'Nothing costs Toyota more than a loss of trust'
Perhaps the meeting between Toyota's top bosses and members of Congress was never going to be easy.
Toyota's president has been on Capitol Hill for an awkward session filled with mutual misunderstandings, muttered consultations and lengthy translations.
The Japanese failed to give the committee much detail and when they tried to be nice, it backfired.
The head of North American operations attempted to gently correct a Congresswoman who said she wanted to buy American, but had chosen Toyota.
It was an American car, made by American workers, he said. "Are you blaming Americans?", she asked incredulously, totally missing the point he was trying to make. He made it again but didn't get a better result.
When Toyota president Akio Toyoda attempted to answer one part of a long-winded question, a Congressman spoke across the interpreter and demanded he answer another part.
Mr Toyoda's lengthy, formal apology didn't seem to make any impact.
What did emerge from a series of less than gripping exchanges was that the boss of Toyota didn't know about these problems until the end of last year and seemed unaware of what he called "the content" of a meeting at which the US Department of Transportation warned of the safety issues.
One Congressman said it felt like a "hanging before a trial". The atmosphere was one of mutual incomprehension, which may indeed be part of the wider problem.
But the most heartfelt words from a Toyota official came when the company's North American President, Yoshimi Inaba, was asked if there had been an instruction not to discuss liability for the fault. He denied that and said that "nothing costs Toyota more than loss of trust".
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~46~RS~)
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Toyota is more worthy of trust and a second chance than the current congress or GM Chrysler and the UAW.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
These hearings, which are influenced by politics, are a minor setback for TOYOTA, but it will not be long before the American public concludes that their cars are more reliable, fuel efficient, and cost effective than those offered by the competition.
This is not the first time we had mechanical, electrical or electronic problems affecting automobiles, and a major recall, and it will not be the last. The truth is that TOYOTA builds excellent cars and those who have owned one are very much aware of that.
TOYOTA will remain the number one auto maker in the world, and Honda, Nissan, Mazda and others will continue to dominate the market for years to come...with vigorous competition from South Korea.
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I drive a Toyota Corolla, purchased new 9 years ago. There have been a few dissatisfactions, but no major problems until this year which was related to engine operation and cost $800 for a "fix". I might have had a lot more problems with American cars. It also uses half as much gas [petrol] as the previous Chevy Lumina. I got a deal on this one, $8,000 plus my used Chevy [say $10,000 total for a brand new vehicle].
The problems are minor [as far as I am concerned]:
it is not as roomy nor as comfortable as the bigger Lumina
the floor space in front of the driver is actually cramped
the original wipers were not a good match to the windshield shape
[and have been replaced by non Toyota and fairly expensive ones]
a few other things not worth mentioning.
A major point in its favor, I felt that I was getting Japanese quality while helping American workers keep their jobs [even though KY or TN not Detroit].
Would I buy another one? Certainly not right now, and not until they get their act together.
Would I buy an American brand? At least I would consider it now whereas I wouldn't have before, and a Ford because they didn't ask for a bailout and they have been trying to once again get a "better idea."
Would I buy a Chinese car or one with many Chinese parts [which is hinted at as one of Toyota's problems]?
Not b----y likely as you Brits are supposed to say [at least in movies].
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The quality of US vehicles has improved in recent years, but the design, fuel and cost efficiencies remain as unappealing and questionable as ever. The biggest problem afflicting US automakers is the reputation they earned after decades of taking customers for granted and not adjusting to new needs or demands fast enough.
TOYOTA's problems are mild in comparison.
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Mr. Toyoda is between a rock and a hard place. As the man at the top the responsibility was his. Claiming ignorance makes him look like a weak or incompetent leader, trying to blame someone else will do the same since the man at the top is responsible for the actions and inactions of his subordinates and a true leader does not shirk that responsibility.
Congress isn't looking for apologies, they're grandstanding for the cameras and thinking how the footage will look at election time.
I expect the U.S. government (which owns a major stake tow of Toyota's competitors) to slap Toyota with a record fine for reckless indifference. And don't forget that Toyota, like other Japanese auto makers, built many of their plants in states that don't require workers to join a union and the United Auto Workers are strong supporters of Obama and the Democrats. As the saying goes, payback is a (rhymes with witch).
If Toyota is smart they will pay the fine promptly and put the incident behind them rather than appeal because taking it to court will give the Democrats' political allies in the American media more opportunities to tear at them and tarnish their once shiny image.
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I think Toyota is finished in the United States. Cars that accelerate out of control even when the transmission is put in reverse (Lexus), cars with brakes that fail, cars with serious steering problesm and the company's attitude was that it would try to ignore the whole thing, stonewall the customers, and now it is stonewalling the US Congress. It seems to many including some of those in Congress that Toyota actually doesn't really know what is wrong with those cars and can't be sure it has fixed the problem. Toyota is utterly unaware of and insensitive to America's consumer oriented culture. With so many alternatives on the market, why would anyone buy one?
This may be the worst consumer disaster since Coca Cola changed the formula of its main beverage Coca Cola original. Those who study marketing know that was the worst mistake in US corporate history. Nobody would buy their product until they restored it. This is much worse as people's lives are at stake. If more such crashes occur, it will be the last nails in Toyota's coffin. This is worse than the Edsel.
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All I have to say is that this reminds me of the Ford Pinto case.
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7. MarcusAureliusII:
"I think Toyota is finished in the United States."
***************
I don't think so. Too many loyal customers.
First time I got a good look at LaHood. Not impressed. He needs to contain his "rampages". Just what we need. Another politician on a crusade.
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What will drop faster, Toyota sales in the US or the Euro?
Between a Toyota and a Mercury Grand Marquis I'd take the Grand Marquis any day.
I rode in my bosses' Lexus. I liken my Mark VIII much better. I hope he doesn't get hurt or killed in his car. It's hard to groom good ones.
