A congressman's vote in the balance
Pennsylvania district four. At Ferri's pharmacy in Murrysville, manager Enid McClung finishes off measuring out some pills and picks up the phone to a customer. "It appears you don't have coverage," she tells him. It appears the man's lost his job and so lost his health insurance. "The prescription is rather expensive. It's $464."
Few doubt health care reform of some sort is necessary. Few I speak to here think the bill that will be voted on within the next few days is the right way forward.
The chemist's owner, Bill Ferri, has some advice for his congressman:
"Jason Altmire, you should not be for this plan. I think we do need healthcare reform but this is not the healthcare reform that we need in this country. The majority of the people, in my opinion, are against it."
It is solicited advice. Congressman Altmire has not decided how to vote. He is playing it right up to the wire, and has gone out of his way to ask his constituents in Pennsylvania district four to tell him what they think. It is a suburb of Pittsburgh with a rural feel, made up of small towns, along the line of the William Penn Highway. Mr Altmire, a health care administrator before he became a politician, won this marginal (swing, for American readers) seat with the support of Republicans and independents.
I talk to him inside the Cannon building on Capitol Hill. His office here has been inundated with thousands of letters and many telephone messages.
Several of those calls were from the White House, in what he calls "a continuing conversation" with the president. Obama even tried to ring him from Air Force One but that call didn't connect. I put it to him straight: this is about the president's authority - if it falls, he's damaged.
He says: "I am not worried about the political implications. I have the competing goals of representing my district and making sure we have good policy. And those two things should be working together. If I have a vote that my constituents aren't comfortable with, I am not going to be able to support the bill."
So is he worried about losing his seat in the November elections?
"I still have to go home to my district to look my family and friends and neighbours in the eye for the rest of my life on this important vote, and know that I did the right thing. This is not about politics."
In Dick's Diner on the William Penn Highway in Murrysville, old friends meet across the political divide. John Cicco is a Democrat, Jill Cooper a Republican. They both think this is a bad bill, driven by the need to score a victory, rather than get a good bill.
John deplores the lack of a public option (a government-run insurance scheme) but wants his congressman to vote for it. You couldn't describe him as enthusiastic though.
"It's a garbage can of different ideas, some of which may be good but aren't honed out, others that are bad ideas, and it is all being delivered at once in order for the Democratic Party, my party, to look as though it can lead."
Jill thinks this has become about the president's authority. She tells me: "He looks like someone who is trying to win for the sake of winning. Leading not listening."
In another part of the district, Oakmont, I catch up with Loretta Worsham, who's an independent voter (which has a specific meaning in America - someone who is not registered as a Democrat or Republican).
She says of healthcare: "Obviously it is a mess but I don't think having the federal government involved in it is the solution. I just fundamentally don't like the idea of government being involved in health care."
She voted for Jason Altmire two years ago. "He voted 'no' last time on it and I would hope he would do that again. I saw him as an independent thinker but if he voted for it this time I am not so sure I would vote for him again."
Mr Altmire may find he's torn between his constituents, his conscience and his president.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© 2012~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~16~RS~)
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Mark: '"I catch up with Loretta Worsham who's an independent voter (which has a specific meaning in America - someone who is not registered as a Democrat or Republican)."
Not entirely true. Yes, in one sense, it does mean that. But it can also mean an actual Indipendent party afiliation (like Republican or Democratic party afiliations,) that is given how strong a third party can grow within the current confines of the two party strangle hold on our political system. As I'm sure you know, there are Indipendent members of the Senate and House of Representatives, however small in numbers they may be. And Independents have found even more luck on the state level as everything from state legislators to governers, such as Jessy Ventura (the pro wrestler turned politician) in Minnesota. So, if you please, try not to give your foreign audience the wrong impression of us.
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As far as this particular Congressman's vote goes, I hope he votes for it. The constituants who are urging him to vote against it appear, to me, to be a bit naive. Do they really think we'll be able to get anywhere near solving this monumental problem in the future? With the multiplying influence corporate lobbyests have on our politics every day? With the Supreme Court evidently now turning tricks for their corporate pimps? Of course we won't! It took us nearly half our republic's existance to get to this point for crying out loud!! We can always improve upon a flawed bill, but we can't improve upon nothing. So I hope he votes for it, and then forthrightly sets out to drasticly improve it.
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Why America is so divided by their attitudes toward health-care reform ? Partly understandable is that the Obama reform is not a one-year or short-term solution, and thus it must never be irresponsible. Japan's national health-care system is on the brink of bankruptcy with its rapidly graying society. How far should the government involve in heal care is an essential but serious question for America ?
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I am one of the voters who have been urging Congressman Altmire to support the healthcare legislation now under debate. I believe you have failed to present an accurate picture of local views. Very few think action should be delayed because very few think Congress could ever come up with better legislation. And I've heard no one argue that Obama is advocating passage of the bill simply in order to have a "win." Perhaps that's because I don't frequent "diners." Why do journalists persist in thinking "real America" is to be found in diners?
Seems to me to be a way to sneak in "tea party" venting without confronting the class and racial differences in a place like Aliquippa, PA.
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Okay, a $500 prescription is not expensive. He should get unemployment, and if that runs out, then he shouldn't have waited for a job. The United States do not require universal healthcare everywhere, it should be a state's decision on whether they should have "tax funded" healthcare or not.
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""I still have to go home to my district to look my family and friends and neighbours in the eye for the rest of my life on this important vote, and know that I did the right thing. This is not about politics."
Not about politics . . .
From his own website:
Congressman Altmire is consistently rated as one of Congress' most independent members. In fact, Congressional Quarterly – a non-partisan publication – recently identified Congressman Altmire as having one of the most independent voting records in Congress in 2009.
National Journal --another non-partisan publication -- found that Congressman Altmire’s voting record in 2009 was more conservative than 53.5 percent of House Members’, placing him to the right of center."
Not about politics. In that famous phrase, "You may think that: I couldn't possibly comment."
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4. At 03:36am on 19 Mar 2010, gloria wrote:
"Seems to me to be a way to sneak in "tea party" venting without confronting the class and racial differences in a place like Aliquippa, PA."
Who knew Tea partiers liked diners? Were there rebel flags and 4x4's as well?
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I have to ask, and then I'm going to bed.
If Congressman Altmire is so concerned about the views of his constituents and they are so important to him, couldn't he have asked long before now? Even financed a poll or two maybe.
It would have given a fairer idea of the true balance of views in his constituency than a phone-in is likely to. Unless every single potential voter next November emails and phones, and, of course, only does it once . . .
I'm tempted to add a thought about the role of 'conscience' in a political decision, but I think I'd better not.
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Help us out Mark by telling us what is actually in the bill? Or at least asking what they do and don't like, your vox pops?
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5. At 03:39am on 19 Mar 2010, Mitchell Ortiz wrote:
"Okay, a $500 prescription is not expensive."
It isn't? That's the rent of my flat for two weeks in central London. I've heated it, had hot water, and cooked in it all through a cold winter for less than that. (And I bet electricity, gas and rent cost a lot less in Murraysville Pennsylvania.) It's more than I spend on food a month.
So what's a really pricey prescription, then?
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9. At 04:25am on 19 Mar 2010, John M wrote:
"Help us out Mark by telling us what is actually in the bill? Or at least asking what they do and don't like, your vox pops?"
In lieu of anything else (because you don't get coherent answers to either question otherwise, it seems) see 27 and 61 in the previous thread.
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What is with the bash against 4X4's??
Anyway, $500 is a ridiculously high price for an Rx. Poor Americans.
Should take lessons from Canada, where we have REAL health care.
Nice chattin witch ya!
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In 1965, Lyndon Johnson pushed through both Medicare and Medicaid programs. For the benefit of non-US bloggers, Medicaid was introduced to cover most of the medical expenses for persons who usually had enough income to cover their expenses but could not cover catastrophic (think major accident, heart attack or cancer) medical events.
Currently, each state sets its own eligibility for Medicaid. Some are not covered a/c no fixed address (homeless people); others not covered a/c migrant farm workers; or not resident in the state for a long enough period. Others not covered because they own property. Of the states, Massachusetts is perhaps the most generous in their coverage.
Over the 45 years in existence, the reimbursement by Medicare/Medicaid for expenses of physicians and hospitals has drifted down -- as a result, about 40% of physicians and other providers will NOT accept new patients whose only coverage is Medicaid.
