Monkey business
It appears to be the end of road for Richard the monkey's career as a "service animal", on the lines of a guide dog for the blind.
This does not appear to be discrimination against Richard, purely because he is a primate, although he has been banned from stores and restaurants which might not have barred a pooch. It is because his owner, a Missouri woman, claims she need his company to prevent panic attacks in public. A Federal judge has agreed with those who argue that Richard is a mere therapy animal or even - such lack of respect - a mere pet.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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Like the woman in Missouri my neighbor suffers from agoraphobia and panic disorder. And while she has a small dog for companionship, she cannot even bring herself to walk him in the street. The stress of being outside her "safe space" and having to watch the dog is just to much for her. A friend who's a psychiatrist tells me this is normal for someone with her condition. That being the case, I'm sure the judge's ruling was entirely appropriate.
Now a primate "service animal" for someone who is a quadriplegic would be an entirely different matter. I have heard that some quadriplegics have them, although I don't think they're trained to help with the shopping, or fetching another helping of all you can eat shrimp from the salad bar. :o
Still, the story's amusing in a Michael Jackson sort of way. I wonder if anyone ever complained about his bringing Bubbles the Chimp wherever he went? Didn't he get FAO Schwartz in New York to close its doors one year, so he could shop with Bubbles along? No doubt he paid a huge premium, on top of whatever he spent, and whether he knew it or not, for the toleration of that bit of monkey business.
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It sure looks like Rose is going to be unhappy without Rich. I mean if you have a kid and he/she misbehaves sometimes you are allowed to spank. But it would probably be illegal to spank the monkey. She is not disabled according to the judge, but the man with the yellow hat has a monkey in a hotel, in the cartoon Curious George. Next, someone is going to want to have a seeing eye bear or donkey.
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Brilliant, Mr. Mardell! This one brief post should satisfy all those who have nit-picked over one aspect or another of your previous reporting on this site. Oh, well done!
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Wow, that story is certainly right out of left field, I'm almost speechless. A monkey, a federal judge, and a woman with panic attacks...
I'm afraid to see where this topic would lead me.
On a side note, did anyone hear about America's newest hybrid? I'll give yall a hint, it's not a car.
And lastly, here's a big story out of New Orleans from today's Times-Picayune:
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf/2009/10/post_8.html
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#3. socialistlibertarian: "Brilliant, Mr. Mardell! This one brief post should satisfy all those who have nit-picked over one aspect or another of your previous reporting on this site. Oh, well done!"
You're nuts. Picking up a story from a local newspaper is hardly representative of life beyond Washington. Every newspaper and television station has some off-the-wall "light" reporting and my guess is that others could be found. There are more important issues - swine flu for example - which could be examined. My interpretation of the "brief post" is that it is the middle digit extended to those who have been critical. Not good enough!
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Ah, a story from Springfield! Now where have I heard of that place before? Hmmmm.....
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It looks like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't Mark
The occasional 'light' story can be a welcome relief from the heavyweight issues often discussed on this blogg.
I very rarely post here but read it every day and enjoy the diverse opinion and argument mostly good natured, intelligent and respectful, from the active members of this blogg.
Mark is never going to please all the members all of the time, just like Justin couldn't before him. But he is getting the content of his blogg mostly right and stimulating writen opinion even from the detracters.
Good job Mark and keep it up
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Such fun silliness is a welcome little larf! I am dying at ranter22! I suppose such comments, by nature, invited themselves. Somebody had to say it! :) I'm just sad it wasn't me.
BienvenueenLouisiana...Are you talking about the new hybridized perennial wheat? Very cool!
Thanks for the light break. I think this Fall darkness before the time change makes everything so dreary. I think every once-in-awhile, a silly side story is necessary to keep perspective. It's not ALL seriousness in life.
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Thanks Mark, there is nothing like a little monkey business to cheer people up when there is not much to rejoice about.
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I'm sure the monkey can obtain employment in economics or financial services....maybe academics if he can draw a chart.....politics is full of them....the bankers feed the monkies and the monkies do what they are told...companion animals.
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5, David Cunard -
My interpretation is the same as yours. Which is why I am so pleased with Mr. Mardell.
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Rubbish! How dare we belittle our furry primate friends!
