Republican revival in Virginia?
Aubrey Newman, dressed in camouflage from head to toe, his rifle by his side, is squeaking diligently. He's using two small gadgets hung around his neck, which appear to work on the principle of a finger nail on a blackboard, to reproduce the call of a wild turkey.
It's a beautiful day to be sitting underneath the trees in the hot autumn sunshine of the Roanoke valley in Virginia. Even if no shots are fired, and no turkeys answer the call, staring out at the woods turning gold, red and orange is reward enough.
Aubrey and his cousin Leon have already voted by post in the election to choose a new governor for the state of Virginia. They knew they would be out in the woods on election day. But they are confident that their man, the Republican candidate, Bob McDonnell, will get the job. They're probably right: it's certainly what the polls suggest.
Virginia went Democratic - voted Obama - last year but, on the anniversary of that victory, looks set to return to the Republicans. The Newman cousins insist that it's the start of a Republican revival. Neither of them voted for Obama but they both tell me they are disappointed with the president.
Leon says: "I don't think he's done anything for me and I don't think he's done much for the country. This health care package, it's certainly not going to do anything for the retired people, it's certainly going to cost us money."
Aubrey is even more forthright: "I don't like some of the things our president has proposed. I have never believed in socialism and it looks like we're going into socialism."
This is not the only test for the president today. There is another governor's race in New Jersey and a congressional election in New York. The results will be taken by some as a referendum on President Obama's first nine months in office.
It is certainly a good opportunity to look at how he is seen, a year after that momentous election - and if his party does badly in some or all of the contests, it will be taken as a portent by many.
But a number of words of caution. Virginia is contrary, and since the 1970s has elected a governor of a different political hue to the one in the White House.
Not even Reagan at his most popular bucked this tendency. Much will depend on turnout, at a time when the Democrats have had a big victory and are exhausted.
Then, these are not British by-elections. People are not choosing representatives but rulers, who can raise or lower their taxes. So the candidates and local issues really do matter. And one candidate seems way ahead.
"Go Bob, Go Bob, GO!" Supporters shout with enthusiasm as the dapper and neatly coiffured figure of Republican contender Bob McDonnell emerges from Roanoke airport to a small but enthusiastic crowd. Commentators are pretty much united that he's the better candidate with a better campaign. The Democrat Creigh Deeds started negative and never really took off.
But if this is about how to run Virginia, it is striking how much McDonnell talks about national issues. It's true someone in his campaign team mentions the need to re-open restrooms along a certain highway, and he praises the virtues of education and off-shore drilling. But his main message is:
"We know Virginians are hurting and there's an economic down but we don't believe the answer is more big government taxes and programmes. That's not the secret to turning this economy round, it's more limited government and free enterprise and private sector solutions to allow people to use their God-given talents to pursue the American dream. That's how we turn this economy around."
That he mentions he is the National Rifle Association-endorsed candidate probably doesn't do any harm with the men in camouflage turning up for a coffee or coke at the Old Mill Country Store, after a hard morning's turkey or deer hunting. Most are planning to vote Republican.
But Shirley Naday, filling up her car at the store, voted for Obama last year and she shares their worries about the president. She tells me: "In the beginning I was for him and I thought he was going to do a great job. But I don't know now, don't know if he's going to do anything. He's kind of disappointed me."
I, of course, find some who are enthusiastic about the president even in this very conservative part of the state but here are some of my general thoughts. Many just don't know what is going on over healthcare, and what it will mean. Many worry about government spending, particularly if they are are not seeing results. Republicans have their tails up while some of Obama's supporters are waiting nervously for things to get better and so may stay at home rather than vote.
But more when we know the results tomorrow.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
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A few points:
Virginia is a purple state, it can go either way.
The Democratic canidate is a poor one, team Obama wrote him off.
The NJ race is more interesting as that is a blue state and for the Dems to lose would mean something. Note to NJ Corzine made his money from financial institutions so derided on this board.
Finally don't make too much of this even if the Republicans sweep these and the NY rep race.
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Virginia is notorious for its independent political nature and its conservative leanings. Don't read too much into this.
There is a good battle going on in NY where a moderate Republican was sidelined by the GOP in favor of a more conservative candidate and the "ousted" candidate is now endorsing the Democratic frontrunner. As Magic pointed out, NJ is also a much more interesting state to watch.
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What short memories!! How many people said when Obama was elected, 'yes, we will give him time, as he has been dealt a terrible set of cards.' With the drastic economic hand that Obama was dealt, it will require him to be both courageous and have political luck for him to have any hope of balancing the books at the end of his first term. So when, in the article, Leon says, 'he hasn't done anything for me', he really should be asking why doesn't that seem to be the case, and the answer would be down to the economic mismanagement of the Bush era that mislaid so much of a strong foundation built up by Bill Clinton.
It would seem also that the President is actually being punished for attempting to tackle the elephant in the room - health care - during his first year in office, and yet this is precisely what he should be doing. In the UK, where review of the Blair years is taking place, many have commented that, in his first term, when he had the will of the people behind him after the stagnation of the Conservative Government, he should have been more brave, and really attempted to put in a more radical agenda of New Labour; he may have avoided the economic bust 10 years later under his successor if had done so. Maybe the benefit of President Obama's tackling of the difficult issues, amongst a very fickle and 'short-memoried' electorate, will be reaped by a future President (who will no doubt claim the success as his/her own).
Mark - just on this note - during your time covering politics throughout the world, have you sensed an increasing short-termism creep in, or has this always been the way? If it has crept in, is this because of the internet needing instant results/comment etc., and the fast food culture.....???? Some tastes are only released by cooking something slowly......
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Ref 3, Brian
Hopefully enough people will realize that while it is not too difficult to destroy a good economy - and wipe out a budget surplus - in 9 months, it is not easy to repair the damage in the same length of time; particularly when a President has to deal with a society that wants the best money can buy but refuses to pay for the services and benefits they get.
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I voted for McDonnell this morning... this is no comment on Obama, the Democratic Congress or any other national political figure. I voted for McDonnell for the simple old fashion reason that I feel he is the better candidate for Virginia right now.
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ref #2
Dominick on NY.
A issue of note, the Republican pick was picked by party bosses and is very liberal for a republican, not just social issues, bot on the economy.
the Dems will try to make this into the extremists taking over.
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I hear my fellow Americans talk about socialism as if it's the plaque. I'm not sure whether some of them even understand the term and if they do, why they fear it so much. Many say it doesn't work yet many countries have elements of it and thrive. I'm not convinced it's necessarily the best idea however the greed and corruption we see all around us is not something that I would want to prolong either.
I don't have all the facts but I expect that many Americans live on a joint annual income of less than $100,000.
We see medicare fraud in the millions, financial institutions handing out annual BONUSES (not salary) of millions after receiving taxpayer money. People who helped cause the problems being rewarded to the tune of millions. We see politicians with huge financial conflicts of interest. We see two wars being fought with no end in sight costing billions of dollars that we don't have. We see increasing numbers of homeless Americans. We see people lose their homes, lose their jobs and lose their medical insurance. We pay thousands of dollars to a hospital if we get sick ($10,000/night). The hospitals are inefficient and don't care.
We have a president that we can be proud of. He has been in the job less than a year and is making progress on a number of difficult fronts. I am glad that he has another three years and I expect that he will continue to make progress. I hope he gets to stay for 8 years because I think he is a thinking, compassionate and intelligent man who wants to make positive change. Lord knows we need it!
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I love when people say things like, I am not sure what the President has done. Just another indication of the poor education Americans get, it takes congress and the President to do something.
Can you imagine the uproar if the President could push their own personal agenda. Oh, I forgot we just had a President like that, he was able to use fear though and people just aren't that scared about losing their jobs, savings, homes and health.
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ref #3
Well what did you expect?
Obama's landslide came due to disatisfaction with the economy. He would have won without it but that was the tipping point last Oct.
It is more partsian now than under Bush and more crrupt as well
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The President rode in on a wave of war weariness and a huge anti-Bush feeling in the country as a whole. Promising something new and refreshing, he has unfortunately played the Chicago machine politics of Axelrod and Emanual. His superb campaign has sadly been carried over to the governing of the nation, with partisan sniping and the demonization of large portions of the American electorate. He and his people obviously mistook the desire for a change with a mandate for severe change, and they were wrong. They managed to awaken a sleeping giant in the US population, and disappoint many of the folks who put the administration in office.
The backlash has been under-reported and underestimated in the US and the rest of the world. The Dems will get their political butts kicked in 2010 unless they radically change their style and substance. 'The Chicago Way' only works in the corrupt corridors of that particular city, and isn't much appreciated in the rest of the US.
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Mark makes a good point, the president and congress are required to make things happen. Personal agendas are always in play. Don't forget most of our politicians are lawyers. They know how to spin a yarn.
I think it is detrimental to my health to follow much more of the news. There's little any of us can do but lead our lives and help others to the best of our ability. There's no stopping the greed or the corruption in my lifetime. I'll continue to vote and try to make a difference in my small world and keep my health and sanity.
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If you agree with the party of "NO", Let's cut taxes some more, you must really want to live in a third world country without moving.
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Because there is no requirement for truth in politics candidates in Virginia have always played on the worst in people to get elected. There are two Virginia's, the Fertile Cressant along the Eastern part of the state and the rest of Virginia, rural and very conservative. Virginia's sorted history and miminmal educational system creates a level of ignorance that politicians love. The state ranks very low in support of soical programs while being a high recipient of federal dollars. It is always interesting that Republicans get elected by condemning the federal government but rely on the federal government for most of the funding and cry when cuts are made. Virginia remains an oligarchy. Political fifedoms abound and old time politics based on division and race are the main drivers. Bush/Cheney cabal may have been the worst duo in American political history, so bad that Obama won in Virginia. If not for the federal government installations and funding, Virginia would be Arkansas.
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Our greatest problem in America is the out of control financial deficit. Mark, we don't have "government spending", we have GOVERNMENT BORROWING and it is WILD, and surely has bankrupted our country already. Our news media just have not made that announcement. We are BANKRUPT. SO STOP BORROWING.
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Mark: '"these are not British by-elections. People are not choosing representatives but rulers, who can raise or lower their taxes."
And do, or used to be able to do before the federal government took over a lot of their responsibilities, a whole lot of other stuff such as introduce laws governing criminal behavior etc.
You're right that the guvernatorial races aren't the equivalent of British by-elections, but the Congressional (races for both the House of Representatives and the Senate) are, of which you had correctly observed one is taking place in New York. So in a way one American by-election is taking place today, and some may read that as an indicator of how the people feel the president is doing so far.
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Mark, like you I have recently moved to the US (Virginia) from the UK and have been amazed and fascinated by the Virginia Governor's campaign. Political advertising is very different here. I have discovered when listening to the radio that the name being repeated over and over during the advert, be it Creigh Deeds (first name pronounced Cree) or Bob McDonnell, is the name of the person who should NOT be voted for. The name that you hear once, is apparently the name you should try to remember.
Also the American idea of socialism has amazed me. I get the impression that, based on the American concept, even Margaret Thatcher would have been considered a raving socialist, simply because she believed that there were some social issues it was appropriate for Government to be involved in.
