Selling Obama's Afghan strategy on Capitol Hill
The hard sell is under way. President Obama's speech was mainly aimed at convincing the American people that his strategy - hit hard and fast, and then plan to get out of Afghanistan - was the right one.
Now his top team have been on Capitol Hill trying to convince the serious and senior elected politicians that this is the right strategy. There was a fair bit of flesh on the bare bones of the president's speech but the trio also hit hard one very basic message.
Speaking to the Senate's Armed Services Committee, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton struck an emotional note.
"In the aftermath of 11 September, I grieved with sons, daughters, husbands, and wives, whose loved ones were murdered. It was an attack on our country, but it was also an attack on my constituents. I witnessed the tragic consequences in the lives of thousands of innocent families, and the damage done to our economy and our sense of security. So I feel a personal responsibility to help protect our nation from such violence," Mrs Clinton said.
Defence Secretary Robert Gates set out why this responsibility implied dealing with the Taliban: "The lesson of the Taliban's revival for al-Qaeda is that time and will are on their side. That, with a Western defeat, they could regain their strength and achieve a major strategic victory - as long as their senior leadership lives and can continue to inspire and attract followers and funding. Rolling back the Taliban is now necessary, even if not sufficient, to the ultimate defeat of al-Qaeda."
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm Michael Mullen, argued that "if the United States should be hit again, I remain convinced that the planning, training and funding for such an attack will emanate there".
"It is a region where a nuclear weapons state, Pakistan, is under direct threat from
al-Qaeda and affiliated Pakistani Taliban groups that aspire to acquire and use
nuclear weapons against the United States and our allies. Thus, it is a region
with a unique - and deadly - combination of the most dangerous terrorists and
the most dangerous technology in the world. Our actions in Pakistan and
Afghanistan seek to prevent catastrophic outcomes from these toxic forces."
But senators were concerned that announcing that the US would start getting out in a year-and-a-half's time gave the wrong signal to the enemy.
Former Republican Presidential candidate John McCain repeatedly pressed Mr Gates on what would happen if there was no victory by then, if conditions on the ground weren't right, but he didn't get much of an answer, beyond the promise of a review of the situation.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~59~RS~)
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It doesn't matter GOP will use the war surge for all kinds of excuses,timetables, to stopping a war tax, and ending health care debate,they have lost their reign in the US and are just bitter and trying to stop any type of accomplishments they were incapable of doing because of their ties to business.They don't want a war tax because their rich friends might have to pony up some money.They don't want a timetable so their friends with war contracts can collect from war,and they want to stop health care debate for their obvious friends who again make money from others health problems.
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McCain will always be second-guessing Obama's policies; that's fair and his duty as a Senator. President Bush's policy was always to resist timetables, but he allowed the situation in Afghanistan to deteriorate after initial success there, and offered no coherent plan for fixing it. Obama deserves a chance to do it his way.
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President Obama's speech was mainly aimed on convincing the American people that his strategy - hit hard and fast, and then plan to get out of Afghanistan - was the right one.
I wonder just how many of the American people actually watched the President speak? Without having seen the ratings (too early) my guess is only a small fraction of the population. I'd go so far as to wager more people watched American Idol than the Democratic idol.
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Selling congress on a war has never been too difficult.
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Congress is a cesspool of self interest and has no concern for the well being of the country. Those with districts with military contracts will support this and those without will not...it is the American way. Any money saved by getting out will be given to the banks so I would think it is better spent fighting terrorist, not that bankers aren't terrorist but they blow accounts up with computers and fraud. The issue of terroism needs to be addressed this cannot go on as a slow bleed. It would be better is other countries participated in a strong joint effort to address the Taliban and Al-quadea in one strong effort. Most politicians are cowards, it is what distinguishes them from everyone else.
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2 well said gary.
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"The hard sell is under way. President Obama's speech was mainly aimed on convincing the American people that his strategy - hit hard and fast, and then plan to get out of Afghanistan - was the right one." Yeah, right. As usual, he (they) skipped blithely over the most important part. What are we doing there in the first place? No "hard sell" necessary there; it's all just a question of "strategy". How do we bludgeon them into submission most effectively? There's always bipartisan agreement in Amerika's one-party/two-faces state that we can invade anybody we want for whatever lie we can concoct. That's why oily Obama was installed in the Oval Office by the powers that be - because he's perceived to be a more effective orator, i.e. public liar than other candidates. So off to Afghanistan with our new multi-cultural "dream team" to slaughter the natives!
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So much for Obama the peacemaker. Sending more troops abroad on a fruitless war adventure and refusing to ban land-mines does not exactly qualify someone for the Nobel Peace Prize
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SELLING THE [AF-PAK] WAR!!
[Two Field Armies]
The American-Israeli Empire Troop levels are now as of yesterday, set at [100K],One-Hundred-Thousand making up [2] Two Field Armies. The Empire counts it (KIA) in Tens of Thousands and doesn’t blink an eye, and will commit whatever amount of troops for as long as it desires. The Empire will move a combat force of about (45k) Forty-Five-Thousand men from Iraq to Afghanistan -- in part as replacements for troops rotated out and in part as reinforcements.
[The Aramco Central Asian Pipeline]
As of Now, American commanders have far exceeded the number that the Soviets had there in (1987). And by (1988), the Soviets finally woke up, cut their losses and quickly [retreated] leaving billions worth of armaments to rust along with, (14K) Fourteen-Thousand, Russian graves.
The [Af-Pak] War of Economic Stimulus, Blood for Oil, Markets and Resources, is turning into an open-ended forever commitment of nation-building, in Afghanistan a government built upon corruption and inefficiency much like the Empire, to support the Aramco Central Asian Pipeline. With the Empire planning to create an Afghanistan National Corp Level size army of [240K] Two-Hundred-Forty Thousand, and Police force of [160K] to protect the [$2B/€1.3B] Two-Billion-Dollars/One-Point-Three Billion-Euros, pipeline that the Americans wanted to build from Soviet central Asia, Turkmenistan through Afghanistan, to Pakistan and India, the Central Asian Aramco pipeline, a consortium of oil companies, the same that control Saudi Oil, with an emir to be put in place with lots of Sharia law, which the Oil companies are more than willing to live with. The cost of maintaining the [400K] Four-Hundred Thousand combined force will be borne by both Empire and [EU] European Citizens to ensure the protection of the Central Asian Aramco pipeline.
[WAR NOT WORTH FIGHTING}
The support for the (Af-Pak) war from the Main Street American population is below (50%) Fifty-Percent, with support decreasing monthly, The American public, which had broadly supported Media Messiah Imperial Presidents determination to focus on Afghanistan instead of Iraq, has begun to question the wisdom of the continued American-Israeli Empire commitment, the Afghan war was deemed [not worth fighting] by (51%), Fifty-One percent of respondents in a Washington Post-ABC News poll, taken months ago.
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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Mark wrote:
"But senators were concerned that announcing that the US would start getting out in a year-and-a-half's time gave the wrong signal to the enemy."
"Former Republican Presidential candidate John McCain repeatedly pressed Mr Gates on what would happen if there was no victory by then, if conditions on the ground weren't right, but he didn't get much of an answer, beyond the promise of a review of the situation."
__________
The key thing about the 18 month date is not the signal it sends to the enemy, but rather the signal it sends to the governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
18 month may sound like a long time, but in terms of the logistics involved it is really a very short time. Basically it is saying to those governments: "You have six months to show us you're serious, or we're packing it in."
And if things improve, decisions can be changed accordingly.
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PARRISIA_GREECE SAYS: So much for Obama the peacemaker. Sending more troops abroad on a fruitless war adventure and refusing to ban land-mines does not exactly qualify someone for the Nobel Peace Prize
*******************************************************************
TRIATHLON: The Empire Media Messiah Imperical President is the Commander and Chief of the [MIC} Military Industrial Complex, the term peacemaker only applies if you mean the Six-Shooter used in gun-fights in the Western Empire.
Sending more troops just provides a target rich enviornment for the [IFF} Islamic Freedom Fighter, they can almost shoot in any direction to kill Empire Troops.
And that not signing the ban on land mines is going to bite the {MIC} Commander-In-Chief in the backside, now all the {IFF} has to do is purchase [PLASTIC] mines, they have something better than cash, crops of narcotics, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba and East European countries strapped for cash, have [Plastic] undetectable anti-personel mines will sell. With the spy system which the people of Afghanistan are all supporting, the [IFF] should be digging and planting mines right along with corps to pay for the mines.
The Peace Prize seems fitting Nobel created explosive which he sold the the British, which killed millions upon million of people, and his award is going to another who is killing millions.
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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I think that President Obama is on the right track with his speech. I agreed with just about everything he said, except the part about the USA and the Muslim world having more of a connection, which I disagree with. Since 9/11, there is much suspicion and distrust. I wish things weren't that way, but they are. Those types of feelings don't leave overnight.
As for President Obama's surge strategy, I support him 100 %. As much as we are ready for our troops to go home, I think that we should give our best shot at ending war the responsible way and not the easy way. It is important for President Obama to give these speeches and acknowledge the military, so I was pleased that he gave them appreciation and told them they were fighting a just cause. President Obama and the American people want this war over. We just want to do it the right way. I don't see how anyone can fault President Obama for wanting to finish this responsibly. It's the only way to do it. America and our allies must stand together strong and united against the Islamic terrorists. We can defeat them, with strength in numbers and with God on our side.
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How sad that once again violence is the path chosen by the United States. The reality is, it doesn't work. Killing people just makes other people angry. We should try working together to achieve security, if we all had economic justice, there wouldn't be any conflict.
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"Killing people just makes other people angry." (from post #13)
Killing nearly 3000 innocent people on 11 September 2001 sure made a lot of Americans angry.
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"But senators were concerned that announcing that the US would start getting out in a year-and-a-half's time gave the wrong signal to the enemy."
Not to quibble, but this overlooks the significant questioning from Democratic lawmakers regarding the wisdom of sending any troops. Sen. Specter is against any increase in troop strength, while Carl Levin- generally one of the president's strongest allies- questioned whether sending additional troops will only foster the Afghan government's dependence on foreign troops.
And, although some objections were raised to the announced policy, the real story might be how muted the Republican leadership have been. Their normal loud attacks on everything Obama have been reduced to a few reasonable discussions over actual policy points, not rhetorical shouting points repeated ad nauseum.
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#14. GH1618: "Killing nearly 3000 innocent people on 11 September 2001 sure made a lot of Americans angry."
And I feel sure the deaths of some 50,000 or 650,000 (depending on the source) Iraqi civilians made the rest of that nation angry, especially when its leader had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Similarly, the deaths of 40,000 Londoners in the Blitz made Britons angry, but at least they were fighting a known enemy, not one that was presumed.
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#12 ILLINOISAN: Is [100%] One-Hunder Percent behind the American-Israel Empire and its Media Messiah Imperial President and we are in total and complete [100%] One-Hundred Percent dis-agreement. You don't spent
The American-Israeli Empire Troop levels in Afghanistan will be [100K], a force of [2] Two Field Armies, with a price tag of [$30B/€20B] Thirty-Billion Dollars/ Twenty-Billion Euros, for the Empire Surge minimum.
Now, in any budget, sending Marines just before Christmas who may be sent back in a bag just after Christmas, to a place that OH! were leaving in [18] eighteen months anyway now. NOT!!
We just got thru building a huge new Prison, and were starting building another massive embassy, and don't forget the [$2B/€1.3B] Two-Billion-Dollars/One-Point-Three Billion-Euros, pipeline that the Americans wanted to build from Soviet central Asia, Turkmenistan through Afghanistan, to Pakistan and India, the Central Asian Aramco pipeline, a consortium of oil companies.
#16 David_Cunard got it right
It is my belief that whereas the [twentieth century] has been a century of war and untold suffering, the [twenty-first century] should be one of peace and dialogue. As the continued advances in information technology make our world a truly global village, I believe there will come a time when war and armed conflict will be considered an outdated and obsolete method of settling differences among nations and communities.
- His Holiness the Dalai Lama [NOT IF THE EMPIRE HAS ITS WAY]
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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It is a region where a nuclear weapons state, Pakistan, is under direct threat from
al-Qaeda and affiliated Pakistani Taliban groups that aspire to acquire and use
nuclear weapons against the United States and our allies. Thus, it is a region
with a unique - and deadly - combination of the most dangerous terrorists and
the most dangerous technology in the world. Our actions in Pakistan and
Afghanistan seek to prevent catastrophic outcomes from these toxic forces."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Both Muller and his commander in chief should know one thing, that Pakistani'enemies are those who are killing pakistani people, and american's enemies are those who are killing americans...No need for the americans to force its enemies on pakistan.. 9 yrs and twice the americans have diffused the things to create mess in afghanistan and iraq, this diffusing of extremists is the third time americans are using the same startegies to create havoc in a third country..