After all, I'm sure that if we gave a dozen of them laptops and sufficient time (and monkey chow) that these fellows could eventually produce the ideal and perfectly bi-partisan health reform plan with public care option.
Do not underestimate the power of the monkeys.
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#11. socialistlibertarian: "5, David Cunard - My interpretation is the same as yours. Which is why I am so pleased with Mr. Mardell."
To quote Mandy Rice-Davies, "well, he would, wouldn't he?" But then I don't expect the poster knows who Rice-Davies is and why she came to be so quotable. Until there is more breadth to Mark's subjects, I shall continue to press him as best I can, since others here agree that there is more to American politics and life than the area in which he lives. A facetious post does nothing to ameliorate it.
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"A Federal judge has agreed with those who argue that Richard is a mere therapy animal or even - such lack of respect - a mere pet."
That's why we got rid of Tony Blair. What's the good of a seeing eye dog that can't see himself and causes its owner to bump into lamp posts? It was a case of the blind leading the blind. The dodgy dossier was the kicker. It could no longer be ignored especially since it helped cost the Republicans the seat of power.
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ranter22 @ 2 "But it would probably be illegal to spank the monkey."
I think its considered bad form to do that in public.
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14 MAII
"That's why we got rid of Tony Blair."
Just when we were wondering where you were, they give you the pills and pop you down in front of the computer.....
It seems to be business as usual in "Marcus-world", but just to remind you ... YOU got rid of George W Bush. Tony Blair resigned before WE could get rid of him (better part of valour....)
ps - could you get rid of Gordon Brown?
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Chimps belong in zoos, not walking down mainstreets. (sorry, er, they belong in the jungle....)
Anywho, I'd recommend an imaginary friend. I have one. He never gets denied entrance to restaurants, he never minds standing while I sit, doesn't hog the blankets in bed (our relationship is platonic, btw) and he's actually a great conversationalist.
Re the idea of more weighty matters to blog about. It's not possible to blog about everything. Some folks need to lighten up and realize what a blog is and what it's not.
If you want to get out of DC, come visit Minneapolis. You can stay at my folks’ place. I'll bbq no matter how cold. We'll eat, drink and be merry. If Filet Mignon topped with Roquefort and Cabernet Sauvignon appeal to you then drop me a line.
On the lighter side of the news, what about those wacky airline pilots overshooting the airport? I suppose its better it was a spirited argument they had rather than too many spirits!
Keep Dancing, Mark. Your doing just fine!
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Any bets on what our position is going to be on global warming?
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Mark, this certainly makes going outside of the beltway interesting! Your link though should have contained a health warning: May Contain Nuts!!
;-)
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Saint Dominick: perhaps you could intercede for those who live in Minnesota and affect us with a little global warming! Amen.
If Mark is going to visit me I want to make sure the weather is nice!
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This attachment to having to take a monkey to public places is unnatural. Clearly, this woman needs to chill out. Definitely the most bizarre monkey story I have heard, since the one about the ape that pulled off the woman's face in New York, while on Xanax, because he was jealous of her female friend. Is this Mark's version of a gag (jokester) story? I am sure there are a few laughs from the people who have read it.
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This attachment to having to take a monkey to public places is unnatural. Clearly, this woman needs to chill out. Definitely the most bizarre monkey story I have heard, since the one about the ape that pulled off the woman's face in New York, while on Xanax, because he was jealous of her female friend. Is this Mark's version of a gag (jokester) story? I am sure there are a few laughs from the people who have read it.
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if it wasnt for the monkeys, you wouldnt have evolved into human beings. You tend to read stories about apes who pulled off woman's face, and generalize this to every monkey, I read stories about apes which saved a child's life in a zoo, and generalize it all monkeys, including the one mentioned in this blog.
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If this judge had the courtesy to read about the monkey general Hanuman who rescued Sita, the wife of Hindu god, Rama, he would not have passed such a foolish judgment against this monkey. This monkey, with an enlish sounding name, is also trying to save the life of a woman who is captive of her own phobias.
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And if it wasnt for the good luck Hanuman, the monkey king, charm which the indians sent to Obama before elections, he would not have been sitting in the white house today.
