Trying to work the old magic
President Obama has made a passionate, personal appeal to House Democrats. We all expect they will meet and vote on health care on Sunday, although there has been no official announcement as I write.
He used the word "tough" half a dozen times at least in the speech. It was the most personal speech I have heard him make since I came here last summer and I imagine will remind many of the election campaign. He told congressmen and women in the House of Representatives:
"I didn't think of myself as a potential politician when I got out of college. I went to work in neighbourhoods, working with Catholic churches in poor neighborhoods in Chicago, trying to figure out how people could get a little bit of help. And I was sceptical about politics and politicians, just like a lot of Americans are sceptical about politics and politicians are right now. Because my working assumption was when push comes to shove, all too often folks in elected office, they're looking for themselves and not looking out for the folks who put them there; that there are too many compromises; that the special interests have too much power; they just got too much clout; there's too much big money washing around."
I am just reading "Game Change", the recent book on the presidential election, and it stresses how much Obama missed his family while on the campaign trail and the strains that being a politician took on that part of his life. The authors report that his staff knew he was going to run when he missed an important event for his daughter to go to a fund raiser. So, perhaps this was from the heart:
"A lot of us have been here a while and everybody here has taken their lumps and their bruises. And it turns out people have had to make compromises, and you've been away from families for a long time and you've missed special events for your kids sometimes. And maybe there have been times where you asked yourself, why did I ever get involved in politics in the first place?"
He answers his own question: "This is one of those moments. This is one of those times where you can honestly say to yourself, doggone it, this is exactly why I came here. This is why I got into politics. This is why I got into public service. This is why I've made those sacrifices. Because I believe so deeply in this country and I believe so deeply in this democracy and I'm willing to stand up even when it's hard, even when it's tough."
I am not sure any last votes will turn on this. I don't believe there will be a vote unless the Democratic leaders think it is in the bag. But Obama is trying to work the old magic, the ability to connect, that made him think he could be president in the first place.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~22~RS~)
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"they're looking for themselves and not looking out for the folks who put them there; that there are too many compromises; that the special interests have too much power; they just got too much clout; there's too much big money washing around"
I guess he did read the bill after all.
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Good job BBC, posting the video of the entire address!
I'm looking forward to Mr. Mardell's report of tomorrows action.
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There's a term for selective quoting in order to distort the meaning of the original speaker's words (as in post #1): Dowdlerize (after Maureen Dowd).
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Obama gave his "Sunday Sermon" like a televangelist working the crowd and looking to make that money roll in! This is "Jimmy Stewart" stuff, straight hocum the kind of sentimental schlock that nowadays Hollywood only gives to Tony Soprano.
"Do it for the people" should read "do it TO the people!" We have had nothing but bad legislation from that pack of Democrats for years....the same people who allowed the oil prices to rise uncontrolled, the same people who allowed the mortgage crisis, men and women whose hands are red with the blood of our soldiers who JUMPED at the chance to go to war because they were afraid to oppose it...they are all virgins again! Now, they can feel good about imposing mandatory burdensome taxes on the public, imposing health insurance that will destroy the economy, bankrupt families, take the bread of children's plates. Now they will have YEARS of subsequent legislation that will allow them to reach deeper and deeper into Americans' pockets, extend government into every phase of American life...destroy state's rights, and create a more and more massive federal power structure in which these elite will thrive with their assigned private jets, their health clubs, their privileges!
Stop reading the propaganda, Mark! Wipe your eyes, you have some of Obama's SOAP in them!
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csgators, it's YOU who need to read the bloody bill!!! Go do it before posting unsubstantiated statements in this eminent forum...please!!!
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And in the meantime there was a demo. (Two, actually; five arrested in the small--'hundreds' of demonstrators--anti-war one. One, soon released, in the one that got more attention.)
I see I'll have to copy US media coyness just to be on the safe side; in the other one, two Congressmen were called 'the N word' another a word beginning in f and ending in t. (If that's what people actually shouted and you're reporting them because they're offensive, why can't you spell the words out?)
So I thought I'd look around for some of the posters the Tea Partiers have been waving about:
"If Brown can't stop it, a Browning can!"
"Marxism is an [Name of President]-Nation"
"Undocumented worker" [+Pic of Obama]
"Impeach Obama" [Pic with Hitler moustache; some home-made, many mass-produced]
"No Voodoo Medicine" [Effigy of Obama]
"The Tyrannical [play on 'Obama' the profanity filter rejected]
"Bury Obama like he buried his birth certificate"
"Obama Bin Lyin' Agin"
"No to Socialism's Health Care We need Freedom not Facism[sic]!!
(It seems to have become impossible to get it across to some that the two are simply not compatible.)
And "The Lizards Don't Really Want to Help Us" (? Bit puzzled by that one; the idiom is lost on me. . .)
I seem to recognise most of these, somehow, from posters on this blog. (Except the lizard thing.) Of course, I'm sure there were many that said "Please do not vote for this health bill" or "I object to this bill" . . .but there's an awful lot of hate around by the look of it. And once those fires get going, they are very difficult to douse, it seems to me.
"I heard people saying things that I have not heard since March 15, 1960 when I was marching to try and get off the back of the bus." [Rep. James Clyburn]
"Obama is trying to work the old magic" Mark wrote. I can't help thinking that over the next two years he'll need a crash course at Hogwarts and a lot of private tuition from Professor Dumbledore to get that to work on some people.
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Trying to get [6] past the so-called 'profanity filter' became a ridiculous process. As readers will see. I don't know whose tender sensibilities that thing is supposed to protect unless it's a Victorian maiden aunt who swoons at the sight of the undraped 'limbs' of a piano.
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Or does the profanity filter go into overdrive because it's Sunday? Wish I'd slept in.
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7. squirrelist:
It wasn't so long ago that people took to the streets here with effigies of Bush. (Bitter calls for his impeachment and a trial in the Hague are still heard today.)
They were called "unAmerican" and accused of not supporting our troops. Lots of people posted pictures of their inane comments on the internet and ridiculed them, too. Now protesters are called "racists" and accused of not caring whether people die.
Like Bush, Obama believes he's doing the right thing and ignores the protests of Americans who don't. Like Bush supporters, Obama's supporters believe he's right, too. And like Bush, Obama will be judged by Americans.
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Doing what is popular to score political points and improve re-election chances is easy, what takes courage and what is a true measure of our character is to do what we believe is right regardless of how unpopular our work is.
President Obama and the Democratic leadership chose to pursue a change in direction that is, clearly, unacceptable to many Americans, and in so doing they are putting their political careers in jeopardy. They did it because they are convinced that healthcare reform is not only the right thing to do morally, but because it is the only option we have to control the rising cost of medical care in the USA and a way to reduce the financial burden that employer-provided healthcare insurance represents for corporate America. They hope that the latter will make our companies more competitive, will make our corporations more profitable and encourage hiring.
Hopefully some of the benefits of healthcare reform will become apparent in the very near future, not only to save the jobs of those who had the courage to vote for reform, but to restore a climate of civility where there is currently none.
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Ref 6, squirrelist
"...but there's an awful lot of hate around by the look of it. And once those fires get going, they are very difficult to douse, it seems to me."
There is, and I doubt it is influenced by the potential demise of the pre-existing condition clause, the elimination of caps and co-pays or making healthcare available to all children.
Yes, there is an element of racism and overt hatred in the protests we see, but I don't believe that is the main reason for the well coordinated opposition to reform. This is a well crafted political campaign designed to discredit the Democratic party, destroy President Obama's agenda, and regain control of Congress and the White House.
Regardless of whether or not healthcare reform passes, the future of the Democratic party and their abilty to stay in power depends strictly on what they do the next 5 or 6 months. If they focus strictly on the economy, job creation, education, and financial regulation, and they succeed in those areas, I believe they may be able to minimize their losses in November. Otherwise, we will be dealing with the same folks that contributed to the mess we are in today...although I believe the calamity we are in began long before Bush was elected and is the result of opportunistic, cowardly, greedy and inept policies by both Republican and Democratic administrations.
