State dinner: the hottest ticket in town
President Obama is preparing for his first state dinner at the White House, given in honour of the Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his wife, Gursharan Kaur.
The guest list and the menu are top secret until tonight but the chef-of-honour is a naturalised American born in Ethiopia and brought up in Sweden, who is a politically apt choice for this White House.
At the weekend I heard him on the radio talking about Thanksgiving as a celebration of America's strength as a country of immigrants, and giving a recipe for collard greens and bok choy in coconut sauce which might go down well with the vegetarian prime minister.
The black-tie dinner is the hottest ticket in town and the Washington Post has already reported on the style pitfalls of previous such events, suggesting to potential guests that formal elegance is better than anything eye-catching.
I am sure the president's attire will be as sober as possible, but the move is politically bold, when America wants to be good friends with both Pakistan and India. It has obvious pitfalls on the brink of an announcement of strategy in Afghanistan.
India has made substantial investments in Afghanistan and this traditionally worries Pakistan. It has been put forward as a strategic reason why some in Pakistan's intelligence service support the Taliban, as a solid counter-weight in Afghanistan to India if and when the Americans leave.
The US envoy to the region, Richard Holbrooke, told a news conference yesterday that the Pakistanis shouldn't read anything into the honour. He said that although it is typically a European leader who gets the first such invitation, "someone has to get the first trip" and Mr Obama decided it should be India. But it should not be read as a diminution of the relationship with Pakistan, he said.
But it is pretty obvious relations with Pakistan will loom large in the less formal part of the visit. If that makes Pakistan nervous, perhaps that is the intention.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~00~RS~)
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"The US envoy to the region, Richard Holbrooke, told a news conference yesterday that the Pakistanis shouldn't read anything into the honour. He said that although it is typically a European leader who gets the first such invitation, "someone has to get the first trip" and Mr Obama decided it should be India."
Which is precisely why I'm thrilled that Pres. Obama invited Prime Minister Manmohan Singh as his first guest to a state dinner. India is an up and coming power and it deserves recognition. I would highly recommend the fascinating book "In Spite of the Gods: The Strange Rise of Modern India" by Edward Luce. I finished reading it a few days ago.
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I think, more than anything, this is a signal for the rest of the world to know that it is not business as usual anymore for US foreign policy. Sure there are signals being given to both India and Pakistan. But, and more importantly, the signal is that Obama's White House is determined to embrace the world, and no longer wants America to be viewed as a Euro-centric "colonial" style power.
After the disastrous Bush years of pre-emptive warfare, sadistic psychos running black prisons and a cowboy lawlessness that pervaded nearly every aspect of American life, this is something Obama must do if America is ever going to regain her reputation as a fair and open society. And yes, that will mean moving away from Europe quite publicly. The first state dinner of a new presidency generally sets the tone for what can be expected foreign policy wise down the line.
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After the disastrous Bush years of pre-emptive warfare, sadistic psychos running black prisons and a cowboy lawlessness that pervaded nearly every aspect of American life, this is something Obama must do if America is ever going to regain her reputation as a fair and open society. And yes, that will mean moving away from Europe quite publicly. The first state dinner of a new presidency generally sets the tone for what can be expected foreign policy wise down the line.
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Although I applaud the move of inviting the India PM to the first State dinner. This is one of the few good moves Obama has made in foriegn policy.
Bush has proven to be far wiser and more realistic about the world. We would not be goingthrough the farce of a civilian trial for terrorist, betraying our friend on his apology tour etc.
I'll take a cowboy over a community orginizer any day
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It's the implication of the last two lines (and the WSJ piece) that depress me. Here we have two countries which have had a very difficult relationship for the last 60 years; we have both sitting on a tinderbox in Kashmir; on top of that, we have this constant conflation among the media and the US punditry of Afghanistan and Pakistan as though they are the same of 'AfPak' . . .It's as though the current Washington thinking has written off Pakistan as an inconvenience.
To pull out the whole of the fancy head of state welcome kit for the Indian Prime Minister is I think a somewhat foolish diplomatic move in the circumstances. it runs the serious risk of making Pakistan feel very nervous that it may yet be 'afghanised' and reduced to a failed state, not by its own actions necessarily, but by American weaponry--and they are bound to suspect that there may be in future some Indian-American alliance that will exclude Pakistan, whatever it does in the next few years. If nothing else, some in the army are bound to suspect even more nervously than they may already, that their nuclear armoury may even now be subject of a plan to be handed over to India. . .
(It may be, btw, that, as the WSJ so carefully points out, that this visit is also the anniversary of the terrorist attack on Mumbai; but to concentrate on that would also be diplomatically foolish, since India faces its own internal Muslim--and Hindu--violent and armed factions. But I suspect we will hear a lot about Pakistan-based terrorism, and little else . . .)
I fear that the US's entanglement in Afghanistan, it's use of Pakistan to aid Mujahadeen when the Russians occupied the country is not going to do India, Pakistan, or Kashmir any useful service in the future. This looks suspiciously to me like another example of clumsy diplomacy based on very short-term considerations rather than an example of diplomacy that will lead to a more secure future in the much longer term.
How long will it be, I wonder, before we hear the same pundits, 'opinion followers' (and their followers here) telling us that the US is bored with it all, and 'AfPak' is now 'the region's--i.e. India's--problem to sort out? In less than 5 years, I'd say.
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4. At 09:12am on 24 Nov 2009, Gavrielle_LaPoste wrote:
"the signal is that Obama's White House is determined to embrace the world, and no longer wants America to be viewed as a Euro-centric "colonial" style power."
That may be the image that might be spun to the public and media, but the US is still playing colonial games of favourites, spheres of influence and setting up rivals. If you think carefully about Obama's visit to China, it looks fairly obvious nothingof any substance came of it; the Chinese have chosen their own path (whatever exactly it may be), and decided on their own spheres of influence and economic activity in the world for the next couple of decades, and, having successfully ridden out the US-caused world recession and near-financial collapse, really don't care very much.
It all goes back to some of what was discussed in a previous thread: Obnama may have a nice stock of words and phrases, but there is no constructive or coherent vision or purpose behind them. It's not altogether his fault, except that he does not appear to have any real thinkers to call on, it's more a consequence of a country concentrating with such tunnel vision on its 'war on terror' and its domestic impact while forgetting much of the rest of the world has been forging other, broader directions.
