Chicago: Black voters discuss Obama
Antonio's scissors click and clack across the top of my head. I've decided the Obama cut ($21) wouldn't do anything for me. I am content to have a regular trim in the Hyde Park Hair Salon in Chicago, a virtual shrine to its most famous customer. I'm sitting at the front, opposite the very barber's chair where Obama used to sit: it is now enclosed in a glass case. Above it hangs a large painting of the man himself in the chair.
"He's one of those guys who come in and hang out. When you come in a barber's shop, it's a manly camaraderie sort of thing, and he fits right in. None of that 'Be quiet, he's come in'," says Antonio. He jokes that like all presidents, Obama has gone grey in office.
And he admits that, a year since the president moved into the White House, the economy doesn't feel much better:
"I don't think so. I don't feel the effects, but a lot of my clients are losing their jobs, a lot have moved away, trying to find something else. But I don't put the blame on Obama, I put it on the previous administration. It takes a long while to clean out a closet, and that's what he's doing. By the time we start feeling the effects of President Obama and what he wanted to do, he'll be out of office. It takes a while."
Other customers seem to agree. Monday is Martin Luther King Day and I've been in Chicago, in part, to find out how black Americans feel the president has done, almost a year on. The pride in a role model who isn't a rapper or an athlete is as strong as ever. Those being shaved and shorn don't reflect the sort of discontent reflected in the opinion polls.
One customer continues with the image of politics as hygiene:
"A lot of work left to do. It's like cleaning up after someone threw a party in your house. It's pretty easy to mess up a house, it's a lot harder to get it back into order. It's obvious the president before him disrupted things and made a mess, and Obama has the job of mopping, washing, cleaning."
One man is not entirely happy:
"A little concern. The health care plan he's put forth - in a perfect society, it would work out. But there's a lot of that he's trying to do that's kind of aggressive, and I am not sure its going to pan out in his favour. But I hope it does."
Another urges patience:
"He's doing okay, real good. It takes a little time, but he's coming along. The economy is still struggling - but a couple of years, and it'll be back on track."
Few African-Americans have a really harsh word to say about Obama as a man; of course, some don't share his politics. I travel to the other side of town in the evening where a bar is hosting a get-together for Young Republicans.
The only black face I see here is that of Issac Hayes. Not the musician, although this Mr Hayes may also be famous one day. He is running for Congress, and his party has set him something of a mission impossible: taking Illinois District 2 from Jesse Jackson Junior. He tells me:
"He brought inspiration, him and his family, to the White House. I am proud to have a black president - America is proud, but that's not the issue. He's brought change, but it's not the right kind of change. He's allowed the left to pull him off his campaign promise to work with both sides of the aisle. I don't think he believes in American exceptionalism: he's been on an apology tour round the world, and I don't agree with that."
Mr Hayes says that the poor in the area he wants to represent have not been helped by Democratic Party politics.
"They would be better with a conservative in the White House and a conservative in Congress. The district has a 98% poverty rate. Allowing people to have more money in their pockets is the first important thing and then when business has more money they can put people to work. George Bush, when he had a recession, he cut taxes and created five million jobs, that's what he wants to do."
As Obama approaches a year in office, the mass media is and will be full of check lists of promises kept and targets achieved, but what struck me in Chicago is that most people had rather less frenetic expectations.
In a country that demands instant gratification in politics as in everything else, the African-Americans I spoke to repeated that change can't happen overnight.
Reverend Leon Finney has worked in the poorer parts of Chicago for a good while. He not only founded the Metropolitan Apostolic Community Church but heads up The Woodlawn Organisation (TWO).
He goes way back with the man who is now president. He first knew Barack Obama when he became a community organiser, then worked with him as a lawyer and supported him as he moved first onto the local political stage and then went national.
Dr Finney tells me that speaking as one of Jesse Jackson's campaign managers in 1988, he thinks it is a minor miracle that Obama made it to the White House at all.
He admits that in this area there's been little tangible change.
"We have a nation that wanted to see change overnight as if you could flick the telly with the remote control and all of a sudden there is change. It's not going to happen. It didn't happen."
But, he says, because of their history, black Americans are patient.
"We are very proud. We are elated. Maybe, somewhat underemployed and unemployed still, but we have a lot of hope. You have to remember more than any other ethnic group the African-American population has learned to live with hardship and survive the harshest of situations. 'Last hired, first fired' is nothing new for the African-American community. My sense is that we are used to the rigours and better able to adapt and less frightened (by the recession) than our brothers and sisters of different colours."
The day before his murder, Martin Luther King said he had been allowed to go to the top of the mountain and glimpsed the promised land. Much of what I heard in Chicago echoes that leader's belief in slow but inexorable progress.
PS: An earlier version of this post appeared with the last half missing - apologies for the error.
Tomorrow: discontent with the president.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~55~RS~)
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Perhaps some of our regular contributors should get their hair cut more often? (Or go to a different barber shop so they can listen to a different tune for once?)
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What an interesting perspective from a racial group which voted for Pres. Obama by 99%; this is not wholy unheard of given the support Kennedy had as the first (and only) Catholic Pres. As a Louisianian I am also familiar with racial and socio-economic politics, and much of what I read here is exactly what I hear down here.
On the individual who was quoted as saying.."I don't put the blame on Obama, I put it on the previous administration", I say that no President really ever has any control over which direction the economy turns. It's really more about appearances and public perception. This is not always the case(FDR)but rarely does government involvement do anything other than slow growth or economic decline.
On the person who was quoted as saying.."But there's a lot of that he's trying to do that's kind of aggressive, and I am not sure its going to pan out in his favour", I agree completely regardless of this person's political persuasion.
As for Issac Hayes, the GOP needs more people like him if they are going to continue to be a viable major party in the furture, especially in the south; thankfully it appears that more individuals are breaking out of the Democratic mold so to speak in my state at least. Many of us have already figured out that centuries of one party rule (Democratic rule) only breeds corruption and contempt among those elected...more so than normal at least. People need to vote with the issues, not with their skin color-though I usually excuse those who vote for historic firsts.
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(The other) Isaac Hayes: "he's been on an apology tour round the world" . . .And I thought MagicK had invented that all by himself and hadn't just nicked it from Republican propaganda. I am disappointed.
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2. At 10:09am on 18 Jan 2010, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:
"Many of us have already figured out that centuries of one party rule (Democratic rule) only breeds corruption and contempt among those elected. . ."
Eh? For one thing, how many centuries? And for another, I think you will find the majority of administrations after Lincoln in 1861 had Republican majorities in the Congress.
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Since MLK believed in judging people by the content of the character not the color of their skin. Perhaps you should also go to a rural conservative area for their views on Obama.
And oh squrilest perhaps the barber needs to talk to some non african americans and not be so insular
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5. At 11:14am on 18 Jan 2010, MagicKirin wrote:
"And oh squrilest perhaps the barber needs to talk to some non african americans and not be so insular"
Hmm. New code word, that, is it?
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Magic – Are you suggesting he couldn’t find any black voters in the conservative rural areas? If that’s true it would make the title of this thread a bit pointless wouldn’t it!
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Ref 3, squirrelist
"And I thought MagicK had invented that all by himself and hadn't just nicked it from Republican propaganda."
Would it be accurate to assume squirrels have never listened to the Rush Limbaugh radio show? I have a close relative who does on a daily basis, and who is proud to admit it, and I can tell you that terminology such as the apology tour, charlatan and others became a cacophony in some circles immediately after that illustrious bastion of conservative (?) values articulated them.
Perhaps I am missing something, but did someone assume black Americans are a constituency of think alike folks? They are no different from all other ethnic groups in the USA, and although most are very proud of having a black President for the first time in our history, I suspect that most disagree with some of his policies and agree with others. I do too.
I don't expect all his policies to be successful or produce the desired results, but at least he is trying which is more than can be said for some of his predecessors.
The man at the barbershop that acknowledged the difficulties of cleaning up somebody else's mess is absolutely right. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people who would rather focus on blaming others than trying to fix the problems at hand, who do not understand the magnitude of the damage done, and who find proposals such as letting our defunct market forces lead the way to recovery acceptable.
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Ref 5, Magic
"Perhaps you should also go to a rural conservative area for their views on Obama."
I suspect Mark, like most people with a minimal amount of common sense and experience, are well aware of how most folks in the "rural" America you are referring to feel about President Obama.
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ref 7-9
MLK day is a national day for all Americans not just african Americans. MLK unlike Jessie Jackson or Al sharepton has alost universal respect.
The point was this barber seems to be part of the Obama can do no wrong group so yes I find him to be very insular.
And I have said this many times, I don't listen to Rush! When I listen to talk radio I prefer the local ones if you are in Mass you may know them: Jim and Margirie,Michael Graham, Howie Carr, and even Jimmy Rodgers
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"He's allowed the left to pull him off his campaign promise to work with both sides of the aisle."
_____
Are there any journalists in the US that subject what politicians say to some kind of impartial scrutiny?
Obama has hardly veered left. His healthcare pledge is lightyears to the right of what he promised on the campaign trail. He has raised tax on tobacco, but has also moved to cut tax elsewhere (he got 3 GOP votes).
If this statement were subject to any kind of analysis it would be exposed as a deliberate untruth designed to turn voters away from Obama and justify rebublican attempts to prevent government from operating until they can regain power. (The dems were just as bad, they just didn't have to lie about how far right the last president had taken the country).
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8. At 12:16pm on 18 Jan 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
"Would it be accurate to assume squirrels have never listened to the Rush Limbaugh radio show?"
Squirrelpost:
It would. Well, not quite 'never'. We did follow up a link here once and listened to him on the internet for a few seconds. We were very shocked. (We had had until then thought someone with the name Limbough' might have been more favourable to our ideals, but we seem to have been misled about the spelling.) It is (we have been informed by a reliable source) carried on cable on American bases abroad. And SHAPE in Belgium. Depressing.
(Our request to have SFN--Squirrel Forces Network--programmes broadcast for the sake of balance there has been turned down, btw.)
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Ref 10, Magic
Was "alost" a freudian slip?
You either did not read what Mark wrote, or have problems with English comprehension. The examples cited by Mark are representative of the difference of opinions and doubts that exist even among President Obama's most ardent supporters. They are hardly representative of people who can not see anything wrong in what he does.
If you want to find people who follow the party line blindly and are willing to follow the leader down the abyss, look for the nearest mirror.
For a man who never listens to Rush, you sure have a habit of repeating what he says within minutes of that champion of democracy making identical claims using identical terms.
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@2 (BVL): "I say that no President really ever has any control over which direction the economy turns." That's true, but it doesn't for one minute keep Presidents and Congresses from trying to claim credit for growth and deny responsibility / blame the other fellows for downturns.
@8 (StD): "The man at the barbershop that acknowledged the difficulties of cleaning up somebody else's mess is absolutely right."
Especially when "the mess" extends back for at least a generation, if not farther, and when a majority of the country has a vested interest in NOT looking too closely at it. We didn't generate $60T in debt in 8 years, or in 16.
"Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people... who find proposals such as letting our defunct market forces lead the way to recovery acceptable."
StD, I'm not sure what to think about this, because there are too many ways to interpret your statement. What are you calling for here?
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ref #13
SaintDominick wrote:
Ref 10, Magic
Was "alost" a freudian slip?
(typo)
You either did not read what Mark wrote, or have problems with English comprehension. The examples cited by Mark are representative of the difference of opinions and doubts that exist even among President Obama's most ardent supporters. They are hardly representative of people who can not see anything wrong in what he does.
(No I read three people who say blame Bush and Obama is great)
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Ref 14, arclightt
"Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people... who find proposals such as letting our defunct market forces lead the way to recovery acceptable."
StD, I'm not sure what to think about this, because there are too many ways to interpret your statement. What are you calling for here?"
The "solution" advocated by Sen. McCain and other leaders of the GOP to solve our economic problems was focused, almost entirely, on letting the market forces lead the way to recovery - in addition to saying no to anything that implies a deviation from the status quo.
Considering the state of our market forces, the problems our corporations and the economy at large continue to have, I think it is unrealistic to expect those who need as much help as the unemployed to lead the way to anything but bankruptcy.
We need to pursue energy independence and invest in the development of new energy sources and new technologies, we need to invest in infrastructure, education, and ways to reduce our debt, rather than focusing on illusions and expecting miracles where none are going to happen.
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The quote from the Black Republican- "I don't think he believes in American exceptionalism: he's been on an apology tour round the world, and I don't agree with that."- shows exactly why Obama is so good for this country, and will continue to be so, from the viewpoint of other nations in particular. I think it is way past time for us to give up the self-indulgent concept of American exceptionalism. We aren't really all that special any more, and the world will move on without us if we continue to think that we are. The entitlement, the resting upon our laurels, the arrogance and empire-building, etc. have nearly ruined us. We really need to stop. I really appreciate having access to viewpoints from "embedded" journalists from other countries. I think we need to stop contemplating our own reflections, as well. Thank you.
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7-9, 10
Just looked up the sort of thing Mr Graham has to say. Striking similarities to certain posts, I see. Bit like saying "I'm OK, really, I never listen to Adolf's speeches, only to Josef's' from what I can tell.
How many of these people are there? (No, forget that, I really, really, don't want to know the answer. It'd only depress me.)
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Whilst it's clear that Obama faces a great deal of opposition for his policies it's hard to see what is going to be surprising that he's got a lot of support from the African American population especially in the Chicago area, it's also not all that clear what the objectors to the health policy are objecting about, if it goes through then Obama is apparently a socialist & if it gets so watered down that it fails to be a success will that mean that the objections were justified? What's so wrong in having a universal health plan that costs less then what you have now but benefits more people? As for an 'apology tour', when was that? Did I miss something?
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3 squirrelist . there is not one new idea from gehrkin. well not yet. pigs might fly.
gherkin what makes you think there are no white customers.
11 PTD
"If this statement were subject to any kind of analysis it would be exposed as a deliberate untruth designed to turn voters away from Obama and justify rebublican attempts to prevent government from operating until they can regain power."
ah but it has been said so many times now they are starting to believe it.
It helps most wanted to believe it.
as to cleaning up the mess after the party.
Problem is the republicans seem to think nothing was messed up. Like a dirty frat house they will just wait for the next party to move this parties trash out.
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"MLK day is a national day for all Americans not just african Americans. MLK unlike Jessie Jackson or Al sharepton has alost universal respect."
MLK was shot by a white guy,is that why he gets more respect than the other two mentioned.
As to universal respect . you should mention the problems towns get if they rename a street MLK boulevard.
18 MANY MANY. but not all.
;)
that is why when I hear the words I say. bull so often I have to cry bull.
one would think I was a matador.
17"self-indulgent concept of American exceptionalism."
lol oh that exceptionalism. the old editor here was real big on american exceptionalism.
it is a myth.
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"Problem is the republicans seem to think nothing was messed up. Like a dirty frat house they will just wait for the next party to move this parties trash out."
oh gheky I can see you mind is trying to figure out how this could be changed;)
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Magic – I have been defamed (again), I have never said Obama is great. He is better than Bush, then again from an international perspective how could he not be? Really Mark made it pretty clear he was talking to black voters (the title should have been a hint), so I am unclear what the issue is. Then again it too about half a second from reading the title, before even reading the blog, to know exactly where this thread was going.
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ref #21
MLK was shot by a white guy,is that why he gets more respect than the other two mentioned.
_____________
Yes he was a racist just like the Black Panthers are racist, they represent a tiny minority.
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Ref 18, squirrelist
"How many of these people are there? (No, forget that, I really, really, don't want to know the answer. It'd only depress me.)"
Judging by what I read here, the "tea" parties, and "rural" opinions the number is likely be much higher than we think.
Not surprised the squirrel party's request was rejected, in fact, it has probably been banned in perpetuity from all our military bases.
Ref 17, Barbara
Excellent post!
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ref #17
I think it is way past time for us to give up the self-indulgent concept of American exceptionalism. We aren't really all that special any more, and the world will move on without us if we continue to think that we are.
___________
there you are wrong there certain nations who have contributed to the world and others who have not or have been parasites.
Or do you put the U.S and U.K on equal footing with Myramar, Zimbawe, cuba and other human rights violators?
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24. At 1:52pm on 18 Jan 2010, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #21
MLK was shot by a white guy,is that why he gets more respect than the other two mentioned.
_____________
Yes he was a racist just like the Black Panthers are racist, they represent a tiny minority."
so by HE I assume you refer to MLK despite your previous post. if not why not mention "them" or specify which one of the two you were referring to.
;)
"contributed to the world "
I would think the world contributed to the USA. wheer most of the worlds good ended up in the dump.
St Dom yes I would agree that there are quite a few of these tea B partyers out here.
or "rural independents"
america the welcoming melting pot my gherkin
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general penitentiary wrote:
24. At 1:52pm on 18 Jan 2010, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #21
MLK was shot by a white guy,is that why he gets more respect than the other two mentioned.