My only other observation, is that I am still coming to terms with the whole idea of each State being independent. The best way I have come to terms with this, is that where I now live is more like the EU, and Virginia is like the UK. Consequently in the Governor's election, a statement of a desire for small government is reasonable, Virginia has it's own government, and the Governor believes that it should be small. He may also believe that that applies to the federal government, but that's just like British MP's going on about Europe during a General Election. The words may appeal to some voters, but the domestic agenda will not be affected by their opinion.
Keep up the good posts, I'm enjoying figuring out this country with you.
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#7, 10, 13 - Agree this 'soshulism' battle cry is a shame. Government policies or laws that establish some form of social or consumer benefit, even if tax money is used, is an element of democratic government not 'socialism' which in its purest form I think precludes private ownership of property (Native American tribal structure would be a good example). Even more of a shame is the fact that this 'greed button' is so effective on so many of our brothers....ICK YUCK.
Lenin said "If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years."
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John Pugh #12: '"There's little any of us can do but lead our lives and help others to the best of our ability. There's no stopping the greed or the corruption in my lifetime. I'll continue to vote and try to make a difference in my small world and keep my health and sanity."
No don't give up! You can do more than just vote. You can pressure
your elected representatives.
You can perhaps run for office yourself one day. Lets work together to insure that the United States of America is no longer, in so very many many ways, the black sheep of the international comunity...from capital punishment to health care to welfare.
Would any of my fellow British bloggers on here please be so kind as to inform this uneducated yank on what the British government does for its unemployed? Does it pay for their housing or through its inaction, force them into homeless shelters? How much a month is the average welfare recipiant given in the UK? Does anyone know? I would greatly appreciate it!! Thank You.
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I don't care if it takes a thousand years for the government to pay off the debt. If we can bail out the rich, we can take care of the poor. Last I checked, taking care of the poor is a fundamental tenet of most major religions and certainly Christianity.
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I voted in Virginia this morning for the Democrat, Creigh Deeds, solely based on local issues.
Northern Virginia, the economic powerhouse of the state, has significant transportation problems that require leadership in Richmond to solve. As the Washington Post's endorsement of Creigh Deeds pointed out, Deeds is the only of the two candidates to offer a serious proposal to fix the transportation system.
From supporting construction of the Metro's Silver Line through Tyson's Corner to Dulles Int'l Airport, expanding VRE service, and improving the roads, Deeds has a realistic plan towards fixing the Commonwealth's transportation system. His opponent, Bob McDonnell, does not have a serious and realistic plan in my opinion (and according to The Post's opinion page).
I also support Deeds' plan for increasing the number of in-state students in the Commonwealth's different state colleges.
Neither of these issues has anything to do with the President or the US Congress.
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#1: I don't usually agree with Magic Kirin, but Virginia, along with NC, is indeed a purple state -- if you're using the BLUE for Democrats/RED for Republicans meme popular with American media. Last year, the Democrats and Barack Obama energized the younger voters, the minorities, the disenchanted middle-of-the-roaders who usually vote for Republicans because "everyone else does" and the truly independent souls who are unpredictably weird in their patterns. That sort of turnout doesn't usually vote in mid-term, non-Presidential elections.
The point about the Virginia Republicans voicing "national" issues vs. local issues is a telling one. It points toward the disintigration of the GOP over social vs. economic conservatism: something that we could see coming ever since the religious right became a political force. You'll notice the official Republican candidate dropped out of the NY 23rd District race...and the interviews with Dick Armey's and Sarah Palin's (and since when do they get to choose?) "Conservative" candidate show him woefully stupid on the local issues but parroting the national talking points word perfect.
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You need to be aware that this is a very odd set of off-year elections. A by-election in the most Republican seat in the northeastern US, between an independent running with the Democratic party endorsement and two Republicans that hate each other, the weaker of whom has now dropped out. A gubernatorial election in VIrginia in which the Democratic candidate is the one with the weakest organization, the one the party establishment did not want, and who has run an awful campaign that consists of agreeing with the Republican and alienating core Democratic voters. And a gubernatorial election in New Jersey, one of the more affected states by the financial crisis, in which the Democratic incumbent is the former CEO of Goldman Sachs, and communicates entirely in impenetrable academic verbiage of five syllables or more.
Under the circumstances, it would be notable if the Democrats were to win any of these three races.
Also, you should have interviewed some people in Virginia who actually voted for Obama . . .
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Mark I have to be honest with you. You're paying attention to the wrong race. By far, the most interesting race this election season is the special election to fill the vacant seat in the 23rd Congressional District here in New York. This district, which straddles the Canadian border, was being contested by three candidates until a few days ago; when Republican Candidate Dede Scozafava dropped out of the race and endorced Democratic Candidate Bill Owens.
The interesting thing about this race is that many conservative memembers of the Republican Party including Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Dick Armey, Michele Bachman and Fred Thompson have all endorsed and or campaigned for the Conservative Party candidate Doug Hoffman a wealthy business man who doesn't even live in the district. He maintains a summer home within the district but his main residence is actually in Lake Placid. The reason they chose to back the third is because they felt that Scozafava (I appologize if I have misspelled her name) was too liberal on social issues to beconsidered a "republican."
This poses a problem for the Republican party as they seem to be ideologiccal purity than they are in passing legislation. The problem with this is that you can not get many candidates elected and you definately can not get your legislative agenda passed. The Republicans seem to be more interested in getting rid of moderates. Because of this many moderate republicans such as Lincoln Chaney are no longer involved in politics. It's really a shame.
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I see most of the comments are from the liberals which isn't surprising.
I also see the BBC chooses to show the usual stereotyped republican with a gun which also isn't surprising.
And you talk about republicans as being the party of fear and "No".
Socialistic policies such as talking money from the people who earn it to give it to people who don't should ALWAYS be opposed and said "NO" to.
The way liberals keep their power is subjugating people by having them depend on the government for things they should be providing for themselves.
Keep your government hand-outs and I'll keep my freedom.
The next 2 major elections will reaffirm that the American people haven't yet lost their way despite a stacked deck by a corrupt media.
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I want my country back, the one where we had a 90% upper tax bracket for the wealthiest, our roads were good, our telecommunication system worked, transportation was not just by automobile and energy was regulated.
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Oh dear... where do I begin.
I was born in Arlington County, just outside of DC, and was raised in a small town in Northern Virginia. My public school competed against regional and state band, football, debate team. Then, while so many of my friends attended VA State Schools or VA Private Universities... but I crossed the Mason Dixon Line to the NORTH for College and I never really went back.
... except to visit my family. They all still live there.
So, here's the socio-political scoop on Ole' Virginny:
-- The state was the Capitol of the Confederate seperationists.
-- Most folks living in VA now don't really care about that.
-- VA Universities are some of the best in the South-East US and arguably some of the best in the States.
-- Most folks who have lived in VA for generations are cultural & fiscal 'conservatives': farmers, small town folks, light industry, all-around good 'ole rural Americans. Ain't nuthin' wrong with it, ya hear?
-- In the past 30 years, VA has had a boom in information industry, metro suburbanization, gov't subcontractor head quarters, and increased higher education. The state has gotten a bit younger, wealthier, and more educated.
-- what was once culturally 'black and white' is now fairly multi-cultural and international.
Virginia is a very interesting example of our current national identity crisis. There are Fiscal/Religious Conservatives of Color, Green-Rainbow Liberal Caucasians, Gun-Totin' Libertarian/Republican WASPs, and Globally Minded Information-Generation Voters of all races from all continents.
And this is a relatively new (inter-)cultural phenomenon, so our polls are a bit out of whack. Oops.
So - I have no idea how this election will pan out.
The last time I voted in VA was for Mr. Clinton's first term.
He won the presidency (as you may have noticed), but I can't remember whether he won the state...
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22. Rob D:
Agreed, honey. Getting from Purcellville to DC is such a pain in the rear, the folks tell me I'm better off getting a hotel in town if I want to take the kids to the Smithsonians. So much for crashing at their pad for some Government Provided (Free) World Class Museum-Going. Bummer.
I'm driving to Fredricksburg the night before Thanksgiving and expect to sit in traffic for hours. My carbon footprint will be horrible. I'm dreadfully ashamed.
So... given that there are (IMHO) so many socially liberal fiscal conservatives in VA, any predictions for poll-outcomes?
Dem-NoVa.Local, Rep-VA.State, Dem-Federal? Maybe?
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Former Speaker of the House "Tip" O'Neill once said that "all politics is local" (a sentiment he later attributed to his father). The number of contests held today is far too small to be an indicator of a trend. Each will be decided by circumstances unique to the particular contest.
The governors' races are not particularly interesting nationally, because the issues are strictly local.
The House of Representatives contest in New York is the most interesting. New York is one state with more than two significant parties. The seat is for a Republican district, but the Republican candidate has been forced out of the race by the Conservative candidate; the Republican then endorsed the Democratic candidate. Whether her voters will follow her or stay home, or vote for the Conservative, is what remains to be seen.
The HR seat in California is for a strongly Democratic district. If the Democratic candidate loses there, the Republicans will no doubt try to read something into it.
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We're in a bit of a spot here in the former colonies. Unlike parliamentary systems, ours is locked into two parties, and that has failed us over the decades. It appears the Repubs are fracturing into Conservatives and something else. The failure of their policies is apparent to anyone who isn't a pure idiot, but these folks are afraid of the Democrats. As for those D's...they're struggling with the members who are Dems in name only and the true progressives. It's a mess!
As a die-hard Socialist, I'm hoping the whole ball of wax melts down. What this country needs (to paraphrase Coolidge) is a good old fashioned revolution. The ultra-rich, the corporatist fascists, the Bible-thumping-racists-anti-change folks just need to go to the wall. Worked for Europe, didn't it?
Why didn't you Brits have a revolution, anyway?
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The most important contest this week is in The Bronx (NYC) between the Phillies and the Yankees. I'm hoping the Phillies prevail, but it's going to be difficult without a solid closer.
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#31, RP, we brits did have a revolution. You may have heard of it, some call in the revolutionary war.
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"Then, these are not British by-elections. People are not choosing representatives but rulers, who can raise or lower their taxes. So the candidates and local issues really do matter. ..."
This is a peculiar statement by Mr. Mardell, perhaps an artifact of his hailing from a monarchy. Americans do not have "rulers," except in the form of a device for measuring length.
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Who cares who Virginia elects as Governor unless you live in Virgina.I feel bad for any Governor,they are torn between raising taxes to cover checks for services because more people need them right not and having less tax revenue,or tax cuts to businesses so the states can fight over what's left of Domestic job market the federal government and Corporations haven't shipped overseas.The Federal Government keeps making business,banking,health care,education,etc...while leaving State governments to pick up the Checks for it all while letting businesses take for the revenue by laying off workers.However I don't think who ever they elect in Virginia is a reflection of Obama but of the DNC who have had the Congress since 2006,Have taking forever to write health care while ignoring middle class Americans especially Workers and under 35 voters who are a big number for them.DNC hasn't only passed liberal crap and nothing to protect Workers or Americans from business interests.I think it reflects Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid more and their incompetence.However no matter how mad I am at DNC I am not voting for GOP.Both these parties are good for nothing and only cater to the most extreme members of their party.But Michigan's big elections are a little ways off so when the this region does have elections closer that's when you'll see DNC actually care about workers when they need to trick us out of our vote again.Unfortunately until the Federal Government starts being effective it's going to keep costing states money,jobs,and resources.They have to follow Federal laws but can't change them.We need better federal representation.