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23. At 00:24am on 24 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
If this judge had the courtesy to read about the monkey general Hanuman who rescued Sita, the wife of Hindu god, Rama, he would not have passed such a foolish judgment against this monkey. This monkey, with an enlish sounding name, is also trying to save the life of a woman who is captive of her own phobias.
No American judge is going to base a ruling on a Hindu myth. The law on service animals is pretty standard here. The animal must perform a physical function that aids the disabled owner in performing their daily routine. Hence, guide dogs for the blind are always allowed in public establishments without question. Overcoming phobias through the use of an untrained animal of any species is not considered a physical or psychological necessity.
And besides, the woman didn't have any real phobias, she just claimed she did so she could take her pet into places where pets don't belong. Missouri isn't Punjab.
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Once upon a time there was a huge tree on the river bank which provided a comfortable place for some birds to build their nests on it. One day it rained a lot, and a few monkeys who were playing around the tree got wet and ran for the cover under it, they were shivering with cold and feeling miserable. The birds started to give them a lecture that they wouldnt have to shiver if they had built a home like them instead of playing all day, and that if they could build nests with their small beaks, the monkeys who have by the grace of G-d, two hands and two legs, could easily make houses for themselves. The lecture went on and on..The monkeys got annoyed by this lecture and said to each other that these birds can tolarate wind and rain. They sit comfortably in their nests, critisizing others, so they said to each other "let the rain stop and we will show them how to build homes" When the rain stopped, the monkeys climbed up the trees, destroyed their nests and threw away their eggs.The birds flew away in misery regretting what they had said to the monkeys and ever since then, birds have learnt not to give advice when its not asked for. If only americans learn this lesson from the birds, the world would surely be a better place.
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24. At 00:32am on 24 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
And if it wasnt for the good luck Hanuman, the monkey king, charm which the indians sent to Obama before elections, he would not have been sitting in the white house today.
I'm sure it's sitting in a place of honor with all the other bric-a-brac good luck charms he's received from around the world, including the heart shaped potato he acquired on Letterman a few weeks ago.
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Overcoming phobias through the use of an untrained animal of any species is not considered a physical or psychological necessity.
And besides, the woman didn't have any real phobias, she just claimed she did so she could take her pet into places where pets don't belong. Missouri isn't Punjab.
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We dont know the monkey was not trained and Who says that the monkey was the woman's therapist.It helps her to master the challanges she has to face because of her phobia. it was her sponsor, the being, whom she could rely on when she needed the support.
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28. At 02:16am on 24 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
We dont know the monkey was not trained and Who says that the monkey was the woman's therapist.It helps her to master the challanges she has to face because of her phobia. it was her sponsor, the being, whom she could rely on when she needed the support.
Monkeys are not trained in the US for use by phobics. The only monkeys that are trained are for use by quadriplegics. The standard treatment for an agoraphobic with panic disorder in the US is a combination of desensitization therapy and medication to prevent the panic attack. No monkeys, no animal companions for support outside the home. And no matter how much emotional comfort the monkey gives her, there are hygiene standards for service animals being allowed into restaurants and other places. If the monkey - and his owner - are not trained by a licensed private agency such as the Guide Dog Foundation for the Blind, to follow those standards, the court cannot make an allowance. It would set a precedent that might allow people to claim their pet rats, boa constrictors, goats, bunnies, roosters, pigs and tigers were service animals.
I don't know about you, but when I want to eat a nice meal at a good restaurant, I don't fancy sitting down to dinner with someone's pet rodent for company. Every guide dog I have ever had the pleasure of seeing has been extremely clean, well behaved and quiet. I can make no such claim about the monkeys I've had occasion to interact with.
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BETTER check out this link, it clarifies the issue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g7QTr1rzBk
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#29. Gavrielle_LaPoste: "I don't know about you, but when I want to eat a nice meal at a good restaurant, I don't fancy sitting down to dinner with someone's pet rodent for company."
The last time I checked, a monkey was not a rodent; however, I feel sure GWB was at home with TB as a dinner companion.
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Monkeys are not trained in the US for use by phobics.
