Another fine mess
The White House has repeatedly stressed the need for a "legitimate" partner in Afghanistan. What we don't know is what happens if they don't get one.
What President Obama needs to make a decision on future strategy is clarity, what he's got is a mess.
This breaks down into two parts - perceptions and practicalities.
Everybody in the administration from Obama downwards has put emphasis on the need for any government to be legitimate in the eyes of the Afghan people. No doubt they do want that. But what they really mean is that it must be legitimate in the eyes of the American people, if they are going to be asked to make further commitments to the country. Today's muddle hardly helps any eventual victor look more legitimate.
That's the perception. The practicality is even tougher. Those in the administration who argue against sending many more troops are not dong it because they have some super-effective alternative strategy. They just worry that the Afghan government isn't up to it. "It" being the necessary components of a counter-insurgency strategy: fighting corruption, providing people with effective services and building up a strong and effective military.
To some that means a government where President Karzai has the support of at least some of his rivals, a government of all the talents.
If not, can they somehow circumvent Kabul? Can they do deals on a regional basis? Can they get more people they trust in the administration. Not easy.
The other day President Obama sounded personally frustrated when he told an election rally in Virginia that he was busy mopping up a mess others had left. All they could do, he said, was criticise the way he was holding the broom.
Someone's just tipped another pile of muck on the floor.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
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Mark, you got it right on all counts. The reason we need a "legitimate" leader in Afghanistan is because of supporting a puppet or a corrupt leader is unacceptable to most Americans. We have paid dearly for the "wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq, not only financially, but in lives sacrificed for a nebulous cause and thousands of young Americans maimed or affected by PTSD.
I consider the invasion of these countries unwarranted and immoral and believe that the best course of action is to withdraw immediately, but if we are to remain there we must provide our troops with everything they need and we must give them a sense of purpose that has been MIA for 7 years.
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You're darn right it's a mess, Mark.
We've got to deal with election boycotts now.
Thanks for nothing, Abdullah Abdullah!
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"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier." - Rudyard Kipling
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Not another dollar, not another soldier, until Karzai is gone.
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Your 2nd to last paragraph summs up Obama reaction to crisis.
Blame Bush.
Obama talks about looking foward but he is not even looking at the present.
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No matter what, keep training the soldiers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX_Yq8u3X6s
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The Taliban, however much you may dislike their fundamentalist philosophy, are ambitious regionally only. They want their system in Afghanistan and western Pakistan - that's all. It is Al Quaia you were really after - the international terrorists who made nobody feel safe - and they are long gone into the mountains of the North West Frontier, Whajiristan, Chechya or lord knows where. Their tactical organisation is devolved to local groups as far a part west Africa and the Philippines. And what are you left with? Nation building. Well it's not your nation and it's not your job. It is simply your taxpayer dollars and the cream of your young people. Is it really worth the price?
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ref #7
The Taliban, however much you may dislike their fundamentalist philosophy, are ambitious regionally only. They want their system in Afghanistan and western Pakistan - that's all.
When Karzi made the concession for Sharia law look at the disaster it was. the Tailban are not worthy of ruling 1 mile of land. any one that intolerant of others is not. The Nazis weren't, The Iranian mullahs arent and the Tailban aren't
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Two words: General Elphinstone
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#8 - MagicKirin
A disaster for who? For you, or the free world or the planet as a whole? How much longer are we in the west going spending billions of cash and thousands of lives telling people half a world away how to organise their lives?
When the Cold War finally ended, hardly a shot was fired. It was the triumph of an idea and the death of another which had run it's course. You cannot deliver democracy at the end of a gun barrel. If you are doing it for other reasons, fair enough but please don't cloak it in the language of the greater good.
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US doesn’t want to “win” in Afghanistan.
If they wanted to “win” they would have sent far more troops to Afghanistan in the first place. Over 250,000 troops were sent to overcome an Iraqi population of 24 million. Afghanistan has much a bigger population (32m+), a more difficult terrain, home to al-Qaeda, and a poor infrastructure. Those facts alone justify a huge troop presence, perhaps as many as they sent to Gulf War 1.
Responsibility for the August election was thrown over to the Afghans just a couple of months before the vote. It was bound to have problems.
US just want enough troops to keep Afghanistan together, while allowing continued insurgency to disrupt any Afghan progress.
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The Taliban, however much you may dislike their fundamentalist philosophy, are ambitious regionally only. They want their system in Afghanistan and western Pakistan - that's all. It is Al Quaia you were really after - the international terrorists who made nobody feel safe - and they are long gone into the mountains of the North West Frontier, Whajiristan, Chechya or lord knows where. Their tactical organisation is devolved to local groups as far a part west Africa and the Philippines. And what are you left with? Nation building. Well it's not your nation and it's not your job. It is simply your taxpayer dollars and the cream of your young people. Is it really worth the price?
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Nations were destroyed, not build, the destroyed nations know that they have to build themselves, and in the process, destroy those who tried to destroy them.America and its allies, are killing pashtun nation in the name of war against taliban..
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The other day President Obama sounded personally frustrated when he told an election rally in Virginia that he was busy mopping up a mess others had left. All they could do, he said, was criticise the way he was holding the broom.
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That one he knew before he ran for the elections under the slogan of , change, yes we can. For a change, obama should have not blamed bush for the mess...Obama has created his own mess from the day one..
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post 6 frayedcat.
That was so funny,& I`LL bet my boots things are the same today...
(with the British anyway,If they do not understand speak SLOW & LOUD)
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ref #10
A disaster for who? For you, or the free world or the planet as a whole? How much longer are we in the west going spending billions of cash and thousands of lives telling people half a world away how to organise their lives?
When the Cold War finally ended, hardly a shot was fired. It was the triumph of an idea and the death of another which had run it's course. You cannot deliver democracy at the end of a gun barrel. If you are doing it for other reasons, fair enough but please don't cloak it in the language of the greater good.
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I was unafected by having Sharia law (which any rational person should denounce)but I am sure the people beheading for not being moslem enough or the woman being stoned for daring to have an indepndent thought were.
The people who seems to want to rule by the gun barrell are the Tailban who are not supported by the people.
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I was unafected by having Sharia law (which any rational person should denounce)but I am sure the people beheading for not being moslem enough or the woman being stoned for daring to have an indepndent thought were.
The people who seems to want to rule by the gun barrell are the Tailban who are not supported by the people.
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And do you really believe that those people support the afghan army made up of northern alliance, pakistani army and the dronic army of usa? You think that people who are killed by drones, and high tech weapons are lesser deads than those beheaded? they are all dead. Taliban are pathans, and pathans will support pathans not some outsiders who kill their people. Killing without a trial is what drones are doing.
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And do you really believe that those people support the afghan army made up of northern alliance, pakistani army and the dronic army of usa? You think that people who are killed by drones, and high tech weapons are lesser deads than those beheaded? they are all dead. Taliban are pathans, and pathans will support pathans not some outsiders who kill their people. Killing without a trial is what drones are doing.
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Yes I think the majority of Afghans which would include almost all women could care less about the tribal designations onlly the corrupt war lords care about that.
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"Well that's another fine mess you've gotten me into."
Oliver Hardy to Stan Laurel. And if the Obama Biden administration has the look of a Laurel and Hardy comedy about it, it would be at least as funney except that this time it's about us, it is our tragedy not someone elses.
"The other day President Obama sounded personally frustrated when he told an election rally in Virginia that he was busy mopping up a mess others had left. All they could do, he said, was criticise the way he was holding the broom."
It seems to me that just a year ago, Barack Obama had all of the awareness of these problems that any other United States Senator would have had which is to say as much as the President or anyone else had. He ran on the campaign promise that he would fix them. Now for him to complain about them when they are on his shoulders and he can't is the heights of chutzpah (that's an American word now Mr. Mardell, if you don't know what it means perhaps someone could translate it into British for you.) Tony Blair used that line for ten years and got away with it but the honeymoon for American Presidents is far shorter and his is over. Mr. President, fulfill your campaign pledges and fix the problems you said you would. Lead, command, direct, and get the jobs done....or step out of the way and let someone else do it instead. And stop your childish whining. It only makes the situation more irritating.
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Mardell-
In your attempts to understand America, never forget how exceedingly stupid a significant portion of the the population is. Here is a reminder of what you are dealing with.
http://tinyurl.com/mggk
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Once again - the liberals like Obama try to use "western politics" in a world where the rules are different. "Legit Afghan Government in the eyes for Afghan people" are you kidding me? That's not going to happen until there is some sort of infrastructure in a country - which will never happen until the Taliban and Al Queda are removed.
Sometimes, a punch in the face is what is needed and necessary. I know - very unpopular amongst our European friends - but that's a fact.
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#1 "supporting a puppet or a corrupt leader is unacceptable to most Americans"
A comic genius is born.
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Dear Henry,
What was the name of that hotel where you stayed back in the early 1970's? You know. The one that could supply any shape of table required for the big conference.
I was also wondering if you could help me with a guest list to the conference. I know this is all a bit more of a muddle than the conferences you once held. Maybe you would be willing to help with the seating arrangements? Should it be insurgent, Taliban, War Lord, tribal elder, Al Queda, Karzai? Or should we intersperse NATO leaders among them?
What kind of tea does one serve? Orange Pekoe? Certainly not English Breakfast! Rudyard warned me off about that choice.
Please be a dear and help me with all these tedious arrangements. You are so good at it.
Love,
HC
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" You think that people who are killed by drones, and high tech weapons are lesser deads than those beheaded? they are all dead. "
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Yes, I agreee with you....
And the dead's families, are the people, that the USA government has to explain their army troops.
And by the way, Bush DID screw things up humongously for us the remaining taxpayers and voters, (do all rich people even pay taxes?) who must pay for this Afghan/Pak war.
If too many people--including Afghan and Pakistani soldiers--die, there will never be peace and there WILL be a people that hates and remembers our "evil" (indeed) deeds, forever, I agree.
We do need a self--insightful time of reverie or meditation on what is necessary here--
To decide what to do here in this horribly cursed place...when people think hateful things about America is not comparable to
the horrid unspeakable lives that are lived in the Af/Pak border area.
They say "in the news" that Pakistanis hate more and more,us, the USA. We are doling out 7+ billion dollars for "pacification" of this area ...is it wasted money and wasted effort????
I don't know what a million dollars looks like or feels like, much less a billion dollars' looks and feeling.
But, looking at the results in that area, I'm ashamed of our deceitful actions.
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#19. wolfvorkian: "(Mr) Mardell- In your attempts to understand America, never forget how exceedingly stupid a significant portion of the population is. Here is a reminder of what you are dealing with."
The poll you cite was taken six years ago; perhaps you can provide something more up-to-date to validate your disparaging observation. Americans are no more "exceedingly stupid" than their British counterparts who have elected and been duped by "New Labour" since 1997. How stupid can that be? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me - and to think it was not just twice, but thrice!
Considering that this subject is now linked from the front page of the BBC's world news, I fail to see why it is considered suitable for this blog. A correspondent residing in Europe could just as well written the same thing. It doesn't take someone based in Washington to have unique insight to the situation. I thought the former entry was one step ahead, but this is two steps back. Americans do not care about Afghanistan, only that their men are being sent on an endless mission. At what stage does America say enough is enough and, like the British and Russians before them, withdraw completely?
It's no wonder that the more erudite contributors have departed since this is now so focussed on Washington to the virtual exclusion of all else that happens in the United States. There is more (much more!) to life than foreign policy matters.
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sb, now there is a clever argument, if we attack and kill people who are planning to kill us, to destroy our country and have demonstrated that they will stop at nothing if they have the means, they will get angry at us and want to come here and kill us...or kill us anywhere and any way they can. That's one way to react, to roll over and play dead, to play possum. The only problem with playing possum is that you will wind up as possum stew. Just ask Neville Chamberlain if that isn't true. Oops, I forgot that by now he's been likely eaten by the worms.
The only thing that I am ashamed of is that there are Americans who have ice water in their veins instead of rich red American blood. This country was not built on cowardice, squeamishness, sentimentality, or giving quarter to the enemies of freedom. It cost treasure, blood, and lives to win freedom and it will cost the same to keep it. Anyone who is afraid of it can walk out the door and go to some place like Cuba or North Korea where they never send soldiers out to die fighting for a cause. Then how about France?
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Ref 21, HabitualHero
"A comic genius is born."
I am delighted you found my comment amusing.
Regardless of what you may think about us, we like to think our actions are justified and we are fighting for a good cause. Unfortunately for us, our leaders are well aware of our naivete and don't hesitate to exploit it by assuring us that our actions are designed to liberate people that are being abused by their leaders or intent on destroying themselves, we also love to think we are bringing freedom and democracy to other nations even when our actions include removing foreign leaders and replacing them with ones supportive of our interests.
In this case, the need for further deliberation has nothing to do with what is best for the Afghan people, but the need to sell the decision to the American people.
Our limited knowledge of other cultures, and our prejudices of anything foreign, allow unscrupulous politicians to get whatever they want. You have to go no further than the conviction that most Americans still have about Saddam Hussein being involved in 9/11. Innuendo and repetition is far more convincing to the general public than the result of investigations and facts.
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Actually, Neville C. was proved dead wrong.
But, Lyndon Johnson, whom credit is given for his Great Society implementation and desegregation actions was treated by his voters and public for freeing up money and creating the reality of "affirmative action" by... total rejection. (timing is important for historical remembrances)
He was reviled for his role in Vietnam and the coverup of ..what we still don't really know that much about--most probably don't know...in the present time.
So, "good" young people took LSD and joined satanic cults and burned "soldier effegies" in reaction to this "horrible" creature (they said), and so he died clinically depressed, I seem to remember.
And his oh-so-successful successor, Richard Nixon, did horrible things and went to his death being praised, I remember, by Bill Clinton, himself (a symbolic action)
So, one DOES have to be careful of what one does think and do and at what time....
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Apropos my post at #24, this article from another Washington correspondent is likely to be more significant than any concerns about Afghanistan.
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Marcus, I need to go back to work...I'm on unemployment and a layoff from the IRS (I have 2 more months off work). And my posts seem ,even to me, manic and depressing at the same time...
I'm bored. So please, no one take my posts peroonally or seriously lol.
Boredom and not enough money to go somewhere are horrrrible,but I'll get by, no worries or headaches. And no more venting. :))
Marcus, tell us some Russian corny jokes ..wouldnt that be nice??
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24. At 01:18am on 02 Nov 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
"...It's no wonder that the more erudite contributors have departed..."
Quite. And we have two new pernicious trolls, to boot. Gavrielle has made the mistake of feeding one of them.
The blog has changed.
Even Marcus seems to have mellowed - although the second paragraph of #25 is classic Marcus at the top of his form.
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Canard;
"It's no wonder that the more erudite contributors have departed"
I'd like to be the first to point out that YOU are still here.
sb;
Here's one from WebAliceinWonderland in Saint Petersburg Russia she posted on Gavin Hewitt's European blog just an hour or two ago;
"when a drunk Russian is searching for a lost purse under a lamp post. He is asked where he lost it - "I don't know". So, why do you search for it here - it is lighter here."
I love those Russian jokes. They are so corny, silly, and frankly stupid they are funny. One of the most entertaining programs on shortwave and on the internet was Moscow Mailbag with Joe Adamov. He was on the old Radio Moscow and then on Voice of Russia How sorry I was that he died. You can listen to some of his old broadcasts here;
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
I think he was terriffic. He will give you some frank insight into life in Russia and the USSR (he was Armenian) and he always has several of these typical Russian jokes at the end of each broadcast. I hope you enjoy them as much as I do.
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War by itself will not change Afghanistan.
I'd like to know what the US troops are supposed to be doing that will change Afghanistan. Are they building hospitals and thinking that will change the way the people think?
Each time a child is killed that sets everything back. No one will support a military that kills relatives, neighbors and friends. Every death hardens the opposition.
This is not a traditional war and traditional fighting will lose the war.
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22. Publius. Good to hear from you. Hope things are getting better in Detroit. At least the season has started again. We are in the 43rd rebuilding season, and the way things are going, it seems a safe bet that the leafs will be out again in the spring.
# 22 is a funny post. Didn't get it at first.
The tea should be Earl Grey ...
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31. MAII
Actually, we have pretty much exactly the same joke in English about looking under the streetlight. It is an old joke, but still funny.
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What is the NIE view of what is going on in Afghanistan?
In 2008 the draft report from the NIE was warning of what we are seeing now..with corruption in Karzai's government and militants in Pakistan.
Who is running this thing? the Pentagon? They are the wrong people for this kind of action.
Obama has to limit the military and give the strategy over to people involved in intelligence...