_____________
Yes he was a racist just like the Black Panthers are racist, they represent a tiny minority."
so by HE I assume you refer to MLK despite your previous post. if not why not mention "them" or specify which one of the two you were referring to.
;)
(You are truly ignorant the he is James Earl Ray and the Black Panthers are just as big a racists)
"contributed to the world "
I would think the world contributed to the USA. wheer most of the worlds good ended up in the dump.
(Again your ignorance most of the major technoligcal advances are from the west and the majority from the U.S)
St Dom yes I would agree that there are quite a few of these tea B partyers out here.
or "rural independents"
america the welcoming melting pot my gherkin
(Yes and that is another reason for American exceptionalism that we have the melting pot which much of the world especially the Middle East, africa and asia could learn from)
BTW the way how long are you going to keep this alias?
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15. At 1:14pm on 18 Jan 2010, MagicKirin wrote:
"(No I read three people who say blame Bush and Obama is great)"
No, you read that three people said what you would rather people didn't hear. And expend a great deal of time, effort and space on this blog trying to drown out when any do. . .
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"BTW the way how long are you going to keep this alias?"
getting all "teacher teacher it's him" won't help.
Generally it is on a Monday that people get removed, u boated.
Just observing the past record there.
I have often wondered if you have someone you know working for the mods. why is it that the banned one is literally that, the banned ONE.
but not you. ever.
so maybe I should ask you when will I get banned. and for what reason?
try answering that without contradicting your views on being banned.
"
Yes he was a racist just like the Black Panthers are racist, they represent a tiny minority."
gives no indication of who
How was I to know you were referring to the assassin.
Of course he was racist.
"
(Again your ignorance most of the major technoligcal advances are from the west and the majority from the U.S)"
sorry we have been here before.Never seems to be a worthwhile argument. I would let you know that none of that tech savvy would work without the raw materials.
I would also point out hat the industrial revolution and crop rotation were not america led. by any means.
as to melting pot. we have been through that and are now. you seem to have a lot of animosity to others views of inclusion. you are rife with views of exclusion.
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29 Here here.
and they make every effort to make sure only one side gets banned.
still I am sure the mods are not really in his pocket so a traveller like me who arrived in this pot wouldn't be banned for remarkable coincidences;)
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Magic – We’ll ignore that some, including the Reverend’s own family, are unconvinced that James Earl Ray committed the assassination shall we?
Nice attempt by the way at some impartiality James E Ray was racist, but so are the Panthers! Not exactly relevant, but hey throw that mud to cover your tracks!
Oh and found where I have ever said that Obama is great yet? Oh why that accusation was relevant to the question I asked in post number 7?
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DM you won't get that answer because he can't find the quote.
because you never said it.
Do I get the lolly pop?
Gherkins is still thinking.
PS o as you know only the right have tried to put him on a pedestal.
the rest are just happy Obama is a real human.
unlike some of the robots around.
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MM wrote: "I'm sitting at the front, opposite the very barber's chair where Obama used to sit: it is now enclosed in a glass case. Above it hangs a large painting of the man himself in the chair."
I recall when Stalin's cult was finally condemned in 1956 this type of 'reverence' acquired an official name in the media.
I wonder whether any socialist (true or not) recalls what it was? :-)))
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PS all us "aliases" would gladly return to happier laze' but time is like a river and you can't make it flow back without a serious blockage. and then it changes course maybe or eventually carries on as normal but with a big flood.
So how does damning the river help?
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25. At 1:53pm on 18 Jan 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
"Not surprised the squirrel party's request was rejected, in fact, it has probably been banned in perpetuity from all our military bases."
Good heavens, we weren't going to let any of our members actually go onto one. (Guns make us nervous, and people with guns make us even more nervous. If half of 'em can't tell the difference between a human with a hanky in his back pocket and a rabbit. . . let alone. . .well, we won't go into that . . .) We're quite up with technology. It's all done on computers now. We do all the audio and the jingles and stuff in our Gospel Oak studio in London.
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General – You can have a lolly, even though they are bad for your teeth!
I have to wonder in a way why a blog discussing black voter opinions was necessary. I get that their opinions are important especially since many black voters (and white ones) consider the President to be black, which he isn’t. But Mark should be aware that this was always going to end up messy, especially considering the whole debacle over whether make believe aliens are the new black and whether that meant a film was racist.
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Powermeerkat – No we’ll leave that to you comrade!
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Re #38
Please remind me, in what formation were we "comrades-in-arms"? ;)
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"But I don't put the blame on Obama, I put it on the previous administration." -says the barber.
Well, it's nothing new.
I recall when Clinton was in the White House about the only thing which was not blamed on the previous administration - was Zippergate.
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37 there was a report on BBC america news this morning . In it they interviewed some people about how they felt Obama was doing.
it seemed from that report that blacks were in general OK with his progress, they realised it takes time to make a cake out of manure.
I am with you the president is both colours wrapped in one nice package . (oh listen to the screams of messiah in the background;)
But to many he is still called Hussein and is darker than them in winter.
That is all some see.
And Yes Gherkin there are some blacks who support the GOP. every race has greedy people. only a racist would think otherwise.I suspect you would at least almost agree with that.
some forget the near canonisation of Reagan by the right it seems
back to this thread. I know it will draw more racists out of the woodwork. but I think Mark can see htere is some racism going on. quite a bit.
As to Click and clack. Glad to see Mark mArdel that you found that show. (i hope) it is really very entertaining.
Liek Question of sport both are based on topics and fields that I really don't care for.(very american phrase) and both are entertaining because they generally have something else to them.
click and clack saved me from a ticket one day.
I remembered them mentioning Indicator lights( blinkers too you too late americans) double the speed of clicking when the bulb has blown. So I knew to tell the officer that "yes it is my left indicator ight that has blown .it just blew on my way onto I5." and they quite rightly believed me.
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"By the time we start feeling the effects of President Obama and what he wanted to do, he'll be out of office. It takes a while." [THE Barber]
Right on.
And that's why it'll take a while before Mr. Obama's successor and his supporters start to blame the previous administration for those effects. :-)
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Ref 41, general penitentiary
"some forget the near canonisation of Reagan by the right it seems"
Or the de facto canonization of George W. Bush during the first 5 years of his tenure, when the slightest criticism was tantamount to high treason and evidence of not supporting the troops.
The irony is that many Democrats are disillusioned or dissatisfied with some of the policies of President Obama, particularly when it comes to foreign policy for precisely the opposite of what his Republican detractors accused him of. Oops, I forgot, they are now rural Independents!
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33. At 2:50pm on 18 Jan 2010, general penitentiary wrote:
"the rest are just happy Obama is a real human"
But 'human with squirrel characteristics' we thought. (At first, anyway; not entirely sure now. And I suppose after next November there'll be even less chance of any getting into the open.)
37. At 3:00pm on 18 Jan 2010, David Murrell wrote:
"But Mark should be aware that this was always going to end up messy"
I think he probably was. Not nice to watch, is it? Not what I hoped we would see (and i'd guess not him either) but I'm not surprised. Saddened, though.
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Ref 40, powermeerkat
"I recall when Clinton was in the White House about the only thing which was not blamed on the previous administration - was Zippergate."
The problems we are having were caused by decades of bad policies, bad decisions, and fiscal irresponsibility at all levels, include us, the people.
Blaming others, passing the buck, and refusing to accept responsibility is a truly bipartisan trait, who can forget the days of a certain Lt. Col. being responsible for U.S. foreign policy. The reason Zippergate was never an issue before Clinton is not because they did not happen, but because predecessors with similar malfunctions were never asked to swear under oath about the integrity of their equipment or personal decisions.
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Re Ronald Reagan...
The man mightily precipitated a collapse of the Motherland of the World Proletariat.
For that alone " the trigger-happy cowboy" should never be forgiven.
Depriving anti-U.S. Fifth Column and many a socialist in the West of their harbour, safe haven, and anchor.
Let alone sponsorship. :-(
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Re #45
Will you forgive me, Saint Dominick, if I confess that I'll take "a certain Lt. Col." over a certain "col...Ret'd"? ;-)
Despite not being a member of Ollie's Fan Club?
BTW. You're right that e.g. both JFK and Bobby never had to swear under oath about their allegiance to Monroe...Doctrine. :-)
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34. At 2:54pm on 18 Jan 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
MM wrote: "I'm sitting at the front, opposite the very barber's chair where Obama used to sit: it is now enclosed in a glass case. Above it hangs a large painting of the man himself in the chair."
I recall when Stalin's cult was finally condemned in 1956 this type of 'reverence' acquired an official name in the media.
I take it, then you think President Obama's official photo should not hang in the messes of Edwards Air Force (or any other, I mention that because you appear to be familiar with it) base? Nor should have that of either of the Bushes, or Reagan, for fear of establishing a personality cult?
(Now, I am bowing out here, because the extraneous noise and nonsense that is drowning any sensible discussion is simply getting too loud, too early. Yet again, just one or two people seem determined on sabotage.)
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46 again you make me feel like a matador. BULL.
solidarity did that.
many events did that.but Reagan didn't.
43 "Oops, I forgot, they are now rural Independents!"
damn RIGHT and don't forget it ;)
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Re #48 I don't object to our current Commander-in-Chief's portrait hanging in every U.S. base. Or even school. Not at all.
Although I would very strongly object to putting him "in a glass cage".
Let alone "in the chair".
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Ref 47, powermeerkat
"BTW. You're right that e.g. both JFK and Bobby never had to swear under oath about their allegiance to Monroe...Doctrine. :-)"
And neither did George Washington, Eisenhower and others under similar allegiances or circumstances. The difference was respect for the Office of the Presidency, and recognition that the job of an elected official, including our Presidents, does not include canonization because of Saintly attributes or deeds.
On a lighter note, I prefer JFK's concept of beauty and class over Bill's, Cuban cigars and blue dresses notwithstanding.
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Powermeerkat – I guess you are one of those Bourgeoisie thingees then? No proles here then, what a shame. As for me comrade, I was born into the bourgeoisie and have remained one ever since, if you consider Marx’s definitions.
I must say referencing Obama against Stalin is a bit beneath you. Especially since you know that Obama is about as socialist as I am a Republican.
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Ref 46, powermeerkat
"For that alone " the trigger-happy cowboy" should never be forgiven."
I am sure the Kremlin was in a state of panic when they heard Ronnie tell them to tear down that wall, but what sticks in my mind is not Berlin, but Lebanon, deals with our alleged nemesis, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and who can forget engaging a menacing fleet of Grenadian canoes directed by nefarious elements at a mental hospital.
I think we need to rename a few more roads, airports and buildings ASAP, in fact, how about renaming Washington DC Reaganopolis? :-)
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ref #30
First I said the West but let look at the last 50 years.
Pc development
software development
telecomunications
medicine
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Nice that Mr. Mardell got to visit Chicago and talk with 'black' voters there. Nice thoughtful quotes from them too. The only quote that sounds a little "shrill" or angry is that of the GOP candidate - probably the result of trying to squish so many talking points into one sentence. I see the lobbiests have found a way around the new disclosure requirements....theyve determined not to register in the first place...chasing la cucaracha is not easy.
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Re#52
David, I'm sure you know that I was not comparing Barack Hussein Obama to Soso Djugashvili.
I was refering merely to a rather unhealty phenomenon called personality cult.
Although I suspect that if I had mentioned as a reference point such deeply revered personalities as Chairman Mao, Kim-il-Sung, Mengistu Haile Mariam, Saddam Hussein, Fidel Castro, Nicolae Ceausescu or even Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini you might have felt slightly upset, too.
Am I right or am I right?
Re # 46 No needed for "Reaganopolis". Our National Airport has already been named after Reagan.
[by the bipartisan decision of the US Congress.]
Just like the biggest international airport in Metropolitan Washington Area has already been named after Dulles. :-)
But sorry about not having named any of our newest aircraft carriers after Bill Clinton or even Jimmy Carter. A real shame! ;-(
P.S. Ask former Soviet leaders and military commanders what they thought of Ronald Reagan.
Nope, they weren't in awe of him because he was a great actor.
Which he clearly wasn't. [never good at pretending.]
Guess again...:-)))
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54 are you simple ?
you said the west I mentioned the west. you now mention "last 50 years" go away if you cannot understand you own posts.
and lets try not to go into that who invented what because we have been there before every time you over patriotic americans get shown up time and time again.
give it up.
be more specific in the first place. Ask who but america invented the "Only one USA" ( as if anyone else wants to be confused with them) sticker and no one will question your comments. but otherwise you seem to be deceptive and factually bankrupt.that habit of continually moving the goal posts is dishonest. so why take any words from such a dishonest man as you seriously.
same with MA and the same with the one who thinks power is the same as wet blanket .
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St D do americans really think that Ronnie was the reason the wall fell?
HIS story is different. I would say that Gorby was the reason. that he had all the power to clamp down and did not.
that was the difference. it has also been noted in recent books about those times that Gorby was actively encouraged to try to clamp down.
either way Perestroika is not an American word.
Never was never will be.
The people behind the Iron curtain cared little about Reagan, they did care about the musicians that we exported.
They did love their deaf;) metal.
The fact that Americans so Idolise Reagan is shown by the stupid assertion that Ronnie brought the wall down.
Back to that Avatar thread. could the guy be a capitalist american saving the poor commies from themselves, even though the capitalists are the ones causing the problem.
Was the hero a commie.
If so it seems commies are in.
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Re #54 MagicKirin re American contributions in the realms of science and technology...
I think that reading merely the list of Nobel prize laureats in science/medicine in the last, say, 60 years might help some.
Just as looking at the list of critical patents issued in the same period worldwide.
P.S. I think it would be unfair to remind some 5th Columnists and US haters who invented/designed stuff which allows them to spit on us here.
Especially this Pen.. Penta...Pentateuch outfit?
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56 any evidence to this AWE.
I saw none living in communist countries.
I saw many things but not Awe at Reagan. Not fear either.
Who would be afraid of this. Ronnie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL5EWFow6N4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPiN7ZfhJVc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfOyuF3ji2k
the were probably more afraid we would export them the Two Ronnie's.
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"Perestroika is not an American word.
Never was never will be.'
I agree that "perestroika" never was. Gorby failed miserably to reform communist system and Soviet economy.
Because both were simply unreformable.
Gorbatchev wasn't smart enough to see it and it took Yeltsin to cut off the losses in order to save the (much smaller) rest from a total collapse.
Although it seems, that "new, improved, democratic" Russia's political system and her economy are non-reformable too.
Particularly judging by the most recent developments in that country.
BTW. Gorby, the author of "glasnost" [openness], which he so heavily advertized, lied through his teeth about Chernobyl nuclear disaster.
And opend up only after he was reliably informed that we (U.S.) already got the photos of the calamity's site. And were ready to publish them.
[although in lowered resolution. :-)]
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Glasnost led to perestroika.
the second would not have happened without the first.
Yeltsin would not have happened without Gorby.
PS neither were called Reagan and neither were American.
That Gorby lied about Chernobyl was not missed by those of watching "potato world" on that sunday.
So what? It has nothing to do with the reforms that both Bush senior and Thatcher opposed in East Germany.
You forget to deride Solidarity for their part in the fall of communism.
The union that brought down the Soviet Union. Not the American wishes for their marble-less presidents.
The big mistake was made by the Americans and Brits in refusing to help in the transition. It has been shown to have led to a few issues since we said "go away Gorby we don't want you to tear down communism"
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Gorbatchev began efforts to reform Soviet communist system and its economy after he was reliably informed by GRU that building antiballistic defense system (then called SDI)- which Ronald Reagan, abhorring MAD doctrine, wanted to create - was possible and that U.S. would sooner or later succeed in building an effective AMD.
While KGB (which knew the real state of Soviet industry and of its technology better than anyone else) informed Gorby that USSR would not be able to match it because of its backwardness in the area of computer science, electronics, avionics, etc.
And that the only option to reduce a potential threat (as Moscow saw it) would be to try and buy USSR time; by making right noises and signing strategic arms reduction agreements predicated on Ronald Reagan abandonning Teller's plan and a Strategic Defense Initiative.
Not only the facts but Soviet thinking of the period are very well known by now not only thanks to Soviet defectors, but because during Yeltsin's era many of the so far secret documents were revealed, and because many former Soviet aparatchiks and generals, now about to face the Supreme Judge, are talking quite frankly about the 1980s and '90s realities, discussions in the then Politbureau , etc.
Anybody who wants to find out for himself what the facts on the ground were at the time will not have much difficulty to do so.
All it would take would be putting some time and effort.
[Not that speaking Russian would hurt]
P.S. Ronald Reagan's tangible help which made it possible for Polish Solidarity Union to survive marshal law period (which began on Dec. 13, 1981) is also very well documented.
[Not that JPII's assistence was irrelevant]
Many of the top Solidarity activists of the period, spoke and wrote about it quite extensively.
Which also can be independently verified. Quite easily.
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HIS story is different. I would say that Gorby was the reason. that he had all the power to clamp down and did not.
