A Ruscha for the situation room?
What paintings do the Obamas hang on the walls of the White House? I would have guessed large, bold, clean abstracts, with a nod maybe to someone like Ellis Wilson.
But I am indebted to Sunlen Miller's blog to learn the rather startling truth.
Eleven of the 33 paintings in the part of the White House that the Obamas call home are 19th Century paintings of Native American Indian life on the plains. George Catlin's work has titles like "Buffalo Chase with Accidents" and "Ball-Play Dance, Choctaw".
His portraits pack a punch, but the paintings of frontiersman plains the Obamas seem to have chosen leave me cold.
Catlin apparently admired Native American culture and felt he was recording a great culture on the edge of destruction, so perhaps they are making a political point. But Catlin was a controversial character.
The second-most favoured artist, with four paintings is a much better choice. William H Johnson was known for his portrayal of Harlem life, with bright stick-like figures, although to my mind his Van Gogh-like paintings are a hundred times more powerful.
Don't worry, I will abandon art criticism and go back to politics in a minute.
The Obamas have one work by pop artist Edward Ruscha on display, but surely it should hang not at their home, but in the situation room, where the President has been holding a series of meetings to discuss the future of his Afghanistan and Pakistan policy.
The work they have is entitled "I think I'll...". On a red-and-pink canvas are the words: "Maybe...Yes..." "wait a minute!", "on second thought", and "maybe... no..."
But I really hope they are saving up their cents for his 1979 work to put in that space. It's called "It's OK - Everything's OK".
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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The Obama's artistic preferences and the decor of the White House are consistent with those of former U.S. Presidents and reflect not only what they like best, but who we are.
Former Presidents Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan shared loved US Western motiffs and Americana, the fact that the Obama's included Harlem themes reflects a part of our culture that has been neglected, but as deserving as all others to be displayed in the White House.
Considering the barrage of criticism and opposition to everything he does or says, I suspect President Obama also needs inspirational themes to lift his spirits and maintain his resolve...
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Regarding the painting "I think I'll ....."
Obviously Obama's supporters will attribute it to his desire to see all sides of a situation rather than make a knee-jerk reaction.
And equally obviously his detractors will see it as evidence of procrastination and indecisiveness.
Can we have some meat in our diet please Mark
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There's this great portrait of the first Hawaian king...
And the last Hawaian Queen.
As well as the one of pres. Suharto.
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Mr. Mardell, you are making the same fatal mistake your predecessor made. The White House is not meant to be an art gallery for European art and its American counterparts that will serve merely as a pleasing decoration or exhibition space for the most skilled artists. We have countless museums for that, the National Gallery, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, etc. The paintings in the White House like all of the other historical objects is meant to depict the American experience and ONLY the American experience. And there is no more quintessentially American subject than those President Obama and his advisors chose, he hit a bullseye on this one.
The opportunity to live and work in the United States, especially as a journalist is an opportunity to learn about a unique culture with a unique history, its importance to the development and current situation of the world cannot be overestimated. That cannot be accomplished by simply observing it superficially, out of historical context, or by using a European yardstick to measure it. Those paradigms don't apply here. The White House is not Buckingham Palace, not the Elysee Palace, it is not meant to be and it must not be.
Why not take a trip white water rafting down the Colorado, drive Pikes Peak or hike in the Rockies. Camp out in Yellowstone park or Yosemite. Get an idea of the enormity of the challenge of conquering the land that was to become America with what was available more then a century ago, the unlikelihood that America would ever come to exist, and the strengths that the people who made it happen had and you will begin to get some idea of why America is such a different place from any other. You would do well to read more American history as well and some American literature like Twain to get a picture of contemporary American life in centuries past.
Perhaps what should appropriately hang in the Situation Room is not another Ruscha painting but a Rorschach ink blot.
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I'm all for this one. Maybe the Prado would lend it out, if only for the situation room.
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Marcus -- I'm with you all the way on the Mark Twain. Hey, have you read this one lately. Good stuff. Very on topic re: Afghanistan.
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To Marcus
I agree with everything you say in Post 4.
As you well know and even I do from my limited experience the United States is a really huge country in both size and variety. Standing on the waterfront in New Orleans or overlooking the Pacific Ocean from Seattle, Washington D.C. could be a continent away and even what the President has on his walls of no interest at all. By the same token Europe could be on another planet, and probable is to many Americans.
However I would suggest that Mark Mardell, after several years based in Brussels, is fascinated by the great differences between European and American political life. But I would not like to give the impression I am putting words into his mouth.
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ref# 4 MarcusAureliusII.
Well said. The White House and Washington DC exist for a purpose - not merely to house rich elitists who believe they are entitled to the very best by dint of birth.
The White House, or The People's House, is only in part a home. Inside the Obama's private quarters the art may reflect some modern European fantasy of what a "cool" President ought to surround himself with, though I doubt it. Bold, clean, soulless abstracts without a hint of humanity don't really seem like Michelle's style.
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Whoops! Sorry, I was rushing to leave and didn't have time to read the complete articles. The art is indeed for their private quarters and not just the public business areas they control. Other than that, my point still stands and I was right. They aren't European and do not have European tastes.
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While art is always subjective to the individual taste, I must confess that I would find Native American artists, to offer much better artwork of Native culture.
There are top-notch artists today, who are rendering the past in admirable creations, that are far better artists.
Perhaps it is somewhat commendable though, that Native America receives some attention, in the WH. Native Americans were treated far worse than slaves ever were, by Europeans, and if you look into it, you will find things going on today, in relations between the various tribes and the US Government, that mistreat Native Americans, far worse than Black Americans.
Native Americans are the most abused minority, in the US, bar none.
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Not sure how The Prince & the Pauper, The Tramp Abroad, A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur’s Court or Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc will aid anyone’s understanding of the American psyche historically and these make up about half of Mark Twain’s major works! I would have thought Steinbeck would have been better, despite Steinbeck never going anywhere near any field hands (Of Mice and Men).
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6, chronophobe -
Does it appear to you that a more rational member of the MAII team is on duty this morning? After reading your comment, I went back up and read his (usually I scroll past them). I think they should give him more shifts and fire the rest of the team.
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"But I really hope they are saving up their cents for his 1979 work to put in that space. It's called "It's OK - Everything's OK"."
These works are borrowed from the public collection:
Ruscha at White House
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#4 & #8
Once again - thanks for good comments.
#4 Excellent post. Glad you've made it through the "moderators" (Not the BBC ones!) without being vilified for once! I might not always agree with you, but I appreciate you candor.
By the way, I've done the Pikes Peak, the Badlands, etc. you just can't comprehend what must have gone through the minds of those who first traveled it - those other than Native Indian, of course. What a stupendous country it is!
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That link to Yahoo news didn't work too well, but it reported that the Ruscha in question was borrowed from the National Gallery.
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But it's still about Washington - even Camp David would be more illuminating.
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4. At 3:12pm on 08 Oct 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
The opportunity to live and work in the United States, especially as a journalist is an opportunity to learn about a unique culture with a unique history, its importance to the development and current situation of the world cannot be overestimated. That cannot be accomplished by simply observing it superficially, out of historical context, or by using a European yardstick to measure it. Those paradigms don't apply here. The White House is not Buckingham Palace, not the Elysee Palace, it is not meant to be and it must not be."
