Press #3 for linguistic diversity
"Why the Hell Should I Press #1 to Speak English?" reads one T-shirt on sale in the tacky but fun resort of Ocean City.
I have come from multi-lingual Belgium, where French and Dutch is always on telephonic offer, so the ubiquity of "Press 2 for Spanish" here in the US hardly surprises me. Before I arrived I had done my research and knew that Spanish speakers were the second-largest language group in the States and growing fast.
But I had not quite realised the sheer presence of Hispanic people in the USA. In any public space, at least where I live, you do not have to stand long before you hear Spanish spoken.
I like it, it speaks to me of long holidays exploring my favourite European country. But I have been startled - and on a practical level, frustrated - to find that quite a few people serving in shops and restaurant can hardly speak English at all.
I suppose the T-shirt shows that some feel that one of the guiding American principles - you can all come here but you've got to fit in - has been broken.
This rather ignores the fact that the Spanish were behind the founding of what many consider the first permanent settlement in what would become the USA, in St Augustine, Florida.
One riposte to that T-shirt might be: "Pedro Menéndez de Avilés got here first".
A man not known for his gentleness, he might press more than #2 if he saw somebody parading their prejudice down Ocean City broadwalk.
Maybe he would be proud to fill out one of those official forms and declare himself "Hispanic": a separate racial category.
But it strikes me as odd that someone born in Spain would be considered in a separate racial category from an Italian or German, but the same as, say, a Colombian or a Dominican of largely African descent.
Of course, maybe it a cultural thing, but I am not sure what the forms are trying to identify or prove.
For "Hispanic" is a an interesting word: it refers to anyone from the Iberian peninsular or their former territories. But it is Latin in origin.
While "African-American" sounds to me a very modern formation, "Hispanic Roman" was apparently a common category in the Roman empire. Indeed, the Emperor Trajan - another man of a certain temper - was described as such.
His was an empire bound together not by culture or identity but law and language.
And anyone who wanted to do anything other than "Press 1 to speak Latin" might have ended up depicted on his column.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~14~RS~)
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I think you need to check your definitions. The U.S. government defines the group known as "Hispanic" as people from Latin America of Spanish descent. Someone born in Spain is not considered Hispanic. Likewise, Brazilians (who descend from the Portuguese) are not considered Hispanic. Splitting hairs? Possibly. Dumb? Most assuredly. But that's the way it is.
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Mark: you're venturing into a dangerous swamp already...that of linguistic racism. YaMolodets is correct regarding the definition of "Hispanic"...it shades toward the indigenous than the European. But the tee shirt slogan you mention has a whole different set of coordinates in the culture wars that are fought on the fringes of American society. It singles out Spanish because Spanish-speakers are -- in most regions of the US -- the second largest segment of the population, but it's aimed at ALL immigrants, even you. As Representative Joe Wilson of South Carolina (I am a North Carolinian; I wish to make that clear to everyone) so blatantly displayed on Wednesday night, there is a significant segment of our Caucasian population which seems to have forgotten that we are all immigrants to America and wants to keep everyone else out.
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Some people come here for #1 (and that's OK)
Some (many more) for #2.
[That's would be O.K. except they usually don't flush after #2]
The 'real Roosevelt' (Theodore) once said that "all hyphenated Americans should be thrown out of US"
I'm not that radical, but if we are going to accept politically correct nonsenses such as "African-American" label, then we should also make room for for "European American" one, which is obviously and oxymoron (with a stress on a "moron" part).
[Mr. Putin hasn't objected so far to currently used "Caucasian" label]
BTW. There is no such thing as Native Americans; for so called 'Indians' (PC people once tried to force Washington Redskins to change their name as non-PC) are not indigenous. DNA analysis shows that they were first emigrants from North Eastern Siberia (anticipating what would come 15 000 yrs later?), who crossed to these shores without any impediments, since Bering Strait was solidly covered with ice, and there were no U.S. Border Patrols, nor US Immigration Service agents posted to Alaska at that time. And how are we going to call those non-native Natives now?
P.S. Couple of years ago a Californian resident succesuflly sued the Golden State since the form she was expected to fill was in all imaginable languages, from French to Vietnamese, except English.
As a former resident of California I can vouch that that this is not a joke.
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Re Menendez..
America hasn't been discovered by Columbus either. He never made it here.
[poor sod didn't even know where we was when he finally reached present day Haiti]
And "Geronimo" is war cry of certain famous US para battalion which used to send shivers down Mexican spines.
Just as "Remember Alamo!" :-)
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Re# 2 "our Caucasian population".
See, Mark, what I meant?
Do'ya understand now why Georgia is called Georgia?
And why there's "Georgia On My Mind"? ;-)
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"Hispanic" is not a racial category. Here is link to the categories used by the U. S. Census Bureau.
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Many Americans, myself included, prefer to use only one racial category, the human race.
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Crikey !!! For a minute there I thought Ed Stourton was the new American Correspondent !!!!
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Here in Canada it's 1 for English, 2 for French, and sometimes 3 for Spanish. That's fine; it's the next ten questions from the dalek before you get to speak to a human being that reduce me to helpless fury. If having pressed 1 you find yourself speaking to a moron, the canny Canadian tries again and presses 2 to speak to a bilingual francophone in Quebec who is more helpful and knowledgeable than his or her anglophone counterpart in Ontario.
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Mark:
"I suppose the T-shirt shows that some feel that one of the guiding American principles - you can all come here but you've got to fit in - has been broken."
First generation immigrants from non-English speaking countries have always had problems with the language and have always had trouble fitting in.
Their kids, however, turn out to be as American as apple pie in their speech and mannerisms... while still expressing enough cultural identity to make life in the U.S. interesting.
Living in "Color Red" you'd think I'd be experiencing the same problems with Spanish speakers since they obviously were here before the state was named, but no, as a rule the Hispanics I interact with are fluent in English.
Admittedly, it doesn't bother me when I come across someone who has trouble with the language. Indeed, I try to help them out.
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Carolinalady, the linguistic racism you mention takes on even more ironic overtones in the Southwest. I live in New Mexico, where the city of Santa Fe is currently celebrating the 400th anniversary of its founding; Albuquerque celebrated its 300th anniversary a few years ago. It's not unusual to come across someone here whose family came over with the Conquistadors. The indigenous populations of New Mexico have lived in many cases on the same land for a millennium. Most of the Pueblo peoples retained some version of their native language but also adopted Spanish. The US didn't acquire this territory until 1848-1853; New Mexico didn't become a state until 1912. The English speakers were the late comers/immigrants to a centuries-old culture.
Here it's a given that Spanish will be spoken--and not just by recent immigrants, but often by people whose families may have lived on the same land for generations. Xenophobic T-shirts don't get you very far...
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The definition of "Hispanic" is:
The term "Hispanic" refers to persons who trace their origin or descent to Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Central and South America, and other Spanish cultures.
from this document:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_1997standards/
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It seems to me that since "Hispania" was the Roman name for Iberia, the term "Hispanic" should include Portuguese and Brazilians.
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9. ORH - That's exactly right. If you can, you should always press #2, because there is usually no waiting on the French-speaking line because the demand for services in French is much smaller. On the English line, you could be waiting until next Tuesday ...
Mark:
The irony of it is that these Spanish speakers (long ago it used to be "Irish need not apply", etc.,) are the ones who are really dreaming the American dream of building a better life for their children in the new country.
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Thid is a more interesting subject than the previous health care subject. Im a Democrat But, I do believe in capitalism. (I do, I do, I do..)
So, if it helps a company make more money and hire more people, isn't it better to have the option for spanish speakers and other language speakers to buy one's product?
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2 Carolinalady
I have never heard of "linguistic racism". I suppose you think there are racists everywhere in the US?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
For those who find Trajan's Column interesting, here is a link to another, similar column: http://www.astoriacolumn.org/
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It is typical to feel uncomfortable where you don't speak the language of the majority in that area. Its not racism. It can take several generations for immigrants to fully integrate into American society, including the learning of english, which is still the coin of the realm. We should ensure we have policies of integration, not balkanization as found in other parts of the world. Having immigrant enclaves where the major problems is lack of english spoken/used is a minor problem compared to many other nations.