(Sharing that tunnel vision, thanks to Tony Blair, has screwed up Britain, too, as far as any effective relations with India and Pakistan--and much of South East Asia as well--are concerned.)
(I am going to be popular, I can see.)
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Most of the comments that I have read so far are overblown in their analysis. The US continues to cultivate its relationship with India for a very straightforward reason -- India is a bastion of democracy and stability in a part of the world where 9/11 was hatched and which continues to be a major breeding ground for terrorists. Apart from this, India offers an alternative model to China and is also a growing economic power.
Too much is being read into Mr. Singh being the first state guest of Mr. Obama. It is interesting to read the tea leaves, but let's not take the conclusions too seriously!
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Mark,
And a clever move, possibly a strategy to be applied elsewhere, one might hope...
Sciurus,
Au Contraire, it sends notice to Pakistan that the "assistance" it receives from America in no way indicates any imbalance or favouritism regarding Indo/Pak relations. Would that a similar 'honest broker' stance were credible in "another place"
I do agree on the matter of the tragic legacy of using Pakistan and the SIS as a channel.
Here's hoping.
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ref #6
(It may be, btw, that, as the WSJ so carefully points out, that this visit is also the anniversary of the terrorist attack on Mumbai; but to concentrate on that would also be diplomatically foolish, since India faces its own internal Muslim--and Hindu--violent and armed factions. But I suspect we will hear a lot about Pakistan-based terrorism, and little else . . .)
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I think you are not realizing the importance of India. Largest democracy in the world, another major economic player and important factor in the war against islamic terrorism.
Like the U.S,U.K and Israel India has been a target.
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"Thus, the story of Pakistan continues to be one of despotic regimes using religious extremists and external support to keep the secular democratic forces at bay; and when these forces do assert themselves, to tie them down in legal constraints that are designed to ensure their failure." - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6940148.stm
Squirrelist, I think you misunderestimate Mr. Obama when you say: "Obnama may have a nice stock of words and phrases, but there is no constructive or coherent vision or purpose behind them..." I think he is showing both a comprehensive grasp of world and national politics AND a brave, independent agenda to straighten out a thing or two or five. He himself has said his goals will take more than 4 years to achieve fruition but that he cares more about getting them started than about his own re-election (a refreshing change from the self serving power hungry double speak we are accustomed to). Like Carter/Reagan, it may be that another office reaps the benefits of the policies he puts in place....but hopefully (unlike Reagan with US economic policy) his successor won't do as much to unravel them.
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off topic, Brazils leader host the terrorist supporter Amandejiad before he goes on to two other terrorist supporting nations Venezuela and bolivia.
I was hoping bettet from Lulu, considering Iran had been caught red handed for smuggeling arms to terrorists. Not to mention Brazil's open society would be condemned under a Sharia type of goverment.
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Loath though I am to trivialise this important issue...I recall a story about a previous Indian visitor to the White House.
Years ago Alan Whicker had a series on the BBC called something like Whicker's America. It was quite a clever idea, in that it was primarily talking to British people who'd emigrated to the US and their experiences - eg one guy had been a policeman in the UK and then got a similar job in the US.
One of the people he spoke to had been the White House Director of Protocol. In her time there, there had been a visit from Morarji Desai. He was the Prime Minister of India, but was probably most famous for his belief in urine therapy - he allegedly drank his own every morning.
He attended a State Dinner in his honour at the White House.
And, as the Director of Protocol observed
"When he reached for his glass of apple juice - you could have heard a pin drop..."
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As opposed to supplying the Mujahadeen with weapons through ISI?
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This is a smart move by Obama: he kills two birds with one stone.
Firstly, it sends a message to Pakistan that US aid is not unconditional - the US could switch attention to India if Pakistan made a mess of things. And if there is one thing Pakistan fears most it is India: it's friendliness with the Taliban and its support for its own Jihadi's has to be seen in the India context. They use these people as cheap soldiers. Of course this policy has turned around and bitten them on the backside now. The last thing Pakistan wants is an assertive India, backed with a nudge and a wink by the US, looming on their border - especially whilst Pakistan itself could dissolve into Anarchy. Pakistan is weak at the moment: now is the time to turn the screw. Get serious about your militants or else. Bush might have threatened Pakistan directly. Obama chooses the implied move. Subtle but the Pakistani diplomats won't miss it.
Second, China and India have a somewhat tense (but well managed) relationship and a simmering border dispute - which includes Kashmir if you look into it. Obama has to be careful to balance the relationship between China and India. After all the fuss that has been made over China recently, he needs to pivot in the opposite direction. And India matters: whilst it might not be haring along at quite the same pace as China it may well end up tortoise-ing past it, if (and I suspect when) China gets to its Gorbachev moment. That is to say - when the economy has advanced to a stage where authoritarian government becomes so inefficient as to cause enough problems to seriously undermine the Communist party's economically derived legitimacy. Whilst China continues to improve the standard of living of its population as a whole it will continue under the present system. But when things tighten, as inevitably they will...who knows? India, on the other hand, is already democratic (if suffering under the weight of corrupt dynastic politics) and is, as such, well placed to transition into an advanced economy rather more smoothly than China. All this is decades away and things may well change, but my worry is that China will bring the global economy down with it if it fails. It's too big, too integrated to fail with causing massive problems for everyone else. At least the Soviet system was a parallel one, a sort of second rate capitalism that existed apart, and as such it didn't mess the rest of the developed economies up too much when it collapsed (but it did cause massive problems for the developing ones). Keeping India sweet helps the US to diversify away from China...and they might be backing the winner unless the Communist party manages the transition successfully. And then maybe Axel Rose will be proven right!
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One must wonder what world the Bush/Cheney defenders live in...certainly make believe.
