When hope is all that's left
The gentlemen and ladies from St Mary's Catholic Church in Closter, New Jersey are busy tonight, piling plates high with home-cooked meatloaf, carrots, potatoes, macaroni cheese and two types of rice. Most of their clients want the lot. It's St Mary's turn behind the serving spoons at the spanking new centre for the homeless in Bergen county.
Sixty-two people who would otherwise be homeless live here but anyone can come in and get the free evening meal. Last night a hundred people came off the streets of this very affluent area, a stylish suburb of New York, to take advantage of the free food.
It's predicted that figures due out later today will show modest growth in the American economy.
Madge and Rosemary handing out a vast quantity of home-baked brownies and brightly-coloured cupcakes, tell a different story to the statistics. They say they are serving twice as many people as this time last year.
The manager of the shelter Mary Sunden says there has been a dramatic change. It's not just the increase in the number of people turning up, it's who they are. Many homeless people have mental health or drug problems. But Mary says they are now seeing a different type of person as well, people who have lost their job and suddenly find they can't keep up payments on their home and a car. She says these people don't know anyone who uses the welfare system but suddenly find themselves in it. They are, she says, "lost, confused and frightened".
None of these adjectives describe Elizabeth Russo. A quietly-spoken but very self-possessed woman in her 60s, she has a resilience that is awe-inspiring. She has been living in the shelter for a year. She lost her home. But never her job. She works in a supermarket and when the economy turned down her hours were cut. Then they were cut some more. Eventually she wasn't earning enough to keep her home.
But she surprises me by telling me she agrees with the official figures. Her hours have gone up again recently, and she can tell that people are spending more, just a little bit more. It's not enough to make a huge difference, but it's there. Tonight she is happy. She has just heard that she can get on a voucher scheme that will mean she can get out of the shelter and into an apartment. She has nothing but praise for the commitment of the staff of the shelter and the stimulus money that made this possible.
Tonight she is happy.
The director to the centre Julia Orlando says that the stimulus money has made all the difference for them, meaning they can extend programmes, helping people get into somewhere they can again call home.
Just before we leave, Julia turns away but fails to hide the tears in her eyes. One man she has worked with is very ill. He lost his job because he was sick. Then he lost his home paying the medical bills. He's been living in shelters for quite a while, but hasn't seen his grown up children because he's too ashamed to let them know what has happened. Now Julia has helped him get an apartment. He shows her the keys and gives her a big hug.
Some will find little comfort in today's cold statistics, and they will question the stimulus package. Doubtless it is right to point out any sign of recovery is fragile and the reason for optimistic statistics should be examined closely. But down at rock bottom, when hope is all that is left, every little victory is sweet.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
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Some of the obvious consequences of a severe recession include dramatic increases in unemployment, the homeless. and crime, and considering the depth and scope of this one the effects that are evident in every corner of our country are certainly not unprecedented or unexpected.
I expect recovery to be slow and bumpy, but we will succeed the same way we have in the past. The differences this time are our huge debt, the erosion of our industrial might, our dependence on foreign credit and investment to survive, and the deplorable state of our infrastructure and our education and healthcare systems.
As dire as our situation is, we should not lose hope or forget that challenges such as those we are facing often offer opportunities and the motivation to excel that made us who we are.
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tell a different story to the statistics.
It's entirely consistent for unemployment to go on increasing even when the economy starts to recover, because economic growth has to be faster than combined population and productivity growth before taking up the slack in unemployment.
Good post.
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An unfortunate facet of the homeless issue is that many are veterans afflicted by psychological or physical problems, or simply unable to adjust and find employment after their return home.
Reductions in unemployment typically lag recoveries in the stock market and improvements in specific sectors, but this time it seems to be aggravated by a reluctance to invest and spend, which has horrible consequences on a consumer-oriented economy.
One of President Obama's greatest challenges is to inspire confidence to encourage an expansion of credit, investment, and spending. President Bush's TARP and President Obama's stimulus package were both necessary, in my opinion, but insufficient to sustain growth. The latter depends almost entirely on the Fed's monetary policies and our willingness to invest and spend.
Hopefully the employment improvement that is bound to happen during the Holiday Season will be enough to provide the stimulus necessary to get things going, but thus far economic improvement is tenuous at best.
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It may have been better to mention that across the river billions were being paid out in banking bonuses by the very people who placed many in that program in their situation. As banks and financial services feel no social responsbilities higher taxes for them are in order to collect some fair share towards the problems they have created. Because the stimulus money has been funneled through state and local governments, after taking "administrative fees" off the top, they have decided to fund projects that are either politically unfavorable or items they should have addressed with past funding. The immediate funds for homelessness, related to foreclosures, was to prevent the Katrina effect. It will be at least until Spring before any of this funding can be seeing results or producing jobs because bureauracies have no sense of urgency and patter through their cumbersome systems that only insure their employment. While some will move from self-sustaining to dependent to self-sustaining, across the river, nothing has changed.
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I live in Metro Detroit,It's ground zero for the economy.The shelters and food banks are beyond stretched.Stimulus money does very little here,even though Michigan is a Donor State,even though they need the funds more they aren't getting proportioned out based on need of population.Fires are starting from people using space and oil heaters in abandoned property and long lines for people in need.It disturbing and the worse is around this nation they keep blaming workers(Most aren't members of UAW) because they worked in manufacturing which is not the case,however unemployment has spread to those who work outside of manufacturing as well.Detroit has problems and the city has been ignored by both parties for many years.The rest of us with jobs and income are supporting and put up our families members who don't.Our extra money is going to our relatives,until they get employment then we can't spend money.And it hard seeing all the job training going to people 50's plus.Many unemployed are young and uncounted and ignored by Obama(his voters),because they recently entered job market.Waiting list for housing in Metro Detroit is now going into years.There are so many empty houses on everybody's block of every type of income.The government is giving loans and tax write offs,but if you have no income or bad credit than you can't get them,now it's rich people buying property to rent and to flip later when economy is good.There has been virtually no job creation by either party and our government continues to outsource to Asia.There are only so many service jobs and if you have no one to offer your service to because they have no job than you don't have one either.Schools closing because lack of property taxes and teachers getting laid off and not just in the Detroit City Proper but in the suburbs(more people live in suburbs than city) as well.Private schools also have slowed enrollment.Stimulus funds kept Detroit Cops on the streets but the Police Department is already understaffed for the size of Detroit.So stimulus funds barely keep the Status Quo.The problems is that States and Regions have been competing with each other which is good but right now people are not working together to fight and force Congress to do their jobs and take care of all Americans.All I know is that whether you are Conservative or Liberal we want the same things right now and must demand them from our government.Balance budget,Job Creation,and efficient spending of our tax dollars.The money that went to Banks and Corporations could have went to people,more than what has been spent.GOP is right about trickle down economics it's just that our money and jobs are trickling into China and India,etc..The government has done a terrible job of protecting it's industries and people like many other countries do.And many people just don't want a Welfare check from the DEMs.Promises were made when they asked for a loan from the US people.I don't see new building projects for our infrastructure(schools and bridges still crumbling),Cable companies didn't up date their service,Banks are not giving out loans,No new public transportation,etc..It was sold as the modern New Deal,how disappointing.The government took our money and lent to their friends without anything to show for it.
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Great post again Mark.
Again we see the poor hard working people suffer because of the rich brats born with a silver spoon in their mouths make a mess of it. Again! And not for the first or last time either. Off with their heads I say!
Heartening to read that there are some real Christians out there who care for the poor and downtrodden.
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Devil's Night will be a good indicator how angry people in Detroit are.Last year 94 houses burned.Hopefully less this year.
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Being UK based I have to fight the urge to regard the way Americans apparently treat other Americans as deplorable. Healthcare, and welfare state generally, or rather the lack of them, sum it up.
Preliminary view dictates that in the US, the wealthiest country in the world, there is no safety net leading to a catastrophic risk to all people that it is all too easy to fall by the wayside if you lose your job- or as you highlight, even if your hours are only cut. That can't be right.
But, as with most things, the more you think about it and take the emotion out, the more balanced you have to be. The US clearly do have a safety net of sorts, perhaps more linked to religious institutions than Europeans are used to. The church of England, the Vatican- these are extremely wealthy institutions who are not as visible in their assistance of domestic populations in need, in Europe as their US counterparts.
So who would I rather have help me if I needed help? An elected government/pseudo government department, or a religious body/group. Not as easy to answer as i'd have thought. The government department is subject to bureacracy and budget cuts/limits- there is more of a stigma to religious assistance (here at least). Actually- the honest answer is that if I needed help, i'd be grateful to whoever, however it was provided...it really wouldn't matter.
A fantastic post which made me think.
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If you want to know what the economic "figures" are going to be for the quarter you're currently in, ask the folks like Elizabeth Russo, or anyone else who works in retail (I do, too). We know when the hours are being cut, if the stores are restocking or hiring, if anyone's shopping. We're the canaries in the economic coal mines. I knew in March of 2008 that we were going into recession because NOBODY was shopping for Easter that year and NOBODY continued to shop for Mother's Day or Father's Day, either. Lately, oh, since Father's Day '09, things are picking up. The customers are back in the store and spending money...granted, they're buying the markdowns, but they're in the store and they don't look like they're particularly upset about it, either. So, if you wait for the fellows in the suits in Washington to tell you what's happening, you're behind the curve, my friends.
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great post Mark.
Again it is so refreshing to see a posting that is not about the poor where the poster had got his information from the state senator.;)
The recovery is going to be slow because it is about money . and that is in gold , gold owned by those ready to make a steal and then sell later as faythe points out.
Oregon is also a high unemployment state.Our county is near 15 %.
No sign here of a recovery.
while it is normal for jobs to follow in a recovery, this time may prove different.Unless we accept making things again. For that to happen we also have to start paying producers more and lawyers etc less.
Good on you for pointing out that some do end up on the streets because the "health system" is so great here that most can't afford it.
that those with jobs can be screwed at the drop of a pink slip.
8 pawns and players.
the religious soup kitchens and help organisations do exist and help people in the UK. have you heard of the salvation army?
there are endless charities in the UK doing the same thing.
But they also campaigned for better institutional care for the people.
they saw the better health of the people as a necessity so backed them.
here in the states many churches were part of the same anti healthcare lobby.
the same people saying no to helping all.
because they wanted to pull the strings and have the influence over the poor to control them.
The "Charity" is definitely there and most do so because they want to help others.
BUT there are a hell of a lot at the top of the american't evangelical churches that use all the charity in a way that would make that biblical character Jesus throw a wobbly.
Anonymous charity is the jesus preferred way. but in the states it is a "tax right off"
to give to a charity that may have strange rules.
to get your meal you have to prEy.
You do not have to bend your religion to get the same from a government health system.
redundancy payments. Not received in the USA.
Holidays for workers.
not received by american't workers.(Hey IF you get it you are lucky so don't claim american'ts get holidays, you do)
The way american'ts treat each other is appalling.
all smiles and touchy feely but when it come to the reality that people need to eat etc. they just stick one finger up.
PS Faythe you seem to blame Obama for this mess.
You do realise the reason most americans are screwed was because of your blind worship of capitalism. hedonistic it could be said.
When profits of mega churches were more important than the health of the people that church is in a pretty dodgy moral ground.
Sure faith based can help but they should be working for everyone's good without any restrictions.
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thinking of brats with spoons deceiler; ta,
That grammar trolling I bring up is a bit like arguing with someone and having them say "sorry I don't get your northern accent so I assume you are thick"
You are northern have a lisp and a stutter so you must be Really thick.
This is no more true of stuttering lisping northerners than well spoken non stuttering non lisping southerners.
But do carry on like snobs if you like.
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Mark: "Just before we leave, Julia turns away but fails to hide the tears in her eyes. One man she has worked with is very ill. He lost his job because he was sick. Then he lost his home paying the medical bills. He's been living in shelters for quite a while, but hasn't seen his grown up children because he's
too ashamed to let them know what has happened."
Would never have happened in the UK pre 1948. Ever! Our nation has been in existance for 233 years. Of those 233 years, we have spent 97 trying to fix our health care problem. 97! Thats almost roughly half of our existance!! Utterly unacceptable!! All our friends were able to solve their health care problems, why can't we? "Conceivable alternatives?" I think so.
Shameful!
P.S. Mark, what do you think about the responses to your '"Why Adolescent America Needs to Grow up" entry?
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Congratulations on moving away from DC. A thought-provoking essay which I need to re-read before making any observations, excepting that I don' think the good burghers of Closter would take kindly to their borough being described as a suburb of New York.
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The reason we have not solved our healthcare problem is not because we don't realize we have one or because we don't know how to fix it. The real reason is the perverse influence of ideology on our psyche and the decisions we make. We rather go broke or deny our fellow citizens the care they need than admit that a socio-economic system we have regarded as evil may be beneficial to us. The insurance industry and its supporters know how to manipulate us and don't hesitate to do it to achieve their goals.
On the issue of retail sales, I would say the problem is not only the lackluster Holiday Season but the fact that most of the jobs that are available are low paying jobs in retail and the hospitality industry, or in sectors such as the medical field that require an education and experience most of our young ones do not have. The result is good jobs going to immigrants and our fellow Americans fighting for crumbs.
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Here's the cynical view:
For religious organisatons taking care of the poor: they are often no less bureaucratic than national governments. Also, they are in the charity industry. They have a vested interest in maintaining a large population of poor and uneducated.
Health care: as I've mentioned elswhere. Some US hopitals may leave the poor to die outside. It's been known to happen in European countries with health care systems. Worse still, there are some European 'health care' systems so rotten and corrupt that patients lie uncared for inside the hospitals.
We really need some direct action to help the poor and uneducated worldwide and long term.
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pawns_or_players #8: '"Being UK based I have to fight the urge to regard the way Americans apparently treat other Americans as deplorable."
Why? Its not as if its a certain stereotype you hold, you're merely just calling it like you see it and your observations are right on the mark. Unvarnished, un (to borrow a British pre-Iraq war adjective) "sexed up." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact I believe we should all view each other this way.
"Preliminary view dictates that in the US, the wealthiest country in the world, there is no safety net leading to a catastrophic risk to all people that it is all too easy to fall by the wayside if you lose your job- or as you highlight, even if your hours are only cut. That can't be right."
Its not and its true. Sure religious organisations step in and help out, but that's not a "safety net." That's merely people being good to others out of the kindness of their hearts. Those churches wouldn't be in trouble with the law if they were to suddenly decide not to serve at soup kitchens or offer lojing for the homeless during the winter months. The term "safety net" refers to a government-run institution, thereby if, say, someone didn't get their unemployment benefits or what have you, that he/she would be fully within their rights to protest and/or sue the government. In that sense, we really do have a very very thin safety net if that, and especially when compared to the UK. A nation which it sounds to me by your post, is probably the best country in the world to suddenly lose your job!! And of course I am not comforted in the slightest by the fact that apparently your government is fully devoted to eleviating child poverty in your wonderful, selfless country by the year 2020!! President Lindon Johnson declared "war on poverty" back in 1965 with the intended aim of eleviating it in this country, and over 40 years later, it seems to have at least doubled!!
Utterly embarrissing!
Why does your country (not just its leaders, by the way) continue to associate itself with us?
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Yes, there is hope -- thank you for writing about it.
However, it will only come to fruition if the leadership, not just in America, but also in other key power centres, accepts that there have been destructive patterns in the past that have to be abandoned. Policy does make a huge difference in everyone's lives, and the people who find themselves in positions to shape policy must feel the full weight of responsibility, and personal accountability, for whatever unfolds next.
The largest problems are caused by those policy-shapers who, having lived most of their lives in a cocoon of privilege, elitism, or true comfort -- or who have enjoyed the advantage of being born male -- simply struggle to identify with the trials of tribulations of the overwhelming majority of human beings who in various ways belong to communities lacking their problem-solving resources.
A very typical example is the fine authorities impose for an infraction. Let us take the typical American parking or traffic fine, Mr Mardell. For the class of people who come up with these fines, a stinging charge of $50 or even $375 may seem almost incosequential. But for the majority of Americans in today's economy, or for a family with intermittent income, or someone who requires medicine to remain well, that fine can generate stress and spiraling negative consequences that no one who came up with it ever envisioned, much less intended.
The people who make decisions that affect everyone have to comprehend that their lives are infinitely more comfortable than anyone else's, to begin with. This has been the one great failure of human governance since time immemorial: that the power elites, whether they be military elites in ancient Roman days, trading elites in the Mediterranean world, aristocrats in pre-Revolutionary European societies, or the power clans and "old boy networks" of our own times must finally learn the lesson that they sit atop a pyramid of human lives that can, indeed, become unstable unless it is thoughtfully administered.
Positions at the top require a commitment to ethics, justice, fairness, human rights, common sense, the rule of Logic as much as the rule of Law -- and a willingness to really, utterly, work hard, setting aside personal biases and the limitations of personal experience.
Furthermore, egregious transgressions, hatreds, moral blindness, shameless deceit and outright moral turpitude -- indifference to the plight of others -- preclude carrying on in one's post, and impose serious penalties when power or privilege have been abused.
That is the first principle of Power 101: it must be driven home, from a young age, if the hope we all long to cling to is to be kept alive, and nourished into outright Transformation, instead of withering on the vine.
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Another good piece, Mark. Thanks.
The GDP figures say we're on our way out of the recession (we need another quarter of growth, I believe, to make it official), but I have my doubts. People are still hurting, especially in the upper mid-west. Corporate America has taken this recession as an opportunity to make their operations more efficient, finding ways to get the same amount of productivity out of fewer workers. I suppose that's what corporations are supposed to do: maximize profits (it's the free market system after all), but as long as those people out of work or underemployed remain that way, to my way of thinking the recession continues.
I can't help but feel somewhat responsible for this situation. I'm a software developer. My career and others' like me have been about the creation of new businesses that couldn't have existed without computers, which has created jobs, but I can't ignore the very real fact that computers have also caused the elimination of many more lower wage jobs. I'm afraid that those jobs are gone for good, and I don't know what these people are going to do. I'm afraid they're going to end up on the streets.
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I think that Americans like to see and like to encourage "social justice" and do not respond favorably to "socialism." There is no real disagreement on what needs to be done in a crisis situation, but the manner in which it is done is important. I would rather spend my own money helping people out, than have "government" take my money and spend it where they think it should be spent.
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pawns_or_players (#8) " ... in the US, the wealthiest country in the world, ... "
The US is not the wealthiest country, on a per capita basis, but it depends on how you define "wealth." Here is one measure, based on GNP: GNP per capita
The World Bank has developed a more sophisticated metric, which attempts to account for intagibles. Here is a link to an article about their study, which contains a link to it: The Intangible Wealth of Nations (from Reason.com)
The World Bank places the US fourth, after Switzerland, Denmark, and Sweden (in 2000).
The World Bank report is a pdf, but the document linked here is not.
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Not just Hope, but CHARITY. "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." -Corinthians
Now charity and a giving nature is somethin many Americans got and can be proud of 'specially in times of trouble.
As to the economic recovery, who knows what they're counting today, there are a lot of for sale and for lease signs round here, so we shall see.
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AndyPost (#18) "My career and others' like me have been about the creation of new businesses that couldn't have existed without computers, which has created jobs, but I can't ignore the very real fact that computers have also caused the elimination of many more lower wage jobs."
Are you sure about this? I have been in the computer business for a long time, and it seems to me that far more jobs have been created by the use of computers than lost. Computers have changed the way people work, so (for example) we use word processors on computers instead of typing. Perhaps there are fewer clerk-typists because of the greater efficiency of electronic document handling, but I doubt it. More likely, we produce and file more documents instead.
I see job loss in the US as mainly being a result of overseas manufacturing. I try to buy things made in the USA or Canada, when I can, but it's difficult.
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My heart goes out to those who struggle to keep a roof over their head and food on the table wherever they hail from.
America is for me the folk I have met whilst attending different churches,both over there and over here.They worship a higher calling than just narrow nationalism.They have that 'can-do' and generousity of heart and spirit that results in an outpouring in aid to the less fortunate.
This is a mission in which that the US is second to none...
I have seen first hand in the field, dedicated Americans working in the most desparate situations and I cannot begin to tell of my admiration for their ilk.
They do not like the limelight or to be praised for what they do.They work quietly and very efficiently.
The reason I continue to associate with US folk is ,they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.We are family.
Whatever the US has to face, if it refocuses on Christ,Not Religion,it will never lose it's #1 spot....
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#15 WolfiePeters: "Here's the cynical view: For religious organisatons taking care of the poor: they are often no less bureaucratic than national governments. Also, they are in the charity industry. They have a vested interest in maintaining a large population of poor and uneducated."
WP, I think some of your cynicism is unwarranted--and a bit extreme. I work at a small, progressive, social justice-oriented church but don't attend the church myself, which gives me both an insider's and an outsider's perspective; as part of my job I administer the church's benefice program. The church is fairly typical of many Protestant congregations in the US in that it is affiliated with a national denomination but retains autonomy over all local decision-making. Its bureaucracy consists of a committee of 4 church members.
While the church where I work considers charity one of its important missions, the idea that it--or any church--has a vested interest in keeping people poor and uneducated is really appalling. *The church will not go out of business without this clientele.* Like many churches, my employer engages in both "triage" assistance like the shelter Mark describes and "hand-up" assistance that enables people to get back on their feet. It would not offer "hand-up" assistance if it wanted to keep people dependent on it; it offers "triage" assistance because it acknowledges that life can throw nasty curveballs to all of us, no matter what our social class, education, or character.
I live in New Mexico, one of the very poorest states in the country. (We're usually around #48.) While the recession has not affected us as much as it has, say, Detroit, many people here were at rock bottom to begin with. Even so, as Mark describes, the church where I work has also seen a change in those who come to our door seeking for help. Before the recession, they were primarily "regulars"--those with long-term problems with mental health and/or substance abuse who essentially run the circuit of charitable organizations for food, shelter, and medical care. Some of these people have been on the streets for literally decades, and in and out of every rehab program in the state. (Are we helping them? Or are we enabling them? The church remains divided on this issue.) In the last year we've seen more first-timers, some blue-collar workers, some professionals. We've had more church members needing assistance paying their utilities--and mighty humiliated about it they are.
*We would very much like it if these people never needed help again. ANY of them.* To suggest a vested interest in keeping them miserable... Oh, dear. We will always have those who come to us looking for help in emergency situations--it would be nice to have the resources to give them what they need, and not to have already spent them on people we have purposely kept "poor and uneducated" in order to feed our charitable industry.
As Pursuit of Love (#16) says, churches are not really a safety net--they're more suited to offering short-term assistance, which they can usually do immediately in ways that an actual bureaucracy cannot. But they are no substitute for good health insurance, unemployment and disability benefits, etc.
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I'll be honest: I'm not inclined to feel much sympathy for the well-to-do middle classes and their offspring that suddenly find themselves at the bottom of the well with little or no help available to get them out. When times were good they scorned the unemployed, the under-employed and the poor - insisting their unfortunate state was their fault and theirs alone. The poor didn't need handouts, they needed tough love.
They showed their love for the least of us by systematically destroying most of the social safety net we'd built in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, because they forgot what their parents and grandparents remembered of the Great Depression. That it could happen to anyone - even them.
They voted for people who railed against entitlements, so the people they elected gleefully cut funding - but didn't bother to lower their taxes as promised. They railed against subsidized public housing, so much of public housing around the country was torn down and replaced with mixed income housing - with only a third of all new housing going to those with subsidies. In doing so, they recreated the phenomenon of the tenement - though the slums are often now in the suburbs, where the working poor and indigent were shifted to gentrify the cities and create a pool of cheap labor for the 'burbs.
They cut public health care funds, they cut public education funds, they cut funds for housing for low-income seniors and the disabled. They cut everything they didn't require and didn't think anyone else ought to need, because they certainly didn't.
And now they do need it. They need it desperately, but there isn't anything left for them. No room at the inn, no place at the table. If the system is slow it's because it is poorly staffed with workers who couldn't make it in business. The young idealists were taught idealism doesn't pay, and the mediocre drones with the power, appointed by the tough love bureaucrats, drove them out. The War Against Poverty became The War Against The Poor.
So now we decry that the shelters are overwhelmed and the suddenly impoverished middle classes have joined the queue for the free food/hot meal programs. Well, I remember the past several years. The church where I serve free hot lunches every third Saturday has always had a dozen or so seniors, several working families with small children and a couple of dozen hopeless homeless men and women needing to be fed. True, some of the homeless were addicts or alcoholics, and a few mentally ill. But mostly, they were just survivors of personal catastrophes wandering aimlessly through life - while trying to get into treatment, housing or job training programs that either no longer existed or were over burdened with waiting lists.
A part of me feels sorry for the struggling middle classes. But a bigger part of me feels that justice has finally been served. As they beggar themselves, let them learn and remember what their elders knew and vote accordingly: There, but for the grace of God, go I.
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One good quarter where there was (taxpayers i.e. my) money used for trading up an old car - yes sales went up but now the cash is no longer there have sales gone down again? I would ask the same question in the UK and Germany where this incentive may have artificially/temporarily increased sales but where you might expect sales to tank after.
I'd like to see 2 successive quarters or at least 12 months in the black before I start shouting too loud. Caterpillar just laid off how many people this week and unemployment is at how much? Is this just a banking bubble created by the same people on Wall Street responsible for the crash in the first place?
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Sounds like its time to pick up and re-read Grapes of Wrath
"We was farm people till the debt. And then—them people. They done somepin to us. Ever’ time they come seemed like they was a-whippin’ me—all of us. An’ in Needles, that police. He done somepin to me, made me feel mean. Made me feel ashamed. An’ now I ain’t ashamed. These folks is our folks—is our folks. An’ that manager, he come an’ set an’ drank coffee, an’ he says, ‘Mrs. Joad’ this, an’ ‘Mrs. Joad’ that—an’ ‘How you getting’ on, Mrs. Joad?’” She stopped and sighed. “Why, I feel like people again.”
"Men who have created new fruits in the world cannot create a system whereby their fruits may be eaten. And the failure hangs over the State like a great sorrow . . . . [A]nd in the eyes of the people there is the failure; and in the eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage."
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#23 UKWales - Although I might not have the same belief as you, I agree with your spirit!
This is one area in which America can not be faulted and that is in feeding people who have fell on hard times, grief, natural disaster - fed by those who are not responsible for said hard times.
Loss of a loved one & your house will be filled to the rim with food so that those grieving will not have to concern themselves with the simple act of cooking/shopping.
See the food fly during a natural disaster
See the turkeys in abundance during Thanksgiving to feed those displaced, travelers lost, those with no family, sharing tables with regular everyday families who open up their homes and restaurant owners who open up their businesses.
In some states, they accept hunters' donations of deer meat, etc. processed free and given to the needy.
Many communities maintain a "pantry" and those better off continually donate food items to keep it stocked & The Boy Scouts leave & retrieve a plastic bag at households for donations
Christmas baskets are filled with food and delivered to the needy.
Move to a new neighbourhood, someone always drops in with some welcoming edible.
Many churches offer hot lunches every day, if you are shut-in, they bring it to you
And the majority of the above, all done by volunteers.
There has always been room at the Americans' tables!
There is no doubt in my mind that the generous, giving spirt will rise up to meet this challenge.
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#25 G. LaPoste
As always, thank you.
I know my post was somewhat simplistic, but I tried to veer away from the extremes on both ends of the scale, and point out those "real" Americans. But I certainly do "get" your point.
#27 Frayedcat
Lovely post! I might have to at least pull out the DVD this evening!
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Mark: Great post, as many others have said.