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Maybe the American government and the Islamists should all read Dale Carnegie's book, "How to Make Friends and Influence People." Problem solved.
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18 Maybe the havoc was already their in those countries and they are creating havoc for many inside and outside of those nations.
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18 Maybe the havoc was already their in those countries and they are creating havoc for many inside and outside of those nations.
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The pakistanis dont even want to call their enemies as taliban anymore to emphasize that their enemies are not the same who are americans enemies...america used this trick of attaching alqaida with taliban, alqaida with saddam, and now taliban with pakistan...There is a difference between kandahari taliban fight american soldiers and those who are fighting the pakistanis..The catchy,. cool term AfPak, shas evil intentions written all over it.
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Alot of the complaints being made now about sending more troops and announcing a deadline were the same exact arguments made when Bush announced the Iraq surge. Two years later I think almost everyone today would tell you that the Iraq surge and the change in ground policies that accompanied it were very successful. Despite this the same people are coming out of the woodwork with the same complaints.
I guess it comes down to the fact that Americans have gotten a little skittish since the fiasco in Vietnam (and elsewhere like Somalia). They're perfectly ready to go into a battle but as soon as the momentum starts slowing down, they start getting bad flashbacks and try to get out. Even in the first gulf war, Americans were so ready to get out as fast as possible that they left Saddam completely unchastised and his power practically undiminished. Aside from liberating Kuwait and restoring the status quo, nothing was accomplished.
Shouting "Vietnam" is as mindless and unbased in reality as believing Afghanistan can be turned into a beacon of democracy. Let's get out as soon as we can but there's absolutely no sense in leaving the job half done and leaving the situation worse off than it was before.
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[10K] THEN [7K] THEN [5K]
[10K/7K/5K/0K]
In less than [48hr.] forty-eight hours, the numbers are either dropping in one direction or up in others. [NATO] North Atlantic Treaty Organization, will first provide an additional [10K] Ten-Thousand Troops, well not that many, maybe [7K]Seven-Thousand, but not until the [NATO]meeting at the end of Janurary, we saw the last [NATO] meeting it will almost warfare in the streets, then it's well maybe [5K] Five-thousand but not until after the [NATO] meeting, maybe a few more, maybe.
[18 is 14]
Now, if the withdrawal is scheduled for [18] Eighteen-months that means that [NATO] won't even dicuss additional troops until [16] Sixteen-months are left, a months or so to them there [15] months, and another month or so to get them back home [14] months.
[EURO'S TO BURN]
Then there is the cost of this adventure upon the [EU] European Union, but the Economic Downturn is over and they have Euros to burn. And they will need them paying the cost to support the [400K] Four-Hundred Thousand Afghanistan Military and Police Force they are going to have trained and left there in just [14]months.
The [EU/NATO] response to the Media Messiah Imperial Messiah seems to have been, well we will think about it, dicuss it at the [NATO] conference, we will get back to you after our taughtfull deliberations.
[Super-duper NO!]
Then the response of the Citizens of the Empire [70%] Seventy-percent say no way, no surge, no day, no way, that is a Super-duper majority against it.
But, we will be out in [18] eighteen months, no we will not be out in [18] eighteen months because we aren't going in, were getting out, is the publics response.
Selling congress on a war has never been too difficult, except when the election will be less than [10] ten months after [NATO] make's a very hard decision of thanks but no thanks.
[Democratic Political Cost]
And the remained muted the why do the normal loud attacks on everything the Media Messiah Imperial President has done, just take the high road with a few reasonable discussions over actual policy points, not rhetorical shouting points repeated ad nauseum, vote with the Democratic, who vote for the Surge, hand the War of Economic Stimulus, Blood for Money, Markets and Resources over to the Democratic and when it goes sour, its their war. And, the Elections only [10] ten months after [NATO] says it doesn't have men or additional treasure to throw away. How many new members in Congress has this speach cost, Democratic eat their own.
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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Most of us in the U.S. reacted the same way, i.e. with a specific exit date for the U.S. to leave their country, win or lose, the terrorists can just relax and wait for them to leave. This departure plan for the U.S. was stupid.
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Colonel, you are very intelligent--it is obvious.
BUT (you knew this was comin')
Do you really care about these people with your emotions?...because you seem to react only with your intellect--Not judging you--you are Very fun to read---
my therapist ..years (and years and years) ago...told me I, myself, had a tendency to intellectualize (being neutral emotionally and not really reacting--and not use my feelings.
(it was part of responding to anxiety or stress related occurances--no offense)
Its OK to feel emotions. And its healthy for you to express them. :)
But, keep up your great writing.:)
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IF,
Precisely.
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Colonel,
Spot on! "The Taliban" are NOT a homogenous monolith, but the more we try and treat them as such and beat them (and nearby innocent collaterals) with blunt sticks, the more unified against us they become.
Is that surprising? Only to fools.
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Lord Nathan,
Look whom you are referring to .......Fools?
A Republican might then say, like Archie Bunker,
"I resemble that remark."
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"I wonder just how many of the American people actually watched the President speak?" (from David_Cunard at #3)
According to Nielsen, more than 40 million. This is more than American Idol's normal viewership.
http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/12/obama-afghanistan-speech-ratings.html
This is only for television. No doubt many more listened on the radio, as I did.
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#25. stellarBeloved: "Colonel, you are very intelligent--it is obvious."
An overstatement if ever there was one!
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#24. Rudloph: "Most of us in the U.S. reacted the same way"
Sure we did . . how many people did you ask out of the 360 million? Your mom and dad?
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David_Cunard,
"Sure we did . . how many people did you ask out of the 360 million? Your mom and dad?"
That is kind of what I was thinking when I read Rudloph's post. I know I was not asked by him nor anyone I might know (maybe he took a scientific survey :):)
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Will this increase bring stability to Afghanistan? NO, because this is a POLITICAL MOVE.
The problem with Obama is that he is trying to please everybody, the Right and Left at the same time, while keeping an eye on the voters’ reaction. Afghanistan is NOT Iraq, and trying to copy what happened in Iraq shows a complete ignorance on the part of the American government of the Afghani culture.
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More lies and deceit from Obama and a parade of his propaganda dogs.
Hillary Clinton says that THE CIVILIAN PRESENCE will long outlast the military presence in Afghanistan...that could mean the Agriculture Experts who have been "embeded" with the Army (unreported for months) OR the 104,100 DOD "contractors" in Afghanistan..an ARMY of civilians that outnumbers the US troops presently in Afghanistan and will continue to outnumber them even after the surge.
Henry Kissinger chimed in that INDIA has got a large but "non-military" role to play in Afghanistan...so what does THAT mean? That India will be distributing US Aid in this new system that by passes Karzai and his crooks?
And what about he anti-war Dems? They just rolled over on this one, just going to fund and fund and fund the slaughter!
The White House rolled out Susan Rice who was supposedly the architect of the ORIGINAL Obama Afghanplan...SHE says Plan B embraces the audacity of hope and is a change we can live with...so what does THAT mean? Why did Obama spend 3 months stroking his chin if this is the same plan he went in with? Its because it's NOT! This is a devil's bargain and the whole propaganda machine is pushing it..which means it is NOT good for America!
At best, it looks as though Obama is going to create Tajik strongholds in urban areas and feed the aid in to those selected Ft. Apaches. CNN fed Kissinger a loaded question, "Why did the Russians lose in Afghanistan?" And Kissinger intoned that it was because they tried to control Afghanistan from a central location. So, Plan B is to step around the cesspit that is AFghanistan's central government...great, but these are the actions of an OCCUPYING ARMY and so forget about any pretense of being invited to the party to help "police" a few of these "man-made disaster" zealots!
So of course, Karzai is happy, he got a get out of jail free card and he doesn't have to worry about the corrupt unruly warlords, the druglords, or his criminal brother! He can sit there and play with his millions of stolen aid money.
Obama is still putting on his magic act..nuthin' up my sleeve folks...yeah, right!
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ref #15
Not to quibble, but this overlooks the significant questioning from Democratic lawmakers regarding the wisdom of sending any troops. Sen. Specter is against any increase in troop strength, while Carl Levin- generally one of the president's strongest allies- questioned whether sending additional troops will only foster the Afghan government's dependence on foreign troops.
________________
Levin is a fanatical dove in the pocket of the left. do't forget Fiengold who want to block fundng for the troopps, that is treason.
The timetable sends the wrong message but Obama has to keep the moonbats from revolting.
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I suppose this just goes to show you cannot please all the people all of the time. I am a bit surprised about the amount of apparent surprise and annoyance shown on this board, surely Obama did exactly what everyone expected him to do? He was always going to send more troops and most of the estimates I saw said between 30,000 and 35,000, so that figure was not a shocker. As for a timetable for withdrawal, again I would have thought that this kind of announcement was to be expected. Opinion polls seem to show that the American population does not want their boys to be stuck in Afghanistan indefinitely, same goes for this side of the pond. 18 months, as some have pointed out is not really that long, it gives the surge long enough to have an effect and the Afghan government long enough to get out of its cesspit long enough to actually do something constructive, but only if they start doing things now.
To be honest, while I understand the importance of the subject matter, I am getting a little bored with how many soldiers are going to be sent over and whether Obama has betrayed the American Left, the American Right, or both.
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Mark,
I note that some posters are disappointed that you seem to be concentrating on reporting essentially the American political scene (or even the "Washington" aspects thereof).
I'm sure we all miss Alistair Cooke and his unique letters, and it would be foolish indeed to attempt to replace him, but I do hope you can continue to broaden out your commentary as you have recently while 'saddled' with family duties and as evidenced by the Thanksgiving commentary.
I, for one as an American ex-pat, would miss your perspective on the political scene as much as I would enjoy your take on a visit to Jefferson's Monticello, the Blue Ridge Mountains, Appalachia (how about piece on 'mountaintop removal') or even Arnie's (and David Cunard's) California or Fluffytale's Ecotopia....Maybe you can even find an excuse to visit Hawaii and go bodysurfing?
Enjoy America (while it lasts)
;-)
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P.S.
Just a reminder that the above title includes the possibility (responsibility?)
of reports and ruminations about the rest of North America.....when is the Iditerod dogsled race? A visit to the Sea of Cortez? Take a copy of Steinbeck if you go to the last.
Further recommended reading includes "A Dance Called America: The Scottish Highlands, the United States and Canada" by James Hunter.
Happy Trails
;-)
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I read the speech; it's easier than listening to radio or watching TV, and I can stop and mull over what's in it without reaching for a remote.
@22 (tpapp157):"I guess it comes down to the fact that Americans have gotten a little skittish since the fiasco in Vietnam (and elsewhere like Somalia)...Shouting "Vietnam" is as mindless and unbased in reality as believing Afghanistan can be turned into a beacon of democracy."
Nicely put, but Americans have tired of war at other times (even WWII). FDR decided to allow some pictures of American dead in the Pacific to be released precisely to spur the Americans on in late 1943. This is another reason not to start a war if it can be avoided.
I think, though, that far too many Americans who came of age during the late 1960s / early 1970s still view and process today's world based on memories, emotional reactions, and "truth" from that time. They think that for some reason that time was "special" in some way, or that they discovered for the first time some "special truth" about human nature and humanity that was different from times before. Our leadership from both "sides" is in the same basket, which helps to make our politics so poisoned. News flash for folks trapped in this fashion:
a. This is 2009, not 1969, and has to be processed as such.
b. Human nature is the same now, with the same propensity to do evil as well as good, as it was in 1969, 1939, and for all time, because human nature doesn't change on its own.
c. The baby boomers didn't discover anything about humanity that wasn't known long before they were even a twinkle in their parents' eyes; any belief to the contrary is arrogant nonsense.
d. Just because some person or group is right or wrong on one issue, that doesn't say anything about their rightness or wrongness on another issue. Smearing issues together is itself bad behavior.
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Gary 14,
But not a lot wiser. I was impressed (and disappointed) by the overwhelming piteous cries of "Why would anyone do such a thing to us?" The air of injured innocence, as though we were surprised that anyone didn't accept that we were the "good guys"...
So any day now, we'll be able to tune in to Nightline to
the familiar and comforting sight of bombs over Baghdad. A
leather-jacket-clad SCUD stud cloned from the Arthur Kent
stable of selected-for-authoritative-and-reassuring-presence faux
journalists will solemnly and calmly tell us how our
Patriot missiles are hitting the mark every time, that
collateral damage has been kept to a minimum, that the
terrorist curs are on the run, and that that wasn't really
a baby formula factory we just blew out of existence.