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It was not as if this monkey was shoping or paying bills or doing other errands which this woman cannot do because of her phobia, the monkey is just a campanion, so she could master different challanges she faces in her every day life..Like the wife of Rama, this woman was a prison of her phobia, the monkey was her rescuer, the hanuman..This is a 21st century reality of the hindu mytholofical story..And when you eat at the resturant, you go there to eat, not to look at the people who sit around you, its a public place, not your or anyone's private space.
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This blog is a real turkey. Time to move on.
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#32. "the monkey is just a campanion"
Quite a few of those in Old Compton Street . . .
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My personal belief is that monkeys belong in trees and in wilderness, especially the larger monkeys/apes that can be dangerous, as they are so strong. The little monkeys in India and such are cute and they can be well-trained, but I do not think there should be trained monkeys in USA, little or not, as monkeys are not animals naturally from here. So those are two different cultures/ environments.
This story is monkey business! And lol @ colonel artist's ape dilemma story!
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31. At 07:42am on 24 Oct 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
The last time I checked, a monkey was not a rodent; however, I feel sure GWB was at home with TB as a dinner companion.
I know very well that a monkey is a primate. I was referring to my previous statement about people bringing their family pets into places where they don't belong.
32. At 4:28pm on 24 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
It was not as if this monkey was shoping or paying bills or doing other errands which this woman cannot do because of her phobia, the monkey is just a campanion, so she could master different challanges she faces in her every day life..Like the wife of Rama, this woman was a prison of her phobia, the monkey was her rescuer, the hanuman..This is a 21st century reality of the hindu mytholofical story..
You are missing the actual point of law that the judge ruled on. The service animal must perform a physical task like helping her shop by putting items into a trolley or cart, fetching her mail, bringing her a pair of eyeglasses, turning the lights on or off. The law was clear. Neither the monkey, nor its owner, met the strict criteria for authorizing her pet to be certified as a service animal.
And when you eat at the resturant, you go there to eat, not to look at the people who sit around you, its a public place, not your or anyone's private space.
Restaurants may be places where the public gathers, but they are privately owned. So the owner would be well within his rights not to let a monkey, or any other animals into his privately owned premises. I remember when, before the laws were changed to accommodate service animals, blind people couldn't bring their dogs in either. The state legislatures had to write new laws forcing the owners of restaurants and shops to allow guide dogs on the premises. And the laws, as I said, are very strict as to what constitutes a service animal. It doesn't matter to the law that the animal gives her emotional support to help her live day to day in a physical sense, because it does not perform a specific set of manual tasks. If she doesn't like it, she needs to get her state legislature to change the law.
In any case, you may be happy to eat in a place where a monkey is throwing its feces around, but that would disgust most patrons and violate just about every health code there is. We have laws in this country that calculate, down to the number of rodent hairs and insect droppings allowed per item of food by weight - based on studies done by health departments - so humans don't become ill or infected with the kind of parasites common in Third World countries.
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You are missing the actual point of law that the judge ruled on. The service animal must perform a physical task like helping her shop by putting items into a trolley or cart, fetching her mail, bringing her a pair of eyeglasses, turning the lights on or off. The law was clear. Neither the monkey, nor its owner, met the strict criteria for authorizing her pet to be certified as a service animal.
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The judge should have kwoown or if he didnt know, should have done some research before he went to the court that day, To compare physical disability with psychological diablity like phobia is to compare apples with oranges.. Ever seen monkeys throwing feces at each other in their natural habitat? or do you think that thats what monkeys do? You tell me to learn about americans, why dont you first learn more about ways of lives of the monkeys. People who take monkeys or small children to public places are prepared for such things.Monkey is not a dog that provides service to human beings, its a companion..
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ColonelArtist and #37.
I have to say you struck a chord.
Back in the 1970s I was in UK Armed Forces: We did a stint in Kenya (Africa) and Borneo (Asia) and saw 'monkeys' of all sorts in both places whilst training - - they were incredibly clean, tidy animals and over months in both places I never once saw one of those creatures throw faeces around at all!
Now I come to think of it, they were the animals we most admired as they had the good sense to stay well clear if us!
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A hobo with a parrot on his shoulder goes into a bar and and walks up to the bartender to order a drink. The bartender says "Get that piece of garbage out of here, you know we don't allow that kind of thing around this place." To which the hobo says "That's not a piece of garbage, that's my parrot." To which the bartender says "I was talking to the parrot."