If Medicaid no longer covers enough people to get needed medical care, WHY NOT FIX MEDICAID instead of designing a brand new program with many new government agencies, regulations, interferences with the doctors and having the IRS auditing each person filing a tax return to see if that tax-payer has the federally mandated insurance coverage?
I've made that suggestion to our senators from California, and been ignored. They are committed to fulfilling Pres. Obama's need to be remembered (like F. D. Roosevelt, but apparently not like L. B. Johnson) for initiating a brand new social program. IMO they ought to fix what doesn't work, rather than overlaying an already state-regulated insurance industry with a set of new Federal regulations.
Congress as an institution has a history of not being able to set adequate tax rates to pay for the new benefits they design. The programs always cost more than is contemplated at passage. Consider the US Social Security program, Medicare as two examples that still require readjustment - either by raising taxes again, reducing benefits, postponing normal retirement ages or some combination thereof. Sad that we who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it.
TeaPot562
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So one of Mr. Ferri's customers lost his insurance and is being charged nearly $500 for a prescription and he can't find it in his heart to think, "You know, if he can't get his medication, he might die." No, not Mr. Ferri. He's thinking about how this particular brand of reform is "bad" for the country - though it might be good for his customers who'd like to keep on taking their medication and survive. Interesting.
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10. At 04:43am on 19 Mar 2010, squirrelist wrote:
So what's a really pricey prescription, then?
$1,200 a month for Interferon B, which is considered an "orphan" drug - meaning not mass produced. My sister has Multiple Sclerosis and that's what she has to pay. But there are some drugs, especially the experimental cancer drugs, that can run into the tens of thousands. One I heard of costs $1.5 million.
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Re: 15
Sorry, that should be Interferon 1B.
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My congress woman is Kosmas and she is one of the Democratic Congress Representatives in play right now.I have urged her to support this health care reform bill.While not perfect it will start the process of bring the U.S. health care system up to modern standards.Not all U.S. citizens are ignorant bumpkins.
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A Congressman sitting on a fence is nothing new in American politics. Believing that he is REALLY listening to his constituents is naive! It wouldn't matter if 70% of his constituents were against it, Altmire can't buck his party and survive. So this is just the usual sham, "don't worry folks, I'll do what's best for ya!"
Mark, you keep saying that this is about Obama's "authority". You should be saying "usurped authority." The President of the United States might suggest a course of action, but it is Congress that must create and pass legislation. The President can either sign it into law or veto it, but he SHOULD NOT be interfering with Congress, he shouls NOT be calling up Congressmen like Altmire from Air Force One, and he should NOT be flying around in Air Force One doing "community organizing" and shouting at the American people like Hugo Chavez!
Obama is the one who is following the wrong course, who is trying to establish a cult of personality, who is abusing the office of President! This must be stopped for the good of the nation.
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"It's a garbage can of different ideas, some which may be good but aren't honed out, others that are bad ideas, and it is all being delivered at once in order for the Democratic Party, my party, to look as though it can lead."
Jill thinks this has become about the president's authority. She tells me: "He looks like someone who is trying to win for the sake of winning. Leading not listening."
_____________________________________
This was to be expected, Obama has said so more than once.
The Democrats came to power not because of their organization and popularity, but because of general disgust for the neocons and GWB. As a result they had little or no unity in either house, and in fact have effective majority.
Obama had great organization and popularity, except with respect to the Democratic Party which was prepared for Hillary, not him. Hilary was the inside favorite - he was and is the outside long shot, without the track record and party network necessary to hit the ground the leader of the party. With only two years in congress he certainly doesn't have the chops to wheel, deal, and twist arms on the hill, either.
Without power among the insiders, he chose to turn the legislative initiative over to Pelosi and Reed, with disastrous results for his reputation as a reformer of all things Washington, and for his agenda.
Hence the conflicted, angry, confused and dejected opinions you found in Pennsylvania. We all hoped for real leadership. But Washington is about raw power, entrenched power, and those windmills aren't about to fall, even to the people's will, without a long and nasty fight.
The first battle of that war was always going to be in November 2010. Health care is only a preliminary skirmish, and if Obama gets a victory here it will make only a crack in the wall of privilege and power that oppresses and prevents the public interest.
Re that garbage can, we see the effect of getting too much information to the public; sausage making is never pretty, particularly when both sides are wielding chainsaws. Can we not get anything done? Will enough light and openness ever cleanse these stables?
The worse things get, the stronger we will be-
KScurmudgeon
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By the way, Mark, glad to see you talking to folks outside the beltway. You'll figure us out yet.
KScurmudgeon
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Mark have you spent time in a US hospital emergency room from midnight on? Ask people why they are there, how much they earn, etc. Could give a different picture then you are finding among those employed by health care or obviously able to eat in diners.
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My voter registration has no party affiliation.
I like to think of myself as a conservative independant.
I'll side with the GOP more often than not because I'm choosing the lesser of two evils, but once in a while a democrat comes along who I can respect and support like Joe Liberman, I like that Guy.
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"It appears you don't have coverage," she tells him. It appears the man's lost his job and so lost his health insurance. "The prescription is rather expensive. It's $464."
"The chemist's owner, Bill Ferri, has some advice for his congressman:
"Jason Altmire, you should not be for this plan."
Irony meter broken.
The stupid, it burns...
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22 GreySquirrel1867
"...once in a while a democrat comes along who I can respect and support like Joe Liberman, I like that Guy."
You might want to reconsider your support for Sen. Lieberman. He and his friend Se. McCain have introduced a bill so vile in its implications that true conservatives and libertarians should be wincing. The "Enemy Belligerent, Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act" literally- literally- gives the executive unlimited power to a.) name anyone, absolutely anyone (regardless of citizenship status) as a "belligerent" and then lock them away indefinitely, torture them, without recourse in a court of law.
I can't wait to see how the Republicans leap to the defense of something this Orwellian. "But the government would NEVER abuse its power and lock away people for no good reason..." Ask people in China, or Burma, or Egypt, or Iran about that.
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KScurmudgeon # 19
"Sometimes your medicine bottle has on it, "Shake well before using." That is what God has to do with some of His people. He has to shake them well before they are ever usable.”
Edward Everett Hale .
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"Okay, a $500 prescription is not expensive."
Not to insurance companies it isn't. I'll bet a pound to a penny that the cost of that drug to anyone with insurance is more likely $100-$200 dollars tops.
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The problem with this bill is the record of history, and the lack of accountability for congress. Medicare was sold with a cost projection that turned out to be so wildly low that it contituted an act of fraud against the people, like contracting to have your house painted for $5,000.00 and ending up with a bill for $50,000.00 that you can't complain about. At the same time, more than 70% of the monies are spent on management of the program, enforcement of regulations (most of which didn't exist at the time the bill passed) and subsidies to corporate America, and if you look at the record, the hyperinflation of medical costs didn't even begin until medicare was created. Government money is the cause for, not the solution to, unreasonable health care costs.
In this bill, which is projected to cost a trillion dollars over ten years, there is no triggger mechanism that repeals it if it goes over projected cost (read: the price its being sold for) that calls for its repeal and re-legislation using reality to get the approval of the people. There is no limit on how much of the funds can be used for things other than paying for deserving citizens' medical procedures. There is no way to pay for it other than more shady accounting tricks and borrowing from abroad. And, to top it off, it doesn't have the support of the electorate (as proven by recent election results).
The new tactic of using procedural tricks to pass something the people don't support reminds me alot of the adoption of the EU's constitution, which the people soundly defeated in referendum and had forced upon them using procedural tricks.
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Ref 24 - Via-Media
Isn't it extraordinary that such a bill, giving government - as you say - literal power of life and death over individuals is being promulgated by the same people as those who oppose a - literal - life giving bill promulgating health for all. Not only this but giving government - that much to be suspected organisation of deviousness who all must be armed against - literally - these powers.
One's jaw is slack.
Ref 25 - watermanaquarious
If there ever was a god, I think he's up and left and joined the other side.
Ref 22 - GreySquirrel
You know a man by the friends he chooses.
Altmires bleating about having to go home and live among his constituents, therefore needs to be seen to be toeing the party line is exactly the sort of cowardly politically motivated bilge that makes the more rational among us despair of politicians. Sadly it appears to fool most of the fools most of the time....