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Ref 9, Andrea
"It wasn't so long ago that people took to the streets here with effigies of Bush."
Andrea, I don't know how things were in NYC a few years ago, but when John Kerry ran for President several Democratic friends and I decided not to put signs on our lawn or our cars because we were afraid our properties were going to be vandalized. Even the slightest hint of dissent or opposition to Bush's policies was considered tantamount to high treason.
Bush's demise occurred during the last two years of his administration when evidence, and plain common sense, revealed the deceit, inhumanity and ineptness of his policies and actions. That conclusion influenced the opinion and the decision of not only Democrats, but most Independents and a few Republican moderates to vote for Barack Obama and for moderate Democratic candidates running for Congress.
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The Democrats know that this law will be unworkable and will lead to greater and greater government takeover of healthcare, a MASSIVE part of the economy. They will do pass this horrid legislation NOT for the good of the people but because it is a stepping stone to their proposed takeover of the energy sector. Once they get VILE practices like budget reconciliation accepted for this clearly non-budgetary legislation accepted they can tear up procedural rules.
Do you really think they would risk their careers for the sake of the people? They are doing it because they know that if they are shoved out of office they will find safe positions guaranteed for them in the new government administration of health care! Golden parachutes await them all!
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10. SaintDominick:
"Doing what is popular to score political points and improve re-election chances is easy, what takes courage and what is a true measure of our character is to do what we believe is right regardless of how unpopular our work is."
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If only I had a dollar every time someone said this about Bush. And they did say it. Over and over again. Just on different blogs.
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Andrea NY write:
"like Bush, Obama will be judged by Americans."
And those are the only people who matter.
Not anybody else.
Particularly come November.
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Ref 13, Shivering
"They are doing it because they know that if they are shoved out of office they will find safe positions guaranteed for them in the new government administration of health care!"
Do you honestly believe a Republican administration and a Republican-controlled Congress will offer jobs to ousted Democrats to administer healthcare? A one-way ticket to Mars is a more likely probability...
I have a relative, a lawyer, that was a political appointee in the Bush Administration. He now owns a lobbying firm and is doing quite well. Most ousted democrats will do likewise or will try to find jobs in the private sector, as they have in the past.
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12. SaintDominick:
Ref 9, Andrea
"It wasn't so long ago that people took to the streets here with effigies of Bush."
Andrea, I don't know how things were in NYC a few years ago, but when John Kerry ran for President several Democratic friends and I decided not to put signs on our lawn or our cars because we were afraid our properties were going to be vandalized. Even the slightest hint of dissent or opposition to Bush's policies was considered tantamount to high treason.
Bush's demise occurred during the last two years of his administration when evidence, and plain common sense, revealed the deceit, inhumanity and ineptness of his policies and actions. That conclusion influenced the opinion and the decision of not only Democrats, but most Independents and a few Republican moderates to vote for Barack Obama and for moderate Democratic candidates running for Congress.
************
I, too, didn't put a Bush sign on my lawn for fear of being vandalized. The hatred of him was there in full force. People actually whispered their support of him. They were surprised to find likeminded supporters of him and got used to keeping their feelings to themselves.
The parallels are all there.
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Ref 16, Andrea
"If only I had a dollar every time someone said this about Bush. And they did say it. Over and over again. Just on different blogs."
The difference is that Bush had the support of most Americans when he decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, when he transformed the Guantanamo Naval Base into a concentration camp, when he put in place the "Patriots" Act, and other such policies.
In fact, he even enjoyed the support of quite a few duplicitous Democrats who now wash their hands and pretend they had nothing to do with what took place.
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Work the old magic?
Well from Squirrelist's remarks it would appear he has already turned the tea dregs into whiners. Now can he make the elephant in the room disappear completely, and escape like Houdini from the healthcare box he has locked himself into?.
I think we have to admire the man for trying on both the home and international front.
Apart from the health care business on this thread, I read his negotiations with Russia concerning nuclear arms reduction progress well. He again holds out the olive branch to Iran to reconsider dialogue about disagreements, and together with Hillary is questioning Israel's present stance, hopefully with a view to overcoming the Middle East confrontations, matters that worry us all.
Like it or not America will always lead the world, and Obama appears to be getting stuck in, attempting to sort out a lot of the problems either ignored or instigated by earlier Presidents, and our own leaders.
But the proof of the pudding is also dependent upon other home-front problems that again rub off on the rest of us. Economy, banks, environment, unemployment to name but a few. Will he be recognized as the Merlin of the 21st century, or become a one trick disappointment?
"Just like that" might have worked for Tommy Cooper but that was yesterday.
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Ref 17, Andrea
"I, too, didn't put a Bush sign on my lawn for fear of being vandalized. The hatred of him was there in full force."
Consider moving to friendlier territory. In Florida, there were more signs supporting Bush than weeds and, believe this frustrated gardener, in this state that is quite an accomplishment!
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To all those who keep saying that we should not mess with 17% of the economy. Why can't you ask yourself the obvious question? WHY does our health care system cost so much? Why can other developed nations do this for nearly half as much as us? And for all the money we spend, why do we not have the best health care record on the planet? Why do so many people have to worry about health care costs...even those with "adequate" insurance?
The bureaucratic costs of American health care are nearly 20% on every dollar we spend. My understanding is that France and the UK are less than a third of this.
If we don't do something soon health will bankrupt the country. It's spiraling out of control and becoming too expensive even for many middle class people. My own firm (A multinational) recently reduced our health care benefits (under the guise of too many employees are over-insured and potentially losing money) to save costs. In my position, with access to financial records I can tell you that health costs are still high on the agenda.
Free market? I get a heavy subsidy through work; where am I going to go to get a better package that has a similar subsidy? it's a myth that private health care in the US is competitive. Sure, on paper there is choice, but the reality is an expensive, bureaucratic minefield which offers little real choice. In this respect no different to "socialist" countries where you get the government option only. And I've lived in a few of these thanks to work.....and the health care is generally very good,far less confusing, and not excessively expensive.
Wake up America...this is just one example of where we're heading to a cliff at full speed. Doing will be far worse than changing the direction it's heading for at the moment.
By the way, no system is perfect, but many are fairer. Some areas of the US system are superior, some are worse (far worse!). But if we don't reign in the expense, at this rate my kids won't be able to afford a band aid!
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A good, solid, Democratic Bill would not need a passionate, personal appeal to House Democrats.
A good, solid, Democratic Bill would not need to be sold at all.
I too noticed the use of the word "tough" but I was unsure where to place the adjective:
- tough legisltation
- tough Obama working hard
- tough job to sell the thing
- tough speech…
So do you like "Game Change"?
The 2008 race was the race of a lifetime; so many people pegged their future hope to Obamamania, never thinking to put the emphasis on “mania”.
"Game Change" is gossipy. E.g. "Privately" said by Sen. Harry Reid: “encouragement of Obama was unequivocal. He was wowed by Obama's oratorical gifts and believed that the country was ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as Obama - a ‘light-skinned’ African American ‘with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one.’
Game Change quickly became a sensation. This was somewhat due to the Harry Reid “light-skinned, no Negro dialect” comment.
I didn’t know “Black Jesus” went all the way back to 2006.
But the quotations that grabbed me most was from Hilary Clinton:
In reaction to the presidential debate at Drexel University, October 2007, Hilary Clinton remarked:
“What an as..hole. Am I the only one who sees the arrogance? Does that not bother people?”
Yes, Hilary I have noticed, and yes, it seriously bothers me.
About Obama himself the book is really rather calm, nothing earth-shattering. The book gains its “juice” from everybody around Obama.
Somewhere about halfway through Game Change, it struck me these people, these politicians don’t care much for us voters, except of course for our "vote" itself.
The real “game change” will come when Americans wake up, take a good hard look at their politicians & their policies, and begin to make more enlightened choices.
This cannot happen until we get a real democracy vs. plutocracy. The best minds can't be rising to the top while money holds them back.