All: My dad talked to us kids a little about the great Depression. He was in Ozark, MO, and apparently went through a lot of hardship (started working at age 11, and didn't stop till he died, except for a short period in Europe dealing with an Austrian "artist"). He did tell us, though, about his elementary school teacher actually getting the kids to bring in carrots, potatoes, etc., so they could make and eat stew for lunch. I've never been to that kind of situation, and hope like crazy I don't wind up there. Budget cuts in 2011, though, may just let me experience that. Gotta happen sometime.
@14 (StD): I think some of the roots of this lie in some of the excesses of government regulation in this country during the late 1960s / 1970s. Some of it was just stupid beyond belief (e.g. OSHA stepping in to regulate toilet seat dimensions (!), the FCC regulating the operations of unpaid volunteers and requiring extra paperwork from them, etc.). It dissipated the Government's funding and energy into areas that were less important and should have just been left alone. It also set the stage for too many folks to uncritically accept the "Government is the problem" line, because in far too many cases, it had demonstrated that it really WAS, AND that there was no escaping its clutches.
There has also been too much lunacy on the part of the population relative to financing. When a local legislator (I am not making this up) said in a council meeting many years ago that, "Oh, we aren't paying for this. This money is coming from the Federal government..." it's a clear indication that some folks just don't understand how the money flows!
These are stern times, for sure. As far as recovery goes, the local news said this week that Christmas revenues were expected to be down 1-2 percent. We'll have to see what this looks like in January.
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The "social safety net," which includes Social Security and its derivatives, is a "Ponzi scheme," and we all know how that turns out. In the 1930's there were about 30 workers for every retiree--now the ratio is 3 to 1. Add in the cost of healthcare today and the fact that people are living longer in their retirement years, and you will find that the nostalgia of the 1950's socialism costs quite a bit of someone's paycheck today. I will not comment on what we have put on as a loan from the next generations.
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Post:#28.
You have described the Us that I love.
When the US had a top secret Navy Base here in Pembrokeshire I got to know so many American families, many non christian but all with a generous disposition,that's definately an American trait, and most indearing....
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ukwales #23: '"The reason I continue to associate with US folk is ,they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.We are family."
Well that's very sweet and flattering, but what if you were an atheist. Why then would you associate yourself with America? And why do the majority of your non-religious fellow Britains (both government and individual people alike) continue to associate with us?
When I wrote that question, I did so largely in reference to the deplorable governmental institutions set up in my country to help care for our fellow man when compared to any other first world country, but especially yours. I wasn't really asking on a religious basis. I was merely pointing out, well, rather underscoring 'pawns_or_players' (at #8) point that in the US, the majority of help does in fact come from religious organisations, not governmental ones, and frustratedly stating that I think that that's wrong.
Again I'm flattered by your complimentary commentary on me and my fellow citizenry, but just so you know, anyone of any nationality can possess the characteristics of a can-do spirit and generosity. But if I were to pick a nation of which those qualities were ingrained, as it were, in its national genetic make-up, I would have to say Britain, not America.
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Ref 31, Matt
"I will not comment on what we have put on as a loan from the next generations."
Are you planning to explain why we have been running large surpluses until this year and why the U.S. government - Republicans and Democrats - have been raiding the SS Trust Fund for decades to give the illusion that our federal budget deficits are not as severe as they really are.
If the SS Trust Fund had been left alone this program would have been solvent for many decades, in spite of the changes in demographics that you alluded to and that are, of course, a reality.
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OpenRoads #24. . .
Thank you for backing me up.
CammerwellBeauty #28. . .
Thank God (an expression) we have this generosity of spirit, because the government sure isn't too keen on helping us out!
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Small amendment to my post #12. I said "pre 1948," I meant to say "post 1948."
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#31 "nostalgia of the 1950's socialism"...YIKES.
"Because of the Cold War, McCarthyism, and dominance of the “Middle American” values, the Communist and Socialist parties virtually disappeared in the 1950s" http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1669.html
I am thankful for the progressive, reform and social rights movements in US since the 1800's....even if they were led by the GOP.
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ref 29 CamberwellBeauty
You spoke to what you know and believe to be true, as do we all. Your post showed simple faith, not simplicity. And while I admit that Americans are very generous with their time, energy and personal wealth, I still see the need for an organized effort at the national level that leaves nothing to the chance vagaries of charitable donations. No matter how well meaning, just working within one's own community, we often miss the bigger picture. And those communities that do not have the wherewithal to help themselves need government intervention. A social safety net is just another form of charitable contribution. Those who didn't want, and still don't want, their tax money going to those people, whom they don't consider worth helping, have condemned themselves to a painful struggle. Because they, or their children, are now or might someday become those people.
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Ref 28, CamberwellBeauty
"There is no doubt in my mind that the generous, giving spirt will rise up to meet this challenge."
Charity is an absolute necessity at times like these, but it is not a long term solution to the problems that afflict us.
After decades of demonizing government, allowing American corporations to move their factories overseas to increase the bottom line, and voting for whomever promised to reduce taxes without considering the consequences of that decision what we need is a major change in direction.
I support President Obama's domestic policies and believe he is on the right path, but I doubt the special interests that influence the decisions made in Congress will have the fortitude and patriotism to invest in repairing our infrastructure, or give incentives to companies that do business and create jobs in the USA, or provide funding to encourage R&D and the emergence of new industries and technologies in fields such as energy which would have the added benefit of reducing our trade deficit, or would encourage funding increases for education or new funding for public healthcare, and I would be truly amazed if they did anything to change the growing gap between the very rich and the poor in the USA.
Our politicians talk a good game and try to portray themselves as average Joes looking out for our best interest, but are their proposals really in our best interest? The tax reductions and promises of putting money back in our pockets is more often than not just an illusion, and when they do materialize it is at the expense of the safety net that every society needs.
Not surprisingly, our DoD budget and our determination to fund crusades is one the last bastions of employment in America. Perhaps some of the folk going to St. Mary's should consider submitting a job application to Blackwater USA...I believe they pay above average wages and all you have to do is shoot infidels...
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Calling Social Security a "Ponzi scheme" is just right-wing rhetoric. A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment which requires a geometrically increasing number of new "investors." Social Security is not an investment promising (unsustainable) high returns; it is insurance against outliving one's ability to work, supported by a tax on working people. There is nothing inherent in Social Security which requires an increasing population of workers.
Social Security has worked rather well for about 70 years. The problem of projected inadequate funding is largely a matter of demographics: increased life expectancy for retired people and the large size of the "baby boom" generation, now reaching retirement age. Dealing with this problem is merely a matter of prudent management, making adjustments to take into account current demographics. Some adjustments have already been made, and I expect others will be made as needed.
Here are a couple of links to relevant background material on Social Security:
life expectancy
workers per retiree
The second chart shows that workers per retiree in the US has generally followed that of other large developed countries.
The underlying principle of Social Security is merely that people take care of their elderly, when they are unable to take care of themselves, applied on a national level. If someone objects to taking care of our elderly, I would ask what he intends as an alternative.
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#38 G LaPoste
#35 Pursuit
As I said, I was being simplistic in pointing out the American People, and their gift of generosity, of which there is a great many.
I do however, agree with what you both say on a more political level.
All I can further add, is that as individual human beings, we must do what we can on that personal level and do it in good heart, regardless of rotten government, policy & further, rotten people!
I must hang on to my optimism or I'll go nuts!
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14 StDom
"We rather go broke or deny our fellow citizens the care they need than admit that a socio-economic system we have regarded as evil may be beneficial to us. The insurance industry and its supporters know how to manipulate us and don't hesitate to do it to achieve their goals."
Spot on, and nicely put.
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10 fuff
"here in the states many churches were part of the same anti healthcare lobby. the same people saying no to helping all.
because they wanted to pull the strings and have the influence over the poor to control them."
Sadly this also rings very true.
It is not a criticism of the individuals out on the streets volunteering their time and effort to help people - it is the blindness that allows them not to see that there is a better, more efficient and more equitable way to do it .... as used by every other Western democracy .... socialised medicine.
I would like to add that on my many visits to the USA (18 states so far) I have always been struck by the high level of charity giving and volunteering by individual people ... there is always a need for that, by why does it have to come with a caveat. First fix the system so that the poor are ok, and then volunteer to help the truely desperate who will have slipped through the net.
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19 MattofNJ
"I would rather spend my own money helping people out, than have "government" take my money and spend it where they think it should be spent."
Since much of the charity work is organised through churches this creates a situation where certain groups not seen as "acceptable" may be left out. Or perhaps the people most in need have to endure a bit of sanctimonius proselytising to get their "daily bread".
For a country with a seperation of church and state the religious organisations (with all the acknowledged good they do) have way to much power over policy. Look at Bush's potentially excellent aid to Africa programme, and then see that most of it came with the byline that "abstinence" was to be promoted as the primary means of stopping the spread of AIDS.
Charity shouldn't ask and shouldn't tell, and best of all should be anonymous if possible - the mark of the truely good person is that no one knows they are doing it.
But most of all charity should be the moral safety net held out by good people in society .... after the state has made all efforts possible to ensure that people have a reasonable standard of living and healthcare.
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23 ukwales
"Whatever the US has to face, if it refocuses on Christ,Not Religion,it will never lose it's #1 spot.."
But what would Jesus do ? Would he want an equitable healthcare system that cared for everyone?
I guess it depends on whether he owns shares in Health Insurance Companies....
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#25, Gavrielle LaPoste -
Excellent post; very true.
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Mark,
I can’t recollect to have read something more horrible and disturbing than the present report while you were still in London. What did really happen ? The recession seems to be the same here in Europe, I mean in Bulgaria. The journalists are omnipresent too but nobody so far has reported about such shelters here, no matter they do exist. The reports concern kids that have been abandoned by their parents, teenagers that have left their homes etc. But nobody here speaks about jobless people in the way you report how things are going in America. Why? Where is the difference?
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#25 Gavrielle_LaPoste
A part of me feels sorry for the struggling middle classes. But a bigger part of me feels that justice has finally been served.
I imagine there may be some like you say and Bob Dylan's voice comes into my head singing Now how does it feel?
But I also imagine that lots of these people are just ordinary hard working people who hardly made a dime in the first place, not the middle classes that you speak.
It's the rich that have been throwing their dimes at these hard working people and drinkin', thinkin' that they got it made.
It's time everyone said to these rich people: "Beware doll, you're bound to fall" and then say how does it feel?
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47. At 8:50pm on 29 Oct 2009, dceilar wrote:
I imagine there may be some like you say and Bob Dylan's voice comes into my head singing Now how does it feel?
But I also imagine that lots of these people are just ordinary hard working people who hardly made a dime in the first place, not the middle classes that you speak.
I don't need to imagine anything. I live in a blue collar neighborhood, i.e. the working poor, surrounded by middle class condos and new homes. And while we are taking a hit, we are also doing better because, being nearly at the bottom, we knew how the system worked and how to make it work for us. Our more affluent neighbors don't, and they were making enough money before the crash to peddle past us on bicycles built for two with baby on board wearing designer outfits every weekend - while attempting to have all the low income housing in the area torn down, because the landscape award winning, Army Corp of Engineers built, former 1930s naval base where I live was, to them, "an eyesore". And while some of the local yuppies have been into the management office to see if they can now get government subsidized apartments here, where the rent is only 30 percent of your income, the elected officials they put into power are still trying to have this place torn down, or rehabbed into mixed income apartments.
The people who "hardly made a dime" are my friends and neighbors, who always voted in favor of social programs, because they knew that they were just one step above the poverty line, and they or their children sometimes needed the help. But the much larger middle class, living its comfortable credit card financed lifestyle, elected Conservative Democrats and Republicans to office. And now they are learning, the hard way, what it really means "to be on your own, like a rolling stone". God help them, because their fellow Republicans and Conservatives surely will not.
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#46 What, no Hoovervilles in Europe?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124994409537920819.html
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40 GH1618,
With the exponential growth of health-care costs and the aging of the workforce, the mathematics shows that you will run out of money--maybe it could be put off for some time with prudent investing, but it will eventually collapse--like a Ponzi scheme. It is the health-care that will kill us.
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#48 Gavrielle_LaPoste
God help them, because their fellow Republicans and Conservatives surely will not.
Indeed! I've always believed that the middle classes are the scum of history. Put a carrot on a stick and they'll go wherever you want them to! They won't learn their lesson. History says they never do!
And an excellent post I might add.
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48 and 51
The middle class is by far the greatest good the US has given to itself and to the world. Without it, it is doubtful that either of you would have the ability to post the nonsense that you do.
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50 mattofNJ
"It is the health-care that will kill us."
Does this not sound a bit odd to everyone?
Matt,
If the US would just come out with it and say "you know, we're just selfish b%&£&$ds and we don't care about people who haven't got the money to buy decent healthcare" then we'd understand.
It's the hypocrisy after all the moralising that gets my goat.
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#52 Matt
Without the self-deluded, self-loathing, and self-alienating middle classes we wouldn't need to post our 'nonsense'. Your post @50 saying It is the health-care that will kill us proves my point.
History in Europe shows that the middle classes benefited most from the 'socialist' welfare state - and not just from a welfare perspective but from an employment one!!
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#52 -- I think Aristotle would be offended, since he said of the middle class "The most perfect political community must be amongst those who are in the middle rank, and those states are best instituted wherein these are a larger and more respectable part, if possible, than both the other; or, if that cannot be, at least than either of them separate." I think, although I am not certain, that was before the US of A was established.
And I think I heard that the wealth divide, or "wealth condensation", is eroding the middle class in the US. I think the imbalance of wealth, and the behavior of the wealthy (including corporate persons), are aggravating that circumstance. Only government (or anarchy or revolt) can intervene....
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#33 PursuitOfLove,
I think my previous post to yours answers my feelings on the generousity of non christian Americans.
As for the flattery bit.
In the mid 90's a group of Christian friends heard of the need for food and clothing in Romania,so a truck was obtained,filled with aid and off we set east.We ended up in a town called Brazov.The aid was to go to an orphanage there.Only then did we find out how it was set up.
Two Americans,Marvin&Merrie, supported by American churches, had bought an old TB hospital,refurbishing it themselves,and had in their care 25/30 abandoned street kids.In their care they had medical care,food and education in a clean and loving enviorment.
What these Americans achieved was deeply moving..Flattery??No!..
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55
As to whether middle classes existed before the USA was formed, I am sure you are correct. I said and I meant that the US middle class, especially post WWII, has been the force for the greatest good in the US and maybe in the world.
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In order to boost consumption long term debt has to be fed into the system. The reality is that that is the easy route forward in expanding an economy which is why it is so popular. Debt is money from the future. It means you are poorer in the future. Simple as. Calling debt to account overnight means bankruptcy for all who have debt. By definition they dont have the cash to pay off the debt or they wouldn't have the debt in the first place. Hence the bank rescue, there was never any choice. If the banks failed like dominos then all debt associated would be immediately due and mass bankruptcy would ensue. The bank rescue pushes the long term debt back into the future but it is the near future, not the long term. The debt still needs paying off and the pay off has to accelerate, it has shifted accounts. As the feed of further debt has slowed dramatically then when we get to the future we will be poorer. Simple as. This is not going to go away. Technology has increased productivity in the system so less people are needed. Simple as. Just look at the number of people working on the land a hundred years ago and now. It applies in almost every field, pardon the pun. The problem is made worse by the import of cheap goods from low labour cost areas. The only rational outcome is being poorer because there simply is not the need for labour. This is not going to go away. Labour redundancy will remain in the system and the only way forward is working less efficiently, that increases employment. Working less efficiently means producing goods and services that are not consumed at a high rate, reducing built in obsolescence, ie giving value, reducing volumes, still working hard and effectively. Globalisation is already finished, it has nowhere to go, it is a collapsing wave. It means a reduction in the game to date of pass the parcel with each handler picking up a percentage. A structural change. Some current skills becoming less useful, less wanted. There will be no easy uplift. Those at the bottom of the stack understand this. Those who have in reality been carried along on the bloatation do not understand this they are convinced they are important when in most cases they are not. I have been in all of these places and I am currently very effectively working inefficiently. If you cannot understand what is written here I can tell you that you do not understand what is in process. And the public sector has to have a viable effecive private sector, it need the tax income or it shrinks pro rata. I can see nothing other than the public sector reducing. This is going to be quite a ride for some. Others will not be that affected, that is the way change happens, it is arbitary, there is no meritocracy, just Darwin.
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No offense, all you mr/ms anti religious (and righteous) people out there of the world, but this site does not represent the world.
Religion is not a cuss word or inappropriate topic to be discussed. Instead, You ought to thank your lucky stars that you are not forced to convert to ..a..religion, athiesm included. (philosophy, whatever institutionalized)
Also, this is a "community of world commenters" whom often are insulted when they express their most valued pearls of wisdom by we "world swine."
I am religious in a spiritual form of physical/psychic/cyclical/educationao (outside influential) sense and I AM NOT ashamed to admit it.
When famous people (religious gurus of the world) come to the United Nations in New York, USA to seek followers and influence, it bothers me notl
A man named Sri Chinmoy
(an Indian guru/religious leader of western peoples..whose converts are Santana musicians, and well, that could go on and on..and I could research and tell you the important 1960s people wh read or followed his writings)
by just living... has given me ...another influence than just science, my baptist preacher father (not that proud lol), literature, history, and finally education (the least influential but very impassioned=their reliance on expert opinion)
And also, if I cannot extoll Public Television and "Nova" then its ok to not be able to talk about "Christ." and other religious notables.
That is definitely not the world I would want to live in--institutionalized atheism is just as grotesssque as any state approved religion (licensed in Europe and Russia?)
So, thank you America AND FATE, for letting me be born where I was, so to be soooooo Strange as I am and am coping with being Strange and HAPPY to be That thing.
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#57 I love the US middle class too. Hard to say what would be the greatest force for good. I wonder if the poor aren't really the greatest force for good, I mean, if the greatest good equals charity (Corinthians) then the more poor there are, the more opportunity for charity...right? And if good means hard work and self sufficiency with a solid work ethic, then the more poor there are, the more people will have inspiration to work hard (for peanuts). Plus from a Darwinian perspective, the hardle we struggle, the more likely we would be to wean out weak genes and survive.
If the greatest good is being rich, then the more middle class there are, the more likely some of them can get a bit more and be rich.
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Amazing Grace, Wonderful and masterful.
The rewards for the masses are the promises of the politicians.
Since when has there been a time where the people rejoiced in plenty.
Beware the man who believes in man.
The very last time I recall in the US, as a time of some economic prosperity for the common citizen, was during the Bill Clinton terms.
The bases around the US had even closed down or were streamlined.
Some abroad were deemed outdated and abandoned. The employment was the best as it is ever going to be again.
This praise comes with a price and no pres is perfect and in fact will any pres ever be.
The political melody is always to the tune of asking John or Jane to make one more sacrifice, not for themselves, not for the country, not even for their loved ones.
It is for those underprivileged few, who have nothing, no one or are waiting for the great American charitable heart, the one that bleeds profusely for the underdogs in need. Well, Since many believe that the single digit billionaires of this country are the ones in control of all finances, why is it too hard or difficult to wipe out the national debt, by paying it off completely themselves and show their appreciation for the great opportunity America has given them to prosper. You want to know why?(rhetorical question).
Because it is social welfare in their eyes. Because someone in the time of the constitution said, every man should build and have his own house and do so with their own sweat and work. No, the problem will be handed to you and me, so that we may act on our left over of prosperous abundance and good faith. So far we have done just that. Now, is a time when we see someone fall, and because we are late for work we leave the person to their own devices. Not all of us do that of course, however each day the burden increases for each one of us. Each day we get flim flamed by a (ruthless greedy good for nothing but) selfish pig. Our senses begin to suspect falseness in places where there is perhaps none. Our hearts are hardened by the phony pleas for help by someone asking for donations, for a dead relatives to be buried, because of lack of funds by the family. Someone who has cancer and needs and operation and ha no coverage, and we gave, we gave and joined their cause and created a drive to give money for that needy individual.
Soon, we found out that it was a lie and the money went for a boob job, trip to Europe, a house or something that made our hearts tear to shreds. So we don't give anymore.
Yet, some or many still need and for real this time, or maybe we need.
Those with all the monopoly money sitting comfortably in BoA or some other Fruity mac, Fancy mae, they are the watchers of society. Where are the dividends of the corporations we bailed out? when do we start profit sharing, as vested investors, and I mean you and me, not the USA. Yes it will take time to begin to show signs of normalcy, but neither one of us will ever bathe in that private swimming pool of loot. Turn in your neighbor, call the cops on someone who yelled at their teen, those things we will do. Our sense of patriotism will take many to turn on their own friends, if they even utter criticism against one of our majestic principles. While at the same time Some kook on live tv will pee on the image of, what they think is amusing, (JC) and many will like that. The ads to proclaim atheism are set to be posted across the US and that because they don't believe in something, and they must prove that point all around. If you don't believe, fine, don't believe, but why go to all the trouble to disbelieve in something, you don't believe in the first place. That we are seeing people, who otherwise would be, a house owning, hard working and good citizen turn out at some shelter asking for food? We are, and will see many more, they are feeling what the rest of us have been feeling all along. I do not scoff at them, No, They are the product of injustices. Madoff and his pozi scheme, billions of dollars and many left in the poor house. 150 years to do in jail? Is that any way to spend 40,000 dollars more a year to keep him there? Not to mention all the money wasted on his trials. No, I do not think this is just. Some people have died as a result of this man(monster) and that changes the crime. (imoho) Why it wasn't even one week after Obama announced that the banks were not going to have their way with people, when all of a sudden the fees doubled in BoA. ??? Way to go Mr.O. that ought to show em. The thing is, why spend their money helping the poor or near poor, when there are wars to be funded. How about this, every year we are engaged in Afghanistan, we are paying big bucks. The population in Afghanistan is about 36 million. We have about 60 thousand US soldiers there and about 40 thousand allied troops. A quick calculation would tell you that even with 200 thousand Afghani troops, the total is 300 thousand against 25 thousand Taliban. That is for every troop there, a ratio of one Taliban hiding among 1400 Afghan person. They would have people believe that $0 thousand more US soldiers would make a difference, It won't. The only thing it will change is our commitment to keep sending in troops for ever and ever. It would take many lifetimes to defeat those odds. Short of nuking the entire country. 600 thousand troops would still make it one for every 700.(needle in the Afghan stack). Why are we poor? Because someone up in Washington refuses to listen to its people. Only at election time, do they divert their attention, and then just momentarily, as though with no patience for the results, to hurry up and reelect Him/her. Social Security is at a dangerous time now. How would you like to be a young American serving with honor, defending our way of life and some paying the ultimate price.
To then come home be denied services because our economy cannot afford it? How would you feel if you were wounded in battle and there was no hospital benefits for you? Next you begin to age and have worked and payed into a system guaranteed to at least be there to help you (unless you are wealthy)in your time of retirement, and find out that the younger generation of thinkers believe it to be social welfare? This is by far the longest I have ever ranted. I want to make it complete for me and for some others. The sickness is selfishness, the cure has not been invented yet.
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@49 frayedcat
Hovervilles in Europe? There are plenty of them. At least in Eastern Europe. What I was referring to was something else. Shelters are not hovervilles.
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Please tell me, that this time the moderators are going to send me an email to explain the reason for my post being referred?
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52. At 10:41pm on 29 Oct 2009, MattofNJ wrote:
The middle class is by far the greatest good the US has given to itself and to the world. Without it, it is doubtful that either of you would have the ability to post the nonsense that you do.
First, no one personally insulted you, so there is no need for you to insult dceilar or myself. Unless, of course, you are feeling defensive and have no better argument than, "We're not just more deserving than you, we're... We're smarter than you! And.. And... We let you work for us and give you money too!"
and MattofNJ @55
As to whether middle classes existed before the USA was formed, I am sure you are correct. I said and I meant that the US middle class, especially post WWII, has been the force for the greatest good in the US and maybe in the world.
The only reason they were the greatest force for anything is because they endured the hardships of the Great Depression followed by the Second World War and voted for progressive politicians like FDR, Eisenhower, Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson.
Our parents and grandparents, of whom I spoke in an earlier post, understood that social programs, like the WPA, Social Security, the GI Bill, Medicare, free college tuition, public health care and housing gave them a leg up the ladder of success. Some of their offspring, born into the middle classes - and who now feel entitled to what they never earned, but merely enjoy by dint of their elders' great suffering, hard work, sacrifice and painfully learned wisdom - chose to pull that ladder up behind them. They haven't done any good. In fact, they greedily helped trashed the country and the world's economy and now want a bit of tea and sympathy, poor lambs. Except, like willing sheep to the slaughter, they followed their Pied Piper Reagan into deregulated Trickle Down disaster - while the rest of us, watching in horror from our place of economic subjugation, begged them to stop.
I don't hate the existence of the middle classes. I merely despise this generation of them. Fat burghers sitting on their behinds, moralizing and telling others how to live their lives, so they too might be successful. And all the while making certain the helping hand that was there for them is snatched away from those who came after. Their hypocrisy stinks and is deservedly condemned.
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@60 frayedcat
“I wonder if the poor aren't really the greatest force for good”.
Sorry to interfere. Your starting point seems to be good, but not enough. The human nature is more likely to prefer an easy life. That requires a hard work and….some lucky opportunities.
“I mean if the greatest good equals charity (Corinthians).”
Our Lord (J.C.) did teach us to be charitable. But your suggestion that the greatest good equals charity seems not to be a convincing argument. The greatest good implies many other things too, like honesty, abnegation etc. The charity is not a motivation for hard working, at least for the crushing majority of the human beings.
“Then the more poor there are, the more people will have inspiration to work hard (for peanuts).”
What a great illusion… We called it communism. It collapsed.
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@60 frayedcat
“If the greatest good is being rich, then the more middle class there are, the more likely some of them can get a bit more and be rich.”
This sounds good. I agree on one condition. Governments should intervene each time when it is necessary in order to avoid the disastrous consequences of policies that a handful of highly placed and good intended gentlemen introduce in order to get richer at our expense, I mean at the expanse of the middle classes. We call such government action a socialism.
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Just in case my email is [Personal details removed by Moderator]
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You are messing with those moderators, ranter22,
making them work for their money...
one wonders if its intuition, a process with a list, or just the person or all 3, but yes one has to ...
hmmmm be surprised sometimes, by them.
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I think tomorrow the news will say "moderators missed 150 posts" say they were on the laptops lodding program.?
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To me, the greatest thing about Socialism in the form of Government Agency workers and Service is that they have to compete with Non government, For profit businesses that theoretically could provide much better service at slave wages. (??)
But, it seems to me that government work is the fairest and has the most opportuniy(ies) for the worker....as long as it is financed by taxes off the capitalist quarter. BUT,
I've noticed that to work for the government now, at least, one has to be rather da*&@& good to make it ..there. Accuracy has to be 90 to 95 percent (to advance) and stress is a given.
In private industry there is some sanity but less job security (in theory).... I think future jobs available will always include for profit contract consultants trying to improve gov. functioning. but ..man, its a scary place (the dept of Treasury)
for me, myself, to work..as I work in clerical and customer service (telephones and 1040Xs -- amended returns which, who knew, was so law and accounting based) at
the IRS, is not paradise. And government work, even tho it has potential, is HARRRD.--because it competes with mainly for-profit business .... and its difficult to keep up to standards wanted by the voting tax paying public.
THAT is what I think of Socialism. Did I make my point?...socialism is hard work?
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20 minutes just to post your post!
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yeah, One does not break that egg for all the omelets in Siberia.?
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I wonder, my post, #61 was my best effort and crowning glory of a post.
The most offensive word i may have used referred to someone urinating on the picture of (JC) on Home Box Office. You may have heard the L.D. producer. Maybe 2morrow they will add my post, after landing.