India is concerned about the US leanings (debt) to China. The US needs to be a player in that growing region of the world. Both China and India face growing internal problems as the distribution of wealth is very uneven in each country and political corruption is a historic problem. China has about the same number of people in poverty as there are people in the US and India is in that category as well. Environmental pollution will create massive health issues in both countries and water is becoming a limited resource as both continue to grow. Pakistan is a major problem but it is a problem for India, China and the US. This region is the center of some of the pressing problems in the world and we need a President that is not the handmaiden for oil interest or the initiator of the financial collapse as with the previous administration. Addressing these issues should be a priority and the outcome is much more important than the financial problems in Europe or the attempts of the Republicans in Washington D.C. to rewite history and deny their fostering of the greatest theft of taxpayer dollars in history by their banker friends and non-existent oversight and failure in the primary responsbility to protect the interest of their citizens.
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People ...whether Indians or Pakistanis are very much the same.
But Governments...Indian govt is a democratic govt whereas we have Mr Zardari the president of Pakistan with the sword of NRO hanging over him and a lot of his friends and the real power is with the Pakistan army.
So who should India talk to ? Isnt Pakistan a failed state...as a dictatorship and also as a democracy? Terrorism, Nuclear Proliferation, Aggression being the standard policy of that state.
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7. At 10:18am on 24 Nov 2009, squirrellist wrote:
"If you think carefully about Obama's visit to China, it looks fairly obvious nothing of any substance came of it;..."
"... It all goes back to some of what was discussed in a previous thread: Obnama may have a nice stock of words and phrases, but there is no constructive or coherent vision or purpose behind them."
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I am reminded of an old Swiss saying: "Wann wissen wir, der zug ist abgefahren." (By the time we know about it, the train has long since left the station.)
How does anyone know? Somethings you can guess easily, but others, not so much.
There are so many big portfolio issues open not only between China and America, but also between India and America. It seems to me that it will take time to undo a number of previous policy errors, and neither China nor India like to work in a goldfish bowl. These are patient, discrete cultures. Some of what they do is visible, and some of it is far less visible. And by the time we know what really happened, the train may be a long, long way out of the station.
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Fully one third of the world's people depend utterly upon Himalayan glaciers.
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Mark, it would be more awesome if you were on the guest list for the state dinner.
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13. At 1:53pm on 24 Nov 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
"off topic, Brazils leader host the terrorist supporter Amandejiad before he goes on to two other terrorist supporting nations Venezuela and bolivia.
I was hoping bettet from Lulu, considering Iran had been caught red handed for smuggeling arms to terrorists. Not to mention Brazil's open society would be condemned under a Sharia type of goverment."
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And how do you know that these meetings are not helping the US?
Brazil has been a long-time, mostly under-the-radar, friend and ally of America. Brazil has its own interests to pursue, but many times Brazil's interests coincide with America's interests.
Do you really think Brazil wants this comic opera loose-cannon causing trouble in its back yard? Which do you think is better, inviting the man for dinner and then delivering a quiet message, out of the glare of the press, to Chavez to cool it; or yelling at the king of bombast over the airwaves?
The same thing, except different, applies to speaking to Ahmadinejad. Why do you think he was invited to Brazil?
Brazil aspires to sit at the top table, to be taken seriously in the councils of serious players. It sees itself as a force for calm and stability. Brazil doesn't shout.
The Brazilian government is well informed, and knows when its interests parallel America's, even if it serves everyone's purpose for it not to appear so in the newspapers. How long do you think any Brazilian government would survive that was cloyingly sycophantic?
No, in the words of your hero, you "misunderestimate" both Lula and Brazil.
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ref #22
And how do you know that these meetings are not helping the US?
Brazil has been a long-time, mostly under-the-radar, friend and ally of America. Brazil has its own interests to pursue, but many times Brazil's interests coincide with America's interests
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The many attempts to work through third parties: Germany and France have failed.
Why is it so hard to understand the global threat Iran represents and that they can not be trusted?
Brazil unlike chavez and Morales has not tried to intefere in other nations internal politics they should build on winning the Olympics and being the true spokesman for the South America not the thug and dictator Hugo and his syncopants Morales and Corea.
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ref #15
Lord Nathan wrote:
"considering Iran had been caught red handed for smuggeling arms to terrorists."
As opposed to supplying the Mujahadeen with weapons through ISI?
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Why not stay in the present? Iran was caught red handed no condemenation from the U.N or the Arab league. Great oppurtunity missed by Obama to call on arab nations to show solidarity with the victim Israel.
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@7 (squirrellist): "...it's more a consequence of a country concentrating with such tunnel vision on its 'war on terror' and its domestic impact while forgetting much of the rest of the world has been forging other, broader directions."
This is another example, if one were needed, of the decrepitude of the institution of Congress, and not just the current residents, either, or the ones before them, or the ones before them.
a. They control the budget, and we are $57-58 trillion in debt. This disaster has been building for far longer than just "the past 8 years" or similar nonsense.
b. They control the tax code, and at its best it is a behemoth that nobody anywhere understands; it has nested and aggregated loopholes for the affluent, and punishment for the rest. At its worst it is an ideological weapon. This is another disaster that has taken many years to metastasize.
c. They control the law, and far from being a bar before which all tremble, it is the preferred weapons system of the 21st century. The lawsuit, far from being the means whereby some measure of redress is meted out for civil wrongs, is now the neutron bomb (destroys the soul and spirit while leaving the mind and body functional to service the winner). Of the three, misuse of the law as practiced and allowed by the Congress is probably the worst, because as our citizens have confronted this misuse of the law, they have responded by devaluing the rule of law in general, because they cannot trust it. For a nation which is supposedly "a nation of laws", this devaluation of the rule of law destroys our foundations. It will not easily be recovered from, if at all.
In an earlier topic Gavrielle LaPoste wrote an excellent summary of how a large bill is reviewed. What was not discussed is what political calculations go through those staffers' heads as they review and write comments, and especially what calculations the chief of staff of Pol A goes through as he works with and advises The Boss.
Recall that while civil servants are governed by Civil Service regulations, Congressional staffers are not, because they aren't civil servants. That being the case, what is the potential for misbehavior on the part of the Congressional staff relative to that of Executive Branch civil servants? My estimation is that it's far higher, because who polices them? The Ethics Committees? Don't make me laugh.
This is not to say that Congress cannot possibly do better, or that it does everything badly. It appears true, however, that their actions absolutely do not comport with their span of responsibility, and that a thorough housecleaning is in order.