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The war that afghanistanis fought with the soviet union was the reason..that war ate the economy of the soviets like those termites which ate the throne and inside of the king solomon while his followers kept on thinking that their king was sitting on a solid throne...It could have been a dimitri or sergey or ergon, instead of mikhail , he would have done exactly what mikhail did..and if there was a tom, dick or harry as american president instead of ronald, he would have taken credit for this..It was the timing..and the that exact timing was provided by the afghanistanis with their blood and their country..
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Ref 56, powermeerkat
"No needed for "Reaganopolis". Our National Airport has already been named after Reagan."
I know, I used it quite often when I lived and worked in Maryland. I just wish they had named the main runway the "cut and run" takeoff strip...
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Americans are used to worhipping the son of G-d, whom they worshipped for centuries...even converted red indians and slaves so that they too would start worhipping him...When they stopped that, they had to find other replacements...so the hollywood actors and the presidents...
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Colonel,
I saw a plane from Qatar taxiing at the Port-au-Prince airport. Thank you for joining the world community.
BTW, the Toussaint Louverture International Airport in Haiti was built with grant money donated by the USA...
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He is better than Bush, then again from an international perspective how could he not be?
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How he is better than bush from international perspective? that he didnt send the extra troops to afghanistan, something the generals had requested bush at the end of the term, which he just put off because he was about to leave office.
The drone attack in pakistan have tripped since obama came, the interference in yemen, new sanctions on iran, the jews are openly building settlements..He has shown no interest, just talk, to change anything from bush's period..And its obama who without any debate announced the segregation at the airports, something bush tried but had failed..
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I see you can't bring any quotes from the Russian generals. too fast for you are they?
if it were sooooo easy how come you could not find one quote to include in your piece.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/221194/page/2
" Foremost among them is that the key was Gorbachev's humility, not Washington's perseverance. The former was wise enough to realize the empire's moment had passed, and the latter largely watched events unfold while sitting on its hands. Both players followed strategies of restraint, but it's clear that Washington's weak hand was lucky, while Gorbachev's loosened fist was heroic. "
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and blacks in usa are under a lot of pressure from the meaningfull eyes of the whites, whether obama admitts it or not...the whites identify all the black population with obama. So its quite natural the blacks voters are under more pressure to discuss obama's every move...He belongs to american minority group and minorities tend to behave exactly how blacks are behaving like now..
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BTW.
I never claimed or wrote that Ronald Reagan defeated Soviet Union and/or caused its collapse.
Soviet Union was bound to collapse EVENTUALLY anyway because it was..well...Soviet Union.
[I myself had predicted in mid 80s that it would fall apart by 2010. ]
What I wrote (in #46) was that "The man mightily precipitated a collapse of the Motherland of the World Proletariat."
And that for that Reagan is hated and resented till this very day by assorted "comrades", "fellow travelers", "useful idiots" and "pool-side pinkos".
Also on this side of the Pond.
Both true.
May Ronnie rest in peace, and Godspeed USS "Ronald Reagan"! :-)
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I saw a plane from Qatar taxiing at the Port-au-Prince airport. Thank you for joining the world community.
BTW, the Toussaint Louverture International Airport in Haiti was built with grant money donated by the USA...
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You can keep on tracking who donates and who doesnt...thats your department..I like I said have no such urge, impulse or interest in this kind of competition..the aid in the storages will in the end rot..and someone will decide to subsidize it and sell it in the market...Remember the famine in malawi? the same will happen here...The airport at kandahar was also built by the americans in 60s when they were competing with the soviet unions to woo the afghanistanis...And I hope, now you know the reason for americans taking over the airport of that airport and also that of kandahar??? They built it, so they can claim it too..
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Ref 56, powermeerkat
"No need for "Reaganopolis". Our National Airport has already been named after Reagan."
SaintDominick:
I know, I used it quite often when I lived and worked in Maryland. I just wish they had named the main runway the "cut and run" takeoff strip...
Meerkat replies: You're muuuuch too kind! ["Main runway" ha! :-)]
RRNT has basically only one strip (the other is a small aviation joke);
with a very narrow and turny approach corridor.
[recall, e.g., that tall USA Today bldg in Rosslyn, by the Potomac? ;)]
You have to bank steep to the left immediately after take-off (to avoid flying over you know what) and hope (in winter) that you de-iced more thoroughly than that Air Florida.
RRNA was supposed to be closed long time ago for safety reasons.
The reason it hasn't is simple: too many US congressmen and senators -who have their private parking spaces there) find it sooo convienient when they're flying home on Fridays and return on Mondays.
Not that care for BWI much.
Thank God for Mr. Dulles, who, when IAD was being planned insisted on buying much more land that was seemingly needed.
Now not only is Dulles International still not crowded, but is also one of the few major airports in the U.S. which have room for expansion (read: new runways). Approach is a piece of cake and Dulles Access Rd. is great.
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Re: 41 (GP)
"And Yes Gherkin there are some blacks who support the GOP. every race has greedy people."
Where is it that you get the GOP is more or less greedy than the DNC?
Al Gore, $400M chanting "global warming" from his jet.
W.J. Clinton made $110M in less than 8 years in influence peddling.
Dashle, millions annually as a lobbiest.
J.Jackson, not filing tax returns for years.
Chicago mayor in "paperless" (unrecorded) transactions of contracts and property transfers.
Obama with his home in the seven figures for sale, purchased on a "community organizer" income.
Now, with a tax evader appointed to Secretary of Treasury, $ billions have disappeared and are not accounted for.
One billion dollars in Fannie Mae foreclosed property was assigned to the husband of a California senator (2009).
I believe the citizens spend too much time listening to what they say and not watching what they do. The GOP never coveted the nation's wealth as much as this group.
When you praise their generosity, remember it is not their money they are giving away. It would be like looting your neighborhood and giving 50% to charity.
Greed is not racial.
This administration has taken greed to an entirely new level.
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54. At 4:48pm on 18 Jan 2010, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #30
"First I said the West but let look at the last 50 years.
Pc development
software development
telecomunications
medicine"
Giving Americans a bad name again? The first modern computer, whether the Babbage Machine or some later more "electronic" devices was developed in Britain. Telecommunications owe something to Canada and Italy, and CERN developed the idea of the internet before AL Gore "invented" it. And medicine was invened by the Egyptians, Greeks and Chinese independently of each other. Americans have enough real inventions to our credit without claiming other nations contributions as our own.
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71 come now.
you never "said" Reagan brought them down? but you tried your best to suggest it with your "mightily precipitated" I suspect if you think hard you have suggested it a few times.
but lets think.
part of the events that collapsed the soviet union was the afghan war they had.
now laughing out loud but didn't the part america played in encouraging that, back fire a little. precipitating the war on terror?
Was it Ronnie that funded the terrorists we now fight?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
just wondering
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Pc development
software development
telecomunications
medicine"
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We have a saying in our culture, that you can load and over load a donkey with all sorts of books, from Anthropology to Zoology and all those that come in between these two, still the donkey will remain a donkey..P.S, the donkey is a metaphor.
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74 and again a telling post from those on the Right side of things.
forgetting to mention dick cheney the pauper. or the Bush family paupers.
or the mcpaupers. or wait.
the paupers who are campaigning against a $150 a year tax on corperations making a half million a year.
no wait it was $50 for some of them.
those same republicans that are saying " we have to sack a worker because $150 will bankrupt us.
Ann .
Yes I would say that a party that says no to any taxes to fund their war. the war they pushed is a little greedy.
the same party that would say no to universal health care because they have some fine health care. I would call greedy.
Get all anti rich if you like, believe it or not that is not my issue.
take that warren buffet. I'm sure I would find some aspects despicable, but he gives a hell of a lot back. and he was not voting for mc cain or the republicans.
smart guy. shame about so many others.
It is not money that makes one greedy.
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ref #75
Giving Americans a bad name again? The first modern computer, whether the Babbage Machine or some later more "electronic" devices was developed in Britain. Telecommunications owe something to Canada and Italy, and CERN developed the idea of the internet before AL Gore "invented" it. And medicine was invened by the Egyptians, Greeks and Chinese independently of each other. Americans have enough real inventions to our credit without claiming other nations contributions as our own.
________________
I stand by my statement the majority of these developments in the last 50 years by the west and the majority on that from the U.S
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Re #74
"Obama with his home in the seven figures for sale, purchased on a "community organizer" income."
The buying price was interesting too and a loan Mr. Obama got from the...
What were you saying 'bout bailing out failing b....?
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"CERN developed internet"?
I'm sorry, but do you know, Sir, what Internet IS?
[No, it's not World Wide Web]
And WHY is was created in the first place?
Does the name ARPA (now: DARPA) ring a bell at all?
Have you ever heard of Internet 2?
And who designed and build that one too?
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part of the events that collapsed the soviet union was the afghan war they had.
now laughing out loud but didn't the part america played in encouraging that, back fire a little. precipitating the war on terror?
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Afghanistan war was completely responsible for fall of soviet union and its grasp on eastern europe...If gorbatjov hadnt willingly paved the way for soviet union to disolve and eastern europe to step forward from behind the iran curtain, they would have violantely taken their freedom...as everyone by then had seen its defeat at the hands of pathetic islamic mujahedeen, recurited from orphanages from afghanistan and pakistan, and those young men recruited from muslim world...At that time, no one could imagine the blowback affect of american support to islamic mujahedeen,and those who acknowldge this threat, just down played it as brzezinski the former security advisor of carter famously arrognatly said that and I quote
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
i rest my case with the words of Brzezinski...And for those who dont know what that secret operation was, I present this...
Interviewer: How did you interpret Soviet behavior in Afghanistan, such as the April revolution, the rise of... I mean, what did you think their long-term plans were, and what did you think should be done about it?
Brzezinski: I told the President, about six months before the Soviets entered Afghanistan, that in my judgment I thought they would be going into Afghanistan. And I decided then, and I recommended to the President, that we shouldn't be passive.
Interviewer: What happened?
Brzezinski: We weren't passive.
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Ironically, Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama have something in common: Illinois. Reagan was born in Dixon, IL and Obama was Senator here, of course.
As to the poster talking about Russians and "pinko" and all that: I wrote a letter to the editor during the run for President in 08'. My letter was in favor of Pres. Obama. Many people in my local community are Republicans/conservatives and there were dozens of comments condemning my letter, which was too liberal for them. One of the comments stated that I was a "pinko", loyal to the Russians and all that. It was very, very strange how the Repubs in my area related Obama to Russia and pinko to me, when I am 100% USA. Perhaps it is other issues. But silly and strange, indeed.
I love the British like brothers and sisters, but what was up with Ricky Gervais' inappropriate comments on the Golden Globes? I am a huge fan of Sir Paul and did not understand why another person, let alone a British person, would insult him, calling him cheap, ect. If anything, Sir Paul is all quality. I liked Gervais in Night at the Museum 2: Smithsonian, where he made a cameo. But his jokes at the GG were awful. I don't know if he wrote them or NBC did, but I am sure he could have been much, much better. I like comedy, but not insulting, put people down comedy.
To the story Mr. Mardell wrote, I applaud you for taking the time out to interview real people. It is interesting to see how the black community feels about President Obama. I agree that it will take time for President Obama to deal with everything that is going on. But only one mentioned health care and he did not sound in favor of it.
As a white Illinoisan (or Caucasian, whatever), I like some of what Obama's done and some things I don't like. It kind of goes both ways, depending on the issue.
Health care: I am against the mandate. Pres. Obama told us that he would not pass it. Now he wants to pass it, making not buying health care a criminal act, including fines and possible jail time. It will be counted as taxes by the IRS at the end of the year. I do not like the secret meetings of the Dems or legal bribing of the Dems to get other Dems to vote. I am in favor of universal health care, which would be paid for through taxes during the year, not at the end. Then, no one would be a health care criminal.
Guan. Bay: I was in favor of shutting it down. I never thought it should have opened in the first place. Now, I am still in favor of shutting it down, but extremely unhappy Obama is bringing them to the heartland.
Corn, corn, soy beans, corn, soy beans....and the world's most dangerous terrorists, our mortal enemies. Great. Even if we have the best security, I don't like the idea that these villains are so close.
Economy: Pres. Obama needs to focus on bringing our American jobs back. I am tired of buying American products made in other countries. Why can't we make them, when our people need jobs? If an American corporation is too cheap to pay minimum wage, then that corporation should not exist. We can save America by making most of our products again. There is no need to import. It is time to focus on making what we are known for: quality. No more cheap products that make people sick.
The list could go on and on. I would have to say that I both like and dislike what Pres. Obama has done. But like one of the African-Americans you interviewed, I hold hope, too, that things will only get better.
President Obama, even if Americans don't always agree with you, you know we have your back because the USA sticks together. Sometimes we argue, but we can't forget that we are a team.
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I knew that Nikita Khrushchev's son lives in the U.S.
[Just like Roald Sagdevev, KGB gen. Kalugin, etc, etc.]
But I didn't know that Gorbatchev's son moved to U.S. as well.
As a matter of fact, I didn't even know that Gorby had a son. :-)
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Ref 73. powermeerkat
You are right about Dulles, excellent airport, including easy access if you can avoid the traffic nightmare in Northern Virginia.
I only used Reagan National when I had no other choice.
My favorite, since I used to work at the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt and lived in Montgomery County, Maryland, was BWI.
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So, it was neither ronald reagan , nor carter nor gorbatsjov, the freedom of soviet union and eastern europe was made possible by the blood of islamic mujahedeen, mostly afghanis and their country was used as the battleground..Whem you stir moslems, then they get stirred up...Iraq has stablised after the chaos created by us/uk, not because of surge but because the bathiest ex army and policemen were asked to stablize the situation...Pakistani army has taken hold of swat valley and already invited tourists (for free) to go there...and usa is dependent on pakistani army for its squirmishes against taliban in afghanistan and to protect its soldiers in afghanistan..However if it wants to take credit the way its doing with the haitians and the aid, for the break up of soviet union, for bringing relative calm in iraq and for a compromizing victory in afghanistan...then, the muslims will generously give it that credit....Musalman isnt afraid of challanges neither is he interested in taking credit...Tomorrow if americans come to them saying the chinese are killing the muslims or the people in tibet, so help them, muslims will do it...But I hope its china who comes first to muslims, saying usa is killing everyone...
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As a white Illinoisan (or Caucasian, whatever), I like some of what Obama's done and some things I don't like. It kind of goes both ways, depending on the issue.
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as a white you can like or dislike obama's policies, but for a black person its also a question of indentity...First time a person from minority, and not a willing minority but minority that was bought in the markets and then brought to usa, is running the country...that whole population is being tested....So, its about time obama starts accepting the fact that he is a black man, and not some neutral colored person....Its the blacks who have to defend him in their daily lives, obama will never be asked the questions the blacks have to answer....
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Ref 72, colonel
Contrary to what you think, it doesn't matter to me who was first or who gave the most to help the people of Haiti. What is important to me is to help. Period.
We did not claim ownership of the airport in Haiti when we built it, after we built it, or now. Our planes, and those of many other nations, are using to bring desperately needed supplies to help the people of Haiti overcome the horrible tragedy they have endured. But if you wish to have fun making outlandish claims, go for it, I doubt too many people are impressed with your constant accusations, exaggerations, or claims of victimhood.
I opposed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq from the outset, and still do, but you (the Taliban) could have avoided what took place in your country by simply handing over Osama bin Laden. You didn't and you have paid a heavy price for your decision.
Obviously, Iraq was a completely different scenario. Nothing Saddam could have done or said would have prevented our decision to invade that country, remove him and the Baathists from power, put Shiites aligned spiritually to Iran in power, destroyed the infrastructure of one of the few secular countries in the region before the invasion, precipitated a slaughter and mass migration of major proportions, and de-stabilized the entire Persian Gulf region.
I hope you consider the consequences of your actions before you make another decision like this. I sincerely hope we do the same. Shooting from the hip sometimes result in shooting ourselves in the foot.
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We did not claim ownership of the airport in Haiti when we built it, after we built it, or now. Our planes, and those of many other nations, are using to bring desperately needed supplies to help the people of Haiti overcome the horrible tragedy they have endured. But if you wish to have fun making outlandish claims, go for it, I doubt too many people are impressed with your constant accusations, exaggerations, or claims of victimhood.
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Three airpots..Entebbe,kandahar and toussaint louverture. Now connect the dots...those who build buildings have the blue prints of the sturcture and know everything about it, and claim it or just raid it, or force to run it...
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colonel artist, the USA has relations with most every country, even the ones that claim they don't like us. Venezuela still competes in our beauty pageants. North Korea wants to have talks and more tourism. Some of Iran's people like us (as shown by Twitter), even if the govt. does not. The world is constantly changing, but other countries still want to be friends with us or at least have relations. The USA is a good country to have on your side.