But it is nonetheless. The President of the US was caste to replacve the British monarchy and still retains many of the features.
Who can forget the ridiculous debate over what style of carpet and seal the new president would select?
"Why not take a trip white water rafting down the Colorado, drive Pikes Peak or hike in the Rockies. Camp out in Yellowstone park or Yosemite. Get an idea of the enormity of the challenge of conquering the land that was to become America with what was available more then a century ago, the unlikelihood that America would ever come to exist, and the strengths that the people who made it happen had and you will begin to get some idea of why America is such a different place from any other. You would do well to read more American history as well and some American literature like Twain to get a picture of contemporary American life in centuries past. "
Or spend some time in a Baltimore slum and try going on about the land of opportunity to these people.
It is true US and Canadian wild areas are extremely beautifull (as are the national parks of Chile and Argentina). But they are not where the actual people live.
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The original natives in North America were the numerous Native American tribes and they deserve far more credit for their ways in the world, both spiritual and environmental. Today, the Native Americans have reserves alotted by the govt. where they are allowed to continue their traditions and culture. Sure, it isn't perfect, but it is something. Even peyote, which is banned everywhere else in USA, is used by these tribes as needed and without trouble from the govt. Unless other cultures are invited, the Native Americans keep to themselves and most resevoirs are off-limits to other peoples and cultures.
Americans know that some of the things our European ancestors did in the past to the Native Americans was wrong. But we cannot change the past. And we are not our ancestors, we of a new generation. What we can do is move on and respect the Native Americans' culture today, as there are still some that carry their traditions on. What they want more than anything is their own space.
There was an incident I can recall as a child. I remember being in Arizona, at a festival near a Native American reserve. We had some family that lived around there, including a relative who was friends with some of the Native Americans. It was friendly during the daytime but in the evening, there was some sort of a scuffle between two peoples that did not agree with each other. People were beginning to fight and turn violent, when it turned nightfall. I have a sister-in-law who has bright blonde hair and some were making racial slurs at her to get out of there. We left right away.
I don't mess with the Native Americans and I would probably never go on a reserve, unless I knew the people were open to others coming in. Otherwise, you don't push your luck.
Whatever part of the country you go in, Mark, you will find different kinds of people. I would not say any are really the same. Different points of view, morals, culture, ect. City people are very different from country people, as well.
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ref #1
Is is the Obama's residence at least untill Jan 20 2011. Let them put what ever art they find pleasing.
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ref #19
Sorry 2013
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#17. Simon21: "Who can forget the ridiculous debate over what style of carpet and seal the new president would select?"
I read the news as much as anyone but never heard of a "debate" about carpeting. As for the Seal, there's just one, it's the same for every President, so there could hardly be a discussion about it!
#18. Illinoisan: "Today, the Native Americans have reserves alotted by the govt. where they are allowed to continue their traditions and culture."
Mark should come to Riverside County where a number of Indian Tribes (as they call themselves) run casinos and entertainment on the scale of Las Vegas. Drive from Los Angeles to Palm Springs and they cannot be missed. Their traditions and culture have certainly moved with the times!
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David_Cunard wrote:
#17. Simon21: "Who can forget the ridiculous debate over what style of carpet and seal the new president would select?"
I read the news as much as anyone but never heard of a "debate" about carpeting. As for the Seal, there's just one, it's the same for every President, so there could hardly be a discussion about it!
#18. Illinoisan: "Today, the Native Americans have reserves alotted by the govt. where they are allowed to continue their traditions and culture."
Mark should come to Riverside County where a number of Indian Tribes (as they call themselves) run casinos and entertainment on the scale of Las Vegas. Drive from Los Angeles to Palm Springs and they cannot be missed. Their traditions and culture have certainly moved with the times!
(Why depress Mark so quickly, these casinos are feeling the efects of the economy just like everyone else. BTW I go to Las Vegas every year on business the ones in California nor the mega ones in CT are on the same scale as Vegas)
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Gavrielle LaPoste;
"Inside the Obama's private quarters the art may reflect some modern European fantasy of what a "cool" President ought to surround himself with, though I doubt it."
I doubt it too. Barack Obama is 100% American through and through, there isn't one scintilla of European in him. President Obama is as American as baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet. In fact since the government bail out of GM, HE IS Chevrolet.
RickMcDaniel
"Native Americans were treated far worse than slaves ever were, by Europeans,"
That is an outrageous lie. You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. If you don't beleive it, ask people in the African American community if they think their ancestors who were slaves would have traded places and life situations with Native American. I don't think you would get even one person to answer no.
Simple Simon;
"The White House is not Buckingham Palace, not the Elysee Palace, it is not meant to be and it must not be."
"But it is nonetheless. The President of the US was caste to replacve the British monarchy and still retains many of the features."
Rubish. If the purpose of the White House was to be an opulent monument showcasing America's wealth, we could have built a palace half the size of England and ten times as rich. That is not who we are.
"But they [national parks] are not where the actual people live."
That's why we made them national parks, so that no one could live there and spoil their pristine nature. There are many places Americans can and do live that are equally beautiful. I'm sure a visit to some of the places you call "housing estates" in cities of the UK would be as grim as any trip to Baltimore or anywhere else in America. It's no secret we have poverty in the US. Socialism is not the way out. For proof, just look at North Korea, North Vietnam, and North England.
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Re post 4.
Marcus,you are so blinkered and nationalistic.
All the great discoveries in all areas, including land exploration, cannot be claimed by people within certain man-made land bounderies, or the narrow defination of race,but by the human spirit of all people, everywhere.
America's finest hour was when she asked 'Give me your downtrodden and huddled masses,' and then welcomed the oppressed.
Where is that spirit now?
The US has been a phoenominal success, but the very thing that made you that way has gone.The barriers are up, with the in-mates smug and fat, not wanting their way of life threatened...
Just look at yourself if you want evidence.
The poor of India and China have that hunger and drive to succeed.They will create their new America where they are...They are willing to work just like the US did in the past, but not anymore..
I love the US, but you are not what you once were.
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23. At 9:05pm on 08 Oct 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Gavrielle LaPoste;
"Inside the Obama's private quarters the art may reflect some modern European fantasy of what a "cool" President ought to surround himself with, though I doubt it."
I doubt it too. Barack Obama is 100% American through and through, there isn't one scintilla of European in him. President Obama is as American as baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet. In fact since the government bail out of GM, HE IS Chevrolet."
Odd comment, has anyone, except the far-right loonies who get so much attention in the US, suggested otherwise?
RickMcDaniel
"Native Americans were treated far worse than slaves ever were, by Europeans,"
That is an outrageous lie. You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. If you don't beleive it, ask people in the African American community if they think their ancestors who were slaves would have traded places and life situations with Native American. I don't think you would get even one person to answer no."
You might ask a native American, ops I forgot the Marcus' don't talk to native Americans.
I think a number of black Americans would say no to becoming victims of genocide.
And let us not forget native Americans were virtually treated as slaves until well into the twentieth centry with almost no control over their own lives.
You can't handle the truth better not get into the debate
" Simon;
"The White House is not Buckingham Palace, not the Elysee Palace, it is not meant to be and it must not be."
"But it is nonetheless. The President of the US was caste to replacve the British monarchy and still retains many of the features."
