Why 'adolescent America' has to grow up
A fascinating new study looks at whether the US will remain the dominant superpower in the next century.
Many of James Kurth's recommendations are pretty mainstream, suggesting that America's dominance has been built on military power which itself is dependent on economic power. He points out that this has been based not so much on industrial strength as constant innovation. He says that to continue this into the future, America has to emphasise research into green and bio tech, and new medical and health treatments.
This emphasis on the future of technology pretty much mirrors the priority of the Obama administration which also stresses medical research. I am hearing that some executives of medical companies are arguing the administration is undermining its own objectives by taxing just such products.
But that's a digression. Kurth's most striking argument is that it's time for America to grow up. He directly challenges the idea that America benefits from "soft power" - the worldwide appeal of its ideals and culture. He says the projected culture is adolescent and damaging:
"It is usually forgotten that this popular culture is chiefly popular with the young - particularly those young who are still irresponsible, rebellious and feckless...If American leaders want to lead the leaders of other countries, they will have to act like mature adults, not like the attention-seeking celebrities of American popular culture."
Perhaps he's just spotted the difference between the heartland and TV-land. In my short time here, I've been struck by the tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity of much of American society compared to its rather more free-flowing image abroad. But is Prof Kurth right that it is time for America to put away childish things?
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As a newcomer to America, I'd like to hear more about your impressions. I'm puzzled about the "tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity" you see, as these are NOT words I would use to describe American society!
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The USA has around 180 bases around the world so I suppose that makes them a super power. If the US public got to see the books on the costs of that lot they might just decide that healthcare at home is money better spent. The way things are going though with computer technology etc the winners in the end may be those who can emasculate all the weaponry with a computer rather than anti missile systems. Who? Well China springs to mind as well as Russia. Just to see how excited the US got over a simple UK hacker shows just how sensitive the issue is. I read that there's lots of ways to skin a cat.
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Well i would question your last point about the conformoty of america culture. I would say the diversity is one our hall makrs. And certanatly if you compare Europe where new ethnic groups have trouble assimilating on comfortably joining society. even llok at Belgium where the two main ethnic groups can't get along.
Kurth's point seems to be the U.S should not push it's ideals around the world, that could be argued, but I would argue that we have a more realistic view of the world comparted to many place especially Europe and the Middle East.
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"But is Prof Kurth right that it is time for America to put away childish things?"
And with that Mr Mardell, we will see the 'pro- ultra democratic' pundits and people burn your and Prof Kurth's effigies for trying to dictate terms (albeit cleverly and very subtly) to the American nation. Even when those 'terms' may in a variety of other places be referred to as 'wise advise' or the not so common, 'common sense'.
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The problem arises when anyone assumes there is a homogeneous American culture, or Canadian culture for that matter. North America is incredibly diverse and so is the outlook of its people. To think there is one "American" attitude or POV is like thinking there's one "European" perspective.
I think the projected American culture is damaging. As a Canadian in the Middle East, I see the attitude people have towards Americans and it isn't always pretty. It's also often based on pop culture rather than any real understanding. Americans are all bullies, cowboys and thugs in many minds.
Sorry MagicKirin, can't agree that you have a more realistic view of the world. There wouldn't be so much international bad will toward the US if you did.
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It's not just America that needs to grow up - most of the Western world behaves like a spoilt adolescent that doesn't want to hear "no" for an answer and, like many children, just wants more toys, more food, more travel, more growth as though though our natural 'department store' had an infinite warehouse. The sense of responsibility to our planet, which would be the sign of a mature society is mostly sadly lacking everywhere we look. Mother Earth will only tolerate so much. As Mark Adams said: "We are, by any honest assessment, a race of little children, running around the planet with far too much power and not nearly enough maturity. We're like a band of infants with flamethrowers.".
Oh, and the inference at the start of the article stopped short of something fundamental when you said "... suggesting that America's dominance has been built on military power which itself is dependent on economic power." And following 'power' it should say 'which is itself dependent on fossil fuels'. This is something the world will be waking up to in the next decade at most.
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Although this article makes some very salient points, I think in reality things are much more complex. The professor seems to overlook the commercial basis for much of American culture; de Tocqueville spotted this nearly 2 centuries ago, and it is still a dominant cultural force- or, if anything, is even stronger since the advent of the electronic media, and sophisticated advertising.
American mass culture as a result has focused on the "lowest common denominator"- with some exceptions, of course, the emphasis is on what sells best, and it isn't always the best quality. So we end with Wal-Mart and McDonald's capturing crowds through a simple formula of low cost. And sex sells, as much or more than the image of youth.
But increasingly since the 70s, we've seen an atomization of the culture, at least internally- do your own thing has become a mantra. Despite the way the two party system forces us into either-or choices, we're not a Red State/Blue State nation- we're a nation of every shade and color.
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ref #5
Sorry MagicKirin, can't agree that you have a more realistic view of the world. There wouldn't be so much international bad will toward the US if you did.
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Whats unrealistic? Ignoring terrorism and intolerance will make it go away. That we need to look at alternative energy, that the U.N is totaly inefective? That Ilsmamic facism is the main problem in the middle East and Southeast Asia?
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It is true that there is something that feels energetically adolescent about American culture, to a European visitor. I have lived twelve years in the US, off and on at different times over the last forty years, and have always been impressed by the energy, openness and self confidence of the society compared to my own. The economy's capacity to innovate and create anew is definitely related to the "spirit of adolescence". They seem to be two sides of the same coin. Lose one and lose the other.
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America does seem to have an adolescent obsession with oil. If the US wants to be the power car of the global economy in the 21st century it needs to wean itself off the stuff. To put it crudely (pardon the pun) when the US economy starts growing again so too will the price of oil, which of course, is likely put the economy in reverse gear again. She, IMO, needs to be at the forefront of new green technology.
The US is already showing signs of potentially leading in the high-capacity battery market - vital for electric cars. This new green technology may need Federal or State help to invest in this. Critics may call this 'socialism', but the US Govt already supports many areas of US big industry and has done for years - so maybe a bit of growing up is required.
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As others have noted, there are vast differences in which part of the US you go. In point of fact the country is very much like several countries. Toss in the classes and you have too much to call a "culture". Try contacting migrant workers for real generosity. NYC is a very friendly place. Just stand on a corner with a map looking lost. Marin County CA is called "the bubble" and most of the people there are "bubble headed" but very nice. Avoid Arizona. Your accent would target you. Lost Angels says it all. Terrible place to try to move about in. Oddly, the northeast is very like the northwest, might be the weather. In New England they are friendly but closed, in Kentucky and Indiana they are friendly and open. Only the nobility are consistent: money. They will ask you what your watch cost, what you make for a living, how much that costs... sad, really but it's all they think of...oh and sex.
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Being impartial on the issue, I have myself lived in the Middle East for 18 years and have only recently moved away. I do agree with delphus1234 as to the image of America in the middle east.
At MagicKirin, my own views about "Whats unrealistic? Ignoring terrorism and intolerance will make it go away. That we need to look at alternative energy, that the U.N is totaly inefective? That Ilsmamic facism is the main problem in the middle East and Southeast Asia?" being immaterial (as I intend to keep my impartiality), what a lot of people do not realize that shouting out views and ideals are not necessarily compatible with every target audience. From the point of view of the Middle East, most of the locals are employed, wealthy, safe and have abundance of oil. How can you suggest to them they are not? Not all but the same can be said for Southeast Asia.
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Yes Magickirin, most of what you say is unrealistic.
Islamic facism? So you're just grouping the facists (the nazis???) with terrorists?
South East Asia's main problem is Islamic facism huh?
Want to try again?
You have a very simplistic take on the world.
The UN is ineffective? Maybe because it's budget is tiny and it's trying to solve the entire world's problems.
It's not like the US has done such a great job in solving problems in the last decade or so. What with all the wars and economic crises and stuff.
Maybe it's time we gave the UN another go at it?
Maybe they would have concentrated on catching the criminals from Saudi Arabia who caused all the problems, instead of invading Iraq. Good move that one.
But it was all about terrorism right? Nothing to do with one of the world's largest oil reserves being conveniently located beneath the Iraqi desert.
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Growing up is precisely what the US should not do. Growing up is what the UK did in the late 19th century. It turned the most vibrant country in the world into the mindset of a conceited superpower - something it still hasn't lost even as the world has moved on.
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The current state of affairs here in America is due to precisely the kind of "growing up" that leftists foreign and domestic have preached for nearly four decades. Out-of-touch academicians like Kurth and the politicians who buy into their delusions are the reason we're on the verge of losing superpower status. Our leaders have sold us out completely: constantly making compromises with potential enemies who never honor their end of the deal; forcing Americans to accommodate wave after wave of illegal immigrants, most of whom are career criminals; putting robber barons in charge of the very agencies that are supposed to regulate their industries! America's greatest enemy is not the suicide bomber or the swine flu - its the fifth column called Washington DC.
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It is a damn indictment of the intelligence and wisdom of much of the world if people can't see that American popular media is entertainment, not a accurate essay of American culture.
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I think that Europeans watch too much American movies and t.v. After the war, my aunt related this story about a European who was visiting the US. My aunt suggested she should go out west because there was much to see. The European gasped and said aren't you afraid of the Indians? Sadly, this is a true story. Unfortunately, much of what the world knows about America is what they get from the movies and tv. Even you Mr. Mardell, seem to be taken aback at what you found here.
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I couldn't agree more with bishopkingpawn -- I'm shocked that Mr. Mardell would say that he sees "the tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity of much of American society." This description certainly wouldn't ring true to most Americans.
Where are you living, Mr. Mardell? Perhaps you could mention this in a future post...If you're staying in Washington and moving in political/diplomatic/journalistic circles, you may be seeing a very different culture than the ones most Americans live in.
Others have mentioned that American culture varies widely, and it's true that New England, the South, the Midwest and the West all have their own cultures and mores (and many subgroups in each). But overall there are a few distinctly American traits. They include optimism, friendliness, a certain naivete, a belief that one can get ahead with hard work, a belief that one can reinvent oneself, a belief in new ideas.
Yes, our popular culture presents an awful image of the US, in ways that most Americans don't realize. But we'll continue to be "adolescent" -- naive, hopeful, and a bit self-centered -- because it's a deeply ingrained part of our nature. (De Tocqueville's book is still the best one for understanding American ideas and behavior.)
Mr. Mardell, I hope that you'll have the chance to get out and see more of the US. Why not take that great American tradition -- a road trip -- and spend two or three months poking around the corners of this country?
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If we were childish as the good doctor says,
then all of our enemies would be toast a long time ago.
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ref #12 and 13
Lets talk about how woamn have it so great in the Middle East. Or if you are a follower of sunni vs Shia? Let's talk about the bombingsin India the repression and intimidation the Tailban use in Afghanastan and Pakistan. And how they killed a woman because she dared to think she could lead.
As far as the bogus oil claims for going into Iraq. do you know which country got the first contract? China.
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I don't know about buttoned-down. On the basis of long experience, Americans tend to be open and welcoming.
On the technology point, it is folly for government to try to pick winners and losers. Let inventors try their hand where they wish. Many will fail, some will succeed. The right to try and be judged on the merits in the marketplace is one of America's greatest strengths.
The overwhelming majority of those successes will come in fields other than electronics, pharmaceuticals and biotechnology. Most will seem rather mundane. But a dollar earned and a job created in a mundane industry are just as valuable as anywhere else.
The one shared characteristic? Technological innovation blossoms where the owners can reap the benefits of their insights. The US has gone through a period of eight years of administrative vandalism where, for example, religious dogma was permitted to trump science; the patent office was run by a regime hostile to inventors and their rights. President Obama seems already to have taken steps to undo at least some of this damage.
In all of these things, we tip the scales in our favor by improving our education, and working hard.
The decline of education in America over the last half century has been a national disaster of the first order. America now has a President (and First Lady) who clearly value education. Let's hope this is a turning point. It is long, long past time for America's parents to make decisions in the school system, not the teachers' unions.
Raw intelligence, and all the study in the world aren't enough by themselves, either. Mark Twin wrote that many people fail to notice when opportunity knocks because it tends to be dressed in coveralls. "American Ingenuity" and "Good Old American Know-How" have a fair bit to do with plain old-fashioned hard work. Sometimes people seem to forget that.
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#14 brokenground
I can think of many words describing Victorian Britain and 'vibrant' isn't one of them! Britain's loss of Empire was due to its over-expansion, superiority complex, and fighting of wars it couldn't afford. So I would argue that Britain's decline was more due to it not growing up!
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Maturity is what you make it to be. Sweden and many other places with strong social nets are small enough and homogeneous enough to make it work. The US is 300 million people across an entire continent. There are distinct differences between Connecticut and California, between Florida, West Virginia and Iowa, etc. ....whether it is jobs, climates, or people's attitudes toward themselves or family. The majority of people are indeed interested and curious about the world (converse to a few radio hosts or rural yahoos who tend to dominate some forms of televisio. They just do not care to see it imposed on themselves. But if immaturity means we impose our values on others without understanding their culture and history, well then that's another issue, and one which doomed Bush from 9/11/01 onward.
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The biggest threat to our future and our privileged position in the world is not Islam, the spread of socialism throughout Latin America or commies in Cuba, but the emergence of China as the new dominant economic superpower and one with enough firepower to limit aggressive overtures to nothing more than feeble discourse.
While we spend 13% of our budget on "defense" China is actively engaged in industrial modernization, re-building their infrastructure, improving education and their standard of living at a time when we can not afford to provide healthcare to millions of Americans because a public system would be too expensive...while we spend a trillion dollars in ridiculous crusades that should have never taken place.
We do need to grow up, and we better do it fast or we will be so far behind we will never catch up. Our infrastructure is crumbling, the few industrial sectors we still have are in desperate need of state-of-the-art technology, innovation and investment, our healthcare and education systems are inadequate to meet the challenges of the 21st century and too expensive to maintain, our dependance on foreign oil is unsustainable, and our dependence on credit and our mounting debt preclude us from pursuing the goals we need to tackle to remain a superpower.
We are, indeed, the dominant military superpower, but barring a pervasive desire to end life on Earth using our military might to its full potential it is difficult to imagine what that would achieve unless, of course, the hardcore neocons and special interests boys that call the shots behind the scenes are among those earnestly pursuing the elusive goal of finding 100 virgins in the afterlife.
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mindxavierbloggz has it right in his/her penetrating analysis, but is widely off the mark in counting US bases--there are over 750 worldwide. Chalmers Johnson is big on this subject, and has the full chart on what he predicts as the US 'Nemesis'. Can he possibly be wrong? Can US neo-liberal hubris be right, and succeed in world hegemony as no empire ever has?
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I'm always puzzled about one fact of the way the US sees itself especailly the way US contributors to these blogs see the US. No one ever seems to mention what is, in my opinion, the greatest contribution the US has made to the world and that must be music and films. Ok we all hate it when Hollywood tries to rewrite history and the majority of US citizens seem to get the their history from Hollywood but we can cope with that, we just tell you you are wrong. Music is the single biggest contribution the US has made to the World, thank you and keep doing it please.
Just a little aside to MagicKirin. Magic I think you will come to find that cultural and linguistic diversity is Europe's greatest strength and even if Belgium separates into two halves I am certain both halves will stay as part of the EU. You see splitting apart like that doesn't really matter anymore, the EU actually allows for more diversity not less. I can see Scotland leaving the Union with England but I'm pretty sure that if they do they will remain part of the EU.
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I have always thought that repect for different cultures was key not only to understanding how to deal with them, but also how to communicate our positions on matters in a more effective manner. One of the weaknesses of our political process is the tendancy to change our posturing toward the international community based on the ideology of the administration. On this one I do believe that the Obama Admin has a more correct stance on the respect issue. The US is also on the downward slope of its position as a "superpower". While it will remain in the top five, expect it to be supplanted or equalled over the next half century by at least two other powers. Hopefully we will have learned how to deal more effectively & consistently with the concepts of powersharing & world policing.
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As a U.S. citizen and also having lived in Europe, I am struck by what the article does not say and that should be obvious about America, while at the same time being in complete agreement with its conclusion that it needs to grow up. For the most part, Americans are grossly undereducated and narcissistic, which means it is stuck in its adolescents and is unlikely to grow up, anytime soon. Some good things happen, never-the-less, but, for the most part, there is no societal evolution, hence, fundamental issues are never dealt with in a responsible way, if at all. Although this has already been mentioned, America is steeped in classicism with an extremely weak central government controlled by special interests, so it rules by minority politics. The dynamics are played out, over and over again, sometimes in the most interesting ways, such as with the health care issue, when people without health insurance coverage are, strangely enough, opposed to it, and this phenomenon is based more on confusion than being parsimonious. In adolescence, facts are secondary to name calling and chest pounding, which is basically what we hear on most issues. Finally, what is most obvious about America is greed and this, of course, defies skills needed to work together and is the hallmark of American economics. The country is a mess but everyone seems to like it that way, and the superficial "niceness and kindness" of some groups, which may be refreshing or surprising to outsiders, is totally offset by their active and relentless religious oppression of other people and thoughts, to which there seems to be no end in this country. In spite of all this, we manage. It may be a nice place to visit and it may produce some nice inventions, but, currently, it is a hell hole in which to live. It lacks a sole, meaning, organizing principal, which organisms require to evolve.
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RSHAWK wrote that American pop culture image is awful, if our image is so bad can you explain why when I travel and I see our culture copied every where. From Middle East to Asia and Europe. So if is so awful why people love it. European have long way to go to understand AMERICA . With DARK PAST THAT EUROPE LEFT in Middle East and Africa and so on America looks like a child yes.
For last 500 years of European empires left these continents in terrible state, now that you lost your power you complain about America, please.........
I leave in Europe I saw how Europe has their class system, and how they use new immigrant and when the economics is bad they talk about send them back where they come from and so on…..
And how you institutions are corrupted. When 23 years old son of French president wants to become a president of the largest company in France and talk abut British parliament corruption and Italy so on………. no we don’t want to be like you guys.
Yes corruption exist everywhere when is money, but not in deep government institutions. Anyway what is the true story we all act similar when is power only complain is when others have the power we complain. Just last word when I travel to other countries and meet real people in the street even is middle east when you say you are American people smile and shake your hand, because in reality with all the difference they know differences between American and past European culture. Thank you.
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#3 Magic
Well i would question your last point about the conformoty of america culture. I would say the diversity is one our hall makrs. And certanatly if you compare Europe where new ethnic groups have trouble assimilating on comfortably joining society. even llok at Belgium where the two main ethnic groups can't get along.
I think that the two ethnic groups in Belguim do get along despite being relatively quite different. What they want is more self-determination - towards a more de-centralised State. As you are an American I don't think you should be knocking that.
Anyway, assimilation is IMO inherently racist. It's like saying 'Jews are welcome here, just as long as you don't act so Jewish!'
Multiculturalism is still the way to go I say. There's been a lot of debate in the UK about this recently (as you may know), but has more to do a general feeling of powerlessness due to Governments not being interested in the opinions of their electors. This has been brewing for decades.
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I agree America needs to grow up, and as in American I at least am not ashamed to say so when overseas as I was during the previous 8 years. Obama is certainly a step in the right direction if he can get anything done with the obstructionist just say no Republicans that equate progress with nothingness, but I digress. I think in addition to America and all oof Western countries to grow up with America the biggest bully and most delinquent, I want to bring attention to the behavior of the needy and less developed world.
Speaking of growing up, the underdeveloped world is shameless in this regard. Well most of them gladly want and indeed, sometimes insist it from the developed world they continue to allow rampant bribery and theft throughout the business processes that called together make up their commercial sector. In addition to this, they allow violence both internally and currently to go unchecked. Income in the dawn of the 21st century, nations of all sizes settle their differences with missiles and bombs and lots of lots of dead innocent civilians. For example, I would like to sympathize with the Palestinians, but they allow certain among their citizenry to fire missiles willy-nilly over the border into Israel almost like a 5th grade science project. I would like to support Israel also, but they answer these missile calls with overwhelming violence and bulldozers with weapons sold to them by you know who, but of course they could buy them from anyone if not from the US.
Zimbabwe is a disaster truly in need of aid, but the citizenry allowed thugs backed by the government to take the food producing land away from people who knew how to farm it and create food and give it to the thugs who enjoyed the gift but unfortunately don't know how to make food with their new assets.
We have this Sudan, and looking back we have Rwanda and Bosnia Herzegovina versus Croatia. Of course I could go on and on with the Iraqis killing Iraqis, the mess that has been allowed to be created in Pakistan and Afghanistan and so on.
One final thing, and perhaps most troubling of all is that by the way we are cooking the planet. If I were to venture on how all of this will work out in 100 years I would put my money on nature creating some huge disaster that wipes out 1 billion or so people and then perhaps they will grow up.(Voice texted, please excuse errors)
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The most powerful instrument of unconstitutional, ie: illegitimate power on earth. The man takes over businesses, locks out democracy, fires private citizens, dictates "bonuses" disregarding contract law entirely, installs a racist La Raza member to the Supreme Court, nuzzles up to deadly dictators and revokes entry of allies for defending THEIR Constitution, attempts to install self professed COMMUNIST Czars, attempts to cull the ONE network he doesn't own, rolls off perfect counterfeits like he plans to wallpaper mars, has a bigger cult of personality than Hitler ever dreamed of, outright refuses vetting information about himself and it's considered rude to even ask why, (see Pravda on all this if our networks aren't anti-America enough for your taste)..
And all those who fought fascism with practically their last dearest drop of blood say "oh my, theyre so childish".
CHILDISH??!? Baby's got the fraggin GUN again, people!
GROW UP YOURSELVES!!!!!!
dominant superpower??!!!
("beautiful plumage")
AAAAAUUUGH!!!
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ref #5
Sorry MagicKirin, can't agree that you have a more realistic view of the world. There wouldn't be so much international bad will toward the US if you did.
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Whats unrealistic? Ignoring terrorism and intolerance will make it go away. That we need to look at alternative energy, that the U.N is totaly inefective? That Ilsmamic facism is the main problem in the middle East and Southeast Asia?
...That does actually prove his point!!! Islamic Facism (actually that definition by itself is wrong - see definition of facism) is not the main problem in the middle-east. There are a host of problems (and not just in that region) but there are also a host of reasons for thos problems, including "western Intervention/foreign policy" and a diabolical interferance in local politics for the last 100 years (Iran coup in 1953 etc) You obviously know very little about the history of the middle east, and I assume your main 'source' of information is your very own 'fox news'...
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ref #30
Anyway, assimilation is IMO inherently racist._____________
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Assimilation means in this not holding youself or being held as a seperate enclave. People in the U.S celebrate their ethnic culture but with few exceptions work and communicate with a wide range of people.
my first summer job my managers were an irish caucasian and a latin american.
my second I reported to a woman and a african american of the soslem faith.
sorry for any confusion you might have.
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As far as cultural contributions we should apologize for:
Reaity TV comes to mind
Which is worse than the Japanese introduction of Karoke.
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Dear MagicKirin
To quote from your post-
Kurth's point seems to be the U.S should not push it's ideals around the world, that could be argued, but I would argue that we have a more realistic view of the world comparted to many place especially Europe and the Middle East.
From where I live in the UK, the view of the world presented to me via the US is often bizarre. More realistic? Which reality are you talking about? The realism of a goody v baddie video game or the complex twists and turns of religion, money, arms, oil, cultures, and the alpha male posturing of dominant states fighting for supremacy?
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I have to agree with one of the contributors about the real enemy. And its not the USA. I know that often the USA have made decisions which seem very self centred, but hey lets be honest they get little support from the rest of the world. Russia, China and the like are very, very self centred. Any proposals put forward by the US are always viewed with suspicion, no agreements are made, the UN, well what can I say, so ineffectual. So lets look at the US for what they have achieved what they have given the world. Food, baseball, music, films, Electronics (I-pod) and on and on. I have travelled all over the states, the people are great and I don’t just mean those in the selling trade. The USA have problems like the rest of us, they make mistakes like the rest of us, but let’s be clear if it wasn’t for them our world would be a poorer place to live in.
Just think about the alternatives!!!!!
English born and bred and still living in Lancashire
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ref 36
From where I live in the UK, the view of the world presented to me via the US is often bizarre. More realistic? Which reality are you talking about? The realism of a goody v baddie video game or the complex twists and turns of religion, money, arms, oil, cultures, and the alpha male posturing of dominant states fighting for supremacy?
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I'd say the moral equvilency argument or the naive viewpoint that everything can be done through negoiation. they are groups like last century's Nazi that can't be compromised with. I would argue the belief system expoused by Iran and Al Quada and their suggorates are in the same category.
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Americans tend to think of their country as "diverse" the same way as a certain kind of Briton tends to think of his country as "important". It's more a matter of national self-image than of realistic analysis. My own impressions from visits to the USA are more in line with Mardell's observation that American society tends to be uniform and conformist.
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The obession with youth is from advertising and the targeting of expendable income. The rest, go to work every day to pay for those things for their kids or by younger adults without other responsbilities. The US has more of an aging problem than a youth problem. The relationships between government and corporations is well established and to the detriment of all, well the politicians and corporations do well. It is the rigid maintaining of power that holds everything back. It is the youthful mind that sees a better future and is willing to look at things differently. It is the stagnation that kills civilizations, not the youth. The West is stagnant and the wealthy and powerful have created a financial crisis that clearly shows that they no longer have ideas and must steal to maintain their wealth and power. After a civilization matures, it dies.
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I too agree with JPWallace and Delphus1234 while I wholeheartedly disagree with Magickirin. The European press is more open, less biased and its public a good better informed than in the United States. I lived in the Middle East for 16 years, travelled in the US and know many Americans here on mainland Europe, and more particularly, how they are percieved here and further afield. The US is less "diverse" than it is "homogenised"; in fact one would have a hard job meeting a nation more parochial.
Delphus1234's observation is correct: the US may be a "democracy" at home, but it's largely seen as a dictatorship abroad, and with good cause. Europe has a huge Muslim population with a good deal less friction and is treated with far less suspicion than it is in the US, where its image is tarnished by exaggeration and just plain fiction. With regard to US foreign policy: at the first mention of diplomacy or negotiation with the likes of say, Iran, some American pops up crying "appeasement" and dropping poor old Neville Chamberlain's name into the mix (this implying that they are somehow remotely aware of "history"), and concluding therefore that any form of political solution is nothing short of a direct collaboration with "evil". US blustering does more harm than good. Grow up.
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Winnie40 - "And its not the USA. I know that often the USA have made decisions which seem very self centred, but hey lets be honest they get little support from the rest of the world."
Coming from Britain you ought to be at least dimly aware that British soldiers are out dying in America's wars right now. Not just British, either. Believe it or not, a couple of score countries have committed forces to all of its recent wars. You might remember the outraged "Axis of Weasel" rhetoric that was thrown about when two countries overturned the natural order of things and actually refused to attack an Arab state against whom a case had been fabricated. That is not the rhetoric of a country accustomed to failure to receive support; quite the converse. Those are the words of a country that feels itself ENTITLED to support.
"Food, baseball, music, films, Electronics (I-pod) and on and on."
I think you will find that food was invented by the French, "base ball", or "rounders", has been known to the British since at least the sixteenth century, music goes back to African drumming and the Lesbian 7-stringed lute, and the integrated circuit was invented by a Japanese calculator manufacturer. I might add the Internet to your list, which was invented by Al Gore while working at CERN in Geneva.
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The problem isn't the infantization of the culture; it's the unrestrained 'free market' mantra marketed that says 'business' is the source of all productivity and it is THAT which creates jobs and wealth must therefore logically trickle down and the mass media (which is just another capitalist market) has circulated it well. It's that pyramid scheme which came close to collapsing the entire world economy, that 'capitalism' as such can do no wrong and we still don't seem to have a clue that ALL extremes are unstable.
I am 47 years old and a native of eastern North Carolina; some have mentioned the diversity present here in the States due to our hodge podge of mixed cultures. That is probably at least partially true. And having never been out of the country; I really can't fairly compare THIS country with any other.
However, what my own attention is drawn to IS in fact the presence of a tremendous number of dichotomies and disconnects within the culture that are not perhaps well or easily perceived by those that come in as outsiders and, as others have mentioned, socialized primarily with those in a certain political, social realm. We DO very definitely have different social classes here although they are not yet widely recognized as such...'we' as a people are very economically striated; the economic differences are much more invasive than race or cultural differences (though we are prone to blame our situations on those outside of our own cultures and races) and these economic classes also encourage further political and economic delineation and power; as those in the higher economic categories have a disproportional amount of clout in a republican democracy such as ours which is more and more funded by large and powerful PACS and lobbyists.
We have been most united by the saturation and populization of the culture by mass media; and that in itself has been increasingly funded by not just mass consumerism; but the presence of various types of advertisers (including PACS, lobbyists,corporations) which also affect content.
Mass media has continued in INCREASING the dichotomy of the culture; the IDEAS of which are 'sold' to those that tune in, versus any actual 'real' culture. The ideas sold are based on the flow of money and that which will increase market share. Television and cable are essentially 'piped' into our homes, the people more or less will watch what's presented and 'choose' that which is most preferable to them...much of what is presented involves the industry's idea of what will sell...and their enamourization with themselves, such as the politicians enamourizations of THEMSELVES...and the corporatists enamourizations of THEMSELVES...but ALSO what content their advertisers encourage...only in part does art imitate life, to a certain degree life begins to imitate art and the line of separation becomes less and less clear.
Nowhere is this lmore clear than on the political scene.