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We will all soon be equal. It will be fair and equal. Everyone in soup lines and no longer any private ownership. The democrats will soon have redistributed the wealth to the poor under class and their dream will be realized. Soon the USSR will resurface as the USSA. Congrats liberals you have finally succeeded. Just like in the movie Amerika.
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Obama will go down in history as Herbert Hoover II. Hopefully a one term president. Even the moderate democrats are starting to get their dander up at our Beloved Leader. Now I am confused is that the one in North Korea or here in the USSA? Cut both from the same bolt of cloth.
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Did you say"separate but equal" the very substance and ideological premise that Fidel and Che Guevara used after liberating Cuba from complicit dictators. Every democrat nowadays has an auction and the highest bidder gets a republican(democrat reformed, and a liberal as a whipping boy)or is it the other way around?
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You guys are describing the movie 'Children of Men' In the year 2027 all foreigners are illegals.?
Wake me up when it's over. snnnzz.g'nt.
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Ignore, ignore, ignore..is my motto here (n sometimes in life)...happiness is in the forgetting..and moving on :)
And "separate but equal" only works ...with stress?..what really does separate but equal mean, I wonder?
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No economic system is perfect. Risks must be taken for progress and risk means just that: a downside is a possibility. If we're a government of the people, by the people and for the people, then why is it we give ourselves such a deplorable social safety net in all areas given the inevitability of downsides? I guess caring is so … um … devoid of celebrity, to make a play on Mr. Mardell’s topic of last Friday about America’s penchant for acting adolescent.
As Thomas Hobbes stated in his "Leviathan," in 1651, the fundamental role of government is to provide security. Then civilization can grow, otherwise, life is short and ugly. Besides security from normal law and order services, Thomas Hobbes didn't imply government is to zero out all financial risk. However, it does mean government should act as a referee and keep the economic playing field from being irrevocably distorted, especially by corporate money.
For example, American health insurance companies get away with virtual highway robbery because they have a monopoly which the government refuses to regulate. As another example, the American banking and investment interests were allowed to merge when Glass-Steagall Act was deposed of in 1999. The unregulated merger of banks and financial institutions had been a major reason for the crash in 1929. Government deposing of that regulation in 1999 was a major failure of the government to keep the economic playing field secure. The failure of Mr. Greenspan to require scrutiny of sub-prime loans when he was Fed Chairman, when he knew of the problem, allowed the predatory practices to explode and turn into negotiable bonds. That was a failure of government responsibility and common sense. Dr. Summers, President Obama's current economic adviser, successfully campaigned against regulating credit default swaps. That built the fraudulent multi-trillion dollar house of cards from under which we're all trying to dig our way out, obviously another failure of government responsibility … genuflecting to the impassioned pleadings of men obsessed with greed and ignoring the public trust.
In the field of economics and finance, it’s simple. The fundamental responsibility of government is to provide security to the people, not a risk free environment to the wealthy.
I was raised in some of the coldest parts of the U.S. and often spent winter holidays in Canada. One of the biggest differentiators between the far north and the south, the south being home to the harshest conservatives, is that in the far north, you take care of your neighbors without being judgmental. It's an ethic. Cold kills and you never know when it's going to be your turn to need help. However, the other ethic in the far north is, "If you're not going to store up nuts for the winter, just who do you think is going to do it for you?" If nothing else, harsh winter teaches you to deal with reality. The reward, if you survive, is a feeling of lusty vigor at having made it through to the luxuriant warmth of bright Sun and lushness of spring.
Those people in the shelter are dealing with harsh reality, also. They are dealing with the reality of our predatory health care system that U.S. conservatives think works so well, and the reality of needing to live frugally and put aside for difficult times. If they weren't, they certainly are becoming mature adults, per last Friday's column, something most celebrity driven, live for the moment Americans aren't. They've lost that characteristic. Somehow most of us have become too isolated from the harsh bite of reality or our trust has been betrayed, or both.
It was very astute to note what the lady from the grocery store said. Business is indeed up in the basic needs. Look closer. So are the prices. Also, notice the number of semi-trailer trucks on the road. That number is increasing, too. That, too, is a reliable trick.
On the other hand, don’t expect the thirty million baby boomers to be a lavish engine of consumption. They’re now desperate savers. Don’t expect the young-family American consumers to be lavish any time soon, either.
For most of us, facts are the new reality. For example, a month ago that was ambiguous. The added effect of H1N1 flu has reinforced the need to pay attention to facts, not glib reassurances and to take personal responsibility for yourself rather than trust others. Notice how the H1N1 news has changed. We’re now told actual details of processes, scientific evidence, the basis of statistical reliability along with admissions of past mistakes in the vaccine industry. More specifically, doctors have been saying for some time that alcohol-based hand sanitizers are only effective against bacteria but not effective against virus, meaning they aren't useful in the fight against H1N1. That’s been blurred in the media. Now, as the H1N1 episode turns into a pandemic claiming the lives of our children, that startling fact about hand-sanitizers is being stated very pointedly rather than ambiguously. You must use soap and scrub for at least twenty seconds. At this critical moment we are rejecting PR blurring. We want to cut to the facts and that means immediately. That’s going to carry over into our futures.
After every major economic downturn, there is business recovery and there are social changes. This time, the social shift is toward facts and consumer prudence.
Jumper
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79 jumper
"If we're a government of the people, by the people and for the people, then why is it we give ourselves such a deplorable social safety net in all areas given the inevitability of downsides?"
This is a very good question, to which the corporate apologists and "the government isn't competent" brigade have yet to provide a satisfactory answer ..... perhaps because the truth is too unsavoury to actually state clearly.
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Jumper
Agreed. The idea of regulation is to protect the public, not the interests of banks. It's becoming tiresome hearing a bunch of bankers blame poor regulation, and using their lobbyists to get elected officials to sprout their crap for them. This crisis is the fault of the banks. All else is folly. The end of capitalism is nigh. Some countries are indeed showing growth in their GDP, but now the real pain kicks in when working and low middle class people will have pay more tax and get less back from the State to pay for the stimulus (which the rich are enjoying). The legitimacy of the State is under threat. And about ruddy time too!
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frayedcat wrote:
#31 "nostalgia of the 1950's socialism"...YIKES.
"Because of the Cold War, McCarthyism, and dominance of the “Middle American” values, the Communist and Socialist parties virtually disappeared in the 1950s" http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1669.html
I am thankful for the progressive, reform and social rights movements in US since the 1800's....even if they were led by the GOP.
______________________-
Communism is a failed ideology in it's pure form. china has a balkanized free enterprise one, Venezuela even with oil reserves can't keep their lights on.
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25, a harsh post, but essentially true.
Many of us have been astonished as time and again, many, (or much) of what is called the 'middle class' in the US, have voted against policies that are clearly to their advantage, or have in effect voted for policies that ended programmes that their own parents benefited from and indeed, helped them bring up their kids in better circumstances. The kids who when adults voted the opposite way.
It is true that the Middle Classes in Europe have benefited greatly from social welfare/healthcare programmes, in fact it helped create much of this middle class.
And then the other big lie, doing this means America will become a sluggish, laggard economy.
Well the US is not as productive compared to other first world nations than many have been told.
Here's a quick test, look out on the nearest road in the US, start counting how many cars are German, by design but assembled in the US, or straight imports from Germany.
You'll not have long to wait and soon will have to concentrate given the numbers involved.
Do the same for American cars in Germany and it will be very different, some SUV's, the odd Caddy. But quite few and far between.
American workers are being told that the future is in 'right to work' states of the union (meaning 'no rights at work' and the state who gave a prospective company the best deal).
But, German industry has the burden of it's countries social programmes, the US has the UAW, Germany has IG Metall, no slouches union wise themselves.
The German workers have much better holidays and other benefits too.
If they, and others, can do it, why not America?
Could it be that the German financial market (which is substantial), has been far more into investment than playing a giant casino?
Meaning high quality industry has enjoyed far more investment over many decades.
(We have in the UK, the same problem here as the US, we got hit hardest too by the banker caused recession, Germany and 'shock horror', France too, have taken a lesser hit and have exited first and more strongly than the US has and the UK eventually will).
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#82 Majic
Capitalism is a failed ideology too!
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# 74 amerika_first wrote:
"Soon the USSR will resurface as the USSA. Congrats liberals you have finally succeeded. Just like in the movie Amerika."
He also compares Obama to Kim Jong-il, the Dictator of N Korea.
[In case anyone is interested, Amerika was apparently a mini-series in the 80's about the USA after invasion by the USSR. Wiki link is here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_(TV_miniseries)#Critical_reception.]
TV Guide apparently said of it, "arguably the most boring miniseries in a decade" and "ABC's Amerika tried to hold America hostage for seven tedious nights (and a stupefyingly dull 14½ hours) by conjuring up a fuzzy vision of a Soviet occupation of the U.S."
Yeah right, "amerika_first". Obama the Muslim Commie is coming to take your property, your liberty, your tinfoil hat...
{Since you think Obama is as bad as Kim Jong-il - why not move to N Korea?]
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ref #84
dceilar wrote:
#82 Majic
Capitalism is a failed ideology too!
_________________--
Another example of your ignorance
Capitalism has produced most of the advances in information, medicine etc.
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5. faeyth of Detroit
-- Goodness. Sorry dear. I hope all fares well this weekend.
Philadelphia has had it's share of Mischief night riots as well. But in recent years, Philly's been so poor that everyone else's economic woes are old news. Homeless shelters and food banks have been on overdrive in Philly for some time.
See - PA was a WWII War Machine Workhorse. We pumped oil, made steel, built ships, tools, uniforms, weapons and even folded the parachutes. Then something terrible happened. The war ended.
Since then we've been depressed, oppressed, recessed, and just generally stressed out... gradually struggling through generations of disrepair. I'm actually hoping that our economy might just be starting to turn around. We've been trying to go green for some years and might just be turning a corner... We are now a land of urban villages, lot-gardens, water barrels... and I keep seeing solar panels go up...
BTW: a recent AOL 'love-your-city' quiz placed us at America's Ugliest City! Yay! I lived in LA for a while and the beautiful people scared me. Don't they eat? I'm happy to be back in Philly. Better to be ugly & honest than pretty & self-deluded.
Anywho - Faeyth dear, may your mischief night be mild.
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Magic – So war really is a capitalistic endeavour then, since most of the modern technology can be traced back to innovations made during WWII, including an understanding of the pre-natal stages of development?
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#86 Magic
How about rocket technology, nuclear energy and such like?
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I'm late for work so I'll be brief about Mr. Mark's lovely post. Maybe I'll elucidate later.
I think we've seen a collective cry among Americans on this blog. We feel mis-understood. Our action-adventure movies were never meant to teach other cultures how we live. They were designed to entertain American theater goers. Real people don't live like that.
So, About Hope:
I believe in American Altruism.
I believe that we are well-intetioned folks who (for the most part) sincerely care. (Yes, even the bankers & CEOs.)
I also believe that stupid and even evil things can be done with kind, though misguided, intents. My daddy used to say the 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions.'
Therefore, I believe that there should be accountability for people who break laws and/or screw people over... even if they thought they were doing it for good reasons. I believe in Justice. I'm just not sure if justice always happens the way it oughta'...
I'm off to work. Late. Peace out.
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#86 Magic
Also Magic, wasn't the internet the result of a socialist style Military Industrial Complex?
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ref #88,89,91
The technolgy advances were made by private company like microsoft Oracle, Novell ecen the research was done at company labs like Bell Labs and Xerox Parc
Communsims has only broght misery and socialism primarily class war fare; whose best example is Evo Morales I don't say Chavez because he is a true dictator.
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Magic – While nicely advocating your political viewpoint, msg 92 did not really address the point I was making, computers, rocket technology, radar, parts of medicine were the result of military action with little real capitalist intention at the time. What capitalism allowed was some of those, those not still employed directly by a government body, to make a profit from these inventions post war.
Capitalism was not the driving force, survival and victory was, capitalism just profited from it.
Some forms of capitalism are morally bankrupt, like a parasite it exists more to self promote itself than those maintain it, be those people producers, merchants or consumers. A truly free market economy divorced from any government restrain would be a horror luckily none exist, outside the dreams of certain people.
You seem to be under the impression that socialism is always anti-capitalism and anti-money, which is far from the case. As for socialism is responsible for class struggle, I had not realised that the US was such as socialist country!
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"When hope is all that's left"
Another rediculous blog posting. In Haiti, Zimbabwe, and Bangladesh nothing is left but hope. But in the United States the only time there is nothing left but hope is when someone is in a coma on life support. With the greatest resources in the world by far, there is always hope where there is life. I think it was Bernard Baruch the great financeer who went broke eight times before he became a very wealthy man. There are always opportunites in America. That is what the government's job is, to create the conditions necessary for new opportunities to arise. Make-work unproductive government jobs which is what socialist countries create as their answer to unemployment may be a short term solution to put money back into people's pockets but the long term solution is to give the private sector incentive to create opportunities that generate wealth in America for Americans. During the past decades, the government has created conditions which have provoked private industry to export those opportunities overseas allowing private industry to circumvent hard fought hard won labor, environmental, and consumer protection laws that took over a century to attain here in the US. What is needed is to create conditions to force industry to bring some of those opportunities back to the US. The way to do that is protectionism, to make it more expensive to export jobs than to keep them here. The assertion that Smoot-Hawley somehow contributed to the great depression in the 1930s or made it worse is a pack of lies economists have used to justify this export of jobs. It didn't matter when there were more than enough jobs to go around for people in the US who wanted to work but it does now. It is time for the US government to shut the door on imports, to tax them into uncompetitiveness and out of existance and bring the work back where it belongs, here in America. This will be done in many ways including one step President Obama has taken already, taxing foreign profits of American corporations in the year they are generated no longer allowing tax on those profits to be deferred indefinitely through re-investment abroad. Then companies like GE can decide if they want to be American corporations or Chinese corporations. Industrialists will scream like Banshees that the government is destroying their profit making ability but that should fall on deaf ears in Congress. And it would if Congress weren't so corrupt where our representatives who are supposed to represent American people are paid off by large corporations for quid pro quo favors. Isn't that how the financial crisis came about in part in the first place. It is time for Americans to hold their representatives feet to the fire with a stern warning that if they don't act on Americans' behalf for a change, they will not be re-elected.
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Dearest Magic & Dave (directly above):
The Capitalism v. Socialism economic debate is a Red Herring. The crux of our issues are less about macro-economic and international governance than about human nature in the information age. Srsly.
Of course invention follows war. Necessity is the mother of invention. In wars, people have needs. Urgent needs. And so, they tend to get creative.
The cold war drove invention, because it was a situation of international competition. Competition is good for invention.
[BTW: Go Phillies. We are not yet beaten.]
Now, what went wrong with our past almost-decade-of-war? Why hasn't our current war situation driven the US into positive economic growth and gloriously imperialistic national pride?
Why? Because War Sucks.
With the information age, has come the era of the Global Village. Tribal peoples of West Africa are now my brother. We are one. War is bad for the brotherhood of humankind. Popular Culture believes this now.
Therefore/Hence/IMHO: We (the US) entered these wars because of many wrong, bad, silly and perhaps even selfish reasons. Then, we found out we were stuck. Oops. Too deep to climb out, too proud too retreat.
[BTW: I believe that Obama is trying to un-stick us from this almost Scottish Curse to which we have screwed our anger. Lovely. Give the man a prize... oh wait! He's already been given one! Lovely.]
So there you have it folks:
-- I HOPE that in future ages we will work towards the kindred of humankind rather than seek death of others for the sake of self.
-- And HOPEFULLY, technological innovation will continue, even if we all just get along. The dark ages (a time of stagnant peace) didn't sound very fun. It's a good thing for Europe that ya'll invaded those Ottomans. They made good medicine and had yummy spices.
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Dear 94.MarcusAureliusII:
I appreciate your sentiment.
BUT - there are people in this First World Country living in Third World Conditions. Sorry. But, they are here.
A friend once went to work with Mother Theresa. When she informed the great woman that she was from Philadelphia, Mother Theresa paused and said. "You know, there are a great many poor people in Philadelphia..."
Aha... right. Got it.
My friend now lives in a tiny house, lives 'common-purse' with some like minded neo-monastics, and spends her time trying to provide safe places for impoverished children.
It's true. We got po'folk. I've had broken-hearted social workers tell me that families fed their kids pet food because it was all they could afford. Meanwhile, I've had friends come back from Haiti and tell me that there are small farming villages that are living fairly well. They may not have access to any modern technology, but so what? They can fish and grow vegetables. (not everyone in Haiti is so blessed. I know.)
There is Poverty. Real Poverty. Here. In these 50 States. It's just hidden because we're kind of embarrassed about it.
I'd like to point out that there are also homeless men in Moscow. I'd like someone to show me ANY city without homeless people. Dare ya.
*Sigh*
Go Phillies.
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"Communsims has only broght misery and socialism primarily class war fare; whose best example is Evo Morales I don't say Chavez because he is a true dictator."
Dear gherky. you are incredibly silly most days. and still today you do not disappoint.
I think you will find that with socialism and communism there is a common precursor.
that is not communists and socialists believe it or not.
They tend to come in as a reaction to something.
Normally that something is incredible disparity in wealth and an utter disregard for fellow citizens.
Show me the communist country that didn't have some of that going on before they became communist.
Those cheap whore houses and local economic enslaved populations generally tend to see that they are getting a raw deal. that maybe they should do something.
To ignore the extreme wealth of the few that drove the many to rebel is as silly as is gets.
people living prosperous capitalist lives are unlikely to go for socialism in any form.But when it goes belly up with an economy and the rich just keep taking more things can happen.
We will see how long before the rich realise this in the states.
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26 How un trollish of you.
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Marcus – You old socialist you, I thought you believed in the free market and capitalism, not government backed protectionism! Yes, I imagine capitalism being hemmed in by a strong central government would do the US the world of good. Force those corporations to up their wretched capitalised ideals, American businesses should be forced to employ only American citizens. Close the doors to foreign competition by putting in place trade tariffs. Actually why not go that step further and nationalise foreign businesses operating in the US?
I am sure the patriotism of US companies would ensure that they made losses to keep the new American Dream alive. Also Johnny Foreigner would still buy American goods pumping money into your economy while he lost his job because America wouldn’t buy his. I mean its not as if China/India/Europe cannot produce all the goods America does and its not as if foreign companies would badger their own governments to raise taxes, if not prevent, on American imports. Hey it’s not even as if certain parts of your industry are not dependant on foreign investment.
Sounds like a fantastic plan to me, luckily I am not an American, actually it sounds a lot like economic suicide to me. Trade wars are the last thing the fragile world economy needs and rampant protectionism only ever ends in trade wars.
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Dear Philly-Mom:Why? Because War Sucks.
With the information age, has come the era of the Global Village. Tribal peoples of West Africa are now my brother. We are one. War is bad for the brotherhood of humankind. Popular Culture believes this now.
Therefore/Hence/IMHO: We (the US) entered these wars because of many wrong, bad, silly and perhaps even selfish reasons. Then, we found out we were stuck. Oops. Too deep to climb out, too proud too retreat.
[BTW: I believe that Obama is trying to un-stick us from this almost Scottish Curse to which we have screwed our anger. Lovely. Give the man a prize... oh wait! He's already been given one! Lovely.]
So there you have it folks:
-- I HOPE that in future ages we will work towards the kindred of humankind rather than seek death of others for the sake of self.
-- And HOPEFULLY, technological innovation will continue, even if we all just get along. The dark ages (a time of stagnant peace) didn't sound very fun. It's a good thing for Europe that ya'll invaded those Ottomans. They made good medicine and had yummy spices.
_____________________________----
Very naive view of the world which Obama shares.
war is necessary when faced with certain threats like the Nazis and like Islamic facism.
I hope the world can survive such a clueless man as a state senator who has no business in the oval office.
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This is my first posting, so I'll make it a quick one. In the past few days I've read most of your Euroblog and I'm very glad you've only just started this America one! I can only hope it's going to be as interesting because I thoroughly enjoy your writing style and your un-bias, objective point of view!
Cheers
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@34 (StD): "Are you planning to explain why we have been running large surpluses until this year..."
I presume you are referring to the SS Trust fund running surpluses. Right?
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34 and 102
SS does not run a surplus--its funds are banked against future obligations. Using SS funds to balance a budget is a political trick which will cause it to fail sooner that it needs to.
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The best thing the US, UK and others can do is not to take the path of socialism but the path of fair but stern law enforcement towards Wall St, lenders and the real estate industry. Many, many felonies were committed during the course of the false economic boom. Many can argue for a generation about whether the stimulus package was needed and how much, but no one can argue that the the law breakers who committed fraud, stole millions and billions and such should be punished to the maximum and their entire personal wealth used to pay for the social programs that are helping out regular people.
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ref #97
Dear gherky. you are incredibly silly most days. and still today you do not disappoint.
I think you will find that with socialism and communism there is a common precursor.
that is not communists and socialists believe it or not.
They tend to come in as a reaction to something.
Normally that something is incredible disparity in wealth and an utter disregard for fellow citizens.
Show me the communist country that didn't have some of that going on before they became communist.
Those cheap whore houses and local economic enslaved populations generally tend to see that they are getting a raw deal. that maybe they should do something.
To ignore the extreme wealth of the few that drove the many to rebel is as silly as is gets.
people living prosperous capitalist lives are unlikely to go for socialism in any form.But when it goes belly up with an economy and the rich just keep taking more things can happen.
We will see how long before the rich realise this in the states.
__________________________--
As usual Fluff brain (or marbles) you miss the truth. the people who benefit from socialism are the leaders. The people get some token thing and they assume their life is better.
Columiba, and Chile are far more progressive countries and as a whole the people are not brutalized like opponents in Venezuela and Bolivia.
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Just a thought,
I wonder what would be the outcome if country A exports to country B only to the value that B imports from A?
Would it help stop an unfair advantage if B was commie/capitilist, with artifical low currency and wages?
And another thought,
The US broke the USSR by keeping arms spending high.
The USSR, with a poor and shrinking industrial base eventually could not afford to compete, so fell by bankrupting itself.
Is China being very astute in using the same tactic against the US?
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Greg00m #104:
103 posts in, yours makes the most sense. We were a nation of laws. We need to get back to being a nation of laws. And a nation that takes personal responsibility, and also has compassion and empathy, not greed as the driving force.
I am extremely amused about what people are opining is the definition of American middle class is. I consider myself middle class, yet unlike some who wish to stereotype us, I do not put more money on my credit card then I can pay off the next month. None of my income is considered disposable until all the bills are paid, and groceries are bought. And there is not a lot of disposable income left after obligations. I've always lived within my means my entire working life. I've lost jobs, and worked extremely hard to find another one as soon as possible. My spouse has been laid off twice in the past 5 years, and has found employment within 90 days both times. Self-motivation and personal responsibility IS hard, but at the end of the day, I'm a lot happier being self-sufficient than dependent on the government.
I digress. I agree we do need to punish the Looters, and bring American industry back to America, to employ Americans again. The best gift we can give to the unemployed is viable work, which will give them back their dignity.
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Philly-Mom;
"there are people in this First World Country living in Third World Conditions. Sorry. But, they are here."
You only say that because you haven't been to the third world. Go look at the small towns of Mexico and you will understand why people would leave their home and families to risk their lives in a place where they know they will be exploited, have no rights, don't even speak the language and know they will be hated. But they come by the millions anyway because that is better than really starving to death where they are. Or go look at the shacks on the sides of the hills around Caracas and you will know why Hugo Chavez won the election. You should have seen Grenada a year after the invasion. I saw all this but there is even much worse all over the real third world. It is heartbreaking but the more lives we save, the more children they breed and the problem only continues to get worse from one generation to the next. For all the hype about China, why do you think so many of them pay snakeheads to get them out knowing they will be risking their lives? Poverty by American standards is not the same as poverty by the standards of other countries. Western Europe has escaped poverty to a degree partly on the backs of American taxpayers and workers and partly by mortgaging their future up to the hilt. At the very least we should throw that monkey off our backs now that it can walk on its own. That is long overdue.
DRMu
I do believe in private capitalism but free trade is not fair trade. Not when $30 an hour labor has to compete with $30 a month labor. Not when countries like China have no environmental laws, minimum wage laws, child labor laws, occupational health and safety laws, ignore them if they do, and have no remedies for people injured or killed in unsafe jobs. Americans should not have to compete with that. America survived just fine before the world was globalised.
In a world of trade wars, countries who are net importers will benefit. At least their workers will benefit. More jobs at home will be gained than lost. Industries which were once highly Americanized like consumer electronics that have fled could be brought back again. American will pay for expensive domestic products competing against even more expensive foreign imports with a lower standard of living. That is as it should be because Americans have been living far above their means for far too long. Time for the credit economy to be reigned in. As for what the consequences are for the rest of the world, I don't care. That's their problem. They don't seem to worry much about what taking American jobs does to America until they have nobody to export to because Americans are broke.
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104. greg00m wrote:
"The best thing the US, UK and others can do is not to take the path of socialism"
Once and for all can we get in clear that no one has proposed the path of socialism .... NO ONE!!!!
The word only cropped up as a "fear stimulant" in the republican campaign attempt to scare people away from Obama.
There are no socialist countries in Western Europe ... FACT.
Socialised medical and welfare systems within a functionning capitalist market economy does not equal "socialism". It equates with a more moral approach to the less fortunate in our midst.
So let's stop talking about any of this as socialism because it's not.
Incidentally, when Bush bailed out AIG in 2008 at the start of the crisis we didn't hear all these cries of socialism. So stop it.
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108 marcus
"Poverty by American standards is not the same as poverty by the standards of other countries."
You are right that poverty in the US is not as bad as poverty in the developing world.
That said, considering objectively the undeniable levels of poverty in the US underclass, just how much poverty is acceptable to you in your great, number-one-in-the-world, better than Europe, can-do USA?
Your paradise seems to be selective. You said a few days ago that if you were born in the USA you had won the lottery of life ..... it seems alot of people either don't check their numbers, or have lost their ticket.
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marcus 108
"They don't seem to worry much about what taking American jobs does to America "
No they probably don't worry, but they may just catch a hint of the irony that so many large US companies have off-shored their services and manufacturing to these countries.
You made your bed, now lie in it! How long do you think GAP or Nike would last if they had to pay US wages to get things made .... imagine the choice - GAP or Armani? Can't see many chinos selling!
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Ref 102, arclightt
"I presume you are referring to the SS Trust fund running surpluses. Right?"
That was the theme I was addressing. Obviously, I wasn't talking about our recurring federal government budget deficits, mounting national debt, and the so-called unfunded liabilities.
Incredibly, the fact that our country has unfunded liabilities that exceed $44 trillion does not seem to bother anyone and seems to be perfectly acceptable to many. These markers deposited in fictional trust funds will someday have to be paid-off or most of our social programs and the services we get from our government will simply vanish.
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Dearest #100 Magic:
"Very naive view of the world which Obama shares.
war is necessary when faced with certain threats like the Nazis and like Islamic facism.
I hope the world can survive such a clueless man as a state senator who has no business in the oval office."
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Oh my. A Naive View? Hmmmm...
Not naive. Optimistic. There is a difference.
I place my hope in optimism. I make my decisions in pessimism.
I find that this simultaneously keeps me from getting screwed while allowing me to live a life of love and laughter. For the most part.
-- Perhaps I am not so naive as you might think...
Please do not call people names. Them's fightin' words, and I might forget my pacifist ideologies and be encouraged to take off the verbal boxing gloves.