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Rockmon....TWISTED. GOT to git me some of that talking money. Is that your political alternative to a form of government that addresses social concerns, the political theory that money talks? I hate that aspect of politics in the lovely US of A.
And maybe you ARE right about taking money from the HAVES (who of course earned every penny of it) and giving it to the poor HAVE NOTS (who of course could be rich too if they would just work a little bit harder goshdarnit)....I KNEW Robin Hood and the Church were red commie socialist b***ds.
Now as for liberals subjugating people by giving them things ... hmmmm, sounds interesting, and yet very similar to the theory that money talks.
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One of my biggest problems is not that we have a debt but that it's held by foreign countries.After WW2 we had a large debt and large taxes as well but American citizens owned a lot of it by way of Bonds.I wish Obama would start a national Bond campaign and make it easier to purchase bonds.Americans would be better off owning our own debt.
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Ref 25 AmericanSportFan-
"By far, the most interesting race this election season is the special election to fill the vacant seat in the 23rd Congressional District here in New York. This district, which straddles the Canadian border..."
The 23rd Congressional District must have some very interesting poll results if it "straddles" the Canadian border. LBJ once had his district set up like that in Texas. Legend has it his party machine would load up vehicles full of Mexican citizens for transport across the border to vote for Mr. Johnson. Libations were provided for the new, temporary U.S. citizens.
Old LBJ had an uncanny knack for predicting his victory margin well in advance of elections. An even more uncanny knack for the predictions to come true to within a point, or two of his advanced prediction.
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By the way, if Mr. Newman is actually hunting wild turkey, he no doubt is using a shotgun, not a "rifle."
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Ref 33 seanspa-
"#31, RP, we brits did have a revolution."
Is that why those guys on the other side of the firing line wore red coats? British colonists were rebelling against British loyalists?
:-D
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Rec #7
"I don't have all the facts but I expect that many Americans live on a joint annual income of less than $100,000."
Then I have news for you: there are plenty of Americans making more than $100,000.00 individually; and they are not bankers, lawyers or doctors.
They're simply well educated, well informed, highly skilled professionals who are politically active, vote and donate to political campaigns of their favourites.
Their influence increases, while the one of those with poor education and mediocre skills decreases as they are being gradually replaced by robots and computers.
The Incovenient Truth, to use al Gore's parlance, but truth nevertheless.
P.S. There's not going to be any health "reform". Not if Democrats in Congress have anything to say about it.
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Ref 39 GH1618-
Does look to be a 12-gauge semi-automatic shot gun in the picture.
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Special elections and by-elections are generally sparsely attended and, as with the primaries, only the hardcore party members and political junkies tend to come out to vote. Fair enough. They've actually been following the issues closely and are less likely to be swayed by advertising and sound bites. Of course, the problem with that is that most hardcore party members are also straight ticket voters. (This references the old voting machines where you only had to press one lever to vote for everyone running on the same ticket, including judges, sheriffs and dog catchers.)
Politicians love straight ticket voters, be they Democrat or Republican, because they tend to be the party faithful. Like those two Republican men in Virginia, they vote the way they have always voted, because they believe in the ideals of their particular party, if not the actual politician running. The rise of Independent voters has thrown this system into disarray. And, as Philly-Mom suggests, places that are experiencing social upheavals tend to vote unpredictably until the population stabilizes.
In the case of the special election in New York's District 23, that's even harder to accept as a measure of how the nation might vote in 2010. Americans don't like it when outsiders tell them how they ought to vote. When Bush was running for a second term against Kerry, one small town in Britain decided to email Americans in a swing state begging them to vote Democratic for the sake of the world. Bad idea. All they did was piss people off, and those that were undecided voted for Bush. I won't even get into the number of very rude and shocking replies their emails garnered from people who were incensed. The rest of the world may believe that how America votes is important to them, but Americans don't. We just don't see how that matters. Foreign policy is generally the least important factor Americans consider when voting. And if we are voting on foreign policy it's because we're flush, content with our lives and have the leisure to consider other, less pressing matters.
American elections, even at the national level, are still local elections. And given that District 23 is a very local election, though for a national office, I wouldn't be surprised if those who wouldn't have voted normally, and certainly not voted Democratic normally, come out to vote just because they're angry over the outside interference in what they consider to be a local political matter. Dede Scozzafava's endorsement of the Democratic candidate is very indicative of the mood the moderate Republican locals are probably in. And as far as the they are probably concerned, having a local Democrat in office for a couple of years is likely preferable to having a bunch of outsiders come in, interfere with their election and tell them how to vote. There are lots of registered voters who only vote in the General Election every four years, but they can still be moved to vote in large numbers in by elections to show their ire - and they aren't the likely voters most pollsters call.
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Today is a skirmish in the war over the core values of America.
Imo if Obama is unable to get through the changes this nation needs to protect its own citizens from the corporations and the ultra wealthy ... then America will fail.
It would become yet another nation with a wide economic split between the haves and have nots and the poor and uneducated will eventually pull the nation down.
People who want the kind of "freedom" that leaves some people in poverty think they can use the business model of firing those that are weak from the corporation or business. But people with problems continue in the society and the problems become worse if unaddressed by the government.
“What we face is above all a moral issue; at stake are not just the details of policy, but fundamental principles of social justice and the character of our country.”
Edward Kennedy
It may be that some areas of the US will have to fail in order for them to realize how empty their philosophy is.
I'd like to see an end to the Republican party and the Democratic party split into 2 parties.
I hope Corzine wins in NJ and the race in NY is interesting. The right wing has sent their people up there (including Palin) to support a conservative who may not be knowledgeable about local issues.
Now I'll go vote ...
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37
"One of my biggest problems is not that we have a debt but that it's held by foreign countries."
well who else would hold that sort of debt.? Trillions. I'll lend a fiver.
Creating a business that big might JUST break anti trust laws somehow.
Rockmon.
Is that name derived from the brain you think you have.
"Socialistic policies such as talking money from the people who earn it to give it to people who don't should ALWAYS be opposed and said "NO" to."
So you are saying give the money to the hard workers?
They earn it.
So lets see. How much energy does it take to push papers, and how much energy is used to lift a100 lb load every 12 minutes after welding them?
Oh I notice you didn't mention WORK but mentioned Earned.
Now I ask why is it that those that WORK the most do not get paid the most.
Why is it the fire fighters that save your life when called for get paid less than the guy who sues you for no reason?
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7, 41 - just check the income stats (specially the 'inequlity of income' stats and narrative)
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income.html
or for nice charts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States
Though perhaps these statistics are all part of an ACORN conspiracy
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I do hope all registered, well-informed, U.S. voters posting, or following along, on this blog have gone out and exercised their franchise in the elections taking place today. Your Community, State, and Country needs your participation. Not just your opinion posted on a blog.
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Approximately 15% of American household make more than $100,000
10% make $75,000 to $100,000
18% make $50,000 to $75,000
26% make $25,000 to $50,000
28% make $0 to $25,000
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This article is even better than all those other articles!
It is so jam-packed with useful information and exlains everything so well about the whole of the USA - - well done Mr Mardell - - Pulitzer as a minimum I reckon.
Same goes for those other lovely BBC Editors who all provide thought-provoking, intuitive, expansive and thoroughly enlivening Articles that make one want to chant their praise.
Oh well done BBC - - what is it like to have attained perfection - - we mere mortals can only guess at the exalted heights your Journalists work at!
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42 39
Brits on the whole do not give a damn about Which gun it is.
that is for the gun nobs;)
good to see you are still healthy Seanspa and Pub.
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37 I do like the idea of americans buying them bonds, but do they use their credit card to do it?
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#7 John Pugh
I like to look at graphs ..so this might interest you too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income-curve-$10k.png
and you can see the large bump towards the bottom of the scale in the $10,00 to $40,000 range for household income ..then the graph slowly goes down to another bump up at around $100,000 to $150,000
Oh those nasty little facts keep getting in the way of the right wing...no bother...they just ignore them
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Although I live in the state, I am not sure Virginia is a good indicator of national trends. As others have pointed out, we tend to be contrary, voting governors who are in opposition to whatever party happens to be prevalent in Washington at the time. Otherwise, Virginians are a conservative bunch, socially and politically. I live in the southwestern part of the state, right in "Bible Belt" of Virginia, so I know just how conservative we can be.
As far as Obama goes ... I'm still in a wait-and-see mode. I would dearly love for him to make a difference, especially after the disaster of the Bush years, but I haven't seen too much that lights my fire yet. He is an improvement over Bush, though, so I'm still hopeful.
In response to someone who asked if short-term-ism has become more of an issue with the American public ... Of course, it has. We've been encouraged over the decades to believe in a "magic wand" for our issues. Politicians talk about long-term solutions, but they, and the general public, don't really have the will for it.
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#26 Rockmon
What's the point of having freedom if you can't afford to eat?
BTW I'm not a liberal - I'd rather be called an anarchist-communist!
#31 Richard
We Brits did! Look up the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution!
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Ref 37 faeyth-
"I wish Obama would start a national Bond campaign and make it easier to purchase bonds.Americans would be better off owning our own debt."
United States Savings Bonds Series EE are, and have been, available for purchase by U.S. citizens in denominations from $50 to $10,000. They can easily be purchased at banks and financial institutions, on-line, and through payroll deductions.
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" ... I'd rather be called an anarchist-communist!" (from #55)
That explains it.
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56 pub them bond wouldn't beat the rate of inflation OF THE HEALTHCARE INDUSTRY.
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Mark:
"People are not choosing representatives but rulers, who can raise or lower their taxes."
Let's go to Webster's, shall we?
Definition 1: "one that rules; specifically : sovereign".
Sovereign, definition 1b: "one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere"
That doesn't even describe the President. This is something Frei got wrong, too. He wrote during last year's presidential campaign that Americans were electing a the equivalent of a monarch. That's simply wrong. American politicians function in a way that's very different from that in any form of dictatorship. The People maintain control over all levels of government all the time, not just during elections. We may not know everything that's going on in our capitols (which is why we need an active and vigorous press corps), but as a rule politicians do nothing without the approval of their constituents. They can be deposed, if you like, at any time (just ask Rod Blagojevich and Elliot Spitzer), no revolution required.
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Ref. 39, GH1618:
'By the way, if Mr. Newman is actually hunting wild turkey, he no doubt is using a shotgun, not a "rifle.'
Hey, maybe he's looking for more of a challenge. Did you ever think of that? Down in ol' Virginny they know how to handle a firearm. Shotguns are for sissies. Heck, I'm sure he shoots skeet with a .22!
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Right. Thanks for another photo of a gun-toting Republican. Now please do a feature on a Republican physician, teacher, or restaurant worker. They're not hard to find.
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#55 - Please send a link from reputable news agency showing just one person allowed to starve to death in the U.S. Good luck with that. The states governments budgets are broken now. It's a common occurrence for illegals to buy social security numbers on the black market. That frees them up to apply for food stamps. Which is a state program funded by taxpayers, by the way.
You can keep your Communism. I don't want the faceless' drones in the government having access to my health records, my personal bank account balance, or track where I shop or where I go out to eat. It's nobodies business.
And please explain to me how any socialistic form of government has ever worked for the betterment of it's citizens? How has it motivated them to better themselves, become innovative? You make everyone equal, then everyone is dumbed down to the same level, without any motivation to strive for a higher goal. You don't live that way, you exist that way. No thanks. Capitalism isn't perfect, but I'd rather have the opportunity to try and fail at something, and to keep the income I've earned by my own merit, than to exist in some mediocrity purgatory where all you hear is endless complaining about how what is handed to them is never enough.