We are a nation of people of which the majority are actually struggling to put food on our tables and keep roofs over our heads and keep up with the "American Dream" amongst increasing competition for resources and less and less security. The mainstream mantra is that we have a 'free market' and that is good because wealth comes from the top and trickles down. However, increasing number of people are on government aid of necessity; because they cannot find a job paying a living wage and increasing numbers of people are resentful of the former. The 'news' is now increasingly editorialized; because people are so overwhelmed that they can't make sense of it all; and people are increasingly turning towards extreme ideological viewpoints that draw from the increasing fear of the future that is beginning to raise it's head in the public consciousness.
Our presence as a military power, based on economic power, is certainly a legitimate observation, imo. However, it's climb to that point hasn't been so much due to a unified culture (there isn't one in this regard, believe it or not) as due to the workings of our career politicians and lobbyists and corporations for their own gain and as pork for those states whose economies have become dependent on government military contracts, and encouragement by the political parties to get the public to back them by stoking their fear of the future while there are ever increasing expenditures in this area BECAUSE of that unification of fear whereas the rest of us are struggling too hard to keep up to give it much deep thought.
What is becoming more and more obvious through increasingly popular conspiracy theory touting shows like the Beck show, is the TREMENDOUS amount of dichotomy between the 'culture' that the mass media and politicians and statesmen want to claim about America and the fact that MOST of us don't trust a daggone ONE of them. So much so, that we will entertain conspiracy theories before we believe what those in power say.
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America is big and diverse in terms of geography and climate. The political differences are fairly small - with both Democrats and Republicans favouring a small state nation. The fact Americans can get so venemous over a small issue such as health care payment, only further supports the notion that Americans generally are apathetic, a sign of contentment.
Of course the country has its fair share (more than a fair share, many may say) of crackpots, loons, deviants, and criminals - but generally most Americans' aspirations, dreams, and tolerances are fairly similar. The country is founded on basic WASP principles - so hard work, honesty, and charity are all seen as good qualities and generally offer reward.
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Go to the places the tourists DON'T go, my friends; to the little rural towns in the Southern Piedmont, the struggling rustbelt cities, the almost endless suburban sprawl around the Cities of the Plains. Mr. Mardell is correct in referring to "the tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity" found among most Americans going about their daily -- non-televised -- lives.
The disconnect has always been between what we are and what the movies, television and other fictionalized (Citizen Genet comes to mind) accounts of America and American life make us out to be. 40 years ago, traveling abroad and identifying my home city as Chicago, I was asked if I was a gangster from Germany to the Middle East...how dumb is that? But all those old Al Capone films from the 40's and 50's were still in circulation and that was the perception of "Chicago" to everyone who hadn't been there.
I am of the opinion that our entertainment media is always going to color the perceptions of the susceptible around the world, but that isn't what Mardell or Professor Kurth were trying to get at. I think the admonition to grow up is aimed at our leaders; President Obama expressed it as well when he encouraged us to put away our childish things. It's time to cease trying to cow everyone else in the world with our guns (now THAT's adolescent...think gangs, think gangs of young terrorists, think the psychology of young testosterone-poisoned men) and to grow up into the reasoned adult status of negotiation and diplomacy...to use some of that tightly-buttoned politeness and deference we Americans are so good at using among ourselves.
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Ref #20 @ MagicKirin
While this is a significant deviation from the original topic, I am only bothering to reply because I am determined to educate readers about certain aspects that I am familiar with and clear up misconceptions.
About women in the Middle East. Barring Saudi Arabia (of which I do not have a complete picture), all of the other Middle Eastern countries do not impose the complete Hijab on women. The women in these other, relatively (to Saudi Arabia) moderate, countries are not overly bothered about these and other issues; which you would, no doubt, like to describe as "shackling" or "non democratic". As I stated to you, in general, most locals in the Middle East are content with their way of life. What *you* fail to realize (or are ignorant of), is the difference in points of view and think that yours alone trumps others including theirs. I do not know what my religion has to do with anything. Or I perhaps misunderstood what you were trying to say; nevertheless, Shiaa and Sunni Muslims have their own internal differences just like any number of Christian denominations have with each other. I repeat, I fail to see what this point has to do with anything.
On the point of India; first off, India is not an Islamic state and has made it's view on the bombings very clear and have made clear and open moves to capture and commence legal proceedings against those responsible. Do you really think the people of India are silent about it? In the months following the bombings and after international media stopped reporting about them, there was massive national debate (in India) on local news broadcasting TV channels about the whole issue from internal security to the issue of equipment available to police and counter-terrorist forces to these splinter terror organizations.
On the issue of Pakistan; it seems to me that you are totally unaware of the military campaign being carried out by the Pakistani Army in South Waziristan province and also of the prior military offensive in Swat Valley. Are you aware of the pakistani Muslim scholar Sarfraz Naeemi, who was assassinated because he was outspoken against suicide bombings and militancy? 1. You seem to be labouring under the misguided belief that the Pakistani government and people are taking the Taliban lightly.
About this anecdotal woman who was killed, could you please link me to a source of what you have read. I'm afraid that without any more information, I do not know which woman you are talking about.
About the oil contracts, are you aware that the Iraq "..Oil Ministry continues to negotiate short-term, no-bid contracts with several U.S. and European oil companies, including Exxon Mobil Corp., Royal Dutch Shell, Total SA, Chevron Corp. and BP."? 2. Could you prove to me that these "short-term, no-bid contracts" are not significant when all of them are totted up? Also, are you aware that Exxon Mobil (American Oil Company) turned down a project on the Rumaila Oil field and only then did BP and CNPC (China National Petroleum Corporation) agree to pick it up? 3.
1. BBC News, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8096776.stm
2. Cable News Network (CNN), http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/08/30/iraq.china.oil.deal/index.html
3. BBC News, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7585790.stm
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Mark:
Yes..It is time for "Adolescent" America to grow up...But, when is the
next question....
~Dennis Junior~
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America is alot of things in alot of different places throughout the world but none of these views quite match up with reality. But no place are these false images more entrenched then inside of America itself. Perhaps the rest of the world could come and "grow up" along with us. What does it mean to be "American" when I work along side someone from Puerto Rico, Kenya, Urkraine and China? Regardless of the attitudes of certain groups within the USA, "America" is simply a euphemism for "everybody". America is simply the main outpost for all the worlds international corporations. This it will remain regardless of what part of the world the people who make the decisions originate from. But as the transfer from x-th generation European to first generation "World" continues, any nationalistic tone to discussions about America would have to be viewed as complete nonsense.
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First of all, I laud Mr. Mardell for reading an American intellectual: Evangelical Protestant, professor, and notorious Conservative. One would expect to see banner-toting protesters at the studio door of this man. Do the many military bases that America has built around the globe since WWII equate to the control exercised by colonial powers, such as Britain, Spain or China? Only time will tell. It seems that the number of bases has slowly shrunk over of the past two decades.
Is America naively optimistic about the ability of people to rule themselves? America has invested heavily in South Korea and Taiwan, for example, and they seem no more given to tyranny than anyone else. Could Brazil or India be the next America? I certainly hope so. Europeans and many American intellectuals mistakenly believe that America is going down the road of European colonialism or some other page from their history, but there is no evidence that Americans intend to colonize the planet. For Americans, the dilemma is that others may actually follow the American model.
America is stagnating in its educational system and health care, but American popular culture is itself derivative of French Modernism of the late 19th century in many regards. As demographics shift, the discourse of American life is shifting. New discoveries in extraction of oil and gas are easing America's reliance on other hemispheres. The drug war in Mexico increasingly makes Central America a key region of interest. With the rise of China to dominance in Asia, America's attention (like Europe's) is shifting toward Asia. What all of this means is that a culturally maturing America will increasingly compete with Europe for Asia's attention. NATO will have to go.
As an American, I have watched Europeans grow increasingly angry at America, whether they suffered good of ill by us. As I travel Eastern and Western Europe from time to time, it strikes me that the European Union is forging a new identity that is not unlike the ideology of Americanness. Immigrants are bringing painful new questions to the continent about ethnicity and bringing exciting new ways of looking at the world too. One might even interpret the brash posturing of figures like Nicholas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel as "adolescent." Mr. Berlusconi undeniably needs to grow up in some of his sexual attitudes.
How you view us certainly is worth reflection, and we are honored by your concern. However, you might find that America-watching is a distraction from the real task of knowing yourselves. A wise European once suggested that knowing oneself is the key to life, and a wise Semite went so far as proposing that judging oneself is the key. These strike me as far more worldly-wise sources than the beeb or American cinema. Cheers!
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The worst aspect of the so-called adolescent culture of America is its terribly dysfunctional primary and secondary education.This is a ticking time bomb that would undermine America as a super power.The country has already acquired some startling characteristics of a typical third world country.Obama is of course throwing lots of money at education.But it is not going to help because the sports/entertainment dominated culture of the country is a huge,invincible beast that would swallow that money easily and become stronger.
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America's plan for Iraq post-invasion was described as intellectually bankrupt. Her aggressive foreign policy under previous Administration(s) arguably created the very groups wishing to humiliate her. There are few places in the world where the USA is even respected, let alone liked.
Thanks be to God, the States now has an Administration that is finally accepting the responsibilities and consequences of being a superpower.
Maybe Liberty is setting aside her teenage years after all?
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Of course we Americans are spoiled. I'm 60 years old, and, except for a few years living in Europe, I've lived in The US all my life. We want what we want and we want it when we want it -- which is usually NOW -- and everyone else can go to the hot place.///To give you a recent minute example, AARP Magazine, current issue, has an article about the new biologics. Biologics supposedly can keep people with cancer alive year after year but at the cost of up to $100,000 a year. One ethicist is quoted as saying that biologics should be made available to everyone with cancer, regardless of income and/or medical insurance. I had to laugh. 80% of the world's population goes to bed hungry, and this ethicist thinks that any American with cancer should be kept alive year after year at that cost?? But that's the way Americans tend to think.///As for exaggerated deference and politeness -- what US is he talking about? I've lived all over The US, though mainly in California and now New Mexico. Americans, generally, are rude and disrepectful. Mostly our young people and uneducated people. But they make up a good portion of our population.///If The US survives this recession -- and that is still not a certainty -- we -- most of us -- the middle class --our lifestyles are going to be much different. We will learn to live better (I hope) with less money and toys, accept that death is part of life's cycle, and hopefully realize that we're not the only people on earth. And, hopefully, there will be less poor and less rich, and the playing field will be a little more level.
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1 bishop. Wake up dude.
Mark Mardell. Spot on. But Then I've been calling the USA the spoilt brat for a while now.
America is still in the terrible twos
"MY this MINE. MY way ME ME"
There is no US in USA ... Somehow. . That is easy to explain when you look at that two year old.
America the land that keeps asking " so what do you think" as a question that really is asking "will you agree with my ill conceived, ill thought out rubbish ".
Anyway I personally had it to here with every Polite, reasonable american I meet" the rude obnoxious ones that are up front can be quite refreshing.
They seem more human than the general brainwashed version of generic picket fence dreaming padded rugby playing car loven fool.
Some can think. .
Polite americans are the ones to watch out for. they call you friend till you say
"i don't go to church"
(PS yea I heard it from a local just this weekend. Move go to church be a success.
move tell them you don't go to church you get called some sort of 'Exclusionary name', what ever it is. Oh they are polite won't dare hear them dodgy words.
No not them.
Not the N word, or the J word Nor the Y word, nor any others, just the NOT words.
the other words like the not one of us.
So Mark sorry for the rant ,but I reckon yude b rite if you said they was just kids and they needed to grow up a little.
I can see you trying to make out that maybe they should stay the same. but really, get real man . if they could get past the two's and get to that real fun stage it would be good for all.
Or they can pretend to be polite to each other while not thinking enough to think OF others.
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cyborgia "only further supports the notion that Americans generally are apathetic"
I think there should have been a space in there between a and P
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The analogy of adolescence is correct. The USA acts just like an adolescent trying to find himself or herself. It's all image and lacking substance ...... muscle power over brain power. Why is the USA exceptionally immature? Perhaps the answer lies in the educational system. In most mature countries students are taught to think for themselves and study philosophy, whereas in the USA youth are taught to follow their leaders and study patriotic versions of history. Very few outside the universities question the policies of their government. The vast majority live in constant fear that the "American way of life" is threatened by just about anything foreign. A revamping of the educational system is needed to begin the slow process of bringing the USA into the adult world. In the meantime the rest of the adult world has to suffer the prolonged adolescence of the USA.
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400 miles and the gas stations only sell two types of hand roll smoke . a great choice of A or B.
Even Bulgaria had more selection.
"Freedom and markets will get you all the choice you want"
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Mark,
I think Mr Kurth has it somewhat wrong. Which American leaders act like attention seeking celebrities? Not very many who want to be taken seriously. As an export product, our mass media/culture wrongly portrays the US to foreign audiences (I know this from experience) I always have to tell them: Don't believe what you see on TV! The projected culture is vastly different than the actual culture and people who spend time in the US will see that.
There are plenty of mature adults doing the right thing. We are all just boring and will never be on television. Yet collectively we are doing things for our community and country and have no time for Hollywood fantasies. We are in the Real World (the real real world, not the MTV show).
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As the saying goes, "It is nice to be important, but it is more important to be nice."
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I can't say I disagree terribly with the idea that America has a great deal of 'growing up' to do, but to be quite honest, I cannot say in full confidence that it is going to keep us from losing our place as 'number one'.
The logical deduction would be that a society whose members concentrate more on goals and the success of other people (group success vs. individual success-- Oh goodness, socialism!!!) is going to enjoy more stability overall, though perhaps very much at the cost of innovation.
On the other hand, I will say this-- if there is one thing adolescents are remarkably talented at aside from selfishness, it is defying logical expectations. So perhaps a balance might be found with the existence of both types of societies, flawed as they all are, hmm?
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I would say that the United States should remain an adolescent country in terms of its optimism, its openness, its entrepreneurial spirit, and its ability to accept new ideas and new peoples. Americans are people who are used to reinventing ourselves and that is a very healthy attitude.
Where I think we need to mature is in recognizing what we can and cannot do, and what our national and individual priorities must be. In this area, we have been greatly let down by our political classes. Our institutions are generally good, but our politicians are complete idiots, far too concerned with their own political career (and the lobbyists who fund them) to really pay attention to the people who elect them. (As a New Yorker, I would feel ashamed to lecture someone on the virtues of democracy, given the absolute corruption and incompetence of our state government in Albany.)
As a country, we need to recognize the need to prioritize spending on education, rationalization of our health care system, greater spending on our infrastructure and support for forward looking projects such as renewable energy and internet security. A more rational tax system would also help. What we should do away with are those policies that favor some over the many--the pork that politicians give to their lobbyists, the huge agricultural subsidies and other government give aways. Government (and the people) need to live within their means, control their budgets and make the hard decisions. To mature means to not live as we have before the financial crisis, with Americans borrowing well beyond their means and expecting to be bailed out by the government (I would include business in this as well--I would have rather seen the government let GM fail than to bail out that bloated corporation that can't design a decent car).
If we saw the financial crisis as the opportunity it may be, we would allow it to sweep away the excesses of the past 8 years, let us reflect without the rancor our political talking heads exhibit, and refocus our priorities to face the challenges of the future (such as how we will work with a rising China, Russia and India; deal with global warming and the challenges posed by a growing and wealthier world population).
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I'll just comment that the main reason many japanese are resistant to the idea of jury trials is that they've seen them in US movies - where they always get subverted. The main reason they have a particular view of certain ethnic minorities is that they've seen the way they act in US movies and dramas.
In short, US pop culture IS america, for much of the world. And that projected image has a big effect on how people react to it.
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In my short time here, I've been struck by the tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity of much of American society compared to its rather more free-flowing image abroad.
How can you possibly judge America by Washington and the couple of other places you've visited briefly? In the political and legal professions there is indeed very civilised behaviour; one only has to watch debates in the House of Representatives and compare it with the House of Commons. From the far "left" side of the United States I do not see anything "tightly buttoned" so perhaps Mark should visit the other side of the country before making such statements. Or possibly America is judged by Los Angeles and San Francisco, which gave rise to the free-flowing "flower children" and "flower power" culture of forty years ago. The image dies hard. Of course, Hollywood, both geographically and filmicly, adds to the impression.
I see no problem in "exaggerated deference" - it's something the United Kingdom could well emulate. We know that "New Labour" has tried desperately to level the playing field but somehow it has backfired. Since so much that is American has been imported into Britain, perhaps deference, politeness and conformity would be an improvement on what has occurred during the last generation.
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MagicKirin
Thanks for the reply to my comment.
However your reply quoted below
I'd say the moral equvilency argument or the naive viewpoint that everything can be done through negoiation. they are groups like last century's Nazi that can't be compromised with. I would argue the belief system expoused by Iran and Al Quada and their suggorates are in the same category.
Confirms my suspicions that Americans have a tendency to divide the International community outside the US into good or bad categories and this is just not a 'realistic' viewpoint. There will be good and bad politicians in Iran just as there in in any country. Also, could someone explain to me who Al-Qaeda really are? Are they Saudia Arabians fundamentalists? Well why isn't the US invading Saudia Arabia then? Are they Afgan extremists? Well, the Taliban are extreme but could they have flown planes into buildings in central NY? I think the Taliban are more likely to be unpleasant tribal bullies in an exploited part of the world doing its best to cope with poverty, religious fanaticism, and chaos. As far as Know we are not negotiating with Al-Qaeda anyway, we don't know where on this earth they are!!!
so which groups are you saying can't be negotiated with? and don't quote dear old Chamberlain at me, as MacPhellimey wrote, it is childish to say any form of appeasement is jsut asking the evil to come on in and create the apocalypse.
Why don't you come over to Europe? We are diverse and argumentative but the french and Italians have wonderful food and great fashion sense. As for us Brits, well we can make a good cup of tea and speak funny, and there's always some historical relic to look at, men marching past dressed up in the strangest clothes as well. Are we grown up with all this weight of History on our shoulders? No, I dont thinks so, but maybe a bit world weary.
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51
"Thanks be to God, the States now has an Administration that is finally accepting the responsibilities and consequences of being a superpower."
terrible two's
I think they have just started to figure out that there is a mummy and daddy that really do care. The rules are so that little kid doesn't get hurt.
Thqat not all the time are they trying to ruin it's fun.Just for the sake of it.
but it will take time to figure out that the parents are quite smart and not so easily taken in.
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60 lol "both"
if there were only two. then there could be three.
but then there are 4 and then more.
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"Adolescent America"?
Excuse me, but perhaps "Juvenile America" is more like it.
Ever since the beginning of the "Reagan Revolution", there has been a serious "dumbing down" of American education, which is the kind of social climate needed to tolerate such complete buffoons who represent America on the world stage. Ronald Reagan started it, and now we have morons such as George W Bush and Sarah Palin representing us.
Additionally, the media followed the "dumbing down" craze with a shift from primarily targeting a more discerning adult audience, to the ridiculous twaddle the USA exports today: "Reality TV", scores of stupid Hollywood blockbusters that tell a simplistic tale of "USA Good" versus "Foreign Evil". If not that, then it is a sequel to some dismal film about a comic book character, or mayve a cinematic treatment of books suitable for children.
By allowing the USA to slide into a toxic cesspool of moronic entertainment which feebly masquerades as culture, by replacing journalism with infotainment, by tolerating an educational culture which scorns the intellectual and lauds cretins such as GW Bush and Sarah Palin, the USA shows the world its face, permanently frozen in an immature state of being.
So those who doubt this, tell me why more Americans would rather talk about the Heene family with their flyaway UFO balloon hoax/fantasy, and who's more concerned about the current NFL lineup, than more pressing concerns like the literally bankrupt state of the economy, about the public healthcare debate, and about anything of substance?
If the USA wakes itself up from its stupor, courtesy of Rupert Murdoch et al, then it can focus on educating Americans to the acceptable standards of the world today, rather than needing to import intellectual talent from overseas, which enjoys higher academic standards.
All I can say now is, Wake Up America! Your delusional bubble of "USA #1" is about to pop!
If you are curious as to my nationality, I was born in the USA, and have been an American citizen all my life.
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I am an American, and I must respond to this allegation about American immaturity. There are a vast majority of Americans in this country who understand sacrifice, who understand service, who understand patience, and who understand the responsibilities of freedom. The conspicious consumers who flagrantly flaunt their extremely entitled lifestyle aren't living in the same America, nor do they give us regular folks credit for any intelligence, hard work, or the effort it really takes to make a good family. The obvious Americans live at the expense, not only of the world, but of good, hard working, and very stressed regular people who respect them not at all. This business with the big Bush Bailout is bull. The CEOs and all who made skyscraper salaries had, once upon a time, the obligation to use those monies to rectify exactly the situation which arose! Had it been sheer bad luck, it would have been one thing, but to embrace embezzlement of American enterprise and then extort encumbered Americans, is egregious. Threatening world wide financial ruin, instead of selling the 3rd, 4th, and 5th vacation home and making good on their fiduciary obligations was, I agree, very immature, and highly irresponsible. Is it simply because it was easier to take from the poor and give to the rich, a reverse Robinhood (would that be Doohnibor?). Regular Americans in this country want what people worldwide want, a safe home, good schools, enough to eat, a good society, and a culture they can respect. We are absolutely not getting any assistance or aid as jobs vanish. It was obvious that globalization would mean lower salaries in this country, as we were quite well off, and stabilizing the world meant we would need to come down some as the poorer countries came up. It is very good to see strongly developing economies in various countries around the world. It is very sad to see, though, in globalization greed wins. Globalization does not appear to be about bringing more opportunity to all of the worlds citizens. It seems to be about concentrating wealth in the hands of those who grab on to whatever they can. Just like a $750bn bailout. So, from the trenches of America, the "little people" are far more like the rest of the folks in developed countries around the world, just as self-sacrificing, family oriented, hard working, and patient. So please, do not call my entire country immature.
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bellaterra. you sweet talker you.
grrr.meow
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I certainly hope the study is a bit less purely judgmental than it sounds. As an American, I can understand the anti-American attitude that results from the pop culture values that are exported and unfortunately seen as common to all Americans, many of us find it offensive, one can only imagine how an uneducated person in a 12th century culture must see it.
However, the kind of analysis reported on the "fascinating study" presented reflects 1) the pent-up resentment towards America's economic position cut loose after the Cold-War previously checked by threats of Soviet expansion, and 2) a general knocking of non-European cultures as less sophisticated, naive, and generally "immature" because they don't conform to Europe's self-centered world views and cultural values. I love Europe, enough to see it's good points and bad, but it's sad that to distance itself from it's own flawed influences world wide for centuries the focus is all on the "childish Americans". Trying to link a populist "green" policy from a fairly corrupt administration as "maturing" speaks volumes about the real problem Europe needs to address - that of utter hypocrisy in international affairs which have been one of the chief reasons for the growth of US influence in the world, starting with having to help straighten Europe's messes in world wars and other areas of the world they meddled in.
The US is maturing, but like a child that blames itself for all it's parent's problems, it needs to start clarifying responsibility and move on from involvement in the problems of it's European parents that have stunted it for so long. As for promoting the Chinese in lieu of America, I am absolutely sure they will be as full of good will towards Europe as America once was, and come running when you need them.
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This article seems purely academic, and not totally based on reality. The comment "exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity" really surprises me, and makes me think that the author spent most of his time at a University hanging out with professors. The Univ folks are as much a mirror of US society as is "tv-land". I would take this article with a grain of salt.
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-- I love it! America - the awkward teenage years.
Apparently our current wars are due to misplaced aggression, and our awkward relationships with Britain, France, and Germany are due to confusion about our relationships with our parents and uncles.
Actually - None of this is surprising to me. It's a quaint metaphor.
I have a BA in Sociology (which has done me no practical good) and have worked in business administration in IT, Medical Research, and in Higher Education for a number of years.
SO.... I'd like to toss up a really big: NO KIDDING!
* Our once superior public education is failing, and has been for 2-3 generations.
* Our IT Industry has been moving overseas for decades, because it's cheaper for the Chief Business Officers to educate/train abroad... leaving my programmer peers out of work and unable to buy the technology they'd like to be programming.
* Our Medical Industry has been moving abroad because our domestic insurance and pharmacology infrastructure is such a bureaucratic mess.
-- If we're going to invest in Tech and Health, we've got some work ahead of us. Are we ready? I honestly don't know.
Throughout World History - great nations who do not invest in themselves will eventually fail. They will begin to import/consume more than they export/produce, will become dependent upon those whom they once thought they controlled, and will then fail.
-- Duuuhhhh....
But what do I know? I'm just a cynical 30-something mother of two kids struggling to survive in a broken city, knowing that my children are already behind in their education (globally speaking). I'm unable to make a significant positive change because I'm just one of the hundreds of thousands of people working too hard to survive to really have the time or resources to deal with our problems.
Problems? We have problems?
-- Washington is designed for gridlock and may not be flexible enough to adapt to a rapidly changing global market.
-- Our Free Market is greed-based and has no civic responsibility.
-- Too many of our people still think the world is flat. (seriously.)
-- We haven't been investing in our own people, and have been neglecting our cities, our minorities, and our immigrants.
... yes, those wonderful, intelligent and creative minds in other countries who actually want to live here and improve our infrastructure. We deport them and make their naturalization process a pain in the ass.
We have been shooting ourselves in the foot for quite some time.
-- I agree. We need to grow up and learn to play well with others.
*steps down off soapbox and shuffles back to work*
BTW: Rumor has it that internet urls will soon accept non-Latin fonts. Could it be that Rome is falling?
Oh well. Go Phillies.
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It is not a case of growing up but avoiding atrophy and grumpy old age like Europe, where the pursuit of happiness - and most activities are banned. The reality of living in the USA is 180 degrees different from the false image abroad. It is a much more mature and thoughtful place than its negative image tries to imply, and it really is a great place to live compared to the UK or Europe.
I suspect that the bad image is perpetuated by other governments afraid they might have to become real democracies like the USA. After all, the USA has all-elected representatives who you can actually meet and talk to; unlike the UK where the upper house is virtually barred to the public and full of unelected and unrepresentative people, such as the Bishops. Why are Bishops still ruling the UK anyway.
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#32 zeroKnots-
Please someone help me. Translation please. I thought I spoke English, I speak French, Spanish a bit of Basque but the above post is way over my head
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grafpleyel 25
Yes you're right of course I did get the US bases numbers wrong it's ironic that over 60 years since the end of WW2 there are US bases throughout Europe including the UK. I very recently had a conversation with a more enlightened American who was a nuclear specialist during his USAF service in the sixties. He went to some length in explaining just how an atomic weapon is constructed and how it works. It was vivid and enlightening in some ways, but also frightening. To sum up it has occured to me that, if your standing in this small world of ours is reliant on dominating military strength. There will be a time when that strength will be depleted and the
result will not be very paletable aka the fall of various previous empires.
The old adage 'the bigger you are the harder you fall' will be unwelcome to some Americans who believe that 'might is right'. It does not mean that the world will be in any less danger as there will be others who will want to fill the boots.
What is really needed therefore is a collective will to do this and this should come from the UN which after all does have a world wide membership. If the resources of say Nato would be put to this end rather than the opposite then the world would be a much safer place. Then the USA could do what it is best at, innovation and unbounded enthusiasm in technology and medicine. The UN now with the ultimate power would sort out the policing problems using ALL resources and not just the token it has now.
There is always a big place for the USA at the table but it's efforts should be improvement of the worlds lot and it's own instead of using a nuclear threat to get what they want. History has shown that real power is in technical creativity, mere weapons are not enough. As I pointed out in my previous post.
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#38 MagicKirin
"I would argue the belief system expoused by Iran and Al Quada and their suggorates are in the same category."
I think I now understand why you are such a confused person. What makes you think that Iran and Al Qaeda share the same beliefs? They might both dislike or even hate the US but for very different reasons. Al Qaeda for the US involvement in Israel, for various convoluted religious reasons. Iran for the very real reason that US interfered fundamentally and largely to the disadvantage of the majority of Iranians when it forced regimes change on them 1953. They also don't like the Israelis for the very real reason that Israel and Mossad were complicit in that action. It's a case of one's sins finding one out.
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roger that! we could all stand to try not to act like spoiled children.
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More intelligentsia clap trap - why does the world think we have to justify our existence as a culture and a country to them? The so called intelligentsia of the world demands much and contributes little to the reality the majority of us have to deal with every day. Someone needs to get a life
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I'm not going to get too involved with this blog because I can't really come to grips with the original post I think Mark needs to get about a bit more in the US. Washington may very well be as he describes it but the rest of the US no way.
#72 Philly-Mom
Your post made me feel quite humble I wish a few Brits would sit back and take the same dis/passionate look at their country and recognise it's problems.
And my last little thought is about perception and how the US sometimes creates it's own problems or in this case how Hollywood can do so. I was talking to some friends one day and the subject came around to motor cars. One of the group said he would never buy a US built car. When asked why he replied 'because they catch fire too easily'. His reasoning was that every time he saw a crash in Hollywood movie or TV series the car caught fire therefore American cars must be a fire hazard.
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"I've been struck by the tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity of much of American society compared to its rather more free-flowing image abroad."
Yeah Yeah Yeah and most people abroad think the USA is NY and LA, maybe Chicago if they are really educated. Please excuse me if I don't put too much stock in the opinions of people that believe they know us based on movies and TV shows. It is entertainment, not reality.
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Obama's the answer to a "Mature" America, but spending and placement of funds will not alone address the leadership role. Healthier understandings, by the public, must include climate awareness and literacy. Conservancy and education mean developments in strategic rather than tactical spending--as far as we know the recent spending helped us out of a recession, but future spending will sure up the infrastructure and facilities for the people and create jobs in a tiring but stable economy. This idea of smaller government, wherever big brother is the feared ultimatum, is the immaturity I see in America; the pundits of the extreme right and left.