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My favorite one, Marcus, is the one where "our foreign secretary (...) goes to Moscow and comes back and presents an agreement to the president-
President Obama looks at her and says,
"You have presented me a deal here, that says ...
"We keep the miaaile shield in Eastern Europe, but they'll be based in Russia and pointing toward the West, towards the USA.
"And we, the Americans, will pay for this defensive shield FOR THE RUSSIAN NATION."
An obviously hungover H. Clinton says, "Damn those Russians are WILY."
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"The conflict will be won by persuading the population, not by destroying the enemy."
"A military force, culturally programmed to respond conventionally (and predictably) to insurgent attacks, is akin to the bull that repeatedly charges a matador's cape – only to tire and eventually be defeated by a much weaker opponent. This is predictable, the bull does what comes naturally. While a conventional approach is instinctive, that behavior is self-defeating."
both quotes from the top US commander in Afghanistan,
General Stanley McChrystal
The bull is the US!!!!
This is NOT! a conventional war.
The US had close to 500,000 troops in Viet Nam and could not win there.
What strategies are planned to win over the people of Afghanistan?
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InterestedForeigner-
Good to hear from you also. You can always move to Windsor and become a Wings fan;-)
I knew if anyone caught on to my earlier post, it would be you.
Excellent suggestion on the Earl Gray. The fragrant bergamot may just prove to be the calming ingredient needed for successful negotiations. Does much better at promoting a peaceful atmosphere than cordite.
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26. St. D, and 21, Habitual
St. D. is right on this.
We are being asked to spend a lot of money, and to send decent young boys to their deaths, for what?
To support an irredeemibly corrupt local government?
A government that clearly cannot have the genuine support of its own population if feel the need to stuff ballot boxes?
Our kids are going to die supporting that?
Forget it.
That just isn't going to cut it in North America, or anywhere else. Every NATO country is being pressed not merely to stay in Afghanistan, but to increase their troop levels. But there is no way any western politician is going to be able to get a commitment to increase troop levels through a democratic legislature with the voting fraud seen in the Afghan election. It just isn't going to happen.
Karzai simply has to go, or western forces have to leave. There are no other choices. Western public opinion will not tolerate having kids killed to support some kind of corrupt, drug-lord complicit regime.
It's not on.
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It will be embarrassing when the Taliban return to power, but if the Afghan people themselves are not prepared to fight against this outcome then that is what is going to happen. We cannot make that decision for them, and if we try to achieve that result against public opposition, our forces are just too small.
It will be even more embarrassing when the Taliban welcome Bin Laden back into Kabul with a hero's welcome. But that might very well happen, too. While that is hard to accept, the cost of trying to prevent that outcome is very high, and the range of options available is really, really poor.
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This war went astray eight years ago at Tora Bora.
And then it went further astray when the US government of the day decided that chasing Bin Laden wasn't really that important after all. Instead they decided it was payback time for Saddam Hussein.
Now, eight years on, we are involved in a struggle that has gone way off track, with a force that is way too small to do the job, to support a government that demonstrably does not merit support, and that is losing the war because it is alienating its own people. We are getting involved in internal Afghan politics, that we do not understand well, in what amounts to a three way civil war, with aims and objectives that have almost nothing to do with the original purpose of the despatch of the expeditionary force.
It is time to call it a day here.
There is nothing we can do in the present situation that is going to unravel this problem. Every civilian killed adds a hundred new recruits to the Taliban cause.
Bin Laden got away.
(Well, at least for now. He will always be a hunted man.)
Swallow our pride.
Bring the troops home.
Stop wasting lives and money.
Contract out the law enforcement problem.
America has other more pressing problems that it needs to address.
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Just recently returned from a road trip across the "heartland" of the United States. Michigan to Wyoming and back. One purpose was to deliver some important winter things like snowshoes and cross-country skies to my son, now attending college in Wyoming. The other was to get a 'reading' from the people of the "heartland".
Had long, very enjoyable chats with well over a hundred people I met during my travels. People from Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, and Wyoming. As well as fellow travelers from California, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Montana... There was not one "stupid" citizen in my small sampling. On the contrary; they were very well informed about their communities, what is taking place in our nation, as well as what is taking place in the world.
One must get out of one's neighborhood before they judge the intellect of their fellow citizens across their nation.
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The future for Afghanistan is civil war and destabilization of the area.
There will be a power vacuum which will nurture the taliban and other extreme groups.
This has the potential to spill over into Pakistan and they have nuclear weapons.
The mess in Afghanistan happened for at least two reasons.
1 Afghanistan was ignored when the Bush administration focused on Iraq
2. Conventional war time strategy was used to kill opponents (This is not a conventional war)
The US must engage the Afghani people. The Karzai government is corrupt.
Where are the US schools teaching the languages of Afghanistan and Pakistan?
What has been done to reach out to the people of these nations?
What do Americans know of the conflict and about the region?
Where are the news programs explaining our options and what has been happening?
There can be no national discussion because the American people are ignorant.
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Of course, all 100% correct, but why does everyone seem so surprised ?
Doesn't anyone remember 35 years ago when America was trying to protect a series of shaky military governments in S.E. Asia from the forces of evil.
No elections here, just coup after coup as Americans and others died in their thousands.
Would Viet Nam be a better place now if democracy had prevailed then ? I doubt it.
Take a deep breath Mr President, look at the last 150 years or so of Afghan history, and get out of there.
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"But what they really mean is that it must be legitimate in the eyes of the American people ..."
Actually, you should replace the word legitimate with the word workable.
What we want to hear from our President is a workable plan based on reasonably settled facts. If Abdulah Abdulah is out and Kharzi is going to run the state, well, so be it. If the settled facts are that no government head can lead the people and we need to leave, well, so be it. If the settled facts are such that we we can see an occupation option that ends with incremental withdrawal, well, so be it.
Because its not very heroic, no one wants to tell us the key to protecting any nation from terrorists, as has been shown time and again in the past five years, is good police work, not sending our Army to protect us from our conservatives' fairy tales.
The Pakistanis have been bit by the Taliban. Lo and behold, they charged out into the country side and started slaughtering the Taliban. They can protect themselves.
Arguing what will happen if Abdulah Abdulah drops out is about like arguing how many angels can do the fox trot on a pin head. The question is irrelevant since what the American people really want to know is what are the facts, so we, too, can make judgments about our future and not merely feel led around on a harness. At least, that's how representative government is supposed to work.
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#41. At 04:06am on 02 Nov 2009, bethpa wrote: "The Karzai government is corrupt."
And who elevated him to power? And by the look of things at the moment, he's going to stay in power whether we like it or not.
"Where are the US schools teaching the languages of Afghanistan and Pakistan?"
They have a hard enough time teaching English, let alone a language students will likely never use.
"There can be no national discussion because the American people are ignorant."
No, they're not ignorant. Uninformed perhaps, but not ignorant. In any case, for many (if not most) people there are more pressing concerns, like keeping a roof over their head, feeding a family, struggling with healthcare. Mr Karzai is not on their list of priorities.
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Um excuse me but....as I recall....it was less than a year and a half ago that....Democrats were shouting from the rooftops about the war in Iraq, GITMO, the war in Afghanitan. As I recall they were falling all over themselves trying to outdo each other criticizing President Bush's policies. Well we've had a new president, the one they wanted most for nine months now. American troops are still in Iraq leaving pretty much along the timetable the Bush Administration had set. GITMO is still open for business and while there's been talk, there's been no "change on the ground" there. And Afghanistan is worse than ever. Not only hasn't President Obama complied with the demands for 40,000 more troops from his expert General McChrystal but McChrystal has warned him that if there isn't an improvement in the situation by a year from now, we will lose.
I only bring this up becuase suddenly I've noticed ......THAT THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING. Where are those shrill voices we heard? Where is Congressman Murtha who wanted to cut and run out of Iraq immediately? Where is Michael Moore who took particular delight in criticizing President Bush for the policies President Obama whom he supported is also following? One Democrat seems to have gotten it right, Senator Clinton when she said around April of 2008 that Barack Obama was not fit to be the Commander-in-Chief. Perhaps someone should call him at two AM and tell him there's a crisis that needs to be seen to right away. And I think that call should come from former Senator and now Secretary of State Clinton herself. Tell him to get on the stick Madam Secretary. Time is running out.
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#1 StDom
"supporting a puppet or a corrupt leader is unacceptable to most Americans."
Although I agree generally with much of what you write, and even if I don't you present in a civilised and educated way .... but historiclly I would take issue with this statement.
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20 europeislame (Marcus, do you have a new user-name, or just a friend!)
"Sometimes, a punch in the face is what is needed and necessary"
Al Qaeda tried to punch the USA (and the rest of the world)in the face for reasons they believed were "necessary".
Did it make the USA stop? Why do you think the Afghans will respond to your short sharp shock?
The more you punch out blindly, hitting all sorts of innocent bystanders along the way, the more you fuel their cause, adding the justification that was missing from the original attacks.
Find Al-Qaeda by all means, but otherwise you're just compounding the problem. If you can't see that after 8 years you've got your eyes shut.
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23 stellar
"there WILL be a people that hates and remembers our "evil" (indeed) deeds forever"
This is very true (and slightly concerning). Blood feuds can last for generations - they never forget. Our grandchildren may still be paying for this - and with the way the education system is going they won't understand why!
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@16 (ca): One minor point: If you didn't know, the "drones" are not self-piloting or autonomous robots. They are machines being flown by flesh-and-blood pilots sitting in other places.
Arclight
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@46 (rs) I think StD is partly correct here. I don't think we support corrupt leaders, but I do think that our threshold for deciding to pull support is probably set too high (in other words, we wait too long before deciding to pull the plug). That's certainly true in domestic politics.
@1(StD): As you know, I'm not in quite the same place relative to these two conflicts that you are in; however, I can certainly agree that we have mismanaged them to the point that whatever good we might have intended to accomplish is going to be lost in the shuffle.
We simply MUST move beyond both infantile visions of war: (a) a thing to be avoided at ALL costs, regardless of what those costs are, or who pays them, and (b) a video game that has no costs to be accounted for. We then have to have a very high threshold for moving to a war footing, and an utter commitment to WIN if we ever begin. I for one am thoroughly tired of soldiers being used up as pawns, with this nation never really committing itself to them the way they commit to us. Enough is well past enough!
Finally, if anyone holding a position within a public office utters the term "nation-building" again, they should be immediately ejected from whatever office they are in. That idea is delusional, and has cost us far too much over the past 17 years (since Somalia).
Partly cloudy here just off the Capitol Beltway in Washy DC this AM...
Arclight
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@35,37 (bp): Very good questions. Let us encourage our leaders to come up with some real answers.
All: Food for thought: Why should the US maintain bases all over the world, and push monies into the local economies? The UK doesn't maintain forces here; neither do the Germans, or the Japanese. Why should we?
Arclight
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ref #50
We simply MUST move beyond both infantile visions of war: (a) a thing to be avoided at ALL costs, regardless of what those costs are, or who pays them, and (b) a video game that has no costs to be accounted for. We then have to have a very high threshold for moving to a war footing, and an utter commitment to WIN if we ever begin. I for one am thoroughly tired of soldiers being used up as pawns, with this nation never really committing itself to them the way they commit to us. Enough is well past enough!
_______________________
So lets get this straight, you want to avoid war if the U.S is attacked by Islamic terrorist, would you have surrendered after Pearl Harbor? The idea that the U.S goes to war without exploring all other avenues is a farce, but what is true that too many people did not learn the history of WW2 and the price of appeasement
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Ref 52, Magic
"So lets get this straight, you want to avoid war if the U.S is attacked by Islamic terrorist, would you have surrendered after Pearl Harbor?"
The difference is that the Pearl Harbor attack was ordered and carried out by the imperial government of Japan; and 9/11 was planned, financed and carried out by a terrorist organization with no links or loyalty to any government or nation.
Unfortunately, we do not seem to understand the difference. Even after our own government, and even President Bush, acknowledged that there was no evidence of collusion between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda on 9/11, we continue to pursue the fallacy of a global Islamic conspiracy against our country.
I disagree with David on the issue of ignorance, if nothing else because the alternative is to acknowledge a perverse desire to exact revenge on people whose only guilt is their physiognomy, religion, language and attire.
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Ref 50, arclightt
"@46 (rs) I think StD is partly correct here. I don't think we support corrupt leaders, but I do think that our threshold for deciding to pull support is probably set too high (in other words, we wait too long before deciding to pull the plug). That's certainly true in domestic politics."
I believe our reticence to support dictators is based more on the need to feel good and righteous to justify policies and actions that would normally be rejected by most civilized persons.
When we rationalize events such as Nagasaki and Hiroshima we claim saving lives as a justification, and when we address the issue of hundreds of thousands of innocent people slaughtered in Iraq since the invasion we pretend the atrocities were carried out by someone else and that the thousands of bombs and millions of bullets we have used in that country were used only for target practice. Never mind who the targets were.
A similar line of thinking is used to justify Israel's expansionist policies, the slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians, and the de facto imprisonment of millions of people in virtual concentration camps.
At the core of our rationalization process is religion and the belief that our God is better than theirs. As a result, our actions are not only justified but are carried out in the name of a Supreme Being.
BTW, the reason I abandoned my pseudo "Sainthood" is because I could not log on using my old monicker and ended up using my real name to re-register.
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@52 (MK): "So lets get this straight, you want to avoid war if the U.S is attacked by Islamic terrorist, would you have surrendered after Pearl Harbor? The idea that the U.S goes to war without exploring all other avenues is a farce, but what is true that too many people did not learn the history of WW2 and the price of appeasement".
Magic, how could you possibly read that from what I wrote? Did you not see that one of the two infantile visions of war is "...a thing to be avoided at all costs, regardless of what those costs are, or who pays them..."? That's one of the two behaviors that we MUST move beyond. The other is the one that launches into a military effort without a real assessment of the costs, and a real commitment by the nation to win.
Finally, I hate to write this, but our actions leading up to the Spanish-American War, and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and its aftermath, suggest that the US has not always been as squeaky-clean in its "exploring all other avenues" as we might want to claim. Certainly a sober assessment of the costs of going to war is part of that "exploring all other avenues"; yet for the past 17 years or so we have seen this nation launch into various military activities without the following:
a. A firm assessment of the costs
b. A firm, realistic plan, with an equally-realistic projection of the likelihood of success
c. A firm, realistic plan for the aftermath
d. A real understanding of the nature of our enemies
e. A firm commitment to bear the costs openly (through either higher taxes or spending cuts elsewhere) and stay until the victory is achieved.
Verifying that all this has really been done is part of the proper role of the Congress as they exercise their responsibility to "declare war". When exactly was the last time the Congress really did its job in this arena?
Arclight
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Montani Semper Liberi. I think the point is and history proves that a war in Afghanistan can't be "won". You're just going to beat your head against rocks until you have to leave them to themselves again.
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Stewed in Rome;
"20 europeislame (Marcus, do you have a new user-name, or just a friend!)"
I only post under one moniker. But I would never choose a moniker like europeislame. Maybe europeisslime but not europeislame. What makes you think he is my friend? A punch in the face? When have I ever advocated a punch in the face?
""Sometimes, a punch in the face is what is needed and necessary""
I don't see it that way at all. I am not easily provoked to violence but when I am, I do not believe in "proportional response" or "sending messages." If I am going to attack someone, I will try to make the first blow a death blow and I will be relentless. And I do believe in pre-emptive self defense. I'm not going to wait for a rattlesnake to bite me before I shoot its head off. I'm not going to wait for Hitler to invade Czechoslovakia or Poland, I'd have moved in with all guns blazing at the first sign of re-armament. And I would not have allowed Nazi Germany the luxury of secrecy in re-arming itself. My motto is "don't trust, just verify...as intrusively and frequently as possible."
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Gherkin you do not denounce those nations that hang and execute people for partaking in a puff of the cannabis. some say they are "daring to have an indepndent thought"
I agree thatt murdering women for being women is criminal and have always said ANy death penalty is wrong.
but you pick and choose according to the victim .
How is it you cannot see that there are plenty of murderous states.
Also that the guy you love GW (forget trying to pretend otherwise at this stage) he executed more people than any other as the hangman on texas. and agian I mention this because you america can't do wrongers have tried time and time again to pretend he had no such record or that they were guilty although we KNOW quite a few were not.
Many of those Sharia laws punishments may not have had the same outcome if there was a different man applying the law, with a different interpretation.
Just as if there was a better Gov of texas than Bush there may have been a few less innocent people executed under his terms.
We hear about Isolated incidents that we can only pray don't turn into more wide spread incidents.