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25. At 3:18pm on 24 Nov 2009, arclightt
The problem is with the American public. Everybody hates Congress (look at the polling done), but nobody hates their own representative or senator. They vote them back in every time.
Robert Byrd has been a senator since 1959, I bet the majority of West Virginians claim Congress is inefficient, corrupt, and useless; however they vote in Mr. Byrd every 6 years.
Don't hold your breath for term limits.
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Magic – To be accurate Israel has said that they caught Iran red handed, Iran didn’t reacted in any way, meaning that Israel was probably correct. The ship in question was not Iranian, did not come from Iran was not heading to Israel, we only have Israel’s say so that who was really behind the cargo, what that cargo was and where the final destination was going to be. Not really that red handed.
Also since the arms never got near to the terrorists Israel said was going to get them I am not sure how they fit the criteria of ‘victim’, if anything their pro-active action prevented them from becoming victims.
Just as I question whether Israel is always the victim some would like to make out, I also question whether Iran is really the bondesque villain state some like to paint it. Yes its leadership are to Western eyes pretty repellent and I accept that a very close eye needs to be kept on it, I am just not convinced it is the imminent threat it is made out to be. Possibly after the spin regarding the threat to the West used against Iraq, I have become cynical about listening to similar warnings, from the same people, about Iran.
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Present? Was?
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument
--William G. McAdoo
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Name ONE country attacked or invaded by Iran in the past two centuries
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China,Our debts with China are not an issue but a cover up Americans own most of the US debt and China although owns the most foreign debt is not that much more than others US also holds a significant amount of Gold Reserves,and China needs our currency to by resources from other countries,because Europe doesn't have enough debt and no one wants Chinese currency, China is Blackmailing the US and our companies and other countries with it's monopoly of Rare Earth Elements (used for every technology including military,our government doesn't want to admit they left us dependent with military manufacturing on a foreign nation)mining which they will have for about 2-4 more years.China is making a pathetic attempt to dominate Asia with their limited time,developing as quick as they can,which we help because every one know Russia will develop into a power again and US and Western Europe can only hold back Russia for so long.There are many book written about balancing regional world powers.China was a try at balancing a region, but they will soon be in Russia,s shadow once again because Russia still has a more advanced military and civilian infrastructure and more resources and less people they only need to update themselves with some technology.In the next few years we won't be talking about China much.And China will be giving large amounts of their money to Russia soon,if they want to continue developing.Iraq War was also about balancing regional Power both of our political parties voted for it,why because Israel and Turkey are looked at as outsiders to the middle east and Iran is stuck in a weird Religious out dated Cold War mentality,Iraq was the only place our politicians could develop a regional power,Afghanistan is a 3rd world poverty stricken Nation.It all goes to political science and our Woodrow Wilson World Policies.Russia will probably develop fast like Germany or Japan.India is worried because China is stuck now with their political ideology and are overly defensive against other nations.They only want Tibet because of Water for agriculture which India also gets from their side of what used to be Tibet,India gets the same thing without being Jerks to the Tibetan People,I don't think India would ever divert water from going to China but they are a paranoid government,which makes others not want to do business with them,I mean China will never want Koreans to be unified.China is overly aggressive with it's neighbors like India.
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#15 Lord of the Glen
As opposed to supplying the Mujahadeen with weapons through ISI?
And supplying weapons to right wing death squads in Central America!
#16 Was_Guillaume_really_in_Egypt
Firstly, it sends a message to Pakistan that US aid is not unconditional - the US could switch attention to India if Pakistan made a mess of things.
Shouldn't the US be sending the same message to Israel?
#29 Lordship
Name ONE country attacked or invaded by Iran in the past two centuries
I think the last country Persia attacked was Babylon a thousand odd years ago, as well as kicking the Romans out of Palestine.
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Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday,
the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the
people of these States to the service of that great
and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of
all the good that was, that is, or that will be;
that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him
our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and
protection of the people of this country previous to
their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold
mercies and the favorable interpositions of His
providence in the course and conclusion of the late
war; for the great degree of tranquility, union,
and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the
peaceable and rational manner in which we have been
enable to establish constitutions of government for
our safety and happiness, and particularly the
national one now lately instituted for the
civil and religious liberty with which we are
blessed, and the means we have of acquiring
and diffusing usefulknowledge; and, in general,
for all the great and various favors which
He has been pleased to confer upon us.
--George Washington, President, 3 Oct 1789
First official presidential proclamation issued in the US.
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Faeyth,
Paragraphs, please!
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ref #29
, Lord Nathan wrote:
Name ONE country attacked or invaded by Iran in the past two centuries
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Through their terrorist proxies: Israel and Iraq
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ref #27
David Murrell wrote:
Magic – To be accurate Israel has said that they caught Iran red handed, Iran didn’t reacted in any way, meaning that Israel was probably correct. The ship in question was not Iranian, did not come from Iran was not heading to Israel, we only have Israel’s say so that who was really behind the cargo, what that cargo was and where the final destination was going to be. Not really that red handed.
(Iran did react they lied and said there were no arms)
Also since the arms never got near to the terrorists Israel said was going to get them I am not sure how they fit the criteria of ‘victim’, if anything their pro-active action prevented them from becoming victims.
(We don't know how many shipments got through but Hezbollah is rearming and Iran is their patron and master)
Just as I question whether Israel is always the victim some would like to make out, I also question whether Iran is really the bondesque villain state some like to paint it. Yes its leadership are to Western eyes pretty repellent and I accept that a very close eye needs to be kept on it, I am just not convinced it is the imminent threat it is made out to be. Possibly after the spin regarding the threat to the West used against Iraq, I have become cynical about listening to similar warnings, from the same people, about Iran.
(Would you have been cynical about the threat from Hitler?)
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29 ah but by not attacking they are showing that they want to;)
I'm practising to win a gherky
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Go on I'll say it. Gherky how about supplying that terrorist state Israel with weapons.
we Know we do that.
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Ref 13, Magic
"I was hoping bettet from Lulu, considering Iran had been caught red handed for smuggeling arms to terrorists. Not to mention Brazil's open society would be condemned under a Sharia type of goverment."