And we'll put flags on our car antennas and tie yellow
ribbons 'round our old oak trees. We'll send valentines
and chocolate easter bunnies to our men and women in
uniform. We'll proudly take stock of how we've "come
together as a nation" and how "there is a new spirit of
pride in America," and we'll pat ourselves on the back
for a job well done. When the program's over, we'll sidle
over to the Frigidaire for leftovers and the last beer of
the evening. And then we'll fall asleep snug in our beds,
content in the knowledge that Dubya is watching over us,
and yes, he and Jesus love us, every one.
Meanwhile, in bombed-out office buildings and the rubble
of ruined apartments, in cellars and cafes and mosques and
vegetable markets, in Islamabad and Cairo and Karachi, a
new nation will be born - first only in the form of
unquenchable anger, an anger born of exploitation,
deprivation, and desperation. It will grow in the form of
a hatred as virulent and communicable as any biological
agent born in the bowels of the Pentagon. It will spread
from mother to daughter, brother to brother, father to
son, to be carried from one generation to the next. It
will be a nation without a leader, borders, or an anthem,
but a nation nonetheless. A superpower forged in the hot
coals of rage.The world over, tens of millions will look
at America, and pray for revenge.
And when the next airliner plows into a packed stadium in
Seattle or a nuclear plant in New Jersey, America will
cry, wail, fume, and collectively wonder why They Hate Us
So Much.
Welcome to 2003. Welcome to ground zero."
http://lists.topica.com/lists/msanews-list/read/message.html?mid=805245222
Cuts both ways, don't it?
Salaam, etc.
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The multiple murderous gangs that call themselves under some umbrella name that other recognize are not people a country can seek resolution with. They are commited to kill and die, not much room to talk. The Mumbai group from Pakistan give some sense of this. They were fascinated with sinks and running water in the hotels. Ignornat people filled with hate and told that their reason on earth is to kill the enemies of their god. It would be better to have Muslins deal with Muslims but there are few signs of that taking place. When the Taliban controled Afghanistan the result was oppression for the people and an attack on the US and other countries. Peace requires two sides seeking peace or one side dominating the other. These are not people of reason and when someone identifies themselves as fighting a "Holy War" you are not going to find compromise. There are groups in the US still fighting the Civil War in one way or another. Dresden, Hiroshima, Nanking, civilian deaths on a much larger scale.
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Afghanistan is not important to many Americans right now,right now it's the growing anger toward the rich and corporate elites and politicians of both parties in congress.Obama is going to have a Jobs Summit,however if nothing comes of it,which nothing will,anger will grow even more.Many people expected a troop surge and really it isn't an issue for them that Congress and media is making it out to be.They are more concerned with issues facing the middle class.
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faeyth #42
You are correct about the priorities. The Federal stimulus monies went to the State governments that took off a big share to keep State government employees, then, the local governments took what was left to keep their employees and nothing was left to create actual jobs. The President didn't understand that the business of government is business and government and the people do not matter. It is interesting that there is much more outrage of healthcare, that would actually benefit people than over the trillion given to banks that apparently is being distributed as bonuses for causing the greatest theft of funds from individual accounts in the history of the world. We can hope that the congressperson will explain to the banker why they are both being hung in the public square when the people have had enough. I would fear bankers and congress much more than the Taliban. Marines should be in every bank board of directors meeting with rules for engagement.
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14 Gary
" 14. At 10:27pm on 02 Dec 2009, GH1618 wrote:
"Killing people just makes other people angry." (from post #13)
Killing nearly 3000 innocent people on 11 September 2001 sure made a lot of Americans angry."
3 December 1984.
didn't piss off too many americans did it.
still I suppose the
Initial deaths (3-6 December): more than 3,000 - official toll
Unofficial initial toll: 7,000-8,000
Total deaths to date: over 15,000
Number affected: Nearly 600,000
Compensation: Union Carbide pays $470m in 1989
(taken from BBC news article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8390156.stm )
didn't count to them.
Nor can they be bothered to do something NOW.
like extradite that old guy to the trial he evaded.
Mark Mardel has not mentioned it. Great shame. today is the 25th anniversary of that day and yet again we debate the deaths of americans not the deaths caused by americans.
Lord and colonel
I thought Taliban had become "anyone who dares criticise america" . It seems that way.
I'm not agreeing but it seems that most americans basically think all Afghans are taliban.Any muslims MUST be taliban according to the US way of thinking as expressed o often by so many here.
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32
"(maybe he took a scientific survey :):)"
Survey says." world is flat and even younger than we thought. only 3000 and them evolving MRSA infections aren't evolving they are taliban insurgents"
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34 shivering and mindless
"Obama is still putting on his magic act..nuthin' up my sleeve folks...yeah, right!"
He's doing about what he said he would when he ran. He is concentrating the military effort in Afghanistan and pakistan.
The only majic is you can type but not read or listen.
Sure moan on strategy but you types that repeat this lie about his(obama's) two faced and letting you down just never listened.
you should more.
I tried pointing out where GW did the same truth telling but you guys took it the way that included compassion. he had sent prisoners in texas to death without reading the death warrants very well.
Yet you assumed he wasn't meaning the evil interpretation that I could see he was about( Personal opinion).He failed to read the report enough to see the words "may" (as in can for americans).
He got colin Powel to Lie to the UN and the american people.You assumed GW was truthful.
Yet here we have a president that does seem to have thought (remarkable compared to GW) about the deaths he could have on his shoulders,a reader that worked for the community (for which you all deride yet never derided the hang man of Texas) and seemed to take his duty seriously and you NOW want us to assume he didn't mean what he said but instead meant what you claim.
right or wrong decision Obama in my opinion is not out to line his own pockets.all he has to do to do that is write another book.
(There are a lot on the right that do this all the time. red chicken and Tino are classic.)
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#37. Lord Nathan: "Mark . . . I do hope you can continue to broaden out your commentary as you have recently while 'saddled' with family duties and as evidenced by the Thanksgiving commentary. "
Amen to that! The subject of Afghanistan is not even the headline in this morning's New York Times.
Incidentally, out of a population of 308 million, there were almost 41 million viewers of the speech while 'American Idol' can attract 63 million. Not exactly of overwhelming interest to Americans.
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37 lord. Why yes he could visit here I would be glad to make him feel at home. Hob nobs in the cupboard and ready to go.
If he comes in the summer there are top class swimming holes he could enjoy.
No doubt some local flavour as well.
After all this is the small town with the Big court.
For the Eco's to get tried in.
The town that supported terrorists, supposedly.
(reminder don't send food to the hungry it is terrorism)
Eu topia
Oh and today we have a civil war so 30 000 big monster tricks full of tail-gating "cretins" are going to be visiting from the next door town to join our 30 000 cretins in what they call the war of the roses.
PUUUUKE
Nah seriously Mark. Left coast. Bring the sprogs they'll have blast.
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"Similarly, the deaths of 40,000 Londoners in the Blitz made Britons angry, but at least they were fighting a known enemy, not one that was presumed." (from David_Cunard ar #16)
And the Britons responded in spades.
Al Qaeda was already known to US intelligence agencies prior to the 9/11 attacks, and had previously attacked two US embassies in Africa, so I don't know what you mean to imply by your use of "presumed." Osama bin Laden later claimed responsibility for the attacks.
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Has DC been torpedoed? Mods, you truly are morons!
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"was.....can" ???? apples.....bovine excreta?
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I don't know about the rest of you, but this republican is relieved that the President finally has a plan. This is a rare moment when I absolutely agree with the President. The griping may continue in some circles, but Republicans in Congress should know that now the ball is in their court and they should do their best to not dawdle the way the President did. It's not what many Americans want, and it’s not what I want my own Representatives to do. Do ya hear me, Mary Landrieu, David Vitter, and Bill Cassidy?
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Why do I get referred for wondering why DC has turned into a U-number?
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WOOW UBOAT ALERT
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?
MDS YOU ARE NOT GODS> WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON> WHY SO MANY U BOATS>
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what the hell is all this U boating
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#49 Gary
If I remember rightly, blame was put on Palastinians initially, then on Iraq. No-one quite believed bin Laden was capable of such an attack.
I notice that Mr Cunard has become one of the U numbers
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why are perfectly reasonable comments and responders being U boated.
they are not U numbers.
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#53 Seanspa
I just made a comment about that in my #56. Let's see if I get referred!
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you want SPAM. another U number.
why not the real name?
who the hell is playing?
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time for a revolt I say
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So has dceilar has gone too? Good grief, what's going on here?
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1887 dear DC it seems you have been torpedoed. but the intemperate mods.
I will try to remember you are the 1887 U number.
I hope they find the rest of U sometime soon.
There is a support group for U numbers out there.
;)
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sean I 'm not sure. but I will carry on wasting space till I get banned in support of him.
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AH DCeiler. 5449
You have been banned as well.
I see.
a shout out to David Cunard and DCeiler. U will be remembered
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who was 19
3523 recommended a book.
Sorry didn't catch your name
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MC J they got you TOO.
3523 MC J
Sorry to see you are U nder the weather. which infectious sould did this to U.
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56 s that U dceiler
I do get confused with these numbers.
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Beware if your initials are D C. Dive, dive, dive!
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Blog Trog Log Bog what the hell is going on you MOD erators. some PUNKS want to know.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
revolt revolt
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it's time to moult
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#58, I'd better start saying my goodbyes then!
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Not enought topic to your lunch
take a mod on a hunch
and give him a hit or a powerful punch.
STUFF THE MODS>
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46. At 5:20pm on 03 Dec 2009, fluffytale wrote
To: 34 shivering and mindless.
This note was longer and more serious than some of your posts on this and other strings. It was very straightforward and right on the nose as far as logic and interpretation. I think you were a bit too hard on Tino, though, as he sometimes makes a good point or puts forward a viewpoint shared by quite a few others.
I recommend that others read this post and those posts to which it refers.
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Tino Racist is still posting and the mods are U numbering everyone else.
Screw them. Sean at least you ain't numbered yet.
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Er, when I post, it says 'you' have posted. So how do we know if we have been sunk? Should I be checking my email?
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48. At 5:31pm on 03 Dec 2009, fluffytale wrote:
"37 lord. Why yes he could visit here I would be glad to make him feel at home. Hob nobs in the cupboard and ready to go."
If you can get MM to visit you, don't neglect to take him to Seatle's famous gremlin, statue of Lenin, and fishmarket restaurants. The US is almost as quirky as Europe, n'cest pas?
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Er, fluff, last one here turn out the lights!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So, fluff, if you are the last one left would you have long arguments with yourself?
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I believe there is a problem on these boards. I was unable to post to one string last night and today I was informed that I was logged on under another poster's name. If anyone else has experienced problems I think we should bring this to the attention of the BBC.
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mc J
lol no tino is a prat.
I relpied with a long list of time the muslims condemned terrorists but he ignored it.
His good points are falacies. red hearings and the views that so manyothers accept are the same pack oflies most of america lives with.
No need to recognise them lies.
or the way my comment that contained the links to disprove his assertion was removed by the mods.
the games are afoot.
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good bye folks.
Racist have taken this site retreat to the PBS site and regroup;)
lol
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#75. How on earth can the person who wrote this be sunk? Madness!
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lol No I'll break the lights sean.;)
Mc J
Lol I'll take him to Seattle. I used to live there and frog sales are probably better there.
do look for "skip bob bin laden "says get smithing""
next time you are surfing. If you are no longer allowed here.;)
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212 705 9300 (main phone)
this number is being posted for those that wish to contact the BBC directly
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main offices for the bbc in NY do not know who mark mardel is even, or so they say on the phone
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sean hell yes
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#83, I recall that there was a warning on the sports boards yesterday about changes to bring them into line with the blogs. Did the bbc contract out this work to the government IT suppliers?
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Fluff - I'm not on here very often (sigh of relief from the fluffy one!) would you be kind enough to tell me about this "U" stuff? Obviously, it's to do with posters getting sunk, but what's with the U numbers....sorry, I'm just not up on this.
Don't flee the sinking ship Fluff, it wouldn't be the same......if you go, I might come back more often ;) and we don't want that to happen coz I don't debate!
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It appears I'm U5595449 now! The buggers. I've been called worse things of course, but still a travesty.
If you click on preview before you post it shows your name as others see it.
dceilar
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ref #84
fluffytale wrote:
mc J
lol no tino is a prat.
I relpied with a long list of time the muslims condemned terrorists but he ignored it.
His good points are falacies. red hearings and the views that so manyothers accept are the same pack oflies most of america lives with.
No need to recognise them lies.
or the way my comment that contained the links to disprove his assertion was removed by the mods.
the games are afoot.
____________________-
Then I'll ask you the question colon would or could not answer when has Abdullah or the leader of Indonesia condemned terrorism by Hezbollah or Hamas?
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Redchicken is a sane and thoughtful poster. I hope he/she hasn't been chased away by illogical and ludicrous attacks.