I have no time for wife beating misogynists , but then I have little time for the talliban as well.
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54 dominickvila
good to see your back to your old self
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DC24 lol I agree that they were duped by new labour
but after years of being duped by the tories they wanted a change of scenery.
Did you leave the UK when the labour party put taxes up. you must have done very well.;)
Gherkin I think it would do you some good to reflect on the anniversary of Pinchet bloody coup that was supported by the USA.
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ref #53
The difference is that the Pearl Harbor attack was ordered and carried out by the imperial government of Japan; and 9/11 was planned, financed and carried out by a terrorist organization with no links or loyalty to any government or nation.
Unfortunately, we do not seem to understand the difference. Even after our own government, and even President Bush, acknowledged that there was no evidence of collusion between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda on 9/11, we continue to pursue the fallacy of a global Islamic conspiracy against our country.
__________________________-
But it does not alter the fact of the threat of islamic terrorism or that by countries like Afghanatan and Pakistan (previously and still in some case still) or Lebanon and syria giving them free sactuary on the excuse of hospitality.
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Marcus you say don't trust and verify etc.
(Iran N korea Britain and France)(another pile of MA crap)
but you also say we should not check Israel AT ALL.
Why the double standard?
Why should the other countries be allowed to poke their noses where it don't belong.
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Bush Ignored his generals and sacked them.
if they disagreed.
Donny the rumbler was his man.
Bush Ignored the hearts and minds and talked of Crusades.
Strange thing is Obama Has done what the right wanted and so far all they do is bitch.
MA and Gherky both WISH Obama to continue drone attacks.
But they criticise him for doing so.
Proving that
"there is no pleasing a spoilt brat"
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Gherkin have you seen that the people being arrested for suspected planning of terrorism in the USA are not generally Pakistani or Afghani?
That they are here.
Be afriad Gherkin they are coming for you.
Sorry just kidding . don't take it all so seriously
Those conscripts in the Chilean army that were forced to torture and kill people that were featured on the BBC world news (well done BBC) supported by US interests d they have the right to "hit back" at america for it's crimes against them.
is it only america that is allowed to feel hurt after loosing people.
You seem to think it is.
Lebannon and syria.
they are both occupied countries that do not fight back as they could be considered entitled to.
IF and this is a big IF.
IF they were the USA or Israel.
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ref #58
How is it you cannot see that there are plenty of murderous states.
Also that the guy you love GW (forget trying to pretend otherwise at this stage) he executed more people than any other as the hangman on texas. and agian I mention this because you america can't do wrongers have tried time and time again to pretend he had no such record or that they were guilty although we KNOW quite a few were not.
Many of those Sharia laws punishments may not have had the same outcome if there was a different man applying the law, with a different interpretation.
Just as if there was a better Gov of texas than Bush there may have been a few less innocent people executed under his terms.
We hear about Isolated incidents that we can only pray don't turn into more wide spread incidents.
I have no time for wife beating misogynists , but then I have little time for the talliban as well.
_______________--
Do you really equate a justice system with major appeals process to Sharia law? And how do you know that people under executed were innocent? I know you have major BDS, but does that mean any state that has capitol punishment is a illegal state.
as far loving GWB I disagree with him on many issues but he is far wiser than Obama and we would have done far worse with Gore or Kerry
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I want to help the people of Afghanistan, particularly the women.
Much of the electoral fraud that is going on is connected to the restrictions for women in voting.
you can read about it here:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jsXjwwXo-ChThgRtKWG-5sAB7NUQD9BLIM3G0
Fraud surrounds women voters in Afghan election
By HEIDI VOGT (AP) – 2 days ago
KABUL — One man cast 35 votes for female relatives. Others lugged in sacks full of voting cards they said were from women. And in a village of just 250 people, 200 women supposedly voted in three hours.
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#44 David_Cunard
The national Afghan government is corrupt and it will be corrupt whoever is in power.
People don't know what they don't know....(including me) There is much that is unknown
Too many Americans think the answer to every problem is to impose American culture.
Imo the emphasis should be on human rights and education (not democracy)
and uniting with other nations with similar values in human rights..
Many Americans do not have the information to make sound decisions.
Half the Americans here are still fighting WWII and the other half remember Viet Nam.
The US news media is not an honest purveyor of the truth. They are too easily spreading statements that look like lies to me.
By the way imo Hillary Clinton is doing an excellent job.
She is a tough and committed woman who is fighting for people in a world filled with criminals and psychopaths in positions of power.
The US has brilliant people, (like Hillary)...the problem is not the most educated of America. The problem is the people who are not curious and who are not willing to learn.
it is ironic that the popular media in America, in the form of tv and movies, is showing dead and mutilated bodies commonly, while the news media rarely if ever shows the results of war on civilian populations or on our own troops.
I think people don't want to know the truth because it is so overwhelming.... Their thinking ..."I'll just concentrate on my own little world and not vote. That will absolve me of the consequences of what my nation is doing....and I can be a good person..."
Imo if you do not vote and you do not educate yourself and seriously think of your responsibility as an American you are at best amoral.
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Magic – I think that may have been Freudian on your part, no country other than the US can have capitol punishment, since the temple of Jupiter in Rome is no longer active. I think you meant capital punishment, rather than punishment dished out by Washington! My view of capital and probably capitol is pretty low.
Marcus – H’mmm still trying to prove your manhood I see, your post read a long the lines of ‘don’t make me angry, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry!’ Not sure anyone should advocate a foreign policy based on the Hulk.
Europeislame – Wow what a delightful moniker, though obviously wrong (most of can walk quite happily), did it take you long to think of or did you mommy suggest it to you?
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fluff;
"Marcus you say don't trust and verify etc.
(Iran N korea Britain and France)(another pile of MA crap)
but you also say we should not check Israel AT ALL.
Why the double standard?"
No double standard at all. I do not see that Israel is any threat whatsoever to the US. I never heard Israel's government talk about erasing another UN member state from the map of the world. Seems entirely consistent to me.
"MA and Gherky both WISH Obama to continue drone attacks.
But they criticise him for doing so.
Proving that
"there is no pleasing a spoilt brat""
I can only speak for myself fluffster but I wish President Obama well in his efforts to attack al Qaeda and the Taleban in their seeming sanctuary in Pakistan with missiles fired from drones or whatever other means he chooses to deploy. I simply criticize his hesitation in fighting the war in Afghanistan more forcefully and holding the military committment and the safety of our own troops as hostage to the capricious whims of local Afghan politics. This should not enter into his computations. We often support less than ideal governments, even cruel dictatorships in the pursuit of our own national interests. That should not give us cause for concern or restraint. We are not responsible for whether or not Afghanistan has a democratic government. We are there to prevent the re-emergence of a Taleban ruled state that will again give sanctuary to al Qaeda and that is the only reason we are still there.
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The legitimacy of the government of Afghanistan would be more important if our mission were to restore legitimate government, but it is not. Our mission is to take down al Qaeda; the government is only important in so far as it helps or hinders us in our primary mission. As long as we are making progress against our enemies, we must take the government presented, and do the best we can to work with it.
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We know how Bush held the broom, now let us see how Obama does.
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Marcus – So you see France and Britain as threats to the US?
That is the impression you have given, also when have France or Britain threatened to wipe another UN member off the map, also which UN member?
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I'm posting this separately because the last time I posted it, it was deleted by the moderators.
fluffster, my loyalties are to America, not to Israel. Were it up to me, Jonathan Pollard would spend the rest of his life rotting in jail and the Israeli diplomat and his wife whom he was delivering stolen classified documents to in the US would have quietly disappeared, their bones still bleaching out in the remote desert sun. This would have sent a message to Israel that there are real limits to what America will tolerate from it and consequences for crossing that line are also real. Although this theft was initiated by Pollard himself, exploiting it was about as dumb a move as Israel could have made. Instead they should have turned him over to the FBI immediately.
I have no problem though with Israel spying on its enemies like Britain and France. Especially France. It is a well known fact that French industrial spies have been operating in the US for the longest time. France is as obsessed with its technological inferiority to the United States as it is with America's cultural hegemony France had hoped to exercise over the world itself. Lots of reasons for French jealousy and rage at America. Entirely irrational of course but understandable given the French penchant for false nationalistic pride.
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DRMu;
"Marcus – H’mmm still trying to prove your manhood I see, your post read a long the lines of ‘don’t make me angry, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry"
Actually, it's not that I don't want you to make me angry, I don't want you to make me laugh so hard. My sides ache already from reading your inane postings. Please, cut it out already. I can't take anymore.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
DMu;
"Marcus – So you see France and Britain as threats to the US?"
Not as military threats but the US is at war with them and the rest of Europe in every other meaningful way. It is hard to find even one area where their views and interests do not come into sharp conflict. This war was instigated by Europe totally unnecessarily. It was an act of political cynicism on the parts of Gerhard Schroeder and Jacques Chirac and found fertile soil in the bruised egos of Europe's populations. It's a war Europe cannot afford to lose yet cannot win. It has taken a giant leap over the precipice from which there is no turning back. President Obama offered to throw it a lifeline if it would meet him halfway but it seems to have ignored that offer. Personally I couldn't care less. One way or another, Copenhagen will turn out to be a fiasco. Even if Obama tries to give the store away, the US Senate will not go along with him.
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ref #68Magic – I think that may have been Freudian on your part, no country other than the US can have capitol punishment, since the temple of Jupiter in Rome is no longer active. I think you meant capital punishment, rather than punishment dished out by Washington! My view of capital and probably capitol is pretty low.
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Did you read what I was replying to? Fluff brain was equating Bush and the Texas legal system to the actions of the Tailban? there is a lengthy appeals process and that sentanace is not given out gratiously in Texas. You can be against the death penalty but even in liberal Mass it almsot 50/50 among the residents and almost pass the liberal state house a few years ago.
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#73 Marcus
Now, not only are you misjudging the mood in your trailer for the entire US, but also for Israel. Israel's allies have always been the USA and Europe. Europe has always had a racist disposition towards the Arabs (you can also tell by the views of the European settlers in Israel), but what's America's and your excuse?
Your anti-European posturing falls no-one except yourself. With your anti-Arab racism you are more European then most Brits. You try to hide from the truth of which you belong, but alas in vain.
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#76 - MarcusAureliusII
". . . but the US is at war with them and the rest of Europe in every other meaningful way".
Oh, so not friendly fire then?
Shall we leave Afghanistan now? It will leave you with fewer enemies to deal with.
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Ref 56, frayedcat
"I think the point is and history proves that a war in Afghanistan can't be "won". You're just going to beat your head against rocks until you have to leave them to themselves again."
The most fundamental problem with our crusade in Afghanistan is that we don't have a clue what would constitute winning. Winning what? Forcing people who do not share our values and way of life to adopt ours? Denying terrorists the ability to have training camps in that country and forcing them to relocate to Yemen, Sudan, Somalia or other countries? Putting people in power that are not supported by the indigenous population?
It doesn't look like the Pathans and Pashtuns are going to cry uncle any time soon, and since our ability to finance a robust presence in that country is far from certain (unless China decides to finance our crusade and join us in paving the way for the Second Coming of the Lord) maybe it is time to start considering a save-face exist strategy...
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The US has western values about human rights and should unite with Europe.
Any antagonism that is encouraged between Europe and the US is counter productive.
In short:
We need you!
We need each other!
: )
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Likening the NATO action against al Qaeda to a "crusade" (#80) is absurd. Over-the-top metaphors do not add any strength to an argument but merely betray the weakness of its foundation.
We attack al Qaeda to destroy their power to attack us. Exporting "our values and way of life" has nothing whatever to do with it.
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Warrior societies tend to look for someone to fight.
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Ref 82, GH1618
"Likening the NATO action against al Qaeda to a "crusade" (#80) is absurd."
Most of what President Bush was absurd, but he was right on the mark when he called our operations in the Persian Gulf region a crusade. What is really disingenous is pretending that the invasion of Afghanistan is a "NATO action". NATO joined us in Afghanistan when our self-prescribed war President gave the world the ultimatum "you are either with us or you are against us".
"We attack al Qaeda to destroy their power to attack us."
The low level Al Qaeda training camps were destroyed within a couple of days of the invasion and evidence of an Al Qaeda presence in Afghanistan is tenuous at best. We are fighting the Taliban, and by default the Pathans and Pashtuns that embrace the ideology and way of life they espouse.
Guerrilla operations can not be defeated without the help of the population, and it is becoming increasingly evident that we do not enjoy popular support and that most Afghans are either active Taliban members or support the organization in their opposition to a foreign invasion, pretty much the way we would under similar circumstances.
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It seems that former president George W. Bush did, indeed, use the word "crusade":
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html
A stupid remark (not his first), which European leaders rightly rejected.
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#80 Oh yes - I can see the face saving exercises now...
'excuse us for violently occupying your country and accidentally possibly bombing the odd wedding party or ally (not saying we did mind you), would you chaps keep a lid on terrorist camps for us and we'll just toodle on home now, sorry we couldn't help with that human rights Taleban issue - I do hope they've mellowed. Here's my card, please have Mr. Bin Laden call me if you happen to run into him.'
or...
"If you want to save face, keep the lower half shut" - Ann Landers
or... inundate the country with money and Walmarts, that would probably do the trick at half the price.
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ref 78, dceilar wrote:
#73 Marcus
Now, not only are you misjudging the mood in your trailer for the entire US, but also for Israel. Israel's allies have always been the USA and Europe. Europe has always had a racist disposition towards the Arabs (you can also tell by the views of the European settlers in Israel), but what's America's and your excuse?
Your anti-European posturing falls no-one except yourself. With your anti-Arab racism you are more European then most Brits. You try to hide from the truth of which you belong, but alas in vain.
_________________________
You obviously miised the pro palestinian demonstration when Hamas was firing missles into Israel.
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ref #82 and 84
O.K crusade was a poor choice of words.
But how many times do Arab leaders call other infidels
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MagicKirin (#88) "But how many times do Arab leaders call other infidels?"
I think you mean Muslim leaders, or leaders of Islamic states. Some do, and they are reminders of the advantages of a secular state.
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threnodious;
"Shall we leave Afghanistan now? It will leave you with fewer enemies to deal with."
You might as well leave. For all the good Europe's done there, we'd hardly notice the difference. For example, Estonia is doing more of the fighting than Germany. How convenient for Germany to hide behind its constitution so that it has an excuse not to fight, not to fulfill its obligation under what is supposed to be a mutual defense pact. But as the fate of the growth and stability pact in Maastrict shows, whatever Europeans sign doesn't mean much when it comes time to act. As with Magrahi and so much more, European promises are worthless.
Of course British soldiers might have made some difference...if they'd been sent into battle with adequate equipment. But the British government had other priorities for its money. 25 billion to bail out Northern Rock, then 50 billiion, then a hundred billion but not many shillings left over to spend on equipping its sons it sent into battle, not for properly equipping them to fight. What a scandal.
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#90 - MarcusAureliusII
"What a scandal".
For once I agree completely.
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#90 Marcus
How convenient for Germany to hide behind its constitution so that it has an excuse not to fight, not to fulfill its obligation under what is supposed to be a mutual defense pact.
For someone who claims to be an expert on WW2 you should know fully well why Germany has the constitution that it has. Also, you mention NATO's mutual defence pact, but don't mention the fact that Afghanistan didn't invade anybody. Should we have invaded Saudi Arabia instead?
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To MAII #57
Hpw do you distinguish between "pre-emptive self defense" and attack?
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Here is Article 5 of The North Atlantic Treaty in its entirety:
"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security."
There is nothing in there about "invasion" (see post #92). Al Qaeda attacked the United States. They were based largely in Afghanistan, and protected by the then government of Afghanistan. The United States, with its NATO allies, has taken "such action as it deems necessary" etc. When the Security Council takes "measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security" from al Qaeda, then NATO should stand down. In the meantime, NATO will do what it needs to do to protect its members from further attacks.
It's not that complicated when you refer to the actual documents. When the documents are ignored, and spurious words like "invasion" are introduced, that is either intellectual laziness or deliberate spin, probably the latter.
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marko
"To MAII #57
Hpw do you distinguish between "pre-emptive self defense" and attack?"
When you see your neighbor receiving truckloads of guns and ammo, hanging swastikas out his windows, and handing out pamphlets to all passerbys telling them to kill the *&^%$#^* you will know that if the police won't act, you'd better take matters into your own hands if you want to remain alive. Deal with the consequenes of it later. Better a live accused killer than a dead martyr waiting to be hit first. I have no problem with that. I don't think my government does either.
deep in the cellar #92;
I never claimed to be an expert on WWII. However, I think if I added up all the people I saw killed in movies and news reel footage about WWII on TV and in theaters in my life, I've seen more of those deaths than actually died in the war.