Rubish. If the purpose of the White House was to be an opulent monument showcasing America's wealth, we could have built a palace half the size of England and ten times as rich. That is not who we are."
Garbage have you been to Buckingham palace? Answer no. Showcase of the nation's wealth? What does that even mean?
The Whitehouse is the presidential palace end of story. Compared to 10 Downing street it is incredibly opulent (how much did they spend on the personal cinema again with its hand made seats etc).
"But they [national parks] are not where the actual people live."
"That's why we made them national parks, so that no one could live there and spoil their pristine nature."
Nature dose not belong to the US.
" There are many places Americans can and do live that are equally beautiful. I'm sure a visit to some of the places you call "housing estates" in cities of the UK would be as grim as any trip to Baltimore or anywhere else in America."
No far less guns and mass murder. And for Baltimore also include SF, Chicago in fact practically any city in the US, where US people actually live. In SF you only have to step out of the hotel lobby in the central city area.
The point is a country is its people, not its mountain ranges or parks. As you say parts of North Korea's mountains are stunning - but that is hardly the be all of North Korea.
Most countries have attractive areas, but its the people that count, not the voids.
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22. At 8:52pm on 08 Oct 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
David_Cunard wrote:
#17. Simon21: "Who can forget the ridiculous debate over what style of carpet and seal the new president would select?"
I read the news as much as anyone but never heard of a "debate" about carpeting. As for the Seal, there's just one, it's the same for every President, so there could hardly be a discussion about it!"
Well I suggest you read a lot more. Apparently every (new) president commissions a new carpet with his (ghastly the eagle looks like it is performing tricks - badly) seal on it. It is featured on nearly every shot of the Oval Office, not hard to see.
Why only god knows, typical of the US to try and invent some sort of ridiculous tradition.
#18. Illinoisan: "Today, the Native Americans have reserves alotted by the govt. where they are allowed to continue their traditions and culture."
Mark should come to Riverside County where a number of Indian Tribes (as they call themselves) run casinos and entertainment on the scale of Las Vegas. Drive from Los Angeles to Palm Springs and they cannot be missed. Their traditions and culture have certainly moved with the times!"
And they should not be allowed to define their own culture? This is because of what they are the wrong colour? In fact the proceedings from these clubs go to sustain a culture white Americans were so keen to utterly destroy.
But isn't it amusing. For centuries native Americans are told, usually accompanied with violence, that the white man's way is the only way. Then when they start doing things the white man's way, they are then abused for not being native American enough.
Of course the people telling them about their own culture would not go within 5 miles of a native American settlement.
"(Why depress Mark so quickly, these casinos are feeling the efects of the economy just like everyone else. BTW I go to Las Vegas every year on business the ones in California nor the mega ones in CT are on the same scale as Vegas)"
And why should they not be on the same scale? Because native Americans are too stupid to run casinos or too impertinent? They put nice white Americans out of jobs?
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17. At 6:51pm on 08 Oct 2009, Simon21 wrote:
It is true US and Canadian wild areas are extremely beautifull (as are the national parks of Chile and Argentina). But they are not where the actual people live.
Not technically they don't. But you'll find that there are plenty of small towns and cities situated right around them where average Americans live and work. And if you go to Maine, specifically Bar Harbor where Mount Desert Isle is part of Acadia National Park, you can spend time in a working class fishing town that's pretty much inside one. It's one of the places I always take my European friends when they come to visit for a few days or a couple of weeks. A very beautiful and charming average, lower/middle class American town, especially after the tourists leave and the big hotels close up for the winter.
10. At 4:39pm on 08 Oct 2009, RickMcDaniel wrote:
Perhaps it is somewhat commendable though, that Native America receives some attention, in the WH. Native Americans were treated far worse than slaves ever were, by Europeans, and if you look into it, you will find things going on today, in relations between the various tribes and the US Government, that mistreat Native Americans, far worse than Black Americans.
"Perhaps it is somewhat commendable"? Wow, look down your nose much, Rick?
And I'm not sure you can say that shoving Africans onto boats, where they died by the millions in the greatest holocaust the world has ever known (20-50 million people), and shipping them thousands of miles from home gets Europeans and those of European ancestry (which would be ALL white Americans) off the hook. Remember, we are you. There's no escaping that fact, no matter how much Europe distances itself from America.
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Given the prospects for the "future of his Afghanistan and Pakistan policy" Imperialist-in-Chief Obama might more appropriately hang one of Anselm Kiefer's bleak paintings on his wall...
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The US is $1.4tn in debt and Mark wants to talk about art? Who really cares? The Obama's can hang "Dogs Playing Poker" for all I care.
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uke of wails;
"All the great discoveries in all areas, including land exploration, cannot be claimed by people within certain man-made land bounderies, or the narrow defination of race,but by the human spirit of all people, everywhere."
The problem is that in most other places the human spirit is crushed by the overbearing power of government. Do you deny that for example in the EU, the government will tell you whether or not you can sell a banana based on whether or not it meets their criteria for curvature? Why do you think it took them 400 pages to write a Constitution when the greatest country in history penned and signed its Constitution on just four sheets of paper?
China and India will never equal America, not as economies and not in the far more important ways that count most. And if you want to see America's perpetual process of self renewal in action, just go to any of the countless swearing in ceremonies of new American citizens who came from all over the world. They happen all the time all over the country. Strength through diversity unmatched anywhere else, a constant infusion of new blood, new energy that enters the American melting pot. Lately it has more of a Latin and Asiatic flavor than it used to but it is every bit as potent.
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"The Whitehouse is the presidential palace end of story. Compared to 10 Downing street it is incredibly opulent ...."
There is no comparison because the Prime Minister is not Head of State. The White House is not a "palace" in any sense. It is a southern mansion, and rather modest by international standards. It pales in comparison to Buckingham Palace, not to mention all the other properties controlled by the Royal Family.
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27. At 9:45pm on 08 Oct 2009, Gavrielle_LaPoste wrote:
17. At 6:51pm on 08 Oct 2009, Simon21 wrote:
It is true US and Canadian wild areas are extremely beautifull (as are the national parks of Chile and Argentina). But they are not where the actual people live.
Not technically they don't. But you'll find that there are plenty of small towns and cities situated right around them where average Americans live and work. And if you go to Maine, specifically Bar Harbor where Mount Desert Isle is part of Acadia National Park, you can spend time in a working class fishing town that's pretty much inside one. It's one of the places I always take my European friends when they come to visit for a few days or a couple of weeks. A very beautiful and charming average, lower/middle class American town, especially after the tourists leave and the big hotels close up for the winter. "
No doubt. And there are wonderful parts of the Inner Harbour in Sydney which are also breathtaking.
But going to these places does not give you an accurate ntion of the people who inhabit the country.
The Himilayas in Nepal are awe inspiring, Kathmandu also awe inspiring, but in a very different way.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
No velvet Elvis? Shucks.
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30. At 9:59pm on 08 Oct 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
uke of wails;
"All the great discoveries in all areas, including land exploration, cannot be claimed by people within certain man-made land bounderies, or the narrow defination of race,but by the human spirit of all people, everywhere."
