisions on what should be done in our waters when BP officials are withholding data and information invaluable to making good decisions?
Wonder what Marcus would have to say about our response?
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ref #51
AmericanGrizzly wrote:
MagicKirin Andrew Carnige gave many endowments to his selected charities. While Pinkertons shot down his workers among other cruelties. Nothing is pure or unbiased in this world for sure.
_______________-
True that nothing is pure. But I disagree about your potrayal of the heroic Pinkertons. James mcPharland's bringng the Molly Maguires to justice equals anything Cesar Chavez has done.
The Pinkertons could be great use against the thugs from the SEIU.
Proud to be anti-union!
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Ref 49, Magic
"Goverment appointees and politicians
Barney Frank, Chris Dodd Eric Holder, Janet Napolitano, Larry Craig, Rick Blumenthal,Charlie Rangel etc"
Half the folks you mentioned are elected officials, the rest are mostly Cabinet members. Political appointees are a completely different breed. Just because you don't like the policies championed or supported by these individuals doesn't mean they are bad apples, in fact, some may conclude that alone makes them visionaries with exceptional ethical attributes!
Comparing government officials, whether they are elected officials, cabinet members, political appointees, or civil servants to corporate management is an exercise in futility that proves nothing and only serves as bait to elicit comments on a non-issue.
Government officials are responsible for writing and voting on legislation related to services we get; if we don't like what they are doing we vote them out of office and replace them with people more to our liking. The main focus for corporate management is growth and profits. Altruism is an afterthought, and community focus is more often than not limited to activities designed to favor the corporation financially.
Most CEOs and board members, like most government officials, are honest and hard working people. We may not always like what they do, but that doesn't mean they are "bad apples". In any case, there is little we can do when we deal with a ruthless CEO other than not buy the products or services delivered by the company he/she is in charge of, but we definitely have options when an elected official misbehaves or proves to be incompetent.
BTW, you may want to add Republicans to your list of presumptive bad apples unless, of course, you don't think there is anything wrong with Dick "college deferment" Cheney, Sen. Stevens, Rep. Cunningham, Foley and the rest of the gang, including the Republican leader that did business with a "rentaboy" outfit.
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46. publiusdetroit:
"Corporations are far from golden examples of ethics."
******************
What group is your "golden example" of ethics?
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Ref 55 AndreaNY-
"What group is your "golden example" of ethics?"
I don't know of any group that would serve as a "golden example of ethics.
If you are looking for what basis I use to judge ethical behavior it would be from the study of ethics and the examples set by people around me. I do know several people I hold in high regard for their ethical behavior. It would do little good to note them in this post. They are people without acclaim. Successful in business, active in their communities, very well informed and intelligent, beloved by their family who they raised to be responsible, successful citizens and parents.
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Ethics, according to Sylvester:
County, SE England, near Kent; also a county, SW Ontario.
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Ref 57 Interestedforeigner-
The ethics of Essex County, Ontario. Once the leading tobacco growing region is now one of the largest wineries in Canada. The tobacco farms are in a micro-climate belt ideal for grapes.
They are making some very, very good wines there now.
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#44 publiusdetroit,Many thanks to your kind reply to my previous post
There was one or two more points you may like to answer for me as America is one of the major players in ,The other being Russia,
Can you explain why it is you are hellbent on spaceexplortion leaving a grand scrap-yard up in the air with the possibility of it returning one day down to-wards earth with more devastating results ?Or is the answer that an enterprising American scrap-merchant in the future might make financial gains?
Or secondly is it to keep an eye on your Russian counterparts?
Or thirdly perhaps be on a second land grab like the gold rush for your grand children to escape to after exploiting everything else on earth?when theres naught left?
PS only asking in the nicest way {ha ha}
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ref #54
Barney Frank, Chris Dodd Eric Holder, Janet Napolitano, Larry Craig, Rick Blumenthal,Charlie Rangel etc"
Half the folks you mentioned are elected officials, the rest are mostly Cabinet members. Political appointees are a completely different breed. Just because you don't like the policies championed or supported by these individuals doesn't mean they are bad apples, in fact, some may conclude that alone makes them visionaries with exceptional ethical attributes!
