Where is the Democrats' oomph?
Fairfax, Virginia. Is Obama the only Democrat with any oomph?
President Obama has them whooping and hollering in what I imagine is his last rally before the big vote on what he calls "the patients' charter on steroids". We can't say for sure - as we don't know for sure - that the vote is on Sunday, or indeed what his weekend plans are. He's in the Patriot Centre, a huge hall, on the George Mason University campus. The White House pool reporter estimates there are 8,500 people here, although that sounds a bit over-the-top to me.
Obama is, once again, in fine and fiery form. He delivers much the same speech as he has been making all around the country, with a special few tweaks as the time draws near. He tells supporters this is not about politics and the chatter on cable TV and in Washington.
"What they like to talk about is the politics of the vote. What does this mean in November? What does it mean to the poll numbers? Is this more of an advantage for Democrats or Republicans? What's it going to mean for Obama? Will his presidency be crippled?"
The crowd roars "noooooo" and he continues "or will he be the comeback kid?" "Yeeeees."
Maybe somewhere in between, if he gets the vote to go his way. If it is Sunday, it probably means it is in the bag. There is, after all, no point in calling a vote you are going to lose. He tells the crowd:
"We've had historic votes before. We had a historic vote to put Social Security in place to make sure that our elderly did not live out their golden years in poverty. We had a historic vote in civil rights to make sure that everybody was equal under the law. As messy as this process is, as frustrating as this process is, as ugly as this process can be, when we have faced such decisions in our past, this nation, time and time again, has chosen to extend its promise to more of its people."
Obama ends by telling them:
"You've got to stand with me, just like you did three years ago, and make some phone calls and knock on some doors, talk to your parents, talk to your friends. Do not quit, do not give up, we keep on going. We are going to get this done. We are going to make history."
I've no idea what supporters of the bill have been telling their neighbours and family, but I haven't seen many of them on the streets.
I can't help thinking the Democrats haven't been trying or even thinking that hard about how to win this argument. The president seems sometimes like a one-man band, the only guy making a forceful, passionate case. Of course, at these rallies there are often people who've suffered under the current system (there weren't today) but where are the parades, where are the demos by those in favour of the bill?
When we were in Pennsylvania the other day, we were trying to find out what the pro-reform organisation was doing. Finally they told us about a demo outside Congressman Jason Altmire's office. When we told them to hang on, we were 40 miles away, they told us they didn't want the press there. It's a weird way of getting your message out.
Opponents of the bill will say it's because no-one wants it. Certainly, this watered-down mishmash of compromises doesn't inspire passion in those Democrats I have met. But the party doesn't seem to be that bothered.
Outside the meeting in Fairfax, hours before Obama arrived, people with blue badges reading "volunteer" were queueing up. At first they, too, told me they were not meant to talk to the press, but I was without TV camera or indeed notebook and went on chatting. They thought the bill was a good thing, were sure it would pass but there was no passion, nor attempt to persuade. It is so very different from the Tea Party people who, despite their well-known views on the mainstream media, are very ready to help and put their view across with great gusto.
I wasn't here during the presidential campaign but everyone tells me the Obama organisation was highly professional and highly motivated, driven by enthusiastic supporters. Now the party seems deflated, with no desire to motivate the people, or more to the point suggest they represent the people.
I can't explain this lack of oomph but it could be deadly. If there is such a thing as a will to win, is there a will to lose as well?
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
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Just like all his other public appearances to hype the health care "reform" bill, Obama was talking to the choir once more. I wonder why he doesn't address one of the Tea Party rallies, and get some real idea of the majority opposition to this monstrosity.
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Nobody cares what Obama says about healthcare reform anymore.
Anyone watching can see Pelosi is running the show. Obama's just the cheerleader.
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Mark:
Give us a break, would ya?
Democrats went into last election believing that change was coming. No more politics as usual. The country would realize that we're all in this together and work towrds a common goal.
I think the party does earnestly believe that this health bill is worth giving a try. It's a far cry from being a perfect fix, but it does do some good things. Nothing's set in cement.
We could have done better.
If it passes through the use of some esoteric parliamentary procedure, everyone understands what that means: we've utterly failed to unify the country. As a matter of fact, we've made it worse.
It's damned discouraging.
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The Obama bill will do practically NOTHING to reduce the amount the US spends on healthcare (currently around twice what Europeans pay). It will also do practically NOTHING to curb the annual increase in costs. BIG FAILURE!!!
It will extend health coverage and subsidize low and moderate income earners by taxing the rich. Well, a good populist solution (and the rich can afford it), but it does not solve the problem of growing costs.
The US Press says almost nothing about this but frames the debate purely in political terms: will Democratic strategy beat Republican strategy. The Democrats have avoided the hard, substantive arguments and have, instead, relied on whipping up emotions. Sadly, the Republicans have offered next to no counter-argument. So the real debate about the real issues has not happened yet.
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Maybe they're just trying to be classy? Maybe they are the silent majority (hence the silence)? Maybe when you hear so much shouting and screaming and loud false witness you can't hear the normals anymore?
Here's press from the Altmire protests...see how classy (for PA) the 'for reform' group looks, and how rabid appear the 'againsts'?
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10075/1043246-100.stm
Or look at these coffee party vs tea party sites: coffee party site: cheerful, polite, factual, mellow, bit dull...tea party site: scary, rude, threatening..
http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/
http://www.teaparty.org/
The violence stems from something a little deeper than insurance industry regulatory reform... this is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJkHykGRXrw
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Mark, don't let perceptions or Republican hollering influence your opinion. Yes, conservatives are against reform, but most Democrats are very much in favor of it.
Regarding the commitment and focus of the Democratic leadership to implement healthcare reform I can tell you that I receive half a dozen e-mails a day asking me to call or e-mail my representative in Congress, who happens to be a Republican (Mica R-FL), urging him to support reform. Tens of thousands of Democrats are responding to those calls for action and remain hopeful our ineffective healthcare system will finally be changed for the better.
Claims that President Obama is not listening to the American people are misleading, he is not listening to conservatives but he is doing what most Democrats, the people that elected him, want him to do.
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I wonder what the reluctance to deal with the media means, too. I have encountered it before, the strange avoidance of opportunities to get one's point-of-view across, to continue the argument on all fronts; I always feel more than a little disturbed by it. I think it often means that those in an organization, be it a union, political party or civic group, seem to feel that the media has been entirely captured by the opposition, and that there is no way they will get a fair hearing, or they fear their words will be twisted into some caricature of their true intent. I think anyone who works in the media, or who has the slightest interest in the News, should be concerned about that.
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3. At 10:34pm on 19 Mar 2010, Andy Post wrote:
"Democrats went into last election believing that change was coming. No more politics as usual. "
And they got it, this administration went even more corrupt and opaque than usual, not what I was hoping for.
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You need to lighten up a bit!
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It is the Patriot CentER. You can still call it a centre but stop changing the spelling of the proper noun. The British media always does this.