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On the NY Times is an oped, "Could Obama be Invincible?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/opinion/20blow.html?src=me&ref=general
" If I were a Republican strategist (God forbid!), I would actually be very worried that the lower 50s/upper 40s could be Obama’s bottom. He has weathered some of the worst months of his young presidency recently, and his numbers have barely budged."
skip
"For instance, a Pew Research Center poll released on Thursday found that despite Obama’s 46 percent approval rating, 61 percent of Americans still say that he is inspiring. Furthermore, 57 percent describe him as decisive, 54 percent say that he still makes them feel hopeful and 49 percent said that he still makes them feel proud. Only about a third would describe him in negative terms like arrogant and detached, or would say that he makes them feel angry."
Also on the NY Times there is a time line of the attempts within America to have universal health insurance...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/07/19/us/politics/20090717_HEALTH_TIMELINE.html?hp
starting with Teddy Roosevelt.
Repeatedly imo the American Medical Association, AMA... has held back this natural progression to health care for all by demonizing attempts and calling it "socialized medicine."
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From a previous blog...
#35 Amaryr
Thank you for telling me about your struggle also with the health care system and a terrible disease. My husband's insurance is through a private university.. and they have an office to help me fight any battles with the insurance company...We bought the most expensive health care plan available
#37 SaintDominick
You are a very kind person. I could always tell that by your posts. We need so many more people like you in the world
#46 carolina lady #49 Philly-Mom
Thank you both for your kind thoughts
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Ref 17, Andrea
"People actually whispered their support of him."
Did the whispering take place when New Yorkers elected Giuliani and Bloomberg, or when crowds of adoring supporters welcomed W every time he visited NYC? Should we assume those crowds were brought in from the Carolinas, Tennessee or the Deep South?
I was born in Brooklyn, and even though I have not lived there since childhood I believe New Yorkers have a peculiar way of showing their emotions...but I didn't realize they lived in fear of showing their support for Bush and had to whisper it in the privacy of their homes to avoid retaliation!
I'll say it again, consider retiring in the South, the weather is generally very good, cost of living is relatively low, and the political climate is bound to be more to your liking.
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ref #23
I'd take any editorial from NYT with a huge grain of salt. there bias and love affair with Obama is very apparent.
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This is the quality of people we are looking at in this debate over health care...
In case you missed the mocking of a victim of Parkinsons' by the tea party group on You Tube here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ik4f1dRbP8
And this was the man who was mocked in his own words
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfvnNzgQy7Q
" He is 60 years old and was first diagnosed with Parkinsons 15 years ago. He has two masters degrees and a Ph.D. from Cornell. He taught at the University of Michigan and worked as a nuclear engineer."
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If Obama is able to get this health care bill passed he will next take on the financial giants...and there is very little public support for them among average Americans.
I think the health care bill will pass and we are looking at an historic moment in American history.
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Ref 24 - bepa
You and your husband have been in my thoughts a lot since we last 'spoke' on the blog.
I am pleased you are able to take time out to write at what is such a difficult time for you. The internet gets derided sometimes as a 'cold' medium' - not 'real' friendship, which in itself is odd because old-fashioned pen-friendships were highly though of - but it is nontheless human contact, which, if positive and kind, MUST be good. So be assured there are many thinking of you and wishing you well.
I hope you get all the support and information you need from the university office you mention, and that all goes as smoothly as it should. BEST of luck! (That is not meant in any sarcastic way - I really mean it. Hard to imply true meaning in this medium sometimes!)
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Ref 23, bepa
"Repeatedly imo the American Medical Association, AMA... has held back this natural progression to health care for all by demonizing attempts and calling it "socialized medicine."
In all fairness, the AMA and even the pharmaceuticals have been fairly quiet this time, with some even endorsing the proposed reform. Most of the opposition has come from the middleman - the insurance industry - which not only contributes nothing to the process but introduces exclusionary policies and adds cost to an already out of control system.
I suspect the reason for the apparent AMA ambivalence is because President Obama's plan is very different to the socialized medical care in some European countries and does, in fact, use regulated insurance companies to administer it. The latter is, apparently, not clearly understood by some of the people that voice opposition to reform, or they understand it but choose to ignore to make a point.
Ref 22. Yes, some of the tactics used by the opposition have been despicable. I expected conservatives to fight healthcare reform tooth and nail, but I never thought they would go down as low as they have.
Ref 28. Don't bet on it. Thed same Republicans that clamored for financial reform a few months ago will fight President Obama and the Democrats every step of the way as they try to regulate that sector of our economy. The attack, I suspect, will be focused on Reaganesque condemnations of regulatory practices and demonization of government. Wouldn't it be funny if ENRON, AIG, and all the financial giants that contributed the most to the economic malaise we are in are suddently transformed into innocent victims fighting for survival against attempts by inexperienced Democrats trying to tell them how to run their business and what is legal and what is not?
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Ref 6 - squirrelist
Appalling that apparently sane and normal folk can be so callously numb that they can stand unworriedly in public pronouncing such hateful things. I'm sure most of them have concerns that are perfectly valid and need discussing, but that validity is wiped out by such basically disgraceful behaviour.
Trouble is, it has become a norm. It's hardly noticed, or at least, simply accepted as what goes on at demos, which makes it even worse - the lowest common denominator has become almost acceptable. I wonder if they all meet up with their paint-pots and cardboard beforehand and think - Now what is the most disgusting thing I can say about Bush/Kennedy/Obama/abortion staff? And who has the gall to walk into your local neighbourhood printer with the text and say OK, give me a hundred posters in dripping red ink with the following hate-speak.
Ref 26 - MagicKirin
You are right to add a pinch of salt to editorials from wherever they come, and then to use intelligence to come to a balanced argument that has benefit for the majority. By the way, I have always liked your posting 'handle' or name. Does it have a history?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The bill will pass.
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I think that the health care bill will be passed by one deciding vote. President Obama will have his day and all the Democrats will celebrate late into the night. It will be a historic night for the USA.
There will be an upcoming legal battle over the mandate, which is considered unconstitutional by many, even though these same people support health care reform. However, the majority of the bill's effects, including the mandate, will not take place until 2014, so for another four years people will still not have health insurance. In 2014, we may or may not have a Democratic President and/or a Republican Congress- there is no telling who could potentially change or alter the laws. Let's just say, even if this bill passes, nothing is set in stone.
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Re: 6, squirrelist wrote "And "The Lizards Don't Really Want to Help Us" (? Bit puzzled by that one; the idiom is lost on me. . .)"
The reference could be a pop-culture to the TV movie/series "V" in which extraterrestrial lizards come to Earth, supposedly to help humanity by curing diseases, etc, but actually to harvest humans as a food source. Initially, the lizards disguise themselves as humanoids.
Or, it could be a reference to the belief by some believers in UFOs and government has been take over by "Reptiloids", who seek to manipulate humanity for their own ends, and who have infiltrated all the world's governments. This is, apparently, the 10th most popular conspiracy theory in the USA... which, perhaps, explains an awful lot.
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31 which store does not say "get out you racist bas"
;)
BePa.
I am sure that you did not recieve well meaning messages from all . Some were detained at his majesties pleasure.
Good luck to your husbandand to you as the care giver.
I to think the bill will pass. Not a moment to soon either.
I debated "common sence" the other day with someone. They seemed to think that education helped.
I laughed.
There are some pretty well educated folk that would throw the baby out with the bath water.
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14. At 12:23pm on 21 Mar 2010, AndreaNY wrote:
10. SaintDominick:
"Doing what is popular to score political points and improve re-election chances is easy, what takes courage and what is a true measure of our character is to do what we believe is right regardless of how unpopular our work is."
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If only I had a dollar every time someone said this about Bush. And they did say it. Over and over again. Just on different blogs.
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There's a big difference between doing the right thing to benefit all the people of your country and not damage other countries and starting a war on personal conviction ,dragging the economy down , the debt up and creating no new friends but a lot of enemies.
You really never get it do you.
The critisism of GW was muted compared to what we have heard of Obama. At least the dems waited till GW had made a cock up of all he touched before they started in.
This is the problem. people like you who cannot see truth if it hit you in the head with a multitrillion war budget.