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There is no sound I can think of that is more disgusting than to hear Haley Barbour, the Governor of Mississippi defending Toyota in his thick Southern drawl. If it weren't for the large number of voters in Mississippi who work in Toyota plants, he'd likely be leading the charge against them. I can just see him now on a horse carrying a flag yelling; "The South Shall Rise Again!"
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#7 MAII "Toyota is utterly unaware of and insensitive to America's consumer oriented culture. With so many alternatives on the market, why would anyone buy one?"
It's amazing how wrong you can get when you're wearing your stars and striped themed blinkers. It's precisely because Toyota does understand what your average consumer wants (i.e. a product that jsut works) that it is currently able to sell so many cars in overseas markets.
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3, SaintD.
"These hearings, which are influenced by politics...."
Are we thinking the same thing, that the main purpose of bashing Toyota is to boost sales of American cars?
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Toyota just needs to refocus and keep it's nose to the grindstone! Time and a little humility will get it through this and American and Worldwide consumers will have faith.
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"Are we thinking the same thing, that the main purpose of bashing Toyota is to boost sales of American cars?"
To anyone who has driven American cars (including the Mercury Grand Marquis with 1970's engineering) and Toyotas, this is a no-brainer. - I for one would NEVER buy an American car again!
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My last 4 cars have been 2 GM and 2 Ford. Each were still running well and in very good condition when sold after being driven over 250,000 miles. I needed to replace the transmission on a Ford Taurus after 225,000 miles (sold it at over 330,000 miles). That has been the only major repair I have had to make.
The secret is to religiously change the oil every 2,500-3,000 miles; change the oil and air filter at each oil change; perform scheduled services on time (reason for the transmission failure); wash very regularly and wax at least twice a year with the new polymer waxes to 'feed' the paint and keep it conditioned.
Have not owned a Toyota, so could not say whether I could have done better with one of them.
I prefer Ford over GM.
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I am absolutely appalled by the level of anti-Americanism I've been reading lately.
This is an issue of public safety, but leave it to these people to turn it into an issue of national pride or conspiracy.
When we criticize Israel's handling of the conflict with the Palestinians, then are we also anti-Semites? No.
The why are we accused and crucified for our concerns over the safety of Toyota's cars which have caused death already?
Absolutely unbelievable.
> Swiss elevator and escalator maker Schindler felt Japan's wrath in 2006 when one of its elevators malfunctioned in a Tokyo condominium, killing a 16-year-old boy.
> The company initially said little publicly other than that an investigation was under way and that poor maintenance may have been to blame.
> By the time an executive flew into Tokyo to bow before the cameras, Japan had ordered a nationwide investigation of Schindler elevators and police had raided its Tokyo offices.
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American executives of Google were sentenced in absentia today by an Italian court for failing to take down offensive material on Youtube for two months until it was brought to their attention after which it was removed within two hours. By that logic, the executives of Toyota who knew for years there was a problem with what is being called "UA" for unintended acceleration because of complaints by many customers and by reports from Toyota mechanics and dealers in Europe but who did nothing resulting in the deaths in car accidents of Americans should be investigated, prosecuted, and sentenced to prison terms for what is called negligent homocide.
I've heard some people say that Toyota is being unfairly bashed because it is a Japanese car maker and the American government owns much of GM and 10% of Chrysler. I think exactly the opposite is true, many Americans have been reluctant to treat Toyota executives the same way they would treat American executives were they in the same circumstances because they are afraid of being accused of racial, ethnic, or nationalistic discrimination. Seeing Representative Geoff Davis of Florida use his time to question the Toyota executives instead make a speech praising them for the jobs they brought rather than condemn them for the indifference to the flaws in the manufacture or design of what turned out to be lethal machines was outrageous. It is clear American lawmakers and the American Presidents of the recent past have sold out Americans to foreign and multinational corporations as well as foreign governments and big business. Is it any wonder many Americans are angry and want to take their country back from the traitors who run both major political parties?
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#16 publiusdetroit, Oil changes every 2.5K miles, why not just rebuild your car after very journey? Given that kind of care, even a 1970s Austin Allegro might last as long as your Ford.
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Space adjutant at No. 17 - Are we reading the same posts? Where is the anti-Americanism you are 'appalled' by? You rightly say that the issue with Toyota being discussed is about public safety - and Toyota has responded to this positively by one of he largest recalls of vehicles ever. To criticise US products is not to be anti-American.
Those who say they would never buy either a Toyota, or conversely, an American breed of car, may be doing so for numerous reasons other than patriotism. Personal choice is a corner stone of the sort of democratic freedom Americans love. Which includes the right to buy the car that suits them and to criticise and comment on any and all products no matter where they come from. In fact, to accept that a substandard home produced item is better in some respect than a first rate foreign product is cutting off ones nose to spite ones face. We all rely on trade, both inward and out, to survive in the modern world. Surely no country who wants a powerful place in a peaceful thriving world can afford to hide behind the barriers of nationalism.
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Ref 18, Marcus
Geoff Davis represents Kentucky's 4th district. The Florida representative (from the district I live in) that delivered a populist was Mica who, not surprisingly, is running for re-election. I agree though, some of the speeches delivered yesterday were nauseating.
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publiusdetroit # 16
Thanks for the tips on car maintanance.
Very pleased with your success with American autos but I would suggest, like politicians, we are entering a new world age of mediocrity.
30 years of just US, British and German -all apparatuses or autos for my needs, but after many disappointments I moved over to buying Japanese. Their cars keep running. The hifi's sound and TV's picture is perfect , The cameras and professional business equipment give as sharp a result as the day they were made. But I question how long this will continue.
Past Japanese lifestyle was work eat sleep, work eat sleep, with work being the priority. -Worker ants in the mound building the product to the end point , almost like an old fashioned hand made article, with no time for anything else. Little wonder they showed the rest of the world what a quality product should be.