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I am worried.
If the Presidents phone on Air Force One isn't working properly, can someone get an engineer round there quickly. The scenarios resulting from the leader of the free world having a dodgy line are too grim to be contemplated, tho' I suppose Blackberry One might be a stop-gap. Perhaps the utility bill wasn't paid on time?
Concerned of the UK.
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My husband has been diagnosed with esophageal cancer. This Saturday we are going to Sloane Kettering where he will have a liver biopsy to see whether it has spread to the liver. On Monday we will see the doctor to find out what to do. He is now taking an intravenous drip of Oxaliplatin which he will get once every three weeks. He now takes 4 Xeloda pills every day.
We have excellent insurance and so far we have not received any bills...so we have no idea what this is costing. The medical procedures started in late February...He has had a barium swallow, a cat scan, a pet scan and some biopsies done during an endoscopy. He is not over weight, has never drunk alcohol and does not smoke and exercised when he rode his bike to work..which was 3 and a half miles each way. He has slightly elevated cholesterol so he takes lipitor.
This kind of event can happen to anyone at any time. Your life can be turned upside down with the diagnosis of an illness.
We have received no counseling about how to deal with this emotionally. We have been told that people who are positive and optimistic do better..so I am trying to be happy...but this is a nightmare.
It must be hell for someone who does not have good insurance and at this point I am not sure what our insurance will be like and how much they will cover ...and whether we will be bankrupted....
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Mark, the views of the people you interviewed reflect the opinion of millions of Americans who acknowledge our healthcare system is broken but oppose the bill that is being considered without offering a cohesive rationale for their opposition, other than the fact that they don't want the government involved.
Considering the fact that the government is already involved in running our military, VA, Social Security, MEDICARE, MEDICAID, NASA, NOAA, DOE, education, air traffic control, the port authority, the Weather Bureau, the Park Service and many other departments and agencies effectively and efficiently having them replace a middle man who is doing a lousy job at administering healthcare funds would be a blessing.
Most of the problems our government has in running programs are not the result of inept employees who can not figure out how to do their job, but because of political decisions that impair their ability to provide services effectively and efficiently.
Their opinions also highlight the level of misinformation or misunderstandings that currently exist among the electorate. The public option is no longer part of the bill and, therefore, the government will not be running anything. What is being proposed is regulation to end the most pervasive practices of the insurance industry and introduce changes to make healthcare more affordable for business and consumers. Even when the public option was still part of this bill, it was modeled after the civil service health plan which uses regulated insurance companies to administer the funds.
If Rep. Altmire is true to his word and this is not about politics or his political future he should vote for it. Is the bill perfect? Definitely not, but like all other government and corporate programs it can be improved as time goes by and as we know more about its flaws and its strengths. What should be unacceptable and rejected is the lousy system we currently have.
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The chemist's owner said, "I think we do need healthcare reform but this is not the healthcare reform that we need in this country."
Maybe - but hasn't Congress had the topic for well over a year now?
And how many times has Health Care Reform been attempted in the past - only to fail? Does anybody know?
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Perhaps a better question: how many people have tried to introduce a similar bill?
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Altmire's party is the party of treason. No wonder they are afraid of their constituency.
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Ref 30 - bepa
My heart goes out to you and your husband. After hearing stories like yours, one always feels so impotent, and wish there was some way one could help. The least anyone can do is to send love and strengthening thoughts. I hope everything goes as well as it possibly can, and that you both get the help of every kind that you need. Look after yourself too - the strength you need will be as important as that your husband needs.
I hope the insurance situation sees you through. The extra worry of this is exactly why all Americans will find the relief of universal health-care to be a wonderful thing.
Twelve years ago my husband was diagnosed with renal cancer. He was with an excellent firm whose health insurance covered all the treatment he needed - we thought - including some extremely expensive and cutting-edge treatment which he was able to have at home. An excellent nurse visited twice a day to oversee this, and to 'train' me. His cancer was too far advanced for a great deal of hope for the future, but no-one was giving up hope. Sadly he had a violent reaction to the treatment, and it had to be withdrawn, leaving him nerve damaged, and with the underlying cancers still, of course, wreaking havoc. At this point, the insurance company argued that the resulting unforeseen outcome was not something he was covered for and withdrew. Quite apart from the practical needs, the emotional cost, and cost in time and energy required that should have used to deal with his health needs had to be channelled into trying - in vain - to get some help from the company was exhausting. I still feel anger a decade later, remembering being told, "But we are a business - this is a business matter." Which it was, but we had paid over almost five decades into a scheme for the reassurance that if we got ill, we would be taken care of.
BUT - we live in the UK. Our local doctor and nurses who had been in the picture in 'harness' with the private scheme stepped up their action. Our outcome was not good in the sense that his survival was limited, but that was through no fault of any of the care we got. I tried to estimate what we cost the NHS, based on the known costs of the private insurance, and gave up. It must have run into tens of thousands. But, of course, all free.
Come on US - you can do it too, and people like bepa need it.
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Poor Altmire it toast either way next November...he might as well go down in history as a yes for a regulatory bill of an out-of-control industry that's been fought over for 100 years. But he was in the health care 'middleman' shark pool before his political career...so where will he get a job afterwards? Don't get me wrong our doctors and nurses are TOPS ... its the financing and brokering of/behind the system that's stinko. I don't think the gov't could do worse, those who opine that a government run system will stink aren't aware of the corruption in the current system (and likely have cushy plans). The bill stinks because it was brokered down by special interests but its a start.
If Altmire votes yes but that he's puttting some amendments on the table day after the vote it might just help him squeak by the elections.
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Ref 30, bepa
Sorry to hear what you are going through. I had a kidney and a malignant tumor removed a year ago and there is no sign of cancer spreading to adjacent organs.
My experience was not as good as yours, from an insurance coverage perspective. I am on MEDICARE and like most senior citizens I also have supplemental insurance to cover the 20% not covered by MEDICARE. My tumor was detected almost by accident when I began to bleed and my primary care physician ordered a CT-scan to see if had passed what they suspected were kidney stones.
When a large tumor was detected I had to wait almost a month for surgery, much of it waiting for my insurance company to approve the procedures and for the surgeon to fit me in his busy schedule.
Even though there were surgical complications and instead of a laproscopy the surgeon had to do a large incision to cauterize an artery and remove the kidney/tumor, they released me from the hospitalafter only 2.5 days because after the third day the insurance company would have had to pick up the $150 daily deductible that patients pay during the first 3 days in hospital. I was in such bad shape that my two sons had to lift me from a wheelchair to put me in the car to take me home.
In any case, have faith. Medicine has advanced a lot and there are many successful stories of patients surviving cancer and living a healthy life after surgery.
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Ref 32, baytrees
"Maybe - but hasn't Congress had the topic for well over a year now?"
It is worse than that, this issue has been debated and bills to introduce reform have been debated several times since the Truman era with identical results: yes, we need reform but not this one...or changing the best healthcare system in the world would destroy.
No alternatives or remedies were ever introduced after each attempt to correct what we currently have. Kind of tells us who is really in charge...
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Ref 32, baytrees
I believe the first attempt to implement health reform in the USA took place in 1912, when Theodore Roosevelt ran for President.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt tried to introduce a national health insurance system as part of Social Security but did not succeed.
Harry S. Truman tried it but failed, mostly because of intense lobbying from the American Medical Association and the insurance industry.
Johnson, Nixon, Carter and Clinton tried it but were all defeated by the same special interests that oppose reform today.
From a political perspective the Democrats have usually been the ones pushing for reform and offering alternatives, the GOP has consistently opposed reform because of ideological and economic considerations.
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District 4?
Wow... Isn't that Daniel Boone's Frontierland? Old Boone started in Central PA, headed west, then south, then - after 'trailblazing the wilderness' - ended up getting shot at the Alamo in Texas. Remember the Alamo?
So - District 4 is a stone's throw from Ohio:
Ohio is a very balanced state. In recent decades, presidential candidates and pollsters looked very closely to Ohio for predictions as to how the nation would vote. Statistically, their political stats looked the closest to national stats.
AND - you were very close to West Virginia! Coal Country!
Northern WVA is rather mountainous. It's a lovely drive. America's Alps, perhaps? But if you travel too far south... the mountains have all been leveled for their ore. (slight exaggeration.) Since then, the Hatfield and McCoy's have been fighting flooding due to the lack of topsoil and natural drainage. (not an exaggeration.) But, that's another story.