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starFloridian - has it ever occurred to any of your baying camp followers of the raving right what a laughing stock you are to the rest of us in other countries? As the supposed leader of the western world - a country which has 30 million of its people outside of ANY health care is a disgrace and is deserving of the utmost contempt. The outright lies of the Fox News led mob is beyond belief and it leaves me incredulous at the sheer absurdity of it all. You all have a chance to do something for your fellow citizens - what is the problem with universal health care anyway as it denotes a caring society, perhaps that is beyond your ken????
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Learn a little patience folks. I am sixty yrs old and have seen the same situation happen several times. The fight for medicare was rancourous. The 1960 civil rights movement was long and bloody. I mean people getting killed. The Vietnam protest lasted for over 10 years. Now that was a real youth movement. One year and you are giving up. I lived through the cold war times...I am resilent!!! In the end, about 99 percent will think back and wonder why all the doom and gloom and scare tactics were used. In just a year or two many will disavow the Republican party for the inaccuracies, untruths, scare tactics, etc. It will affect that party negatively. Mark my words. By the way, I worked inside the Republican party for over 25 years...long enough to speak my mind.
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Have you ever attend an event and instead of taking a count they used the loudest voices to carry the day? Loud and angry does not mean majority support. But it can and does infect others. The silent majority do not want to be associated with those who are hot heads.
Patience, patience. But do call and email your support for either side.
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Obama IS nothing but a cheerleader. He ran a hollow campaign riffing on the theme of the need for change and pointed to pie in the sky and said it would be all be for free.
What Obama is doing NOW is distracting the media, including YOU, Mark from what is REALLY going on..the backroom deals made by Obama's appartcheks, (notice how Obama is distancing himself personally for the sake of plausible denial)....and the Democrats are doing their best to destroy the Constitution with this rotten reconcilliation process. Even the so-called impartial Congressional Budget Office has been co-opted...suddenly finding that this MONSTROUS legislation is getting cheaper and cheaper...and also handily providing and excuse for "budgetary" reconciliation!
So, Obama is putting on the half-time show....he is a hollow drum making a lot of noise!
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Obama has a lot at stake, thus his cheerleading.
This process has become such a mess. It's very easy to lose track of what is happening with the House and Senate bills.
Funny that Obama should now declare that people aren't interested in the "process". Sure seemed like that's exactly what he promised to change.
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Like in any long winding, never ending war of attrition, foot soldiers have become numb to its original aims. They are battle wearied. The President has wisely taken the helm and will assuredly bring health Insurance reform to Port.
The American People shall ever be grateful to him. In deeds, a Commander-in-chief outgrows mere Protocol and comes to embody the noble ideals of his Constitutional attributions; a rare occurrence indeed.
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Mark you are just not suited for this American assignment. You think you can talk to a few people in diners, or gauge sentiment of an entire nation by having a conversation on the street. Tsk, tsk. No wonder things get lost in translation. This HISTORIC bill will pass this weekend in the House. Reconciled and pass in the Senate next week. Your only task then is to find something else to poo poo about President Obama and America. To the management at the BBC: next time brings someone who can actually figure us out, not someone for the Victorian era of empire and colonies to lord over.
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Marc why didn't you investigate the crowd how many were parasites from the SEIU and other special interest groups who get special privilidges under this bill.
Why don't you talk to some of the tea party people who are not automatons like the Obama supporters.
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Shortly after lunch, my son, a university sophomore, text me to tell me another member of the House changed to a "yes" vote. I text back remarking he was watching history in action. He text back, "Huh?"
I text back to watch the President's actions: steadfast, doing something for the good of others, courage, taking action and by his action, spreading resolute courage. I finished by suggesting that at this moment he compare President Obama's leadership to the leadership actions of Caesar before battle, to the legend of King Angus MacFergus before battle at Athlestaneford, to Henry V at Agincourt, to FDR during the Depression and to Churchill during WW II.
(Yes, my son and I really do use such marks from history to talk with each other.)
He text back, "Dad, what I'm witnessing is the back of a white truck in slow-moving traffic." Good fellow.
As I wrote in the NY Times a week ago. "First we get this moral insanity fixed. Then we fix our financial insanity. That's called getting your priorities straight. Passing this bill signals that we're putting health care first. I want this bill passed." That comment that day and similar comments two days later by others in the NY Times had a roaring avalanche of support.
Nobody at such a rally is arguing about the details of health care. The majority of Americans understand how far behind is the United States in health care among the industrialized nations. Support is no longer about the details. Support is now about this Nation collectively awakening to the fact we must get started. When people are resolute, they tend to be quiet.
Geez, Mark. What sort of bedtime stories do you tell your children to strengthen their sense of personal courage and to teach them the characteristics of great leadership in which to trust when attacked on all sides? Liam Jumper
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@3 (AP: "If it passes through the use of some esoteric parliamentary procedure, everyone understands what that means: we've utterly failed to unify the country. As a matter of fact, we've made it worse."
Andy: This is what I was alluding to in our previous discussion. If it passes through esoteric political maneuvering, it will just mean one more turn of the blade in the gut of the body politic. We don't have infinite capacity to soak up that kind of nonsense forever; yet the current occupants of Capitol Hill, regardless of party, simply do not understand this.
The governance price far outweighs the political power benefit. Our leaders have to understand, unless they are complete idiots, that it's going to require the real participation of the Amerioan people, and their willingness to both make changes and make sacrifices, in order to make progress on the problems facing the nation. It can't all be solved from Washington. If, however, chicanery is used to pass this or any other bill, the American people's faith in their system of government, and in the rule of law, will be inevitably diminished, because they will have just seen with their own eyes their leaders demonstrate their OWN lack of faith in that system of government, by being willing to put political victory ahead of government without chicanery.
Would it show? Certainly Americans would continue to give lip service and wave their flags, but that's not important. What's important is this: Would they change? Would they sacrifice? Would they have the faith in our system of government to do so? I don't like to write this, but Americans are just like everyone else in this regard; they will not be nearly as inclined to sacrifice for a system that they don't have much (or any) any respect for. This loss of faith resulting in (a) further disengagement from the issues and affairs of the nation, the state, and even local government; and (b) resistance to necessary change and sacrifice, is the inevitable result of leaders running continuous campaigns instead of governing. The bill for this misbehavior, in terms of failure of the citizenry to believe, engage, and support/sacrifice/change, will absolutely be paid in full.
If health care does pass with shenanigans, the probability seems high to me that (a) we will have an ugly 2010 legislative session, and (b) summer / fall political campaigns will rival anything ever seen here for out-and-out viciousness. There will be no "reaching out", no "coming together", no matter how hard Obama or anyone else tries...just two political parties absolutely committed to dominating and humiliating each other, and attempting to motivate their bases to do so as well. Finally, the shenanigans used on this bill will certainly be used over and over again (because once a new political weapon is introduced, it just simply does NOT "go away"). The Ds will use reconciliation again and again, and they'll twist the rules of the Senate and House as necessary to do so. The Rs will observe closely, and when their time to lead returns, they'll do exactly the same things.