But times are a changing. Asian nations are discovering sport and a world outside, and so many of their present day products are now assembled abroad.[ Any here wishing to regard the latter as anti-American or anti-European, a slur on the respective manufacturing industries work forces around may do so. It is all a question of commitment and mentality] Henry Fords production line has a lot to answer for.
"The first rule of any technology used in a business is that automation applied to an efficient operation will magnify the efficiency. The second is that automation applied to an inefficient operation will magnify the inefficiency."
Bill Gates
Unfortunately Asian mentality is geered to prevail. Asian parents both encourage and demand their children accept the advantages of obtaining an education: That hitting the books promotes academic successes in the classroom, carrying on into later life resulting in achievement at any level they attain. We have become too lazy, bogged down with looking for the easy way out in everything. We are lagging behind in so many areas of previous greatness and excellence, but will it be us catching up or them levelling the playing field by immitating us?
Toyota will survive, but I am not crossing my fingers to expect a change from your or my side any decade soon, in us bettering our ways.
Even in advertising the product, they are beating us at are own game. Who needs clowns? Mr Royce and Mr Rolls Eat your heart out!
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Testimony by Akio Toyoda and the President of Toyota Motors of American showed them to be completely evasive refusing to answer any questions about what they knew and when they knew it. Toyoda said he didn't know anything about the UA problem until late 2009 and said he didn't know what the visit by a delegation from NHTSA to Tokyo earlier in the year to talk to Toyota executives was about. The President of Toyota Motors of America said he had only been with the firm a few days when the infamous internal confidential memo of last July in which Toyota executives congratulated each other on beating NHTSA and saving 100 million dollars a recall would have cost but admitted that except for a two year leave from Toyota, he'd been with the firm for 40 years. He said things might have changed to Toyota's corporate culture during those two years. Yeah, right.
Not only is Toyota's corporate culture which I think is typical of Japanese and many other foreign firms incompatable with American consumer rights culture, when it results in damages, injury, and death due to negligence, it is a violation of American criminal law, a serious felony of negligent homocide. Every victim of this callous indifference to human life for the sake of profits should be one more count in an indictment against Toyota's top management and against the service managers at Toyota dealerships who brushed aside the whole thing, often putting repairs to these defective vehicles brought to them by owners who noticed the defects before they were in accidents at the back of the line with other pending repairs. This is a criminal conspiracy if ever there was one. The question is why is the US government allowing these people to skate free? Were are the police? Where are the prosecutors? Where is the public outrage over NHTSA's failure every bit as incompetent and ineffective as the SEC was to investigate and prosecute Bernie Madoff? Small wonder so many Americans are furious at the size of government. If it isn't going to do its job anyway, why pay for it?
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NASA, which tries to develop a much faster propulsion system than =the current, chemical one should buy a licence from Toyota.
OIts cars accelerate fast without one even having to step on it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Corolla, go with the throttle up!
- Roger! go with a thro...
[expletive deleted] Houston! We have a problem!
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No electronic/software problem when there's no mechanical connection between a gas pedal and a fuel injector?
Mr. Toyoda, you've just made my day!. :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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re. # 18. At 11:50am on 25 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"American executives of Google were sentenced in absentia today by an Italian court for failing to take down offensive material on Youtube for two months until it was brought to their attention after which it was removed within two hours."
This is a very disturbing thing coming as it does from a western democracy. What Italy is saying is that the internet service provider is responsible for the content of whatever gets posted. It's like holding the Royal Mail responsible for the contents of every letter and parcel they deliver. This is inconsistent with the concept of free speech and with the internet being a conduit for the free distribution of ideas and communication. It starts out with the stated intent of protecting the public from smut but left unchecked it will coerce the ISPs into developing methods to censor content which will quickly be seized dupon by governments for their own uses. No government will be able to resist the temptation to start censoring internet content and online communications--for our own good they will no doubt tell us because after all, people in government are so much wiser than the rest of us and know what's best for us. Just ask them.
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Re. #7. MarcusAureliusII:
"I think Toyota is finished in the United States."
Never underestimate the power of a slick ad campaign combined with substantial discounts and incentives. Toyota is going to be less profitable in the American market in the short run but in two or three years it will all be forgotten. In fact, if the play their cards right it can work to their advantage as people will think "Hmmm, Toyota just went through a major shakeup in their safety and quality control, they may be ahead of the other auto makers in that regard right now."
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re. # 19. At 12:44pm on 25 Feb 2010, pciii wrote:
"#16 publiusdetroit, Oil changes every 2.5K miles, why not just rebuild your car after very journey? Given that kind of care, even a 1970s Austin Allegro might last as long as your Ford."
And why shouldn't it, given proper care? Publius is right, the leading cause of automobile breakdowns is lack of proper maintenance. There's more to owning a car than putting petrol in the tank. You can pay now for the preventive maintenance or you can pay later for major repairs. It amazes me that some people expect such a complicated and expensive mechanical device to run indefinitely without maintenance and it's a tribute to the car makers that they stand up to such neglect as well as they do.
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No one ever had any problems with Toyotas in the past- or at least not problems like this. I call the modern-day Toyota crisis the "Christine" syndrome, like Stephen King's book, where the car comes to life. It probably feels that way to some of the Toyota owners who have had their cars go out of control.
It is shame that people have died and been injured by the faulty Toyotas. My dad keeps saying, "Why didn't they put on the brake or go neutral?" but the truth is, when people panic, they don't always think. The vehicles should not have these problems in the first place.
Anyway, it is only more recently- the last five or ten years- that Toyota has lost its quality due to making their cars with faulty electronics. Electronics is clearly the problem.
Even the guy from Southern Illinois testified that he had tested the electronics and proved that this was the problem. If he found that, why couldn't Toyota? Or was it simply that they knew and didn't care?