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"I suppose the T-shirt shows that some feel that one of the guiding American principles - you can all come here but you've got to fit in - has been broken."...what has really been broken in many cases is the immigration laws. "You can all come here" - but not without a passport. And you can't stay or work without a visa or 'green card'. This also "rather ignores the fact" that asylum-seekers are one of the hot-button issues in the UK, where you can also find some rather pungent T-shirts and grafitti calling attention to it. "The Spanish were behind the founding of what many consider the first permanent settlement in what would become the USA"...but, of course, it was not very permanent, and there were already many permanent settlements among the aborigines in what would become the USA so it's only a European conception of permanent settlements, anyway. "One riposte to that T-shirt might be: "Pedro Menéndez de Avilés got here first". And one riposte to that T-shirt might be: 'Spanish or English, a European conquistador is still a conquistador.' Neither ones were exactly known for their "gentleness". "The Emperor Trajan - another man of a certain temper" may have had an empire "bound together not by culture or identity but law and language." It could perhaps be argued whether 'law and language' are actually part of 'culture and identity' but in any event the Roman empire didn't last forever and neither will the American. Press #3 to exit the imperium.
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I was born in Mexico although I've grown up all over the world. Three of my grandparents are originally from Spain and one is from Arkansas. Because I am not an indigenous Mexican (ie of Aztec or Mayan descent), people in the United States usually do not guess my heritage unless I volunteer the information. And the response that I get is usually "Oh, sorry, I thought you were Caucasian". I'm never sure of what that's supposed to mean.
Being born in a certain country doesn't change your race or ethnic background. It affects your culture. I consider myself Hispanic because of my culture, not because of my racial heritage.
It makes no sense to me to have to fit into certain boxes simply to align myself to someone else's idea of what I'm supposed to be.
In the UK the same sort of thing goes on with other ethnicities. For example, my husband is British of mixed Sri Lankan and English Caucasian backgrounds. But despite being born in England he's only half 'English', because English is a term reserved for Caucasians.
And as for our daughter...well, trying to define her heritage to someone who is trying to check a single box is quite a challenge (although in my view a pointless one!)
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Simple things facinate and terrify simple people.
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16. At 5:25pm on 11 Sep 2009, mischievousdoug wrote:
2 Carolinalady
I have never heard of "linguistic racism". I suppose you think there are racists everywhere in the US?
------------
There are! And one hell of a lot of them it seems .
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
mariteremn (#21) " ... someone who is trying to check a single box ... "
The Census Bureau now allows multiple boxes to be checked.
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#16 Mischievousdoug: There may be no such thing in the current journalistic lexicon as "linguistic racism." I coined the phrase to indicate that racism and prejudice in America is deep, insidious and lurks in shadows in which you don't normally expect to encounter it. It's embedded in our language, in our unconscious usage of cliche and idiom, joke and slogan. Something said innocuously to your peer group is overheard by someone of different background and it gives offense: hence, the movement toward political correctness.
There is nothing as humbling as having to put your figurative money where your mouth is. I was raised by New-Deal Democrat parents in the North, so I came equipped with liberal values and would have denied to the end that I was racist -- until I came face to face with my own unconcious carelessness of speech in the daily interchange between myself and my neighbors. There are more people of color in less segregated circumstances in North Carolina than there ever were in Chicago, New York or even Washington, DC ...it has been an epiphany.
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21 I o understand the racism you mention in the "half this that" talk.
but I am as white as any white bread loaf and my dad is from devon and I'm still a grockle because I was born out of the county.
I am not English and can make no claim to Englishness because I was born in another country. So my pass port says British. Not English and I claim to be British not English which is useful when a scot or welsh person calls me "english" ;)
Englishness as with welsh etc is a matter of physical geographical birth.
In my family two claim nationality as British
And 3 as English.
But again I fully understand your comment just pointing out the technical englishness side that excluded me and had some calling me "chinky "(inaccurate racist version of where they thought I was born.
)when I was a kid.
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Dear chap,
I know you Brits think all americans have enferior IQs, but my dear brilliant british friend you might want to check your spelling when writing on an international blog. I assume you meant Colombia the country and not Columbia the place in South Carolina. Also, I know you brits think that Europe is some kind of utopia where there is no racism but hispanic old chap is not due to a persons skin color but rather the language they speak. For that reason Brazilians and Colombians are not put in the same categories and Colombians and probably the most racist people on earth the spanish are.
I used to think highly of the BBC, but I guess they are inclined to give any street dog a blog!
Cheerio old chap.
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Thank you for mentioning Trajan!
As others will have pointed out, "Hispanic" refers to the Spanish-speaking segment of Mexico, Central and South America -- also called "Latin America," which causes me a lot of trouble as a classicist using Google.
It does surprise me a bit that you were unprepared to see multiculturalism in America -- that is what a lot of us pride our country on, even if there are some who would prefer it be more monolingual. The same people who wear those t-shirts are also usually able to pronounce "quesadilla" correctly, even if their more tolerant but less exposed counterparts are not.
I look forward to reading your viewpoints on America, and I hope you will seek out other American cultures and subcultures, since they and the way they interact with each other are what make the US interesting!
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Like one member already touched on, I too consider language to be a part of culture. In fact, I consider it to be the primary conveyor of culture. So--for me--having Spanish increasingly become a rival language to American English in the U.S. is a big issue from a cultural standpoint. I think multilingualism is great, but also that American English should be the language in public, and frankly every American-born child's native language (so that he or she thinks in English; I also believe language affects how one views the world).
I consider the United States to be multiracial but not multicultural. A state with many cultures is a state with many nations and is easily divisible. Americans of all races should have a single culture centered on American English and values so that we are a single nation. I subscribe to the 'tomato soup' theory of American culture. We are gradually influenced by the original cultures of our immigrants, but: the change is limited; happens at a properly manageable pace that doesn't fracture or challenge our core culture and our core values; and we choose which of our immigrants' cultural traits to adopt as our own and which to reject. The result is a culture that is renewed and (hopefully) improved, but is still clearly American.
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Now there's a fine contribution (#28), from another pedant who would correct Mr. Mardell's spelling errors, but who has trouble with spelling, punctuation, and capitalization himself.
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My wife was born in Spain and so was my father. In fact, all my ancestry is Basque (maternal) and from Galicia and the Canary Islands. I lived in Spain 13 years, spent 12 in Venezuela and almost 3 in Puerto Rico. I speak Spanish fluently.
The reason for the "press 2 for Spanish" is both a recognition that a large segment of our population (approximately 18%) is originally from Central and South America or descendents of people who lived in states that were formerly Spanish and Mexican possessions. It is also influenced by sound business practices. One of our greatest assets is our ability to find ways to make a buck, and our businessmen were not about to pass up the opportunity to attract one of the largest segments of our population.
Thank you for mentioning St. Augustine, I live 30 miles from that beautiful city and go there quite often to enjoy its architecture, scenery, the ethnic restaurants in the historic district and the sense of history that emanates from it.
The term Hispanic is, indeed, misleading since technically it applies to the natives of Hispania (modern day Spain and Portugal). The same goes for the term Latino, but since we have never been too bashful about adopting someone elses terms they are as acceptable as any other term. Frankly, I am more perturbed by the fact that my beloved football is called soccer in the USA, and a game played mostly with the hands is called football!
The terms Hispanic and Latino are used in the USA to identify anyone who speaks Spanish or bears a Spanish name, regardless of ethnicity. As a result, the descendents of Native Americans whose ancestors fought the Hispanic conquerors five centuries ago are called Hispanics, descendents of African slaves that were brought in chains to the New World are also called Hispanic, and the same goes for mulattos and mestizos who more often than not were denied the opportunity to high government positions reserved for Spaniards and Portuguese.