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Ref 83, Lucy
"Economy: Pres. Obama needs to focus on bringing our American jobs back. I am tired of buying American products made in other countries. Why can't we make them, when our people need jobs? If an American corporation is too cheap to pay minimum wage, then that corporation should not exist."
The erosion of employment opportunities in the USA did not happen during the past 12 months, in fact, it didn't happen during the previous 8 years either. American corporations have been moving their operations overseas for decades to make their products more competitive by using cheap foreign labor. Even worse, we have been giving away emerging technologies that are immediately used by the recipients to improve their industrial base with predictable results.
Neither President Obama nor anyone else will be able to bring back the jobs that have left or the technologies we have given away over the years. The only recourse to reduce our level of unemployment is to create new industries, improve our infrastructure and invest in education.
The latter should not be ignored as it may very well be the key to our ability to remain in the privileged global position we currently enjoy. What is important is not what we made or did not make in the past, but whether or not we have what it takes to meet the challenges of the 21st century.
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What many Americans affected by the financial crisis do not realize is the scope and breadth of the crisis. The scope has impacted nearly all business sectors. Coupled with this is the need to retool factories and manufacturing methods to reduce global warming.
Considering the impact, and the total neglect by the Republican party to address the issue sooner, Obama has been left to clean up arguably the largest mess left by any outgoing administration.
Left to their own devices, old school conservatives and staunch capitalists believe in the free market. Any notion of regulation is frowned on. Government is bad.
What the world has seen is this has failed miserably. A neo-capatilist model is more balanced because it embraces some social principals. Without question Obama is targeting a more effective, durable capatilist system. The current process is doomed to fail in one way or another every major business cycle.
Being a scholar of government, and understanding the guts of many of the issues at hand, I feel Obama is headed in the right direction. He has both a brain and a heart. Bush had neither...only a desire to support his oil buddies and their crooked financial schemes.
Shame on big oil. They are the cancer of the earth. This includes Russia, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Venezuela and oil executives around the globe. Their hands are dirty, their minds are dirty, they are dirty period. Anyone with respectable research skills can trace the corruption easily.
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Dr Finney:
"We have a nation that wanted to see change overnight as if you could flick the telly..."
Lol Eirther Dr Finney is ticking the mickey - telly is British slang, or there was a mistake.
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Re # 86
SaintDominick wrote:
"I used to work at the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt"
I know: that nice small center close to a good Indian restaurant?
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I opposed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq from the outset, and still do, but you (the Taliban) could have avoided what took place in your country by simply handing over Osama bin Laden. You didn't and you have paid a heavy price for your decision.
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Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
Like the taliban said, they want to avoid the war, but bush wants a war, so he shall get one....I think 9 yrs is enough time to correct some of the lies...Hasnt any book come out by some wager of war where he has written how this war was made possible,and how taliban offer was rejected and why it was necessary to reject this offer...I can give them one reason which they can write and americans will have no problem accepting it, that is, taliban regime had to be removed and this ben laden excuse gave america a perfect opportunity to do so...I can gauranty that no american will even say a word against regime change by war....they have internalized that americans have the right to change the regimes, all your government has to do is to provide some false evidences...and the whole of america including the former presidents of the two parties will unite in the name of bipartism or whatever that you call this weird show of unity..As far as aid is concerned, you compare the help,who is giving how much...And one more thing, too much aid, over flow of aid and little distribution, makes that aid to rot in the storages of that airport...The people in UN who work in disaster relief agencies, know exactly, or they should know, how much aid should be taken at what time...Aid should now come at the request of who ever is commander in chief of aid...not just dumped in a knee jerk fashion...otherwise again, I give you the example of milawai..where people suffered yrs after the so called famine, because their country was bombarded with aid, the local products couldnt be sold because the price of aided food and grain was cheaper than their local products..and it effected the next yr and the yr after famine, harvest, because people didnt grow enough crops because aid was all over, and no seeds for the next seaons harvest...
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You are probably right, Saint Dominick. If we could somehow use our problems(climate change, ect.) to create jobs, that would be awesome.
I just don't like buying all my products from other countries. Some products from other countries, that is okay. But not all of them. I believe in the USA. I know we have what it takes to bring the us up again. However, we need to focus on quality and safety over cheapness. It will not be easy. But the best things never are. If we give in now, we will never know what we could have had. We cannot give in or give up to cheapness. The USA has quality people and we should reflect that.
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The USA is a good country to have on your side.
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Then you have never been on the side of usa..ask bin laden, ask sadam, ask the royal family of the late shah, ask the PLA..If you ever could, ask hosni mubarak in confidence..Ask the family of late general zia..after you have finished asking these people, you can ask, the iranian majority..the egyptians, who will surely politely first make sure that you are not going to tell everything they told you, to the nearest policeman or secret service man, pretending to be a hawker across the road..Ask the afghanis..the pathans..ask the pakistanis..Each one of them will start their answer by telling you that they have nothing against americans..but...and then they will start off...
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"Shame on big oil. They are the cancer of the earth. This includes Russia, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Venezuela and oil executives around the globe."
You forgot to mention 2 biggest oil exporters to the U.S.:
our friends and next-door neighbours: Canada and Mexico. :-)
P.S. Now, what about big gas?
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About Haiti, I also wanted to throw in: The USA would not send the Clintons to Haiti, if we or they did not care. The Clintons are American royalty. Personally, Bill Clinton has been my favorite President in my lifetime so far. The affair was no good, but the way Clinton ran the country was tip-top. Plus, Hillary forgave Bill, which was her choice. Growing up, things were never so good as when Clinton was in office. I have great memories of that time. I am a huge, huge fan of all the Clintons. If Chelsea ever wanted to run for an office, I would highly support her.
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95. At 10:26pm on 18 Jan 2010, you wrote:
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
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Whatever my comment was in this hidden post, it was good and mods had no reason to refer it to themselves...it was a passionate reply..to some post..
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Re : "American royalty"
You do know that Hillary can run again?
There's also that Bill's brother...
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How come no one is discussing the black voters discussion on Obama...Is it because we are afraid of touching this topic..or are we afraid of letting our inner demons come out...You can blame your comments on me..saying that I provoked you into saying things...
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The USA would not send the Clintons to Haiti, if we or they did not care.
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I wonder if it ever occurs to you that haitians might not be as big fans of clintons as you are? Stop globalization of your ex presidents and prime ministers..Clinton had 8 yrs in white house, if he didnt help haitians back then when he had the power to do so, being president and all that, no need to think that he can or will help haitians with no real powers..I wish these latest presidents and their vice..starting from clinton would stop this trend of "working for this cause or that" after they get retired..Alternatively start electing old people so by the time they are retired they are old enough to be able to do nothing...or introduce a third term for the presidents who get elected when they below the age of 62.
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Ref 102, colonel
The first 14 or 15 postings, plus a few more here and there, dealt directly with the topic brought up by Mark. As it happens so often, after we ran out of things to say on the subject matter we quickly moved on to other subjects.
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Ref 101, powermeerkat
"There's also that Bill's brother..."
And Jeb, who has first hand experience on how to win selections.
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Ref 99, Lucy
"The affair was no good, but the way Clinton ran the country was tip-top."
I agree. I voted for Hillary in the primaries, and would do it again without reservation if she runs again.
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We cannot give in or give up to cheapness. The USA has quality people and we should reflect that.
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and i humbly remind you of wal-mart..the way americans buy things in those marts and especially when there is sale....the refelction of their quality oozes out...The giant size packets of snacks..and people dont buy just one, but a lot of them...and clothes as if they buy them according to the weight..
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The first 14 or 15 postings, plus a few more here and there, dealt directly with the topic brought up by Mark. As it happens so often, after we ran out of things to say on the subject matter we quickly moved on to other subjects.
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And I noticed that you all ran out of things on this topic faster than your usuual running speed..Does the topic frighten you? or you are not used to talking such things..Is this pre-emtivness on your next white president, that if you start openly talking about obama in terms of his blackness and how the blacks view him or how you view him as your country's first and looks like the only black president, the blacks will do exactly the same with the next white president? The worst thing even the most unbiased person can do is, to ignore the obvious..If you want to be so racially and otherwise united and neutral, then why doesnt america start wearing some sort of dress, like the communists in china used to wear..the mao dress..you can call it the capitalism dress of usa..
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For a man who never listens to Rush, you sure have a habit of repeating what he says within minutes of that champion of democracy making identical claims using identical terms.
SaintDominick - what I do is glance through some of the links in the DrudgeReport. The talking points for the right are outlined there. When a new subject is put up for discussion in the local paper, I know already what will be parroted back as the contributor's opinion. This technique works as well as having your very own crystal ball.
One thing I can't locate though is a letter-to-the-editor template that some right wing(s) outfit has and can't be found via Google. Or at least I can't find it. Since I know a couple of the guys who have sent these letter ( they have to be signed with a real name... policy of the newspaper) I know these guys are no way, absolutely no way, capable of being as articulate and as grammatically correct as their letters make them out to be.
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I agree. I voted for Hillary in the primaries, and would do it again without reservation if she runs again.
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Since we are not talking at all about the topic and even though i fear now that mark will open a topic of haitian aid, the episenter of my headache, but I want to know if you voted for her before she cried or after she cried..Fell for a woman's tears? This is what women do, if every other stratgy fail, they have this final and lethal strategy..
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Ref 94, powermeerkat
"I know: that nice small center close to a good Indian restaurant?"
The Indian restaurant was good, and so was a popular and unpretentious Italian restaurant called Three Brothers.
GSFC is not a "small" Center, it employs approximately 10,000 people, about 3,000 of them are civil servants, the rest are contractors. It has one of the largest concentrations of scientists, engineers, and technicians in the USA and many facilities to house their operations and experiments.
In addition to managing and controlling most unmanned spacecraft, it also manages the TDRSS operations at White Sands, New Mexico, and all operations at Wallops and Merritt Island.
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Ref 110, colonel
"This is what women do"
Don't bet on that. Had Hillary won our troops would not be operating from Afghanistan, they would have crossed into Pakistan months ago, would be fighting in Yemen and we would have sent very unambiguous messages to everyone throughout the region.
Some of the toughest Western leaders in recent decades have been women...and they did not need tears or a husband to achieve their goals.
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There seems to be a plethora of dummies posting today. And that is the end game of those running the show - societal friction which will inevitably lead towards breakdown of services, courts, the military, transportation, communications, etc. And then, I fear, violence. Because fear and distrust can only result in physical confrontations.
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re: 110 colonelartist Three airpots..Entebbe,kandahar and toussaint louverture. Now connect the dots...those who build buildings have the blue prints of the sturcture and know everything about it, and claim it or just raid it, or force to run it...
Blah, blah, blah. Talk about a killer drone.
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Who cares what one Chicago neighborhood thinks? Obama was here in Massachusetts today and couldn't even remember in which of his "57" states he was standing. If this guy really is a Harvard grad it doesn't say much for Harvard, does it?
BBC, spend 2p and buy yourselves a clue. Your new guy is just as utterly clueless on America as Justin Webb. Dumb and dumber, indeed.
cam
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Why is the American public so unbelievably fickle, as well as continually uniformed??? Obama came into office in an utter disaster. The economy was a wreck, the country was enmeshed in several wars. Now after a mere year where he barely has the minimum number of votes to pass anything meaningful in Congress, where he has had to battle all the complete crazies who have overtaken the political dialogue in the country...we wonder why his initiatives have not been entirely successful? Everyone in this country needs to grow up and start entertaining causes and effects which actually mean something rather than comprehend and translate everything into a two-sentence sound-bite. Every serious economist supported his bail-outs as the only answer to avoiding a world-wide depression. Indeed the real criticism is that they were not ENOUGH to support a true financial renaissance--and yet we still get ignorant pundits who complain of his bias toward banking. This is the biggest example, but only one of many where people expect fairy tale quick solutions to immensely complicated problems. What would these same people say had we descended into a 1930's era depression? We will never know, they have had a cushy position so long that they have never had to educate themselves in issues before commenting with utter ignorance! If anything, the 'educated elite' need to start fighting back against the rhetoric used to fool the unwashed masses, as the dialogue in the US is sliding into utter chaos.
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71. At 7:43pm on 18 Jan 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
What I wrote (in #46) was that "The man mightily precipitated a collapse of the Motherland of the World Proletariat."
And that for that Reagan is hated and resented till this very day by assorted "comrades", "fellow travelers", "useful idiots" and "pool-side pinkos".
Also on this side of the Pond.
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Power...wow you are great..you realy nailed those "enlighted" libs and expose their thinnly held hatred of all things NOT liberal..
Now that the liberal stangle hold on the Media is gone, the western libs have to think and put things together for themselves...they are left grasping at straws to convince themselves of their own moral and poltical righteous superiority.
Don't believe me?...Listen to their own words...if you don't think like them..you are a bad person...and don't deserve a place in the public discussion..
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108. colonelartist
...Such hatred of all things not liberal....you sure that isn't you Comrade Chavez? are you going to tell me about the "evils" of the playstation and how only Uncle Chavez can save me from those evil capitalist pigs.
....you sound a like a 60's reject straight out of Austin Powers part 5...make love not war..man...peace and pass the weed..dude...
you sound like a cartoon...you must realize this...
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116. At 02:23am on 19 Jan 2010, PhillyFriend
only people with a "D" next to their name should be allowed...is that it? Obama has held almost the exact same policies as the previous president that you hated...where is your moral outrage?...where are the demonstrations in the street?
ohh I forgot..."D" is perfect..."R" is evil.....
YOU are the reason we have such terrible a system...you think this is a game of my side vs. your side...When you excuse bad things because its "your team" we ALL loose...
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Public policy in the United States of America reflects the sum of the interests of office holder's campaign contributors, not those of their constituents. Candidate Barak Obama knew this better than I do when he promised to change the way business was done in Washington. President Obama cannot now, nor ever will be able to change Washington. He said what people wanted to hear, and they voted for something he could not deliver: change. Politics is the struggle for wealth. The democrats have traditionally purchased votes with spending programs, borrowing rather than taxing to pay the bills for their giveaways. Obama is the first black President, but underneath his carmel colored complexion, he is just another "spend, and elect" democrat.
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Americans have the shortest memories of any people on earth. A lot of Dems are disappointed because Obama is a president, not a savior. He can't save us from our own stupidity, greed, or rapaciousness. All he can do is offer possible solutions. If the Congress won't back them, and the people aren't willing to bring the Congress to heel, then there is nothing Obama can do. As for bi-partisanship... it's a fantasy. The Republicans are no longer interested in bi-partisan solutions. They are interested in absolute, total control of every aspect of our culture. And they are willing to do anything to get it. Promising not to bring them to justice for their crimes has failed twice now (with the Clinton and with Obama administrations). The next time they take the White House will likely be the end of whatever is left of our tattered democracy -- and I doubt any of my fellow Americans will even notice.
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back the orginal topic of the thread....RACE....
I ask a question...
Is it racist to vote FOR someone just because of their color? I would say yes...
Is it racist to vote AGAINST someone just beacuse of their color? I would say yes...
Is racism acceptable for the Black community against all others, but not acceptable for anyone else? ...just look around and you let me know what you see...
Me personally...I am SICK and TIRED of the whole thing...
I'm tired of hearing about it
I'm tired of talking about it
I'm tired of politicans using it
I'm tired of PC and code language used
Just give it a rest people!!! Judge people by what they do and who they are...all this other stuff is just stupid and tiresome...
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in ref. to #4 squirrelist:
"Eh? For one thing, how many centuries? And for another, I think you will find the majority of administrations after Lincoln in 1861 had Republican majorities in the Congress."
I think you will find that that was not the case in Louisiana until the late 20th century, eg. Gov. Treen (R) 1980. The previous Republican Gov. began and ended his administration in 1877. So youre right to a degree; it was just over a century of Democratic rule.
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Ref 116 PhillyFriend-
"What would these same people say had we descended into a 1930's era depression?"
We are still standing in the very center of a huge brier patch. The economy is reacting in a positive direction out of the briers with the small steps that we have taken to remove ourselves from the briers thus far. Each step is taken only when the entangling, thorny vines have been cleared aside at a painful cost. There are many, many more steps ahead before the sting and tear of the briers are at our backs. It will take years to extract ourselves from this brier patch.
The two major political parties are engaging in a terrible gamble as they bicker like children instead of clearing a path out of our miserable situation. They are not necessarily leading us in the best interest of the Nation. They are leading us in the best interest of their Party. The gamble is to gain long-term party loyalty from a larger majority of the electorate; thus establishing a long-term line of rule for that Political Party.
Each Political Party reads the latest opinion polls to measure public reaction to the agony of each step, and plan their self-interested next move. "We the People..." are their willing servants in this political game as we are thrown upon the briers to clear the path. They read patterns into our daily reactions to a wide variety of reporting from an even wider variety of sources in order to evaluate what Ms. and Mr. America holds dear to their wants and needs.