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Wow, it seems the blog has melted down.
It might be time to launch the life boats and save the blog, Mark.
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#94 U7342575
Then I'll ask you the question colon would or could not answer when has Abdullah or the leader of Indonesia condemned terrorism by Hezbollah or Hamas?
Hasn't Indonesia been the victims of terrorists as well? Bali was pretty nasty.
dceilar
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Wow.
Fluffy, dear - what kind of seasoning are you using in your walnut-brownies?
If, in the event that anyone ever gives you my cell-phone number, it's a lie. It's not mine. Rly.
_________________________________
Okay - so on NPR this morning I caught the - ahem - tail-end of an interview regarding our recently announced mobilization. It helped me frame some of the gut-level concerns I've been having about all this madness.
What are we* going to do there?
Is this a Shock-&-Awe attempt to instill fear?
Are we there to re-build the infrastructure of an area torn by generations of war?**
Are we going to strategically remove mafia-style city-state power-brokers who are controlling localities counter to national governance?
Why would we do all this?
Are we in this to punish those responsible for 9/11?
Are we in this because of complex oil/materials/drug trafficking issues?
Are we trying to terminate a war-like non-democratic government system?
Are we in this because there actually is a significant military threat?
Are we just trying to gracefully retreat from a civil-war/religions-reformation?
Are we playing the role of international illegal drug cops?
Is there a real nuclear or 'terrorist' threat from the collective fundamentalist Islamic world that could actually be affected by this surge?
What will be the future direction/purpose of 'first world' military actions?
Peace-Keeping Enforcement? Then why aren't we in the Congo?
Drug-Police? Give me a freakin' break...
International Trade/Energy Coordination? Again... there are many resources in Africa...
Nuclear Arms Control? *cough* Iran *cough-cough*
That last bit is was what got me wondering:
Are we thinking about the future of the military in terms of globalized economy, ethics &/or energy? Should we be? Why?
-- Wow. Now, THAT's kinda disconcerting...
Maybe Afghanistan is just a staging area for global pomp and circumstance as all the various world powers flex our military arms? Ew. Yuck.
Well, it seems safer than a World-Wide Nuclear War, but I really feel for the children and goats in those poor Afghani mountains... as well as all those sons & daughters in uniform AND in head-coverings.
The moral of the story is:
There are still more questions than answers regarding all this nutty stuff.
_______
* I use "we," not for the USA, but in collective sense as in 'all those nationalities involved in the multi-national 'surge' scheduled in the coming months. We might have a majority-arms vote in the matter, but we ain't the only ones sending sons and daughters into the line of fire...
** In another NPR blurb last night I heard that Agriculture & Transportation personnel will be among those deployed. This makes me hopeful that we will be planting food and building roads... which would be good. Swords into plowshares and all that wot-not.
__________________________________________
Ah well. The timing of the announcement was eloquent. Over the summer, tempers run high, and lots of folks have plenty of time on their hands. Over the holidays, we're fat & happy and would rather be proud of our troops than pissed about policy.
Still - almost every 'person-on-the-street' interview I heard last night was negative... I think we might still have too many questions unanswered.
Ah well. I've been dealing with year end file storage and shopping online all day. So what do I know? I've got cards to write & cookies to bake. Off I go to my bread and circus...
(Let them eat brownies!)
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Philly Mom I think those are good questions. I can't help feeling the Afghan people are just pawns in all of this.
I think most religious zealots are pawns as well.
Find and follow the money men I sez, start at the oil fields.
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34: Shivvering --
So of course, Karzai is happy, he got a get out of jail free card and he doesn't have to worry about the corrupt unruly warlords, the druglords, or his criminal brother!
No silly - he's happy because he's the one with the cool hat!!
Ain't it a cool hat?
Azer-bindi-jihad-wossisname doesn't have a cool hat like that. He's not cool.
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There's yet another post questioning the mission in Afghanistan. (#98 by Philly-Mom)
Here is an excerpt from the President's West Point speech (taken from the ABC transcript to which I linked in an earlier thread):
"These facts compel us to act along with our friends and allies. Our overarching goal remains the same: to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and to prevent its capacity to threaten America and our allies in the future.
To meet that goal, we will pursue the following objectives within Afghanistan. We must deny al Qaeda a safe haven. We must reverse the Taliban's momentum and deny it the ability to overthrow the government. And we must strengthen the capacity of Afghanistan's security forces and government so that they can take lead responsibility for Afghanistan's future."
This could hardly be stated more clearly and it has been stated again and again. The details of how it will be executed remain to be seen, but don't expect them to be announced on the world-wide-web in advance.
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Oh -- Nasty on the hat facts
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51034,00.html
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Ref 99 frayedcat
"Find and follow the money men I sez, start at the oil fields."
That is where one finds the answers to ponderous questions, sez I in agreement. Don't just look in the oil fields. Might want to have a look at who's hiding in the poppy fields as well. Opium is just as profitable as oil. No cartels fudging with the supply quotas.
One might just be surprised at who might be found with poppy seeds in their pockets.
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Good point PD, but I can't think why opium traders would need or want Al Q/Spectre idealist jihadist zealots on their turf...don't they prefer simple pure evil henchmen without all that baggage? An' why dabble in wars and regimes and borders - why risk your valuable poppy fields to bombing just to harbor some teen terrorist training camp? I am imagining it's more like Afghanistan is the vacant lot in back of the grocery store where everyone sends the JD's to play. I think the moolah for the militant mullahs comes from the Saudis' neighborhood.
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#103 publius
What I don't get is that litre to litre (or gallon to gallon) orange juice is more expensive than oil (and orange blossom makes beautiful honey btw). So let's invade as many Iberian language speaking countries as much as possible. We don't need to own the orange groves, just control them. We need vitamin C more than we need oil.
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[THINK TANK SYSTEM OF SYSTEMIC MILITARY ACTION BIAS]
[10K/7K/5K/ or review]
The [EU/NATO] response to the Media Messiah Imperial Messiah seems to have been, well we will think about it, discuss it at the [NATO] conference, we will get back to you after our taught full deliberations. In less than [48hr.] forty-eight hours, the numbers are dropping in one direction down. The [NATO] North Atlantic Treaty Organization, will first provide an additional [10K] Ten-Thousand Troops, well not that many, maybe [7K] Seven-Thousand, but not until the [NATO] meeting at the end of January we saw the last [NATO] meeting it will almost warfare in the streets, then it's well maybe [5K] Five-thousand but not until after the [NATO] meeting, maybe a few more, maybe;
Britain, Georgia, Poland and Slovakia have all pledged more troops Poland are considering sending a few hundred more.
Belgians, Denmark France, Germany while calling the Media Messiah Imperial Presidents speck courageous, are being more cautious stating that for the moment there was no need for increasing the number of troops already committed, they would only look at what was possible both politically and realistically, when the request was made in concrete terms.
Italy, will send more troops but also will have to review both the political reality, but beyond that will remain unspecific for the present time.
[18 is 14 and Euros to Burn]
Now, if the withdrawal is scheduled for [18] Eighteen-months that means that [NATO] won't even discuss additional troops until [16] Sixteen-months are left, a months or so to them there [15] months, and another month or so to get them back home [14] months. And with Euros to burn there is the cost of this adventure upon the [EU] European Union, but the Economic Downturn is over and they have Euros to burn. And they will need them paying the cost to support the [400K] Four-Hundred Thousand Afghanistan Military and Police Force they are going to have trained and left there in just [14] months, plus the bill for [105K] One-hundred-five-thousand, [Contractors] Agriculture experts who have been [embedded] with the Empire Army (unreported for months), outnumbering the Empire troops even with the [18] eighteen month surge of Empire troops.
[The Deafen Silence]
And why the deafen silence of the normally vocal Republicans remain mute, with no loud attacks on everything the Media Imperial President has done, with no rhetorical shouting points repeated ad nauseum, just taking the high road with a few reasonable discussions over actual policy points? Simple vote with the Democratic, who vote for the Surge, hand the War of Economic Stimulus Blood for Money, Markets and Resources over to the Democratic, and when it goes sour, it’s the Democratic War. And with the elections only [10] Ten-months away and after [NATO] says it has looked at what was both politically and realistically possible see’s no need for increasing the number of troops already committed, the question will be how many new members in Congress has this speech cost, The Democratic eat their own.
[Think Tank Bias]
It is getting old when the as smart as they come, and often quoted, Think Tank Endowed chairs for scholars, [Biddle, Cordesman, Kristol, Kaplan, and Exum] dance for the pay and tune of the piper, the big defence contractors such as Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing, only and first answer to every policy question is [INVADE SEND THE MARINES THE SEVENTH FLEET], create more black op-sites, build large prison facilities, fortress Apache embassies, bomb them back into the stone age, we need to encircle the evil still [USSR] Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, posing as the Russian Federation. So what do we end up with an insane Surge with an [18] eighteen month withdrawal date. Like a Marine is going to risk his life in a surge when in [18] eighteen months there coming home for good. Some idiot office giving order to take a position that’s going to be the enemies in [18] eighteen months anyway, ya right buddy why don’t you go take it yourself, going home alive and in one piece seems the better plan. If this is the best the Think Tanks can come up with a war weary public, they aren’t as smart as they think they are, and it only took [95] ninety-five days.
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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Ref 104 frayedcat-
"...why risk your valuable poppy fields to bombing just to harbor some teen terrorist training camp?"
Please allow me to speculate, viewing the opium trade as a corporate business. Just for fun.
The Taliban came in with the idea of filling a power vacuum left by the collapse of the communist government and creating a fundamentalist Islamic state as a basis for the personal gain of the leaders. They came down hard on the opium growers. Took away their turf. Pretty much stopped the growing of opium poppies.
Opium Inc. did not like this. Production was slashed to the bone. Profits gone. Need to get rid of Taliban without incurring cost of their removal. Opium Inc. cannot go public for the removal of Taliban so they can go back to producing opium.
Al Qaeda needs a hidden corner of the world to establish training camps. Someplace the neighbors won't complain about big banging noises all the time. Find nice mountain locale in a still unstable Afghanistan with plenty of caves. Al Qaeda tells the Taliban that they are nice fundamentalist Islamic boys like themselves. Taliban says okay to move into mountains.
Al Qaeda is really a geopolitical division of Opium Inc. Or, maybe just some guys who like to make things go boom. No matter. They are expendable. They are an easy focus point. Sexy name. Will look good in the news. Give them a leader with an exotic name. Osama bin Laden. Rolls off the tongue; doesn't it?
Al Qaeda bombs a couple of U.S. buildings in foreign lands. Comes up with a plan to make a big scene in the U.S.A. to get lots of free publicity to stroke Al Qaeda leadership ego. They just like things that go boom.
U.S.A. reacts as estimated. Call to arms! Bomb something! Taliban won't let the U.S.A. come and spank Al Qaeda. U.S.A. bombs hell out of Taliban to get rid of them, and spanks Al Qaeda at the same time.
Opium Inc. poppy production rises immediately after Taliban gone. What does Opium Inc. care about Al Qaeda? Just a tool. News media keeps Al Qaeda alive and creates fear among the simple citizens of the U.S.A. and NATO nations. NATO keeps Taliban from returning to control the Afghanistan government at no cost to Opium Inc. Once again Opium Inc. makes huge profits each year NATO forces keep Taliban away from the poppy fields. Al Qaeda only needs to be a website from here forward.
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Ref 105 U5595449-
"What I don't get is that litre to litre (or gallon to gallon) orange juice is more expensive than oil (and orange blossom makes beautiful honey btw)."
Kilo to kilo opium is more expensive than orange juice. The oil racket is working quite well as a profit machine. One can jack-up the price of a barrel of oil if three people stub their toes in the oil producing nations on any given day; or the dog ate their homework; or their washing their hair. The consumer just rolls their eyes and fills the gas tank. (Free market economy not working at its best) Cusses those dirty...(choose your favorite target from any number of targets).
Heroin addicts don't give a hoot about the price of opium. They will get the money for the price of their drug to support their addiction. Don't care how much it costs.
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The problem with publiusDetroit's theory given in posts #107 and #108, above, is that, while the Taliban were, indeed, opposed to opium production when they were in power, in recent years they have become more pragmatic, using the opium trade to fund their operations.
India Times
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ref #97
U5595449 wrote:
#94 U7342575
Then I'll ask you the question colon would or could not answer when has Abdullah or the leader of Indonesia condemned terrorism by Hezbollah or Hamas?
Hasn't Indonesia been the victims of terrorists as well? Bali was pretty nasty.
dceilar
____________
But when have they condemned terrorist attacks against non moslems particularily Jews and Hindus?
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Ref 109 GH1618-
"...the Taliban were, indeed, opposed to opium production when they were in power, in recent years they have become more pragmatic, using the opium trade to fund their operations."