Bear in mind that we have the option to select white, if we wish.
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For American English press 1
For Spanish press 2
For Mandarin Chinese press 3
For Hatian Creole press 4
For Russian press 5
For Hindi press 6
For Vietnamese press 7
For Mongolian press 8
For Tadjikistani press 9
For British English hang up and dial your MP. Or dial 0, speak with the UK overseas operator and just ask for "jug-ears."
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Mr. Mardell,
If you're interested in checking out places in America like New Mexico where other cultural and linguistic influences are celebrated alongside traditional American ones, I recommend visiting south Louisiana. Here, culture, language, and history have created a citizenry and governing system that is genuinely unique and interesting among these United States.
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How long have you being doing this Mark?
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28, Logicseeker:
GH1618 in #31 has already pointed out that when criticizing someone's spelling, you might want to at least attempt to use correct punctuation and capitalization. I would add that writing coherent sentences would also be helpful, and make you look less of a fool.
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For Transalvania press M for Marcus.
For America press S for stolen.
For God press W for wait, there are 30 million ahead of you in the queue.
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The Spanish speaking people have been in the south west and Florida and California since the 1500's before the Anglo culture became dominant.
In some places in the US Hispanics have always had the dominant culture and Spanish has been the dominant language.
These places were taken over by the dominant culture of the Anglo's United States in the mid 1800's
America is a very complex nation and the news media and how we are taught history does not reflect that complexity.
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This is nice map of the US showing Hispanic concentrations
http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_hispanicpop.html
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Hey there #31, thats the point, no one is giving me a blog! The BBC didnt (yes, daddy I know its didn't) make me North American Editor, so that I can write Garmany or Emerica or Cenada on an international blog for a reputable news agency so that I can ask stupid questions that have basic answers. SaintDominick did a good job of explaining that hispanic is due to language and not the color of one's skin!
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Oh, that's a nice innovation. After all what's a blog without pictures? Better than video clips that take ages to load.
I don't know about 'English' being 'reserved for Caucasians'. Not that I know of. Depends whether you're being asked about your country of birth or your ethnicity. Friend of mine gets irritated because she's an Arab, so technically 'Semitic', and she usually writes that in the 'ethnicity' bit--not usually compulsory on forms here, btw --because that isn't usually accounted for.
I'm half as well. But being born in the north of England, I'm a Northerner, first.
(Fluffy: Devon? Isn't that a foreign country? Kids can be very mean about one's other half, as it were, can't they? Until after the third or fourth fight, I found . . .)
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If you look closely at Trajan's Column, I think you can see some of a certain contributor's ancestors. They're in the 'Conquest of the Dacians' bit.
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30. At 8:16pm on 11 Sep 2009, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:
"Americans of all races should have a single culture centered on American English and values so that we are a single nation."
What would those "American English" values be? The ones of Hooker, Hobbes or Locke? Of Winstanley? Of Marx, formulatng his theories and ideas in the British Museum Reading Room, or Engels in Manchester? T. H Huxley? (Can't be Adam Smith's, thank goodness, he was a Scot.)
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3. At 3:57pm on 11 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:
"BTW. There is no such thing as Native Americans; for so called 'Indians' (PC people once tried to force Washington Redskins to change their name as non-PC) are not indigenous."
Sorry is this a joke? Who were the indigenous americans then - the mormons?
" DNA analysis shows that they were first emigrants from North Eastern Siberia (anticipating what would come 15 000 yrs later?), who crossed to these shores without any impediments, since Bering Strait was solidly covered with ice, and there were no U.S. Border Patrols, nor US Immigration Service agents posted to Alaska at that time. And how are we going to call those non-native Natives now?"
Fascinating, and where did the real indigenous Americans come from or do you think Olduvai Gorge is in Calfornia?
The American nations do not claim (except in terms of theirr religion)to evolved as human beings in the United States.
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42. At 11:10pm on 11 Sep 2009, squirrellist wrote:
If you look closely at Trajan's Column, I think you can see some of a certain contributor's ancestors. They're in the 'Conquest of the Dacians' bit."
As a follow up to this the roman settlers and natives of the new province (now Roumania)were eventually known to the Barbarians as the "welsh" (meaning foreigner who cannot speak properely) - maybe this accounts for our Roumanian reject's latest and wierdest "view" about welsh people whom he seems to think responsible, in some arcane and peculiar way, for American slavery.
I presume he believes Antietam is in Cardiff.
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40. At 10:48pm on 11 Sep 2009, Logicseeker wrote:
Hey there #31, thats the point, no one is giving me a blog! The BBC didnt (yes, daddy I know its didn't) make me North American Editor, so that I can write Garmany or Emerica or Cenada on an international blog for a reputable news agency so that I can ask stupid questions that have basic answers. SaintDominick did a good job of explaining that hispanic is due to language and not the color of one's skin!"
SO as soon as someone learns and speaks Spanish (Hispanic is not actually a langauge as far as I am aware. I wouldn't tell an educated Argentinian he was speaking "hispanic" - not within fist range anyway) they mysteriously become "hispanic"?
As soon as one starts speaking rap one becomes black I suppose, like eminem?
It goes a bit further than that. Speaking Latin does not make you a Roman does it.
Incidently Hispania is the Latinised Punic word for Hither Spain. It is beleived by some to mean land of rabbits.
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Spaniards destroyed more native American civilizations than any other European nation. The Incas and the Aztec for a start. Spain was the greatest curse on the New World, even more than Britain and France. The United States of America ended the last vesiges of Spanish colonial rule in the Western Hemisphere by defeating Spain in the Spanish American war early in the 20th century kicking them out of Cuba and Puerto Rico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_colonization_of_the_Americas
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Spanish American War
Hmmm, I remember in high school history learning about how William Randolph Hearst lied the US into the Spanish American War with his yellow journalism. This might have been the part of American history that most influenced the decision making of Bush the younger in his pursuit to extend the Monroe Doctrine to the ME ; )
"Remember the Maine" has some more significance for me now that was formed as I watched the US build up to a war in Iraq.
There appears to be a pattern that has formed in American history of being lied into war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_the_Spanish_American_War
"The Spanish-American War (April-August 1898) was the first conflict in which military action was precipitated by media involvement. "
"Theodore Roosevelt was the assistant secretary of the Navy during the time leading up to the Spanish-American War. He was looking for a war, not particularly caring who it was against, since he felt it would be good for the nation. Roosevelt thought a war would help re-unite the North and the South as the American Civil War was still fresh in people's minds. Roosevelt saw the revolution going on in Cuba as a perfect opportunity for this."
.......................................................
People may recall that Bush the younger was compared to Teddy Roosevelt by some of his supporters
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43 Squirrelist "What would those "American English" values be?"
Well as one I could probably offer a few suggestions but I doubt they will listen. Half is enough to make one despicable .
Whats the difference between half a hole and a hole?;)
Devon is a place so important in history that they named a geological perion after it.
the place where the "English american(oops) "culture set sail from.
that Rock of old fashioned views.
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If the hereditary children of the Romans had continued to take an active interest in civic affairs, as Augustus begged them to do, rather than moving to 'latifundia' in the country or the provinces, the Roman state would have remained 'Roman', and might have held on to it's empire. In the last couple of centuries the government as well as the army were in the hands of more ambitious non-Italians.
If the hereditary children of 'white Anglo-Saxon' Americans would continue to take an active interest in civic affairs and show the drive and ambition of their ancestors, as no one in particular is motivating them to do, the American state and culture would stay closer to European / traditional values, and English would continue its place as the language of government, education, and culture.
I am one of those white, Anglo-Saxon protestant Americans with at least 11 generations tenure on this continent. {I know, I Know, but this is what we are talking about for now.} My ancestors struggled and scrapped and failed and homesteaded and tried different trades, oh, and failed, and only in my father's generation did any of them find economic stability or an education as high as high school, with the help of the WWII GI bill. My cousins and their children still have the eagerness to believe in and prove what they can accomplish in this land of golden opportunity through honest effort, persistence, and education.