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I wonder if Aubrey Newman cashes his Social Security check every month with the belief that he is not benefiting from "socialism"? He looks to be old enough to collect SS benefits. Maybe he paid out-of-pocket when visiting the doctor for a check-up to make sure he was physically able to go hunting, instead of using Medicare benefits to cover the cost of his visit. Wonder if he may have traveled on any Federal, State, or County roads when he went to purchase shells for his shotgun? Did he purchase a hunting license from the State so he can hunt turkeys? Has the land he and his brother are hunting on receive any farm subsidies?
That list of questions can go on and on for some considerable length.
None of the things listed above that serve the greater 'social' good are new to the current Presidential administration. Social programs go back to the very early days of the Republic. The concept of universal, public-funded, primary education began not long after the Constitution was ratified. Public school systems has been providing education for all since the infancy of the Republic. Should we close all public schools?
The Federal highway system literally paved the way to better social intercourse by providing, and maintaining, all-weather roads across the nation. Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the federal Interstate Highway bill into existence to create, and maintain, even better roads to link communities so people could travel faster and safer to far-flung destinations; as well as to work and shopping within their own communities.
One may be able to make a case against 'creeping' socialism taking hold of the United States of America by assembling all the long-lived social programs that have served all of us through decades; even centuries. Should we, as a nation, dismantle social programs to achieve some fantasy of a pure, free-market free-trade economy that has never really existed from the very infancy of our nation?
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25. AmericanSportsFan:
Even though I imagine that you are rooting for the damn Yankees, I will acknowledge your existence. Yes, your local race sounds interesting. Good for you. More interesting than your team, that's for sure! HA!
We are not yet defeated.
Go Phillies.
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18. Brian Hill: You bring up some very interesting points.
-- You are right about the whole socialism-anathema thing:
See, during the cold war, anything remotely communist was the enemy. Socialism was evil and stood for everything un-American. It was feared and Hated. Rather - what Americans can be proud of is the fact that our government does what WE tell IT to do. Right?
Well this means that lots of folks here think that:
- public services are generally un-American and pander to lazy people.
- a powerful national government is a bad thing.
- libertarians can be very popular.
- spending money on national services is a bad idea. period.
[BTW: have you read about the Libertarians? they're funny. My god, and people think I'M naive? yeesh!]
IOW: Socialism, Communism, and Facism all get bulked into one group, called "The Enemy." And, public services such as public housing assistance, homeless services, public healthcare and even public education can be decried as such. Silly, isn't it?
-- Also, that's in interesting point about the EU comparison:
As early as 3rd & 4th grades we are drilled with the 50 states and their capitol, their different economies & cultures. So, yes... many people in the the "U"SA tend to think of the states as mini-countries, which (for logistical purposes) happen to share a currency, transportation system, and military with 49 other little countries. Interesting, isn't it?
Point of note: The Civil War was largely about "State Power vs. Federal Power." I sometimes wonder if we're still trying to work out that balance...
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I DO buy 18 EE Savings Bonds per yr (actually 14 cuz of layoffs) by payroll deductions.
I wont tell you how much money ..but its an additional retirement savings tool. (after 401k and pension)
Does this make me a hero?
Nope, I'm helping myself--someone has to--
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Fluffy, this one's for you.
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54. pandab:
Glad to have you, my friend!
I've got folk in Blacksburg, West Virginia, Kentucky and North Carolina!
Man, I miss the bluegrass and county fairs.
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publiusdetroit (#63) "Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the federal Interstate Highway bill into existence to create, and maintain, even better roads to link communities so people could travel faster and safer to far-flung destinations; as well as to work and shopping within their own communities."
Actually, Eisenhower justified the building of the Interstate Highway System as facilitating the movement of military convoys during times of national emergency. That is why it was originally called the National Defense Highway System.
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Fluffy-
Good to see you're still kicking:-D
I was only pointing out to faeyth that national bonds are available and easily purchased. One must be a resident of the U.S. with a Social Security Number; or a U.S. Citizen living abroad to purchase U.S. Savings Bonds.
Universal health care is still a dream for the uninsured. Although a special, dedicated bond issue to provide universal health care could be a solution. Not a likely solution, mind you. Why not at least give it some thought?
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ref #44
first off that you vote, too many Americans dont.
I take exception to your point that those who oppose Obama's policies are the haves.
I am not and see the disaster that one party in control has caused. and the contempt especially by Pelosi and Reid on open dialogue.
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Leon says: "I don't think he's done anything for me and I don't think he's done much for the country. This health care package, it's certainly not going to do anything for the retired people, it's certainly going to cost us money."
Aubrey is even more forthright: "I don't like some of the things our president has proposed. I have never believed in socialism and it looks like we're going into socialism."
What??? Really???
Well gramps... if you are no willing to help out your country with health care for all citizens because you are unwilling to pay for it... then I, a hard working American patriot, hunter, husband and father am unwilling to pay for your continued upkeep with Social Security and Medicare as you enter into the sunset of your life.
What gives you the right of life and care over any other citizen in America? What makes you better than others who come after you? How can you live as if you are the only man who should be taken care of by the Gov't. Your sacrifices in this life should not be confused with a false sense of entitlement.
And if you disagree with socialism sir... I suggest you stop accepting the Medicare health plan you have as well as the monthly Social Security checks you receive from your Socialist Federal Government of the United States of America who provides them to you.
Hypocrite. You shame the heritage of this nation.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I just voted in Abingdon, Virginia for Deeds. According to the local democratic party leaders, the youth vote, of which I'm a member, has been coming out strong.
Deeds did a lot of internet advertising, targeting youtube, facebook, and other websites used by young people. Many Virginians are upset with Bob's fundamentalist views. Many among the republican base are disgusted with the lack of leadership within the republican party.
Deeds tactic has been to target the female vote. Bob wrote in his thesis that he thinks working women are destroying the American family.
A previous poster wrote about how we've got yet another picture of a gun-toting republican in camo. That maybe the BBC should find a Republican who's an educator, or a restaurant worker.
Well, I'd agree that most of the United States has a skewed view of the south. They think the south is made out of trailer parks and gun-toting, fundamentalist, racists.
And while we who live here know about everything else that the south has to offer, the art and culture of old colonial Virginia, the Arts in Abingdon, the Barter Theatre, if the Republicans of the American South keep nominating people like Bob McDonnell, then the majority of America, and the world through the eyes of the American majority, will always see the south as a violent, fundamentalist infected backwater.
Just look at Bob McDonnell's policies and the thesis he wrote at Regent University! He wants women out of the work force. He wants the government to define and enforce religious institutions, such as marriage. He wants the government to have the right to prohibit medical operations for religious reasons, specifically with abortion. It's as if he wants the stereotype of the southern woman to become the reality: barefoot, pregnant, and living out of a trailer.
With policies like the ones he supports, with the campaign he has run, is it any wonder that the BBC takes him at face value and puts up a picture of a gun toting southerner in camo?
If the Republican party wants the world to have a different view of Republicans, maybe they could try nominating an honest economic conservative without disgusting social policies.
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So Leon says "This health care package, it's certainly not going to do anything for the retired people, it's certainly going to cost us money."
With that kind of ignorance it's no wonder that the election may change things in Virginia - retired people (over 65) are automatically covered by Medicare and it's not about to cost the Leons of the world any more than it does today. The SS deduction may increase slightly, but no new taxation is slated to keep Medicare going. Simply put, what the proponents of universal healthcare want is a programme which extends Medicare to those who are younger.
#63. publiusdetroit: "I wonder if Aubrey Newman cashes his Social Security check every month with the belief that he is not benefiting from "socialism"?"
Spot on! If he has to hunt for wild turkey, I wonder if he's ever used food stamps or any other welfare (benefits) programmes? And deep thinkers like him and Leon actually get to vote!
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62. At 7:29pm on 03 Nov 2009, aynwasright wrote:
"And please explain to me how any socialistic form of government has ever worked for the betterment of it's citizens? How has it motivated them to better themselves, become innovative? You make everyone equal, then everyone is dumbed down to the same level, without any motivation to strive for a higher goal."
The GI bill allowed millions of Americans to gain a college education who otherwise wouldn't have been able to better themselves because they didn't have the money.
We took farmboys off their tractors, gave them PHDs in theoretical mathematics, and then witnessed the fastest technological explosion in world history.
If free college education combined with VA health benefits for life for everyone who was drafted or enlisted in WWII caused the largest explosion in American Techonolgy and power ever, just imagine what would happen if we took those benefits and declared that they were the right of every American citizen. Higher education is too expensive. We have the best colleges on earth, which is why people come from around the world to study at them, but few Americans can afford to attend them.
As far as other socialist programs benefiting people, there's the Tennessee Valley Authority, Rural Electrification, and countless other programs from the Roosevelt-Eisenhower eras that were fantastically successful in increasing both the quality of life, and the drive to improve oneself. In truth, the drive was already there, the purpose of the programs is to make self-betterment possible.
That's the point of socialism. You don't make everyone equal. You give everyone the opportunity to better themselves.
You say that socialism doesn't cause innovation, but we couldn't have had an Apollo program without the GI Bill.
Sure, without help, a few driven people will make a few innovations. But if we give everyone the tools they need to make the innovations, you'll find that the trickle of progress becomes a torrent.
I don't think you understand the difference between socialism and communism.
Communism is where everyone is equal, and there is no private property or reward for individual effort.
Socialism is where there is equality of opportunity and access to social services such as Education and Healthcare.
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It is not fair to call someone a "hypocrite" (#71) knowing practically nothing about him. Suppose Mr. Newman is receiving Social Security payments. Remember that participation in the Social Security System is mandatory for practically everyone. If he is receiving payouts, it can only be because he paid into the system for years. To expect that he forfeit benefits to which he is entitled when he had no choice to opt out of the system, in order to avoid a charge of hypocrisy, is not reasonable.
I don't agree with Mr. Newman's remarks about socialism, but he has free speech. He is entitled to hold and express his political views, and he is entitled to collect his Social Security, in my opinion.
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#57 GH1618
What would you rather be called?
#62
Oh dear, where to begin. My quote about what's the point of having freedom if you can't afford to eat is a famous one. If you are starving would you choose freedom or food? You'll be a liar if you said freedom.
Then you give a diatribe about soviet bureaucracy. I said I'm an anarchist-communist! You don't even know what anarchist-communism is. Since you are a lover of capitalism and obviously middle class you'll know that Nazism was an deviant form of capitalism. What would you choose as being the least worst: Stalinism or Nazism?
Anyway, who does have access to all your records? The bogeymen in the Federal government?
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Dear Gussie, I can't believe there are AMERICANS who still really don't understand how our Social Security Benefits work.
When SS was established in 1936, it became a tax that you paid into the system so long as you earned income. These benefits helped support the elderly, especially widows who had no other income. This morphed into a benefit that all retirees enjoyed. The younger workers paid into the system supporting the older workers. When you reach the age of 65-70 years of age, you are eligible for SS benefits. Benefits you paid for your entire working life. Then it is the next generations turn to pay the taxes.