So, I will be nice:
Fascism is a dirty word. It is a word that we westerners like to apply to people-we-think-might-be-evil, particularly in the realms of Religion and Politics. Fascism has a definition, but surely - if the word is being applied to Obama - than the word no longer carries the meaning I thought it did.
Finally, you discredit Obama's qualifications as president. Apparently, your understanding of national politics in the USA is as poor as your judgement. Opps. So sorry. That wasn't nice. Obama is qualified. You just don't like him. Please, let's move on.
....
Now on to other matters you blithely raise --
1. About Obama:
Will Obama be remembered in History as a Good President? Or a Baaaaaad President! Oh my. I have no idea.
Personally, I voted for him because he's black. Because he's an outsider. Because he seems to be an empathetic person and I feel we needed that more than we needed a 'Maverick'. Because he doesn't have military experience. Because I liked his political platform.
AND - Because I agreed with his campaign that positive social change can be brought to the fore when people collaborate energetically - and that people tend to do this when the are... optimistic.
2. About War:
War happens. I don't like it, but there it is. People kill each other. Sometimes, maybe, the only way to stop someone from killing people is to kill them.
But: Why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong? Hmmm...
I support our troops. I support our government.
I also believe that leaders sometimes try to elevate themselves higher than their own people, and that this sometimes involves 'silencing' people with whom they don't agree. This is sick. This should be stopped.
I wonder whether we, the USA, has sometimes done this?
I pray it isn't so.
Sorry if I was unclear before, but:
I hope that war will not be necessary.
I realize that at times, it might be.
I believe that we should take war very seriously.
I believe that we should work towards peace, even while in war.
But now, I must go back to work. The piles of paper, they call to me.
With Love from Philly,
Your MaMa.
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I agree with Marcus that comparing poverty in the USA to poverty in Third World countries is absurd, however, I find it very disturbing when I read in the newspaper that over 10% of our population is unemployed, that 33 million Americans are receiving food stamps, or that the citizens of a major city can not leave before a hurricane hits because they don't have the money to rent a car or buy a bus ticket.
The gap between the very wealthy and the poor and lower middle class has been expanding during the last decade or so, a fact that threatens one of our greatest strengths: the middle class.
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106. ukwales:
"The US broke the USSR by keeping arms spending high.
The USSR, with a poor and shrinking industrial base eventually could not afford to compete, so fell by bankrupting itself.
Is China being very astute in using the same tactic against the US?"
---------------
I've wondered this myself. Thank you for mentioning it.
-- I really hope that someone in our foreign relations offices is following all this...
On a similar note:
If Japan's economic power becomes greater than ours, will they have won the fight they began when they bombed pearl harbor? Hmmm... I doubt it, but I feel a little more comfortable now that there's been a recent party shift over there.
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Ref 106, ukwales
"Is China being very astute in using the same tactic against the US?"
In my opinion, China is a communist country in name only. Their new economic model is capitalist and they are using it very effectively against us.
Live by the sword, die by the sword seems like an appropiate metaphor...
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# 100 MagicKirin wrote:
"Very naive view of the world which Obama shares.
war is necessary when faced with certain threats like the Nazis and like Islamic facism [sic].
I hope the world can survive such a clueless man as a state senator who has no business in the oval office."
Yawn
Obama belongs in the Oval Office because the American electorate put him there by a significant margin. Get over it.
On the subject of 'clueless men ...who had no business in the Oval Office' - according to the polls they rejected your buddies GWB & Dick Cheney by massive margins. Get over it.
The Republican electorate didn't even choose your buddy Mitt as a candidate - possibly due to his blatant insincerity and relentless flip-flopping. Get over it.
The electorate rejected a continuation of Bush/Cheney in the guise of McCain/Palin. Get over it.
Obama was a State Senator. He was also a US Senator, even if not for long. But don't start letting the facts interfere with your prejudice.
The US electorate chose the relatively inexperienced Obama over the hugely experienced McCain. Partly, I suspect, because one of the most vital decisions McCain made in the campaign was who would replace him if he was elected and died or fell seriously ill. He chose Palin - whom he barely knew. And Obama is the 'naive' one!?
No doubt the electorate also considered the vast success of 'experienced' men like Cheney and Rumsfeld...
Since 'naive' in KirinWorld means having a world view rather more sophisticated than sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and repeatedly yelling 'America-and-Israel-are-always-right-everyone-else-is-always-wrong-don't-confuse-me-with-the-facts-la-la-la-can't-hear-you' - thank God for naivety.
And Magic - you can and no doubt will repeat your endless prejudices for Bush/Cheney and against Obama. It won't change anything. Least of all anyone's mind.
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Make mine another double in Dublin;
"No doubt the electorate also considered the vast success of 'experienced' men like Cheney and Rumsfeld..."
If Obama and company let America's guard down and we are attacked again, the electorate will remember the success Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Rove, et al had in preventing any more attacks on the US after 9-11. The electorate will put President Obama Inc. out of a job....if we ever have more elections after such an attack.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 119, Magic
"How long are your going to give Obama a pass and blame Bush/Cheney for everything.
The left can't admidt this man is over his head. He has apologized to dictators refuses to make a hard decision."
If President Obama is held responsible for the mess we are in because he has been in office for 9 months, does that mean President Bush is responsible for 9/11 because he was in office almost 9 months when that event took place?
Would you mind telling us when and where President Obama apologized to dictators or anyone else for that matter? What I heard him say when he went to Egypt was that he would NOT apologize for the actions and policies of the USA...
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83. At 09:45am on 30 Oct 2009, SONICBOOMER wrote:
Could it be that the German financial market (which is substantial), has been far more into investment than playing a giant casino?
The market is more than just a casiono. Read Matt Taibbi's excellent article on naked short selling and how the massive, illegal and un-policed virtual counterfeiting of stock, bonds and commodities has changed the nature of the markets. They are predatory asset stripping machines, rather than true gauges of actual economic activity.
97. At 3:58pm on 30 Oct 2009, fluffytale wrote:
I think you will find that with socialism and communism there is a common precursor.
that is not communists and socialists believe it or not.
They tend to come in as a reaction to something.
Normally that something is incredible disparity in wealth and an utter disregard for fellow citizens.
Show me the communist country that didn't have some of that going on before they became communist.
An excellent point and historically accurate! Most people forget that rebellions and revolutions are almost always caused by internal problems fueled by bad economic policy. Whatever Utopian ideal or socio-economic theory is currently in vogue at the time generally gets implemented in the wake of a political dissolution. FDR halted the rise of Communism in America after the Crash of '29 and in the midst of the Great Depression by implementing a mild form of socialism as a corrective to the damaging nature of unregulated free market capitalism, also known as Corporatism, Globalism or Fascism (Mussolini's definition of the economic theory).
105. At 6:34pm on 30 Oct 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
To ignore the extreme wealth of the few that drove the many to rebel is as silly as is gets.
people living prosperous capitalist lives are unlikely to go for socialism in any form.But when it goes belly up with an economy and the rich just keep taking more things can happen.
We will see how long before the rich realise this in the states.
You are also right, and since WWII western governments have used social justice, i.e. socialism, in various formats to keep the balance between the haves and have nots in order to prevent radical political shifts. When banking deregulation occurred Corporatism once again reared its ugly head and the balance shifted. Capitalism works, but only when tempered by social justice programs and strict regulation of the market.
The new rich never learned that lesson, because most of them never lived under a tax scheme that stripped them of 90 per cent of their earned income, or understood why they were penalized so heavily for merely being wealthy. The old money Americans and Europeans alike, didn't really get into the derivatives market, because they knew what it was and understood the danger. They know they exist on sufferance. They are allowed to retain their wealth and power because they keep the common people well bribed with social programs. The new rich, the current crop of robber baron bankers and corporatists, who think we are merely sheep to be sheared (and in good times we probably are) need to be cut down to size.
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# 119 MagicKirin wrote:
"Better Kirin land than Dublinville where terrorism is celebrated if it commited [sic] against Americans or Israelis."
I do not celebrate terrorism, whether against Americans, Israelis, or anyone else. [Or indeed, by Americans, Israelis, or anyone else.]
I've posted dozens and dozens of time over many many months on this blog, and indeed on other BBC blogs. To see any and all of my postings, you only have to click on my name. If you can show just once where I have 'celebrated terrorism ...against Americans or Israelis' please do so. If not, consider yourself revealed once again as a scurrilous, defamatory liar.
You lie. And then you lie. And then, just for a change - well, you lie again. Don't you ever get tired of your lies? The rest of us certainly do.
Coming soon - 'Lies And The Lying Liars Who tell Them - The Authorised Biography Of MagicKirin'.
Your mendacity is matched only by yout illiteracy.
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And so I see that once again we teeter on that dread precipice, about to fall, once again, into the interminable babble and bickering of the Levantine rat-hole.
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MAII wrote:
"I do believe in private capitalism but free trade is not fair trade. Not when $30 an hour labor has to compete with $30 a month labor. Not when countries like China have no environmental laws, minimum wage laws, child labor laws, occupational health and safety laws, ignore them if they do, and have no remedies for people injured or killed in unsafe jobs. Americans should not have to compete with that. America survived just fine before the world was globalised."
________
Well, yeah, you have at least half a point.
But remember that England in the industrial revolution, and America prior to Teddy Roosevelt didn't really have all that much by way of environmental laws, minimum wage laws, occupational health and safety laws, child labour laws and so on, either.
As China grows richer, public opinion will not tolerate the deaths in coal mines that are happening now - you can already see changes beginning. When China has its equivalent of the "Triangle Shirtwaist" fire, there will be more changes.
The points you make are not without some truth, for sure. But you have missed an even bigger truth:
When China joined the WTO nobody thought to insist that China (or anybody else really) not be permitted to follow mercantilist trading policies, and that China (and everybody else) be required to allow their currencies to float freely.
The gross and deliberate undervaluation of the Yuan, and the refusal of the Chinese government to allow the Yuan to move off its peg against the dollar in any meaningful way has prevented one of the key balancing mechanisms of trade from working properly. The Yuan should be worth at least 60% more than its existing exchange rate. But, then again, the social unrest in China that would result from a sudden shock re-valuation of the Yuan wouldn't be a laughing matter either.
Which, I suppose, underlines why the government of China would have been wiser to have allowed the Yuan to float freely, or, at the very least, have allowed it to appreciate relatively slowly and steadily.
Oh, and the American economy was way, way to liberal in its approach to lending to uncreditworthy borrowers. That might have had just a little bit to do with the problem, too. Right?
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108. At 7:04pm on 30 Oct 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Go look at the small towns of Mexico and you will understand why people would leave their home and families to risk their lives in a place where they know they will be exploited, have no rights, don't even speak the language and know they will be hated."
"But they come by the millions anyway because that is better than really starving to death where they are. Or go look at the shacks on the sides of the hills around Caracas and you will know why Hugo Chavez won the election. ..."
__________
I don't agree with Marcus very often, but I agree with this.
And a lot of us have ancestors who came here for very much the same reasons, under surprisingly similar circumstances.
Sometimes we seem to forget that.
Give us your hungry, your tired, your poor...
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121. At 10:34pm on 30 Oct 2009, Gavrielle_LaPoste wrote:
83. At 09:45am on 30 Oct 2009, SONICBOOMER wrote:
Could it be that the German financial market (which is substantial), has been far more into investment than playing a giant casino?
The market is more than just a casiono. Read Matt Taibbi's excellent article on naked short selling and how the massive, illegal and un-policed virtual counterfeiting of stock, bonds and commodities has changed the nature of the markets. They are predatory asset stripping machines, rather than true gauges of actual economic activity.
________________________________
"The market is a racket. And those traders are all crooks."
- Al Capone
He should know
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Thank you Mark, for a great piece of journalism, and for stimulating one of the best discussions I have seen on the 'net.
Watch, now. The people are beginning to speak out about the health care reform they need to see, more and more clearly. Everywhere I look the discussion is getting more clear. It is very hard to declare that drug pricing is justifiable, that medical insurance is fair or competitive, that we as a nation have the medical care we are paying for - after all, we are told it is the best in the world but what good is that when so many of us know we don't have access and can't afford it, or could loose it next Friday when we loose our job?
The outrage has not died down over the hundred million dollar bonuses that continue to be paid to financiers by crooked institutions using our money, while we are still loosing our jobs, houses, and insurance, and no none has bailed out our losses.
It's on every analysts lips - the recession will not really end until the American consumer opens his and her wallet and buys a big Christmas, a bigger house, and a new car. Our jobs will not come back until we get out there and spend. Employers are doing all they can to avoid hiring new permanent employees (my employer is putting on temps right and left) until they feel confident that the consumer market is strong again. But we need those good jobs to feel we can again risk buying on credit provided by an different band of rapacious predators. But what is not on anyone's lips is any idea how to stimulate real jobs for Americans. We may not be the masters of the financial markets, at least not any more, but we are the key to everyone's present and future success. What gives?
Local action is the most effective and the most efficient. People helping their neighbors, as your blog so eloquently showed. Small businesses that make the jobs appear, and sustain local retailers, customers, and yes, bankers. Local retail purchases are suddenly the stuff that makes the world go around. They cut down the transportation cost to a minimum. Cut out the overwhelming burden of corporate bureaucracies. Keep the profit in the community, city, state, or at least in the country.
The federal government really is the least efficient, slowest, and most likely to become corrupted of all systems to deploy when a problem appears. Corporate solutions always have another motive, and so many have demonstrated that improving conditions on the ground for the consumer or the victim or the citizen rarely or never rank high on that list.
Republican and Democratic leadership that gives the appearance of belonging to corporate interests is beginning to feel real heat, at last. The lie has been put to the claim that what is good for the corporations is good for the country. They had it their way, and look around you today. Until jobs come back and we feel secure again, the heat will stay on. Any leader who can make things happen that actually do help the taxpayers and working public, will have a future.
Candidate Obama promised a lot of change. The steam is beginning to build pressure in that kettle. The Democratic congress' approval ratings are the same as the Republican party's - about twenty percent, as low as they have been. They have not yet shown the public that they are listening to us at all.
Just watch.
KScurmudgeon
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In the words of Sir Winston Churchill "When you are young and are not a liberal, then it proves that you do not have heart, which is a terrible shame. However when you are middle aged and not a conservative, then it proves that you don't have a brain, which maybe worse"
God Bless you Sir Winston. Truly wisdom to live one's life by. I just wonder how the liberal left in UK will fare after the Tories come to power and the mid term elections in the US when the Democrats are swept from power (funny how democrats and appartchiks souns almost the same). A conservative house and a democrat president, not too bad of an arrangement. Pelosi will no longer be Speaker of the House and the little princess from the bay area will lose her post and have to go sit in the back rather then the seat next Joe Biden (personally my favourite democrat.
One more thing before I go. The poor down trodden and under privelged, pull yourself by your own boot straps rather then asking us taxpayers to bail you out. Plenty for a hand up, but not one plug nickel for a handout
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I was told last night that in each of the six precincts in my city, there are about 25 officers available at any one time. I was told that neighbors need to look out for each other, and that to be effective at least half of the households in a block need to be actively concerned, looking, and ready to call for help for each other.
The reason is simple - if only one or two are looking, they cannot see it when it happens. When half or more are alert, someone will see it, call it in, and the bad guys will move somewhere else. The police may drive down our block once a day, and it maybe they will not.
The most effective solutions are local, and this is the simple reason. A national police force? And how many hours of each officer's day will be spent on paperwork? How many officers do nothing but push paper? How many really are not motivated to care about this block? We live here, and we must care.
The same principle applies to every need, to every opportunity, I think. Health care, homelessness, quality products of every sort depend on finding people close to the job to do the job, people who care about the outcome on the ground.
KScurmudgeon
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Obama won the election becuase a tide in history and John McCain for all his honor and dignity, could not bring himself to wage an effective campagin again forces well beyond his capabilities and McCain was old and tired. GWB did the same to the GOP that Margeret Thatcher did to the Tories. No one was capable to chanllenge his authority. Like him or not, GWB was a leader that did not rule by polls or public opionion, but governed by what he determined was right fot the security of the US. Obama is no leader and never will be, becuase he is run lock stock and barrel by the Chicago Machine. Can you say Blago???
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Amerika First -
How would you give that hand up? How would you put the country back to productive work?
KScurmudgeon
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119 gherkin
"Better Kirin land than Dublinville where terrorism is celebrated if it commited [sic] against Americans or Israelis."
You never mentioned a problem with those that bombed and terrorised in N.Ireland.
A bunch of terrorists that the americans called "freedom fighters" right up to sept 11.
Typical hypocrite .
AmeriKKKa last.
what a troll.
Prefers dictatorships to democracy.
then thinks others undemocratic.
Not really that interesting.
105 gherky
Dear gherk. so pleasant you are but so silly again.
"As usual Fluff brain (or marbles) you miss the truth. the people who benefit from socialism are the leaders. "
No I'm not marbles so keep guessing.
Oh sorry I forgot.I made no comment on who benefited from socialism . I did try explaining the sort of conditions that lead to socialists winning a country.
Carry on Ignoring it. it may Never effect you, being as america will never be a socialist (or even a nice) state.
The truth dear gherky is that too much greed encourages the meek to inherit.
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"war is necessary when faced with certain threats like the Nazis and like Islamic facism."
That,gherky, is what your opposites in the talliban say about your crusades.
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Capitalism and china being maybe better at it than ameeriKa.
"live by the sword die by the sword"
that is an appropriate saying.
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121 grav la post.
cheers for pointing out the validity of my comment to gherky.
I would note though that the comment you attribute to the gHerkin was in fact my comment.
Maybe Gherky had quoted it in one of his.
He does this a lot because it sometimes confuses people into thinking that gherky has made a sensible comment.
;)
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On relative poverty in the west compared to the third world.
there is no comparison. . but then for a few it is exactly the same.
No where to live and arrested for sleeping. in most third world countries it is not a crime to sleep outside of your own house.
in many states and towns in the USA it is.
(sure some will claim a quick beating in order to get a cold cell room is great way of helping correct social imbalance).
Remember that next time you go past the till and there is a donation for your local food bank or shelter.
Next time you are asked if a little more tax paid would be OK with you.
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rf #133
Fluff brain how many centuries ago was the crusades. America did not even exist in it's present form. that is lie blaming current leaders in Japan for Pearl Harbor. But that is what Islamic facists like the tailban,Iranianan mullahs and Palestinians terrorist do to justify their war crimes. They find naive people like you to support them.
As far as taxes we pay enough and too much is wasted.
In Mass they have to fire a number of state workers, but the gov a crony of Obama's kept their just created jobs. Just like Michelle phony hospital job they will be gone when he is voted out in a year.
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130. At 05:01am on 31 Oct 2009, amerika_first wrote:
"Obama won the election becuase a tide in history and John McCain for all his honor and dignity, could not bring himself to wage an effective campagin again forces well beyond his capabilities and McCain was old and tired."
"GWB did the same to the GOP that Margeret Thatcher did to the Tories. No one was capable to chanllenge his authority. Like him or not, GWB was a leader that did not rule by polls or public opionion, but governed by what he determined was right fot the security of the US."
"Obama is no leader and never will be, becuase he is run lock stock and barrel by the Chicago Machine. Can you say Blago???"
_________
Wow.
It's hard to know where to start.
About 15 years ago aboriginal protesters took over and blocked a major road bridge across the St. Lawrence at Montreal. If you watched the news in English, and then watched the news in French, the coverage was so polarized that you would hardly have guessed that the French and English reports were covering the same incident.
This posting reminds me of that.
I make the following comments as someone generally well to the right of center on the political spectrum, and who rather liked John McCain.
There was an election last year in the US. A relatively young man out-campaigned first the redoubtable Hilary Clinton and then John McCain, himself a tireless and effective campaigner. The winning campaign was remarkable for its focus and its even-tempered self-discipline. Some people might think that in itself was a stunning double demonstration of leadership skills.
American voters have the right to throw out bad governments. That is what they did. That's the idea of democratic elections.
John McCain lost not because he did not campaign effectively, but because he was saddled with the legacy of an administration that inherited a large surplus and turned it into the (then) largest deficit in American history; had the world's great sympathy and good will yet managed to throw it away and become reviled near and far; mired the country in not one but two very difficult overseas conflicts; and then "led" the country into the worst financial crisis the world has seen in 70 years.
John McCain ran out of both money and energy trying to do the impossible. The startling thing about the election is not that John McCain lost, but rather that he did so well carrying that particular millstone.
What channel were you watching?
To suggest that the disgraced former governor of Illinois somehow controls the Obama administration "lock, stock and barrel" is so bizarre as to defy reason. You just can't argue with that kind of logic. It was precisely because the Obama folks were not controlled or influenced by this man that he has now been driven from office. By any chance, have you lost your medication?
And as for George-the-Younger being a leader, my heavens, how laughable. The decision maker in that Presidency was the Vice-President, not the President. Even if you knew nothing else, you could tell that just watching the body language at the Obama inauguration.
No, I followed that news in many, many sources, and the events of last year's election are well nigh unrecognizable in posting 130.
Your views, seemingly unattached to reality, are regrettably symptomatic of what is destroying the Republican party, and causing enormous harm to the nation. Republicans used to be rational. They used to run businesses; be members of the Chamber of Commerce; go golfing on Sunday mornings. The GOP used to represent people of intelligence and ability. Now it is dominated by the self-indulgent ravings of an uneducated lunatic fringe.
And, with such irony, to echo the name of the America Firsters and Alf Landon, a bunch that pretty much defined what it means to be on the wrong side of history, in the darkest, most narrow-minded days of the Republican party.
Again, what channel were you watching?
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Gherkin You are that unintelligent or do you smoke crack.
The people in the tribal area have news. they can see the american leader saying crusade.
that part gets repeated.
"Crusade. I remember a momentary feeling of vertigo at the President's use of that word, the outrageous ineptitude of it. The vertigo lifted, and what I felt then was fear, sensing not ineptitude but exactitude. My thoughts went to the elusive Osama bin Laden, how pleased he must have been, Bush already reading from his script." ( http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040920/carroll ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsjgjM56HRw
Bush DID say crusade. the WORLD heard it.
we say that ahmadinnasbad says"I will destroy Israel"
Despite there really being NO direct translation of his words to show me I keep hearing the repeated lies and we know the trouble that gothim in.
we can reasonably assume that our presidents Crusade comment was not missed by the talliban.
Will you ever get a point or make a point that is valid or do you rally like seeming a fool.
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ref #136
fluffytale wrote:
Gherkin You are that unintelligent or do you smoke crack.
The people in the tribal area have news. they can see the american leader saying crusade.
that part gets repeated.
"Crusade. I remember a momentary feeling of vertigo at the President's use of that word, the outrageous ineptitude of it. The vertigo lifted, and what I felt then was fear, sensing not ineptitude but exactitude. My thoughts went to the elusive Osama bin Laden, how pleased he must have been, Bush already reading from his script." ( http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040920/carroll ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsjgjM56HRw
Bush DID say crusade. the WORLD heard it.
we say that ahmadinnasbad says"I will destroy Israel"
Despite there really being NO direct translation of his words to show me I keep hearing the repeated lies and we know the trouble that gothim in.
we can reasonably assume that our presidents Crusade comment was not missed by the talliban.
Will you ever get a point or make a point that is valid or do you rally like seeming a fool.
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___________________________--
Fluff Brain or Marbles I am so much wiser than you are about the world it is even funny. They are people here you can disagree with but have argue point but you are not one of them.
You Dunlin idiot and Simple Simon have the same points
bush/cheney are always evil
Obama can do no wrong
To criticize Obama makes you a racist
Terrorism against christian and Jews is historicly justified
left dictators are misunderstoond
I suggest you go back to Nicholodean and watch that programing which is closer to your sophistication level
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#137 Magic
You Dunlin idiot and Simple Simon have the same points
bush/cheney are always evil
Obama can do no wrong
To criticize Obama makes you a racist
Terrorism against christian and Jews is historicly justified
left dictators are misunderstoond
And your points are:
Chavez and Co are always evil
Obama can do no right
Criticise Obama for being a racist
Terrorism against Arabs is historically justified
US supported dictators are misunderstood
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Ref 137, Magic
"bush/cheney are always evil
Obama can do no wrong
To criticize Obama makes you a racist
Terrorism against christian and Jews is historicly justified
left dictators are misunderstoond"
I noticed you did not counter any of the assertions made by Fluffy, just the usual pity me and I am better than you argument...
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Ref 135, interestedforeigner
Excellent analysis, but I would like to point out that many of us voted for Obama because we were impressed by his education, vision, poise, and the direction he articulated during the presidential campaign.
Unfortunately, he has embraced his predecessor's Iraq and Afghanistan's policies (he actually escalated the latter), and has demonstrated too much deference to the right wing on the closure of Gitmo to avoid a political backlash from a segment of our society that lives in constant fear of being attacked or dying.
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ref #138 and 139
I did not think I had to refute Iran's threats but here you go
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/iran-threatens-israel-with-destruction-in-11-days.html
In regard to dec comments
Chavez and Co are always evil
( He imprisons opponets supports FARC, intefered in the Houndoran and Mexican political process)
Obama can do no right
( I complimented him on his nadeling of the Somali Pirate situation and if Zeylia is reasonable and does not try a Chavez power grab I compliment him on that,, but everything else he has been wrong in)
Criticise Obama for being a racist
(Not sure what this means, I've never accused Obama of being a racist some of his supporters yes)
Terrorism against Arabs is historically justified
(I have criticized the terrorist attacks against innocent Arabs by the Tailban, Al Quada and Iranaina terror groups, Israel is not a terrorist group)
US supported dictators are misunderstood
(No they are criticized but tell me how many right now can you name and how can any be compared to the villany of Chavez, Mugabe, Castro and the Iranain mullahs)
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131. At 05:24am on 31 Oct 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:
How would you give that hand up? How would you put the country back to productive work?
KScurmudgeon
First of all make all states Right to Work states and second of all make any income over minimum wage to 75K per year tax exempt, reduce the payroll tax to start. Cancel all bailouts to banks and industry. Federalize their assests and sell them off to the highest bidder. They are living high off the hog at the expense of taxpayers. if they go bankrupt, so be it we have chapter 11 bankruptcy court for just the case. We should have never bailed out the auto industry in the first place. Toyota, Nissan, VW and others would have bought their assests up in chapter 11. Why do we need an amerikan auto industry when they are hard pressed to produce a product that is viable and why did ford build a state of the art factory outside of Moscow instead of investing here in the USA. Becuase their is no longer any accountability. The auto industry is great for whinning about not being able to compete on the world market and waving the flag, but I don't see them rushing to retool the plants here. No instead they want the taxpayers to bail them out. Go to Chapter 11 and have Toyota take over your assests rather then taxpayers pay for your short sightedness and incomptence.
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Ref 141, Magic
"Chavez and Co are always evil
( He imprisons opponets supports FARC, intefered in the Houndoran and Mexican political process)"
No evidence has ever been provided to prove Chavez supports FARC, although I would not be a bit surprise if he sympathizes with the political wing of that organization. Considering our record, accusing Chavez of interferring in the political process of other nations is nothing short of comical.
"Obama can do no right
( I complimented him on his nadeling of the Somali Pirate situation and if Zeylia is reasonable and does not try a Chavez power grab I compliment him on that,, but everything else he has been wrong in)"
Sounds like you have done a 180 on Zelaya...
"Criticise Obama for being a racist
(Not sure what this means, I've never accused Obama of being a racist some of his supporters yes)"
Please elaborate. Would you mind identifying the racists that support President Obama?
"Terrorism against Arabs is historically justified
(I have criticized the terrorist attacks against innocent Arabs by the Tailban, Al Quada and Iranaina terror groups, Israel is not a terrorist group)"
Sabra, Shatila, and the recent slaughter of civilians in the Gaza Strip suggest otherwise.
