'Senseless tragedy'?
As the 24-hour news channels reported the horror unfolding in Texas, they struggled with a single question.
Some were circumspect in their speculation; others were less so. And the crux was this: who was responsible?
Was this the work of a lone madman? Or of a terrorist? Or of several terrorists?
I am sure the question was asked in the White House and that it was foremost in most viewers' minds.
It was certainly foremost in mine - for professional reasons. Random shootings are not my province, whereas terrorism and events that touch the soul of a nation for months to come are.
The truth is of course cloudy. The alleged murderer was clearly a Muslim, but there is very little to suggest that he adhered to a hard-line interpretation of his religion or that he had political or religious motives.
He may or may not have posted something on the internet defending suicide bombers. But he also appears to have been traumatised by the idea of being sent to a combat zone.
Still, people will speculate - as I am doing. Life may become more uncomfortable for his innocent co-religionists, a regrettable consequence of any such attack.
We search for certainty and for answers. Some will go down blind alleys: reports of his "religious attire", for example, may turn out to be a red herring. There will be a demand for answers about how he got private handguns onto a military base. In a state where people love their guns and their right to carry them, it may be a fairly pointless inquiry. In any case, it can't be hard for a solider to get his hands on a gun.
A lot of us wondered how he managed to shoot forty or so people with two guns. I imagine the truth may be that although his victims were soldiers, few of them were armed.
But for some, nothing less than a conspiracy will do as an explanation. On the website of a respected newspaper, I see one poster has blamed Barack Obama, whom he calls "that Marxist thug". It's not that it's hard to follow the logic; it's that there isn't any.
Still, searching for patterns and for answers is part of what it is to be human. I loathe cliche, but perhaps, for once, this is a "senseless tragedy", devoid of deeper meaning.
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Senseless, surely. Likewise a tragedy. But I would say that in any rampage multiple killing, there is always a deeper meaning. Such acts cannot be purely random, which could be committed by anyone, but must come from some hostility within the perpetrator which becomes manifest in violent action, in my opinion. I expect we will be reading a lot more about his background and what signs of possible violence were overlooked or discounted.
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yep it is a senseless tragedy.
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With comments coming from his family of his fear of being deployed, my suspicion is that this may have played a bigger part than any religious intention. The man obviously had a breakdown and it appears he translated his cowardice into "martyrdom". I am also quite glad that it happened to be a woman who stopped him.
Having said that, many US Muslims are serving in the military bravely, and they understand this means upholding and defending the Constitution, which guarantees their religious freedom.
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Mark wrote:
"But for some, nothing less than a conspiracy will do as an explanation. On the website of a respected newspaper, I see one poster has blamed Barack Obama, whom he calls "that Marxist thug". It's not that it's hard to follow the logic; it's that there isn't any."
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As the saying goes: "You just can't argue with that kind of logic."
But we've certainly seen it here recently, too. See "When Hope is all That's Left" string, postings 239 et seq.
It is always variations of the same phraseology "marxist thug", "socialist thug", "chicago thug", like a mantra chanted the way the sheep are taught to chant "four legs good, two legs bad."
Where is it coming from?
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There is camera footage of him shopping in a convenience store on the base a few hours before he shot the unarmed soldiers, dressed in white robes and a prayer hat. Make of that what you will.
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Sadly, this does appear to be a senseless act of violence.
The man yelled "Allah Akbar!", killed 13 people and wounded many more.
The fact that he had guns on him is not surprising given the nature of his line of work, but the problem was that his guns were loaded.
From what I understand, only MPs are allowed to have loaded guns outside the firing range at Ft. Hood.
Getting back to the man responsible, yes, this man is Muslim, but he is an American citizen, born and raised in West Virginia I believe; his parents were immigrants from Palestine.
He joined the armed forces right out of high school and the army paid for his college education to become a psychiatrist for returning and injured vets, so he routinely heard battlefield stories which horrified him enough that he feared deployment.
Who knows if this tragedy was carried out by a man driven insane by his experiences and fears or a man driven to commit multiple acts of murder and treason by religious fanaticism. Regardless, thankfully the man is still alive so that he can be prosecuted and sentenced to the full extent of the law, and y'all know what that means in Texas.
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The truth is of course cloudy. The alleged murderer was clearly a Muslim, but there is very little to suggest that he adhered to a hard-line interpretation of his religion or that he had political or religious motives.
Mark, I live in Texas. This murderer did not kill everyone, he left eye witnesses. Please don't call him an alleged murderer. And shouting "God is Great" in Arabic while shooting his fellow soldiers in the back could not be interpreted as a religious motive?
This man killed his fellow comrades in arms. In my eyes, he is beyond redemption and lower than pond scum. The U.S. used to execute military personnel by firing squad, who by trial was found guilty of treason or murder. The traitor deserves no less.
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The tragedy here is that someone in the military allowed a psychologist who was apparently not performing well at Walter Reed Medical Center and who had made statements against American foreign policy in the Mideast to be transferred to Ft Hood, a place where soldiers embark for the Mideast. The fact that the Major was a Muslim and apparently had told someone that the earlier killing of a soldier in Alabama at an Army Recruiting Station was justified makes the Army's decision to keep him on regular duty, a travesty. Also it's been said his actions were reported by colleagues at Walter Reed up the chain of command and nothing was done. How many red flags does the Army need to have waved before they safeguard our troops?
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Another day, another massacre, another misunderstander of the religion-of-peace.... Of course religion is irrelevant, it could just as easily have been a Methodist, Buddhist or Hamish soldier, they blow themselves up all the time, too. Keep sticking your head in the sand, BBC.
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This is not a "senseless tragedy" by any means, Mr Mardell, although your feelings, i am sure, are shared by many.
Even the minimal amount of data officially available explains the motive quite clearly.
Of course, the shooter went berserk, and in that exact way, going berserk means literally losing one's sense. So, strictly speaking, you are correct about the "senselessness."
As for the emotional strain he was under, and the stress, that is by no means open to interpretation. He was of Jordanian ancestry, meaning with ties to the Middle East that the US has become embroiled in, most bloodily. His daily routine dealt with some of the worst disclosures arising out the American campaign in iraq -- where he was now, against his most vehement protests, being dispatched.
When the man got his license, in 2001, it was hardly possible to imagine American soldiers killing Muslims and waging war against Arabs. if anything, when this psychiatrist planned out his career in the US military, the "likeliest" enemy was Russians.
The attacks of 11 September changed all that.
The broader problem here is that far too many Americans have become inured to brutality. Not all Americans, but far too many. Exploding in rage at bystanders has almost become an "understandable" over-reaction.
in other words, the threshold inhibiting extreme acts of violence has been lost somewhere. A great deal of effort needs to be applied now to bringing it back -- to really driving home to people that attacks on another person are just not to be conceived of.
A fascinating statistic appeared in one of California's leading newspapers yesterday (the SF Chronicle): as many as 20% of all murders in this state are committed by 11 to 17 year old assailants.
That is a staggering, shocking number. Please investigate?
Around Fresno, in a largely agricultural region, a 14 year old boy stands accused of sodomizing and then drowning a four year old neighbour. He killed the tot because the victim threatened to tell his mother.
Since you have been living here, as you can see, the stream of news reports about acts of extreme violence, many targeting very young children, flows unabated...
Yes, a terrible tragedy has unfolded at Ft. Hood. Perhaps it might have been avoided if the man had simply been discharged and the reality of his extreme distress had sunk in to whoever was in charge of his career.
But in fact, as with Cho at Virginia Tech, the message that needs to get through is: take your own life if you must -- please do not attack others. Their families have enough problems already.
in fact, we all do. it is extremely selfish -- narcissistic -- to engage in this kind of atrocity. Unforgivable. inexcusable. Savage.
if he had made any kind of coherent threats, those aware of them also need to be held to account. Perhaps he ought simply have been arrested, detained or committed to a psychiatric institution, instead of allowed to go on until he finally exploded and ruined several dozen lives!
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You are absolutely correct GH1618. This is not an impromptu act of violence committed by a so-called "looney". Let's examine the evidence we have so far. The accused, Major Hasan, is a devout Muslim who has verbally expressed anger towards U.S. involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq. Also, he expressed sympathy with the Muslim terrorist who, just a few months ago, shot and killed two soldiers at an army recruiting office in Little Rock, Arkansas. Furthermore, he had revealed to co-workers that he approved the acts of suicide bombers, coupled with making the statement that, "Muslims need to stand up to the aggressor [the United States]". Before retiring, I worked for many years as a federal agent in the U.S. and we commonly referred to characters like Hasan as "sleepers". This means that they are potentiol terrorists who live seemingly normal lives for a period of time in a certain community and at the "right moment" will launch an attack. Folks--let's not allow the henious governance of political correctness make cowards of us all. Let's call this situation for what it truly is--an act of Muslim terrorism!
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yep it is a senseless tragedy.
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forgotten the good old term called the blow back effect? Such shootings occur every year or two in universities and schools in usa.Its part of american culture.
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''When the man got his license, in 2001, it was hardly possible to imagine American soldiers killing Muslims and waging war against Arabs. ''
How can you possibly believe that?
This man joined the US military after the first Gulf war, which had send American soldiers killing Muslims and waging war against Arabs.
He knew what he was joining, he knew about American entanglements in the Middle East. He joined anyway.
This has nothing to do with a 'threshold inhibiting extreme acts of violence has been lost' in America. That is pyschobabble nonsense. This is quite clearly about Islam.
The man praised Muslim suicide bombers, called the US aggressors against Islam and then shot American soldiers while crying out 'Allahu Akbar' How much more evidence do we need?!
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The right wing of US politics has spewed hate and discontent at every possible occasion. The media makes this minority of opinion seem much bigger and enpowers them with pandering coverage. The constant anger and uncivil behaviors are rewarded by the press. What can been seen as a single event can also be an act encouraged by those who foster a facist society in the US. The right wing is about eliminating freedom not promoting it. The US Taliban...think like them or be attacked. The ignorant are always used as fodder by the elite and do their dirty work. The right wing foot soldier is no different than the yelling Chinese communist who sees every mention of human rights abuse as an attack on the State. Defenders of the Faith are never rationale nor interested in facts.
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It might be several days before we get more solid answer why this tragedy happened; not something that can be served on 24-hour news networks with mulitple anylists depecting a person they never met. We shall wait and see.
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8 bien view but not bien mind.
Great so the texas hanging courts can deal with him.
Eye for an eye or forgiveness?
try using the opportunity to find out WHY he did it.
put him in jail.
but don't think there is any justification for saying that another murder will help the situation.
That aggressive attitude of america has been at the root of this short centuries war footing.
Indeed if the "good" people of Texas had prevented that grinning fool GW from taking power when they could have because they recognised there were a few TOO many deaths in Texas . Then Maybe right now we would not be in the middle of years of racially stressed and charged times.
You guys always talk of nipping insurgency and war in the bud by pre-emptive strikes but did nothing but aid GW to get to the position he took.
The fascination and glee that seems to be yours that he is in texas is as sick as what he did.
I know many will disagree and shout pinko appeaser but then that's the norm.
That same murderous attitude of yours is used by others to justify to themselves the murder of American soldiers.
Reject Murder in it's entirety or expect nothing.
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Another day, another massacre, another misunderstander of the religion-of-peace.... Of course religion is irrelevant, it could just as easily have been a Methodist, Buddhist or Hamish soldier, they blow themselves up all the time, too. Keep sticking your head in the sand, BBC.
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as oppose to the americans, who blow other people up..and do not even allow their relatives and country fellows a chance to mourn the deads..The threat to america is from inside america, not in afghanistan or pakistan where its busy killing pathans..
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Disappointing but not unexpected comments from Mark Mardell. Offering us a whitewash of murderous events when there is a great deal of evidence stacking up in favour of an attack driven by the man's religious convictions.
It certainly isn't senseless...a very devout Muslim, with a great dislike of US foreign policy who didn't want to fight Muslims....but quite happy to kill people...so murder wasn't such a problem.
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No, this is not about Islam. It is a rampage killing, and, like others, appears to be the act of someone who has harbored hostility for one reason or another, which ultimately erupted in violence. Every rampage killer has his issue; if there is an Islamic aspect to the particular case, it applies only to the individual case. To focus on the Islamic connection is not only to cast suspicion on the vast numbers of peaceful Moslems, but also to overlook the causes of rampage killings generally.
Here is a link to an article about a study of rampage killers: The New York Times
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There are many Muslims in the U. S. Army: http://www.riseofislam.com/islam_in_america_04.html
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One article made reference to research at a military medical centre in Washington which had been "a cause for concern". Are there any details as to what this research involved?
From the facts available to me, I don't think there is much deeper meaning. A man become completely disassociated from his immediate surroundings and lost his grip on reality and the need for self-control.
People may speculate the cause of his disassociation - and religious persecution/ prejudices may have had something to do with that. But equally, I can't imagine it being easy treating soldiers who have developed psychiatric conditions in a war-zone.
His cry of 'Allahu akbar' may have been an expression of extremism (a conclusion that many will jump to - and may even be true), or a sincere faith may have been the only thing he attributed to himself after he had detached himself from everything else.
I guess we'll see what he says when he's questioned.
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Disappointing but not unexpected comments from Mark Mardell. Offering us a whitewash of murderous events when there is a great deal of evidence stacking up in favour of an attack driven by the man's religious convictions.
It certainly isn't senseless...a very devout Muslim, with a great dislike of US foreign policy who didn't want to fight Muslims....but quite happy to kill people...so murder wasn't such a problem.
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9 yrs later and people are still able to bring in "muslim" or " devout muslim" as an explaination.There are millions of devout muslims who do not attack usa, or anyother country, and there are millions of devout americans who support and attack muslim countries. Do some maths, and you will see that devout americans have killed more muslims, both devout and not devout, than devouts muslims. Those famous arab hijackers of 9/11 werent even dvout muslims..you logic is senseless.
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There are many Muslims in the U. S. Army:
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And perhaps usa should do what it did to the japanise, during ww2. Why should america need muslims in usa, if it has, it should not send them to combat zone..its stupidity to test them like this..Assign them the desk work..and buy militaries of other countries..like it has bought pakistani military.
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rawhideron (#15), don't look to me for endorsement of your hypothesis. I don't believe that the shooter was a "sleeper" who entered the Army for the purpose of someday committing such an act. I believe he fits into the category of other rampage killers, and the Islamic connection merely happens to be his hot button.
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His cry of 'Allahu akbar'
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Ever seen cricket match of bangladesh or pakistan or football matches in middle east? people say this...and ever seen taliban fighting battle with either northern alliance or pakistani army? Both sides say this, and sometimes you cannot even make out if its the good side shouting Allah Akbar or the bad side. The american soldiers use the four letter word that starts with an f, their culture, the muslims use this Allah akbar, their culture.
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Why is it that yet again some people blame the US for the agression and hatred displayed my certain Muslims and groups/sects that they belong to. Yes the US fought against Iraq in the first Gulf war but that was on the side of Muslim Arab Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. They also fought for Muslims against the serbs in Bosnia and Kosova and tried to help in Somalia and Lebanon. It seems that this rage against the killings of Muslims is very selective - if you are a Muslim and are blown apart in a Mosque by afellow Muslim then that is ok but get killed by Americans/Westerners then you need to be revenaged.
Come on get real, the Islamic world have been fighting and killing each other since the time of the Prophet and have also attacked and taken over lands where other faiths were there first. If this type of rage was justified then I could be forgiven for randomly shooting people to protest over the killings of Christians in Eygpt etc etc
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Why is it that yet again some people blame the US for the agression and hatred displayed my certain Muslims and groups/sects that they belong to. Yes the US fought against Iraq in the first Gulf war but that was on the side of Muslim Arab Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. They also fought for Muslims against the serbs in Bosnia and Kosova and tried to help in Somalia and Lebanon. It seems that this rage against the killings of Muslims is very selective - if you are a Muslim and are blown apart in a Mosque by afellow Muslim then that is ok but get killed by Americans/Westerners then you need to be revenaged.
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To you it should seem that american help to muslims is very selective..they didnt safe bosnians because the poor bosnians were being killed, they were killing as well, keeping the conflict going on in europe..usa came and it bombed everywhere in serbia, and divided the country...its just a matter of time, that those three would start to fight again, because neither serbs nor bosnians like these artifcial boundries that have been created..here is a country which is fighting real wars based on sheer paranoia and there are people who are being killed because of this paranoia..But if you still insist that muslim rage is selective, then you have a luxurious problem.
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Actually, you have several postings on this blog today of the same hateful, murderous mentality.
It speaks volumes.
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My first thoughts about this were that this man was an officer, as well as, a trained psychologist who happened to be Muslim. By outward appearances this man could be trusted to serve in the US military. Right or wrong, how many soldiers will now look with suspicion upon their Muslim brothers wearing the same uniform?
The idea he was traumatized by other soldiers combat experience and was so agitated at the thought of being deployed, in a non-combat role, that he went on a shooting spree is simply not credible.
As an earlier poster commented, soldiers are not armed, except at the firing range, these men and women were as defenseless as anyone would be in a shopping mall. Actually, folks in Texas are probably more capable of defending themselves in a shopping mall than those troops were at FT. Hood.
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another example of why the US should seek alternative fuels and disengage from the Middle East. Remember it is US oil interest that keep the US there. Money = Influence = Corrupt Congress. People commit such acts every day somewhere in the world...it is the world we live in. When business runs the world this is what you get, people pitted against people so things can be sold and profit made.
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From the investigativeproject.org: A picture of Nidal Malik Hasan is emerging from the slaughter he carried out Thursday during a ceremony at a Fort Hood readiness center, leaving 13 people dead and another 30 wounded.
Born in Virginia, sent to medical school by the U.S. Army, the psychiatrist was chastised for proselytizing to his patients about Islam. Asked his nationality, he didn't identify himself as an American but as a Palestinian. He appeared pleased by the shooting death of a Little Rock Army recruiter in June and reportedly was heard saying "maybe people should strap bombs on themselves and go to Times Square."
Moments before he opened fire on his unarmed victims, he shouted "Allahu Akhbar."
With each new disclosure, why don't the media outlets and organized Islamist groups stop trying to deflect attention away from Hasan's religious motivation! Let's face the threta coming from radical Islamists & Palestinians!
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My first thoughts about this were that this man was an officer, as well as, a trained psychologist who happened to be Muslim. By outward appearances this man could be trusted to serve in the US military. Right or wrong, how many soldiers will now look with suspicion upon their Muslim brothers wearing the same uniform?
The idea he was traumatized by other soldiers combat experience and was so agitated at the thought of being deployed, in a non-combat role, that he went on a shooting spree is simply not credible
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The idea that only american soldiers get traumatized during and after war is simply not credible..Einstein, soldiers are put through physical and psychological training, the government use a lot of money on them..and then they are giving some sort of debriefing after the combat..Again the incompetent army of usa failed to notice that this guy was unstable..why they overlooked his behavour is something you should focus on...instead of puting the blame on the actions of that person.Any tom dick and harry commander can see such obiovious signs which this guy was showing by his words..His commanding officer and all those who knew about his obvious anti american military acttivies, should be court martialed..or atleast be sent to barracks to be put before an inquiry commisson..To be in the american army and to support its enemies is an act of treason..Those who allowed him to do that have to be held accountable.
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16. At 7:05pm on 06 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
forgotten the good old term called the blow back effect? Such shootings occur every year or two in universities and schools in usa.Its part of american culture.
If it were part of our culture we wouldn't be surprised by it.
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Colonel
You once told me that you always support Muslims whther they are in the right or the wrong - so I know where your comments on these murders will be placed. as to this:-
"To you it should seem that american help to muslims is very selective..they didnt safe bosnians because the poor bosnians were being killed, they were killing as well, keeping the conflict going on in europe..usa came and it bombed everywhere in serbia, and divided the country...its just a matter of time, that those three would start to fight again, because neither serbs nor bosnians like these artifcial boundries that have been created..here is a country which is fighting real wars based on sheer paranoia and there are people who are being killed because of this paranoia..But if you still insist that muslim rage is selective, then you have a luxurious problem."
If the west donothing to help Muslims - certain Muslims jump and rage at the West. If they join one Muslim side against another as in Afghanistan - certain Muslims jump and rage at the West. If they take the side of Muslims aginst non-Muslims such as in Serbia - certain Muslims jump and rage at the West. I have noticed though that it is the same Muslims doing the jumping and raging whatever the circumstances. These people are also totally silent if Muslims such as those in the Western Sahara are ethnically cleansed from their own country by fellow Muslims.
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If it were part of our culture we wouldn't be surprised by it.
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And the fact is you should not be..such things happen in usa..students upset because they are bullied, go on shooting spree in usa..an unsatisfied employee in usa, go on a shooting spree...this is your culture..even non american citizens are not surprised at this anymore, why should americans be surprised is something I want to know.
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"With each new disclosure, why don't the media outlets and organized Islamist groups stop trying to deflect attention away from Hasan's religious motivation! Let's face the threta coming from radical Islamists & Palestinians!"
The reason for this is that certain groups like to have one message for us stupid Westerners who believe anything we are told and another for those supporters in the Muslims world. On the one hand it is Islamophobia and on the other it is the acts of heros fighting for the domination of the Caliphate over the infidels.
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"Details are still unclear, but the Army is investigating. It is important we let that work complete before we speculate about the circumstances leading to this senseless violence." Adm. Mike Mullen, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Army.mil news item
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Regardless of whether this man carried out his crime deliberately, because of a nervous breakdown, or because he was taunted by fellow soldiers the fact is that he is a criminal that does not deserve excuses or pity for his crime.
These are very violent times and events like this are becoming so common that many of us don't even pay attention to the news when they occur. We just had a somewhat similar incident in Orlando, Florida, a few minutes ago when a disgruntled gunman killed at least one person and injured several others, allegedly, because he was fired from his work a couple of years ago and wanted to get even for his demise.
These sick people and fanatics will continue their killing sprees as long as they have access to weapons. The military must do a better job at screening recruits/volunteers and we should take a long hard look at logic of making semi-automatic weapons available to every nut that wants to purchase one.
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Mark, come on! You have been more superficial than this!
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Anyway this incidence has given obama a great chance to deploy troops in afghanistan..he is a politician and he will use this opportunity...
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You once told me that you always support Muslims whther they are in the right or the wrong - so I know where your comments on these murders will be placed. as to this:-
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I dont even pretend to go against nature..if the west can support their soldiers for fighting a wrong war, support their leaders when they mess up other countries..then they should also know that muslims are first humans and then muslims...and its a human nature to support your own..thats why all americans got united behind bush...and then they got united behind the idea that they would support their soldiers no matter how wrong the cause of war it was..Have some mercy on muslims and use the same formula which you use on your own people..or you think that muslims somehow are superhumans and that they will go against the nature?
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I can only wish good luck to those who think it is no more than sense less tragedy. To me it sounds nothing less than terrorist act. When will people understand that for a fellow muslim islam is everything, even more than himself, his mother and family. May be non-muslims dont understand this since they were not brought up like that.
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35 jec
"With each new disclosure, why don't the media outlets and organized Islamist groups stop trying to deflect attention away from Hasan's religious motivation! Let's face the threta coming from radical Islamists & Palestinians!"
It is not the medias job to stir up this highly charged atmosphere any more. It would be criminally irresponsible.
While it is entirely possible that this man was a "sleeper" agent waiting to strike, it is equally possible that he was a highly-strung, highly-religious person who flipped out and had access to weapons.
Both are possible and until he is questionned it is nothing mre than mindless speculation to assume his views.
If, as has been suggested, he had made anti-US comments and spoken in favour of suicide bombers to colleagues then perhaps those colleagues should have spotted that he wasn't right for the army (or is recruitment that bad?).
If he had strenuously requested not to be sent to Iraq or Afghanistan for religious reasons, then perhaps that should have been recognised - maybe he should have been discharged.
Most important now is to stem the anti-Islamic rhetoric that is already sliming forth and realise that if he was a sleeper terrorist, it does not mean the other millions of muslims in the US are. How do you think the other muslim soldiers in the US army are feeling now, knowing that people are thinking "is he one too?".
However I do believe that if he was a "deep cover sleeper" he could have been a bit more effective. It was hardly the product of 8 years sinister planning.
It seems more like the military equivalent of "going postal" and is more a comment on a sociaty where random acts of violence have become a more frequent means of expressing ones dissatisfaction.
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We'll see what the FBI has to say about this after they complete their investigation, but I'm thinking this guy was mentally unstable. After all, if he's dedicated to defending Muslims against foreign aggression, you'd think he'd have made better use of his position and rank in the military to inflict more damage. Why not use explosives? If he could get pistols onto the base, then it seems likely to me that he could have brought in other, more effective weapons (grenades come to mind). I'm guessing al Qaeda and their ilk will see this as a victory, yes, but also a missed opportunity. There are 50,000 soldiers and 300,000 support personnel at Ft. Hood. He killed 13 and injured 40 of them. As far as kills go, the Virginia Tech gunman was far more successful. This guy struck a blow, for sure, but it seems to me that he could have attacked a target (such as some sort of assembly or church service) that would have racked up many, many more kills. I believe his adoption of Islamic extremism was a matter of convenience.
Don't blame Muslims. They suffer disproportionately from this kind of violence. We're all in this together.
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President Obama asks that people "not jump to conclusions."
However, the NY Times reports the shooter listed "no religious preference" on his personnel record: obviously, a lie. A striking lie.
it emerges that he is Palestinian, from the areas around Jerusalem; that he alternated military gear with traditional robes & religious raiment appropriate to the religion he pretended not to prefer; that he attended mosque prayers on a daily basis for a period of time, and sought to find a wife who would be strictly observant, as he was evidently.
No one noticed he attended a mosque daily? That is more than being observant: that is a degree of commitment to a faith appropriate for someone contemplating actual religious orders, not a military career.
A believer may pray frequently in private with no one ever noticing: daily attendance at a house of worship, while it need not be a sign of fanaticism, does indicate an unusually high degree of preoccupation with actual rigid practice, with unquestioning conformity to the leadership of ordained hierarchies.
And jihadist websites are singing his praises to the heavens.
Hard not to jump to conclusions... even if the President would wish it otherwise.
Of course no one wants a backlash or any kind of collective stereotyping of Muslims. But it is legitimate to ask Muslims to please take a much harder, less perfunctory look at the outlines & teachings of their belief system.
We can for instance commend the President of Somalia for his entirely justified outrage at the stoning of adulterers, and the self-serving cloth merchants promoting strict adherence to the mediaeval custom of covering women head to toe. We need more Muslim leaders following his example.
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39. At 8:21pm on 06 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
why should americans be surprised is something I want to know.