The biggest difference between Lula, Chavez and Morales is not substance but style. Lula is pursuing the same socialist objectives, and is achieving them at a very rapid pace, while Chavez wastes his time engaged in Bush-style name calling to pursue his "Bolivarian" dreams.
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I wonder if a certain extradition request will get discussed?
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At 3:56pm on 24 Nov 2009, Lord Nathan wrote:
Name ONE country attacked or invaded by Iran in the past two centuries
Iran has attacked no one directly in the last two centuries--largely because Russia, Britain and the U.S. kept it occupied or under their influence. However, that is not an indication that Iran's current leaders have peaceful intentions. They have made no secret of their belief that Iran is the rightful dominant power in the region and they seek to restore their country's historical influence. Nor have they refrained from meddling in the internal affairs of other countries in the region by supporting militants and insurgents in Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen and Afghanistan.
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34 "through their terrorist proxies."
No you were asked how many it had attacked.
Isreal has attacked others through proxies.America.
It has also said "you attack or we will" they bombed a facility in Syria.
Children lost their fathers.
America has attacked the people of south america several times through proxies.
then there is the involvement against Russia and the involvement in africa and involvement just about every where, Through proxies, let alone the outright invasion of others several times.
By both the US and Israel.
By rights we could be discussing the bombing of the nuclear facility in Isreal by the UN.
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Scott (40),
A bit like the USA, but without the actual invasions and occupations, eh?
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"Iran is the rightful dominant power in the region and they seek to restore their country's historical influence."
Yea and Russia is the light of the world. America the land of the free and the UK is ruled by Britannia.
Big deal.
Israel sees themselves as the dominant military power. they also seek to restore their "historical" lands and probably some influence as well.
Hypocrite
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ref #31
#16 Was_Guillaume_really_in_Egypt
Firstly, it sends a message to Pakistan that US aid is not unconditional - the US could switch attention to India if Pakistan made a mess of things.
Shouldn't the US be sending the same message to Israel?
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The Obama administration has acted shamefully to one of our best allies but pressuring Israel to stop building settlements on their land.
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ref #38
The biggest difference between Lula, Chavez and Morales is not substance but style. Lula is pursuing the same socialist objectives, and is achieving them at a very rapid pace, while Chavez wastes his time engaged in Bush-style name calling to pursue his "Bolivarian" dreams.
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I don't believe that Brazil has stolen foriegn companies assets like Chavez has done with oil companies, telcomunications and Hilton hotels or punitivly taxed one ethnic group and given special privlidges to his own the way Morales has.
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40
Meddling in internal affairs of other countries.
Did you see the meddling we did in theirs?
Hell there are a pack here that see it as their only goal. Deride Iran while ignoring their own behaviour.
Did you know Israel used to transport Hash to the egyptians to stop their army fighting?
meddling.
how about them trying to break up the PLO by encouraging other groups. in gaza and the west bank.
How about assassinating the leaders of the people of Palestine, removing those who may have calmed down and replacing them with those left alive, the youth , angry and in fear cause all their parents were killed.
To talk of interference in other states without mentioning Israels part is a joke.
And WE ALL MEDDLE IN IRAN.
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Magic – Wow the great appeaser lie gets rolled out again. If anyone questions the opinion of the neo-con hawks and their leashed foreign allies, the questioner would have rolled over and let Hitler walk all over them. Sorry it does not matter how often this pap argument is rolled out it remains as much crud as the first time.
Unlike some I don’t take my view of the world from a single news source, especially one owned by an Australian Oligarch. I find it eases my mind to think more for myself than to take all my political views from Fox News.
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I'm glad Obama is reaching out around the globe to India the "worlds largest democracy". American foreign policy often seems dominated by commercial interests far more then what we share in common in global human philosophy regarding what is right or just.
As Americans often criticized for self interested exploitive motives, I would be happy if this is a meeting with "0" commercial substance.. thats just about getting to know each others counties, sharing cross culturally. That could be a far grater achievement than signing a stack papers over trade etc.. Its just a good & needed example for us all to have and learn from and a better example to set.
And who knows.. a non topic such as the fact that Prime minister Mohan Sing is a vegetarian and will undoubtedly be offered a wide variety of vegetarian dishes in the White House could possibly do more then the Copenhagen Climate change meetings, to reduce green house gasses, if americans start to take seriously the vegetarian options as an alternative to the fatty unhealthy American diet.
When Bill Clinton was in the White House he tried to promote a "vegetarian day" and it was somehow canceled by the meat lobby. I do not think its insignificant that the first "State Dinner" will likely be at least 1/2 vegetarian. (the meat industry being responsible for 30+% of global emissions.
I'm happy to see President Obama has the will to set an example with this reach around the globe to the most diverse religious and culturally mixed country on earth.. hopefully its as much to learn as to offer!
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44 sorry WHOS LAND?
So if Russia started building in america. Then excluded the americans. then killed any that opposed being evicted. that would be OK. cause it is Their land.
PS so many said the ft hood guy was a coward and etc. because he couldn't just follow orders.
Today a bunch of Jewish soldiers made the BBC news.
They had refused orders to remove illegal under Isreali law settlements.
they would not "evict jews" but then You all tell me it is not a religious war that Israel is up to.
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ref #47
David Murrell wrote:
Magic – Wow the great appeaser lie gets rolled out again. If anyone questions the opinion of the neo-con hawks and their leashed foreign allies, the questioner would have rolled over and let Hitler walk all over them. Sorry it does not matter how often this pap argument is rolled out it remains as much crud as the first time.
Unlike some I don’t take my view of the world from a single news source, especially one owned by an Australian Oligarch. I find it eases my mind to think more for myself than to take all my political views from Fox News.
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What lie? Neville chamberlen did appease Hilter and than Ramsey McDonnel did the same to the Arab nations.
I get my news from several sources but in the U.S media Fox and ABC News are the only ones who have proven not to be in the tank for Obama
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Personally I think the two leaders(on topic for a mo) will have a little talk . realise they are not at war with each other, that both are intelligent leaders of pretty important nations. India is pretty important to the USA. They train all the brains to work in the USA where we cannot be bothered.