"US supported dictators are misunderstood
(No they are criticized but tell me how many right now can you name and how can any be compared to the villany of Chavez, Mugabe, Castro and the Iranain mullahs)"
Saddam Hussein, Batista, Perez Jimenez, Trujillo, the House of Saud, Mubarak and the list goes on...
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# 137 MagicKirin wrote
"Fluff Brain or Marbles I am so much wiser than you are about the world it is even funny. They are people here you can disagree with but have argue point but you are not one of them."
'Have argue point' - anyone know what language that is and what it means in English?
"You Dunlin [sic] idiot and Simple Simon have the same points
bush/cheney are always evil
Obama can do no wrong
To criticize Obama makes you a racist
Terrorism against christian and Jews is historicly [sic] justified
left dictators are misunderstoond [sic]
I suggest you go back to Nicholodean [sic] and watch that programing which is closer to your sophistication level"
To watch a semi-literate fool devoid of logic or honour lecture OTHER PEOPLE on idiocy and sophistication - I don't know if it's funny or sad. Both perhaps.
Yet again, for the umpteenth time, he mendaciously defames me by ascribing to me views I have not expressed.
And now the MagicKirin theme tune - that old classic - The Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel
All together now
"Lie, Lie, Lie,
Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie,
Lie, Lie, Lie..."
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unInterestingForeigner;
"As China grows richer, public opinion will not tolerate the deaths in coal mines that are happening now - you can already see changes beginning. When China has its equivalent of the "Triangle Shirtwaist" fire, there will be more changes."
This misses the point. First of all, until this happens if it ever happens, American jobs will continue to be lost to China because the very cheap and highly exploited labor there cannot be competed against in the US. Not only jobs but American technology and capital investment are being exported to China too. But even if things changed in China, those jobs, that capital investment and technology would only move to other places where exploitation is still allowed, where labor is still dirt cheap for the same reasons it is in China now.
In looking at the economies of the world, one thing overlooked is that much of the money earned by production in China is repatriated abroad by foreign investors. One industrialist said 90% of the profits leave the country. I don't know if it's really that high but the GDP numbers can be misleading. GNP may be far more indicitave of a nation's true wealth. The trillion or two trillion dollars the US government owes the Chinese government pales in comparison to the profits reeled in every year by American investments in China. The several trillion dollars of reserve foreign currency China has ammassed may loom large until you consider how far it would go to buy food, medicine, and other necessities like fuel even just the 500 million Chinese who live on 2 dollars a day or less need to have more than the barest subsistance living. What's more, the adverse impact China's mercantile policies is having on the US, Europe, and other "advanced nations" is destroying the ability of those markets to buy its exports even at cheap prices, the exports China depends on to survive. Many Chinese companies have pared back or gone bankrupt in the current recession and many workers have found themselves unemployed and unemployable because of the drop in exports. IMO the future long term outlook for China is very bleak. An aging population, an undesirable place to live, highly restrictive to ousiders bringing in an infusion of new skills, energy, ambition it is the opposite of the USA. More like Europe in some ways.
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142. At 2:33pm on 31 Oct 2009, amerika_first wrote:
131. At 05:24am on 31 Oct 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:
How would you give that hand up? How would you put the country back to productive work?
First of all make all states Right to Work states and second of all make any income over minimum wage to 75K per year tax exempt, reduce the payroll tax to start. Cancel all bailouts to banks and industry. Federalize their assests and sell them off to the highest bidder. They are living high off the hog at the expense of taxpayers...."
---------------------------------
Amerika -
I am surprised to see that we are coming from the same place - I call it populist conservatism. The little guy (under $75K per year) produces the bread and butter of the economy, and should be given every encouragement. Unless I am mistaken, the majority of taxes come from the majority of taxpayers - not the per capita majority, but the dollar majority. And the big guy should be restrained and held accountable for the way he or she wields the influence due his/her position. And I hate no longer having a usable pronoun for all of humanity.
yours,
KScurmudgeon
___________
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saintDominick wrote:
Ref 141, Magic
"Chavez and Co are always evil
( He imprisons opponets supports FARC, intefered in the Houndoran and Mexican political process)"
No evidence has ever been provided to prove Chavez supports FARC, although I would not be a bit surprise if he sympathizes with the political wing of that organization. Considering our record, accusing Chavez of interferring in the political process of other nations is nothing short of comical.
(( First how about the laptop found in reyes possenion, why do you ignore, Chavez the thug printed the illegal ballots for Zeliya and he funnelled money to the buffoon Lopez Oprador, who had never even traveled outside of Mexico))
"Obama can do no right
( I complimented him on his nadeling of the Somali Pirate situation and if Zeylia is reasonable and does not try a Chavez power grab I compliment him on that,, but everything else he has been wrong in)"
Sounds like you have done a 180 on Zelaya...
((Nope I think he tried to steal power the fact he won't run again is satisfactory))
"Criticise Obama for being a racist
(Not sure what this means, I've never accused Obama of being a racist some of his supporters yes)"
Please elaborate. Would you mind identifying the racists that support President Obama?
((Rev Wright Van Jones, Acorn head, Maxine Waters))
"Terrorism against Arabs is historically justified
(I have criticized the terrorist attacks against innocent Arabs by the Tailban, Al Quada and Iranaina terror groups, Israel is not a terrorist group)"
Sabra, Shatila, and the recent slaughter of civilians in the Gaza Strip suggest otherwise.
((Sabra is not a terrorist groups and the Gaza death despite what Goldstone and the HRC say are the results of Hamas using people as human sheilds))
"US supported dictators are misunderstood
(No they are criticized but tell me how many right now can you name and how can any be compared to the villany of Chavez, Mugabe, Castro and the Iranain mullahs)"
Saddam Hussein, Batista, Perez Jimenez, Trujillo, the House of Saud, Mubarak and the list goes on...
(( I said right now so that eliminates several and I would argure the House of Saud and Murbarak trangressions are minor to the 4 I listed)
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Speaking of the Somali pirates, what is Britain going to do about its two citizens being held captive for 7 million dollars ransom right now? It didn't do anything when its Royal Marines were kidnapped by the Iranian navy a few years ago, we'll see if it can't even handle these pirates. I know what I'd do. I'd burn down all the boats in the harbor, mine the harbor, flatten all the expensive houses around the area some of which are owned by the pirate's families, and warn that any port where pirates operated out of would get the same. I would not pay ransom.
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140. At 2:06pm on 31 Oct 2009, saintDominick wrote:
..., but I would like to point out that many of us voted for Obama because we were impressed by his education, vision, poise, and the direction he articulated during the presidential campaign.
Unfortunately, he has embraced his predecessor's Iraq and Afghanistan's policies (he actually escalated the latter), and has demonstrated too much deference to the right wing on the closure of Gitmo to avoid a political backlash from a segment of our society that lives in constant fear of being attacked or dying.
__________
Well, yes, on the first point, agreed.
Which actually strengthens my argument, because it seems to me that Obama ought to have won by an even larger margin than he did.
It is the miniscule changes in the House and Senate that really amaze me. In a Parliamentary system when the government is defeated, the swings in seat numbers tend to be large. In Canada, for example, when the Mulroney government sub nom "Kim Campbell", met its reckoning it went from 155 seats to 2. When Richard Hatfield's reign came to an end in New Brunswick, his party's seat total went to zero.
In the US you have the most reviled government in living memory, and something like 23 seats change hands.
Some landslide.
And so the "winners" lack the legislative numbers to push through their programs effectively.
You may have noted that previous postings point out the really critical need for electoral reform in the US.
_________
As for your second point, well, don't be too disappointed.
Jesus Christ himself could not have met the expectations that were placed on Barack Obama's shoulders, and, somewhat like MAII really, I found this rock-star-next-coming-of-the-messiah stuff to be way over the top. It was too much. It was embarrassing.
I didn't actually expect that much. I thought there was a fair chance he might fall flat on his face. But he hasn't done, and, so far, for the most part I have been pleasantly surprised.
The realities of power, the realization that the ship of state has huge displacement and only a small rudder, the realization that lots of problems are far more difficult to deal with than it appeared from the outside, and in particular the realization that trying to get the army un-mired from Iraq and Afghanistan is nowhere near as easy as it looks ... All of these things were pretty much guaranteed to bring people back to earth eventually.
I would say, though, that President Obama has proceeded much more methodically than any President that I remember. I do not know if he is as bright as Bill Clinton, George Bush Senior, or Richard Nixon (or Jimmy Carter, for that matter) in terms of raw intelligence, but he is certainly the most orderly and deliberate planner I remember in that office. He seems to be avoid to avoid being rushed into rash decisions. He seems to put great store in collecting really bright people, and then having them lay the groundwork properly. He does not seem to be hung up on dogma.
Everybody knows he is a much better orator than his predecessor. What is really impressive, though, is the extent to which he appears to be a much better listener. The ability to listen effectively is a very rare and valuable skill.
Yes, it takes a little longer, and it isn't necessarily glamorous. Sometimes the Tortoise wins the race in the end.
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146. At 3:32pm on 31 Oct 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:
"Unless I am mistaken, the majority of taxes come from the majority of taxpayers - not the per capita majority, but the dollar majority."
________
I don't really understand the distinction you are drawing here, but there used to be two statistics:
The wealthiest 11 % of taxpayers pay 78 % of all taxes.
The wealthiest 6% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.
I'm not sure if this is still true.
In any case, these are the people also create virtually 100% of new private sector employment.
The idea that many taxpayers - at least 25 % of all taxpayers - should pay no income tax is probably a good one.
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143. At 2:47pm on 31 Oct 2009, saintDominick wrote:
"No evidence has ever been provided to prove Chavez supports FARC..."
I see that Magic has already responded on this point.
There is actually plenty of evidence that Venezuela not only supported the FARC, but also that there were FARC sanctuaries in Venezuela and that the FARC were receiving weapons through the agency of the government of Venezuela.
The laptop computer captured in Ecuador was a treasure trove of incriminating information, and it has led to further raids on the FARC and arrests of FARC personnel.
All of this has been widely reported in the press, so on this point Magic is correct.
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ref #149
regarding Obama listening, he seems willing to listen to foriegn leaders even adversaries like the Mullahs and Chavez.
But he won't listen to leading Republicans or allies like Israel, the U.K Czech republic.
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"Libya will come under renewed pressure to compensate victims of IRA violence later when Northern Ireland politicians arrive in Tripoli for talks.
Colonel Gaddafi's regime secretly supplied the IRA with weapons and explosives in the 1980s."
But no one mentions the funding and supplies from the USA.
WHY?
Is it there are two standards.
137 Gherkin. who is writing for you today.
Your said crusades were hundreds of years ago so I showed you Bush using the term just after 9/11. So then you spout off again.
Do try to follow the point here.
The rhetoric of Bush was as inflammatory as Ahmadinnasbad. The difference is I can hear the words of Bush and I KNOW what he is saying.
that translation of the Iranian statement is just that a translation. what is more ,a translation that by all accounts is rather bad.
leaving out the subtleties of the language.
Even then you interpret it with you usual bigot eyes and read even more into it than was said.
"bush/cheney are always evil
Obama can do no wrong
To criticize Obama makes you a racist
Terrorism against christian and Jews is historicly justified
left dictators are misunderstoond"
So onto your slanderous contribution here.
Evil is evil sorry.
Bush was evil and so was dick.
that is personal opinion.
I never said Reagan was evil , just stupid.
Obama can do wrong. look he put Hillery as the top diplomat.
That was said a while back, oh then there was the idea that cash for clunkers should have gone for old cars that got good milage to be fixed (better for the environment ) which he never took up. There are plenty others I would get around if it were not for the huge barrage of utter crap from the right that is NOT true or worthy of print.
A racist criticising Obama is best ignored because their opinion is based on nothing but the irrational hatred of others for no reason.
No one has said any7 terrorism against jews or christians is JUSTIFIED.
they have said you can expect no peace while you treat others like dog turds.
They have pointed out that there are christian and jewish terrorists.
something you keep attempting to say is not so. you spend a lot of time ignoring the Lords resistance army. or the christians that sign up to fight for their country because there are Muslims to be killed.( they do exist. Army buddies have told me. I believe them before you. they were there. They had no time for those that were there for the "crusade" and did say that those were the most dangerous to serve with.
Marcus. You were almost lucid last night. what is the chemical difference between today and yesterday?
All dictators are misunderstood. if they were understood no one would have time for them in the first place.
But you are the one that defines who is a dictator?
GW bush was a dictator.
any opposition was silenced.
No decent was allowed and people were told to live in fear if they dared oppose the american way.
despite america opposing most of their ways.
Dick And GW did VERY VERY VERY VERY little that was in any way good.
that was the aids program which they spent a lot of one . telling people condoms were no good abstinence was all they needed.
You point out ONE thing they did right.
Start two wars out of choice (see there is another crit of Obama, he says the Afghan war was not of our choosing) turned all our allies against us by telling them to go to hell.(France and Europe in general) told those running our ports they were not allowed to because they were a bunch of 'Forners' from non white European countries. (Ie we don't want Dubai ports but we don't mind P&O.
Under funding the troops he send out there under-manning the troops.
so as to not look like there was really a war on even though we were being told day in day out that we were at war.
The same bush that provide tax cuts that encouraged GM to drop the EV and build the Humming which I flip the bird to so often.
That bush and Dick that took away the americans rights to free speach and bugged the phone calls of all americans that dared speak to them from outside the borders.
(communists did that sort of thing ,But then so did we to them;)
Bush who failed the people of New orleans and them other states we forget about so quickly.
Dick who advocated torture, so that our guys could be reminded of it when they are tortured.
GW who during the war improved his Golfing handicap.
Bush who sat by as the economy was tanking saying rubbish like it wasn't happening.
Bush who put John the useless Bolton in as diplomat.(worse even than hillary and that is saying something)
Basically you failed in your attempt to show the crusades were not ancient history (or the use of the term in reference to real life battles) so you come back with this utterly slanderous comment.
You who have supported genocide by saying Nuke Iran.
You who have promoted hate at all occasions.
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"But he won't listen to leading Republicans or allies like Israel, the U.K Czech republic."
Leading republicans have acted like little brats since they lost.
they oppose every thing forgetting the support they had during the "time of crisis" that was GW start of a war.
There is still a crisis that is very much effecting the USA but the GOP refuse to play.
(Well now they are starting to realise what arses they look like they are trying to look like they are not Just blocking.)
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145. MAII
Yes, the problem of competing against low wage economies exists nonetheless, I don't disagree.
But my point was that it isn't necessarily that the Chinese are nefarious slave-labour exploiting brutes any more than our countries were at similar stages of development.
I believe that your argument ignores the fundamental truth of comparative advantage. But either point (mine or yours) would be made less harmful if China's currency were allowed to float properly.
No idea what China's trade balance is in invisibles. It may be that China is a significant net exporter of invisibles as you suggest.
Your demographic point is an interesting one. The image I have of growing businesses in China is of youth and optimism. Right now, there is hardly anything that China does not believe it can do. America used to have that positivism, too. Oddly, Chinese positivism seems much more serious and stern than the old sunny optimism of America that I knew as a child.
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IF
"The idea that many taxpayers - at least 25 % of all taxpayers - should pay no income tax is probably a good one."
I would presume the lower earners would be the one not taxed.
Those that have figured out how to live on under 10 grand a year shouldn't have to pay tax.
but they do at a higher rate than those earning the big money.
just checking, it has been suggested by a troll that only the rich should not pay taxes.
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PS gherky You say he will not listen to the UK or the Czechs.
but the Brits wanted the missile shield stopped. they could see the problems it was causing.
the czecks could see big dollars from the USA to host the shield. so they were all for it.
he may have listened to one of them.
but he could not please both.
You so silly but you are so cute with your silliness.
Just adorable, like bubble headed bimbos and miniature toy poodles and terriers.
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IF
"But my point was that it isn't necessarily that the Chinese are nefarious slave-labour exploiting brutes any more than our countries were at similar stages of development."
I would leave similar stage of development out of it and look to the fact that WE exported the jobs and created the slaves.We allowed it as much as they did.
We create wage slaves when we destroy the surroundings for our lumber.
rip ecosystems apart for dosh not caring if the locals end up with mercury poisoning( we did it to our own waters)
We allowed the trade to migrate and the pollution to the other countries but WE consume much of it....
hard to blame China at all for trying to get what we sell so hard.
A western style economy based on slave labour rates.
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128. At 04:52am on 31 Oct 2009, amerika_first wrote:
The poor down trodden and under privelged, pull yourself by your own boot straps rather then asking us taxpayers to bail you out. Plenty for a hand up, but not one plug nickel for a handout
Amerika, I want you to actually try and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. Go on. Bend down, grab your shoes, boots, sneakers or sandals and then...lift!
Get anywhere? No? Because it's physically impossible with weight and gravity working against you.
Now, what exactly is considered a hand up versus a hand out?
A hand up is a well funded public school system where children who can't afford private education can learn in safety and go on to college, becoming productive citizens and not uneducated street thugs.
A hand up is a community center where children can go for after school tutoring while their parents are at work and not loiter in the streets, where they are prey to gangbangers, drug dealers or prone to get into trouble.
A hand up is a health care system where families don't have to go bankrupt, and adults can get preventative care and medication for themselves and keep on working so they remain self-sufficient. Too many people don't get simple things like (for example) diuretics and beta blockers for undiagnosed high blood pressure. As a result, they have strokes and heart attacks that are easily avoided and end up unemployed, on disability, receiving Medicaid and needing General Assistance and food stamps. The cost of emergency care, by the way, is many times more expensive (and the chances of receiving payment for that debt far less likely so the taxpayer ends up covering the cost) than if preventative care were offered at reasonable rates to the everyone. Using emergency rooms as free health care clinics is not cost effective. By the way, are you aware that tuberculosis, measles, chicken pox and other communicable diseases are on the rise in America? That poor, downtrodden gardener, janitor, supermarket employee, Wal-Mart greeter, or video store clerk, who can't afford health insurance or to take a day off from work, can just as easily pass on a virus to his middle class and wealthy patrons and employers as he can to his poor, downtrodden fellows.
A hand up is building affordable, low income housing and getting rid of tenements and slums, where crime and disease are bred. These things still exist even in small cities, despite our best efforts to lift ourselves out of the 19th century.
A hand up is maintaining public transportation and roads, so workers can get to their jobs and remain self-sufficient.
A hand out is corporate welfare, farm subsidies for big agri-businesses and tax breaks for trust fund babies. The poor and the downtrodden aren't the problem. Giving them the means by which to climb the ladder of success will make your life less costly, safer and healthier. Giving tax breaks to the rich in the hope that their largess will trickle down to the poor, is foolish. The rich and privileged stay rich and privileged because they convince the conservative middle classes that maintaining the status quo is in their interest. They stay rich because they don't ever spend their own money. Instead, they create public programs that allow them to spend yours. Did you know that the World Trade Center was built using public funds and rammed through the New York State legislature by then Governor Rockerfeller because he owned property and businesses in the area? The "downtown" area of NYC had moved to midtown and he wanted the neighborhood where he owned property to become more valuable, so he came up with the idea of the Trade Center and then made the citizens pay for it - even though no one needed such a building. Do you think he was alone in this? That it isn't common practice to build roads and buildings you, the taxpayer, do not need, so that a businessman can increase his wealth at your expense? Why can't they build their own buildings and new roads without tax breaks and public funds? After all, they can afford it.
Stop blaming everything on the poor and underprivileged. There really aren't that many of them and with just a little help they'd be on their way to the middle classes and no longer financially burdening you and yours, but adding their taxes to the public coffers. On the other hand, watch your back when it comes to the rich and privileged. They know how to pick your pockets - legally - and they do it with a friendly pat on the back, a knowing wink and a claim of doing it all in the spirit of public interest.
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unInterestingForeigner;
Every generation there is a new kid on the block that is going to somehow outperform the US economy, it's just around the corner. Once it was Nazi Germany. Then it was the USSR. Then it was Japan. The economic superpower of tomorrow du jour is China. Europe is looking to be the one after that.
America has nearly four times the economy when measured even by the flawed concept of GDP as China with less than a quarter as many people. The quality of life is incomparable. China faces so many horrific problems that it's hard to count them all. One problem is that the entire poplulation is being systematically poisoned to death, the consequence of massive industrial polution. This is one more price China is paying for its rapid growth, a consequence of virtually no effective environmental regulations. That the contamination inevitably found its way into dog food exported to America was cause for serious alarm in Beijing because if "made in China" became synonymous with "poision do not touch or consume" China faced rapid economic demise. As an example, around 1970 a company which canned expensive soups, Bon Vivant had one can of soup contaminated with botulism that killed one person in the US. Shortly after the news hit the public the company went bankrupt, nobody would buy their products. In the future, we can expect China to suffer huge medical expenses dealing with the long term consequences of this policy, far worse than in America or Europe. India is in about the same boat.
Taking China's problems as a whole and ignoring the absurd projections of economists, it is clear that China's current rapid rate of growth is unsustainable in the long term.
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156 Fluffy.
Yes, that's correct.
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152. At 5:05pm on 31 Oct 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
"ref #149
"regarding Obama listening, he seems willing to listen to foriegn leaders even adversaries like the Mullahs and Chavez."
"But he won't listen to leading Republicans or allies like Israel, the U.K Czech republic."
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No, I think you are wrong there.
My guess is that you are very seriously "misunderestimating" President Obama. He seems remarkably shrewd for a man so young.
Ironically, in the relationships you mention, the government that seems to have a hearing problem is Israel. Western countries - not merely the US, but almost all of Israel's important western allies - have pretty much had it to the teeth with the behaviour of the government of Israel. But that government is not hearing the message at all. This is going to lead to a tragedy.
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ref #154 and 157
so says the Paris Hilton of the board, but her fluff is on the outisde your is inside your pea brainmarbles.
The fact is that Obama snubbed Gordan Brown at the U.N, intentionally did not meet with Israel on his first Mid East trip and did not let the Czechs know ahead of time that he was going to sell them out.
In regard to the Republicans they have offered major ideas including tort reform which the Dems have refused to talk about. The bills for healthcare are being done in locked rooms. And Obama has condoned the tax cheats in the Democratic party.
Bush was far more willing to talk to the Dems.
Of course he could also talk without a telepromper so much for Obama super intelligence.
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IF I was pretty sure you said that but was just checking cause the company here sometimes is easily confused;)
MA
so when considering USA Vrs China population is taken into account. But when discussing USA vrs Germany population is not taken into account.
PS USA has NEVER taken on the medical re3sponsibilities it has created for it's workers.
I fit did it would recognise that many illnesses are cause by going to work to make life better for the few.
Only now has the VA admitted that Agent orange caused prostrate cancer in the soldiers serving in Vietnam.
Only now have they started to help and give benefits to those that served active duty in the war that we used chemical weapons .
It has taken armies of Lawyers to get the asbestos industry to start paying.
The plastics used in the states are Known to cause problems that we ignore, but Europe and China are trying to deal with.
Again you almost made sense yesterday. why not take the same today.
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ref #162No, I think you are wrong there.
My guess is that you are very seriously "misunderestimating" President Obama. He seems remarkably shrewd for a man so young.
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no I did not underestimated he could run a chicago style campiagn but I also knew he knew nothing about running anything. how many nominees had tax problems? How come he didn't bother to act on Afghanastan even though the information was coordinated during the transition?
Foriegn leaders have not shown so much contempt for a U.S leader since Carter. People respect stregnth and honesty not appeasement look at the coward Neville Chamberlen
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Ref 163, Magic
"In regard to the Republicans they have offered major ideas including tort reform which the Dems have refused to talk about. The bills for healthcare are being done in locked rooms. And Obama has condoned the tax cheats in the Democratic party."
The only ideas advanced by the GOP the last 3 or 4 decades have been deregulation, tax breaks to big industry and the rich, deficit spending, demonization of government, attempts to privatize Social Security, outright lies and subterfuges to justify crusades and meddling in the internal affairs of other nations, crusades, and increase "defense" spending at the expense of social programs. Other than that, it has all been fearmongering, the demonization of anyone who does not support our interests, focus on extra marital affairs, Swift Boat, death panels, charges of socialism, appeasement, claims of non-existant apologies to foreign leaders and other bizarre charges that, in spite of lack of evidence, find fertile ground among those willing to sacrifice our economic and social security if that is what it takes to win elections. And it is all done under a mantra of patriotism!
"Bush was far more willing to talk to the Dems."
Unfortunately he lacked the ability to articulate two sentences correctly. If there is one thing President Obama has demonstrated since he was inaugurated was his willingness to appoint Republicans to key cabinet positions and high level jobs, in contrast with what Republican Presidents usually do.
In all fairness, conservatives in Congress have made recommendations regarding healthcare and energy policies, but most are focused on preserving the status quo and favor industry at the expense of our society, and saying no to alternatives is definitely not an option.
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ref #166
saintDominick wrote:
Ref 163, Magic
"In regard to the Republicans they have offered major ideas including tort reform which the Dems have refused to talk about. The bills for healthcare are being done in locked rooms. And Obama has condoned the tax cheats in the Democratic party."
The only ideas advanced by the GOP the last 3 or 4 decades have been deregulation, tax breaks to big industry and the rich, deficit spending, demonization of government, attempts to privatize Social Security, outright lies and subterfuges to justify crusades and meddling in the internal affairs of other nations, crusades, and increase "defense" spending at the expense of social programs. Other than that, it has all been fearmongering, the demonization of anyone who does not support our interests, focus on extra marital affairs, Swift Boat, death panels, charges of socialism, appeasement, claims of non-existant apologies to foreign leaders and other bizarre charges that, in spite of lack of evidence, find fertile ground among those willing to sacrifice our economic and social security if that is what it takes to win elections. And it is all done under a mantra of patriotism!
"Bush was far more willing to talk to the Dems."
Unfortunately he lacked the ability to articulate two sentences correctly. If there is one thing President Obama has demonstrated since he was inaugurated was his willingness to appoint Republicans to key cabinet positions and high level jobs, in contrast with what Republican Presidents usually do.
In all fairness, conservatives in Congress have made recommendations regarding healthcare and energy policies, but most are focused on preserving the status quo and favor industry at the expense of our society, and saying no to alternatives is definitely not an option.
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Alot of that is not true. Democrats support the status quo far more than republicans try to get rid of union perks, reform social security and other area, the Dems are the party of no.
This congress from Pelosi on down is the most corrupt in a long time, Charlie Rangel is writing our tax law while being a tax cheat. Chris Dodd gets a sweetheat loan from Countrywide and runs a banking committe.
The late Wizard of uhs, Ted Kennedy was far more unarticulate than GWB.
Obama has been incredibly polarizing and created an enemies list that would make Richard Nixon proud.
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Ref 165, Magic
"How come he didn't bother to act on Afghanastan even though the information was coordinated during the transition?"
After six years of neglect by the Bush Administration, President Obama put Afghanistan at the forefront of his Persian Gulf strategy. During his first 100 days in office, and after several reviews of U.S. policy in the region, including one by Gen. David Petraeus, President Obama authorized increasing troop levels by 17,000 soldiers.
Since then, the president and the Pentagon have been considering a request from Gen. David McKiernan for an additional 30,000 troops, which I suspect will be authorized as soon as the presidential run off is complete in Afghanistan.
I believe President Obama is making a horrible mistake, but for the opposite reason you are insinuating. The only justification to maintain - or increase - the current troops levels from 130,000 U.S. and NATO forces to 160,000 is to subdue the people of Afghanistan. It simply does not make sense to have such a large contingent of troops to engage a few dozen Al Qaeda terrorists and a few hundred Taliban fighters.