Nice to see you getting out and about, honey!
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"Mr Altmire may find he's torn between his constituents, his conscience and his president."
If I were in that predicament I would vote my conscience.
[Presidents don't a Republic make. Remember certain Richard M. Nixon?]
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Can anyone please tell me why they oppose providing healthcare for millions of people who cannot afford it ? I really do not understand opponents of healthcare reform. If they are worried out the costs - they should ensure the government does not start ill conceived wars in far flung lands.
The republicans who are against this are the party of the religious right 1 question - Would Jesus be against providing healtcare for millions of people ?
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Re #12 "Poor Americans.
Should take lessons from Canada, where we have REAL health care."
Oh really?
So how come we (in the U$A) see so many Canadians coming here willing to pay for a simple PETSCAN, MRI or a quadruple by-pass surgery?
"Oh, Canada" :(
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amaryr wrote: "I am worried.
If the Presidents phone on Air Force One isn't working properly, can someone get an engineer round there quickly. The scenarios resulting from the leader of the free world having a dodgy line are too grim to be contemplated, tho' I suppose Blackberry One might be a stop-gap. Perhaps the utility bill wasn't paid on time?
Concerned of the UK."
Dear Concern of UK.
Relax. Our Commander-in-Cchief can take any phone call from Air Force One he WISHES to take. Even if there's an EMP nearby.
Or even launch any nuclear weapons he wants.
Of course of BHO manages to establish in time which are which and what they do. :)
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This is fascinating. According to the Cook PVI, Altmire is far from safe in a Republican+6 district. He voted no last time. But he voted for the abortion amendment and is now "leaning democrat" according to the very excellent New York Times "Democrats to Watch on the Health Care Vote" tabulator (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/16/us/politics/20100316-health-care-dems.html?ref=policy).
If calculations are correct, assuming every democrat considered on the tabulator votes yes, they will pass the bill with 231-200.
However, this would be too good to be true for the Democrats, so if we look at those who are considered "tossups" - 7 of them - and take them away from the potential number who will vote yes, that leaves us with 224, still enough to pass it.
But 4 of those "tossups" voted no in November, while 3 voted yes. Meaning that my final estimation, presuming that all "leaning/likely/solid" democrats shall vote yes, will be 227-220 if the "yea" tossups again vote yes.
Phew.
It's looks as though it's in the bag. Obama may not need Altmire's vote.
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#30 bepa: I am so sorry for you and your husband. Counseling and the social work of preparing you for the choices you will make and the bills to come are items that have dropped from many doctors' skillsets. You might get more of that at Sloan/Kettering...ask. Be prepared to be your own and your husband's advocate throughout this process.
Mark, et al: this is a timely story, as the latest news last night was that CBO says the healthcare bill will LOWER the deficit over a billion dollars. Now the GOP is in total disarray over all their lies about the cost of the bill and the last few lingering ditherers like Altmire will happily jump on the bandwagon and help it pass. It's not a perfect bill -- no bill is perfect. But it's better than what we have, which is 40 million people with no insurance at all and 40 thousand people a year dying because of it. We've been trying to do this since Harry Truman, for god's sake!
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Since FDR, the US and even moreso Europe have proven that not only doesn't socialism work, but its more dilute form the social welfare state is economically unsustainable. Both Europe and America are bankrupt. And not just because of the recent finanancial crisis or the huge cost of the US providing the military force to defend Western civilization for the last 68 years but because the productivity of these societies cannot sustain the level of services that have been provided. They are structurally flawed. As an example, in the last 30 years, California's government has gone from a 15 billiion dollar surplus in its coffers to a 40+ billion dollar debt by spending 2 billion a year more than it took in. Socialist medical care as demanded by those who insist on a single provider which would be the government or by forcing insurance companies to write policies that would drive them bankrupt won't work either. Medicare is already broke and robbing from it to pay for socialized medicine for the entire population will only make it worse.
The Republicans have no solutions either. Hey Republicans, instead of so called tort reform to lower malpractice insurance which really means giving license to commit medical malpractice with impunity, how about making it a felony for a doctor to not report a suspected case of medical malpractice by another doctor to the police and how about building more medical and nursing schools and more hospitals to provide more free enterprise medical care making it more competitive to bring the salaries of American trained doctors into line with what they are worth? That way hospitals won't have to and shouldn't be allowed to continue to import unqualified doctors from other parts of the world to make up for the shortfall and commit malpractice under the the hospital's license.
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They vote how the insurance companies and other vested interest in the healthcare system want them too. Prostitutes the entire congress. Ignorance is the US way of doing things. Busniess interest provide distortions and jingle phrases, socialism, etc, and the ignorant rally and press their elected officials to vote for their own disadvantage..what a pitiful state of a nation.
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She says of healthcare: "Obviously it is a mess but I don't think having the federal government involved in it is the solution. I just fundamentally don't like the idea of government being involved in health care."
This is what I just... don't... understand.
I know many intelligent, respectable people who have this strange opinion.
They can't explain WHY they don't want government to referee health.
They just don't like it.
It's fundamental.
Fundamentalists annoy me.
We have Fundamentalist Fringe Muslim folks who think bombs get attention (which they do, in a bad way), and Fundamentalist Christian Americans think it's okay to hang Israeli flags in their churches (which is scary on SO many levels), and now these folks... "just fundamentally don't like" our government getting involved in the health and wellness of our people. Aha. Okay. Rhiiiiiiiight.
Well, I think I'm fundamentally opposed to an overinflated insurance system power-mongered by inbred, overly-bureaucratic, money-loving medical costs.
-- Our medical industry is fundamentally... sick.
_____________________________
StDom (#31) -- Agreed on all counts.
When's your birthday?
I think I'd like to have a parade in honor of your Esteemed Saintliness.
Bepa Dear (#30) --
Esophageal cancer? Yuck. May ya'll be well enough to continue working and to continue your medical insurance in the coming years. Peace to you and to yours. Truly.
ShiveringOffForgottenNeurosis (#18)
I should know better than to bite the troll-bait - But, you say:
Obama is the one who is following the wrong course, who is trying to establish a cult of personality, who is abusing the office of President! This must be stopped for the good of the nation.
But, for the good of the nation, it is CRITICAL that our representatives start doing what will improve the living situations* of our people, rather than to pander for re-election, maintaining only their own power and privilege. Good God, Man. Get a clue.
_____
* I almost used the term 'sitz-im-leben', but I'd rather not talk over our friend's head.
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No, mountains of West Virginia and Kentucky have not been leveled.
And they were hardly an equivalent of European or NZ Alps.
[Neither were/are North Carolina's Smoky Mts]
Rocky Mts. and Sierra Nevada would be a more realistic equivalent.
[although both are much younger]
BTW. There are still quite few folks in WV and Kentucky who 'ain't paid no whiskey tax since 1792'.
And what are YOU or BHO going to do about that even if you desperately need money for your health care scheme? Or big banks or GM bail-outs?
[ref. to 2nd Amendment]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FROM MY COLD HANDS!"
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Thanks for the grassroot input. As usual grassroots folk make a lot of sense.
Where is the part in OBAMACARE that deals with the real skyrocketing costs, which are
1. the endless torts
2. cost of medical care itself
3. insurance premiums,
Don’t ask Obama.
He won't answer your question unless, of course he likes your question. If he doesn’t like your question he will dance all around it; eventually telling you nothing related to your original inquiry.
1. Tort (defensive medicine) increases US health care costs by about 10%. Guess what group leads all groups in political contributions?
In 2000, 86% of contributions from tort lawyers went to the Democrats. In 2008 the percentage was 95%. And you know what:
ObamaCare does NOT include tort reforms. Let me say this again: ObamaCare is not proposing restraints on lawsuits or tort lawyers. Look for this cost to go up, up, up...
2. The Share of GDP spent on health care, (from the US Department of Health and Human Services), has quadrupled
- from 5.2% in 1960
- to 16.2% of GDP in 2007
- to @ 20% in 2009
The primary cost factor is new technologies. I can't find in Obamacare where this provision is lodged. This is a MAJOR oversight.
3. Number Of uninsured is so large - 16% in the US. For about half affordability is considered too difficult, needing assistance. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates a savings of $157 billion over the next 10 years.