For someone who keeps insisting he doesn't want or need to know anything about American culture, you certainly make a lot of pronouncements about that culture - and ask a lot of questions.
But honestly, this is an internal matter. Not something you need to worry about. Obama is not going to use this as an excuse to send more troops to Afghanistan. No one is going to round up Muslims and stick them in camps. Move on, sweetie, there's nothing here for you. Unless, of course, you are simply gloating.
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I can only wish good luck to those who think it is no more than sense less tragedy. To me it sounds nothing less than terrorist act. When will people understand that for a fellow muslim islam is everything, even more than himself, his mother and family. May be non-muslims dont understand this since they were not brought up like that.
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As if what america did to iraq, is doing to afghanistan and pakistan is very sensible tragedy...The drones which kill more civilians than the those nick named as terrorists, are sensible tragedies? I suggest you take a short trip to afghanistan or to palestine or to south wazitstan or to the refugee camps in Dera ismail khan in pakistan, and you will see that not everything is about islam..Muslims were not brought up to understand why non muslims are so ready to kill in the name of democracy and yet in past 8 yrs millions of muslims are killed in its name..
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For someone who keeps insisting he doesn't want or need to know anything about American culture, you certainly make a lot of pronouncements about that culture - and ask a lot of questions.
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It was a knee jerk question, but you are correct that i really dont want to know anything about american culture..I was hoping that you being american, would have forgotten about that, and I just squeezed this question.. because people have swtiched on their "because of islam he did it" mode..and since islam is not american culture so I generously tried to make you focus on your own culture..The guy who killed is an american, and in america when people are upset about things, they go on a shooting spree..ergo he acted according to his cultural values.Nothing more and nothing less.
As far as obama is concerned, he will and you will see it..I guarantee you this..
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There are 13 dead at Ft. Hood, it is a tragedy.
Yet you have a ranting nut-case here on this blog today, who looks upon it not as a time for introspection or grief, or sadness, but rather as just another opportunity to spew the same rabid anti-American hatred. And the BBC is giving him a platform to do it.
There is you problem, right out in the open, and visible before your eyes.
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A believer may pray frequently in private with no one ever noticing: daily attendance at a house of worship, while it need not be a sign of fanaticism, does indicate an unusually high degree of preoccupation with actual rigid practice, with unquestioning conformity to the leadership of ordained hierarchies.
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Muslims especially men are supposed to say their daily prayers in the mosque..five times a day..If attending mosque five times a day is a litmus test for being an extremist, then every tom dick and harry muslim according to you would be an extremist..and there is no law which says that a man or a woman should find a partner who is similar to him or her. Life becomes very easy if both the partners have similiar view points..
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50. GvLaP: You got that one right.
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#36 colonelartist,
My first thoughts about this were that this man was an officer, as well as, a trained psychologist who happened to be Muslim. By outward appearances this man could be trusted to serve in the US military. Right or wrong, how many soldiers will now look with suspicion upon their Muslim brothers wearing the same uniform?
The idea he was traumatized by other soldiers combat experience and was so agitated at the thought of being deployed, in a non-combat role, that he went on a shooting spree is simply not credible
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The idea that only american soldiers get traumatized during and after war is simply not credible..Einstein, soldiers are put through physical and psychological training, the government use a lot of money on them..and then they are giving some sort of debriefing after the combat..Again the incompetent army of usa failed to notice that this guy was unstable..why they overlooked his behavour is something you should focus on...
Hey Einstein, who said only US soldiers are traumatized by war? It was not me. If this man was operating in a war zone, even as a non-combatant, he would no doubt be directly subjected to some form of stress disorder. He was not and had not been anywhere close to combat, except vicariously through others who had while in the comfy confines of Walter Reed. He was a trained psychologist who's job was to help other's work through their experiences. Even had he become stressed by their experience he did not live through them.
I do agree with you on the fact someone should have acted sooner on his apparent issues.
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instead of puting the blame on the actions of that person.Any tom dick and harry commander can see such obiovious signs which this guy was showing by his words..His commanding officer and all those who knew about his obvious anti american military acttivies, should be court martialed..or atleast be sent to barracks to be put before an inquiry commisson..To be in the american army and to support its enemies is an act of treason..Those who allowed him to do that have to be held accountable.
The blame should be put on the person who pulls the trigger. He did commit the murderous rampage. I do agree that persons who were knowledgeable of his issues share some responsibility. I'm sure those folks will be having long interviews with CID.
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All actions are preceeded by thoughts, (often unrecognized in irrational behaviour) that drive people. Those thoughts may appear senseless to others but it is the unrecognized 'mind talk' that is responsible for our actions not any external cause. So, for example if the man experienced a thought "I'm powerless" in response to his situation then his self-esteem would demand that he correct the balance in order to perceive himself as powerful and rectify his self-esteem. That then becomes the driving force behind his actions. By getting guns and killing people he regains his view of himself as someone with power, but then has to justify himself so creates a 'religious' reason to square his view of himself.
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Major Hasan joined the Army right after high school, about 20 years ago. A declaration of "no religious preference" at that time may well have been accurate, not a "lie" as asserted in post #49. Ironic that the baseless conclusion was made immediately following a quote from the President asking that people "not jump to conclusions."
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There seem to be some misconceptions about the number of weapons floating around on US military bases. With the exception of Military Policemen, soldiers only carry weapons when actively involved in training. At all other times, they are stored in vault style arms rooms. And when weapons are drawn from the arms room, soldiers are rarely issued live rounds. This is both for reasons of safety as well as to reduce the chances of militarized weapons finding their way into the general public.
Unless one is on a base primarily consisting of combat arms troops, you could go weeks or months without seeing an armed soldier. Fort Meade MD, for example, is an intelligance base, and with the exception of security personnel, I don't think I ever saw a weapon on the post in my months there. Even in my years as a combat engineer, living on infantry bases, soldiers were generally only issued live rounds when sent to the shooting range.
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There are 13 dead at Ft. Hood, it is a tragedy.
Yet you have a ranting nut-case here on this blog today, who looks upon it not as a time for introspection or grief, or sadness, but rather as just another opportunity to spew the same rabid anti-American hatred. And the BBC is giving him a platform to do it.
There is you problem, right out in the open, and visible before your eyes.
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If you have something to say about my posts, then atleast have the courage to say it directly...But if its your proffession to pass judgments right,left and center, then carry on..
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49 maria
"Of course no one wants a backlash or any kind of collective stereotyping of Muslims. But it is legitimate to ask Muslims to please take a much harder, less perfunctory look at the outlines & teachings of their belief system."
Of course it is a little early to know what really happened. Where is all this information about his religious habits coming from? We don't know anything yet.
And let's not start this backlash by making it a muslim thing. Teaching of religion can be easily corrupted, any religion.
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That then becomes the driving force behind his actions. By getting guns and killing people he regains his view of himself as someone with power, but then has to justify himself so creates a 'religious' reason to square his view of himself.
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What religious justification this guy has used? up until today no one, not even his closest co workers saw or suspect his religious beliefs or political belifs and now, everyone is talking as if they lived inside his mind..
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Sadness, anger, betrayal, rage, helplessness. People here don't know what to make of it.
How could a soldier in the United States Army, a doctor no less, do such a thing? And why didn't someone see it coming and prevent it? It's repugnant to Americans to single out people for their relgious beliefs but how many times can murderers shout "Allah akbar!" before it hardens non-Muslims against all Muslims?
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49 maria
"And jihadist websites are singing his praises to the heavens.
Well Duuhhh!
Ever heard of jumping on the bandwagon.
"Hard not to jump to conclusions..."
So you take the path of least resistance, the "obvious" option, that he was a radical fundamentalist bent on the distruction of the USA, on the strength of what , some web chatter.
You may be right, Maria, but in my world we wait for the information befoe judging.
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How could a soldier in the United States Army, a doctor no less, do such a thing? And why didn't someone see it coming and prevent it? It's repugnant to Americans to single out people for their relgious beliefs but how many times can murderers shout "Allah akbar!" before it hardens non-Muslims against all Muslims?
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So, if he had used the f word instead, that would have been okay? Somehow in some funny way, you and those who have listen to americans shouting the f word when they attack are quite similiar..those people think that americans are either sexually deprived or obbessed with sex that they shout the f word even when fighting..and you say, that using Allah Akbar is a sign of extremism..
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lets start with a fact
'Allah on 480 occasions in the Holy Koran extols Muslims to wage jihad'
that is that islam should wage holy war on non muslims,
so for the sake of the debate in relation to the fort hood slaughter lets take a section from a bbc article today (I cut and paste one para below)
Kamran Memon of the organisation Muslims For a Safe America says the subject splits America's Muslim community down the middle.
"Those at one end of the spectrum say we should have nothing to do with the US armed forces as they are involved in wars with our fellow Muslims abroad," he told the BBC
could you imagine a report in the uk in the second world war that stated
A. German/(Nazi?) of the organisation Germans/(Nazis?) For a Safe UK says the subject splits the UK German(Nazi?) community down the middle.
"Those at one end of the spectrum say we should have nothing to do with the UK armed forces as they are involved in wars with our fellow Germans(Nazi's) abroad," he told the BBC
Islam is at war with non muslims,
lets wake up before its too late!
I am a critic of all propaganda bbc, but when its in favour of the self declared enemy then aren't you assisting the suicide of our so called western democracy?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
How could a soldier in the United States Army, a doctor no less, do such a thing? And why didn't someone see it coming and prevent it? It's repugnant to Americans to single out people for their relgious beliefs but how many times can murderers shout "Allah akbar!" before it hardens non-Muslims against all Muslims?
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Its called the blow back effect. Now, something positive..in these past 9 years of wrong wars and killing in the name of democracy, just one episode...usa can easily digest such occassionaly low level blow back effects..While people will get hysterical, the military will continue to recruit muslims..
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as I see it,tragic as this sad news is, there is a clear chain of logic; This man was from Jordan but I called himself Palestinian. a muslim, he would have known of the cruel injustice endured by the palestinians on Israel. Obama said to Israel "halt all buildings in occupied Palestine." but still the Israelis ignored this, planning 3,000 houes. however mrs CLINTON, far from being angry with the Israelis encouraged them to build AND talk to Abbas . he refused. This man, the shooter, must have been angry at this moment. Plus, the shooter had been pushing not to be deployed to Iraq since 9/11, plus he had been councelling Trauma veterans from Iraq, plus he had been bullied for his faith,plus he must have heard the news that a Taliban policeman had shot British Soldiers. how ever tragic all of this was, the US should have seen the signs and acted quickly.
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“searching for patterns and for answers is part of what it is to be human. I loathe cliche, but perhaps, for once, this is a "senseless tragedy", devoid of deeper meaning”….it very likely is a senseless tragedy, although there is a certain irony in that the man was trained to be a psychiatrist, perhaps that’s where his problems started. Perhaps too, we should be searching for patterns in American and Israeli terrorism against Muslims and any other faiths or non-faiths that get in the way of their predatory imperial aims. Interestingly, there are reputed to have been 13 killed in this senseless tragedy in the U.S. but when 1300(!) Palestinians were murdered in a pre-meditated rampage by Israeli army gunmen in Gaza last winter, there was no great outcry in the U.S. Just as there has been no great sympathy for all the hundreds of thousands of uncounted Iraqis the U.S. has slaughtered. Or the escalating numbers of Obama’s victims in Afghanistan. The Amerikan flag should be permanently at half-mast for all its innumerable victims around the world – at home and abroad.
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lets start with a fact
'Allah on 480 occasions in the Holy Koran extols Muslims to wage jihad'
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Then let us start with a fact, tell me for fact that you actually counted the times Allah has told muslims to wage jihad? I who has memorized koran am not interested in counting how many times He has said what, and you actually did that? And did you just counted that and forgot the context in which He permits jihad?
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“searching for patterns and for answers is part of what it is to be human. I loathe cliche, but perhaps, for once, this is a "senseless tragedy", devoid of deeper meaning”….it very likely is a senseless tragedy, although there is a certain irony in that the man was trained to be a psychiatrist, perhaps that’s where his problems started. Perhaps too, we should be searching for patterns in American and Israeli terrorism against Muslims and any other faiths or non-faiths that get in the way of their predatory imperial aims. Interestingly, there are reputed to have been 13 killed in this senseless tragedy in the U.S. but when 1300(!) Palestinians were murdered in a pre-meditated rampage by Israeli army gunmen in Gaza last winter, there was no great outcry in the U.S. Just as there has been no great sympathy for all the hundreds of thousands of uncounted Iraqis the U.S. has slaughtered. Or the escalating numbers of Obama’s victims in Afghanistan. The Amerikan flag should be permanently at half-mast for all its innumerable victims around the world – at home and abroad.
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Plus you dont even know what your hired pakistani army is doing in south waziristan...Not one single western free media has up to day has even mentioned that no media person is allowed to enter south wazirstan..
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69 john
"there is a clear chain of logic"
No, that is a clear chain of speculation and supposition. A very different fish indeed.
Whatever his motivations (and I believe they will be less sinister than many think) the perpetrator is in custody and can be questionned and then tried for his crime. And convicted.
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colonelartist
Your posts are disgusting, repugnant and lack humanity.
It is obvious you have little respect for the infidel/kuffar.
You talk about wrong wars and bombs being dropped but I’m willing to bet this Muslim on Muslim war/violence doesn’t bother you in the slightest
“Saudi warplanes bomb Shia rebels in Yemen after border raid.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/6509677/Saudi-warplanes-bomb-Shia-rebels-in-Yemen-after-border-raid.html
Unlike you I’m against the taking of ANY HUMAN life, even if it is Muslim on Muslim life, now can you say the same?
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Islam is at war with non muslims,
lets wake up before its too late!
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its the non muslims who are waging a don quixote war against islam.
Muslims are simply fighting against oppression.
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Unlike you I’m against the taking of ANY HUMAN life, even if it is Muslim on Muslim life, now can you say the same?
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And like you, so is Obama against taking human lives, and so was bush, and blair and any other tom dick and harry who wants to score a cheap point..But there is no correlation between what they say and what they do..Now a days, thanks to america, its become a trend to attack other countries...before that one small incurssion and the matter used to go straight into UN. And my respect is not for free..if someone doesnt respect me or mine, I dont respect them with equal force if not more.
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Colonelartist you appear somewhat confused and contradict the visual evidence on video of religious affinity; family and friends statement of religious affinity and last words of religious affinity of the killer.
You appear to be subverting the facts in order to maintain your own view point; then expecting that to somehow convince others of your view point also! I am afraid you cannot expect others not to see through your method.
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In April, The News, a newspaper in Lahore, Pakistan, published figures provided by Pakistani officials indicating that 687 civilians have been killed along with 14 al Qaeda leaders in some 60 drone strikes since January 2008—just over 50 civilians killed for every al Qaeda leader. A paper published this week by the influential pro-military Centre for a New American Security (CNAS) criticising the Obama administration’s use of drone attacks in Pakistan says U.S. officials “vehemently dispute” the Pakistani figures but offers no further data on the programme.
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/06/hbc-90005193
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The latest attack yesterday. How many times have anyone here or in real world shown any humanity or whatever you generously wrote that I did not show..show me those emotions first and then ask me to show them to you..
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Colonelartist you appear somewhat confused and contradict the visual evidence on video of religious affinity; family and friends statement of religious affinity and last words of religious affinity of the killer.
You appear to be subverting the facts in order to maintain your own view point; then expecting that to somehow convince others of your view point also! I am afraid you cannot expect others not to see through your method.
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So what if he was a muslim and so what if he was a devout muslim..He killed because in his culture that is american culture, thats what upset people do in america, you have a history full of such episodes....And I dont expect anyone to get convinced of my method..its an american tradition...And I run away from such traditions..
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Initially first thoughts is with the victims and their loved ones. I hope this doesn't turn into another anti-Islam fest by right wing morons. I wonder how many Sikhs they will attack this time!
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The tragedy is that the US still has learned nothing from 9-11. It is quite simple. There are many Muslims who believe the infidel or nonbeliever should be killed. This nutcase got his college paid for by the US and had to put in his time in the military. But alas, he had no idea the US would actually get into a war with Muslims. He had made it known where is sympathies lied and he was ignored. Now everyone is running around being sensitive about whether Muslims will be scrutinized. OF COURSE MUSLIMS HAVE TO BE SCRUTINIZED. How else are you going to know if they are one of the nutcases or not? But here in this country, we will go out of the way not to be looked at as engaging in profiling. Let's search every fourth person who gets on a plane, even if its a 90 year old women, but not the Muslim chanting God is Great in front of her. And let's not secure the Mexican border because that could be construed as racist. And let's not look at persons who are learning how to fly planes but not interested in taking off or landing them. That would be common sense. I am sure glad we take some much time and energy not to offend anyone. I know, I am a bigot of some sort for writing this. I know. You know in schools now they teach kids that 9-11 was a day some buuildings collapsed as if it was due to some architectural defect. Amazing. We don't want to offend anyone by tellign kids religious nutjobs killed 3000 people. That's insensitive.
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This is clearly an act of Muslim/Islam terrorism perpetrated against our country. This man, Nadal, needs to be tried for not only murder and attempted murder, but also for treason, due to his statements against our country. I absolutely believe that he should be executed. To think this man was treating soldiers makes me incredibly angry. If he wanted out of the army, all he had to do was tell people he was gay. I mean, come on! Muslim/Islam extremism gives me and many other Americans thoughts of revenge. I don't want to go down that path, but it is already here.
It is not a war on terrorism that the USA is fighting. It is a war against the extremist Muslim/Islam groups. I don't trust any of them. Not a single one.
I have been around Indians, Asians, Hispanics and so many other immigrants, yet these people just want to learn and be friendly. The terrorists are claim Muslim/Islam as their faith. Americans know who the enemy is. If the enemy thinks he can defeat us, then he is wrong. To the enemies of America, we will be coming after you.
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so colenelartist, you say
'Muslims are simply fighting against oppression'
thankyou for your opinion, now lets look at the dictionary definition of oppression
'Oppression is the negative outcome experienced by people targeted by the cruel exercise of power in a society or social group. It is particularly closely associated with nationalism and derived social systems, wherein identity is built by antagonism to the other. The term itself derives from the idea of being "weighted down." '
now islam is entirely based on the concept of submission see definition of islam below
'A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.'
definition of submission below
'The act of submitting to the power of another: "Oppression that cannot be overcome does not give rise to revolt but to submission"'
So following the logic does that mean that islam is oppression that cannot be overcome?
so if muslims want to win their fight against oppression can I humbly propose that they become apostate
'a person who abandons his religion'
in which case they will win their fight? as will we all?
the west does not want to oppress islam, the religion itself oppresses those within it
I suggest for world peace, give it up followers of Islam, Apostate!
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President Obama has not called this an act of Muslim/Islam terrorism yet, but Americans know that it is. We are wise to their lies.
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I have been around Indians, Asians, Hispanics and so many other immigrants, yet these people just want to learn and be friendly. The terrorists are claim Muslim/Islam as their faith. Americans know who the enemy is. If the enemy thinks he can defeat us, then he is wrong. To the enemies of America, we will be coming after you.
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If tomorrow america starts to attack maoist hide outs in india or castro- cuba, then you would find that your indian and asian,(whoever they maybe) and hispanics friends of yours would not be as friendly as you thought they were..But you have something in common with the muslims, they dont trust americans, and you dont trust them, thats how it should be..And I dont think you will be coming after your enemies, you will buy some military or contractors to do that job for you..to say it more directly, "that day will never come when a dweller of a desert climb up K2 mountain".
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Colonel
"Muslims were not brought up to understand why non muslims are so ready to kill in the name of democracy and yet in past 8 yrs millions of muslims are killed in its name."
Where do you get this figures from? Millions? Still just in case others here do not know of your views it might be worth noting that some Muslims do not have as much support from you. remember when you refused to condemn the beheading of a Muslim teacher in front of his pupils for daring to teach girls or when you refused to condemn the men who threw acid in the faces of the school girls - both incidents that occured in Afghanistan. I suppose both acts like this latest one were justified by the USA defending the Muslim Tajiks, Uzbeks etc against your Pushtun tribe who wish to dominate them.
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81 law12193
"OF COURSE MUSLIMS HAVE TO BE SCRUTINIZED. How else are you going to know if they are one of the nutcases or not?"
Scrutinize all of them. Round them up, number them and interrogate them to make sure they are not harbouring any unamerican sentiment ..... and then lock 'em anyway - these sleeper agents are highly trained to resist interogation.
Internment and fear. That's the answer.
You could apply the same logic to postal workers.
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'A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.'
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Maybe I need glasses, or maybe i am not as genious as you are...but pray do tell me, how on earth did you, from "submission to Allah and Mohammad" concluded that muslims cannot fight against oppression? You submit to G-d and you submit to Prophet and you fight against oppression..because, unfortunately for muslims, G-d has told them that He doesnt like oppression, and then asked them a million dollar follow up question,if they would like something that G-d dispises.So when muslim say they fight in the name of G-d, they actually mean this..nothing more and nothing less..But ofcourse you would never believe this, so muslims, even I couldnt care less what you believe muslims believe when they say what they say..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mark: I like you to note the dramatically different treatment media is meting out to the FortHood & Orlando stories. From what we know the Major in Forthood was pissed off at his employers (US Army) & apparently so is the case with Jason Rodriguez in Orlando. Both were grandly stupid to take their anger on innocent fellow employees. Media however doesn't miss a beat in highlighting Major's religion & treats Rodriguez for what he is - a criminal with no reference to his faith.
As a professional journalist, what's your take on this treatment or mis-treatment?
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We are not like the Scottish. Americans have no empathy for terrorists and murderers. We want to take them all out.
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Scrutinize all of them. Round them up, number them and interrogate them to make sure they are not harbouring any unamerican sentiment ..... and then lock 'em anyway - these sleeper agents are highly trained to resist interogation.
Internment and fear. That's the answer.
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yes. You can. You have done it before, in fallujah after those four black water guys were killed by some mob..american reaction, Besiege the city and go on a killing spree...On some level, this guy did a low level Fallujah..
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Colonel
This is funny:
"its the non muslims who are waging a don quixote war against islam.
Muslims are simply fighting against oppression."
When not oppressing their own kind - most of the Middle East, Western Sahara, Iraq, Iran etc etc Muslim majorities states oppress any other group unfortunate to be under their control - try looking up Christians in Northern Nigeria, Sudan, Eygpt, Iraq, Indonesia; Hindus in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Maylasia - in fact there is NOT ONE Muslim country that gives non-muslims the same rights as Muslims - though they expect equal treatment when in non-Muslim countries.
Sadly it seems that whilst most of the world is trying to move forward one area is constantly moving backwards as fast as possible to the dark ages. Of course we wouldn't mind but it wastes so much of the rest of the worlds time - like having a stroppy teenager in your team.
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ref #72
It did not take long for somoene to throw out the blame U.S and Israel card.
The man was disturbed and his rantings on hate sight extolling the virtures of jihad should have been discovered. Of course Holder has hmstrung the FBI.
But it is too early to see if was a terrorists or a disturbed man who used Islam as an excuse.
But the left with bomb throwers like Randi Rose have already used this as an excuse to bash the military.
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82. Illinoisan wrote:
"This is clearly an act of Muslim/Islam terrorism perpetrated against our country."
This is not "clearly" anything of the sort. You are seriously jumping the gun, and fuelling the ever-present knee-jerk reaction squard.
You may be right in the long run, but as the president said "Don't jump to conclusions"
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" I absolutely believe that he should be executed."
Well God bless your little christian heart.!
You may get your wish given the state it occurred in.
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"Muslim/Islam extremism gives me and many other Americans thoughts of revenge. I don't want to go down that path, but it is already here."
But revenge on who? The nearest muslim? Who are you gonna lynch to satisfy your manly need for blood.
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There's alot of righteous anger out there, but really sadness is more appropriate as a reaction. Sadness for the families and colleagues of the dead and wounded soldiers. Sadness for the friends and colleagues of the killer - they must be tearing themselves up that they didn't see the signs..... and also sadness for the millions of American muslims, hindus, sikhs and other people likely to be looked at suspiciously, harassed or aggressed as the crazies go out their for some blind revenge.
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Where do you get this figures from? Millions? Still just in case others here do not know of your views it might be worth noting that some Muslims do not have as much support from you. remember when you refused to condemn the beheading of a Muslim teacher in front of his pupils for daring to teach girls or when you refused to condemn the men who threw acid in the faces of the school girls - both incidents that occured in Afghanistan. I suppose both acts like this latest one were justified by the USA defending the Muslim Tajiks, Uzbeks etc against your Pushtun tribe who wish to dominate them.
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Just because americans dont give you or dont want to keep the record of their kills, doesnt mean that other people are doing the same...Pathans are majority in afghanistan, although there is a campaign going on to turn them into a minority, but that will never happen...they are the only people who from hundreds of years have made Afghanistan what Afghanistan is today, the tajiks and the rest, if they come in power, they will divide it into small local areas ruled by local war lords....Pathans are the unofficial gaurdians of the frontiers of both pakistan and afghanistan...and only a fool or american would fight the gaurdians of the frontiers of both the countries..
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Colonel
You said "But you have something in common with the muslims, they dont trust americans, and you dont trust or them, thats how it should be.."
There you go - speaking truthfully for once! In your mind there must be constant war between Muslims and the rest of the world until the Muslims win and then what? Well the utopia that your hero Qutab and his fellow travellers think you will get. Unfortunately for you there is no utopia at the end of your violent rainbow - the reason that the Islamic world is so far behind the rest of the world is because of your religion and culture not because there isn't enough of it.
I do not fear a Caliphate because the likelihood that all the Muslims in the world let alone a small sized room could all agree on one person to lead them is about 1.5 billion to 1!
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89. Illinoisan wrote:
"This violent act is the most serious crime in the USA since 9/11.
There will be backlash.
All hell has broken loose.
Satan is working hard and he is recruiting people by the second. Most of them are Muslim/Islam extremists."
Yes, you are right. There's a passage in Revelation that predicted this. Armageddon, bring it on. Vote Palin.
Satan called to recruit me, but luckily I have call screening and pretended to be out!
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90 shak
"Media however doesn't miss a beat in highlighting Major's religion & treats Rodriguez for what he is - a criminal with no reference to his faith."
Shak
There are loonies posting here who think the media is not emphasising the major's religion ENOUGH!
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91. Illinoisan ranted:
"We are not like the Scottish. Americans have no empathy for terrorists and murderers. We want to take them all out."
Gratuitous and offensive.
You seem to have no empathy at all.