The best way to address this issue is to infiltrate Al Qaeda and destroy that organization, negotiate a peaceful settlement with the Taliban - which enjoys the support of the majority of the Afghan people - and help improve the standard of living in that country through positive deeds instead of bombs.
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The best way to address this issue is to infiltrate Al Qaeda and destroy that organization, negotiate a peaceful settlement with the Taliban - which enjoys the support of the majority of the Afghan people - and help improve the standard of living in that country through positive deeds instead of bombs.
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And what about the oil? If obama will do all these things, how will he follow the great oil trail?
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All is not just about Shelters and Hope.
It is also about the way of the few.
Interestedforeigner: Almost all our dear presidents in the USA have had the support of granddaddy or uncle Tom to help and guide them through political savvy. Generations of like minded suitors challenging one another during the day and sharing quarters at night. You understand, totally comrades. A black man in this society has very little to hang on to, in the brotherhood of cronies. So, Obama has done one thing that no other unwhite person has ever been able to do. Would, if not for the fervor and intellect of all the people who voted Him in, Still be a Senator. Saying Bush, is saying daddy help me get elected. And He did. Who would Obama had within the Washington circle?
He is the first, He has gone forward and the alternative was crystal clear. Bozo and Ugly Betty for president. True enough some form of health care needs to pass, and there is the problem we face. Not to mention Poverty, Afghanistan,
Iran, Venezuela and whatever else. There is only so much one man can do. How much was the national deficit b4 O. took over and who gave the first stimulus money?
Not Obama.
Communism, Socialism, Marxism and Capitalism, all accomplish similar roles.
In the end it is always the laymen who undergo the harshest of circumstances.
To read and interpret historical claims and accounts properly, one needs to immerse oneself in the material, with open mind ness.
Where it pertains to Cuba, go back to the late 1800 and re-read what happened and then fast forward to 1961 and then 1967. You will see that the taking of the Island was against the will of the Independent country and also Used the USS Maine as a ground for attack. The naine was later declared attacked by the US and its covert military, just to start the war. (this was admitted by the US)
The truth of it is that If it were me and I had a choice I would have wanted every thing the way it still is there. Better to be independent than to be controlled by a country that cared so little even for its own people. There was a crew of 260 maily black soldiers in the Maine , with few exceptions and none were officers, because the officers were all on leave during the attack.hmmmm.
This has been the case in Santo Domingo with the attack on the DR with the then dictator Trujillo. The Us promised support and firepower to help overthrow the dictator, and then, just like the Bay of Pigs, there was no cavalry coming to help.
Now bases in Columbia are leading the way for more turmoil. The Christian reformation movement to Christianize the Iraqis and then, domesticate or prosecute them under Christian sin law. Hell, we don’t even do Christianity in the US, what, are they going to execute the atheists?
Shelters, Soup kitchens, Churches, Missionaries, Red cross and all of our organizations are under stress and under budget, with some folding or closing their doors. Neighbors looking at one another and wondering what the other is doing wrong, many want to be first ion reporting the other offender.
There was a time when one could just pull a bag of food to bring to a needy neighbor or friend and would not alarm anyone by doing so, not now though because that would be thievery and the culprit would be fired (even if working for free) jailed or reported to the new favorite news room.
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Criminals:
Some years ago, a young man was gaining his priesthood within the Catholic church, about 500 years ago +-, It was a crime for anyone to challenge the church and consequently the state, which then were like Sonny and Cher.
(used to be) Birds of a feather. The bible was for them to interpret and construe.
Low and behold this man was named Martin Luther. So, He became a criminal because He became the Protestant that all wanted to catch and habg or burn. The Bin Ladden of that century. Perhaps not so much lik OBL, but you get the drift. Then was he a criminal? Or was he right! He must have been no criminal because many today are just like Him. It was a crime to criminalize Him. It was a crime to hang many leaders of the civil rights movement, not too long ago. As far back as 1960, in the US. It was a crime to restrict or intimidate Women, Blacks,
Recently arrived legal citizens, it was criminal to look the other way when some came for your neighbor, because He/she said good morning to a young or older white woman. It was equally a crime to shoot Kent state protesters. So many crimes, so many injustices and we still Don’t think killing Indians was a lesson to learn from. Killing Vietnamese, killing Iraquis, Killing innocent people in Afghanistan, whether or not they are part of the offending party. Denying, justifying, blaming, passing legislation and moving against, even our own David Koresh compound without just provocation. No, Yes, this could have been handled much better without the loss of life that took place.
Now criminal, give money to gambling institutions, Banks with failed agendas and questionable practices.
Who pays? No cost of living increases for the now worthless aged (who in their time contributed greatly and freely)
Fines for those who opt not to insure themselves
Higher unemployment for the happy people
Job losses and erroneous checks sent and payback required
Filthy transportation devices and rowdy MBTA drivers
Funding politician extracurricular activities with no limit to their spending, at our expense in a time of troubled economy!
Doctors who will now be authorized to administer the death wish, for the good of man.
Yes, give me your tired, your sick and your willing to die…
Why go on you know where this is going.
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Lets do the sum up:
Chavez is evil
Korea is evil
Iran is evil
Iraq is evil
Libya is evil
Cuba is evil
Afghanistan is evil
Russia is evil
Mexico is evil
Vietnam is evil
Somalia is evil
Africa is evil
France is evil
Christians are evil, except to use covertly…
…
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Who is good?
The USA is good, yay!
Lets get rid of the evils,
OH, the Pilgrims were good too
Those Indians were evil also.
God bless everyone and scrooge too.
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165. At 6:48pm on 31 Oct 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
"Foriegn leaders have not shown so much contempt for a U.S leader since Carter. People respect stregnth and honesty not appeasement look at the coward Neville Chamberlen"
_________
Neville Chamberlain was not a coward. A basically good, decent, well-meaning human being who was very, very foolish, yes. But a coward? No, I think not.
_________
Oh, Rip-van-Kirin, you must have been asleep, blind, deaf, and sealed in a hermitage for the last eight years. The most reviled US leader in my lifetime, by an order of magnitude, was Junior Bush. Nobody else is even in the same league.
For the last 2 1/2 to 3 years of Junior's term he was at best ignored (by relatively friendly allies); avoided like the plague by fellow travelers like Stephen Harper; and at other times openly mocked and ridiculed by other world leaders, Vladimir Putin in particular. I have never seen anything like it. It was extraordinary.
Jimmy Carter, a very weak President, was never openly mocked or shown visible public disdain and disrespect in this way.
Richard Nixon at the lowest self-pitying depth of Watergate was never treated this way by Foreign leaders.
What news service do your perceptions of President Obama come from?
In the news that I have seen, foreign leaders have been lining up six deep to squeeze into the same photo with President Obama. Desperate to brush the hem of the messiah's tunic and be saved ...
Touch me, touch me, Lord; Heal me, heal me, Lord!
The most laughable incident came at some meeting like the OAS, where Hugo Chavez was so farcically, desperately anxious to be seen shaking hands and fawning over President Obama.
Grown adults. Leaders of Nations. No shame, no dignity. How pathetic. How embarrassing. Thankfully, at least that fawning adulation seems at last to have stopped.
Other than the predictable hard cases (Iran, North Korea, Burma, and such like) who show contempt for every American leader, which foreign leader or leaders, in particular, have shown contempt for President Obama?
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Ref 169, colonelartist
"And what about the oil? If obama will do all these things, how will he follow the great oil trail?"
If President Obama's goal was to seize and control large oil reserves we would not be in Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia, Lybia, Nigeria, Venezuela or postponing President Bush's decision to leave Iraq next year would be our top priorities to "follow the great oil trail".
Whether people want to believe it or not, we could care less about the proposed gas pipeline through Afghanistan. We are in that country because of political considerations, not because of oil and certainly not because we want to liberate the population of Afghanistan from themselves and impose a political system that is inconsistent with their values and aspirations.
Our biggest problem in Afghanistan is that we lost the moral high ground when we changed our original goal of destroying the Al Qaeda training camps in that country and capturing or killing Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants to an all encompassing goal that included regime change, and a cultural and judicial transformation that is not only not shared by the Afghan people, but rejected outright.
The reason we can't win this "war" is because we don't enjoy the support of the population, which is solidly on the side of those fighting for the sovereignty of their country and determined to expel the invaders, the same way we would under similar circumstances.
Iraq, on the other hand, was a different matter. While $1T of taxpayer's money has been wasted with little to show for it, that little adventure has been a bonanza for corporate America...particularly our oil companies, construction companies, and "security" companies.
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169. At 9:09pm on 31 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
And what about the oil? If obama will do all these things, how will he follow the great oil trail?
He won't, or haven't you hear--? No, of course you haven't heard. You don't follow internal American politics except where it concerns you and yours. But if you had been, you'd know we were investing in bio-fuels and other products that will make America self-sufficient. No need for foreign oil. Of course, once we've turned the Great Plains into America's new oil fields and not the world's bread basket, I expect you'll be complaining that we're starving the planet - while we eat the inexpensive and well earned fruits of our labors.
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ref #171
Neville Chamberlain was not a coward. A basically good, decent, well-meaning human being who was very, very foolish, yes. But a coward? No, I think not.
_________
Oh, Rip-van-Kirin, you must have been asleep, blind, deaf, and sealed in a hermitage for the last eight years. The most reviled US leader in my lifetime, by an order of magnitude, was Junior Bush. Nobody else is even in the same league.
For the last 2 1/2 to 3 years of Junior's term he was at best ignored (by relatively friendly allies); avoided like the plague by fellow travelers like Stephen Harper; and at other times openly mocked and ridiculed by other world leaders, Vladimir Putin in particular. I have never seen anything like it. It was extraordinary.
Jimmy Carter, a very weak President, was never openly mocked or shown visible public disdain and disrespect in this way.
Richard Nixon at the lowest self-pitying depth of Watergate was never treated this way by Foreign leaders.
What news service do your perceptions of President Obama come from?
In the news that I have seen, foreign leaders have been lining up six deep to squeeze into the same photo with President Obama. Desperate to brush the hem of the messiah's tunic and be saved ...
Touch me, touch me, Lord; Heal me, heal me, Lord!
The most laughable incident came at some meeting like the OAS, where Hugo Chavez was so farcically, desperately anxious to be seen shaking hands and fawning over President Obama.
Grown adults. Leaders of Nations. No shame, no dignity. How pathetic. How embarrassing. Thankfully, at least that fawning adulation seems at last to have stopped.
Other than the predictable hard cases (Iran, North Korea, Burma, and such like) who show contempt for every American leader, which foreign leader or leaders, in particular, have shown contempt for President Obama?
________________________________________
Unlike you, I get my information from a wide range of sources including the BBC, NYT and yes Fox News which is far more relliable than CNN
For the last 2 1/2 to 3 years of Junior's term he was at best ignored (by relatively friendly allies); (How about showing some coomon respect to a man who served 8 years and had a far better resume and wisdom than Obama)
Jimmy Carter, a very weak President, was never openly mocked or shown visible public disdain and disrespect in this way.
(But he was never feared or do you think any country would have invaded a u.s embassy under Regan either Bushs or Clinton watch, but than Cater is a terrorist appeaser)
Richard Nixon even after Watetgate was regard as one the great foriegn policy President of the last 100 years
Obama's diplomacy or apology tour has brought dividens. No help from Russia and China on the nuclear threat, no quid pro from Russia for cancelling the missle defense sheild, no lessing of anti-american rehotoric from the Chavez, Morales Corea and the other latin American depsots. No overture from Arab states to Israel.
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174. At 10:27pm on 31 Oct 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #171
Obama's diplomacy or apology tour has brought dividens. No help from Russia and China on the nuclear threat, no quid pro from Russia for cancelling the missle defense sheild, no lessing of anti-american rehotoric from the Chavez, Morales Corea and the other latin American depsots. No overture from Arab states to Israel.
Well now that you have managed to insult all of Latin America on this blog, I suspect that the encore will be equally refreshing.
A side note and an understandable one, is that I understood, or rather believe I do understand despite what I think is a considerable amount of misspelled words, what you hastily wrote.
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Ref 174, Magic
"(But he was never feared or do you think any country would have invaded a u.s embassy under Regan either Bushs or Clinton watch, but than Cater is a terrorist appeaser)"
Magic, I have to hand it to you, you do have nerve! Have you forgotten Reagan's cut and run in Lebanon after over 400 U.S. marines were slaughtered during his watch? Have you forgotten Iran-Contra when your beloved President Reagan engaged in shady business deals with the Iranians to provide arms to the contras?
If you want to find an example of a U.S. President that was not feared and was viewed with a mixture of contempt and disbelief abroad, and who engaged in the ultimate example of appeasement imaginable that President was none other than Ronald Reagan.
And when it comes to daring, there are few things more perverse in our history than 9/11...which happened on Bush's watch.
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Ref 174, Magic
"Richard Nixon even after Watetgate was regard as one the great foriegn policy President of the last 100 years"
I don't know about the 100 years bit, but I agree that President Nixon deserves a lot more credit for his foreign policy accomplishments than most people give him credit for.
"Obama's diplomacy or apology tour has brought dividens. No help from Russia and China on the nuclear threat, no quid pro from Russia for cancelling the missle defense sheild, no lessing of anti-american rehotoric from the Chavez, Morales Corea and the other latin American depsots. No overture from Arab states to Israel."
I am still waiting for evidence of President Obama apologizing to anyone. Contrary to what you said, Russia has interceded and is actively engaged in solving the Iran nuclear weapons impasse. The fact that their support was given immediately after President Obama decided to end the missile deployment in Eastern Europe is not a coincidence. Enriching uranium abroad would put our fears to rest and should pave the way to cooperation and trade instead of the constant name calling, suspicions, and the distinct possibility of a major conflict in the Persian Gulf region. China's role in starting nuclear disarmament talks with North Korea immediately after President Wen's visit to Washington a few months ago is not a coincidence either.
Chavez, Morales and Correa have toned down their rhetoric, but remain intent on advancing their political agenda, which has the full support of most of their fellow citizens but is, clearly, viewed with suspicion and overt antagonism in the USA.
Both the Palestinians and Israelis remain as intransigent as ever and seem determined to preserve the status quo. Hopefully, Secretary Clinton will lean on both and read them the rights act. If they don't listen we should cut off all economic and military aid until the problem is resolved. We could use the money to extend unemployment benefits at home...
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What will Obama have to do to be criticized here, make an untimely joke about people with physical disabilities? if GWB had done that, which he never did he would have been hounded by the left wing loonies. Brag about being open and transparent then hire a tax cheat as Secretary of HHS or Treasury. This is what we object to, making excuses while criticizing his predecessor. If it is wrong and immoral, then it is immoral no matter who does it. It is another case of do as I say and not as I do. Slowly his administration will unravel and become impaled upon its holy sword of righteos indignation. As far as his speaking ability, he is able to read a teleprompter much better then any president since slick willy, but that is not the same as a great orator. JFK and RFK were great orators, BHO is not in the same league with either JFK or RFK.
As far what history will judge GWB presidency, the opionion of Vladamir Putin is of little regard as all he is as US Seanator John McCain said KGB KGB KGB. History may judge the BHO, as full of great promise, but nothing more then smoke and mirrors alot of potential but one of histories great under acheivers just as was Hoover.
A small but important point FDR did not cure the Great Depression, WWII did. His social program kept the patient from hemorraging. As Amerika's industrial might came to power to provide weapons to the UK and USSR then the great depreesion was over as went sent our boys off to war in Europe and the Pacific. But this economic mess was in the works for the last 30 years. Had Barney Frank and Chris Dodd not blocked an investigation of the banking industry by GWB first term Treasury Secretary then the financal meltdown that has occurred might not have occurred.
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174. MK
Your original statement was:
165. At 6:48pm on 31 Oct 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
"Foriegn leaders have not shown so much contempt for a U.S leader since Carter."
_________
This statement seems at odds with the facts, first because there clearly was another President shown astonishing disregard by foreign leaders, and second because, other than the predictable hard cases, there is not, as far as I am aware, a single instance of a foreign leader showing disrespect to President Obama. On the contrary, there have been embarrassing examples of leader after leader fawning over the poor man.
By contrast, Junior Bush was shown astonishing public contempt for a period of roughly three years, where the world went about its business simply waiting for Junior's term to end, ignoring his existence as if he were at best a pariah, at worst an irrelevant non-entity (which, in fact, he had become long before the end of his term).
In country after country, world leaders avoided meeting the leader of the most powerful nation on earth. They found excuses not to meet. They fobbed him off on low level functionaries. They openly ridiculed him in the press. Putin made an utter fool of him. He was very nearly persona non grata in dozens of friendly, rich, developed countries. Never before had I ever seen such a thing. Never did I imagine we would see such a thing in my lifetime.
As for qualifications and resumes, well, it is true that we have since seen a woman nominated for high office who was less qualified than Spiro Agnew, less qualified than Junior, and even less qualified than Dan Quayle (which really is saying something).
But I can tell you for dead certain that I have known, and do know, teenagers who had, and have, more and better knowledge of world affairs than Junior had prior to becoming President of the United States. He was shockingly ill prepared.
The irony here is that in the field of foreign affairs George Bush, Sr., was a genuine expert, one of the most knowledgeable, experienced and capable men ever to become President, and one who really did have a Presidential resume. (But then again, so did Herbert Hoover, who was courted by both parties.)
Barack Obama's resume on foreign affairs was thin, fair enough. I count myself amongst those who were worried about his lack of knowledge and experience in foreign affairs. But he shown an ability to learn and absorb as a fast and unexpectedly sure-footed learner. He isn't Bill Clinton - clearly academically brilliant, Rhodes Scholar, exceptionally quick witted, master of detail of every policy brief - be he is bloody good. And whoever is briefing him is bloody good, too.
This is one of several things that tell me he is probably a pretty good questioner, and must without doubt be an excellent listener. His reading comprehension must be superb. (Maybe not such a surprise if he was editor of the Harvard Law Review). It is his quiet, orderly, open-minded methodology that is so very impressive. It is plain that he has an ability to study and synthesize, and when he studies it seems he drinks deep. Unlike Bill Clinton, you don't get the feeling that deep down inside he wants to become the next five day champion on Jeopardy.
That ability, that versatility, which I admit I doubted, seems to be his saving grace and sheet anchor all in one. With that skill, he really is much better prepared than I feared. He may or may not be better prepared than John McCain, but in total, his level of ability is so far beyond George Bush Jr., that there really is no comparison. This is a bright, bright guy.
__________
Since I doubted that there was any factual basis for your statement at 165, I asked for an example of a world leader, other than the predictable hard cases, who has shown public contempt for President Obama.
You haven't named a single one, or identified a single incident.
You have agreed with me that Richard Nixon was never treated that way.
You have admitted that Jimmy Carter, whom you despise, was never treated that way.
So, I say again, please identify a single instance in which a credible foreign leader has shown contempt for President Obama, as you assert in your original statement at 165.
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fluffster;
West Germany made at least two big mistakes. First it reunited with East Germany after the wall fell. Second it got involved with France trying to run Europe. It will pay dearly both socially and economically for both mistakes. Germany has a GDP of around 2.5 trilliion dollars I think with a popultion of around 82 million. That's a sixth of America's GDP with slightly over a quarter of its population. Not as productive but still good by European standards. However, from what I've read, it is running a very high budget deficit in proportion to its GDP, much higher than America's or the UK's. This is what is keeping its economy floating but again it will pay dearly for it in the long run.
IMO, the only way out of the current mess is for governments to start printing large amounts of money to allow themselves and their people to pay off debts. The US must be the first to jump. The amount must be of the same order of magnitude as what what was believed to be the wealth that disappeared when the housing bubble collapsed. The longer the US waits, the worse it will be because many people who were in no jeopardy of losing their homes, who did not have sub prime mortgages have lost income and will also lose their homes to banks. Once the US jumps, it will be safe for everyone else to follow, in fact they'll have no choice if they want to remain competitive on the US market. Otherwise their currency will continue to strengthen, their exports to the US continue to shrink.
It wasn't the war that ended the great depression, it was the inflation caused by massive government spending on the war. Who will get hurt? Banks and other lenders like China. They will be paid back with devalued currency. They will get a lesson in Americanomics.
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177. At 11:32pm on 31 Oct 2009, saintDominick wrote:
"Contrary to what you said, Russia has interceded and is actively engaged in solving the Iran nuclear weapons impasse. The fact that their support was given immediately after President Obama decided to end the missile deployment in Eastern Europe is not a coincidence."
"China's role in starting nuclear disarmament talks with North Korea immediately after President Wen's visit to Washington a few months ago is not a coincidence either."
_________
These were two points I deliberately did not want to highlight, although I certainly agree with you.
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ref #177
Dominick why must I provide evidence for you? You could googled it yourself. You and other make opposite statements and present them as fact. when i do provide a link it is not sufficent.
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ref #179
As for qualifications and resumes, well, it is true that we have since seen a woman nominated for high office who was less qualified than Spiro Agnew, less qualified than Junior, and even less qualified than Dan Quayle (which really is saying something).
(Yes Geraldine Ferraro was very unqualified as Walter Mondale's VP. but more qualified than Barack Obama)
But I can tell you for dead certain that I have known, and do know, teenagers who had, and have, more and better knowledge of world affairs than Junior had prior to becoming President of the United States. He was shockingly ill prepared.
(I assume they watch MSNBC, I have seen teenagers more knowledgible than Obama on world affairs too. Bush was more qualified than Obama he did not have a bunch of tax cheats nominated. Domesticly healthcare plan fiasco, swine flue way behind. How long are Obamaphiles going to give him a pass)
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ref #181
Interestedforeigner wrote:
177. At 11:32pm on 31 Oct 2009, saintDominick wrote:
"Contrary to what you said, Russia has interceded and is actively engaged in solving the Iran nuclear weapons impasse. The fact that their support was given immediately after President Obama decided to end the missile deployment in Eastern Europe is not a coincidence."
(What support blocking strong sanctions)
"China's role in starting nuclear disarmament talks with North Korea immediately after President Wen's visit to Washington a few months ago is not a coincidence either."
(Actually the 6 party talk with China's participation was iniated by Bush who stoped the only carrot approach of Madeline Albright. Besides NK already recieved a basketball)
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# 171 Interestedforeigner wrote:
"Oh, Rip-van-Kirin, you must have been asleep, blind, deaf, and sealed in a hermitage for the last eight years."
Only 8 years?
I applaud your efforts to deal with this person using fact, argument, logic and literacy.
Unfortunately there is endless evidence on this blog that they are wasted on him - he deals only in mendacity, prejudice, bigotry, smears and pidgin English. As in Alice in Wonderland - 'words mean what he wants them to mean, no more, no less.'
Since you have dared to disagree with him, it shouldn't be too long now before he smears you as an anti-Semitic terrorist appeaser.
Unfortunately, since he skulks as a coward behind a cloak of anonymity, I doubt any of us have any recourse in law.
[Although there have been some interesting cases in that area recently...]
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# 174 MK
"Obama's diplomacy or apology tour has brought dividens [sic] . No help from Russia and China on the nuclear threat, no quid pro [sic] from Russia for cancelling the missle [sic] defense sheild [sic] , no lessing [sic] of anti-american [sic] rehotoric [sic] from the Chavez, Morales Corea and the other latin American depsots [sic] . No overture from Arab states to Israel."
So perhaps you'd like to provide evidence of exactly how and when the foreign policy of your idols Bush/Cheney achieved these goals?
Of course not - evidence is a concept entirely beyond your grasp.
And looking at your postings, it doesn't seem that Bush/Cheney achieved much in the fight against illiteracy either.....
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# 179 Interestedforeigner wrote: [addressing "MagicKirin"]
"This statement seems at odds with the facts, first because there clearly was another President shown astonishing disregard by foreign leaders, and second because, other than the predictable hard cases, there is not, as far as I am aware, a single instance of a foreign leader showing disrespect to President Obama. On the contrary, there have been embarrassing examples of leader after leader fawning over the poor man."
"I doubted that there was any factual basis for your statement at 165, I asked for an example of a world leader, other than the predictable hard cases, who has shown public contempt for President Obama./You haven't named a single one, or identified a single incident."
"So, I say again, please identify a single instance in which a credible foreign leader has shown contempt for President Obama, as you assert in your original statement at 165."
Interested, I was not the first, and you probably won't be the last, to ask MK for facts to back up his prejudices. They may come when pigs fly and/or hell freezes over. Not before.
Most people would be embarrassed to be constantly shown up like this. Sadly, Shame, like, Truth and Evidence, is one of the many concepts he has no grasp of.
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# 182 MagicKirin wrote:
"Dominick why must I provide evidence for you? You could googled (sic) it yourself. You and other (sic) make opposite statements and present them as fact. when i do provide a link it is not sufficent (sic)."
1 As above - no evidence, just prejudice
2 Some evidence on the so-called 'apology tour", not obtained from Faux News.
"Pointing to President Obama's current overseas trip during the June 3 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends, co-host Gretchen Carlson asserted that "[l]ast time" Obama went to Europe and the Middle East, "a lot of people said, Steve [Doocy, co-host], that he was on an apology tour of sorts." Prominent among those "people" who characterized his April trip as "an apology tour" were many Fox News hosts, contributors, analysts, and regular guests, who often took out of context remarks Obama made during his trip to support their claim. Moreover, Fox News has trotted out its smear for Obama's current trip to Europe and the Middle East, baselessly promoting "another apology tour.""
It goes on to give numerous examples. I've never heard of this site before - ironically enough, it came up on Google.
Link is here - http://mediamatters.org/research/200906030039
MK and Fox - Unfair and Unbalanced....
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IMO, the reason the Republicans lost is they are against all minorities, they have outdated reason d'etre, and their modus operandi is ...outmoded.
Watching a show on C-Span, where two Supreme Court justices argued how to interpret the U.S. Constitution was rather interesting.
The question being, should we interpret the constitution in looking at the way it was inspired into being (the times and circumstances leading to the laws) Or
Should we interpret it the same way as people in the 1700's interpeted it, in others words, segregration is ok as long as it doesn't discriminate..huh? But, that is the Republican way of looking at the constitution of the US.
I E -- "OUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY ...IS HOW WE have INTERPRETED THE CONSTITUTION".....
said the inaccessible and arrogant Republicans.
If that is the correct way of interpreting the US Constitution laws and amendments, then we are *:)DEAD.(:*
We CANNOT change the interpretation of laws, from the past in a changing society--i.e. "society cannot change."
Because our Ancestors have taken over "our lives" --
-- Gay, Blacks, and "other races" than white have no rights than the 1700 thinkers gave them. And their constitution is THEIR constitution not ours!??
In the way they interpret it. That is why Republicans are Repugnant.
Repugnant Republicans...Oh its ok to think differently, but not to act differently.
Yukkkk.
In point of fact, Marcus, you are wrong, IMO,
the war between Great Britain and the colonies was a Civil War until the Colonies Won...
Then it became a REVOLUTION, afterward, when the Constitutional Congress wrote the Constitution.
But, revolutionary changes Have again occurred since then, therefore, now, the Constitution is dependent on the Supreme Court
And the winners of National elections for Congress and President -- especially presidents -- because they do nominate judges whom then are the maker of our laws, therefore the makers of society in the USA.
So, please repugnant Republicans, just get out of the way, FOR NOW BECAUSE the majority of people *as..they..are*..want to take over the country's future course --
they, the majority, do not want the "limited in thought and education and minority" Republicans elected, but they want the progressive and situational logicians that are the majority and whom
should run the country and then take their rightful places IN POWER--AS THEY WERE ELECTED TO DO.