____________
Of those I mentioned
Frank and dod most responsible for financial melt down Frank by lying about Freedie Mac and dodd for his blocking Republican reforms to get his sweetheat loan from Fannie Mae
Holder for refusing to enforce the law and giving American rights to terrorist
Napolitano for politiczing homeland security
Bluementhal for lying about serving in Vietnam
Rangel cheating on his taxes
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Re "Napolitano for politicizing homeland security"
Napolitano sezlf admitted that for a whole week she didn't bother to call Pentagon to find out whether DOD had any technical measn useful to fight consequneces of the oil spill in.
Holder for initially lying that "the terrorist never got on the plane".
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'A man on a Greyhound bus travelling across the Canadian Prairies has killed and decapitated a fellow passenger.
An eyewitness said the victim was stabbed 50 or 60 times by the man sitting next to him, who then severed his head with a large knife.
The bus, with 37 passengers and a driver aboard, was travelling from Edmonton, Alberta, to Winnipeg, Manitoba".
Thank God Canada doesn't have 2nd Amendment to blame for knifings.
[UK ditto for its]
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Ref 62, powermeerkat
"Thank God Canada doesn't have 2nd Amendment to blame for knifings."
If the killer had been armed with a semi-automatic weapons there is a good chance most, if not all, 37 passengers would have been killed.
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"BP sounds like British Petroleum to me. So is it an American concern or a British one, who is guilty. Does the British Government bear any responsiblity in this?"
What the hell have the British government got to do with this? We live in a capitalist society, BP is a corporation based in Britain but not a government organisation! Sorry, but this has nothing to do with "The British", the fault lies soely with the corporation, not the government of either Britain or America!
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Ref 60, Magic
"Frank and dod most responsible for financial melt down Frank by lying about Freedie Mac and dodd for his blocking Republican reforms to get his sweetheat loan from Fannie Mae"
You either don't have a good grasp of economic principles and how our government works, or you are so partisan that you don't hesitate to make the most outlanding claims even if doing so undermines your credibility.
Senators and congressmen do not have the authority or power to make or reject policy individually.
Fortunately, we currently have one of the most intelligent, well educated, honest, pragmatic, and determined Presidents in history and the flaws in the financial system that allowed unscrupulous and greedy bankers, businessmen and politicians to bring the USA to its knees are in the process of being corrected to ensure the same does not happen again.
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ref #54
Dominick if you want another example of the inherient corruption in goverment and why business are far more ethical in almost every way.
go to to the Boston Globe online today and read about te practices at the Mass Dept of Probation.
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ref #65
Fortunately, we currently have one of the most intelligent, well educated, honest, pragmatic, and determined Presidents in history and the flaws in the financial system that allowed unscrupulous and greedy bankers, businessmen and politicians to bring the USA to its knees are in the process of being corrected to ensure the same does not happen again.
_________________
First Barney publicly assured the public of the stability of Fannie Mae he and Doodd put pressure on banks to make unsustainable loans
Our President is an empty suit who can speak well with a teleprompoters. Is more concerned with appeasement and supporting special interests like Unions, illegal immigrants. He has an unrealistic utopian vision which is divorced from reality.
although gramticly challenged George Bush was far smart, wisweer and ethical that this fraud from the chicago political machine.
Our only hope is that the Republicans gain a majority in at least one house to stop his disastorous policies. Then in 2012 get a technocrat to start repairing the damage that Obama has caused.
Then the new AG can start administrating the law and not let criminals and terrorists have a free ride.
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60. MagicKirin, 61. powermeerkat:
Holder and Napolitano are unimpressive. They should both get their facts straight before commenting and recognize that theirs are not just PR jobs.
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SaintDominick wrote:
"If the killer had been armed with a semi-automatic weapons there is a good chance most, if not all, 37 passengers would have been killed."
It's always funny that when the anti-gun types like you make such a comment the law abiding citizen never gets to be equally armed. Why is that?
Don't bother answering as the answer is obvious for if the law abiding citizens were also armed then your statement would be false. In fact, such scenarios would be much less likely to happen in the first place.
It's a silly and, more importantly, it is a dishonest argument or response to the right of Americans to bear arms.