Couldn't help it.
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"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than other animals.'
"Animal Farm" by George Orwell
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#36. Gavrielle_LaPoste: "I know very well that a monkey is a primate. I was referring to my previous statement about people bringing their family pets into places where they don't belong."
Apparently you have a very sheltered life; there are many countries which allow animals into restaurants. With your French-sounding nom du blog I would have thought that you might have visited Paris and the capital of fine cuisine. Patrons and their customers there are happy to have dogs in their establishments. What can a dog bring in that a human cannot? They don't get the 'flu which can be passed on to other diners, their footpads are far smaller than a man's foot print and thus cannot track in the detritus from outside. What are the reasons that dogs cannot be accommodated? Here in California there is an ordinance which bars dogs from outdoor Farmers' Markets, one of the more stupid pieces of legislation devised. If service animals are permitted, why not others? The American obsession with hygiene has been taken far too far.
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Americans or the europeans dont have a genes in them which appreciate certain animals, and one such animal is the monkey..Thats why when G-d was distributing monkeys, He chose Africa and then Asia. because monkeys were the foundation on which humans were later evolved..And compared to monkeys, humans are civilized and being civilized means to respect and integrate those who are not as civilized. And the first humans lived side by side with the monkeys in africa..as both humans and monkeys were mutually depended on each other.. If monkeys were created in america or europe, the humans over there would have by now, killed them calling them uncivilized and barbarians..
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#42. colonelartist: "Thats why when G-d was distributing monkeys, He chose Africa and then Asia."
I guess he/she/it had second thoughts about the wisdom of those earlier actions since it is generally considered that simians were the source of AIDS. Or was it a preconceived idea - infect all humans with a deadly disease?
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All of this conversation makes me think of Planet of the Apes, with Charlton Heston. Yeah, the movie where the apes speak English and treat all humans like animals, putting collars on them and locking them up in cages. Good movie.
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colonoscopy;
"And the first humans lived side by side with the monkeys in africa..as both humans and monkeys were mutually depended on each other."
You speak so authoritatively I feel you must have had first hand experience. What what it like then? Like PMQT in the British House of Commons? "Hooh! Hooh! Hooh! Hooh!" "I refer my right honorable friend to the reply I gave some moments ago." "BRR%^$*($@#*^"
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guess he/she/it had second thoughts about the wisdom of those earlier actions since it is generally considered that simians were the source of AIDS. Or was it a preconceived idea - infect all humans with a deadly disease?
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From HIV to swine flue viruses, they are all carried by animals and birds..
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You speak so authoritatively I feel you must have had first hand experience.
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Unlike majority, which stops their ancestoral linkage after a few generations, I dont stop there, I take it all the way back to my monkey ancestors..Without those monkeys, the early human beings would never have had the opportunity to develop and evolve as human beings..Who knows the reason early humans started to migrate to other places because they simply couldnt compete with monkeys about food and places of shelters..
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46. colonelartist wrote:
"From HIV to swine flue viruses, they are all carried by animals and birds.."
Eureka! I've got the solution to all our problems ..... yes, we kill all the animals and birds!
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47 colonel
"Unlike majority, which stops their ancestoral linkage after a few generations, I dont stop there, I take it all the way back to my monkey ancestors..Without those monkeys, the early human beings would never have had the opportunity to develop and evolve as human beings..Who knows the reason early humans started to migrate to other places because they simply couldnt compete with monkeys about food and places of shelters.."
While I'm glad you are not a creationist (ie you seem to accept that humans have evolved), you do have some misunderstandings about the nature of evolution.
You do not have monkey ancestors. Humans and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor ..... monkeys may not have evolved as far, but neither have they remained constant.
I believe there is a film coming about the Skopes Monkey trial. Fascinating lunacy ... and it still has voice today.
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RomeStu (#49), a film about the Scopes trial has already been made: Inherit the Wind
This is such a good film I don't know why we need another, but lots of other classics have been remade.
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48 RomeStu
Well, that's a new twist on Shakespeare certainly. It used to be that "first we'll kill all the lawyers ..."
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#46. colonelartist: "From HIV to swine flue viruses, they are all carried by animals and birds.."