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Brahama (48),
Well said!
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Bon appetit. What's on the wine list.
To all who celebrate it: Happy Thanksgiving -- and may 2009 wrap up on a positive, serene, convivial and satisfying note, whatever your private or public observances...!
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According to this short bio of Manmohan Singh: http://www.hindustan.org/leader/index.html, he eats fish.
Excerpt: "Other than fish, he mostly prefers vegetarian food."
This is not exactly the same thing as a vegetarian.
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re. 48 brahma:
"And who knows.. a non topic such as the fact that Prime minister Mohan Sing is a vegetarian and will undoubtedly be offered a wide variety of vegetarian dishes in the White House could possibly do more then the Copenhagen Climate change meetings, to reduce green house gasses"
Oh, I don't know. I tend to emit greenhouse gasses after some vegetarian meals. Can't be good for the climate.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm glad Obama is reaching out around the globe to India the "worlds largest democracy".
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I am not sure populating the country at the speed of light to get the status of "world's largest democracy" is something to be proud of...The food shortage is one thing, but watering all those humans in india is proving to be very difficult...while the world's oldest democracy fights for oil, the world's largest democracy has already started the hidden war for water with Pakistan over Kashmir..
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Instead of meddling and building world powers or suppressing others with trade and war we should just let what happens,happens.US has lost large amounts of our morality because of business and world affairs.We should go back to doing what we morally want to do.Ban child and Slave products,have an infrastructure for taking care of our own needs and keep our military for defending our civilians only.Banning trade for moral reasons is fine but we promote trade with equally immoral country all for picking who gets what,when.Why do we Ban trade with Cuba,and Iran but promote trade with China,Saudi Arabia,and equally horrible countries that exploit people.I think we need to look at our foreign diplomacy with more equal expectations from nations.China won't ever be what we want it to evolve into it's a waste of time and resources.I don't think Israel needs us anymore or is our problem,living in the Middle east is something that is permanent and diplomacy with neighboring countries of the Middle East is their responsibility now.US diplomacy should be about the US and whatever country they are having diplomatic relations with not about meddling into the affairs of other nations except in cases of genocide.
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43. At 4:54pm on 24 Nov 2009, fluffytale wrote:
"Iran is the rightful dominant power in the region and they seek to restore their country's historical influence."
Yea and Russia is the light of the world. America the land of the free and the UK is ruled by Britannia.
Big deal."
You misquoted me fluffytale. I wrote that Iran's leaders see Iran as the rightful dominant power in the region, I did not endorse their view or state it as fact. If you're going to quote someone directly you shouldn't use clever editing to change them meaning of their words. That's a cheap debating trick I'd expect from a politician, not someone making a point on this blog.
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#9 "I'll take a cowboy over a community organizer any day"
And I'll take macadamia nuts over Acorn anytime.
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ref #58
sorry I put the U.S on the high moral ground especially against entities like the U.N. As far as the Middle East, if the U.S stop being ivolved all the restraints would be off Israel and they could respond with justfied force instead of the restrained actions they take.
They could have arrested terrorist supporter George Galloway and could blocked Richard Falk and his bogus investigation.
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sorry I put the U.S on the high moral ground especially against entities like the U.N.
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its not as if UN is run by alliens from Jupiter..its all usa and the west..And looks like the moral ground in usa is as flat as the country called Denmark.
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Nobody can convince the Pakistan to divert her attention from producing conspiracy theories to an active partner in the region. They have always defamed Afghanistan as a failed state, in which Pakistanis are very expert. Rather than spending the money to educate their own people and to promote their people's way of life (quoted from Ahmad Rashid http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8369914.stm), they are financing terrorism by any mean. I think this is an active strategy maintained by Pakistan since late 80's. So whatever Americans do Pakistan will never be on their side honestly, even though they have disguised to do so in the past. They have their own agenda of destruction. I think this has been much more obvious now then anytime before. Now America is relying on India to solve the terrorism problem, which is seems to be practice.
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The US envoy to the region, Richard Holbrooke, told a news conference yesterday
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The american regional envoy has finally come out of his hiding place, he was badly missed, or as people said, he went missing in action...during karzai's election hoopla, pakistani military action in south waziristan..When the going gets tough, the tough keeps quiet..
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Credit should go to the Clinton administration to first de-hyphenate India and Pakistan. The Indo-US relationship is a multi-faceted one with technology and trade as the prime focus unlike the AfPak-US relationship where terrorism and security are the operative words. George Bush, whatever his faults, recognized the special bond between USA and India and worked wholeheartedly to nurture the relationship.
It was clear from the press conference today that terrorism is only one of many issues that the US and India cooperate on where interests merge. India and USA have a lot to learn from each other this century and must work together to safeguard democracy.
So Mark and others,lets please talk of the many wonderful things that India and USA share and move the focus away from our troubles with AfPak.
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Nobody can convince the Pakistan to divert her attention from producing conspiracy theories to an active partner in the region. They have always defamed Afghanistan as a failed state, in which Pakistanis are very expert. Rather than spending the money to educate their own people and to promote their people's way of life (quoted from Ahmad Rashid http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8369914.stm), they are financing terrorism by any mean. I think this is an active strategy maintained by Pakistan since late 80's. So whatever Americans do Pakistan will never be on their side honestly, even though they have disguised to do so in the past. They have their own agenda of destruction. I think this has been much more obvious now then anytime before. Now America is relying on India to solve the terrorism problem, which is seems to be practice.
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Maoists in india are more bigger threat than the kashmiris..the so called muslim terrorism in india has been exagerated to the point of no return...as it is the trend of these years...I am sure america would not sit relaxed should chinese cheif of staff say that china is preparing a limited war with Pakistan...Because this is what indian army chief as said today..That india is preparing a limited war against Pakistan..Why would he choose to say this while his prime minister is visiting usa, is for you to decode and Obama to code..And its about time you put ahmed Rashid and his book aside..the ground realities have changed, I suggest you read a book by S.M Musrif titled "who killed karkare", who knows you will learn a few more words, like IB or the indian intelligence bureau, its brahminists, is located..the role of these brahminists in inciting the riots against muslimsMaharashtra where bombay and elsewhere, and the murder of brahmin anti terror cheif in bombay last november, etc etc etc..The book is more interested than that of rashid Ahmed..