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63. At 12:02pm on 23 May 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
"If the killer had been armed with a semi-automatic weapons there is a good chance most, if not all, 37 passengers would have been killed."
____________
This point was made repeatedly at the time, and would represent the overwhelming majority view in this country.
The guy was (and presumably still is) a complete nut case.
Not sure why PMK brought this up just now. It happened well over a year ago. As you might imagine, this is a very rare crime: the murderer and the victim were unknown to each other, it was an entirely random act by a madman.
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Ref 69, Allen
"Don't bother answering as the answer is obvious for if the law abiding citizens were also armed then your statement would be false. In fact, such scenarios would be much less likely to happen in the first place.
Had every person in that bus been armed a shootout would have ensued and instead of one dead there would have been dozens killed.
The idea that carrying a gun would prevent a criminal or insane person from killing someone is absurd, unless of course the perpetrator sends a warning note to the intended victims in advance telling them where, when and how he is going to attack them and the innocent citizens have a chance to prepare themselves.
Guns are not instruments of peace, they are instruments of death.
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"First Barney publicly assured the public of the stability of Fannie Mae he and Doodd put pressure on banks to make unsustainable loans"
Former President Bush assured the American people, repeatedly, that the State of the Union was sound...until he had no choice but to admit that the US economy was on the verge of collapse.
It is incumbent on us, the people, to research and make an effort to know what is going on.
"Then in 2012 get a technocrat to start repairing the damage that Obama has caused."
The cycle may, indeed, continue forever and ever. Republican Presidents and members of Congress destroy our economy, Democrats repair the damage, only to see another Republican be elected and the cycle goes on. Why do you think that is? Could it be that we - the voters - want a free ride, elect clowns that promise us the world, when we realize we are in deep trouble we elect politicians - preferably with magic wands - to correct our problems and when things start looking up we go back to the big easy?
Republicans are great at running campaigns, making promises, and coming up with cute soundbites...but they are lousy at governing.
Democrats could not run an effective campaign if their lives depended on it, but they do a good job when they are elected.
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69. At 1:57pm on 23 May 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"Don't bother answering as the answer is obvious for if the law abiding citizens were also armed then your statement would be false. In fact, such scenarios would be much less likely to happen in the first place."
"It's a silly and, more importantly, it is a dishonest argument or response to the right of Americans to bear arms."
____________
Well, it isn't obvious to the very large majority of people in this country - and I rather suspect that if a referendum were held in the US the majority of Americans would agree.
As for the thing being "much less likely to happen in the first place", first, can you provide some statistical data to back that up?
Second, given that this is (as far as I know) a unique crime in Canadian history, if not in North American history, (complete stranger, apparently no previous record of criminal convictions, random murder, on public transport, beheading), I'm a bit curious what you consider "much less likely" to be?
Third, although you have made it in a somewhat backward way, the point that public safety legislation should not be made on the basis of anecdote (i.e., non-statistically significant recitation of unrelated incidents, lacking any basis as scientific analysis) is a good one.
It is, however, rather odd to hear that argument from anyone who laps up the NRA pablum. The NRA is notorious for its reliance on just that kind of grossly intellectually dishonest nonsense as its stock in trade.
Better to ask: America has 11,000 - 12,000 more gun murders per year than it might reasonably be expected to have on the basis of statistical comparison with other rich democracies. Why? What benefit is America obtaining from this policy that is worth more than the lives of something like 2/3 of a million Americans since the end of WWII, and correspondingly many permanent injuries?
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# 65 SaintDominick wrote [to MK]
"You either don't have a good grasp of economic principles and how our government works, or you are so partisan that you don't hesitate to make the most outlanding claims even if doing so undermines your credibility."
"Or"???
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people, but guns make it easier
http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?p=4907
"We've climbed the evolutionary ladder! We've just been accepted into the world of higher mammals! We've evolved." - Ren
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To a previous post above, I believe Morton Thiokol of the ill-fated Challenger disaster was "in effect" debilitated from the catastrophe and thereafter, re-liberated as a split, parceled and reorganized entity.