The question really comes back around to the citizenry. It seems to me they have a choice: either adopt the attitudes of their leaders with regard to how they treat each other and how they treat the nation and its laws, or else get rid of those leaders and elect men and women that more closely represent their own attitudes. The November elections will tell us a lot about which choice the American people make.
All: This is not a plea not to pass health care. As Mark pointed out, this thing appears to be in the bag and running on autopilot. I'm looking beyond it.
Regards to all! My wife and I are taking a short vacation...I should return Monday. By then I guess we'll start seeing what comes next...
Arclight
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What, someone referred me to the moderatiators because I linked to a clip from Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles to illustrate a likely basis for emotional responses to an insurance industry regulatory bill in the US? When Mardell posted the topic of "ooomph"? Why, Blazing Saddles is a legend broadcast on Sunday afternoons by major networks - How very anti-semitic of y'all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJkHykGRXrw
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..but then on a brighter note, we'll all come together, passing health care reform, then bettering it, and moving on through evolution to some sanity....in time, 100 years per Keynes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Basically its culture shock, like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPcLPzItOQs&feature=related
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These are dark days for the Republic! Our Nation may begin it's downfall this weekend. There are lots of arguments on both sides, some good, most bad. But anyone who thinks they know for a fact what the passage or non-passage of this bill will do, GOP or Dem, you don;t know. No one does. http://patrioticmobster.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/csi-washington-lady-liberty-dead-on-the-house-floor/
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As an Obama supporter here in Fairfax who worked hard to put my guy in the White House throughout 2008, I have been just kicking myself that I had to go to work, as I had been asked to volunteer for the rally and would have loved to do so. Why no perceived oomph on the street? Let me explain.
First, we just dug out from the worst winter storm in our region's entire recorded history a month ago and today was the first nice springlike weather. Balmy spring breezes are not what usually get me fired up and ready to go. That's why the tea partiers were out in such small numbers (compared to their usual) as well. Add to this the start of the "March Madness" college basketball season late into the night the night before.
Second, as you point out, there's really nothing that individual people can be asked to do that amounts to much, and they are smart enough to know it. Why knock on doors or talk up the issue? It's out of our hands and in the hands of Congress. There is no election for a long time (November) so they can't be asked to vote and it's really too early even to campaign for the fall candidates. People at an event like this are probably already registered to vote, and it's a bit early for that, as well. This was an event to show the enthusiasm of the rally attendees, which was obvious, for wavering Congessmen from all over.
Third, our representatives here in northern Virginia are not on the fence and we already know how they will vote, so there's no suspense. There's still a little suspense re the overall vote (as opposed to our local Congressmen), but frankly, it will go through.
Fourth and finally, Virginia had its traditional countercyclical backlash and elected a slew of Republicans in our statewide elections, which take place in odd years right after the presidential contests. Only New Jersey has elections then as well. So, Democrats here are still licking their wounds from that one. Obama was the election before that for Virginians, not the most recent election.
I'm not too worried -- yet. Start taking the temperature of voters around August and September, and you'll get a more reliable gauge of where things are headed.
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In 1965, congress under Lyndon Johnson enacted both Medicare (for people of 65 years and older) and Medicaid. The purpose of Medicaid was to pay for medical expenses for citizens whose income was sufficient for day to day expenses, but not for the catastrophic event (major accident, cancer, Heart Attack). Each state sets its own eligibility for Medicaid. As a result, many fall through the cracks - the homeless (no fixed address to collect benefits) migrant farm laborers, those who haven't lived in the state long enough. Many young adults in 20s and 30s think that they are invulnerable, don't buy health insurance for that reason.
The state of Massachusetts probably does the best job of tailoring their Medicaid program to the real needs of their residents; but it's expensive to do; and many states want the Federal govt to pick up an increased portion of the Medicaid costs, particularly if they are expanded.
Also, not having health insurance is NOT the same as not having medical care. Many US residents have no family doctors or insurance, wind up in the ERs when bad things happen.
If the Democratic advocates for the current "Reform" act really believed that 30 million + did not currently have medical care, the legislation would have provided for an increase of ten % or more in the number of MDs, RNs and clinics.
As far as controlling costs: Some cities have Urgent Care Centers - open 24-7, under the general supervision of a family practice MD on call, and with an experienced RN as supervisor for each shift. These should have equipment to cope with routine aid for minor injuries and X-Ray equipment, but refer the Heart Attack cases on to the ERs. A major expansion of the Urgent Care Centers should reduce the overuse of the ERs, saving some expense.
Also, nothing magic about having Federal govt impose a new layer of regulation over health insurers already regulated by state insurance commisioners. Requiring all residents to buy insurance when more than ten percent are unemployed, and then subsidizing the premiums that they can't pay is an inferior solution compared to just fixing Medicaid to cover the treatment needed for medical care for those w/o jobs.
WHY NOT FIX MEDICAID instead of developing a bunch of new agencies, regulations, opportunities for those with political pull to obtain favorable contracts, etc.?
Perhaps it has become personal with Pres. Obama - he wants to be thought of as initiating a program like F. D. Roosevelt, rather than just fixing the existing program initiated by L. B. Johnson.
The larger the government, the more companies and individuals who are affected by it therefore need lobbyists to get their views and needs to the legislators.
Obamacare may become law; if so, we missed an opportunity to develop a logical fix to what our problems actually are, rather than going back and trying to reinvent the wheel.
TeaPot562
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Oh prairie s****t, you people are over-dramatizing what should be a simple solution to a costly problem with button pushing soup stirring. Gettin' used man.
These last minute anti-abortionists, who want to tell women what to do with their privacy and bodies, are the same ones who say regulating a national insurance industry is government interference over personal liberties. Jeesh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9_ipu9GKw
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Sorry Beck and Palin...nice try, but you'll have to do better than that.
heres reference to consequences of teagop oomph..IQ of what, 2?
http://www.adn.com/2010/03/19/1190475/palin-beck-to-alaska-patriots.html
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Mr. Mardell, You should have seen this debate when it first started to ramp up last summer. Obama's base was just had just as much spirit as it did when he was elected. However, if you tried to debate the anti-reformers, as i did, you would, as Barney Frank said, be, "arguing with a dining room table." they are motivated by a hatred of Obama, taxes and government spending, no matter how logical and moral our arguments were. For most of them, the only place they wanted their tax dollars to go was to war. For us Obama supporters, it was completely mind-boggling. after nearly a year of that, you would be done with it too.
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Ah - once upon a time this meant the beginning of the end...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNzmrEgz_GI
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ref #25
Fairfax Voter wrote:
As an Obama supporter here in Fairfax who worked hard to put my guy in the White House throughout 2008, I have been just kicking myself that I had to go to work, as I had been asked to volunteer for the rally and would have loved to do so. Why no perceived oomph on the street? Let me explain.
________________-
All good points, one more. Most people whether pro or con have to work for a living. I am self employed and pay a disproporiante amount of taxes expecially compared to goverment workers or SEIU parasites; and can't afford to take days or even half day to lobby a ridgid rep like Ed Markey who has not responded in 10 years to phone calls or emails.