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92. colonel idiot wrote:
"Scrutinize all of them. Round them up, number them and interrogate them to make sure they are not harbouring any unamerican sentiment ..... and then lock 'em anyway - these sleeper agents are highly trained to resist interogation.
Internment and fear. That's the answer.
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yes. You can. You have done it before, in fallujah after those four black water guys were killed by some mob..american reaction, Besiege the city and go on a killing spree...On some level, this guy did a low level Fallujah.."
HAVE YOU NO SENSE OF IRONY.
Try reading the thread instead of just blurting out whatever comes into your head. I was criticising post 81 - but I guess it was way to subtle for you.
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There you go - speaking truthfully for once! In your mind there must be constant war between Muslims and the rest of the world until the Muslims win and then what? Well the utopia that your hero Qutab and his fellow travellers think you will get.
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This is a gross under estimation, I dont know whether to laugh or to cry at your grand under estimation...the war is not being waged in my mind, but in my backyard..And if americans get so angry and hper at this small incidence, do I not have the right to point politely what is being done in my backyard in all secrecy..and why americans are so eager to let their government to keep it as a secret...And I always speak truthfully...that one you should know since you have generously reminded me what I have said and refuse to say in the past about atleast three things now..
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Ref 89, Illinoisan
"This violent act is the most serious crime in the USA since 9/11.
There will be backlash.
All hell has broken loose.
Satan is working hard and he is recruiting people by the second. Most of them are Muslim/Islam extremists."
Try to stay focus before you start calling for a second crusade. Violence is a daily event in our country, and as disturbing as this one is, it is no different from many of the events that take place in the USA almost every month. The difference, of course, is that this one was carried out by a Muslim. Had it been another Timothy McVeigh I doubt people would be talking about invading the Midwest or all hell breaking lose. We would simply shake our heads wondering what this world has come to.
This man was, obviously, disturbed and probably mentally ill, Unless evidence is produced indicating a connection to a terrorist or an extremist organization I believe we should consider this the evil work of one man. It is premature to pull a Bushism and blame an entire culture.
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This is off topic, but I hope it will lighten your day
From Mark Easton's UK Blog
"16. At 01:33am on 06 Nov 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
For once I have to agree with the French."
There it is folks, in black and white.
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52. At 9:03pm on 06 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
It was a knee jerk question, but you are correct that i really dont want to know anything about american culture..I was hoping that you being american, would have forgotten about that, and I just squeezed this question.. because people have swtiched on their "because of islam he did it" mode..and since islam is not american culture so I generously tried to make you focus on your own culture.
I am neither forgetful nor stupid. Neither are most people who post on the blog, no matter where they come down on the political spectrum. And your "generosity" is not only misplaced, but ill timed and unwanted.
The guy who killed is an american, and in america when people are upset about things, they go on a shooting spree..ergo he acted according to his cultural values.Nothing more and nothing less.
If that were the case, in a country with a population of 300 million where some 200 million are estimated to be gun owners, we'd all already be dead. Therefore, it cannot be cultural as you imply, but an aberration.
As far as obama is concerned, he will and you will see it..I guarantee you this.
You can guarantee nothing. I have met Mr. Obama. He served for many years as my local representative to the state legislature. So I can guarantee you that he will not use this sad incident to attack Muslims. The President of the United States does not make important military decisions based on what one crazy person does, no matter how terrible.
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When not oppressing their own kind - most of the Middle East, Western Sahara, Iraq, Iran etc etc Muslim majorities states oppress any other group unfortunate to be under their control - try looking up Christians in Northern Nigeria, Sudan, Eygpt, Iraq, Indonesia; Hindus in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Maylasia - in fact there is NOT ONE Muslim country that gives non-muslims the same rights as Muslims - though they expect equal treatment when in non-Muslim countries.
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You have my permission to not muslims as you treat non muslims in a non muslim country...You should know from my past encounter with you, that I have no such objections...Do what governments in middle east, including your own israel does..If israel can adapt to muslim countries of not treating the minorities equally, surely you can too...And if you are scared of being compared to muslims if you do that, I suggest you point to israel and people will accept it at once.There I have given you a free advice as well..
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Colonel
You wrote "Pathans are majority in afghanistan, although there is a campaign going on to turn them into a minority, but that will never happen..."
Um..Pushtuns make up roughly 40% of the population of Afghanistan - that would make non Pushtuns 60% or the MAJORITY of the population. Of course the present (and seemingly corrupt) President and his party are actually Pushtun - so not sure who wants to make these people the minority? Then again one of the things that stands out about the Islamic world is the belief that the rest of us spend our time giving a damn about their tribal squabbles - we don't. I supported the war in Afghanistan because I wanted children to have the oppotunity to get an education and fulfil their potential - unfortunately the current regime is putting in laws that surpress the very people our troops are supposed to defend and help so I would be very happy to bring our boys and girls home and swap them for all those afghans that live in my country and shout about how great Islam is and how great it would be to turn us into another pushtun failed state.
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To Romestu
Where in my comments does it say I want all Muslims rounded up? Your exactly why so many more people will be killed in this country in the name of PC. Do the Isrealis round up every Arab or Palestinian and put them into camps to hav security? No. What they do though is do a lot better job at profiling and investigating people who meet the profile. El Al is the safest airline to fly on. Why? Because the Isreali assess threats correctly. A Muslim applying to be in the military needs to be looked at to determine if he or she espouses to the view that nonbelievers should be killed. Will he or she kill another Muslim on the battlefield? Does he or she believe that Jews are nothing more than pigs (this is taught in many schools in the Middle East)? SCRUTINY does not mean internment. But unfortunately, any scrutiny is equated with bigtory or racism or right wing extremism. You have illustrated my point by going off the deep end.
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colonelartist
my point is that you shouldn't 'still' submit to your prophet because
Muhammad according to world standards today was
a paedophile,
Pedophilia is the primary or exclusive sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths
see reasoning below
Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated. Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.
a misogynist
misogynistic - hating women in particular
see reasoning below
the basic rights given to men through Mohammed and The Koran, which include: the right to multiple wives and concubines; the right to beat and rape one's wife if she refuses to submit to sex; the right to terminate a marriage at any time without legal process; the right to all children and property from the marriage if divorced; the right to bring one's wife to court for suspected adultery; and, if she is found guilty, the right to bury her in the ground up to her waist and stone here to death (as was done in at least four cases in Iran in the last seven years). These same rights do not extend to women in regards to their husbands.
Islam may have brought some structure to barbarism in the saudi peninsular 1400 years ago...
but then again we were burning witches in the middle ages and our monarchs marrying minors...
we've moved on since then
when will islam?
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Its very sad, and it just furthers hatreds. But, this idea that we should take the worst possibility and treat it as the gospel truth is as bad as religious extremism....
Hate at your own risk--this person proves it. You can fall victim to the extreme fringes and may be ostracised from society... hopefully.
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Colonel
"This is a gross under estimation, I dont know whether to laugh or to cry at your grand under estimation...the war is not being waged in my mind, but in my backyard..And if americans get so angry and hper at this small incidence, do I not have the right to point politely what is being done in my backyard in all secrecy"
I have every sympathy with people whose lives are touch by violence wherever they are but lets face facts - when the Pakistani government gave the Pushtun Taliban an inch (the Swot valley) they responded by taking a mile (attacking the neighbouring states). If your friends what peace then offer peace not more war especially when it is offered first.
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yes. You can. You have done it before, in fallujah after those four black water guys were killed by some mob..american reaction, Besiege the city and go on a killing spree...On some level, this guy did a low level Fallujah.."
HAVE YOU NO SENSE OF IRONY.
Try reading the thread instead of just blurting out whatever comes into your head. I was criticising post 81 - but I guess it was way to subtle for you.
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If this had happened in kabul or kandahar or in iraq or in peshawar pakistan, against those black water contractors, americans would have by now seiged the whole cities and had done a fallujah re-run..or forced their croonies in iraq, afghanistan or pakistan to do it for them...They should do do it in usa...Or otherwise, it will be another case of "two different sets of rules" one for america and americans and the other for the muslims...Starting from that american guy captured in Qila jangi who wasnt sent to gitmo but to american prison, and up to this episode..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Colonel
"If israel can adapt to muslim countries of not treating the minorities equally, surely you can too...And if you are scared of being compared to muslims if you do that, I suggest you point to israel and people will accept it at once.There I have given you a free advice as well.."
What like giving Israeli Arabs the vote and equal rights? Terrible people those Israelis. However, we are in danger in indulging in the usual Islamic point at Israel to divert our attention from the terrible suffering of Muslims and minorities in the islamic run world. Of course I would never support the West becoming like these Muslim regimes anymore than I would burn our liberies or support the ending of women's rights.
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my point is that you shouldn't 'still' submit to your prophet because
Muhammad according to world standards today was
a paedophile,
Pedophilia is the primary or exclusive sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths
see reasoning below
Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated. Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.
a misogynist
misogynistic - hating women in particular
see reasoning below
the basic rights given to men through Mohammed and The Koran, which include: the right to multiple wives and concubines; the right to beat and rape one's wife if she refuses to submit to sex; the right to terminate a marriage at any time without legal process; the right to all children and property from the marriage if divorced; the right to bring one's wife to court for suspected adultery; and, if she is found guilty, the right to bury her in the ground up to her waist and stone here to death (as was done in at least four cases in Iran in the last seven years). These same rights do not extend to women in regards to their husbands.
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You and your world's standards...I salute them...and after saluting them I say to you this; If Mohammad had more wives than he had...muslims would still respect him...and submit to Allah...i dont know if you know and I didnt point to you because of my inner impulse to keep you ignorant...but that impulse is gone so i think I should correct you that muslims dont submit to Mohammad, they submit to G-d. idol or human worshipping is banned in islam...And No.its not a right of a man to have multiple wives, its a choice...Otherwise majority of muslim men would have mulitple or atleast dual wife system...But in reality its a minority that uses this choice..The wife has a right to have a prenuptial agreement.End of lecture.
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El Al is the safest airline to fly on. Why? Because the Isreali assess threats correctly.
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Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, gulf and kuwait airlines are savest to travel and with less security ritual..Pakistani airlines is also safe, but its planes are old..
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Ladies and gentlemen:
We have all the facts we need. The news media has spoken. The best evidence is discovered hysterically. No better judges exist. Reporters are never wrong when they shoot from the hip to fill air-time between commercials. There can be no other evidence obtained through reasonable investigation. No need for a trial. Caught the fella red-handed. The world will see that we mean justice when we hang him. Man the belfries! Call in the bats! Full steam ahead!
The Founding Fathers wasted their time developing a Judicial branch of the governement. Only the innocent deserve a fair trial. Or so it seems.
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Um..Pushtuns make up roughly 40% of the population of Afghanistan - that would make non Pushtuns 60% or the MAJORITY of the population. Of course the present (and seemingly corrupt) President and his party are actually Pushtun - so not sure who wants to make these people the minority?
What like giving Israeli Arabs the vote and equal rights? Terrible people those Israelis.
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i will kill two birds with one stone and reply to your two different posts here..
pathans are in majority..the rest tajiks, hazaras and etc etc are less than 30% each...Karzai was made the president because of taliban...not because he was pathan...To appoint a pathan as president, america tried to win the hearts of pathans and some taliban at the same time provide an anti taliban but pathan leader,its another thing that he has always supported other groups before taliban and after he was appointed and during these elections when he asked dostum to force his people to vote for karzai..
Arabs lived in those lands before the settles came..i was talking about the new kind of workers that israel now relies on after it has made palestinians redundent...The ones from india, and thailand and those countries...those people are treated in the same way in israel as any other migrant worker is treated in dubai or saudi arabia or any other middle eastern country, no rights at all, their pass port is kept with the employer and employer can terminate the job at any time without any reason, they cannot owen a property etc etc etc..
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To Calvin: "a muslim will blow himself in hopes of killing those who disagree with him" I am not sure I understand this comment. Are you saying all Muslims will kill people who take another point of view? If so, I hope you are not serious. I do agree that certain Muslims espouse to very extreme views and will kill as part of a deranged thought that they are doing Allah's bidding. The key is to find out if a Muslim seeking to join the military has those views. If one fails to identify the extremist Muslim at that point then signs must be looked for in the future such as expressions of sympathy in regard to Muslim terrorists. In the Fort Hood incident, a picture is emerging that the shooter should have been identified as a threat to soldiers.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To Calvin: "a muslim will blow himself in hopes of killing those who disagree with him" I am not sure I understand this comment. Are you saying all Muslims will kill people who take another point of view? If so, I hope you are not serious. I do agree that certain Muslims espouse to very extreme views and will kill as part of a deranged thought that they are doing Allah's bidding. The key is to find out if a Muslim seeking to join the military has those views. If one fails to identify the extremist Muslim at that point then signs must be looked for in the future such as expressions of sympathy in regard to Muslim terrorists. In the Fort Hood incident, a picture is emerging that the shooter should have been identified as a threat to soldiers.
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While you are focused on how to filter out the extremists from military, the military i am sure is busy thinking how to make it safe from the infiltrators...The shooter should have been identified the momment he started praising the enemies...in army its considered a treason..and if american army cannot identify that then there is no difference between this so called higly trained and powerful army and those flying school instructures who allowed those 9/elleveners to continue to learn flying when they had shown no interest in learning how to land the plane..Incompetency is in abudance in usa..No wonder, the americans blame others, if they start looking at themselves they will turn into stones..at seeing so much incompetency.
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I have every sympathy with people whose lives are touch by violence wherever they are but lets face facts - when the Pakistani government gave the Pushtun Taliban an inch (the Swot valley) they responded by taking a mile (attacking the neighbouring states). If your friends what peace then offer peace not more war especially when it is offered first.
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Either you have a sympathy or you dont, there are no buts..because when you use the word, but after sympathisizing, you actually take that expressed sympathy back...Where I come from we dont have any conditional sympathy..to such people we say...Thank you very much, but you can keep your sympathy to yourself, lots of others who are ready to give genuine and unconditional sympathy...And the word is Swat, nor Swot.The pakistani government didnt give taliban anything over there...It encouraged a common criminal to hire other common criminals and thats what it did before things got out of control...the reason for encouraging that particular criminal were local power struggle..nothing else.
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How will I ever find out what rule my post broke..there are so many rules and i have no idea what i wrote..
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Just look at the eyes of this man, such gentle eyes not the eyes of a born killer.It is very sad this has happened and I feel mostly for those other military asians in the US Forces who will now be looked upon with mistrust.This in my opinion is a result of a human being under pressure resulting in serious brain damage.Even with all his skills as a doctor of the mind,he was unable to cure himself.What is it that broke the camel`s back ? I ask ?I would like to know and welcome the military`s investigations,I pray they find the truth.
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Just look at the eyes of this man, such gentle eyes not the eyes of a born killer.It is very sad this has happened and I feel mostly for those other military asians in the US Forces who will now be looked upon with mistrust.This in my opinion is a result of a human being under pressure resulting in serious brain damage.Even with all his skills as a doctor of the mind,he was unable to cure himself.What is it that broke the camel`s back ? I ask ?I would like to know and welcome the military`s investigations,I pray they find the truth.
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And what I would like to know is where his supervisor was? Do these military psychiatrist not work as a team? or are they not provided with a support psychiatrist..Lots of people need to be court martialed here.
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Mark, as the BBCs North American editor, why do you feel the need to justify for professional reasons discussing the motives of the killer in such a significant news event? Shouldn't it go without saying that it is your job to do so? Also, I notice on the main news report on the incident, the BBC has decided that Adam Brookes' opinion that military medicine might be on trial too is given prominence, with no more evidence to support this view at the moment than that the killer acted for religious reasons. You can read this directly beneath the Obama quote about not jumping to conclusions. Would you agree that BBC journalists have decided to "downplay" the significance of the killer's religion as a possible motive in comparison to any other possible reason?
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If that were the case, in a country with a population of 300 million where some 200 million are estimated to be gun owners, we'd all already be dead. Therefore, it cannot be cultural as you imply, but an aberration.
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Okay, I think I have managed to find a compromise here..with which you will also be satisfied..gaurantee...Its an aberration that is rooted in the culture..not an aberration in itself..a cultural aberration..I wasnt saying obama is going to kill muslims becaause of this episode, that one he is already doing it...I said, he will use it to increase the troop level in afghanistan.
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The US military has been under too much pressure. Only 1% of the population defends the rest. The US spends very little money on mental health. The VA prefers to ignore it. It seems the shooter was schaphrenic and had been showing symtoms for some time. But like those who criticize frivalous law suits of medical practicianers, his behavior was swept under the rug by the Vetrans' Administration. Instead they want to put the doctor on point so that he would have probably have been killed in Iraq. This is a treatment left over from Vietnam.
Being a Muslim around a bunch of smart mouthed Christian youth who think their mission is to bring Christ to the heathen at the business end of an AK47 must be hell. Racism and prejusdice as part of military training is par. In Vietnam it was gooks. In Desert Storm, it was Desert N---ers. Now it is Rag Heads and cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad. We civilians are told that the peoples in the Middle East are heathens and extremist, yet Bush let the Neocons: American Zionist bring into war so that eventually Christ would walk in Jersalem, kill the Jews and allow the Christians to take over. It was more the tale that Hitler told of his 1000 Year Reich than a man who went to Princeton tell his American peoples, yet some believed and all the military followed.
It makes you wonder who the insane person or people are in the senario of Fort Hood. US for allowing our young men and military professional to be mistreated or allowing them to mistreat each other.
Peace is elusive, but I wish we would hunt for it like we look for the financial recovery. Like the song goes: Soon as my feet touch Zion.....
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http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Camp_7_and_the_Torturer's_Shrink
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Whenever I read about an incident which involves the killing of innocent people I feel grief toward the families of the victims but also disguised the way Islam is linked to most of them. When I first read the news I noticed the name was Arabic, after that I was just waiting the link to Islam to show. Islam is a religion which is practiced by 1.9 billion people in the world. When one person or a group of people dose such violent act it is unfair to generalize all Muslims are terrorists. What I am trying to say here is not to judge a whole religion or country on the acts of few people. Iraq invaded Kuwait 1990, we can’t hate all Iraqis for Saddam‘s doing. Hitler killed the Jews; Jew can’t hate All Germans for what he did. American solders torturing prisoners in Abu Greeb and more in Guantanamo Bay can we say all American solder are war criminals? No because they are a few people from an army of more than a million.
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#130 EXCELLENT POST. Jim Jones, the Spanish Inquisition, the Aztecs ... it goes on and on. Gruesome to keep score by religion. gruesome blog 'senseless tragedy'?...duh.
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Why do we have to assume he did this because he's a Muslim? Why can't we explore the possibility that some psychiatric doctrine started him down this path. He could have yelled "Allah Akbar" to throw us off the trail. After all, I know many Muslims and they mostly seem as sane as everyone else. By contrast, most of the psychiatrists I've met have had a few screws loose and this will certainly gain them more patients to push drugs on. But maybe I'm just biased because my one major prejudice is against psychiatrist. I especially dislike and distrust US Army ones.
However, I don't agree that this was senseless just because it doesn't make sense to me. If I didn't want to deploy that badly I would have just risked some jail time and shot myself in the foot. I never would have thought that I had the right to kill others over this. That being said, it obviously made some sense to the gunman or he wouldn't have done it. Whether he justified it through religion, psychiatry, or some belief we don't know about, he had a pretty strong reason (in his own mind) for doing it. I don't particularily care what that reason was and hope that he gets the death penalty but he did have a reason for doing it so it wasn't senseless.
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Whenever I talk about these things to my two Christian friends from the Middle East they smile and say "What do you expect?"
Should a British Prime Minister or a Police Commissioner say that Islam is a religion of peace they smile indulgently at some presumed corruption. They tell me that if Muslims admit to wanting Shariah Law (for Muslims of course) they are likely to approve of such actions. Taking part in such actions is a step on a higher level as most people do not like to commit suicide.
What these two Christians find unnatural is the Western media attempts to turn what they think is a natural angry and protective reaction by the indigenous population, into talk of anti-Islamic bigotry, "how does it feel to be a Muslim in Britain, Italy or whatever", parading the terrorist's mother on TV, having "multi-faith" TV conferences, or judging it mistakenly to be a reaction to presumed "religious and racial insults"
In their opinion such actions will recur and increase wherever there is Muslim immigration. What do British and American ordinary citizens think and forecast?
Th
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My own opinion is that if a terroristic act takes place anywhere in the world in 2009 and the terrorists invoke the name of God, it is likely that the terrorists are Muslim in at least 95% of the cases.
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127. At 01:13am on 07 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
Okay, I think I have managed to find a compromise here..with which you will also be satisfied..gaurantee...Its an aberration that is rooted in the culture..not an aberration in itself..a cultural aberration..
If that's the case, then suicide bombing, also known as spitting on the Koran by killing non-combatants, is a cultural aberration of Islam. So if you'll agree that suicide bombing is an aberration within Islamic culture, I'll accept that mass shootings are an aberrant form of behavior for Americans.
I wasnt saying obama is going to kill muslims becaause of this episode, that one he is already doing it...I said, he will use it to increase the troop level in afghanistan.
I know what you said and my response is: No, he won't. Because he doesn't need such a lame excuse. Everyone already knows he's going to send more troops. The only question is: How many and when?
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Other than the Texas tragedy, no-one has touched on that in Florida. Rather than discuss religious matters surely this raises the issue of gun control, especially when it involves small arms - pistols and revolvers. No one can tell me that they're necessary for use in a militia.
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There are Millions of murders happening in the world around us, but which gets the most media attention anything with the "Islam". When one soldier dies in Iraq or Afghanistan everyone in the world will know it... but when tens of people die every day in Palestine there is no coverage or it is called "terrorist attacks". I not try to defend any wrong doing here but what I'm trying to say stop "Generalizing". God gave every person a brain to think for himself so every person is different. Not because you live a house with your family, you have think as your parents.
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If one has not had any direct experience with deployment to a combat zone (i.e. being deployed or having a spouse, child, or someone very close to you deployed), then one has little idea of the stresses deployment bring about in a person and those close to them.
It often seems overwhelming. Can easily become overwhelming.
I have seen people whom everyone looked to as a cornerstone of strength and self-control become more than a little unsettled during deployment. Their behavior just doesn't become headline news.
Lack of sleep, meals caught at haphazard times, rushing about to take care of personal business so that one's affairs are in order for the length of deployment, general confusion and a multitude of tasks for the deploying unit (no matter how "deployment ready" the unit has been judged), saying good-bye to family and friends...
The list of stress factors goes on for considerable length. All these stresses compacted into a small window of time. Add a good dose of fear to the mix. Fear for one's own life. Fear of one's ability to perform the duties expected of them. Fear for the loved one's left behind at home...
Any one thing, or any multiples of things could have been enough to set this human being off on a collision course with insanity. I have seen others become lost to the stress. They are taken away as quietly as possible. This person obviously slipped through the cracks.
Do not speculate and rush to judgement about things one does not understand. If you have not been directly involved in a deployment, you have only speculation to misguide your judgements.
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Publius Detroit, as stressful as deployment is it does not justify mass-murder nor does it drive most people to kill their fellow soldiers.
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Lesinge 1961, gordonbcross, et al:
Please do not feed the troll.
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I agree that this was and is a senseless, destructive and terribly damaging tragedy. One paramount concern regarding the choice of words used by so many reporters is that this man, the shooter was a muslim.
Had he been white, with an 'ordinary' sounding western name, would he have been described as Episcopalian, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Methodist or Baptist? I too, have no sympathy for or understanding of the more radical Islamists that we hear so much about, but I can see no point whatsoever in further inflaming peoples fears and sensitivities by thus singling out this faith group.
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Mass murder can never be justified. It can be explained as an act without links to religion and terrorism due to the very high and unique nature of the stresses involved in deployment. As we have seen many times in the past, high levels of stress can lead to attempted murder, even mass murder, not related to religious beliefs nor conspired terrorism. This has happened in places of work, schools and colleges, churches, a shooter in a tower...
The U.S. Department of Defense does not publicize the acts of violence committed by military personnel during deployment processing. Nor do they report the number of military personnel that become mentally unfit for duty during deployment processing. It would be bad for recruitement. Even though the percentage is small.
One need witness only a couple incidents of very unstable behavior to know how dangerous a person can be when stress over-comes reason. Especially when that person has been trained as a combatant. The situation becomes life-critical in a matter of moments.
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ref #130
Since you brought up the subject there are two areas where most moslem moderates fail
1. Their refusal to condemn those who use Islam to condcut terrorism
2. Too make peace with Israel or have normal dipomatic relations when Israel has never had conflict. Forget your religion and make peace with the peaceful size not people who chose to be ruled by terrorists
What is your reply to that?
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Perhaps one thing that may come of this tragedy will be a heightened awareness of the toll the Iraq/Afghan wars are taking on soldiers and military families. Military families are strong, resilient, heroic, but not without limits. With enough tension, they will break. Our role as citizens is to lift them up, support them, and assist in recovery. If you're not willing to do that, stfu.
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Ref 144 ftpatches-
"Perhaps one thing that may come of this tragedy will be a heightened awareness of the toll the Iraq/Afghan wars are taking on soldiers and military families."
It is not just that military families will break. They are breaking and have been breaking. Divorce in military families is well above the national average per capita. Domestic violence is all too common. Alcohol and drug-abuse amoung returning troops is out of hand. Multiple deployments to combat theaters multiplies the problems. The military culture of denial keeps troops from getting help they badly need to help them.
How does the U.S. citizen lift them up, and support them, and assist in recovery? There are very big problems that go unreported by the news media. The military is not going to hang dirty laundry in the public breeze.
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#136 David_Cunard,
Other than the Texas tragedy, no-one has touched on that in Florida. Rather than discuss religious matters surely this raises the issue of gun control, especially when it involves small arms - pistols and revolvers. No one can tell me that they're necessary for use in a militia.
Why would they not be necessary for militia? Pistols and revolvers are intended for personal defense and close combat.
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I was disappointed that the BBC World news said he purchased a gun. Failed to mention the shooter paid $1000 for a high powered gun called a "cop killer" gun because it shoots bullets that can pierce body armor.
Yes guns like that are legal in most states in the USA.
These guns are not for self protection or hunting they have a specific purpose maximum death count.
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As this conversation and the news coverage have evolved, the consensus seems to me to be that this is the pitiable act of one man, not some jihadist or Al Qaida conspiracy. His faith and heritage appear to have increased his burden, rather than inspiring his actions. He was able to kill so many because he was in a position of trust - being Muslim and of Middle Eastern origin and name were not held against him at all throughout his life and career, not at least in any official way.