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Oh my, it's the Europeans v. the Americans again. Shocking.
Firstly, to the Europeans: we're trying to get out of there. Nobody in this country wants to destroy what's left of Afghanistan. Yet something must be done to stabilize the place a little before we leave, and we must do it, because frankly Europe isn't helping at all. That is the big deal behind the recent election fiasco there. We want Afghanistan to have a legitimate leader so it will be able to take care of itself after we leave. Also, don't even hide behind the whole "I'm European, we love peace" facade. We know your history too. What would you have done if a bunch of guys crashed airliners into the two tallest buildings in London? Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan at the time. Nobody is arguing that. That's why we didn't invade Saudi Arabia, smartass.
Secondly, to the Americans: I mean, you know that the UK has been in Afghanistan too, and got taken to school by the very same kinds of people who are now blowing up our convoys, right? Also, we did invade a bunch of places. I wonder how many of the Americans posting here voted Bush. I can't stand when people get on Obama's case about "apologizing for America." Uh, we should apologize. Have a little humility. I'm getting a little tired of defending the gun-toting, evangelical, hawkish conservatives among us. Ya'll screwed things up. Most of the country voted for our current egghead-in-chief because they realized that it's going to take an intelligent, considerate leader to fix this mess.
Lastly, this Afghanistan situation is teaching us a great deal about who our friends are. Frankly, and I think I can speak for a lot of Americans here, we're all a little shocked at how little assistance we've gotten since Obama took office, especially considering how conciliatory we've been compared to before. Everyone around the world was loving our new president until he started trying to do his job. Uh, what did everyone expect? Did you think we were going to start using the Euro and stop eating McDonald's and watching NASCAR? Don't be silly.
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Ref 92, dceilar
"Should we have invaded Saudi Arabia instead?"
Considering that Osama bin Laden and most of the planners, financiers, and the terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia that would have made a lot more sense than attacking Afghanistan and Iraq, although the destruction of the Al Qaeda training camps and operational cells in Afghanistan, Somalia and Yemen was, in my opinion, necessary.
Again, we must learn to differentiate between state-sponsored activities and those carried out by a terrorist organization. I can just imagine the outcry if our country had decided to punish the state where Timothy McVeigh was born and raised.
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#96 Matt
The other nations aren't helping possibly because their intelligence is telling them that this is unwinable. If that is true..should they send their young people to die in a war that can't be won?
Imo it is not possible now to have a democracy in Afghanistan. There will not be a legitimate leader...the culture has to change first...and changing a culture is not done with a war..unless you are willing to destroy the other completely..and that is not going to be done by America.
I would support troops in Afghanistan if I knew what the strategy was... but without a clear strategy then I think it would be better to have a small number of troops and rely on spies and under cover surveillance to stop terrorists that might endanger America.
Americans imo are too simplistic about how to deal with the culture clash. People think too often in terms of war or no war. There are other ways that might be more successful...but Americans rarely hear about the alternatives to war.
# 83. At 8:04pm on 02 Nov 2009, ghostofsichuan wrote:
Warrior societies tend to look for someone to fight.
It is no secret that the US has hired mercenaries ( Black water, Khaki) to conduct some of the military operations. Given the realities of war most Americans imo reject it... thats why we see so little of the results of the weaponry used and the people killed on tv ...
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First, kudos to you Matt; you got it right for the most part. Though I'm more critical of the Obama apologies than you are, I'm not against showing a little humility.
In ref. to MAII #73:
That's an interesting spin Marcus. I'm no lover of France mind you, but after hurricane Katrina there were plenty of whispers here and there about Louisiana being sold back to France to avoid the cost of rebuilding the region. I'm certain it was all hog wash given all the inaccurate rumors flooding out of New Orleans at the time, but God forbid there was ever any truth to such an unforgivable abandonment; in that case I'd be happy for my state to return to France. Maybe we'd teach the US a lesson by bring our Guard troops home, sending our oil and gas to power France, and filling our treasury with a river navigation tax. So you see, it's not always that simple to put the hate on France.
And lastly, has anyone else noticed how quickly this runoff boycott mess evaporated? I suppose the Obama adm. did what they felt they had to do to give some semblance of legitimacy to the Afghan government, but I come away from all this feeling disgusted and uneasy. Having a presidential challenger boycott a runoff sounds like a far more serious political dysfunction than having a challenger exit or bow out of the race; am I wrong or just confused by a poor translation of Abdullah Abdullah's actions?
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Bill Moyers opposes the escalation of the war in Afghanistan.
If the US had a real news media this point of view would be common knowledge ....but these views are hidden...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Wnb1HztXY
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84. At 8:27pm on 02 Nov 2009, DominickVila wrote:
Ref 82, GH1618
"... What is really disingenous is pretending that the invasion of Afghanistan is a "NATO action". NATO joined us in Afghanistan when our self-prescribed war President gave the world the ultimatum "you are either with us or you are against us". ...
________
94. At 10:56pm on 02 Nov 2009, GH1618 wrote:
"Here is Article 5 of The North Atlantic Treaty in its entirety:
"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, ...."
___________
I have been waiting for post # 94 all day. It was bound to show up eventually.
DV or St. D., what people tend to forget is that the NATO effort in Afghanistan really isn't disingenuous, at least not for everybody.
We had more of our citizens killed (roughly 120) in the attacks on September 11, 2001 than in any other terrorist incident with the exception of the Air India bombings. We weren't alone in that. There were lots of Britons killed, Australians, Germans, Italians, Spaniards, even, dare I say it, some French.
If no Americans had been killed at all, those attacks would still have provided causus belli to at least a dozen different nations, in their own right, to make war on any nation that chose to harbour the people responsible. We were not arm-twisted into going to Afghanistan. At the time there was broad public support for the deployment. (There isn't any more, of course).
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96 Matt.
That was a good post.
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70. At 4:31pm on 02 Nov 2009, GH1618 wrote:
The legitimacy of the government of Afghanistan would be more important if our mission were to restore legitimate government, but it is not. Our mission is to take down al Qaeda; the government is only important in so far as it helps or hinders us in our primary mission. As long as we are making progress against our enemies, we must take the government presented, and do the best we can to work with it.
________
This is another posting that I had been expecting, too.
We did not go to Afghanistan to engage in "Nation Building", per se, true enough. But we are certainly stuck with the problem now.
Long before "Catch 22" there was a children's song "There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza." Our efforts in Afghanistan are a lot like that song.
Each problem leads the the next problem, and if we could just solve that problem, or get over the top of the next hill, or somehow round the next corner, then we could solve the previous problem, which would permit us to solve the problem before that, and so on, back to the beginning. But the whole thing turns out to be circular.
So to chase after Bin Laden we have to beat back the Taliban.
But to keep out the Taliban we have to eliminate their bases in Pakistan and win the hearts and minds of the Afghan People;
But to eliminate their bases in Pakistan we have to get the Pakistani army to co-operate;
But to get the Pakistani army to co-operate we need to get the Pakistani ISI to stop supporting the Taliban and stop providing them with intelligence;
And to stop the ISI from doing that we have to get the military high command to rein them in;
And to get the high command to do that, we have to support a military dictator whose popularity is plummeting;
And to get around that we have to make friends with other political parties in Pakistan;
And to make that work we have to provide sweeteners;
And meanwhile,
And all the time to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan people we have to stop the Afghan government from preying on the Afghan people;
which means stopping the Afghan Police from extorting bribes
which means ensuring non-corrupt civilian control;
which means squeezing the drug lords out of government, and providing substitute crops for the farmers;
which means squeezing out the politicians who protect the drug lords and the corrupt police;
which means holding free and fair, properly monitored elections ...
And on, and on it goes.
_________
There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza, there's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, a hole.
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It would be nice to think we could wage our own campaign to root out bin laden, while the Afghan state just tootles along paying us no heed. But it just doesn't work that way.
The problem is that we have to do a whole bunch of things at once that would be difficult enough if taken alone.
The people we want to capture can move across the Afghan-Pakistan border at any time, with ease. So we need to do two things simultaneously:
(1) Make sure there is no safe haven in Afghanistan; and
(2) Make sure there is no safe haven in Pakistan.
Since we do not have anywhere near enough troops to control Afghanistan as an army of occupation, to achieve (1) we have to be able to stiffle the Taliban. To do that we need the help and goodwill of the Afghan government and Afghans generally.
But the Afghan government preys upon its won citizens, or turns a blind eye to, for example, local governors who look at their positions of political power as a wealth farming opportunity as opposed to public service. But, of course, that turns the local population against them, and against anyone who supports them, such as the NATO forces now in the country. So now we are complicit in mis-rule, and that misrule makes our chances of making any effort at our original job difficult if not impossible.
Well, one persistent problem, reputedly the Taliban's greatest single source of revenue, it the drug trade (which the Taliban suppressed ruthlessly while they were in power). So we try crop eradication.
Except that the local economy is built on drug money. So we further impoverish the local farmers (that's got to make us really popular) and make implacable enemies of the drug lords and their local political place-holders.
The one way to deal with corruption is to hold free and fair elections, so the voters can throw the crooks out. But our efforts in that direction are stymied as well.
So here we are, eight years later, no further ahead (arguably losing ground, actually) in achieving the original purpose of our mission, and embroiled in local politics at every level.
So the idea that we can pursue our goals, whatever the stripe of the local government, does not seem to be a realistic prospect.
... And now let's consider the problems with trying to get anything done in (or by) our nominal ally Pakistan ...
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This poll was done in Pakistan in July this year
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/08/2009888238994769.html#threat
Question: Some people believe that the (Pakistani) Taliban are the greatest threat to the country, some believe India is the greatest threat, whereas some believe US is the greatest threat. Who do you think is the greatest threat for Pakistan?
(Pakistani) Taliban 11%
India 18%
US 59%
Don't Know 12%
Question: Some people favour the military operation by the government against the Taliban, while some oppose. What is your view?
Favour 41%
Oppose 24%
Neutral 22%
Don't Know 13%
Question: Do you favour or oppose drone attacks by the United States against Taliban and al-Qaeda targets in Pakistan?
Favour 9%
Oppose 67%
Neutral 24%
Question: Some people believe Asif Zardari is a good leader for Pakistan, while others believe he is a bad leader. In your view, is his leadership good or bad for Pakistan?
Good 11%
Bad 42%
Neither good nor bad / Does not matter 34%
Don't Know 13%
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The problem is not insoluble, but it is exceptionally difficult.
We cannot muster the military forces required to achieve our goals by force of arms without the co-operation of the Afghan government and the government of Pakistan.
We cannot trust the Karzai government, and we will never be able to trust it. Why am I so certain of this? Because if we don't have enough leverage to get co-operation when the whole world is watching the Afghan elections, how can we possibly think we are going to do any better when the world press corps isn't watching?
Think of how much international pressure was applied to get the government of Afghanistan to accept the need for fair vote counting and a run-off vote; and see how easily the promise to accede to a run off vote was evaded - even with the whole world watching.
We probably can deal with the Tajiks, and anybody who was ever a follower of Ahmad Shah Mahsood, and there is some prospect of defending and holding a base in the Panshir valley.
The government of Pakistan seems, at long last, to have awakened to the dangers it faces along the Afghan border west of Peshawar, so maybe some progress can be made there. But it still seems in no hurry to shut down the Taliban in Baluchistan, or to exert central control in, for example, Quetta in particular.
India, Russia and China all have long term interests in Afghanistan. We do not. Perhaps those long term interests may provide an opportunity.
So at the same time as we are juggling a difficult relationship with Pakistan (where we can't really be sure who can be trusted), we need to be juggling a relationship with India, an uncertain relationship with Russia, and a relationship with a rival power, China.
And, on the far side, there is the need at some level to obtain at least the acquiescence of Iran, with whom we have had so much success in our diplomatic efforts since 1980 ...
Problems at every turn, at every step of the way.
And just how much money and effort does this problem merit as compared to the other problems facing the West in general and America in particular?
How many people still think this is worth the effort?
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Once in a while there is a little humor ..even when things are very dark...There is one Jew living in all of Afghanistan...and there is a story at wikipedia about his choices...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zablon_Simintov
"Zablon Simintov (b. 1959, Turkmenistan) is a Turkmen-Afghan carpet trader and the caretaker of the only synagogue in Kabul. As of 2008, he is believed to be the sole remaining Jewish person in Afghanistan."
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Matt;
America will continue to lose wars as long as it is worried about civilian casualties, its own casualties, and how the press will spin America's image around the world. Had we worried about those things in 1941 we would have lost WWII too. With minor exceptions like Kosovo and Granada, we haven't won a war since.
We already know what the score is. Iraq taught us who are real friends aren't. Instead of trying to patch things up with people we've risked nuclear war to defend in the past but who showed they would betray us at the first possible moment, we should dole out a punishment from which they won't recover for a very long time. A complete trade embargo against all imports from "Olde Europe" say for about ten years would have given them something to think about I'd bet.
BienvenueenLouisiana
Give Louisiana back to the French? Not until we figure out how to give Manhattan back to the Indians. The price they demand for taking it back is far too high even for our government and besides they claim it wasn't theirs to give away in the first place. I guess we're stuck with it just the way we're stuck with Louisiana. We'll just have to make the best of both of them. We won't have to give back California or Texas to Mexico. They're preparing to take it themselves. They even tell their invaders how to survive here undetected until the moment they are so numerous, they can safely demand a vote to secede from the USA.
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I've just signed on so I don't know what has been said before. Addressing Mr. Mardell's topic, it would seem that America is once again trying to rig an election, but this time it is not working out too well. If the Afghans were really alllowed to vote their preference, it would likely be a Taliban leader.
But the Taliban are no longer our friends. What to do....
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lostallyourmarbles;
"But the Taliban are no longer our friends. What to do...."
Why don't you go over there, seek them out and talk to them yourself using your extraordinary powers of persuasian....(or do you think you'd wind up like Daniel Pearl?) BTW, don't forget to take your Burkha with you. They don't like seeing women who don't look like gnomes. Speaking of gnomes, what do you suppose ever happened to your comrade in arms, the Princess of the Pee? Do you think she opened her mouth once too often in Tehran and wound up in one of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's prisons, beaten, tortured, raped, or killed? We haven't heard one word from her since the riots, demonstrations, and killings there. I guess the international "community" wasn't pleading her case the way they did for that Iranian American woman who was there and got herself into prison with an eight year jail sentence. Funny that woman doesn't seem to talk in the media much about Iran anymore. Those two women who were in prison for illegally sneaking into North Korea don't say much anymore either.
Here's one for ya sb I got from a Cuban ex-pat who fled Castro's Cuba;
"Q: What's the definition of a married man?
A: A man with a lot of little mouths to feed and one big mouth to listen to."
I guess marriage is the same the world over under any system. I wonder if al Qaeda, Taleban, Iranian, Saudi, or Sicilian men have the same problems with their wives.
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A poll of people in Afghanistan Feb 2 2009
The quotes are out of order..so you should probably read the article if it interests you
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2009/02_february/09/afghanistan.shtml
Hostility to the Taleban remains very strong throughout the country, with only 4% wanting them back, 58% saying the Taleban are the biggest danger to Afghanistan, 90% saying they are opposed to the Taleban and 84% saying that the Taleban are weak or non-existent in their own areas.
Only 8% think the Taleban will win their battle to return to power, and 71% say there should be no negotiations with them unless they stop the fighting.
........
Forty-seven per cent have a favourable opinion of the United States as a whole – down from 83% in 2005 and 65% in 2007. And only 38% have a favourable view of Britain – a fall from 49% a year ago.
..........
There's an increase in the number of people who think attacks on foreign forces can be justified – 25% say they can and 64% say they can't; in 2007 these figures were 17% and 74%.
..
Sixty-three per cent support the presence of US forces – down from 71% in 2007 and 78% in 2006.
.........
When asked if things in Afghanistan were heading in the right direction, only 40% agreed – compared with 54% a year ago, and 77% in 2005.
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109. Marbles.
Glad you are here.
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111, bepa.
Your figures are interesting, but there are questions. Who where the pollsters and who were the people they polled? In which language were the questions asked? Woud it suprise you terribly if I told you that some intelligence agencies get their information from foreigners who can speak English? You might ask what does it matter. It matters. And why would anyone expect the Afghans to speak the truth. Middle Easterners often tell people what they want to hear. Their culture is not American. And, we are invaders in Afghanistan. Do you think the Afghans (those without a vested interest) care a fig if an American gets killed?
Hello Interestedforeigner.
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106, Interestedforeigner.