So, Shawn Greene, since Leon and Aubrey are FORCED into the medicare system because they are 65, they should be penalized? And my father turned 18 the year SS was enacted into law, and paid into it from day one. He worked for another 42 years. (Before you say it, yes he wasn't 65, but you can draw reduced benefits at 62 if you so choose, and he didn't draw for 2 more years). So by your logic, my dad didn't deserve his SSA benefits either. My dad earned and deserved every dollar he contributed.
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Quick point of note regarding SSN in the USA:
Doesn't anyone remember the buzz about "The Social Security Crisis"? Apparently, money paid in was to be collected later... in theory. But accounting of contributions by person hadn't been effectively maintained...? Oops? Well, that's fixed. Presently, I receive annual statements of my SSN contributions. Once I retire, my contributions are all that I'll get from the Gov. That's all.
The "Crisis," as I recall, also involved the issue that funds towards which people were paying would be drawn upon faster than the ole SSN Bucket would be filled... due to a rapidly aging & retiring American population. Oops.
We were then reassured that no one who was eligible would be denied SSN money... whatever that means.
IOW: SSN is as Socialist as Obama. It ain't. Chill. You. Must. All. Chill.
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Philly-Mom (#79) "Once I retire, my contributions are all that I'll get from the Gov. That's all."
I don't know where you get that idea. SS is not a savings program and it is not an investment. It is a retirement insurance program supported by taxes on the earnings of the employed. What you get when you retire depends on what you contributed, but also on when you begin receiving benefits and how long you live, and also on any adjustments in benefits that are made from time to time.
Here is a primer on the Secial Security System from The Heritage Foundation.
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Re 32.
I agree that the Series is probably the more followed event. Don't worry We'll end this Series tomorrow night. Go Yankees.
Re 38
I realize LBJ was a little bit corrupt, but NOT THAT corrupt.
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#79. Philly-Mom: "Once I retire, my contributions are all that I'll get from the Gov. That's all."
You'll be eligible for Medicare and if your income is very low, other supplemental programmes. Food stamps too. There's no need to starve!
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Some great informative posts from some informed Americans! Not all gun toting Verginyuns! Nice to see/read!
There's some disagreements re: the SS benefits (well said posters #76 & #78)
The varied mess the Govn. has made of SS, Medicare, Medicaid, (corruption, mismanagement, etc.)to those 'socialistic' type services(?) that many are advocating & referring to as such, selectively, yet in the next breath saying health care is not socialistic in practice, just gives me mixed messages. (I'm not explaining this very well! - could one of you re-write what I mean, please! Ha!)
Therefore, can you blame Americans for being just a little nervy about another socialistic type health care reform?
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Ref 78 aynwasright-
"...since Leon and Aubrey are FORCED into the medicare system because they are 65, they should be penalized?"
Leon and Aubrey are "FORCED" to participate in a socialist program their ideology does not support?
It is not apparent from the interview that Leon does not support "socialism". Leon only is quoted as saying the President is doing a poor job. Aubrey is directly quoted as not supporting "socialism". Even expresses anguish over what he sees is "socialism" being introduced into our capitalistic society; while failing to recognize that social programs have existed for centuries. At least; as he is quoted in the article.
It is a matter of speculation that Aubrey even receives any SS or Medicare. It is also a matter of speculation that Aubrey would refuse receiving benefits because of his anti-socialism beliefs. He is certainly not "FORCED" to accept benefits. Nobody faces penalty for not applying to receive SS or Medicare benefits. One must make a deliberate choice.
So what is the penalty if one chooses (for ideological purposes) not to draw Social Security or Medicare? Would Aubrey be fined, imprisoned, be locked in stocks in the public square for people to throw refuse at him?
Nonetheless; Social Security and Medicare are socialistic programs. A portion of the money one has earned is taken from that person to be distributed to many others. That is not a capitalistic ideal. All who are eligible to receive benefits are entitled to a specific level of the benefits offered for an indefinite time, upon becoming eligible to receive said benefits. Even if the sum total of their individual contribution has been exceeded by the amount of benefits received, at some later date, the benefits continued being paid.
The point being; when one is burning the red banner of socialism, does one only burn the parts they do not like? Or the parts of which they do not see that they share, every day, with millions of other fellow citizens? Or do we seek the 'Ideal' and become true capitalists by dismantling all that is 'socialistic' or has been made through 'socialistic' programs?
Or is there a reasonable compromise? Like the Founding Fathers came up with when forming our current, successful government by becoming a Republic with democratic principles. Is it possible to have a capitalistic based society that benefits from social programs for the greater good of the people as well as the nation?
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If it weren't for medicare there would be no health insurance for Americans over 65.
The insurance companies would never cover someone with that kind of risk for illness and high health costs.
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I went to vote today around the noon hour, even then there was brisk business in our local polling place. My county (outside of Richmond) tends to vote Republican, but not as solidly as the past. Most of this has been caused by "outsiders" moving as they take jobs in eastern VA, which I am one. This is not the case in rural areas in the western parts of VA. I voted for Creigh Deeds. I don't expect he will win, but I won't cry too much if a Republican governor takes over. I was used to it in Illinois where the major political power resided Democratic area of Chicago but the state would typically elect Republican governors. I do want to see how McDonnell is going to not raise our taxes after he goes into office. Companies are going under or moving, homes are foreclosing, but we still need to fund infrastructure projects, schools, social services, etc. Where is the money going to come from? I have no problem with higher taxes, it is inevitable, and I am putting my money that by this time next year taxes will be raised even with a Republican governor because we will have no choice - of course, it will be blamed on some "socialist agenda" and not on realities of maintaining a state budget.
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CamberwellBeauty (#83) "The varied mess the Govn. has made of SS, ..."
Social Security is not a mess. The notion that the system is in "crisis" is right-wing hype intended to stir up support for their agenda of "privatizing" the program. Here is what former presidential (Clinton) Chief Economic Advisor Laura Tyson has to say on the subject, from Business Week.
Support for privatization has waned. We have seen how it turned out for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
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Here's another interesting election, will the scion of the immaculate reception start an independent revival in Pittsburgh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Reception
http://www.harrisforpittsburgh.com/blog/?page_id=3
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Ref 85 bepa-
"If it weren't for medicare there would be no health insurance for Americans over 65."
So, socialistic programs are good?
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publiusdetroit (#84), you seem to have missed the point. One is (usually) forced to contribute to the Social Security System through payroll taxes. Even if one thinks that SS is "socialistic" and objects to it on that basis, it is nevertheless not hypocrisy to collect SS benefits unless one says that he believes that one should refuse to accept SS benefits even though paid into the system, while secretly accepting them.
It is possible to believe that the SS should be redesigned or replaced with a less "socialistic" system, while also believing that the transition should be made in a responsible way, honoring all commitments made under the current system. Nothing hypocritical about that. I, by the way, do not advocate that, but I know people who do.
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Ref 90 GH1618-
"One is (usually) forced to contribute to the Social Security System through payroll taxes."
Thank you for adding that qualifier "usually". There are alternatives. Since there are alternatives, one is not 'forced' to participate in the FICA program. An employer my have a policy of deducting payroll taxes to save their business additional paperwork and headaches. Some employers do not participate in FICA at all. The Federal government being only one example.
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#90
Is the amount one receives in Social Security benefit relative to the amount one has paid in payroll taxes? And also do the SS payments outweigh the income the system receives through payroll taxes? If the answer is yes to either of these then we can safely say that it's a 'socialistic' enterprise.
You also possess free-will - you don't have to take the benefit whether you have paid it or not. In the UK the NHS is funded through taxation, you can still utilise private healthcare if you choose without using the NHS.
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publiusdetroit (#91), by "usually" I mean that some working people, such as US Postal Service employees, are not part of the program. This is incidental to the main point: most people are required to pay into the SS System through their payroll taxes. Individuals and private employers may not opt out.
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#89 publiusdetroit
I think what you wrote at #84 is accurate...
"Is it possible to have a capitalistic based society that benefits from social programs for the greater good of the people as well as the nation?"
My answer is yes
And we already have multiple systems going on in different areas..the military is run like a dictatorship and public schools are not very democratic institutions...Parents are forced by law to have some sort of educational program for their children...
There already are systems in the US using what some call socialism.
I think it is madness to want to privatize social security. That system is for minimal security so that we don't have elderly people going into abject poverty. It is not something that should be gambled with...if people think they can create greater wealth and greater security in old age they can save and gamble on the stock market or whatever...
People have to pay to have a system that works as well as the US does...even with all its warts... and we pay with taxes...
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89. At 10:38pm on 03 Nov 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
So, socialistic programs are good?
Would you rather spend your tax money on a couple of guys with a horse and cart, who'll walk through the streets every morning shouting, "Bring out your dead!"?
I don't know about anyone else, but I've studied the living conditions of the lower classes, not just the poor, but the lower middle classes as well, during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Believe me, socialism will be the least of our worries if we get rid of the social programs and regulatory laws that were started to alleviate those conditions. Unless, of course, one can afford to flee the city every year and head for the clean air of the mountains to miss out on the epidemics of cholera, yellow fever, scarlet fever, typhoid and bubonic plague every summer. Or one doesn't mind seeing people starving to death in the streets. Or being attacked by packs of uneducated feral orphans who'll cudgel you to death for a few pennies.
To all of those who say there should be no restraints on business and no laws regulating anything (except maybe everyone ele's morals) I say, I refuse to live in a Charles Dickens novel! We've been there and we've done that. And no one, except those who managed to either ignore, or justify the horror around them, liked it. That's how we got here. Social justice is not socialism. It's sanity for society.
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"Then, these are not British by-elections. People are not choosing representatives but rulers, who can raise or lower their taxes. So the candidates and local issues really do matter."
That's not true. Governors have no power over taxes, only state representatives can do so and are like their title says representatives. Governors are essentially chief administrators/executives. They can encourage/request tax increases but it is the reps elected by the people that actually do so. Using the term ruler implies far too much power for a governor. Some may end up with a great deal of power but that is due to political influence more so than the job.
As far as Social Security and Medicare being forced. With a few exceptions everyone is required to participate in Social Security, even those not required to participate have limited opportunities to "opt out". Medicare enrollment is automatic so it is difficult to choose not to use it. There are parts of it you can choose not to use but the basic coverage is in effect "forced" on you.
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93. At 11:11pm on 03 Nov 2009, GH1618 wrote:
Individuals and private employers may not opt out.
No, they can't. And for just such circumstances as we have now. There are millions of people out there who lost everything and will now be relying almost exclusively on Social Security and Medicare when they never expected to. Those people, had they opted out, would still have needed help - unless we just left them to starve and die.
Even if there hadn't been an economic crisis, I know at least a dozen people who, in the last ten years, came down with chronic illnesses that prevented them from working. Some of them were high powered executives, business owners and other professionals who made good money when they were able to work. Quite a few of them resented paying for social programs they would never need - especially Social Security. But they lost or were forced to leave their jobs, then spent their savings on medical care. When that was gone they applied for Social Security Disability, Medicaid, Medicare and Food Stamps. Some were lucky enough to get Section 8 subsidized housing vouchers. All programs they never though they'd need and would never have paid taxes for if they'd had a choice. Well, they did need them and again, lucky for them that they weren't allowed to opt out. Because the alternative would have been that they lived high on the hog, paid nothing to help secure their future if all else should fail, and those who had paid, would have been forced to support them as well.
It isn't just deadbeats who need help. Sometimes its doctors, lawyers, accountants, judges, architects, journalists and teachers. You know, the people who work for a living.