The problem is that in most other places the human spirit is crushed by the overbearing power of government. Do you deny that for example in the EU, the government will tell you whether or not you can sell a banana based on whether or not it meets their criteria for curvature? Why do you think it took them 400 pages to write a Constitution when the greatest country in history penned and signed its Constitution on just four sheets of paper?"
Not so. Sweden, the UK, Ireland, France, Germany (not sure about Roumania) are free democracies, much freer in many ways than the US, where government has the power of life and death.
And the US consitution is an outmoded 18th century document. Which is why most countries avoid copying it.
"China and India will never equal America, not as economies and not in the far more important ways that count most."
The fact they are full of chinese and Indian people?
May interest you to know the Chinese and Indians are very good at developing themselves and both have periods (longer than the US) when they astonished the world.
And what they have done once they can do again (to quote a US saying).
"And if you want to see America's perpetual process of self renewal in action, just go to any of the countless swearing in ceremonies of new American citizens who came from all over the world. They happen all the time all over the country. Strength through diversity unmatched anywhere else, a constant infusion of new blood, new energy that enters the American melting pot. Lately it has more of a Latin and Asiatic flavor than it used to but it is every bit as potent."
Go to Australia, Canada and Europe and see exactly the same thing. Immigration takes place all over the world, not just in the US. Of itself it proves nothing.
In the case of the US it is ultimately going to lead to the creation of new latin country. No problem with that.
The US it has to be said will never achieve its potential, or at least is inhibited because it is such a very divided society.
Conformity is not a virtue of itself but as this presidency is making very clear the gult between many Americans is enormous.
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27. At 9:45pm on 08 Oct 2009, Gavrielle_LaPoste wrote:
Perhaps it is somewhat commendable though, that Native America receives some attention, in the WH. Native Americans were treated far worse than slaves ever were, by Europeans, and if you look into it, you will find things going on today, in relations between the various tribes and the US Government, that mistreat Native Americans, far worse than Black Americans.
"Perhaps it is somewhat commendable"? Wow, look down your nose much, Rick?
And I'm not sure you can say that shoving Africans onto boats, where they died by the millions in the greatest holocaust the world has ever known (20-50 million people), and shipping them thousands of miles from home gets Europeans and those of European ancestry (which would be ALL white Americans) off the hook. Remember, we are you. There's no escaping that fact, no matter how much Europe distances itself from America."
True, but no holocaust this was not a form of sacrifice.
The annihlation of the native peoples of the new world has been called possibly the greatest destruction of human life and culture in modern (ie since the renaisance) times. Only now is the sheer scale of that destruction being understood. Areas once recorded as being "empty" or devoid of human life, it is now realised may have supported various cultures and people.
Of course it is idle to put precise figures on this, but the size of the destruction shold not be underestimated.
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#30 Marcus
The problem is that in most other places the human spirit is crushed by the overbearing power of government.
The overbearing US Government crushes the human spirit in other parts of the globe instead! Killing civilians in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan; undermining democracy in Latin America, supporting hideous regimes with appalling human rights &c.
What does the EU do? Tell us that a banana has to have a certain curve to be classified as a banana! I know which Government I would prefer!
I mean, what's the worst thing the EU could do? Bore us to death?!
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Simon21 -
Do you think you could be a bit more careful and not copy and paste the entire thread? This is at least the second time you've done this.
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Who does simon21 think he is, the EU?
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Who cares what Art the President hangs.On that note there are vast museums in this country to see Art and American culture like the Smithsonian or The Henry Ford.But if people are going to talk about native Americans understand the the story is different for different Regions.Many Black and White and Hispanics are also part Native American like myself.And some places did honor their treaties like Michigan with the help of French Canadians who were also fighting to keep their lands in Eastern Michigan.Not all Native Americans were Destroyed.
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Marky, never say never.
Its the work ethic of the people and its government that puts the greatness
into a successful enterprise, from small bussiness to nation building.
Far too many politicians over with you are only out for themselves.
Your kids will not put up or go through what you endured.
Millions of Indian & Chinese would work like hell for a fraction of what your guys would.They are willing and able, just wanting half a chance, being loyal and no trouble.
Your country is in far too much debt to China.
Do not forget the golden rule,
"He who has the gold makes the rules".
I would be less bellicose if I were you.The US needs All ITS friends.
The EU is slowly gathering & gaining direction. It took nearly the whole
world to subjigate Germany. Now that its business is business and is just one of the EU partners,take heed,
He who laughs first laughs least.
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ukwales,
It's time for another poem
'bout money and to whom we owe em.
To speculate about boom and bust
while bankers claim limits are not just
is only compounding the problem.
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#26. Simon21: "David_Cunard: I suggest you read a lot more. Apparently every (new) president commissions a new carpet with his (ghastly the eagle looks like it is performing tricks - badly) seal on it. It is featured on nearly every shot of the Oval Office, not hard to see."
Having Googled "Obama's New Carpet", the only reference I could find was in today's The Huffington Post, the salient paragraph reading:
The president held himself up as an example, saying that he had not yet renovated the Oval Office and was still using George W. Bush's furniture, even noting the stains on the carpet. He urged the banks to show comparable "constraint and responsibility," adding that the nation had undergone a cultural shift.
Now you provide a link implies that there has been a "debate" over it. Perhaps in some UK Red Top rag there was a reference but if so, I haven't seen it. And it wouldn't matter because no-one in America cares what they print.
What's so ghastly about the American Eagle? In design it is no different to Heraldic lions, none of which really look like the king of the jungle.
"Why only god knows, typical of the US to try and invent some sort of ridiculous tradition."
I take it that you are not from or even living in the United States or you wouldn't make such a crass comment. You should check into the refurbishment of 10 and 11 Downing Street for new Prime Ministers and Chancellors of the Exchequer as well as other British officials who live in grace and favour homes.
"Of course the people telling them about their own culture would not go within 5 miles of a native American settlement."
Obviously you have never been to one or you would know that is not the case. Come to Palm Springs and while you're here, visit the reservations and gamble your heart away at Morongo, Agua Caliente, Pechanga, Spa Resort & Casino and others. You'll see what people they attract.
"And why should they not be on the same scale? Because native Americans are too stupid to run casinos or too impertinent? They put nice white Americans out of jobs?"
They are not on the same scale physically and do not boast of being the largest hotel or casino in the world. Las Vegas is unique, now falling on hard times. The Indian owned (not "native American") establishments employ those of all ethnic backgrounds, and they might even employ you if you weren't so cocky about American life. You may be a Columbophile but you sure don't have a clue about it. Stick to what you know and your posts will be all the better for it.
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ukawailee;
"The EU is slowly gathering & gaining direction."
Yes and that direction is down.
Remember this golden rule, money is no longer backed by gold. The US government can print as much as it has to in order to pay off its debts. Faced with a ten trillion dollar debt and a 1.4 trillion dollar deficit this year alone, it had better start printing oceans of it soon. China will learn a lesson in Americanomics. It's inflation or depression. The only other way to pay that money back would be with taxes so crushing they'd break whatever is left of the US economy and take the rest of the world down with it.
BTW, I heard a report last night that there is approximately one trillion dollars of commercial real estate in New York City alone that is in jeopardy of going into default. The worst may not even have hit us yet.
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MAII, you have it wrong. This is the reverse of the Asian crisis of the 90s.
When a country goes into the tank, someone comes along and buys it on the
cheap. We're cheap now.