Obama is finally understanding what the world has always known - no one can conquer Afghanistan. Installing an effective puppet government is conquest. This is not like Iraq where people meekly voted form our pre-approved list of candidates. I suspect Obama would love to get out of Afghanistan but can't find a good excuse. As for wiping out Al Qaida - puleeze. Hatred for America is widespread and bin Laden is only its spokesman. Chop off his head and two more grow in its place. In fact, if he were killed he would become a martyr to the cause and I hate to think what would happen next.
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#113 All my marbles
"The poll was commissioned by the BBC, ABC News and ARD of Germany.
It was conducted by the US pollsters D3 Systems. The fieldwork was carried out by the Afghan Centre for Socio-Economic and Opinion Research in Kabul.
Face-to-face interviews were carried out with 1,534 Afghans in all of the country's 34 provinces between 30 December 2008 and 12 January 2009. The margin of error is + or – 2.5%.
This is the fourth such BBC/ABC/ARD poll in the country, following the first news-sponsored survey ever conducted in Afghanistan at the end of 2005, a second at the end of 2006 and another at the end of 2007."
..........
It may be a better indicator of what the Afghani people think than the election was...
Yes I think some people in Afghanistan do not want people killed...whatever their nationality...
Yes it is very important to speak the languages of the areas
#41 I wrote
"Where are the US schools teaching the languages of Afghanistan and Pakistan?"
"What has been done to reach out to the people of these nations?"
because I think the solution is engagement and not war. Troops can be used to maintain order but any killing will only make the situation worse.
and it is very upsetting that almost no one considers anything besides whether to use more troops or not. What other solutions are being discussed? none that I see...
maybe you and I will agree that the women in Afghanistan need some help?
this article might interest you;
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jsXjwwXo-ChThgRtKWG-5sAB7NUQD9BLIM3G0
As long as we let men dominate our policies we will continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. They will almost always chose to dominate and many of them will want war.
La guerre! C’est une chose trop grave pour la confier à des militaires.
War is too serious a matter to entrust to military men.
Georges Clemenceau
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The feudal system practiced by the various tribal groupings that is Afganistan and parts of the countries surrounding them precludes free thought for most people.Democracy is an anathema.The percentage of the population that has a grip on the realities of the outside world is small.A generation of peace,education and universal sufferage to free woman of taboo's and restrictions is required to bring this country out of the dark ages.Non of these things are the fault of the US or NATO, all of it is self imposed.Armies can achieve little, but protection for some in a population that only looks inward.The armies would achieve more by retiring to the borders and sealing them.Aerial spraying all poppy crops as they appear, they will soon learn to grow food.Tell them they are on their own, sort it out yourself, it's your country. Tell them they get no aid until peace covers the land.Methink's all those with their hands in the till will try to leave, do not let them.Change will come very quickly for better or worse "not our problem" This is the quick solution the other way will take fifty years. Gettinggrumpier
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115, bepa.
I believe we should not be in Afghanistan at all. We do no ask the Afghans to solve our problems - and we have more than enough to go around - and they surely do not ask us to solve theirs. But lets talk straight. Our presence in Afthanistan has nothing to do with altruism (just as it didn't in Iraq). We are exercising a modern-day colonialism.
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The bottom line financially for the Taliban in Afghanistan is the profit from the drugs trade. Could we not simply pay the farmers ourselves either to grow something else (at comparable rates) or else simply take all the opium we buy and destroy it.
Both the USA and Europe heavily subsidise their farming industries. It must be cheaper than a war to do the same in Afghanistan.
Then, as several people have suggested, let's open the international schools to teach people and bring them more gently into the modern world, without ramming our western systems down their throats.
Education is always the key. And Afghnaistan cannot be expected to catch up in a few years what the west took centuries to master.
Bepa - the poll of Afghanistan (111) is interesting ... but to be honest not surprising.
Most people in bad situations are just trying to get by, and don't really have a broad geopolitical outlook. They may appear to hate America, but all we are seeing is the extreme fringe, as in any media portrayal of events. Every time we see an anti-western rally on TV burning US flags it is just as choreographed as any march or demo in the West. Where did they get the flag from if they're just peasants? But for a few bucks (or Afghanis or whatever) in the pocket you'd go out and burn the flag the instigator gave you too.
With the IRA in the 70s and 80s, the active members were few, but the broad support seemed high - but if you live on the estate you'd be broadly supportive too, as it's easier to get along with your life that way.
Educate them, don't bomb them...... and allow them to keep their true culture - like Americans and Europeans, they are proud of their culture.
Bepa - however the poll of Pakistan (105) is much more worrying.
As a supposed friend of the west, the responses seem rather frightening. Pakistan is radicalising very quickly and much of the general population seems to be turning against the west.
Granted they have more expensive media coverage, so it is easier for people to be fed the selective "out of context" images to create these feelings ..... but then again how many bombed (by accident) weddings or marketplaces would it take in Oregon before the US population screamed for vengeance?
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93. _marko wrote:
"To MAII #57
Hpw do you distinguish between "pre-emptive self defense" and attack? "
Oh, that's an easy one.....
When they do it - they are attacking
When we do it - it's pre-empt...... well, you get the picture.
Welcome to Marcus-world - it's only black or white, no shades of grey. Still, it must keep life simple.
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Marcus – A history lesson for you, oh lover of free speech, Germany is, under the terms of the surrender signed after the end of WWII (you know the last war where apparently the US army did not care about civilian deaths) is not meant to send soldiers across its borders. It was the reason that when Germany sent soldiers to aid in the Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian conflict there were a number of people upset, especially since Serbia was a German ally in WWII. A similar limitation is placed upon Japan, which is not really meant to have an army at all. I hope you don’t find this history too challenging since you seem to get most of your history from Hollywood.
Others – If the Afghan war was simply to take down Al Qaeda and punish the Taliban, which I believe it was, then it is a failure. Al Qaeda ‘inspired’ the 2004 attacks in Madrid (killing 191) and the 2005 attacks in London (killing 56), as many terrorist experts (including those in the CIA, who had partially trained many of the leading lights) predicted the Afghan invasion did not destroy Al Qaeda, nor stop its ability to attack globally, though its power was disrupted and actions curtailed. The Taliban may have been removed from power in Afghanistan but they still remain a major force in the country, as well as Pakistan, those tribes we have allied with have many similar views, including their attitude to women. As soon as the US/UK/NATO leaves the country will slide back into civil war, just like it did after the Soviet withdrawal, probably with the Taliban or something very similar gaining dominance.
It is not a matter of US versus European ideology in regards with what to do in Afghanistan, it is those countries that listened to the experts who said that this was going to be a long, bloody and probably futile struggle and decided to limit their involvement in what was an ill thought out enterprise. Due to 9/11 the US had to be involved, but if the attacks had happened elsewhere, the same voices bemoaning the lack of French and German participation would have been saying that this conflict was not in America’s interests.
Sorry but I still find it kind of sad that some American’s have such an inferiority complex when it comes to the opinions of Europeans. It is almost as sad that there are Europeans who feel so envious of America it so clouds their views. I quite like Americans, some parts of America look fantastic, regrettably though unless its for business I am never likely to go there (I object to giving my own country my biometric information, I see no reason to give it freely to another country). I don’t however like every aspect of American life, especially its foreign policy and the way that its culture has insinuated into everyone else’s. Now I also hate British foreign policy and accept that Britain culture is well and truly under the thumb of American corporations, it just it would be nice to go to another country and not see a McD and/or Starbucks (though I really like Starbucks). My criticism of certain aspects of America, is just that criticism of certain aspects not the nation as a whole and definitely not an indication of how I view the population of the country.
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Ref 104, IF
"The people we want to capture can move across the Afghan-Pakistan border at any time, with ease. So we need to do two things simultaneously:
(1) Make sure there is no safe haven in Afghanistan; and
(2) Make sure there is no safe haven in Pakistan."
In my opinion, we could have accomplished our goals in Afghanistan by destroying the Al Qaeda training camps in that country and focusing strictly on Al Qaeda. We lost the support of the Afghan people when we decided to remove the Taliban from power and engaged in a full blow military operation designed to implement a centralized government system based on a Western model and inspired by Western ideology. It will not work.
Instead of focusing on Al Qaeda - and even the Taliban after we removed them from power - we took our eyes off the ball and engaged in a ridiculous crusade in Iraq that allowed those that attacked us - Al Qaeda - to regroup, act with impunity, and earn the sympathies and support of tens of thousands of Islamic fundamentalists.
Al Qaeda does not need Afghanistan to train its members, they can do in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan and many other countries. Most importantly, we were not attacked by people trained in low level camps where terrorists learn how to shoot or build IEDs, we were attacked by educated fanatics that learned how to fly at Embry Riddle University in Florida.
Slash and burn may produce short term gains, but it doesn't win a war and much less the minds of the people that are determined to expel us from their homelands and inflict pain on those intent on changing their way of life.
We need to determine and address the root cause of the hatred towards us, bombs and indefinite occupations of developing nations will not do the trick. Unfortunately, part of the solution involves ending our military presence in Islamic countries, and instead of doing that we have increased it and plan to increase it even more.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8339369.stm
What a farce.
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DMu;
"It was the reason that when Germany sent soldiers to aid in the Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian conflict there were a number of people upset, especially since Serbia was a German ally in WWII."
Yes I can see why some Germans would be upset that their soldiers were sent to fight against their former ally. I'm sure there were still sympathies for the Serbs. The genocide agaisnt all non-Serbians living in what was intended to become the "Greater Serbia" must have brought back memories of "the good old days." One of the worst things that every happened to West Germans was getting their wish to reunite with East Germany come true. Not only was East Germany a lead ball and chain economically for them, it was and remains as socially as Neanderthal as it was at the end of WWII. There was no progress at returning to the civilized world whatsoever when it was under Soviet occupation. Perhaps it really is better that we don't put any dangerous military weapons in such people's hands after all. It might frighten half of Europe if we did. You know yourselves best, if you say you are not to be trusted, I'll accept that.
"Sorry but I still find it kind of sad that some American’s have such an inferiority complex when it comes to the opinions of Europeans."
Yes I'm sorry to say that I have instinctively come to accept that European opinions will inevitably be inferior to American opinions even before I hear them. That's what happens when you hear the same jibberish from those in the same group of people over and over again for a lifetime. You come to know what to expect even before you hear it. I'm never surprised anymore sadly enough. Despite the countless wars fought in Europe, at least one major war every generation on European soil for over a thousand years until the US came to put an end to it as the dominant European military power occupying that area for several generations to impose a pax Americana, they have never fought for their freedom either to win it or defend it. They fought for their despots' empires, religions, their survival at times in the case of Britain in WWII for example but never actually for their freedom. They don't know what it means to lose it because they've had so little of it and for such a short time. They've come to rely on the US to defend what they have of it, it never occurs to them that they will actually have to fight to defend it one day for themselves. But the US can't stick around forever and it WILL become their responsibility, their decision to defend it or lose it one day. Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran are much closer to Europe than they are to the US and Europe is a far softer target for them. Madrid was just a first taste of what Islamic terrorists plan for all of Europe. Watch what happens in Kabul, Islamabad, Lahore, and Bagdad today. That is what they intend for London, Paris, Berlin, and Rome tomorrow.
"I am never likely to go there [America]."
You won't find me losing any sleep over that, rest assured.
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Another classic from the MAII school of tact, diplomacy, compassion and good breeding:
110. At 04:44am on 03 Nov 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
... Speaking of gnomes, what do you suppose ever happened to your comrade in arms, the Princess of the Pee? Do you think she opened her mouth once too often in Tehran and wound up in one of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's prisons, beaten, tortured, raped, or killed? We haven't heard one word from her since the riots, demonstrations, and killings there. I guess the international "community" wasn't pleading her case the way they did for that Iranian American woman who was there and got herself into prison with an eight year jail sentence. Funny that woman doesn't seem to talk in the media much about Iran anymore. ...
_________
Must you be so bloody callous?
In the West, we take Freedom of Speech for granted. There is an uncomfortably real chance that either she or her family members have indeed been subject to unknown punishments because of her postings here. Marbles thinks I'm being alarmist about this, but the fact is we haven't heard from the Princess since June 25.
____________
For those not familiar with this story, the Princessinthepea is a young, well educated Iranian woman from what we have guessed is a fairly well-to -do family. She was a regular poster on this (i.e., formerly Justin Webb's America) blog. She posted from inside Iran. Her voice here appears to have been silenced.
Her last post on this (i.e. the Justin Webb) blog was on the "Obama's Iran Dilemma" string:
510. At 11:59pm on 25 Jun 2009, le-petit-pois wrote:
"Hello all"
"T'is I princess - this is my outside of Iran moniker. I have just arrived from Tehran to Europe. Unfortunatly for the past few weeks I have been unable to acccess the BBC site to comment on these pages. The past few weeks, both the run up to the election and the days following have been incredible. Having lived through the revolution 30 years ago I somehow never thought I would go through something as tumultous as this at this point. Having said that, I have been convinced for a long time that Iran would right itself within my lifetime."
"I voted for Moussavi in the election. There is no question in my mind that the vote was rigged. I have so many first hand accounts of people's experiences of the ploys used. I think in the first instance the plan was simply to ensure the majority in favour of Ahmadinejad. When the whole election was unraveling in favour of Moussavi I think they panicked and made the biggest mistake of making the win margins as large as they did. If it had been a win of a few percent I think people would have taken it, but the margins given were simply offensive."
"There are endless stories of the cheating that I could give you but let me summarise and say that it is right across the board."
"In the days following, the rallies and marches have been amazing. I have been on the streets a few days and despite what you may read, it is a huge cross section of society and not just the priviledged in Tehran. Last thursday there were Mullah's, labourer's, students, housewives and every other section of Iranian that you can think of. It was an incredibly moving experince."
"These past weeks have totally restored my faith in my country and its people (and frankly I wasn't even jaded before). The patriotism and passion shown has been incredible. I wish I could translate the incredible slogan/rhymns that are being shouted - sadly they simply do not translate, but they are beautiful and moving. These days have restored a great deal of our honour in the world with the diginity of the marches. I never gave my countrymen credit for the sort of discipline that they have shown. On the dot of 10pm the cries of Allah o Akbar are shouted from the roof tops untill precisely 10.30 when it stops. They get louder day but day."
"I don't know how this will end but I do know that the genie is out of the bottle and that our youth have got a bit in their mouths that they are not goung to let go of any time soon."
"I pray that it ends well."
___________
And I pray that you and your family are safe and sound.
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121. At 11:58am on 03 Nov 2009, DominickVila wrote:
"In my opinion, we could have accomplished our goals in Afghanistan by destroying the Al Qaeda training camps in that country and focusing strictly on Al Qaeda. We lost the support of the Afghan people when we decided to remove the Taliban from power and engaged in a full blown military operation designed to implement a centralized government system based on a Western model and inspired by Western ideology. It will not work."
_________
Not sure about this.
The Taliban were (and probably still are) brutal, religiously intolerant thugs. Remeber the beheadings at the soccer stadium? It was a horrifying religious police state, Felix-Dzerzhinski-with-a-Koran, so to speak, where there was neither freedom nor justice. Women's rights? Not so much.
At the time there was widespread, almost universal joy in Afghanistan at their downfall.
There was the big national Loya Jurga (spelling might be wrong) a traditional council intended to usher in a new era of Afghans governing themselves, with fairness and justice.
But liberation turns to occupation very quickly when the "liberators" wear out their welcome, nobody puts away their guns, and the new government lets its place-holders engage in endless petty shakedowns of the populace.
And now, as people forget a little about the harshness of the Taliban regime, the picture changes.
Is it somehow analogous to Russian nostalgia for Stalin?
We are paying a very steep price for the six year detour into Iraq.
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unInterestingForeigner;
"Another classic from the MAII school of tact, diplomacy, compassion and good breeding"
What do you think I am, a Canadian? I don't use "niceness" as a weapon although I will admit it can be as effective as any by being cloyingly repugnant to the point of making its victims wish they were dead. Don't forget I come from a nation whose ancestors were considered mongrels and scoundrels in the countries they came from. That's my breeding. Being surrounded by others of my ilk only intensifies my natural proclivities. It seems to me that the British have been less likely to wear that thin veneer of aloofness that keeps people at arms length themselves lately. It's a trait reminiscent of the Japanese culture. Is that because they are island nations and creating space between themselves and others is part of a national psychology since you can only be pushed so far until your back is to the sea? Well that seems to have disappeared in Britain, especially according to many from the UK including Justin Webb who say that around 2AM when the pubs close and the patrons have all guzzled as much as they can get down before the clock ran out they are in all their glory.