But too many of us either do not have my two-generation advantage, or do not see the point in trying. Work suited to their training and abilities, work my grandparents were glad to find and proud to do, is beneath them - so that they no longer strive to grow, nor do many of the privileged younger generation among my sort strive to see what they can accomplish.
WE have become horribly spoiled, some of us; rotten, as my grandmother would say, and not lovingly.
From where I sit, the future in this country belongs to the 'hispanics' and other immigrant minorities. In my community, they are doing the work, they are making sacrifices to see their family secure and prosperous, they are insisting that the kids get as good an education as possible, and learn never to shirk.
My wife runs the largest Head Start center in town, and works with 125 three- and four-year-olds each year from the poorest homes, to prepare them and their parents (often grandparents as the parents are not capable) to begin their public school careers. I have learned a lot about my community as a result of her commitment to them.
The hispanic parents are almost always involved, ready to do what ever their children need, volunteer at the school, and support the teachers' authority. Primarily, the black parent(s) are glad to have free babysitting for a few hours a day, and those on the dole are ready to take handouts, but not so ready to take their child to the dentist or the audiologist when it is called for, to talk to them or read to them. Most white parents in that part of town don't come to meetings, don't take an interest in their kids education, and sometimes don't even send them in to school clean. These are the ones with whom I have the greatest genetic and cultural affinity. Mixed sorts' levels of involvement are mixed.
As I said, the future belongs to those who make it happen. It is theirs already today.
KScurmudgeon
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49. At 02:49am on 12 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:
"Devon is a place so important in history that they named a geological period after it."
True. All they managed to name anything after from my part of the country was a cheese. Not so impressive. (Sighs.)
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This topic was covered in an earlier blog by Justin - I posted a link which the Mods thought unsuitable, but it may be found by Googling "Press One For English" (use quotation marks.) The little ditty expresses what many people think, even if unwilling to say so.
Re. Devon - I too was born there (Paignton General Hospital) and although in England, my passport still shows British, with the beautifully archaic request in the front: . . requests and requires in the name of Her Britannic Majesty . . . &c. It doesn't mention being English, Scottish or Irish. No insult to the Welsh, since technically Wales, despite its Assembly, is still a part of England and thus not named.
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You blog well, Mark. Most engrossing and enjoyable. Just one thing: I do hope you don't lose your British identity over there in the USA. I say this because you write of forms being "filled out". We Brits write "fill in".
Americans have been filling out at an alarming rate for some time, hence their current medical-care crisis :)
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You may also wish to have your moderators check the wording concerning moderation :)
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RE # 1 you are absolutely right
Re # 3 That one sort of reminds me of the old Johnny Carson joke about Lawrence Welk.
Re # 4 Gerinimo was actually a tribal leader for the Apache Tribe who fought and US Military during the so called indian wars. Eventually Gerinimo would live be forced to live on a reservation, where he died of old age in 1909. During world war two, US Paratroopers from the 101st Airborne division would make his name famous by using it as a sort of war cry as they jumped out of planes over Europe.
# 9 I too feel that automated telephone systems are a pain. Since you mention the Daleks, you don't suppose that Davros was behind the invention of Automated Telephone Systems lol.
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Ref 47, MA
"Spaniards destroyed more native American civilizations than any other European nation."
Judging by the size of the indigenous population in countries like Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru, Guatemal, Honduras and Mexico it is apparent that they fell short of what happened in the USA.
The areas most affected by the Spanish conquest were the Caribbean islands where disease introduced by the European conquerors decimated the population. There is no question that there were abuses, out of control greed, cultural and class preferences, treachery, and exploitation of the indigenous population in lands under Spanish and Portuguese control, but aside from the fact that Hispanics had no problems marrying and recognizing the children they had with native women and that they never implemented a system of "reservations", there was little difference between what they did to the native population - and to African slaves - and what other European countries and later the USA did.
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Ref 57
I should have added that what they are guilty of is the intentional destruction of native cultures rather than the intentional decimation of the native population.
In some ways, there are clear parallels between our adventures in the Middle East and what the conquerors did in the Americas five centuries ago.
Regarding good old Teddy, the parallels between his policies and actions and W's are unmistakable.
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"I never should have surrendered. I should have fought until I was the last man alive"
-Last words of Geronimo,Chiricahua Apache.
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Re #55
"Geronimo!" cry can still be heard today, and not only at Fort Campbell.
And "Remember Alamo!" is still being used, although more often than not,
half-jocularly. [with a stress on "half" ;-)]
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RE # 60
That is so true, the phrase Gerinomo has become so synomous with Parachuting that it's almost become cleche.
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Re#57...
If anybody complains about atrocities commited by Pizarro and his men he obvously never checked Cortez's record. ;-)
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I grew up in a Quaker town in Oregon, where although American english was the norm, occasionally you'd hear english of a different sort. Have you ever heard the dialect of Shakespear spoken in anger? It would be funny except it takes alot to get a normally pacifist Quaker angry.
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" 1. At 3:27pm on 11 Sep 2009, YaMolodets wrote:
I think you need to check your definitions. The U.S. government defines the group known as "Hispanic" as people from Latin America of Spanish descent."
That nots true! The US government defines Hispanic/Latino as someone with a Spanish-speaking Latin American ethnic background regardless of racial characteristics. So it does not only include people of Spanish descent but also people of any racial heritage (African, Asian, European, Native American, etc.) Sammy Sosa, a Dominican, who is clearly of mostly African descent is a Latino/Hispanic according to the US definition and so is Alberto Fujimori, the former president of Peru who is entirely of Japanese descent. Its a silly category that ignores the fact that prejudice and social divisions in the Americas (North and South) has been far more defined by race than ethnicity. An ironic example of this is the fact priviledged whites of Latin American descent, including many wealthy elite white Cuban Americans from my hometown Miami, are allowed to benefit from minority advancement initiatives and programmes in the US.
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Ref 62, Power
"If anybody complains about atrocities commited by Pizarro and his men he obvously never checked Cortez's record. ;-)"
Atrocities do take place every time a country invades another, particularly when their cultures are dramatically different and when part of their motivation is a desire to implant their religious and cultural convictions on others, in addition to seizing what the vanquished possessed. We don't have to go back 500 years to find examples of that unfortunate reality...
Francisco Pizarro and Hernan Cortez are the most famous Spanish conquerors, well known for their cruelty, greed and treachery, but they were not the only ones. The Tainos, Caribs, Chibchas, Quechuas and every other indigenous population felt the pain of conquest and European colonization in Latin America.
The same can be said for what took place in what we know today as the USA. The only difference is that in our case the nefarious acts carried out against the indigenous population did not take place 500 years ago.
Judging by what is taking place today it is apparent that humanity has not learned much from the past - or doesn't care - and that it remains intent on abusing others and seizing what others have the same way our ancestors did centuries ago.
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"You either have it or you don't." Yes, this is true. Two years of off-topic, irrelevant, out-of date (occasionally insulting but more often amusing) posts put you in Camp Du Not (1 star)
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Actually Marcy, the letters thing is American. I'm a hell of a lot younger than you and our 'phone had a dial with numbers only (my parents are a little cheap). It was a rather pleasing two-tone green affair that made a cool sound if you knocked it off its shelf (like a piano falling down the stairs in a film).
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Re#67
There must have been a significant upward mobility at that time after all, since Pizarro was an illegitimate son of a peasant woman. :-)
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Mostly erroneous "You either have it or you don't."
YOU DON'T
60
That remember the alemo. Is that said these days as a threat to immigrants from south of the border?
I suspect if it is being used these days there would be some of that in it.
"we showed you once".
Not very nice
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Marcus, did you kill your wife? Are you trying to confess via the medium of Mardell?
Personally, I'd have chosen Nick Bryant (though Mrs C doesn't really deserve it). He might not get so many hits, but there's a BBC blogger to be proud of.