It appears that only the most radicalized, marginalized sort will be able to make any claim that Islam or terrorists were responsible. After all, we know that too many of our soldiers resort to violence against themselves, their loved ones, or perfect strangers. It is one of the press' favorite themes.
We are left to ponder our failures to recognize and deal with stress, in our culture and in our institutions. He was an American soldier and officer - and really could have been any American soldier and officer.
I conclude that it is War itself that has changed in the last fifty years, and us along with it.
KScurmudgeon
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#142 publiusdetroit,
While I do not disagree with your point in general, I do wonder if it applies in this specific case. The man was not a combatant, has never been deployed, and was an Army psychiatrist. I'm also not aware of soldiers going on shooting sprees becuase of deployment stress.
There are reports that he calmly went about his day, bringing frozen foods to a neighbor, saying his good byes, only to "crack" under the pressure when in a crowded room with his fellow soldiers. He also went off base to purchase a hand gun, it's implied he did not use his given name and might have used a fake ID. All speculation at this point, but it is suspicious. While we should not rush to judgment, we should also not rush to hand out excuses for his actions. It could be your right. Then again, maybe not.
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What I find concerning is that people on this blog which I take as an accurate balance on the views of the US public, there is a lack of memory and knee-jerk reactions.
Can we get one thing clear, this was a senceless tragedy and 13 people are dead and many more are wounded and if they don't lose their lives they will be effected for the rest of them. We seem to be drifting from that point.
To repond to earlier postings, I must say I am appaled by some of the members here. We, I assume are all intellegent thoughtful individuals, so can we please stop jumping to conclusions. The shooters religion has nothing, NOTHING to do with this act of violence. Lets look at it objectively:
If he was a 'sleeper' doesn't it stike you as odd, that this looks so shambolic for someone that has planned this to the finite detail. With the weapons he chose and the fact that he's still alive? This guy wasn't a sleeper, he was a disaffected man who had a problem with going to a war zone. Many soldiers both american and british also have a problem with this, their scared and some have political motives to not want to go. This has happened to many soldiers what ever their religion. He obviously had a troubled mind. Any one who says that what he was wearing a shortime before the shooting is any sign of his motivations is very naive. The throab is religous clothing yes but like a suit is to a christian when going to church. There are reports that he went to a mosque regularly and someone on a previous comment on this blog, said this should be seen as 'radical' behaviour. This from a country where people go to church more so than any other western country. Where divinity plays a huge part in peoples political alligencies and influences policies on social issues, some would see this as 'radical'. What he was wearing, saying, or how regular his trips to a mosque were have no bearing on this tragedy.
There do however need to be questions asked and answered on the culture, issue. I don't think americans are more homicidal by nature I don't. We have to use precidence as evidence here.
Columbine shootings,
Virginia Tech,
Orlando Shooting, (yesterday)
Oklahoma bombings and Timothy McViegh
The thing that connects them to the shooting at Fort Hood, is guns. More precisely, legal purchase of firearms. And before anyone comments Timothy McVeigh we know had a facination with and a collection of many guns, although that wasn't his weapon of choise in his fateful action. America needs to look at its gun control. No other country has laws protecting its rights to 'bear arms'. On an asside it doesn't say that in the constitution anyway it qualifies it with 'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.' Now do you think that in 1791 when that was written they needed this law, Yes. Now, with a military and federal and state police forces and the lack of an invading force? No.
Anyway back to the main point, the ability to own a gun is upheld in the american phyche much more than the freedom to belive in what ever you want even though that is what the constitution is all about, freedom. What scares me the most about this whole debate about the shooting in Texas is that alot of people are consumed, and scapegoating what happened by the alleged killers religon and not his state of mind or his ability to get weaponry so easily. I understand this shooting hurts, and without wanting to offend any one who has suffered a tragedy, more so than any other because it is an attack on America itself, killing service men and women who are the life blood of America. Please don't let this action hurt what makes America the land of the free. Don't attack relgions of anyone else, even if his motivation was in the name of God, we shouldn't overlook that fact the other factors that led him to this.
In my humble and admitidly liberal opinion, gun contol should come in and people from outside would stop looking at this as part of the American culture. Do not throw away the protection of individual freedom to worship and live the way they want. America can live without guns, it can't live without life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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Religion has nothing to do with such senseless killings. Who committed masacare in Virginia Tech or bombing at Oklahoma City? We often hear grusome killing stories in America. All those killers happen to be of Christian faith. Hitler killed millions of people during WWII. Hitler was Christian. Would Jesus approve Hilter? Never. Same is true about Islam. People try to twist the meaning of Koran and misapply it. But true Islam never supports what people like Maj. Hasan did.
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Please do not blame any religion and don't use abusive languages. This guy named Maj. Hasan was obviously mentally sick. He has listened to mentally imbalanced solders back from Iraq. In the army, he was teased & mistreated because of his Islamic background. He was mentally depressed and crazy. He should have been given psychiatric treatment rather than being ordered to go to Iraq. We should not blame Islam because of such mad men as Maj. Hasan, whom I condem
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maj. hasan gave a lecture to other doctors at Walter Reed Medical Center that “really freaked them out"
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120162816
They, you know, dozens of medical staff come into an auditorium, and somebody stands at the podium at the front and gives a lecture about some academic issue, you know, what drugs to prescribe for what condition. But instead of that, he - Hasan apparently gave a long lecture on the Koran and talked about how if you don't believe, you are condemned to hell. Your head is cut off. You're set on fire. Burning oil is burned down your throat.
And I said to the psychiatrist, but this cold be a very interesting informational session, right? Where he's educating everybody about the Koran. He said but what disturbed everybody was that Hasan seemed to believe these things. And actually, a Muslim in the audience, a psychiatrist, raised his hand and said, excuse me. But I'm a Muslim and I do not believe these things in the Koran, and then I don't believe what you say the Koran says. And then Hasan didn't say, well, I'm just giving you one point of view. He basically just stared the guy down.
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150. At 07:07am on 07 Nov 2009, Ukicenine wrote:
What I find concerning is that people on this blog which I take as an accurate balance on the views of the US public, there is a lack of memory and knee-jerk reactions.......
To repond to earlier postings, I must say I am appaled by some of the members here. We, I assume are all intellegent thoughtful individuals, so can we please stop jumping to conclusions. The shooters religion has nothing, NOTHING to do with this act of violence. Lets look at it objectively:...........
_________________________
UKicenine - you talk about knee-jerk reactions, intelligence and thoughtfulness, but then you jump to the conclusion that it is the presence and availability of guns (must be your hobbyhorse) that is the problem, and that it is incorrect, even unfair to assume that guns are a part of American culture.
First, they area part of our culture, yes, even today and particularly in the rural parts of the county - which are vast and varied, if you haven't been here and experienced them. They are less a part of the culture in urban centers, or where the people have neither rural nor military roots. Several of my relatives and friends keep guns - some are farmers who use them to protect their livestock, to hunt and provide meat for their homes - often from their own land, and some who use them for sport. All of them are people I would consider intelligent and thoughtful, and that I suspect you would also at least until you learned they own weapons. None have ever shot anyone or even pointed a weapon at anyone, except perhaps those who have actively served overseas, and you will not find them talking about that.
Please understand that it is a part of the peaceable, decent elements of our culture - it always has been so. But this United States is made up of many kinds and parts - that is our motto, and it works precisely because we prefer not to prejudge each others cultures.
KScurmudgeon
not a gun owner, but then I live in town....
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" Was this the work of a lone madman? Or of a terrorist?"
Why do you repeat yourself, Mark?
If a Muslim shrink in question was a terrorist, he was by the same token a madman.
And as for his motivation...
If somebody methodically and efficiently shoots fellow soldiers after yelling "Allah uekber!" then obviously his action has had nothing to do with a "religion of peace", right?
Right.
As I am sure our Commander-in-Chief Barack Hussein Obama will confirm.
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It's time to stop speculating - even Mark Mardell.
Trying to outguess why something has happened does not make for intelligent comments.
To start suppossing reasons why, or even commenting on others who suppose they know the who, what, why, where, when and how Qs, might make good headlines but all it does is to encourage other idiots to make matters worse by supposing the worst of all scenarios.
No wonder real ordinary everyday Muslims are worried about a backlash that they are suppossed to be behind every attrocity committed by a single majority of 1?
If the whole world was to adopt that attitude, they rightly or wrongly, would place the modern world's problems at the foot of American foreign policy and that would be just as bad as blaming historical figures such as the Roman's attempts to rule the world or Richard the Lionheart's Crusades against the Moors and Saracens or Edward the 1st's attempts to eradicate the Scots or even Hitlers attempts to achieve world domination through Genicidal and Homicidal policies -not just against the Jews - but against any non-Arryan race or the mentally and physically defective.
Whatever his reasons for committing this atrocity, he has done extreme damage to the cause of people, the freedom to practice their Islamist faith, as well as any other faith, rather than procure an end to Middle East wars.
A tragedy far beyond the murder of these soldiers in Fort Hood!
Will they ever learn?
If I were to indulge in speculation, I would say that because of this and other extremist actions, it will be another thousand years before all the worlds different nations and nationalities get close to trusting each other!
And that is more tragic than any act of multiple homcide - whatever the circumstances.
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In the army, a psychiatrist, a Muslim who seemed increasingly empathic of followers of his faith, branded in this blog as a coward, an Islamic terrorist, an enemy of the US.
Clearly at the time of his decision to act he was "unhinged" by something. The pressure of his impending posting, perhaps. Years of living a lie, more likely. How many others, like him, live in the US, saddened by their country's inability to reason cogent decisions about what it does on its own soil as well as what it does abroad? How much of this is a warning to us all that we are not listening, we are not watching, we are not understanding what we are being told?
We can easily blame the man. It is far less easy to identify the real cause and begin to deal with it.
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Yes , Indeed it is horrific.Basic problem with Muslim Faith is they are not allowed to interprit Quran in any other way than that interpreted by there Maulavis , who do the same inorder to protect there own interest.This terrorism is nothing but collecting huge funds in the name of religion from masses. Use certain portion for the jobless people to train them and to carry out attacks . Keep rest of the money to so called chiefs of the terrorist organisation. Unless and untill civilised countries force the State Governments to act against such elements operating from there soil , this problem shalll exist.
I also feel that not enough is done to control flow of money to these terrorist organisation . I am sure if this money being generated through Drug Trafficking and through the oil producers is regulated the problem of terrorist will vanish.
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" Asked his nationality, he didn't identify himself as an American but as a Palestinian. "
Americans who Identify with theuir roots are pretty common. Plenty would say 'I'm Irish /Scottish" if I ask.
They assume I asked. What were your great great grandparents.
so this is not surprising.
Angel in transit.
Hope you arrive safe and sound, safe travels.
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47
"however I do believe that if he was a "deep cover sleeper" he could have been a bit more effective. It was hardly the product of 8 years sinister planning."
Stu rome.
I suspect people are too sensitive for me to lol this comment.But it is not a funny time and those times often produce some funny moments.
The charge of sleeper cell is one.
PS again some americans reactions are as sickening as the shooters.
I can see there are a lot of blood thirsty's out there.
were hats swapped would they be so innocent ?
"God damn you"
does this make most wife beaters religious zealots.
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"Basic problem with Muslim Faith is they are not allowed to interprit Quran in any other way than that interpreted by there Maulavis , who do the same inorder to protect there own interest."
Technically this is true - the individual is not allowed to make their own interpretations. However the various Imans etc have multitudinous interpretations of the koran, some of which are used by terrorists to recruit undereducated young people to terrorism.
Likewise there are many interpreations of the bible, which have in the past been used to inflict great suffering, but we do not judge all Christians by the most extreme version.
-----
"This terrorism is nothing but collecting huge funds in the name of religion from masses. Use certain portion for the jobless people to train them and to carry out attacks ."
This also spot on - and partly why fundamentalist Islamists want only religious education, to indoctrinate a new generation.
I am in agreement with the idea that this man was under enormous stress and that his strong religious beliefs exaccerbated that stress and that he snapped in the worst way.
He may have been a bit wierd in a religious way (the speech about hell), but then there are many Christians who believe similar things will happen to bad people in hell. However if he made these very public statements, given the current situation and zones of deployment, why did no one think to give him a psych review, or bring it to the attention of higher authorities? It not a justification, but it should be relevent.
The last thing we should be doing is linking Islam as a root cause of this tragedy, but we should see the man's faith as one of the factors in a complex pattern of mental breakdown.
On the subject of guns (and I'll not ride my hobbyhorse too hard, I promise), it is interesting to discover how few guns are in circulation on a domestic military base. He probably had to go off base to buy one because it was easier than trying to get past the quartermaster's office (or whoever keeps guns on a base).
This should be looked at by Americans in an objective way - soldiers, who are trained, cannot carry weapons on base, yet can anyone can get a gun at the drop of a hat down the road.I'll also assume that the base doesn't have high-school style metal detectors (we hope we can trust our soldiers).
All the evidence, of which there is little anyway, points to a disturbed man who went over the edge and had easy access to a means of mass murder.
Had he been a terrorist, and given that he was a reasonably senior officer, he would have been able to inflict far greater damage, and would have killed himself to achieve martyrdom.
He wasn't a terrorist but he is a mass murderer and should be prosecuted according to the law.
2 Last things - does anyone know - will he be tried in a military or civil court?
Does the military still execute soldiers?
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Simply being Muslim did not make this man a killer. Plenty of people, Muslims included, suffer work pressure and religious harassment without going on a killing spree so that's not it either. Access to firearms certainly helps facilitate a killing spree but is not a cause in itself.
The US army made him a killer first by basic training and then by not dealing with an employee who was clearly at odds with the organisations purpose.
As a Psychologist we have to assume that he would be aware of the wider consequences in society IF he was thinking rationally but this was not a rational act. This was the act of a desperate man consumed by his own circumstances whose professional training could not even assist him in finding a way to peacefully resolve his internal conflicts of interest. His superiors would have been well aware of his 'issues' and should have taken steps to ensure his continued productive service or removed him from that service. Without the 'trigger' of deployment this clearly would not have happened. Was the harassment he was receiving from above? Was the deployment some form of ultimatum from his commanding officer to prove his loyalties or was it a random posting which was not sensitive to his particular circumstances?
In any case the US army created the circumstances and he made his choice how to respond.
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ref #161 2 Last things - does anyone know - will he be tried in a military or civil court?
Does the military still execute soldiers?
_________________________________
As the Major was in the military and these action were on a military base , I believe it would be a military trial.
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Can muslims be integrated into american society ? Can they be loyal to their country, the US ?
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"In any case the US army created the circumstances"
By admitting him into its ranks and tolerating him there for so long.
"The US army made him a killer..."
By training him as a psychiatrist and allowing him to practice his trade.
At least we now know who's responsible and why.
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165 gherky
you miss-leading pickle you.
"The US army made him a killer first by basic training and then by not dealing with an employee who was clearly at odds with the organisations purpose. "
You make up his sentence when he already supplied you with the end.
"not dealing with an employee who was clearly at odds with the organisations purpose"
NOT "By training him as a psychiatrist and allowing him to practice his trade"
They were very clear. you are just looking too hard again.
watch it. you get close enough it might get you.
164 DAN is that racism dressed as a question or are you genuinely interested in integration.
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Ref 161, RomeStu
Since the crime was carried out in a military base and everyone involved was in the military I suspect Major Nidal Malik Hasan will be court martialed and sentenced in accordance with military code. I'll be surprised if his sentence is consistent with precedent.
An example that is not likely to repeat itself in this case is that of Lt. Calley, the officer tried for the My Lai slaughter of as many as 400 Vietnamese civilians, raping women, and burning the village down to the ground in 1971. He was sentenced to life imprisonment at hard labor. After several reviews, Lt. Calley's life sentence was reduced to ten years, and he was granted parole in 1974. Maj. Hasan is not going to be as fortunate.
In a general court-martial, the maximum punishment set for each offense under the Manual for Courts-Martial may include death.
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164. Dan wrote:
"Can muslims be integrated into american society ? Can they be loyal to their country, the US ?"
I believe you'll find millions of muslims well integrated into American society ..... in fact in alot of ways American muslims are better integrated than in Europe.....
..... or under your tinfoil hat do you believe that this was the signal for millions of sleeper agents to rise up and wreak havoc on the USA?
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Ref 164, Dan
"Can muslims be integrated into american society ? Can they be loyal to their country, the US ?"
Muslims, like members of all other religions, are integrated in our society and live among us like everyone else. Trying to blame an entire religious congregation or culture for the crimes of one man is wrong and does not make sense.
If found guilty, which he will obviously be, he will be sentenced and will either be executed or spend the rest of his life in prison. It is premature - and wrong - to blame an entire culture and engage in conspiracy theories without evidence.
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Mark, I agree with your assessment that this incident appears as a senseless tragedy. The "drive-by" media throw tidbits in order to inflame passions and increase viewership and advertising. I will wait until the investigation is complete to make a judgment. My heartfelt sympathies to all the families who have been touched by this tragedy. they seem to have been forgotten in all this.
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To Dan #164:
Can Fox News viewers be integrated into american society? Can they be loyal to their country, the US ?
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No, it's not a senseless tradjedy, it is part of the Islamic war on our civilization. When will we have the sense to root out this evil that has taken root in our society?
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74
(gherky check 69 ' I' mentioned)
ex beeboid.
I see that you are a supporter of the BNP.(click his name and read)
taking that into context I would suggest that your comment was coming from a place of deep ignorance more so than concern with the people bombed-By our Allies the saudi's.
You also condemn Israel's over-reaction whenever they get hit as well I assume.
You use Muslim on Muslim violence as an excuse at a time like this to try to inflate the hate.
And then you say others are sick
104 LOL Stu.
I think he has been hiding from the hiding he got earlier this week for being a misogynist .
so off he runs to kick others castles over at the other end of the beach. Blanch will be so displeased.
82 illinoisn
"Nadal, needs to be tried for not only murder and attempted murder, but also for treason, due to his statements against our country."
so no free speech then?
Treason is starting wars so you can make some money laterespecially if it leads to thousands of american deaths.
But then those that don't have a gun in their hand are innocent right.
Welcome to the mafia.
"franky. waste him!"
" If he wanted out of the army, all he had to do was tell people he was gay"
so you think he should be as dishonest as you and if he had gone ballistic and had made such a comment now there would not be a single gay muslim left in the states.
that is too tempting a fish for the right wing racist homophobic idiots out there.
frankly I find it funny I am rude but you say such offensive stuff as this.
It is offensive to all parties gays, muslims and the guy.
"death penalty"
Typical american.
"91. At 11:08pm on 06 Nov 2009, Illinoisan wrote:
We are not like the Scottish. Americans have no empathy for terrorists and murderers. We want to take them all out."
no most Scottish are decent folk.
86 les.
you don't mention the mathew shepard killing at all times. or the couple of ladies in medford dragged behind a pickup truck till they died by some "good folk" because they though that unchristian
them christian folk.
really there is little difference between back woods justice and taliban justice.
Your examples are shocking and disgusting. but america didn't give a flying one about them until AQ attacked the states.
historical fact.;)
93. At 11:10pm on 06 Nov 2009, Lesinge1961 wrote:
Sadly it seems that whilst most of the world is trying to move forward one area is constantly moving backwards as fast as possible to the dark ages. Of course we wouldn't mind but it wastes so much of the rest of the worlds time - like having a stroppy teenager in your team.
Yea like having the states on your side right.
the world was trying to move forward and america is saying "evolution will cause a revolution"
and then ignore the planet because they are "dominant"
some of your other comments seem to show you have a profound disregard for muslims.
" their faith has kept them back wards"
nothing to do with us keeping them backwards and destroying democracies that emerged in the area.
I don't think you are being very up front with us but I do think you learn all the pc ways of saying what you can get away with.
Just as the colonel.
illinoisan.
every one of your comments is a racist rant and should be taken off the blog.
continual calls for reaction etc are what they are.
moderators should look at your posts and then remove them .
sometimes you try to make sense but here you are too emotional and you prejudice (death now to all) are slipping out for all to see.
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172. CDNBobOrr wrote:
"No, it's not a senseless tradjedy, it is part of the Islamic war on our civilization. When will we have the sense to root out this evil that has taken root in our society?"
Words fail me.
Goodbye for now.
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171 lol NO.
Ag42.
agreed. so far I have commented on the reaction of other posters for a reason.
we know nothing.
but I can see that that is unimportant and the excuse to be a racist is strong enough for the reserved americans to let it 'hang out'
I know nothing about the shooter but I do know some about some posters.
colonel may be annoying but so are the other posters like les that seem to be skirting their prejudice.
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stu same here.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
How people get their knickers in a twist trying to look for the 'root causes' and the deeper, more complex understanding of matters!!
It's so simple.
A Muslim who identifies as Muslim first, American last, who praises sucide bombing and openly calls for terrorist attacks against America gets a gun and shoots Americans while shouting 'Allah Alakba'
Sometimes a cigar really is a cigar.
This is a case of a Muslim, motivated by his warped and aggressive religion, attacking non Muslims.
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95. At 11:14pm on 06 Nov 2009, RomeStu wrote:
82. Illinoisan wrote:
"'This is clearly an act of Muslim/Islam terrorism perpetrated against our country.'
This is not "clearly" anything of the sort. You are seriously jumping the gun, and fuelling the ever-present knee-jerk reaction squard.
You may be right in the long run, but as the president said 'Don't jump to conclusions'
'I absolutely believe that he should be executed.'"
Well God bless your little christian heart.!
You may get your wish given the state it occurred in."
RomeStu,
I agree with your points and President Obama's, but technically this incident did not happen in Texas, it happened on Federal property, the Fort Hood Military Base. The laws of the State of Texas will not apply. While the Federal /military laws that apply do contain the death penalty, it is much less likely to be applied than it would be in Texas.
We should all beware of prejudicial stereotyping. People like Illinoisian are venting in what appears to be a nonthinking emotional state. Timothy McVey killed more fellow Americans, but if the name means he is Irish Catholic why should people not have rushed to assume he was an IRA terrorist, why not have investigated all Irish Catholics?
To be fair, there is a difference. There is no known case of IRA or other Catholic groups committing or planning to commit murder or mass murder against Americans on American soil. This can not be said of Muslims. There is no research showing that the Irish Catholic American community is divided between thoise hostile to the US government and those leaning toward supporting it. This has been alleged about the US Muslim community on this very site.
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154. At 07:58am on 07 Nov 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:
_________________________
UKicenine - you talk about knee-jerk reactions, intelligence and thoughtfulness, but then you jump to the conclusion that it is the presence and availability of guns (must be your hobbyhorse) that is the problem, and that it is incorrect, even unfair to assume that guns are a part of American culture.
First, they area part of our culture, yes,
-----------------------------------------------
I think you have a point about my post. I have come across with a knee jerk reaction to this incident but I don't belive overall.
I do know the US quite well, having travelled and studied there for 3 years. I know many people especially in Georgia, and many of them have guns and they are all emminently sensible people. Please let me say this. I did not say anywhere in my comment that their should be a complete Gun Ban, for one it would be incredibly hard to enforce and unnessecary. What I am calling for in Gun Control. Where it will be legal to carry a rifle or shotgun to protect livestock or even your property, I dare say. On the other hand it should not be allowed to own assult rifles or grenade launchers, what are you hunting? Also there should not be avaliability in some states such as Texas licences to carry concealed firearms. It just is unnessecary.
And in relation to the subject in question I would just like people to look for reasons behind his madness other than his religous beliefs and that some people in America, i've met these people, beleive that Muslims are conducting an entrist 'soft' jihad. Its just not true. I want to urge people to look at this as an act of a madman with serious underlying health issues and should concern themselves with how he was able to do this and to prevent it from happening again.
I think, again in my opinion, people should hold and protect what is so great about America and that is its pluralism, that America wouldn't be America without its acceptance of other ideas and throughts and BELIEFS. E Pluribus Unum, from many, one. And from your posting we agree on that.
I agree that my previous posting did look and read as if I was on my 'hobbyhorse' but I would rather lose guns, than freedom of speech, thought and worship.
We shouldn't attack Muslims we should rally round Muslims and say they are our brothers and they are as American, British, French or Italian as any of us. I bet if you asked his family what they were, they would say American Muslims. And ask them is their life better living in the US than in their parents Palestine, I know what their answer would be.
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Ref 178,
"A Muslim who identifies as Muslim first, American last..."
You are mixing religion with nationality. Many Americans put their God and religion above everything else, that does not make them less Americans than an atheist or an agnostic. You embrace or reject religion because of spiritual beliefs or lack thereof, you are an American because you were born in the USA or became a naturalized citizen.
If you want to compare the behavior of members of a specific religion to that of members of another religion that's fine, but it doesn't make sense to equate it to nationality which, in our case, encompasses many religious denominations as well as non-religious people.
I have no sympathy for this man and hope he is found guilty and charged in accordance with our military code of conduct, but trying to blame an entire culture or religion for the behavior of one person is wrong. Our tendency to generalize, exaggerate, apply collective punishment for the actions of a few, and disregard the sovereignty and rights and aspirations of other cultures is one of the root causes for the problems we are experiencing.
When Timothy McVeigh bombed and killed hundreds of people in Oklahoma City we didn't ask for the extermination of members of his religious denomination. We should do the same in this case. McVeigh carried out his crime because he wanted to punish the government of the USA, Nidal Hasan did it because he felt our activities in the Persian Gulf are an affront to his religion and culture; in both cases issues that most people would be able to rationalize and discuss calmly resulted in tragedies uncharacteristic to civilized societies.
Let's not allow our cultural and ethnic prejudices make the problem worse than it already is.
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136. At 02:34am on 07 Nov 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
"Other than the Texas tragedy, no-one has touched on that in Florida. Rather than discuss religious matters surely this raises the issue of gun control, especially when it involves small arms - pistols and revolvers. No one can tell me that they're necessary for use in a militia."
Interesting point, and I was wondering why no one had made it on this thread as yet. [For reasons of full disclosure] I favor gun control but not outright prohibition. I live in the state with the highest level of gun control, steadily getting higher. My brother moved himself, his family and his arsenal to New Hampshire as a result.
There are valid reasons for tolerating possession of firearms by civilians in addition to the constitutional protection. The main one is self-protection in a country where it is indisputable that any criminal or lunatic can get one [illegally, if not legally].
The most reasonable counter to gun prohibition that I have seen is the comparison of annual slaughter by guns vs by vehicle in the US. Admitting the difficulty of running over someone on the 2nd floor of a building, it is obvious that restricting or abolishing the right of civilians to drive cars would save more lives per year than abolishing the right to guns. I do favor stricter controls on both, however.