"Must you be so bloody callous?"
Oooooh, he used the word "bloody." That can only mean one thing. THE BRITISH ARE COMING! THE BRITISH ARE COMING! And here you tried to trick me into thinking you were just a Canadian. Cheerio, hip hip, and all that rot. Do British people actually speak that way? Did they ever or was that just in the movies. I always think of the actor Nigel Bruce as Sherlock Holmes' foil when I think of Brits. Or David Niven who always had an expression on his face like he'd just smelled something bad.
Speaking of things that smell bad IF, are you less enamored with Islamic Democracy now than you were six months ago? What's another name for Islamic Democracy, Islamo-fascism? A wolf in wolf's clothing. Talk about mass delusions. Well it's possible we'll never hear from la principessa again. Too bad. She often reminded me how dangerous it can be to run off at the mouth when it's a habit and becomes second nature. If you recall, I did warn her about it. I wonder if she was smart enough to listen.
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125 True FD the talliban were not popular after the withdrawal of russian forces.
They did however provide some stability and policing from the bandits that had taken advantage of the Vacuum left by russia and americans( they were there and providing "assistance the whole time right so they left as well as the russians) . europe was talking about trying to do something about the situation before 9/11. america said stuff it we don't need to help them now as long as the opium still goes to russia.
(and some wonder why there may be some resentment of america in russia, what with the HUGE number of addicts there thanks ,in part, to our efforts.
The talliban may have been murderous thugs, ( they kill so they are thugs, I'd agree)but when the thugs with rules are easier to deal with than the ones that have none.
Despite what we say IF one wanted to obey the interpretation of Islam their way they were probably able to survive. But if as was the case there are war lords everywhere with other Ideas and rules not apparent then there could be total Chaos.
The Some of War lords fighting was curtailed by the talliban.
That was a measure of security not achieved before.(not a nice security or one I wanted to visit but just that little bit safer.
No different from how the american people accept GW evil times just to feel a Little bit safer.
then 9/11 happened.
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Marcus – Well most of the people who we worried were those people outside Germany who remembered WWII and were unsettled by the image of German tanks rolling over European soil. Obviously these fears were unfounded, but it was the spectre of history raising its head again. Not sure the relevance of the German reunification to this, surely you as a good right wing aligned Capitalist would have been happy to see the doom of European Communism?
Yes I suppose the gibberish (no such word as jibberish, oh the irony) coming from Europeans over the centuries must be a pain, I mean how has Newton, Galileo, Aristotle, Plato, Freud, Jung, Einstein, Nietzsche, Pain, Shakespeare, Pasteur, Dickens, Churchill etc done anything to help the world?
Also surprisingly enough a continent that has history going back millennia has had a number of wars, the shock and horror of it. I am guessing if we were able to chronicle the history of what became the USA we would note a number of conflicts, few if any were fought on the basis liberty and freedom. As for Europeans never fighting for freedom, do the words ‘Liberty, Fraternity and Equality’ not mean anything to you? It resulted in the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen which states “Man of all countries are brother, him who oppress on one nation declares itself enemy of all”. I know that it had an effect on a certain American diplomat of the time.
I am right in assuming that you believe that America is now and will remain the dominant European military power, I apologise but the relevant sentence is garbled. You do see the glaring issue with this don’t you? If you accept that America is the dominant military power in Europe, which I don’t, it cannot be a European military power, because it is not in Europe. It could be argued that Soviet Russia was the dominant European military power, Russia being a European country and it having the second most powerful military in the world.
I think the chances that Afghanistan, rather than possibly terrorist groups within that country, is going to offer Europe a series military threat is a bit far fetched. To be fair it was the much harder target these terrorist chose first, the later attacks were more to do with European support of America than our inherent softness (ignoring of course our bloody and warlike history, which you noted with such glee).
As for American’s not losing sleep over my not visiting their country, well why would they? Sorry did I give the impression that the US was losing out somehow by my absence? I thought I made it clear that the reason I would not travel there is solely down to having to give over personal details I don’t believe any state (country) has a right to. Actually I would quite like to visit Charleston, possible New Orleans, partly because I like the accents. I am sure, however, that the US can cope without my radiant personality!
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It's hard to understand what people expect to happen in Afghanistan insofar as its government is concerned. These people live in the stone age. Getting them to understand and adopt concepts of democracy as we understand it is like trying to train a caveman to become a NASA astronaut. It can't happen. Besides, didn't they pick their leaders with a meeting of the Loyal Jerks or something? Isn't that according to their rules, their understanding of how they should be governed? Why do we expect them to suddenly follow the Marquis of Queensbury rules when they have existed in caves isolated from civilization all these centuries?
The enemy has a stone age mentality with access to 20th century weapons and 21st century communications and information technology. If we try to engage them on terms we are familiar with fighting 20th century adversaries we will lose. We must confront them using tactics geared to exploit the extreme weakness inherent in their situation without regard for any other consequneces. To say that if we kill them or inflict unintended casualties we will only generate more of them is a prescription for defeat. There is only one way to win a war in any century, find the enemy and kill him faster and more effectively than he finds and kills you. And don't worry about public opinion, that only loses wars by exploiting our political weakness. Better to keep all reporters out of the combat areas the way Pakistan does. If we don't do this, once they get their hands on 21st century weapons, we'll be doomed.
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124 IF I will add to your wishes for the princessinthep
88 Gherkin.
I'm with you on this one.
Infidels is not acceptable to me. but then I find Gentile offensive, and heathen.
Funny you should mention these exclusionary terms.
I agree they are all terms that should be considered out dated and racist.
77
gherkin.
You are wrong there.
Let me explain again.
If GW record was looked at most could see american law as a murderous system of revenge killings by the state. Overseen by half-wits
Often totally innocent people being killed.
Just as if you look at the judges (or whatever they are called) in the sharia courts nad take the most extreme cases from their courts you would see a murderous revenge killings by the state, overseen by half-wits.
often totally innocent people being killed.
But I suppose you can see a difference there.
96 MATT
"What would you have done if a bunch of guys crashed airliners into the two tallest buildings in London? "
wiki" Ireland troubles"
"In 1972 alone, the IRA killed 100 British soldiers and wounded 500 more. In the same year, they carried out 1,300 explosions and 90 IRA members were killed"
"The most devastating example of the Provisionals' commercial bombing campaign was Bloody Friday in July 1972 in Belfast city centre, where 22 bombs exploded killing nine people and injuring 130."
" The highest military death toll from an IRA attack came on 27 August 1979, with the Warrenpoint ambush in County Down, when 18 British soldiers from the Parachute Regiment were killed by two culvert bombs placed by the Provisional IRA South Armagh Brigade. On the same day the IRA killed one of their most famous victims, the uncle of Prince Philip, Lord Louis Mountbatten, assassinated along with two teenagers (aged 14 and 15) and The Dowager Baroness Brabourne in County Sligo, by a bomb placed in his boat"
"In 1982, they exploded two bombs at a British Army ceremonial parade at Hyde Park and Regents Park in London, killing 11 soldiers and wounding 50 soldiers and civilians (see Hyde Park and Regents Park bombings)."
In 1984, in the Brighton hotel bombing, the IRA tried to assassinate British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet. She survived, but five people including Sir Anthony Berry, a Conservative Party Member of Parliament, Eric Taylor, the north-west party chairman and three wives of party officials were killed. Several others including Margaret Tebbit, wife of Norman Tebbit, were left permanently disabled"
" a car bombing that occurred at Harrods department store in London on 17 December 1983. "
Notice the date. Christmas rush was on.
There were many others that died in the conflict.
It is not ONE big attack. One big one. but the threat was ALWAYS there.
yet Dublin remains.
So don't make history up dude.
MATT you are deeply wrong on this one.
IF on broad public support .
Is that not the time our leaders should have looked and seen that Afghanistan was a broken country in need of aid not bombs.
tried to make friends with them?
No, we enforced our drug laws more and ignored the people and then invaded.
We used excuses like" they said they would kill us if we invades" to justify invading( well the pat robertson show (christian broadcast network was;)
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" Chop off his head and two more grow in its place. In fact, if he were killed he would become a martyr to the cause and I hate to think what would happen next."
Marbles well said
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"Here's one for ya sb I got from a Cuban ex-pat who fled Castro's Cuba;
"Q: What's the definition of a married man?
A: A man with a lot of little mouths to feed and one big mouth to listen to.""
MArseus mucus.
Your baiting the princess and enjoying the possibility of her death is sickening. But expected from the slime-ball you are.
Your misogynistic jokes, you revelation that a woman had reamed you for money and left you(back before the election,, never did find out how much you paid her to be there.) tey all show the other side of your problem.
Really dude you should try therapy.
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"Here's one for ya sb I got from a Cuban ex-pat who fled Castro's Cuba;
"Q: What's the definition of a married man?
A: A man with a lot of little mouths to feed and one big mouth to listen to.""
If that's your own family that you're talking about, Monsieur Aurelius, we all know whose big mouth the man has to listen to.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's been said that even a fool appears wise when he shuts his mouth.
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DMu;
"Not sure the relevance of the German reunification to this, surely you as a good right wing aligned Capitalist would have been happy to see the doom of European Communism?"
At the risk of repeating myself, the incorporation of East Germans who were substantively not much different from the people who populated the third Reich, who had not come all that distance from their dark past that West Germans had, gives other Europeans reason to think back at the history of WWII. Given the opportunity to resume the fight with any chance of having an impact, I think many of those in East Germany itself would not dismiss it out of hand. For them it is still 1946 in their minds.
I don't really care what happens in other countries as long as it is not a threat to me. If Eastern European countries chose to remain Soviet Socialist republics, why should I care? If that's what they think is in their interest or those are the people who assume control, what difference should it make to me? The reason the US left Afghanistan after they kicked the USSR out was that their purpose had been served and nobody ever thought they'd become a military threat even indirectly to America.
"Also surprisingly enough a continent that has history going back millennia has had a number of wars, the shock and horror of it."
You have a gift for understatement. A history of Europe could be largely reduced to a recitation of wars, dates fought, and the outcomes. The rest are trivial details.
"As for Europeans never fighting for freedom, do the words ‘Liberty, Fraternity and Equality’ not mean anything to you? It resulted in the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen which states “Man of all countries are brother,..."
Those were just words on paper. Actually in the real world it resulted in Napoleon. Case closed.
"...I mean how has Newton, Galileo, Aristotle, Plato, Freud, Jung, Einstein, Nietzsche, Pain, Shakespeare, Pasteur, Dickens, Churchill etc done anything to help the world?"
What does that havd to do with the price of tea in China? We were talking about European's views of foreign policies. Focus!
"I am right in assuming that you believe that America is now and will remain the dominant European military power"
That statement has what is called in English "poetic license." America is not a European country so it cannot be a European military power. What it means is that America is the strongest military power in Europe. Personally I would like to see that come to an end as quickly as possible. With the fall of the Nazi threat and of the Soviet threat, I see no justification for a continued US presence in Europe, nor does being in NATO serve American interests any longer. If we need forward military bases, they are probably best located in Central Asia, not in Europe. The American military presence in Europe has kept Europeans from having at each others throats as they habitually acted for the last three generations. But it is like trying to hold back the sea. I see no point in the expensive effort to stop it. That is what proponents of the EU say it is supposed to do by ending the individual nation states and individual national identities replacing it with one pan European one. Will it work? Personally I doubt it but frankly I couldn't care less one way or the other. It merely provides a source of diversionary amusement to watch it.
"I think the chances that Afghanistan, rather than possibly terrorist groups within that country, is going to offer Europe a series military threat is a bit far fetched"
That's what we thought too, at least it was the popular wisdom. Experts knew better but were not listened to. Then 9-11 happened. Every nation that was attacked by al Qaeda thought they would not be targets. That includes Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, the US, all of them. Every one of them was wrong. That thinking just made them easier targets.
"Actually I would quite like to visit Charleston, possible New Orleans, partly because I like the accents."
Why not call the directory assistance telephone operator there and make a tape of her voice. It's a lot cheaper and easier than going there. You could call up local businesses and the municipal government offices and make tapes of their voices as well.
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fluffytale and trueconservative;
Hahahahahaha, I gather you are both unhappily married men...or have the scars of at least one divorce on your bank account. Looks like that little joke hit some still raw nerves.
Having spent a lifetime observing women, trying to understand how they think, why they act the way they do, I've come to the conclusion that for men that is an impossibility. Perhaps that's one reason I find them so fascinating, their unpredictability. There are obvious other reasons.
Sorry to disappoint you fluffster, I was never "reamed" financially or otherwise by a woman (or anyone else) but there were certainly those women who tried. Early on in my life my accountant warned me to consider which end of my torso I'd do my thinking with. That was sound advice I'm sure many men wish they'd had the benefit of early on...before they made their mistakes.
Trueconservative, if you actually were truly a conservative and lived in a way that would conserve whatever wealth you accumulated in life, you'd know the old saw about a fool and his money being soon parted. And that other famous saying; half my money I spend on booze and women, the other half I throw away.
fluffster, I do not enjoy the possibility of the poster who called herself princessonthepea being dead. Quite the opposite, I hope she is alive and well and I even hope she reappears so I can have the pleasure of telling her "I told you so." Posting idiocy on the internet is not reason enough for me to want someone dead. Not even your idiocy.
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#118 RomeStu
Yes education is the key..and we should be looking at our own history of how we developed through the Rennaisance and in the Age of Enlightenment and use that as a model of how to help them.
Sadly people who are interested in history look primarily at the wars. Imo the wars have held us back and it was in times of peace that we progressed.
Also while people are uneasy about looking at religious beliefs..much of the advance in our culture happened with the assistance of religious leaders..like Martin Luther and then his namesake Martin Luther King
I beleive that those kinds of advances ... using reason and humanism ... should occur also with the Muslim religion...which is very open to the interpretation of individual Imams
From what I have read many of the people following the Taliban have a limited understanding of the Koran and there are passages in the Koran which condemn the killing of innocent people... the Taliban should be seen as a group that is misguided and not following Muslim principles
More than 50% of the Afghanis get their news from the radio. There should be a radio station that is devoted to the Muslim religion and the reading of the Koran with religious leaders giving various interpretations from a reasoned and humanistic viewpoint. Educate the people...
The poll in Pakistan was taken before they had the mass migration of people escaping from a war caused by the Taliban. Hillary Clinton has been dealing with this very well imo.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120045832
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-clinton-pakistan1-2009nov01,0,1313175.story
People are not reading about what is happening. Too many are basing opinions on their own views and not looking at information coming out about the region and its people.
Imo this area is changing very rapidly...and we should be there...but the emphasis should be on how to change the culture and not on killing...
Cry to cyber space
Thank you Hillary Clinton...You have a tough job but keep going...
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135 lol MA. No you are wrong as usual.
your previous comments about women who just left and they are after one thing,money are what made me say what I have to you.
You further comments show that I was not far off the mark. maybe even spot on.
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#117 allmymarbles
Imo we are responsible for some of the problems now in Afghanistan..but the majority of their problems was caused by their own culture..and the way to change it is with information.
The women in Afghanistan do not have basic human rights.
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
John Donne
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PS TC
"unhappily married men"
LOL TC sorry to laugh.but I do believe that MA might have the wrong end of the stick;)
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This editorial in the NYT gives a blueprint for how to change the government in Afghanistan..with some selected quotes...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/opinion/03tue1.html?_r=1&th&emc=th
To start, Mr. Karzai must appoint a new group of ministers and provincial governors who are committed to rebuilding their country, not enriching themselves. (We hope rumors that he plans to fire the competent governor of Helmand Province, Gulab Mangal, are false.) The Interior Ministry, which oversees the corruption-plagued Afghan national police, must be reformed. The agriculture, energy and private development agencies all need better leadership.
The Afghan people need to see their government working to protect them and improve their lives if they are going to risk their lives and resist the Taliban.
Mr. Karzai must also reach out to members of the opposition, choosing competent technocrats for senior jobs. Mr. Abdullah has ruled out joining a unity government. But the government would be stronger if some of his supporters decided to participate. We hope Mr. Abdullah is committed to playing an active, constructive role in Afghan politics.
Mr. Karzai must — urgently — break ties with his most unsavory cronies. During the campaign, he allied himself with Gen. Abdul Rashid Dostum, a notorious warlord whose forces have been accused of killing thousands of Taiban prisoners of war in 2001. Justice demands that General Dostum stand trial for his crimes.
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135
You totally misread me, Mister Aurelius Junior.
I am a woman. Of course you don't understand women; you don't even come close to understanding men. No man fully understands women, but some come far closer than you.