The question is; just how far can each party stretch the heart-strings of "We the People..." before they snap? When will "We the People..." take to the streets? When will "We the People..." take up arms against our government? Each of these are steps towards insurrection. Not revolution. Bloody, chaotic insurrection. (Think Boston Massacre; not Yorktown. Look at the time line between the two events) Revolution is yet another step beyond insurrection.
There are a lot of computer-based tools available for the current Political Parties to use in their analysis and to support their next move. These tools are in use by the Political Parties. These tools are based on historical models and logical projections into the future based upon historic facts and current social philosophies.
The gamble is; will "We the People..." continue repeating our historic patterns of behavior? Or will we deviate from those patterns? This is a big gamble. Computers do not think; they only process data and report anticipated results.
Thus far we are behaving well. We listen to our particular "voice of reason", no matter how unreasonable that voice may be, and fall upon the briers for them so that the two major Political Parties can walk upon our backs without themselves becoming ensnared in the brambles.
How long will "We the People..." allow ourselves to be lead in this way?
That is the gamble.
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121. At 03:14am on 19 Jan 2010, M Bergman wrote:
News flash...the democrates have a SUPER majority in Congress and the Senate, plus the White house...if they where so sure that the proposals they wanted where so good for the people...they have the full ability to do so with NO interferrence of your hated "R"s
The truth is that even other democrats realize this is bad policy. Bad policy is bad policy no matter the author...
Making excuses for "your team" is what is destroying this country....
WAKE UP and stop making excuses...hold ALL politicians accountable and then and only then will "we the people" will get a better system...until then..as long as people like you refuse to hold "their team" accountable..we will continue this train wreck of a system...
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In Ref. to #4 again:
And as of 2009 the Louisiana legislature still has not been majority Republican since Reconstruction in the 1870s.
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#110. At 11:40pm on 18 Jan 2010, colonelartist wrote: "Fell for a woman's tears? This is what women do, if every other stratgy fail, they have this final and lethal strategy.."
I don't recall Margaret Thatcher ever crying to gain votes.
Off-topic, why is it that you almost always use two full-stops/periods at the end of a sentence? Three periods are an ellipsis but two mean nothing. One is sufficient.
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Watching the news tonight, there was a huge contrast between the people helping the Haitians and the terrorists' destruction.
The Americans and other countries' aid workers have been busy helping others, some spending hours just to rescue even one person from the rubble.
Then you see the footage of the Taliban harming/murdering people in an instant.
It really puts things in perspective and shows how much Americans and other countries value human life as compared to the Taliban and terrorists.
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124. At 03:28am on 19 Jan 2010, publiusdetroit wrote:
How long will "We the People..." allow ourselves to be lead in this way?
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You nailed it...The rubblings of an american political revolution are already underway..all you have to do is open your eyes...
The system is broken...the politics of party games has brought us to the edge of destruction...the people who pay attention are outraged and disgusted and are DEMANDING leadership FOR the people...screw the D's and R's...our founding fathers hated politcal parties for the same reasons we see now so clearly before us and you so skillfully indicated...
A storm of the ages is brewing...batten down the hatches..because its coming sooner than many realize...
There is a old saying: "When the people are ready, the leader will emerge"...the people are ready...who will lead us? Who indeed?
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WAKE UP and stop making excuses...hold ALL politicians accountable and then and only then will "we the people" will get a better system...until then..as long as people like you refuse to hold "their team" accountable..we will continue this train wreck of a system...
Do you mean this to imply that we should hold President Obama accountable? If thats the case then I'd have to ask what exactly should we be holding him and his administration accountable for? Its only been a year if anything you should be telling this to the fans of bush and wait three more years until we have the accountability discussion with our current pres
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back the orginal topic of the thread....RACE....
I ask a question...
Is it racist to vote FOR someone just because of their color? I would say yes...
Is it racist to vote AGAINST someone just beacuse of their color? I would say yes...
Is racism acceptable for the Black community against all others, but not acceptable for anyone else? ...just look around and you let me know what you see...
Me personally...I am SICK and TIRED of the whole thing...
I'm tired of hearing about it
I'm tired of talking about it
I'm tired of politicans using it
I'm tired of PC and code language used
Just give it a rest people!!! Judge people by what they do and who they are...all this other stuff is just stupid and tiresome...
Ok i think that race relations in America need to be discussed this issue has beeen ignored for so long we as black people heck, as minorites have been ignored for so long America has a long violent bloody racist past with us African Americans a past you really don't seem to understand, I mean it would be wonderful if we were all judged by our actions instead of our color but unfortunately the American psyche has not caught up with this idea, even now We as African Americans and Americans in general are still suffering the long term psychological damage of a country that is founded on such ideals as slavery, genocide, xenophobia, racism, sexism and ethnic cleansing
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130. At 03:57am on 19 Jan 2010, CementedMinds
Do you mean this to imply that we should hold President Obama accountable? If thats the case then I'd have to ask what exactly should we be holding him and his administration accountable for? Its only been a year if anything you should be telling this to the fans of bush and wait three more years until we have the accountability discussion with our current pres
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You make my point...why do use ASSUME that I like the previous president or his policies....Knock off the RED vs. BLUE kid stuff...
If Bush's policies where so wrong and terrible because he has an "R" next to his name then how come the exact same policies are ok if Obama does it with a "D" next to his...
I don't see the usuall anti-govt crowd in the streets? Is this because they don't really have any core principles, but are political tools only to be used against their "perceived" political enemies...organized by the democratic party machine?
this president flat out lied to us about how he would govern as a centrist and has turned out to be the most secretive, leftist leader we have ever had...if you're ok with politicians doing whatever they have to do to get elected and screwing the people as long as they are on "your team"...then you are the enemy of the people and mine...and are a Major part of the reason we continue to get such terrible politicans year after year..
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I don't see the usuall anti-govt crowd in the streets? Is this because they don't really have any core principles, but are political tools only to be used against their "perceived" political enemies...organized by the democratic party machine?
this president flat out lied to us about how he would govern as a centrist and has turned out to be the most secretive, leftist leader we have ever had...if you're ok with politicians doing whatever they have to do to get elected and screwing the people as long as they are on "your team"...then you are the enemy of the people and mine...and are a Major part of the reason we continue to get such terrible politicans year after year..
You don't see the usual anti government crowd in the streets because the current president is not starting unnecessary wars and adopting policies of fear to get us to do what he wants.i think this presidents objective is to not do the things that compel people to protest in the first place he simply hasn't been in office long enough for me to really say the hes a terrible president or even a great president we still have a long way to go before we can tell what impact he has had on this coutry
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re: 132 CuriousDude
Might I suggest that ideology has formed the bedrock of electoral politics for a long time, and that it is likely to do so for a long time to come?
Furthermore, the Democratic and Republican parties represent two fairly clearly delineated ideological tendencies that constitute the fabric of political culture in your country. They are not institutions imposed on you from afar by aliens. There is something about the things most Americans hold true and dear that gives these parties their particular form and content. And yes, participating in politics in a nation of 300 million people is going to be rather, um, symbolic for most people.
Of course, if you don't like either of the established parties, you can go to teabag rallies, or vote for Ron Paul. But, hey, just for fun, why not vote for Ralph Nader, since you are so down on ideology? You might also want to stock up on ammo and live out in a cave in the bush. Or whine about 'revolution' on internet blogs.
It's a free country, or so I'm told.
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Ref 129 CuriousAmerican-
By 1776 the Colonies had active, well-recognized, trusted leaders well trained in Colonial Politics. Where are the Jeffersons, Adamses, Franklins, Rushes, Williamses, McKeans & co.? What States have well-functioning Governors and Legislatures, not controlled by the two major Political Parties, who could fill the power vacuum once the current Federal Government is deposed? Is there a George, or Georgia Washington out there who will win the hearts and support of his, or her, countrymen?
Many people have the illusion that the Revolutionary War suddenly started in Lexington and Concord, Massachusetts when a handful of armed men dared to challenge the British Army advancing inland out of Boston. The seeds were actually sewn 70 years earlier during the Queen Ann's War when Britain could not provide adequate aid and defense to the British Colonies in the "New World" against the French Colonies. The Colonists learned how to provide for the larger part of their own defense against the French. Colonial governments gained substantial power. Colonist began to recognize that they could rule their own Colonies and could effectively combine resources and enter into strong, mutual relationships with the other, politically separate Colonies. The tradition of Self-government stretched back to 1619 with the House of Burgesses in the Colony of Virginia.
Successful Revolution does not happen overnight. It is a long process.
How many people are ready and able to risk losing everything they now have; no matter how desperate they feel the pain of this current economy, to gamble that something better may possibly be achieved through violent revolt against the current government?
My very successful, wealthy, Colonial ancestors lost ships, land, slaves, indentured servants, money and lives during the Revolutionary War. Much of the wealth went to the support of the Continental Congress and the Continental Armed Forces. It was never fully recovered. Wilderness lands in Pennsylvania and New York were given in partial repayment. My ancestors had to start from scratch, once again.
How many citizens today are truthfully willing to pay that price?
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108. At 11:35pm on 18 Jan 2010, colonelartist wrote:
The first 14 or 15 postings, plus a few more here and there, dealt directly with the topic brought up by Mark. As it happens so often, after we ran out of things to say on the subject matter we quickly moved on to other subjects.
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And I noticed that you all ran out of things on this topic faster than your usuual running speed..Does the topic frighten you?
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And the bickering and nastiness has been sharp and insistent. Mark has told us that tomorrow he will report on discontent with the president - but we cannot preserve even that much balance.
Tragedy bombarding us all from Haiti incessantly, more general malaise among all of us who were recently Hopeful of Obama's leadership - that hope seeming to founder under partizan bickering in his own ranks... and we seem to have neither courage nor convictions to match the blind killing frenzy on the Right.
I suppose because I no longer toe the Republican party line, I am one of those 'Rural independents' - at least the name feels like a fit. But the innuendos attached sound like something from the mouth of your favorite TV pundit - catchy but without content.
Once again we are in danger of letting them do our thinking for us. Please don't do that! If you have convictions, get out and do something constructive with them. You will feel better.
I'm working on a new motto: Do something that is indispensable, Be(the) human.
Everywhere I turn, at work, in the market, in my neighborhood, in discussions, I search for the person who will take ownership of what is needed at the moment. Machines and programs can only follow the program. Too many of us are unwittingly following the program, and not taking responsibility for what we have the power to speak to.
KScurmudgeon, in winter
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131. At 04:14am on 19 Jan 2010, CementedMinds wrote:
Ok i think that race relations in America need to be discussed this issue has beeen ignored for so long we as black people heck, as minorites have been ignored for so long America has a long violent bloody racist past with us African Americans a past you really don't seem to understand, I mean it would be wonderful if we were all judged by our actions instead of our color but unfortunately the American psyche has not caught up with this idea, even now We as African Americans and Americans in general are still suffering the long term psychological damage of a country that is founded on such ideals as slavery, genocide, xenophobia, racism, sexism and ethnic cleansing
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ok...here we go....lets get down to it shall we....
Here is my two cents..then you can tell me I'm a racist for challenging your hatred of people you don't know...
First of all lets get this out of the way..I'm of mixed heritige myself, a little bit of everthing thrown in...a "Mutt" if you will...
In my opinion...The basis of this hatred you have of others you don't know is based on your self-description of being a member of a "class" of people of whom PAST wrongs are a part of your TODAY...How far do you want to take this past wrongs thing? Deciding to cary the pain of the past is not a virtue...it will only hurt yourself...and your children..
I disagree with your statement that the American people are not capable to reach the dream of MLK of judging by the content of people's character. Just look around when you go to the malls and see how many mixed couples you see and how many looks they DON'T get. Its normal and acceptable and part of the norm.
...still suffering the long term psychological damage of a country that is founded on such ideals as slavery, genocide, xenophobia, racism, sexism and ethnic cleansing....Ok on this one I have to say you are really reaching and LOOKING for a reason to hate other people...Who living today did any of these things to you? Who looks at race as a primary filter..who hates others for things that they did not do...YOU..
I would make the case that racism and hatred of others that look different than them is alive in well in the USA...but it is the African-American community that holds it in their hearts and cannot let it go...I say this with a heavy heart..and with honest concern...This is NOT heathly, helpful or right...If the desire is to rid the world of biggots and haters...we must first start with our own hearts and minds...
Thankfully...as time goes on and the old guard of stupidity dies away..the new generations will look at life with their own personal life experiences and say "Mom was wrong, (blank) people are just like me"..
Like I tell my kids...if someone has a problem with you, its their problem, not yours.
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My very successful, wealthy, Colonial ancestors lost ships, land, slaves, indentured servants, money and lives during the Revolutionary War. Much of the wealth went to the support of the Continental Congress and the Continental Armed Forces. It was never fully recovered. Wilderness lands in Pennsylvania and New York were given in partial repayment. My ancestors had to start from scratch, once again.
How many citizens today are truthfully willing to pay that price?
I can't feel too bad for your ancestors because it was my ancestors that were the ones who actually did the work, it was your ancestors that decided they were too lazy to do their own work and generate their own wealth so they kidnapped my people and forced them to work for them not to mention the native Americans you killed off in order to live her in the first place and not to mention the resources your ancerstors raped from other countries in order to give themselves more powerand money that they don't deserve
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Re: 8. At 12:16pm on 18 Jan 2010, SaintDominick wrote:
"I don't expect all his policies to be successful or produce the desired results, but at least he [Obama] is trying which is more than can be said for some of his predecessors."
Well I dunno - wasn't GWB very trying?
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Ref 134 chronophobe-
Good to see you posting on this blog again.
"Might I suggest that ideology has formed the bedrock of electoral politics for a long time, and that it is likely to do so for a long time to come?"
It seems that many posters expect that solutions will happen instantly and the multitude of problems we face will be solved overnight if only their particular Political Party reigns supreme. The magic of McDonald's. Order a hamburger and fries now; and by the time you get out your wallet to pay for them your food is set before you. It only takes the police, detectives, and judge one hour to bring justice full term on an episode of Law and Order
We have become an impatient people standing in a fast food line.
I agree with you that current political ideology has been developing over a long time; and it will take a long to to bring about any of the varied changes being called for by an impatient citizenry.
Although; insurrection will do it much faster, at a far greater cost.
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135. At 04:45am on 19 Jan 2010, publiusdetroit wrote:
How many citizens today are truthfully willing to pay that price?
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Once again, you are 120% on the money...who indeed will give up their TV and comforts to really do something about all this?
Where are the Franklins, Adams, Jeffersons and other giants among men that are willing to stand and pledge their lives, furtunes and sacred honor to a cause greater than their own? Sadly they don't exist in this modern time....
The american experiment was a first in human history, with means, methods, ability and timing all coming together to create something special and without precedent...it will take time..yes..but a "time of choosing" is close...
If the 2010 mid-terms don't put people in that represent the people...the system will be proven broken..all good will will be lost and the people will rise up and install a new system....revolutions are never a straight line and once the dogs of war are unleashed, unintended consequences are the name of the game.
If History is to be our guide...it may get worse...a lot worse..before it gets better...
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Can you specify where i said i hated people instead of just making some long pointless statement. Look i never said that america WASN'T capable of realizing his dream i said we haven't caught up with that idea as a NATION. I'd love to not carry the pain of the past if this country if it would stop inflicting it on me and my people you obviously live in some kind of bubble where racism doesnt exist and blacks are not treated as second class citizen. You obviously don't know the history of this country, cause if you truly understood i don't think you would of said half the things you did. You don't understand that the things that happened 400+ years ago still affect us today. Just because slavery ended does not mean that everything is ok. Even after slavery ended we were still hunted down and killed for wanting to be treated like a human being/. My great uncle was lynched for voting which happened in 1940 around the same time that Jews were being exterminated in Germany so would you tell a Jewish person it happened a long time ago and it doesn't matter now. You need to read a book calle a peoples history of the united states by Howard Zinn then we can have a valid discussion about this countries history and the affects it STILL has on African Americans
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I heard a little 'sound portrait' on the BBC World Service overnight. It was primary school children--in Chicago, I think it was --voicing the 'questions they'd like to ask Martin Luther King if he was still here'.
The last one seemed somehow to encapsulate just what, perhaps, underlies some of those conversations in the barber's shop; what is so necessary from Obama, and, judging from so many posts here, what so many seem to fear from him:
"What else are you going to change?"
(PS: Mr Gregson of No 139: We do the jokes around here. Americans like their politicians 'tried and tested'. Unfortunately, all too often the ones they want to be tried aren't the ones who deserve to be.)
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The most clear-sighted perspective I've read on race in the U.S. is Shelby Steele's "White Guilt." This slim, elegant book peels away the emotion and rhetoric and gives you insight, clear facts and honest principles. His story of the civil rights era, and what happened after, is particularly meaningful on a day we honor Dr. King. Please be respectful in your posts.