A good dose of regular spending on renewable resources and education will prove, in twenty years, that Obama's key to "Maturing" America. We're nearly voting maturely.
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I don't think "adolescent" is a useful metaphor to apply to "America" or any nation. A careful reading of Kurth's article will show that he does not use it this way.
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To start I must admit that I have no trust in anyone who writes on whether a nation will retain its power in the future. There were books published on why the Soviet Union would destroy the United States, on why Japan would be the largest economy in the world, and why nations would never go to war again. All of these books used impressive numbers and pain-staking research, and they all managed to overlook serious flaws in their arguments that would only be exposed much later.
The writer is correct in that economics factor largely into power, that is no different from any other power that has ever existed. It is no accident that some of the greatest changes in the world happen in times of poverty. However, to rely on that ignores the vital role of diplomats, other states, soldiers, geography and a thousand other concerns that alter the circumstances.
As for American culture, I am not so certain that the professor has the right thesis. He ignores a point that I feel is vital, that is the matter of the leaders themselves. Do they spend much time paying attention to modern American entertainment? For some reason I seriously doubt Mr. Jintao takes Beyonce into consideration when looking at how China should handle the problem of Iran
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"tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity"
Funny, that's a pretty fair description of British society.
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As a citizen of the United States, I recognize that there are problems with the current culture in America, but it is naive to call this culture 'American'. If you look at this from a historical perspective, you will see this culture, or the hallmarks of it, in evidence in all the peoples who have worn the mantle of world leadership.
America doesn't need to 'grow up', it needs to revert to its beginings when we were a scrappy upstart; When we didn't believe we would be successful because we were us, but because of hard work and innovation.
Unfortunately suceess has bred laziness. Now there are people in the US who have forgotten that everything that you think you have a right to has to be produced by somebody. It's a mistake all the great empires have made, were it Britain when the sun wasn't setting or the Romans at their height. It becomes too easy to import the neccessities of life, and when you don't need to produce domestically, you don't need to educate or care for your workforce.
As somebody above said, those of us who are the heirs to the American dream still believe that hard work and innovation are the keys to success, and as soon as the world finds a new Engine for the world Economy, it will be true again. Then we will be able to re-educate those who have forgotten that everything you think you have a right to, has to be produced by somebody, and America will go back to being the what it was meant to be.
Please all just remember that the might and power of the United States was tempered by the belief that Americans have always held as a nation of immigrants: that everybody is a potential or latent American. Our firm belief that all people can and should participate in the American dream. Right or wrong, this belief made America inclusive, if parasitic. It softened the touch of American power.
It looks like the mantle will probably move on the China. I won't draw any conclusions about what the world in their hands would look like. I will leave that to you. But I will say God help the common Chinese people, and God help us all.
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And another thing: the article by James Kurth may indeed be "fascinating" but it is not a "study." It is an article and is just one man's opinion.
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As an American that has spent (and continues to spend) about 1/3 of my time in the developing world, I think Kurth is essentially right. I'm (mostly) proud to be an American because -- to indulge in stereotyping because that's what everyone else is doing and that's what the topic requires -- I think we are a fundamentally decent people and have many admirable national qualities (energy, self-reliance, sense of fair play, etc.). Still, I see what we export abroad in terms of youth culture and it's pretty disgusting. When back in the US I see reality shows and wonder "who ARE these people??" "Do I actually stand in supermarket lines with them??" I just don't recognize them at all. Are we celebrity-obsessed? Well, yeah. Are the British, Brazilians, Nigerians and the Indians moreso? Well...maybe (only on BBC.com will you see Madonna's opinions on global warming or Victoria Beckham's views on stem cell research being taken seriously). Are we self-centered? Hell, yeah (moreso than others). But I would make a distinction between self-centered as "selfish" vs. self-centered as uninformed about others. I've never been to a country where people aren't at least as self-centered as Americans in the former sense.
As an earlier poster said, there can be two sides to the "adolescent" coin in the US--the good side and the bad. Other countries are equally adolescent and don't show a lot of the positive attributes.
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One thing Americans can do well is innovate like a teenager with an arrested attention span. If we can continue to innovate, the rest of the world can improve on our ideas and make them marketable.
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America does not benefit from "soft power" only because the country has not projected it.
To the world at large, America is not defined by its culture. When American culture is discussed, the only common things that appear are more to do with industry and commerce - Hollywood, fast food, big box stores, rap and pop music produced en masse and shipped out by major labels.
That is quite different from the way people think of culture when they are asked about India, for example. Most would discuss castes, religion, native cuisine and folk arts, etcetera.
America is not seen to have a particular culture, probably due to the big splits within the country in terms of religion and politics, with many Americans acting as though the Demos and Reps are opposite sides in a civil war, and every issue having even the most minute link to religion being targeted (or exploited) by sparring guests on news shows about ethics and what is "right".
Rather, people define America by what it displays to the world at large and what is far more easily defined; economy, politics, and military power (which is of course all closely related).
America is a political entity to the world, not a cultural one. Everything to do with America seems to be about economics, wars, policing, peacekeeping, enforcing a self-proclaimed set of "American values" (which are shared by less than half the population), which appear to be culturally based at first, but the set of values is more akin to a Democrat or Republican party platform.
You cannot benefit from "soft power" when the world has not even had a taste of it that hasn't been spoilt by overshadowing politics.
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If you think the US is a country that is "tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity" you need to take a driving trip from coast to coast. Get off the main highways and see what follows a "Pop. 2378" sign as well as New York and Chicago and Wichita. While you will in fact, see much of what you've described you'll also see more than your share of rudeness, individuality and 'stick it in your ear' attitudes than you'll imagine.
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As for America growing up, lets not forget that it is like one big social experiment to which the outcome is many years from revealing itself.
The result could be interesting though.
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Mark,
It's an interesting read, but I don't think its accurate. There are many things that the future may bring us, a lot more than just "green tech, bio tech, and new medical and health treatments;" it seems rather narrowly focused to just the 'issues at this moment in time' as what we need for the future. The real truth if America stays a super power is its ability to change; that alone is the reason why empires rise and fall. And if that's green tech, communications, space exploration, or making a better hamburger, we should go for all of that and not be so focused.
For the 'adolescent' American image, that's been the case for decades and not a bad thing. From Rock & Roll to iphones, its probably the one thing people around the world enjoy, our adolescent culture. It's a sterotype, just like Germans are great with finance/math, French are artistic geniuses, and all Japanese workers are effecient. I don't see how one could change a sterotype nor see a reason to bother with it.
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To MagicKirin:
Please spell-check and proofread your comments before posting. Your reasoning maybe sound, but your prose paints you as sloppy and illiterate, or perhaps a stroke victim.
Given America's public current image as ignorant and shallow, we do not need the additional charge of illiteracy added to the list, regardless of its veracity.
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I think Mark Mardell is exactly right about buttoned-down and exaggerated deference. Americans are never sure of where they stand socially, and in middle class America they are additionally terrified of offending anybody, and frankly kind of hidebound. These characteristics are on most extreme display in Washington DC where Mardell is of course based, but also in places like California and in almost any middlebrow suburb you care to mention; if he could get into some of the more isolated parts of the heartland, such as parts of the South, or the northern Great Lakes region for example, he might find something a bit more culturally familiar.
Let's face it -- if it weren't for American fear of causing offense, and hidebound behavior and buttoned-down culture, Sacha Baron Cohen wouldn't have had a movie with Borat.
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The past is not the future, and China is NOT America. Too much of the world cherishes liberty and justice to follow the global leadership of the world's leader in executions and imprisonment without trial. As for China's grip on the world's purse-strings, that's due to America's complicit policy of encouraging free trade without fair trade.
How can industry compete on equal footing when domestic regulations forbid pollution and require fair treatment of labor, and no such regulations exist abroad? Furthermore, how can trade be fair when you're dealing with a government who fixes the exchange rate of their currency? Chinese industry is cheap because they keep buying dollars with them. So kindly explain how they're supposed to stop investing in the West's financial markets while still keeping their currency artificially low?
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ref #93
There is a fault in the BBC board I have checked posts I have done and spelling has been changed.
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It's all about SEX,DRUGS AND ROCK'N'ROLL. America grow up? Never!
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ref #76
I think I now understand why you are such a confused person. What makes you think that Iran and Al Qaeda share the same beliefs? They might both dislike or even hate the US but for very different reasons. Al Qaeda for the US involvement in Israel, for various convoluted religious reasons. Iran for the very real reason that US interfered fundamentally and largely to the disadvantage of the majority of Iranians when it forced regimes change on them 1953. They also don't like the Israelis for the very real reason that Israel and Mossad were complicit in that action. It's a case of one's sins finding one out.
_________________________---
Obvious there are differences between Iran and Al Quada. but the common thread is intolerance and hatread of other beliefs. If Jews and Christians mysteriosly disappeared, they would immediatly go after those not moslem enough.
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The American Interest purports to be "independent and non-partisan," but Mr. Kurth is clearly an evangelical protestant Christian:
Debunking American Theocracy
and he also appears to be a (somewhat conservative) Republican. The plug he inserted in his article for privatization of education is unrelated to his main thesis, and betrays his Republican agenda, I believe.
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All: To the extent that "childish things" refers to things that are self-centered or "now centered" (as opposed to focusing on a real future) or are feelings-centered as opposed to being grounded firmly in objective truth, they should not be "put away"--they should be ejected with great firmness.
One of the "childish things" that should get this treatment is our unwillingness to manage our finances. Due to past misbehavior on this score, we are now some $57 trillion in debt. Instead of dealing with this now because of the damage it will do to our children and grandchildren, we have heard for 40+ years great cheering from our leaders when a proposal is "deficit-neutral", as if this was a huge accomplishment. When are we going to hear that a budget is "debt-neutral"? When are we going to see our leadership truly hand us the bills and lead us through paying them, rather than continuing to put off the day of reckoning to fall on our children and grandchildren and destroy them?
Riddle me this: Most folks I know object to paying taxes primarily because of the uncontrolled, ridiculous spending that takes place. If we are willing to pay higher taxes to see the debt dealt with, how on earth do we keep our leadership from turning around and throwing it down yet another hole to win re-election?
@24 (StD): Your comments about China are on track. They are in a great financial position to force us to do things that we are going to really regret.
@45 (cl): "It's time to cease trying to cow everyone else in the world with our guns"...To the extent that the defense budget is bloated, I absolutely agree. I also agree that immediately relying on force of arms is not a good approach for the broad spectrum of issues we deal with. Finally, I know that defense spending is particularly awful because not too much of it is multi-use (and so a dollar spent on defense oftentimes has to sit for a very long time before it is actually used for defense). I have to ask, however: Are you willing to see some folks oppressed without remedy simply because there is nobody willing to oppose the oppressors with force? What's the proper trade here?
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This is pretty old.
'Growing up' usually equates to becoming more like Europe -- which rather naively continues to see its own values as the gold standard of civilization and a suitable deference to them as a sign of maturity.
Moreover, it's pretty old for Europeans to seek out and eulogize Americans who will voice these sentiments for them. In the last analysis, the piece is simply a very indirect illustration of the principle that we all like flattery.
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Ouch! 'Tis indeed a mixed bag of valid comments, most of which we tried valiantly to address in the central topic of *Why America had to grow up*.. [sic!] However the somewhat puerile views contained in a few rather seemingly irate commentaries were only compounded by the glaring abuse of the English language, grammatically, as well those so painfully mis-spelt and curried, spiced with righteous rant and unholy hubristic nemesis that reveals much binding in the marshes of knotted twickers amongst those who have gladly embraced the politics of fear, with a resentment of those perceived as 'the others'. Thus, we have all joined the common herd in our headlong rush in that unending race to the bottom of the bottomless abyss where the progenitors of fear have sway.
The views of 'reubenr' wins my assessment of a sane and balanced opinion that projects an accurate enough picture of his 'adolescent America' which shows an element of erudition not generally apparent in the disparate conglomeration of so many whose sense of 'patriotism' towers above all else that's not woven, bound in a flag without which there does not exist what is regarded as the spirit and soul of a lost nation so passionately and forever invoking the blessing of the 'Almighty', whilst hell bent on destroying the lives and cultures of those who once were erstwhile 'allies', patently reflecting the true nature of the immature in the display of "schadensandschloßfreude"...or, 'I am bigger than you, so I have every right to smash your sand castle in, as it gives me such joy..' and yes! War may be terror, but 'military glory is... the attractive rainbow that arises in showers of blood'..if I may be so bold as to quote Abraham Lincoln - 1809-1865. 16th US President.
If America is still in its infancy.. after all, what is a quarter of a Millennium against the backdrop of time since mankind crawled out of the primordial swamp, and still savouring the blood lust of his long removed ancestors? The answer lies in the very fact that his insatiable propensity for murder, mayhem and indescribable madness is intrinsically 'wired in the blood'.
I hope that somehow, somewhere, sometime.. in the uncertain duration that awaits humanity, and given the seemingly forlorn hope that we will step back from the abyss, from the Lemming-like compulsion to an utterly *M-A-D* desire to self annihilation, that is: before we have to face off with a much more mature and intellectually, scientifically superior and/or militarily far more advanced species from 'Other Worlds' who will have come to regard humanoids as the flotsam and jetsam of far ancient Meteoric detritus matter that's been 'alien' and lost in space for much longer than Galactic records can determine.
If so, then these facile arguments we indulge ourselves will be seen to be nothing more than a posturing, thrashing about as mindless marsupials, as testosterone driven deer in the rutting season, in a display that our so-called 'leaders' are infinitely obsessed in carrying on.. along with the amount of metal they adorn themselves with, usually after much imaginary 'battles' that they drive their hapless citizenry to engage in.. whilst saving their precious hides in well protected bunkers equally well stocked with the very best that is provided to ensure their own survival.
This must be the one hope that we all ought to embrace, IF we are to regard ourselves as having matured, really 'developed' and civilised within the true sense of the term.
Adolescent America? Hmmmm... it may be averred that it takes one to know one.. and, when we all know the good as good, there arises the knowledge of evil.. Here I think the wise Lao-tzu must be credited such thoughts.
Will our vain and disoriented, delusional"leaders" ever emerge to truly lead us from the 'evils' they conjure with such dollops of fear so as to maintain what they regard as a 'God-given' duty in maintaining the status quo?
A forlorn hope indeed. Which 'God' are we to supplicate.. for 'blessings'??
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@72 (pm): Nicely, and sadly, written. But if you are displaying these attitudes to your children, you are already contributing in a mighty way toward ensuring that there will be someone in the following generations who "gets it" and who can try to use their influence to see that others "get it".
To quote Winston Churchill (October 29, 1941): "Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy...."
"These are not dark days; these are great days--the greatest days our country has ever lived; and we must all thank God that we have been allowed, each of us according to our stations, to play a part in making these days memorable in the history of our race."
What was true about that then, is true today, and will be forever. Just reading that revs my motor up.
Off to another meeting!
Arclight
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American has alot of work to do, that cannot be denied. But, to say America needs to "grow up" is a fairly ethnocentric view point isnt it? To say it needs to "grow up" implies it needs to lay aside its childish notions and become something else, the question being what? Europe? I hope not! As an ex-pat here in the states I can say whilst America has a great deal of work to do, its no worse really than Europe.
America is VAST nation with countless different cultures mixing fairly well, which shows at least in some respects it is more "grown up" than Europe!
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Well there are many unfortunate aspects of American culture and society that commentators are justified in pointing out. European countries can hardly talk of being "more mature." You have just as many problems as we do and a number that we don't have or have far less of. You have corruption, human rights abuses, and meddling foreign adventurism (eg. francafrique). You have racism, nepotism, cronyism and class-ism to a degree that the US just cant match. The UK, especially, has built the world's most pervasive and pernicious surveillance society (this post may even be "moderated" by it) and is the epitome of the pejorative, "nanny state." You speak of your mature "progressive societies" yet you have only achieved a semblance of this by exterminating everyone in say "France" that wasn't "French" over the past centuries and so on. Now you have huge trouble accepting people who aren't "British" or "French" in the sudo-ethnic sense of the word. When you should be forming a European Union that would rival or surpass the US in economic, political and even military power, you are held back by your old, puerile animosities and suspicions. Looking back, you've unleashed the most destructive wars in recorded history, only to spend 50 years hiding behind American arms whilst you take potshots at our efforts to defend you. I could go on but the bottom line is that *every* country has faults and each should look long and hard at themselves before casting the first stone. Last time I checked, the US was the only country who openly admits its faults and its ideals in its mantra: "in order to form a more perfect union." The US is a country of *ideals* and individual freedom, and is as such easy to criticize when it falls short, as it always will, in pursuit of perfection. However, the UK nothing more than a country of "being British" and France of being "French." You stand for nothing except yourselves and your own self-interest and you even fall all over yourselves to compromise that in Afghanistan. On the other hand, nowhere but the US do a greater variety of people get along as well as they do, not perfectly mind you, but always striving to be. You'll never have a "civil rights" movement, you'll never have an Obama, because your Obama can never be British or French or German enough, or come from the right stock or class, his blood will never be sufficiently blue. Who are you people really? What do you stand for? What will you *die* for? I doubt if you can answer that question with anything but immature, adolescent tribalism. At least we try and that's, more often than not, more than can be said of you.
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You know, Mark --
I told you that you would get a strange perspective of our USA if you stay in DC too long. All of DC is 'The Bubble'. Washington is the ONLY city in our nation that
-- isn't part of a State
-- has only 1 civic revenue source: National Politics.
Frankly, it's a dull town. Go visit Baltimore. Come visit Philly. We have more statues and monuments than DC! (and more poor people, and more art, and more industry, and better teams. Go Phillies.) Heck, I've never been to Chicago, but I bet it provides a much better view of America than DC.
Now, About America:
Three blind men were asked to describe an elephant. The one holding the tail said it was like a snake, the one holding the ear said it was like living fabric, and the one holding the leg said it was like a tree.
We Americans are almost as blind as those men. We are all right, but we are all wrong.
The narcissistic woman on Hollywood and Vine (and her implants) are part of America. The Christian Fundamentalist Arm-Chair Politician who lives two hours East of her in Orange County is also part of America.
The stay-at-home suburban soccer mom is America, and so is the impoverished mother of five in the city whose mechanic husband can't provide health care for his staff.
My Korean-American, Navaho-American, Indian-American and Senegal-American friends are just as American as the struggling farmers of the mid-west and the white factory workers of our industry towns.
(BTW: I've met many immigrants, and none of them are felons.)
You know, I kind of love these here 50 states. We have our problems, and we may not work through all of them fast enough to stay "on top of the world", but who cares?
-- I have clean water, a job, a family, and my little urban garden was rather plentiful this past summer. My neighbors are working to clean up our city parks. A solar panel vendor came through town recently. Maybe next year I'll get a job closer to home and will bike to work. Now, THAT's change I can believe in.
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My answer would be, yes, the US popluation needs to grow up. But "growing up" should not translate into lack of imagination or ingenuity, as some have reactively simpered. Ironically, this reaction endorses the observation. Immaturity equates maturity with loss of vibrancy and vitality, but this impression itself is a product of our cultural pre-occupation with youth. America can provide countless examples, historic and contemporary, of mature adults changing society through innovation. I would argue that, contrary to what is placed in the limelight, this is most frequently the case. I think part of the resistence to the allusion of American cultural immaturity is the inference that those making the observation are elitists propagating some sort of classism. Again, a childish point of view. Because of the American abhorrence of mature and intellectual observations the US will not maitain it's status. It cannot. The historical markers of a degenerating society are already in place and until the general American culture is willing to face this, and make the necessary adjustments, their course is unfortunately set. For the record, lest I be accused of being one of the foreign elitists, I am a California resident and native who has travelled the US extensively and Europe once.
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I could not agree more with your comments. I have lived here 7 years now and love America and my American family. However, I was shocked to discover, upon arrival that living here is very different to visiting. Americans are very old fashioned, care too much what other people think of them and their status in life and don't care enough about the rest of the world. It's a disposable society that has changed little since the recession, in fact most are reacting with shock and disbelief that this could happen to them and want the government to fix it, but I have met very few prepared to cut back, go without, accept responsibilty and move on.
The unwavering belief that this is the 'freest' country in the world is also very frustrating. Unless you have true separation of church and state you cannot be free. Until the press can ask the government any question at any time without submitting it to the press office first, you do not have freedom of the press, so on and so forth. Liberalism being a dirty word gets tiresome too.
On the flip side, I have never lived anywhere where the people are so gracious, welcoming, forgiving and generous. Before I lived here I thought 'have a nice day' was a bit chintzy, now I know they actually mean it.
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Is this anything new? We have been hearing this from the left for years on end. The US does not force it's popular culture on anyone. People go to Starbucks, McDonald's, The Gap and Wal-mart of their own free will. No sinister plot, just people buying what they want.
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Grew up in Europe - got a British education through "O" levels - and well remember this (rather constant) theme 40 years ago! What was adolescent about the US in the 20th Century? The Marshall Plan, The UN, Bretton Woods , or The Nuremberg trials? This analogy speaks only to, dare I say, old and tired European prejudices.
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T1m0thy dear - you speak a bit of Basque?
My husband has been looking for a Basque Bar-Mitzvah card for some years. Just for the novelty of it, mind you. Let me know if you see any, eh?
-- oh, and don't worry, that rant up above was clearly a fine example of our public education system. Don't Panic. Move along, move along, nothing to see here...
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I assume that your recounting of the Prof's remarks is correct. The USA boasts of being youthful & big. I don't expect the USA's people to abandon that self-immage. I'm an American. When I become friendly with a foreigner, I get them a gigantic American style meal to give them a 1st hand eperience of American excess. For good or ill, the USA & its people are the epitome of excess.
Both Peter Pan & the USA will never grow up. I've learned to live with it. It's my heritage. If American's abandon hubris-it will signal that they are ready to deal with life as she is lived by the rest of the world. Since I'm 72, I'm not going to live to see that.
BTW, I'm an Anglophile & I've learned to trust BBC. Living through WW II in the USA has taught me that the BBC makes it a point to tell the truth or remains silent. The UK was the USA's ally in WW I & II. The UK's propaganda in WW I was far the superior to Deutschland's efforts. US schools still teach that the Brits are the good guys despite the struggles of the Empire's colonies to become free.
You Brits have the BBC to tell your story. When I lived overseas during the USA's war in 'Nam. I listened to AFRTS & the VOA but I made sure to listen to BBC news. Yes, I listened to Radio Hanoi, Moscow & Havana. I had a lot of time, all of these services had good signals & I'm an American & I listen to what I want to hear, even if the truth hurts my feelings. I have a few scars from wounds but no scars from truth.
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American. Oddly enough, i can agree in the general sense that our government needs to grow up. I'd love to see our government take some of our military and use them to clean up cities, get rid of gangs and the like. I'm not saying we need to declare martial law, but we've got a whole lot of military sitting around doing nothing and there's plenty of local law enforcement that i'm sure could make use of them. Why can't our military coordinate more where the FBI and such aren't typically used? The reality is that our government is a ghost when it comes to the 'real' aspect of the US, seemingly having a stronger presence in countries i don't care about. I suppose, my main wish is that some things need to become stricter whereas others need to be looser. Like many have pointed out time and time again, we put too much emphasis on the shit that doesn't matter making it tougher for people to enjoy the simple things while doing jack shit to improve on the rampant crime that results in unnecessary lives lost. We have this mindset where if we try to fix anything, we'll just make it worse. Thus, our state-side government is completely reactive. Obama seems to be our first 'proactive' figure, trying to pave the way for my country after the inevitable collapse by taking the best pieces from as money countries around the world and incorporating them into ours. Unfortunately, our population can only look at most of his decisions with 'and how the hell do you think you are going to pay for that?' rather than 'oh snap, that'll be great to have when our economy is *ACTUALLY* on the rise.' For some damn reason, my fellow countrymen have this idea in their heads that Obama can spirit away the multitude of mistakes that formed the foundation of my country in 4 years, that we will have a booming economy in 8 and everybody will die rich in 12. My realistic expectations are that Obama is gearing the US for what happens after the collapse, and we'll be *SO* much better for it. And i say 'collapse' like i expect it. It so happens i can accept the cold, hard truth.
Sorry for the lack of any kind of indentation.
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i have lived in the US for 11 years now, and I think that there are too many faces of America to just pick one above all the others. generally, however, one thing is clear: Americans WANT to do good, and they often feel misunderstood by the rest of the world, whether they express it in regret or in arrogance; they have an incredible sense of self and an amazing belief that, here, things can be done, progress can happen and unity will prevail.
the trouble is that the past few years/decades have deeply challenged those beliefs, and perhaps those beliefs are now stronger as a result.
i wouldn't tell Americans to "grow up." I think that, deep inside, they are more grown up and responsible than many of the world's citizens. HOWEVER, i would urge the Americans to step back and think of WHY they haven't been able to live up to their creed, why all of a sudden they feel one insecurity after another - from war to economy to health. Where have they been this whole time, to suddenly wake up and realize the mess their world has become? Has someone played a really bad joke on them? And on the World? And if so, WHOM? If politicians say they care about their subjects, WHY are they not coming through with their promises? Do politicians even MATTER anymore? (answer: no) WHO IS DOING THIS??
Americans need to quit staring at their TV screens and start questionning what they see. They need to step out of their comfort zone (for those who still have one), learn to come to terms with the new reality of the world and most importantly, CHALLENGE what they see as unfair. They need to shake the foundations of a system that no longer works for them, before it's too late.
And yet, I would still not use the term "grow up", for a very simple reason: No one should be a in position to tell them so. No other nation is experiencing what Americans are going through. There is no template for how citizens of a superpower cope with such a mess. No one has been there before. All the rest of the world can do is wait, hope, and see what happens next. Most importantly, we need to LEARN from it. We have no other choice.
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If the USA is so screwed up and adolescent, how have we done so well over the 200 years. Where is the ideal to emulate? Nowhere. We have our problems but overall we've done pretty darn well for ourselves and although we should strive to do better as a nation, we shouldn't apologize for who or what we are.
It is a force of nature for nations to rise and fall. Our global dominance will wane in many regards. The America haters out there should think twice about the future; what will fill the void?
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I realize that Mark Mardell in this superficial article is ostensibly merely bringing up a question that an American has already raised, but the effect of this article, particularly with the title it has been given, is surely to give the impression of just another supercilious dismissal by an arrogant European (or Brit). Much of what has been remarked about the immaturity of American pop culture is true of all modern western pop culture. And, yes, it is very different from the basic culture of the solid (but nevertheless open-handed and friendly) society of the American West and Midwest. I'm afraid that what many Europeans mean when they judge America as immature (and it sometimes is) is that American should become like much of European society has become: cynical and lacking in confidence in its own roots. America, by the way, seems at the present time to be on the way down (as does much of Western society), but less so than Europe does. --a Canadian anglophile
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To MK;
Haven't noticed the board changing any of my OWN diction or grammar.
Also, "Obvious there are differences between Iran and Al Quada. but the common thread is intolerance and hatred of other beliefs. "
As one American to another (presumed) American; living in a country in which hate crimes are on the rise (which is consistent with other parts of the world), that saw the rise of slavery at it's peak because of ECONOMIC reasons for a wealthy minority, resulting in a civil war that killed more Americans than ANY OTHER WAR BEFORE OR SINCE...Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority, Timothy McVeigh, Columbine, Waco and the Branch Davidians, the seizure of women and children from a private enclave and disposition of the children as wards of the state because of the practice of polygamy, the current anti-illegal backlash, and amidst the current political diatribes traded publicly which CLEARLY reveal antipathy towards others' opinions (socialists, libterds, communists, anti-same sex marriage, anti-abortion activists that justify murder in the defense of unborn babies and such)
You MUST BE KIDDING ME!...they are OH so how much different than us in their intolerance and hatred of other beliefs?
The only reason we TOLERATE differences of opinions and actions here in the US fairly consistently and without bloodshed is because we are FORCED TO BY PENALTY OF LAW! and largely, most of us respect that law...still, there are some that break laws, and still, government sometimes usurps personal and group freedoms in it's quest to maintain it's own power.
But, imagine if there WERE NO LAWS! Or if those laws did not uphold national standards of freedom of speech, business law, civil law, and were instead administered by local cleric according to however the local warlord or cleric interpreted the Holy Book. We don't even have a consensus here in the WEST on how to interpret the various verses of the Bible; so we should be so surprised HOW? that there are so many inconsistencies elsewhere within the context of other religions and forms of government? and that the people suffer from them? and are as much victims of circumstance and world politics and ignorance as some of us may be? That here in the US, right NOW, there are a substantial number of people in favor of having a religious person heading our government that should use religion as the major basis for the creation of laws? What have the anti-abortionists been claiming for years now? How about the anti-evolutionists?
There ARE some few that believe they are justified in the bombing of abortion clinics, murdering physicians that perform abortions, murdering women and children in the name of national security (Waco). We are so different, HOW?
It seems to me that one of the MAJOR differences between them and US isn't our NATURES, but a more intact society, with an established justice system that has evolved from a 3-tier system of a more balanced, democratic NON-RELIGIOUS government, that more successfully controls the BEHAVIOR of the individuals in our OWN society than THEIR tribal and non-democratic governments are able to control THEM; and a system HOWEVER imperfect it is in at least some sense answerable to the people upon which it imposes the rule of law.