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56. Marcus at Prince Charles again. When you mention despite advantages and ears , it is pretty obvious who yuo are talking about if like me you have ended up reading a few of your posts.
Next a simon Johnson barrage and then a quick foray into how europe is a plague continent and back to champaign parties at the BEEB for afters..
How droll and repetitive.
"hey you on Waltons mountain I think you misplaced your kid"
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64 more off topic anti charles rants there MA.
How sad and Pathetic.
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crosseyes;
There are many ways to draw a picture. The most obvious way is with lines. But sometimes when you draw one line, you cross another. You can also draw a picture with a series of dots. Each one doesn't seem to mean anything by itself until you connect them together. Many people can do that and get the picture clearly. Others just see a series of unconnected dots that seem incoherent. Your posting #68 makes it clear which category you fit into.
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Ref 72, PM
The fact that his father, don Gonzalo Pizarro Rodríguez de Aguilar, was an infantry colonel that distinguished himself during the Italian campaigns under Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba made all the difference in the world. Recognizing and giving their surname to children conceived out of wedlock was commonplace among the aristocracy and elite in Spain and did not carry a stigma.
Pizarro benefited from his paternal lineage and, obviously, from his ability to bring incredible wealth to Spain after conquering and pillaging the Inca empire. Not surprisingly, the inept royals squandered their newly acquired treasure in religious and dynastic wars while the rest of Europe benefited from the sale of goods and the creation of industry.
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crosseyes
Read the other posts. At least one other poster seems to have gotten it even though he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. I'm sure if you make a determined effort to apply yourself....
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"Your posting #68 makes it clear which category you fit into."
Yes, unfortunately it does, you've caught me out. I've been reading your drivel for so long now that I can actually differentiate from the cretinous stupidities that usually arise from the occasional, merely misguided oddities that you provide us with.
Looks like I've been joining the dots (mostly polyester dots from the 70's) and have come up with a picture of a human being. This was obviously an error.
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Gosh Marcy, you're so awfully clever, please do explain....
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Gee Marcy you're so dull. Are your rather half-witted (ham fisted) royalist conspiracies supposed to outrage us? What on earth is your actual point man?
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One of these days I'll press 2 for spanish just for kicks but I don't think "Una cervesa senorita por favor." or "Donde esta el bano?" (my complete lexicon of spanish) will get me very far.
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I have to agree with oldredhen (9):
I don't mind the press one for english, what really agrivates me is the computer that talks to you and offers you an endless array of questions before you actully get to talk to a living breathing human being. And then they are more than likely going to be somone in India whose english, while technically correct, is sometimes hard to understand, idiom and turns of phrase which are common in American English are lost on them. I suppose that a briton would have an easier time talking to them.
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"you're so awfully clever, please do explain"
crosseyes I might have tried...if I'd thought there was any hope of you understanding it. But under the circumstances....I'd be wasting my time in the attempt.
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Ref 83, Grey
Looks like you got the basic necessities covered! Unfortunately, it takes more than a crash course in a foreign language to understand the linguistic diversity and variances that often take place for a variety of reasons. Some of the messages I hear when I dial 2 are delivered in accents and use expressions that have little in common with what you woould hear in Spain. This is not a put down, it is simple reality and it is often attributed to the use of old phrases no longer in vogue in the Iberian Peninsula, the influence of indigenous languages and dialects on the "official" language and the level of education of the persons delivering the message or writing an article.
Although most people consider Spanish as being the language spoken in Spain, I think it is appropriate to point out that Spain recognizes Castilian (Spanish), Euskera (Basque), Catalan (Catalonian) and Galician as its official languages. In fact, it also recognized various dialects such as Aragonese, Asturian, Caló, Valencian (usually considered a dialect of Catalan), Extremaduran, Gascon and Occitan as well. In some parts of Spain, such as Catalonia, Spanish is a second language to many of its citizens who prefer to speak their native Catalonian.
Language is one of the most dramatic manifestations of regionalism in Spain and other countries, a fact that is almost incomprehensible in the USA. It, as well as history and traditions, account for the lack of national pride that is apparent in many countries where large segments of the population identify themselves as natives of the region rather than the country. My wife is one of them, when people ask where she is from her answer is an unequivocal "fron the Canary Islands". Only when people give her a puzzle look or ask her what that is she adds...Spain. As an American, I find that attitude puzzling, not only because I know she loves Spain, but because it highlights the influence of regional pride and loyalty over the sense of patriotism that we so often display and articulate.
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Mark,
The America I was raised in is a home. The America you know is a concept you have formed from images and perceptions. Consequently you will have many realizations as you spend more time here. Also know that American English is extemely fluid. Half the fun is listening to it evolve and keeping up. Forget trying to pinpoint exact meanings, you'll know when you get it.
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linguistic racisism!
Enough!!!
Immigrants, if you don't want to learn the language, stay home or move to a country where the language is known to you. Take the opportunity of using your brain cells to learn the language of country where you live. Make the effort, you might just enjoy it, finding many new friends and lots of new experiences along the way.
Mathematical racism for the numerically challenged will be next.
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#84 GreySquirrel1867
We Brits stuggle too.
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78 St Dom.
How would you describe 'Duende' then?
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We do not consider St Augustine the first settlement because Florida was not even a state until 1845, so weather it is technically the first or not, most Americans consider Jamestown as the first American settlement. This probably runs along the same lines as soccer and the mile with most of us.
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So marcus thought you think I'm not that bright(which of course would only worry a fool).
I did point out what you have admitted to.
That you are attempting to slander Prince Charles
In posts
79
77
71
69
64
56
71, 69, 64, 56 are slander because a reasonable person could tell who you were talking about even if they choose to ignore it.
You build a post in little nits that obviously in their entirety accuse Prince Charles of Murder.
Add to that that they are way off topic and it amazes me and others that you are allowed to carry on posting when so many others are not.
Your wit is not so entertaining and your observations are more often than not incorrect if not just plain lies.
You are not really as smart as you think You are.
Don't confuse others stupidity with your intelligence.
OH and Paulcrossleyi makes you look like a kindergarten pupil.
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90 no the racists struggle the rest of Britain just get on as best as any neighbour.
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Marcus do yuo realise the only reason your posts are allowed is because you are so Crazy, Soinsane that your comments cannot be taken seriously by right minded folk.
Without that little clause not a single post of yours would be allowed.
Then you think you are smart.
That really is quite funny . so I take back saying you provide NO entertainment and change that statement to "so little as to be worthless"
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Ref 92, prc
"We do not consider St Augustine the first settlement because Florida was not even a state until 1845, so weather it is technically the first or not, most Americans consider Jamestown as the first American settlement."
Are you insinuating that only events and people from the original 13 British colonies deserve historical recognition? Florida, like Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Alaska and Hawaii are an integral part of the USA and anything that transpired there, whether it happened before or after those states were annexed to our country remains as relevant as what happened in the British colonies.
You are correct, however, in saying that most Americans consider Jamestown the first European settlement in what we now know as the USA, but that doesn't mean such assertion is historically accurate. Sadly, our school system is more than willing to perpetuate myths, distortions or omissions influenced by cultural bias and xenophobia to satisfy the majority of our citizens.
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Ref 91, Alpha
Ghost.
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76. At 2:26pm on 12 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:
"64 more off topic anti charles rants there MA."
If no-one else will, I will. And I have. It's what the "complain about this post" is for. "Off-topic' is still in the
House Rules, folks. Otherwise it will become impossible on this blog to debate anything other than of MAII's choosing.
Just so MA knows who to blame.
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93. At 4:34pm on 12 Sep 2009, fluffytale
Thank you. I'm astounded hardly anyone else saw it.
I've seen some despicable farragos from MAII in my time, but that beats the lot.
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99 Squirrel OH well I complained as well.
but slander and off topic MA rants about whatever he wants.
Have you seen the waltons Mountain crew?
I put a call out hoping they would take the kid back after play time as he was getting to be a bit of a bore with the other kids.