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11. Peter Rogers wrote:
starFloridian - has it ever occurred to any of your baying camp followers of the raving right what a laughing stock you are to the rest of us in other countries? As the supposed leader of the western world
Well, assuming the opinion of anyone in the rest of the world actually matters, perhaps you and they should actually check what provision is ALREADY in place. Urgent care is already provided to ANYONE who cannot afford insurance. This new bill is just a power grab by the government and a money grab by the do-nothings.
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MM wrote: "they told us they didn't want the press there. It's a weird way of getting your message out."
No it isn't if you remember that the White House and Congressional Democrats , worked out a 'deal' behind closed doors' and refused to let C-SPAN cameras in despite earlier solemn promises of an 'open process'.
No, it's not weird at all; its their SOP [standard operating procedure].
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Re #32 Scherpupunkt opines:
"This new bill is just a power grab by the government and a money grab by the do-nothings."
Or, putting it milder, the ones insured differently. ;-)
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WHAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE GANDER SHALL BE MANDATORY FOR THE GOOSE!
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MM writes:
"I wasn't here during the presidential campaign but everyone tells me the Obama organisation was highly professional and highly motivated, driven by enthusiastic supporters. Now the party seems deflated, with no desire to motivate the people, or more to the point suggest they represent the people."
But I was there, and, yes, there was a general enthusiasm and a belief there' was a "time for change".
Even among many Republicans for whom soft spoken and looking tired and old John McCain represented more of the same.
The fear of the known has thus become smaller than a fear of the unknown, and majority of Americans voted for the unknown.
Who (Barack Husein Obama) turned out to be not only incompetent ([particularly and dangerously in the area of national defence and foreign policy) but, disappointingly to them, more of the same old s..t in the realm of the domestic policy.
Three years later, not only this meerkat thinks "it's time for change".
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MM asks: "is there a will to lose as well?"
No, MM. Not on an individual basis.
And that's why from now on is every elected Democrat for himself/herself.
And if in order to get re-elected in November they'll have to distance themselves from their President, they'll surely do it.
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"MONEY TALKS, S..T WALKS" (and old American proverb)
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Ref 35, powermeerkat
"Three years later, not only this meerkat thinks "it's time for change"."
President Obama has only been in office for a little over one year, and while some of us are disappointed with some of his foreign policy decisions, we are very happy with the changes he has made and is trying to make at home.
He has been true to his word and instead of taking the easy way out and trying to please everyone he has been focused on governing and leading the country...much to the consternation of the opposition who while claiming he is not changing anything demonize him for the changes he is making.
Obviously, conservatives don't like where he is taking us, detest his attempts to change the status quo, and deplore the dismantling of policies designed to benefit a few at the expense of many, but that is the political platform he ran on and the very reason so many of us voted for him and plan to do it again.
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Obama's in the Patriot Centre, George Mason University Campus. The White House pool reporter estimates 8,500 people here. Even if that’s a good estimate Northern Virginia - union, college, oodles of Democrats….and still Obama cannot fill the Patriot Centre's 10,000 seats?
No he can’t!
Obama may be able to get Obamacare paased.
Yes he might!
But Obama cannot make this “mishmash” work.
No he can’t!!
And therein may likely lie the reason for the lack of “oomph”. How do you oomph mishmash?
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Mark
No oomph? Be Fair. This is war.
These are important long term decisions and should be conducted with the same finesse shown in planning the fighting necessary in foreign campaigns. Obama's healthcare bill needs serious consideration so I can understand the lull in the proceedings. Seats in November on the gravy train depend upon it and require noble Congressmen to get their stories straight, excuses in order, to be able to look their electorate in the eye.
Damage control thinking is imperative .
Never regarded as the panacea to end all problems, yet even in it's present state it has become for many, both politician and public alike a bitter pill to swallow, [unlike the blue one], especially where either withdrawal or morning after remedies have been brought to the fore. [I am at a loss to understand why some can not see how their representatives in congress have their best interests at heart, having always considered support was imperative in these matters from all angles, irrespective of Christian or other influences of belief.]
Many politicians on both sides too are obviously in a panic, viewing the proposed cure as a suppository that despite cleansing the system might remove them as well. Simple papering over the cracks won't work this time so perhaps it is fortunate that reams and reams of discussion material has already been printed to help save them from embarrassment. Nothing like having a good exit strategy in place when required, and should it all go down the tubes, feel at least Obama can be flushed with pride in proposing this movement for change to the ongoing, unfair status quo.
Important considerations too for the slimline brigade, 'the tea party', where they have shown the weight of 40000 dead souls weighs nothing compared to the extra 30 million more that might be allowed on board swelling their numbers.. Frightening I imagine. though I do find it a misplaced comparison to regard the latter as parasites feeding off a host, and ignore the multi headed hydra of self gratification and interest at the top.
How can you be so flippant? So frivolous and offhand about one of the major decisions of this century? Laying back and dreaming about Europe does not wash in our small world today.
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Ref 32, Schwerpunkt
"Urgent care is already provided to ANYONE who cannot afford insurance. This new bill is just a power grab by the government and a money grab by the do-nothings."
The ill require more than just urgent care to survive and live a healthy life. The public option would have provided access to preventive as well as urgent care for everyone, would have lowered insurance premiums, and would have reduced the burden that healthcare represents for our business community. Sadly, "conservative" opposition succeeded in removing it from this bill.
Which specific facets of the proposed bill do you object to? Are you against ending the pre-existing condition clause, ending caps, regulating premiums, making healthcare available to all children? What exactly are you against other than claims of power grabs, Obamacare, death panels, tort reform and all the other claims that constitute the basis for opposition to reform?
The truth is that the only ALTERNATIVES offered by conservatives to fix what most Americans acknowledge is an ineffective healthcare system are nothing more than political arguments and suggestions of introducing Trojan horses designed to derail reform.
Well, 53% of American voters decided we had enough and elected a man who promised to change the status quo; and judging by the ravenous attacks President Obama is being subjected to he is succeeding in keeping his promise and in satisfying the wishes of his political base.
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Ref 39, watermanaquarius
"Nothing like having a good exit strategy in place when required, and should it all go down the tubes, feel at least Obama can be flushed with pride in proposing this movement for change to the ongoing, unfair status quo."
What center-right Democrats running for re-election don't seem to understand is that their Republican constituents will not vote for them even if they vote no, and that voting no guarantees their Democratic constituents will not vote for them either.
As a result, if they persist and vote no on reform the best thing they could do is update their resumes and start looking for another job...and at the moment there are not too many to be found.
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Ref 25, FairfaxVoter
"I'm not too worried -- yet. Start taking the temperature of voters around August and September, and you'll get a more reliable gauge of where things are headed."
You are right, and like you I suspect that after all the political fog dissipates and people take a closer look at what is being proposed and how beneficial the changes are to our society the effects of fearmongering will evaporate and common sense and pragmatism will prevail.