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The only thing wrong with those people in Virginia is that they Republicans have managed to get to them. The Republicans claim to be for business and low taxes, yet they do not undestand that Capitalism requires capital and a healthy work force.
The Virginians don't seem to understand that those who are for low taxes are also for low wages. Republicans talk a good game about jobs leaving America to go overseas. I have never seen a job walk away under its own power. It is usually the people that these Neoconservatives front for, the Lobbies and so forth, that take their jobs overseas because they cannot find any slave labor outside of illegal immigrants, to work for below the minimum wage.
These Chicken Hawks are what Hannah Arendt would call Desk Bound Murderers who want to sent the children of the poor overseas on some so-called patriotic mission to exploit and kill the other sons and daughters of the poor so that their wealth will not be disturbed.
Or this Nazicons, calling themselves Neocons have nationalistic ambitions. They have long eyes seeking out land and influence for themselves wanting to expand the American Empire so the the US can outbully any other bully nation on the block. They want to serve two masters but prove unfaithful to any one nation but themselves.
I hope this is a wake-up call for Virgina. But I doubt it. It sees itself as the Savior of the nation, not the dupe of the Republicans.
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Ref 95 Gavriella_LaPoste-
I can look out my window and see the infant of social deterioration growing quickly in the depressed economic climate of Detroit. I have worked among the homeless, bringing food, and directing them to shelter and services. Need only walk a couple blocks to see squatters living in half-burned out houses in devastated neighborhoods eying me with bad intent. I worry about my own neighborhood as more and more houses are lost to foreclosures and become vacant, then become broken into so that they can be 'mined' for the wiring, plumbing, fixtures, and anything else of value. Houses methodically stripped of aluminum siding for resale as scrap. Stripped of bricks for the same purpose. Dickensian parallels abound throughout this dying city.
I wonder why there has been no CETA-type program begun to re-employ idle workers. Would the CCC camps of the 1930's prove as successful as they did almost 80 years ago? Successful programs are easily found in history books. Why have they not been resurrected and adapted to meet our current challenges?
The banks and financial institutions failed. The Government stopped the death-spiral created by failed management which was pulling us into total economic collapse. It had to be done. The shareholders have not expunged the failed management at all levels and demanded competent management be installed, starting at the top. Financial institutions continue the same inane, terrible policies that caused them to fail not more than a year previous. How long will the band-aid hold?
Deregulation and lassez-faire business practices have failed our nation miserably once again. Once again! This is not the first time our economy has collapsed. The attempt to reach pure capitalism has resulted in the same folly we have seen time and again.
We teeter on the verge of a terrible abyss.
Come to Detroit. I will take you on a tour of what can be expected in a neighborhood near you in the quickly approaching future if the Ship of State is not handled with the immediate, pressing measures vital to our survival. All hands must work as one...or we sink to our death.
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Ref 97 Gavrielle_LaPoste-
"...I know at least a dozen people who, in the last ten years, came down with chronic illnesses that prevented them from working. Some of them were high powered executives, business owners and other professionals who made good money when they were able to work."
Know the type you are referring to from the people I worked with before my retirement last year. I could tell the direction the business was heading by the way they mismanaged their own lives through careless, even fool decisions and over-elaborate lifestyles. Living life large. "The one with the most toys wins!", they bragged during the good-old-days. That is the also the way they ran the business now in, what is likely, irreversible decline.
Those that have been 'down-sized' out of a job they were not qualified to hold are losing their toys piecemeal. Taken from them without a dime of recompense. They are lost because their fantasy world collapsed without, as far as their limited sight could discern, forewarning. There goes the summer home on the beach. There goes the hunting 'lodge' in the woods. Dunning notices arrive daily. Still have not learned that some money is better than no money.
"Sell me that Harley. I'll give you $2,000."
"Are you nuts!! I can't do that! I paid $20,000 for it four years ago. I'm trying to sell it for $21,000 because I put toys on it."
"What's the best offer you've had?"
"Well...nobody is buying right now."
"I'm buying. I'll take it off your hands for $1,500."
"No. I'll wait. Somebody will give me more."
"Isn't that the mortgage collector coming up the drive?"
"Yeah. I need to give him $1,000 dollars today or they start foreclosure on my house."
"I'll give you $1,000 cash right now for that Harley."
"No! I told you! I'll wait for somebody to come up with my price."
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Well the Obamanists will say it doesn't matter. But it does. Obamanists will say Obama was left a mess. So what! Obama is in charge now, yet more messes pile up like traffic accidents on an icy day. Although he is not alone Obama has a majority Democratic House and Senate. An still can't do anything. Why because the American Electorate are angry at all this insanity. Healthcare for illegals, terrorists without citizenship given US citizens rights? Stimulus bill, jobs nil. Cruising Airforce One around the Statue of Liberty for a photo shoot. Secret visitors to the White House with the same transparency as the Bush administration. Matter of fact, as the Justice Dept is filing the same charges. Lack of accountability. Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Georgia, reset button didn't work. Soldiers dieing, bad policy but healthcare is more important? I think those soldiers lifes are more important than it all, but what does an average citizen matter, until an election. You sowed it, so reap it. More power to the grass roots. We need a movement for a new party, not this corrupt decrepit two party system. Independents are growing, why because a jobless recovery isn't a recovery. Who coined those words, Michael Moore, or Joseph Goebbels? Its simple voters are fed up.
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Agree with these posts, many of the progessive social reforms in US came during early 1900s, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era
And someone asked about starvation in the US -- a lot of starvation deaths in the 30's were concealed - children especially. If a doctor went, they just put 'natural causes' or the like.
http://www.ibew.org/IBEW/history/1930_1939.htm
“Then some of them went to the relief offices, and they came sadly back to their own people. They’s rules--you got to be here a year before you can git relief. They say the gov’ment is gonna help. They don’ know when. And gradually the greatest terror of all came along. They ain’t gonna be no kinda work for three months.
In the barns, the people sat huddled together; and the terror came over them, and their faces were gray with terror. The children cried with hunger, and there was no food.
Then the sickness came, pneumonia, and measles that went to the eye and to the mastoids. And the rain fell steadily, and the water flowed over the highways, for the culverts could not carry the water.
Then from the tents, from the crowded barns, groups of sodden men went out, their clothes slopping rags, their shoes muddy pulp. They splashed through the water, to the towns, to the country stores, to the relief offices, to beg for food, to cringe and beg for food, to beg for relief, to try to..." - John Steinbeck Grapes of Wrath
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"In the UK the NHS is funded through taxation, you can still utilise private healthcare if you choose without using the NHS." dceilar
Do they refund all your NHS taxes when you buy your own private plan???
Or are you basically screwed?
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As far as taxes, most are misspent. The economy shrinks as taxes go up. That is the biggest problem, my local town has elected democrats, and taxes have soared. So next election they will be viewed rather harshly, as the money spent was spent poorly. SO which is better, pay for idiots, and bow to the party faithful. Or can them in the next election.
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So AmericanGrizzly? Did you exercised your franchise today as a registered, well-informed elector?
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Do you see what we have to put up with in the US! All these lies coming out of the right.
yes I mean post #101
How does anyone deal with this?
They make long lists of lies and love to talk over other speakers.
Is there anything like this right wing phenomenom in Britain?
I'm fed up with these nuts...
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99. At 00:21am on 04 Nov 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
I wonder why there has been no CETA-type program begun to re-employ idle workers. Would the CCC camps of the 1930's prove as successful as they did almost 80 years ago? Successful programs are easily found in history books. Why have they not been resurrected and adapted to meet our current challenges?
Something like that already exists in the form of AmeriCorps. Unfortunately, I can just hear the cries of people like Rep. Michelle Bachman if Obama even suggested something like a works program similar to the CCC. She'd call it a commie-socialist re-education camp where people would be brainwashed. Well, that's what she said about AmeriCorps, though her son, bless him, signed up. Guess she wants him to pull himself up by his bootstraps, too.
How long will the band-aid hold?
Not much longer. The commercial real estate market is about to implode. We may have another year before the hemorrhaging is too great to ignore. And there's supposedly another wave of real estate related defaults to come after that.
Come to Detroit. I will take you on a tour of what can be expected in a neighborhood near you
I think seeing Detroit now would break my heart. I live in Chicago and can guess what you are experiencing. What I find interesting is that landlords and condo owners who want to sublet their space, and who sneered at Section 8 money two years ago, are now desperate to get some of that government money for themselves - rather than sell off their prized Honda's or big screen TVs. But the condos are nearly empty, the expensive cars have for sale signs in their windows, and the fancy clothing store down the street has been replaced by a dollar store, which is doing a booming business. Yuppies gone wild! It would be funny, if they hadn't dragged the rest of us down with them.
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Mark, I have to be honest with you about the State of Virginia(Named after Queen Elizabeth I) and tell you why it SHOULD NOT BE viewed as a referendum on the Obama Administration. Over the last 32 years, the party that wins the NAtional Election and is in the White House has always lost the governors race in Virginia going back to 1977. This has been true under both Democratic and Republican Administrations. Virginians like be contrarian. In many respects, they like to be in opposition to the Whitehouse and I don't think they would be happy with a governor who was of the same party as the President.
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It might be said, that it's no surprise that Virginia would vote a lost cause. Many conservative groups and regions will. However, I think the fat times are over, and the Republican Party has an albatross the size of Texas 'round its neck.
It has been corrupt and irresponsible. It has dabbled in election fraud, and dragged us into the longest, most unnecessary, illegal and immoral war in our history, entirely on the basis of lies. It has favored the rich over and against the poor, and worse, corporations over flesh and blood Americans. Last but not least, it has destroyed the American, and with it the world economy. The average American may not recover for a decade.
The Republican Party has written its own death sentence. We can only hope that the sentence is carried out.
The future is on the Left.
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#109..do you ever wonder why its "left, right, liberal, soshulist, etc etc etc." Why not just seek to achieve the most logical, reasonable, humane, practical, solution wisely determined after considering the facts in each instance, and if you must because there are rational arguments and relative risks to each side of it, take a majority vote? Why the labels? The name calling is a tool of pamphletiers, IMO if we (the regular folk) use it we are getting used. Swat I think
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/440500/pamphlet
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Ref 107 Gavrielle_LaPoste-
"The commercial real estate market is about to implode. We may have another year before the hemorrhaging is too great to ignore. And there's supposedly another wave of real estate related defaults to come after that."
That is only the tip of the iceberg. Just wait until the title disputes start when clear title to property cannot be obtained, nor conveyed because of the derivative disbursement of mortgages; both residential and commercial. We be slogging through that cesspool for a century.
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Yes I have been registered to vote since I was 18. I have voted in every election since that time. I have never belonged to the hack parties of Democrat and Republican. I have never signed on as either. I vote period. To sign on to a platform is stupid, if you don't agree with it totally. That is the sign of a hypocrite, call it what you may. Voting for the lesser of two evils, may be a better analogy when I vote for the man or woman. So lick the boots of your party and beg for the crumbs they offer. Myself I prefer to make the government fear its people, not a sell out who parrots a party line. I also write my Representative, by snail mail, so they have to answer. Unlike this present Congress writing Healthcare behind closed doors, what next. A blank bill, which will be filled in as the politicians see fit. I think not. Fill these politicians with fear, make them think about LOSING their jobs. Yeah I am mad as hell. I like it. Dredging up the past and trying to create forest jobs, WPA, and such isn't realistic. The US now has competition from China, India, and their education levels are growing as they learn to prosper. The US education level, we are placed just ahead of Mexico. Wake up and smell the coffee.