My question is how (exactly).
Megan McArdle (Washington, D.C.-based blogger and journalist who writes mostly about economics, finance and government policy) wrote:
“Ultimately, this rests on the question: are we really going to cut Medicare? If we’re not, this gargantuan new entitlement is going to end up costing us about $200B a year over the next decade, which even in government terms is an awful lot of money.”
The new IRS aidit requirements attached to Obamacare, excludes two groups
1. illegal immigrants who aren't supposed to be included in the insurance proviso in the first place (So, what will the US do? Let illegal immigrants die in emergency rooms?). This issue has been a yes/no affair since the beginning. I think Obama intends to solve it by declaring an amnesty. Well, that should be a popular move!
2. people who are incarcerated.
Personally, I think this is another fiscal disaster just waiting to pop.
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Re #42 "The republicans who are against this are the party of the religious right 1 question - Would Jesus be against providing healtcare for millions of people ?"
Cleary not. Since Jesus has stated expressic verbis:
"My kingdom is not on this Earth"
Next demogogic question?
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Thanks for the grassroot input. As usual grassroots folk make a lot of sense.
Where is the part in this OBAMACARE package that deals with the real skyrocketing costs, which are
1. the endless torts
2. cost of medical care itself
3. insurance premiums.
Don’t ask Obama because he won't answer your question…unless, of course he likes your question. If he doesn’t like your question he will dance all around it and actually end up telling you nothing related to your original concern.
1. Tort (defensive medicine) increases US health care costs by about 10%. Guess what group leads all groups in political contributions?
In 2000, 86% of contributions from tort lawyers went to Democrats. In 2008 the percentage was 95%. And you know what:
ObamaCare does NOT include tort reform. Let me say this again: ObamaCare is not proposing restraints on lawsuits or tort lawyers.
2. The Share of GDP spent on health care, (from the US Department of Health and Human Services), has quadrupled
- from 5.2% in 1960
- to 16.2% of GDP in 2007.
- to @ 20% in 2009
The primary factor new technologies, but I cannot find in the Obama care bill that this mounting cost for improved technologies has been factored into so-called cost reductions. This is a MAJOR oversight.
3. Number of uninsured is large - 16% in the US are uninsured. For over 50% affordability is considered too difficult, needing assistance. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates a savings of $157 billion over the next 10 years.
My question is how (exactly).
Megan McArdle (Washington, D.C. - based blogger and journalist who writes mostly about economics, finance and government policy) wrote:
“Ultimately, this rests on the question: are we really going to cut Medicare? If we’re not, this gargantuan new entitlement is going to end up costing us about $200 billion a year next decade, which even in government terms is an awful lot of money.”
The new IRS audit requirements for Obamacare, exclude two (2) groups
1. illegal immigrants who aren't supposed to be included in the insurance proviso in the first place. So, what will the US do? Let illegal immigrants die in emergency rooms?. This illegal immigrant issue has been a yes/no affair since the beginning. I think Obama intends to solve it by declaring an amnesty. That's going to be a popular move!
2. persons who are incarcerated. What happens when these folk get sick. Do we let them die to decrease prison overcrowding?
Personally, I think this is another financial disaster just waiting to go boom!
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As a mere observer to what appears/is being made out as a difficult decision/debate I can't help but wonder whether without the scaremongering, politics of fear and lobbying this is actually remarkably simple...
Does the wealthiest nation in the world want to have some form of healthcare available for the benefit of its poorest citizens or does it want to leave them behind? Yes or no?
Insurance coverage can change like the wind- just like your employment status...read the small print. But if you're sick and need treatment- ask yourself...what happens if you aren't covered, or even worse- if you think you are but they just won't pay?
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Is Obama planing to reform the medical care systems on the back of medical cannabis, this would provide massive revenues for those who need free/prescription medication and bolster current projected spending on a new style health service in the USA which currently has 3rd world charities operating free medical services across the USA..
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"Mr Altmire may find he's torn between his constituents, his conscience and his president." (from Mardell)
As are many members of Congress. This report gives an alternate picture of how the American political system operates to that put forward by some critics here who assert that legislators merely roll over for well-heeled lobbyists. Altmire is more typical, I think.
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As I have stated before:
Health care 'reform' (in quotation marks) is no longer Americans' number 1 priority, according to most recent polls.
No 1 is state of US economy
No 2. is unemployment
Hey, yo! in the White House! "While You Were Asleep"... At the rudder.
"You've Got Mail!".
[Correction: you'll get mail in November.]
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I wonder what excuse the GOP is going to use now that the Congressional Budget Office confirms the obvious and tells us that the proposed legislation and subsequent deployment of changes to our healthcare system will reduce the federal budget; and considering the fact that the "abhorrent socialist" public option is no longer part of the bill?
I guess it is time to revert to Plan B and start chanting Death Panels again!
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squirrelist (#6), what point are you trying to make here? Congressman Altmire means, by saying "this is not about politics," is that he seeks to vote the right way for the constituents of his district, even if it hurts him politically. Do you doubt his sincerity when he says that?
Or do you mean merely that any decision on a question of policy is by definition politics? That's true, but does not at get at the meaning which Altmire is trying to convey.
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squirrelist (#8) "If Congressman Altmire is so concerned about the views of his constituents and they are so important to him, couldn't he have asked long before now? Even financed a poll or two maybe."
Perhaps he has asked. Why would you assume he doesn't talk to his constituents on a regular basis? In any case, the particulars have changed over the past year, and the question he is faced with now is whether to support the legislation as it stands today.
Members of Congress do not have a budget for polling, in the sense of a scientifically conducted poll. They have newsletters and web sites to inform their constituents, and they get feedback from their constituents by mail or telephone. It is also usual that they visit their district from time to time to meet directly with constituents, as Mr. Altmire is reported doing here.
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The choice has become one of private plunder or public graft. The industry would like to maintain all the advantage of defrauding the public and insuring that patients cannot sue for neglient care,and that care can be denied for reasons of profit, while the governments would like to continue the contracts, kick-backs and other deals made with campaign contributors. Even though the US system is by far the most expensive in the world it ranks about 14th among industrial nations for quality and results. Of course the Tea Party apparently is unaware of such facts or like their media misinformation leaders would rather not recognize these kind of issues. Stupid is what stupid does.
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"It appears you don't have coverage," she tells him. It appears the man's lost his job and so lost his health insurance. "The prescription is rather expensive. It's $464."
Did she add "Have a nice day".
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There is a dynamic to a close vote such as this which may not be apparent to those unfamiliar with US politics. This was reported yesterday by Mark Sandalow, a political analyst for KCBS radio. The Democratic leadership will attempt to know exactly how many votes they have, and if they have more than necessary, then some Democrats who want the bill to pass, but who will have difficulty in their district if they vote for it, will be given a "pass," meaning that there will be no consequences from the party for not going along. So if it squeaks by with a one or two vote margin, it may actually not be that close.
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The social welfare state in America, Europe, Japan, is finished, bankrupt, kaput. There is no more money to pay for it. What governments should be doing is finding ways to cut back on services everywhere and to whatever degree they can. They can start with the most frivolous items like supporting the arts and work their way down until they provide only the essentials, police, fire departments, armies, and food banks. Most of the rest will have to go. Those that don't will have to pay for themselves without subsidies. Publically funded medical care is far too epensive to survive. When capitalism collapes completely there will be no money to pay even for the essential social services. In a strange sense, the USSR has won. We have evolved into the socialist state we fought against so desperately in the cold war.
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So Mark why didn't you ask for specifics of the bill. Do you yourself know what's in the bill - good or bad? Wouldn't it be better to have an in-depth column instead of a shallow one considering the magnitude of this historic bill? Just saying.
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Continuing on to what I started... let me give you a for instance:
The Bad = this bill does not subject the insurance companies to competition such as anti-trust legislation. In other words insurance companies can still collude on prices for insurance in each state, keeping the rates as high as possible.
The Good = 1) Insurance companies will have to pay up to 85% of the premiums taking in to actual health care (not overhead and enormous executive pay). After which any premium not paid out will be refunded to the individual. This is the case where the 'small print' actually benefits the payor. 2) No more throwing people out of insurance plans simply because they had the audacity to get sick. 3) A cap on what is paid out by consumers. 4) No caps on what the insurance companies have to pay for medical treatment. 5) Young people can stay on their parents health insurance until they are 26 years old.