Another thing that is likely to happen in coming months, as soon as healthcare reform is out of the way, will be a greater focus on the economy, job creation, infrastructure, Wall Street regulation, education and other priorities of great interest to the American people.
While enthusiastic crowds of supporters are, indeed, a good tool to persuade wavering politicians a telephone call or e-mail expressing support can be just as effective.
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SaintDom, # 41
America will always be the young wine in the world rack of genuine democracy with any President, the temporary 4-8 year cork attempting to keep the contents in perfect order. Unfortunately some your side just point to the parts that fall to the bottom as the 'dregs' behind the clouding, yet completely ignore the scum that rises to the top, destroying the taste for all.
I only have admiration for Obama, one of a small few of Presidents to attempt to right the wrongs that have been continuing for too long and feel similar disappointment that both parties cannot consider that the general population comes first, and not the sinecures they enjoy.
Vernal Equinox 2010 today- where daylight becomes longer than darkness.
If I believed in horoscopes, my heart should take this as a good sign, but my head tells me to allow for horrorscopes as well. Fingers crossed eh.
Have a great day.
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The bleeding hearts need to read the constitution of the United States of America.
No where in it can I find that 'health care' is a right of the people - or something that can be forced on people by those in charge of the government. Perhaps you can.
I also do not see masses of people leaving the USA to go to other countries for their 'better' health care.
The USA still has the best health care in the entire world, period.
If the congress wanted to provide health care for the 30 million uninsured, let them add them to Medicare. Whoops! That part of the system is broke so they can't add them there.
Looks to me like any time the government gets involved in running anything, they either bankrupt it or destroy it.
I'm 75 years old and have never seen a more idiotic, queer bunch of politicians running this country.
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Re: 40 Saint Dominick
Could you show everyone where you got your information about "most Americans acknowledge is an ineffective healthcare system".
You sir, are one of the most bleeding of hearts.
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Charlie Corder # 44 / 45.
Are you an Alaskan?
Surely a little bit of red blood flowing through the system is better than ice cold water.
We, and many others obviously have a different constitution than you.
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Ref 10 - rcotten
We are divided by a common language - Oscar Wilde
Ref 17 - Barbara
I doubt Mark Mardell believes he is representing the views of the widest group of Americans - he is simply reporting on those he sits down and talks to, and is doing exactly what the description of this blog says at the top of the page. Their views, and his take on those views. Just as I doubt anyone reading your contributions might think "Ah! Now it's all clear! That's what America is saying!" Your views are yours alone, and Marks is reporting on people in the same way.
Ref 31 - MagicKirin
I think if I was your representative I 'd ignore you too.
_______________________________________________________________________________
There seems to be no winning for the Obamas of this world. He is accused of lack of transparency, yet when details are given out they are ignored or shouted down/
He is not 'listening to anybody except his own supporters' yet attempts at bi-partisan meetings are derided as political devices to bolster his 'ego'.
He holds meetings to consider opposing views and is accused of 'going behind closed doors'. Where should these meetings be - on the lawn in front of the White House?
He takes opinions on-board and modifies proposals and is accused of 'flip-flopping'.
He shows respect to leaders abroad, having the grace and manners to adapt his behaviour, bowing in respect in a nation where this is acceptable, and is seen as a traitor. No he's not - he's a courteous and acceptable face that TROTW can respect after years of boorish arrogance from his predecessor.
Democracy in action. Wonderful.
And of course, it is wonderful. We have the freedom to do all this, but need to be mindful of not destroying the very freedoms we care so much about by the blindness of partisanship.
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Re#37
SaintDominick
I understand wher you're coming from.
But pray, name me, one BHO's success in the area of national security and foreign policy.
Pretty relevant, I'd say, since he's our Commander-in-Chief and we're living in pretty dangerous world not run by exactly boy-scouts.
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ref #47
Ref 31 - MagicKirin
I think if I was your representative I 'd ignore you too.
____________
That is the attitude that give congress such a low approval rating. Markey boasts that he answers his constiuents but in my expereince and friends of mine he does not.
When living in CT, I did get responses.
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42. At 12:27pm on 20 Mar 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
" What center-right Democrats running for re-election don't seem to understand is that their Republican constituents will not vote for them even if they vote no, and that voting no guarantees their Democratic constituents will not vote for them either. "
Really? Every Democrat that voted against Clinton's health bill survived the '94 bloodletting, I am guessing they are looking real close at that right now.
Much of the problem the Democrats are having is due to them running a ton of conservatives in the '06 election, they won because the Republicans were....spending to much!!!!! No shock to me they they don't want to vote for this bill.
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46. At 1:48pm on 20 Mar 2010, watermanaquarius wrote:
"Surely a little bit of red blood flowing through the system is better than ice cold water."
Don't think much of either flows through hardened arteries. I've often mused about the consequences of so many 'heart bypass' operations being performed in the US. Very popular operation, I gather.
(I could find a lot on Google about increasing the production of milk from cows in the USA, but nary a word on increasing the amount of milk of human kindness.)
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17. At 02:30am on 20 Mar 2010, Barbara wrote:
"To the management at the BBC: next time brings someone who can actually figure us out, not someone for the Victorian era of empire and colonies to lord over."
Could you move that over to the 'British Empire' thread? It's gone so quiet there we're reduced to musing about moose-leg lampstands.
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52. squirrelist
I really don't think they will be happy until Mark talks to them personally, then at last Mark will have spoken with a "real" American.
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10079/1044307-455.stm
Well Yer fence sitter Altmire's a no. I wonder why the angry nasty people keep calling this 'Obamacare' - the bill's been on the floor for quite some time, was vocally supported when Clinton was in office, and was once introduced by the big R Nixon. Is it to excite those with deep feeling of left over racial superiority.
I think the lack of oomph is due to distaste for negativity and threats (see the tone of this tea party site) http://www.teaparty.org/ vs fer example the dull calm rationale of the coffee party site http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/
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This man lied during the campaign and continues to lie
His approval rating drops every time he opens his lying mouth and forked tong
The majority of Americans want no part of this government tackover
This is a one term presiding
It is one term to many for America
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Europeans are laughing at what has happened to America
Yearning to be free is no longer a draw
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The lack of "oomph" comes from the triumph of inexperience over enthusiasm that results in failure. Short of this legislation which is not passed yet, after more than a year in office President Obama cannot point to even one accomplishment of his administration. His bailout of the banks and GM, his drawdown of troops in Iraq, their buildup in Afghanistan were either in the works before he arrived on the scene or would have happened no matter who was elected. He has failed to rescue the economy no matter what the so called experts say. Remember these are the same experts who said there would be no recession three years ago.
This is the worst piece of legislation in living memory. Cobbled and patched together, imposed by arm twisting and dealing from the bottom of the deck, it stinks to high heaven anyway you look at it. What has been done can be undone and there will be plenty of time to dismantle it and replace it before it goes into effect. The drive to accomplish something, anything to give this administration credibility has brought us to this looming disaster. It not only accomplish what it sets out to, it will have far reaching consequential damage. If it passes, I wouldn't be surprised to see the stock market take a tumble. The deficit projections are nothing short of frightening. This way of running American can't be sustained much longer. The social welfare stat has to end.