On point, BP, as another poster noted, is an amalgamation of Arco, Amoco, Sohio and British Pete, with its USA corporate home in Chicago....the financial heart, soul and base of Obama the 1st. Do we think for a minute that the cap-n-trade boys of the Chicago Merc will allow their biggest benefactor, and beneficiary, to go the way of TRex? Hardly.
At issue is the culture of safety, reward and decision making at not only BP, but most for-profit entities and certainly the regulators. At BP, safety is driven into all levels of the organization, wherein a $30K a year clerk can conceivably issue a "Stop Card" for $1.0bn activities deemed unsafe. Quite noble on paper but the results are counter-intuitive (the absence of one promotes acceptance of undue risks for cost efficiency purposes). Which brings the MMS front and center.
The New Orleans clique that runs the MMS (OCS Div) is at its core ineffectual in deepwater exploration and production. Again, the absence of a 'stop or hold' translates to a 'go', with both barrels a-blazing. MMS' inability to steward process safety (not to be confused with functional safety; ie lost time accidents to workers, etc)due to underfunding, understaffing, and political proximity to Big Oils grandeur & largesse will necessarily be remedied at some levels. On the other hand, the changes needed may be far too (politically) expensive...either way, a new world is definately emerging.
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Ref 62 powermeerkat-
"'A man on a Greyhound bus travelling across the Canadian Prairies has killed and decapitated a fellow passenger."
The Manitoba bus slaying happened in the summer of 2008. What motivated you to bring this up at this time; on this thread? Are you just getting caught up on the news?
Don't want to spoil your surprise; but the criminally insane murderer on the Manitoba bus was convicted and put away in a secure place.
Let me help you out a little on current events. In the spring of 2010, there is a massive oil well blow-out in the Gulf of Mexico spewing thousands of barrels of oil a day into the, once fertile waters. BP is destroying the livelihood of thousands of people. The impact of their inability to stop the eruption of contaminating crude into the Gulf is very likely to effect the environment and livelihood of thousands more.
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Re #68 Andrea
Our president's intelligence chief (Blair) has resigned after Obama's Administration's recent snafus re terrorism-combatting on U.S. soil have become patently obvious to everybody.
Napolitano should be bext.
[BP top liers will of course not resign]
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Saint Dominick asks: Are you just getting caught up on the news?
Yes. Only yesterday I've finally realised we elected a bona fide village idiot to the top executive position in this country.
[And I don't mean the BP president]
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74. At 4:48pm on 23 May 2010, you wrote:
# 65 SaintDominick wrote [to MK]
"You either don't have a good grasp of economic principles and how our government works, or you are so partisan that you don't hesitate to make the most outlanding claims even if doing so undermines your credibility."
Sorry to be picky, Saint, but I have just spotted another fatal flaw in your argument.
It is impossible to undermine that which does not exist.
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79. At 6:27pm on 23 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Yes. Only yesterday I've finally realised we elected a bona fide village idiot to the top executive position in this country."
____________
That's what comes of reveling in the mountain hollows of the Merrkatskills ...
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78. At 6:23pm on 23 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
[BP top liers will of course not resign]
____________
BP guys travel in Pullman Cars?
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# 82 Interestedforeigner wrote [to powermeerkat]
"BP guys travel in Pullman Cars?"
Oooooh, IF, you mustn't correct PMK's spelling!
He hates that...
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Ref 77, publius
"The impact of their inability to stop the eruption of contaminating crude into the Gulf is very likely to effect the environment and livelihood of thousands more."
I am not about to come to the defense of BP, but the sad truth is that they are not the only ones that don't know how to stop oil flowing from this well. Neither BP, nor anyone else in the industry, government or private industry have been able to come up with a solution to this disaster. Everything they have tried failed. Maybe they should implode the well and hope they don't make the problem worse than it already is.
What is happening highlights the risks inherent in offshore drilling, particularly in an area where powerful hurricanes are commonplace. Fisheries are being destroyed and with it the livelihood of thousands of people in the region. In addition to huge damage to flora and fauna in the region, several beaches from Louisiana to Florida are being affected, and the likelihood of a major impact to tourism is definitely there.