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That Virginia would vote for a Repulican governor is not surprising. More disconcerting to the Democrats is the victory of Christie over Corzine, the Democratic incumbent. Obama campaigned strongly for Corzine, and I had telephone calls from Obama, Bill Clinton, Senator Melendez, plus others I didn't know.. Recordings of course. i found these annoying and pushy and I wonder if it didn't cost Corzine some votes. I always hang up on these calls, no matter which side I stand on. They certainly give me a pain.
Whatever, the Christie election is a real kick in the pants for Obama, whether he deserves it or not.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Hey yankeetwo what are all these indictments on ACORN for election fraud, what party loves them??? Glass house there. With big holes in that window. I think the UN should investigate the elections here rather than Afghanistan. So what important job skills is AmeriCorp teaching??? How to be political and get money from the government? Paid volunteers?
How about trades, engineering, business, medical, and skills where you actually create a product, or produce something. The US has more lawyers than any other country (lucky us). That is why the British and Canadians are making vaccine for the H1N1, some here don't want to get sued. Toyota is now #1 how did they do it? Quality, reliability, price, and good business. No part of the problem is as the government pumped money into ACORN, NASA got 1/10 of a penny. Aerospace is the last area the US is now starting to lose in, when we were a leader. Competition from the rest of the world is making the US store clerks, and warehouse workers. Say goodbye to Hollywood my baby. People here need a grip on reality and reassert their power with these elected politicians. Make them accountable. People need to educate themselves, watch their government, and speak out. Plus respect all views. "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." Thomas Jefferson
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Governor Corzine just made his concession speech, the Republicans have won back the governor's mansion in NJ. Christi is no prize but Corzine has had his chance and he's made a mess of things. We have the hightest real estate taxes in the country. If this keeps up, Barack Obama is on course to be a one term president. If the economy hasn't substantially turned around by this time next year, he will likely lose control of the House. I'm not quite sure about the Senate though. A year is a very long time in American politics and three years is forever. A lot could happen to change things between now and then but at the moment the Democrats are in trouble. Storm warnings ahead.
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Ref 107 Gavrielle_Post-
Recently passed through the south side of your fair metropolis twice within the last month during my road trip to the Wyoming. I-80 to I-94 corridor. I cannot tell you how disappointed I was that both times I could not stop for more than a refueling and a McWendywhopper meal. There are restaurants and food in Chicago that I hate to miss whenever I have an opportunity to visit the Windy City. Chicago-style hot dogs!! All the food groups in a bun! ;-)
Even more disappointing was not being able to spend time talking to people in neighborhood establishments, as I did in so many places along my way and back, to hear their take on how things are in their community, their state and the nation.
Outbound I was heading to see my son going to school in Wyoming. You may imagine where my heart was directing me. Besides; it was 3:00 in the morning. The return trip was earlier than expected because of an impending problem with my vehicle. So many exits off the Interstate called to me. It was wise to let them pass.
The roads around Chicago still suck:-D No wonder Obama called for highway funds during his very early days in office.
(For all the vultures awaiting carrion; there were miles upon miles of roads being improved in the environs of metropolitan Chicago. They just have not completed all the work badly needed throughout the Interstate system. The work continues. Rome was not built in a night.)
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112, AmericanGrizzly
What Washington is slow to realize is that we Independents hold the power. It is particularly gratifying that they can never be sure what we will do.
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A 2009 Gallup poll showed that American interviewed describe their political views as 40% conservative, 35% moderate, and 21% liberal. The biggest idealogical group is conservative. So Americans want a responsible government spending and taxing. "When the taxman comes to the door, Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale,yes." John Fogerty
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Ref 116 MarcusAurelius-
"If the economy hasn't substantially turned around by this time next year, he [Obama] will likely lose control of the House."
May not matter who is in power next year. Come to Detroit. I'll show you what next year may be.
(On a personal note: Do come. You and I would have a rousing good time touring the urban scenery and talking politics. Bring the caliber of your choice for self-defense. It's not pretty here. Have a note from your doctor showing the result of a recent stress test. The City of Detroit is not for the weak-of-heart. I go to sleep at night listening to the rhythmic sound or gunfire and sirens.)
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Ref 112 AmericanGrizzly-
Thank you for voting in the elections today.
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119, AmericanGrizzly.
Many of us don't fit neatly into categories, which I guess is what mkes us independents. For instance I am socially progressive, for the most part, and fiscally conservative, for the most part. The only candidate who was a good fit for me was Ross Perot. If I were offered "conservative," "moderate," or "liberal," I would want to say :"other," Since they don't offer "other" the results they come up with are not accurate.
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Ref 122 allmymarbles-
Ms. Marbles,
With the current divisiveness of our country it will be better to stop calling ourselves Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, conservatives, moderates, liberals, others, and any other label that divides us. It is time to call ourselves "united" and find reasonable solutions and compromises that will save our nation.
We are becoming a nation of tribes under our ever increasing, divisive labels. Look how stable a nation Afghanistan is as a region of tribes. Can our nation survive? "We the people..." are making that decision by either becoming more steadfast in our divisiveness, or how well we will join together to resolve the destruction of problems we face.
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Ref 112 AmericanGrizzly-
"Dredging up the past and trying to create forest jobs, WPA, and such isn't realistic."
If lessons learned in the past from successful economic recovery programs like CCC, WPA, CETA are not realistic to face the challenges of today, what do you suggest?
You growl real loud. So far you are a paper tiger when it comes to suggesting realistic solutions to the problems quickly eroding our nation. I commend you for being an active, registered voter since you were 18 years old. Now let us hear if you are a well-informed elector by sharing solutions instead of pointing out very obvious problems.
How do we get the unemployed back to work and recharge the flagging economy?
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I watch the read, watch and listen to the news. Bepa. Where do you get your information the Obama webpage?
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Well Detroit. I am saying education for jobs for the future have changed. Forest jobs, and the simplistic jobs aren't going to save us. But we need a very diverse economy and we have competition. That is what elected officials should be working towards. So what educational principles does AmeriCorp teach? your turn to answer with solutions. Is Detroit the murder capital of the US. Washington DC was when I lived there in Maryland.
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Ref 126 AmericanGrizzly-
Very good. You are so right that education for jobs for the future have changed. Do you know that the CCC camps not only provided work in reforestation; but also, more importantly, the CCC camps very successfully provided education and training on the current technologies of the day to young men who were part of the program? The CCC camps opened doors to future, gainful employment through technical training while at the same time they paid wages for mostly menial work done that was vital to our environment at that time after clear-cut lumbering of the late 1800's early 1900's denuded the forests leaving millions of square acres open to very destructive erosion of top soil into watercourses.
As I read your posting of solutions you point out that a very diverse economy and competition are needed. You also point out that the elected officials should work toward a diverse economy and competition; but you never offer a tangible solution of your own. The bubble gum news stations have been reporting for months the simplistic things you are pointing out in your post.
I have no idea what educational principles are taught by AmeriCorp. I have not made any reference to that program in any posting. As far as I am aware there has not been a determination as to whether AmeriCorp is successful in achieving its goals. Essentially you are still pointing a finger without providing ideas for resolution.
Here is a tangible idea for providing paid employment while also training people with skills that will bring them more gainful employment in the future, and their tax dollars from that newly developed, gainful employment will repay the cost of their previous labor and training as it has in the past economic hard times.
There are thousands of vacant houses in the City of Detroit. Enlist young people with limited job skills into work groups similar to the CCC camp and provide them with the caliber of leadership that was so successful in the CCC camps. Have them dismantle these vacant houses and recover materials as they do so. Materials can be sold for recycling. Provide housing, food, and clothing to them while paying them a reasonable wage as was done in the CCC camps. Just like in the CCC camps; the leadership will be looking for personal strengths and abilities that can be channeled into training programs were the individual will find they have interests and skills that make the training enjoyable, thus educational; and will lead to more gainful employment.
That is just one idea for a solution. There are so many more to be developed.
As for your interest in Detroit;
Detroit is no longer the murder capital of the U.S. because it is a relative ghost town. There are so few targets. Potential murderers are so poor of marksmen that they need lots of people around to be able to hit somebody. They seldom kill their intended target but fetch up a bystander if any are within range. Low population density, fewer bystanders, fewer hits. Plenty of shots still fired. Poorer odds for the murderers.
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123 Publius.
"With the current divisiveness of our country it will be better to stop calling ourselves Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, conservatives, moderates, liberals, others, and any other label that divides us. It is time to call ourselves "united" and find reasonable solutions and compromises that will save our nation."
Whose "united" do we adopt? Do we become clones? Robots? Do we condemn ourselves to slavish obedience. I think they tried that in Germany....
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#7 John
It seems that dishing out taxpayers money to the rich and the corporations is called Capitalism; while dishing out a few dimes to the poor and needy is called Socialism.
It sounds like both the US and the UK need to learn a lesson from the French: guillotine the rich.
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pd
"I go to sleep at night listening to the rhythmic sound or gunfire and sirens"
Those are just the echoes of a little "Night Music" finally reaching Detroit from "DA BRONX."
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lostallyourmarbles:
"Many of us don't fit neatly into categories"
I don't know about that. I had you pegged from your first posting and every subsequent one has only served to confirm my first impression.
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#103 Grizzly
Do they refund all your NHS taxes when you buy your own private plan???
Or are you basically screwed?
There is no separate tax for the NHS, it's part of National Insurance contributions. To be hypothetical, if you could opt-out of the 'NHS taxes' and NHS care you really would be screwed when you retire, big time. You won't be able to afford private healthcare insurance (if they wanted to insure you in the first place) and be denied the NHS treatment you opted out of.
So if you wanted private healthcare you are still better off contributing also to the NHS.
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lostallyourmarbles;
"Many of us don't fit neatly into categories"
Upon further reflection, things aren't always what they seem to be. According to their own postings, stellarbeloved turned out to be a man while trueconservative turned out to be a woman. I guessed wrong in both cases. What ever became of tc anyway? She seems to have retreated to her bat cave ever since I "buked" her. Not the talkative type at all. On another BBC blog site, one poster using the moniker "Maureen" said she (or he) was a "George Sands in reverse." Evidently someone trying out a different gender identity as an experiment????
I'll stick with my impression of your postings however. I'm sure I got that one right. So where do you fly off to next? Afghanistan to negotiate with the Taleban or Iran to try to talk sense to Ahmadinejad? Frankly if I were you, I'd stay in New Jersey which is what I'm doing. Didn't you once say you lived in Manhattan? Found one marble and came to your senses finally?
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#36 -frayedcat.....Confused…
As usual the Liberals believe their own Propaganda.
I’m not rich and don’t ever expect to be. I’m lucky when I make 65k a year.
But even that amount is too rich a target for you Liberals to ignore. I get taxed 28 – 30% and going up!
But I guess that’s still not enough right?
Nobody gave me a handout to get myself educated and I don’t look at the government and say I’m being discriminated against so let’s make some new laws so I can get mine.
Now if you want to pay people, who are perfectly capable of getting themselves educated or working, to stay home
and watch Jerry Springer then you go right ahead but count me out of your great plan and stop trying to force it down the people’s throats!