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Ref. 8, csgators:
"And they got it, this administration went even more corrupt and opaque than usual, not what I was hoping for."
Support that assertion, please. That isn't my conclusion.
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Ref. 48, powermeerkat:
"But pray, name me, one BHO's success in the area of national security and foreign policy."
How about Iraq? Looks like we're going to be out of there sooner than anyone thought.
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Mark
You are spot on in your blog!!! There is no pro-movement for the bill. Even the democrats behind close doors will say, I don't like the bill....but we have to start somewhere. That is their best line....start somewhere??? Now you know why no one is rallying behind the bill.
The democrats have lost the independents and they know it. The independents are all about reducing the deficit and finical reform. This bill does neither. They know November is going to be a blood bath for them. Hard to get excited about that...........
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The President proposes, Congress disposes. That's how American government is supposed to legislate in five words or less. But President Obama didn't propose anything, all he had were campaign slogans. As a result, the Democrats in Congress cobbled together a bill or series of bills or whatever they can be called. A camel is a horse designed by a committee. This is a caravan of camels. Do Americans actually understand what is being proposed? Does Congress? Does anyone? What besides slogans would you expect from a community organizer? We used to have a different name for that kind of person, rabble rouser. President Obama never engineered or wrote any legislation himself, at least nothing of note during the year and a half he was in Congress before he began running for President. His skill in office shows it all too clearly. He's done so much backpeddaling out of necessity on foreign policy and domestic policy that he's gone nowhere.
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I voted for President Obama; I would vote for him again.
While he has not made miracles happen, I find him to be credible, very hardworking, reasonable, likeable, perseverant, and a credit to American politics and the presidency.
I pray for some guts on the part of U S congressmen/women to vote FOR something instead of against whatever might threaten their own personal election and cushy position. I pray, because apart from divine intervention in the hearts of these "leaders", they will only serve self and those who fork out the dollars. Insofar as listening to constituencies, what we hear in the press is a farce. Let's do some polling across neighborhoods, across race, across the nation.
I salute my president and pray for his wisdom and patience and fruitfulness as our leader.
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Ref 48 - powermeerkat
"Pray" consider the lessening of antagonism towards the States? Not easy to quantify I know, but it exists nontheless and will be make dialogue between nations much easier and safer.
The current lack of noise and excitement in the world where the US is present, should not be seen as a failure - we have all had enough of that with 'shock and awe' tactics that have destroyed countless lives, including many American lives.
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Re #59
"How about Iraq? Looks like we're going to be out of there sooner than anyone thought."
Oh, are we?
Because a labor lawyer who couldn't tell a barrel of a
rifle from its butt even if the latter hit him on his head says so? :)
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54. At 3:23pm on 20 Mar 2010, frayedcat wrote:
"Well Yer fence sitter Altmire's a no."
What a surprise. Somebody who has consistently voted on the 'right'. But he got a lot of publicity the last few days for making a decision that wasn't 'about politics' though.
[Muffles cynical snigger.]
It's called Obamacare--by both political persuasions, or all three if you count the Teapotty Tendency*--because it personalises an issue so that come 2011, the Democrats (as well as the Republicans) can blame every electoral, economic, military, or natural disaster before 2012 on Obama instead of their own actions or inactions. Like kids in the playground: "It wasn't my fault miss! He made me do it!"
(There's 'Obamageddon' among others, and one coinage I came across so offensive I won't quote it.)
As Mark might have suggested, but didn't, if the Democrats had demonstrated a bit more 'oomph' six months ago or more, they could surely have got a reform through without it being obscured by all sorts of probably unworkable compromises, individual financial sweeteners, in-built delays in provisions--some if this bill doesn't get into gear until 2018 (!) assuming those bits don't get abandoned or forgotten or emasculated long before then.
*OK, I'll call them that. Just to stop Meerkats going on and on. Even though 'teabaggers' seems like a good coinage to me--by analogy with 'carpetbaggers'. Similarly opportunistic, I'd have thought. Honestly, them meerkats are going to demand we stop mentioning a tea-leaf next just 'cos it's rhyming slang for thief.
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58. At 3:40pm on 20 Mar 2010, Andy Post wrote:
"Support that assertion, please. That isn't my conclusion."
Talks to press less then W:
http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/02/05/no-obama-press-conference-since-july-brief-encounters-with-wh-beat-reporters-rare-too/
Unprecedented number of czars not approved my the Senate. (32 vs 12 for W)
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/26779.html
Promised not to hire lobbyists; has at least 40 now:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Obama-makes-a-mockery-of-his-own-lobbyist-ban-83385832.html
Failure to broadcast health debates on C-Span as promised, by-passing the Congress with special rulings from the EPA on carbon. He has hired several tax cheats, including the Treasury Secretary. Etc, etc.
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Re by-pass surgeries...
No wonder why so many more more complicated by-pass surgeries are performed in U$A than in UK.
Those are pretty expensive procedures.
And people usually get what they pay for.
[Britons and Canadians who cannot afford to wait but can afford to pay, travel to U.S. for quadruple by-pass surgeries and other more sophisticated medical procedures they urgently need.]
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p Re #65
Thanks, squirrelist.
As you may have noticed I have stopped to refer to people seemingly much more acceptable to you than supporters of Tea Party (please, correct me if I'm wrong) as camel-philes, long time ago.
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37. At 11:14am on 20 Mar 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
"Ref 35, powermeerkat
"Three years later, not only this meerkat thinks "it's time for change"."
President Obama has only been in office for a little over one year"
You're ignoring the fact that the American right has hijacked the Tardis.
All terrorist attacks on the USA happened after Dubbya, for example. Reagan negotiated the Iran hostages release, not Carter. Republicans fought the Civil War to end slavery. Mohammed was born before Jesus so Christians have had to fight against Islam from the beginning. (This is one of my favourites.)
By November this year they'll be calling for Obama's impeachment on the grounds he's still in the White House two years after his term should have ended.
No wonder the Texas schoolboard thinks it's time to revise the textbooks, they've just not been keeping up.
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Well I for one am weary of being threatened (with violence too...these militia-type threats from fringies have to be against someone...I mean, who else are they going to shoot at apart from supporters of the icon of their discontent?). I'm convinced a piece of the problem stems from subconscious racial prejudice (a blow to the last shred of and sense of superiority some rural, broke, humiliated persons may have had after they lost their jobs, healthcare, home...at least they were white...).
I am weary of the many many many people, 20 yr olds, 80 yr olds, losing their homes or in credit default right now...IF my taxes will go up due to health care, then A) Exxon's and Haliburton's and GE's and George Bush's taxes pretty d***n well better go up too-and more than mine; and B) I would MUCH prefer that money went to a government system, rather than as profit to insurance companies or industry middlemen.