I think our relative affluence and social stability blinds us to the other realities that much of the world has to live in because of the leadership and economies (or lack thereof) of their own nation states and the information that many of these people receive of the West is so limited and associated with some of the exported visions of narcissistic depravities that our corporations and media (alcohol, nudity, sexual immorality) so readily export while too many of these people live in squalor and too readily believe in their own versions of conspiracy theories while fearfully trying to protect their OWN property and religions and lifestyles while WE (or our representatives) are trying so hard to buy it all up and export in the quest to find new markets)...
and we IMAGINE to ourselves that we are so superior and they are so inferior that the argument is JUST THIS SIMPLE... our best defense is a good offense so we should just...what...kill them all?
So one religion (as long as it is OURS) is so morally superior that it has the 'right' to rule the others and condemn them without a trial because we have named them all 'terrorists' if they speak negatively of us and worse, have organizations within their societies that we find it impossible to track, we condemn all because some bomb innocent people (and WE never have, not even in 'Nam) so we're going to consider them all equally culpable when the majority of them HAVE no democratic power within their own nations which are ruled by self-seeking religious fascists serving their own interests?
This is where that moral hazard of hypocrisy begins creeping in...
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I left the UK at 23 and have since lived in the US for 39 years (Texas, Connecticut and California).
Agreed the US's success is due to economic success due to constant innovation especially in business.
And yes the US Federal Government needs to grow up, not business. The Government is killing the golden goose through special interests. The tax code is disgracefully complex because special interests in cahoots with government want it that way (most people have to hire an accountant). Litigation is extreme because lawyers in cahoots with government want it that way. Health care costs are extreme because the medical industry in cahoots with government want it that way. We've got a huge Ethanol industry due to insane credits to growers, even though it takes more energy to produce it than you get back. I could go on and on.
The solution? The people have to grow up too and vote in the "good guys" over their own "special interest guys". This probably won't happen but its only chance is a national "movement" pushed by some very credible entity, maybe current and future Presidents.
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"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.” - Albert Einstein
"Growing up" would not result in US domination.
“It is our nature to conform; it is a force which not many can successfully resist. What is its seat? The inborn requirement of self-approval.” - Mark Twain
Cain't have no rebels without a conforming society, and we do love our rebels.
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I know you only just got here and need time to get a fuller impression and understanding of us, but...
It sounds to me like you've come here with a lot of preconceptions about America and Americans that fit into the typical and oh so boring general stereotypes. Just the way you phrased the question alludes to this. It is such an old chestnut I'm surprised you would resurrect such a relic of the past regardless of the study sited.
There is also an unstated assumption in your tone and question that Europe and Europeans are more mature (ie, wiser). This is also a stereotype that you've apparently ingested without any serious self-analysis.
What you term "adolescent" we view as young and vigorous. America and Americans embrace our youthfulness which, as with any society, manifests both our strengths and weaknesses.
"It is usually forgotten that this popular culture is chiefly popular with the young - particularly those young who are still irresponsible, rebellious and feckless..."
This is the fuddy-duddiest statement I've read in a long time. It sounds like some old-timer complaining about "kid's today". It is also untrue since popular culture crosses all generational lines in America.
Those "irresponsible, rebellious and feckless" youth were the ones massively organizing behind Obama to precipitate change in America. They are also in the vangard of movements for a large range of social and environmental causes creating and utilizing innovative mediums to generate attention and facilitate action.
"If American leaders want to lead the leaders of other countries, they will have to act like mature adults, not like the attention-seeking celebrities of American popular culture."
This is condescending in the extreme and enrages me with its pomposity. I have an overwhelming urge to say "I know I am but what are you!" - that's the level of discourse I consider this statement to be on.
"Perhaps he's just spotted the difference between the heartland and TV-land."
You obviously haven't been here long enough to recognize terms that are media cliches. Just one of many lazy crutches ("red and blue states:) the American media uses to create a sense of excitement in the conflict between "oppositional" forces. America is a lot more diverse in each region, state, county and neighborhood than the simplistic caricature the media uses to portray us.
"In my short time here, I've been struck by the tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity of much of American society compared to its rather more free-flowing image abroad."
Rather than using a study as a setup to offer your personal observation of American society you should have dedicated the entire post to the subject. You throw it out there without offering any explanation or background in how you arrived at this opinion.
What exactly does "tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity" mean? What sort of "free-flowing image abroad" do we have? How do the two contrast and/or from where do they derive?
Personally, I believe it derives from an outdated image of the ugly ill-mannerd American abroad with which you are subconsciously contrasting. Generally speaking, Americans are raised to be polite, well-mannered and considerate to others - especially to strangers and in public.
And if I might remind you, you are not exactly hanging out with the rowdiest crowd. The Washington DC bubble-boy syndrome of sycophantic conformity is a local disease. Get outside the deference-belt and you'll find a cornucopia of different styles, attitudes and manners.
All of which you can then passive-aggressivly deride by asking questions you neither support nor answer yourself.
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As a country I do believe we need to grow up... But there are also so many misconceptions about this place. If you go from New York to Colorado to California as someone who knows nothing of the states at all, it would seem like you were visiting different countries that all happen to speak the same language.
It is true that our pop-culture and media influences the world because it is what we pump out in the most volume and splay out for everyone to see. The only way we're going to change the world's view of us as a nation would be to completely change our pop culture (too much money being tossed around for that to ever happen), or for every person in the world to visit here at least once and travel from place to place to get a taste of the diversity and culture.
I am here working at a data center for a healthcare company that runs 12 hospitals and ~72 clinics just in this state. All we are dedicated to is making sure we have 99.999% up time with all systems to keep people alive, keep these places running, and serve the ‘customer’ the best. How amazing is that? A friend living 100 miles away went to college just to learn what he loved, he does it out of his garage now while working a regular job, just because he loves doing it. Not too many other places would even allow that, let alone encourage it.
This is an amazing country, it is also a broken country to a certain extent, and we do need to grow up. When it comes down to someone who can look like they are crying very convincingly on screen being more well-known and renowned than someone who won a Nobel Prize for advancements in medicine in this country.. Something is definitely out of place. People here throw more money at a single movie in a weekend than an entire cancer fund-raiser can gather in a week. People need to wake up here… there are things more important than whether or not Megan Fox is going to be in a new movie.
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What's this about 'adolescent' and 'grow up'? Sounds pretty condescending, perhaps even biased. This will sell well with some, but it is not a good way to reach out to those who are not already of your mind set. Mr. Mardell, if you want a sympathetic reading in the USA, perhaps you should avoid terms that indicate prejudice.
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So, why do we want to be the leader of the world's leaders? If we were to give up our "sole superpower" status, how would that affect us? So, we wouldn't be able to wipe out the combined forces of the world. Really, who cares? We've had that ability for a while now, and it's been of little use. We could pare back considerably and still not be in any danger of invasion.
No one wants to say this during a time of war, but we're going into hock in big part because we spend 500 billion dollars a year on the military. If we were to return to where we were 65 years ago, would life be all that different than it is now?
Absolutely, we wouldn't be drowning in debt.
World War II is over. The cold war is over. Time to return to a multi-polar world. Time to return to perfecting our imperfect union. There's much to be done.
Growing up means putting away our toys.
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...I've been struck by the tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity of much of American society compared to its rather more free-flowing image abroad. But is Prof Kurth right that it is time for America to put away childish things?
I find it interesting that many of those commenting here aren't aware of just how accurate the above description of American society actually is.
Anyone who's ever worked in business where formal working attire is a requirement, unless it's a "casual Friday" - and then there are limits to what you can wear, knows what tightly-buttoned means. There's almost no flexibility in business here. Show up to that job interview dressed casually and your employment dreams are toast - even if the office maintains a "business casual" dress code. And remember, gray, taupe, navy blue, black or brown is your friend.
Exaggerated deference. Courtesy in America is still considered de rigueur. Those who are not courteous are considered ill-mannered boors. Ever asked someone where they'd like to eat and, even if you're in the mood for something else, for whatever reason, gone along with their wishes? Ever held a chair or door for a woman? Ever let an unrelated male watch a sporting event when he's a guest in your home and should be talking to you or your other guests, and then said nothing? Ever waited to start eating until your host says, "tuck in"? Ever made up a plate of food for a guest to take home? Ever offered to let someone spend the night, because it's too late for them to get safely home? Ever held an elevator for a coworker, fellow tenant, or delivery man you didn't know? Ever said good morning to a stranger? If you've ever engaged in any of these forms of behavior or been on the receiving end of similar, you have been a victim of courtesy.
Politeness. Please, thank you, yes ma'am, no ma'am, good day, good afternoon, good evening, may I take your order, is everything all right here, how can I help you today, will you be wanting anything else with that, would you like some coffee, please take a seat, someone will be with you shortly, excuse me, pardon me, how are you, have a nice day. Those are all common everyday phrases we may say or have said to us as a matter of routine - and it's almost always done with a smile. It's so much a part of American culture that we hardly notice it - until we travel overseas.
Conformity - Ever heard, thought or said the phrase, "Where are his manners? Was he raised in a barn?"? Americans hate rudeness, even if they are rude themselves. Americans hate being treated less than courteously, even if they are less than courteous themselves. And the vast majority of us, no matter how poor we are, strive to be well dressed, courteous and polite wherever we are and whomever we are with. Without being aware of it, we conform to the standards of the community around us. Peer pressure rules. And those who don't conform quickly find themselves ostracized and without invitations to the dinner party, the poker game, the golf course or whatever social event the "nice people" get invited to.
As for the rest, I find Professor Kurth's idea that American leaders shouldn't project our traditional "soft power" image, because it's too juvenile, utterly ridiculous and deliberately misleading. As a conservative, I've no doubt the professor prefers the Eisenhower cultured businessman/military man image, or the hardy and stolid Texas rancher/brush clearer myths spun by Bush's I & II, or even the Reagan cowboy facade to Harry Truman's "everyman" barbecuing on the White House lawn, Bill Clinton's avid runner finishing up at a local McDonald's, and Obama's burger eating sports fanatic persona. These must grate on his nerves and remind him of his feckless, irresponsible students.
He probably doesn't have much respect for these young people. And he seems to forget that American popular culture, our music, our films, our fashions, our world wide web (No arguments on who invented the technology, please. American investment and know how made it accessible) even our fast food, have helped to Americanize the planet so as to make popular democracy desirable, because everyone but the most hardened cynic wants to feel young and free.
Professor Kurth's argument reminds me of those stodgy old folks or the very young, who think the Baby Boomer generation ought to have gone home and sat down in their rocking chairs as soon they had children. Instead, we kept on going to concerts, clubs and doing the things we loved. Obama's public image may not be what Kurth imagines a President ought to project, but it's his image in private that counts. People take you seriously when you are serious. Nothing else matters in the end. Cultivating a facade of mature dullness would simply turn young people off to America. And it's the young people we want to influence. Get 'em while they're young and impressionable. And, whether they want to be American or not, they'll absorb those parts of American culture that seem most valuable to them. Which will in time help turn the world into one big melting pot, i.e, the Global Village that makes a future of peace and prosperity, rather than animosity and violence, more likely.
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You call this country childish, that we need to grow up? Ok, then by who's example should we follow? Who is the mature parent of the world willing to show us the errors of our ways and teach us right from wrong? Or more to the point: who's big and bad enough to spank us for misbehaving? Oh wait, no one. I contend we are the parents, and yes we want what we want and we want it now because we work hard for what we want. Do not mistake our soft hand of diplomacy for weakness. Nor should you discount our military interventions as meddling in the affairs of others. We are the ones who watch over you, feed you and protect you. Its fine to call us childish now but, who will you turn to when your boarders are breached, when your food is gone, when the earthquake destroys your cities? What currency do you horde in your banks? You call the USA because you know we are here and we will help. We help because we believe in the equality of humanity and freedom, the freedom of equality. Not only do we believe this but we fight and die in your countries, on your shores, at your borders so that you might one day have that choice. If you think us childish, immature, an obstinate child then please by all means show us a better way. Now you are free to pick and clean to the bone my arguments. find fault with what I say, but before you do know that I am aware of our imperfections and besides do you really want to engage in intellectual conversation with a child?
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I am an American, of South Asian origin, and have grown up here. America always needs enemies (I suppose all massive empires do), and this self-fulfilling prophecy will continue to recycle itself, and destroy, as it did to empires such as the British. Colonizing others is an excellent way to make the phantom enemies become real, very quick. MagicKirin represents the sort of American who has not experienced the world outside, and thus regurgitates what the blatantly political right-wing Fox News, and Christian right use to create their enemies. They have no real understanding of the turmoil in the Muslim world - just a monolithic enemy, which serves the purpose. They also have no idea what life is really like in that part of the world.
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Oh please, spare me. Europe has leaders like Burlusconi, obviously the epitome of maturity. Maybe the U.S. should aspire to the same, or produce an ideology to rival European Fascism or Communism. Or we could take the Middle East as an example, and invent a new occupation like the assasin. Who needs your tired, worn out culture?
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I'm not sure if growing up is the proper diagnose.
My view of the problem with America is that capitalism had hijacked democracy. Just one example - the health care debate - there are six lobbyist to every law maker influencing legislations on health care reform alone.
A US citizen should ask the question - "How many of those lobbyists represent my interest?"
My count is zero. What's yours and does that bother you?
Americans need to understand that your elected officials give you lip services to get your vote the outcome of which is decided by the influence peddlers.
So, wise up, not grow up.
BTW: Don't hold your breath for your elected officials to help you on your health care problems. My three word advice works much better - [Eat well, exercise].
Since I'm at it, my financial advice is [Don't borrow money you don't have and do not have a plan to repay to buy things you don't need in the first place.]
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Growing up doesn't compare to the advertisements. I was younger once, full of energy, ambition and an overwhelming sense that things will get better. I'm older now and don't feel the same way.
Of course, there are some advantages I suppose. I don't get so wrapped up in things like I did when I was twenty. My marriage was always good, but now it is great, partly because I stopped getting twisted in a knot over things I once thought were important.
I don't bicker with people and things like I used to. I once cared about politics and what effect legislation would have on the lives of poeple in my country. I once cheered for heroes and booed the villians. Since I've grown up, however, I just don't care as much anymore and can't bear the idea of too many things disturbing my rest and my routine.
Squeezing the toothpaste tube in the middle? Not a big deal anymore. The lawn didn't get mowed this week? No problem. The wife spent too much money on nonsense? Totally ok with me. Terrorists in my back yard? Monday Night Football is still on, right?
There is no question I've grown up. You've grown up, Europe grew up, Africa is growing up, China is growing up quickly, Russia grew up in a big way, so did Germany. Britain grew up too.
We've all grown and matured and are living a good adult life. We don't bicker about things like we used to and life is better really. We don't get angry about the late bills or the missed deadlines or the bombings and the beheadings and the killing and the maiming like we used to.
And really, why should we? It's all so disturbing to think about and what's the point? Being young and tough minded and more than willing to jump on the bandwagon to fight these things is for the immature and the unsophisticated who should learn to calm down and be more reflective and adult.
Yes, a "measured" response is what is needed when life tosses a challenge at you. A thoughtful, relaxed and mature approach to your marriage, your work, your Nazis, and your Islamist jihadis is the way to go. Otherwise, people may judge you to be adolescent and childish and you will end up with sleeping on the couch and thousands of war dead buried in France and Belgium and Holland and elsewhere. Very rash and childish indeed.
However, when you can hold back your emotions and not get overly upset or act rashly when your boss wrongs you or when your kids drop out of college or when pnaes fly into buildings or when bombs go off on trains or public transport or when Nick Berg's head gets cut off on TV, or when Daniel Pearl's throat is sliced while he's reading a prepared statement, you know you've grown up and are maturing in a very important way.
Here's to growing up, chilling out, relaxing, taking it easy, not fussing about so much, talking through your differences and really making the world a much better place thanks to your maturity and sophistication.
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I'm always puzzled about one fact of the way the US sees itself especailly the way US contributors to these blogs see the US. No one ever seems to mention what is, in my opinion, the greatest contribution the US has made to the world and that must be music and films.
tim
It seems immature to me to position entertainment as the most signficant contribution of America. Democracy including the Bill of Rights was our most significant contribution, followed closely by innovation--telegraph, telephone, phonograph, electric light, computers, space travel. Third was the destruction on the Kaiser, the Third Reich, and (via indirect means) the Soviet Union. These are all more important than Homer Simpson and the Terminator put together.
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Kurth mentions "soft power" as the correct alternative to "hard" power. Does he even understand the true meaning of "to manipulate rather than force"? Yes, effective, but it is not pretty. People forget that this "soft" power is what the CIA does all the time. It's not about "hearts and minds" it's about setting your enemies against each other. It is about assassinations and fomenting discontent. It's about ensuring that peace is never achieved, lest we deal with its consequences. At least with "hard" power you can meet your enemy on the battlefield, rather than have your home destroyed from within.
So I would not wish too hard for the US to "grow up" lest it become too good at its methods
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I don't think America is either buttoned up or free-flowing; we're many things at once, and I don't think one can encapsulate it without living here for a long while and moving around a good bit. I think the author reads us very incorrectly.
Our fundamental point of commonality is the societal values that allow such a variety (usually.) Many different outward beliefs and conventions exist under one roof here, but the common touchstone (except with extremists who are viewed as extreme particularly because they are seen as dangerous to the constitution and the American system) is that we believe in our way of life -- not necessarily our politicians, but the ideal of what the system should be in this country. That drives us in many different directions, but most of us are sipping from the same well.
Has America failed itself and harmed others at various points in history? Of course we have. Our own longstanding racial issue is more than a testament to that. And our legacy in the developing world is not laudable. It's unfortunate that so many of us bury these things and do not address them, but that is human nature.
Our attitude abroad, unfortunately, does not reflect our fundamental respect for each others' rights or cultural investment in our political system -- we tend, particularly in the last eight years, to stomp all over other people's rights of national self determination. We have failed, badly, in viewing the rest of the world as people with their own rights. We have become too enmeshed in the realpolitik mentality of picking leaders that suit our agenda (an agenda that most Americans seem only partially aware of.)
That said, we need to start respecting other cultures and stop tooting our own horn and start realizing that much of the world do not share the cultural influences and we cannot impose our views and way of life upon others. We need to also realize that we merely create enemies in doing so. I think more than anything, it is often hypocrisy and inability to show respect back to others that harms us. Our fumdamental, constitutionally rooted respect for people's lifestyle choices and philosophies needs to extend outward, rather than stop at the border.
America does need to grow up, and stop dreaming of supposedly easy, unipolar, inviable fixes for complex problems, as the neoconservative movement has done, and start addressing reality rather than preferring the comforts of ideology and religion as a mechanism for denial. We need to stop thinking we should do it all and that everyone else is some sort of oafish peon waiting for direction (as the neoconservative movement, with their creepy Straussian philosophy tends to view the rest of the world -- that includes you UK -- as pawns in their scheme) and start showing respect in return.
I honestly don't care if the US stays a superpower. In many ways, I wish the cup would pass, because too many of my fellow Americans think that being a 'great' nation is more important than being a good nation -- that is, power is prized over virtue, exceptionalism prized over exemplarism. We surely need to get our heads screwed on, and soon, or our pursuit of power will lead us once more into folly, as it did under Bush.
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All this talk about "Americans"... Let see: the owner of the corner restaurant was born and raised in France, and his wife is Korean and English; my dad's parents came from Canada and Ireland; my mum's folks from the UK and Germany. My best friend is black and anglo, by other besty is Jewish; my buddy is married to a Ukranian - Exactly WHERE are these "Americans" you are describing?
And "Conformity"? Our friends are members of the Green Party, Straight, Gay, Tall, Short, Eccentric, Conformist, Law-abiding, Lawless, Young, and Old, Creative and Unimaginative - again, where are the "Americans" you have described?
Exactly WHO does Mr Mardell associate with? Perhaps the European press corps in North America IS quite "tightly buttoned", but as for these Americans - that would be the LAST word I would use to describe these people!
May I suggest Mr Mardell leave his New York penthouse, get in an automobile - preferably and old, prone-to-breaking-down vehicle - and DRIVE across the continent?
Oh, and take the "blue highways" not the interstate freeway. Get lost, Mardell. Walk into a smoky bar with sawdust on the floor and chat-up the bartender. Wander up and down the west coast barefoot picking up shells. Talk with strangers. Get drunk at a Portuguese wedding.
And at the end of summer, don't forget to attend the Burning Man Festival in Nevada - the fly in the ointment regarding your theory of the "politeness and conformity of much of American society".
Apparently, Sir Mardell, you have spent way too much time, sitting in you room, brooding and staring at the wall!!!
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ref #117
I am not sure hate crimes are on the increase; I think the reporting (due to the information age)and outrage has increased.
Remember in the 60 people in certain parts of the country went to lynching as a sporting event.
An I think that most americans except for the extremists on both sides get outraged on these crimes speak to our increasing maturity and tolerance.
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There will be no America soon if Obama is allowed to keep up his antics
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Mardell notes that Kurth highlights America's strength originating from the appeal of it's ideals and culture, and then characterizes them as "childish", and suggests they be cast aside. As chaotic as American society is, the foundation of society are beliefs in basic human rights, the principles of individual freedom and the opportunity to better ones position in life. Ultimately America supports principles, and casting these aside may make America seem like a "mature adult" in the author's eyes, but would make America no better than every other country that has debased itself in the name of political expediency by taking the easy road.
Perhaps being idealistic is intrinsically childish. Perhaps he should speak with the immigrants from Latin America who arrive looking for opportunity, or from fill-in-the-blank of your favorite repressive/corrupt regime here, looking for freedom, and ask them if their dreams are childish. I doubt they would understand the question.
I do agree that part of America's strength is innovation. America spins off more innovations than any other country in the world, and the world benefits from America's investments (i.e.: pharmaceutical development) However, If I were to bet on which would be the best innovator, I would bet on the idealist dreamer over the mature adult any day of the week.
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Perhaps a new person has been assigned to the MK identity (post 134), which might explain the apparent decline in mastery of the English language.
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Ref 124, Gavrielle
Thank you for a wonderful post. Your examples of American politeness reminded me of a small incident that happened several years ago when my parents-in-law came from Spain to spend a few weeks with us in Maryland. I will never forget how impressed my mother-in-law was when we took them to the Smithsonian and several people held the doors open or step off the sidewalk when they saw her coming on her wheelchair, or the deference she enjoyed when we visited the White House and they allowed her, and I, to ride on a service elevator to visit the second floor, or the disbelief they expressed when we took them to a classical concert at the Kennedy Center and they commented that they didn't realize Americans were so sophisticated.
Sadly, the worst our society has to offer seems to dominate the news, and our movies and music often give an impression of life in America that is very different from who we are or what we value. Clearly, similar misconceptions can be found in our country when it comes to anything foreign and little effort is put forth by our government and the media to clarify them.
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"tightly-buttoned, exaggerated deference, politeness and conformity of much of American society"
I agree with that characterization, having lived several years in small towns in Alabama, Georgia and Arizona. I'll stick to my observations and thoughts of USA society being basically conformist, or better pluralistic conformist
Myself I count Americans as herd animals. The first question you'll be asked is what company/church-group you are belong to. Even the archetype loners/misfits, the Columbine shooters, where part of a group "trench-coat mafia". On the serious side this is why after 9/11 there was so much conjoined grief and latter 85%+ support for the invasion of Iraq. Definitely amazing and scary. On the silly side watch line dancing; everybody following the same steps, in synch but not connected to each other. So in USA society everybody belongs to and is pigeon-holed into some group.
Maybe this is why USA Popular Culture can be so irritating, it is based on the mob (oops majority) and the presumption that because we'all like it, so should you!
Fortunately, USA culture allows (sometimes barely) for fringe groups; innovators, thinkers, entrepreneurs. Maybe having such sub groups provides enough security, so that USA leads in innovation.
PS I use USA culture because Canadians (also North Americans) don't share the same culture as their neighbors.
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Well I don't know what "political commentaters" James Kurth is talking about when he states that there are people in Washington who carey a lot of waight and who heavily influence an administration's attitude toward, and policies regarding the international comunity in the above cited passage; I certainly have never heard of any. But I totally believe that such people exist, and that they desperately need to go back to college to relearn about how best to promote our interests abroad. ither that or be removed immediately from their posts.
However, I strongly disagree with Kurth's assertion that "American popular culture" is only attractive to adolescents and not mature adults!! What? Like people, once they hit the age of 20, automaticly become incensed and repulsed by Judy Garlond, Bruse Springsting and Billy Jole? As if those citizens of countries that aren't exactly our best friends (who were once adolescents themselves) who aquire the privilege of leading their respective countries aren't allowed to like, even in its smallest measurement, American culture, even though they may hate with a passion American foreign policy? That's simply ridiculous!! Yes popular culture should never, ever, be imposed (as Bush tryed to do with democracy during his illegal war in Iraq) on other countries, but there is a huge difference between imposition and diplomacy, and I don't see anything wrong with infusing a bit of American popular culture into our diplomatic actions abroad if it will help us achieve our goals. Just look at what it has already achieved regarding the nation which looks set to overtake us soon in nearly every field!! In the 1970s, China was a closed market economy to the rest of the world. Western countries (especially the US) had little, if any contact with it. In 1972 (I believe it was) president Nixon sent our Olimpic Ping Pong team over to China to play there's (uncompetitively, of course) in what later became known as "ping pong diplomacy." That opened the door to our low level officials talking, then our higher ones, until just a little over 30 years later, China is poised to take our place as the world's hegemonic super power. Not too shabby for "soft power!"
Hollywood is a business. Like any business, it will continue to export its products around the world so long as it can find customers willing to buy. If people around the world formulate a view of America and Americans based on what sells best in Hollywood, then I'm sorry, but I believe those people to be just as ignorant of America as many in the world believe the average American to be of the rest of the world. Someone on this blog said that people in the Middle East see the US as thugs, gangs and cow boys. Foreign policy aside, perhaps action films are most popular in the Middle East, but Hollywood makes films about all kinds of people both in and outside of America. From "Big Mamma's House" (set in rural Georga,) to "New in Town" (set in Minnesota,) to "Cold Mountain" (a civil war epic based in the deep south.) From political and critical drammas such as "The Megestic" (a film about a wholly innocent American blacklisted during the McCarthy era,) "W" (a deliberately dramatic look back and critique of the Bush administration,) and "Stop Loss" (chronicling the military's policy of breaking its promis to soldiers on how many tours of duty they must serve without breaks,) to colaborations with other countries on films such as "Last Chance Harvey" (a romantic comedy shot in London) and "Frost/Nixon" (detailing the interview between the BBC's David Frost and the disgraced former president Richard Nixon.)
I think sadly, in many respects Hollywood is unfairly portrayed and slammed just as much as Washington is.
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jeffzekas (#133), your observation that the United States is diverse is, of course, correct. But the point is that Americans are united by common values (in a broad sense; not in every detail), not by ethnicity. This is in contrast to Europe, where, despite the EU and the Lisbon Treaty and all that, conflict between ethnic groups has always been a significant force.
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51 thinkingchloe
"Thanks be to God, the States now has an Administration that is finally accepting the responsibilities and consequences of being a superpower."
But surely if God had anything to do with it John and Sarah would have won, then John have a mysterious accident (how very old testament) and Sarah would be leading the world to Armageddon.
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@jeffzekas
Amen, brother. I think our correspondent friend's spent too much time in the parlors of Manhattan. Hardly the most diverse climate. Brooklyn, Staten Island, Queens, Jersey and Upstate aren't that far away, and you can find a great variety without going too far.
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8 magic
"That Ilsmamic facism [sic] is the main problem...."
We all know that Magic can't or won't use a spell-checker, but 13, 33 and others repeat the spelling errors.
"Facism" must be not liking someone's face - bad to make value judgements like that but surely no threat to the world
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What a refreshing discussion. Many very intelligent observations. So much more informative than a FoxNews scream-a-thon. My two cents:
America will surpass all of its previous achievements by simple hard work, confidence in the future, and a willingness to accept any challenge. We will discover new unheard of energy resources because we must. We will share our this with everyone. We will find new cures for old diseases, again, because we must. We will also find new solutions to ancient animosities because we must in order to save ourselves. All of this we will share with anyone willing to share with us. We will also make many mistakes doing all of this.
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@ 113
Not picking on you per se, but the reason we have a military that "sits around" and doesn't police the streets is due to the founding fathers realizing what an easy situation that creates for someone in power to use the military against the people, something our current "leader" would do if given half a chance. This is precisely why the US maintains separate bodies and duties for policing and defense. Too easily the people can become the enemy of the state with the military policing it's own citizenry. Don't they teach this basic concept in the US' overly left-wing education system anymore? Or is it just more important to teach sharing your sippy cup with your mates?
@ 114
Very well thought out post, it's a shame that this disconnect between how most Americans really feel and the way the world seems to see us exists. Most American's really DO want to see the world get better... thats why they blindly allow money to go abroad and contribute to UNICEF despite it's corruption, and countless other organizations feeling that their own good fortune should be shared.
Because we are not a "people" first, it is our strength and weakness. We are perplexed at the rest of the world's attempt to pigeon hole us, since in our own country we expect virtually every view and creed to exist. It is our strength in that we generally tolerate (not always accepting) people with differences more than we are ever given credit on the global stage, and don't write off entire cultures as having inherent issues that can't be addressed. Naive, perhaps, simply selfish certainly not, and more generous in action than most countries can claim.
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Sorry folks, we have no plans to "grow up".
Indeed, give me one country or even politician who's doing well with this mass media exploitation!!
Change is in our blood.
China? Russia? Great Britian?!!!
I understand, you're just following what you see in the media.
America is to big and diverse to be held in a sound byte.
My daddy always told me:
"Never try to outshout a fool, me might be trying to do the same thing".