(sorry forgot budget)
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Post 6 yes and there are more raciual jokes and comments that are said by tea leafs.
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To the people calling Obama Hitler, Shame on you! Not all the Tea Partiers are like that, but the ones that are make the others look bad.
I never liked George Bush, but through it all, I still respected our Presidency just the same. Tea Partiers don't have to like Obama, but at least treat the Presidency with respect. The President is the highest position in America, whether white or black, Dem or Repub, female or male, whatever. The point is, it's the President.
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9 andreany. I think the threat of violence is more pronounced in these anti-Obama screamings. The anti-GWB rhetoric came after unjustified war, and he proved to be a little pro-rich, 'let the little guys get a trickle down' (nothing ever did trickle down), kind of guy. Plus there had been impeachment resolutions filed against GWB in Congress - I think Kucinich had 35 articles filed which were referred to committee...where they sat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_George_W._Bush
Personally, I think the violent emotion is in many cases tied to race (around my neck of the woods people are pretty open about it - they really don't like a man of Obama's color being their leader - and they use nasty words freely with no shame about it, I don't think they see anything wrong with calling people a 'n.....r' with a sneer as they sit at the bar.)
Here's a dramaclip of 'Freedomworks' organizing the tea party protests
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km7WD8wkb1c
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Heh Heh...did you ever see this analysis - it's a little in-depth and lengthy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYZDDSTsomE&NR=1
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Ref 26 - MagicKirin
You are right to add a pinch of salt to editorials from wherever they come, and then to use intelligence to come to a balanced argument that has benefit for the majority. By the way, I have always liked your posting 'handle' or name. Does it have a history?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The bill will pass.
__________
In answer to the tag, major science fiction and fantasy fan.
The bill will pass I agree; I am unsure if it does pass counsitutional muster.
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ref #37
I don't know where you live. But in Mass playing the race card is a longtiome Democratic tatic. It is done on the local leval where a state rep was caught on camera stuffing a bribe in her bra and her supporters claimed racism.
Obama is being criticized because he is promoting an agenda many ofus don't like both domesticly and internationally.
Dissent is the highest form of Patriosm. Or only Democrats and war protests allowed to claim that?
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#40 - criticism and debate of policy is fine - just pointing out this depth of emotion and violent threats don't generally accompany regulatory policy debate in the US in this century. Are you saying people of color are only in the democratic party - so they're the only ones who play race cards? That's like, an ipso facto winning race card.
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Re post 38,frayedcat,
Many a true word spoken in jest,that was very funny...
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40 Come On. the Republicans and teaparty folk always play the race card. They find the one black guy in the room and say "hey we are a multi racial party" And they are.They hate all races.
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Sorry shouldn't include ALL republicans there are some that are not racists.
It's just they seem to be in hiding.
Colin Powel was one. Not anymore. WHY because of the racism on the campaign trail from the right.
Those on the left did not say kill Bush. they said "Impeach that Bush"
there is a big difference. Not that most of the "right" posters here would notice.
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ref #41 frayedcat wrote:
#40 - criticism and debate of policy is fine - just pointing out this depth of emotion and violent threats don't generally accompany regulatory policy debate in the US in this century. Are you saying people of color are only in the democratic party - so they're the only ones who play race cards? That's like, an ipso facto winning race card.
____________
I am responding to the comment that the criticsm of Obama is primarily race based. It's not it's policy based.
But there are many examples of liberal African Americans using the race card in response to legtimate criticism
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I'm reading Game Change as well. It's entertaining, but lightweight, and it's written in a breezy style that sometimes goes over the top. It's also notable for its sloppy use of language. The authors love the word "comprise," and always (so far) use it incorrectly. They use a term like "Hobson's Choice" without having a clue what it means. Still a good read, though.
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It didn't take Jack long to get back to his usual race-baiting, did it?
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The results of this health care decision will be horrible.
http://www.communislam.com/health-care-266
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Hush, hush,
Whisper my dears,
For in New York City
There's only one ditty:
"Voting for Bush
Will just end in tears."
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There were perhaps a thousand people demonstrating at the Capitol. By the standards of political protests in Washington, D. C., this is inconsequential.
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John T Gon wrote:
The results of this health care decision will be horrible.
Don't believe all this clap trap and do a bit more research please. To get people on the right in this country jumping up and down shouting and screaming, just mention the words communism or socialism. They equate them to mean the same when they are not. Remember, our "socialist" friends can afford a government mandated healthcare system simply because these countries ARE capitalist. They simply choose to spend their wealth differently.
As I said in a previous post...no system is perfect. It's easy to find a fault in another and use it to proclaim how good we are. Yet nobody in Europe goes bankrupt for the want of medical care. And if you live overseas for a while you'll see how our healthcare system is portrayed. It would probably put you off our system if you accepted the way the USA is represented without doing more research. I can tell you, very few people who live in countries with a public healthcare scheme want what we have!
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GH1618
I don't see any race baiting here.
I do see some saying race is an issue.
And some others saying it is no issue.
I presume you think it is no issue.That there are not very large racialy bias wings in the GOP and the tea party.
( I would agree there are also probably some non whites that tend to racism).
Sure it is not the focus of the comments by many today.
That would give the game away.
Maybe the racists use the blindness of others to rile them up using terms they do not recognise immediately as racist.
I objected to the use of "camel-phile" my self. I see it as no different than "sand n."
or "camel jock"
So enlighten us as to which of the posters that said race was an issue you are calling a Jack.
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51 And no one in Europe has to be told. Sorry your buisness is dangerous enough we cannot lend to someone who may get injured at work and find their insurance does not cover that part.
From that site (what a corker)linked by t Gon
"Then I broke my Humerus bone. Again, health care was provided for me. In the first instance, the Catholic Church flipped the bill, because it was a Catholic hospital. When I broke my arm, I had to pay some, but my doctor not only discounted the cost, but then discounted the final bill as well."
So that person relies on others paying their way.
How responsible
"Emergency rooms cannot turn people away. We are finding ways to give people health care. Yes, it is hard, but people are being provided for, no matter what the Democrats are trying to scare you into thinking."
Not smart to wait until people are actually in the process of not living anymore to help.
" Hey we said stuff you .So here's some Morphine for the pain."
." How many people do you know personally that have been refused health care? No really, it’s a good question. Do you know anyone?"
YES ME. What a joke.
Then I have no insurance so why would I bother going again to the hospital once I had my one bit of fun to test the system.
No worries
"When the government takes over, you can kiss charity good-bye. "
LOL OXFAM. http://www.oxfam.org/
THE RED CROSS http://www.icrc.org/
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/List_all_of_the_british_charities
So here are some of the Charities that do not exist in the UK.
Acorns Children's Hospice Trust
Action Cancer
Action for Peoples in Conflict
Age Concern
Age Concern Lancashire
Age Concern Milton Keynes
Age Concern Northern Ireland
Age Concern Suffolk
Age Concern York
Alzheimer's Society
Animals in Distress
Ardgowan Hospice
Arthritis Research Campaign
Arthur Rank Hospice
ASBAH
Aston-Mansfield
Barnardo's
Barnsley (St Peter's) Hospice
Beacon Centre for the Blind
Bethany Christian Trust
Birmingham Settlement
Blythswood Trading
Brainwave
Break
British Heart Foundation
British Red Cross
Butterwick Hospice Retail
Cancer Research UK
Cancer Research Wales
Capability Scotland
Central & Cecil Housing Trust
Chest, Heart & Stroke Scotland
Childline Scotland
Children's Hospice Association Scotland
Children's Hospice South West
Claire House Shops Ltd.
CLIC
Compton Hospice
Cosgrove Care
Cotswold Care Hospice Shops
Devon Air Ambulance Trust
DebRA
Demelza House Trading Ltd.