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Simon21: While you have created a very telling narrative of American history on the issue of Native Americans, I have to say that I disagree with much of what you have said:
1)"Native Americans were treated far worse than slaves ever were, by Europeans,"
-NA's were frequently at war with the US and other indians. Both sides often used comparable equipment because trading always took place in the territories even during conflicts. Both sides played politics and fought for control of their own national territories. Native Americans were treated as free non-Americans making war on American territory which meant that they had to be moved by force if they chose not to become American citizens.
2)"And let us not forget native Americans were virtually treated as slaves until well into the twentieth century with almost no control over their own lives."
They were never treated as slaves by the US. Native peoples may have been corralled onto reserves, but they always had varying forms of native government, and they enjoyed many exemptions to Federal laws and regulations. You must also remember how frequently Native Americans owned slaves themselves.
3)"Of course the people telling them about their own culture would not go within 5 miles of a native American settlement."
What are you talking about? Native peoples had their own traditions and languages that they passed on to the next generations by dancing, singing, and telling stories. Many of those languages went by the wayside because English was more useful. Most of the native languages didn't even have a written form, the Cherokee being the biggest exception. As for Europeans not being hands on, ever heard of David Zeisberger, or John Canfield Ewers; and for the record, George Catlin was a celebrated American artist for the Smithsonian in the 1800s who did in fact live among the western Native American nations for years.
4)"The annihilation of the native peoples of the new world has been called possibly the greatest destruction of human life and culture in modern (i.e. since the renaissance) times."
Maybe by you. It was war, plain, simple, brutal war. And it was peace, complex, enterprising, innovating, peace. Both occurred simultaneously between the US and all the various independent native nations. The greatest annihilation of natives was actually caused by disease, not war, because those people had not developed the antibodies to defend against Eurasian and African diseases, something that was little understood even by the Europeans and Americans who had not yet developed today's medical practices or knowledge of diseases.
Over all, your point is partly made by the outcome of history, but history is ugly and hardly well documented; you have most definitely exaggerated and inflated the things from Native American history that tick you off and glossed over or ignored the parts of history that do not support your argument. Now we can at least say that both sides of history are covered up to a point on this blog between the two of us.
Anyone who is interested in learning more about this part of American history I suggest you go to the Smithsonian or the museum of native American history in Washington, DC. This website also has some interesting links: http://www.native-languages.org/history-books.htm.
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Yes there are vast beatiful spaces outside of D.C., Manhattan and Hollywood. And yes they are populated, although not very densely [Arizona, Colorado, Montana, New Mexico, Washington (state), Wyoming...]
Although I can understand that visiting some of them could pose logistic problems for a former EU correspondent: most of those areas are significantly larger than Belgium.
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ref #43"And why should they not be on the same scale? Because native Americans are too stupid to run casinos or too impertinent? They put nice white Americans out of jobs?"
They are not on the same scale physically and do not boast of being the largest hotel or casino in the world. Las Vegas is unique, now falling on hard times. The Indian owned (not "native American") establishments employ those of all ethnic backgrounds, and they might even employ you if you weren't so cocky about American life. You may be a Columbophile but you sure don't have a clue about it. Stick to what you know and your posts will be all the better for it.
Please stop projecting, I've been two 2or 3 of the casinos on the San diego-LA route and I call on the ones in New England and New York.
This is not a knock on Native Americans I have the same feeling on the Riverboat ones in Indiana.
there are few things depressing as seeing people drooling at slots at 6AM. I can tell you the financial situation at most of the casino is dire
As far as comparisons even though the outside LV and Ataltic City may have a few good restaurants there are not the shows entertainment and culture (good and bad) as in Vegas) it is unique.
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Those pictures should much more interesting. And important.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/10/08/nasa.ice/index.html
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Post 42.
Oh look Guns what he made me do,
criticize the US when it's in a stew.
In the scheme of things it Just Don't Matter,
he's as nutty as a fruit cake and mad as a hatter.
Europe going which way? and gaining in power,
I'll have to retreat to my Ivory tower.
I'll dream of things as they used to be,
a strong US and commonwealth free.
What can I do, What can I say?
The UK's being swallowed come what may.
All this talk of Europe, I can't take much more,
I'll find out where Marcus lives and move Next Door!
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President Obama can now add the Nobel Prize for Peace to the decorations of the White House as a reminder of what pragmatism, vision and integrity can achieve.
No doubt, the warmongering crowd will see this distinguished recognition as another nail in his coffin. Hopefully, the American people will no longer be influenced by the bile they espouse and recognize how fortunate we are to have such a great leader in the White House at such a difficult time in our history.
Do they have warmongering and great deceiver prizes too? I can think of a few good candidates...
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ref #51
saintDominick wrote:
President Obama can now add the Nobel Prize for Peace to the decorations of the White House as a reminder of what pragmatism, vision and integrity can achieve.
No doubt, the warmongering crowd will see this distinguished recognition as another nail in his coffin. Hopefully, the American people will no longer be influenced by the bile they espouse and recognize how fortunate we are to have such a great leader in the White House at such a difficult time in our history.
(The commitee head Thaglag (sp) said it was given for his policy of engagement. Agree or disagree with Obama the peace prize used to be for tangible results. But Obama has not had time to produce any. The nobel peace prize commitee has had one criteria the last 8 years be against Bush policies get the prize. That is why failures like Annan El Baradi and carter got it. And why Al Gore got it for his envuironmental efforts. The prize has become a joke)
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Ref 52, Magic
"Agree or disagree with Obama the peace prize used to be for tangible results. But Obama has not had time to produce any."
Let's see, stopped the use of torture, plans to close the Gitmo prison camps next year, plans to leave Iraq next year, pressured the Zionists to stop their expansionist policies and negotiate a settlement in good faith, stopped the deployment of missiles in Eastern Europe and in so doing gained the support of Russia in pressing Iran to abandon nuclear enrichment and allow IAEA inspections, convinced China's premier to intercede in solving the North Korean threat and the list goes on.
Not a bad record for a US President who has only been in office 9 months. Do you remember where W was at this point in his presidency?
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All: Hello again. Good to see that everyone is in their usual forms.
Obama's taste in art in his living quarters is his business.
His winning the peace prize seems misdirected to me. He just hasn't done that much to deserve it. There would have been nothing wrong with just not awarding it to anyone this year. Perhaps the committee would have done more to advance the cause of peace by saying that to the world: "There just wasn't enough movement for peace in this world in the past year to justify awarding the prize to anyone. Let everyone go back and try harder, and we'll look again next year."
As far as whether or not America is "better" than the other nations on earth, the answer is that that question gets answered anew every day by all of us living here in America, and elsewhere. What did you do today to make where you live a better place? What did your neighbors do? What will you and your neighbors do tomorrow? If you and your neighbors are busy trying to serve God and each other, then where you live is by definition a pretty good place. If on the other hand you and your neighbors are busy trying to figure out how to cheat each other, and lie to each other to save face or gain advantage, or kill or steal from each other, then by definition the place where you live is going to be pretty awful.
Nobody anywhere gets to sit on their behind and prattle about how great they are. Greatness is earned, not bestowed, and it's earned every day.
Regards to all this Friday morning!