Well, now, they are going to have to face up to what they have done. If Toyota wants to save their reputation, they have to clarify the electronic problem and make the adequate changes. Nothing else will do.
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LucyLucyLucy;
"It is shame that people have died and been injured by the faulty Toyotas. My dad keeps saying, "Why didn't they put on the brake or go neutral?"
The woman in the Lexus not only put the car in neutral, when that didn't work she put it in reverse and it still kept accelating. In any war between the brakes and the engine, the engine will win every time as it will burn the brakes to a cinder quickly. If you don't believe it, try driving with the emergeny brake on but be prepared for a hefty brake job afterwards.
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Switching off the ignition key might help decelerate the car by cutting off power to the spark plugs. Then applying the emergency break could help. It might be necessary to put the transmission in neutral or park to do this if there is an interlock. Akio Toyoda was insistent that there was no problem with the electronics. He said they could not simulate the failure. Nobody asked him how many times or how many mandays were devoted to the effort. Anyway you look at it, as of now, Toyota engineering and manufacturing stinks. Failure of brakes, steering, and accelerator control are critical systems upon which life can depend. Cutting costs to remain competitive may have been a factor. Lifecycle testing of components in thermal cycling chambers on a regular basis to determine lifespan and failure modes of critical parts may have been a step that was skipped. As one Congresman said, had aircraft had these kinds of problems, all planes of the model affected would have been grounded by the FAA until the problem was identified and fixed...we hope.
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"If you don't believe it, try driving with the emergeny brake on but be prepared for a hefty brake job afterwards." (from MarcusAurelius at #30)
This is misinformation from Marcus, who should know better. An emergency brake does not apply anywhere near 100% of the service brake stopping force. Most (in automobiles) operate on only two of the wheels, and then apply less force than the service brake on those wheels.
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LucyIllinois (#29) "No one ever had any problems with Toyotas in the past- or at least not problems like this."
Probably because electronic control of brakes and transmissions is relatively new technology.
"My dad keeps saying, "Why didn't they put on the brake or go neutral?"
Why do you assume that the brakes were not applied? In some of these incidents, it is known that the operator attempted to brake. Did Mrs. Smith testify that she did not brake?
Do you assume that a transmission with electronic controls would necessarily shift into neutral whenever "N" is selected by the operator? The shifts take place when the transmission control system decides, based on not only the selector position, but other factors. It may be that the transmission won't shift into neutral at high speed. I expect that a shift into reverse would not take place with the vehicle moving forward at high speed.
I like my stick shift. When I move the lever to neutral, the transmission is definitely disengaged.
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Post 28 Scott0962.
"Even a 1970s`Austin Allegro might last as long as your ford"
Scott,only if the Ford was 20years old & with 250,000 miles on the clock.
I would not wish an Allegro on MarcusAurelius,Hmmmm then again!
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MarcusAurelius,
I do think you are being a little hysterical,all over a sticking throttle,
boy,over here we drive on the left, using a gear lever,(stick shift)at speeds that would seem suicidal to the average American & have the lowest
fatality rates,I just have to say,we British are superior at driving,go on
admit it!.
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LucyIllinois # 29,
Apart from Toyota correcting what mechanical faults are emerging I would also suggest from my limited experience to all the auto manufacturing giants-
1 Adjustment of American driving tests and design- Europe is mainly stick shift and although it will ruin the motor changing down the gears, would probably slow one down sufficiently to use foot and handbrake. Bring back the stick. Comfort kills
2 Remove telephone access except to specific emergency personel. Hand held and bluetooth wireless connection conversations are not inducive to concentration.- Telephones kill
3 Remove radio, CD players.etc -Falling asleep from soothing music or finding tapes,channels or CDs etc can kill.
4 Remove the internal and vanity mirrors enclosed in the sunshades.- Adjusting ones make up, or ladies having deep conversations with a girlfriend in the back seat while driving is not on. Conspiracy kills.
5 Remove the cigar lighter and ashtray. Avoiding fallen hot cigar ends kills
6 Remove beaker holders and suchlike- Drinking while driving kills.
6 No more tea-making extras included for Republicans. Being Republican kills. [bills].
7 Penalise those with stickers, dolls and all hanging good luck charms in front and back windows restricting vision. Blindness kills.
8 Anybody wearing a hat, baseball cap, flat cap, Derby or Stetson should take a weekly driving and psychiatric test. Fashion kills.
9 Remove all those little lockers for sweets, gum, change, maps etc. Searching kills.
10 Pre flight health check- Sneezing and coughing while driving kills.
11 Secure babies, children under 7 years and elderly relations to the roof-rack- Stress kills.
12 Make the horn, wiper, and lighting switches in one standard place. -Irritation and accidental use kills
I am sure I missed a few pointers, but with these simple adjustments driving with other motorists would become a pleasure once more.
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MarcusAurelius at #30
"Toyota engineering and manufacturing stinks"
"The woman in the Lexus not only put the car in neutral, when that didn't work she put it in reverse and it still kept accelerating. In any war between the brakes and the engine, the engine will win every time"
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, Toyota engineering and manufacturing is second to none. Any fault with the current models is a design fault that did not show up in testing. In regards to your other comments you are obviously misinformed. A car cannot accelerate in neutral because the transmission is not engaged and a car certainly cannot accelerate in reverse unless it accelerates backwards. Modern brakes are also designed to stop a car with the throttle open and the brake on if they are applied firmly and not released. Your brakes will only burn up if applied partially or not held until stop. Though if you perform this maneuver you probably will need new brakes afterward.