I really doubt that you have spent your lifetime "observing" women. Maybe living with women, maybe viewing women, but not observing. Your writing just lacks the depth of understanding that truly observing women would give you.
As a little side note, I doubt you've ever won an argument with a woman, either. Ha!
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Marcus – So you are stating that East Germans are basically Nazis, ‘East Germans who were substantively not much different from the people who populated the third Reich’? Wow, I mean have you actually spoken to anyone from eastern Germany ever? That is an incredibly narrow minded view and since I have friends who are either part German or have German relatives something I find rather insulting.
Which Eastern European countries have chosen to remain Soviet republics? If you mean Czech, Slovakia, Poland, none of them chose their fate and are not socialist now, as anyone with the merest understanding of the region, world politics or history would know that.
Yes a history of Europe could be largely reduced to recitation of wars, anyone doing that would be wrong but you could. ‘The rest are trivial details’, the noise you can hear is my head repeatedly hitting a wall, it is the only way I can mask the pain of having read such a vacuous comment from anyone claiming to have more than a basic education. So the history of medicine, science, literature, the whole Enlightenment are trivial details? Oh dear, I actually think you are being serious.
So Churchill never had any view on foreign policy!?! Focus!
Ah poetic license is it, your ‘poetry’ is pretty rank I must say and again wrong. For much of the latter part of the 20th Century Russia was the dominant European military power.
Afghanistan is not Al Qaeda (them being the terrorist organisation I was mentioning) and none of the terrorists were Afghans so yet another fail on your part.
As for having to listen to speaking clock, I work in the second largest international brokerage house of its kind in the world (and we are British, though we have a number of offices in America), I speak to people around the world on a daily basis, on more continents than you have ever been to. Unlike some when I phone other countries I speak to people I know, friends and colleagues. I will also point out the ‘partly’, I don’t travel to other countries just to hear an accent. If I want to speak with a woman with a nice accent I know enough that they come to me, not the other way round!
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fluffster, where did I say I'd been taken financial advantage of by a woman?
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To add to my last post--
It would help you to know, MaRcuSAureliusII that cool guys who win women's hearts don't go around boasting about their strength like you did earlier on here. In fact, if challenged to an arm wrestle or a game of Uncle they say something like "Oh, I'm not that good." When challenged again, they agree reluctantly. Then they go and actually win. Thus they show others for the fools they are without being braggarts. But I know which type of guy you are...
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141 TC.
Very well put. I too thought hte Observer bit was just a tad creepy;)
MA about a year and a half ago when debating with with Ed (dear departed , no thanks to the silly mods back then RIP Ed /hes If you read this anymore).(hope you are healthy in the real world.)
You were explaining how you were going to use all the resources we were trying to save. the I think you must have had a beer or two because you started ranting.;)
Dear old Sam started taking the micky and somehow you went on about just seeing the back of some woman who was trying to ream you.
As you went on about your whine cellar.
Sorry dude but my memory is not as badly effected by Pot as the dictatorial British Prime minister Gordon the ..... would like to suggest in the absence of any scientific backup.;)
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ps 143 Ma, your brief post said so much
Have you noticed every time you introduce women into your comments you end up with about the same reaction.
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false true conservative;
"Of course you don't understand women; you don't even come close to understanding men. No man fully understands women, but some come far closer than you."
Now there's a woman's logic for you. I'll say more about that further down.
"I really doubt that you have spent your lifetime "observing" women. Maybe living with women, maybe viewing women, but not observing. Your writing just lacks the depth of understanding that truly observing women would give you."
There is much I like about some women. There is much I don't like about many women. One thing I don't like is those women who want me and expect me to change my basic personality to meet their idea of what I should be. I won't and certainly not as an anonymous poster on the internet. That's where I draw the line, this is where I can let it "all hang out."
"As a little side note, I doubt you've ever won an argument with a woman, either. Ha!"
Now that is true. I've come to the conclusion that no man can ever win an argument with a woman. Because even when he wins, he loses. She'll make his life so miserable that he'll wish he'd never gotten started arguing.
Here's what I call a typical exchange;
Man; Are you angry at me? I think you're angry at me. Since you haven't talked to me in three days, I assume you are angry at me. If you are angry at me, what are you angry about?
Woman; Well if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you.
Now that's what I call woman's logic.
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It's nice to see that after all atrocicites committed recently by both, al-Qaida and Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan there are still plenty of those here who seems to be their aficionados. Just as
there seems to be no shortage of enthusiasts of Iranian ayatollahs and their Quds force.
It doesn't come as a surprize: 'useful idiots' will support any left-wing dictator, any thug, any terrorist and any comedian (Fido Castrata, Comical Hugo and Ahmadinnerjacket come readily to mind) as long as they are anti-US. And will find any excuse for them.
But then, what else is new?
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power long time no see on this board , did MA call you for back up?
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fluffster, I don't recall the posting and as far as I can remember no woman ever got the better of me. Being from the scam capital of the world and having watched many a gold digger in my life, I'm always wary of anyone trying to take advantage of my better nature. And I don't treat women differently just because they are women. If I don't like them I don't play up to them pretending I do.
trueconservative, open your own doors, pay for your own dinner, and don't come round my door. Republicats looking to freeload are not welcome here.
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“white women are a problem. That‘s—you know, we all live with that.”
Bill Kristol
I don't know whether to laugh or cry..but here are other Bill Kristol quotes..and Bill Kristol speaks often on tv and is an influence on the right
If we free the people of Iraq, we will be respected in the Arab world... and I think we will be respected around the world.
February 20, 2003
Very few wars in American history were prepared better or more throughly than this one by this president.
March 1, 2003
The first two battles of this new era are now over. The battles of Afghanistan and Iraq has been won decisively and honorably.
April 28, 2003
Barack Obama is not going to beat Hillary Clinton in a single democratic primary. I'll predict that right now.
Fox News Sunday, December 17, 2006 [2]
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lol MA
KEEP DIGGING DUDE.
" Now that is true. I've come to the conclusion that no man can ever win an argument with a woman. Because even when he wins, he loses. She'll make his life so miserable that he'll wish he'd never gotten started arguing.
"
Again a bit misogynistic it seems.
Is it possible that you did not make your point well?
" no woman ever got the better of me."
Again you my be right there. even if you paid them.
Still keep digging MA.
Any more comments.
Kitty nice try, but this is too much fun to engage in your requested argument.
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bepa that all sounds like m a , maybe you found his real Identity
;)
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Obama diplomatic initiative with Putin pays dividends. Russia routs islamic extremists in hideout:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8339549.stm
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#153 fluffytale
Its a shame the stakes are so high..its so much fun to make fun of the right : )
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#110 Marcus
You really do hate women don't you. Now I know why you hate Iran so much - never the twain shall meet eh? Judging that you are always on the BBC website you must be single. Did women reject your advances when you were younger? Or perhaps there was never a woman of your dreams at all.
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fluffster, tc had me fooled. I thought she was a man. And I suppose Willy was a misogynist too when he penned;
"Hell hath no fury like the tongue of a woman scorned."
Words like that can only come from first hand experience. I think sooner or later most men find themselves in that spot. More often than they wish. But it's those five little words that should scare the daylights out of any man with any sense at all; til death do you part. Now that's what I call a life sentence.
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140, bepa.
"The Afghan people need to see their government working to protect them and improve their lives if they are going to risk their lives and resist the Taliban."
The Afghans won't trust any government. It is not in their genes.
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Its interesting how the clothes that women wear have become a point of contention.
The head scarf has produced ridiculous reactions by mostly men.
One of the nations that has been most extreme in outlawing the headscarf is France..and Sarkozy is married to a wealthy woman whose career was modeling. This is his third wife after 2 divorces.
There seems to be some sort of war about women's bodies and how they should be seen...Imo many men try to control women...
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118, RomeStu.
"Educate them, don't bomb them...... and allow them to keep their true culture "
How do we educate them? Take over their schools? Or do you really mean "indoctrinate" them? You know, Freedom and The American Way. I don't think it will fly.
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121, DominickVila.
"We need to determine and address the root cause of the hatred towards us, bombs and indefinite occupations of developing nations will not do the trick. Unfortunately, part of the solution involves ending our military presence in Islamic countries, and instead of doing that we have increased it and plan to increase it even more."
We know the root cause of the hatred - the exploitation of Middle Eastern countries. Four countries did not fall under the American umbrella - Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Syria. We are out to get them all, either militarily or though economic sanctions, or both. We were going to subdue them in that order, but Afghanistan has thrown a monkey wrench in the works. Forget al Qaida, forget the rights of women., forget corruption (like we don't have any.) Think policy. And that policy precedes the terrorist attacks.
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#159 allmymarbles
Is it also in the genes of Americans not to trust a government?
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#120, #123 : So Serbia was a German ally in WWII?? The facts are otherwise. German troops occupied Yougoslavia in April 1941, and the Serbs suffered a lot under the occupation, not least because of the brutal actions of the Croatian fascist Ante Pavelic's Ustasha movement. I thought this was well known, so why rewrite history?
On the subject of Afghanistan, I read the letter of resignation of Matthew P. Hoh, a senior USA officer who served in Irak and Afghanistan. His arguments about the 35-year long civil war in Afghanistan are very coherent, and merit consideration. If the USA continues in its current ways, a Vietnam like defeat might be the result. Is this really what they want? Maybe getting out is another option.
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138, bepa.
"...we are responsible for some of the problems now in Afghanistan..but the majority of their problems was caused by their own culture..and the way to change it is with information."
The problems started when the Russians invaded the country. Then we invaded it. I think those are eally big problems, and not of their making. You seem to think the Afghans are uninformed fools. That is because you do not know the country or its people. And what information shall be give them? Which part of our culture should we impose on them? Kiddie porm? A corrupt Congress? I think we have enough problems here to keep us busy. The American holier-than-thou attitude is offensive, arrogant, and self-deluding.
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162, beoa,
Then we are just as smart as the Afghans. We have a nasty gubernatorial election here in Jersey today. Not finding anything good in any of them I didn't vote. This state has always been infamous for its corruption and, at least when I was young, was called "the armpit of the nation." And Agahani government is corrupt. Oh, my, how awful!
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lostallyourmarbles, we know why certain people hate us. The leaders of the Islamic world hate us because our democratic view of the world is a direct threat to their control whether it is theocratic or just secular despotisms with clerics running things in the background. Our pervasive culture invades their space, puts ideas in people's heads. These nations have propagandized their populations brainwashing them any way then can to turn a blind eye to anything we say or do. Propaganda about Israel is one example. How do you think leaders of Saudi Arabia feel when Oprah Winfrey discusses women's rights on TV with their own wives, daughters, or whomever watching it in their own living rooms. We are a threat to that culture and they know it. That is why they hate us and all other explanations are flimsy excuses and apologies that widely miss the mark. For the same reason, Europeans are jealous of America's pervasive culture and its successes which challenges the sham of their pretended democracies that actually continue to protect the privileged classes there. Their response has been the EU, their latest invention to stem the tide of American cultural influence. It comes as no surprise when a Frenchman smashes up a MacDonald's restaurant, a symbol of American culture many Europeans have been taught to hate.
The problem with these real explanations for the American left in politics is that they fly in the face of their own political agenda which is to bash the very culture that allows them the luxury and freedom to speak out. One can easily imagine Michael Moore driven to a TV studio in his chauffeured limousine to deliver a diatribe on a talk show about the evils of capitalism for which he will be handsomely paid or George Soros flying somewhere in his private jet to do the same.
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#164
"That is because you do not know the country or its people."
I read up on anything that I write about. I actually use these forums to direct my search for information...and I have written also about how it is a responsibility as an American to be informed because American policies have a large effect upon other peoples.
The Taliban outlawed cable tv for a reason. and they also outlawed music. They have been isolating the nation.
The problems did not start with the invasion of Russia.
Some facts.
I start by reading wikipedia:
"It also has been conquered by a host of people, including the Median and Persian Empires, Alexander the Great, the Seleucids, the Indo-Greeks, Turks, and Mongols. In recent times, military operations from the British, Soviets, and most recently by the United States and their allies have taken place. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#History
During the nineteenth century, following the Anglo-Afghan wars (fought 1839–42, 1878–80, and lastly in 1919) and the ascension of the Barakzai dynasty, Afghanistan saw much of its territory and autonomy ceded to the United Kingdom. The UK exercised a great deal of influence, and it was not until King Amanullah Khan acceded to the throne in 1919 that Afghanistan re-gained complete independence over its foreign affairs (see “The Great Game”). During the period of British intervention in Afghanistan, ethnic Pashtun territories were divided by the Durand Line. This would lead to strained relations between Afghanistan and British India – and later the new state of Pakistan – over what came to be known as the Pashtunistan debate.
The media was tightly controlled under the Taliban and other periods in its history, and was relatively free in others. Under the Taliban, television was shut down in 1996, and print media were forbidden to publish commentary, photos or readers letters.[100] The only radio station broadcast religious programmes and propaganda, and aired no music.[100]
After the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001, press restrictions were gradually relaxed and private media diversified. Freedom of expression and the press is promoted in the 2004 constitution and censorship is banned, though defaming individuals or producing material contrary to the principles of Islam is prohibited. In 2008, Reporters Without Borders listed the media environment as 156 out of 173, with 1st being most free.[101] 400 publications are now registered and 60 radio stations, a major source of information, currently exist.[102] Foreign radio stations, such as the BBC World Service, also broadcast into the country.
Literacy of the entire population is estimated (as of 1999) at 36%, the male literacy rate is 51% and female literacy is 21%. Up to now there are 9,500 schools in the country.
...............
I think if only 21% of the women can read that is a problem.
I do not recognize national boundaries when human rights are concerned. I am not a nationalist.
People in these nations have asked for assistance and I listen to them.
By the way there are very strained relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan and that might be because of the british dividing up the land.
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and it is the Taliban that are uninformed fools....
The young rank and file Taliban were Koranic students in Afghan refugee camps whose teachers were often "barely literate," and did not include scholars learned in the finer points of Islamic law and history. The refugee students, brought up in a totally male society, not only had no education in mathematics, science, history or geography, but also had no traditional skills of farming, herding, or handicraft-making, nor even knowledge of their tribal and clan lineages.[49]
In such an environment, war meant employment, peace unemployment. Domination of women was an affirmation of manhood. For their leadership rigid fundamentalism was a matter not merely of principle, but of political survival. Taliban leaders "repeatedly told" Rashid "that if they gave women greater freedom or a chance to go to school, they would lose the support of their rank and file."[50]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban
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stoat;
"If the USA continues in its current ways, a Vietnam like defeat might be the result. Is this really what they want? Maybe getting out is another option."
Getting out is precisely how we lost Vietnam. It was the final straw in fighting exactly the way we've been fighting ever since WWII and certainly in Afghanistan. We gave the Viet Cong sanctuary in North Vietnam, In Laos, Cambodia. We failed to cut off the source of their supplies. We were worried about negative publicity resulting from the massacre of civilians. At first we tried to fight the war on the cheap. Then we became obsessed with the legitimacy of Vietnam's government and with our own body counts. Ironically all this only served to make them higher. Finally having fought to obtain a draw rather than a win, we just packed up and left. It's how we are fighting now and how we will leave unless something drastic changes. And that change had better be a different attitude on how we fight wars and that winning by killing the enemy no matter where, no matter how is all that matters. When the last enemy combatant who is ready, willing, and able to fight us is dead, the war is won and not a moment before. If that means bombing the Madrasas in Lahore then that is what needs to be done. If it means another twenty thousand sorties by drones with harm missiles then that is what we should do. President Obama had better choose between whether he wants to be the most popular man, rock super star, Nobel Peace prize winner on the planet or the commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces. He can't be both at the same time.
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OH God...
Viet Nam is doing better now without a war..and the US is engaging in trade relations with the government of Viet Nam..that is the better way to go
War is the WORST choice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaNukkjoqMU&feature=related
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167, bepa.
I admire your gathering all the information you can on the places you comment on. However there is a politcal bias in most of the sources available, and if you do not have personal knowledge it is difficult to determine which are biased and which are not. The "free press," for the most part, takes its lead from the government. That is why there is so much talk about "women's rights" and virtually nothing about its unerlying agenda. It is very impotant to understand the culture and mindset of the Afghans. These subt;eties can not be picked up from factual, or pseudo-factual, accounts.
As it happens I am very familiar with that part of the world, having lived and worked there for many many years. Although I was mostly based in Iran, I did spend time in Afghanistan and, in any case,Afthans are similar to Iranians and speak a dialect of Farsi (Dari) so I could even converse freely with them. I hope you don't think I am putting you down. I am merely reacting with the frustration I always feel when government propaganda is taken at face value.