Derian House Children's Hospice
Dogs Trust
Dorothy Kerin Trust (Burrswood)
Douglas Macmillan Hospice Shops
East Anglia Children's Hospices
Eden Valley Hospice
Ellenor Hospice
Enable Ireland
Essex Air Ambulance
Exeter Leukaemia Fund
FARA Foundation
Farleigh Hospice
Force Cancer Charity
give2give
Greenwich & Bexley Cottage Hospice
Guild Care
Hamelin House
Harpenden Mencap
Harris Hospiscare
Haven House Foundation
Headway - The Brain Injury Association
Helen House and Douglas House
Help The Aged
Home Farm Trust
Homeaid Caithness
Home-start Teesside
Hope House Children's Hospice
Hospice in the Weald
Hospice of St Francis
Hospiscare
Iain Rennie Hospice At Home
Katharine House Hospice, Banbury
Katharine House Hospice, Stafford
Kent Association for the Blind
Lindsey Lodge Hospice
Leonard Cheshire
Mare and Foal Sanctuary
Marie Curie Cancer Care
Martin House Children's Hospice
Martlets Hospice
Mary Stevens Hospice
Menphys
Mercy in Action
Minds Matter
Myton Hamlet Hospice
Naomi House Children's Hospice
National Association of Victim Support
National Animal Welfare Trust
National Kidney Research Fund
NCH
North Devon Hospice
Notting Hill Housing Trust
Nottinghamshire Hospice
Oxfam
Oxfam Northern Ireland
Pasque Hospice
Paul Bevan Cancer Foundation
Paul Sartori Foundation
PDSA
Peace Hospice Shops Ltd
Pilgrims Hospices in East Kent
Prospect Hospice
Queen Elizabeth's Foundation For Disabled People
Queenscourt Hospice
Relate Croydon
Richard House Children's Hospice
Roy Castle Retail Ltd.
RSPCA
Salvation Army Trading Company Ltd
Save the Children Fund
Scope
Sense
Sense Scotland
Shooting Star
Severn Hospice
Shakespeare Hospice
Shaw Trust Retail
Shelter Shops
Shooting Star
Simon Community Northern Ireland
Sobell House Hospice Charity
Spitalfields Crypt Trust
Springhill Hospice
St Andrew's Hospice
St Ann's Hospice
St Barnabas Hospice Shops
St Benedict's Hospice
St Catherine's Hospice
St Catherine's Hospice (Scarborough)
St Clare's Hospice
St David's Foundation
St Elizabeth Hospice
St Elizabeth's Centre
St Gemma's Hospice
St Giles Hospice
St Helena Hospice
St John's Hospice - the Hospice in the Heart of London
St John's Hospice and Cancer Care Shops
St John's Hospice In Wirral
St Joseph's Hospice Association
St Leonard's Hospice
St Luke's (Cheshire) Hospice
St Luke's Hospice
St Luke's Hospice, Basildon
St Luke's Hospice, Plymouth
St Luke's Kenton Grange Hospice (Harrow & Brent)
St Mary's Hospice
St Michael's Hospice
St Michael's Hospice, Hampshire
St Nicholas' Hospice
St Oswalds Hospice
St Peter & St James Hospice Shops
St Raphael's Hospice
St Richards Hospice
St Rocco's Hospice
St Teresa's Hospice
St Vincent de Paul Society, London
Sue Ryder Care
Tapping House Hospice
Teeside Hospice
Tenovus, The Cancer Charity
The Action Group
The Blue Cross
The Children's Society
The Children's Trust
The Extracare Charitable Trust
The Haven, Wolverhampton
The Martlets Hospice
The Mary Ann Evans Hospice
The Norman Laud Association
The Padley Group
The Princess Alice Hospice
The Shakespeare Hospice
The South Bucks Hospice
The Wayne Howard Trust
Thorne House Services For Autism
Traid
Treetops Hospice
Trinity Hospice
Wakefield Hospice
Wales Air Ambulance
Walsall Hospice Appeal
Watford & District Mencap
Watford New Hope Trust
West Cumbria Hospice at Home
Weston Hospicecare Mart
Wigan And Leigh Hospice
Willen Hospice
Woking Hospice
Woodlands Hospice Charitable Trust
Woodland Respite Care Centre
Yeldall Homeless Projects
YMCA England
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This bill is a joke!
I don't know whats worse the bill or the fact that Obama, Pelosi and Reid can stand in front of our nation and claim the bill is good for the nation when they have not taken any action against the trial lawyers (who fund the Democrats) and cause insurance premiums to rise, or the fact that Obama has to bribe his own party with special allowances that will offset the high cost that everyone else will have to endure!
Obama makes Jimmy Carter look like a genius!
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25. SaintDominick:
"...but I didn't realize they lived in fear of showing their support for Bush and had to whisper it in the privacy of their homes to avoid retaliation!"
************
My, you've taken it to quite the extreme! Must be the Brooklyn in you.
People just refrained from mentioning Bush because the usual response would be a rant of some kind with an assumption that you, of course, agreed with the ranter. It was always amusing to see their shock when they encountered someone who actually supported Bush. It obviously didn't happen often here in NY.
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45. MagicKirin:
"I am responding to the comment that the criticsm of Obama is primarily race based. It's not it's policy based."
*************
With Bush, the anger was policy-based, with Obama, it's race-based. See how that works?
I remember, once, when I mentioned I supported Bush, another New Yorker close by asked me whether I was a member of the religious right. I'm sure his problem was with Bush's "policies", too, and had nothing to do religion.
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0. At 11:36am on 21 Mar 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
... because they are convinced that healthcare reform is not only the right thing to do morally, but because it is the only option we have to control the rising cost of medical care in the USA and a way to reduce the financial burden that employer-provided healthcare insurance represents for corporate America."
Some official media are already mentioning health care funded by the people - yet another TAX - will not reduce the cost of health care. Did you really believe that?
The health care is not funded out of nowhere. And it doesn't look like it's going to be funded from the existing taxes.
It's not about the bill itself, public health care is one of the options, but the problem is some of may not yet notice - the way the bill is going to be implemented. US citizens will be FORCED by law to pay premiums to fund the health care system - nothing ever comes free. The big thing is that the premiums will go back to fund the banks and insurance companies!
Has anyone read the healthcare bill? Hardly many of those who are supposed to vote on that bill will be given the chance and time to do so, so how can you judge the bill? Not to mention some parts of the bill are not yet disclosed both the the congress and the public.
There are some independent media who are reporting horrific things planned in that bill you can hardly imagine. First of all what is already known is that the plans for the bill were made by the same insurance companies who are now holding the public to ransom. The way this bill is constructed will take away the freedom of anyone to have a choice.
Open your eyes to the truth people!
BBC maybe is doing a great job, but the job of reporting the truth is not done yet.
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Instead of focusing on the negative aspects of politics and the alleged intransigence of both sides of our political spectrum, shouldn't we be celebrating the fact that we live in a country where our representatives are able to cast a vote without fear of retribution? Shouldn't we be thankful to live in a country where we can express our views and propose socio-political changes without being persecuted?
Yes, many things have been said in the past - and now - that are inappropiate, but I much rather deal with caricatures and infantile claims than be in a country where a person can be shot, incarcerated, or persecuted for saying what they believe.
Regardless of the outcome of this vote, which remains up in the air, this is a historical moment for our country. If this legislation passes it will be the most dramatic social accomplishment since the establishment of MEDICARE, MEDICAID and Civil Rights in the 1960s. If it fails it will mean that most Americans are satisfied with we have, believe we can not afford anything better, or are not interested in major changes to the status quo.
Either way, it is a momentous time for us and for our country.
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Unfortunately, 'evangelistic fervor' in political speeches, in otherwords form over substance, seems to work well in America...and in typical fashion Obama makes this travesty of law and questionable Constitutional practice, emotional and all about Himself.
Unfortunately my three grandchildren and their children will have to pay for Obama's moment of 'historical' preening...meanwhile, America will get fatter and sicker, premiums will continue to rise, and the healthcare programs will have all of the efficiency of the U.S. Postal Service and the 'soul' of the IRS or Department of Motor Vehicles.
Never have so few, done so much, in such a short time, to damage so many.
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53, quite a list! Thanks for doing that. Points out how shouting louder instead of trying to find something out matters most.