But it seems their parents asked if he wanted to play hide and seek . then emigrated.
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Ref 89, copper
"Immigrants, if you don't want to learn the language, stay home or move to a country where the language is known to you. Take the opportunity of using your brain cells to learn the language of country where you live. Make the effort, you might just enjoy it, finding many new friends and lots of new experiences along the way."
The brain cells of those who leave their country in the pursuit of that their ancestral homeland denies them function very well. Most succeed not only in learning the language of the host country, but they often display initiative and ingenuity in starting small businesses and becoming major contributors to the betterment of our society.
Bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of Americans working overseas do not even attempt to learn the language spoken in the countries where they work, and many demand the native population to communicate with them in English.
Contrary to popular opinion arrogance is not a virtue we should be proud of.
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Squirrelist I fear that he ( MA ) falls under the title of INSANE so they allow it to carry on and on and on.
without fear. but if so they should really put a warning around his posts.
97 St dominick.
and all those settlements ignore the fact that some Viking types made it over here way earlier. There are myths (though probably more true than many myths that abound out of america) from the Celtic Histories of a Welsh Prince travelling to the USA;) and returning to collect some more family members then returning.
Which leads me to the strange coincidence (I have mentioned this one before) of a Chinook salmon having a big hooked chin and being called as it is (one of many names).
Unless there were European involvement in the name.
We are told lots of names here in the states that are supposedly "indian" . This is an example that would lead me to doubt that.
I would say they are western names but having killed most of the locals off who do you ask now.
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Dear Mr. Mardell, I think you hit on a very interesting point. It seems to me that prejudice and bigotry are based on insecurity and fear. People want a nice big safe "us" to belong to, an "us" with lots of goodies and percs, that have to be hoarded and protected from "them". If one admits that "them" are as good as or better than one, then that there "them" might take your place in the "us" group and get all the goodies. Finding out that an "Hispanic" was a Roman emporer won't help defeat that kind of prejudice - it'll just make "us" worse. Nice column tho.
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97. At 4:47pm on 12 Sep 2009, saintDominick:
Well, we've already been told there is no such thing as a 'Native' or 'indigenous' American because they originated on the other side of the Bering Strait long before any European hit the shores, so why should that be a surprise?
Your inference appears to be correct.
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@ 64, Marcus writes "you either have it or you don't".
Ms fluffytale @ 73 -you are completely wrong. We can confirm that Marcus has it.
Specialist veterinarian consultation has found no cure though, so we may be forced to search for a real doctor soon, if he shows no improvement.
@ 71 Marcus quotes Shakespeare or was it Bacon. {Again we always prefer to dispute all historical facts concerning foreigners} . "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances..."
Marcus again confounds this norm. He is all exits, yet in his field, he is no trouble to anyone. Thank heavens for gripe water - another inspired American discovery. You Europeans do lag behind in making useful things for our world.
Mr Mardell. You walk a tightrope.
The title "Press #3 for linguistic diversity" without explanation for #3, could be taken as an underhand flippant slur on our great GW, not just others having language difficulties. The same great GW, who has been accused by others for exhibiting a mental and oral ability different than the average. Nobody pressed GWB's buttons, or worked him with a hand or foot. He was just so special, just like our Mark is. You should be ashamed of leaving a statement up in the air, but coming from Belgium we will forgive you these early mistakes.
Please stop confusing us Americans with more poor attempts here, especially if they are to be noted with doubtful innuendos buried in the title - si voos plaze .{I refer you to the title of your previous offering. You sound like our Marcus who does it all the time} How do you get them passed the moderators? Does having a pocket full of Euros help?
Blanche.
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Re #106
You are welcome to run your own comparative DNA tests.
If you can disprove those already conducted, please make sure to publish the results in "Nature". They can make you famous.
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Marcus
Got you.
Smarty pants.
Suzzanne
88
"Forget trying to pinpoint exact meanings, you'll know when you get it."
LOL but that is part of the problem.
Americans use words as if they are a Style.
Word do have a meaning and when that is forgotten they revert to being as useful as grunting.
Words do change and new words appear old ones reappear , sometimes in a new form.
I personally am so lax with many words it has driven some regular posters clear around the bend (though not the U bend) but I do not hold it against hem if they don't understand my meaning.
\ Or double.
The words Do have a meaning. America should learn that or revert to grunting.
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I must disagree with Fluffytale & that other squirrel:
I find that Marcus' posts are eloquent and well thought-out. He has a far greater grasp of the depth of American problems, attitudes, and principles upon which our nation was founded than you.
For some odd reason his superior use of intellect makes your feel threatened and you must reply with pedant diatribes that amount to little more than name childish name calling.
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St. D: English is used in so many places around the world, especially in former possessions of the British Empire, that we english speaking peoples can go a long ways without bothering to learning to speak the language. Britons are just as guilty of ugly tourism as Americans, especially when they’re drunk.
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107. At 5:18pm on 12 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII:
Let me explain how you have overstepped the line yourself. To assert that it is merely for others to come to a certain conclusion by inference (through 'joining up the dots' as you put it) is no defence in law of a constructed libel, no matter how clever you think you have been.
You have quite clearly, from the tenor of previous posts here, indicated that you intend no other conclusion to be drawn. Not only that, you have actually clearly now confirmed your purpose and intention:
"I'll have to admit that I made the dots close enough to each other so that even a blind man couldn't help but stumble over some of it in the dark ."
I am amazed that this apparently requires to be explained.
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107
No you agreed that another poster had correctly determined what rubbish you were on about.
Me, being the only one to venture an idea must be the one you said had guessed correctly.
Having said what I said and you agreed to it that seems like an admission of guilt.
don't get into any more crime you are likely to jail yourself.
108 Waltons mountain.
Long time no see.
sorry to disturb the cow poke but marcus has a runny nose And I think he may have a case of the Spanish flue that we all know is quite dangerous.
Is there no chance he can be given some more of that cough syrup.
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I know you are, but what am I?
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Mount Walnut
Where I come from, innuendo is defined as an Italian suppository. You can put it in the Northern United States.
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In the last thread, I tried to point out irony in the pretense of support for socialized medicine as a moral issue. I may have gone too far when I gave an example, and got censored for it.
It might have been inferred that the entire progressive movement was guilty of despicable acts, when I did not say that only the far left of the party that are aggressively pursuing such evil ends. For that omission I must apologize.
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squirreliest;
The libel laws in the US are very different from those in the UK. Anyway, I did not mention Prince Charles or the British Royal Family even once in this thread so far. This is the first time. The rest is all your own inference. Considering you come from a place which refers to Americans as Septics (yes I know all about the book Septic's Guide, it was only a week ago that we discussed it) and where President Bush was libeled and Slandered according to UK laws countless times by countless people, this really is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. But beyond that, it is clear to me that the British really have no sense of humor at all. It is not merely dry, it has shiveled up, withered, and disappeared altogether. All the more incentive for me to have some fun at your expense. BTW, I'm still working on that "Chicken'Guide to the American Language." You do remember what I said the Chickens are.
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Marcus:
Which end of the Northern United States do suppose the innuendo goes?
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1867 hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe. You know the punchline.....I just can't help it. This just has to get censored but here goes anyway. As first generation Italian Americans would say......(ready or not) hehehehehehehe........Upper US.
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111
Really . then how come he thought american car manufacturers were the best and were not going to fall .
he got that wrong.
Or the comment about how Obama would never get elected.
Or that claim about the american economy doing so well.
Go on there are many many more of his opinions out there and they end up proved wrong so have at it.
Show me the money
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#118. MarcusAureliusII:" It is not merely dry, it has shiveled up, withered, and disappeared altogether."
I've often thought that description probably accounts for the frequent bursts of invective, his reproduction abilities having been abated.
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118. At 6:05pm on 12 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII
This is a British website subject to English law. It matters not whether US law, French law, or Brazilian law is different. Read the 'Terms and Conditions' you agreed to when you took up BBC membership, again. They are perfectly clear on the point.