Not really a problem in the theory. Opium Inc. does not care about who or where the raw opium comes from to fuel their profit machine. The Taliban has caught on that it is a high profit business that provides them with a kind of private funds. Opium Inc., is able to move money as well as opium freely around the world under the money tracking radars.
The Taliban is interested in getting back their fundamentalist state. There may be a strong suspicion that the Taliban will once again ban the raising and processing of opium poppies once they regain Afghanistan. Opium Inc., has the Taliban out of its way now, why risk them backsliding into the total banning of opium poppy growing. Opium Inc., is an amoral business. Will do business...even with governments.
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107. At 11:38pm on 03 Dec 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
Ref 104 frayedcat-
"...why risk your valuable poppy fields to bombing just to harbor some teen terrorist training camp?"
Very creative, there is book in it if not a movie. However, I have heard tell that the Taliban were actually part of the drug cartel and they were cutting down on production to create unsatisfied demand "down the pipeline" so as to raise the price. You know, following the lead of "friends" of ours like the Saudis and their oil production/price manipulation.
There is a quaint tribal idea that robbing and injuring outsiders is no big deal. Just another possibility to consider.
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Ref. 98, Philly-Mom:
What are we going to do there?
For the time being, harass the Taliban with the forces in the field already. I believe they will not wait us out, that they will adhere to basic military strategy and attack when we are regrouping. Continue the drone attacks and search and destroy missions. Attach Afghan recruits to U.S. Army units to see if some esprit de corps rubs off. Reinforce NATO troops. Attack.
Is this a Shock-&-Awe attempt to instill fear? No, the Taliban are veteran fighters. They've seen it all.
Are we there to re-build the infrastructure of an area torn by generations of war? No, we can't afford it.
Are we going to strategically remove mafia-style city-state power-brokers who are controlling localities counter to national governance? Doubt it. I think if they produce for the people in their area, we'll find some way of spinning it as democratic reform, no matter what the truth is.
Why would we do all this? It's national defense. The Taliban believe they're doing God's work. They want the fight. So, we don't have a choice. I hope it doesn't take another spectacular attack to convince our countrymen of this.
Are we in this to punish those responsible for 9/11? Primarily we're there on a search and destroy mission against those who planned the 9/11 attacks to ensure that they can't do it again. If we come across bin Laden, Omar, etc., yes, we'll capture them and put them on trial.
Are we in this because of complex oil/materials/drug trafficking issues? No, Afghanistan offers the U.S. nothing in the way of natural resources. Frankly, we would have exploited any long ago if it were there. Some people argue that is has to do with some pipeline we want to build across the country, but the oil and gas companies have long histories of bribing third world officials and warlords and making an enormous profits in the process. It's the American way. The military isn't as effective. The British showed us that.
Are we trying to terminate a war-like non-democratic government system? Yes, but we're not seeing a lot of success. We could set up a military dictatorship like we did in the old days, but the only real choice is Omar, and he's the enemy.
Are we in this because there actually is a significant military threat? Depends on your definition of 'military'. If setting off bombs in population centers is considered a military activity, yes. Otherwise, it's a terrorist threat. Take your pick. I think the Taliban would choose 'military'.
Are we just trying to gracefully retreat from a civil-war/religions-reformation? No, when 9/11 happened the civil war between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance was already underway, and the Taliban had clearly achieved the upper hand. When we counterattacked the Taliban, the Northern Alliance was a natural ally. If we win, they win, but, no, we're not taking part to help the Northern Alliance. There's a separate issue between the U.S. and the Taliban.
Are we playing the role of international illegal drug cops? Yes, but drugs only figure into the conflict as a source of money for the Taliban. We need to cut off that source of income, which entails trying to bust up their drug businesses, which itself is traditional anti-drug policing activity. If it helps any heroin addicts in the process, so much the better.
Is there a real nuclear or 'terrorist' threat from the collective fundamentalist Islamic world that could actually be affected by this surge? The nuclear threat is as far as we know a potential threat at present. There is certainly a terrorist threat. This operation is meant to dismantle the primary source for threats of terrorist activity around the world, but there are others (Somalia, Yemen, etc). Most countries suffer from domestic terrorism. Certainly the U.S. has had it's fair share. This area exports it.
What will be the future direction/purpose of 'first world' military actions? More of the same, I should think. A war between two mechanized forces seems less and less likely to me.
Peace-Keeping Enforcement? Then why aren't we in the Congo? We've not identified a threat from the Congo. We're not on a humanitarian mission in Afghanistan. Given our economy the world is going to have to do without the prospect (or threat) of American peace-keeping activities for a little while. If we can bring Afghanistan to an acceptable conclusion (whatever that may be), it's America, come home.
Drug-Police? Give me a freakin' break...
International Trade/Energy Coordination? Again... there are many resources in Africa...
Nuclear Arms Control? *cough* Iran *cough-cough*
Nuclear arms are useless for third world nations. Any attack would result in their nuclear annihilation... for the rest of history. Remember, MAD requires both powers to be able to destroy the other. Third world countries can't afford to develop that kind of power (and we wouldn't let them if they could). However, they're very usable by terrorists. We worry that if nuclear weapons technology spread into the third world, the weapons might fall into the wrong hands during periods of political instability.
That was fun, thanks.
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I thk Publius' movie is pretty close to the true situation. I don't think the Taliban were kidding around because they didn't just cut down te production, but damn near killed it completely, at least according to the UN.
As to immmoderate moderation.
It's just another example of an out-sourced service going wrong, Good luck to the U-numbered folk, but where to pin the tail on the donkey....? Hint: check out classical languages for a word for moderation....(sounds a bit like emperor) and maybe search tipiglen
;-)
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U-something (113),
"The Taliban" are in the minority in the drug trade and thus only minority beneficiaries, and, as noted above are NOT a homogenous, centralised monolith.
We are the source of the grudge which feeds terrorist recruitment, even without the money we spent funding madrassas to stir up fundamentalist zeal against the "Godless Russians".....and our friends in the Wahabi Kingdom send plenty of money into that sphere too.
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The trouble with U is that when U look in the mirror, all U see is "you"
"Like a man travelling in foggy weather,
those at some distance before him on the road he sees wrapped up in the fog,
as well as those behind him, and also the people in the fields on each side,
but near him all appears clear,
though in truth he is as much in the fog as any of them"
-- Ben Franklin
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Ref 114 Lord Nathan-
"I thk Publius' movie is pretty close to the true situation."
Thanks Lord Nathan. All I was doing was following a money trail; in a rather fanciful way. One can grow opium poppies most anywhere. One can grow opium poppies without being harassed, or losing the crop to government eradication programs much easier in Afghanistan. Now that the poppy fields are under the protection of the U.S. government; with the help of NATO.
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Publius et al.:
Just to change the topic for a minute, do you remember a while ago there was a string on executive bonuses, how evil they were, and so on?
Do you remember there was a question about how a money losing company could possibly justify such high salaries?
We discussed it for a bit, and the point came up about the company going into a management death spiral as it bleeds talent to competitors who pay more?
Well, here it is, playing itself out at GM, pretty much as described in that earlier string:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8389984.stm
"But getting shot of Mr Henderson may have added fuel to the fire rather than calm things down. GM is bleeding talent, with Mr Henderson being just the latest, albeit the most high profile and perhaps the most highly rated, in a string of departures of valued executives who had seen their pay cut by about a third since the bankruptcy filing. "
""This could pose serious problems for GM, which may now find it hard to find not only a replacement for the charismatic car guy. Anyone stepping into his shoes will find his pay packet curbed by presidential decree, indirectly through "compensation czar" Kenneth Feinberg"
""The pay limits have made "the recovery of [the government's] investment that much more unlikely in return for some appearance of political responsibility and response at public outcry to executive salaries", according to a recent report by analysts at IHS Global Insight."
"It is a situation that Mr Whitacre is well aware of. "To find top-level people where you need them, that's a more difficult thing to do at that salary level," he said recently. "I don't think [the pay caps] will be lifted, but hopefully they'll be modified." So he is well aware that it could take months to replace Mr Henderson. "Simply put, GM cannot compete for top talent as long as its hands are tied from a compensatory standpoint," according to IHS Global Insight.
__________
The thing that really amazes me is that Henderson was earning about $1M/year. This is roughly what a mid-level partner at a top tier New York or Chicago law firm might expect to earn, doing a much smaller job.
(Don't get the wrong impression: those guys work brutally hard, and they have to be good lawyers to earn money like that. But still, it's a different order of magnitude).
You might get a fair idea that it isn't anywhere near enough money to attract the kind of talent it is going to take to clean up the mess at GM.
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Ref 118 InterestedForeigner-
AT&T was not unhappy to see Ed Whitacre packing up his desk. At first, everyone thought Ed to be an acquisition genius while CEO for telephone company SBC. He overpaid far too much for the acquisition of telephone company Ameritech, which should have been his undoing. Then came another overpayment for the acquisition of telephone company AT&T, that was merely a shell of its former self by the time Whitacre paid far too much for what was once an internationally known brand name in telecommunications. The name was pretty much all that was left of AT&T.
It can be debated whether Bell South bought AT&T, or AT&T bought Bell South. Whitacre was packing his bags not long after the 'merger'. Bell South executives quickly filled the seats of Whitacre's talented yes-men who were firmly attached to Fast Eddie.
During the time Whitacre was in charge of SBC/AT&T he seldom met objectives, yet collected annual bonuses in the 40-50 million dollar range for not doing his job well.
Whatever GM is paying Fast Eddie is too much.
As far as the talented, upper-level managers leaving GM. I do not see much talent there. GM is still being run pretty much the same as it was when GM was playing crash-dummy speeding toward bankruptcy.
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Ref. 115, Lord Nathan:
'"The Taliban" are in the minority in the drug trade and thus only minority beneficiaries, and, as noted above are NOT a homogenous, centralised monolith.'
I have no idea about the Taliban internal structure. My guess is that it's somewhat akin to the Scots of old. Why does it make a difference?
I do know that the drug culture is ruled by violence everywhere it exists. The Taliban are a group that can really bring it when they want to. There's no way that they're not getting a huge cut.
'We are the source of the grudge which feeds terrorist recruitment, even without the money we spent funding madrassas to stir up fundamentalist zeal against the "Godless Russians".....and our friends in the Wahabi Kingdom send plenty of money into that sphere too.'
True, but while grudges supply them recruits, they don't do anything to help supply their armed forces. Ammunition costs money. Food costs money. Clothing costs money. They are not super-human. They have very real needs. That's where their vulnerabilities lie. It may not be the sole source of their money, but it'd hurt them if we could throttle it. Our wealth is a major advantage. We should exploit it.
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119. At 03:42am on 04 Dec 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
"As far as the talented, upper-level managers leaving GM. I do not see much talent there. GM is still being run pretty much the same as it was when GM was playing crash-dummy speeding toward bankruptcy."
__________
Yes, I have no idea what they are going to end up doing. There is a huge adverse selection problem, made worse by the very limited alternatives in the recession. (In manufacturing, it isn't a recession, its that other word that we don't say out loud.) The very limited liquidity in the job market extends to only the very best and brightest, who you most need to retain.
Difficult times.
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Ref 121 Interestedforeigner-
"Yes, I have no idea what they are going to end up doing."
If you were to visit the GM Tech Center in Warren, Michigan you would find 3 work groups spread across a mile square campus. Each work group is triplicating the other. GM needs to either redefine product lines, or illuminate product badges as they did when Oldsmobile was dropped as a product badge.
Currently GM basically has three groups of engineers and CAD/CAM operators designing the same door latch for each of their product badges which are selling the same model car with a different grill and tail trim.
Redefining product lines, for instance, Chevrolet should be the economy line product; concentrating on one or two compact cars to manufacture along the lines of the Cobalt. Buick should produce a mid-size car. Pontiac become the sports car badge for Camero and Corvette. Cadillac the full-size luxury car.
Or, have Chevrolet producing compact and mid-sized cars with Cadillac producing full-size luxury and sports cars. Buick and Pontiac become historic names.
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68. At 7:30pm on 03 Dec 2009, seanspa wrote:
Beware if your initials are D C. Dive, dive, dive!
Squirrelpost:
You're not telling us both dc's have been aced? And MacJ?
Ridikulus!
(A prophylactic squirrel spell which cannot be posted here-- we have been conjuring spirits by moonlight among the young oaks -- may be found at redsquirrelparty[dot]blogspot[dot]com)
I hope the afflicted manage to resurface.
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Oh. Demise of Squirrel, again.
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Dag nabit! Right I might be back, it’s David Murrell in case this has failed. Apparently I turned in a U number (I am not a number I am a free man!), for some reason. When I checked my account my real name was there, so I hit the update button and it looks that for the moment I have returned!!!