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With regard to #58:
It's telling that SaintDominick groups this current health care legislation with 3 other failed Democratic contrivances: "...the most dramatic social accomplishment since the establishment of MEDICARE, MEDICAID and Civil Rights in the 1960s..." all of which punish the majority for the inabilities of the few.
Welcome to Cuba on the Potomac!
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32. At 3:01pm on 21 Mar 2010, LucyIllinois wrote:
"I think that the health care bill will be passed by one deciding vote. President Obama will have his day and all the Democrats will celebrate late into the night. It will be a historic night for the USA."
A historic event indeed for the insurance companies who cannot wait to lay their hands on the money of the people who will be forced to pay another tax by law and there is no way to opt out. How many million of US citizens will contribute to their wealth from tomorrow?
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57 scare mongerer.;)
"There are some independent media who are reporting horrific things planned in that bill you can hardly imagine. "
No kidding. So would you link these reputable publications please.
While we are at it . How do you know what we can imagine.
I can imagine a whole lot. AND I can imagine what will happen if they do not make the first if not faltering step to getting coverage to more americans.
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No worries.No worries;)
There were other lists but I decided not to press the point.
There are also schools that are private that are considered "charities".
They could take up some real space.
In the USA they count those sorts of Charities as proof of "giving". I would agree in some ways. because they are taking pupils out of the states school room and paying for them while paying taxes for ther est.
Strange how few think they should be exempt from taxes because they pay private.
On to more fertile grounds.
BK
"and Civil Rights in the 1960s..." all of which punish the majority for the inabilities of the few.
Excuse Me. DO expand on this point.
What was the punishment for those who had to "put up" with sitting next to a black person.
What was the punnishment in saying there is to be no more segregation?
Please do expand to explain.
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53. At 5:21pm on 21 Mar 2010, procrastinationstolemylife wrote:
"From that site (what a corker) linked by t Gon"
Isn't it? I liked finding out that Persia changed its name to Iran because that is Persian for 'Aryan'.
And that education isn't in the American Constitition only 'the Communist Constitution' so 'we the people can educate ourselves'. (Apparently mostly with that renowned educationalist Glenn Beck.)
Yes we can! (I've just bought "Teach Yourself Heart Transplants' from the local charity bookshop, and I'm sure John T Gon will volunteer to be my first patient. I'm only half-way through "Chapeter 1: First find your Heart", but I reckon I should be able to pick it up as we go along.)
According to the UK Charities Commission, there are 180,056 registered charities in the UK, which raise (and spend) £50bn a year.
All the same, T Gon is right. I fell last year at home and sprained my wrist very badly, so I nipped round to the local PDSA. Would they even offer me a bandage? NO THEY WOULD NOT! They wouldn't even offer me a kitten. That's what happens when you have Socialist-Communist-Fascist-Islamist universal health care like we do in Britanistan.
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60. At 6:23pm on 21 Mar 2010, No Worries wrote:
"53, quite a list! Thanks for doing that."
(Oh, we Brits can do better than that if we read any more rubbish like Tea Gone Cold's. See 65.)
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Universal health care looks like a great idea but can America afford it?
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65 Squirelist: Ha Ha Ha
The PDSA here have sold you a bandage, so we're better than your filthy, whining commo-liberal loving leftist Britanistan. I'm sure they even would have helped arrange the loan and the payment schedules.
By the way, was the reason you slipped a pre-existing condition? If so, sorry buddy, no go area!
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65 I never made it to the religious stuff. Too busy performing the Heimlich Maneuver on myself.
" there are 180,056 registered charities in the UK"
OH NO Now I have some listing to complete.
Is there any chance that there is a list already published somewhere or do I have to start typing like a kat on speed.
On the heart surgery.
I tried that book. It seemed OK that book. I decided to wait and see if connecting the veins to the arteries was really so dangerous.
Seems like they were right on that score.
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Peter Frampton. In all seriousness ,I do worry the insurance industry are being given too much leaway.
I would suggest taking control with a goverment take over.
Then we could vote on the policies of those covering us instead of just hoping that they will turn around and be nice to us.
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67
Well of course the racists can't afford it because the cost of subversive literature is so high.
The unltra rich,the billionaires and millionaires they can'r afford it because the charges by the IRS for bringing all that money in from undisclosed accounts would be astronomical.
The middle class can't afford it because they are at the moment paying twice as much to get turned down. And they all love their coverage so much they don't want to drop that for something that would cover them.
The poor. Now they cannot afford it.
But we started there, that is what is being discussed.
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68. At 6:53pm on 21 Mar 2010, No Worries wrote:
"By the way, was the reason you slipped a pre-existing condition?"
Well, the bathroom floor was a bit slippery before I fell, yes.
(Oh, I think I see what you mean. I'm lame--and no snide comments like 'Yes we can see that from the squirrelpomes' if you don't mind.)
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Peter Frampton
More in all seriousness.
Either you are the same peter Frampton the musical guy.Who is quite famous apparently. Or you are coincidentaly named with the same name.
OR you are not Peter Frampton at all and are in breach of certain rules regarding impersonating people.
Which is it?
While we have your attention.
PS I don't care if you are just impersonating someone famous to give them a bad name.
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69. At 6:54pm on 21 Mar 2010, procrastinationstolemylife wrote:
OH NO Now I have some listing to complete. Is there any chance that there is a list already published somewhere . . .
I did have a book that did, once; tell you what, if people get too annoying, and we really want to spam this blog to an early grave like some people try to do sometimes, I'll offer to do half?
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No Worries
"they even would have helped arrange the loan and the payment schedules."
They gave up taking the first kid then. There is some progress.I wonder if my pets are safe.
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69. At 6:54pm on 21 Mar 2010, procrastinationstolemylife wrote:
"Too busy performing the Heimlich Maneuver on myself."
"Hah! Knew it! Crypto-Fascist National Socialist medicine. Better learn an all-American manoeuvre fast, or just choke, pinko!"
[email from Glenn Beck]
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74 Sure I could do with a hand.I'm not very fast at typing.
As for the all american Heimlich manoeuvre I did give that a go . Apparently it only works with the star strangled banner.
I tried using my Hammer and sickle.
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77. procrastinationstolemylife:
LOL
[Coughs.] Now, now, this is no laughing matter. You don't see anybody having a giggle at these tea parties, do you? (Why do they think the cucumbers should be whole and stuffed into rolls like hot dogs, btw?)
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Having followed this debate from the get go, I have to say that I very much agree with MarcusAureliusII's post on a previous thread....this legislation should have been drafted by the White House. THe President had the mandate and the whip to get this thing done in his terms if he proceeded with care and could have avoided the fate of Clinton (same old story of the President fighting the previous war). By handing it over to a fairly mediocre and partisan Congress the President was no longer in the driving seat. THe result is a pretty disappointing piece of legislation, but one that is JUST worth passing. Aside from the moral issue, which is a fairly important one as far as I'm concerned, if this bill doesn't go through then health reform is wrecked for decades and the cost control that is so desperately needed will concomitantly vanish. This bill doesn't go very far on cost but gets the ball rolling. And to return to the moral issue, I find it staggering that so many so-called patriotic Americans have so little interest in the well being of their fellow citizens. I'm not passing judgement, I just find it strange.
Where I will pass judgement has been the response of the Republicans to all this. Whatever about the very limited competence of the Dems in congress the Republicans are a really lightweight bunch. There reactions ahve ranged from the silly ("death panels" Ms. Bachmann?) to the downright perverse (such as the long standing claim the NO reform is necessary while simultaneously bemoaning the defecit?? return to the real world please). If the Republicans were so concerned about the deficit why did they do nothing in 8 years of Presidency and 12 years of congressional majorities to address the quite clearly out of control cost of healthcare? It is surely unsurprising that the confidence in Congress is at an all time low. For one thing, it is not designed to be a hyper-partisan institution. Of course, as soon as that gets mentioned, there is an immediate procession of blowing raspberries and the inevitable "but they started it" claptrap. So to conclude, I hope that the bill passes, but it is a begrudging hope, and I would also hope that the President, and whoever gets the GOP nod for 2012, keeps this charade in the minds eye and prevent any migration of executive authority to a thoroughly underwhelming congress
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67. At 6:48pm on 21 Mar 2010, Political_Incorrect wrote:
"Universal health care looks like a great idea but can America afford it?"