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Scott0962 (#59) "If you're going to quote someone directly you shouldn't use clever editing to change them meaning of their words. That's a cheap debating trick I'd expect from a politician, not someone making a point on this blog."
Are you serious? Blog commentary is precisely where I would expect to see this nefarious practice most used.
There is a name for it: Dowdlerize, named for Maureen Dowd, a columnist.
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People ...whether Indians or Pakistanis are very much the same.So who should India talk to ? Isnt Pakistan a failed state...as a dictatorship and also as a democracy? Terrorism, Nuclear Proliferation, Aggression being the standard policy of that state.
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No, they are different. and like usa, india is used to talking to undemocratic governments all over the globe..The only time american presidents have visited pakistan, was when it was ruled by the generals..So it should stop pretending to give democratic governments a chance...And india before ussr fell apart enjoyed more than friendly relationsips with it..Its used to talking to terrorists, as both yassar arafat and his PLO enjoyed a special place in indian forgein policy..The biggest threat to india has always come from within, its mother son prime ministers were killed by the indians, one sikh and the other tamil..the mess in bombay is due to indian extremists hindu mafia..
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5. At 09:52am on 24 Nov 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
I'll take a cowboy over a community orginizer any day
I'm sure you would, since you'll make certain someone else will always be around to do the fighting for you. Chicken hawk.
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#7 squirrellist
China hasn't ridden out anything. Their stimulus has mostly been directed toward building more manufacturing plants and property speculation, along with risk taking in the stock markets, rather than increasing internal demand. They are dangerously close to having their own bubble burst. Their policy of "beggar thy neighbor" will almost certainly come back to bite them - and bite them hard.
Expecting the US to disregard its own interests is unrealistic. No nation is expected to sit back and humbly take whatever it is handed by the rest of the world. All nations play at kingmaker. But a US that engages in quiet diplomacy, rather than wars of choice, is certainly preferable as a neighbor and ally.
Also, my opinion has always been that if Blair had really been a friend to the US, he'd have refused to follow Dubya's lead on manufacturing a war in Iraq. Americans don't really trust the French, and most don't know what to make of the Germans. But when Britain says they have proof someone has WMDs, most Americans will take their word at face value.
When Britain talks, America listens. We may not always agree in the end, but we certainly pay close attention. After all, it's only for the really important cultural stuff, like explaining bangers and mash to the tourists, that we Septics need a translator. ;)
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re #35 MagicKirin
And we have a Godwin score for this conversation of 35. Not bad! Thanks for playing, try again!
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70. At 9:07pm on 24 Nov 2009, Gavrielle_LaPoste wrote:
"Also, my opinion has always been that if Blair had really been a friend to the US, he'd have refused to follow Dubya's lead on manufacturing a war in Iraq."
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Somewhat ironically, this is precisely what Prime Minister Jean Chretien did say and do.
And in doing so, he echoed the advice that "Mike" Pearson had given in respect of Vietnam a generation before at the LBJ ranch in Texas. In return LBJ picked him up physically and shook him like a disobedient rag doll. Criminal assault on a foreign head of government? Yes, indeed.
America doesn't always listen to wise advice from its closest and best friends, and sometimes fails to appreciate even who its best friends really are.
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ref #69
Most cowboys work most cos shakedown
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InterestedForeigner (#72), I wish you would be a little clearer about to whom who refer. When I Google "Mike Pearson" I get a Canadian football player.
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Oh, I see. Lester B. "Mike" Pearson I know. That's the way to write it.
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According to this account: http://www.kileymaas.com/people/politics/Lester-B.-Pearson.html, President Johnson merely took him by the lapels and shook him. Nothing in there about picking him up, which sound like anecdote inflation to me.
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#76, it still sounds like assault.
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"it still sounds like assault"
Perhaps to a prissy English schoolboy. Pearson was made of sterner stuff.
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31. At 4:24pm on 24 Nov 2009, dceilar wrote [Reply to #29]:
“I think the last country Persia attacked was Babylon a thousand odd years ago, as well as kicking the Romans out of Palestine.”
Not quite. The Persian rulers often attacked and looted Indian states until the British Raj put an end to that. The “Peacock Throne” of the Shahanshah was loot from the Mughal Empire [1739].
I would also label the interference in Iraq as “attacking” neighbours, even though the intent may be to make trouble for the US. Then, of course supplying money and weapons to anti-Israel organizations and regimes.
Iranians do not like Arabs [and that is usually reciprocated]. The Iranian interest is not out of love for Palestinians but out of love for power and prestige in the "neighborhood." Iran wants to reassert its historic hegemony, by whatever means needed. It is simply playing the same sordid political game that all imperialists play [including Neocons like GWB].
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Mark, Pakistan wouldn't even sign that agreement for the money, because they are worried that if they sign that agreement, they will lose their nuclear arsenal. My question is: who is in charge in Pakistan? Is it the govt. or is it the terrorists? Is Pakistan a country that is stable?
Iran should not have nuclear weapons. Anyone in their right mind knows this, due to repeated threats and instability. It would only lead to disaster. The article in Newsweek about the kidnapped reporter in Iran was really interesting. This article was written straight from the source. It gives much insight on Iran and how the Iranian Guard thinks that Americans are spies and enemies of Iran. Ha! The Iranian Guard could not be further from the truth. The USA may not want Iran to have nuclear weapons, but neither does France, England and other countries. With China and Russia, I cannot tell what they think about Iran- they are purposefully vague. But I do not think that China or Russia wants a nuclear Iran or nuclear war in the Middle East. Why would they? That's where their oil supply is.
As for India's ties with the USA, I am sure China is closely watching, as China and India are close competitors. They also have the most people in the world- millions and millions more than any other countries. I am sure that India is glad to have friends around the world, so that things are not one-sided. The USA is glad to have a friend close by the Middle East, so that India can help us fight the terrorists. The USA and India are friends, united against the terrorists. After the terrorists, the focus will be environmental. If the USA, India and China began to cut their wastes/ toxicity leading into the environment, imagine how much things really could change. The best chance of fighting global warming/climate change/ect. is with the USA, India and China all fighting it together. Perhaps, one day, it could happen.