I am tired of the angry un-civil and rude drivel you see on this blog. At least Obama keeps on trying.
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powermeerkat .
You disappoint me. Another repeat of the fallacy that many Europeans / Canadians travel to the States for emergency surgery and then only quadruple by-passes at that. Thats what we can get here too whenever needed, at little or no cost.
And you always tell me everything in America is bigger and better
I would have at least thought you would have mentioned examples like Bill Clinton having been given a sextuple by-pass to function normally and Cheney, after pulling all those strings and having his multitude of fingers in different pies, a duodecuple by-pass was the treatment of choice.
Or are these hush hush specials just kept for special Americans in the know?
Goes to show how your earlier exaggerations can confuse us simple foreigners on medical matters.
BTW .
Here is where your moneys go
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Re Tardis...
I hate to tell you this but first terrorist attack on WTC took place years BEFORE U.S. invasion of Saddamite Iraq.
[I'll skip the Socialist Baath Party issue out of courtesy]
So I guess it must have been staged in retaliaton for them Crusades organized by U.S.; of course avant la lettre.
Although when I saw (on BBC video) signs at central London demonstration (please, don't ask me who organized it) saying "JESUS WAS A SLAVE OF ALLAH" I thought I ended in a time warp just like dr. Who.
Oh, tempora.
P.S. Yes, it WAS Ronald Reagan, not some peanut farmer.
Whose name I won't even mention, since it's still an anathema to DNC.
And rightly so.
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4MyPresident wrote:
I voted for President Obama; I would vote for him again.
While he has not made miracles happen, I find him to be credible, very hardworking, reasonable, likeable, perseverant, and a credit to American politics and the presidency.
I pray for some guts on the part of U S congressmen/women to vote FOR something instead of against whatever might threaten their own personal election and cushy position. I pray, because apart from divine intervention in the hearts of these "leaders", they will only serve self and those who fork out the dollars. Insofar as listening to constituencies, what we hear in the press is a farce. Let's do some polling across neighborhoods, across race, across the nation.
I salute my president and pray for his wisdom and patience and fruitfulness as our leader.
______________
I voted against President Obama and proudly would do it again even if it mean electing a President Palin. We have elected aman more interested in serving special interest like the SEIU, ACORN and other parasitic groups.
He has made major mistakes domesticly and has insulted some of our closest allies instead of showing them the respect and courtesy they deserve.
I commend the courage of the republicans and those Democrats who stand against this fiasco of a healthcare bill which is majorly flawed.
We need a President who looks out for U.S interests instead ofa utopian Global Kumbya.
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Just to be clear.
President Obama was not elected by a majority of Democrat and Liberal voters.
He was elected by a combination of Democrat/Liberal and Independent voters.
These independent voters are still just that they did not change over to Liberals.
What is making Democrats in the House nervous is the knowledge that there is a shift in the Independent camp.
This is indicated by the Election of the new Senator from Mass. taking Senator Kennedys seat.
President Obama is taking the tone that he has changed Indepentents into Democrates which is OK if it has happened. If not the balance of power in the House is going to shift.
O by the way it is Very American in that we as a people tend to tell our Government and leaders what to do rather than ask out leaders what we should do.
You could ask King George about that.
Bart
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60. Jill:
"The democrats have lost the independents and they know it. "
*********************
Which is why they're working frantically to keep their base. Who else do they have? Only the diehard left supports him at this point, the ones who will remain loyal to him no matter what. A lot of people are simply sick of him.
It is amusing to watch democrats try to get out of voting for the Senate bill because they don't want to be on record as having voted for it. The contortions are fascinating, especially because they think Americans won't notice.
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Re#63 amaryr
I don't think the issue here is posters who wonder what's going on in U.S.
And who've actually bothered to visit this country, traveled around, liked some things they've seen and disliked others or at least couldn't see a justification or find an explanation for them. And now offer a construtive suggestion or advice.
The problem people like myself have is some clearly alienated and embittered posters who, it seems, are willing to support any thug, any medieval regime, and find excuses for any terrorist as long think they can cause problems for U$A. A country they hate and resent almost as much as Israel.
And they'd love (although they'd never say it here expressis verbis) to simply to disappear from the world map.
Unless it became a merely impotent and failed entity, e.g., like EU.
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Ref 45, Charlie Corder
"Could you show everyone where you got your information about "most Americans acknowledge is an ineffective healthcare system"
I am neither a pollster nor a politician. My opinion is based on what I hear on TV; what relatives, friends and neighbors tell me, and what I read in blogs like this including comments from some of its most conservative participants.
Frankly, I don't believe there are too many conservatives who actually believe that. Most are convinced we have the best system in the world, have no problem with 30 million fellow Americans paying the consequences of inadequate healthcare (going to an ER after having a heart attack is not something we should boast about), and because of ideology. Moreover, their claim sounds hollow when you consider that they said the same thing every time healthcare reform has been attempted since Theodore Roosevelt.
"You sir, are one of the most bleeding of hearts."
Yes, and I am very proud of being so. I believe government has a role in protecting our physical security, educating our young, re-training the unemployed, protecting our environment, doing everything possible to guarantee continuous growth and progress, ensuring fiscal solvency, and respecting the sovereignty and choices of other nations.
On the other hand, I only support abortion when the life of the mother is in danger, I would support a constitutional ammendment to make balanced budgets mandatory, I strong regulatory practices of financial institutions, would ban lobbying, would put strict limits on campaign contributions, would dissolve NATO, and would close most US bases overseas among other things.
Above all, I support healthcare reform, including the public option, Social Security, MEDICARE, MEDICAID, the VA and just about all other programs...although I would reduce the DoD budget by 10% and the budget of all other departments and agencies by 5% to help balance the federal budget. Clear enough?
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Rule vs Lead
To talk about the difference between the two party politics, I feel that Pres Obama is missing a big oppurtunity right from the get go with Health Care as a whole.
When this process started he did not need any support from House or Senate Republicans because he has a majority of votes and did not have to bother with the political opposition.
So he ignored roughly 40 percent of the political leaders of the nation completly. Insulting to say the least and something that will have to be paid for over the next three years unless Democrats keep their control in both houses as Obama seems to think he will.
Rule is when you as a leader ignore all but your own friends and supporters, Unless you really think Republicans have no knowledge or skill to add to the government.
Lead is something else.
Bart
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Why is there more opposition to a bill designed to help people at home than there was to the various foreign wars we are now stuck in that cost trillions, kill thousands of our soldiers and have so far served us with no benefit whatsoever?
Let's get our priorities right.
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Bart (#78), the Republicans have been given ample opportunity to contribute to health care reform, but they have opted out.
It is ironic that the first president to propose national health care was a Republican, Theodore Roosevelt. There have been several Republican presidents since then, and there have been periods when the Republicans controlled Congress, yet we never got health care reform from them. If the only way we can get it is for the Democratic Party, after giving the Republicans a fair chance to participate, to go ahead without them, that works for me (an independent).