Magic or U??????? – I think you will find that most of the Bali victims were not Muslims, many of them were Australian tourists. So when the Indonesian government condemned the attacks the Muslim government was condemning Muslim terrorism on both Muslims and non-Muslims.
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Well, happy Christmas, Merry Season, whatever. Mark, thanks, it was nice while it lasted. Stone me, squirrels don't half sink fast. Didn't know that before. All that time at squirrelschool learning to swim wasted . . .(And my real name's not even David. . .)
I will NOTplay these games again, T*m*e*o! Somebody get this nonsense sorted. I think a lot of contributors are owed an apology.
Bye-bye.
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125. At 08:59am on 04 Dec 2009, U13734021 wrote:
"Dag nabit! Right I might be back, it’s David Murrell in case this has failed. Apparently I turned in a U number (I am not a number I am a free man!)"
And I am a free squirrel . . .(somewhat more free than anticipated!) but I can't do what you did it seems. So, I refer my honourable friends to No 123 above.
(I am also a very angry squirrel.)
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ref #125
U13734021 wrote:
Dag nabit! Right I might be back, it’s David Murrell in case this has failed. Apparently I turned in a U number (I am not a number I am a free man!), for some reason. When I checked my account my real name was there, so I hit the update button and it looks that for the moment I have returned!!!
Magic or U??????? – I think you will find that most of the Bali victims were not Muslims, many of them were Australian tourists. So when the Indonesian government condemned the attacks the Muslim government was condemning Muslim terrorism on both Muslims and non-Muslims.
_________________
Yes but the attack was intheir country. i will spell it out when has either leader condemned terrorists attacks in Israel or India?
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ref #118 and 119
Related to he job situation what do people think of Obama's job summit.
Noticeble snubs:
The Chamber of Comerce
Manufacturers Trade Groups
So much for want everyone's input.
Who got invited that does not help the situation?
The thugs from the SEIU oh for modern day Pinkertons to fight them
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I must say his U number situation is pretty blooming stupid, I expect my name (if it is showing) will disappear shortly. It is nigh on impossible to carry on conversation when you cannot be sure who wrote what. You would have thought that the BBC mods, who seem to be still happy to refer comments and I assume send out emails to the ‘offenders’, could explain what is happening, what is being done to fix it and when it will be fixed.
While I enjoy this board, if this does not get sorted soon I will need to look elsewhere for my banter and baiting!
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Magic – When has the Swiss premier ever spoken out against terrorism elsewhere? When has the New Zealand Prime Minister ever condemned terrorist attacks in India? When has the Indian PM condemned attacks in Pakistan, when the victims weren’t Indians? All as equally valid questions.
DRM
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ref #131
U13734021 wrote:
Magic – When has the Swiss premier ever spoken out against terrorism elsewhere? When has the New Zealand Prime Minister ever condemned terrorist attacks in India? When has the Indian PM condemned attacks in Pakistan, when the victims weren’t Indians? All as equally valid questions.
DRM
_______________________
Major difference when the majority of terrorism in the world is done by people misusing Islam. there is not a world wide terrorism movement of Christinan, Jews, Hindus, Buhdihts, wiccans or Atheistis promoting their religion as justification for terrorism.
Stop dodging the question: major moslems leader do not do enough to denounce terrorism done in the name of Islam.
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130. At 09:41am on 04 Dec 2009, U13734021 wrote:
"I must say this U number situation is pretty blooming stupid, I expect my name (if it is showing) will disappear shortly. It is nigh on impossible to carry on conversation when you cannot be sure who wrote what."
Quite. It is utterly absurd that a blog which had finally achieved more of an even keel should be sabotaged by (it would seem) the very people charged with keeping it afloat. (All bad puns intended.)
(U14125741, formerly 'squirrellist'. I think.)
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Search tipiglen moderation
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U122.....
There is funding galore from Wahabi sources, and their wealth is an advantage well exploited....
The Northern Alliance (our good buddies) are and have for a very long time been the principal beneficiaries, and I have little doubt some of our 'covert' operatives have fingers in the pie.
The easiest way to 'throttle' the drug trade is to become the preferred purchaser at a price slightly above that presently received by the sll farmers, as I (and many others) have repeatedly suggested, but too many parties (including many on 'our side') like the 'black benefits.....
As to moderation, tipiglen has knowledge.
;-)
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Magic - Well your original question appears to have been when has Abdullah or the leader of Indonesia condemned terrorism by Hezbollah or Hamas, neither of which I would contend are world wide terrorist organisations.
According to the Jerusalem Post (17/7/2006) ‘many’ Arab leaders have publicly condemned Hezbollah, spearheaded by Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. While they maybe a Muslim organisation they do, in Lebanon, have a high level of support from Christians especially post 2006.
Even the US authorities state that Hamas’ activities are confined to Israel and the Occupied Territories, so unsure why Indonesia would have an opinion or need to condemn them.
Indonesia has condemned Al Qaeda, which is a worldwide terrorist organisation, though opinion on how unified it is differs (various sub groups turn up on the top 20 list of most attributed groups).
Also I am not sure that the leader of Indonesia is a major Muslim leader, I’ll give 10 points if you can name the president.
DRM
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It's difficult to win hearts and minds with guns and bombs. That said, the Obama administration is left with few options. Leaving Afghanistan to a resurgent Taliban could potentially present a crisis far worse.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Camberwell Of course you would be here more. spouting lies as usual.
;)
Look to gherkin for more
" Stop dodging the question: major moslems leader do not do enough to denounce terrorism done in the name of Islam."
stop dodging the reply Gherkin.
you were shown condemnations but ignore it and now say " well I specify this area. who said it there"
that is not good debate form. you say that NO OBE has condemned, then when shown pretend it doesn't exist.
136
why should indonesia be condemning hamas?
I 'm with you can't see what they have to do with it other than not being included in the condemnations I posted earlier.
Like I said back then.
just cause I don't read their language I will have a hard time finding condemnations.
but then I managed in 20 seconds of googling to counter the gherkin years old adage .
Glad you fans that are so upset that I manage to.
;)
Philly I'm not on brownies .
I am on why are names getting U boated.
why is it that so many are being culled.
If you would note it was not MY posts being deleted.
Hell I would be happy to see the last gherky post but not as a U number.
.
when You are U'd U will see how frustrating it gets.
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ref #140
why should indonesia be condemning hamas?
I 'm with you can't see what they have to do with it other than not being included in the condemnations I posted earlier.
Like I said back then.
just cause I don't read their language I will have a hard time finding condemnations.
but then I managed in 20 seconds of googling to counter the gherkin years old adage
_________________
So Fluff brain terrorism should only be condemned if it affects your country? Well Mumbai did not directly affect the U.S and Europe but was roundly condemned. Considering russia's lack of cooperation the U.S did not have to condemn the railrooad bombing? Why are you oblivious that the civilized world (those that know sharia is barbaric)is all under threat from Islamic terrorism
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Likely that AQ/Spectre in Afghanistan is a symptom not a cause, and it does have to be treated.
The SOURCE of the AQ problem is approximately 5 slightly chubby middle aged formerly blonde housewives currently living in London suburbs. You see this from the biographical info regarding Usama Bin Laden. Once upon a time, these ladies were young attractive co-eds at various colleges in the UK, and they snubbed the advances of certain dark skinned princes from the East, who at home could have people's hands chopped off with a glance - they giggled when these young men bowed for prayers.
Per Bob Marley, as long as nations have second class citizens, and a philosophy that people of certain skin color are superior to people of other skin color, there will be war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgWFxFg7-GU
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Help! Mark! Help!
Perhaps you could help out with a new post- maybe an examination of different approaches to moderation in Northamerica or the various parts thereof?
;)
See U later
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Magic – But many countries didn’t condemn Hamas attacks, ignoring your moving the goalposts (your original question, which I apparently ignored though I have stated on multiple occasions that I have little consideration any openly theocratic states or organisations, concerned Hamas and Hizbollah neither of which were responsible for the Mumbai attacks), do you condemn them as well? Or is it simply that Indonesia is majority Islamic (80.1% according to the CIA World Factbook), if so I will ask again where was the condemnation from the Vatican, Italy, France or Mexico for the London bomb attacks by the IRA.
The IRA is a nationalist sectarian Christian terrorist group that wants a free and Catholic Northern Ireland, despite the majority of the Province’s wishes. Unless you confirm otherwise I don’t recall at any point during the troubles when Mexico a Catholic country of over 111 million Christians condemning the attacks. While the population is less the attacks lasted 1971-1996, I believe 25 years more than balances the population difference. I trust since in that period the IRA (according to a low end estimate) killed 1,824 British people you will also condemn Mexico a major Catholic country for not condemning these attacks.
I trust that most posters will note the inherent flaw of condemning Mexico for not taking action against the IRA just because Mexico and the IRA are both openly Catholic. I believe the same logic applies to Indonesia and an attack in Mumbai.
Also please collect you 10 points Magic (aint the internet and Wiki a wonderful thing?), personally I don’t think the leader of the Democratic party, holding 2 US degrees and whose son is married to a model is really that representative of most Muslim leaders in the world. But hey Indonesia is only a democratic Republic, so it must demand our collective condemnation!
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Lord I'm with you . time for MArk to come out ad explain. new topic. Why is it so screwed up here.
Innocent IT mistake?
Gherkin. you fail to understand that when you ask a question and it s answered it is a little childish to then just start going around the world naming all countries and asking for examples of when they have condemned.
Do you think the government of Indonesia DID not condemn the attacks on their country???????
Did you miss the trials.
tell you what if I can show there was condemnation of the attacks by Indonesian officials will you give up and leave.
I have shown that your last stance was a LIE. and that Muslim leaders did in fact condemn the attacks of 9/11.
I should have tried to make this deal with you then. but then again we already went through this once before. you failed and never left.
so be it.
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Me Lordship
Apparently the BBC are aware of all these U boats suddenly appearing, and it is something that their technical team are currently looking into. Perhaps their technical team is an out-sourced group of ex-BBC & Granada employees too! It must be hard work counting all that money they get from the licence fee. Why don't we just give them a money printing press and be done with it.
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"I trust that most posters will note the inherent flaw of condemning Mexico for not taking action against the IRA just because Mexico and the IRA are both openly Catholic. I believe the same logic applies to Indonesia and an attack in Mumbai."
Gherky logic won't get it.
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Nathan, Squirrel, Magic et al.:
I have been trying to figure out why we have had this sudden red algae bloom of U numbers.
It is not made easier by the fact that it isn't immediately clear who the U-numbered posters are or were. Some are easy enough to identify, others, not so much. Perhaps if you would include your posting names in the text of the posts a pattern might appear.
So far, all the posters I have identified as now being allocated U-numbers are ones who have at some time touched on the topic that is the mother of black holes of this blog.
That is, I am wondering if it is an attempt by the moderators to deal with the recurrent tendency of strings on this blog to keep getting sucked down the Levantine rathole.
Something that is really odd, too, is that on a national security topic, we haven't seen Marcus in days. I suppose it's possible that even in New Jersey they have holidays.
Anybody have a better hypothesis on either phenomenon?
Yours,
I.F.
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when will you ask me to provide evidence that the muslim world has specifically condemned people making you out to be a racist.
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146 5449 Dceiler
ah so it is just a glitch.
thankyou
I had assumed so when I saw that Gherkin had been hit.
that sort of thing has not happened before.
A comment by the BBC though would have helped;)
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IF the disappearance of MA is strange.
but then he may have been playing dress up.
who knows.
Maybe he's fighting an extradition warrant to India;)
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#148 IF
Anybody have a better hypothesis on either phenomenon?
Yes. I sank his battleship!
DC
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0RQ59-fq2g
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"The government of Indonesia strongly condemns the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, India. The terrorist attacks are cruel and inhumane acts," the foreign ministry said in a statement. "The government of Indonesia conveys its deepest condolences to the government of India and the victims along with their families, and hopes that the perpetrators could be swiftly arrested and be brought to justice." – Indonesian condemnation of the Mumbai attacks.
“Iran is also a victim of terrorist attacks and is ready to fight against such evil acts on all levels."[62] He also expressed the sympathy of the Iranian people and government toward the Indian nation and the families of the victims.[63] President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad condemned terrorist attacks saying that they aim at destabilizing the region, and added, "I am sure that the sinister phenomenon [terrorism] can not hinder the development of the nations of the region" – Iranian condemnation of the Mumbai attacks
"The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia strongly condemns and denounces this criminal act, and offers condolences and sympathy to the friendly government and people of India." – Saudi condemnation of the Mumbai attacks.
You will note these Islamic countries condemned the Mumbai attacks. True none of them mentioned Islam, then again none of the condemnations did including from the USA or Israel.