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Ref 138 CementedMinds-
"I can't feel too bad for your ancestors because it was my ancestors that were the ones who actually did the work, it was your ancestors that decided they were too lazy to do their own work and generate their own wealth so they kidnapped my people and forced them to work for them not to mention the native Americans you killed off in order to live her in the first place and not to mention the resources your ancerstors raped from other countries in order to give themselves more powerand money that they don't deserve"
I mention the extent of my ancestors wealth as a way of illustrating that even the wealthy suffer great loss during a revolution. I do not bemoan those loses. I do not find any record showing that my ancestors bemoaned their loses. I do find records that they took great pride in their contribution for creating this Nation.
Us ascendants do not expect any recompense for the loses of our ancestors. We do share their pride in the contribution our family made, and continue to make, to this Nation.
My ancestors took to heart that fine concept, "All men are created equal."; and in celebration of the Declaration of Independence made freemen of all there slaves and indentured servants. Granting the new freemen their choice to remain on the lands and work for pay; help in acquiring their own land; or find their own means as they chose. Records also show that most all the freemen stayed to work for wages. I hope that is an indication my ancestors had treated them well. I do not know if that is fact.
My Grandfather was of the Santee tribe. His parents escaped the genocide by passing as French and migrating to Chicago. They didn't want to fall under the guns of the Buffalo Soldiers. ;-)
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142. At 05:24am on 19 Jan 2010, CementedMinds wrote: I'd love to not carry the pain of the past if this country if it would stop inflicting it on me and my people you obviously live in some kind of bubble where racism doesnt exist and blacks are not treated as second class citizen. You obviously don't know the history of this country,...
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I am delighted to know many blacks who approach life with positive, can-do attitudes. They are competent, committed, and winners in every way. No,they are not, generally, athletes or musicians or any other 'black' stereotype. Two I think of immediately are in sciences, professional, skilled laboratory workers who take responsibility, deliver the goods, take nothing untoward from anyone, and have earned fulsome respect from everyone in the organization, which depends on their competence, good sense, and yes, good spirits. The world will belong to them. That they are black women is no matter - even the obvious racists in the organization cannot hold that against them. They are too genuine and too valuable to be discounted in any way.
The attitude you are projecting - your identification with injury - defeats you, as it would defeat me - as it has defeated me when I looked back and made it my future. The color of your skin, the features of your face, the history of your kin does not determine your prospects. Not today. My great uncle was murdered in 1940 because of his work as a labor organizer. He tried to make things better for the people he knew.
Attitude is everything. Your heart poisons your own future, You are your own enemy. Why do you foul your own nest?
KScurmudgeon
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141. At 05:18am on 19 Jan 2010, CuriousAmerican wrote:
"If the 2010 mid-terms don't put people in that represent the people...the system will be proven broken..all good will will be lost and the people will rise up and install a new system..."
I'd like to get this clear in my mind. Who are these "people" who are not represented, or fear they will not be? Who are these people who will withdraw (not 'lose') their "good will" -- and "good will" to what or to whom? And who are these people who will "rise up"? And who will they 'rise up' against?
And what "new system" is wished for?
(The squirrels mutter in my earpiece that they suspect it won't be a Marxist anti-capitalist one. . .I don't know how they got that impression.)
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Ref 147 squirrelist-
"And what "new system" is wished for?"
Ajidamoo (Mods: this means, Little Bear; Squirrel),
The Red Party ajidamoo here in the States have been listening from their tree limbs. It will be a Tea Party. :-D
Care for a Hob Nob with your cuppa?
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A conversation between three people at the weekend:
"I don't think he [Obama] is going to get anywhere any more."
"He's got a terrible mess to fix. He can't go too fast. He's got the right ideas."
[Grudgingly:] "If he sticks with them."
"He needs time."
"They won't want to give him that."
"He's clever, though; he might make it yet."
"He can still change things, I'm sure."
"I hope he does."
(Between two people who have lived in the USA, and one who hasn't. I have a question for some people who have posted here. Of those three, how many were black?
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148. At 06:21am on 19 Jan 2010, publiusdetroit wrote:
"It will be a Tea Party. :-D"
And who will be the Mad Hatter presiding? Sarah Palin along with a Foxy army of Trigger-happy wolves? 'Chronophobe' wrote of 'ideologies'. The feeling I get is that what's developing in the US are not conflicting political ideologies, but a converging one that's reactionary in the sense of just 'reacting'. But what to? For some, it's obviously the inequities (and iniquities) of history; for many it seems to be the fear that a philosophy that founded a nation-state 200 years ago cannot hold up any more. Or is it both? It's like two men each blind in different eyes looking at the same thing but not really seeing it.
I blame whoever popularised that idea that "the business of America is business". So it's gone sour for a lot of people a lot of times this last century; but in the meantime, the idea that politics can fix things seems to have atrophied and there are no alternatives.
I can only say, to an outsider, the whole process, and wondering how it will end in 20 years or so, has a kind of horrible fascination.
Maybe people need Ajidamoo to get some light back.
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Squirrelpost:
This is an appeal. In yet another exercise of American capitalist world hegemony, Kraft is taking over Cadbury, makers of the squirrels' favourite hazelnut chocolate. And we can't buy American. It would compromise our principles. Donations of pre-takeover nutty choccy bars are urgently required to prevent mass squirrel starvation until alternatives are found.
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I have one question. Given that we are all the same, why are black people singled out for their opinion? Would the BBC canvass whites only for their view of Obama? Absolutely not so why blacks? Surely you should canvass "citizens" This is irrelevant drivel. No one group’s opinion should be sought over the opinion of another. What about the Chinese view or Indian view or even dare I say it the white point of view? Canvass a cross section and then compare and contrast but no this is beyond the comprehension of your politically correct editorial board. The BBC is so politically correct I have to suggest that it has become inversely racist.
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Ref 150 squirrelist-
I keep looking to find a common thread woven through the fabric of the past 50-60 years. What I find is an unraveling rope. Divisiveness into many factions. An antiquated education system sending Johnny out the door with a college diploma he may not be able to read. Divided families were divorced parents play against each other with their children either being pull-toys, or ignored. Knotted families where parents make all the decisions and never teach their children how to make good choices. Careers ambitions that demand 80 hour, 7 day weeks. Consumer advertising telling us our lives will be so much better if we only had a certain widget. Evangelists predicting the end of time is just around the corner. An unreasonable fear of death. The expectation of entitlements. Demands for absolute safety and protection...
The list goes on and on. The task of re-laying the unraveled strands of the rope needing all hands; much cooperation and coordinated effort; and intelligent, trusted leadership.
Solutions are stalled because too many only want to watch and make fun of other peoples efforts.
If enough people can begin to see the terrible consequences that lay ahead of us for our divisiveness and commit to re-laying the rope that attaches us to our secure anchorage, there is a chance our Nation will survive.
Until then; I see us drifting towards a rocky shore of destruction.
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152. Jonathan Scott:
That's ridiculous. The significance of the day has obviously escaped you entirely. But I presume, had it not, you would have insisted that a BBC correspondent interviewed a relative of James Earl Ray to provide 'balance'.
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Since Mark's next piece will be on "discontent with the President" if people were to read this article in advance in The Nation I won't need to bother posting anything.
(Gives me more time to devote to the now urgent search for alternative choccy bars.)
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153. At 08:04am on 19 Jan 2010, publiusdetroit wrote:
"Until then; I see us drifting towards a rocky shore of destruction."
Well, if people will insist on believing the ship's unsinkable and won't provide enough lifeboats for all those on board. . .
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A regular guy! As opposed to what, my friend? Unlike some – alleged - idiot in my newspaper yesterday – talking about the occupant of the White House – I am too late to affect the result on who replaces the late Edward Kennedy in a USA election today. But I chuckled at candidates insistence of his credentials for the Senatorial role. There are two main candidates – so I should mention his female opponent but back to “I am a regular guy” lol Did we ever resolve what “regular” meant in asking for a cup of “cawfee” over here in Great Britain? Big, small or medium size perhaps?
But what is a regular guy or woman I always ask? Tony Blair years back – said a similar thing about himself – remember? And we – Ok – I - constantly laugh when obviously ill suited persons try to “get down with the “Joe and Mary Ordinarys” – whatever that means. Yes Boris Johnson, Mayor of London – I do mean you sir. “Ethnic” was it – the word? lol
So American regular guy – who can have his photo taken without difficulty (How is Michael Howard, Rory Bremner? allegedly) it - "regular guy" phrase is said to get across to the electorate in that State you as a person - as opposed to the rather and allegedly alarming personages that put themselves forward for the GOP vacant posts usually perhaps? Well good luck both candidates. I off to find out what Regular Guido means here in blogsphere. "Foaming at the mouth" rings a bell - in Boston at least.
Subject: what a good city will be - really help
Anagram: wow bait holy cad - legit -replay hell
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I know this isn't really quite the right place, but the Monro Doctrine and the idea of hemispherical control is alive, well, and why should anyone believe Obama's comforting phrases about how US foreign policy has, or will, change?
From this article:
"The Haitian government, paralysed by the destruction of the presidential palace and ministries, signed a memorandum of understanding formally transferring control of Toussaint L'Ouverture airport to the US. . .
" 'There are 200 flights going in and out every day, which is an incredible amount for a country like Haiti," Jarry Emmanuel, air logistics officer for the UN's World Food Programme, told the New York Times. "But most flights are for the US military. Their priorities are to secure the country. Ours are to feed. . ." '
Guns before butter? Again?
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Re #111. "small center"...
Since I know, SaintDominick, that you know that I know a thing or two about Goddard SFC [not to be confused with KFC] I assume that your info is just pro domo sua as far as some other posters are concerned.
Been to White Sands couple of times, as well.
BTW. Have your ever been to LLL?
Another pretty nice small center located next to some pretty mean vinyards. And not too far from Hoover Inst. :-)
[not the N.M. doesn't have TWO nice small centers: LANL and Sandia.]
But going way to the topic of the day...
Mr. Obama has been visiting barber shops in Boston last weekend, trying to rally the Democratic vote in Mass.
How does this old lovely song goes which MM may not know?
"Dem votes, Dem votes Dem, Dem votes
Dem votes, Dem votes Dem, Dem votes
[...]
Oh praise the ways of the Lord"
Or something like that.
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153. publiusdetroit:
From Gary Younge in The Guardian:
"What the response to his election indicated was a sizeable constituency, both at home and abroad, for a shift towards greater peace and equality than the politics that dominated the last decade. But, given the entrenched interests in the American polity, no election by itself can deliver that. The distance between the aspirations invested in him during his campaign and his record after one year is the distinction between the electoral and the political in this current period. Popular demands thwarted by institutional stasis and ideological sclerosis."
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Quick question I thought sexist comments were not allowed, surely (crying) ‘that’s what women do’ is sexist?
Also apologies, well not really, people really need to get over the whole slave issue in Americas past. Yes it was bad, yes people suffered, no it should never be allowed to happen again BUT it is the past, no one alive today had any part in it, there is nothing anyone alive today can do about it.
One of my ancestors was a highwayman, I am not going to feel guilty about the people he robbed and/or killed (I don’t know if he killed anyone, but he was hanged). I am only responsible for my actions not of those who died before I was even a twinkle in my Dad’s eye.
I guess though that is the difference between the US and UK, both of us had slaves both of us have issues with racism, but with the US the wounds from slavery and the segregation that continued after are still fresh in your minds. It colours your thinking and is a weight that is keeping people from moving forward. History is meant to be a series of lessons you learn from, not a hair shirt of guilt to be worn as an identity.
Do people in the US realise that to most people outside the US the differences between the Republican and Democrat Presidents isn’t that noticeable? People on this side of the pond don’t like Reagan mostly because of his relationship with Thatcher, not because he was a Republican. Republicans aren’t evil they are just normally conservative and in recent years obsessed with letting Jonny foreigner know that America is the big kid in the play ground, which to Jonny normally makes the US look like a bully. Though obviously some of the Republican/conservative posters here won’t see that as a bad thing.
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And now I read about this. At one end of an island, in pours the US military. At another, 4,000 cruise shgip passengers dock at a private harbour protected by armed guards, pledging to 'not abandon Haiti now they need us most'.
Wrong harbour to unload aid, I think. And how many of those passengers--after generously giving up their spare sunloungers--will be disembarking to help dig people out of ruins, make soup, ferry supplies of water across the island, comfort the injured, dying or bereaved, help to bury the dead?
Too often, real life goes beyond satire. I feel sick.
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161. David Murrell:
Problem is that the Civil Rights struggle is only 40 years old. Whereas I presume your highwayman relative was hanged quite some time before that.
So nice to see a family tradition being kept up in a modern profession, btw. I'm sure he (she?) is comfortably approving from his (her?) current abode under Tyburn Hill.
OK, yes, I know, but you were a bit sexist about squirrel jokes being most likely to be made by a male, so I reckon you deserve that :-D
(Still not telling, either.)
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Squirrel – While I won’t disagree with you, there is a silver lining to this. About half the passengers are refusing to disembark and to be honest at this point that is about as much a protest that can make at this point. Also the liner and the other two still to dock there (yes even more fat happy tourists will be eating bbqs while a few miles away people starve), are bringing in aid.
I think Florida based company (ironic considering the Royal in the name) was wrong and those passengers getting off so they can enjoy themselves should be ashamed. I assume that the cruise set off before the quake so the passengers were already on board. For those passengers with enough respect to feel ashamed and stay on board, I feel no ire, the others I would like to meet for a drink preferably one in a nice dark alley.
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Re #111 [111 brings back pleasant memories of some flights over Libya during that wimp RR's reign]
Saint Dominick point out:
"In addition to managing and controlling most unmanned spacecraft, it also manages the TDRSS operations at White Sands, New Mexico"
I'm pleased you do know that there are some unmanned craft which are not controlled from Greenbelt. :-)))
[Nellis more like it]
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161. David Murrell:
To be serious for a moment, the idea of 'retribution', 'revenge', or 'payback' --and fear of being on the receiving end of someone who doesn't want to get mad, but even -- seems to me to be very pervasive in American society. I know I harp on about this a bit, but why else do the meaner, fiercer OT prophets so often get quoted in the US, instead of the Sermon on the Mount? There's an awful lot of 'smite thine enemy' and not much 'turn the other cheek'.
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Squirrel – Tyburn!!! I don’t think he was that infamous, just an Essex villain. The irony is within a few generations one of my ancestors was a copper, before we became morticians. I have seen the policeman has the same unfortunate simian look my Father’s line has, though thankfully it has softened over the years. It might have been the highwayman that had his wicked way with an exslave, giving us Murrell’s our distinctive colouring, thick lips and black hair, it seems genetics was not kind and gave us an unfortunate mix of features, though I was shocked recently that my lips made me the best kisser my mate’s wife ever knew (and no I don’t recall how she found this out)!
My Father always claims that ‘Cunning’ Murrell a 17th Century alchemist is one of our line. Famous, okay not that famous, for being the first British alchemist to use glass containers rather than metal to mix his chemicals.
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164. At 09:40am on 19 Jan 2010, David Murrell wrote:
"Squirrel – While I won’t disagree with you, there is a silver lining to this."
Well, all I can see is lightning in the thundercloud spelling out "What's the misery of 4 million compared to the pleasure of 4,000?"
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167. At 09:55am on 19 Jan 2010, David Murrell wrote: "just an Essex villain."
Q: How does an Essex highwayman hold up a stagecoach?
A: With both hands.
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Squirrel – Now this is probably going to annoy some of our American friends, and you know how I hate doing that, but I think it has something to do with their whole machismo attitude. I was watching a US programme (possibly not the best source of data) that said that more US policemen, firemen etc died than elsewhere because of the tendency to rush in to situations. Basically they were all at least partially obsessed with being heroes.
You look at the American heroic stereotype, from cowboys onwards they are action men, people who act first and ask questions later. Mercy and to a certain extent diplomacy are not seen as masculine disciplines. If someone wrongs you, you grab your gun and sort it out. I think that is also part of the problem they have with their government, they see it some how lessening to let others sort out their problems for them.
I know the American posters disparage Hollywood, but Hollywood films are in the first instance made for the American audience. Films like Die Hard, Death Wish etc reinforce this image of a lone hero settling scores and winning no matter the odds. I am not saying that this is Hollywood’s fault as I think it is just a continuation of an existing theme. Outside of the US Hollywood films are pretty much seen as bunk, good entertainment to switch your brain off for a few hours.
Obviously not every American thinks the same, but the US is a nation that promotes conformity, the whole pledge of allegiance thing, which leaves me both cold and a little unsettled. Blind faith, including fervent patriotism, is something I automatically distrust and large chunks of America seem to accept blind faith of all kinds without question.
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I. er, think I'd better leave now. . .
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Squirrel – Was that an Essex joke!?! Shame on you, may your nuts grow mould you naughty sciurudae, then again the European read squirrel is called sciurus vulgaris, so I shouldn’t be surprised!
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172. David Murrell:
Vulgar, indeed! We half-Italian squirrels wear our Armani coats with the label on the inside.
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172. David Murrell:
We squirrels do not take curses kindly, especially when made by descendants of magicians.