"Rule"? That's a joke. The President can't control members of his own party.
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Here is a link to an article on the subject of the negotiations to free the hostages in Iran at the end of the Carter administration:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,920959-1,00.html
The agreement was completed on the morning of January 20, inauguration day.
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Just watched pres. Obama's passionate appeal for a 'yes' vote.
He called a rotten compromise - 'historic'.
He also called U.S. the richest country in the world.
Which seems to indicate that our president not only doesn't have a clue what Americans are most concerned about now, but also that he doesn't even know what country he lives in (let alone allegedly leads).
BTW. Applause by the Democrats was atypically pretty anemic.
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Latest news is that the House will vote separately on the Senate bill and the reconciliation amendments (no "deem and pass"), but will vote on the reconciliation first.
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ref #79
shookster21 wrote:
Why is there more opposition to a bill designed to help people at home than there was to the various foreign wars we are now stuck in that cost trillions, kill thousands of our soldiers and have so far served us with no benefit whatsoever?
Let's get our priorities right.
__________
You and Ed Shultz dont listen or refuse to acknowledge the obvous. The majority of americans want reform just not this bill
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79. At 7:43pm on 20 Mar 2010, shookster21 wrote:
"Why is there more opposition to a bill designed to help people at home than there was to the various foreign wars we are now stuck in"
Because one protects Americans' health and well being at home and guarantees them a longer life and the other . . .
Ah.
Er. . .
I don't know.
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Why is the President going off having ra-ra meetings with (presumably) Democratic voters? It's Congeressmen and Senators who need to be geed up about it, isn't it?
Plenty of time to get the voters more enthusiastic about it between April and November, surely?
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68. At 4:52pm on 20 Mar 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Re #65 Thanks, squirrelist."
You're welcome. If you prefer "Tea Potty Party" I'll try to remember to use that.
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squirrelist (#86), the President's events help counter the (false) impression that the people are opposed to health care reform merely because a few people have been getting in the news by holding rallies against it. It's just PR, but without it we just hear every day from the House Minority Leader that the Democrats are going against the will of the people. Why give the "Tea Party" all the headlines?
A few people may be motivated to call their congressman because of his efforts. Some members of the House are getting on board at the last minute.
Today (Saturday) Obama is speaking to the Democratic caucus in the House.
I don't think the Senate is in play. They have the votes to pass the reconciliation bill, so I've read.
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Ref 70 - frayedcat
You are not alone being tired of the incivility and rude exchanges. It profits nobody and serves only to re-inforce prejudice. In this case - The Ugly American! And on a British site. Most of us are are not rude and ugly,`but all are tarnished by this behaviour.
It is perfectly possible to have completely opposing points of view and debate them robustly without resorting to the childish name-calling and put-downs that powermeerkat, magickirin and others seem to delight in. I know the form of public debate is far more barbed in the US than the UK, witness the snarkey, and sometimes downright dishonest TV campaigns the different pressure groups produce. I cannot imagine that any intelligent people are persuaded by such trivia - why is it tolerated?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 86, squirrelist
"Why is the President going off having ra-ra meetings with (presumably) Democratic voters? It's Congeressmen and Senators who need to be geed up about it, isn't it?"
Because he is trying to influence a positive decision from wavering Democrats by showing them that there is widespread support for reform.
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49. At 2:17pm on 20 Mar 2010, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #47
Ref 31 - MagicKirin
I think if I was your representative I 'd ignore you too.
____________
That is the attitude that give congress such a low approval rating. Markey boasts that he answers his constiuents but in my expereince and friends of mine he does not.
When living in CT, I did get responses.
-----------------------------
------------------------------
They all say that and they all don't. What sort of fool would think they could.
How Many times did you try.
I suspect your answer will condemn you either way. Either you tried too much or didn't at all.
I wrote many letters to GW saying what a total idiot I thought he was. But strangely recieved no replies.
It was a conspiracy.
Like you I was targeted for being insane and ignored. Welcome to the fold.
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Here is a link to the latest news on the President;s visit to the House of Representatives:
http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Democrats-Say-They-Are-24-Hours-Away-from-Passing-Historic-Health-Care-Reform-88738307.html
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89. At 10:34pm on 20 Mar 2010, amaryr wrote:
"You are not alone being tired of the incivility and rude exchanges"
You're not the first to note the main perpetrators (over many, many months) and you won't be the last.
What has changed recently is the willingness of some to openly hint they would happily resort to arms.
(The squirrels have noted this development and have contracted for a supply of kevlar. They are negotiating with American Apparel: they wouldn't normally deal with a US company, but they thought one that advertises 'vertical manufacturing' should be able to come up with protective bullet-proof clothing from tuft to tail easily*. And it may give employment to 'illegal aliens' with whom they sympathise, of course. As long as they aren't grey.)
*I think they've taken the slogan too literally myself, but they got all enthusiastic and said I was just being Americo-sceptic.
.
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I had thought that there really wasn't anything sillier the US media could publish surrounding this bill than it already has one way an another.
But now, the New York Times consults a numerologist.
It seems the Chaldeans knew a thing or two when they fiddled with their figures: this bill will 'leave a lasting legacy" as will Obama (type of legacy unspecified). I'll just quote a little of what this arcane ancient science tells us that we simply would never have known otherwise, not even from reading tealeaves:
"The numbers for both bills in combination indicate they will leave a lasting legacy on family, health and money if passed.
"These bills create emotional drama and will affect Americans in a powerful way. If passed, the effects — positive and negative — will manifest quickly for both members of Congress and Americans.
"There will be emotional egos on the line with the passage of this bill. The endings symbolism indicates that representatives know some of them will lose their seat as a result of their vote."
Wow! I'd never have guessed! (Gawd give me stengf.)
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The mods' procrastination is stealing my life, I don't know about anyone else's. I'm off to bed.
(Perchance to dream of a nice hospital bed with crisp sheets, OK food, a telly, books from the hospital library and stuff like that. All free.
Just as long as the first part of that stays a dream for the time being, of course. I'm not due for the reality again for a few months yet. But at least I know the last bit will still be real when I wake up.)
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squirrelist (#86) "It's Congeressmen and Senators who need to be geed up about it, isn't it?"
I just listened to an excerpt (on CNN) from the President's address to the House Democratic Caucus, and I think he did a fine job "geeing up" his audience.
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squirrelist (#97), to be precise, it was David Herzenhorn, writing for The New York Times, who consulted the numerologist.
Have you considered the possibility that he wrote this tongue-in-cheek, to make a joke out of the fact that it's so complicated that nobody really understands the numbers anyway?
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100. At 04:10am on 21 Mar 2010, GH1618 wrote:
"Have you considered the possibility that he wrote this tongue-in-cheek"
Yes.
(But it's not much of a joke and even less of a satire, or if it really is either it's pretty leaden, and it's not April 1st either, so I dismissed it.)
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103 Oh? Did it now?
(It's been a while.)
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Think I'll just go back to sleep.
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Let's see if we can make it three in a row. Night-night.
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