Arclight
One thing is for certain: Anyone who thinks they can really project what the future is for a person, a nation, or the planet is pretty delusional. Nonetheless, some general outlines seem to be visible.
The US has just about used up what it acquired technologically and economically through WWII and the Cold War. We have allowed our budget to become so out of balance that we are going to leave our children and grandchildren with a mountain of unmovable debt. Our people are in many ways lazy (waaay too fat for the most part) and are unmotivated to learn. We have wasted opportunity after opportunity because we continue to engage in a self-defeating war of competing ideologies.
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32. At 10:33pm on 08 Oct 2009, Simon21 wrote:
But going to these places does not give you an accurate ntion of the people who inhabit the country.
Indeed it will.
Simon, you seem to be under the same mistaken impression of America that many Europeans are. Especially those who have never been here, nor ventured out from our major cities when visiting. Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, Washington DC, Los Angeles, New York and other major metropolitan areas are actually atypical examples of American life. The vast majority of our population does not live, or work for that matter, in large urban areas. They live in small cities, incorporated villages and rural townships.
Fixating on the cities and the problems within will never give anyone a true picture of the United States. Which is what I believe Marcus was trying to encourage Mark to get. And traveling, especially by car, around the backwaters and byways of America would give him a more comprehensive view of who and what we are so that he can report back to you and his BBC audience. Of course, most people require a destination when they travel, so visiting a national park and meeting the Americans from all walks of life who visit there is a pretty good goal. More than 100 million average Americans from all areas of the country, and all economic classes, visit the national parks every year.
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Self Anointed One;
"Do they have warmongering and great deceiver prizes too? I can think of a few good candidates..."
Yes, they get the image of their faces carved on the side of Mount Rushmore.
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ref #53
Let's see, stopped the use of torture, plans to close the Gitmo prison camps next year( Has not happend yet and no plan where to put them) plans to leave Iraq next year(lets see but it was Bush policies that won the war of liberation, Obama would have run) pressured the Zionists to stop their expansionist policies and negotiate a settlement in good faith(You could call them Israelis and they have not stopped and he failed to get any of the Arab countries to make much delayed overtures to Israel) stopped the deployment of missiles in Eastern Europe and in so doing gained the support of Russia in pressing Iran to abandon nuclear enrichment and allow IAEA inspections(appeased the russians with a legitimate missle sheild and lets see if the Russians help, last weekes Ecomomist stated Putin wanted more concessions) convinced China's premier to intercede in solving the North Korean threat and the list goes on.
Not a bad record for a US President who has only been in office 9 months. Do you remember where W was at this point in his presidency?
(Bus did not go on apology tour, did not snub friends like the U.K and Israel and he met with the Dalia Lama)
I'd say Bush has shown far more wisdom than the community orginizer
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Let me understand.
North Korea has abandoned its effort to creat a nuclear arsenal?
And so did islamic Republic of Uran[ium]?
Afghanistan and Pakistan are no longer safe havens for Terrorist Int.?
China has stopped supporting junta in Burma and a homicidal regime in Sudan and granted autonomy to both Tibet and E. Turkestan?
Russia has stopped supplying Iran with nuclear technology and murdering its indeptendent investigative reporters and human rights activists?
And Mr. Obama has finally met with Dalai-lama?
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just to point out to some but Mark Mardell is not here writing a rough guide to the beauty of america.
He is not a tour guide.
He is here to report on all things but I suspect that the actions of the people are the important feature in his reporting . Not the actions of tectonic plates.
Not the Action of water falling... Unless it is some how connected.
Arclight.
Obama has done plenty, shame the usual suspects have been so bull headed.
By that I mean I .
You have slagged off any move by Obama so why would we be surprised that a Obama hater like you would have a problem with it.
I notice you forgot to say you will leave your kids with a mountain of debt and NO resources to make a future as well as poisoned land and water.
With no health care for them when they get sick because of environmental actions. But then you care more about tea parties and being a bigot than any thing else ( Oh yes I said bigot because I have discussed that subject with this soft c arc. before)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
La post america is full of more than those that can afford to get to the national parks these days. the gas is up.
but tell me are they not just tourists.
Are you suggesting that get to know the tourists is your plan for him to understand the country he is in.
How about forgetting the travel log and have a politics and culture blog .
PEOPLE' influence.
Sure go to a national park. see those self selected folk.
or you could go to the opera and see those self selected folk.
Or he could just meet people in their every day lives.
But on Holiday you suggest he gets the best results because tourists are such a good way of finding out what a place is like.
I'm all for more to the US than the belt way. I suggest however that national parks would give a glow that we already got from Justn.
who went native.
Who forgot that the mountains so majestic sometimes get smaller.
(mountain top removal) or so poisoned.
(many of those beautiful streams in the NW that are so mercury laden that eating the fish is even more unhealthy for you)
The forests removed so that bums cold be wiped knowing that that paper came straight from a 1000 years ago in canada courtesy of warehouser or some big logging operation.Were removed as a result of politics and the "human condition" in the USA.
How about a report from a town where the people are all suffering from lead poisoning from the mine tailings.
or the town with feedlot smells that make it unbearable for visitors(OK nasal intolerant bigots eh):)
No ,No ,better stick to the Parks where those with the toys and the gas go.
Now I know you all have probably been watching ken burns little patriot show again but this is a real world.
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Gherky
"You could call them Israelis "
Why it is not the Israelis that carry on so and say " no way" to peace. That is the Zionists.
Don't try to claim that Zionists speaks for all Israelis.
That is like saying america is all Neo CON.
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Post you say Europe distances it's self but you get that the wrong way around.
It was america and is america that is so isolationist.
Always has been .
Not the other way around.
who do you play for?
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Simon, you seem to be under the same mistaken impression of America that many Europeans are. Especially those who have never been here, nor ventured out from our major cities when visiting. Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, Washington DC, Los Angeles, New York and other major metropolitan areas are actually atypical examples of American life. The vast majority of our population does not live, or work for that matter, in large urban areas. They live in small cities, incorporated villages and rural townships.
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To the non americans, whatever happens inside america, or how people live in america is not at all important..We know ameerica through its forgein policies.. and thats the only thing which is important to non-americans..Our relationship with america is confined to what it does outside usa, and its american representatives the president and all those who make forgein policies, who force other governments to work for them. This is what america means to us..
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post54 arclight.
"If you and your neighbor are trying to serve God and each other then where you live is by definition a pretty good place".
That is so refreshingly true.
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#48. MagicKirin: "Please stop projecting, I've been two 2or 3 of the casinos on the San diego-LA route"
You're far too sensitive, my remarks were not directed at you but rather Simon21. Incidentally, the casinos I mentioned are not on the LA - San Diego route but in the Coachella Valley, largely made up of Indian Reservations, and have top notch entertainers, names all Americans would recognise. The in-house shows, for which Las Vegas is famous, are not present of course, but nevertheless, the showrooms attract the big marquee names. (A marquee having a different meaning in British and American use.)
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ukwales has his point
about how things are out of joint
and how much glue will be required
to hire back those who've been fired.
When bankers book gains
they do not complain
but when they go down
it's us they make frown.
I say, let them go under
when they make a blunder.
It's not our fault they lent
money that's twice been spent.