DRM
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"Indonesian leaders have unanimously condemned the latest outrage with President Bambang Yudhoyono flying to Bali on Sunday (2/10) to personally survey the destruction, console the grieving, comfort the injured and coordinate the intensive manhunt for those responsible for the attack"
http://www.balidiscovery.com/messages/message.asp?Id=2793
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Thanks fluffs - more inspiring clips promoting international peace and unity - the top 10 world cup goals http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj4RxCWYpW0
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gherky
you forget that Muslim countries are attacked as well.
is that cause it doesn't fit your reasons.
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"You will note these Islamic countries condemned the Mumbai attacks. True none of them mentioned Islam, then again none of the condemnations did including from the USA or Israel."
cause they are smart enough to not be Obvious racists;)
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"Stop dodging the question: major moslems leader do not do enough to denounce terrorism done in the name of Islam."
Not a question.A statement.
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InterestedForeigner (#148) " ... we haven't seen Marcus in days."
He has been posting on Gavin Hewitt's Europe blog.
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MArk I hope it is just a glitch any confirmation. after all we do feed you with ideas. some respect back. sorry we don't all find Afghanistan so thrilling.
but this is even worse.
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Re: the appearance of U numbers
I remember earlier this fall the BBC switching over to a global id for all of its web pages. I have a feeling that a couple nights ago that new system crashed. Evidently they haven't given up trying to recover the data, because they haven't asked us to re-register, yet.
Just a guess.
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Ref 154 U1374021
You forgot to note any condemnations from Iceland, New Guinea, Tuvalu, Pitcairn... :-D
One cannot reason with another who confines their thoughts to a singular issue, believing that issue to be the only righteousness. It is as futile as trying to move a great stone with only a toothpick as a lever.
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http://www.islamicate.com/islamicate/2008/12/muslim-condemnation-of-mumbai-attacks---india-and-pakistan.html
We convey our profound feelings of sorrow and sympathies to the grieving families of the unfortunate victims of this heinous crime and express our solidarity with them.
http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=3364
DRM provided a few.
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162
848 I click on your name and the comment awaiting moderation appears;)
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160
I had a feeling he was just elsewhere;)
damn;)
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and no fulcrum ;)
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ref #158 and 159
Fluff Brain they refuses to denounce terrorism against Israel.
Let's be honest if this was two moslem countries fighting over this land. No one would care about the Palestinians it's only because Israel has a majority of Jews that Palestinian war crimes are excused.
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"Something that is really odd, too, is that on a national security topic, we haven't seen Marcus in days. I suppose it's possible that even in New Jersey they have holidays."
InterestedForeigner-
Our beloved Emperor of All Things American must be busy taking inventory of his wine stocks in the vaulted cellar under the trailer. Holiday season, you know. Marcus would not want to be caught without the finest selection of wines on hand. Just in case a visitor might drop by.
Marcus! Are you lurking out there somewhere? We need to know from you what those dreadful Europeans are up to these days. Are the French stacking their arms in preparation for retreat? Are the British cooking their Christmas goose?
:-D
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nah palestinian war crimes are the use of unguided rockets that miss just about everything.
the Israeli war crimes are the use of highly accurate planes to deliver cluster munitions and white phosphorus on civilian areas.
as well as the use of human shields and shooting with ,again, highly accurate snipers.
Two muslim nations fight "
what like Iraq and Iran?
PS Who are "THEY"
"they refuses to denounce terrorism against Israel."
well may be they do think it just fine.
after all you have consistently said Isreal should treat palestinians (to quote you "DOGS" "PIGS" "unworthy of life"" evil terrorists""no innocents""all guilty" ) as inhumans to be killed.
PS you haven't denunced any action by israel except when they try to be fair.( which isn't often" at which stage you call them self hating.
Why should they denounce violence against Isreal.When Israel has not denounced the violence of it's inception.
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No. 34: most intriguing.
HK was being disingenuous. Come on, the real reason -- or a big part of it -- was t was a Proxy War, and they were exceedingly well-supplied.
Sorry to see all the distress caused by some kind of underhanded untoward ubfuscation.
But cheers anyway, the rest of "youse" / UU-s.
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I will condemn all killing. But you never like that.
You ask why I should condemn the killings of" scum."
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Magic – So condemnations only matter if they are applied to terrorist attacks against Israel? I also assume Mumbai was also only mentioned because of the siege of the Nariman House. While I appreciate your religious bias, you do seem to be rather blinkered.
For hopefully the last time I am an atheist I view all religions equally flawed and have no preference for one over any other. I find it easy to condemn both Israel and the Palestinian/Lebanese terrorist organisations for their activities. My condemnation is based on their actions, not because of which deity they kneel before. Sorry nothing written in a book hundreds or thousands of years ago should be used as justification for actions done today.
Having reviewed your posts today you do seem to like moving the goalposts to try and get you point across, I suppose it makes it easy to ignore others answers to your questions (especially those that are actually statements), since obviously they never answered the question you meant to ask. It might make it easier for us if you settled on what your question actually was.
DRM
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The best solution for U boats,Johnny Walker RN,thats Required Neat,not
Royal Navy...
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Fluffytail-
Case in point of one who can only focus on a singular issue:
Ref 168 U7342575
"Let's be honest if this was two moslem countries fighting over this land. No one would care about the Palestinians it's only because Israel has a majority of Jews that Palestinian war crimes are excused."
It must be like being confined in a dark closet with only the company of one's own madness.
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THE EMPIRE SURGES AS [EU] STANDS DOWN IN [AF-PAK]
[[EU/NATO] THINK TANK VS EMPIRE THINK TANK]
[NATO] The North Atlantic Treaty Organization, has promised to send at least [5K] Five Thousand not [10K] Ten Thousand more soldiers to Afghanistan. The [EU/NATO] response to the Media Messiah Imperial Messiah and the Empire Think Tank has not only been, well we will think about it, discuss it at the [NATO] conference, we will get back to you after our taught full deliberations. In less than [72hr.] Seventy-two hours, the numbers are dropping in one direction down, in addition too a Stand Down of Offensive Military Action replaced by Defensive Military Action by the [EU/NATO] has been ordered. [NATO] was at first to provide an additional [10K] Ten-Thousand Troops, well not that many, maybe [7K] Seven-Thousand, but not until the [NATO] meeting at the end of January we saw the last [NATO] meeting it will almost warfare in the streets, then it's well maybe [5K] Five-thousand but not until after the [NATO] meeting, maybe a few more, maybe, The question is: Where will they come from? And what’s the catch?
[Where will they come from?]
[NATO] Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said that the alliance members would send at least [5K] Five-Thousand Troops.
The following are considering to pledged sending more troops, a few hundred more, saying that their soldiers can go – [BUT NOT FIGHT.], mostly from rapid deployment forces, to be used as military trainers.
BRITIAN: [500] Five-hundred.
GEORGIA: [900].
POLAND: [600].
PORTUGAL: [150].
SLOVAKIA: [250].
ITALY: Washington has requested that Italy provide an additional [1.5] One-Thousand-five-hundred troops. Italian Defense Minister Ignazio La Russa confirmed that Italy, will send more troops but this decision was again also reviewed both realistically, and in the realm of political commitments, rather than numbers, had determined that the and will only send around [1K] One-Thousand additional troops, raising its presence troop commitment to roughly [3.7K] Three-Thousand-Seven-hundred. And, that [1.5] One-Thousand-five-hundred troops extra troops request forwarded to Italy by the Empire would have been, [a maximum quota that Italy would never reach]. The other catch again, is the Standing Down form Offensive to Defensive Combat Operations.
TURKEY: Is looking at whether if at all it should boost its training role in Afghanistan. However, Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul has made it clear that Turkish soldiers will [Not be part of any Offensive combat operations.
[No Decision until after NATO meeting in late January]
BELGIANS, DENMARK, FRANCE AND GERMANY: While calling the Media Messiah Imperial Presidents speck courageous, are being more cautious stating that for the moment there was no need for increasing the number of troops already committed, they would only look at what was possible realistically, in the realm of political commitments, rather than numbers, and again [But Not to Fight] when the request was made in concrete terms, say they will not make any decisions until next year. Germany says it won't consider increasing that figure until after the [NATO] an international conference in January. Washington has asked France and Germany to provide an additional [2K] Two-Thousand troops from Germany and [1.5K] One-thousand-five-hundred from France, with both stressing their commitment only to building up local police forces only, and would no longer take part in combat actions of an offense nature.
[The Catch]
The [EU/NATO] Think Tanks in [72hs] Seventy-Two hours, in view of the [18] Eighteen-month time table set by Empire Think Tanks, after [95] Ninety-Five Days of decision maked without conciliations with the [EU/NATO] Think Tanks, will order its troops remaining in [Af-Pak] and new troops to be deployed to take only Defense Operations, while in the process of the assigned task of training [400K] Four-Hundred-Thousand Military and Police personnel, which operation will be complete on May Day [1st May 2011]. Which means as the [30K] Thirty-Thousand / Corp. Level Surge, at a cost of [$30B/€20B] Thirty-Billion-Dollar/Twenty-Billion Euros, takes place the [50K], Fifty-Thousand, [EU/NATO] Field Army, will stand down from Offensive Combat Operation, any financial or other support beyond [1st May 2011] to be made by the [EU/NATO] nations has not been made.
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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293
glad you liked the blacksmithing bit.(other thread)
but it was no metaphor.
alchemically justified, well that's a different science.
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lol DRM. and put a question mark after so we can know it is his question;)
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ah the sword in the stone bit was the metaphore > sorry;)
like I say I was just pointing out what is obvious to all smiths about that phrase.
it could be a very simple explanation but we tend to look fr the more dreamy version when writing tales;)
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#174 ukwales
The best solution for U boats,Johnny Walker RN,thats Required Neat,not Royal Navy...
Do you think Captain Morgan might also help?
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seems the drink did help some.
well done wales
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I think my name has changed to my account name! Well at least I'm not a number!
dceilar
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everyone comfortable in their new skins?
But yet again Lord has been singled out for daring to confront the masters of Chaos;(
To speak the name that brings DEATH.
To be linked to the glen with them pesky red skins in them . (by the look of the housing).
comon ,fellow bloggers ,
one for all and all for one
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lol DCeilar thats you.
I C U are OK now. good.
so your real name is spanners;) and you are 71 years old?
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#49. GH1618: "I don't know what you mean to imply by your use of "presumed."
The president of the time linked Iraq to the attack - that was the presumption - and which was wrong. Nevertheless, it was the reasoning for the invasion of Iraq.
"Osama bin Laden later claimed responsibility for the attacks."
Quite so - not Saddam Hussein.
#51. Lord Nathan: "was.....can" ???? apples.
Not apples or oranges - the numbers illustrate the disparity of viewing habits in America. Had the President's Neilsen rating been in the 60 millions, then that would have demonstrated great interest, but it wasn't and it didn't. Americans appear more fascinated by competitive television shows than political speeches. Ask yourself how many people would rather watch X Factor than Mr Brooon. Since he is a real Scot, no doubt you would watch him regardless of the choice of programmes.
- David Cunard
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David_Cunard (#185), ok, but I was not referring to the Iraq war, because this thread is about Afghanistan. It was known that al Qaeda was in Afghanistan and Pakistan (and elsewhere) during the Clinton administration, and by the time the US attacked Afghanistan, it was known that al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
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No. 154: DRM: Highly laudable of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and I would like to take them at their royal word.
Then again, there is the problem of money from Wahabbist zealots -- many with close ties to the House of Saud -- who continue to fund jihadists & outright child-murdering, captive-beheading terrorists.
And there is also the problem that people like the Ft. Hood shooter are not inhibited by these declarations.
I would prefer more than a "condemnation": I would prefer an outright Fatwa against anyone who attacks unarmed citizens in any land.
And another Fatwa against anyone who gives money to Muslims for the specific purpose of waging jihad.
That would, indeed, impress me. Is it too much to ask?
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" ... the numbers illustrate the disparity of viewing habits in America."
Except that the 60 million number is bogus:
Nielsen - American Idol
The American Idol viewership number is about 30 million (average), and more recent reports have it down to about 25. If it was ever 60, it must have been for some special episode. Also, radio listeners must be taken into account, which would only add to the West Point speech, not AI. Lots of people driving at 5 to 8 pm (depending on time zone) would have been listening, without showing up on Nielsen. More people would have listened on an internet feed, again without being counted by Nielsen. Then there are those who are satisfied to read a summary in the newspaper or to hear the highlights on the late news.
I agree with LN that it's apples and oranges. Comparing the two is a pointless exercize.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Maria ashot
"And another Fatwa against anyone who gives money to Muslims for the specific purpose of waging jihad."
again Northern Ireland springs to mind.
few claim to have given "specifically"to kill babies. they give to support the widows and orphans fund.