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ukawailee;
You've never lived until you've been in a quarter mile backup behind someone from a foreign country driving 40 mph on an interstate highway and everyone trying to cut around him or her. There are people on our highways who may have never driven before coming here in their lives. I wouldn't know if drivers elsewhere are safer. You can get all of the data related to US automobile accident rates from government web sites. I think typical is 42,000 fatlities and about 2 million injuries a year. Take the number of passenger miles driven per year into account when you do your computations. I think the average American driver racks up about 12,000 miles a year. With trucks and busses, there are probably over 200 million motor vehicles on our roads, maybe much more.
My Mark VIII has over 155,000 miles on it and drives great. all of the major components in the power train are still in excellent condition. I change the oil every 3000 miles and have the rest of the car including the tramsmission and radiator serviced according to Ford's recommended intervals. Repair and replacement are due to usual wear an tear. For example I needed a new alternator for the first time about 3,000 miles ago. Batteries and tire replacements are as expected. I no longer buy high end Michelins anymore, they are not worth the extra cost IMO.
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I meant to put, "Why don't the drivers go neutral or turn off the engine?" Not the brake bit. That just slipped in there.
I don't understand why the neutral wouldn't work, because that would mean the car is in no gears.
But the best thing to do would be to simply turn the engine off. That could blow up the motor or cause major damage, but at least the car would not just continually accelerate.
This is obviously an electronic problem. There is something off.
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LucyIllinois (#39) "I don't understand why the neutral wouldn't work, because that would mean the car is in no gears."
In a car with an automatic transmission and an electronic transmission control computer, the gear selector does not shift gears. It merely indicates to the computer the gear which the operator desires. There would be other signals, such as transmission speed, which might be taken into account. Then there is the possibility that the electric signals are hosed up so the system is not working properly. All this is hypothetical; we don't know why shifting to neutral in the case of the Mrs. Smith incident was not sufficient.
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Informed (#37) "Modern brakes are also designed to stop a car with the throttle open and the brake on if they are applied firmly and not released. Your brakes will only burn up if applied partially or not held until stop."
There is another possibility which has occurred to me, which might explain why in some cases it was reported that the brakes were destroyed. If the vehicle had an electronic brake control system which was not operating properly, so that the service brake was not working, the driver might apply the "emergency" (actually, parking) brake as a last resort. If this engaged, it would probably not be sufficient to stop a vehicle under power without damaging the brakes.
There is never complete information in news accounts of incidents.
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Informed (#37) ... Toyota engineering and manufacturing is second to none."
This is merely opinion, not objective fact, but in any case it misses the point. Any engineering group designing complex systems can introduce weaknesses in a design not realizing their significance until an incident happens. Consider the Space Shuttle, for example, which had a lot of expert engineering in its design, but a couple of fatal weaknesses.
Toyota has been a leader in brake-by-wire (non-hydraulic) systems. This might be taken as an indication that Toyota's engineering leads the industry, provided that the system is fail-safe under all possible faults. The question is, did a fault in the braking system lead to an inability to stop the vehicle in an emergency? Resorting to platitudes will not answer the question.
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So I guess the best thing to do if your Toyota accelerates out of control is to turn the car off???
Bad news if you have an automatic car ignition switch, but I don't know if Toyota does have that or not. (where you just press a button to start the car.) That would be insane if your car accelerated and you couldn't even turn it off-what a nightmare scenario.)
You would think with techonology things would be improving, but at times, they can be too complicated to function.
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One difference between Toyota and US manufacturers is that Toyota can afford the recalls that most US manufacturers can not. It is very revealing to see a table of all complaints received by NHTSA - and then ask why only Toyota are being dragged through the mud. It seems like a coordinated attack on Toyota is underway to protect market share for American car makers.
If you look at the data, it's easy to say that Toyota has a higher number of complaints specific to sudden acceleration than other manufacturers. However, these figures aren't weighted per sales. With almost 18% of the US market for 2009, Toyota sells a lot of cars.
Cut the data another way: number of complaints (of any kind) per vehicle and Toyota is down at 17th out of 20 manufacturers.
Notwithstanding the serious nature of these complaints, it still appears that Toyota are being singled out for political gain. Ford had 387 similar complaints, but I haven't seen anything about it.
Paraphrasing and reading between the lines of the head of NHTSA in a recent grilling: "We realize that the backhanders now have to stop and that we have overlooked serious issues for years. But now that it's politically savvy, we're gonna throw the book at the biggest competition to US manufacturers." (sic.)
These guys are none of them saints; however, it seems that the only company actively addressing the issues is being singled out for all the slings and arrows.
I don't drive a Toyota, they haven't made a good looking car since ... actually, they have never made a good looking car. But I once had a sticky gas-pedal in a Fiat. Luckily, or maybe by design, the engine was so weak that it didn't really affect the braking.
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Fortantely, I don't drive a Toyota, although I have friends that do. My car is the tried and true Pontiac. Although the brand Pontiac was phased out, there are still many Pontiacs on the road, as they have been popular for years. My Pontiac is a pretty good car.
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Lucyillinois
If you depress the start button and hold for 3 seconds it will shut the car off. People are not informed of this feature but it is there. Beware if you shut the car off your brakes won't work. I hope you never end up in this situation, but if you do now you know.
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LucyIllinois (#43) "Bad news if you have an automatic car ignition switch, but I don't know if Toyota does have that or not. (where you just press a button to start the car.) That would be insane if your car accelerated and you couldn't even turn it off-what a nightmare scenario.)"
Vehicles which have push-button start are turned off by depressing and holding the button for a few seconds. It has been reported that the delay for Toyota is about three seconds.
I expect many people with this feature are not aware of the procedure for turning it off, and three seconds is a long time if the car is accelerating and the driver is struggling to control it.
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KevFirst (#44) "It seems like a coordinated attack on Toyota is underway to protect market share for American car makers."
You are making a rather serious accusation out of thin air, with nothing at all to back it up.
Toyota has had more of these incidents than other automakers, and quite a few of them have resulted in fatalaties. That is why they are being investigated.