Something like this could have happened to any operator, not just BP and its subcontractors, and insensitive comments from corporate CEOs are nothing new, but the arrogance and insensitivity of the BP CEO sets him apart from most.
Yes, the Caribbean Sea is big and not all of it has been destroyed by the spill, but that doesn't mitigate the scope and impact of this disaster. He would be well served keeping his mouth shut and letting his lawyers do the talking. In addition to paying for damages, BP executives should tour the region, talk to people, show concern, be candid, and offer help to mitigate the effect of the spill.
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Who wants to bet when President Obama honors the Lebanese PM, he will put no pressure on Lebanon giving sanctuary to the terrorist group Hezbollah
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83. At 8:22pm on 23 May 2010, John_From_Dublin wrote:
Oooooh, IF, you mustn't correct PMK's spelling!
He hates that...
____________
You can tell things are slow on the blog when postings are reduced to puns and making light of unintentional meanings.
In any case, it is a lovely day to celebrate Queen Victoria's birthday, and this year the holiday Monday actually falls on the right day. This is the traditional date here either to open the cottage (if you own a cottage), or to do gardening (the garden centers are packed).
Where has that Mardell fellow gone?
They seek him here.
They seek him there.
They seek the fellow everywhere.
Where has he gone?
We cannot tell.
That dam'ned elusive Mark Mardell
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Just to be clear, and so we dont get hijacked with tales of decapitation, Lebanon and Barney Frank (the figure skater); crawfish are fresh water mudbugs and will not be affected by the well disaster. In fact, I would bet the good ole boys on the coast that earn their money from aquaculture in lieu of saltwater fishing are actually smiling all the way to the bank. Ya'll know, stupid is as stupid does.
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Ref 84 SaintDominick-
"I am not about to come to the defense of BP, but the sad truth is that they are not the only ones that don't know how to stop oil flowing from this well."
I do know that this kind of blow-out could have happened with any company. BP is suppressing information and data so that nobody else can provide meaningful assistance. I believe this suppression of information and data is intentional in a desperate attempt by BP to try and limit damages charged against them.
Each day makes it more evident that BP needs all the help they can get to stop this continuing disaster. You noted that the BP CEO is arrogant and insensitive. I would add idiocy to that evaluation.
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Ref 86, InterestedForeigner
"Where has that Mardell fellow gone?"
He is probably taking a close look at the menu and trying to decide whether to order some good creole food, oily shrimp, or crawfish. I doubt he will find Lebanese dishes where he is at though.
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St. D.
Don't know about that. You find enterprising Lebanese almost everywhere.
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Interestedforeigner wrote:
"Well, it isn't obvious to the very large majority of people in this country"
What country, Canada? What does Canada have to do with the American right to bear arms?!
I don't care if you and your fellow Canadians believe in the tooth fairy! I'm sure most Americans couldn't care less either! This is an issue that isn't even any of your business or the business of your country!
"and I rather suspect that if a referendum were held in the US the majority of Americans would agree."
You obviously have no clue how Americans think! Are you another American wannabe that thinks he knows more about America than the Americans themselves?
Even though I said I wouldn't respond to someone that likens Arizonans enforcing American immigration laws to the Nazis rounding up people to be murdered I will by now asking you how you can logically come up with a scenario that places a gun in the hands of a criminal but yet somehow in that same scenario the average law abiding citizen is unarmed while keeping in mind that your argument is against the right of law abiding citizens to be equally armed??
You and the other person are making no sense, the same as you did with your disgusting Nazi and Holocaust remarks!
Do you understand the concept of logic and reason??!
"As for the thing being "much less likely to happen in the first place", first, can you provide some statistical data to back that up?"
Commonsense and logic. Any reasonable person would agree that if everyone was armed on that bus the victim would have had much more of a chance of being saved, number one, and number two, criminals would be less likely to risk committing such an act in the first place knowing they would likely end up being killed by an armed law abiding citizen.
"Second, given that this is (as far as I know) a unique crime in Canadian history, if not in North American history, (complete stranger, apparently no previous record of criminal convictions, random murder, on public transport, beheading),"
Who cares if the person was beheaded! The person was obviously dead well before that! Nothing "unique" about a random act of violence leading to murder.