Yes, Obama inspires me and many of us,
because he does believe in Change--and Change does make many many people Nervous--because
It sounds revolutionary, doesn't it? And, it sounds perhaps too intellectually different, as well, huh?
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That sounded so preachy ...sorry :)
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183. At 01:27am on 01 Nov 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
Yes, well, the word "since" tells you that it must be someone nominated since George-the-Younger.
Hint: She looks a lot like Tina Fey, but lacks Tina Fey's intelligence, talent, and ability.
_______
"I assume they watch MSNBC, ..."
Hardly.
The critical thing is that they read broadly in the humanities, and have classical materials put before them.
With due apologies to Auntie Beeb, well rounded knowledge of world affairs and appropriate historical perspective on current events can not be obtained from broadcast news services, whether TV, radio, or the web.
As someone who has pursued a career in science, my experience is that:
There is no substitute for the printed word.
There is no substitute for a broad grounding in literature.
There is no substitute for a broad grounding in history, both classical and modern.
I was particularly impressed when our old friend Sam Tyler posted the one word reply "Suetonious". Now there is a man with an education.
__________
When Bush-the-Younger ran for office, he was unable, inter alia, to
(a) identify correctly America's closest ally;
(b) identify correctly America's largest trading partner;
(c) identify correctly the government leader of America's largest trading partner;
(d) identify correctly the single largest source of America's oil and gas imports.
What an unmitigated disaster.
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ref 188
Media Matters is a watchdog site that reports on journalistic bias - anyone's bias. It was started several years ago by David Brock, who was deep into the "vast right wing conspiracy". I mean really deep. When he finally came up for air and realized there was absolutely nothing to any of the Whitewater charges and that he'd been a tool (in more ways than one!) of the Clinton bashing machine, he came out against media bias - including his own. The site is perhaps the most respected, even by journalists, for tracking and reporting who said what, when and the overall spin, left or right. Along with the facts and figures to back up whether they were telling the truth, lying or merely repeating unfounded rumors.
By the way, kudos to you for having the patience to type (sic) that many times. I can't be bothered to clean up the gibberish. Frankly, I'm never quite sure whether or not they're high, don't understand the purpose of spell check, or their four year old is taking dictation.
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# 192,
Your post is a revelation to me, thank you Thank you. Someone had the guts to change from one way of thinking to another more rational, ethical, positive, IMO... way of thinking...wow.
It reminds me of the Republican who came out as Gay--and said, there were so many more of him/her kind there--in that party whom were not 'Out.'
It prompted Democratic party Gays to go on an "outing" rampage that tore the Republican party "as is" Apart (sadly and controversively lol)
I do have to watch out for my own "triumphalist" thinking ..its so boringly hubristic :)
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193:
"It prompted Democratic Party Gays to go on an 'outing' rampage that tore the Republican Party 'as is' Apart (sadly and [controversially] lol)"
Really, I never got the sense that anything of the sort happened. I'm not up on what's bouncing around the Liberal blogosphere these days, so I must have missed this so called rampage or the obviously hilarious tearing of the Republican Party from it.
I guess you're implying, like so many do for blacks and other minorities, that those gay individuals are not real gay people unless they vote Democrat.
This is so typical of far-left liberals today, and sadly shows how close minded and anti-Democratic those who think like that are. And yet, they pat themselves on the back for being oh so open minded and enlightened. Rather, it’s an extreme form of identity politics, something that Democrats are disturbingly well versed in; perhaps it’s because they’ve had so much practice over the years in the formerly Solid South. Forcing people to vote for their preferred party by such organized intimidation and malicious action because of their race, gender, or sex makes them no better than the likes of the KKK or George Orwell's 1984 Thought Police.
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Obama's policies seem to be falling apart. His foreign policy so far has been an unmitigated disaster. Scotland and the rest of the UK told him where to go by releasing the convicted Pan Am bomber. The Russians snubbed him. Iran's president all but gave him the finger. Israel told him NYET re his demands for stopping contruction on the settlements. His Secretary of State just insulted the entire nation of Pakistan. Even Fidel Castro blames increases in American tourism which Obama allowed as the cause of swine flu in Cuba. Hugo Chavez told him where to go. In fact Secretary of State Clinton is trying desperately to get the Palestinians to sit down at a table to talk to the Israelis about peace. Maybe she should first get the Palestinians to sit down with the Palestinians to talk about peace.
At home things are not much better. The economy is still very weak and it isn't clear that the stimulus package will work. The health care bill Obama wanted passed by the August recess is still being fought over by the Democrats themselves. Even if Obama doesn't sell out America's interests in Copenhagen it will be rougher sledding for his carbon tax scheme than it was for his health insurance plan.
Only one thing to do Mr. President. Take some time off, play a round or two of golf. Relax. At least you have a job, food on the table, and a roof over your head even if it is at taxpayer expense.
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ref 194
And you would know all about identity politics, because you just smeared every single member of the Democratic Party with the same broad brush strokes you accuse Democrats of using.
And just to remind you, the Democratic Party in the North was never the same as the Dixiecrats - that's why they split before the Civil War, had an uneasy alliance after, and why the South finally decamped to join the Republican Party when they couldn't get their good old boy racist way anymore under Johnson.
So if you have complaints about the Dixiecrats, take it up with the Republican Party. They're your problem now, not ours.
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193. At 04:28am on 01 Nov 2009, stellarBeloved wrote:
It prompted Democratic party Gays to go on an "outing" rampage
I don't really agree with outing anyone, although when the very anti-gay ones get caught hitting on men in public toilets or with male prostitutes, it is very funny. Funny, in that they always seem to be the most vocal "family values" types. Which, in its own way, is really kind of creepy.
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189:
It seems I keep coming back to your statements, stellarBeloved. You and others seem intent on using this world forum to spread absolutely outrageous lies about Republicans, et al. I can only counter you as an alternative because people will believe what they want to believe, so I'll give it a shot.
You stated, "The reason the Republicans lost is they are against all minorities."
-First, you are wrong as to why the Republicans lost the previous election; there were many reasons, but this was not one of them. Second, you have no proof beyond false conjecture and assumptions that "they" meaning "all" Republicans are "against all minorities". There is zero evidence for this libellous statement. You have been used and confused by people not too dissimilar from those who went on an "outing rampage".
You said, "Should we interpret it the same way as people in the 1700's interpreted it, in others words, segregation is ok as long as it doesn't discriminate..huh? But, that is the Republican way of looking at the constitution of the US."
-First, this is a false interpretation. You either don't understand the correct interpretation or you do understand it, but you choose to mock it by picking an absurd and inflammatory hypothetical. Second, many people such as yourself would prefer the re-interpretation or re-definition of the Constitution to fit your morals rather than have the courts enforce the law as it is. The courts should never make law because those individuals are not accountable to the public. The proper and constitutional channel for amending the Constitution and fixing the type of out-dated language that allowed for segregation is the Congress.
You said, "the war between Great Britain and the colonies was a Civil War until the Colonies Won...Then it became a REVOLUTION, afterward, when the Constitutional Congress wrote the Constitution."
-First, you need to know the definition of Revolution to pronounce an event to not be one. A Revolution is defined as: an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed. That is exactly what happened. Second, your telling of history is wrong. You seem to have glossed over how revolutionary colonial independence and Republicanism was in the 1700s. You also seem to have forgotten the war time Congresses as well as the Articles of Confederation which were established well before the Constitutional Congress was held.
You also said, "But, revolutionary changes have again occurred since then, therefore, now, the Constitution is dependent on the Supreme Court.
And the winners of National elections for Congress and President -- especially presidents -- because they do nominate judges whom then are the maker of our laws, therefore the makers of society in the USA."
-This is a telling statement which shows a profound repugnance for the Constitution, a disturbing affection and desire for statism, and a matter-of-fact assertion that such a revolution has succeeded in toppling America's traditional representative government.
And lastly, you said, "So, please repugnant Republicans, just get out of the way, FOR NOW BECAUSE the majority of people *as..they..are*..want to take over the country's future course -- they, the majority, do not want the 'limited in thought and education and minority' Republicans elected, but they want the progressive and situational logicians that are the majority and whom should run the country and then take their rightful places IN POWER--AS THEY WERE ELECTED TO DO."
-At least you said please. However, the Democrats can do much of what they please legislatively because they control the veto pen as well as both chambers of the Congress with sizable majorities. That is why no Republican filibuster has occurred, or why no Republican sponsored bill on healthcare has been allowed by Pelosi and Reid to come up for discussion on the House and Senate floors. The only way for Republican members of Congress to really influence the debate is by going directly to the media which largely ignores them outside of large Official Responses and controversial outbursts anyways because of their irrelevance. The Democrats are currently having issues with the uncooperative members of their own caucus, not the Republicans.
Anyways, I apologize that I have picked you out again, stellarBeloved; believe it or not, I actually read the post before I read who wrote it. I also apologize to everyone for the length of my post, but I felt it was necessary. I'm not angry with you, stellarBeloved; I am just so frustrated and appalled by your post #189 that I felt I had to respond with an alternative argument. I hope you and everyone else enjoy the rest of the weekend and the Halloween festivities.
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#198 Bienvenue
Wasn't George Washington a British army General before 1776? I'm sure he fought against the French, amongst others, to keep the New world British. Makes Stellar's case about it being a civil war more compelling I think.
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ref #192
Media Matters is a watchdog site that reports on journalistic bias - anyone's bias. It was started several years ago by David Brock, who was deep into the "vast right wing conspiracy". I mean really deep. When he finally came up for air and realized there was absolutely nothing to any of the Whitewater charges and that he'd been a tool (in more ways than one!) of the Clinton bashing machine, he came out against media bias - including his own. The site is perhaps the most respected, even by journalists, for tracking and reporting who said what, when and the overall spin, left or right. Along with the facts and figures to back up whether they were telling the truth, lying or merely repeating unfounded rumors.
________________________________-
Media Matters is funded by liberal activist George Soros it only reports on alleged conservative bias. So take them as seriosuly as you would the Daily Kos
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Ref 178, Amerika first
"Had Barney Frank and Chris Dodd not blocked an investigation of the banking industry by GWB first term Treasury Secretary then the financal meltdown that has occurred might not have occurred."
Don't let Dick Cheney's continuous efforts to mislead the public influence your opinion. As members of the minority party during President Bush's first term, neither Sen. Frank nor Sen. Dodd were in a position to block anything Bush proposed or anything the GOP majority in Congress wanted to pass. The Democrats did not have control of the Senate until the last two years of the Bush Administration when the Democrats had 49 seats, the GOP had 49 seats, there were 2 Independents and Dick Cheney was the tie breaker.
In early 2007, as new chairman of the House Finance Services Committee, Frank sponsored a bill (H. R. 1427) authorizing the creation of the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA), granting that agency supervisory and regulatory authority over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The new agency was required to reform the business practices of Fannie and Freddie to limit their exposure to credit and market fluctuations and other financial risks. President Bush signed the new legislation into law on July 30, 2008.
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Ref 182, Magic
"Dominick why must I provide evidence for you? You could googled it yourself. You and other make opposite statements and present them as fact. when i do provide a link it is not sufficent."
Don't you think it is a good idea to provide some evidence when making a claim? The rationale used by Rush Limbaugh and FOX News to describe President Obama's tour, and particularly his visit to Egypt, as an "apology tour" was that in addition to having the audacity of visiting and talking to Muslims he presssured the Israelis to make concessions and find a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian impasse.
In effect, and according to right wing fascists, anything that defuses the many crises that exist throughout the world and make the need to invade developing nations and impose our will on others constitute appeasement, is an apology, and is tantamount to political sacrilege.
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Ref 184, Magic
"(What support blocking strong sanctions)"
Precisely. Sanctions don't work when the country targeted can sell China all the oil it wants and the only thing we can do is sit and watch. The sanctions proposed by the Bush administration were not only unenforceable, they were designed to perpetuate a crisis considered critical by its neocon sponsors to justify our adventurism and "defense" spending.
The recent breakthroughs, and especially the distinct possibility of Iran agreeing to enrich uranium overseas, which denies them the ability to develop nuclear weapons, is a testament to the benefits of diplomacy and good will over policies of fear and intimidation.
"(Actually the 6 party talk with China's participation was iniated by Bush who stoped the only carrot approach of Madeline Albright. Besides NK already recieved a basketball)"
Thank you for acknowledging that Bush participated and endorsed the six-party talks. Hopefully the new diplomatic initiative will produce a little more than the destruction of an obsolete nuclear plant...
I don't know about basketballs, but a few old Westerns may do the trick.
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ref #202
Don't you think it is a good idea to provide some evidence when making a claim? The rationale used by Rush Limbaugh and FOX News to describe President Obama's tour, and particularly his visit to Egypt, as an "apology tour" was that in addition to having the audacity of visiting and talking to Muslims he presssured the Israelis to make concessions and find a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian impasse.
In effect, and according to right wing fascists, anything that defuses the many crises that exist throughout the world and make the need to invade developing nations and impose our will on others constitute appeasement, is an apology, and is tantamount to political sacrilege.
_____________________________-
Dominick: do you? does Fluff brain Simple simon and Jhonny Dublin? In regard to the Israel/Palestinians situation: go towww.bostonglobe.com; which you will agree is not a right wing paper. there is an article saying how Israel has made concessions(maybe not enough for you) but some and how it is the Palestinians who refuse to come to the table.
Which is the status quo for most of the Arab countries, all of their preconditions met before negoiations.
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post,199 deceiler.
Washington was a lieutenant colonel of virginia militia in the 1750`s.
he tried vigorously to be made a major in the British army,but the expence of purchasing a commission was about £2000 sterling,an enormous fig for Washingtons limited means.
Alas,he was never to procure that regular army commission he longed for.If he had the out come of 1776 could well have taken a very different path. But IF`s & AND`s makes pots and pans...
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MK, the only concessions for people of the mindset of American left wingers and nearly all Europeans I've met that Israel could make that would satisfy them are concessions that would amount to a national suicide pact. It won't happen. Perhaps with the election of Natanyahu, Israel has reawoken to its dire plight of being surrounded by enemies who want to destroy it in a world that largely sides with them. How fortunate that the one ally Israel needs, the US is firmly on its side. Even President Obama can't stand in America's way on that issue. If he tries, he will be swept away like straw in the wind himself. One reason for such widespread hatred of America around the world is its unflinching total support for Israel's security. That hatred is sure evidence America is doing something right.
oh sainted one, of course Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd did everything they could do block investigations. They know that if any reasonable investigation were held, among those at the top of the list of people responsible for the fiasco would be them. They and their do-gooder policies of wanting every American to own a home even if they couldn't possibly afford it bankrupted the entire world. But there is far more blame to go around including for many Republicans, President Bush II among them. He wanted the same thing. When you rob from the rich to give to the poor instead of helping the poor become rich themselves, everyone becomes poor.
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Here's an uplifting link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBArU8pFshc&feature=related
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195. At 05:47am on 01 Nov 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Obama's policies seem to be falling apart. ..."
________
Strangely, I agree with that statement.
Right now, I can't see how anybody can tell whether he is winning or losing, so to speak. He is trying to juggle so many difficult problems all at one time. Still, none of the balls has fallen to the ground yet.
It is a measure of the times that, nonetheless, he is doing better than expected. It's that old saw about making sausages and making laws.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and fixing America's problems isn't going to be done in a day either.
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#206 Does everyone become poor? Or do we try to make it so everyone has just enough. You can still have a pretty good time without being rich...see this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snzLrrS-kls&feature=related
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200. At 11:39am on 01 Nov 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
Media Matters is funded by liberal activist George Soros it only reports on alleged conservative bias. So take them as seriosuly as you would the Daily Kos
That's not entirely true. They also call out MSNBC fairly frequently when they get sloppy with their reporting standards. And facts are facts. They don't lean one way or another.
But the bigger issue in reporting facts these days comes from the lack of unbiased source material. At one time, the US had a huge nonpartisan research apparatus compiling data for use by all political parties, branches of government and non-governmental agencies. Every year tons of material was published and made available to anyone and everyone. The researchers and compilers of the material were simply government employees who held their jobs through every administration and were beholden to none. When Newt Gingrich gained control of the House in 1994 he deliberately dismantled this important in-house aid to governing and farmed out most of the business of research to conservative think tanks under the guise of making government smaller and more efficient through privatization.
So when you hear a congressman say he doesn't know the actual numbers, that's because his aides can't simply make a phone call to the appropriate department and get the stats - even incomplete ones. Much of it is now contracted out and they have to wait on the material - and there have been problems with quality control as well. But that does not excuse misquoting the numbers or making them up on the spot. And that's what Media Matters is best at: collating the actual documented facts and figures and putting them out there. Along with having people willing to sit through hours and hours of video and audio tapes counting the political references made one way or another in order to confirm or discount claims of media bias. Anyone willing to do the same could easily contradict them if they get it wrong. And while I've heard lots of people say that Media Matters is biased and should be ignored, I've never seen any actual proof from their accusers that they've consistently, and to the detriment of one party or another, gotten it completely wrong.
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"We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap." -
Kurt Vonnegut
#206 - remember the tale of King Midas?
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Ref 206, MAII
Blaming Dodd and Frank for our economic meltdown ignores the fact that neither has the authority to make policy, and that both were members of the minority party for much of their tenure.
Both parties share the blame for what happened - and so do we, the people - but one thing is clear, it didn't happen because legislation was passed in the Clinton era to facilitate house ownership to lower middle class Americans. In part, because the real estate meltdown was only one of several factors for the economic problems we are having, but also because the real estate collapse was not caused by low income people defaulting on their mortgages.
I don't know what is happening in other parts of the country but in Florida, where I live, most of the foreclosures and the large inventory of available housing are luxury condos and mansions built by naive developers that thought the influx of wealthy retirees from other parts of the countries was going to go on forever. When those potential newcomers were unable to sell their houses in the Northeast and Midwest they either postponed retirement or stayed put. Our greedy investors, and the banks that lend them the money, were left holding the bag.
Today you can buy $1M+ condos throughout Florida for half the original price, a fact that has not gone unnoticed to hundreds of foreigners.
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oh sainted one;
"but one thing is clear, it didn't happen because legislation was passed in the Clinton era to facilitate house ownership to lower middle class Americans."
As usual, you are dead wrong. Ultimately it was the default on these mortgages that lead to the collapse. There were other factors that magnified it but this was the root cause. As with the stock market crash in the late 1920s and early 1930s that led to the great depression, very easy credit terms were advanced to people whose only collateral was the assets bought with that credit. This created a highly speculative bubble market which inevitably had to collapse because the credit instruments were timed so that after a period of a couple of years, periodic payments to repay the loans would rise steeply. This game had been played in California successfully for decades where seemingly eternal appreciation of real estate allowed people to constantly refinance and trade up but like any pyramid scheme, it had to end. It was greatly compounded by allowing financial institutions to effectively place very heavy bets on the expectation that most of these mortgages were safe and would be paid back. This is the leverege, the multiplier which was around 10 in the US and 20 to 40 in Europe. Europe copied the US, especially the UK insofar as mortgages were concerned. On the continent mortgages may not have been so freely available but the banks were free to speculate on those CMOs and CDSs. Clinton himself admitted partial responsibility for the ensuing disaster. It was remarkable that shortly after the Lehman Brothers crisis nearly collapsed the entire world's economy a year ago Alan Greenspan testified before Congress saying "there is something about markets I don't understand." DUH! That market self regulation is no regulation and that laissez-faire capitalism under any name leads to depression? Is that what you advocated so strongly and didn't understand Mr. Greenspan? Yes it will regulate itself. Through massive bankruptcies and depression which are socially unacceptable. Inevitably any economic systems exists solely at the service of society at large.
The reason why so much high end real estate is also in default sainted one is because many wealthy people had their assets tied up in investments directly or indirectly linked to the health of the financial markets and sector. That is why the rich became poor as the result of trying to give the benefits of being rich to people who were still too poor to afford what was handed over to them. You cannot make poor people rich in any large numbers that way, you are far better off finding and giving them the means to become rich on their own. That way it is sustainable.
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205. At 2:35pm on 01 Nov 2009, ukwales wrote:
Washington was a lieutenant colonel of virginia militia in the 1750`s.
he tried vigorously to be made a major in the British army,but the expence of purchasing a commission was about £2000 sterling,an enormous fig for Washingtons limited means.
Alas,he was never to procure that regular army commission he longed for.If he had the out come of 1776 could well have taken a very different path. But IF`s & AND`s makes pots and pans...
Wonderful bit of history on GW, but the rebellion/revolution began long before Washington and his dreams. And military prowess aside, would have happened anyway, one way or another.
It actually started around 1740 with Samuel Adams, elder cousin of John Adams, when the British government came down hard on colonial land speculators starting in the 1730s. Adams' father was a speculator who'd bought up thousands of acres in land grants, and when the British government made such purchases illegal, and further went on to make the law retroactive, Adams Sr. was ruined. Sam Jr. went from being a rich landed prince-ling at Harvard to serving tables in the dining hall overnight. In 1743 his Masters thesis argued that it was "lawful to resist the Supreme Magistrate, if the Commonwealth cannot otherwise be preserved". In public, he worked tirelessly in support of "colonial rights", but privately swore to destroy the British Empire.
Adams, a political genius, is often described by historians as the driving force behind the American Revolution. The spider at the center of the web, who pulled the propaganda strings to make every British misstep appear to be larger and more significant than it ought to have been. He was behind the Boston Tea Party and turned the Boston Massacre (which was really just a an attempt to collect a debt from a soldier gone horribly wrong) into a rallying cry for what had been an unpopular Independence movement.
For those still arguing rebellion vs revolution it might help to know that the foundation of the insurrection was laid in the 1740s and always had a political goal from the start with an endgame of Independence in mind. What I find most fascinating is that most people don't realize that Adams' actually set the long term political policy goals for the infant US once it had gained independence from Britain. And that policy was to dismantle the British Empire that had caused his father's ruin and his personal humiliation. The US demand that the colonial powers divest themselves of all their holdings prior to agreeing to joining the United Nations was the culmination of Adams' dream - two hundred years later.
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"Adams' father was a speculator who'd bought up thousands of acres in land grants, and when the British government made such purchases illegal, and further went on to make the law retroactive, Adams Sr. was ruined."
This may in part explain why ex post fact laws were made illegal under the US Constitution.
"...but privately swore to destroy the British Empire."
Ah revenge is ever so sweet, even if it comes after you are dead. Not only the British empire but all empires. And not just Britain's empire but Britan itself. There should be a sign over the door when you exit British immigration at the airport and enter the country saying "All ye who enter here abandon hope." Financially smashed by the American financial crisis and geopolitically facing extinction as a distinct nation and people resulting from the policies of the EU, the land called Britain may remain but as a nation those in the 18th century Adams despised so much would hardly recognize their country today. From Britaina rules the waves upon whose empire the sun never set to a basket case in a mere 250 years, what a fall from power. If there is a heaven, the spirit of Samuel Adams is looking down upon worldly events smiling. And IMO the beer which carries his name is the one in the world I enjoy the most by far. Cheers Mr. Adams, here's to ya! And thanks.
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as put on the box earlier. Obama has got a debate on health care moving. He has not dictated anything. he has allowed them old polyticks to do the dictating.
On both sides.
but he has got the debate further than any other president in the US history . so to say he has not achieved anythign is not reallly true.
the debate was at NO public Never not over our dead bodies.
Now maybe, If.
But NO change???
Talk of capping pay for bail out firms.
did GW include that when he would have had an easy time doing it?
No.
The discussion is on. there are 3 more years. those that expected change so broad and so quick considering the republicans stance and behaviour is being foolish.
They have not allowed it to happen and will not because they cannot play fair.
213 MA you as always are wrong.
medical cost went up before house prices plummeted.
it was foreclosure prompted by medical bills and the ending of jobs because health care was and is so expensive that started this whole plunge.
You have had it so wrong so far that your convinced "dead wrong " should be enough to convince me the opposite but I'll let history do the convincing.
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"American left wingers and nearly all Europeans I've met that Israel could "
There you go. gain. Sorry MA but there are plenty of right wing Americans with no time for Israel. they just pretend they do because they want the rapture to take them because their old and tired of life.
shame and sick when you see them say they love their grandchildren. they love them selves.
Then there are the Americans that just hate Israel on the right.
You mis represent the popularity of your cause in the states. They is a majority that see we should not supply weapons. isn't it undemocratic to ignore that? or does democracy go to hell when you are fighting your eternal war.
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163 look little legion.
you are crazy . you do know that don't you.
Gordon was not snubbed he was not elevated. that is different.
The missile deal was a dumb ass idea anyway and was bnkrupting the nation . Oh and the whole of the rest of europe was against the shield, and Russia.
so really the Czechs lost their bribe. big deal.
where's your other ghost. he makes more sense.
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fluffster;
" he has got the debate further than any other president in the US history . so to say he has not achieved anythign is not reallly true."
Well if you call generating the most hot air about a subject in Washington DC an accomplishment I guess you are right. But that's all it amounts to so far.
What are you smoking anyway? I never said anything about medical costs. We were talking about why the economy collapsed.
"Sorry MA but there are plenty of right wing Americans with no time for Israel."
It was true many decades ago that anti-semitism was rampant among right wingers but not anymore. Not since the evangelical right realized that for them, god's plan is for Israel to conquer the Arabs BEFORE the second coming of Jesus Christ. Now most of the right LOVES Israel. In fact I think it was Jerry Falwell who said before he died that Ariel Sharon's stroke that put him in a coma was God's revenge for giving up territory in Gaza to the Palestinians. Much of the right wing in American is more adamant about Israel going to war to capture what it sees as Israrel's prophesized territory than even the most conservative Israelis themselves are.
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Post214. Gavrielle La Poste.
The past they say is a foreign country.
I have always struggled to try and understand the frame of mind that resulted in an armed civil war.
The Mother country had just fought a bitter seven yr world war with France. The result of that war greatly helped secure the colonies from French colonisation in the hinterland as the original 13 colonies pushed westward towards the proclamation line set by George lll.
Washington was involved in the first skirmish of that war with the French.
The taxes that were levied to help pay for that security were not as punitive as suffered by the general population back in Gt.Britain.
Ok, British officialdom was and still is, high handed, but no taxation without representation was the case back home also.
American friends in Parliment eventually had the taxes thrown out.
Could it be said that to take up arms against the Mother country would be similar to the UK entering into armed conflict with the US after it greatly helped to secure our freedom from Hitler and stalin..
Ps,,George lll was much maligned, ok he used to talk to the odd tree in Regents Park but hey, no-one is perfect!!
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ukeofwails;
"American friends in Parliment eventually had the taxes thrown out."
That's not what American colonists who signed the Declaration of Independence believed. They believed they had no friends in Parliament;
"Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends."
Here's the full text;
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html
Is America's war with Britain really over? Hmmm, perhaps the intervening time between 1814 and 2009 has only been a lull in the action. Just in case it is....Americans should keep their muskets and musket balls at the ready and their powder horns filled. You never know when those darned Redcoats might reappear just over the ridge. One if by land, two if by sea....
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If President Obama's goal was to seize and control large oil reserves we would not be in Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia, Lybia, Nigeria, Venezuela or postponing President Bush's decision to leave Iraq next year would be our top priorities to "follow the great oil trail".
Whether people want to believe it or not, we could care less about the proposed gas pipeline through Afghanistan. We are in that country because of political considerations, not because of oil and certainly not because we want to liberate the population of Afghanistan from themselves and impose a political system that is inconsistent with their values and aspirations.
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The sniffing dogs followed the great oil trail...saddam became the enemy when he went to other market of oil, taliban became the enemy when they refused to make the pipe line deal with the american company, iran became the enemy when the new government after shah did the same.