Of course not, but I don't think Obama mentioned that during his election campaign, or did he? I think he kept repeating "public healthcare" so many times people started to believe it would be public, so someone else would pay.
I don't remember whether anyone asked him that question : who is going to pay for it and who is going to control where the money goes?
@procrastinationstolemylife
"I would suggest taking control with a goverment take over."
I wanted to avoid that subject as I would have been banned from this forum due to spreading conspiracy theories.
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48. At 4:41pm on 21 Mar 2010, John T Gon wrote:
"The results of this health care decision will be horrible.
http://www.communislam.com/health-care-266"
____________
Ok.
Where do they find the people who write this drivel?
Former tabloid employees?
Former Vampire genre bodice-ripper authors?
Would-be Stephen King imitators?
The Sun?
----------
Have you never traveled outside the United States?
Do you really believe that public health care systems outside the United States don't work?
Do you not realize that there is not a single major industrial country that presently has public health care in which the voters would even remotely consider going back to the dark ages of a fee-for-service system as found in the US?
Do you really not recognize that the link you have posted is caricature, whether intentional or otherwise?
There are dozens of countries that provide perfectly good public health care. It isn't that big a deal.
No jurisdiction that adopts public, single payer health care ever considers going back. The voters would never stand for it.
That's probably what the insurance industry is afraid of.
Once you adopt public health care, and see how much better it works than your current system, you will have voters campaigning for a Constitutional Amendment to make public healthcare an entrenched right.
And, if you read The Economist this week, you'll see a great big chart that shows what other major industrial nations are paying for health care. The US is at 16 % of GNP. Other major industrial countries are at about half or slightly more than half that figure.
Americans stand to save a great deal of money by moving to a public health care model. They would save a great deal more money (e.g., something like 7 % of GNP, or roughly $ 1T/ year = $ 3000+ for every man, woman, and child in the country) if America were to adopt a single payer system.
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re. 6. squirrelist:
If the Republicans hope to capitalize on the fervor of the Tea Partiers, they've forgotten what happened during the presidential campaign. As people started showing up at Palin and McCain rallies to shout "socialist," "terrorist" and "traitor", the independents and moderates started shifting towards Obama. McCain and Palin started looking not conservative but dangerous. McCain realized what was happening and tried to damp things down, but that only alienated the right wing without helping him with the moderates.
The more the Tea Party activists look like brownshirts, the worse it will be for the Republicans. The health care bill will pass and everyone will realize that democracy hasn't been subverted and the world has not come to an end. And hey, maybe they can get insurance now. If the Tea Partiers and the Republicans try to keep the fires stoked from now until November, they will increasingly look like a bunch of right wing loonies. Because there aren't that many issues that the majority of the voters care about as much as do the Tea Partiers. Banking reform? Even the populist conservatives want to see that happen. The environment? That can be framed as energy independence. This is why the Republicans wanted to start all over again with a new health care bill: they wanted to keep the pot boiling with an issue that was working for them with their base. And it's why the Democrats wanted it over and done with.
The other thing that will happen if the racist and homophobic elements in the Tea Party movement become more prominent is that it will energize black, Hispanic, and gay voters. Part of the reason why Republicans won in the recent special elections is because black voters in particular didn't turn out in the same numbers they had for the presidential election. If minorities get worried about the alliance between the Tea Party and the Republicans, it will certainly affect the outcome of the Congressional elections.
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72. Squirrel - Pre-existing condition. LOL.
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oh well Squirrelist it was fun but it seems that some think the issue to be serious.
As for cucumbers.
?
I missed that maybe they have no knives.
Wait that isn't right. I know americans are only just a litle less interested in Knives as Guns.
Peter Frampton. NO one would be banned from this forum. That sort of thing wouldn't happen here.
Shirly
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PS "NOBAMA" morphed to "NOBAMA care" before he even proposed anything.
OH WAIT. it wasn't him that proposed it. . That's right.
Madi He did also promise to try to work with the opposition and many indies liked that promise. He did. try. they refused to listen or talk.
He has done exactly as he promised.
We can not blame him for bring truthful now can we?
Adios. See U all in a later life.
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re. 67. Political_Incorrect:
Universal health care looks like a great idea but can America afford it?
This bill is a long ways away from universal health care, which is why some liberals opposed it.
But the theory of cost containment under universal health care is that once everyone is covered, you begin to provide health care in a less expensive manner: no arriving at the emergency room with no insurance but with a life-endangering condition or disease. In many states the hospitals have to take such patients, but the cost is spread across the population that does have health insurance. And medical care provided in an emergency room is very expensive health care.
If there is universal health care, the theory is that people are seen earlier by primary care physicians, so they never get to the emergency room. And you can begin to apply some other methods, like managed health care and integrated health care that can reduce cost and improve outcomes.
The intent with universal health care is to "bend the curve" and begin to slow the rise in health care costs.
So it's not so much a question of can America afford it, but can we afford not to have it.
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82. At 8:33pm on 21 Mar 2010, tim wrote:
"there aren't that many issues that the majority of the voters care about as much as do the Tea Partiers. Banking reform? Even the populist conservatives want to see that happen. The environment? That can be framed as energy independence."
The subject of today's other dem in Washington? Immigration reform? Looks the kind of thing to get the Brownshirts going.
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82 lol Tim yep.
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61. At 6:25pm on 21 Mar 2010, BK wrote:
"... 3 other failed Democratic contrivances: "... MEDICARE, MEDICAID and Civil Rights in the 1960s..." all of which punish the majority for the inabilities of the few."
"Welcome to Cuba on the Potomac!"
__________
Sure. Right. Well then,
Is it your position that a majority of Americans would now vote in favour of abolishing Medicare?
Is it your position that a majority of Americans would now vote in favour of abolishing Medicaid?
Is it your position that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 be repealed?
Is it your position that the Voting Rights Act of 1965 should be repealed?
Until I read posting 61, I had thought that the accusations of racism here were over the top. Maybe I was wrong about that. Or maybe posting 61 was not very well considered.
[Let me guess: you support voter photo ID laws - the Jim Crow laws of our time - enacted for the purpose of disenfranchising visible minorities; people with physical disabilities and mobility problems; people who do not have driver's licenses; people who are likely to have moved house recently (disproportionately students, the poor, the homeless); citizens who have difficulty understanding English, etc., etc.; all of whom are disproportionately unlikely to vote Republican.]
It's fascinating how legislation enacted to breathe life into the promise that all men be entitled to equal treatment before, and to equal benefit of, the law, is twisted to be characterized as a "punishment" of those who have the good fortune of not being disadvantaged.
Hubris and nemesis.
Perhaps some day the shoe will be on the other foot, and you may see things differently.
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madigaf (#79), it's easy to be a critic, but if this legislation gets through, President Obama will have succeeded where many others before him have failed.
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re. 87. squirrelist:
The subject of today's other dem in Washington? Immigration reform? Looks the kind of thing to get the Brownshirts going.
That just plays into the same problem. If Republicans attempt to block immigration reform, they alienate Hispanic voters. They can argue all they want about not rewarding illegal immigrants, but Hispanic voters will see hostility towards immigration reform as hostility towards anyone with a Hispanic name--citizen or not. Because it often plays out that way.
Anything that the Republicans do to energize what they see as their base will energize the base of the Democratic party as well. And if the Republicans look too cozy with extremists, they will alienate moderate independents.
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GH1618
Ultimately I do agree with you. And I think its a point worth making. Yet another reason why it is fundamentally and good thing that the bill gets passed. But that is not the same as to say that it is a good bill! But it is something that can be built upon. While the issue of coverage will not be touched for a long time, the bidgetary elements can be tweaked going forward which is extremely important. My point really is that I feel the President should have been the quarterback for this from the get go. If he had we might be faced with a better bill, that was passed more quickly and one that did not see his ratings take quite a hit. But lets get it done, learn the lessons and move on.