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The complexity of the US is astounding as is the variety of comments here, providing "the answer" to the maturity of the country and how it could be so much better if........ Unfortunately Mr. Kurth has hit upon the same old formula that will bring out the "Anti" as well as the "Pro". Considering the way the World apes the US in dress, dance, slang, etc. I would much prefer seeing his comments regarding a vertical dissection by age (no matter what nationality). Young people follow trends (surprise!)if for no other reason than to disturb their parents. I just finished reading an article reporting on Iran that cut through the rhetoric and instead told how the young Iranians love Cokes,iPhones, US tv shows, etc. Don't wait for the US to grow up and instead wait for the adopters, world wide, to join the ranks of the older, "serious" thinkers.
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29 nicolesarkiss
"when I travel to other countries and meet real people ... when you say you are American people smile and shake your hand, because ... they know differences between American and past European culture."
No, it's nothing to do with prefering current US policy to previous European policy.
It's simply because most people can see the difference between YOU, an American, and the actions of your government. There is very little hatred of "Americans" as individuals so you should not be surprised that people abroad treat you nicely. Most people in the world are nice and polite - often more so in developing nations.
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31 ramble-rabbit
"Zimbabwe is a disaster truly in need of aid, but the citizenry allowed thugs backed by the government to take the food producing land away from people who knew how to farm it"
You've rambled into madness. The citizenry realised very quickly that if they stood up to the thugs then they tended to die violently and quickly. One can hardly blame the people in a dictatorship for the sorry state they find themselves in.
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32 Zeroknots
"attempts to install self professed COMMUNIST Czars"
Communist czars must be a contradiction-in-terms. CF Russian Revolution.
From your paranoid and uninformed rant and your liberal usage of inflamatory terms (communist, fascist, Hitler etc) yo show everyone that your user-name is in fact the speed at which your brain works.
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37 winnie40
"but hey lets be honest they get little support from the rest of the world. Russia, China and the like are very, very self centred"
Russia and China are indeed self-centred, but they are not pretending to hold some sort of international moral high ground, as the USA does.
I am not anti-USA - I travel there frequently and love it every time, but the USA sets itself high moral station in the world and then gets upset if people take it to task.
Great to see lots of new names coming in .... I guess Mark hit a six with this post!
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#130 Tommy1178
I'm not going to get into this who invented what argument with you it's being going one for far to long as has also the who won which war argument.
I will take issue with your the US invented democracy claim because it's nonsense. The greater part of your constitution and 'Bill of Rights' was drawn from the works of two men, one Tom Paine an Englishman and the other Baron Montesquieu a Frenchman. The democratic idea had been circulating round Europe for about a 2000 years starting with ancient Greece.
Thanks for the Jazz, R & B Rock 'n Roll and all the rest and feel happy about that, it's a wonderful gift and we truly thank you for it. Your country is going through a tough time at the moment as are others I wish you well and hope that the US and Europe continue to be friends and allies
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49 jmagrud
"Mr. Berlusconi undeniably needs to grow up in some of his sexual attitudes."
At 73 he may well be deep in his 2nd childhood - perhaps reliving the randy late teenage years!
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I have to agree that the US culture needs to grow up . I am constantly bemused by the contradictions here of deft politeness and bumper stickers promoting "shock and awe" ...fear of nudity and not of 15 year olds owning guns and driving trucks ! The juxtopositions are endless.. state of the art medecine unavailable to great swathes of the population and electricity grids run on 200 year old poles while super fast cable runs buried beneath , arrogance about being the leading democracy in combination with mindblowing ignorance about the wider world and polling stations that don't work....... there is much that is good but lots of room for growth ! I for one wish that the politicians in Washington could grasp that and allow this administration to achieve some of what has been needed to be done for so long ....
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52 bellaterra
"As for exaggerated deference and politeness -- what US is he talking about? I've lived all over The US, though mainly in California and now New Mexico. Americans, generally, are rude and disrepectful."
I think Mark is referring to the constant "Sir" / "Madam" / "Have a nice day" stuff that is common in the American service industry.
It's sort of fake-politeness, but better than nothing, but it does come over as a little excessive to many Europeans. But then our customer service is so far the other way that we are not used to any form of politeness, fake or otherwise.
Also I've traveled alot in the USA - 18 different states - and I don't think Americans are rude at all. Big cities make rude people - check out Londoners on the tube in rush hour, or Romans double-parking and blocking everything.
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If they don't trip themselves up, China will surpass the USA as the dominant superpower within a generation. It will be in the position much like the USA is today where the international community will hang on its every move, rebuff its friendship or plead for its help, question its motives and marvel at its accomplishments, snicker at its shortcomings and ponder its peoples. The USA will still continue on as the strongest light in the west but will just not be able to match power and appetite of China.
So, Britain, what should the USA do when it finds itself on the downward slope of the mountain?
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61. tribeca8 wrote:
"I would say that the United States should remain an adolescent country in terms of its optimism, its openness, its entrepreneurial spirit, and its ability to accept new ideas and new peoples. Americans are people who are used to reinventing ourselves and that is a very healthy attitude."
I agree.
Let's hope the US can reinvent itself as a country that cares about all its citizens.
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RE #21: While I agree with most of what Interested Foreigner wrote, there is an important difference. I agree that Education has deteriorated, but there is a very pronounced anti-intellectualism and anti-science attitude in some places. Here in the Boston area people have a great respect for those things. It is said that if you throw a rock in Boston you are more likely than not to hit a professor or university student. In other places they look at you strangely if you speak well and some want to replace science with religion in the schools.
As to the US being “not grown up,” it would be more valid to see the US as having grown up to the point of being self satisfied, overconfident and even decadent. The US has the oldest continuously functional government, with the least major changes, of all. The problem is not one of youth but of age, meaning that the US needs a reawakening.
I have often bemoaned the Hollywood youth culture, but it may be the flip side of America’s success. Take a look at Shakespearian England or Renaissance Italy and you see that creative societies tend to have a dark side. The US has a cyclical history of this sort, with periods of high ideals and low, corruption and integrity.
The Hollywood/youth culture is not all bad. It doesn’t have much of a good effect if people just wear blue jeans and T-shirts, but if they pick the wheat from the chaff and adopt a liberal tolerant lifestyle it very well could.
Mark was right about some areas being up tight [=tightly buttoned = buttoned up?], examples being the Bible belt for religion and “morality,” New England for formality or Yankee reserve. These vary not only by region but by age, class and ethnicity. While we are not a classless society, it is possible to rise quickly here, and to fall equally quickly.
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Sounds like the Chinese talking about the Japanese in the mid 1930's, or the French talking about Germany a couple of years later.. antagonizing "adolescents" has not proven a good stragegy.
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If America does not reach puberty very rapidly, then the free capitalist society which they currently enjoy, will rapidly be extinct and they will become the United States Socialist Republic. Does that remind you of anything?
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Philly-Mom for Vice-President in 2012 !!!!!
Such wisdom belongs to everyone .... keep it up!
I like you much more than Alaska-mom!
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Wow. Look at all the responses. All the tangents. All the themes. Some flung wildly, while many others well-shaped with cohesive points, and supported by insightful examples. Wish your blog did some of that. I just mean that with such a loose bag of big terms (power, leadership, influence, adolescence, politeness, conformity, free-flowing), put forth in such a friendly, yet quick-n-generic-n-vague-made-for-airport-lounge-viewing way, frustrates me as to what point(s) you're making, or inviting discussion on. It's pretty inference-y, but inferencing what exactly? Those big terms don't seem to be linked in any concrete way.
But I do agree with the earnest guesswork (great points and insights – each citing examples) of jmagrud, jacog3 and graywolfman.
Still, maybe your whole point was on U.S. global leadership in the fashion arena, specifically toe rings? Tube socks? No wait... Moral leadership via technological dominance in the ringtone market? Cultural influence by way of cleverly-combined pizza toppings? Gestures!! Obama should cease all fist bumps?
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InLosAngeles wrote:
I am an American, of South Asian origin, and have grown up here. America always needs enemies (I suppose all massive empires do), and this self-fulfilling prophecy will continue to recycle itself, and destroy, as it did to empires such as the British. Colonizing others is an excellent way to make the phantom enemies become real, very quick. MagicKirin represents the sort of American who has not experienced the world outside, and thus regurgitates what the blatantly political right-wing Fox News, and Christian right use to create their enemies. They have no real understanding of the turmoil in the Muslim world - just a monolithic enemy, which serves the purpose. They also have no idea what life is really like in that part of the world.
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First I have been outside the country many time for both business and pleasure. I also read NYT and listen to the BBC as well as watching Fox News.
Believe me I am many things( most of which are good) but I am not a member of the Christian right or the Orthodox Jewsih right.
You seems to paint people with a broad brush, I happened to be a fiscal foriegn policy social liberal.
as far as a monolithic view of the moslem world, I have only commented on the moslems in the middle East who for the most part are silent in combating Islamic terrorism. The average msoelm in the U.S does not have this problem.
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109. nails01 wrote:
"Is this anything new? We have been hearing this from the left for years on end. "
That may well be so, but it appears now that you are hearing it from the right ..... the Faaaaar Right.
James Kurth is a Conservative Rebublican evangelical Christian, who thought Bush's policies were too weak.
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113 sinshiva
"Sorry for the lack of any kind of indentation."
Apology accepted, but if you mean it, will you use some paragraphs next time. Those big blocks of print are kind of hard to read - I'm sure I'm not alone in skipping them, and I'm here primarily to exchange views, learn from others, have a bit of a laugh and play mind games with Marcus!
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138. At 6:53pm on 26 Oct 2009, saintDominick wrote:
Sadly, the worst our society has to offer seems to dominate the news, and our movies and music often give an impression of life in America that is very different from who we are or what we value. Clearly, similar misconceptions can be found in our country when it comes to anything foreign and little effort is put forth by our government and the media to clarify them.
That is altogether too true! Last summer I had a friend a from Scotland visiting and we went to a local Mexican restaurant. A group of Polish tourists came in and without waiting to be seated took over a table that has a standing reservation every Sunday afternoon for a large Spanish family that comes in after church. The owner asked them to move because the family had already been waiting for the table to be cleared. They refused and became loud and obstreperous.
Anyway, the police were called and my friend got nervous. But the police were very professional. Polite, but firm. The tourists left, the family sat down and my friend wondered why there hadn't been a great deal of cussing followed by a shoot out! It never fails to amaze me, the misconceptions everyone has about life in America. They know their own television and film doesn't always accurately portray life in their countries, why would ours? And the things that are accurately portrayed are discounted as "fantasies" that couldn't possibly exist.
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115. mischievousdoug wrote:
"If the USA is so screwed up and adolescent, how have we done so well over the 200 years. ...... The America haters out there should think twice about the future; what will fill the void?"
Most of you have done well, but there is a growing underclass that is largely ignored by the average American - just look at the grief the current administration is getting for trying to improve their lot.
And please note, constructive criticism of the US does not equate to hatred. That is just in your mind, and I would counsel you to read people's views more crefully and not to put words in their mouths (keyboards?).
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On the same subject, Kurth also wrote that "Similarly, with all the talk among American political leaders and commentators about American “idealism”, and the attractiveness of American values to the rest of the world, it is usually forgotten that most of the political leaders in other countries are realistic men making sensible calculations about their nation’s interests (and their own). They expect the leaders of other countries, including the United States, to do the same. This is particularly true of the current leaders of China and Russia. Having learned all about the claims of ideology when they were growing up, and having put ideology aside when they became adults, they cannot really believe that U.S. political leaders in turn really believe that American ideals should be promoted for their own sake, for their “universal validity”, rather than as a legitimation or cover for U.S. interests. If American leaders want to lead such leaders of other countries, they will have to act in the style of realists, and not in the style of idealists."
First, US leaders do too make "sensible calculations about their nation's, and their own, interests!! What sane person wouldn't seak the head of their nation's government without their nation's best interests at heart? Second, I agree more with the latter point, however might I just say that our values, while they are indeed "universally valid," that yes, I agree, they should never be promoted around the world for that fact. Instead they should be promoted (with the greatest of care and diplomacy, of course) because history has tought us that countries that opporate on the basis of these values are, in fact, less unstable and more peaceful than countries that don't. And a peaceful world is in every nation's interest!!
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122 canopus
"Mr. Mardell, if you want a sympathetic reading in the USA, perhaps you should avoid terms that indicate prejudice."
Did you read past the headline of this blog?
Don't shoot the messenger. The idea that America should be more "mature" both domestically and internationally come from the article this blog is about. Mark Mardell is simply giving us the chance to debate and react to this idea.
Also please note that the author James Kurth is a conservative republican evangelical christian. Why he didn't say this 8 years ago is a question for another day!
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- I wonder...if America is as bad as some make it out to be, why are so many risking life and limb to come here?
- I've traveled pretty extensively in Europe and the Far East, and there are some things about American's behavior that make me uncomfortable, but the over-riding goodness of the American people amazes me. When disaster strikes anywhere in the world there will be an American relief response. It might be interesting to distinguish between "America" (Geography, Government, liberties, etc...) and the "Americans" to which some have been exposed. Most Americans don't travel, so I suspect the sample of those that do to might be quite different than "the heartland".
- Growing up....what does that even mean? Can we define a scale? (If you haven't "nuked" anyone, you're mature...if you practice genocide, you might not be). Which country is "mature", and what does mature even mean in this discussion. Every "mature" country I can think of has engaged in some aggressive or war-like activity in the past 100 years.
I think that the most fascinating aspect of this discussion to me has been the characterization of America and Americans. O.k...we don't do everything correctly. Who does? (Maybe Canada...who could be angry at a Canadian?? grin..)
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With as many prestigous acolades as this guy has, I am personally frankly amaised at the rather premature conclusion he has drawn regarding America's strengths and potencial in the future.
He seems to think that industrial and financial strength go hand and hand, and furthermore that industry is like natural resources. That once its gone its gone, and there's no way to get it back. So because China is set to overtake us in terms of industrial output, that within a mere decade or two, the Chinese currency will overtake the US dollar as the predominant one in the world, and that the US, if it doesn't cling to its technology for dear life, will soon be little more than a trigger happy footnote in the history books.
I think that while we should obviously invest in and enhance our technology, industry is not all dead, and can be revived. Many of Obama's speaches mirror this.
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"They include optimism, friendliness, a certain naivete, a belief that one can get ahead with hard work, a belief that one can reinvent oneself, a belief in new ideas."
I love that- I believe, more than any other comment, that describes most Americans.
I probably am a tad naive- certainly optimistic. But what is wrong with that?
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Aloha,
If we Yanks act like children it's because we are encouraged to by:
1. Constant dumb down advertising appealing to basic self centered indulgence
2. Dumbing down of education. A system based on a mean that is geared for all
3. Vicarious lives through TV, movies , facebook etc etc
Nothing new it is the old Roman rule of give the masses circuses and bread while keeping them in a position of preoccupied struggle to keep their head above water. Easier to manage.
So you Brits have it different?
We are in deep dodo but there is an awakening. I went to college on the Korean GI Bill it and other GI educational bill created a middle class which is now eroded 40%. It took today's extreme but we are pissed off.
PS at 80 seen a lot of change a great deal for the good.
LOVE BBC
Namaste
Rev Ray
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Great thread!
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Maturity: the capacity a) to take responsibility for one's own actions, and b) to reach far enough past one's own ego that the needs of others are seen on at least a theoretical par with one's own.
Why is this a problem?
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28. At 12:17pm on 26 Oct 2009, reubenr wrote:
“…It may be a nice place to visit and it may produce some nice inventions, but, currently, it is a hell hole in which to live. It lacks a sole, meaning, organizing principal, which organisms require to evolve.”
If I have not misunderstood you, I disagree with you completely.
A sole meaning, organizing principle, and [perhaps] religion and social outlook? That sounds totalitarian, a direction in which the EU seems to be moving. As long as the states, regions, cultures and other groups leave others alone the diversity is good. Only when one of them gets the idea that we need a single, solitary or sole purpose does it become destructive.
30. At 12:22pm on 26 Oct 2009, dceilar wrote: “Anyway, assimilation is IMO inherently racist. It's like saying 'Jews are welcome here, just as long as you don't act so Jewish!'
Multiculturalism is still the way to go I say. There's been a lot of debate in the UK about this recently (as you may know), but has more to do a general feeling of powerlessness due to Governments not being interested in the opinions of their electors. This has been brewing for decades.”
I disagree to some extent, depending upon what you mean by assimilation and multiculturalism. To take an extreme example, would you accept cannibals and embrace their culture? Would you strive to bring your culture in line with cannibalistic immigrants?
The problem with PC Ultraliberals is that not assimilating and trying to protect incompatible cultural practices requires self-abnegation and may lead to cultural suicide. Shouldn’t immigrants seeking a better life embrace the culture that accepts them? Having lived in Asia and the Middle East, I assure you that when you live there you are expected to assimilate, at least superficially.
Your choice of Jews is bizarre. There are different “Jewish” cultures and they do not necessarily agree with or assimilate each other. None of these groups are so alien that they pose a problem, as long as the ultraorthodox refrain from stoning people who don’t follow Shabat.
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One thing that needs to be considered by everyone, Brit and American alike, is that just like you guys, the majority of us just don't really give much thought (or care, really) to how the rest of the world perceives. Just like you, we go about our business, work, play, eat, sleep, etc. Whether people in another country likes how I go about these things is really low on my priority list.
And, why should I care? Yes, an Arab or a Tutsi may find my lifestyle repugnant or intolerable, but, just like you, I'm not shopping for a moral monitor at this point.
Our new president has said words something like: "The world has depended on us to solve its problems while hating us for doing it. Perhaps it's time for the world to address its own problems". Are you ready for that? Sure, it sounds like what you want, but do you have the motivation to address the growing threat of militant islamism? If your answer is to "follow Chamberlain" or "leave them alone and they'll be peaceful", then I suggest that you're not.
It's not easy being the hated American, but it has been necessary for a very long time. Step up to the plate, spend your own time and money, and we'll talk about American lifestyle vs public perception. In the meantime, yes, we'll continue to send food, money, clothing, and other needed help when you have your next disaster that you're totally unprepared for.
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Perhaps the viewpoint expressed, has missed the mark a bit. The problem with Americans, is they simply indulge themselves far too much, with "things", think only about getting rich, and believe that everything in life should be "fun".
As for being mature, and putting things into a proper priority, for now and the future.....well, I haven't seen a single country on the planet, do that, as yet, and I really don't expect to see it, in my lifetime, anyway.
People, as I have found in my travels, are quite the same in most places, save a few variances in skin tone, and cultural heritage. So, in reality, Americans are pretty much the same as people in most other countries, except a little more spoiled, by lots of goods, and foolish notions about fun.
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75. At 3:04pm on 26 Oct 2009, mindxavierbloggz wrote:
“What is really needed therefore is a collective will to do this and this should come from the UN which after all does have a world wide membership…. The UN now with the ultimate power would sort out the policing problems using ALL resources and not just the token it has now.”
At the risk of sounding like some of the more right-wing posters, just how is an organization controlled by corrupt and non- or anti-democratic governments going to do a good job of running the world?
Do you know the membership of the human rights committee? Would you like Libya, China or Russia policing the world?
76. At 3:09pm on 26 Oct 2009, T1m0thy wrote:
#38 MagicKirin
"’I would argue the belief system expoused by Iran and Al Quada and their suggorates are in the same category.’ [sic]
What makes you think that Iran and Al Qaeda share the same beliefs?”
I seldom agree with MK, but you are imposing a disingenuous slant here. He said category, and should have said beliefs, not belief. They seem to share the ideas/beliefs that: USA = Great Satan, that the West is immoral, that women are not equal to men, that democracy [as the west understands it] is not acceptable, etc.
But, MK I agree with 93. At 4:22pm on 26 Oct 2009, expertUSPatriot wrote:
To MagicKirin."
And, moreover, your posts seem to be becoming unreadable and incomprehensible.
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"Anyway, assimilation is IMO inherently racist. It's like saying 'Jews are welcome here, just as long as you don't act so Jewish!'" (from dceilar at #30)
assimilate: "c. to absorb into the culture or mores of a population or group" (from Merriam-Webster.com)
Assimilation in the sense defined here is not at all racist. It means only that immigrants of whatever ethnic group accept the values of American society generally, so as to function within it. It is not required that ethnic or racial groups give up the values of their own culture which are extraneous to the larger purpose of building a civil society.
American Jews are assimilated. When they practice the rituals of their faith, and respect the rituals of other faiths, they are accepting the core American value of free exercise of religion as espoused in our First Amendment.
Most immigrant groups to the United States are assimilated in that they function within the society at large, while preserving whatever aspects of their own culture they wish to retain.
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All I have to say about many of these comments, is it's pretty unfair how many of you are basing your opinion of America as a whole based on its leader's actions. Many of you say that because American leaders have chosen to fight a somewhat misguided war in the Middle East, and have dragged many countries into it, that the entirety of Americans are selfish and a big group of idiots. Keep in mind that there is a big gap between the mindset of politicians and the mindset average citizen in America.
Even now, Obama's approval rating hovers just above 50 percent and he's shown the sharpest decline in first-term popularity in any American president in a very long time. Don't get me started on the approval rating for Congress. How is it possible that Americans can elect politicians that they will eventually become hateful of? It's because all "good" politicians are really good at campaigning by making really good sounding promises without actually having a plan.
American citizens are tired of fighting, tired of losing loved ones in wars that should never have happened as they are, tired of spending money that isn't really there, and tired of being stepped on time and time again by their power hungry commercial and political leaders. But the war wages on, Obama spends more money since the 40s, and companies like AIG still perform poor economic practices while rewarding themselves with "stimulus money" that is borrowed to begin with, while Congress stalls time and time again on fixing anything properly.
Its clear now, just as it was with Bush, that Americans aren't fully backing the actions of their leaders. Therefore it is unfair to judge the entire population on the actions of the higher few. Actually take the time to visit the States and meet the real people there. You may or may not be surprised of what you find.
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Thank you for the link to the Kurth article, Mr Mardell & BBC. Of course, a detailed response to his main points would have to examine the merit of the criteria named, and how one defines them: "superiority" and "power."
Just as an example, "power" generally implies the capacity to sustain one's influence over time, by ensuring a succession of successors committed to the operating model & its core belief system. Thus, in many ways, an adult male's "power" (as well as a woman's) was seen throughout history, in every society, as being insubstantial in the event no obvious, committed heirs, successors, assigns could carry on indefinitely for that person in their cause.
America today is so different from the USA of Truman's time, or even the Kennedys', that it is fair to raise the question whether 20 years down the road there will be any recognisable connection back to the Progenitrix America whose "superiority" Mr Kurth examines. What fills the geographical space between Canada & Mexico on the North American landmass may by 2030 be so far removed from the society which originally gave rise to the great fortunes, "great ideas" and great enterprises that then between 2006-2008 chose to drive the global economy off a cliff almost by deliberate acts of criminal negligence (still largely unaddressed, certainly mostly unprosecuted), as to really open up for the debate even the very notion of its Descent from An Event we date we associate with 4 July 1776, at N39° 57.1362', W075° 9.7421'.
The original USofA as conceived of by the Founders of that amalgamation of "states" lay claim to certain principles, and made promises to its citizens that no other ordered society had ever made before. Over time, most of these promises were extended to apply to non-landowners and to males younger than the ones originally envisioned by the Founders; eventually, also, to women; to the descendants of slaves most of the Founders had cheerfully owned as property; to others who came to dwell within the borders of that society, or who were absorbed by it (sometimes with shocking cruelty & deception). And today, increasingly, arguments are made for extending the promises even to persons who are non-citizens, or who have entered into the geographical zone defined by the USofA as "USofA" through violation of fundamental laws -- and in spite of such violations.
Meanwhile, the policies of the power elites and elected officials who govern the space that is "USofA" and administer its wealth have also changed dramatically from the policies originally set forth by Founders.
So what makes the superpower Mr Kurth analyses a legitimate aspirant to the title, "Descendant of and Successor to the sovereign nation established at N39° 57.1362', W075° 9.7421' on 4 July 1776?"
is it that a majority of people on earth agree that such is the case? is it that it so proclaims itself to be?
Many Americans (myself amongst them; i wonder if Mr Kurth would say as much) actually believe there was something special about that 1776 invention of the Founders, and that too much departure from the original recipe essentially dilutes the magic.
(For anyone reading who is allergic to the word "magic", let me just say it is a remarkably compact & efficient term that captures the je-ne-sais-quoi of so many aspects of existence that would simply require volumes to articulate in their full, empirically quantifiable and verifiable form...)
The America conceived of in 1776 had flaws, as do all human creations, but it was nonetheless an ingenious idea, and its practical implementation certainly had much to teach all sorts of interested parties.
Having lived in it for many of the years covered by Mr Kurth's article, i would fall into the camp of those who accept that the specific design & integrated mechanisms are NOT transferable, without significant modification, to other societies & populations.
As to the broader question being raised here, Mr Mardell, i thoroughly agree that "America" (the one we actually have on the planet, not the fictional p.r. version of either Democrats or Republicans or any other interest group) does indeed need to grow up.
it is a very immature and increasingly misguided political & commercial entity.
The only reason it ever attained the degree of clout (i would never call it "superiority" as Mr Kurth does) it enjoyed in the 20th century for a number of decades is that Europe pretty much self-destructed, thanks most emphatically to the private obsessions of one Otto von Bismarck.
One person can indeed do a great deal of damage. One person can also do a great deal of Good!
Fortunately, Europe has indeed recovered from the 20th century disasters brought on by reckless, grasping & insatiable men.
But in the meantime American immaturity has led a whole lot of people down a blind alley... and then to cap it all off, essentially vaporised the resources needed to get us all back out to some better place.
As for hard, incontrovertible evidence of American immaturity, i have plenty. But i will probably just put that into a separate response to this discussion, in a later post.
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28. At 12:17pm on 26 Oct 2009, reubenr wrote:
“…It may be a nice place to visit and it may produce some nice inventions, but, currently, it is a hell hole in which to live. It lacks a sole, meaning, organizing principal, which organisms require to evolve.”
Oh my word, no wonder you were miserable in the USA! It's definitely not the place for you if you think a good society must have one sole principle (sic). How about this one: leave me alone to pursue my own vision of the good life, and I'll leave you alone to do the the same. Freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of labor. Scary, huh?
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179 RScWilson
"Even now, Obama's approval rating hovers just above 50 percent and he's shown the sharpest decline in first-term popularity in any American president in a very long time."
Whether you support Obama or not, it is impossible not to understand why his ratings are low, when he seemed to hold so much promise.
We are in the middle of a recession, stuck in 2 wars and the US is trying to fix its healthcare system against the wishes of many who would most benefit from it .... and, no, he hasn't made it all better yet.
In his campaign he set out sensible long and short term objectives, and won the election. However the world in a recession and time of war is an unpredictable place and things take time.
Obama's approval ratings reflect only the short-term wish fulfilment desire inherent in all western societies, but far stronger IMO in the USA.
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#159 RomeStu
Behave I saw her first. Oh and Philly_Mom what is a Basque Bar Mitzvah please?
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@22 dceilar
btw are you suggesting that Britain has not yet actually grown up?
I don't disagree with your reasons for the 'loss' of the British Empire. But I wasn't talking about Britain's Empire, the gain as well as the loss of which occurrs substantially after the period I'm talking about. In fact this conflating of Britain and it's Empire (a very short period of the British Isle's history) is perhaps part of this residual superpower conceit I refer to. I was referring to the fact that Britain has struggled to adapt to its loss of Empire because it froze its sense of self at the moment when it was a superpower. The greatest strength of America is its ability to 'turn on a dime', culturally as well as economically - in short to act as a young, immature country. It will need this faculty when (as it inevitably will), it begins to lose its empire/hegemony.
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RScWilson (#179) "How is it possible that Americans can elect politicians that they will eventually become hateful of? It's because all "good" politicians are really good at campaigning by making really good sounding promises without actually having a plan."
No, it is because we elect only one congressman (or woman). Most members of Congress are well regarded in their own district. It is the ones from other districts we hate, and the way the Congress operates as a body.
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I'm an expat living in Los Angeles and must agree with maria-ashot. However, I cannot place the entire decline of europe on one man -- Otto von Bismark. Both parties within the United States continue their misguided power plays and cannot, as the old saying goes: "See the forest for the trees". An unfortunate extension of their egos.
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brokenground (#184) "The greatest strength of America is its ability to 'turn on a dime', culturally as well as economically ... "
I don't see this. A good example is the US automotive industry which, after pioneering mass production of cars, got set in its ways and lost the initiative in innovation to Germany and Japan. There is a lot of inertia in American industry (and business generally) because of its size, which makes turning on a dime rather difficult.
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GH1618
Almost correct, the truly devastating impact on the American Political System and its "representative republic" is the failure of the respective parties selection of the presidential and vice-presidential candidates. This always affords the winning party with a strong left leaning or right leaning candidate -- pandering to the base and $$.
The selection, who in all likelihood, may represent less than 15% of the electorate... Therefore, it is a vote for or against an ideology and not an election based on what is truly in each of the individuals' best interest. If you notice both the Democratic and Republican party are losing voters and the largest block will soon be "Independents" -- who tend to be right of center.
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I would have to assume it would be the same for anyone reading an opinion piece of their country written by an outsider but, as some of the comments from people claiming to be Americans were by far more ignorant I thought I’d add an American’s comments.
I am an American who reads the news specifically looking for information for other parts of the world. My President represents my country but, I have always believed that individual citizens are a better measure of a country then the Leaders. I am part of We The People, neither Obama nor Bush accurately reflects the America people, they are both simply one of many and each represent one of many types of American. Obama or Bush are no more representative of America as a country then Tony Blair was of Britain or Osama Bin Laden was if Saudi Arabia. They are simply men within the country whom others had selected to lead the country from the very small pool of choices We The People have (are allowed in Modern time).