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220. At 7:47pm on 01 Nov 2009, ukwales wrote:
I have always struggled to try and understand the frame of mind that resulted in an armed civil war.
Then bear in mind that the uprising in America was led by upper middle class lawyers and businessmen. They agitated, propagandized and eventually funded the war, not the common people, who had little to gain as opposed to men with shipping, manufacturing and other interests then controlled by Parliament. John Hancock, for instance, supposedly made his fortune bootlegging tea and rum from the West Indies.
Like most of American history, it was all about business. And there was nothing personal against George III. He was merely a convenient focal point for the Adams propaganda machine. It's hard to demonize a large group of men who are on record as having differing opinions, but a King is an easy target. No one with any real understanding of the situation back then blamed George. In their letters they blamed Parliament. Which may be why John Adams was accepted at George's Court as the American Ambassador and Jefferson, who'd written such slanderous lies in the Declaration of Independence, was snubbed when he visited as our Ambassador to France.
The taxes that were levied to help pay for that security were not as punitive as suffered by the general population back in Gt.Britain.
Ok, British officialdom was and still is, high handed, but no taxation without representation was the case back home also.
There is no doubt that America owed Britain a good sum of money for its defense. There is also no doubt that the colonial governments were willing to pay their fair share. If, and only if, the colonial governments were approached separately as independent, autonomous governments, who would then levy the specific taxes themselves and authorize payment to Great Britain. It was the heavy handed, across the board taxing of all the colonies as a whole that was the point of contention. But Britain, which had been distracted for many years with wars, wished to regain complete control over their far too independent colonies. Where violations of the trade rules, i.e. what American businesses were and weren't allowed to do to avoid competing with Britain, had grown endemic.
For example, Americans were allowed to produce cotton, but not allowed to manufacture their own cloth on a large scale. They were allowed to produce dyes, but those dyes had to be shipped back to England for their textile manufacturers' use. Americans couldn't legally pick up a shipment of tea in India and sell it back in the colonies, but were required to purchase exclusively from the West India Company.
When Britain wasn't looking, Americans began to rule themselves and by the time Parliament noticed it was too late to stop the forward momentum. And the businessmen who'd made fortunes circumventing what they considered onerous British laws, weren't about to lose their lucrative trades. And were, in fact, eager to expand if Britain could somehow be got out of the picture.
Could it be said that to take up arms against the Mother country would be similar to the UK entering into armed conflict with the US after it greatly helped to secure our freedom from Hitler and stalin.
Actually, it was more a war of words that time, but again about money. After the war, when Britain was on the verge of financial collapse, Parliament sent a representative, economist John Maynard Keynes, to Washington to demand the US give them a grant of money and bail them out. The same John Maynard Keynes who warned the allies at the end of WWI not to beggar Germany with reparations or it would likely incite another world war. The very same man whose writings managed to convince Woodrow Wilson not to join in the "let's all beggar Germany" fest that ensued and created Hitler. It was considered sheer gall on the part of the British to claim America was "late" to the war and therefore owed Britain a debt, when America had specifically counseled a strategy of moderation 20 years earlier that might have prevented the Second World War.
In any case, no grants were forthcoming, but Britain was given a loan - which I believe was finally paid off only a few years ago. Of course, having Britain between a rock and a hard place, made it easy for the US to finish implementing Samuel Adams plan during the formation of the UN. And as MAII implied, Adams' long game, which has been part of US political/military doctrine since our separation will finally be complete once Lisbon is enacted.
Now don't get me wrong. Unlike Marcus, I am not at all eager to dance on the grave of Great Britain. I am not celebrating what Adams did, merely recounting my understanding of the history behind the actual events. That Britain has long been an American target for business reasons is only a statement of fact. Because while others may have colonized, only Britain could ever truly compete with America on a scale that threatened US interests. In any event, I will not be at all happy, given the nation's long and distinguished history, and its ability to adapt to the changing world around it, to see it relegated to the equivalent of Texas. Proudly proclaiming that it once had a Prime Minister who was more than just a provincial governor. I will be very, very sad on the day that happens.
Ultimately, and in answer to one of Mark's earlier questions: Does America no longer trust Britain? In light of the fact that the UK has been under sustained attack by the US for more than 200 years, perhaps Britain should be asking itself: Should we ever have trusted the US? And the simple answer to that is: No. We may have been your ally, but we were never truly your friend. But then, we are no nation's true friend. America, as always, stands alone.
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Then bear in mind that the uprising in America was led by upper middle class lawyers and businessmen. They agitated, propagandized and eventually funded the war, not the common people, who had little to gain as opposed to men with shipping, manufacturing and other interests then controlled by Parliament. John Hancock, for instance, supposedly made his fortune bootlegging tea and rum from the West Indies.
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now, you know, why your government and that of israel, drone or target kill the leaders of those they invade..
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224. At 9:26pm on 01 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
now, you know, why your government and that of israel, drone or target kill the leaders of those they invade..
LOL! Like that's something you had to tell me! Of course we target the leaders. We've been doing that since we violated the Rules of Warfare against the British in 1775 after Concord and Lexington. On the long march of British troops back to Boston the local militias wiped out or wounded more British officers than they did common men. It's nothing new, and your patriotic guerrillas would do it too, if we didn't already make sure our commanders don't wear any distinguishing symbols of rank in the field. Clever, eh?
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LOL! Like that's something you had to tell me! Of course we target the leaders. We've been doing that since we violated the Rules of Warfare against the British in 1775 after Concord and Lexington. On the long march of British troops back to Boston the local militias wiped out or wounded more British officers than they did common men. It's nothing new, and your patriotic guerrillas would do it too, if we didn't already make sure our commanders don't wear any distinguishing symbols of rank in the field. Clever, eh?
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And I am not talking about military commanders, I am talking about the political or organizational leaders..kill their leaders and leave the people like orphans, that too has been by the way is british..but most openly used by israel and now usa..You call it clever, I call it disgusting..
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226. At 10:04pm on 01 Nov 2009, colonelartist wrote:
You call it clever, I call it disgusting.
You're just upset because it works. And if we learned it from anyone, we learned it from the Romans. Who no doubt stole it from the Egyptians. Who probably got the idea from the Hittites. Who probably learned it from the Akkadians and Sumerians. Who, of course, ruled Mesopotamia, also known as Iraq, 5000 years before any of us were born. You know what they say: What goes around comes around.
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post 223 Gavrielle la post.
Thank you for your incredible reply to my post.
The drift into the EU now seems unstoppable and what is one able to do about it?
Why the UK did not stay commited to the old commanwealth, escapes me totally.
The long shadow of WW1&2 still haunts Europe.Nearly every town and village in the UK has a list of the names of the fallen,some of those lists are very long,but anything(they say),would be preferable to such suffering again.
Sadly mainland Europe has never had our best interests at heart either, but then again Germany was willing to sacrifice the mighty Mark in exchange for the Euro to the general good of Europe.
What concerns me is US and EU tension, with our voice lost, and yes, it will be a bad day when this happens..
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Regarding the writers of the constitution:
The Idea behind the concept was a noble one, however the inclusion or consideration for others (non Anglo) was concealed still within their hearts.
The documents never considered the consideration of many (and its inception)and subsequent amendments or civil rights law which came much further along. The Object was to maintain control within pretty much civilized reason and appease the people.
Some were instantly relieved, while others were appalled.
Not one of them (perhaps) thought that any group or individual would come into their private club, that was not (A.S.) like themselves. The governing powers did all they could do to insure a very tightly knit kinship. There was not only bigotry, which extended throughout our nation, also there was the mistaken belief that a Negro could never be smart enough to occupy a civil post. Yet the fight continued, when not on paper, in the hearts and minds of many. Every opportunity to sabotage the success of a non good old boy was used. If many had their way, there would not be a single Black person in America today, Let alone in Africa.
Things and people do change, Some began or already had convictions about this maligned way of life, and with their help, history is what it is today here in America.
The racists and bigots are still around, just use more subtle tones and means. There are also very vocal ones and it is their prerogative to be who they want to be.
Anyone who questions the founding fathers work can do so, all I want to say about that is they were correct in writing these documents and although they were expecting to be the only ones to ever make use of them, they are still valid today.
Changing the context or meaning of their words is tantamount to moving the carrot, at a time when we all can benefit from their vision.
There are some additions we can make on top of those, additions like those that we have come to represent in our society now.
The liberties and freedoms by which we embrace our culture, That no one may dictate our persuasions. Personally, I do not have to like another persons way of life but, I do not condemn them as an individual or group.
A person is a person is a person, Woman, Gay, Black, White, Spanish or whichever the case may be. A fact I will point to, if It is indeed a fact.
Guiding principals are a matter of personal preference, and even the law has to at times make provisions. Otherwise we would all be criminals.
Unless I misunderstood, any of our 50 states can and have the right to (if justified) break away from the union. The USA body is not all by itself the law.
Soros, George has been a clever manipulator in the financial aspect, I am not so sure He is a Conservative though.
Barney, F. was aware of a problem, He denied the existence of any real danger to the economy. Bush also knew of the problems and it blew up in our time.
What I ask is, why in our time? Why not during Clinton's watch?
Telle est la vie.
Things, as far back as I can recall where the news media was influenced quite easily by our government, first began to not make sense, was during the Vietnam era, where every time a few soldiers from our side were killed, it was suppressed and a report of hundreds of enemy casualties was reported instead.
Every single bit of news was first approved by our government, and to report otherwise made you a commie. The media seemed to be alright with that, as they perhaps felt it their patriotic duty.
When more and more people became aware of this, they began to allow the press into combat areas and later interfered, not so much.
I have yet to see a president compelled to take a polygraph test.
It is my belief none would pass anyway.
So, we live by the lies we are told. The media now slants everything in their own way. Some favor the government and some the people.
I have seen clips on the news (not on national tv) where the interviewer or reporter thinks of him/herself as though they were the district attorney in a murder trial, ruthless and biased.
A few hundred years of growth has inspired us greatly, our technology has replaced our ability to exhibit compassionate comportment.
Hopefully I am mistaken, As things keep looking more grim each day for us.
The patience of a multitude of people is being tried, and tried. How much more before there is no more we are willing to sacrifice.
The temperament of the ultra wealthy is against us, while their cup is flowing over with profits, their taskmasters are even now ordering our production to increase at a much lower wage. Greed of these few has no end, and the logic that would make Afghanistan a country with elected officials stands in question.
Is it going to be another cheated election or is it even going to be accepted by the ones opposing any outside influence?
The Afghanistan of tomorrow may still become the killing fields for many.
Clinton barking in their ear isn’t going to scare anyone, not at least any more scared than they may already be. This affair in my own estimation is not winnable. Israel does no longer have a leash.
If the US were to say, we are no longer going to support you, they would say fine see you.
They have all they need and can continue on their own. They do not have a proliferation treaty and refuse to have one. Iran, and several others have no treaty as well. But Israel does have nuclear sites and has enriching capabilities and can independently wipe out half the world. So much power, for such a small and relatively new country. Go figure.
Here is how I feel most of the time:
The same right that the government uses to ask or yet tell us what it has in mind for our own good, ought to be used on the extremely rich and cheap.
What if the people said, almost all at once, either we get treated like the prosperous Americans that we are or we stop paying taxes.
Ask the wealthy to bail out America from its debts and get paid over many life times in minute installments. Funding wars that can only bring us to rip each others throats out is not an option. Bringing plans that limit our health care is preposterous. Treating our citizens like they were the cause of all of this chaos is outrageous. If we are so blessed in this country, then why are we struggling just to survive. The worst of it is that this situation is not expected to abate any time soon, or within our lifetime. But it is just fine to give raises to the roman guards and their friends. Just exactly what is the name for that? The worst case of social injustice since the slavery days in America. With one fell swoop, all of our hopes and plans for future advancement has been axed. Now it isn’t should we save uncle Joe or aunt Elena , but rather lets pull the monetary plug because it is either them or us. Do you see the picture? Stay home and take some Oxycodone and save the wealthy the money for that costly operation! That fine good ole all American, (strike that) great American citizen. Surely their interest is more important. I would rather share my food and money with my poor neighbor than be rich at their expense and life. Sharing food and water amongst ourselves, even if just for a while, beats hogging it for myself only to live a few more weeks.
That is me, and now you know. Why is it that we have been blinded to what is going on? We are no better off, nor do we expect to be any time soon, than the people we used to give charity to. And all this, right here in ‘America.’
Obama, find your way back to the people of the USA, Washington does not feel the impact and is not representative of everywhere else.
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Thank you ranter,
you said so much with so much substance
as do Gavrielle and UkWales.
Interesting stuff, that is fun and relevatory instead of insulting (intelligence) and negative (urs is neutral and therefore definitely interesting to read).
Just an observation. Alot said and alot communicated.:)
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Oh and no offense, to Republicans, independents, democrats and others ...venting or thinking aloud can be hurtful.
Watch what you think, you might hurt somebody, is not something that a parent says to their child.
Tho, I have heard that it IS dangerous to think, you might end up saying THAT thought :)
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Stellar, sometimes I just want to scream!
Sometimes
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"dissemble no more! I admit the deed! --tear up the planks! here, here! --It is the beating of his hideous heart!"
THE TELL-TALE HEART
by Edgar Allan Poe
1843 "Villains!" I shrieked,
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/POE/telltale.html
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For MA2
What makes you think with wings and harp
He floats around heaven having a lark
The mischief he caused and time will tell
Sam Adams in the after life, ain't done so well
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MA
" I never said anything about medical costs. We were talking about why the economy collapsed. "
I know you didn't say anything about medical costs. you are too busy screaming europe this and that to notice the real world.
Those medical costs were what caused the economy to collapse.
But fools like you forget that bank forclosures were PRE ceded by medical bills going up at rates way above inflation.
Those houses thrown into foreclosure started dropping the house prices around them.
It Started at the Hospitals.
But fool spend a lot of time ignoring that fact.
And fools like you who have no honesty have probably been misrepresenting the truth for your own profits while you scream ,fanny mac.
Carry on Ignoring the medical costs part in this collapse and the world will say "why invest in a country that cannot invest in itself."
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ranter Why not on Clinton's watch.
Clinton had tried to mess with health care. they were not about to jack their prices up to start the ream under that leadership but waited to see the compliant and soft on allowing the rich to fleece the country Bush take over at which stage they were told
"have at it buddies lets make money"
When the finance arms of those hospitals saw they could bankrupt families and get houses for near free they jumped.
to much they ruined their own cash cow. like the parasites they are.
If they had been more saprophytic they might have carried on milking the cow for ever.
They weren't
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To MagicKirin
1) RE: use of teleprompter
You object to Obama's use of a teleprompter. Does this objection extend to previous presidents?
2) You've mentioned in the past that Obama has racist supporters. If a racist supported your views, would it devalue your posts?
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Fluffy:
Ok, but you do know that many of those people are shareholders of the medical business empire. So that either way the win. It is like the insurance companies that offer coverage in a dry place and if it ever rains, they cry out 'reform'.
In effect the higher costs would be justifies all by themselves and people (most)would be glad to pay. Under the guise of helping the people they sabotage their own success and then they get paid twice. Once from the government in the form of bailouts, and then again from limiting lawsuits in the way of tort reform. not to mention higher profits by discouraging so called frivolous lawsuits. There is a fraternal partnership(not publicly reported) between high ranking members of government and private enterprise, that there is no way for one member to point to the other because if they did so, it would be a lose lose position.
We, the underclass(with regard to money only)wouldn't be able to find a safe haven, even if we moved to Venus.(The Planet). Only one thing would have made the difference and it is now too late for it. The complete failure of the companies in control right now and the disbanding of buffer corporations which advance wealth to the troubled companies. That won't happen now. The giant boulder must continue to move, the ones who fall under it will be crushed by the movement. They will serve as grease to ease the friction caused by the heat of motion and continuity. No one wants to yell, hey, stop the rock, my friend just fell under it!
So, they will live with the remorse and count their shares later, when the job is done. The cow was on steroids and had a lesion within its bowels, it was producing only 3 quarts of milk. Time for a new cow.
One time a bull destined for the slaughter jumped out of line and tried to run away. It was caught later, but due to its remarkable feat which never had happened before, it was spared the death sentence and was allowed to roam freely till its death. (true story)
Also the pyramid builders wouldn't stop a moving stone since it took great effort by many, many workers(slaves and paid slaves)just to get it to begin its journey.
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Americans are the most generous than any other country.We have always taken care of our own. Obama's stimulous bill has not helped but just a few. We are outraged at all of his trillion dollar bills, we do not want Govt. sponsered health care,or Cap and Trade. Conservatives are fighting mad. We will not vote for any Democrat that does that. Wait til 2010! We are being treated horribly by the Democrat,and even me. I am a Democrat but have the good sense to see thru, this man. I did not vote for him,because he is not worthy of being President, he is a Chicago thug.
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Liberals in America love trashing our country, the majority of us will get it back to what the Constitution is, in better shape than ever,and God is important in our lives.The Liberals are a tiny part of the USA. Do not even listen to those Radicals. America is still a great country, as soon as we kick out the crazies in DC.Seems as if the Radicals do nothing but complain. We do not want any more trillion dollar bills,to come thru. Obama's is the worst President, and deceived so many people. I was not one of them, judge a man by the people he has around him,like Bill Ayers,Jerimiah Wrigt and all of the Progressives in the White House. I am tired of the remarks trashing our country, look at your countries, first. We helped you in WW1 and ww11.
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239, 240 -
With you on the job, no one else needs to bother trashing the USA; you're setting a fine example of a "typical" American. Has it ever occurred to you that the opposite of progressive is regressive? You might want to look that up.
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239, 240 Dusty1776.
I do not recall having seen you post here before, although some of what you write is so familiar, it sounds almost scripted.
There are some very bright, very thoughtful, very well educated people who post here. Not, perhaps, as many as formerly. But still.
There are some people here who are extremely broadly read in the humanities, and in history in particular.
Although we have some trolls, and some people with plainly evident personality disorders, by and large the discussion here is just that: discussion.
Sit down, have a drink of tea or coffee, and then go back and read your posts again. Do they really look like the postings of a thoughtful or educated person?
No, they don't, do they?
Do they look like postings that are going to be persuasive?
No, they don't, do they?
So what is the point of making postings like that?
We have our disagreements here, but by and large the posters here are not mean, and even the grouchy ones have a streak of friendliness and goodness inside.
If you post a well structured and interesting argument, you will always find there are people here who will engage that argument. But please keep in mind that most of the people who participate in the discussions here are not idiots. Don't write to them as if they are.
Yours,
IF
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Let's take the first posting:
"239. At 11:24pm on 02 Nov 2009, Dusty1776 wrote:
Americans are the most generous than any other country.We have always taken care of our own. Obama's stimulous bill has not helped but just a few. We are outraged at all of his trillion dollar bills, we do not want Govt. sponsered health care,or Cap and Trade. Conservatives are fighting mad. We will not vote for any Democrat that does that. Wait til 2010! We are being treated horribly by the Democrat,and even me. I am a Democrat but have the good sense to see thru, this man. I did not vote for him,because he is not worthy of being President, he is a Chicago thug."
_______
For a start, without being a grammar or spelling troll, we all make mistakes in typing, but you might want to proof-read your posts.
_______
"Americans are the most generous than any other country.We have always taken care of our own."
In my experience Americans are very generous, and particularly to strangers in need. But why contradict that statement, which resonates with the fundamental goodness of America, with a statement that is inherently small minded and selfish: "We have always taken care of our own"?
________
"Obama's stimulous bill has not helped but just a few. We are outraged at all of his trillion dollar bills, we do not want Govt. sponsered health care,or Cap and Trade."
Ok. But haven't the majority of the beneficiaries been Republicans, or financial institutions owned or controlled overwhelmingly by Republicans? Is it possible that the reason that the House and Senate passed these bills was that there was a financial crisis worse than anthing since the Great Depression?
What would you have done instead?
Would you have preferred that the banking system collapse? Would that have been a better alternative?
Do you really want to live through 1931 again?
My parents and grandparents lived through those times, and carried the marks of that experience ever after.
Do you really think it is "Obama's" stimulus bill? Do you really believe that the need for those drastic financial measures can be laid at the feet of a man who became President on January 20, 2009?
_______
"We are outraged at all of his trillion dollar bills"
There is only one. To suggest that there is a plurality is simply wrong.
_______
"We do not want government sponsored health care"
Well, first, that is a bit of a non-sequitur, since the health care bill has nothing to do with the economic stimulus package.
Second, why do you care whether it is government sponsored or not? Is not the issue whether Americans have effective health care, at reasonable cost?
Are you aware that virtually every other major industrialized country has public health care, and not one of them pays anything like as much as America? Their results are just as good overall, and whereas America spends 16 % of GDP on health care, (and leave 45M Americans without coverage), other comparable countries typically spend 7 - 11% of GDP on healthcare, and yet provide coverage for all of their citizens.
Are you aware that virtually any publicly funded system, even a relatively inefficient one (assuming, conservatively, that America can't figure out how to run a public healthcare system as efficiently as any other developed nation) would save the average US family roughly $ 5000. per year over the present privately funded insurance system?
Of all the systems on offer, the existing private insurance scheme is by far the most expensive, it offers the poorest breadth of coverage, it creates a de facto import subsidy working against American manufacturers; and it creates perverse incentives in employment practices.
_______
"...,Or cap and trade."
Well, again, this is a non-sequitur, since the stimulus package has nothing to do with cap and trade.
At a basic level, do you not recognize and accept that it is a basic postulate of economics that the price of economic activities should capture their negative externalities?
If you accept that basic premise, then what approach would you prefer to the problem of uncaptured economic costs of fossil fuel combustion? Cap and trade allows the real economic price of those externalities to be found in the marketplace, and permits the burden of solving the externality to flow to the lowest cost alternative. This is fundamentally sound economics.
Not entirely surprisingly, it is an approach that has been advanced by the ecomonists at the University of Chicago, one of the leading free-market schools of economics in the world.
Have you got a better idea?
_________
"Conservatives are fighting mad."
Well, I am an economic conservative by any reasonable measure, and you clearly do not speak for me.
There are people who call themselves Conservative, but who are just plain mad. We've seen that before. In good measure they are the very people who got us into this mess.
_________
"I did not vote for him,because he is not worthy of being President, he is a Chicago thug."
"A Chicago thug"?
Hardly. John McCain, who I rather like, and whose values I share, called him "a decent family man". As far as I can tell, in John McCain's value system, "a decent family man" is about as high a compliment as John McCain can pay another man. President Obama is an high level academic with friends and professional colleagues at the University of Chicago, Harvard, and elsewhere. He is about as far from being a thug as any President back to FDR or Wilson.
To suggest, following the manifestly unqualified GW Bush that President Obama is not "worthy" of being President is rich.
__________
Moving on to 240:
"240. At 00:55am on 03 Nov 2009, Dusty1776 wrote:
Liberals in America love trashing our country,..."
___________
I have really strong doubts that you know what the word "Liberal" means. I am an economic Liberal, in the purest and most classical sense. A Liberal is someone who believes in the function of markets, and prefers that state intervention in the markets be kept to a minimum. That puts me fairly far to the right of center on the political spectrum.
The abuse, and misuse of the term "Liberal" as some kind of insult in American political discourse is, with respect, a fairly sure sign that the speaker is utterly ignorant of the meaning of the word, and of much else. It is a habit that merits contempt. Before you use the term again, you might try learning what its origin is, and what it means.
_________
"... the majority of us will get it back to what the Constitution is, in better shape than ever,and God is important in our lives."
Well, when was the last time you actually read the US Constitution? We see a lot of posting like this here, and almost invariably the people who shout about the Constitution do not know what they are talking about. If you have a constitutional argument to make, quote the article of the Constitution to which you refer, and cite any supporting case law. Otherwise people are likely to infer you don't know what you are talking about.
Please keep in mind that the US constitution was written by leading thinkers of the Age of Reason. They were "free thinkers". By most measures, they would be considered atheists in the present day context. They would certainly not be evangelical Christians by any stretch of the imagination. The US has "Freedom of Belief" for the purpose of keeping God out of the Legislature, the Executive branch, and the courts.
________
"Obama's is the worst President, ..."
Oh, for Pete's sake.
The man has been in Office nine months. He followed the worst President since Buchanan, if not of all time. Give it a rest.
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#240 Dusty
America is still a great country, as soon as we kick out the crazies in DC.Seems as if the Radicals do nothing but complain.
Oh really! You don't say! It's a good job you right whiners don't complain?
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IF - 242,243
Good posts .... I hope your seeds of knowledge don't fall on stony ground!
As ever you are a calm voice of reason in a maelstrom of hatred and lunacy.
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IF well said. in them posts 242 243
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238 ranter.
i agree with that.
;)
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@ InterestedForeigner
Nicely done.
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InterestedForeigner, Gavrielle_LaPoste , fluffytale, and RomeStu - I look forward to continued intelligent posts. Thank you.
And thank you my fellow Americans. In the land of the ignorant and misinformed, TV news reigns supreme. These forums exist because of us. Yes, I am ignorant and misinformed about many things. I find the truth in places like this from people that know.
God bless America, land of the free, home of the brave where you can share your opinion with millions, no matter how wrong it is.
The stimulus, which I was never asked to vote on, was the US Government paying off debt that some foreign countries called due. We had to pay the margin call that other people created with greed and negligence.
The spinning plates known as the US economy require constant attention or they will all come crashing down. October 08 saw some of those plates fall. Obama made more plates (stimulus dollars Let's just print more money) and replaced the ones that fell. No real new jobs were created. Businesses did not see a sudden increase in consumer spending. The foreign investors didn't see a rise in the dollar. The unemployment rate has risen since Oct 08. Over 35% of the unemployed have been out of work for six months or more. Our economy just repaired some damage that was done by greed.
I believe that if the taxpayers are required to provide the money for an economic stimulus that we get a check to do with as we please. The Feds were able to provide a check for taxpayers in '08, why not provide a BIG check in '09. It is my belief that if every American TAXPAYER were given, $5072.46 (700 Billion dollars div by 138 Million taxpayers)we would spend it. Some would save it, helping build the bank's deposits. Most of us would spend it frivolously, just like the tax rebate checks.
The stimulus was not about stimulating the economy. The stimulus, TARP, whatever the Feds call it, was for the purpose of covering the fallout from greedy companies and a few despicable individuals like Bernie Madoff ($50Billion (that we know of) of other people's money)
Of course, this is an unrealistic expectation, but it would sure be nice.
America is not like other countries. We don't care if we stay in debt. So what if we owe you money. Try and collect it.
Just look at the current average consumer debt.
Our Government wants to keep us just as we are.
We drive our SUV's to the drive-thru to get dinner on our way to pick up the kids at daycare, so we can go home and watch our 64" Hi-Def flat-screen TV sitting on our financed furniture in our re-financed home while trying to figure out how to buy the newest gadget with maxed out credit cards.
Cut me a check for $5k and I will do my part to keep the retail businesses open. I will buy groceries. I will fill up my gas-guzzling truck. Yes, give me money that I am paying for with my taxes and I will be happy. Take that money and give it to some company I don't do any business with and allow them to cover their losses, and give HUGE bonuses to the top people, well, that just don't set right with me.
Most Americans, Right or Left, feel the same about one thing:
Don't impose your will on me unless I give you permission.
That's what most of the debate over healthcare, or most any government program is rooted in. Who has the final say?
Let's hope it is still the voters and that democracy lives on strong in our great nation.
-Pat
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Mark Mardell:
It is a pandemic that the United States is going to deal with...With
the ongoing problems of homelessness and its side effects....
=Dennis Junior=
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