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#45 fluffytale
As usual name calling and cheap shots are always part of the of the liberals arsenal.
So your solution is to overpay the grave digger and under pay the rocket scientist?
If I have to tell you why the above statement is laughable then I guess I’m not the only one with very little brain.
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#55 dceilar
I would agree with you if those were the only 2 choices but they’re not.
There are plenty of programs in the US to get yourself educated and be a
productive self sustaining person.
The problem with some people is they don’t want to do the hard work that it takes to get there.
Why should Americans have to pay for massive benefit programs that, are going to rob future generations and raise taxes even higher because Joe or Mary is too lazy to get up off the couch and better themselves?
Now I’m not saying that’s the case with everyone because there are certainly legitimate reasons why some people may not be capable of helping themselves but that should be the exception not the rule.
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132. dceilar wrote:
"#103 Grizzly
"Do they refund all your NHS taxes when you buy your own private plan???
Or are you basically screwed?"
There is no separate tax for the NHS, it's part of National Insurance contributions."
The UK National Insurance is used for pensions and to part-fund the NHS, the balance being made up from regular taxation revenues.
It is a separate tax, but only in the sense that it's revenues are only to be used for the designated purposes - not for general government spending.
To Grizzly - you cannot opt out of the NHS, but you can choose not to use it - but no refund. The whole point of universal healthcare is that it is funded according to the means of the tax-payers and then used equally by all citizens, irrespective of their current financial situation, or pre-existing conditions.
The UK has a very succesful dual system, where you can upgrade to private care if you choose (or if you have the money).
However private care is not nearly so expensive in the UK as the USA because the doctors personal liability premiums are much lower (we don't sue as much) and the whole process is much less expensive.
I don't have private coverage, but chose earlier to have a minor non-urgent operation in a private hospital for various reasons - mainly time-related, not based on the care I would receive. Cost for all inclusive (one night hospital, surgeon, anaesthetist, pre- and 2 post-operative consultations) was £3000 - about $4,500. American friends tell me the same op would cost 4 or 5 times that in the states, and the patient would still pay an excess of 10% or more on top of the premiums already paid.
Fix the system, and cut out the lawyers, administrators and profiteering and start to worry about the Americans who cannot aford basic healthcare.
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Philly Mom.
"[BTW: have you read about the Libertarians? they're funny. My god, and people think I'M naive? yeesh!]"
Big LOL.
might as well just say " selfisharians "
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Seanspa nd pub.
Sean.
the Nutt.
I have been saying the same thing for years.
but unfortunately this subject is never too well publicised when the angle is in favour of Pot.
Look at the Total lack of reporting on the BBC news on PBS.
Why not a brief mention., for the Ex pats that wonder what dictator is running the UK.;)
Is it because americans who like to remain ignorant on this couldn't do with seeing the other side of the debate.
Nope this is still the most censored subject on the BBC.
Ridiculous
Pub, I was just joking that most americans live on debt so how can they buy any bonds;)
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78 wenwasurite
By the same token If I am paying in today should I not be able to expecvt the returns I am paying for.
Your dear old POP may have paid in during his life, but you say HE deserves to get his but we paying now deserve nothing. Because that is what we are getting.
It could be argued that seeing as your old man was able to VOTE for a health system that was either run by or regulated by the Gov. so as to not become unaffordable to so many people.
But did he and his generation think of the next?
NO they thought of themselves and said NO.
If we went back and looked at what he paid for did he start paying in at a rate that would compensate for the incredible advances in medical practices( ; ) )
Should the rates have been increased back then so as to take into account the unwillingness of some to see their maker.
the Huge cost of the last few months of procedures that will make so little difference but prolonging the suffering..
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62
"And please explain to me how any socialistic form of government has ever worked for the betterment of it's citizens? How has it motivated them to better themselves, become innovative? You make everyone equal, then everyone is dumbed down to the same level, without any motivation to strive for a higher goal."
Excuse me.
FRANCE.
Go read up .
YOU may find they have been quite productive and searching.
Britain about the same.
Go around Europe and see the socialism in their systems and carry on trying to say they never made or created anything.
You fell for the anti commie crap real good didn't you.
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134 ROCK HEAD
The reason YOUR taxes are going up is YOU think one day you might make it.
YOU think that people earning millions by getting laws fixed to make YOUR life more precarious are not to be taxed as much as you.
Warren Buffet admitted he pays less tax than most of his lower end employees. as a percentage.
BUT YOU WANT TO PAY MORE BY NOT ASKING THOSE RICH REAMERS TO PAY THEIR FDAIR SHARE>
so stop bitching to us about your tax bill.
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#142. fluffytale:
ROCK HEAD - Is that the best name you can come with?
Please entertain me better than that. Use some imagination.
Now onto your misguided, Democratic talking points.
When you live in a free society you can actually believe that you can improve yourself and maybe make more money in the future.
However when you have out of control Liberal’s looking to institute massive programs to tighten their grip on power then using your example of the greedy rich people there’s not much difference between the two is there?
In your mind the whole problem comes down to the greedy rich people so that pretty much leaves out any self responsibility on your end doesn’t it?
Oh and for your information:
85% of all federal income taxes - Are paid by 25% of the top wage earners.
Just to set the record straight.
And it's my right and obligation to "Bitch" about the government stealing any of my money that I earned to pay for their Massive power grabbing programs.
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#141 Fluffy
I wouldn't waste my time on the poster @62. He doesn't read too well. I think he responded to my post @55 by, not what I wrote, but what he wished I wrote. Then my reply was referred to the Gods because I mis-spelt his name to arselight. Simple mis-spelling I thought.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States
"The aggregate income distribution is highly concentrated towards the top, with the top 6.37% earning roughly one third of all income,"
Rockhead (there are plenty of names but the mods are there for a reason). you use the figure to mislead well. did you get them from the GOP website?
"When you live in a free society you can actually believe that you can improve yourself and maybe make more money in the future."
Other free societies have holiday pay ,health care and mandatory paid time off(ie mandatory for it to be provided)
PS It is my right to bitch about how my Gov spends the money as well.
War and destruction of the planet not being my Highest priorities.
Though you seem to think that OK.
And I would rather the Liberals tighten power to share the wealth than the republicans use it to concentrate the wealth.
Try explaining how the europeans have no magination, creativity or drive because they have health care and paid holidays?
Or carry on bitching .
144
Dceiler, easy mistake to make.
but it is Arc with a soft C
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145. At 4:46pm on 04 Nov 2009, fluffytale
Wikipedia is your source?
Try going to the irs.gov website.
"Rockhead (there are plenty of names but the mods are there for a reason"
No doubt there is which is why I said you'd need to use your imagination.
Believe me I know the depths of intoleration the Liberal mind is capable of.
A simple disagreement is worthy of great wrath so it's certainly expected.
I have holiday, personal and Sick days along with health Care.
I've been working for over 30 years with different employers and have always had these benefits.
To suggest the almighty government should be the great overseer to make sure these benefits are delivered is not necessary nor desirable.
The less intrusion by big brother the better.
And what makes employers give these benefits?
Because if they don't their employees leave to find better jobs as has always been the case.
Now you can make the case that with unemployment at the levels they are there’s a problem, and there may be a legitimate need for a temporary health care program to be instituted during these times but it’s the Government, (Local, State and Federal), that is raising taxes and forcing businesses to cut employees or go out of business altogether.
Yes you do have the right to protest war and destruction if such things are done for no reason other than a power grab.
However when a first strike is delivered as was done on 9-11 then it's a case of self defense and only after the job of defeating the enemy is over should the war be stopped.
But were getting off target here.
As far as liberal's tightening their grip on power vs greedy republicans concentrating their wealth both are equally intolerable and should never be allowed to happen.
But as a side note at this point in time it has been documented that in fact the liberal Democrats in Washington have more net worth than the republicans and not just because there's a few more of them.
I will not try explaining Europeans having no imagination because they have benefits since I never said that nor think it.
I was simply referring to you calling me Rockhead.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Rock names?
that is your issue??
people are suffering and you want to complain that people call you names?
You have holiday health care and it all don't you.
but because you have it you cannot understand that much of america doesn't.
the figure on wiki are available in a non PDF format. why do you not produce some. you have made claims then tell others to check it out.
fair nuff I couldn't be bothered to reconfirm what is common Knowledge. The rich are not in the majority.
"I will not try explaining Europeans having no imagination because they have benefits since I never said that nor think it."
it wasn't you that said
"And please explain to me how any socialistic form of government has ever worked for the betterment of it's citizens? How has it motivated them to better themselves, become innovative? You make everyone equal, then everyone is dumbed down to the same level, without any motivation to strive for a higher goal"
then
"To suggest the almighty government should be the great overseer to make sure these benefits are delivered is not necessary nor desirable."
why not. they could mandate that those benefits not be dropped when the share holders want some more for their investment.
"The less intrusion by big brother the better."
Any proof?
"And what makes employers give these benefits?
Because if they don't their employees leave to find better jobs as has always been the case. "
BULL those that have to in very competitive buisnesses do but how many cashiers, waiters waitresses,janitors, construction workers, factory workers.
food processors, farm hand.
How many of them can threaten to leave??????
"Now you can make the case that with unemployment at the levels they are there’s a problem, and there may be a legitimate need for a temporary health care program to be instituted during these times but it’s the Government, (Local, State and Federal), that is raising taxes and forcing businesses to cut employees or go out of business altogether. "
"temporary health care program"
that's the sort where private industry reams the gov to solve the problem while providing the care at the most expensive rates in the world???
The GOV are not the ones that are not buying goods, not investing in appropriate technologies.
GM made Crap cars that were gas guzzelers.But you say the Gov over taxed them??
Most people (and I am self employed) are suffering because the economy is crap.
No one is buying. those with the money are busy taking advantage of the foreclosure sales, and the discounts while the rest go bankrupt.
Workers laid off because the store business is not making money. hell they will not have to pay taxes this year probably they lost so much, it will be a write off.
But to you only the rich need to be helped.
carry on the second america revolution will not be far away.
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"However when a first strike is delivered as was done on 9-11 then it's a case of self defense and only after the job of defeating the enemy is over should the war be stopped."
"police action" Not all out invasion.
I do not doubt that the rich dem running the show are not in it to help all americans. but I do know they are not in it to just help themselves.
PS warren buffet is a little left leaning compared to you. he has done very well. (though not as well as he wished I am sure).
he recommended raising taxes on the rich.
he said he paid less as a percentage than his secretary.
In this town where I live the "republican" shops etc very rarely offer ANy benefits.
but strangely those left leaners DO.
Documentation does not prove that those rich liberals treat their workers like crap.
It may prove they have a better grasp of the markets.
Maybe they invested in green tech. maybe they made ethical investments;) I don't know. but I do know you are full of it.
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First strike was by AQ not the taliban.
Are you suggesting the warring factions of the talliban were unified before we turned up to give them a common enemy????
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Mark Mardell...
Well, there was a revival of the Republican Party in Virginia on
Election Night....
=Dennis Junior=
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Republican revival in Virginia implies that the Republican/Dixicrat Party went away. Since The Democratic party betrayed [to their way of thinking] Dixie and opted for equal rights for non-WASP citizens Virginia and the other Old South states have been wedded to the GOP. Lincoln must be spinning in his grave at that.
Virginia and other places do show signs of becoming "New South" but none of them has even become a reliable "swing state" yet.
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