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Illinoisan, Ask not who is incharge of Pakistan, ask who is incharge of usa, is it CIA, or the few rich guys, or the lobbiests for this or that... while you focus on terrorists elsewhere 24/7, any tom,dick or harry with a gun can go on a shooting spree anywhere in usa..
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78. Gary.
You should see the photograph of the two of them standing side-by-side. Johnson was a big man. Pearson was not. The characterization of Johnson that sticks is the one in "The Right Stuff" where he rages in the Vice-Presidential limousine because Annie Glenn won't let him into the house.
Pearson was a career diplomat, and a pretty good one. He epitomized unflappable decency. But he was never well enough appreciated in his own country to win a majority.
Yes, underneath, he really was "made of sterner stuff".
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Iranians do not like Arabs [and that is usually reciprocated]. The Iranian interest is not out of love for Palestinians but out of love for power and prestige in the "neighborhood." Iran wants to reassert its historic hegemony, by whatever means needed. It is simply playing the same sordid political game that all imperialists play [including Neocons like GWB].
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And do you really think, that AmBrit's support for israel is based on some love story between these three? The notion of, enemy's enemy's is your best friend is not just limited to AmBrits policy makers minds, iranians can also have the same ideas. You are supporting israel, they are supporting palestinians..the difference is they dont demonize you for supporting israel,but AmBrits do that to both iran and palestinians..
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80. At 11:25pm on 24 Nov 2009, Illinoisan wrote:
But it's OK for Israel to have them? "Repeated threats" carry less weight with me than a track record of actual attacks on neighbours and others (USA and Israel and their Poodle)
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#79 McJakome
Well I didn't know about persia attacking India in the eighteenth century. But I will take you to task on Iran supporting Arabs as a way to increase its hegemony in the region. An example is the relationship between the UK and France where there is a mutual dislike of the other probably based on having more in common. Neither country would want the other invaded or taken over by a foreign power. This has more to do with their own national security. I suppose Iran is not allowed to defend itself while Israel can.
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At 8:08pm on 24 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
"The biggest threat to india has always come from within, its mother son prime ministers were killed by the indians, one sikh and the other tamil..the mess in bombay is due to indian extremists hindu mafia.."
"And its about time you put ahmed Rashid and his book aside..the ground realities have changed, I suggest you read a book by S.M Musrif titled "who killed karkare", who knows you will learn a few more words, like IB or the indian intelligence bureau, its brahminists, is located..the role of these brahminists in inciting the riots against muslims Maharashtra where bombay and elsewhere, and the murder of brahmin anti terror cheif in bombay last november, etc etc etc.."
^^^
Seems like you have some vitriol to pour out against Brahmins and India! Reminds one of the same venom that Arabs spew against Jews and Israel.
Pray tell me you're not serious about your so called 'theories'! I would be much more sanguine about the future if you only told you are joking...
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I hear a little bit of paranoia and a lot of wishful thinking on this forum.
True - the first Obama visiter wasn't from Europe - PM Aso from Japan
The first Obama state dinner wasn't for a European - PM Manmohan Singh of India.
Of course, let's all forget the first overseas trip - to PM Brown of the UK.
Also, the first George W Bush state dinner wasn't for a European either - President Fox of Mexico.
The next 3: leaders from Poland, the Philipines, and Kenya.
George W Bush first international trip - to President Fox of Mexico, again.
Not sure why people keep attempting to read "change" into business as usual in Washington.
Despite the reputation, the US isn't a Euro-centric colonial power - and hasn't been for a long time.
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Seems like you have some vitriol to pour out against Brahmins and India! Reminds one of the same venom that Arabs spew against Jews and Israel.
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I was born with a disposition to sympathize with the weak, You can believe in the religous mytholgoy of hindus or the jews, that some people are born in higher caste or as chosen people of G-d, to me, a hindu is a hindu is a hindu, and a jew is a jew is a jew, common ancestor of hindus or jews or any other tom, dick or harry person, is a monkey.No one was born out of head of a god, or no one was was chosen by G-d, or given estate by Him.
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President Obama just pardoned the Thanksgiving Turkey from North Carolina named Courage. Appropriate name don't ya think.
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Just once I'd like to hear a president say "cook that sucker up"!
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60
"And I'll take macadamia nuts over Acorn anytime."
and you'll be a fat cat when you've eaten enough.
highest fat content.
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Obama's winning Nobel for international peace initiatives as aftershocks and one among them is this decision to honor Indian PM on his first ever state dinner.
Consequently it is a co-incidental opportunity to pacify Indian PM following his recent damaging statement on Kashmir issue while he was in China.
India being largest democracy and US being oldest democracy with first ever President from non European race might have made him to think unconventionally. More results in coming days would level his winning of Nobel prize.
As Indian PM said, India's growth is based on values.. Human values.. not the way Communist China has grown. India is important for US more than ever.
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As Indian PM said, India's growth is based on values.. Human values.. not the way Communist China has grown.
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Which growth the population or the economical growth? and which human values? the brahminists or sikh values? or italian ones? And Indian PM should remember the growth of india as in economy is due to opening of its markets in 90s to the west...I say this, because this prime minister was the finace minister who opened indian to the rest of the world...And the wealth of the country is in the hands of just a few 10 or 15 percent of its people...Majority of indians still live quite a backward life..
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# 72. At 9:34pm on 24 Nov 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
America doesn't always listen to wise advice from its closest and best friends, and sometimes fails to appreciate even who its best friends really are.
Very true, but then we are all guilty of that from time to time. Nations are no different than people, because they are led by men and women who are just as fallible as the rest of their species. And, unfortunately, wisdom cannot be passed down genetically from generation to generation. The nation with a history of a thousand years can be just as foolish and unwise as the one of a century.
# 73. At 9:57pm on 24 Nov 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
Most cowboys work most cos shakedown
How to translate Magic-speak: I take this to mean: Bush and company got elected twice because they were good at extorting money. Well, okay! At least we can agree on something as concerns the neo-cons.
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Re the infamous gatecrashers, there's only one word that truly describes these parasites - pathetic.
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