It is also clear that if required for the purposes of a legal action, the BBC will not respect the anonymity of someone who breaks the law, any more than Google has recently in the United States.
You are not. nor is anyone here, a 'source' that a journalistic organisation or a journalist would protect in a court of law. I certainly would not risk going to gaol for you. And the legal consequences of protecting a source's anonymity is actually something I have had to think about very seriously in the past.
Now, can we get back on topic?
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111. At 5:30pm on 12 Sep 2009, GreySquirrel1867 wrote
I must disagree with Fluffytale & that other squirrel
I think I should point out that I also dissociate myself from the views of other squirrel species. And, btw. I am no more a squirrel than an anaesthetist is an anaesthetic.
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111 pedant is the favoured word these days from nit pickers. that have found no nits.
PS do one day try to get some meat behind your comments.
they are at best supporting roles for MA and the hoard.
problem with debating with MA is he's fick. le
her thinks a c5 transport is the same as an airbus 380
and the space shuttle would be better off with just the one O ring.
he has soo many wrong turns it is amazing that he finds his way to the blog.
lucky for him that bookmark tab or he's be lost.
At all times showing incredible lack of comprehension. but then so do you and so many other right wingers that I'm not really surprised by your comment.
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lol squirrellist I think this parrots dead so have fun.eat up.
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fluff;
The only one I acknowledge is that I posted on William Crawley's blog site that Obama would not get elected. I later posted the obvious, that I had been wrong about that. It seemed highly improbable at the time. This was early on in the campaign when there were scads of candidates for the Democratic Party nomination and it looked like Hillary Clinton was a shoe in. Of course I never figured on Acorn.
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It's not true that "Hispanic" is considered a race in the US Census questionnaires. The official state-recognized definition of Hispanic explicitly spans several ethnic and racial groups with historical and cultural ties to the Spanish Empire. And I believe the Census asks Hispanic respondents to identify their "race", if they are white, black, Asian, or other.
The peculiarity, however, is that "mestizo" (mixed European and Amerindian ancestry) is not a recognized racial category, nor are Amerindians indegenous to areas outside the United States (for example: Mexico, Canada, Carribean, Central & South America) recognized in the "American and Alaskan Native" category. This prevents several, and probably even the majority, of American Hispanics from correctly identifying their race. This is also compounded by the fact that in American *public discourse*, "Hispanic" is regarded as a "race", and it usually assumes mestizo physical characteristics, as other posters noted earlier. Many Americans have this mestizo stereotype of what a Hispanic person should look like, and so if they meet a white Spaniard, white Argentine, black Dominican, or Asian Peruvian, they'll be confused, and they'll say to that person that he/she "doesn't look Hispanic". (Of course, it's also worth noting that the term "Hispanic" IS NOT USED IN LATIN AMERICA nor in Spain.) And, of course, I have both Mexican friends and Spaniard friends who get annoyed (and rightfully so) when Americans refer to Latin Americans as "Spanish". I doubt these same Americans would refer to themselves (or Jamaicans, Bahamians, or Canadians for that matter) as "British".
The entire issue of ethnic, cultural, and linguistic identity in the Unites States is approached in such a illogical way; it doesn't surprise me that Mr Mardell or any other outsider is perplexed by it.
Take, for example, this popular notion (among liberal Americans) that America "doesn't have a culture". This is a highly ethnocentric and arrogant statement that assumes some sort of universality for AMERICAN cultural norms and customs (like Thanksgiving, rodeos, easter-egg hunts, high school proms...let alone the miriad of everyday social norms that are unique to American culture). For Americans to say "we don't have a culture", it's like someone from Kansas City telling someone from Memphis "I don't have an accent, but YOU do" (well, to folks in Memphis, people in Kansas City certainly do have an accent). In reality, everyone has an accent, and everyone has a culture.
The majority ethnic group (White English-speakers), also refuses to see itself as an ethnic group, despite a common ancestry (16th-early20th century European settlers) and disctinct culture that separates them not only from the rest of the world, but even from Black Americans. In fact the term "ethnic" is grossly misused in American public discourse, to denote ethnic minorities and foreingers/immigrants...as if the White English-speaking majority are not, themselves, an ETHNIC GROUP. As one of those immigrant-descended "ethnic" persons myself, I can't tell you enough times how much I LOATHE that word "ethnic", specifically when it's misused to apply to persons who don't belong to American's ethnic majority. Call me foreign or immigrant, but please don't call me "ethnic".
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126. At 6:33pm on 12 Sep 2009, fluffytale wrote:
lol squirrellist I think this parrots dead
No, just pining for the Fords . . .
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Ref 128, Skye
"...if they meet a white Spaniard, white Argentine, black Dominican, or Asian Peruvian, they'll be confused, and they'll say to that person that he/she "doesn't look Hispanic".
You are right. When I told my next door neighbor that my ancestry is from Spain he told me that was impossible, he added that I was white and that my family probably came from Portugal!
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127 NO you never figured on the american people.
I mR Know nothing judged them better and said "he's a winner"
Just like today. There are way more who do believe in health care for all.
I have more faith in the minds of humans than you.
Though I'd like to think All americans are as thick as it gets, I don't.
I think"they are people" and I don't see people in as dark a light as you do,, automatically.
given time I see some are useless.
You guys going on and on about acorn are quite nutty
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Lincoln Mercury.
boat with the handling of a pig with lipstick.
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Apparently no one will ever buy them crazy forn cars because they are not big enough to fit in.
Also the environment is of no concern .
Then there was the "fact" that ww3 and ww4 have already happened. didn't you know that?
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Mark why not have tread
"MA most ridiculous comments"
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130 St Dom sorry to laugh but that ignorance is funny.
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*But it strikes me as odd that someone born in Spain would be considered in a separate racial category from an Italian or German, but the same as, say, a Columbian or a Dominican of largely African descent.*
Mark, if in France you fill in an application form for some important public service job by stressing on the fact that you are Algerian born and that you are a very orthodox Muslim, your chances to get the job are zero. It goes the same in Germany if you declare to be a Turk born who visits regularly the Mohamed tomb in Mecca.
I think our European procedures of considering every individual’s qualities by starting with the race & religion check, by gathering evidences for his real place of birth etc., are not quite acceptable for the USA. Even here, in little Bulgaria, the authorities carefully study whether the candidate is Muslim or Christian orthodox in order to make sure that our silly system of political quotas is applied or not. This said, I think friend that if in Europe every third of your attempts to open hot debates by firing salvos, like *The Pandora box*, proved to be a success, in the States, it may provoke, at the best, a sincere laugh… Be careful.
Generalissimo Franco
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Nope, no sense of humor whatsoever. I gave all of you every opportunity but unless I missed a posting, not one person said; "press pound for British."
Fluff, still stuck on the thing about the plane. I'll say it a-gain...the rain in Spain is mostly on your brain. In the 1960s, the US developed a military transport, the C-5A which was approximately the size and had the lift capability of an Airbus A380. The Soviets had an even larger plane. At any time, either nation could have relatively easily built a commercial version for carrying passengers and cargo but neither did because nobody felt there was a market large enough for such a plane to justify the investment in it. Clearly avionics have changed enormously since the 1960s and like other planes of that era, the B-52 for example, current configurations internally no longer bear any resemblance to the original versions as they have been periodically upgraded. The A380 like most expensive European projects (the millenium dome and European Space agency for example) appears to have been developed largely as a matter of ego, the French especially have been jealous of the Boeing 747 since its first appearance around 1969. Also, the French were very angry that US airlines did not order any Concorde SSTs. Had they followed the American debate over its own SST program which was cancelled around 1970 by Congress much to everyone's relief, it would not have come as a surprise to them. It also probaby would have been a relatively easy matter to build a commercial version of the supersonic B70 Valkyrie of which only two production planes were ever built. Both were operational by around 1970. A commercial version of the SR71 Blackbird would have been more problematic for many reasons. That plane could fly higher and faster than any of them taking passengers for the thrill of a trip to the edge of outer space.