E pluribus Unum: Best describes America. We are one Country made of many peoples who bonded together around core beliefs. Many have come over the last 250 years and most have embraced those ideals and become American both enriching and altering America. This is a country always evolving, sadly many people take such a short sighted, simple view and would judge America by the one administration or another when to be intellectually honest we are what we have always been, a young country by comparison to many in the world never perfect but always growing and changing and never sitting still.
America is NOT what you see on TV or in movies,
America is NOT what you hear from our Media, Music, or the speeches of our Leaders.
America is NOT even the politics and policies that are such sport to mock, complain about and or curse.
America more then anything else is a collection of Ideas that We The People, for over 250 years, have come to hold dear and see this land as the place to come for the chance to live to those ideas. America is probably just a dream but it is a good and decent dream that many viewed and still view with pride. Many people have come to America from across the world and many people still come, try to come and dream of coming to America.
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185. GH1618
I believe you don't know your own political system as well as you think you do. You do not elect one congressman, you elect at least two. Your district gets a representative in the House of Representatives and then you get to elect one of two Senators for your state.
Your comment is very well true. I'm sure many people blame other Congressmen for problems in government, though my comment still holds true as well. In Connecticut, where I currently reside, there is much discourse over the state's current Senators, both often accused of not fulfilling the promises they once made. If the people of whatever district of whatever state you're in are happy with your congressmen then you are properly represented and I congratulate you, but I assure you, your situation does not hold true for all Americans.
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179. At 9:18pm on 26 Oct 2009, RScWilson wrote:
Here, Here!! believe 1/2 of what you read, then go visit the people and places being talked about. Come on over and visit!
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Mick412 (#188) "If you notice both the Democratic and Republican party are losing voters and the largest block will soon be "Independents" -- who tend to be right of center."
It has been generally known for some time that unaffiliated voters are increasing in share of the electorate, but I don't know as I would agree that independents are "right of center." Independents (if truly so) are by definition hard to categorize. I'm sure that neither the right or left would count me (an unaffiliated voter) as being on their side of center.
Here is a thoughtful piece on the independent voter from the Rapid City Journal.
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113. At 5:31pm on 26 Oct 2009, SinShiva wrote:
“I'd love to see our government take some of our military and use them to clean up cities, get rid of gangs and the like.”
Good grief! This idea is un-American and also unconstitutional. The federal government is, like the Roman Republic was [south of the Rubicon], forbidden to use the armed forces internally. The national guard has been used in the past because it is supposedly a state organization not a national one.
184. At 9:46pm on 26 Oct 2009, brokenground wrote TO
@22 dceilar: “…In fact this conflating of Britain and it's Empire (a very short period of the British Isle's history) is perhaps part of this residual superpower conceit I refer to…”
Well if you use a more historically realistic “English Empire” instead of “British Empire” you might start with the Angevin Empire, and from that get to the British Empire that the American colonists were encouraged [at gunpoint] not to leave, and finally, of course to the “short period” during which the “Empire” included India.
There is also an opinion that the “British Empire” is alive and well in its officially republican heir and successor, n’cest pas?
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GH1618 -- You are correct about the Legislative branch -- I should have clarified that my focus was upon the Executive branch. Which is the symbol / image around the world.
p.s. -- i'm an Ex Pat, it's not my system of government -- I just live in Los Angeles, and like Connecticut, California too, has been privileged with unfulfilled expectations by its representatives and senators.
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RScWilson (#190) "I believe you don't know your own political system as well as you think you do. ... "
I beg your pardon. I know all about Senators. The term "congressman" refers to a member of the House of Representatives, to which I was referring. We also, of course, elect two senators from our own state.
One of our senators (Feinstein) is so popular in her home state that she didn't bother to campaign in the last election. She is currently leading the race to become the next governor without having even announced for the office. That doesn't mean that Californians love the Senate, just one of our senators.
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I have been gravely insulted by
188. At 10:05pm on 26 Oct 2009, Mick412 wrote:
GH1618
“Almost correct, the truly devastating impact on the American Political System and its "representative republic" is the failure of the respective parties selection of the presidential and vice-presidential candidates. This always affords the winning party with a strong left leaning or right leaning candidate -- pandering to the base and $$.
The selection, who in all likelihood, may represent less than 15% of the electorate... Therefore, it is a vote for or against an ideology and not an election based on what is truly in each of the individuals' best interest. If you notice both the Democratic and Republican party are losing voters and the largest block will soon be "Independents" -- who tend to be right of center.”
I am left of center on most issues [as we Americans see it], thank you very much. But who defines the center, the left, the right?
190. At 10:29pm on 26 Oct 2009, RScWilson wrote:
185. GH1618
“I believe you don't know your own political system as well as you think you do. You do not elect one congressman, you elect at least two. Your district gets a representative in the House of Representatives and then you get to elect one of two Senators for your state.”
And you do not know it very well either. Alaska has only 1 representative because the number depends on population, whereas every state has 2 senators regardless of population. It depends, as well, on whether reps are elected at large [whole state] or in a single district.
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I was reading some things here with great amusement, but I noticed some of the comments by ElliottCB and others, and simply had to leave a comment to correct what I see as counter-factual or inaccurate information. For the record, I grew up in Connecticut (the northeastern U.S., part of New England), and now live in Phoenix, Arizona (which is considered part of the desert Southwest).
First, diversity. An outsider will likely perceive America as being culturally homogeneous. This is the disservice done to us by the popular media. What you have to remember is that American media is a product, not necessarily reflective of reality, and our "news" is just another such product. Our newscasters have their regional accents white-washed out of existence, replaced by a fictitious accent meant to sound like some non-existent rural enclave just outside Chicago. The purpose is many-fold; talking heads can be shuffled around to different regional news bureaus, television or radio stations, of course, but the fake accent is considered "neutral" and therefore inoffensive.
In dozens of little ways, regional flavor is systematically removed from all forms of popular culture. For example, I was dismayed how a television show supposedly set in Phoenix has props indicating that this city is set in a fictitious county of "Mariposa." Mariposa, by the way, is Spanish for butterfly; the real county is named Maricopa. The homes and lifestyles shown could easily belong to people in Los Angeles. (There's a Mariposa county in California, by the way.) Some of us would call this the gross Californication of American culture, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. The rest of the world sees America through a Californian lens, after all.
Regional accents are not the only linguistic hallmark of America. There are completely different idioms that are in use in different regions, and if you're not from there, an unfamiliar idiom will likely make no sense to you. The deep South is an extreme example of this -- remember the song "Losing my Religion?" That phrase comes from the South (the band REM is from Athens, Georga), and it basically means you are becoming impatient. My ex-wife taught me quite a few from north Florida and rural Alabama, most of which are either a little too colorful to put here, or which I would do a horrible job of transcribing due to time and memory constraints. (It's been a long time, and my memory isn't so great anymore.) But she would often say things like, "He's just et up with it." (Translation: "He is full of himself.")
Most regional differences are indeed cultural. You would not walk up to a home in New England and knock on the door if you were previously unannounced. I distinctly recall how chilly a reception a stranger would get, even in my hometown. In some New England states, such as Vermont or Maine, that chilly reception might include a shotgun -- an uncle in New Hampshire or Maine (sorry, I was very young at the time) taught me how to reload shotgun shells, and one of the preferred media to load was rock salt. Why rock salt? To ward off "trespassers," and give them a less-than-lethal send-off which will remind them for some time afterward of their transgression.
The Midwest is considerably more friendly overall. The South is friendly, but the social order is different there, and if you're not from there you will be reminded of that. The Southwest is still very much in the "Wild West" phase, hence why Arizona and New Mexico have such permissive gun laws. You'll notice, though, that these states emphasize openly carrying sidearms; Arizona requires a concealed carry permit, which requires taking classes, whereas New Mexico does not allow concealed carry whatsoever. Some of these differences in gun laws fall to differences in local temperament; consider Massachusetts, which has gone about as far as it can to make it near-impossible for private citizens to purchase guns of any kind.
The music scenes are, of course, very different. Each region mingled the influences of different cultures, so Dixieland Jazz (as you might hear in New Orleans) has heavy African influences, whereas Southern Rock has obvious Country influences, and much of the Southwest scene is heavily infused with Latin and Native American sounds. Then there are the new experimental sounds, including Hopi reggae and Navajo jazz (just to pick two examples from Arizona, which I'm somewhat familiar with).
I was amused that some of the commenters here decried the homogeneity of American culture, after having admitted to only "traveling about" the U.S. Sorry to say, you can't really get a good understanding of American culture without having lived here for a couple decades, minimum -- and even then, you would need to move around a bit to be exposed to some things you otherwise wouldn't.
To quote ElliottCB: "I think you will find that food was invented by the French, 'base ball', or 'rounders', has been known to the British since at least the sixteenth century, music goes back to African drumming and the Lesbian 7-stringed lute, and the integrated circuit was invented by a Japanese calculator manufacturer. I might add the Internet to your list, which was invented by Al Gore while working at CERN in Geneva."
Actually, food wasn't invented by anyone. If by "food" you mean sustenance, that's been around since before there were humans on the planet. (If you mean haute cuisine, then by all means, laud the French! But I am told by some food historian friends that there were periods where English cuisine was considered the envy of the world.)
The integrated circuit's invention is credited to Jack Kilby of Texas Instruments and Robert Noyce of Fairchild Semiconductor. Sorry, not any Japanese calculator company, though maybe you were shooting for tongue-in-cheek. Then again, maybe you really believe what you wrote...
Nobody said America invented music, but we certainly originated several forms of music. The synthesis or syncretism of different musical forms is where this stuff comes from, mainly, so while some of the specific origin forms might hail from Africa or Europe, the product is uniquely American. Same thing for baseball -- it might have originated from rounders, but modern baseball isn't rounders.
And for the record, nobody seriously claims that Al Gore invented the Internet. Even he acts either amused or annoyed by the claim. What Gore did was vote in favor of legislation that funded ARPANET, which is the precursor of the modern Internet. I mean, seriously, I'd expect this kind of nonsense from a political opponent of Gore (or Gore's party).
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176. At 8:52pm on 26 Oct 2009, RickMcDaniel wrote:
...and believe that everything in life should be "fun"...Americans are pretty much the same as people in most other countries, except a little more spoiled, by lots of goods, and foolish notions about fun.
You have something against fun? I'm guessing you aren't having as much fun as you should, Rick. Or is it that you're just a tad jealous, because Americans always seem like they are having more fun than anyone else? Don't feel bad, I've heard that complaint a lot. But being "fun" is one of our most attractive and endearing qualities, according to most studies done on why people like Americans.
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ref 197 LionMageAZ
I loved your post and have only one quibble.
"...regional accents white-washed out of existence, replaced by a fictitious accent meant to sound like some non-existent rural enclave just outside Chicago."
As a native New Yorker living in Chicago for the past 15 years I've noticed most of my native Chicagoan neighbors sounding just like your fictitious accent. But the hard consonants and plains flat vowels are indeed, the trademark of newscasters nationwide.
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Proof that America is too immature to be an effective & reliable leader for the global community:
1. The Bedlam that is Cybersmut. Americans' all-but-omnipresent obsession with sex has resulted in compulsive, irrational behaviour spilling over into such unacceptable arenas as the recently exposed (although evidently quite well-established) extreme coercive lewdness displayed towards employees of US Defence Department subcontractors, for example those based as guards in Kabul that were finally dragged into the light of day by intrepid American journalists.
Addiction to pornography no longer even earns a raised eyebrow. Means for delivering pornography proliferate wildly, reaching deeply into communities that previously could fend off infestations of smut-merchants.
Just like a narcissistic adolescent, the American public objects to any suggestion that there is something fundamentally wrong about such a high degree of acceptance of obscene content that demeans and degrades participants, notably but not exclusively women & girls, as playthings of aggressive, single-minded sexual deviants.
The term "deviants" applies because what is "deviant" or "perverse" about this behaviour is the utter lack of any emotional attachment, tenderness or concern for the recipient of the sexually aggressive behaviour. The dominant party is glorified; the submissive party is essentially a disposable receptacle.
Under the direct effect of the pornography industry (which has extended its reach into the mainstream 'entertainment' industry as well), an alarming proportion of Americans aged 40 and under have only the vaguest idea of how to form and maintain healthy, balanced, adult personal relationships; they have never advanced beyond the mechanics of "doing it" to an actual comprehension of the psycho-emotional landscape of sexual intimacy; they persist in failing to effectively prevent the spread of sexually transmitted infections, as well as high-risk conceptions or conceptions by juveniles. Large numbers of Americans enter into "committed" relationships of various kinds without fully understanding what these entail, how to choose partners, how to define & design the union, or why they should & should not do so: this is demonstrated by the high rate of divorce & relationship failure, as well as by the over-reliance on various kinds of therapy for relationship issues -- and the large number of depressed or borderline-functional offspring of these kinds of half-baked associations.
2. The tradition upheld by just about anyone who can afford it of bestowing a personal automobile on every child who turns 16 -- just so they can drive themselves to school, the mall, or the party down the street.
The weakness, inefficiency, cost problems, safety problems and huge gaps in American public transport systems falls into this category as well.
3. Far too many Americans believe the Second Amendment entitles them not merely to own a gun, or a hunting rifle or two, but in fact to amass huge personal arsenals "just in case."
"Just in case" what? This kind of thinking is characteristic of immature, pathologically insecure young males, rather than intelligent adults.
4. A high level of tolerance for deceit, lying, cheating, and fakery of all kinds. Anything goes so long as one doesn't "get caught." The concept of consequences is tenuous at best. "Everyone does it" is the usual excuse.
5. A serious lack of interest and motivation in Education. The preference for any number of "new theories" to replace the slow, laborious, painful -- and proven -- method of Teaching and Learning that involves Work, Time investment, Effort, Practice & Repetition, Focused Reading or Attention to Detail.
6. An increasingly pronounced discomfort with doing work for sustained periods of time that do not involve eating, drinking or listening to music and/or chatting to friends.
7. An almost genetically programmed (by now) dislike for careful, deliberate thought at the highest levels of responsibility. "Accountability? What's that?"
8. Resistance to the concept that one's language needs to be mastered, treated with respect (instead of mangled and peppered with curses) and used correctly to mean what is being said.
9. An inability to accurately price, value or present one's work product for what it is really worth. The expectation of enormous rewards to be reaped quickly, almost instantaneously even, in exchange for minimal outlay or effort.
10. The determination to impose upon all other members of the household present (meaning the global community) one's own tastes-of-the-moment in music, fashion, food, friends, attitudes, games and routines. This is possibly the most quintessentially adolescent of all American traits (i would qualify that further as "characteristic specifically of 13-15 year old boy adolescents, as opposed to girls who tend to be a tiny bit more mature and at least occasionally help around the house!)
11. A lingering hope that Santa Claus exists; that Mum & Dad will show up in the nick-of-time, indulgent and omnipotent as usual, and that all will be well in the end. This is the one trait that i still find a little bit endearing -- this is not an "evil" adolescent, but it is a bit of a spoiled brat and no one should be seating him in the captain's chair, least of all during times of crisis.
13. Lazy, procrastinating and ultimately dumb resistance to the idea that Habits Must Change Before Oxygen Runs Out. (NB: The porn industry is one that could be excised from the planet with no one even noticing its absence... All that would happen is people would re-learn how to be intimate with real human beings instead: the kind that have actual expectations from a partner, and are not to be toyed with!)
14. Belief in personal invincibility, immortality, uniqueness and "exceptionalism." Reluctance to embrace the lessons of History. Dread of aging. Paralysing fear of being "unattractive", ergo "unpopular." Obsession with popularity, popularity contests, winning all the time -- at all costs. Focus on externals. Tendency to pitch a fit (throw a tantrum) when stood up to. Requirement that "fun" always be provided -- preferably by others, and at someone else's expense.
15. The Global Financial Crisis of the 21st century, brought to you by The Masters of the Universe as choreographed by America's highly over-rated, albeit glib & pompous Financial Wizards...
Enough said?
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Someone just sent me this video and I've come to realize that maybe Rick McDaniel (ref 176) is right. Maybe we Americans are having too much fun.
Nah!
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Pot kettle, Maria. From the Times Online Vanessa George and Angela Allen abused toddlers for Facebook 'friend' they never met. Everything you stated could just as easily be applied to Britain. Though I'd replace knives with guns and lower the drinking age to a shocking and very immature 16 yrs!
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"1-15 - Enough said?"
You left out number 16: "In spite of all the above, there are very few on the planet, of any nation, who wouldn't really rather live in America, because as Warren Buffett said, to be born in America is to win the birth lottery."
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203. Qb2
First, I'm wondering is what happened to No.12.
Second, unlike the very insightful Mr. Buffet, a lot of people who have won that lottery have not the faintest idea how lucky they are. It's that entitlement thing all over again.
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Re: "maria-ashot"
Lighten up - you take yourself waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously.
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Congratulations Mr. Mardell,
I recognize my country in a good many of these posts, especially those that are contradictory. America and Americans are full of contradictions and always have been. Loyal British subjects who arrest their royal governors and go into rebellion over the rights of Englishmen, people who self-righteously demand freedom of religion while denying equal freedom to others, slave owners declaring "...all men are created equal..." and so on.
What many fail to realize is that the high ideals came first and we have been playing catch up ever since. Some of this is coming out here. All men are created equal [corollary, all men can aspire to the presidency], and after a couple of centuries we elected Barack Obama. So we haven’t yet attained the “perfect union” we just keep on trying. As another famous American said, “We shall overcome…some day.” Thanks for the stimulating post, keep up the good work.
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Interestedforeigner said: "Second, unlike the very insightful Mr. Buffet, a lot of people who have won that lottery have not the faintest idea how lucky they are. It's that entitlement thing all over again."
My point is that Americans are just people. It isn't necessary, or even desirable, for us to try to live up to your standards; wherever you may be.
To most Brits I'd say look to your own before you look beyond yourselves with criticisms. You probably feel like things are just fine, but from where I sit, you have an endemic poverty mindset that you don't dare face. Not only do you provide "councel houses" for the poor, but you import more poor, as quickly as you can, to fill houses not yet built. Your farms only supply 70% of what you eat. You don't take your place in the world by fighting against the threat of militant Islam with any degree of seriousness - why? - from an outsider's view it's because you have so many Muslims that you don't dare offend them. Your educational system is in an even worse state of disrepair than ours, in America.
To this American's eyes, Britain is a country that is lost in apology to the nations that it subjugated during its colonial period. You've lost your self-respect, and you court the poor and ethnic to try to get it back. But, as we learned here in the US, an ever mounting population of entitled non-working poor is unsustainable. I wish you luck, but carping about what you perceive is wrong in America doesn't take even the first step of addressing what's wrong in your own garden.
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200 Maria.
Last week I found myself in the unaccustomed position of defending the government of Israel.
Now I find my rock-ribbed presbyterian self defending pornography. Well, life is full of bizarre twists and ironies, to be sure.
Look, if you don't like pornography, turn off the TV, throw out the magazine, close the book, look the other way. What you consider "pornography" may not in any way offend the majority of your fellow citizens.
Because of the indefiniteness of what constitutes "pornography", the courts have moved to an assessment based on community standards of morality, of what is or isn't acceptable behaviour. No matter how much people may make fun of this, I stand witness that in my lifetime this approach has led to significant improvements in our society and in our approach to law enforcement. I don't want to go back to the sexual repression and hypocrisy of the society depicted in "Peyton Place".
Rather than try to define the undefinable and outlaw "smut", the focus is now on identifying harm, and taking steps to counter that harm. Thus we focus on abusive or manipulative conduct, conduct that is degrading, conduct where there cannot be informed adult consent, conduct that is violent, conduct that is exploitative or coercive, and so on.
With respect, aiming law enforcement at identifiable harm is a far more logical approach than previous attempts at sexual repression through the singularly inappropriate vehicle of the criminal law. Much of the former law enforcement by the "vice" squad in respect of human sexuality was grossly unjust, and led to far more harm than good. It was an enormous waste of public resources, it was an incitement to corruption of the police, it was a huge subsidy and source of wealth to organized crime. Is the world really a better place because Oscar Wilde was jailed for being homosexual?
We live in a world where adolescents are constantly being de-sensitized to violence. How many murders or beatings have you actually seen or been involved in during your lifetime? Now compare that to the number of violent incidents on prime time television per hour. Don't even get me started on video games.
By contrast, how many times does the average person make love? Yet it is acceptable to show any number of gruesome murders on TV, any number of shootings, but not to show an undressed woman (or man)on TV, because, heaven forbid, that would lead to the moral ruination of society.
Well, I would much rather watch (and, I would much rather my children watch, frankly) what you refer to as pornography than the constant diet of guns, explosions, violence and killings that masquerades as "drama" on TV. I have a fair idea which one is doing more damage to our society.
On your points on education and hard work, you are on firmer ground, in my view at least.
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Whatever...
But yes, now I AGREE, Mr. Mardell needs to get away from the "behind-licking" type people of DC. Most are of course not conformist type people there.
At least, the appearance(s) of controversial opinion(s) is/are less likely there.
Mark should travel to Kansas City, New Orleans, Denver, Oakland/San Francisco and Seattle and stay awhile in each city... people are stranger than he might think... here in America (luckily).
Also, he should go South. I went to Mississippi ..once... with an African American friend And it was a Revelation--truly it IS segregated and ..different in culture from much of America.
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USA, Please do not grow up and get set in your ways!!
You are the most caring & charitable society on Earth!!
Believe it or not! Because you find the good in other people and want to help out other people. Just this month my daughter's 5th grade class raised $782 to buy 2 water buffalos and three goats for a tribe in Africa! As Alistair Cooke and Justin Webb discovered, we really do care! Once you look past the media and government rhetoric, you see the heart and soul that lends you the shirt off our back and even our sons to help out if necessary. What Earthly Good would America be if she wasn't the way she is? Yes we frustrate those who wish we would see things their way. I guess you can have an equally powered America, lamenting at the pub with you about the power of China.
As Billy Joel sings "Don't go Changin'..."
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#79. T1m0thy: "One of the group said he would never buy a US built car. When asked why he replied 'because they catch fire too easily'. His reasoning was that every time he saw a crash in Hollywood movie or TV series the car caught fire therefore American cars must be a fire hazard."
It's just as likely that the vehicle was made in Japan or Europe - perhaps your friend is not very observant?
#133. jeffzekas: "My best friend is black and anglo"
Black and English no doubt, but never Black and Anglo!
#200. maria-ashot: "Enough said?"
More than enough. You make Mary Whitehouse seem benign.
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Yes, we have problems in America just as European nations have, but to call us adolescent is the same as calling yourselves stuffy and old. It feels an awful lot like a finger wagging exercise before a parental lecture.
However, if I had to chose, I'd rather the US not "mature" in the manner that many on this blog long for. I rather like our national ideals and myths because they keep the country together in the face of wild political discourse that is characteristic of America. And if that sets us back a few years, then so be it. Our nation survived for the most part of 200 years as the underdog and yet we succeeded when most, especially those in Europe, believed and hoped, for various reasons, that we would collapse and fail.
The US is not about kings and queens, dominions, colonies, and empires of the past and present. We don’t try to subvert and annex the world. We’ll do business, but for the most part, we'd rather be left alone to our own devices so that we wouldn't have to worry about policing the world for an incompetent UN. Those that attack and kill us or others because they associate with us are not attacking imperialist aggressors; they are the aggressors and the friends of aggressors who have purposely brought and wrought death and destruction on the innocent to twist and distort and deceive. It is they who should be condemn by history and world opinion just as Hitler was in the previous century.
America is an idea, a living mythology based in the utopianism of early western liberalism and witnessed in acts and words of individual patriotism and entrepreneurism. It is naturally a schizophrenic society of Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian ideals, but it suits us. We, as a free society, continue to carry the weight of liberty even when we stumble because our national mythos tells us that it is forever our burden. And we ask only that those who wish to join our nation individually take on that burden, so that we may someday reach the unreachable. It is a lofty, somewhat naive goal for an adolescent 300 year old nation, but I would rather that than the empty political and social "maturity" that would require America to dispel and forget many of these ideals enshrined in the Constitution. Without them, we are lost; a nation with a meaningless flag.
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# 42, 50, 61, 72, 85, 87: I enjoyed all your posts and agree with much that you said.
In this reply I'll try to avoid the adolescent traits of 'knowing it all' and meeting instruction with defensiveness... We could do better about those as a nation, too, and we need to temper the expectations of instant gratification that feed our consumerism and debt.
But we shouldn't lose some other youthful traits, here are a few that serve us well:
improvisation - I think the secret of American music, mentioned by some as our great export for generations, and to innovation and invention, is improvisation, a blend of proficient skill or knowledge with the freeing imagination and optimism of youth.
concentration - if the intense focus of play can be brought to our growth as much as to our hobbies, we can imitate the likes of Abe Lincoln's fireside reading self-education or George Washington's cultivation of extraordinary restraint and probity.
fairness - kids have high expectations of a level playing field and don't abide cheaters. This childhood trait is wiser than the jaded acceptance that replaces idealism in some. It's why most of us are law-abiding and tax-paying, and why we respect the fruits of effort more than privilege...
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207 quake boy
"To most Brits I'd say look to your own before you look beyond yourselves with criticisms. ......from an outsider's view it's because you have so many Muslims that you don't dare offend them. Your educational system is in an even worse state of disrepair than ours, in America.
To this American's eyes, Britain is a country that is lost in apology to the nations that it subjugated during its colonial period. You've lost your self-respect, and you court the poor and ethnic to try to get it back. ........ I wish you luck, but carping about what you perceive is wrong in America doesn't take even the first step of addressing what's wrong in your own garden."
Much of what you say may well be true, and your opinion is as valid as anyone's, but this BBC blog is about AMERICA, and therefore you cannot discount the opinions of British contributors with a "look to your own problems first" attitude.
America is a global power and her actions have effect around the globe, often due to the spin put on those actions by manipulators looking to promote a negative image of the USA.
On this blog, although there are a few real "antis", most of the comment from foreigners is benign and meant to draw attention to the things about America that could be made better, and in no way simply "diss" the USA. Most of us foreigners wouldn't be here if we didn't care about the US and wish it well. I travel often in the US, have worked there (legally) and have many many friends across the whole country, from relatives in alaska, to friends in San Francisco, Springfield (Ill) and New York .... so I feel my comments can have weight, despite the problems in Britain.
You are perhaps a tad too sensitive, and unable or unwilling to take a good hard look at your country and see it's bad as well as its good, irrespective of party politics. This is what is meant by immature.
P.S. If you wish to see how self-critical the British can be look at Mark Easton's UK blog and you will see that if anything the British are harder on themselves than on others.
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Grow up into what-a cynical, socialist, Godless Europe?
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Kurth's thesis is nonsense. Like many other academics of his political stripe, he is compelled to demonstrate, repeatedly and in public, that he is in fact a manly man, and not merely a fey university lecturer (the best example of this is Harvard Prof Harvey Mansfield's book which, I kid you not, is titled "Manliness.") Anyway, the fact is that the reason America has long been respected and admired around the world is that for most of the twentieth century it was one of the few countries that provided ample opportunities for its people, including its newest immigrants, to better their lives economically as well as educationally. Moreover, throughout the twentieth century the US expanded political and civil rights for women, blacks and other minorities and also, on occasion and with great effect, stood up for human rights around the world (most notably in the years following WWII and towards the end of the soviet era). To the extent that America's reputation has suffered in recent years, this is entirely the fault of lousy political leadership that promoted a foreign policy (invading Iraq) that was, without a doubt, completely insane. Those who really need to "grow up" are the so-called intellectuals who support a state of permanent war against people they don't understand, who live in places they've never been, and speak languages they never studied...
(signed, a yank in asia)
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ref #212More than enough. You make Mary Whitehouse seem benign.
_______________--
A name I have not heard referenced to since the 80s
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# 183 T1m0thy wrote:
"Oh and Philly_Mom what is a Basque Bar Mitzvah please?"
Presumably it's Jewish Rite of Passage ceremony, where the ladies don exotic underwear...
;-)
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# 203 Quakeboy02 wrote:
"In spite of all the above, there are very few on the planet, of any nation, who wouldn't really rather live in America, because as Warren Buffett said, to be born in America is to win the birth lottery."
Really? Granted, those in countries which are poorer than the US and/or aren't democratic may want to live there. But are all the occupants of western Europe, Japan, Australia, or indeed Canada, queuing up to try to get into the US? Because that's a bit more than 'very few'. [Indeed there seem to be rather large nos of people who want to emigrate to those areas.]
And if Mr Buffett did say that, I assume he was merely adapting a similar statement some time in the 19th century - something like being born British was to win first place in the lottery of life.
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After reading all the comments here, I finally got around to reading the piece by James Kurth that inspired Mark's posting. I thought it was interesting and quite well argued. It's argument was certainly a bit more specific than 'America is an adolescent that needs to grow up'.
And, as some people here appear not to have realised, Mr Kurth is a right wing American, so any criticism by him of the US is hardly 'typical foreigners bashing America'.
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" 96. At 4:32pm on 26 Oct 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #93
There is a fault in the BBC board I have checked posts I have done and spelling has been changed."
LOL gherkin. Even I doubt that and as U know I have no love for the mods.
However in your defence I would have a word with the grammer trolls.
Gherky is american And I am a britican.
Speeling is'nnt all dat important.
to concentrate on spelling is a typical bull.
gherky makes enough ridiculous comments, enough to fill books. so leave off the way he says it and concentrate on what he says.