How many Canadians and Britons die every year related to vehicles? Of those how many involve alcohol? Does anyone seriously suggest abolishing either private vehicles or alcohol consumption as a cure?
The US tried the latter in the 1920's, and the cure was worse than the problem.
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180 mc J
" There is no known case of IRA or other Catholic groups committing or planning to commit murder or mass murder against Americans on American soil. This can not be said of Muslims. There is no research showing that the Irish Catholic American community is divided between thoise hostile to the US government and those leaning toward supporting it. "
UM.
The IRA is a catholic organisation that was funded not just by Libya but also by the USA.
If they had attacked the USA their support and financing would have evaporated.
Maybe there were some loyalist plans to get someone in the USA, I do not know.
but there were IRA plans to kill in the USA.
there was a plot in the 80's to blow up a diplomat from the UK .hatched out of Idaho.
FBI stopped it pretty early in planning.
"known case"
Not all cases are known, but they did happen.
"there is no research..."
No there wouldn't be would there. the Catholics were not against each other. they were against Protestants.
and as pointed out above had a real interest in not pissing off the americans.
Did get one at Harrods didn't they?
Oh america didn't give up the stupid prohibition in the 20's.. they still have it.
this time a plant involved.
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182 well said Dom.
181 ukicenine
nice post.
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ref #166
Fluff brain just like Randi Rose you are already making the govt and the military the criminal. Hasan never served overseas, could not read the Koran in arabic and refered to himself untill recently as an American.
I have not accused him of being a terrorist because unlike you I want to see the facts.
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186 gherkin. I know you are that dense so I won't ask if you are.
(I'm not)
"you are already making the govt and the military the criminal."
you are already lying through our teeth.
I have not commented on them for a reason.
what's more I explained I was commenting on others comments for a reason. that reason being insufficient information.
Also I never called him a terrorist either.
so stop pretending you can think for yourself.
And mods. he came here and totally fabricated his interpretation of others comments again.
clearly making it up as he went along. As he continually does.
either he should be sent to remedial school or you should allow comments of defence to stand when you allow such baseless postings.;)
See John it is not his spelling I worry about but that old comprehension thing.
There I was picking on him for misrepresenting what another poster had said and off he goes again.
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Gherkin. I cannot believe that you just said that Israel has no right to exist!
What is more saying that America has no right to educate their children is just plain silly.
Now I suppose the mods will edit out my reply to you.
;)
we are at the stage now where we just make up our owncomments and ignore what is infront of our faces.
WELCOME TO "GHERKYWORLD"
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colonelartist says
"its the non muslims who are waging a don quixote war against islam.
Muslims are simply fighting against oppression."
Depending on whether Shias are considered Muslims (some Sunnis do not consider Shias as Muslims, thus Iran sucking up to them) the following list may be subject to interpretation.
Following is the (partial)list of non-muslims fighting muslims
1. China against Uighurs (Asia)
2. Russia against "Checehn Islamic terrorists"
3. US/EU against Afg/Iraq (North America, Europe)
4. Jews against palestians for centuries (Asia)
5. Catholics in Philippines
6. Ethnic Chinese against Muslim radicals in Malaysia/Indonesia
7. Buddists in Thailand
8. Hindus in India
9. Animists/Christians in Africa (Eg: Egypt, Sudan)
10. Shias against Muslims in multiple places
11. Apart from these there is mutual friction/suspicion between muslims and non-muslims through our the world (mostly in US, Europe, Australia, Russia, China, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, India)
If I have problem with every neighbor I have ever lived with, I would look into myself and see if something is wrong with me or my ideology (Only continent not included is South America, which I do not have much information about).
Prof. Samuel Huntington in The Clash aptly says "Islam has bloody borders".
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Another thread run to "the problem with Islam" topic, but without clear thinking on the matter. Well, how about this: Everyone [even in America] has heard about "American Exceptionalism." While most liberal and Politically Correct folks deride it, some Americans, especially the "Neocons" embrace it. Check the definition of the terms.
I propose that "Islamic Exceptionalism" (c) exists and that it possesses some of the same troublesome characteristics as "American Exceptionalism" including the fact that not all members of the group to which the label is applied actually agree with it.
Christianity used to claim that it was the sole true religion [though most denominations do not currently do so], while there is no scriptural basis for it. Christians persecuted members of other religions as well as "heretical" and "apostate" Christians, again with no direct scriptural justification, and no Christian denomination does so currently.
Islam makes the following claims: Mohammad is the Seal of the Prophets, his revelation supercedes all previously acceptable ones. Islam is the one true religion, all others are false, heretical or in error. It is the duty of Islam to convert others. The value of 1 Muslim equals the value of ten non-Muslims in law, etc.
Islamic practice [as opposed to a reasonable view of what the Prophet's actual actions and words were] includes prohibiting all criticism of Islam by anyone while reserving the right to criticize others. Demanding equal rights in other countries while prohibiting equal rights of non-Muslims in Muslim countries, etc. The claims made in the name of Islam are written in the Koran and are also justified by some readings of the Sunna.
What Islam demands from others is at variance with what Islam concedes to others. Islam is also unwilling to admit to its inconsistencies, to accept blame for its actions, or to change those beliefs and actions. I do not assume that all Muslims adhere in total to these beliefs nor that they behave in the same way, any more than all Christians can be said to believe or behave identically. However, I have never met a Muslim who would deny any of the beliefs mentioned above, though quite a few don't subscribe to the prejudicial actions.
The point of this is, while we should not assume that the killer commited this act because of or in compliance with Islamic doctrine, neither should we prematurely exclude the possibility, and, as a matter of political correctness, blind ourselves to the very real dangers posed by "Islamic Exceptionalism"(c).
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REF 143.
1. Their refusal to condemn those who use Islam to conduct terrorism.
You can’t exactly say that moderate Muslims are failing to stop or attack those who use Islam to carry out terrorism. In Kuwait there had been many arrests to suspected terrorists and terrorists groups over that past years which if not stop they could have done something. Many people are underestimating the brain, which are behind terrorism. Those organization are much more smarter than anyone thinks, they start brain washing kids from a young age, to develop them into terrorists or political leaders. They use phrases from the Quran and interpret it as a call for terrorism which is not, for example if some one tell you “I hate you” you may interpret it in many way like I stopped liking you, I hate you for saying that, I hate you I am going to kill you or I hate you as joke like your so bad.
Also the so-called Islamist group Taliban are involved in activities which Islam and the Quran rejects, to name a few Drug usage and dealing, homosexual acts and so on.
2. Too make peace with Israel or have normal dipomatic relations when Israel has never had conflict. Forget your religion and make peace with the peaceful size not people who chose to be ruled by terrorists What is your reply to that?
Making peace in Palestine is a different issue, here you have a government which has not power over it people and it pursuing it private interest and there is no unity between the political groups. I believe that there would not be peace in Palestine until there is unity between Palestinians and more compromises from the Israeli side too.
Jerusalem is an important place for three religions Muslims, Christians and Judaism. You can have peace when you reject people from praying in their temples, churches or mosques. When you give all people the freedom without restricting any to practice their religion this will be a huge step toward peace.
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To pkkmres #189
"If I have problem with every..."
This suggests that it is a one-sided process. In cases 1-10, which would you class as "mutual friction" and which would be one-sided?
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Here is a survey of American Muslims:
A wealth of data accumulated over the past decade on the Muslim men involved in terror plots point to a common theme: invariable they were all mosque-going Muslims. (remember most terrorists go to mosques does not mean most mosque goers are terrorists, i.e. its a statement for induction not deduction)
A recent report released by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) claims that 76% of the Muslim men in America are mosque-going.
An April 2001 survey by CAIR found 69% of Muslims in America saying it is “absolutely fundamental” or “very important” to have Salafi (similar to Wahhabi) teachings at their mosques (67% of respondents also expressed agreement with the statement “America is an immoral, corrupt society”). There was another poll conducted in Detroit area mosques in 2003. In this poll, 81% of the respondents endorsed the application of the medieval sharia in Muslim-majority lands.
It appears that about 70% of the mosque-going American Muslim men identify with radical ideologies. Marrying this data with 76% of the men who attend mosques, about 54% of the American Muslim men identify with radical ideologies.
If army has same proportions of radicalized muslims they many have more Nidal Hasans in waiting.
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To #193 pkkmres
Have you any statistical breakdown by religion, of terrorist acts (as defined in wikipedia) over the past 50 years?
On a lighter note, I personally have always been suspicious of all joggers because they keep finding dead bodies!
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190 Mc J
time to plat the name change game
"includes prohibiting all criticism of Islam by anyone while reserving the right to criticize others. "
ncludes prohibiting all criticism of Israel by anyone while reserving the right to criticize others.
"Islam is the one true religion, all others are false, heretical or in error. "
jewish hardcores seem to think the same. and of course the christians gave up with that sort of thought(except in the USA)
"What Islam demands from others is at variance with what Islam concedes to others"
What Israel demands from others is at variance with what Israel concedes to others
"The claims made in the name of Islam are written in the Koran"
The claims made in the name of Israel are written in the Torah.
Just to point out that most of your criticism includes Islam but forgets the parallels or overlay with the Israel and maybe Judaism.
And the Historical christians after all no one would claim supremacy now in this day and age.?;)
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Good Heavens, Y'all are wandering off the main point...Islam, indeed! I'm wading in here -- a little late -- but with some other thoughts than the fringy, frenzied Right-wingnut effort to make the tragedy at Ft. Hood out to be an Al Queda conspiracy.
Has ANYONE noticed the follow-on news about other shootings? In Florida, on the base at (time for the vapors) Fort Bragg in NC, in Kentucky, AND a British tourist shot dead in a bar in Texas?!?!?!
At the risk of having my persona as Southern gentlewoman revoked, the root problem here is the ready availability of, and the legal permission to carry concealed, automatic weaponry more powerful than what police carry and that uses "armor-piercing" ammunition. Major Hasan bought his semi-automatic pistol LEGALLY at an off-base gunshop -- it was NOT a military weapon. Supposing he lives, he could be in deep doo-doo just for bringing it on post without the proper authorization.
I recognize that messing with the cherished Texas tradition of shooting anyone that "needs killin'" is liable to rush me to the top of that list if I ever again step foot in the state, but dear hearts and gentle people, the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America was written in 1790 and we have both a more complex society and MUCH more accurate and powerful weaponry now than we had then. The Founding Fathers allowed for amending the Constitution precisely BECAUSE they recognized that it was a living document and that times would change.
Let's recognize that goofballs, madmen, fanatics and disgruntled employees can be of ANY religion or ethnic background. They can be PTSD sufferers, survivalists, drug users, polygamists or postal workers...but they ALL HAVE GUNS. The weapons are the thread that ties these tragedies together, not belief, not religion or the color of their skin.
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194 I'm suspicious of all americans , but maybe that's just sensible.
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If that's the case, then suicide bombing, also known as spitting on the Koran by killing non-combatants, is a cultural aberration of Islam. So if you'll agree that suicide bombing is an aberration within Islamic culture, I'll accept that mass shootings are an aberrant form of behavior for Americans.
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Americans go on a shooting spree in the times of peace..thats their culture since the times of the wild wild west..You can compare suicide bombing to the unmanned drones...
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Depending on whether Shias are considered Muslims (some Sunnis do not consider Shias as Muslims, thus Iran sucking up to them) the following list may be subject to interpretation.
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The guy acted according to his culture, upset and went on a shooting spree..and what people are enganged in: their don quoxte war against islam....BLame the american culture, the incompetent army officers who didnt do anything to get this guy...and the wild wild west on which american culture is based on..
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ref #191
Making peace in Palestine is a different issue, here you have a government which has not power over it people and it pursuing it private interest and there is no unity between the political groups. I believe that there would not be peace in Palestine until there is unity between Palestinians and more compromises from the Israeli side too.
Jerusalem is an important place for three religions Muslims, Christians and Judaism. You can have peace when you reject people from praying in their temples, churches or mosques. When you give all people the freedom without restricting any to practice their religion this will be a huge step toward peace.
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You did not answer the question. the gulf states have had no armed conflict with Israel for at least 40 years. yet they refuse to sit at the table without all their preconditions met first. Did Abdullah conedm Hezbollah and call for war crimes investigation of the Lebanese?
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When Timothy McVeigh bombed and killed hundreds of people in Oklahoma City we didn't ask for the extermination of members of his religious denomination. We should do the same in this case.
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And obviously you dont know anything about FBI and CIA forcing a plane to turn back to usa in which who they thought the muslim bomber was flying out...this was before this all rounder american McVeigh also a military soldier was caught...American military has lots of angry young men, and they send them to iraq and afghanistan and then complain they cannot win a war.
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pkk 193
" (67% of respondents also expressed agreement with the statement “America is an immoral, corrupt society”)"
I wonder how many church-going christians would say the same. I bet it's close.
Maybe it's true!
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ref 195"Islam is the one true religion, all others are false, heretical or in error. "
jewish hardcores seem to think the same. and of course the christians gave up with that sort of thought(except in the USA)
"What Islam demands from others is at variance with what Islam concedes to others"
What Israel demands from others is at variance with what Israel concedes to others
"The claims made in the name of Islam are written in the Koran"
The claims made in the name of Israel are written in the Torah.
Just to point out that most of your criticism includes Islam but forgets the parallels or overlay with the Israel and maybe Judaism.
And the Historical christians after all no one would claim supremacy now in this day and age.?;)
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Fluff brain this is ignorant even for you. Israel and Jews do not force people to convert not would a Jew who convetrted to another or no faith be killed.
Israel unlike Hamas and Hezbollah has never committed terrorist attacks it is a soviergn nation which is one of the most progressive in the world.
You obvious have a problem with a country whose majority is Jewish. I wonder why?
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marko,
Different eras have different problems. I want my freedom which is promised only in the West, where it is receding. Fight against terrorists usually includes fight against totalitarianism, used to be communism for a while where Islam was pitted against communists by the West, the West never realizing that they were creating a larger problem than they were solving. Also fueling the extremism is the money(oil) being dug out of Middle east. When people do not know what it means to work(in a technology driven world while living in such a world) to make a living the resulting society may not stand for freedom.
So irrespective 50 years of terrorist statistics I want to point out the current problem, which lied dormant for a while in between and is out in all its glory. It's just history repeating itself.
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193 pkk
"It appears that about 70% of the mosque-going American Muslim men identify with radical ideologies. Marrying this data with 76% of the men who attend mosques, about 54% of the American Muslim men identify with radical ideologies.
If army has same proportions of radicalized muslims they many have more Nidal Hasans in waiting."
This is the falsest of logic.
You have drawn inferences from a set of statistics that prove nothing of the sort. You see what you want to see.
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196 carolina lady
"Has ANYONE noticed the follow-on news about other shootings? In Florida, on the base at (time for the vapors) Fort Bragg in NC, in Kentucky, AND a British tourist shot dead in a bar in Texas?!?!?!"
Well, that proves it - the muslims are rising up to wipe out the USA (and British tourists) ..... what .... really .... the others weren't muslim ..... they were "real" Americans. Well hush ma mouth!
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fluffytale (195),
I am with you in the name change game. Only point is that Israel consists of few million people among which there may be some percentage of radicals.
But there are a billion Muslims with a higher percentage of radicals (according to surveys, if you want I can provide the results of such surveys, I just provided one in this blog). So I know which is a clear and present danger going just by numbers.
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as with all tragedies, the americans make them way worse.
Gherky
you never answer a question and then expect people to answer the rubbish you ask.
Has America done the same.
see when one is getting picked on, when the bullied becomes the bully.
it is possible that others may stand back and say "let him get hit".
Then there could be the FACT that Israel has seemed to kill enough people to stop any sane person supporting their actions.
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Sorry to bust your numbers, colonelartist
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/10/analysis_us_airstrik.php
Disproportionately high people killed in drone attacks are Taliban/AQ. Of course if your ideology is similar to those of that killed (Taliban/AQ) I can understand your outrage.
Besides a business deal is a business deal, the one between Pakistani Government and US. Actually some of the targets were chosen by Pak government. Pak govt is essentially bankrupt(monetary, no foreign exchange left, Chinese turned down, even the Masters Saudis turned them down). So if they want to protest the strikes, first they would deny the US aid.
You can't have it both ways.
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Israel unlike Hamas and Hezbollah has never committed terrorist attacks it is a soviergn nation which is one of the most progressive in the world.
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Who needs to commit low level so called terrorist attacks when it is free to commit the extreme terrorism in form of occupation.
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Ref 200
Let just make one thing clear when you stat Middle Eastern countries you should distinguish between Governments and people living there. In my opinion our leaders are just talk and many would share my view. We are more than 20 countries with same religion and similarities in culture and we have are differences. Most governments are dictatorship in one way or another. Leaders lead to their self interests not for the interests of its nation. We have two types of leaders one who reject whatever is done by the west just for the sake of rejection and one will do whatever is ordered to him by the west just to stay on their good side even if it will hurt its nation.
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Ref 196, CarolinaLady
"I recognize that messing with the cherished Texas tradition of shooting anyone that "needs killin'" is liable to rush me to the top of that list if I ever again step foot in the state, but dear hearts and gentle people, the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America was written in 1790 and we have both a more complex society and MUCH more accurate and powerful weaponry now than we had then. The Founding Fathers allowed for amending the Constitution precisely BECAUSE they recognized that it was a living document and that times would change."
Amen to that!
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RomeStu, 205
If you want to fight numbers, be my guest.
It would be nice of you to point of why/where/how my logic is "falsest". I just used law of probability/statistics, a branch of Math. If you want to know the equation I can post them and explain them. Apparently "you see what you want to see" applies to you since you are the one fighting numbers, not me.
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colonelartist 210,
Israel has to be blamed for something, but history is not as clear about "occupation" as you portray.
Jews have live there for millinea, much before Islam was founded. During world war II they bought much of the land legally (and expanded illegally later on). If they are guilty of something that is of expansion, not of "occupation".
But they are not out to proselytize/kill all non-Jews, so personally I am least worried about them. To me, immediate threat comes from cultures that forbid freedom (e.g: no freedom of speech, no criticism of religion, no religious freedom, Diyyat laws, horrible punishments for trivial crimes).
See horrible state sponsored discrimination here (on the lines of racism, slavery):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyya
A muslim man is worth 100,000 riyals while a hindu woman costs 3333 riyals. A christian woman worth 25,000 riyals. All according to Sharia, followed (partially or fully) in Pakistan(land of pure), Iran, Saudi(heaven).
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ref #210
colonelartist wrote:
Israel unlike Hamas and Hezbollah has never committed terrorist attacks it is a soviergn nation which is one of the most progressive in the world.
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Who needs to commit low level so called terrorist attacks when it is free to commit the extreme terrorism in form of occupation.
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First occuptation is not terrorism. Israel won the lands the Palestinian claim when Israel was attacked in 48 and 67. Those are facts.
Israel has no choice to restrict travel through Israel because any Palestinian leadership and by extension the people have proven untrustworthy.
The Palestinians have only themselves and fellow Arab states for their misery.
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Israel has to be blamed for something, but history is not as clear about "occupation" as you portray.
Jews have live there for millinea, much before Islam was founded. During world war II they bought much of the land legally (and expanded illegally later on). If they are guilty of something that is of expansion, not of "occupation".
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Jews could have lived there since the times of Adam and before..At this age and period in which you and I live, Its occupation..
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First occuptation is not terrorism. Israel won the lands the Palestinian claim when Israel was attacked in 48 and 67. Those are facts.
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occupation is worse than terrorism, as it breeds terrorism. its the most disgusting thing.
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In response to comments about basic training turning someone into a murder I would just like to comment that I went thru the US Army's Basic Training and am far from a murderer. In fact, I almost blew myself up with a grenade on the range and was told I would be better off trying to club someone to death with the M16 because my aim was so bad. If I went on a killing rampage I'd probably only end up shooting myself even after basic training and a few follow-up trainings at the range. Luckily, I've never wanted to go on a shooting spree so I'm safe from the threat of shooting myself.
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A muslim man is worth 100,000 riyals while a hindu woman costs 3333 riyals. A christian woman worth 25,000 riyals. All according to Sharia, followed (partially or fully) in Pakistan(land of pure), Iran, Saudi(heaven).
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This obbession with women and the slogans raised by americans and their western allies of the F word when they attack, makes those who fight in the name of Allah, think that the west is waging a war for sexual purposes..
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203 I have a problem with that country because they act like a bunch vengeful murderous thugs,As a nation, that is.
You can call it anti semitism if you like, but all the changes I made can be seen to be as correct as the other statements against Islam. I notice you have NO objection to those.
Deal with the content not your fantasy.
Simple.
You bring up nothing new gherkin
You think that the torah says. Go worship other religions?
Bog off and come back with a real point one day.
""What Islam demands from others is at variance with what Israel concedes to others""
Israel asks for recognition that it will not give to those it asks from.
"The claims made in the name of Israel are written in the Torah."
Israel's very foundation (not amcient history) was based on the Torah claim that it is the promised land. Disputing this?
And those on the right in Israel certainly feel they are religiously superior.
they also force people to convert to Judaism to get married sometimes.
You can shout anti semite all you like. You are a big hairy fibber.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Israel unlike Hamas and Hezbollah has never committed terrorist attacks it is a soviergn nation which is one of the most progressive in the world."
again the bit about accusing others without taking it, seems appropriate, but then there is the issue that you LIE.
I know you know enough to KNOW this is a lie.
a big stinking lie.
Israel was only created because of the terrorism that drove others from the land.
Again the BBC will allow you to keep repeating such inaccurate lies, but it doesn't make you any smarter.
try telling the truth just once in your day. It is really boring debating with a lying ack who makes everything up.
Back to making things up
I can't believe that you really said that polar bears are the most dangerous thing america faces.
How dare you say that american mums eat their kids. And that bit about their fathers all being catholic priests is preposterous.
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Israel was only created because of the terrorism that drove others from the land.
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Isreal was created without any logical reasoning only because of jewish religious teachings..Otherwise logic says that when the oppressors are defeated and in a way Hitler and his nazi army was defeated, jews were no longer threatened.But looking at the presence performance of those countries who were at the forefront of creating israel,the creation of israel was as illogical and based on false premises as war in iraq , afghanistan and the hidden war in pakistan.
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"You obvious have a problem with a country whose majority is Jewish. I wonder why?"
so many time peopel try to tell me it is not a jewish state.
but every time there is talk of single state the Israelis cry "no we will no longer be a jewish state"
The insistence and fear that that majority will be lost if left to natural means is what has sparked so much of the Israel response to the peace process.
Just how can they rig it so that there will always be a jewish majority in Isreal and then claim try to claim to be a secular and progressive state.
But I know you can't see the humour in that.
pkk.
can you tell me when Muslims started getting all terrorist?
was i t when we said to another bunch of terrorists "here you go have their land?"
You can have a huge bonfire , mountain of wood. and it doesn't burn.
It takes a flame. or a smoulder in an oxygen rich environment.
It is not a fire at all.
just a pile of wood.
Strike a match and you can easily have a burning mass.
increase the oxygen and drop a smouldering but. the same.
But without that ignition source it is still just a pile of wood.
Is there a chance that we helped create muslim radicals by creating Israel.
Which came first?
Just if ication
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216 colonelartist,
Go back and read my post carefully. Jews lived in Israel/Palestine during 1940s, 1930s and before that. They bought much of the land legally so what's your point? That's not occupation.
However looking with your bigoted view only switching it to Jewish radical point of view this is what I get: Muslims have changed status quo for thousand years and now its Jews' turn to change status quo. Your understanding of occupation is same as changing status quo.
Again I am less concerned about Jewish radicals as they don't have kind of (Shariat and)Diyyat laws(open official racism) and Jews are not out to forbid non-Jews' freedom.
colonelartist, you are talking about "occupation" and how its "breeds terrorism". Why don;t you first deal with open racism of Shariat and Islamic laws practise through out Muslims world (even in moderate Malaysia/Indonesia, a non-muslim marrying a muslim must convert to Islam). You need to start introspection, look into your religion.
Why does it have bloody borders? Why does it forbid freedom so much?
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203. At 4:20pm on 07 Nov 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref 195"Islam is the one true religion, all others are false, heretical or in error. "
jewish hardcores seem to think the same. and of course the christians gave up with that sort of thought(except in the USA)
"What Islam demands from others is at variance with what Islam concedes to others"
What Israel demands from others is at variance with what Israel concedes to others
"The claims made in the name of Islam are written in the Koran"
The claims made in the name of Israel are written in the Torah.
Just to point out that most of your criticism includes Islam but forgets the parallels or overlay with the Israel and maybe Judaism.
And the Historical christians after all no one would claim supremacy now in this day and age.?;)
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Fluff brain this is ignorant even for you. Israel and Jews do not force people to convert not would a Jew who convetrted to another or no faith be killed.
Israel unlike Hamas and Hezbollah has never committed terrorist attacks it is a soviergn nation which is one of the most progressive in the world.
You obvious have a problem with a country whose majority is Jewish. I wonder why?
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Gherkin the ignorant.
The basis for the creation of israel where it is is........ The torah.
so I said"The claims made in the name of Israel are written in the Torah."
are you disputing this?
Israel has demanded that all recognise it, yet they refuse to recognise a palestinian state ,
"What Israel demands from others is at variance with what Israel concedes to others"
you dispute this?
All the hardcore monotheistic religious people claim theirs is the only true God.
Jews as well.
You see no parallels?
again sorry for your ignorance.
Now the "as to "Israel never committing any terrorist acts.
well TECHNICALLY you are correct. Just as the Palestinians have never committed any terrorist acts.
There is no Palestine and there was NO Israel at the time they were terrorists. The Acts are being carried out or were carried out in order to create the state.
After their terrorism succeeded they formed a state and became a nation.
So they committed the acts before the creation of the state.
(sorry folk but he is a little slow).
so Israel doesn't commit terrorist acts because Israel is not in existence then when it is the attacks it carries out are????
Justified in the eyes of the lord?
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Go back and read my post carefully. Jews lived in Israel/Palestine during 1940s, 1930s and before that. They bought much of the land legally so what's your point? That's not occupation.
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I dont live in 30s or 40s, I live now. And the present screams of jewish occupation..And unless its ended, I will call it occupation because this is what it is..YOu can use all the words in all the languages to describe the situation but the situation is just described in one word. Occupation. Somehow the freedom lovers for women in every other muslim country just keep silence at the plight of palestinian women because of this occupation.
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you first deal with open racism of Shariat and Islamic laws practise through out Muslims world (even in moderate Malaysia/Indonesia, a non-muslim marrying a muslim must convert to Islam). You need to start introspection, look into your religion.