"I'm a bit curious what you consider "much less likely" to be?"
Read again what I wrote!
"Third, although you have made it in a somewhat backward way, the point that public safety legislation should not be made on the basis of anecdote (i.e., non-statistically significant recitation of unrelated incidents, lacking any basis as scientific analysis) is a good one."
None of the points I have made are in accordance with your illogical and disgusting remarks, past and present.
"It is, however, rather odd to hear that argument from anyone who laps up the NRA pablum. The NRA is notorious for its reliance on just that kind of grossly intellectually dishonest nonsense as its stock in trade."
So let me guess, I am now an NRA member "who laps up the NRA pablum" just like Arizonans supporting enforcing immigration control are like Nazis rounding up Jews to be murdered?
Going by your kind of logic, of course.
"Better to ask: America has 11,000 - 12,000 more gun murders per year than it might reasonably be expected to have on the basis of statistical comparison with other rich democracies. Why?"
Did it ever occur to you that Americans may simply be more violent??
Swiss citizens have arms in their homes and they don't have the same levels of violence. I don't see you or your interfering type arguing for their guns to be taken away!
"What benefit is America obtaining from this policy that is worth more than the lives of something like 2/3 of a million Americans since the end of WWII, and correspondingly many permanent injuries?"
The American people should always be armed just as our Founding Fathers believed! The same kind of thinking could have saved Germany and Europe from the Nazis!
You actually think you can counter the intellect of some of the most intelligent and wisest men that have ever lived? You, an illogical, interfering foreigner that likens Arizonans enforcing immigration laws to Nazis rounding up Jews for execution.
The "benefit" they obtain is their concern, not yours! I'll say it again, you are not American and this issue is none of your business and not the business of your country!!
Capisce?!
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Slow day, indeed, IF.
Why don't you get busy, and finally get those Sikh terrorists, even though decades later?
Before one of them cuts off you head with a kukri knife? In 2010?
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#91
AllenT2
I guess this means you'll now stop posting on any non-American issues then? .No more commenting on the euro or on whether temporary UK residents should be allowed to vote? Perhaps a "foreign" state-funded website is not the place for you to be.
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91. At 06:37am on 24 May 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
Interestedforeigner wrote:
What country, Canada? What does Canada have to do with the American right to bear arms?!
I don't care if you and your fellow Canadians believe in the tooth fairy! I'm sure most Americans couldn't care less either! This is an issue that isn't even any of your business or the business of your country!
"and I rather suspect that if a referendum were held in the US the majority of Americans would agree."
You obviously have no clue how Americans think!
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Well, first, the murder was on a bus in Manitoba,
... so following your own logic it's surprising you are expressing an opinion ...
Second, the majority of Americans are not in favour of unlimited gun ownership. There is a huge range of views in America, and the broad middle of American public opinion favours gun ownership within reasonable limits. Very few Americans, for example, support a right to private ownership of machine guns and recoilless rifles. In the cities, a very substantial portion of Americans would be in favour of no guns at all. In any case, there is a large range of views.
Third, given that this is apparently a unique event, for your "solution" to work, there would have to be armed passengers on every bus on every route in the country. And since you could never tell which ones were nut cases, everyone would have to be armed. To our way of thinking, that makes it far more likely that stupid arguments and disagreements that might otherwise result, at most, in a black eye have a much larger probability of resulting in death.
We do not want untrained amateurs with emotional problems, few brains and less judgment walking around with the arbitrary ability to exercise the power of life or death over the people who have the misfortune to cross their paths. The reason that seems stupid to us is because it is.
Because we, and virtually every other rich western nation have understood this basic issue of probability, we have roughly 1800 fewer gun murders per year than we would do it we had the same approach as our southern neighbours.
Put differently, in America every year, there are the equivalent of four World Trade Center attacks worth of gun murders than could be easily avoided.
You'd have to be pretty callous about the value of other people's lives to think that's acceptable in a democracy governed by the rule of law.
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91. At 06:37am on 24 May 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"You and the other person are making no sense, the same as you did with your disgusting Nazi and Holocaust remarks!"