Again ,it may be a total pile of fertiliser.
But that is not the point.
Or do you just use better spelling and manners to try to claim your side of an argument?
Even if you are wrong?
(which most of the time gherky is).
so grammar troll,if you like but it proves nothing about anything to do with reasoning.
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Someone mentions "more intelligentsia crap"
That is what I see in the case of the business owner in new mexico that is making his staff change their name to an anglicised name, and only speak English in his presence( worried the staff are calling him bad names probably).
ANy claim that this is not racist is really trying to put some academic debate into what is a simple call.
The guys a racist.
but in the states he is argued as not being racist.
Because americans can all have it their terrible two way whatever way that is.
If little brat wants to say separating races out and defining people by the religion is not bigoted then that is another example of the spoilt little terrible two year old, getting their way again.
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Most of the world see's American Culure in three ways, Upper north east coast mentality (who try to appear liberal and educated to the sense that they think they are transplanted Europeans and as such take the attitude that the rest of the country are backward peasants). The rest of the country with the exeception of California (are conservative bible thumpers, that are shocked by the attitudes of "New" morality displayed in Europe, the East Coast and California). And California (who think they are so progressive that they have passed the toughest pollution standards in the world in spite of the fact that the entire state is on fire for six months out of the year). Well for the most part we don't like what the others do or say, but regardless of who temporarily wins the floor we dont go to war over it. Now you Europeans have had 50 years of relative peace, a fleeting bit of time in a long history of conflicts. Maybe you have finally learned to live together and maybe it will all end tomorrow for some dumb reason that will set Europe on fire again. Whatever, My point is this....You have not right to lecture about "Adolescent America needing to grow up". If your so grown up, we would be looking to you for leadership, when all we see is babbling!
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ref #200
Too much said and most of your points are not specific to America but reflect many nations around the world.
it is a myth that most 16 year olds get a car. I lived in a wealthy suburb and even there it was a minority. If we were lucky we got to borrow the car.
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105 johne heart.
could spend loads of time picking that pathetic 105 post out.
from lack of reality to your crazy assumptioons. but seeing as you are a fresh poster and sound just like some of the other thickos we see here regularly I suspect a troll.
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John what the writer of the article is up to the usual ,now we are out of pwer lets bash the country.during our time bashers were unpatriotic.
The moron should have been at it for the last 50 years, but he just noticed.
Well it's obama's watch so america can be derided by good clean living patriots.
It is not like the old days where there was a nice white guy in power. A guy with republican leanings
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219.john-In-Dublin wrote:
"# 183 T1m0thy wrote:
Oh and Philly_Mom what is a Basque Bar Mitzvah please?
Presumably it's Jewish Rite of Passage ceremony, where the ladies don exotic underwear..."
Sounds great.... but does this means that the Basque Seperatists wish to seperate these women from their exotic underwear .... ooooh Rabbi, stop it!
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I'm an American from Chicago who's spent some time all over Western Europe. I have to agree with other comments that the European view of American's seems largely based on American pop culture, which is largely ignored by most adult Americans. I'm sure European adults have no interest in these things either, but they are inevitably exposed to it, and would understandably draw conclusions about our society from them.
As for the American economy falling behind, a large part of the blame should be directed towards Wall Steet. Many of our smartest young people that used to become doctors and scientists are now going to Wall Street b/c that's where the money is. They've managed to invent imaginary economic rules that, w/ rising American consumerism, helped create the current economic situation; instead of tangible inventions of worldwide use in science and medicine.
Do young American need to grow up? Yes... in that we need to focus on the things that are important to society, such as personal health and innovation, and less on accumulation of things we think we need.
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116 "that American should become like much of European society has become: cynical and lacking in confidence in its own roots."
what a country that has refused to give health care because they can't trust their own democratically elected officials. in a country that will go to others and Invade them if they do not have a deep held belief in the freedom of democracy.
the cold war was fought suposedly over the concept of democratically electing leaders.
"we want all to be democratic" then we refuse to vote because " well what's the difference"
refuse to believe in our own elected officials.
A nation based on making people more "equal" and the state to care for the "welfare" of their people can't get a national health system of any sort going because they can't be trusted those people in the government.
Or even more in defiance of it's own roots. they sometime argue that "there is no constitutional call for helping others"
But you would say" should become like much of European society has become: cynical and lacking in confidence in its own roots"
Pathetic
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225 gherky
no you are right. some get a car at 15
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I too have sympathy for mk. The mods pick on me as well, changing my brilliantly written posts so that they appear here as a load of carp.
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To our interestedforeigner (No. 208):
Being a huge believer in freedom of speech, for many, many decades i have turned my eyes away from the pornography phenomenon as essentially some kind of marginal rubbish that has "always been around" in some shape or form.
Well, in Pompeii they had to hire someone to make the paintings on the walls, or the exaggerated sculptures. And for centuries even a Hogarth or a Turner would produce erotic and even unapologetically pornographic drawings -- many of them exquisitely precise -- so that the kinds of people who have a need to look at images of cavorting others could possess something they could refer to at will.
Then we had the advent of photography and cinematography, taking things to a whole new level. And, of course, in the second half of the 20th century, we had those quintessentially American "miracles of marketing": Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler... and the degradation got worse and worse, even as the physical number of copies in print grew exponentially, to beyond stratospheric heights.
No. 202 tells me i am a "pot calling a kettle black": the "problem" is as bad in the UK.
No, it is not. Nor, i promise you, interestedforeigner, is it as benign as it is from where you are sitting.
What sets me apart from many of my interlocutors here -- and by no means am i trying to impress, believe me -- is that i do rub shoulders with a very broad spectrum of people in all kinds of interesting places, in a variety of languages & cultures, and i have taught, literally, from your angelic nursery school novice to your post-doc adult. Most of the communities i interact with, notably right here in the US (40+ years in California, 5 in Massachusetts and 3 in the NY area), are not your BBC-types. BBC people tend to have some connection to the power elites.
And what i am trying to say, by sounding the alarm about excess pornographic addiction & its consequences, to the power elites (of which i am by no means a member, although perhaps some of my friends count) is that this manifestation is no longer "benign"; it is no longer "marginal." Yes, it emanates from the US, which has taken it to "new heights" (much as the US does everything, good or bad); in the US we have had reports of even megafirms such as GM and GE getting into the porn industry via their subsidiaries, because it is soooo profitable -- evidently, pornbrains during the Bush-Cheney years (Cheney's specific proclivities, not to mention W's and Rove's are well known in SF and just about anyone can read about them if they care to actually read) have penetrated even the Pentagon policy institutes. (Yes, "don't ask, don't tell" works that way too, as a shield to protect from scrutiny any kind of conduct provided it is somewhat 'discreet.' From time to time, news seeps out of the Air Force Academy, for example; cases make the news... and then all is quiet again. Until the Kabul "hazing" incident kind of flashed across the public radar screens again: this is what our taxes pay for?)
in California, this morning, millions of us are still reeling from the Jaycee Dugard story -- an abducted child held as a sex slave "in plain sight" while a whole community, including law enforcement, watched & pretended not to see -- and today we have the latest: a brutal gang-rape of a fifteen year-old outside a high school dance in a city not more than 20 mins away from where i used to live, at an event with sufficient adult presence & monitoring... A rape that went on for more than TWO HOURS, involving perhaps six or seven men, some of whom were "fellow students" -- a rape that went on while people milled around, bystanders watched, neighbours heard about it -- until finally some one sane human being had the decency to notify the police.
What is the connection to porn? if you actually expose yourself, for a few minutes, to some of the horrible "amateur hour" pornographic content that is available free of charge (!) from almost any computer on the planet, you will see -- if you are an adult woman, as i am, and have the capacity to see this kind of thing from the perspective of a Woman, not the person operating the equipment, so to speak -- a virtually endless collection of often very young females who are being ABUSED. Not "made love to": ABUSED, exploited, attacked -- on camera -- often by "wholesome looking" young men, many of whom one could readily mistake for US military.
The problem with this content is that it inculcates a conviction in young males who have not read books or ever actually had a conversation with a woman that what is in fact Abuse, Sexual Assault, even outright Rape is "normal sex." The notion that a woman is howling her head off -- in pain -- contorted into the strangest poses no reasonable man would ever willingly undertake himself, "because she enjoys it and this is how it is done."
For decades, people have attempted to make the point that pornography encourages sexual violence, especially against women and girls. And the people who made that point were generally mocked as "prudes" or "fundamentalists" or "sexually uptight people." Well, i am none of the above.
i am a mother of a 25, 21 and 16 year old. All three attended US public schools. When the oldest two attended, pornographic content was not a pervasive phenomenon on campus. With the youngest, now 16, in an outstanding high school in a fairly clean-cut community, pornography is the content of choice, not just for most young lads, but also for many, many young lasses. They are learning "dating skills" from watching it. Refusing to participate exposes one to ostracism...
in the US today, more effort is being put into getting sodas out of high school cafeterias than into teaching young people to have respect for each other and for themselves -- to develop intimacy skills through careful, unhurried experience -- in PRiVATE.
What we are looking at is the likelihood of greater success with getting people to lose weight than to prevent sexually transmitted infections, not to mention emotional illness, mental illness -- and increasingly extreme acts of sexual aggression. And do not imagine that even rape in Africa or sex tourism in Asia or child brides in india and Africa do not have something to do with just how acceptable it has become to view a screaming, squirming victim of a sexual assault or a sexually exploitative event as "exactly what (s)he needs."
Not at all. Sexual pleasure does not involve pain. The pain response in the human organism is meant to function as an alarm. Anyone who pretends otherwise suffers from an illness.
Anyone who applies force against a person who is in the room under duress -- because of financial need, for example, or out of some kind of mental illness that suggests they need to "obey", or because they have been "trained" or "groomed" (as captives or women from marginalised communities often turn out to have been) -- is engaging in an assault, not in an actual sexual encounter.
True "consent" involves a completely free agent who is an adult, whose mind has not been influenced in some fashion whether by peer pressure - social programming - money - intoxicants -- and who has some knowledge of what they are about to participate in, and how it will impact their body & mind.
Consider also, as we contemplate an urgent need for reductions in overall carbon footprints, that pornography, like nail lacquer, hair colouring, tobacco, "recreational" drugs and plastic toy falls into an area of human activity that is entirely dispensible, with no actual harm done to anyone from their absence.
Finally, and this really goes right back to the heart of what Mr Kurth writes, and Mr Mardell raises as a topic for discussion: "This is what they do in America" has become a rallying cry for a much greater proportion of the human population than was ever the case 30 years ago.
Even though there were, of course, all kinds of phenomena that degraded & exploited women & girls (as well as some men & boys) in all the societies that were at least partially closed to American influence until the 1990s, pornography and smut as a whole were far less ubiquitous.
Now, with globalization, they are, indeed, everywhere: they are extreme, they are vile -- and they are completely "Americanized": meaning juvenile, primitive, coarse, unthinking...
Even the atrocities of Abu Ghraib and what is being tolerated from the illegitimate iranian regime in its torture of young people perceived to be "threats to the system" exist at an entirely different level of brutality -- and shock less -- as a direct result of the utterly unchallenged reign of sexually aggressive behaviour that specifically American culture sanctions, models and promotes.
All that talk about "God-loving Americans" is nothing but a smokescreen.
Whatever you have going on in the UK or EU absolutely Pales By Comparison.
it is a problem, it is in particularly a problem for the human rights of children & women; it is a problem because this is how those people you give so much power to in WDC & NYC actually spend their free time: this is what is on their brains.
it is a problem because even as i write it grows, virtually unchecked.
And it does say a great deal about what is wrong with America.
Remedies? Well, a whole lot of people are a great deal more concerned about file-sharing!
What are your priorities?
i can understand and would not be spending my time on this -- Filth, because that is what it is! -- if people were privately making on a 100% consensual basis, with no money changing hands and no brainwashing involved -- private videos for personal use within the confines of their own bedroom, safely out of the reach of juveniles, by Adults, involving Adults.
but this is not what we have here. We have a mushrooming industry -- now also a cottage industry -- of mentally unbalanced males (for the most part) promoting the idea that there is nothing better than sexual assault, PUBLiC sexual assault, in full view of others --and that women and girls exist primarily to provide gratification for people born with male sexual organs. That nothing is more important than male sexual organs, and their "glorification" & gratification in every possible way.
This is lunacy. it is Pompeii all over again, on a planet-wide scale, and it impacts now Billions of human lives.
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"In Connecticut, where I currently reside, there is much discourse over the state's current Senators, both often accused of not fulfilling the promises they once made. If the people of whatever district of whatever state you're in are happy with your congressmen then you are properly represented and I congratulate you, but I assure you, your situation does not hold true for all Americans." (from RScWilson at #190)
This remark is patronizing. RSW is in no position to "assure" me of anything. Connecticut is not all that much different than other states where Congress is concerned. They have five members of the House of Representatives. In 2008, four of them were reelected by the solid majorities of 71.6%, 65.7%, 77.5%, and 59.9%. In one district the incumbent was defeated in a close race. The district switched from Republican to Democratic in a Democratic year. In Connecticut, as everywhere else, voters tend to support their incumbent congressman.
The Senate seats for Connecticut are another matter. One of Connecticut's senators is Lieberman, who has been something of a rogue Democrat. When he was defeated in the Democratic primary, he ran in the general election as an independent, which he won handily with bipartisan support. No generalizations can reasonably be made from this case; independent and third-party members of Congress are an anomaly. The point I made applies to US politics generally: Senators tend to be reelected.
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229 cknight
"I have to agree with other comments that the European view of American's seems largely based on American pop culture, which is largely ignored by most adult Americans. I'm sure European adults have no interest in these things either, but they are inevitably exposed to it, and would understandably draw conclusions about our society from them."
This is undeniably true about many European people's perspective on the USA, just as it is equally true that many Americans' opinion of Europe is based on the few (more now, but in the past few) British TV shows, and for the rest of Europe often a 3rd generation memory of what life was like in the old country.
That said, many of the European contributors here have a good understanding of the US, have travelled expensively or worked there and are making heartfelt comment and critique, with the benefit of replies from actual Americans to help fill our knowledge gaps - that is the point of this blog IMHO.
Some contributors here label the European view as either "anti-American" or else simplistically state that we are naive victims of pop culture overload. This is nothing more than trying to avoid the issues of the day .... and not seeing our view that although much about the US is good and to be praised, and even adopted, there is also much that is wrong and should be critiqued.
In general (and it is a generalisation) I believe that Europeans are better informed about the US, on a deeper level than just pop culture, than Americans are about Europe. At least we can say that we ALL know who your president is - can you same the same for us?
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stereotypical little barbs from the status quo!
There has always been a resentment/jealousy of/for the USA dating back especially probably to WWII era the old tired "over paid, over sexed, over here" mantra - who exactly needs to grow up? its all so sophomoric.
Thank to those i.e. Gavrielle/St.Dom who, as usual, post fair, well written responses without malice & nastiness.
Mark M. really needs to get out more!
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I must say I'm quite bemused at the incredibly 'adolescent' reactions being posted on this blog. Nu-uh, you are! Especially since some of these, appear to lack the attention-span to actually read the article, and not just the title. It isn't a European professor saying these things, is it?
P.S. If certain contributors don't appreciate a European viewpoint, then why read a blog on the website of the British Broadcasting Corporation?
P.P.S. What is up with all the veiled threats & referencing in part of WWII and what-not? I'm willing to bet, nobody posting here fought in WWII, stop bringing it up.
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I like American pop culture, including the young. On the other hand our old fuddy duds in the banking, securities and insurance industries have been VERY 'irresponsible' and 'feckless'. I say CONTINUE to export and import pop and youth culture.
And as for those more mature...."Capricorn 15's. Born 2244. Enter the Carousel. This is the time of renewal. [Crowd applauds] P.A. System: Be strong and you will be renewed. Identify..."
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RomeStu (#235) "That said, many of the European contributors here have a good understanding of the US, have travelled expensively ... "
There are even more European visitors now that the strong Euro against the US Dollar has made it less expensive.
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237. At 4:28pm on 27 Oct 2009, Leo_Naphta wrote:
P.S. If certain contributors don't appreciate a European viewpoint, then why read a blog on the website of the British Broadcasting Corporation?
P.P.S. What is up with all the veiled threats & referencing in part of WWII and what-not? I'm willing to bet, nobody posting here fought in WWII, stop bringing it up.
________
Well, on the first point, it might be because you can't get a good summary of hard news on any of the US news services. But if you want to know about recent burglaries in Hollywood, well, the US news services have got that covered from eighteen viewpoints.
On the second point, Oh, how little you know. Just don't even go there. And for God's sake, don't raise anything to do with the middle east (and we're not talkin' Wilmington, Delaware, either).
We may not have fought the war, but by gum it has been re-fought it here over and over and over, often most vigorously by those with the least knowledge, too.
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Survey questions for all 200 plus folks who contributed to this blog: Did you read all Prof Kurth's article or just Mr Mardell's teaser? Have you read Prof Kurth's biography?
I infer, based upon a read of the comments, that for most, the answer is "no" to at least one question, maybe both. There seems to have been a lot of "mud-wrestling" over issues that respond to the teaser rather than Prof Kurth's recommendation to move away from diplomacy based upon ideology (and back) to a more pragmatic (read:mature) approach when dealing with other nations on the world stage. Kurth used the word "again" as somewhat of an indictment of the US approach of the past couple decades. While Kurth's opinions are up for debate, he is more than just an academic with an axe to grind, or an opinionated foreigner critical of the US...He's from the US and he's been "in the game" for some time.
Mr Mardell's teaser sure got the comments flowing, but I'm not sure that there were many regarding the substance of Kurth's thesis.
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Putting away childish things will be more easier said than done. I agree with James Kurth's comment on the American popular culture that is projected and I am grateful for Mr Mardell's comments on his observations of us close up. Yes, the projected culture is adolescent. But the problem is, it sells. When I have conversations with people outside of the United States about TV, movies, etc. I make it a point to apologize for that awful TV show, Dynasty, and I even pronounce it the British way to make the point.
Fluff, in the form of stupid TV, silly news or french fries, sells. Just today, on an American purported "news site" one of "Today's Highlights" are articles about celebrity tattoos. For this silliness to end one or both of two things has to happen: 1) American entertainment businesses figure out how to sell good stuff. 2) The demand outside of the United States for fluff ceases to exist. I'm not holding my breath.
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ref #237
I listen and watch the BBC for their reports outside the U.S. I find that their reports on the U.S are more one sided than most of the world.
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The US is not about kings and queens, dominions, colonies, and empires of the past and present. We don’t try to subvert and annex the world.
-----------------------------
Strange...that pretty much describes the last 10 years of US foreign policy.
I've spent a couple of years in the US (Boston) and I've found that the general public is so utterly divided in terms of personality, beliefs and political opinions that it's hard to pin down any kind of culture to them.
One thing I've noticed though about most Americans is that they have an extreme paranoia regarding their government. This is where I feel they need to grow up and stop acting like children.
Of course like any other government the US is not perfect and quite frankly it's foreign policy is often sickening. However the UK also bought into the same war in Iraq so I'm hardly in a position to criticise on that front, despite the cheap shot earlier.
The main quip I have is that any slightly socialist ideal is condemned as if it will drag the country into a communist state. The main topic at the moment being health care. Coming from Europe I just don't understand the wide spread opposition to universal health care. Many friends here have explained to me "You can't compare Europe to the US we have such a large population, variety of religion, immigrants etc" as if these things don't exist in Europe.
The way I see it here is that everyone seems programmed to simply reject anything socialist regardless of how useful it might actually be to their society. It is almost seen as unpatriotic and against what the forefathers taught. It seems to me that what I amdire about the US in in its ideas about patriotism and a solid foundation of a republic is hijacked and used against them by those in power (I don't mean the government but the rich) to convince them that it's ok that around 50million live below the poverty line.
For me Americans have their enemy all wrong. They think their government is their enemy when although not perfect it is nowhere near as twisted as the rich right wing. They are the ones who control the media and they are the ones who constantly take advantage of those less fortunate. If people would trust their government to run health care the country would take a huge step forward. The rich pharmaceutical companies are a prime example of screwing the public. Every TV commercial break is dominated by these disgusting ads. The fact that doctors are under pressure to pretty much sell certain company's drugs is sickening. The fact that people who pay their health insurance premiums are being denied coverage by companies who will do anything not to pay out is outrageous.
I do think that it's a good idea to be questionable of your government and at times I wish Europeans would do this more however it almost seems like many Americans would be happy to have no government since they don't seem to think they should interfere with anything.
On the subject of WWII: The US may have helped us win the war but they have charged us an arm and a leg for it since. We only finished paying back the debt a couple of years back. You make out like you were some missionaries helping us win a war and rebuild our countries. No, your treasury was running a tab the whole time and held the debt over us for nearly 60 years.
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#241 I tried reading the article and bio, truly I did, but it seemed so......boring and arrogant and nationalistic - much more fun to just address Mr. Mardell's blurb, then give a link to a great example of some international pop culture here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xjPODksI08
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#207 Quakeboy2
I tend to agree, but feel that the US should also deal with it's problems at home as well. The UK might not produce all it's own food but the US has to import nearly 80% of it's energy and pro rata Americans use something like 150% more energy per person per annum than Brits.
I actually don't think you need to grow up, but I think you do need to stop over consuming. All nations have problems and they should all try to sort them out.
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183 T1m0thy wrote:
Oh and Philly_Mom what is a Basque Bar Mitzvah please?
219.john-In-Dublin wrote:
Presumably it's Jewish Rite of Passage ceremony, where the ladies don exotic underwear..."
228. RomeStu wrote:
Sounds great.... but does this means that the Basque Seperatists wish to seperate these women from their exotic underwear .... ooooh Rabbi, stop it!
...............
Sorry to disappoint, gentlemen. Apparently, the Jewish members of Basque were subjected to ethnic cleansing some while ago. Therefore finding such a greeting card would be as rare as Armenian string-cheese in Istanbul.
Of course, since there are more Armenians in Los Angeles County than there are in Armenia - I would recommend North Pasadena for yummy string cheese.
BTW - I'm afraid that the Bar Mitzvah actually involves the young man demonstrating the use of his pointer -- but only in the biblical sense.
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#237 MagicKirin
"I listen and watch the BBC for their reports outside the U.S. I find that their reports on the U.S are more one sided than most of the world."
Magic what exactly does that mean. Does it mean
a, That the BBC's reports on the US are more one sided than their reports on other countries?
b. That reports on other countries media about the US are less one sided than those on the BBC?
Elucidate please
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Kurth is an interesting fellow and must have what it takes to survive as a resident conservative at Swarthmore College (which has been rated America's #1 liberal arts school, has a good engineering program as well, and is a green and socially conscious institution in what has been a liberal and tolerant borough for generations).
His "Coming to Order" article is still topical for the Afghanistan decisions...
I read the subtext of most of these 'where are we going' commentaries as a caution against short term thinking in business, and in personal goals like education, as the factor working against our continued success.
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#244 db
"One thing I've noticed though about most Americans is that they have an extreme paranoia regarding their government. This is where I feel they need to grow up and stop acting like children."
Sounds just like the Europhobes back in the good old UK.
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Timothy (#146) " ... the US has to import nearly 80% of it's energy ... "
Not true. The US imports one-third of its energy, and exports seven per cent. Here is a link to the chard from the US Department of Energy:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/diagram1.html
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That reference should have been #246, of course.
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#247 Philly-Mom
Totally off topic with apologies. There is a strong link between the Basque people and the Jews. In the late 1500's when the Spanish were seriously into their Inquisition phase some Jews then based in and around Valencia decided that for safety's sake they would be better off somewhere else and headed over the Pyrenees. Their first port of call was the ancient city of Bayonne. These Jews had the secret of making chocolate and the Basque seamen of Bayonne were only too pleased when told of where to get cocao to go and get it. Chocolate making started in Bayonne and has never left there. And so the Basque Jews were making chocolates in Bayonne 250 years before Belgium was even thought of.
End of history lesson.
Enjoy
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#251 GH1618
Sorry I am corrected I misread something, but my other point about consumption stands.
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T1m0thy (#254), yes, but it not so simple as to merely compare energy consumption per capita and draw conclusions from that. One of the biggest consumers of energy world-wide, for example, is the production of alumin(i)um from ore. The UK produces very little; Canada, and to a lesser extent the US, produce a great deal and export the refined product. It makes sense to refine ores where the ores are found or where the energy to refine them is cheap, preferably both.
The country with the lowest energy consumption per capita is, as I recall, Chad.
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228 RomeStu wrote:
"Sounds great.... but does this means that the Basque Seperatists wish to seperate these women from their exotic underwear .... ooooh Rabbi, stop it!"
Nice to see that the spirit of Sam lives on...
;-)
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A highly healthy sign is the development that iceland shall now be a McDonalds' free zone.
i take great comfort in this. it shows the right direction to go in.
Don't get me wrong: where America actually does something better than anyone else -- as in the Apple company or its affiliate Pixar (i am thinking "Wall-E") -- that creates an excellent standard for competition and advances for everyone.
But where America has a really bad idea -- junk food, junk programming, junk banking, junk policy, poor teaching, a decay in family interaction or in Culture per se -- the world is right to say: not one step further, thanks very much.
And you can hold that ketchup, too.
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Blinking Heck, Interestedforeigner re post 233,
I`d go north for a while if I was you!.You should be ok up there, but if
she gets you first,I bags your ski-doo..
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RomeStu,
This thread is all about America. I have no way, except the news [usual suspects] to find out what Alaskans really think about their former governor and GOP VP candidate, Sarah Palin. Since you mentioned an authentic connection with that state, would you please consider enlightening us about how the soccer mom who shoots moose from a flying machine is really viewed way up there? This would be especially interesting as you have both inside and outside views to call upon.
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# 222 fluffytale wrote:
"so grammar troll,if you like but it proves nothing about anything to do with reasoning."
Fluffyjack, this seems to be rather a recurring theme of yours.
Obviously the odd typo will slip into everyone's posting, and obviously some people are better at spelling and punctuation than others.
I certainly don't point out every such error I spot. I do tend to if replying to MagicKirin because [a] it's easy - they're hard to miss, and he often manages them at a rate of about one a sentence, if not more. [Of course, I didn't realise that the Mods were inserting these errors - clearly they are terrorist sympathisers ;-)] [b] I enjoy it and [c] I think it's merited, since so many of his postings are little more than prejudice and snidery, generally with very little evidence. [Ironically enough, one of the many groups he has a beef with seems to be academics...]
Having said that, to my mind, making some attempt at correct grammar, spelling and punctuation - using paragraphs [with spaces between them], commas, full stops, capital letters etc - is a courtesy to the reader, and makes a posting easier to read. So if people don't bother with them, I tend to skip over their postings.
To use an analogy - if I am talking to someone with a strong accent, or a stutter or some other speech defect, I would expect to make the effort to understand them. OTOH, if someone attempts to talk to me while eating, with their mouth full of food, but wide open, spraying crumbs as they go - I'm likely to give them a miss, regardless of how scintillating they may think themself...
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# 232 seanspa wrote:
"I too have sympathy for mk. The mods pick on me as well, changing my brilliantly written posts so that they appear here as a load of carp."
For Cod's hake, Seanspa, are you seriously suggesting that salmon in the BBC is altering your postings?
Sounds distinctly fishy to me....
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I have been to 12 out of the 35 countries in America. Only one refers to the USA as America. If you want to do an America blog, please include some of the other 34. Thanks.
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The McDonald's franchise in Iceland closed for purely economic reasons, not because of any change of thinking about health or such:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/27/mcdonalds-to-quit-iceland
It's a mystery to me why McDonald's is established in most European countries. Is it so American tourists have something familiar when they tire of the local fare? (I observed this phenomenon on a European trip.)
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#255 GH1618
It no doubt is Chad poor souls, but your point seems to be an exercise in misdirection. I wasn't talking about Canada and I think that the US predilection for SUV's and other energy hungry toys has a lot more to do with high consumption than the production of Aluminium.
For instance in a lot of towns/cities in California a state with very high levels of natural sunlight it is breach of city ordinances to hang washing outside to dry. You have to use energy hungry electric or gas dryers.
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brasileirocanuck (#262), "America" is commonly understood in the English language to mean the United States of America, as well as to the Western Hemishpere generally:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/american?view=uk
The meaning intended by "Mardell's America" is perfectly clear, particularly as he explains it further as "Political analysis and a British perspective on life in the US."
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223. At 2:28pm on 27 Oct 2009, fluffytale wrote:
“Someone mentions "more intelligentsia crap"
That is what I see in the case of the business owner in new mexico that is making his staff change their name to an anglicised name, and only speak English in his presence( worried the staff are calling him bad names probably).
ANy claim that this is not racist is really trying to put some academic debate into what is a simple call.” [sic]
Surely you aren’t serious. Your illogical statement indicates that English speakers are a race, non-English speakers are a race, and that expecting employees to speak English is racist.
FYI, the US has no official language, no one is required [legally] to read/write/speak English, and many official actions like getting a driver’s license can be done in a variety of languages.
Sometimes employers require their employees to speak the language of their customers. How weirdly PC to expect English speaking customers to deal with clerks who only speak Spanish, for example, in an English dominant country. As to names, expecting non-speakers of, for example, Slavic [no vowels] or Thai [mind boggling] to read or use those names is both unrealistic and could drive away paying customers.
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You make a good point. I definitely agree that many American’s perceptions of the British are based on TV shows. It’s a condescending stereotype to say the least (dry humoured and a feeling of grand intelligence to name a few), but at the same time most think of the UK as our closest ally and the most similar culture to ours. I’m sure both sides understand these stereotypes are vast exaggerations at the very least, but they still exist and aren’t helpful.