HIV is the acronym for Human Immunodeficiency Virus, not identical to SIV - Simian Immunodeficiency Virus. It is only theoretical that HIV derived from SIV.
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hey call this ldy crazy but most would do what they can for a pet.
I think her trying to take it with her is fine. People take their dogs every where.
She has a monkey. an animal with so9me reasoning that is probably better than many here.
She is looking after it. what ever the bull she gives the judge, (which may be true judges don't seem to get out enough (well golfing doesn't count).
Since some may be saying no to her after the face ripping incident she may have tried the service animal option.
So now she will hve to leave it behind and it may end up p getting depressed and dying. It has happened to primate pets.
so Thanks MArk for the interesting story. (DC Do you really miss JW? HOW?) but to those that knock the lady remember she probably doesn't like coming home to find her intelligent pet has got bored .
In which case she is doing better for her pet than most do for their kids.
25 mentions the LAW in america "must provide physical function"
Can we also restrict medical coverage to say "physical" problems.
should we prescribe only to patients with "physical" problems.
No Prozac for all those americans.
Where is the physical issue?
Are you saying that people with mental issues have less rights than those with physical issues.
This refers to the other posting by mark.
america's inability to look at their rules and apply them equally rather than just from the point of view of the person making the rules up.
Mental issues are off the radar so don't include them and stay true to a totally rediculous idea because it was concieved in ignorance and changing that is too much effort.
Mental people deserve their treatment.
you know One agoraphobic. not them all. mental issues are not so easy to define. especially when you can't afford a doctor.and they come in differing degrees.
This is maybe a judge getting it right. but the lady was complaining since the 70 of this condition.
People have been ignored by doctors before.
but never knock the system.
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"The standard treatment for an agoraphobic with panic disorder in the US is a combination of desensitization therapy and medication to prevent the panic attack."
But we cannot try a pet to see if that helps.
You seem fairly convinced you have all the facts and know it all.
How the hell do you know that it does not help.
Panic attacks can be Very debilitating. If the pet helps then so be it.
Maybe a dog would have been easier to deal with, but from what you write no animal would have been acceptable.
Who the hell are you. A doctor of some note I presume.
some sort of expert on others mental issues?
Pets can't help calm people
So stick em with drugs and put them in a dep tank.
Wow.
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41 well said DC
la la land
"Overcoming phobias through the use of an untrained animal of any species is not considered a physical or psychological necessity."
Absolute Bull.
go do more research.
There are plenty of docs recommending "getting a pet" from the pound.
For depression and anxiety.
Your ignorance is not shared by the whole of the medical community.
31 DC I don't know about you but I'd rather sit down to dinner with a real rodent than that animal hating ignorant poster .
I bet it's perfume or aftershave would send me out of the restaurant before the monkey.
La la. I ate in a restaurant with a republican in it as well once. Didn't make me sick.
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35 Maybe not north america, but the america's do have some monkeys. the Amazon is chock full of the dirty buggers. that is why no one goes there. Too much monkey crap being thrown around.
the service dogs I have seen never clean their paws in the sink. They do not sneeze into their elbows. they do not. put the chicken in a separate place from the beef(oh by the way maybe you food provider didn't clean their hands after that nasty episode in the john after that chilli last night either).
Saying service dogs have been trained for hygiene or going anywhere near that is bull.
"If she doesn't like it, she needs to get her state legislature to change the law."
Why don't people like you just be a little more interesting.
Typical maerican responce.
"if you don't like it.."
guess what la la. I got o the state legislature they say"where is your lobby group"
" you don't have one then get lost"
Pathetic america acceptance of a bad law.
Lala people can . she tried. it cost her (I bet.)she lost.
but to sy the law is tha law and it is an ass so I will resoect it while claiming to be a free thinking american.
lol
Mark this is what your other post seems to be talking about.
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35 Maybe not north america, but the america's do have some monkeys. the Amazon is chock full of the dirty buggers. that is why no one goes there. Too much monkey crap being thrown around.
the service dogs I have seen never clean their paws in the sink. They do not sneeze into their elbows. they do not. put the chicken in a separate place from the beef(oh by the way maybe you food provider didn't clean their hands after that nasty episode in the john after that chilli last night either).