"... these figures aren't weighted per sales."
Wrong. This is another accusation made off the top of your head. Do you suppose that you are the only person smart enough to know the importance of taking into account market share? Have you read anything at all on this subject?
Here is a good place to start, with an article on the Consumer Reports study:
Christopher Jensen in The New York Times
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Ma2
Marky,why change the oil at 3000miles?thats some what premature, by using
shell oils that oil change could stretch to 6000 with no less protection.
If you bought an European car 9 to 12000 miles is the norm.It has not escaped my attention Marky that any thing European may not quite fit the bill,this is a great pity,as European cars totally and I mean totally out class American vehicles.To gain a good 0to60mph you guys just add cubic inches, with the fuel gulp suffering,& as for cornering in an American car at speed,well!!a high speed dairy cow comes to mind with udders swinging one way & head & tongue sticking out the other.This poor performance is just no good over here as most of the roads in Wales go around things that used to be there.No grid system over here my lad,except Milford Haven which does,set up by Quaker whalers, who you guys kicked out, it has a Nantucket avenue as well but I digress.Any quality European sports car will out accelerate,out road hold,out corner all US sports cars with the engine at least half the cubic capacity..
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MAII "I change the oil every 3000 miles"
publiusdetroit "Oil changes every 2.5K miles"
It now becomes clear why the USA consumes so much oil, it's because they're all changing the oil in their vast cars 3 or 4 more times more than they have to.
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Informed (#46) "Beware if you shut the car off your brakes won't work."
If this is literally true, as in won't work at all, this is a very good reason never to buy a vehicle with brake-by-wire. With power-assisted hydraulic brakes, loss of engine power makes braking somewhat more difficult, but certainly not impossible.
A few years ago I was driving at highway speed and experience total loss of electric power. Everything electric stopped working. I steered to the shoulder and braked without incident, because loss of power assist is not critical. I would like to know what happens in a vehicle with brake-by-wire when all electric power is lost.
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Uninformed;
"A car cannot accelerate in neutral because the transmission is not engaged and a car certainly cannot accelerate in reverse unless it accelerates backwards. Modern brakes are also designed to stop a car with the throttle open and the brake on if they are applied firmly and not released. Your brakes will only burn up if applied partially or not held until stop. Though if you perform this maneuver you probably will need new brakes afterward."
Sooner or later when you drive a car, you have to engage its gears. That is when some Toyotas accelerated out of control. At that point putting the stick in neutral or reverse did nothing to disengage the engine from forward gears, the electronics precluded it.
A Lexus has an engine well over 200 bhp, sometimes over 300. The brakes cannot overcome the engine revving to full throttle. They are not designed for it. They are designed to slow the car to a stop when the accelerator is released. Even then stopping time is much slower than acceleration time for the same speed say 11 or 12 seconds for starting at 60 mph and coming to a stop as opposed to 7 or 8 seconds to accelerate from a stop to the same speed. This alone proves the engine is more powerful than the brakes.
ukawailee;
"I do think you are being a little hysterical,all over a sticking throttle"
Not when it is more than a one time freak accident where they become out of control missiles weighing thousands of pounds that will kill all of its occupants and anyone unlucky enough to be in its path.
waterballoon;
We are not going to change our driving habits because Toyota forgot how to build a car that is safe to operate. The laws and recommendations for driving assume safe sober drivers in cars that are safe to operate. If Toyota cannot or will not meet that criteria, it will not be permitted to sell cars in the United States any longer. We don't just allow anything on the public roads because it can move.
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ukwales (#49) "Any quality European sports car will out accelerate,out road hold,out corner all US sports cars with the engine at least half the cubic capacity."
"All"? There are no US sports cars, alas. The Corvette is the classic, but for a long time it has been an expensive and muscle-bound monstrosity sold mainly to wealthy doctors and such who couldn't afford one when they were young.
Ford tried to revive the Thunderbird as a sports car, but it only came with a V8 and wasn't that special in the handling department. Seen mostly in the better suburbs, probably driven by the doctor's wives.
Pontiac/Saturn/Opel tried to revive the Opel GT to compete with the Mazda Miata, which has been the popular sports car in the US for quite awhile. After a few years of less than spectacular sales, it too is gone.
I used to like the Austin Healey 3000, but you couldn't give me one now. I don't want the trouble and expense of owning a classic British sports car.
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I misspoke. I don't know that the brakes won't work at all, I should have said that they won't work very well. I too would be interested to know how the brakes work when the ignition s off.
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As oil is circulated through the engine, it collects microscopic particles of metal that will pass through the oil filter. Changing oil every 3000 miles extends the life of the engine by removing these particles. The reason Shell can be used for 6000 miles and Mobil One can be used for 15,000 miles is that the oil won't break down chemically as quickly from engine heat and retains its viscousity. IMO that is not good enough.
I've driven European cars and I don't like them. If I had to buy a foreign car, it would probably be an Acura Legend TL or something of that type. Service on European cars in America is usually much too expensve and unless you live in large Metro areas, there aren't that many people who can service them. Parts are not as readily available. Many European cars are not suitable for American roads and are not allowed here. Those that are allowed are sometimes special export versions that meet American requirements. I will never own a European car, I've never owned a foreign car. If I needed a new car now I don't know what I'd buy. Maybe a Ford Taurus SHO or the Mercury equivalent. The turbo charged engine gives a lot of bang for the buck.
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Informed (#54) "I too would be interested to know how the brakes work when the ignition s off."
Ignition off is a normal condition which the engineers would consider. I want to know what happens in abnormal circumstances, including total electric failure.
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post 53 Gh1618
Yes any with British sports car you would need to be a real enthusiast,they
did not call the electrical maker on all British cars Lucas,the prince of darkness for nothing.I think the last hand built true British sports car maker is Morgan with its never changed 40s`style but again its only for enthusiasts.Please take my comment re US cars with a large pinch of salt,I was only Marky baiting,I should know better,but I can not help my self,its a cold dark wet evening here in Wales with nothing on the TV.