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#171 allmymarbles
I can understand your frustration. I feel like I live in an insane asylum sometimes (Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh tea baggers and birthers...on my .)
I strongly approve of Americans going to these other nations and learning the languages and culture. With that exchange we will solve many of the problems we are facing...Humans will naturally accommodate one another imo ..if there is no incitement
Have you read Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi? I love her work.
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#169. Lyndon Johnson escalated the Vietnam war, but it did not work. Then Nixon/Kissinger escalated into Cambodia, etc. and it did not work either. I get the impression that the Afghans don't want to be ruled by foreigners or their associates such as Karzai. As Matthew P. Hoh explains, they just want to be left alone. If you kill some, there will be countless others to replace them, so bombing madrasas in Lahore (an escalation which may not be popular in Pakistan) will just make things worse. An important goal is not to have them harbour Bin Ladens who are capable of destroying things in the USA or Western Europe. But Bin Laden used people trained in the USA (the flying schools) or Europe. To prevent those people from acting out requires vigilant police work, which can be financed at a fraction of the cost of bombs, drones, missiles, etc. Communism collapsed without a hot war, so why not 'islamo-fascism' or whatever it is called.
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172, bepa.
There is a great advantage to living in a culture so different from the one you grew up in. More than anything it gives you objectivity, and knocks loose prejudices you didn't even know you had.
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173, smroet.
"I get the impression that the Afghans don't want to be ruled by foreigners or their associates such as Karzai. As Matthew P. Hoh explains, they just want to be left alone."
That just about sums it up. I would disagree with you, however, about our handling of terrorism. If we adopted a more hand-off policy in the Middle East there would be no terrorism because the reason for the hatred would cease to exist. So trying to take over Afghanistan or crushing al Qaida won't work. In fact, is is counter-productive.
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Lostallyourmarbles
"There is a great advantage to living in a culture so different from the one you grew up in."
Yes, you appreciate coming back home to America that much more. Now whom do you suppose appreciated it more, the big mouthed nut who got herself arrested and put in prison in Iran or the two screwballs who snuck into North Korea and got locked up for what could have been eight years?
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# 174 allmy marbles
Wish I could say more about what I have seen...but this is a public forum..So I feel restricted..but I was an anthropology major and have known friends from around the world...Very few people want to be forced into a marriage and forced to have sex and babies...
I don't agree with a hands off policy as long as there are women treated as slaves. If there were true women's rights around the world...it would change the world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/magazine/23Women-t.html
The Women’s Crusade
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF and SHERYL WuDUNN
"There’s a growing recognition among everyone from the World Bank to the U.S. military’s Joint Chiefs of Staff to aid organizations like CARE that focusing on women and girls is the most effective way to fight global poverty and extremism. That’s why foreign aid is increasingly directed to women. The world is awakening to a powerful truth: Women and girls aren’t the problem; they’re the solution."
...
"the Kashf Foundation, a Pakistani microfinance organization that lends tiny amounts of money to poor women to start businesses. Kashf is typical of microfinance institutions, in that it lends almost exclusively to women, in groups of 25. The women guarantee one another’s debts and meet every two weeks to make payments and discuss a social issue, like family planning or schooling for girls. A Pakistani woman is often forbidden to leave the house without her husband’s permission, but husbands tolerate these meetings because the women return with cash and investment ideas."
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Here we go...
Epic Muhammad movie in pipeline
Islam is followed by around 1.3 billion people around the world
An epic movie about Islam's Prophet Muhammad is in the pipeline, backed by a producer of the Lord of the Rings.
American Barrie Osborne, who also produced The Matrix, told Reuters the film would be an "international epic" aimed at "bridging cultures".
In accordance with Islamic rules, the Prophet cannot be depicted on screen. Images of the Prophet are considered blasphemous by Muslims.
The $150m (£91m) English language film should go into production in 2011.
2010 talks
Qatari media company Alnoor Holdings, which is behind the plans, said it wanted to attract the "best international talent" for the film.
"The film will educate people about the true meaning of Islam," Osborne said.
Raja Sharif, vice president of international projects at Alnoor, told Reuters he expected to conclude deals next year.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8337721.stm
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117, bepa.
You are not addressing the problem. The problem is the agenda and things like women's rights are a ploy for the government to get our support. That is not why we are in Afghanistan. That is not why we went into Iraq. It is not why we are threatening Iran.
In any case those in glass houses should not throw stones. Let us tke care of our injustices, of which there are plenty. By the by the people from all over the world that you have met have chosen to leave their own countries. That indicates from the get-go their affinity for western ways. It does not make them typical. But it does not matter. We have no business interfering in foreign cultures. How would you like Afghans or Iranians or Saudis coming here and outlawing pornagraphy which they consider immoral? Would you tolerate any foreign cultue butting into your affairs. I think not.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#179 allmymarbles
You will like this quote from Mark Twain?
"If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed."
"How would you like Afghans or Iranians or Saudis coming here and outlawing pornagraphy which they consider immoral? Would you tolerate any foreign cultue butting into your affairs. I think not."
allmymarbles quote
Boy you do not know me. : ) I welcome criticism of the US and I think pornography is a problem...I am not a nationalist. National borders have little meaning for me except in terms of my own freedom...and restrictions on me because of laws...I actually feel a little concerned because I go on a blog like this and complain about my nation..but I figure that is a step better than Marcus who I'm pretty sure creates negative reactions to America in others ...with his hypernationalism and willingness to go to war.
I'm an internationalist and a Christian existentialist with a fondness for Kierkegard : ) and his concept of a leap of faith. I've been to Russia, Japan, Tahiti, Fiji, Australia, Great Britain, Ireland, Germany, Austria, Belgium,Norway, Sweden, Finland, Canada , Mexico, France, Italy, Thailand and rarely do I go on tours... I like to wander around on my own...I also love talking to people from other nations...My best friend now is a Muslim woman who wears a head scarf...and we have surprisingly similar values about man's relationship to God. You will interest me because you have lived in other nations
Yes I agree with you that the US went into Iraq for the oil there..and imo the Bush administration knew that Saddam Hussein's regime was weak and losing power. Part of the problem is that men are dominating our policies...not only in the US but in other nations as well.
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181, bepa.
"You will like this quote from Mark Twain? '"If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed.'"
Love Mark Twain. Hal Holbrook started his career impersonating him. It was at my suggestion that Aramco brought him to Saudi Arabia to entertain their personnel. Much to my horror his wonderful performance went over like a lead balloon.
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Somebody has sent my previous comment to the moderators. That's odd. It was one of the funniest postings I have ever submitted. Curious.
126. At 2:45pm on 03 Nov 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"What do you think I am, a Canadian?"
(No, not much chance of mistaking you in that regard)
"I don't use "niceness" as a weapon..."
(Like we hadn't noticed?)
"... although I will admit it can be as effective as any by being cloyingly repugnant to the point of making its victims wish they were dead."
(Or living in New Jersey?)
"Don't forget I come from a nation whose ancestors were considered mongrels and scoundrels in the countries they came from. That's my breeding. Being surrounded by others of my ilk only intensifies my natural proclivities."
(There are so many possible punch lines here, but most of them run the risk of being offensive to the moderators. A shame, that.)
(You mean to say you're a MacGregor? Really didn't think you were a Scot.)
It seems to me that the British have been less likely to wear that thin veneer of aloofness that keeps people at arms length themselves lately.
(No, it has to do with deodorant).
"It's a trait reminiscent of the Japanese culture. Is that because they are island nations and creating space between themselves and others is part of a national psychology since you can only be pushed so far until your back is to the sea?"
(Well, aren't you the one who wants to keep the French out? Why shouldn't the English?)
"...And here you tried to trick me into thinking you were just a Canadian."
"... just a Canadian," eh?
(Somehow I feel that I ought to take offense at this. But jingoism isn't in the national character, unless the activity involves skates, sticks and a puck. Most people just don't get all that wound up over curling.)
"... like he'd just smelled something bad."
(Government in New Jersey?)
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126. At 2:45pm on 03 Nov 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"... Speaking of things that smell bad IF, are you less enamored with Islamic Democracy now than you were six months ago? What's another name for Islamic Democracy, Islamo-fascism? A wolf in wolf's clothing. Talk about mass delusions."
_________
Who says I was enamored with "Islamic Democracy" six months ago?
I like just plain old, vanilla flavored democracy.
I have difficulty understanding how you can have religiously based democracy of any kind. To me, the whole idea reeks of Oliver Cromwell.
You may recall that previous postings in the "Obama's Iran Dilemma" string related directly to that point, for which my postings were ridiculed by two posters from the ministry of propaganda.
That is the conundrum underlying the institutional structures of government in Iran, the "Islamic Republic", where the difficulty is in cutting a balance between "Islamic" and "Republic".
Iran came up with a creative, certainly novel, and rather complicated institutional structure to try to accommodate both concepts. But eventually you run into the problem of deciding whether ultimate authority for state actions lies in the hands of the people, or in the hands of the deity, as interpreted by earthly representatives.
_________
"Well it's possible we'll never hear from la principessa again. ... . If you recall, I did warn her about it. I wonder if she was smart enough to listen."
__________
So did Guns and I, and I think some others. But I'm not making light of it.
__________
"fluffster, I do not enjoy the possibility of the poster who called herself princessonthepea being dead. Quite the opposite, I hope she is alive and well .... ".
_______
If you had stopped right there, it would have been ok, too.
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Here is the link to the old "Obama's Iran Dilemma" string:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/06/obamas_iran_dilemma.html
Here is today’s epiIogue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8341631.stm
“Police have clashed with opposition supporters in the Iranian capital, Tehran, witnesses and state media say. Police used tear gas and batons, said witnesses. Unconfirmed reports said the authorities had also opened fire. Video posted on a reformist website showed hundreds of opposition supporters chanting "death to dictators" in a central square."
"It came as an officially backed demonstration was held to mark 30 years since the seizure of the US embassy.”
"Opposition leader and former presidential candidate Mehdi Karroubi briefly joined the protesters in Haft-e Tir square, according to a reformist website, Mowjcamp. Unconfirmed reports were circulating that police had surrounded the house of another reformist leader, Mir-Hossein Mousavi, to prevent him from joining any demonstration."
Since June, Iranian opposition supporters have held repeated protests over elections they say were rigged to ensure the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. At least 30 protesters have been killed in clashes and thousands arrested. Some 200 opposition activists remain behind bars. Three have been sentenced to death."
"On Wednesday's anniversary of the seizure of the US embassy, US President Barack Obama released a statement in which he urged Iran to move beyond the "suspicion, mistrust, and confrontation" that had prevailed between Iran and the US since then. "Iran must choose," the statement said. "We have heard for 30 years what the Iranian government is against; the question now is what kind of future it is for." "
In view of some of the rather misleading, if not deliberately false, postings made on that string, I had continued to post epilogue news reports on that string for some time. The subsequent news reports gave the lie to those misleading postings. Posting them as a continuing epilogue permitted the relevant articles to be collected in one convenient place.
The BBC has now closed that string (and all other Justin Webb strings) so that no further epilogue postings can be added.
Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Association, and Freedom of Conscience were central to that string. It is a bit of a shame that further postings cannot still be added.
Mr. Mardell?
How do you feel about freedom of speech?
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147. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"There is much I like about some women. There is much I don't like about many women. One thing I don't like is those women who want me and expect me to change my basic personality to meet their idea of what I should be. I won't and certainly not as an anonymous poster on the internet. That's where I draw the line, this is where I can let it "all hang out.""
All the flabby skin, the excessive adipose tissue on the greater omentum, the dirty laundry, the drunken rages, everything. Yes, that at least is true. You let everything hang out. (It's surprising that you'd brag about it, though.)
Why shouldn't I try to change your basic personality when your basic personality is a mixture of selfishness, drunkenness, and anger?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Here's what I call a typical exchange;
"Man; Are you angry at me? I think you're angry at me. Since you haven't talked to me in three days, I assume you are angry at me. If you are angry at me, what are you angry about?
"Woman; Well if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you.
"Now that's what I call woman's logic."
If that's a typical exchange for you, then you have some serious problems with communication. For one thing, isn't it obvious to you that she's upset with you over that garbage you didn't take out, that hooker you slept with, or that run in you had with the police when your BAC was too high?
You could have written the dialogue:
Man: whiny, irritable, & cranky
Woman: "Forget it, you obviously haven't learned your lesson yet."
Anyway, women's logic can be put in a mathematical format, if that suits you better. So here goes:
Man + muscular advantage + alcohol = DANGER
or
Woman's income + many dollars = Man's income for equal labor
How's that for equality?
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#181 bepa
You will like this quote from Mark Twain?
"If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed."
Good man that Mark Twain. American satire at its best. Shame there isn't more of it, especially in days like these.
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Marcus
Your views of women remind me of Schopenhauer's take on women.
You need only look at the way in which she is formed, to see that woman is not meant to undergo great labor, whether of the mind or of the body.
He never married for some reason. Can't think why.
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186. At 2:12pm on 04 Nov 2009, trueconservative wrote:
How wildly, and bizarrely unexpected.
Usually when the blog takes off on tangents it involves the Levantine Rat-hole, or re-fighting WWII. But this is a first: Marcus on the subject of understanding women. Just way too funny.
Talk about images that you just don't want to contemplate.
Is there no depth to which this blog will not descend?
Where is Sam Tyler when you need him?
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157 MA
"Words like that can only come from first hand experience. "
That is why I know you were bested.
166
MA
lol "change subject quick course heading attack europe"
164
Marbles
"The American holier-than-thou attitude is offensive, arrogant, and self-deluding."
too bloody right, well said, here hear.
but as for the Taliban being nice people.
Not true.
they didn't even seem to be that popular.
just provided some safety after the russians pulled out and the feeding frenzy started.
there was another side or two tot he tallibn.
They did close and brutalise those girls trying to go to school(in some areas I know maybe not all Individuals apply the laws of a land . often (GW) they are not mentally capable of doing so).
Either way I agree that we have our own issues to clean up.
bepa "I don't agree with a hands off policy as long as there are women treated as slaves. If there were true women's rights around the world...it would change the world."
Agreed but then should we not take on those that we can work on first
Saudi Arabia?
Dubai.
There are horrific issues with womens rights in both those nations.
If we ignore that then the countries we do target see that we are acting in hypocritical fashion.
And that always undermines an argument.
176 MA
" Yes, you appreciate coming back home to America that much more. Now whom do you suppose appreciated it more, the big mouthed nut who got herself arrested and put in prison in Iran or the two screwballs who snuck into North Korea and got locked up for what could have been eight years?"
I too believe there was some suspicious activity by these people you mention.
But i see no reason to call them big mouth etc. But then you are a bit of a misogynist so it should be expected.
181 bepa
" .with his hypernationalism and willingness to go to war."
marcus is a firm armchair general and chicken hawk. He will not fight.but he will encourage others to.
the worst sort of "human"
"Yes I agree with you that the US went into Iraq for the oil there..and imo the Bush administration knew that Saddam Hussein's regime was weak and losing power. Part of the problem is that men are dominating our policies...not only in the US but in other nations as well."
both points at the top true.
And while I would not say that women would not do a better job I will remind you o=f the hawkish attitude of HillEry clinton when she saw that being a hawk would give her a better chance at being the president.
She bought it fully and signed america up for yet another dumb war.
Then there was our great leader in the UK who basically LET the argentinians invade to save the falklands and win an election.
There are other examples of women leaders that are not like this and they should be promoted but these two big guns are god examples of why I would not be able to agree that one sex would be more peaceful than the other.
I am dead against the death penalty for anyone. ( ANY killing) but I have heard some women say they are not against the death penalty.
vengeance and retribution are not traits if sex.
But agreed the old men running things do seem to screw a lot up.
True conservative.
It has been a pleasure reaming the fool with you.
enjoy your day.
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IF does concern for freedom of speech go to those U numbers that were kicked for debating?
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192. Yes.
We haven't heard from Ed for a long time.
We haven't heard from Guns for a long time.
Sam seems to be too busy.
Seanspa rarely posts anymore.
Haven't seen anything from Timewaits or Bere since the Summer
TimInOhio stopped posting.
We lost our British-ish friend
Our friend in the Southwest
Lots of others, too.
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192 IF.
Britishish may still be on holiday. I suspect He will be back.
South west Do you mean dear AquaArizonagal
I think she was sickened by some of the debates.
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Marbles
what do you think of this.;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxuEBUXJ2rQ
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194
Yes, quite possibly, and even if they hadn't, some of the really disturbing imagery conjured up by TC in this string might well have.
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