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ref #62
fluffytale wrote:
Gherky
"You could call them Israelis "
Why it is not the Israelis that carry on so and say " no way" to peace. That is the Zionists.
Don't try to claim that Zionists speaks for all Israelis.
(Israelis in a recent poll think that Obama favors the Palestinians that is not just the Israelis who don't weant to give any more than Israel genrously have. Besides with many people including several on thsi blog Zionist is used as a racial term)
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Why it is not the Israelis that carry on so and say " no way" to peace. That is the Zionists.
Don't try to claim that Zionists speaks for all Israelis.
That is like saying america is all Neo CON.
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Although the topic has nothing to do with how obama has decorated his rooms, but, tell us, is the forgein minister of israel a zionist or an israeli, (althouth the term israeli is only to be used for the true tribesmen of israel and not a european.( The real israel that is Jacob would surely be wondering and complaining at europeans being so generously called israelis). The forgein minster of israel, elected by the citizens of israel made a statement in which he said that the conflict will not be solved and people should just live with it. In america, there are some genuine neo cons, who dont hide it and then there are those who do exactly like neo cons but claim that they are not. Back to the blog topic. I think its pathetic to talk about how obama has decorated his rooms, specially after how the media and the leaders used to sneer about saddam's decorated palaces..
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This year Mr. Obama.
Next - Mr. Osama. [if Mr. Osama manages to find him by October 2010]
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69 colonel.
yes that is right
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64. At 3:55pm on 09 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
To the non americans, whatever happens inside america, or how people live in america is not at all important..We know ameerica through its forgein policies.. and thats the only thing which is important to non-americans..Our relationship with america is confined to what it does outside usa, and its american representatives the president and all those who make forgein policies, who force other governments to work for them. This is what america means to us..
If you don't know anything about Americans then you will never understand why America does what it does. And you will never be able to get your points across to Americans in a way they can understand. Because you don't know us, you cannot speak meaningfully to us. And since you don't care to learn about us, you therefore have no right to expect us to learn about you.
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@59 (ft): Point to a post where I have slagged Obama. I don't think I've done that.
I have no children, so I won't be leaving them a mountain of debt.
I haven't talked once about tea parties, I don't think (memory could be flawed, though).
I noticed that I left stuff after my signature (again). That was where I was trying to compose, decided it wasn't worth posting, and THOUGHT I erased. Got myself there...
Having reread it, though, I'll stand by it.
We ARE going to leave our children a mountain of debt. The current health-care discussion centers around whether it will be "deficit-neutral". This is nonsense suitable only for infants. Being deficit-neutral only means that we won't be headed any FURTHER into debt any FASTER. It does NOT mean we won't be headed FURTHER into DEBT.
I don't think the American people are really prepared for what debt retirement is going to look like, but we'd better get prepared pretty soon, or else the folks holding our debt are going to pull the strings tight, and then we will be just marionettes dancing to someone else's tune. All our Constitutional protections will go out the window then...
We HAVE coasted on what our parents have done, and for far too long. We should have been facing the budget music back around 1980 or so, when we really came of age and started operating in this economy. We didn't, though, so our children and grandchildren are going to suffer for it, and suffer mightily.
Despite all this, we can still choose today to do things differently. That's why I said that the greatness of this country, or the UK, or anywhere else is not dependent on what we did in 1941, or 1969, or 1789, or any other time. That greatness depends on what we choose today, and tomorrow, and in the future. Time we stopped sitting on our laurels.
If that's bigotry, then I'm a bigot and proud of it.
Arclight
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If you don't know anything about Americans then you will never understand why America does what it does. And you will never be able to get your points across to Americans in a way they can understand. Because you don't know us, you cannot speak meaningfully to us. And since you don't care to learn about us, you therefore have no right to expect us to learn about you.
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Its not our job to get ours points across to americans in a way they can understand. They mean nothing to us, we have to relate ourselves to your representatives through our representatives..And its your representatives jobs to convey our points to you and your points to us..I believe thats what forgein policy is for. Your representatives have conveyed to us that you feel threatened 24/7 and thats why they have to attack other countries.I am not interested to know about your way of life, how you are dependent on resources especially oil of other countries while you have your own oil to fulfill your needs but you choose not to dig it out.
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68 magic
"(Israelis in a recent poll think that Obama favors the Palestinians"
Perhaps Obama just has stopped the former US policy of overtly favouring Israel, creating an appearance of favourism of palestinians. Relative.
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72 gavrielle
"If you don't know anything about Americans then you will never understand why America does what it does."
So Obama's next move should be to educate the peasants of Afghanistan about life in middle America so they will understand .....
"And since you don't care to learn about us, you therefore have no right to expect us to learn about you."
You defeat your own argument if you apply this in reverse. The USA learnt nothing about Iraq or Afghanistan ....
I usually agree with your posts, but here I think you have got lost responding to the colonel's inflammatory rhetoric.
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57 magic
"Bush did not go on apology tour, did not snub friends like the U.K and Israel and he met with the Dalia Lama
I'd say Bush has shown far more wisdom than the community orginizer"
I don't think the UK feels snubbed - Israel might, but then it's never really been a 2-way friendship has it. And ooooh the Dalai Lama - wow, Bush must really love peace if he met with the Dalai Lama.
You are really clutching at straws when you compare Bush and Obama on the world stage. Bush was globally seen (outside the USA) as a rather dim-witted puppet figure, even by people who would naturally support him.
Obama is globally respected as an intelligent diplomatic man, even by those who disagree with his policies.
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Israelis in a recent poll think that Obama favors the Palestinians
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They also think that G-d gave them that land..conduct a poll and 99% will think that G-d gave them the land.
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Ref 57, Magic
"Bush did not go on apology tour"
He did a lot more than that when he went to the Olympics in Bejing after the atrocities in Tibet. Admittedly, his decision had to do more with economic desperation than wisdom but, then again, he readily admitted bad intelligence as the reason for some of the most important decisions he made during his tenure in the White House.
Just because Obama doesn't go overseas hat in hand begging for alms does not mean he is "snubbing" anyone. BTW, one of his first official visits overseas was to the UK where he visited the Queen, the PM and other high government officials. He doesn't have to give back rubs to seek friendship from our allies...
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# 57 MagicKirin wrote:
(Bus [sic] did not go on apology tour [sic], did not snub friends like the U.K and Israel and he met with the Dalia [sic] Lama)
I asked for evidence of the 'apology tour'. As ever, facts came there none. Your logic is matched only by your literacy.
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The dead line to receive nominees: the letter must be postmarked ist january...Someone sent Obama's nomination between 20th of januray-1st feb. The short list of nominees takes place between feb and march. where the comittee assess the work of the nominee. Which were the criteria he was short listed for? not the anti missile shield, not for persuading russia to talk to iran, and not for persuading china to talk to north korea. So there must be some mysterious invisible criteria which only committee members could see.
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74. At 6:58pm on 09 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
I am not interested to know about your way of life, how you are dependent on resources especially oil of other countries while you have your own oil to fulfill your needs but you choose not to dig it out.
So, you're only interested in believing what you want to believe about Americans and assume the US is some sort of monolithic entity where every citizen walks in lockstep with the government, big oil and the corporations. Okay, glad to know exactly where you stand. And I'll be sure to take only the opinion of my anti-Muslim representative into account from now on when I am making my political decisions. I won't ever listen to my best friend, whose family is from Saudi. She is not, after all, an expert. Just one of those people whose lifestyle should be of no account to anyone but other Saudis.