The Upside = Paperwork will be forced to be electronic health records which assists in the coordination of care. Doctors won't have to practice defensive medicine by ordering their own chest x-rays, etc., even though the patient already had a chest x-ray through another specialist. People will now be able to move freely through the workforce (i.e, pursue their bliss) and freeing up their creativity because they are not chained to one industry because it carries health insurance.
Substance over fluff.
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"Does the wealthiest nation in the world ..." (from post #54)
There's that old canard again. The US is not the wealthiest nation in the world, per capita.
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Again, how many times can you repeat patent falsehoods to promote your anti-American agenda?
U.S. is NOT "the richest country on Earth"
[Taking of huddled masses (including ca 20 million illegal aliens) may have something to do with it.]
Just like you repeat patent lies about U.S. supporting Taliban during Afghan-Soviet War.
[Taliban has been created in 1994, long after the Soviet defeat and withdrawal, in PAKISTANI madrassas, with a little help of ISI]
Just like you repeat patent lies about Islamists' attacks at WTC.
[the first one took place way before U.S. invasion on Iraq]
"Have you no decency"?!
[The Leftists will recognize this quote, I'm sure ;)]
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Well, I was very wrong, the new strategy does not involve death panels...it involves nuclear explosions! Thats what the newest "conservative" TV ad portrays to illustrate what will happen if the healthcare reform bill passes. Not surprisingly, the ad is sponsored by the same group that paid for political ads while the Supreme Court was considering campaign finance reform.
Ref 53, BluesBerry
Why should tort reform, an issue that encompasses much more than just medical malpractice be included in a healthcare reform bill? Should frivolous lawsuits related to car accidents, libel or a tree branch damaging a neighbor's lawn be ignored while we focus strictly on unsatisfactory facelifts, boob jobs, or inability to lose weight?
Yes, tort reform is a very important and complex issue that deserves attention, but adding to this bill is simply a Trojan horse designed to derail reform, and we all know it.
If you are interested in highlights of what is nincluded in President Obama's healthcare reform plan take a look at Sam's post Nr. 27 in the previous thread on this subject. It offers an objective summary of what is being proposed, without the usual spin that comes from both advocates and detractors of healthcare reform.
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Real Story:
An American Cry for Help
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/35572842#35572842
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Re#58
SaintDominick. PHHHLEEEEASE!
Democrats had and still have enough votes to pass any health reform bill by THEMSELVES. And a much more radical than the current one, to boot.
Everybody, including MM, knows that.
They haven't needed Republicans or anybody else to accomplish that.
Question: so why haven't they? Long time ago?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Via-Media #24: '"You might want to reconsider your support for Sen. Lieberman. He and his friend Se. McCain have introduced a bill so vile in its implications that true conservatives and libertarians should be wincing. The "Enemy Belligerent, Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act" literally- literally- gives the executive unlimited power to a.) name anyone, absolutely anyone (regardless of citizenship status) as a "belligerent" and then lock them away indefinitely,
torture them, without recourse in a court of law."
But that's wholly and undisputably unconstitutional. I bet even the Supreme court would agree so. And yet this bill was not only introduced by two supposedly educated men, but, did you say, may pass a Democratic congress? We're all doomed!!
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I don't know. Over a year ago, we were hearing that health reform was the most important issue. now we're told it isn't, in fact, practically irrelevant and a distraction. Yet people still say they're worried bout rising costs affecting them personally. But then say they don't want a bill that might offer them some relief.
And we get bombarded with opinions based only people's political standpoints, or endless punditry about parliamentary procedures, and virtually nothing pro or con about the provisions ion the bill itself. For example: Catholic nuns say it will do people a lot of good, pass it: Catholic Bishops say they'd like good to be done to people, but they don't like abortions, so don't.
From CNN:
Although some of the provisions in the reform bill won't be implemented immediately, here's what Democrats say would go into effect in the first year after passage:
Eliminating caps: If you buy a policy, a health care company will not be able to place a lifetime -- or annual -- cap on how much they will cover. This is will be especially important for those diagnosed with serious illnesses, such as cancer, who face steep medical bills.
Pre-existing conditions: The Senate bill includes $5 billion in immediate support to provide temporary coverage to uninsured Americans with pre-existing conditions. The money would help you until the new health care exchanges in the Senate bill are put into effect in 2014.
Children and pre-existing conditions: Another thing that's going to be very important, CNN Senior Political Analyst Gloria Borger said, is that there will be no exclusion of children with pre-existing conditions.
Dependent children: Your children will be covered until the age of 26.
"Children who are over 21 and may not have a job that pays their health insurance can still be on your policy," Borger said. "That's very important to a lot of families."
Small business tax credits: Those tax credits are aimed at helping small businesses buy health insurance for their employees. Tax credits of up to 50 percent of premiums will be available to firms that offer coverage, according to the Senate's plan.
Preventive care: All new insurance plans, Obama said, will be required to offer free preventive care in order to "catch preventable illnesses and diseases on the front end."
Appeals process: A new independent appeals process will be set up for those who feel that they were unfairly denied a claim by their insurance company.
Help for seniors: If you fall into the Medicare Part D Drug Benefit coverage gap, dubbed the "donut hole," you will receive $250 to help pay for prescriptions.
Isn't a lot of this what people said they wanted? Doesn't this address a lot of what people said was wrong? But supposedly a majority of Americans, and people and politicians in both parties now don't care if these reforms are abandoned? Maybe for another 60 years?
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Barbara (#65) probably knows very well that the specifics of the health care bills (the Senate bill and the House budget reconciliation bill) are available elsewhere online. She should also know that the purpose of a news-based blog is not to reproduce the news in detail, but merely to provide a forum for commenting on the news of the day.
Barbara, since you are so concerned with the details of the news, how is it that you seem to be unaware that the House has already passed repeal of the insurance antitrust exemption in separate legislation last month?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/24/politics/main6239739.shtml
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I'm about to call my representative, Representative Coffman (R - Colorado's Fightin' 6th) to suggest he support the bill.
He calls the bill the Democrats Slaughter Solution.
This should be interesting. I'll relay my experience.
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So much for reducing the deficit:
http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/EXCLUSIVE__Democrats_plan_doc_fix_after_reform.html?showall
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post 30.bepa
Words to those that are suffering,especially from some one you do not know
from Adam,can feel hollow.I pray things go well for you & your husband at
this hard time,take one day at a time.Your name is easy to remember,I will
keep remembering you & yours in prayer...
UKW
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Just for those who say 'socialised' European-style healthcare can't come up with innovative or new treatments.
(I haven't seen that objection for a while.)
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Kucinich gets a ride on Air Force One and is so overwhelmed by the honor that he changes his vote to a "yes". And the vote-buying goes on in the previously smoke-filled rooms, Pelosi, who has an approval rating of 3%, desperately trying to please her master in the White House with the 216 votes she needs. What a shambles they are making of democracy, ignoring the will of the majority OUTSIDE the Halls of Congress.
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Health care in Israel is both universal and compulsory, and is administered by a small number of organizations with funding from the government. All Israeli citizens are entitled to the same Uniform Benefits Package, regardless of which organization they are a member of, and treatment under this package is funded for all citizens regardless of their financial means. Until recently I've never regarded myself or my country as socialist and I think the Jewish peoples have always grasped capitalism.
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20 million 'illegal aliens' leaching American health care of its funds, eh?
Dear Mark, there's another marchin Washington on Sunday.
Hope you, your cameraman and recorder will be there. I'm bored with teabaggers.
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PursuitofLove (#72), you should not accept on blind faith the pronouncements of persons who post their own interpretations of complex matters without providing links to any authoritative documentation. There may be good reasons to object to some aspects of the McCain Lieberman bill, but it is directed at "alien unprivileged enemy belligerents" and does not provide for locking up US citizens indefinitely without trial.
Here is a link to a critical review of the bill from The Atlantic, which contains a link to the text of the bill itself (which is a pdf).
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I talked with a Coffman staffer.
He couldn't have been less interested. Rude? No. Abrupt? Certainly.
I would be willing to bet he did put a hash mark in the "supports bill" column.
Such is the nature of representative democracy in Colorado's 6th district -- the Fightin' Sixth. I can't say I'm surprised.