Really most contributions to the IRA were made for these reasons. yes it was diverted to buy some guns and ammo.
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160. At 4:26pm on 04 Dec 2009, GH1618 wrote:
InterestedForeigner (#148) " ... we haven't seen Marcus in days."
He has been posting on Gavin Hewitt's Europe blog.
__________
... because we all know of his great affection for all things European.
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103. At 10:16pm on 03 Dec 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
Ref 99 frayedcat
“Opium is just as profitable as oil. No cartels fudging with the supply quotas.”
One has heard of the Taleban curtailing production in order to raise prices. This sounds familiar, rather like what the oil producers’ cartel does, n’cest pas?
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173. At 5:29pm on 04 Dec 2009, D R Murrell wrote:
“I view all religions equally flawed and have no preference for one over any other. I find it easy to condemn both Israel and the Palestinian/Lebanese terrorist organisations for their activities.”
I have heard it said of the troubles in Ulster that religion was just a handy cover for social and political machinations. It is always about power and proving superiority. I tend to agree, and assume that you might agree, too, but with the proviso that some people are motivated by religious or mental flaws.
I too [full disclosure statement: I used to be a supporter of Israel, purchasing memorial coins and bonds] condemn both sides’ excesses. I can no longer support Israel because of their excesses. I can’t support the Palestinian cause either because they are guilty of excessive barbarism.
Both sides appeal to religious supporters, and both sides justify their actions by appealing to holy writ.
IMHO it is hypocritical on both sides because Torah says “thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s goods…or anything that is thy neighbour’s” [hello Israelis, this includes land], and the Koran demands that Muslims respect “the People of the Book. [hello Muslims, this includes both Jews and Christians].
McJakome
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187. At 8:11pm on 04 Dec 2009, Maria Ashot wrote:
"I would prefer more than a "condemnation": I would prefer an outright Fatwa against anyone who attacks unarmed citizens in any land.
And another Fatwa against anyone who gives money to Muslims for the specific purpose of waging jihad.
That would, indeed, impress me. Is it too much to ask?"
Absolutely NOT too much to ask. It is time that people take responsibility for their acts, including proxy by way of money donations.
Well said, I'm with you all the way on this one.
McJakome
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fluffy, totally agree with you on the IRA.
However, we are currently dealing with a set of barbarians and barbaric mercenaries operating on a considerably larger scale, all over the globe.
There was a fundamental discrepancy between what the Irish terrorists were doing & what their Holy Writ specifically states. Yes, I can see how that would confuse a lot of people by making it appear Christians are all a bunch of murderous hypocrites.
The fact remains, that Christians who kill over political or religious arguments are certainly pretty much damned to hell by the teachings of their Lord & Saviour, Who said: "whatsoever you do, or fail to do, to one of these little ones, you have done to Me."
Not a good situation if you think you can somehow justify mayhem & murder along doctrinal lines.
Notably, even before the Good Friday Agreement, Pope John Paul II, as head of all Roman Catholics, did repeatedly ask for forgiveness, in a formal and public way, for crimes committed by Catholics against others, especially "in the name of the Church."
We have never heard anything similar from an imam or ayatollah or mufti -- not even from the "moderate" ones who, for the most part, appear to get along with others, for example in Russia, where there are many Muslims from Central Asia and parts of the Caucasus.
We also have many hundreds of points in the Qu'ran when Muslims are Commanded to Slaughter Infidels. This is a very efficient formula for conquest. It played a huge part in the history of many European countries, when people who refused to embrace Islam (by desecrating the venerated objects of their own religion) were mercilessly slain, often in agonising ways (to encourage others to stop resisting) and then their property -- including their children, wives, skilled but frail relatives who posed no military threat -- were seized, sold, traded.
Human "property" was brutalised and sold for a profit whenever this was deemed expedient.
In fact, one of the aspects of the Muslim Conquest that Islamic leaders like to keep mum about is their huge part in centuries and centuries and centuries of the human slave trade.
No one says anything about the size of those fortunes (which, believe me, dwarfed the petroleum treasure considerably). No one ever speaks of reparations... Even in the USA, there is talk, from time to time, of amends and reparations to the victims of American slavery or the slaughter of First Nations.
But no one, ever, brings this matter up within the context of Islam. Even though the records are there: in the notoriously efficient archives of the Ottomans, which modern Turkey inherited; and all over the Middle East, where the principal slave markets were.
Why can't these matters be discussed?
And doesn't it make the IRA seem a little trivial, by comparison, however barbaric & repugnant they are from the perspective of the English-speaking world?
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"Who said: "whatsoever you do, or fail to do, to one of these little ones, you have done to Me." "
"We have never heard anything similar from an imam or ayatollah or mufti -- not even from the "moderate" ones who, for the most part, appear to get along with others, for example in Russia, where there are many Muslims from Central Asia and parts of the Caucasus."
maria I m with Mc J on the
"IMHO it is hypocritical on both sides because Torah says “thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s goods…or anything that is thy neighbour’s” [hello Israelis, this includes land], and the Koran demands that Muslims respect “the People of the Book. [hello Muslims, this includes both Jews and Christians]"
you know I have no time for any argument that ends with "so lets kill them" none. no excuse.
I see it that the Quoran says "don't be killing peopel" in teh same manner.
I do not see that a few taking t he Quoran and using it to excuse violence as condemnation of all muslims or the quoran. I do not accept that the quoran says kill kill kill as is made out here.
like I say the old testament says a eye for eye tooth for tooth and Christians in the states QUOTE that every time they defend the cruel and barbaric practice of murdering people they have deemed OK to kill.
i see hypocricy in saying the Quoran is used to excuse killing but not the Bible.
"It played a huge part in the history of many European countries, when people who refused to embrace Islam (by desecrating the venerated objects of their own religion) were mercilessly slain, often in agonising ways (to encourage others to stop resisting) and then their property -- including their children, wives, skilled but frail relatives who posed no military threat -- were seized, sold, traded."
Did you ever hear of the "spanish inquisition"
not the Moorish inquisition.
Note that.
Do you know how many slaves were sent to get religiously saved. that was the christian basis for excusing the slave trade.
" Even in the USA, there is talk, from time to time, of amends and reparations to the victims of American slavery or the slaughter of First Nations."
yea then how come they can't even recognise that certain tribes Exist. let alone reperate them.
seriously . American Lefties have talked a lot but America says "ell no" quite consistently and clearly.
"Even in the USA, there is talk, from time to time, of amends and reparations to the victims of American slavery or the slaughter of First Nations."
"And doesn't it make the IRA seem a little trivial, by comparison, however barbaric & repugnant they are from the perspective of the English-speaking world?"
trivial. tell that to those that lived with fear of bombings for 30 years.
The IRA were Catholic and the fought against Anglicans.
Both Christian.
BTW.
Two terrorist groups of the same religion fighting each other.
same book really same Christ.
yet they murdered each other.
Not only muslims fight.
You isolate one christian terrorist group and exclude other CHRISTIAN terrorists but take the whole of Islam and point to all theirs.
So maybe I was right to assume you were more like Gherkin than you pretend.
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195. At 11:48pm on 04 Dec 2009, JMM wrote:
187. At 8:11pm on 04 Dec 2009, Maria Ashot wrote:
"I would prefer more than a "condemnation": I would prefer an outright Fatwa against anyone who attacks unarmed citizens in any land.
And another Fatwa against anyone who gives money to Muslims for the specific purpose of waging jihad.
That would, indeed, impress me. Is it too much to ask?"
----------------------
Are we willing to reciprocate? No Giving money to Christians or Jews, no attacking any unarmed citizens of any land?
Or do you have a double standard?
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I have to say Lord Nathan is being unusually quiet today.
I find this suspicious.
I happen to know that others have found them selves U boated then reinstated then left high and dry as their posts magically disappear between clicking "posted comment" and showing up on the board.
No mention of the attempt to post. no referred or removed posting. just like they didn't even hit send.
off to ether.
. Eventually the poster gets a message saying "you were kicked out of here and we told you not to come back"
Now Lord Nathan is an important part of this community. why has he been singled out as the one to ban. r have there been others culled as well.
I suspect the Gherkin and the kitty will turn up. MA was strangely "out of the office" during this time.
( a remarkable coincidence seeing as this has happened before and he was "out to lunch" on that occasion as well.)
Lets hope we see some sign of the laird soon.
he did keep me from going off at the hip as much as I would if there were no nathan.
and camberwell I know that would upset you and I wouldn't want to do that .
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Mr Cunard, "Not apples or oranges - the numbers illustrate the disparity of viewing habits in America."
Nor even hawthorn berries. Your comparison was between an 'actual' and a 'maximum possible', not to mention the 'golden apples' of politics and the 'ugly fruit' of tabloid 'reality'
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Hmm. I see once again Jack engages in revisionist history to suit the ideas in his fluff brain. Very sad, especially since he cannot see his own actions and continues to blame others for his getting banned from blogs. It seems his vicious outbursts are always the fault of someone else. I for one will no longer bother reading any of his posts as he is afflicted with twisted tunnel vision, in exactly the way his foe MagicKirin is albeit from the opposite end of the tunnel. And so many seem to think this is somehow free-spirited and cute... when it's just sad.
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201 LOL bere,
Your Obsession is heart warming.
But then you didn't read this.
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199.fluffytale:
Let's hope not. But some odd things seem to have happened with our screen/sign in names the last couple of days among most of us who were U-boated. Let's hope he's just puzzling out how to change 'BraveEagleheart' back to 'Lord Nathan' or something like that. I only lose an 'l' in the process, but you'll recall dceilar was transformed into a spanner. Very unnerving. How would I have explained a 'Purple Tyrelever Party' I ask myself.
Anyway, most people who matter know where Party Headquarters is . . .
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203 Squirrelist.
I think he was scuppered for good. U know how the old ways linger. purged for life. I can't figure out why.
After all I'm still here.
but then I have a even temper. Obama has been quite the political genious in my opinion
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# 92 MagicKirin wrote:
"The problem is tags [sic] too many posters like John in dublin [sic] and Fluff Brain see liberal always good, Obama as messiah etc."
Fluffytale can speak for himself. As for me, this is yet another MK lie, without evidence. Where have I said Obama was the messiah or liberals are always right? Nowhere. All my postings can be accessed here. MK is a stranger to the concepts of 'proof', 'evidence', and 'spelling'.
"The objection I have is people [sic] insist you have to follow their rigid doctrine in al [sic] things."
You could not make this up. MK is lecturing the rest of us about our rigid doctrinaire approach. This from the person whose stance on the Middle East never strays from 'Israel Good, A-rabs Baaaaad', for whom any force used by Israel is by definition self-defence, and any criticism of Israel [or indeed MagicKirin] is by definition anti-Semitic and/or Nazi. Pot, kettle.
"But when you have 3 polarizing idealogical [sic] figures who don't have the ability or flexibility(Obama, Pelosi Reid) you cause major troubles."
Apparently on MK's planet, you have a Republican party that is non-ideological and non-partisan, which is both filled with ability and noted for its flexibility. If only that were true on Earth...
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To MagicKirin #168
"Let's be honest..."
Do you believe that people who do not denounce your posts actually support them?
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lol John. yep I never called him HIM or anything like it. I do take issues with people that can't read telling me they interpret HIS;) words better than I do when they show no understanding of basic english. (and mine you note is pretty basic)
lol I joined the republicans when I came here, but I was flexible enough to swap when I realised what a bunch of Losers they are;)
Marko but they must. his posts make so much sense.
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When someone or some countries decide to start a war against anyother country just because they dont like the leader, personal grudge, then they have to lie to justify the war, and then after a few yrs, lets say 9, the lies and hatered becomes internalize..the extremists just reflect back at you...obama and the rest of civlized people dont even blink an eye when they order the extremists to death, and then turn around pretend and expect that they are liberals or less extremists..The world has within 9 yrs become extremist..this too fast development, just like climat change..it took decades for climate to change although the west messed the earth in the name of industrial development and fast transport, since climate is a natural thing so it took decades, the extremism is human state of mind, and 9 yrs , was enough to turn everyone 50 degrees more extremist in 9 yrs. whatever their belief be.
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198. At 5:59pm on 05 Dec 2009, Crataegus Monogyna wrote:
Re 195. At 11:48pm on 04 Dec 2009 McJakome, and RE 187. At 8:11pm on 04 Dec 2009, Maria Ashot
I won’t presume to speak for Maria, but there is wisdom older than Christianity and Islam that says, “Do as you will, but harm none.” In a simple world one would not harm nor support any who harm innocents. It isn’t so easy nowadays, but we should all try. One should not speak ill of others, even if they speak ill of one. Also difficult to live by, but we have to try.
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