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ukwales (#57), there seems to be a nice AC Ace-Bristol for sale nearby. That might be worth the trouble, if not the price (a lot!).
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If you guys lived in the UK the best all round medium size car for,fuel economy,road holding,low cost maintenance,with excellent comfort is the Ford focus,it does 62 mpg & 0to60 in just over 10 seconds all with a 1.6 diesel.VW golf was the one to beat but its so costly & not as durable as they used to be.Right no more blogging,must start new book..
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GH1618: "You are making a rather serious accusation out of thin air, with nothing at all to back it up."
Hmm, since I know what I have read and you don't: let's start off with a "right back at yer".
I read the Edmunds Report. This is how it works: you read an article that references a detailed report. You then go read the report. Rarely does the article make much sense after this.
Benjamin Disraeli: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Within the above article Toyota come top of the pile and then 17/20 for complaints depending on the slant taken. In the hands of a skillful politician / or newspaper editor, the same data can be (mis-)represented to say whatever point you wish to make.
Here's a quote from the Washington Post: "Toyota is getting a lot of attention for sudden unintended acceleration, but Ford Motor Co. has been the subject of more complaints with federal regulators in the recent past. From 2004 to 2009, based on NHTSA data, Ford had 2,806 complaints, compared with Toyota's 2,515. General Motors Co. had 1,192. A study by Edmunds.com, an independent market-research Web site, found that based on the number of vehicles on the road, Toyota ranked 17th in recalls."
Again, it's misleading.
Here's a quote from your article: "“What really stood out to me is – and this isn’t I guess surprising — that Toyota is not the only one that has these problems,” said Jeff Bartlett, deputy online autos editor for Consumer Reports. “I know a lot of attention has been on Toyota and whatever the causes are and they may be unique to their product, but they are not unique in having these types of problems.”"
There it is, hoist by your own petard. Other manufacturers also have the same problem, but no recall, no investigation and no hand-washing from NHTSA.
A quick Google search of "ford unintended acceleration recall" brings up nothing about any Ford recall, only Toyota; although Ford (per your article) accounts for 28% of all complaints relating to sudden acceleration. That, in itself, would indicate a witch-hunt.
Once the numbers start flying, you can do one of three things:
Believe what you read in someone else's analysis (stupid).
Take the source data and do your own analysis (time consuming).
Take it all with a pinch of salt and look for tell-tales signs that you're not getting an unbiased view (cheap and almost 100% accurate).
You seem to have taken offense, as if I were implying that there is no problem. There clearly is a problem. But it's bigger than just Toyota, it involves several manufacturers and the failure of NHTSA to investigate properly; then when they do investigate, they only target what is politically opportune.
All this at a time when US manufacturers are dying and Toyota has been taking larger market share progressively. Does that have no bearing on the matter to you? This approach neatly steps around the free trade agreements, kills Toyota's sales and improves US manufacturer's sales - and there's not a thing they can do about it. One of the most reliable auto manufacturers ever is kicked out of the US market based on some pretty dubious analysis by the same group that locks the new Euro-Diesels out due to "high emissions" (but that's another report you'll never actually read I suppose).
The system is being gamed my friend. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact of reality. American politicians (bless 'em) will lie their teeth out to protect US interests, as long as those interests fund their next election campaign.
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Uninformed;
"I misspoke. I don't know that the brakes won't work at all, I should have said that they won't work very well. I too would be interested to know how the brakes work when the ignition s off."
On American cars I am familiar with, when the power brake assist fails, you can stop the car by exerting a lot of pressure on the brake pedal. It is a hydraulic system, at least the ones I knew about. I had a high pressure hose fail once many years ago and that was my experience.
ukawailee, to keep British cars operating properly takes a special talent, the ability to drive and tune the engine at the same time. If you can do that, you can actually make it around the block without the engine going out of tune. Jaguars in particular were noted for that before Ford took the company over and fixed it. I think some of those Jaguar power trains were actually similar to Lincoln platforms although the last ones, the V10 or V12 clearly weren't.
Most cars I saw on European roads were not exported to the US. Ths was true even for high end manufacturers. For example, the Mercedes 140D widely used as a taxicab in Europe was not available in the US. The Checker Marathon made in America was similar in many ways but it has been extinct for a long time.
We occasionally see a Morgan Mini Cooper usually driven locally. I'd hate to be in an accident on one on the highway. The odds of surviving a crash in one don't look encouraging.
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kevfirst (#60) "Toyota ranked 17th in recalls."
Recalls are not the issue. At issue are particularly serious problems of unintended acceleration and inability to brake, which can lead to serious injury or death. That is why the Consumer Reports study filtered out the important incidents.
Toyota has about one-third more cases of unintended acceleration than Ford in the CR study. Ford is a strong second, but the most important fact is that there are more than 30 deaths associated with the Toyota incidents over the past decade, and there is evidence being presented that Toyota has not taken the matter seriously. Congress is doing the proper thing by questioning Toyota about these incidents and their response to them.
If there are also deaths associated with the Ford cases, they should also be questioned. Perhaps they should be anyway, and perhaps they will be. Congress has no duty to call in everybody at once. But I don't believe Ford uses pure brake-by-wire, although they have hybrid regenerative/hydraulic systems which have had problems. Have any deaths been attributed to failure of these systems?
"There clearly is a problem. But it's bigger than just Toyota, it involves several manufacturers ..."
I will agree with that, to some extent. The problem is the development of brake-by-wire systems with insufficient oversight and without standards which require fail-safe braking under all conceivable failure modes. If Toyota is leading other automakers in having problems with these systems, it is because they are leading in producing them.
"It's not a conspiracy theory, ..."