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Addendum to my post #82: Note that the language "... detain U.S. citizens without trial indefinitely ..." comes from the article in The Atlantic. In my opinion, the writer, Marc Ambinder is wrong.
Nearly all bills are debated and amended and, when passed, differ from the original version. One weakness in this bill is its failure to specify the handling of persons suspected to be enemy unprivileged belligerents when it has been determined that they are US citizens. That is something to fix, not something to get worked up about.
And there is certainly nothing in the bill authorizing "torture." Via-Media just made that up, it seems.
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Ref. 50, powermeerkat:
"Rocky Mts. and Sierra Nevada would be a more realistic equivalent.
[although both are much younger]"
Backwards. The Alps and Himalayas are younger. That why they're crumbling. They are too tall for their underlying structure. Our valleys are literally filled up with the crumbs of the original mountain range which was nearly twice as tall at one point.
Some people watch soap operas. I watch the Discovery Channel.
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Ref. 73, squirrelist:
"Isn't a lot of this what people said they wanted?"
It isn't what's in the bill so much as who's implementing it.
From the article:
She says of healthcare: "Obviously it is a mess but I don't think having the federal government involved in it is the solution. I just fundamentally don't like the idea of government being involved in health care."
This is as American a view point as any. This concern about distant control of local issues was voiced well before the Constitution was ratified, and it has never gone away... nor in my opion should it.
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Ref 73, squirrelist
"Isn't a lot of this what people said they wanted? Doesn't this address a lot of what people said was wrong? But supposedly a majority of Americans, and people and politicians in both parties now don't care if these reforms are abandoned?"
The reasons for opposition to the healthcare reform bill has nothing to do with its contents but with political opportunism, ideology, and special or personal interests.
If you ask people why they oppose reform they will tell you that they are not happy with the present system, but they don't think "Obamacare" is the right solution. If you press them and ask them for specific they will tell you that they are in favor of changes to the present system, along the lines of what is in the bill (without realizing it), but they don't want the government to have anything to do with healthcare, that the public option is a socialist approach (which by default means it is evil), and that reform will bankrupt the USA. Some will also voice concern over issues such as public funds being used to pay for abortions and illegal immigrants being eligible for free medical care.
Most of them don't know that the public option is no longer part of the bill, that the CBO announced healthcare reform will actually lower our budget deficits, that language has been introduced prohibiting the use of public funds for abortions, and that very specific language was introduced barring illegal immigrants from access to healthcare in the USA.
The sad truth is that most of those that oppose healthcare reform only listen to what is said on conservative media, to what conservative politicians have to say, and to the myriad of soundbites we hear on political ads paid for by special interests.
IMO, the President and the Democratic leadership share responsibility for not providing comprehensive and timely information designed to dispel rumors and false allegations. Their laid back attitude allowed the opposition to dominate the debate and they now find themselves in the uncomfortable position of trying to defend a plan that reflects the wishes of most Americans.
Hopefully it will not take long for people to realize the benefits of this bill, if it passes, but I am not holding my breath. Ideology, misperceptions, greed, and socio-political preferences are powerful considerations.
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"There are also concerns about the high level of UK public debt..." -- BBC: Pound falls against dollar and euro on 'recession risk' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8577304.stm)
What's this all about, Brits? Health care is demon over here, obviously, but what's the problem across the pond?
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Ref. 80, strontiumdog007:
"Health care in Israel is both universal and compulsory..."
Israel is a special case. As long as it's being subsidized by the U.S., it's hard to draw valid conclusions from it's experience with an eye to applying them to other countries who are required to balance their budgets alone.
It's sounds like a good deal, though.
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squirrellist wrote: "I'm bored with teabaggers."
Really?
I looked up the the term and it seems those perverts (having nothing to do with supporters of Tea Party) practice quite interesting forms of Sado-Maso sex.
[Of course interesting to outsiders]
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The system works.
The President can propose legislation, but cannot pass it. (Checks and Balances.) Congress can debate and posture and keep up the pretense they are "representing" someone other than those who paid to get them elected. "Property rights" (in this case the ability of major corporations to make profit from the misery and suffering of others) are protected, because everyone is perfectly happy with the status-quo...or at least that's the impression the media (who are in the business of selling advertising time/space to major corporations) is willing to promote. "Choice" (which is no choice at all, because your HMO decides when, where and how much medical care you get, and their only concern is keeping costs down) is preserved. In the mean time, "tea-partyers" can make street-theatre for the amusement of passers-by, and provide plenty of levity for foreigners.
I suppose some people, those who have those $500 or $1,200 per month prescriptions, or who are denied procedures because of the exorbitant cost, or dumped by hospitals on the street MIGHT object....but who really cares about any of them? It's not like they'll ever be on Entertainment Tonight!
The system works.....
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#79 - the rumors are QUITE clear that what Kucinich got for his vote was a guarterback for the Browns.
Also, the rumors are clear that Altmire's constituents are divided...pretty much right down the middle. Poor guy is stuck with his conscience, his re-election odds, or maybe holding out for...a new infield for the Pirates?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/19/10477/4237
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Even though I don't have any affinity for the Democratic Party (at least, less than the Republicans), I have tried to honestly to look the bill to see what exactly is in it. A Google search tells me that 4 bills are up for votes: Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Senate's bill - H.R. 3590), Affordable Health Care for America Act (House of Rep's bill - H.R. 3962) and Reconciliation Act of 2010 (H.R. 4872). Now ask your average American which one is "the health care bill" that the media is talking about, and you won't get one good answer. Then ask the average American what is each of these bills, and I will bet that none of them will know, depending on their political spin. To make it all the more confusing, each party and their associates (the president included) have all put such propaganda on it, it would put filmmaker Michael Moore to shame. The truth of the matter is that this issue has been so polarized, that some representatives (like Altmire, who was in my previous district) are torn between party loyalties, part of the bill which are favorable, and parts which are not. The result is such a conundrum, that no one (including the president) knows what they are voting for. At this point, the best bet is to break up the bill to smaller individual components, and then vote, rather than having a big Democratic propaganda of "THE Health care bill".
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Ref. 82, GH1618:
"There may be good reasons to object to some aspects of the McCain Lieberman bill, but it is directed at "alien unprivileged enemy belligerents" and does not provide for locking up US citizens indefinitely without trial."
Really?
10 SEC. 5. DETENTION WITHOUT TRIAL OF UNPRIVILEGED
11 ENEMY BELLIGERENTS.
12 An individual, including a citizen of the United
13 States, determined to be an unprivileged enemy belligerent
14 under section 3(c)(2) in a manner which satisfies Article
15 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of
16 Prisoners of War may be detained without criminal
17 charges and without trial for the duration of hostilities
18 against the United States or its coalition partners in which
19 the individual has engaged, or which the individual has
20 purposely and materially supported, consistent with the
21 law of war and any authorization for the use of military
22 force provided by Congress pertaining to such hostilities.
(italics mine)
This is nothing more than pablum. Perhaps Sen. McCain likes getting slapped down by the Court.
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26. At 09:15am on 19 Mar 2010, PartTimeDon wrote:
"Okay, a $500 prescription is not expensive."
Not to insurance companies it isn't. I'll bet a pound to a penny that the cost of that drug to anyone with insurance is more likely $100-$200 dollars tops.
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Asking if a $500 prescription is expensive is like asking if a $25,000 car is expensive. In other words, it depends. $25k for a new Honda Fit would be quite expensive (or overpriced if you prefer), but it would be a bargain if it were a new BMW.
The point is some drugs cost much more than others to make, and that is reflected in their price (of course other factors affect price as well). Interferon 1B is actually protein produced by genetically engineered cell cultures. Drugs like these cost many times more to produce than a typical pill. So $500 per month for a drug like that may still be "expensive" from the buyers point of view, but it is still a very good deal when you consider what it takes to develop and manufacture the drug, and for the drastic quality of life improvements that many MS patients experience when taking it.
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People who are against reform are for the status quo....and that means annual health insurance premium increases of 20-30%.
I should know ....our Blue Cross plan goes up between 20 and 25% every year without fail. If things continue......I hate to think how expensive an individual plan is. And this is what the right wing wants....more of the same.
The idea that the average working stiff can save money in a "Health Savings account" to cover medical expenses when a night in hospital costs $10,000 are nuts.