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No one is forcing any non muslim to marry a muslim..however if they want to, they have to convert to islam..Its a case of take it or leave it..
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pkk you do a good job of saying the muslims have the greaternumbers so we should excuse the sins of our buddy because he's weak.
But then you defend a nation that has Nukes ,undeclared,uninsoected.
that has shown no resolve for peace .Those nukes are there to threaten to destroy the land around.
I agree they don't seem too suicidal to me so probably not a worry.
But we have not allowed a democracy to flourish there and maybe in the future they will get more dangerous.
either way I still believe that the creation of the state of Israel is the spark that set fire to the middle easy.
And believe it or not the muslims didn't do that.
You say no occupation?
You lie. and so bold faced that you really deserve no answer.
you are as bad as those you deride.
Go learn what occupation means and don't come back with the edited "no one was forced off their farm "rubbish
"according to surveys," wher e is your survey of Israel?
sorry you say probably.
I would take it that you did research this before you started making claims against the whole religion.
Or was the will a little lacking?
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pkk
you say "Why does it have bloody borders?"
who said it does, you and some other bent twisted fool?
the answer would be " because the west couldn't leave the oil under the gound"
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PS I do know Israel is not the picture here, but it is a piece to the puzzle that forms the picture.
You can't throw out one piece and expect to finish the picture. of understanding.
Unless it is a real simple picture.
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To answer questions about where he will most likely be tried, he will probably be tried, for the murder itself, in the military court system under the Uniform Code of Military Justice which does indeed have a death penalty. UCMJ is different from both federal and state courts even though the offense will eventually be considered a federal offense. In fact, if he is acquitted under UCMJ (not likely) he could be tried in federal or state court if they can establish jurisdiction. He can also be tried in federal or state courts if any of his actions leading up to the killing spree violated state or federal laws.
As for the death penalty....the most recent Manual for Courts' Martial I have is the 2002 addition and I don't know if JAG has revised it since as I've been out a while. However, under Article 118 of the 2002 edition murder is defined as
' "any peron subject to this chapter who, without justification or excuse, unlawfully kills a human being, when he --" 1. has a premeditated design to kill; 2. intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm; 3. is engaged in an act that is inherently dangerous to another and envinces a wanton disregard of human life; or 4. is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burgulary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson; is guilty of murder, and shall suffer such punishment as a curt-martial may direct except that if found guilty under clause (1) or (4) he shall suffer death or imprisonment for life as a court-martial may direct.'
The lesser charge of manslaughter (non-premeditated) can't get the death penalty.
Also, if convicted, the gunman will be going to a military jail and I doubt his fellow soldiers will be happy to see him. Especially, as military psychiatrists often testify at soldiers trials and their testimony is instrumental in getting soldiers convicted or discharged.
However, if this particular Psychiatrists testified against you get your paperwork together because you're going to have a heck of an appeal. If you've been kicked out don't let anyone tell you you can't appeal because you can. Check with your VA.
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"no one was forced off their farm "rubbish
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And no european jew was forced out of his home in europe after nazi army was defeated..those who fled from europe during nazi dominance, could easily have come back to their homes in europe..unless ofcourse it was the european leaders who wanted the jews out of europe, or alteast create a jewish epicenter outside of europe..they had many reasons to do so..Now, supporting the occupation from a distance, they try to cover up the real reasons why jews from europe were encouraged to leave it, even after thousands of non-jewish soldiers lost their lives for the freedom of jews in europe..
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ref #226
Fluff brain you are assuming Jews follows the old testement verbatim? You probaly also believe the Protcols of Zion?
Unlike you having actually read and understood the Old Testment, I question weather you are mature enough to understand: Square Pants Sponge Bob.
But no sane Jew believes in slavery, stoning a witch etc.
But right now although the overwhelming majority of moslems are tolerant. The one religion that has most terrorist followers is Islam, that is a fact. Just as the most intolerant and unwilling people to live in peace are Palestinians.
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"I loathe cliche, but perhaps, for once, this is a "senseless tragedy", devoid of deeper meaning."
Senseless? Maybe, maybe not. Tragedy? Maybe, maybe not. Some reports have labelled him a 'murderer,' but that also relies on assumptions. It would be premature to judge. There are many possible explanations, and no doubt the investigators are conducting a search into his background and activities in recent months. Whether they reveal the true findings remains to be seen, but the event should at least cause politicians to reflect, irrespective of the gunman's motive.
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Gherkin you have asked me about the protocols of zion many time. I have told you several times that I have not wasted any time on them.
But you continue to lay your lies down.
What makes YOU assume Muslims all follow the scripture "verbatim".
I would say that a country that bans the use of elevators operated by the rider because it breaks the Sabbath is pretty well ruled by religion.
You claim to have understood the old testament after reading it(i think). the evidence you have presented so far shows no ability to read even short posts yet alone the old test.
I have met no muslim that believes in slavery or stoning of witches. It seems that national ideals maybe involved as much as religious ideals.
for when separated from those nations that would support the behaviour that you mention , most seem to ignore it.
You also ignore the root of so much of this problem they have with us.
but then you ignore the relevant all the time.
To end your post with " most intolerant and unwilling people to live in peace " and name the palestinians is just more proof that you understand very very little.
SBSP
SBBL
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The government is in a tough spot. If it turns out he was making an Islamic statement, they might be hesitant to let us know for fear it might spark anti-Moslem hatred. Also if that was his intent then the army has to take a lot of flack for having a terrorist in its midst. Then, again, if the man was suffring from what used to be called "battle fatigue," that won't play too well either. It will be interesting to see how they spin this one. All the choices look bad. Maybe they will come up with a non-war-related psychiatric ailment.
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#231. fluffytale,
"I do know Israel is not the picture here, but it is a piece to the puzzle that forms the picture."
And a very large piece. As John Pilger wrote, "Palestine is still the issue."
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gherkin
to say the palestinians are most intollerant and unwillingto live in peace is to forget yourself.
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Correction. I meant to say "treating people who had battle fatigue."
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"Palestine Is Still The Issue," was the title of a John Pilger documentary shown on British television and around the world. In it, if I recall correctly, he shows how the Palestine question impacts on other world affairs. As far as I know, it was never shown in USA, the land of free speech.
Link to artcles:
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=16
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Rich ,it sure is a big piece.
No one answered when the muslims started to get all radical.
I suspect it was in responce to events, not just through boredom.
Possibly the creation of israel helped, and then the Shah being installed. that annoyed a few.
Saddam Hussain, I bet he helped create a few himself.
I'm glad I'm not a muslim, I think they get way too much flack, and I can only assume it is racism.
or religionism if people want to not accept racism.
But I still suspectthat Israel really got the ball rolling.
(OK I KNOW)
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lol Richard. they don't like to show that side of the story here.
bad for advertising revenues.
And the likes of gherky are still blaming the palestinians for everything.
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From the BBC report on the shooting of Thomas Reeve.
Adam Cox, a reporter at KGNC Radio Amarillo, told the BBC
"It's a pretty popular bar, right in the centre of Amarillo, the Spotted Pony Bar. Not many people expect this to happen where people will wander in and shoot up a bar like that," he said.
Not MANY people expect this to happen ...!!!!!
But it's obviously common enough not to be truely shocking.
My sincerest condolences go out to the family and friends of Thomas Reeve, and to those of anyone killed by the easy avilability of handguns in the USA.
When will people wake up.
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198. At 4:10pm on 07 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
You can compare suicide bombing to the unmanned drones...
No, you cannot compare human beings to drones. You know very well that the Koran forbids suicide. And choosing to blow yourself up no matter what the reason is, without a doubt, suicide. You also know very well that the Koran has very strict rules of warfare. No soldier may go into war wanting to die. It also strictly forbids the killing of non-combatants. Only someone brandishing a weapon in war may be killed. An unarmed soldier is a non-combatant. Women and children are non-combatants. And even a pregnant woman brandishing a weapon must be subdued and not killed to protect the innocent child.
No other religion has such rules of warfare. Muslims claim that they are better than everyone else because they subscribe to these rules, despite what anyone else may do in warfare. And while I know and respect many followers of Islam, I have absolutely none for you if encourage others to violate the tenets of Islam.
The man who killed in Texas also killed a pregnant woman and her unborn child. If he was not insane and he should die, then it is fitting that he should have died by the hand of a woman and he is 14 times accursed for his actions.
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245 the ten commandment deny the right to kill or murder.
Gav bring on the old test justice eh.
We have "rules of engagement" they tend not to be always followed.
Abu Graib.
lest you forget created as many people hating the USA as the invasion did in the first place.
Gitmo.
pretty bad.
blow up babies in a house with a drone. Is that OK. or are you going to hold the muslims to higher standards than you do the west.
That is what the colonel is saying . I suspect.
and while I do think he is wrong on several issues he is not wrong on the continual hypocrisy that many here are perfect examples of.
You ignore the young Christians joining up and saying" you have to train to believe you are dead or you are too scared to fight"
"we learn to ignore the thought of it, death in order to protect the team.
Very noble words and deeds. I am not knocking the brave soldiers.
But I would say that if one of them said.
"If I am captured they will torture me and rape me. so I will not be captured.I love my fellow soldiers so much I would strap the bomb to myself and save them the danger of fighting"
But you see the one side.
Personally if someone tried to get me to fight or go on a near suicide mission(see very little difference) I would tell them to go to hell.
But then I'd tell them to go to hell if they asked me to kill someone.
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PS gav, While it is sad when anyone dies the american obsession with trying to claim that murderers are more evil because they killed someone they didn't even know existed is a twisted way of thinking.
Killing Anyone is wrong.
baby on board or not.
Unmanned drones have been called targeted assassination devices.
the execution of people without trial is illegal under international law.
But there's the west and Israel up to it every time they can.
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246 correction "they tend to be followed but not always."
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No, you cannot compare human beings to drones. You know very well that the Koran forbids suicide. And choosing to blow yourself up no matter what the reason is, without a doubt, suicide.
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Leave koran aside for a while..Tell me, does bible allow you to use drones? allow those people to have technology and you will see this trend will vanish..You belong to the culture which believes that using atom bombs in japan saved lives and yet you are all hyper and hysterical about to be iranian atom bomb..Now go tell obama and all those christians that bible totally forbids killing...and then bring in islam and koran to every tom dick and harrish issue.
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No other religion has such rules of warfare. Muslims claim that they are better than everyone else because they subscribe to these rules, despite what anyone else may do in warfare. And while I know and respect many followers of Islam, I have absolutely none for you if encourage others to violate the tenets of Islam.
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Sure, muslims are better, no matter what you say against islam or muslims, they will still be better than anyone else. First atleast convert to islam and liberate islam or defends its tenents..You defend the tenents of democracy or bible...
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_Marko the BBC employee wrote: Have you any statistical breakdown by religion, of terrorist acts.
Here’s some research that you BBC types will find unpalatable and will want to keep from the public. Over at Islam the religion of peace.com they have been logging every single Islamic atrocity and terrorist attacks since 9/11.
The current score is 14341
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
Now I understand you BBC types like to downplay Islamic violence for the sake of social cohesion in the UK.
But every time someone is butchered in the name of Islam the BBC’s default position is not to think about the victims of the violence, but the potential backlash against the Muslim community that has never happened in the UK. An example of this can be seen in this BBC title here:
“Shooting Raises Fears For Muslims In US Army”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8347586.stm
Now I understand that the BBC thinks the public will tar all Muslims with the same brush, however don’t you think it is bad taste to default to this position, to create an entirely hypothetical atrocity with entirely hypothetical victims?
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But every time someone is butchered in the name of Islam the BBC’s default position is not to think about the victims of the violence, but the potential backlash against the Muslim community that has never happened in the UK. An example of this can be seen in this BBC title here:
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it was the west and its media, including BBC that brought islam within a few minutes of 9/11 episode..Since then everything is being explained through the context of islam...In the past 9 months since obama took over his drones have killed 14 so called terrorists, majority among them foot soldiers and the average per terrorist, his drones have killed 50 civilians..and drones dont slaughter, they saquashed the people..I think if you had ever to see a slaughtered victim and a droned victim, you would react by physically sick at the sight of droned victim..
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“Shooting Raises Fears For Muslims In US Army”
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And this scared of muslim army is occupying muslim countries...Nice work..
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The man who killed in Texas also killed a pregnant woman and her unborn child. If he was not insane and he should die, then it is fitting that he should have died by the hand of a woman and he is 14 times accursed for his actions.
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it is extremely unwise to hightlight one or two examples like the one you have written..., because you choose to remain ignorant of the many young women pregent who got killed due to american invasion both in afghanist and iraq, due to occupation in israel, you believe that nothing of this happened in those parts? I can give you hundereds of even more emotional examples of people, children who have died, due to drones in pakistan and bombing of americans in afghanistan, but since I think its unwise to go in such details..Everyone knows that such things happen in wars, occupation and invasion..
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Women and children are non-combatants. And even a pregnant woman brandishing a weapon must be subdued and not killed to protect the innocent child.
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The proper audiance of this kind of lecture are the american trigger happy soldiers...the ones who made iraq and afghanistan into a pure texas.
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246. At 8:23pm on 07 Nov 2009, fluffytale wrote:
245 the ten commandment deny the right to kill or murder.
Gav bring on the old test justice eh.
The translation from the Hebrew is literally, "Thou shalt not commit murder". There is nothing about killing for justice, in self-defense or to protect the life of someone else.
Trust me, fluffster, if someone is attempting to kill you and your only hope to save your life is to kill your attacker: You will kill, or you will die. Is it wrong to want to live, even if you have to kill in order to survive? I don't think God had committing suicide by rapist-murderer or knife wielding street thug in mind when he handed down the injunction against killing.
And by the way, it isn't Old Testament. It's old Koran, or Qur'an, if one prefers. To die by the hand of a woman is an Islamic curse said to men. If that happens, the man won't go to Paradise. CA knows this. It is part of Islamic culture. And assuming that I am "putting it on" is a mistake.
247. At 8:27pm on 07 Nov 2009, fluffytale wrote:
PS gav, While it is sad when anyone dies the american obsession with trying to claim that murderers are more evil because they killed someone they didn't even know existed is a twisted way of thinking.
Killing Anyone is wrong.
baby on board or not
As a supporter of the Death penalty, I claim nothing of the kind. It is state sanctioned vengeance, pure and simple. And even if it weren't, these people cannot be reformed (it's been tried), nor can they be released back into the general population safely (that's been tried as well with murderous results). Why should I pay to keep serial killers, mass murderers and other heinous criminals healthy, educated and entertained for decades? They are a waste of skin and space. And I make no apologies for how I feel on the subject. I have my reasons. I hope to God you never find yourself agreeing with me, because by then you'll have yours - and I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
are you going to hold the muslims to higher standards than you do the west.
It's their standard and their religion. I am only reminding him that he is being hypocritical and espousing views that are considered anathema within his own culture. Rules of Engagement are not religious tenets. They are secular guidelines. Violations do not result in being condemned to burn for all eternity. If you want to compare apples and oranges, go to a fruit orchard.
As for torture, like most Americans, I am against it and I hope those at the top responsible for the crimes committed in my country's name are punished. Frankly, there are better and easier ways to get information than physical violence. Counter psychology works best - and I don't mean frat boy sex games and terror. As a last resort appropriate drugs can be used. The problem with the Bush administration was that it sidelined its real military interrogators and left the job to rank amateurs and sadistic incompetents. Or did you somehow imagine that American intelligence officers did not know how to acquire information without resorting to torture? If they didn't know, and hadn't always used other techniques, they'd have been caught doing it long ago.
Very noble words and deeds. I am not knocking the brave soldiers
Sure you are. You're just hoping no one notices.
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And by the way, it isn't Old Testament. It's old Koran, or Qur'an, if one prefers. To die by the hand of a woman is an Islamic curse said to men. If that happens, the man won't go to Paradise. CA knows this. It is part of Islamic culture. And assuming that I am "putting it on" is a mistake.
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No, old testament is an old testament, so dont even call it old koran..there is no such thing as old or new koran, there is just koran and thats all..And by CA I take it you mean me. and I want to declare here that I am not Allah..so I dont know which sort of death will bring a person to paradise and which sort of death will bring the dead person to hell..Its neither a part of islamic culture nor any muslim country\s cultures...its american culture whereby americans make statements of quite generaous nature...
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228, colonelartist,
Now you are showing your true colors, aren't you.
Why should any one convert to Islam if he/she wants to marry a muslim. And why are you in charge of another muslim's life? Why should there be a law forcing conversion?
My idea is that it should be left to individuals. If they want to marry anyway, state has no business in that in making conversion mandatory.
You want to violate basic human rights but cry a lot when terrorists are attacked in drone attacks. Speaks volumes of hypocrisy.
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#251. Ex-Beebiod
Over at Islam the religion of peace.com [an anti-Islam website]they have been logging every single Islamic atrocity and terrorist attacks since 9/11. The current score is 14341
And as there have been well over a million muslim deaths by USA since 9/11, looks like USA trumps the whole world of Islam many times over, without including the 19,000 muslims detainees held without trial in American detention camps since 9/11.
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are you going to hold the muslims to higher standards than you do the west.
It's their standard and their religion.
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and what are your standards? torture? signing to the geneva conventions and then violating them when the testing time comes? holding fair and free elections, but accepting a fraud like karzai as the president? Being careful of people with post traumatic disorders, and then relying on president zardari of pakistan, who was diagnosed with this disorder? YOu are so over focused with the standards of islam and their violaters that you dont even see the violaters who violate your standards in a broad day light..and all you are left with is making excuses after excuses..Old testement according to you allow murder in self defence and when your islamic terrorists say this, you go hyper against them by saying they are killing in name of islam...Finally I would like to congratulate that after 9/11 you have atleast stopped mentioning that muslims kill because of 72 virgins..Now you say its its the whole islam..
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229 fluffytale,
I have no intention of defending Israel, I was only defending Israel's right to exist, does not mean I support what they do.
I have no business with radical Jews, they usually don't proselytize; I have business with Muslims because even in country I am losing freedoms due to Islamic thugs, who are hypersensitive to any criticism of their religion, and these thugs are killing my people.
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Why should any one convert to Islam if he/she wants to marry a muslim. And why are you in charge of another muslim's life? Why should there be a law forcing conversion?
My idea is that it should be left to individuals. If they want to marry anyway, state has no business in that in making conversion mandatory.
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The why in the "why should anyone wants to convert to islam for marriage purposes" is obvious..Genius because S/he wants to marry a muslim. I am sure no muslim would want to live with a purpose and have illegal marital sexual relationships..and have children out of wedlock..Your idea is bad..its cannot applicable to muslims..We have certain verses from koran and we take witness of Allah in our marriage rituals..if the person isnt a muslim how will she and he can take Allah has the witness and recite verses from Koran? its common sense..If the person doesnt want to, the person should marry a muslim, plenty of fish in the occean for him or her and also for the muslim..
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230, 231 fluffytale,
I know you call those fools who disagree with you. Gppd that I am away and not being stoned for criticizing.
Anyway, its funny tto say that Islamic extremism started with Palestine :occupation" in 1947. Islamic extremism existed since the day the religion was founded from pagan roots in Arabia by Arabs (the Masters of all muslims). Look at the path it took into South Asia and South East Asia, it was bloody.
That's one case I mean by bloody borders. Without strong resistance from Christian Europe I can only imagine the horrible situation that would have been in Europe. A strong Europe resisted Islam's way in 7th century and hence the violence spread East. Read history properly. Islam was spread by sword.
And I don't understand what Chechenya Islamists, Thai Islamists have to do with Palestine. Russia and Thailand were never big backers of Israel.
But we are forgetting the elephant in the room. Shariat and Diyyat laws. Why is that is a muslim man is worth 100000 riyals and a christian woman 25,000? Does Israel have such laws. Again you may jump, but I am not defending Israel.
Does any other religion have such inhuman laws?
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Now you are showing your true colors, aren't you.
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And i dont show any colors, I am perfectly at ease with the color that I have..I have just one color, no shades,just one color...which I dont have to even show, its obvious..unless I come across a blind person, and when he or she asks me the color, I tell them, if they dont ask, I dont tell..
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I have no intention of defending Israel, I was only defending Israel's right to exist, does not mean I support what they do.
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And its right to exist is linked to its occupation..If you support its right to exist, you support occupation..If you on the other hand support palestinians right to have a country, you automatically support israel, the state created unilaterally and then accepted on second voting at the UN..when usa had to give bribe to those small countries in south america..And no one can start supporting a country''s right to exist if that country has no boundries..This means israel can spread illegally to right, left and center, while you support its right to exist...If you support its right to exist, then you have the duty to make it show you its boundries so that you know exactly which borders you are supporting and where your supports should end.
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But we are forgetting the elephant in the room. Shariat and Diyyat laws. Why is that is a muslim man is worth 100000 riyals and a christian woman 25,000?
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I refer you to the people who bought the muslim men, and took them to gitmo..they will tell you the latest price of muslim men..
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colonelartist,
Pakistans is begging for international(US) aid on the verge of bankruptcy. I don't think one who begs has much choice. So stop begging and then complain about drones. Besides Pak govt is not against drone attackes, they just want to control whom to hit (they don't want to to hit the good taliban fighting US in Afghan, they want to fight bad taliban fighting pak govt).
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A thought, although I doubt if it'll make it past the moderators. The murderer (yes, he planned it by bringing a loaded gun into unarmed space - he wasn't simply and spontaneously 'amok') is a 'devout Moslem' but he is - what? - 39 years old and unmarried. Maybe so Americanised it doesn't matter - in which case why put on fancy dress to go shopping - but he's flying in the face of Koranic injunction by staying single to that age. Are we looking at the great tabu subject when we discuss Islam, which is what men do when they have no respect or love for women and therefore no desire to get married? Explosion of repression brought on by cross-currents of sexual stress plus being transferred from curing to killing? The problem is the Islamic 'stars' and 'black marks' system for getting into heaven - a Moslem can put 'big good deeds' into the scales to balance off lots of 'minor bad deeds' and still get there: pass-mark 51%. Martyrdom is a very big-time 'good deed'. I have a feeling (and I'm not alone) that good, old-fashioned shame drove the man most of the way round the bend, while the Koran's juicy injunctions to killing folks, no matter how 'peripheral' to its main message of love (?), provide a useful outlet. I wonder how many suicide bombers are driven by the same forces, perhaps exploited by clever warmongers...
And please, if you comment on this, please don't drag a lot of abrogated, unobserved, obsolete Old Testament into the discuission. We Christians don't do that stuff much any more, although bombing us and killing enough of us is a fairly good way to get yourself invaded. Note also that possession of atomic weapons is conditional upon understanding deterrence, or the whole system gets upset - filling the airwaves with threats of annihilation and genocide is not a good way to make people trust your mental or martial stability. Just as slaughtering your fellow-soldiers while bawling 'Allah-u-Akbar' is not the best advertisement for the faith you profess by doing so.
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colonelartist:
As I stated above, the bible does not in anyway forbid killing for the sake of justice, self-defense or war - just like the Koran. The only difference is, the Koran has specific rules for warfare and the bible does not. You cannot expect others to play by your rules when you won't even play by them.
Personally, I have never agreed with killing non-combatants for any reason - no matter who does it. That said, there is no religious or military law in American or western culture that forbids the use of drones. And if you want your people to have technology, you're going to have get it for yourselves, same as everyone else on the planet. The largest transfer of wealth from the west has occurred in the last 40 years. Why don't you get angry at the selfish oil sheiks with fleets of cars and dozens of palaces, who send their kids to the west to get an education, instead of building schools that teach something other than just religion? Why can't they build factories and give their people work? It's almost as if they don't want to educate their people and allow them to be productive.
Also, I have no objections to Iran having nuclear bombs. I hope everyone has a nuclear bomb someday. If everyone had a nuclear bomb we'd all be too afraid to have any wars. Nuclear bombs are good things. In fact, I want my own nuclear bomb. I think it would be pretty cool to glow in the dark and have my skin melt off.
And no, I will not leave Koran aside. Americans embrace a wide variety of religions and enjoy studying them even if they do not practice themselves. So for your edification and anyone else who might be interested:
"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors." - Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2:190)
"O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).
The taking of life is allowed only by way of justice, i.e. the death penalty for murder. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33).
Regarding mass murder being an aberrant part of American culture. It was par for the course in some places. In pre-Islamic Arabia for instance, retaliation and mass murder was commonplace. If someone was killed the victim's tribe would retaliate against the murderer's entire tribe. This practice was directly forbidden in the Qur'an (2:178-179). Following this statement of law, the Qur'an says, "After this, whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave chastisement" (2:178).
Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad. This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.
"O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety."
You don't make people better human beings by saying: Do what I say, not what I do. And unlike the Christianity, Islam does not allow for excuses.
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262, colonelartist,
You want to leave koran out of discussion just few posts before and then use allah and koran to justify inhuman laws of proselytizing non-muslims.
Anyway, why do you have a say over all Muslims? They should be able to choose for themselves if their partner needs to convert or not. Why do you/state have a say in that.
It is these kind of irrational beliefs(that allah told in koran to do so) that lead to friction/wars between cultures and the when happens the strong wins.
266, colonelartist,
Yeah there are millions of muslim men in gitmo. Millions of non-muslims in Saudi and Pakistan are subject to inhuman shariat/diyyat laws against a few thousand in gitmo who were captured in Afghan fighting US (who are released anyway). But the persection of non-muslims is perpetual in these Islamic countries.
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A few days ago, in the US the death penalty was executed on John Allen Mohammed -- the notorious "Washington sniper" who ultimately inflicted fewer casualties, but committed his crimes over an agonizing stretch of time, terrorising millions.
The authorities never received a detailed confirmation of his motive. John Allen Mohammed, acting with a single young associate, went to considerable lengths to kill & maim people. Why he decided on this course of action remains unclear.
By contrast, Ted Kaczynski, the "Unabomer" wrote many volumes in explanation for his actions. His vendetta targeted specific individuals. in each case he had what he believed to be a "reason."
The attack on Ft. Hood is not accompanied, as far as we know, by lengthy written arguments. it already emerges, however, that the attacker was not shy about expressing his views in defence of homicidal suicides, which he believed to be justifiable within a war context. There appear to be plenty of witnesses to his spoken & written declarations in which he justified attacks on unarmed populations as one more kind of tactical manoeuver. He was referring specifically to the so-called suicide bombers who have recently been glorified by many Palestinians.