What do they call an Essex copper when he turns up on the doorstep?
A bad penny?
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I invoke the European Protected Species Act and the Wildlife and Countryside Act . . .Help!
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You look at the American heroic stereotype, from cowboys onwards they are action men, people who act first and ask questions later. Mercy and to a certain extent diplomacy are not seen as masculine disciplines. If someone wrongs you, you grab your gun and sort it out. I think that is also part of the problem they have with their government, they see it some how lessening to let others sort out their problems for them.
Americans have a tendency to rush into things assuming that they can fix whatever it is that's gone wrong, sometimes this is a good idea, sometimes not, their political set-up is a little rigid & politics in America seems as much about preventing progress as it is inspiring it.They tend to have views that are more inherited than developed.
There are those that see America as the greatest natural disaster that has ever befallen the planet but I disagree, I think it will be a lovely place when they've finished building it.
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Zaphodian – I agree with everything you wrote (especially the bit that came from my post), except the very last line. That is for two reasons: 1 – I am not sure that the rest of the world suits the American model. 2 – I think that America’s time of sufficient influence to alter the rest of the world is coming to an end, if it is not over already.
Despite what some might think/hope I don’t hate or even dislike the US, though I used to when I was younger. America is fine for Americans, though like everywhere it could do with a little work, I just wish that it didn’t have such an effect elsewhere. I don’t think the influence it has is entirely deliberate, part of it is others wanting to be like the big popular kid. Maybe it is growing up in the UK in the 70’s and seeing the country becoming more Americanised as time went on. Back in the past I saw the US influence more keenly than I do now.
As for you Squirrel, I will be having words with the greys living in the local cemetery, I am sure they can track you down and teach you how funny Essex jokes are.*
* Greys as in Squirrels not the aliens, because that would be silly. Everyone knows that the aliens are hiding in the local park.
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Zaphodian – I agree with everything you wrote (especially the bit that came from my post), except the very last line. That is for two reasons: 1 – I am not sure that the rest of the world suits the American model. 2 – I think that America’s time of sufficient influence to alter the rest of the world is coming to an end, if it is not over already.
I agree that America is no longer the dominant force that it once was & have no argument that what suits America doesn't always (if ever) sit happily with the rest of the world, however I am hoping that with the pressure off them to be the leader of everywhere & the eternal top dog they may yet come to terms with being just one of many countries & become at least politically nicer to have around.
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177. At 11:10am on 19 Jan 2010, David Murrell wrote:
"As for you Squirrel, I will be having words with the greys living in the local cemetery, I am sure they can track you down and teach you how funny Essex jokes are."
That's OK, I'll tell them the one about the Essex undertaker; they'll either be helpless with laughter or so angry they won't be able to move a whisker. Either way I should get a head start on them. . .
But on the other thing, the problem is that the US (especially the NeoCons and all those who dreamt up 'American Exceptionalism', 'The American Century' and so on) want to export an idea. But it's one that's based on resources, space, power and individual wealth when it comes down to basics. And you can't 'export' those to countries that don't have any of them. Especially not when the 'idea' seems to be coming from the barrel of a gun. (Whoever holds it--American or not.)
Obama half-articulated an alternative, I thought--trust, mutual respect, egalitarian assistance, self-determination, economic stability --but look how far that got.
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Zaphodian – Well that’s a nice hope, but I think some of the old guard might find that difficult to accept. Conservatives find it difficult to accept change, one of the main reasons they are conservative after all, it is part of the reason that they are angry/scared now. Most seem to hold a semi utopian idea of America’s golden age, about what made America great, while I am sceptical that this golden age is what they remember, they are certain and will remain determined to retain the remnants of that heroic past. One of the strengths they seem obsessed with is that it used to be the US’s way or the highway, the neo-con battle cry of ‘you are with us or against us.’
The problem with business and politics is that it is dominated by the conservative element, men, and some women, who have gained their position through the existing status quo and will do pretty much anything to keep that position. I believe that much of Bush’s administration was coloured by this neo-con old guard trying to convince the American public and the rest of the world that the status quo was still in force, sadly for them while they were in effect beating their chests, some parts of the world quietly got on with their own agendas. Personally I think internationally the neo-con movement is a spent force, sadly many of them and their conservative supporters don’t see it that way.
Things won’t change for America until most of these relics have been replaced. Hopefully this will happen quicker than it did in the UK where certain sections of the establishment lived under the delusion that the UK was a force to be reckoned with decades after it was true. Some could say that Thatcher, Blair and Brown are remnants of that belief, trying to make the UK punch above its weight. For the UK the empire is gone and it is time to recognise that. For the US this may be the final days of their empire (figuratively speaking) and it would probably be best to move on and consolidate what remains and accept their approaching position. If they can successfully do that then your hope (and mine) will be realised. Just don’t hold your breath.
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I've always likened the Americans (however unfairly) to cats, they can be nice to have around & quite warm if you cosy up to them but like cats they're always certain just who's in charge & will bite if rubbed the wrong way. It also goes some way to explain why changing their attitudes is proving so difficult for Obama, cats only play when there's something in it for them.
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Wow this thread has gone sort of nice and fluffy (I miss fluffy), I am guessing that the storm will hit the next thread, so batten down the hatches lads (sorry Squirrel I guess lads is a bit sexist so please choose from lads/lasses/ladses) I think its going to be a bumpy one.
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180. At 11:52am on 19 Jan 2010, David Murrell wrote:
" Most seem to hold a semi utopian idea of America’s golden age"
So often, the 'Golden Age' seems to be articulated as single events, or single individuals, doesn't it? the War of Independence and Washington; Lincoln and the Gettysburg Address; Teddy Roosevelt; Truman and the victory over Japan; the Korean War; Kennedy and Cuba; Martin Luther King; Reagan and the USSR . . .
The 'pioneer' thing doesn't really work any more now it's sunk in about the costs and what horrors were inflicted; so there isn't a 'Native American' 'golden age' either. And the sort of popular cultural 'golden age' of the 20's got damaged by the Wall Street Crash.
And (as we see all too often here) no-one will adopt a 'golden age' myth from the Greeks, Romans, Arabs of Al-Andaluz, Moghul Empire in India, Pharaonic Egypt or whatever. Everything previous to 1776 is kind of wiped out, almost.
(Just musing. Heaven help us when the usual suspects come back--one's preoccupied in 'Europe' fortunately, demanding reparations from France for Haiti, heaven help us--and see this.)
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183. At 12:21pm on 19 Jan 2010, squirrelist wrote:
180. At 11:52am on 19 Jan 2010, David Murrell wrote:
" Most seem to hold a semi utopian idea of America’s golden age"
So often, the 'Golden Age' seems to be articulated as single events, or single individuals, doesn't it? the War of Independence and Washington; Lincoln and the Gettysburg Address; Teddy Roosevelt; Truman and the victory over Japan; the Korean War; Kennedy and Cuba; Martin Luther King; Reagan and the USSR . . .
Every stage in America is always portrayed as a victory over one adversary or another, the continuity suggested is just the gaps between these incidents, in a culture where winning is everything it gets confusing once the adversary is themselves, a peaceful 'Golden Age' is all very well but where do the movie ideas come from then? There possibly was an American Utopia but it was hushed up due to the lack of excitement.
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182. At 12:19pm on 19 Jan 2010, David Murrell wrote:
"Wow this thread has gone sort of nice and fluffy (I miss fluffy)"
Don't we all. Victim of a few predators who don't like being bitten by native species with fluffy tails, I suspect. Wrecks the cosy (??!!!!) unanimity. . .
"I am guessing that the storm will hit the next thread, so batten down the hatches"
Lifejacket ready; waterwings inflated; swimming lessons done. Been practising flashing 'SOS' in morse. . .Anything else we need? Mark likes to live dangerously, doesn't he? Think I might stay here; don't much fancy clinging to the wreckage.
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184. zaphodian:
That's the conclusion I--and a lot of my friends--keep coming to, but I keep asking myself 'Why?".
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Ref 170, David
"Mercy and to a certain extent diplomacy are not seen as masculine disciplines."
I suspect President Obama learned this lesson the hard way.
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Oh dear. I saw something on the new thread that gave me such a shock I think somebody'd better call out the lifeboats.
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186. At 12:57pm on 19 Jan 2010, squirrelist wrote:
That's the conclusion I--and a lot of my friends--keep coming to, but I keep asking myself 'Why?".
Why? I'm not sure myself but I think it may have to with the extraordinary success that America has had over the years, now only over-achievement means anything & even just winning is frowned upon unless done in overwhelming measures, not winning isn't something America wants to get used to & just taking part isn't an option. Utopia for most Americans appears to be America & their expectations are impossible.
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182 fluffy would be so touched for that , i think. if he was not a little "touched" anyway;)
Unfortunately he can no longer be with us. He was run over by a right hummer.;)
Still his spirit lives on.
I see he has been seen in corporeal form busy on NPR with pictures of the wounds.
Lucy 99
"If Chelsea ever wanted to run for an office, I would highly support her. "
WHY because she is a woman and a clinton. Wow !now I can see your bias.
OMG I feel so foolish not to see you were a "Clintonite against change"
That puts you into a whole new light.
Not a good one either BTW.;) lol thanks for the laugh I needed that.
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@16 (StD) "Considering the state of our market forces, the problems our corporations and the economy at large continue to have, I think it is unrealistic to expect those who need as much help as the unemployed to lead the way to anything but bankruptcy.
We need to pursue energy independence and invest in the development of new energy sources and new technologies, we need to invest in infrastructure, education, and ways to reduce our debt, rather than focusing on illusions and expecting miracles where none are going to happen."
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with your statements on energy and new technologies and infrastructure. Education needs a careful filter...I'm perfectly happy to make Federal investments in buildings, paper, pencils, computer platforms, and the maintenance of same. I'm much less enthused about investing Federal monies in teachers or books, preferring that the locals take care of that aspect of it.
I'm not sure how we invest in ways to reduce our debt, especially since we have a government that has consistently refused to be honest about it since before I was born. Got suggestions?
@53 (StD) Minor note: The daughter of one of my fellow engineers was on a medical staff in Grenada before and at the time of the incident in the 1980s (I believe she was a nurse, but it's been too long). When she returned home to TN, she was interviewed by one of the Nashville TV stations about her experiences. She reported firsthand what actually took place, indicating that there really WERE some things going on in-country that needed attention, and then told the interviewers that "you'll never publish this, because it doesn't fit with what you want viewers to hear." She was correct...they didn't.
This is one reason why I tend to view "news" sources with a more and more skeptical eye as time goes on. I haven't found a "side" yet that's not willing to twist the facts to suit their agenda. Fortunately, facts continue to exist even if there's no "side" to co-opt them...just got to keep digging to ferret them out, and recognize that facts that come easy may not be accurate or complete.
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137 I'm so glad we don't have lychings anymore so things must be great.
cemented minds keep it up. as you might have noticed the names people give themselves here can be a little telling and a little deceptive. Obviously there is little curiosity in some though they may well be american.
PS I am no general;) and only a prisoner of sorts.
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134 chrono
"It's a free country, or so I'm told. " lol yea sure. I know who told you that. They told me the same thing. Then I moved here;(
143squirrelist
"Unfortunately, all too often the ones they want to be tried aren't the ones who deserve to be.)"
and the ones that should be tried are not.
151 Squirrelist .fruit and hazel nut by "green and blacks" (made in Italy) local offices to you.
Also Organic.
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170
"Squirrel – Now this is probably going to annoy some of our American friends, and you know how I hate doing that, but I think it has something to do with their whole machismo attitude. I was watching a US programme (possibly not the best source of data) that said that more US policemen, firemen etc died than elsewhere because of the tendency to rush in to situations. Basically they were all at least partially obsessed with being heroes."
for example a very very very tall building that is burning because it was hit by an airplane?
Brave and courageous yes .but did it help?
I don't really know . Honestly. But I suspect it just added to the casualties.
and a subject that is very sore in the states to this day.If and when it gets raised.
As too the blind faith and patriotism. I'm with you there.
like cement says it could be a great place, they just are too busy trying to be strong.
I tried to raise the issue that russia being smart was not the same as russia being "beaten" it missed it's mark because the mark was too busy looking to say"we are power"
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181 zap. and republicans are also the most cat like of people.
there is a cartoon out there called "get fuzzy"
Bucky is very republican.;)
179 lol squirrelist there I was thinking the old editor JW made that term up (A.E.)(TBAAI)to be american about it)
186. At 12:57pm on 19 Jan 2010, squirrelist wrote:
184. zaphodian:
That's the conclusion I--and a lot of my friends--keep coming to, but I keep asking myself 'Why?"."
because consistant hard work and plodding are not as exciting as heroic deal.
simple really. A nice enough place in a permanent state of fantasy.
I see life styles based on those fantasies so often. Blacksmiths that read the Poem before they learnt the trade.
fantasy land.
not just california.
why so much escapism in the land of the free? that does confuse me, unless they are just not free enough.
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Re 143 squirrelist opines:
"Americans like their politicians 'tried and tested'. Unfortunately, all too often the ones they want to be tried aren't the ones who deserve to be."
But you of course know which ones are right for us and are going to tell us, right? :-)
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Since in Massachusetts a ratio of Dems to Reeps is 3:1 we're waiting now for yet another walkower by Democrat.
She can't possibly lose there, can she now?
P.S. Plenty of parachutes with food and water over Haiti.
Let me guess: it's the United Nations! :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
And what's that hovering over a destroyed presidential palace?
It's a bird, its a plane!"
Nope, its U.S. Marines' helos.
[what a dissapointment ;(]
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"the Elysee Palace has issued a statement explicitly praising the US for its lead role in the emergency, and denying any breakdown in relations.
The statement says that Mr Sarkozy has had a telephone conversation with US President Barack Obama, in which they pledged to "unite their efforts to confront the urgent humanitarian situation, and, later, to respond to the vast task of reconstruction".
Underlying the episode is a tangible sense of hurt pride that France is being relegated to a secondary role in a country long regarded as part of its own sphere of influence. [...]
However most French people are far less hostile - recognising that Haiti is in America's backyard, and that America alone has the resources to react on the scale required." [BBC World Service]
Well, sorry 'bout that. :-)
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Watching the news tonight, there was a huge contrast between the people helping the Haitians and the terrorists' destruction.
The Americans and other countries' aid workers have been busy helping others, some spending hours just to rescue even one person from the rubble.
Then you see the footage of the Taliban harming/murdering people in an instant.
It really puts things in perspective and shows how much Americans and other countries value human life as compared to the Taliban and terrorists.
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And how easy it is to brainwash americans..A simple news edictor can do it...Show a clip of american's in haiti..then cut, next clip taliban...
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108. colonelartist
...Such hatred of all things not liberal....you sure that isn't you Comrade Chavez? are you going to tell me about the "evils" of the playstation and how only Uncle Chavez can save me from those evil capitalist pigs.
....you sound a like a 60's reject straight out of Austin Powers part 5...make love not war..man...peace and pass the weed..dude...
you sound like a cartoon...you must realize this...
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Better to be a cartoon than an american.People who see WMD in empty drums should be careful about telling others what others sound or look like..
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Mark, I've read this article and think the content is very good, however, as is typical of most commentary or editorial regarding black Americans, it is not representative of the conservative black voice. I did not and would not vote for Obama because he is a liberal in the worst sense. I'm a native Chicagoan that despises the democratic machine he represents, which serves not only to veil black voters from the truth of their circumstances, but will knowingly perpetuate the disparity of their condition. Black voters repeatedly vote in and keep in office politicians like Jesse Jackson Jr who do not and empirically have shown not to serve the best interest of the people he represents in his district. These black politicians are the enemy of black voters and until black Americans seek out what will truly benefit them, their "struggles" will continue until they are no longer a factor on many landscapes of our nations business. I applaud Isaac Hayes in his effort to bring a new light to IL-2 and to clean up the mess left behind by Gus Savage, Mel Reynolds and yet another corrupt incumbent, Senate Candidate 5, Jesse Jackson Jr. To clarify, I am very proud to a black Republican and an American.
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I still dont understand the logic of haitian airport being taken over by the american troops..Haiti maybe in america's backyard, but that backyard is an independent country. In pakistan it sends its drones every day and in haiti it violates the sovergeinty of a country by taking over in the name of aid..and at the same time, it wants the rest of the world to install pornographic booths to save its sovergeinty..Something is extremely wrong with america, even obama's change looks like same ol', same ol'.
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109. wolfvorkian:
"SaintDominick - what I do is glance through some of the links in the DrudgeReport. The talking points for the right are outlined there. "
*************
Yours could also be a talking point it's repeated so often, about the right's getting it's talking points from [fill in name of rightwinger].
You seem to have fallen into the same partisan trap of parroting points.
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195. At 4:54pm on 19 Jan 2010, general penitentiary wrote:
why so much escapism in the land of the free? that does confuse me, unless they are just not free enough.