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The Doctor (#93), I don't know what the "average American" knows about the health care bills, but anyone who want to know can easily find out that it is the House bill as amended and passed by the Senate (H.R. 3590, now back in the House) and the House budget reconciliation bill (H. R. 4872, just reported out to the House) which are under consideration.
All of the information is there, in original form, or in summaries prepared by various news agencies or other entities. If some people are confused (some always will be), are those who are not supposed to wait forever?
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Andy Post (#94), OK, it does apply to US citizens, if determined to be unprivileged enemy belligerents. I expect that provision to be revised, either by the Senate or by the Supreme Court. We'll see what comes of it.
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87. At 7:42pm on 19 Mar 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
Ref 73, squirrelist
The reasons for opposition to the healthcare reform bill has nothing to do with its contents but with political opportunism, ideology, and special or personal interests.
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That is interesting, because the way I see it, those are the main reasons that people support ObamaCare. And it really is health care reform, since the delivery apparatus of health care is basically going to be the same. What Obama is attemtping is health insurance reform, i.e. figuring out how to pay for everyone to get insurance using the same overpriced, inefficient delivery system.
I have found that supporters of this "reform" are at least as uninformed as the examples you refer to; it goes both ways.
===
"Most of them don't know that the public option is no longer part of the bill, that the CBO announced healthcare reform will actually lower our budget deficits"
==
You see, people simply don't trust the government and the CBO numners, and rightfully so. The CBO has to go along with the assumptions that are in the bill, whether they are ever realized or not. For example, the Medicare cuts and the tax on "Cadillac" heatlh plans. The current congress is obviously too cowardly to have these take effect right now. So why would anyone think that they will be any less cowardly when these are to take effect in the future? Will congressmen get a sudden infusion of courage to go against their constituents, and a sudden aversion to accepting money from lobbyists, that they don't have now? Medicare cuts have been passed in previous laws, but they are routinely delayed year after year. There is no reason at all to trust that Congress will allow these cuts and the Cadillac tax increases to be encated. As for the public option, people see this as the first step in that direction. When ObamaCare ineveitably fails, the "solution" that the Dems will be pushing will be the public option, or even single payer.
Also, there are many elements of ObamaCare that are similar to what Massachusetts did ~5 years ago. And people are finally seeing the fatal flaws in that plan, and thus are rightly worried about imposing that on the entire nation.
To suggest that there are not significant substantive reasons to be against this bill is absurd, and rather ignorant.
This is the future of ObamaCare:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703625304575115691871093652.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h
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Andy Post (#94), I have just written to Senator Feinstein, who is on the Judiciary Committee, about this bill. I will report back what she has to say about it. My view is that US citizens should be turned over to the Justice Department.
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79. At 6:44pm on 19 Mar 2010, starFloridian wrote:
Kucinich gets a ride on Air Force One and is so overwhelmed by the honor that he changes his vote to a "yes". And the vote-buying goes on in the previously smoke-filled rooms, Pelosi, who has an approval rating of 3%, desperately trying to please her master in the White House with the 216 votes she needs. What a shambles they are making of democracy, ignoring the will of the majority OUTSIDE the Halls of Congress.
What is it you don't understand about losing an election Florida? You lost, you got your butts handed to you. You don't make the rules now, we do, The loser sits back and eats it... what is so hard to comprehend about that?
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92 frayedcat
A new infield won't cut it. How about new owners instead? 17 years and counting.
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#94 Andy Post
#100 GH1618
I think it's more likely that it will die in committee. I am more concerned that this was even brought up at all, with no consideration of the possible consequences on civil liberties. The intent to protect this nation is a noble one, and the true role of government- but, how can such serious legislators even think to propose such a staggering extension of executive power?
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Via-Media (#103), I don't think it's much of an extension. The main objective is to try aliens belligerents in military tribunals, or hold them outside the US, which is what the Bush administration was already doing. The Supreme Court has already given such persons access to federal courts, and required certain standards for military tribunals, but has not said that they must be tried in federal courts. This is mainly a response to the decision of Holder to bring whats-his-name into the US for a civilian trial.
It's fine by me if it dies in committee, or if it passes with certain revisions. Frankly, I'm not all that concerned about it.
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Re #104
The beauty of the decision is in the eye of Holder.
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I have to agree with the people of this state about the "Health Care Reform Bill" that is being "PUSHED" through (can you say rammed down our throats). Most people do not know the present laws cover many people who are not covered as they do net have the people help them get their needs met. The person who lost his job and needs to have nearly $500.00 dollars to pay for a medication would be able to get it if his doctor perscribed it and listed it as Life threatening treatment under Medicade.
Also if this person had inspected his tax laws he could have had a tax free investment set aside that would have paid for this easily.
The reform needs to be in the legal system and the hospital system which overcharge for their services to pay for programs that are designed to cover extreemly poor Americans and not Illegal border crossing people. These people cost the taxpayers more than they ever make up for inwhat they spend. They also have the ACLU helping them to get to stay despite the vastnumbers of them who are wanted murderers and drug dealers not only in their own countries, but also in this one. The system needs to be cleaned up and then it can do what it was supposed to do at the first.
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"The system needs to be cleaned up and then it can do what it was supposed to do at the first."
Yes, it can as long as We, The PEOPLE can.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FROM MY COLD HANDS!"
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Initially we saw the American students - arriving in Europe to take advantage of a free or almost-free education - courtesy of European taxpayers.
But now it is the turn of health - my ante-natal clinic in the UK was full of American women - coming over during their 3rd trimester to receive a natural birth on the cheap. We were 10 in the group and 7 were from the USA. Now I live in Germany and American pensioners are landing - keen to take advantage of cheap healthcare during their declining years. I met another couple only a fortnight ago in Leipzig.
I really think that this sort of health tourism should stop. American´s ought to pay for their treatment according to their own model and not creap over to Europe for a cheapy. This is particularly irksome because they are always so keen to criticise our culture, business, management etc. They hardly every bother to learn the language - but still try to ram it down everyones throat that they are the best. It is clear that the USA really are not world leaders. Their political system from what one can glean here is pretty much corrupt - as corrupt as anything you would find in any 3rd world country. And that is an insult - so apologies - to many of the latter. Education system - apart from the Ivy League big bucks - absolutely sucks. They are so proud of their teeth but forget the rest of their body. Their foreign policy - well let´s not call it that - most people still think Afghanistan is in Europe. We had a travel agent in our German conversation group (ex-USA) she didn´t even know where the Costa del Sol was!
So just pass your health bill - surprise yourself - you won´t have to dump people without health insurance out on the street. Now how would that fit with the good old American Dream!
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Wolf 101: Now I am POSITIVE that we will take back our country from the socialists in November. Harry Reid, at Obama's pep rally for his party today, just described Nancy Pelosi as the GREATEST EVER Speaker of the House!!!! Given Pelosi's approval rating, which makes Jimmy Carter's popularity ratings look like a love fest, I would hope that her performance since the free spenders took office will make many Obamaites like yourself think twice before filling in that little oval alongside the Democratic candidates in November. "Tip" O'Neill must be turning over in his grave at Reid's assessment of Pelosi's performance. Ever the consummate politician, even though he was a Democrat, "Tip" would have been disgusted with Pelosi's elevation to that powerful office, which she has managed to make such a charade of. By the way Wolf, I hope you have great health insurance - when we do finally find out just what is in that 2700 pages of socialism you might be happy if you do. And I AM content to wait for November, since your friends in DC will continue to make our case for a change back to a democratic form of government.
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"Given Pelosi's approval rating, which makes Jimmy Carter's popularity ratings look like a love fest"
You're kidding!
Nancy's ratings are Actually lower than that of the peanut farmer?
I dint't think it was at all possible.
How 'bout the senior senator from the great state of Nevada?
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Congress always has low approval ratings. It's traditional. Pelosi's individual approval rating actually is about twice that of Congress as a whole (which is about 16%). Her stock will go up a bit when the health care reform bill passes, I expect.
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111. At 4:19pm on 21 Mar 2010, GH1618 wrote:
Congress always has low approval ratings. It's traditional. Pelosi's individual approval rating actually is about twice that of Congress as a whole (which is about 16%). Her stock will go up a bit when the health care reform bill passes, I expect.
What Are you suggesting.That Nancy engaged in insider trading?
That is a scandelous accusation . Back it up.
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I knew you couldn't back that scandelous accusation up.
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