We have all seen the horrors and unforgivable suffering imposed on utterly powerless populations, most particularly on unarmed civilians and the most vulnerable amongst us, by those who imagine "suicide attacks" are somehow an acceptable weapon.
it may indeed be divine justice that the attacker in this case did not get to achieve suicide. if he remains for the natural duration of his life locked into a severe coma, unable to communicate with others, that would quite possibly be a fitting punishment. And after that he can go to hell. Forever.
Treason. Treachery. Hate crime. Terrorism. War crime. Atrocity. A violation of all medical oaths as well as an outrage against any legitimate religious belief. All of these terms apply to this case.
The deliberate, premeditated, calculated way in which he prepared for that moment further confirms a devious, deceitful, malevolent character.
This man did not join the military to serve -- he joined the military to exploit its many advantages. That is why his original declaration of "no religious preference" on his personnel records is a blatant lie. He did not change his mind, somewhere along the way...
There are Palestinians who are Muslim and there are Palestinians who are Christian. Dr. Hasan's brothers' religious practice and cultural affiliation is with Palestinian islam -- as his name reflects.
That we can see Muslims are out in force today trying to shift the blame for this atrocity, and to redirect the spotlight away from their violence-loving fanatics, only reinforces the facts. They have a problem, and that problem has to do with a low degree of tolerance for non-Muslim communities & ideas.
Dr. Hasan may have imagined he could set off some kind of spark with his example. Or it may have been sufficient for him simply to bring, to American soil, the kind of direct "army of one" attack we have thus far primarily seen in israel, iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan.
A painful reminder of the still-recent conspiracy by physicians of islamic belief in the UK to attack a hospital.
There is still no getting around the fact that violence by Muslims has killed more people over the course of history than violence by any other religious group.
Only atheists have actually killed more people -- within the context of Communism.
Yes, some of you will be upset about these statements, but they are, in fact, true. Just think about it: since its inception, the Muslim Conquest, the Ottoman Empire, then the various factions in the Middle East, iran, Turkey (mainly against the Kurds), Pakistan & Afghanistan, many Muslims in the Caucasus & the Balkans, Africa... and that's before we even factor in the last few years, and Al-Qaeda.
And on this day in 1917, on 7 Nov, the Bolsheviks ushered in the era of State Atheism which went on to grind up quite a few hundred million lives -- across Eastern Europe, the USSR, much of Asia and all of China -- and from there infecting a few other corners of the world.
Those of us who have never subscribed to schools of thought which endorse coercion as an instrument of social engineering have every right to be upset with, and critical of, adherents of ideologies that have no qualms about applying force -- even extreme force -- against anyone who thinks differently, or chooses a different path in life.
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#263. pkkmres,
"Without strong resistance from Christian Europe I can only imagine the horrible situation that would have been in Europe."
Not difficult to imagine, we'd been invaded by the Romans.
"Read history properly. Islam was spread by sword."
Read history properly. Christianity was spread by sword.
Shall we now consider Alexander's invasion of Persia?
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272, Richard,
Xianity (I am not one) gained popularity when Roman emperor converted to the religion and gave official recognition to it. That's not "spreading by sword". Xianity spread by organized violence only of late, not initially.
Islam from its inception was spread by sword starting with Muhammad (himself killed hundreds, married many times, including a child). I don't think Jesus ever killed anyone (at least according to official version). So we know who is a better role model for masses.
Read spread of Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam
Focus on events from 650AD to about 1919AD. I am not talking about early introduction in different places which did not have much impact. I am talking about events leading to mass conversions, demolition of local cultures (for example Persian culture almost extinct).
Alexander lived centuries before Christ so what's your point.
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257. At 10:01pm on 07 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
No, old testament is an old testament, so dont even call it old koran..there is no such thing as old or new koran, there is just koran and thats all..
I was being facetious to the fluffster, not intending to disparage the Koran. My apologies. The Koran is old, that is all I meant.
And by CA I take it you mean me. and I want to declare here that I am not Allah..so I dont know which sort of death will bring a person to paradise and which sort of death will bring the dead person to hell..
If you don't, then you should. See above.
Its neither a part of islamic culture nor any muslim country\s cultures...its american culture whereby americans make statements of quite generaous nature...
Hmmm. Not liking my revealing tribal secrets, eh? Then perhaps you'd best remember that you cannot see me, so you don't know who I am or to whom I belong.
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ref #241
That proganda piece could have probaly been rented on DVD or shown at a Palestinian film festival.
But his premise is false the land was never the Palestinians.
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Question to Colonist and Richard SM:
Hypotheticly if Israel gave in to the unreasonaqble Saudi Plan which is Israel goes back to pre 67 borders alllows the right of returen etc. Then the Palestinians continue terrorist attacks and missles attacks, what would the other Arab nations do to aid Israel?
Untill you can give an answer to that. why should such an Israel be generous to such an intolerant unreasonable people.
Israel suruvial is more important than the bogus cliam s of a minority of Palestinians who have tow states already.
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The fact that the murderer terrorist Hasan did not list himself as American should have been a big indicator. Americans do not always have to agree with American leaders, but we must agree to be 100% loyal to our country. If an American does not call oneself an American, then they are not truly an American. It doesn't matter what descent you are, Americans simply call themselves Americans, or they can call themself African-American, European-American, Japanese-American, ect. But for the terrorist murderer Hasan to call himself a Palestinian instead of American when he lived in America all his life just shows he was not loyal to our country and did not belong here. How ironic that he was Palestinian. How ironic that he was a Muslim/Islamic extremist that just so happened to be a murderer.
This wasn't a guy who was simply angry he had to go back to war. This was a guy who committed crimes against his brothers, sisters and family, a guy who committed crimes against his country. There is no sympathy for murderers here and we will not let him go on compassionate grounds, as he showed no compassion for his family and his country.
Hasan never was and never will be a true American. A true American is only one who is loyal to the USA and wants to help our country and soldiers, not harm them. Even if one disagrees with our govt., true Americans love their country and support it and our people always.
Hasan was a terrible psychiatrist. Instead of helping people, he killed them. There was something deeply wrong with him to go after innocent unarmed people. What Hasan did is as bad as going after women and children, as he knew that the soldiers would be unarmed and he went after them purposefully. Hasan is an evil, cruel man who does not deserve to live. He deserves the death penalty.
Again, I have met people of many races and descents, who are all friendly and against killing. The ones I don't trust are the Muslim/ Islamic extremists, which you can tell by their psychotic rants and sickening murder plots against innocent people. Beware of these Islamic/Muslim extremists, because they have no mercy, no love and no soul.
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271, maria-ashot,
Actually you forgot to include killings of native populations of North and South America by Xians. What about inquisition?
And muslims clearly trump all, sorry, not even communists can stand those numbers. And are we not forgetting Hitler, who self-confssedly was order by God to exterminate jews, there is no evidence that God did not speak to Hitler (pun intended), but his ideas were also influenced by Eugenics and racial purity, so it's not entirely clear whether Goddid not order Hitler to do it (pun intended). Hitler's count exceeds 7 million.
Communism is a self-defeating ideology compared to other two which are self-perpetuating ideologies. This is because communism is not a practical economic policy and could live in its virulence for only 80 years. The other two ideologies on the other hand have fought wars in the name of religion for 2000/1400 years.
So the list may be in this order with some approximation
1. Muslims (starting with the founder, for 1400 years, Bangladesh and Sudan genocides among recent each claiming more than million)
2. Xianity (founder is as innocent as one can get)
3. Communism
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271 maria-ashot says
"And on this day in 1917, on 7 Nov, the Bolsheviks ushered in the era of State Atheism which went on to grind up quite a few hundred million lives -- across Eastern Europe, the USSR, much of Asia and all of China -- and from there infecting a few other corners of the world."
My understanding:
Sorry to object but Chinese are/were Maoists, not Bolsheviks. And Mao killed so many under the comedy show called "cultural revolution". Most deaths(in tens of millions) are from starvation, not direct violence/wars, hundreds of thousands of political opponents died. Demonstrates what happens when a bunch of fools are at helm. Same case with Bolsheviks, though Bolshevicks killed hundreds of thousands of political opponents.
But please give me some references/links that refer to hundreds of millions. In case my version of history is wrong, I want to correct it.
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Anyway, why do you have a say over all Muslims? They should be able to choose for themselves if their partner needs to convert or not. Why do you/state have a say in that.
It is these kind of irrational beliefs(that allah told in koran to do so) that lead to friction/wars between cultures and the when happens the strong wins.
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Between the non muslims here and those who occupy and those who sit infront of camera and tell muslims, what islam is and how muslims should follow islam and me, a muslim, I think i do have more right..
Focusing on frictions of the present day, between muslims and christians and atheists, its the non muslims who are either told by their bible or their constitutions or founding fathers to attack and occupy the muslim countries. The christians, atheists create these wars and then expect the muslims to just love them back..You come from the culture of bible and democracy, which you claim loves everyone, you show that love..
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Hypotheticly if Israel gave in to the unreasonaqble Saudi Plan which is Israel goes back to pre 67 borders alllows the right of returen etc. Then the Palestinians continue terrorist attacks and missles attacks, what would the other Arab nations do to aid Israel?
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My answer to your hypothetical scenario is that it smells of racism..Somehow you seem to not only sit inside the minds of palestinians but believe that they will continue..This is your problem, correct it first and then engange in this debate.
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Pakistans is begging for international(US) aid on the verge of bankruptcy. I don't think one who begs has much choice. So stop begging and then complain about drones. Besides Pak govt is not against drone attackes, they just want to control whom to hit (they don't want to to hit the good taliban fighting US in Afghan, they want to fight bad taliban fighting pak govt).
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You are lucky that pakistan is begging for aid, what you have done to it in the past 9 years, it has the right to snatch the money out of your hands..First you had your favourite general in pakistan who willingly sold men and country to america, and now you have this post traumatic disordered president, you are doing your bussiness with..Its those pakistanis who are dying so that you could thrieve in your ignorance ungratefully..
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Mark:
Yes, this is an absolte "Senseless Tragedy"...Thanks
for the accurate description...
=Dennis Junior=
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Hmmm. Not liking my revealing tribal secrets, eh? Then perhaps you'd best remember that you cannot see me, so you don't know who I am or to whom I belong.
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No, not liking your refusal to believe that muslim women can also commit murder..and trust me, I have offered funeral prayers of some murdered people and never once I heard people talking such nonsense..if you want to score some cheap score about the shooting of this man by a woman, then you are way off the mark..No one is going to buy it, I suggest you try something else.
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And no, I will not leave Koran aside. Americans embrace a wide variety of religions and enjoy studying them even if they do not practice themselves. So for your edification and anyone else who might be interested:
"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors." - Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2:190)
"O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).
The taking of life is allowed only by way of justice, i.e. the death penalty for murder. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33).
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Those who dont know quran, shouldnt posts verses right , left and center..I suggest you focus on the blog topic. The non muslim quoting koran for 9 yrs is getting tirsome.. You want to believe that only non muslims hav the right to kill, and muslims dont have that right..
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281, colonelartist,
I am not saying I have right to tell. Just let the people decide whom they want to marry rather than state(or individuals) forcing.
US founding fathers never asked us to fight muslim countries, neither did founding fathers/constitutions of EU(Russia, India, Thailand, China(though Chinese do enjoy attacking religious)). That really shows your ignorance.
282,
Funny that you cry racism. This is based on religion, not race. But then you support the inhuman and open discrimination allowed by Shariat and Diyyat laws, don't you. Oh the hypocrisy.
Don't expect any budging from non-mulims until muslim countries start treating their citizens equally.
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Why is my comment 284 referred? Did I say anything factually incorrect. I might have said something politically incorrect.
And my post does NOT include any calls for hatred/violence. What rules did it violate. It is this kind of freedom I am losing due to these thugs.
I can't call spade a spade (or pedophile a pedophile in this case).
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You want to leave koran out of discussion just few posts before and then use allah and koran to justify inhuman laws of proselytizing non-muslims.
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I never bring in koran or islam when talking to non-muslims..Its not me who brought it, I replied..and I choose to reply to certain posts, not every post...
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And muslims clearly trump all, sorry, not even communists can stand those numbers. And are we not forgetting Hitler, who self-confssedly was order by God to exterminate jews, there is no evidence that God did not speak to Hitler (pun intended), but his ideas were also influenced by Eugenics and racial purity, so it's not entirely clear whether Goddid not order Hitler to do it (pun intended). Hitler's count exceeds 7 million.
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Lets not bring here who G-d talked to, or otherwise I will be forced to remind you that bush had also talked to G-d, or as he said, he talked to the higher father, before waging the war against iraq..Seems like christians get a hot line with G-d, or son of G-d when they go on their war waging adventures..And He only communicates to them when He is giving them a go ahead signal to go to war..Muslims seems to be up against, chosen people of G-d, and those who talk to G-d.
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202. At 4:20pm on 07 Nov 2009, RomeStu wrote:
pkk 193" (67% of respondents also expressed agreement with the statement “America is an immoral, corrupt society”)"
I wonder how many church-going christians would say the same. I bet it's close.
________________________________
Depends on how simply you define "American society", but yes unless you get to know us and take a very broad sample, American society is immoral and corrupt, and many of the criticisms made by conservative Mmuslim culture are spot on.
KScurmudgeon
churchgoing Christian
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281. At 00:14am on 08 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
"Between the non muslims here and those who occupy and those who sit infront of camera and tell muslims, what islam is and how muslims should follow islam and me, a muslim, I think i do have more right..
Focusing on frictions of the present day, between muslims and christians and atheists, its the non muslims who are either told by their bible or their constitutions or founding fathers to attack and occupy the muslim countries. The christians, atheists create these wars and then expect the muslims to just love them back..You come from the culture of bible and democracy, which you claim loves everyone, you show that love.."
I believe that the warlike actions of societies, Christian, Muslim, Atheistic or whatever, and the intent and content of their scriptural traditions, stand in approximately the same relation in each case. That is, European aggression through the centuries, atheist (e.g.communist) agression, and muslim aggression through the centuries, each flies in the face of their doctrine. Is this not true? Which scriptures overtly declare the right to conquer unbelievers?
For the rest of your statements here, you must go on telling the unvarnished truth. I often disagree in details, but support your clarity of understanding.
KScurmudgeon
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I am not saying I have right to tell. Just let the people decide whom they want to marry rather than state(or individuals) forcing.
US founding fathers never asked us to fight muslim countries, neither did founding fathers/constitutions of EU(Russia, India, Thailand, China(though Chinese do enjoy attacking religious)). That really shows your ignorance.
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how many times do I have to tell you its not possible. When a non muslim decides to marry a muslim then he or she has to convert to islam to do the marriage rituals the most important one is that you first of all recite the verse of witnessing that Allah is one etc etc etc,which is the conversation.Its not some mumbo jumbo where people can make up their own vows..And unless you want to marry a muslim I dont think why this should bother you a lot..Every non muslim knows it, and those who marry muslims do convert to islam without any problems..
your founding fathers, religon, constitution and laws tell you to fight and occupy muslim countries..You fight the muslims in the name of your founding fathers, consitution and religon.whether you admit it or not.
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Funny that you cry racism.
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i cry racism because the post and hypothetical scenario was based on racism..to even to believe a whole nation in this case palestinians, that they will never stop the so called terrorism even if they are given liberty is racist..And like me, you should call it racism..To label a whole nation as terrorists and therefore not worthy of freedom is not right, will never be right..
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I believe that the warlike actions of societies, Christian, Muslim, Atheistic or whatever, and the intent and content of their scriptural traditions, stand in approximately the same relation in each case. That is, European aggression through the centuries, atheist (e.g.communist) agression, and muslim aggression through the centuries, each flies in the face of their doctrine. Is this not true? Which scriptures overtly declare the right to conquer unbelievers?
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I am not at all interested in what happened in the distance past..I live now, and at present, its the non muslims who are doing a witch hunting against islam.. In the west, the beliefs have changed, the religon is on the loosing side, people consider themselves to be atheists or whatever they say they are, but the mentality has not..In your past, when religion had power, it went a witch hunting adventure against its rivals, Now the same mentality is making those so called atheists together with religon are doing a witch hunting against islam and muslims..That whats worse is that these neo athiests have hijacked the concept of atheism and now athiesm has become a hatered towards religon, especially islam..if you critisize islam then you are atheiest, and the more you do, and more you degrade religon, the more atheist you are..There was a time when it was a pleasure to discuss issues with atheists..now, its just a bother.
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271. At 10:57pm on 07 Nov 2009, maria-ashot wrote:
“The attack on Ft. Hood is not accompanied, as far as we know, by lengthy written arguments. it already emerges, however, that the attacker was not shy about expressing his views in defence of homicidal suicides, which he believed to be justifiable within a war context. There appear to be plenty of witnesses to his spoken & written declarations in which he justified attacks on unarmed populations as one more kind of tactical manoeuver. He was referring specifically to the so-called suicide bombers who have recently been glorified by many Palestinians.”
Your points seem to be borne out if the news reports are accurate. The other asymmetricality of Islam vs. everyone else is the Islamic designation of the non-Muslim world as the “Beit al Harb” or House of War. The right of Islam to make war on others or seek revenge for real or fancied insults and attacks is assumed but no reciprocal right against Islam is tolerated.
Modern [Western] thought, while often not realized in practice, assumes universal and equal rights. This applies to all genders, races, religions and social classes. In Islam this is true only within Islam [and then only very theoretically, as a visit to any Muslim country of more than a few days will show], but only of Muslim men without the equality of genders, religions etc.
You will be told on entering a Muslim country that all are equal in Islam without regard to race or color. I had not worked in Saudi Arabia long before I noticed that Saudis did not in fact treat EVEN MUSLIMS equally. There was a definite color or race based caste system. So I learned at first hand to take Muslim self-congratulation with more than just a grain of salt.
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#273. pkkmres,
"Alexander lived centuries before Christ so what's your point.
Just pointing out the stupidity of dealing with a contemporary issue by going back hundreds of years.
"....gained popularity when Roman emperor converted to the religion and gave official recognition to it. That's not "spreading by sword". Xianity spread by organized violence only of late, not initially."
So why did the Romans have swords and shields and helmets? Do you think they wore all that battledress because it made them look cool? It's laughable that you want to start the analysis from 650AD, but as that's the period that interests you then you'll know all about Charlemagne and his conquests - another christian peacemonger.
And how about this 9th century depiction of Christ as a heroic warrior?
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295, colonelartist,
Palestine and Israel are distinguished by their religion, not race. How is it racism?. But how about Sharia(Diyyat) laws openly degrading non-muslims to 2nd class citizens, that's ok? Hypocrisy.
294, here is another solution, how about a muslims converting to the other's religion if amicable status quo is unacceptable to you. Oh wait any one leaving Islam has to die (Saudi, Pak among nations with death penalty for apostates).
291, Bush said he talked to his "higher father", that may or may not mean God, may be higher father is Senior Bush(his real father). But hold on why are we so sure God did not talk to bin Laden(he claimed so) or Hitler(as he claimed). I am not asking to believe my words, I am asking you to believe these people's own words on why they committed these crimes.
But on marriage you won't budge and you are committed to discrimination. You won't leave it upto people to decide. You want to avoid theological(mythological) technicalities when I ask how are you sure God did not speak to bin Laden or Hitler, but you are alright bringin theological(mythological) technicalities when two people love each other and want to marry, free from state's discriminating Shariat laws. Do you smell something here?
I use "theological/mythological" because someone's theology is others mythology and/or vice versa.
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I am not saying I have right to tell. Just let the people decide whom they want to marry rather than state(or individuals) forcing.
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I hope that you realise that I am withholding certain information. Unless you take it up first or point it out first, I wont mention it.Sometimes I get these impulses to not tell things about islam to non-muslims..and this is one of those times..This is my way to filter out people who gather information and continue to be ignorant, from those who accept the things told and move on..
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293 KScurmudgeon says
"Which scriptures overtly declare the right to conquer unbelievers?"
You obviously have not read all the scriptures. By the way communists do not call them scriptures, they call it little red book(or similar). I do not know if Atheists have any scriptures, since no Atheist I argued with ever discussed any Atheist scripture.
296, colonelartist
DId you actually discuss "these" issues in person with an Atheist and he walked away (I know an Atheist who was threatened by a Muslim during a religious discussion)? SO convenient to forget the distant past. There are certainly some skeletons of the past we don't want to discuss.
296 colonelartist says "That whats worse is that these neo athiests have hijacked the concept of atheism and now athiesm has become a hatered towards religon, especially islam..if you critisize islam then you are atheiest, and the more you do, and more you degrade religon, the more atheist you are."
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Here is what some of my Atheist friends(no, I don't kill them ;)) tell me of their lack of belief. There is no concept in Atheism, no leader, no scripture.
If you want to find some one who hates Islam/muslims the most then you need to find some Xians from US, they are just as irrational as you are. DId you not see them during 2008 election. The ultra-right wing people. Well, I support republicans too, but I am not ultra-righwing.
You are wrong, if you criticize Islam you are a non-muslims(likely) not necessarily an Atheist. I heard criticism of Islam from Xian, communist, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew to name a few. MOst criticism comes from Xians and communists though.
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209, 214, 225, 258, 270, 288, 299 - pkkmres
215, 276 Kagic
269, 274 GavLaP
Please do not feed the troll.
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But hold on why are we so sure God did not talk to bin Laden
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I am not sure about hitler, but he was a christian and christians have direct communication with G-d or His son..they even see the son of G-d, as if talking isnt enough..I am sure about ben laden, because G-d doesnt talk to muslims..He didnt even directly talked to Mohammad..the communication took place via an angel...G-d has talked to the muslims in Koran, and if the muslims even dream of trying to engage Him in some conversation, And if He by some miracle decides to talk back, the muslims know what He would say, that all He had to say He has said in Koran.. Iam not discriminating anyone on this marriage issue which seems to bother you a lot..its just how it is..and if a non muslim realy wants to marry a muslim, S/he has to convert..and the matter will be solved..If not, then such marriage shouldnt even take place if it causes friction before its even started..Life becomes very easy if you sort out these things before getting married..
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Palestine and Israel are distinguished by their religion,
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And they are also distinguished by their race..those who claim to call themselves as semites, and those who are less of a semites and more of palestinians...Read Edward Said and he will tell you the difference, or ask the christian palestinian wife of yasser arafat (there I have given you a hint about what I didnt tell you) Ask Laila khalid, and other christian palestinians who are now a days conviently overlooked these days, as conviently as occupation is overlooked these days..
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DId you actually discuss "these" issues in person with an Atheist and he walked away (I know an Atheist who was threatened by a Muslim during a religious discussion)?
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I prefered those good old, russian socialist athiests..not the neo athiests, who think atheism is to degrade religon..they dont come up with reasons to support their ideas, they start with accusing and in a degrading manner the religon..so I run away from these neo athiests..
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Ref #282colonelartist wrote:
Hypotheticly if Israel gave in to the unreasonaqble Saudi Plan which is Israel goes back to pre 67 borders alllows the right of returen etc. Then the Palestinians continue terrorist attacks and missles attacks, what would the other Arab nations do to aid Israel?
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My answer to your hypothetical scenario is that it smells of racism..Somehow you seem to not only sit inside the minds of palestinians but believe that they will continue..This is your problem, correct it first and then engange in this debate.
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No it's you who refuse to acknowledge that Israel is being held to a different standard. You and others want them to give all demands and trust for peace.
Why not have the Palestinians prove that they can stop terrorist attacks, then Israel might be willing to talk. You are quick to call occupation terrorism they are are just not allowing free passage. Untill the Palestinans prove they can be trusted, Israel has no choice.
A show of faith would be the Palestinians to turn over the Hamas war criminals and the Lebanese to turn over Nazarallah and the Saudi to pay compensation for Israel suffering with 50% of their oil profits.
the latter is more reasonable than Abdullahs plan.
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You are wrong, if you criticize Islam you are a non-muslims(likely) not necessarily an Atheist. I heard criticism of Islam from Xian, communist, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew to name a few. MOst criticism comes from Xians and communists though.
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There was this jewish leader type guy I dont recall if he was some general or a political guy,but some decades ago, he was talking to some american higher up and in conversation the jewish guy asked the american if he was a jew or a christian, the american reply, he was an antiest, to which the jewish guy said, "yes, but are you a jewish atheist or a christian atheist"..
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colonelartist wrote: When a non muslim decides to marry a muslim then he or she has to convert to islam.
In progressive Muslim utopias such as Saudi Arabia they believe in genies, see this BBC link:
“Saudi 'genie' sued for harassment”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8145862.stm
Carry on telling us non Muslims that we need to convert to Islam in order to marry a Muslim then I shall be forced to set a genie on you.
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300, colonelartist
I am sure you are withholding some enlightened information that you probably exclusively received from Allah,but anyone who is unable to defend one's position would say the same.
You probably should not call these ignorant, rather it could be the case that you don't want to admit shariat includes outright discrimination against nonmuslims. The same discrimination you complain about Jews.
By the way, don't automatically assume that I am not a mulslim, I have seen enough enlightened muslims who are critical of Islam. But they are on different intellectual level and are actually intellectually honest, who don't contradict themselves in the same post..
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304, "the communication took place via an angel."
That's what you get when you are high on pot.
But I am not sure God did not talk to bin Laden. May be he is not a muslim (as many muslims allege) and God indeed talked to him perhaps. God works in mysterious ways.
The word "Palestinian" does not refer to race, it refers to a region. However, the problem of Israel and Palestine is based on religion not race. So your frequent vomiting of the word "racism" is nonsense. It's not arabs vs semites, since there are Arab Xians, jews who are not in fight against Israel (the ones in Israel).
Here I don;t think you are running away from Atheists. You are running away since you probably can not defend the religion anymore.
By the way you are using the word "reason", remember if a muslim uses the word "reason" certain number of times the Universe will explode/implode.
You tend to use neo-atheism a lot. Did you not have some fun with those works of art?
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# 286. At 00:28am on 08 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
No, not liking your refusal to believe that muslim women can also commit murder..and trust me, I have offered funeral prayers of some murdered people and never once I heard people talking such nonsense..if you want to score some cheap score about the shooting of this man by a woman, then you are way off the mark..No one is going to buy it, I suggest you try something else.
Of course Muslim women can commit murder. And in matriarchal tribes they also rule, are warriors and go bare faced. In any case, I am glad to hear you are not the least bit superstitious. So you won't mind if I mention that you never hear the Ghosts of the Desert coming. Now, deny away.
# 287. At 00:33am on 08 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
Those who dont know quran, shouldnt posts verses right , left and center..I suggest you focus on the blog topic. The non muslim quoting koran for 9 yrs is getting tirsome.. You want to believe that only non muslims hav the right to kill, and muslims dont have that right..