76. At 7:31pm on 09 Oct 2009, RomeStu wrote:
You defeat your own argument if you apply this in reverse.
"They don't like me, so I don't like them right back!"
This is the attitude you will get from most people, not only Americans. I was just illustrating the childishness of it all. He doesn't want to know anything about anybody, just the content of their policies. Well, those policies won't change unless we get to know them and they get to know us. Not as a collection of policies and rhetoric, for either side. But as real, three dimensional human beings. Until then, the other side isn't real and can therefore be objectified and killed.
Oh, and Obama doesn't need to educate the "peasants" of Afghanistan. They can differentiate quite well between the men and women on the ground, versus the policies of the government or actions of the military. Just as they are quite capable of knowing the difference between a good and bad human being.
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Ref 81, colonel
"Which were the criteria he was short listed for? not the anti missile shield, not for persuading russia to talk to iran, and not for persuading china to talk to north korea."
The factor that, I suspect, contributed to his selection for this prestigiouos award was his vision, which is already producing results his predecessors were unable to achieve.
Whether people like it or not, the POTUS has the power to change the world and affect life on Earth like no other foreign leader can. Having an idealist with an agenda focused on peaceful coexistence is a welcome respite after decades of continuous turmoil, death and destruction. I suspect that is the reason the Nobel Peace prize committee gave this year's award to Barack Obama.
Consider who may have been in the White House if he hadn't won. The Nobel Peace prize would have been the least of our problems at this point...
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So, you're only interested in believing what you want to believe about Americans and assume the US is some sort of monolithic entity where every citizen walks in lockstep with the government, big oil and the corporations. Okay, glad to know exactly where you stand. And I'll be sure to take only the opinion of my anti-Muslim representative into account from now on when I am making my political decisions. I won't ever listen to my best friend, whose family is from Saudi. She is not, after all, an expert. Just one of those people whose lifestyle should be of no account to anyone but other Saudis.
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I am not interested at all how you live your lives in usa..its none of my business, and after american intereference in other countries and my objection to it, I now strongly belive that what people do inside their own countries is their private business..Your relationsip to the world is through your representatives..and what they say or do is what I have to believe..because they say they work for you as you have elected them. If you want the world to see what americans really are, then elect the representatives who do that..But dont elect people and then blame us for believing that they represent you and your way of lives..
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Consider who may have been in the White House if he hadn't won.
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John Mccain. the guy who actually worked to end this torure thingie, who was against extending war into pakistan..his party the republican had gotten rid of the neo cons who had hijacked it..
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Whether people like it or not, the POTUS has the power to change the world and affect life on Earth like no other foreign leader can. Having an idealist with an agenda focused on peaceful coexistence is a welcome respite after decades of continuous turmoil, death and destruction. I suspect that is the reason the Nobel Peace prize committee gave this year's award to Barack Obama.
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Like it or not, he has no power, unless he continues the war..there are more intelligent people than him in this world..If he lived in a vaccum with no human beings he would have surely acheived the goals...Either you are over-estimating his power or under estimating the powers of his opponents. Tell me where bush, or blair or for that matter taliban ever said that they dont want to live peacefully..your slogan war for peace..getting rid of saddam for peace, getting rid of taliban for peace..taliban's slogan, getting rid of americans and their croonies from their country for peace..
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Oh, and Obama doesn't need to educate the "peasants" of Afghanistan. They can differentiate quite well between the men and women on the ground, versus the policies of the government or actions of the military. Just as they are quite capable of knowing the difference between a good and bad human being.
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Back when america had just invaded afghanistan, and the air was full of echos of "educating the girls". there was a journalist from a very well known tv station who asked a small girl pointing to his nose what its called, and the little girl replied in her language ofcourse, Nose. the journalist again pointed to his nose, and said in english. "Nose"..
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87. At 00:59am on 10 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
Back when america had just invaded afghanistan, and the air was full of echos of "educating the girls". there was a journalist from a very well known tv station who asked a small girl pointing to his nose what its called, and the little girl replied in her language ofcourse, Nose. the journalist again pointed to his nose, and said in english. "Nose".
How horrible! We think women and girls have a right to be educated. Oh my, we must be the Great Satan. Give it a rest, sweetie, we have a right to believe what we believe - and you have a right look over your shoulder in your own home every time the women folk pass by.
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How horrible! We think women and girls have a right to be educated. Oh my, we must be the Great Satan. Give it a rest, sweetie, we have a right to believe what we believe - and you have a right look over your shoulder in your own home every time the women folk pass by.
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And ofocourse you believe that the word, nose, in pashto or dari doesnt exist? and education to you means, what nose is called in english? If this your standard of education, then no wonder taliban are not letting you teach the girls..They have been talked by yours a lot of lesson, among other thing, question of maths for primary school boys, "If you have three AK47s, how many russians can you kill by it? First learn what your government or has done in the past to afghanistani children in the name of education, and then do you slogans of education the rest of your routines..
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89. At 6:51pm on 10 Oct 2009, colonelartist wrote:
And ofocourse you believe that the word, nose, in pashto or dari doesnt exist? and education to you means, what nose is called in english?
No one was trying to corrupt a six year old by making her learn English. The journalist was just entertaining the folks back home and making them coo over the sweet little girl. If it had been a French or German or Iranian journalist they'd have done the same thing in their own language.
If this your standard of education, then no wonder taliban are not letting you teach the girls..
The Taliban were not teaching their girls long before America showed up. It's one of their standard practices. No women in the workplace, therefore females don't need to be educated. Were we in the Swat Valley when the local Taliban took over and closed all the girls schools? No! That was all them.
They have been talked by yours a lot of lesson, among other thing, question of maths for primary school boys, "If you have three AK47s, how many russians can you kill by it? First learn what your government or has done in the past to afghanistani children in the name of education, and then do you slogans of education the rest of your routines..
That would have been Bin Laden and his folks with the AK47s and murderous math texts. That's standard educational fare in Islamic fundamentalist schooling. We are a whole lot more subtle than that! We give them candy bars and toys that don't explode so that they acquire a love for all yummy things American. Like, skin tight jeans, black leather jackets, Harley-Davison motorcycles, loud music, frenzied sexual dancing, romantic love, Star Wars and breaking the rules. America never has to do hardcore propaganda, because our culture of FUN and PERSONAL FREEDOM is all the propaganda we've ever really needed. Britain and Europe have long been Americanized, much to their chagrin or delight, depending on whom you talk to. So has Japan. The Russians used to trade American products and dollars on their Black Market. China is now Americanizing, which is why they block their people from Western internet sites. Young people in the Arab states routinely bypass their countries blocks to illicitly download American movies and music. When we ran the Taliban out of their expensive homes in Kabul the troops found large stashes of American movies that common Afghans were forbidden to watch, but which the Taliban felt free to enjoy. There isn't a country on this planet where someone doesn't want what we have to offer. Text books teaching propaganda? That's for chumps who have no dreams to offer their children!
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That would have been Bin Laden and his folks with the AK47s and murderous math texts
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This was your cia, books printed and shiped from your usa. Better learn what your political leaders do in other countries in your name.
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