Perhaps, the image they present though is of a people proud to be free yet seemingly paranoid that at any moment this freedom could be snatched away, it must make relaxation tricky.
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colonel artist, the President of Haiti asked us to be there. He also thanked the USA and other countries for our/their help. Haiti's govt. is down and out, several thousand criminals escaped the jail there and the UN has asked the USA to help with security. The UN has stated that the USA and other countries are working together to help Haiti.
The USA is not taking over Haiti and we have no desire to. We are just trying to help. There is nothing wrong with helping another country in their time of need. Even the people in the USA who don't have much still are donating what little they have because we feel for them. The USA has a lot of heart.
I am thankful to the other countries that have also aided Haiti, as this is a such a huge disaster that the USA cannot go it alone. The only way to truly help Haiti is with other countries' aid and help.
As for the drones, they are only going after the terrorists in those countries, whose leaders are obviously aware of what is happening. These countries' leaders have also issued statements against terrorism and how they are working with the USA.
I have a relative who was a mid-wife for several months in Afghanistan. She told us that the Afghan women she met and worked with are friendly and intelligent. She also told us that these women do not want the USA to leave Afghanistan, because they fear the terrorists will take over after we leave. These women in Afghanistan feel safer with the USA and they want their children to be able to attend school and get an education without the terrorists attacking them.
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If tomorrow your leaders decide to sell your ports to UAE, you will just let them? the countries are not made up of leaders, especially not the leaders who are your puppets, you say we are coming to give you aid and taking over the country, they say, please do, same with the drones..the reality is, that america is violating sovergeinty of other countries..And thats unacceptable..I dont know what neighbours do to each other houses if they help each other, but in the rest of the world, the helper doesnt take charge of the whole household..usa will be remembered by its war for peace, and occupation in the name of aid..
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170. At 10:13am on 19 Jan 2010, David Murrell wrote:
“I am not saying that this is Hollywood’s fault as I think it is just a continuation of an existing theme. Outside of the US Hollywood films are pretty much seen as bunk, good entertainment to switch your brain off for a few hours.”
Good point, but Hollywood didn’t start it. First there were the “Wild West Shows” [which even toured Europe successfully] then the “Penny Dreadfulls” which presented a very inaccurate picture of the American past [and present]. Very often a collective [NOT collectivist] approach or posse [vigilantes] was in play. Settlers helped each other and often resolved matters by group action.
The propaganda has changed the perception and even the social constraints. But don’t forget, though some might like to, the “Community Organizer in Chief” is a return to our original cultural preference.
“Obviously not every American thinks the same, but the US is a nation that promotes conformity, the whole pledge of allegiance thing, which leaves me both cold and a little unsettled. Blind faith, including fervent patriotism, is something I automatically distrust and large chunks of America seem to accept blind faith of all kinds without question.”
That’s not what I was taught in school, here in Massachusetts. You might not believe it but we even read a little Marx, “Workers of the world unite, you have only your chains to lose.” Though that was the ‘60’s and they pointed out that the USSR wasn’t what the proletariat expected to be offered, and not what the workers of America were getting.
We were told to ask questions, we were told what the Revolution, the Constitution, good citizenship and the Bill of Rights meant. They took the reading of the KJV Bible and the Lords Prayer out of public schools [no harm, but shouldn’t have been there], later they took out the pledge and even the US flag.
We do not have any unifying factor [race, language, religion, cheese, etc.] other than those which you deride. We are already falling apart into Blue and Red states. Do you really think the world would be a better place if the US became the Balkans of the 21st Century?
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Yours could also be a talking point it's repeated so often, about the right's getting it's talking points from [fill in name of rightwinger].
You seem to have fallen into the same partisan trap of parroting points.
Did I hit a little too close to home,Andrea? And maybe you can help me..where do I find that letter-to-the-editor template all these dolts here in Alaska are using for their LTTE? Now I know the left has them too but the one I'm referring to is really overkill. Absolute illiterates send compositions that rival what an editor for a major newspaper might create.
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re: 136 KSCurmudgeon "Everywhere I turn, at work, in the market, in my neighborhood, in discussions, I search for the person who will take ownership of what is needed at the moment. Machines and programs can only follow the program. Too many of us are unwittingly following the program, and not taking responsibility for what we have the power to speak to."
I agree in substance, quite completely. But even on a personal level, we do not spontaneously create our words and deeds. There are deep structures we must draw on -- values, attitudes, and beliefs -- things that constitute the vocabulary and syntax, as it were, of our individual utterances and actions.
As far as political life per se, it is ideology, whether we acknowledge it or not, that forms this deep structure. There is no shame in being committed to an ideology, be it socialist, liberal, or conservative. And I would argue, in fact, that the more self-conscious you are about it (and hence the more knowledgeable you are about the ideology), the more likely you are to be a responsible and active citizen in a representative democracy (bomb throwing radicals whose ideologies despise representative democracy have, obviously, a whole different thing going on).
Political parties, particularly in the United States, I would say, tend to obscure their ideological roots by invoking some fuzzy notion of pragmatism. The other guy is always 'ideological,' while you are 'practical.' Ideology becomes a dirty word -- and in becoming a dirty word much of the substance of political debate is foreclosed upon. So we get gotcha politics and sound bites instead, and people become disillusioned and disenfranchised, and the political rhetoric becomes ever more heated and vacuous in an attempt to catch the attention of a disinterested electorate.
So take ownership of the moment and act responsibly by all means, but acknowledge that to do so you need to be sure of your footing. And in politics, that means ideology.
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206. At 10:48pm on 19 Jan 2010, colonelartist wrote:
the reality is, that america is violating sovergeinty of other countries..And thats unacceptable..I dont know what neighbours do to each other houses if they help each other, but in the rest of the world, the helper doesnt take charge of the whole household..usa will be remembered by its war for peace, and occupation in the name of aid..
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And Islam in the 21at century will be remembered, rightly or wrongly, for its coordinated violation of the sovereignties of Britain, Germany, Spain, Malaysia, USA, how many other nations?
KScurmudgeon
all nations are many-faceted, no?
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202. At 7:07pm on 19 Jan 2010, colonelartist wrote:
I still dont understand the logic of haitian airport being taken over by the american troops..
Sir, don't you get it, or are you just beating your drum in spite of the obious? The US has not taken possession of the Haitian airport - far from it. They are operating it so it can be useful during this emergency. There is no control tower, there is no existing electricity or radios - all this must come from the outside for now - and the expertise to operate it 24/7 in the absence of the Haitian operators and any effective Haitian authority.
KScurmudgeon,
You might be an American (Republican) political hack, to produce such blather.
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Is there a nicer way to call the many previous administrations--which one/s I really don't know-- maybe all of them since a long time now, Thief's and liars than to say "We need to save America for the future generations?" Who are we saving it from. With a straight face and looking very concerned for our children's future, but neglecting that without our immediate welfare(noun) in mind, our future and theirs, really is in the wrong hands. If there are crooks and dishonest people robbing the countries, why aren't they in jails. Looks to me like white collar crime has become a rainbow and it makes sense because our illumination is brighter with each shinning ray, which is filtered by the perspective and illusion of hope, and hope by itself does not hungry people.
I know we criticize every other country that does wrong(all kinds) and we are so rich that we can't notice we have been fleeced at lest half the time. Corrupt countries all of them, elsewhere? Everyone defends themselves from attacks, all are justified to defend themselves, then why the focus on others-- to deter the vision from ourselves--when we need just as much attention. Whatever made this country think HOPE would come from anywhere. If we are not more divided now than we have ever been, I don't believe the future will intercede.
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KScurmudgeon #211:
You made an exellent observation.
However, colonelartist is no Republican or Democrat.
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207. At 11:44pm on 19 Jan 2010, JMM wrote:
"here in Massachusetts. You might not believe it but we even read a little Marx'.
Not enough, obviously.
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210. At 03:43am on 20 Jan 2010, KScurmudgeon wrote:
"And Islam in the 21at century will be remembered, rightly or wrongly, for its coordinated violation of the sovereignties of Britain, Germany, Spain, Malaysia, USA, how many other nations?"
No, it won't.
Despite our 'colonel' doing his/her damnedest to push people into thinking that way. (And, frankly, far too many people in the USA don't need much pushing, dammit.) 'Islam' is also 'multi-faceted, no'?
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Sir, don't you get it, or are you just beating your drum in spite of the obious? The US has not taken possession of the Haitian airport - far from it. They are operating it so it can be useful during this emergency. There is no control tower, there is no existing electricity or radios - all this must come from the outside for now - and the expertise to operate it 24/7 in the absence of the Haitian operators and any effective Haitian authority.
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I am against this post 9/11 trend of violating the soverginty of the countries,whether it be for war or aid or american safety..Actually I am against the western world's acceptance to this trend...When we had soviet union such things were seen as they should have been seen, violation of country..violation of the people's will and also, I am against this, because of the attitude behind these kinds of violation..that, "we are better than you and we know whats good for you"..I dont believe that blacks in usa or red indians were ever freed completely, physically yes, but psychologically not, as when you talk to settlers they always somehow manage to express their "we know more than you".But I will allow myself to be as simple as the rest of americans, and pretend that blacks were freed two centuries ago, and than somewhere in late 1960s, they were allowed to be equal..but the first thing happened two centuries ago and second one 70 yrs ago, people have forgotten, and are now doing the same thing...its called recycling of the attitudes..The context has changed, and america violates other countries the way it violat(ed) the blacks and the red indians population with their "better than thou" attitude.
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Sir, don't you get it, or are you just beating your drum in spite of the obious? The US has not taken possession of the Haitian airport - far from it. They are operating it so it can be useful during this emergency. There is no control tower, there is no existing electricity or radios - all this must come from the outside for now - and the expertise to operate it 24/7 in the absence of the Haitian operators and any effective Haitian authority.
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Thats what american government said when it sent its subsidized ric to haiti, that was the end of haitians self sufficiancy in rice..And now, they come to help them taking over their airport and declaring themselves the savoiurs..If americans have this pathalogical need to be seen as the saviours and heros, then they should do it inside their own country, starting from the homeless..those who cannot afford the health insurance..that would end this pathetic useless debate as well.
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colonel artist, I can tell you don't want to admit that the USA is doing a good deed by helping Haiti.
There is nothing in Haiti that the USA wants. Some may even call it a burden, as helping them will cost us millions of dollars, our troops' services and our resources.
The only reason we and the other countries are there is to help the people affected by the earthquake. If you cannot admit that, then you are in total denial of the truth which is that the USA is a good country who likes to help people when they can. Otherwise we would not be there.
I have to admit that I am glad that the Haitians are not psychotics who think they have the right to hurt other people for their religion.
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There is nothing in Haiti that the USA wants. Some may even call it a burden, as helping them will cost us millions of dollars, our troops' services and our resources.
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Well, if usa hadnt been dumping its subsidized rice on haitians, atleast people had their own food, somewhat less of a burden...first you take the livlighood and their own food, from them and then give them aid and expect them and the world to be grateful to you.Nope, usa is not doing a good deed..its just trying to project its own image..
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I don't expect them or the world to be "grateful." In fact, if you read my posting above, I stated that I am grateful that other countries are helping out the Haitians, too, because everyone who is helping makes a difference. The USA and these countries are not doing it for public image, though. We are doing it to help them.
You seem to think that Americans believe other countries are meant to serve them. Well, I'll tell you right now, that is not true at all. In fact, I wish that we would start making more of our own products, as we are quality people.
I don't know what you are talking about with the rice and all that, which sounds strange. The USA may have occupied Haiti in the past, but so did France, which is why many Haitians speak French rather than English.
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I don't know what you are talking about with the rice and all that, which sounds strange.
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its strange that being neighbour of haiti you dont know about haiti's rice history...when your country exploits,it does it queitly like theives and robbers, but when it gives aid, it shouts at the top of its voice, and the frequency of noise is higher than the aid's frequency..
http://www.heritagekonpa.com/archives/Haiti;s%20rice%20farmers%20suffered%20since%20trade%20barrier%20in%201994.htm
here read this.
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Yeah, the same thing happened to us with China. They have overwhelmed us with their inexpensive products, so that now American companies are suffering the same exhaustion.
In the USA, we never had problems until we learned that some of the products sold to us contained harmful products. At least in Haiti, the chicken and rice does not contain lead or toxins.
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161. David Murrell wrote:
"Quick question I thought sexist comments were not allowed, surely (crying) ‘that’s what women do’ is sexist?"
Well, based on the men and women I know it is true that women cry much more often than men. Partly it's hormones. At a certain time of month...
Squirrelist, it is alright for you to refer to colonelartist as "he". His obsession with "pornographic booths" makes me 99% certain that he has an XY set of chromosomes. And thanks for the Essex jokes.
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At least in Haiti, the chicken and rice does not contain lead or toxins.
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No, it just ruined the hatians agriculture and poultry and made those out of job people to flock to the capitol, and lived in building structures which actually would have falled with the slight wind, let alone an earthquake..How many americans died because of toxins from chinese imports in usa? usa systematicly ruined haiti in all secrecy and now it shouts at the top of its voice about some aid..Like a murderer who first kills and then arranges an impressive funeral for the dead and gets all the credit for the funeral.
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222 I am off to take the American made mop back to the store AGAIN. it fell apart after 10 minutes use.
Americans make crap as well. sorry.
"In the USA, we never had problems until we learned that some of the products sold to us contained harmful products"
wow so the tabaco companies, no forgett hem. the companies of the USA are there for your health. at the same time Europe banned certain chemicals in plastics the chinese tried to(they are a big country but peopele in the US expect them to be regulated better than america with years to get ready)and the americans said
"what we will be un-competitive
we don't want no regulation.
We don't want no thought control
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We will just have to agree to disagree.
You think the USA is the worst country in the world.
I think the USA is the best country in the world.
We have our issues, just like everyone else. No country is perfect. I am hurting today. So deeply disappointed by the Supreme Court decision.
A corporation is NOT a person!
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214. At 06:36am on 20 Jan 2010, squirrelist wrote:
207. At 11:44pm on 19 Jan 2010, JMM wrote:
"'here in Massachusetts. You might not believe it but we even read a little Marx'.
Not enough, obviously."
Well some of what he said was on the mark [no pun, no reference to our host], a lot is passe and some remains true. But Mark wasn't a Marxist, and ideologs who swallow any old party line uncritically and stick to it come what may [whatever place on the political spectrum they inhabit] intellectually and morally challenged.
Lenin also got at least one thing right [when taking time off from plotting the liquidation of the Menchiviki, Kulaks snd the imperial family], "The capitalists will sell us the rope with which to hang them."
What a lovely, pacific and peace-loving chap. I really can't understand why he never won a Nobel Prize.
I just wish the international [especially American] businessmen who keep rushing to support the PRC had a clue about what is intended for them in the future. I think they will deserve more than a bullet in the head [to be paid for by their families]. Lovely chaps the CCP, even their pet squirrels have fangs and drink blood [preferably of capitalists, but non Han minorities and oponents of dictatorship of the proletariat when available].
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We must pick positive positions that are easy to defend. We can not stop earmarks by railing against them. We might be able to stop them (or at least reduce them by making them fair. A FAIR EARMARK BILL could state that all states get a equal per capitia (of citizens) share. When any state has less then their fair share of earmarks, they will receive the difference in a cash grant. It could be the form of an unrestricted grant to the various state treasurers payable within 30 days of passage or it could be restricted to Community Colleges, for example. If all states are treated fairly, then the permanent pols have no reason to trade votes. We can support other bills that will reduce the corruption in congress.
The socialists (big government boys) have been winning the war of public relations because they have defined the terms we all use. They say health care reform when the issue is health care CONTROL. they don’t want change, they want control. Steny Hoyer has been in congress for 28 years and he is with the CHANGERS. We need to change him. He has represented his district almost as long as half of them have been alive. It must be pointed out that the Maryland's 5th district has to have a change of bosses. We should pick out every possible misuse of power and use of government control.
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The Tea Party can not win the hearts and souls of America if they become part of the PARTY OF NO. We need programs that are limited in scope and duration. One example would tackle the problem of high unemployment in youth and particular teenage miniorities. The government could subsidise the salary of persons who have no work experience by giving their employers a tax reduction of for example $2.00/ hour. The employees would of course be citizens or English Speaking legal residents. With 2 years of work experience, almost everone can compete in the work force.
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You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. This applies to the "Tea Party," Fox "news," the GOP, the Democrats, Corporate ["Special"] Interests, etc., etc.
By stirring up the popular passions in order to prevent genuine reform, I believe [and hope] they are setting the stage for their own comeuppance. Look up "Muckraking." When the American public sees that they have been played for fools, they won't blame themselves for being foolish, they will turn on those who fooled them. It will not be pretty, but it will probably not be as extreme nor as bloody as the French or Russian revolts.
Given the rising public distemper, I would advise the corporatists [and their favorite puppets the GOP, FOX and the Blue Dogs] to accept some meaningful reform at small expense, rather than risk everything on continued obstruction of any reform at all.
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