Yes, it is. Some people look for conspiracies wherever they can find them, and if they can't find them, they make them up. I subscribe to Occam's razor: do not multiply hypotheses beyond necessity. The simplest explanation for Congress having called Toyota on the carpet is that it appears that many fatal accidents may have been caused by a defect in Toyota's products, and that Toyota has not taken the matter seriously. Those who wish to make a conspiracy hypothesis have the burden of supporting it. I have no need to refute it, because it is not necessary to explain the handling of this case by the Congress.
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MarcusAureliusII (#61) "On American cars I am familiar with, when the power brake assist fails, you can stop the car by exerting a lot of pressure on the brake pedal. It is a hydraulic system, ..."
Yes, but the interesting question today is what is the behavior of brake-by-wire braking systems which have no direct mechanical/hydraulic connection between the brake pedal and the brakes, under various fault conditions?
Toyota seems to have used such systems in current models, and I have provided a link to a Toyota document describing their system (in the other thread, I think).
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Marcus, does being wrong so consistently give you some kind of pleasure?
"As oil is circulated through the engine, it collects microscopic particles of metal that will pass through the oil filter. Changing oil every 3000 miles extends the life of the engine by removing these particles. The reason Shell can be used for 6000 miles and Mobil One can be used for 15,000 miles is that the oil won't break down chemically as quickly from engine heat and retains its viscousity. IMO that is not good enough. "
Perhaps you might want to read this, written by one of your countrymen (who happens to be educated and open-minded):
http://skepticblog.org/2009/02/22/oilchange-rant/
You might also ask why the rest of the world has been running longer intervals for years.
"Many European cars are not suitable for American roads and are not allowed here. Those that are allowed are sometimes special export versions that meet American requirements."
NOT TRUE. Every market has it's own requirements. The USA is no special case.
"We occasionally see a Morgan Mini Cooper usually driven locally. I'd hate to be in an accident on one on the highway. The odds of surviving a crash in one don't look encouraging."
Even a fool can glance over the crash test results and see the MINI (Morgan? What?) is a safe car. We also know that big advances in safety have been made over recent years, so for example a large car from 2003 might well be less safe than a good modern small one like the MINI. Add that to the fact that the MIN will actually steer out of an accident far easier than an old barge, and I know which I'd rather have.
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Marcus, does being wrong so consistently give you some kind of pleasure?
"As oil is circulated through the engine, it collects microscopic particles of metal that will pass through the oil filter. Changing oil every 3000 miles extends the life of the engine by removing these particles. The reason Shell can be used for 6000 miles and Mobil One can be used for 15,000 miles is that the oil won't break down chemically as quickly from engine heat and retains its viscousity. IMO that is not good enough. "
Perhaps you might want to read this, written by one of your countrymen (who happens to be educated and open-minded):
http://skepticblog.org/2009/02/22/oilchange-rant/
You might also ask why the rest of the world has been running longer intervals for years.
"Many European cars are not suitable for American roads and are not allowed here. Those that are allowed are sometimes special export versions that meet American requirements."
NOT TRUE. Every market has it's own requirements. The USA is no special case.
"We occasionally see a Morgan Mini Cooper usually driven locally. I'd hate to be in an accident on one on the highway. The odds of surviving a crash in one don't look encouraging."
Even a fool can glance over the crash test results and see the MINI (Morgan? What?) is a safe car. We also know that big advances in safety have been made over recent years, so for example a large car from 2003 might well be less safe than a good modern small one like the MINI. Add that to the fact that the MIN will actually steer out of an accident far easier than an old barge, and I know which I'd rather have.
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MarcusAureliusII # 52
I am sorry that mentioning beaker holders touched a nerve, [or was it the tea remark] and found it heartwarming that you should spring to the defence of USA motor manufacturers. Playing the blame game and ignoring the myriad of USA recalls want wash. But then playing the blame game and taking on the mantle of victim seems to be an 'Independent' trait here on many levels. Where are all the Republicans that used to post I wonder?
Drinking and driving does not necessarily mean alcohol.
A can of cola before one's nose also restricts vision but you obviously have more experience with suckling on a 1990 Haut-Médoc while at the wheel, [Waterford crystal glasses too I hope] as you navigate your American 'ship' through the city to reach port, though knowing you of old I expect you just bite the neck off the bottle.
"Waterballoon" now amongst other negative names for me and others responding? Insults at 10 paces eh?
If I was of mind to enter this childish game I could have addressed my reply to 'MucousColitis II' but thought the better of it, despite the similarities.- Common disorder. Abnormal. Pain. Verbal diarrhea. Causes discomfort. Alternative name -irritable vowel syndrome. The cap does fit so it must be you Marcus, but then far be it from me to suggest such a comparison.
Still, all in all where would this blog be without some here tilting at windmills.
Keep your fingers crossed Chuck. One of these days I am sure Jackforge will return and you can begin WW 8- How far along were you in saving our world from those blessed 'foreigners' and their products?
Always pleasing to read 'Civil' Wars on the blog, since fighting your fellow Americans has become the only one you have won on your own these last 150 years.
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The age of aquarius ended in the 70s.
And not because of water-boarding.
Although an "Invasion of Living Dead" seems to be going on strong, still.
And a poor, worn-out fox still cannot get over those sour grapes.
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36. At 6:34pm on 25 Feb 2010, watermanaquarius wrote:
“3 Remove radio, CD players .etc -Falling asleep from soothing music or finding tapes, channels or CDs etc can kill.”
I listen to bagpipe music, primarily, and other military marches, very occasionally stirring pieces from Wagner. You might be able to fall asleep with that, but few people would. I don’t change CD’s when driving and my MP3 player hook-up lasts longer than I would ever need.
I was taught that the radio was a safety device because it could provide stimulating input or just noise to keep one alert, focused or angry. I agree with many of your points and find all of them amusing.
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