To make another quick point, passing this bill will take away the blanket coverage which has allowed the tea-party movement/GOP to target their fire. When the focus shifts to the economy, it will be more difficult to be the party of no. This i think is a factor which is influencing Republican thinking. To use a horrible mixed metaphoer....its more difficult to fight a batter when the goalposts have shifted!
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" Peter Frampton. NO one would be banned from this forum. That sort of thing wouldn't happen here.
Shirly"
Of course, not, I have a very high respect for the BBC. I was only joking.
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cato.org
The Truth about Health Insurance Premiums and Profits
by Alan Reynolds
"The president's health insurance proposals hoped to use stern command-and-control techniques to run the health insurance system. It was all about minimizing free choice and maximizing brute force—forcing people to buy certain kinds of politically-designed insurance, forcing insurers to cover services many consumers do not want to pay for, and forcing insurers to curb or roll back premiums even as medical costs go up. The whole shaky apparatus was built upon even shakier statistics—including the purely hypothetical 39 percent increase in premiums that Mary's insurance agent reported to Duke Helfand."
Make sure you pay for what you ask for.
From a perspective of a person who used to live in an EU (not UK) country with a public service I was forced to buy additional health care because the public service was appalling.
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ref #82
Tea Party represetatives immediatly denounced the racist and homophobic companions. I am still waiting for those peace promoters to denounce Bush and cheney are war criminals comments.
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As someone who grew up in a civilised countries, with national health-care of one sort or the other, I have watched the debate and experienced the system, since moving here three years ago.
My fiancée just had Michael Moore moment. She did all her homework – went with doctors in the insurance company’s network, paid the $2,500 deductible, etc. etc. The Doctors were wonderful – even let her go home, rather than stay in the Hospital where they would have made more money, because she would heal better.
Major operation, ±$30,000 cost, and she is now looking a bill the Insurance company is refusing to pay for $1,700.
Why? Because the assistant surgeon, wasn’t in network.
I am looking forward to ripping the heads off people at the insurance company tomorrow, and they will have to hope their policy included re-attachment.
Watching the posturing going on. Why do congressmen have to be bought? And why do the God nuts have so much power?
It’s all the power of small men. The ability to prevent things happen, rather than make them happen.
If this bill passes, it will be thanks to President Obama, since Congressmen and the Senators are just pork traders.
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It shows you what kind of trouble the Democrats are in when the President of the United States has to plead with members of his own party to vote for the only bill of substance his administration could lay exclusive claim to in over a year since he's been in office. Torn between loyalty to their party and knowledge that if they vote for it, many of them won't be back by this time next year, we'll see when push comes to shove how many of them chicken out to avoid being tarred with that brush in November. It gives new meaning to the term "loyal opposition" when it refers to members of the President's own party.
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80. Peter Frampton:
"I don't remember whether anyone asked him that question : who is going to pay for it and who is going to control where the money goes?"
****************
Few questions were asked. His promises about health care reform alone could fill a book, but then, again, no one promises like Obama.
The NYT has a piece by a former Congressional Budget Office director about the real cost of democrats' proposals.
www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html?ref=opinion
Very unsettling. But we all know this. Democrats simply don't care what it will cost. It's too important for them to worry about the costs. After all, what's money when you're making history?
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96. One Small Voice:
"Why? Because the assistant surgeon, wasn’t in network."
***************
Try complaining to the State Insurance Commissioner.
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One Small Voice
Exactly what I mean by our health care system being overly bureaucratic. You often find out what you're covered for and how much you owe after the event. In my times living in other countries with public health, the health systems were far less confusing as well as a lot cheaper. As I said in an earlier post, we spend something near to 20% of our premiums on overheads...about 3 times that of France. Although I have no direct evidence for this, I heard on NPR that gov't run programs like Medicare & Social Security cost about 3%. If that's gov't then something's wrong with private.
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#95 Yet Fox News reports:
March 21, 2010
Thousands of health care reform opponents descended on Capitol Hill Saturday to rally against Sunday’s major vote on the package. But some of the protesters targeted a handful of African American Members of Congress and one gay lawmaker as they walked from the House office buildings to the Capitol to vote. Reps. John Lewis (D-GA) and Andre Carson (D-IN), both members of the Congressional Black Caucus, say that a group of protesters hollered at them and called them the N-word.
“They were just shouting. Harassing,” Lewis said. “People being downright mean.” Lewis was one of the most pivotal figures of the civil rights struggle. He spoke alongside Dr. Martin Luther King at the Lincoln Memorial during the “I Have a Dream” speech. And Alabama State Police fractured the Congressman’s skull as he led a march across the Edmund Pettus Bridge on what became known as “Bloody Sunday” in 1965.
“It’s okay, I’ve faced this before,” said Lewis of Saturday’s incident. “I haven’t heard anything like this in 40, 45 years. Since the march to Selma, really.”
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Aw Poor Altmire is gettin protested for his no vote.
http://www.post-gazette.com/multimedia/?ClipID=4638850
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
100. No Worries:
"Although I have no direct evidence for this, I heard on NPR that gov't run programs like Medicare & Social Security cost about 3%. If that's gov't then something's wrong with private."
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I assume some of this overhead goes to eliminating fraud, at which the government is notoriously awful. We're talking tens of billions in the case of Medicare fraud.
People like to compare health care systems but they should also compare government functionality and effectiveness. Ours isn't great.
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re. 95. MagicKirin:
I am still waiting for those peace promoters to denounce Bush and cheney are war criminals comments.
That strikes me as an apples and oranges comparison. One is entitled to hold an opinion that certain actions by our elected officials are war crimes. One is not entitled to shout racial slurs and spit on political opponents.
I don't think that the majority of Tea Party activists are racist or homophobe. The problem, however, is like what happened during the campaign. Once the loonies come out of the woodwork and attach themselves to the Tea Party or the Republicans, they're like barnacles; they won't come off. And the Tea Party made themselves attractive to the loonies with the shrill screaming that went on in town hall meetings about the health care proposals. The Republicans have been happy to attach themselves to the Tea Party. They will find that it is more difficult to separate from them once things get out of control.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aor6-DkzBJ0
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My point Andrea (104) is that my private health costs me some 6 times more in bureaucratic costs than the gov't. I've virtually given up on calling my health care provider because of the contradictory information they give me depending on whomever answers the phone. Frankly, our private system is overly expensive and very inefficient. Gov't is not bad at everything, private is not better at everything.
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108
Every thing welll explained in one short paragraph.Kudos.
It seems some are determined to prove good puctuation good spelling a voice that wouldn't melt butter do not nessesarily indicate good thinking.
105
Same but I understand why it took a little longer;)Subject and sub....something.
I would say that many seem to like to allow the crazy bag contingent because they like to hear someone stiring and have no concern for the manner that it takes. I'm one for saying that the inactions are actions.
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"It shows you what kind of trouble the Democrats are in when the President of the United States has to plead"
Interesting start,as usual.
True enough.Maybe the president is still OK and the democratic party do have to worry.
Icould see that. It is the party old hacks lack of back bone and the Ice Blue Veined Democrats desire to push their religios views that have held this up for so long.But it looks like they might realise they could be voulnerable if they refuse to think.
Just because their constituants don't nessasarily think.
There's democracy for you.
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In a good Soviet style situation the house and the congress could debate all day while the president just made it work.
Now there's a system.
Or the president could listen try and build consensus and then if there is obvious disruption just for the sake of obstructionism he can use all the legal means to just encourage the situation as much as is possible.
That's kinda what he look like he is doing. But I'm going to wait on that.
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90 It certainly will.What is more the history books may also remember the pure hate that filled the debate about providing a little care for others.
If the American people do not stand behind it and continue to look like they reject it because "goverment won't work" they will only make President Obama look better in the history books. Now thats mud in the eye of those most obstructive people.
The harder they work the morre they make him look better.Go for it Obama.
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