The difference is, as you pointed out, we are not entrenched in European culture to anywhere near the degree it seemed (to me) many European cultures are entrenched in American pop culture. Before travelling abroad, I had assumed the predominate “stars” in any given country would be that of their own country… it just seemed a little odd to me.
As many love to point out (and I find it hard to disagree) most American’s know little about the rest of the world’s culture, politics, etc. This seems partly based on the relative feeling of security in America. Not many American’s are truly concerned about war coming to our town, and the past decades of financial security made us care even less. Many don’t care about the world if it doesn’t affect them directly. Obviously, this is the wrong attitude to have but I understand how people get to that point. Needless to say, there are still millions of well read intelligent people here as well.
I think this ethnocentric view is passing with new generations b/c of America’s declining power in the world, the ease of worldwide communication, and the tanking economy, among other things. Most young American’s I know dream of, or have already travelled to Europe. Think if the USA was next door to European countries. We’d be much more aware of their cultures and how their politics affect us. On a side note, the US is huge in it’s own right, and our children are taught the 50 states and their capitals before learning of anything outside the states.
So no, we don’t all know who your “president” is. Partly because he’s so boring in comparison w/Obama, IMO. Tony Blaire was known pretty well in the states b/c he seemed a little more relatable, regardless of his policies.
Sorry for turning this into a W.Europe vs USA blog, but the comments seemed to be heading that way, and I’m interested to hear a different perspective to my views.
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T1m0thy (#264), no doubt there is a lot more involved than production of aluminum and other refined products. A big factor is the size, and relatively low density, of the the US, and consequent inefficiencies of transportation.
We in the US are trying to do better. Driving distance per capita has been reduced in recent years, for example. Similarly, efficiency of electic devices has been improving. I have a medium-size SUV, and its fuel economy is not much different than that of many ordinary automobiles with similar (V6) engines. I'm not going to get rid of it for awhile. If I did, the total energy equation would have to include the energy cost of scrapping the old one and building a new one. We are seeing more and more of the tiny urban "smart" cars, but there is no way I would have one as my only vehicle.
I happen to have an energy-efficient European "clothes processor," but unfortunately the "dry" cycle doesn't work particularly well. Fortunately, in California, the humidity is generally low enough that clothes will air-dry indoors without sunlight, which is how we routinely do it.
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244. At 5:30pm on 27 Oct 2009, db wrote:
“…One thing I've noticed though about most Americans is that they have an extreme paranoia regarding their government…. The main quip I have is that any slightly socialist ideal is condemned as if it will drag the country into a communist state. The main topic at the moment being health care. Coming from Europe I just don't understand the wide spread opposition to universal health care.”
Very astute, and I will try to answer. Our country was founded on distrust of government interference with the citizens’ lives. This was not limited to British central or colonial governments. The Civil war was very large and costly, and southerners are the most paranoid and anti-government of Americans. Americans tend to be religious; and it is said that atheists are the least trusted minority. Therefore it isn’t surprising that “Godless Socialism or Godless Communism” arouses suspicion. This relic of the Cold War persists.
You are right about this. All of these prejudices are used by the healthcare, insurance and pharmaceuticals industries to befuddle the people. I really hate the commercials that state, “You wouldn’t want your healthcare controlled by an uncaring bureaucrat in Washington, would you?” or the like. Those companies have the deep pockets to fund so much propaganda that it isn’t surprising that the people who most need change are dead set against it.
@242. At 5:22pm on 27 Oct 2009, Pennsylvania_Farmer wrote:
“Fluff, in the form of stupid TV, silly news or french fries, sells.”
[If you don’t like jokes or puns, stop reading now.]
Fluff is one of Massachusetts most popular food products. Some people think it should be used alone, but others swear by Fluff in their peanut butter sandwiches. Yes, Fluff sells, it’s sugary and you all know how Americans like sugary things.
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A reply to 259 McJakome
I'm afraid my analysis of the whole Sarah Palin thing in Alaska and later the wider USA is tainted by a deep aversion to religious fundamentalists.
However my inside Alaska contacts (who, for the record, were not supporters) tell me that state politics is a very small pond up there - big state, not many people ... some strange people crop up. And add to that the powerfully partisan spirit that often grows stronger in smaller more isolated communities, and you can see how it happened.
Plus remember that a very large number of Americans believe exactly what she believes - it just seems odd to Europeans who generally prefer that religion is kept out of politics (or at least well hidden) - look at the grief Blair got when he "came out" as a Christian .... in a Church of England country!
Hope that sheds some light - what do you think about it all?
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Ref. 262 There is only country in the Americas with America in its name. When the others add that word to their country name, perhaps they too might be referred to as America No. 2, 3 or whatever. Grow up yourself! Everyone knows we ARE America.
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263 GH
"It's a mystery to me why McDonald's is established in most European countries."
It's just business and capitalism .... big international corporation franchises its product around the world and lots of people buy it.
I remember the first McDs in Britain - near Victoria station - in 1977 (I think - I seem to remember seeing Star Wars and having a mc burger for the first time as linked events - I was 9!). People went mad for it, and it spread like wildfire.
Remember that back then British food was not the greatest and this new fancy American thing was just what we didn't know we wanted.
It was supply driven , not demand driven .... a bit like reality TV really - before it happened no one knew they wanted it, now we can't get rid of it!
Incidentally, despite all the media coverage of occasional protests, it is France that is the most profitable European country for McDonalds. Work that one out .... but at least they serve beer at French McDs.
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Recommend two articles on the internet currently shedding some light on the problem of excessively high comfort with America's exploitative sexual obsessions, one from the perspective of the American elite, the other from the perspective of Americans marginalised by poverty:
The first is the Vanity Fair article about David Letterman's rather typical (for Hollywood) sexual exploitation of female staffers, and the generally exploitative, unprofessional, sexually charged and skewed work environments that even such prominent American women as Barbara Walters defend. (Hmmm, what are you implying, Ms. Walters?)
The second is an excellent two-part report in the New York Times about runaway teens who are driven into prostitution for survival -- and that directly ties in to my prior excoriation of the porn promoters and smut peddlers.
We really can and must do better as a 21st century community. Certainly America has no right going around criticising other societies unless it can protect its own women and children better. What exactly are we modeling here?
Balancing against that we have the notable recent successes of the FBi and other law enforcement agencies, including many in Europe, in bringing to justice those who prostitute, enslave and exploit children, minors and the desperately naive.
Obviously, more can & must be done. Since the people hellbent on prosecuting file-sharing have people like Carla Bruni speaking out against such "abuses" -- and have demonstrated a capacity to track down individual users of file-sharing sites -- it obviously is extremely easy to go after those who promote and disseminate obscene content, especially to minors or exploiting minors...
Perhaps Ms. Bruni, Ms. Allen and some of the others who have gone on the record as upset with file-sharers will speak out as forcefully against the exploitation of young people & women by pornographers?
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267 cknight
"I had assumed the predominate “stars” in any given country would be that of their own country… it just seemed a little odd to me."
France has laws on radio broadcasting that mandate a certain amount of French songs per hour to stop the big international tunes killing local talent.
Italy however has a thriving domestic music scene - there's even Italian rap - but it doesn't get much further than Meditteranean Europe.
When I was growing up in England in the 70s & 80s there was almost no music on the radio that was not English-language (ok Debbie Harry sang in French a few times, and Kraftwerk had a few hits but you know what I mean).
When I moved to Italy my friends are amazed that I don't know some classic Spanish, French, German or Italian dance anthem (ok Europop if you like) from the long hot summers of the 80s.
This is not a complaint against US music (and also film), but given the money the US record labels and film studios have, the local talent can barely compete .... and the locals here want both.
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270. At 8:20pm on 27 Oct 2009, RomeStu wrote:
A reply to 259 McJakome
“Hope that sheds some light - what do you think about it all?”
Born in Boston, MA, and writing from a suburb of the “most European, or British” city in the US, my opinion of the “Wicked Witch of Wasilla” [no offence intended to Wiccans it’s a movie reference] is predictably negative.
Your opinion, “a deep aversion to religious fundamentalists” is not too different from majority opinion in the US Northeast. To which you could add aversion to religious involvement in government. Perhaps, having had the Puritans a couple of centuries ago, we know where that leads and aren’t having any.
This is one of the odd contradictions mentioned a number of times above. Most Americans are religious to some degree, and a majority much more so than most Europeans. Yet the country is divided on that issue. Most think some sort of religious identity is essential to civil society and proper civic behaviour, while a bare majority is of the opinion that separation of church and state is essential.
I have referred to Sarah Palin as John McCain’s “poison pill strategy.” It looks like she is the candidate with which to destroy the Republican Party from within by making it captive to a very narrow regional and religious base. As to shooting moose from the air, how unsporting can you get! Does she cheat in soccer playing too?
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Time for a new string Mark.
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The Stars and Stripes Forever is not just a song, it appears to be a fact of life. That fact is one Europe detests and always has from the day America invented itself. There is no other society or place on earth that has nearly as much going for it. It is in a state of perpetual renewal like no other place, drawing the most ambitious and energetic people from every nation on earth including its remotest corners like a magnet. Its current problems are insignificant compared to what it has been through in the past. Much much worse many times before when it looked like it was doomed. But each time it has faced seemingly impossible adversity it has come back even stronger. Every other nation, every group of nations has at least one and often many defects that are certain to be fatal to its future, China and Europe as much as any of them. It was over 100 years ago that John D. Rockerfeller said that anyone who bet against America would go broke. He was right then, he would be equally right saying it now. For all its seeming problems, never has America's future looked brighter. It is sitting on top of the world with nobody in a position to knock it off the summit. America young and adolescent needing to grow up? No Europe is old and tired looking desperately for a new identity to help it hang on to the last shreds of illusions about its worth. That is also doomed to fail.
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Idealism. I dont really know if Americans understand why other cultures are more interesting than theirs. Sure they want to travel to other parts of the world and experience other things but why leave so soon? There should efforts to better their own country and explore what it has to offer. The 51 states, national monuments, National Parks?? However there is a negative stereotype surrounding American culture one that boasts of fast food, television? the constant need for control , beligerence. If America would like to remain a world leader and have a respected voice in the international community there has to be some kind display.
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magmacartaBeth4;
You seem to know a lot about America. Maybe more than I do. Could you enlighten me as to which is America's 51st state? I seemed to have missed that news somewhere along the way. Nope, not Puerto Rico...nor Washington DC. Try again.
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MAII (#279), that was obviously an innocent error. There's no reason to be snotty about it.
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#277 - Yes, and it was a hundred years ago exactly when The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) is founded, commemorating the 100th anniversary of President Abraham Lincoln's birth.
279 - Why, its Grace, of course! Oh, wait a second, maybe it was Panic...
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279 Marcus
"Could you enlighten me as to which is America's 51st state?"
I thought it was the "State of Fear" engendered by Bush, Cheney, Rove et al in order to justify their belligerent foreign policy and the Patriot Act at home.
Wooop Wooop Wooop We are now at Code Orange. Please return to your homes.
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#272 RomeStu
Very good, but in France it's McDo's not McD's and they serve wine as well. When they opened EuroDisney there was great puzzlement within the management team as to why the French although visiting were not eating until someone pointed out that maybe Disney sans alcool worked in the US but no chance in La France. Vive la difference it would be so boring if everywhere was the same.
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#277 MAII
"Much much worse many times before when it looked like it was doomed. But each time it has faced seemingly impossible adversity it has come back even stronger."
Marcus what are you on today??? Seemingly impossible adversity!!! The US has never known such a thing, you may have had some hard times, no doubt, but compared to many other places in this world you live in a land of milk and honey.
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Tweaky take on Americana, but misses the boat. Proves any writer can angle an idea or argument and drive it to ridiculous distances. Any system created by man, including America or any other group or nation can and has been viewed skeptically. Some systems do have a better track record depending on your measuring stick, and all have fault.
America is going through so so much more than his thin munchie-consumption prism.
Let's take it away from people, let robots/ computers lead, and THEN see if the human being is satisfied. Not likely.
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#270 Stu
Plus remember that a very large number of Americans believe exactly what she [Palin] believes - it just seems odd to Europeans who generally prefer that religion is kept out of politics (or at least well hidden) - look at the grief Blair got when he "came out" as a Christian .... in a Church of England country!
Ha ha. But it was worse than that RomeStu - he 'came out' as a catholic!! Mind you though, the Anglicans and Catholics seem to be kissing and making up at the mo.
I hope Blair has confessed about his sin wanting to be European President. Unforgivable! At least he's not one of those Humanists.
;-)
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ref #272
In an International Marketing class we did a study on McDonalds. They spend a great deal of time analyzing their markets and modifying product to the culture.
Now as a visitor I would never visit mcD or Starbucks in France but by the same token, that oaf farmer who breaks windows should not be held in esteem either.
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#277 Marcus
The Stars and Stripes Forever is not just a song, it appears to be a fact of life.
I checked it on wikipedia Marcus and it's definitely a song, and a marching song at that. Is marching a fact of life you Marcus? You right whingers like marching - especially with your shiny black boots on.
It didn't say anything about it being a fact of life though. Ironically, wiki says it was written in Europe. It's a funny old world!
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288.: LOL.
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#272. RomeStu: "this new fancy American thing was just what we didn't know we wanted."
Before McDonalds became established in Britain, there were America-style Wimpy (A Meal in a Bun) Bars throughout the UK - the Wimpy originating in Chicago. The then-huge catering company, J. C. Lyons & Co, had introduced these immediately after WWII (having planned to do so in the late 1930s) and in London several were on the sites which encompassed the Corner Houses. Not to be outdone, their rivals, the Forte Group, also served hamburgers, notably in what is now the Criterion Restaurant in Piccadilly Circus. The difference was that by 1977, McDonalds had developed the "California burger" which, as in California generally, was served with lettuce, tomato and "secret sauce". Others, such as New York's 'White Tower' chain, simply provided a cooked hamburger in a bun, with no additions. The coming of McDonalds to Britain was nothing new, it was simply an improvement on what had been available before.
#273. maria-ashot: "The first is the Vanity Fair article about David Letterman's rather typical (for Hollywood) sexual exploitation of female staffers"
David Letterman works and produces his programme in New York. What proof do you have that his behaviour extends to the West Coast?
You seem very hung up about sex; erotic or "pornographic" images have existed for thousands of years and no civilisation has "fallen" because of them. Considering the act necessary to produce them, I'm surprised to read that you actually have two children.
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273. At 8:30pm on 27 Oct 2009, maria-ashot wrote:
Recommend two articles on the internet currently shedding some light on the problem of excessively high comfort with America's exploitative sexual obsessions, one from the perspective of the American elite, the other from the perspective of Americans marginalised by poverty:
The first is the Vanity Fair article about David Letterman's rather typical (for Hollywood) sexual exploitation of female staffers, and the generally exploitative, unprofessional, sexually charged and skewed work environments that even such prominent American women as Barbara Walters defend. (Hmmm, what are you implying, Ms. Walters?)
The second is an excellent two-part report in the New York Times about runaway teens who are driven into prostitution for survival -- and that directly ties in to my prior excoriation of the porn promoters and smut peddlers.
__________
No. Not so much.
You are trying to conflate two things that have nothing to do with each other.
David Letterman did not break any laws. He did not engage in exploitative or coercive or manipulative behaviour. It is not unknown for men like to having sex. The women agreed. There is no suggestion that it was not consensual. The only thing he has done than many people consider "wrong", is that he appears not to have been forthright with his wife, which is another, entirely private matter. Surely that is their business, and nobody else's.
It has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with prostitution, pornography, or "smut", as you put it.
As a former Minister of Justice once said so famously "The government has no business in the bedrooms of the nation." And, with respect, other than your own, neither do you.
--------
In many countries it is not against the law, per se, to sell sex, nor is it good public policy,a good use of police effort, or a good use of taxpayer's money to try and outlaw prostitution for its own sake. Trying to stop men paying for sex or women selling sex is a fool's errand, and it has been for as long as there have been men and women.
It is, however, against the law to traffic in human beings, to live off the avails of prostitution, to coerce people into prostitution, to have sex with minors, to forcible confine, or effectively to enslave others.
Again, the evils of coerced prostitution are not the same as what you call "pornography" or "smut", per se, although the same kinds of exploitative people may often be found in both activities. The issue is about unequal, manipulative and often violent relationships or behaviour, forcible confinement, and so on. These are things that the police can, and do, address - as they should - just the same as other unequal, manipulative, and violent behaviour.
It is not sex or "pornography" that makes this behaviour wrong, it is the unequal, manipulative and violent behaviour that is often found with it. And, rightly, that is where the police now focus their effort. Not before time, either.
The problem that needs to be addressed is the underlying violence in our society.
In the meantime, do us all a favor and stop being Mrs. Kravitz.
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284. At 10:15pm on 27 Oct 2009, T1m0thy wrote:
#277 MAII
“…Marcus what are you on today??? Seemingly impossible adversity!!! The US has never known such a thing [like it was doomed], you may have had some hard times, no doubt, but compared to many other places in this world you live in a land of milk and honey. …”
Please check pictures of what Atlanta looked like during a Civil War that killed more Americans than all other wars combined, and pictures and articles about the Great Depression. Others may have had it worse, but you seem to think we had a picnic.
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261. At 7:33pm on 27 Oct 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:
# 232 seanspa wrote:
"I too have sympathy for mk. The mods pick on me as well, changing my brilliantly written posts so that they appear here as a load of carp."
For Cod's hake, Seanspa, are you seriously suggesting that salmon in the BBC is altering your postings?
Sounds distinctly fishy to me....
________
Best post in ages. At least it isn't kippers.
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Stewed in Rome;
"I thought it was the "State of Fear" engendered by Bush, Cheney, Rove..."
Actually it was a state of rage engendered by the attacks on 9-11. Our most advanced society's influence on certain backwards portions of the world have so angered people who want to keep it backwards that some of them have made it plain that our society cannot remain as open as it was so long as they and their kind exist. And so our society will be tighter and more closed, more restrictive until they are eliminated and we feel safe again. That has also happened before, as with internment of Japanese Americans during WWII for which no apology ever should have been offered. Nor should one for GITMO which has served America very well revealing lots of planned attacks before they could be carried out.
T-mouth;
"compared to many other places in this world you live in a land of milk and honey."
Finally you said something I agree with. That is true even when compared to the EU when taken in totality and on an objective basis. According to the conclusion drawn by BBC in its flawed series "America Age of Empire" it is almost certain to stay that way for the indefinite future. The reasons why can only be discerned by a careful study of American history, culture, and society and taken in the broader context of the rest of the world. Few Europeans including evidently just about all BBC employees (except if they have American employees) have not done that. Certainly Justin Webb hadn't.
deep in the cellar;
I don't know where The Stars and Stripes Forever was penned but it was written by an American John Phillip Sousa. Perhaps if he wrote it when visiting Europe, the contrast between what he was seeing and his own country inspired him. Whatever it was, I like that tune, especially the part where the brass trombones trumpets and tubas blare, the cymbals crash, and then the piccolo plays. That piccolo part is rather reminiscent of the fife and drum 18th century American marchers in post colonial garb might have played just after they whacked the Brits and kicked them out of what was to become America.
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Oy lighten up, I think Maria-ashot is talking about abuse, incl abuse of children, not healthy sex trade or art. There is no 'pragmatic' about that kind of abuse - which is an issue with the Professor's article...is it idealism, or morality that we need to abandon with our 'adolescence'. And then whose morality or image do we spread....not the wicked witch of Wasilla's per #275
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Marcus
I like John Phillip Sousa every 4 years when they play it during the Olympics while the USA's athletes do their walk in front of thousands of Olympic fans.
And it is fun.
Otherwise, I think Aaron Copeland is the best American "classical music"..um ...composer. (I do like music its just that I'm rather limited there)
There is also that guy who won the Bi-Centennial prize for writing a piece of music about Alioe in Wonderland (its really sensational)
Does anyone know of this composer? He is American, has won a Pulitzer and his music is about Lewis Csrroll's inspiration...oh I'll look it up on Google.
But, also, Fluffytale, you have a great sense of humor. The Republican party was in power so long I think THEY think they ARE America
and now they are just the embarrassing part of us....oh well, they ARE human.
:)
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To grow up and to grow strong, America needs to overhaul its senate and congress. Too many idiots are more interested in lining their own pockets than serving the people. Do you know that they earn more than $150K a year, have their own health care and retirement, and are paid for life even after they leave office?
Check out this new blog:
http://idiotsatusadotgov.blogspot.com/
Or just read this:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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This comment is very true.The US like all New Kids On The Block(NKOB) thinks that they are the best in everything and the whole world must emulate them.They try to push down the throats of others from the system of government,finance, religion medicine etc.Look at Iraq,Afghanistan,East Europe,Central Asia,South America and Africa.All these problems are from the this attitude of the US.I am not saying that the values of America are wrong,I am just America needs to grow up and take a second look at others and themselves.Buddhists have a saying,before you point your hand at others,point three fingers at yourself first.This comment was true 2500 years ago and is still true now.
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#295. frayedcat: "Oy lighten up, I think Maria-ashot is talking about abuse, incl abuse of children, not healthy sex trade or art."
She appears to equate every sexual act outside of marriage as perverse and dismisses those who indulge themselves and their partners in consensual fetishistic and supposedly aberrant activity as being mentally ill. To my mind her opinions are rigid, conformist and reactionary. I'd be interested in her views on Proposition 8 and the fight in Maine regarding the same subject - and I've no doubt that she hopes that Roe -v- Wade is overturned. With the exception of child-related abuse - and not just with young females - what one watches in the privacy of one's home is no-one's business but their own. Before she or anyone writes to remark that this is too broad, there are some exceptions of course: snuff films for example, just as murder in the name of a sex game would still be murder. There is a case wending its way through the system concerned with women stomping high heels on helpless kittens; although it is disgusting, it could very well be permitted under the freedom of speech provisions. Unlike the UK, the written Constitution plays a great part in what is or is not permitted to be seen, said or done.
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sb
I have no idea what you are talking about. During the Olympics, they play the national anthems of the participating nations. The Stars and Stripes Forever is not America's national anthem, the Star Spangled Banner is and John Phillip Sousa had nothing to do with it.
"Marcus
I like John Phillip Sousa every 4 years when they play it during the Olympics while the USA's athletes do their walk in front of thousands of Olympic fans.
And it is fun."
From Wikipedia;
"The Star-Spangled Banner" is the national anthem of the United States of America. The lyrics come from "Defence of Fort McHenry",[1] a poem written in 1814 by the 35-year-old amateur poet Francis Scott Key after witnessing the bombardment of Fort McHenry by Royal Navy ships in Chesapeake Bay during the Battle of Baltimore in the War of 1812."
"The poem was set to the tune of a popular British drinking song, written by John Stafford Smith for the Anacreontic Society, a men's social club in London. "The Anacreontic Song" (or "To Anacreon in Heaven")"
You also said;
"Otherwise, I think Aaron Copeland is the best American "classical music"..um ...composer. (I do like music its just that I'm rather limited there)"
Well perhaps I know a little bit more about American composers of classical music than you but I agree. Copland captures the sense of America in his music like no other composer IMO. (Not counting his composition El Salon Mexico of course.)
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Through the eyes of the world, the U.S. will always be seen as 'young' as the country was formed about 300+ years ago(even though I tell people that my ancestors the Native American had been here years before). Someone who is an adolescent is constantly trying to find their place in the world, rebels, lashes out, and sometimes throws a hissy fit when he/she doesn't get their way.
As an American, I will say like any other country in the world we certainly do need to change our ways. I don't know if "growing up" is the right term, but I do believe that we as American citizens certainly need to become a bit more aware of issues in our country that have long been ignored---wealth inequality( the top 1% controlling everything), debilitating public education, shipping jobs overseas, and accepting the fact that we are PART of the world and not "the world." I feel the biggest threat facing the US right now is the "dumbing down of America" which possibly has been taking place over the past 30 years. I'm ashamed at this anti-intellectual movement that is taking root in some places. Or maybe that's what those controlling most of the wealth want, so people won't question things. It seems that being seen as "smart" is viewed as being suspicious and being "stupid" is seen as good. This has just been my experience.
I have many friends from all over the world and have done some traveling out of the US as well. It always interests me when some of the people that I meet from different countries tell me that "I'm a different from most Americans" or they're surprised that I have a world perspective, ie that I am aware of current events in other parts of the world. I get annoyed when people want to think of the U.S. as a monolith. Every state is different. After living in NYC for the past 5 years, I relocated to Los Angeles and the two are VERY different.
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ref #298
They try to push down the throats of others from the system of government,finance, religion medicine etc.Look at Iraq,Afghanistan,East Europe,Central Asia,South America and Africa.All these problems are from the this attitude of the US.
_____________________________-
Are you kidding? So if there is a corrupt goverment in Africa,or South America it is the U.S fault. That we donate more to aid than any other nation is a problem. If you look at this hemisphere the most progressive nations have great relationships with the U.S. The dictatorships or ones that engage in class warfare are adversaries.
They blame the U.S to deflect from their problems and you drink that Kool-Aid
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I find it remarkable that people from all over the world but especially from the UK seem to know what America should do to "fix" itself yet they know almost nothing of substance about America. That includes Mark Mardell and Justin Webb. How did we ever get as far as we did without their sage advice? Just dumb luck I guess. Well then the old saying must be true; God looks out for drunks, fools, and the United States of America. And they want to know why we ignore them.
limpheadway;
"The US like all New Kids On The Block(NKOB) thinks that they are the best in everything.."
It only gets in people's craw because it happens to be true. The facts speak for themselves. As for America shoving itself down people's throats, it seems to me that it is the other way around. People all over the world crave to emulate America. We never force them to watch American TV or movies, listen to American music, eat at MacDonalds they just seem to want it. How frustrating that must be for locals who have something else to offer. And how surprising that when given their first chance to vote in anything even remotely resembling free and fair elections, Iraqis and Afghans turned out by the millions even at the risk of their lives to wait on long lines to do it. And that too is frustrating to those who hoped they'd be satisfied with the cruel and brutal dictatorships that had been imposed on them since time forgotten.
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#303 Marcus
I find it remarkable that people from all over the world but especially from the UK seem to know what America should do to "fix" itself yet they know almost nothing of substance about America. That includes Mark Mardell and Justin Webb.
Considering that you Marcus always judge the mood in your trailer for the entire US I would put you in the list.
At least Mark and Justin are (or were) not stuck in a trailer park in New Jersey!! I'd rather have the views from 'inside the beltway' anyday to yours!
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Marcus – Did you actually read the article before you jumped in with your angry size 10’s? If I was a betting man I would guess not. The main body of what Mark wrote was either an analysis or direct quote of the professor, really all Mark did was suggest that he found the majority of Americans to be rather conservative and reserved and then ask whether the posters agreed with the professors opinions.
If you had read the article Mark was commenting on you would have noted that the ‘good’ professor’s opinion of how grand and wonderful the US is matches your own. The idea he is promoting is that the US should maintain its economic and military power but currently this is being undermined by both the Obama Administration and reliance on ‘soft’ power including the media.
What Mark has successfully (though probably unintentionally) done is managed to get many of those who have similar political and social outlooks to the evangelical conservative Republican professor to get all upset about his ‘attack’ on American culture. Instead of reading the article properly and thinking about you and those posters like you have attacked the messenger, since he is but a lowly European, rather than the message.
I am glad you think that the professor is wrong, since his views mirror posters like you so very much. It just proves that your views are simply reactionary, that you will view as an attack against the great US of A any potential criticism from an outsider, without considering the merits or basis of that criticism. It displays the chip that sits squarely on your shoulders, how much of you patriotism is bravado that doesn’t hold any real conviction.
To add to the shocking truths here’s a few more American movies are okay but they are not the greatest in the world. I have seen some French, Japanese, Russian even the odd British film that adds a level of grit that Hollywood has lost. Hollywood films are formulaic and obvious, you can tell the good guys from the bad (normally the bad are the ones with the funny accents) and you know no matter how unrealistic that the good guys will win in the end. Aliens with ultra tech star ships able to cross the gulf of space invade, don’t worry a plucky yank with a lap top will be able to take them out with a computer virus (on 4th July obviously).
There is good US music, but the problem is quite often the US Plutarchs find them to un-American to be sold. It seems in the Land of the Free you can be free to be a rebel, as long as you don’t rebel too much. The big US corporations also don’t like certain Welsh bands inferring things about their brands, proving that in some cases the corps really do have Just Enough Education to Perform!
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Ref 302, Magic
"If you look at this hemisphere the most progressive nations have great relationships with the U.S. The dictatorships or ones that engage in class warfare are adversaries."
In the USA the term "progressive" is often used in political forums to describe liberal Democrats. Is that what you are praising?
The wealthiest nations in Latin America, and the ones that enjoy the highest standard of living are Brazil, Venezuela, Chile and Argentina. All have socialist leaders and, with the exception of Chile, all have rejected FTAs with the USA and became members of Mercosur instead.
They all have diplomatic relations with the USA, are important trade partners (Brazil and Venezuela are our most important trade partners in Central and South America) and in spite of all the political rhetoric and overt antagonism they love American movies, cars, and try to emulate our way of life.
On the issue of growing up, the first thing we must do is make an effort to learn more about other cultures, learn to respect the sovereignty and interests of other countries, learn to respect and accept their political and socio-economic decisions, and realize that the rest of the world is not an evil monster determined to destroy the USA.
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I bet that marcus fella spells "grr" with twice as many "r"s as most people. That's how angry he is.
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@305 (DRM): "...American movies are okay but t