If you don't like non-Muslims quoting and discussing the Koran, you need to go only to Muslim controlled web sites. You don't want me or anyone else to speak freely, but you feel free to comment on western values, religion and culture - and you are not western. Therefore, you are a hypocrite. And a coward as well. Afraid to openly discuss the issues you yourself bring up.
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@ Interestedforeigner
Thanks for the reminder.
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A show of faith would be the Palestinians to turn over the Hamas war criminals and the Lebanese to turn over Nazarallah and the Saudi to pay compensation for Israel suffering with 50% of their oil profits.
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I guess you refuse to believe that the occupying forces know exactly the movements of even small ants in occupied areas, these so called hamas terrorists are big human beings, the occupying forces follow their day to day, second to second movement..they can kill those hamas wanted guys as they have done with the hamas party leaders..This show of faith is just another trick of the occupying forces to maintain their occupation..And it looks pathetic that an occupiar keeps on acting like a first class victim..If they feel unsafe, they can migrate back to their european homelands, I am sure europe will recive them with open arms and warmest hearts..
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So you won't mind if I mention that you never hear the Ghosts of the Desert coming. Now, deny away.
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I am not a desert dweller..And i feel free to comment on american culture I neither quote your consititution nor your bible...I run away from quoting other people's consititution or bibles..I have no need for that..
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Carry on telling us non Muslims that we need to convert to Islam in order to marry a Muslim then I shall be forced to set a genie on you.
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You dont want to marry a muslim then you dont worry about converstion..my expearnice tells me, that those non muslims who approach muslims with the intention of marriage, understand that,and they dont give muslims a headache of wanting to marry and not converting..Its a case of you like me and hate my religon...Like a case of those women who fall in love with a guy who has children but dislike his children..You cannot have your cake and eat it too.. those who dont, dont approach muslims for marriage..I dont understand why you have made it your personal problem..You have plenty of yours to marry and muslims have plenty of muslims to marry..
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Here I don;t think you are running away from Atheists. You are running away since you probably can not defend the religion anymore.
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Your thoughts are your private property, you have a right to think whatever you like..I told you what I do with the neo atheiests..and I am not a person who starts to act against my priniciples just because of someone's thoughts.I run away from neo athiests, and thats what I do when I see neo atheists trying to act like atheiests.. The original atheists dont get stuck in petty things or flung quotes from koran, they usually have read and understood koran or bible..they usually are concerned with their view point and less concerned with quoting koran or telling muslims that Mohammad married a 9 or 7 or 10 yr old..such things are discussed at the lower level, street level. or homeless level..
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I tried a few times yesterday to express my thoughts, but had too many feelings that weren't forming words. I probably still do, too - but here's a tip of the iceberg:
This shooting is really bad news.
It's bad for the base, the families, and the troops heading overseas.
It's bad for an already angry and hurting America.
It's bad for American Muslims who are already the brunt of prejudice.
It's bad for anyone in the world who might be prone to point a finger and say "see, THAT's why we shouldn't trust 'Those People'."
It's all just bad.
I hope people will take the time to recognize that violence plants seeds for future violence. If the Palestinian-American hadn't been treated badly, if he hadn't spent years listening to soldiers vent anger and fear of Muslim people, if he hadn't felt forced to go to Afghanistan against his will, if he had hadn't chosen violence, if, if, if...
But, before people simply blame the religion, we must remember a few things:
-- the bible has been used to justify plenty of murder and war and describes a flat earth, and there are many Christians who chose to read the bible literally, even when it talks about flat worlds, just war, slavery, head coverings, corporal punishment, etc...
-- there are almost as many expressions of Islamic tradition as there are of Christian traditions, and almost as many interpretations regarding dress, tradition, prayer, and expression of faith.
Not all Christians advocate in 'just war' and corporal punishment.
Not all Muslims advocate public attacks as political expression.
Hate Crimes are Terrorism - no matter who's pulling the trigger.
I saw a quote from the president earlier today praising the brave men and women, from many races and religions, who put themselves in danger and even sacrificed their lives to stop this man.
This is significant. It is in our diverse unity that we are strong. May it also be our means for healing and our means for breaking the repeating cycle of violence.
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304, colonelartist says
"I am sure about ben laden, because G-d doesnt talk to muslims"
I guess this comes out of Mohammad's words "no more prophets after me". But how are you so sure Mohammad was not lying. In fact you seem to have more faith in Mohammad than you have faith in Allah. That's the problem.
Why should we trust in these middlemen. If god needs to speak he can do it without these messengers. THat's why I am saying that if bin Laden claims God talked to him may be God did. Try to have an open mind.
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It seems that making a jest about islam and muslim has become so acceptable that people think that its alright to talk against them, disrespect them make jokes about them but if G-d forbids someone says anything against your nine eleven version of the story or your governments, he is raised at once to the level of terrorist or supporter of terrorism..The jews have changed the epicenter from europe but the perscicuting mentality of the europeans have not changed.. Seems like the whole ww2 was as purposeless as the war in iraq or afghanistan..
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317, colonelartist says "Mohammad married a 9 or 7 or 10 yr old..such things are discussed at the lower level, street level. or homeless level.."
Well truth hurts doesn't it. He did marry a 9 year old. (Read you Koran well). In our society(where we have sense of morality) we call this illness pedophilia.
I do have a nice house to live in.
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315. At 03:23am on 08 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
I am not a desert dweller.
Neither are we anymore. Well, some of us.
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Then I suggest you get back to the blog's topic..I have now seen how fondly and voluntarily you avail every opportunity to vent your feelings against islam..No wonder your leaders continue to wage nonsensical dont quixote kind of war against muslims..with citizens ready to accept every lame reason, none of your leader even needs to bother to come up with more complicated reasons for going to war against the muslims..
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Well truth hurts doesn't it. He did marry a 9 year old.
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Whatever gave you this impression? or you just say such stuff to make the muslims hurt? In that case allow me to burst your buble, no muslim gets get by this...Muslims know who he married and who he didnt marry and we dont want you to remind you of that..I hereby discharge you from this duty...Find some other, more creative ways to hurt...Muslims know that, if Mohammad had married 1000 wives or just one or not married at all, non muslims like you would still find some fault and do exactly what you are doing..Like I said, these things are getting boring now...find some other way to take out your repressed feelings..more challanging ones..
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This is significant. It is in our diverse unity that we are strong. May it also be our means for healing and our means for breaking the repeating cycle of violence.
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it takes only a few months to make this diverse unity into great divide..In the land called usa, this diversity is only 200 yrs ago...YOu have an example of iraq, where the diversity was turned into rivalry within a few days..And their diversity is more than thousaand yrs old..Same in afghanistan, where diversity was even older...The nations who play with diversity of other nations, should also remember that the same will one day happen to them as well...Maybe the divide in the making and you are too busy with other people's internal matters that when you will see it, it will be too late...
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Londonaussiebloke wrote:
"Another day, another massacre, another misunderstander of the religion-of-peace.... Of course religion is irrelevant, it could just as easily have been a Methodist, Buddhist or Hamish soldier, they blow themselves up all the time, too. Keep sticking your head in the sand, BBC."
Luckily it wasn't one of those more frequent US Postal worker attacks, Eric Rudolf copy-cat, a Hitler wannabe, or even all those Aussie settlers responsible for more Aboriginal deaths than all Islamic terrorism combined, because then you wouldn't be able to rant and rave incessantly about Muslims.
By and by - many accused of heinous and extensive war crimes against (Chinese) men, women and children were Imperial Japanese soldiers who were adherents of Mahayana Buddism. Just so you know. It's not cool to rant, you know, especially without knowing your facts.
Kudos for consistency though - another predictably irrelevent comment by Londonaussiebloke.
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318 Philly-Mom:
The Just War theory developed out of necessity; it goes back as far as the early medieval period, and it was a defensive response to all the war and violence that was literally tearing the late Western Roman Empire apart. Up until that time Christianity had been largely a non-violent religion that caused all sorts of military recruitment problems for the Empire.
I think the most telling story in the New Testament that proves that Christianity was never meant to be about crusades and inquisitions comes from Luke (9:5), "And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them." -Jesus.
There is another point I'd like to make here; The Afghan war isn't necessarily in violation of either the Just War theory or Luke (9:5). 1st, the Islamic terrorists attacked us 1st in cold blood.
2nd, we weren't looking to be received by Al Qaeda or the Taliban.
They are the modern day Vandals, destroyers of civilization.
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I woul just like to sat that the debate is great but do not get stupid.
PKKMRES don't call Mohammad a peodofile, thats low. It was many thousands of years ago and we know, and you have agrued yourself that times change and for all we know it was OK according to the wisdom of the time.
People still seem to be fixated on religion. I guess this is expected given the gravity of the recent past.
Islam does have its faults and I agree that it should relax its views on marrige and 'forced' conversions of non-muslims, but so should the catholic church. All religions have the same problems when it comes to modern thought, but thats also its major advantage, it gives people, myself included, a view of the world that isn't all hedonism and self involvement. Religion needs to modernise but people need to also look backwards.
In my opinion no religious text is the word of the specific God it is an interpretation, written sometimes a century after the actual event (Im not saying all parts of all religous texts), but it is the main guidelines ofr the belief in that God.
I've read the bible, Torah and i'm halfway through the Koran so forgive me it my thoughts are half made, but it seems to me with religion we should open it up to modern ways of thought and moral imperitives. Adultery is a bad thing by modern standards but not a capital crime, just some one falling for their desires. But considering the age of these documents that is relevent advice. Not touching the skin of a dead animal is a capital crime, it should have been then, what good sensible advice as they didn't have modern day hygeine.
Oh and I know I'm argueing both sides of the fence here, but anyone who says that islam is the religion of restriction on thought and not open to modern ideas. Islamic scholars were the first to document the helio-centric solar system 500years before copernicus even thought about it let alone Galileo. And seeing as this fact was only accepted my the Vatican in the 1970's (after we landed on the moon, for pity sake) what does that tell you.
Do I think Islam should modernise, yes.
Do I think Western Religions, for want of a better term, should look at themselves before calling the kettle black, yes.
Do you know how boring life would be if we were all the same, we just need to embrace there differences. I am not a patriotic Briton, infact I dislike alot of what is happening to the UK, but on one thing I am stauncley proud, and that is the UK being the most cultrually diverse place on the planet. Although we have teething troubles and somtimes there are flare ups, we live relativly peacefully and nothing made me prouder than all people of Britain, including our huge Muslim community standing united against the London bombings. The bombers wern't muslim by any way or means there were a bunch of lunatics.
In relation to the shootings at Fort Hood, these killings are awful, but it does not show a fractures nation. Americans and everyone should use this as a test of there ideals and acceptance of other ideals,
'The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants'
Unfortunatly the tree of liberty, was drenched on Friday by too many patriots and not enough tyrants, but use this to show that although it rocked America it will not shake it to the ground and everything that modern democratic faithfilled and faithless people hold dear will not be halted and only make it stronger.
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Also I've just read someone advocating the death penalty play the money card.
'I don't want to waste my money on keeping them alive for the rest of their lives'
Well I'd just like to say that the system including having a death penalty is (figures based on the state of Califoria), due to appeals, lawyer fees, average time spent on death row is $137,000,000 per year. Yet without a death penalty the cost of the system, based on average cost of Life incarceration would be $11,500,000. What a
I know what people are going to say, well get rid of all the appeals then! Yeah OK thats a fabulously bad idea.
One of the main disadvantages of the death penalty is this!
What if your wrong?
If your going to argue in favour of the death penalty, by all means you have relevent views and arguement, don't however play the money card because you could'nt be more wrong. I don't support the death penalty at all but I understand that people think that murdering and/or rape should be capital offences I can understand your point of view even if I don't share it.
Sorry of the rant
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it was a isolated incident because he was angry and scared of being deployed in afghanistan. remember he heard thousands of stories by thousands american soldiers who either saw killing or killed terrorist or innocent civilians.he was a human being he must had a impact of all those horrofic stories.i strongly rule out his deadly attack becaue he was a muslim. remember there were plenty of muslim americans died in these wars for sake of america.if any american think he did because he was muslim they must think twice before. fbi is investigating they will find out the truth. we must weigh his actions and timothy migveigh's actions who used his christain views to kill hundreds of people included small childrens.
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Londonaussiebloke wrote:
Another day, another massacre, another misunderstander of the religion-of-peace.... Of course religion is irrelevant, it could just as easily have been a Methodist, Buddhist or Hamish soldier, they blow themselves up all the time, too. Keep sticking your head in the sand, BBC.
He did not blow himself up, he shot a lot of other people just as another man did in Florida on the same day. Sadly this is all too common in America and not unrelated to the easy availability of guns in that country.
It is alarming and sad to read so many uninformed anti Muslim posts on this strand. Whatever Major Hasan's motives were, I hope this tragedy will not increase the persecution of Muslims in the USA.
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On a more positive note, the House of Representatives passed a comprehensive version of healthcare reform legislation last night. Hopefully, the insurance industry and its supporters will not undermine the effectiveness of this propposal by modifying the package to benefit private insurers.
Talks of filibuster are already circulating. Let's hope the Senate is sensitive to the millions of calls they have received from constituents nationwide and support the brave stand taken by the House.
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271 maria ashot
"Only atheists have actually killed more people -- within the context of Communism. "
Statistically true that maybe, but atheists do not (to my knowledge) kill in the name of atheism, but in the name of political "belief". In this respect communism as enforced by USSR, red China etc and other totalitarian doctrines are akin to religions.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief .... it is a void, a nothing, and cannot really be used a justification. Do atheists go around blowing up churches, mosques, temples, synogogues etc?
The problem with militant Islam is that it kills in the name of its God, as CHristianity did for the best part of 1600 years.
Religious beliefs are perverted by demogogues to scare people into actions.
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ref #332 DominickVila wrote:
On a more positive note, the House of Representatives passed a comprehensive version of healthcare reform legislation last night. Hopefully, the insurance industry and its supporters will not undermine the effectiveness of this propposal by modifying the package to benefit private insurers.
Talks of filibuster are already circulating. Let's hope the Senate is sensitive to the millions of calls they have received from constituents nationwide and support the brave stand taken by the House.
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Well first the bipartsianship on the House vote was the opposition where 37 Democrats passed the aisle. The house stand was not brave it did not allow untill the end any input from the Republicans. Pelosi promised to give people time to read the bill.
The way to avoid the fillabuster is to take into account the concerns of the Blue Dogs and Republicans. By writing his bill behind a lock door Harry Reid joined Pelosi is taking a polarizing coawardly position.
If they were truly interested in doing this in a bipartsian way, they would put tort reform on the table right now.
Pelosi, Reid and Obama are afraid to have an open and honest debate. If they did they might win over skeptics who they claim would benefit from this bill.
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irfan at post 330 wrote: “it was a isolated incident because he was angry and scared of being deployed in afghanistan..”
This is just wishful PC thinking, “Major Nidal Malik Hasan worshipped at a mosque led by a radical imam said to be a "spiritual adviser" to three of the hijackers who attacked America on Sept 11, 2001.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6521758/Fort-Hood-shooting-Texas-army-killer-linked-to-September-11-terrorists.html
Now because of the PC this will happen again, I’m willing to bet that the US army will want to show that they aren’t anti Muslim and will want to recruit even more Muslims, however any idea of screening Muslims to determine their loyalties will be seen as un-PC. Any attempt to try to determine their attachment to their Jihad ideologies will be ruled out as political incorrect.
Now a trick of the PC Left is to say that the PC does exist and will try to label their opponent as racist, thus we have the situation that I’ve written about above. Now the Jihadies know this and will now use the PC as another tool in their armoury to bring down our civilization.
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Ref 271, Maria
"Dr. Hasan may have imagined he could set off some kind of spark with his example. Or it may have been sufficient for him simply to bring, to American soil, the kind of direct "army of one" attack we have thus far primarily seen in israel, iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan."
I usually agree with much of what you say, but not this time. I suspect Dr. Hasan was traumatized by the events that have been taking place in the Middle East for decades, and found his impending deployment to Afghanistan totally unacceptable. Obviously, that is no excuse for what he did and does not justify in any way the killing of fellow soldiers or anyone else, but trying to rationalize his actions based strictly on his religion does not reflect reality.
In my opinion, the reaction of Muslims to the atrocities that are being carried out in the Persian Gulf is understandable, and I suspect we would act the same way under similar circumstances. Instead of focusing on the people that attacked us on 9/11, the way the Spaniards and British people reacted after the attacks on their homelands, we have lashed out against an entire culture, and judging by some of the posts I have read herein, it seems we want to expand the persecution of Muslims to our own country in defiance of our most cherished constitutional values.
On the issue of atheists killing more people than anyone else, I am not sure I agree with that. Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and even Idi Amin were not atheists. Their genocidal records are hard to match...
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"Life may become more uncomfortable for his innocent co-religionists, a regrettable consequence of any such attack."
A literal translation of the Koran shows it to be completely incompatable with the most basic notions of democracy and tolerance that is the foundation of American society. Moslems practicing in the US must find a way to reconcile their religion with the reality of our society. Moslems who want to be Americans whether they were born here or emigrated here have to accept that their first loyalty must be to the United States of America, not to what they perceive of as Islam. It is only natural for non Islamic Americans to be suspicious of Moslems living among us whether they are American citizens or not. We can never be sure where their real loyalties lie and whether they are the staunch allies of the rest of the American people we hope they are or allies of the most extreme terrorists who want to destroy American society and replace it with a world order ruled by the most literal expression of the Koran.
The terrorist who killed his fellow military servicemen and servicewomen in Texas betrayed himself as a traitor to America. What is more, nobody forced him to join the military, nobody kept it a secret that America has been in military conflicts with Islamic countries since 1991, and that you don't get to choose which wars you will be sent to fight in if you volunteer to join the military. Also this man who was a trained psychiatrist had never seen combat. His political loyalties were clear and they were not in favor of his nation. He will surely receive the death penalty. I'm hoping that among the charges brought against him, one is treason for which I have already concluded he is guilty.
The warning signs that this might and even could happen were evidently clear to a number of people who knew and observed him for some time but they ignored it because we are pressured to be politically correct, there are dangerous views we cannot criticize, say are unacceptable in our society even when they are a clear and present danger to us all. Until that changes our society will continue to be at risk and the certainty of increasingly severe attacks is assured. It is neither unprecedented for limits on freedom of expression or the range of views that are legitimate to be imposed especially in times of wars and other national emergencies. For example the Alien and Sedition Acts of the late 18th century were enacted shortly after the founding of the nation and some provisions are still law.
If the government cannot protect society here in America from threats which reach our shores then our society will as it has in the past take the law into its own hands as it knows that ultimately the people own the government here and not the other way around as it seems in other countries. This may lead to many terrible injustices but that is the price we pay for a government that does not see to the most basic function it is mandated to perform, the protection of its own citizens on their own soil.
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Ref 335, ex-Beebiod
"Now a trick of the PC Left is to say that the PC does exist and will try to label their opponent as racist, thus we have the situation that I’ve written about above."
I don't think our reaction has anything to do with racism, but there is definitely an element of cultural bias in our opinions for obvious reasons.
Judging by the decisions and actions of so many world leaders I think it is fair to say that should religious and political screening does take place - in violation of our Constitution - it should include members of ALL religious affiliations as well as non-believers.
Historical precedent, including current events, suggest violence and violations of human rights are not limited to a specific nation, culture or religion. It seems to be a fairly common human trait.
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In regard to Major Hasan there seems to be a lot of contradictions. some are saying he was an American first a msolem second. Other reports says he had extremist views this includes a report from an Iman at a mosque.
The more we hear it seems more likely this was a distrurbed indvidual than someone motivated by religous extremism.
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To day in the UK is remembrance day,for all who fell for our freedom.
The life that I have
is all that I have
And the life that I have
is yours.
The love that I have
of the life that I have
is yours and yours and yours.
A sleep I shall have
A rest I shall have
Yet death shall be but a pause.
For peace of my years
In the long green grass
Will the yours and yours and yours...
Leo Marks..
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Good to "see" you again Marcus. You remember we had a heated argument before 2008 elections.
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MarcusAureliusII #337
Good post,
All, there is good article about the dangers of the Political Correctness in the New York Post that lead to this tragedy.
Here's an extract:
Given the myriad warning signs, it's appalling that no action was taken against a man apparently known to praise suicide bombers and openly damn US policy.
It’s well worth a read.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/call_this_horror_by_its_name_islamist_HT78Wt6NkWoCGq5HIOwlII
Now be under no illusion that the PC ties our hands behind our backs making it difficult to defeat these extremist.
Because of Political Correctness more lives will be lost.
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UKW: Remembrance day is tomorrow for us.
Our independence was paid for at Ypres, Vimy, Dieppe, Ortona, Juno Beach, Caen, Falaise...
Here, every schoolchild learns this poem by heart - you probably know it well:
In Flanders fields
the poppies blow
Between the crosses,
row on row,
That mark our place;
while in the sky
The larks,
still bravely singing, fly.
Scarce heard amidst the guns below.
We are the dead.
Short days ago
We lived. Felt dawn
Saw sunset glow.
Loved. And were loved
And now we lie
in Flanders Fields
Take up our quarrel
with the foe:
To you from failing hands,
we throw
The torch;
be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with
us who die
We shall not sleep,
though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
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Ref 334, Magic
"Pelosi promised to give people time to read the bill"
This excuse is wearing thin by now. Unless Republican members of Congress flunked reading in elementary school, there is no way they could not have read and analyzed the various proposals that have been discussed during the past several months...with the participation of a few moderate Republicans.
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Yes it is possible for a deranged person with the proper training and firearms to fire that many rounds. the FN semiauto he used holds 20 rounds and is made for high speed reloading. That plus a revolver equals plenty of chaos. The US had at one time a ban on high capacity magazines for these weapons, but I doubt that as a military man that ban would have prevented him from getting his hands on an even more effective weapon. There is no defense against insanity as the suicide bombers have shown us. That being said anything over 10 rounds should be banned except for police or military use. Even the police shooting events I used to participate in use lower capacity magazines. Despite the 2nd Amendment we should at least attempt to limit the carnage.
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uninteresting foreigner;
"Our independence was paid for at Ypres, Vimy, Dieppe, Ortona, Juno Beach, Caen, Falaise..."
Evidently it isn't worth much. Gordon Brown signed it away all on his own with the stroke of a pen and there was hardly a peep from anyone in the UK. Surrender seems to be a habit with the Brits, they did the same thing about 70 years earlier at Munich. That's what comes from hanging around the French too much, you start to think like them.
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ref #344
This excuse is wearing thin by now. Unless Republican members of Congress flunked reading in elementary school, there is no way they could not have read and analyzed the various proposals that have been discussed during the past several months...with the participation of a few moderate Republicans.
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Untrue that charge is not only from republicans but a percentage of democrats. That is why a majority of American want healthcare reform but do not trust the current versions because of the seacracy.
Nancy Pelosi and her agenda does not represent the majority of Americans.
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337. At 12:18pm on 08 Nov 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"... The warning signs that this might and even could happen were evidently clear to a number of people who knew and observed him for some time but they ignored it because we are pressured to be politically correct, there are dangerous views we cannot criticize, say are unacceptable in our society even when they are a clear and present danger to us all. Until that changes our society will continue to be at risk and the certainty of increasingly severe attacks is assured.
It is neither unprecedented for limits on freedom of expression or the range of views that are legitimate to be imposed especially in times of wars and other national emergencies."
"... This may lead to many terrible injustices but that is the price we pay for a government that does not see to the most basic function it is mandated to perform, the protection of its own citizens on their own soil."
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Several posters here have made point similar to those made by Marcus that there were plenty of clear warning signs.
Marcus ties that point together with the duty of government to protect the citizenry from threats, and points out that unless something is done, the attacks will continue to get worse.
I don't disagree with those points, but rather than throwing out the Bill of Rights (which some of us consider to be among America's greatest strengths, and a beacon of hope well beyond America's shores), it seems to me to highlight a different issue.
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First, in many western democracies Freedom of Speech is already subject to certain limitations. Freedom of Speech does not give a license the right either negligently, or recklessly, or intentionally to endanger the safety of others. It does not protect hate speech. It does not protect speech that incites, encourages, or condones violence.
(I have an issue with the moderators here on that subject, because I believe they have allowed entire strings of postings that encourage, or condone violence, and that foment ethnic or religious hatred, but I'll leave that for another time.)
I do not believe that the solution to the present problem lies in further curtailment of Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Belief, or Freedom of Conscience beyond the limits of those rights that already exist in law.
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Over about the last 250 postings, the blog has gone into an almost hysterical spiral on the topic of the danger of Radical Islam. And, as if the natural tendency to do that were not enough, there are some posters here who seem to delight in deliberately throwing gasoline on that particular fire.
You have to ask yourself about the motivation of posters who, in a time of tragedy and grief appear to think only of goading and enraging others.
Is somebody like that ever going to achieve anything in life?
Would you ever want somebody like that as your co-worker or neighbour?
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Let's hold on a minute. We don't have all the facts, and it is unlikely that we are going to achieve anything positive by getting ourselves wound up into an anti-Islamic feeding frenzy, that can then be turned around and characterized as "proof" of Western hatred and prejudice against Islam, often by the very same people who spare no effort to provoke just such a reaction.
We often have a tendency to head off on self-indulgent binges of McCarthyism. Hold on a minute. Let's not forget that we have one of the most open and tolerant societies on earth. Our openness and tolerance is not a weakness. It is one of our greatest strengths.
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Marcus says (much as others have said) that if there were warning signs, we should have taken precautions.
Amen to that, Marcus.
But it seems to me that while we have very little control over the religious beliefs of citizens (let alone foreigners), America has lots of opportunity to reduce the opportunities for tragedies like this to occur.
In 250 postings, there have only been a handful - notably Carolina Lady at 194 - who have kept their eye on the ball.
These shooting rampages occur every single year, sometimes more than once a year.
This time is may be an Islamic wacko.
The next time it is some laid of worker with mental health issues who goes postal at the former workplace.
Another time it is a white supremacist.
Another time it is a former spouse or lover.
Another time it is a disaffected schoolshild who decides to take it out on everybody at his (and it is almost always "his") school.
In the last half century, the total number of Americans killed as a result of terrorist attacks, even including military deaths in Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanistan, doesn't top 15,000, probably not 10,000.
Over the same period of time something on the order of 1,100,000 Americans, or more, have been killed on American soil by firearms.
Let's see
10,000 killed by terrorists
1,000,000+ killed by firearms in America.
Hmmm.
Now which one constitutes the greater threat to the safety and security of Americans?
And Marcus tells us that it is inexcusable that the government is failing to protect Americans from threats to their safety and security.
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