Well, actually that was in Mark Mardell's comment that started the Arizona string:
"Politicians from the City of the Angels have accused the state of Arizona of doing the devil's work, introducing Nazi-style laws. The conflict is of course about illegal immigration, in a state where new proposals are rubbing hard the old sore of racial discrimination."
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Test
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91. At 06:37am on 24 May 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"You and the other person are making no sense, the same as you did with your disgusting Nazi and Holocaust remarks!"
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Well, no, that was actually started in Mark Mardell's own commentary in the Arizona string:
"Politicians from the City of the Angels have accused the state of Arizona of doing the devil's work, introducing Nazi-style laws. The conflict is of course about illegal immigration, in a state where new proposals are rubbing hard the old sore of racial discrimination."
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91. At 06:37am on 24 May 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"Commonsense and logic. Any reasonable person would agree that if everyone was armed on that bus the victim would have had much more of a chance of being saved, number one, and number two, criminals would be less likely to risk committing such an act in the first place knowing they would likely end up being killed by an armed law abiding citizen."
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Regrettably, there is neither commonsense nor logic in your commentary. There is a lot of fantasy, however.
"Criminals would be less likely to risk ..."
There it is. The classic NRA tactic of conjuring up anonymous "criminals" so that you can avoid looking at actual facts. I love it.
The guy had no criminal record.
He was a nut case.
Do you really think that a guy who slices off another person's head, carries it to the front of the bus, and swings it in front of the window for the other horrified passengers to see is a rational human being?
Do you really think that someone who does that is playing with a full deck?
And you think that person is going to be concerned with whether others are carrying weapons?
With your "solution", in a dark crowded bus, the chances are very high that there would have been more bloodshed, not less, and that some innocent other person would have been shot in the cross-fire.
Commonsense and logic?
Clearly you are not acquainted with either.
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91. At 06:37am on 24 May 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
So let me guess, I am now an NRA member "who laps up the NRA pablum" ...
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No, I rather suspect that you have been for a long time.
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91. At 06:37am on 24 May 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
Did it ever occur to you that Americans may simply be more violent??
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Maybe, but in a lifetime of dealing with Americans I have found them to be kind and generous. Americans are no more inherently violent than Canadians, or Brits - and certainly not an order of magnitude more violent as the gun death figures would suggest. Odd that on other measures of violent crime those three nations have very similar crime rates. Just not guns.
A logical person would ask why, and then take logical, reasonable steps to correct the problem.
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91. At 06:37am on 24 May 2010, AllenT2
I realize that there is an oversight in one of the previous postings.
Given the lack of general knowledge evident in your postings, it may perhaps be helpful to point out that Manitoba is a Province in Canada.
You can find it on the map north of Minnesota, between Ontario and Saskatchewan.
Minnesota is one of the US States, it is west of Wisconsin, and east of the Dakotas. Wisconsin is north of Illinois, and west of Michigan.
Chicago is in Illinois.
Presumably you can find Chicago on a map. It's in the middle of the continent at the SW end of Lake Michigan - you know, the long thin one that runs predominantly north-south.
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92. At 12:57pm on 24 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Slow day, indeed, IF.
Why don't you get busy, and finally get those Sikh terrorists, even though decades later?
Before one of them cuts off you head with a kukri knife? In 2010?
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There's a double jeopardy problem there. The investigation and prosecution were very badly botched. The RCMP still think they had the right guys, but they couldn't get a conviction.
As for the kukri, I thought Sikhs had kirpans? I thought it was the Gurkhas that carry the kukri. Now there's a unit with a long and very proud history.
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IF, I don't care what knife it is, and whether it's Greuhoud or Redhunt.
Just try&get those guys.
Good luck!
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New Orleans is better served with a scientific development of hydrogen fuel. The move would reduce our reliance on petroleum. Super-collider experiments demonstrate the effectiveness of hydrogen in combustion. The commerical sale of hydrogen allows its use for space flight and automobiles.
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Instead of shooting golf balls and dirt down to cap off the spill, why not use membrane-coated hydraulic cement packs, timed to be released at a certain point (which determines the membrane thickness). You know, like these new dish-washing packs that they have now that dissolve in water. Maybe they are trying this though. I have used this hydraulic cement many times and nothing will overtake that.
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