Saying service dogs have been trained for hygiene or going anywhere near that is bull.
"If she doesn't like it, she needs to get her state legislature to change the law."
Why don't people like you just be a little more interesting.
Typical maerican responce.
"if you don't like it.."
guess what la la. I got o the state legislature they say"where is your lobby group"
" you don't have one then get lost"
Pathetic america acceptance of a bad law.
Lala people can . she tried. it cost her (I bet.)she lost.
but to sy the law is tha law and it is an ass so I will resoect it while claiming to be a free thinking american.
lol
Mark this is what your other post seems to be talking about.
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Either you are with us or with the monkeys, the uncivilized, which threaten the civilization which is beacon of light etc etc etc...No wonder it was so easy for bush to unite people behind him with his either or, speech..Monkeys for you information, are not inferior to humans, they are different..You cannot survive in their natural habitat and they cannot survive in yours, this judge's judgment proves this point that there was a reason why G-d didnt allot monkeys to north america, especially the part which is usa.
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While I'm glad you are not a creationist (ie you seem to accept that humans have evolved), you do have some misunderstandings about the nature of evolution.
You do not have monkey ancestors. Humans and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor ..... monkeys may not have evolved as far, but neither have they remained constant.
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No muslim is a creationist, we learnt about evolution 1500 yrs ago..not a hundred year ago, thats why we are very comfortable with evolution..
I dont think anyone has the right to doubt my ancestoral linage, I evolved from the monkeys via the common ancestor...
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58 colonel
"I evolved from the monkeys via the common ancestor..."
At the risk of being pedantic, you do have a slight misunderstanding of evolution. Monkeys and Humans exist now. They both evolved from a common ancestor which was neither a monkey as we know it today, nor a human.
By the way, I was unaware that Muslims believe in evolution and are not creationist. I am aware that Arab science was streets ahead of Europe in the Middle Ages, but this is new to me.
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At the risk of being pedantic, you do have a slight misunderstanding of evolution. Monkeys and Humans exist now. They both evolved from a common ancestor which was neither a monkey as we know it today, nor a human.
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You are trying to suggest that the common ancestor had one son who was the monkey and the other one human? If this true, then it becomes more clear that both these creatures were born in africa, if G-d forbids, it had happened in usa, the human brother would have killed the monkey brother, and we wouldnt have monkeys today..I insist on my evolution from the monkeys...when I look at my ancestors, I appreciate the rest of ancestors who evoloved and adjusted to every age in history..Change, yes, they could. Adam in islam is the guy who laid the foundation of present humans and their way of lives, not physically but mentally..He was the prophet, the first one, and in order to be a prophet, he has to have audiance. He didnt come to lecture, the animals and the envirnoment.Some times mere common sense is enough to decode the so called complicated things.
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colonel
"You are trying to suggest that the common ancestor had one son who was the monkey and the other one human?"
No I'm not.
And by ancestor I'm not talking about my great-grandmother ..... we're talking about 10s of 1000s of years.
"I insist on my evolution from the monkeys.."
I am forced to concede - your own rational proves your statement.
Goodnight
Did Adam evolve from a monkey, or just you?
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I only know myself. I cannot know any other.
I am the first, I am the last.And I am the wise.
Adam was the first human to recognize and preach to other humans that they have now evolved into a new species..the human, and they dont need to consider themselves as the same race or species as the monkeys..they have different language, different taste, they communicate differently. Of all the people present in his group, Eve understood him well, and so they decided to get married or whatever ritual they had to mark that she belonged to him. I cannot give you a direct answer to your question about adam, the chruch of england will mind.
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RomeStu
See the other string - have you not heard the saying "Never argue with a drunk, a fool, or the village idiot"?
Another way of saying it is "Please don't feed the trolls."
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lol colonel. You grasp evolution as well as most americans.
There is some common ground for you.
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lol colonel. You grasp evolution as well as most americans.
There is some common ground for you.
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Those who watch monkeys learn things from them. I dont think americans by their weight and their attitude towards monkeys can grasp evolution...otherwise this judge would not have banned this monkey from being the woman's saviour.
http://multimedia.asiaone.com/Multimedia/News/Story/A1Multimedia20090731-7440.html
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