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127. At 6:36pm on 12 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
fluff;
The only one I acknowledge is that I posted on William Crawley's blog site that Obama would not get elected. I later posted the obvious, that I had been wrong about that. It seemed highly improbable at the time. This was early on in the campaign when there were scads of candidates for the Democratic Party nomination and it looked like Hillary Clinton was a shoe in. Of course I never figured on Acorn."
Never figured a black person would ever be elected more like. Haven't quite got over it either have you.
Obama must have stolen the elction, he could not have won fairly could he?
No matter how you cut it you were completely and utterely wrong which makes your constant pretension to speak for Americans a little dubious.
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128. At 6:44pm on 12 Sep 2009, skye_eg
Well, I looked at the US Census link too, and it totally confused me. Wouldn't a "Pacific Islander' potentially be 'Polynesian'? Instead of what appears to be one of 56 or so possible combinations of both race and ethnicity?
It seems ridiculous that the one word 'hispanic' seems to be commonly used to identify anyone from south of a single line of latitude (or east of a line of longitude!) because of their language or a specific colonial history. Brazilians speak Portuguese but are very racially diverse, and ethnically and culturally very distinct from Portugal.
Me, I'm white Caucasian if anybody needs to know. Or white European if you want to go by whatever ancestry I know about. Doesn't matter if that's in England where I'm among a majority, or in Kenya or Jamaica where I wouldn't be, as far as I can see. Not even Michael Jackson's surgeons could turn me into anything else.
(Though I wouldn't mind looking like a very good friend of mine from Botswana, or another from Mauritius, I must say. Why should they be the ones to turn girls' heads when we're out together?)
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fluff, I'll put my Mark VIII LSC up against your British car any day. Unless you've got a Jag built on a high end Ford platform, I think I've got you beat. We'll see who gets the most speeding tickets.
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Simple Simon;
While I admit that I am on (rare) occasion wrong as in my prediction that Obama would not get elected, it is even rarer (virtually never) that you are right. Why did I think Obama would not get elected? Many reasons. First, there was the fact that it appeared to most people including the "expert" media pundits who watch American politics (I'm not talking about BBC gawkers, I'm talking about Americans who actully know this game from the inside having spent most of their lives studying it or working inside it themselves) that Hillary Clinton would be the Democratic Party nominee. Also, Obama was practically an unknown. He had little exposure or experience on the national political stage, having only spent at that point no more than about two years in Congress. He was by far the most liberal of all the candidates, a position which has not been very popular in the American body politic. And yes, I thought America would not vote for an African American in sufficient numbers to elect him even if he had been qualified, I didn't think the social development of America had advanced that far yet to where race would not be a deciding factor.
If you read my posting from before the election, you will see that I was consistently of the opinion than none of the candidates including the two nominees of the major parties were competent enough to be qualified to be the President of the United States. That is why I didn't vote. Do I hope President Obama has a successful presidency? Of course I do. Do I think he will? Only in the light of history will it be possible to make that judgement in all likelihood but indications so far give definite cause for concern.
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"Boeing being subsidized..."
In case somebody hasn't noticed, WTO Tribunal has just determined that Airbus' R&D has been illegaly subsidized by several EU member-states.
But despite that we are yet to see even a single A-350.
Perhaps Airbus has applied American Stealth technology to it?
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LOL MA
You'll be spinning around like you were on a new jersey turn pike.
LOL and when I reach the destination on one tank of gas and you're still doing doughnuts trying to keep the boat in a straight line while using gas up at no badies rate.
Cars are about more than what you assume. Obviously because no one wqants the cars you keep trying to defend.
On the planes.
Again lol. here you go again. better refine it more I can always get your posts from back in july last years to show what yuo were saying and how it differs from todays post.
IE it was a lot longer and just as much rubbish.
The Airbus is made from carbon fibre and has way better milage.
etc etc etc.
Full of it. and now not content with being the cone hat wearing corner boy you come back with yet another pile of excuses.
141
Here you admit to the lack of originality in your posts.
"
First, there was the fact that it appeared to most people including the "expert" media pundits who watch American politics that Hillary Clinton would be the Democratic Party nominee. "
I left out the pathetic attempt at insult. But would agree that JW seemed as clueless as you as to what was happening.
So How is it that someone as out of touch as me and as wrong as me got it right from day one.
And it's s till proving right. The american people are letting him down.
Your excuse
" but those that told me what to think got it wrong"
I don't need an excuse because I got it right;)
" Do I hope President Obama has a successful presidency? Of course I do."
Well done. Finally you are learning.
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142 I had noticed but as you note it is generally the americans that like to complain about subsidies even though they engage in subsidising their industry all the time.
Federal projects---American steel.
Boeing federal dollars all the way.
See if you were not so hypocritical we would not have to point out that you are.
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130. At 6:51pm on 12 Sep 2009, saintDominick:
When I signed up for an (American-owned) web chat thingy, I found out of at least a hundred options (or so it seemed) I could describe myself as "Northern European', 'Southern European', 'British', or -- very mystifyingly--"British Islander'. (I've often wondered whether they think someone from the Shetlands. the Isle of Man, or St Helena possibly, might be really, really racially different. . .)
I'm pretty sure (unless my parents have totally misled me) I'm all four of those. (One could even choose 'Western European', which presumably caters for people of the Iberiian Peninsula, but I can't see why. Ireland is fairly westerly after all.) But I could only choose one. Still don't know if I picked the 'right' one.
I've come across that since in all sorts of unexpected places. As though it's an extended cut-and-paste of the US Census categories. What's most disturbing to me about it, is that I can't help but feel people are being subtly divided into 'light' and 'dark'. And I still wonder what sort of impression people might have of me as a result. (No suggestions from Auntie Blanche's little boy, please.)
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47. At 00:53am on 12 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Spaniards destroyed more native American civilizations than any other European nation. The Incas and the Aztec for a start. Spain was the greatest curse on the New World, even more than Britain and France. The United States of America ended the last vesiges of Spanish colonial rule in the Western Hemisphere by defeating Spain in the Spanish American war early in the 20th century kicking them out of Cuba and Puerto Rico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_colonization_of_the_Americas "
Interesting morals. So its not genccide that is the problem, its how many you do.
The Spanish annihalate the pueblos, so this makes the Sand creek massacre OK.
So murder, is OK if you keep the numbers below Bonny and Clyde?
More Caucescu morality?
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110 fluffytale-
You missed my whole point. Obviously words have meanings. But expecting exact and static meanings is going to be futile. And the whole “American should learn that or revert to grunting” part of your comment is silly. You’re so busy posting your brain isn’t keeping up with your hands.
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137. At 7:08pm on 12 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Nope, no sense of humor whatsoever. I gave all of you every opportunity but unless I missed a posting, not one person said; "press pound for British."
Fluff, still stuck on the thing about the plane. I'll say it a-gain...the rain in Spain is mostly on your brain. In the 1960s, the US developed a military transport, the C-5A which was approximately the size and had the lift capability of an Airbus A380. The Soviets had an even larger plane. At any time, either nation could have relatively easily built a commercial version for carrying passengers and cargo but neither did because nobody felt there was a market large enough for such a plane to justify the investment in it. Clearly avionics have changed enormously since the 1960s and like other planes of that era, the B-52 for example, current configurations internally no longer bear any resemblance to the original versions as they have been periodically upgraded. The A380 like most expensive European projects (the millenium dome and European Space agency for example) appears to have been developed largely as a matter of ego, the French especially have been jealous of the Boeing 747 since its first appearance around 1969. Also, the French were very angry that US airlines did not order any Concorde SSTs."
The French of course being obsessed with the US, as is every single person on the Planet.
Sadly no. As a country the French are interested in advancing French interests, not in futile expressions of rage.
"Had they followed the American debate over its own SST program which was cancelled around 1970 by Congress much to everyone's relief."
But not the relief of those who were going to build the plane. So "everyone" in this sense being "some people" in ordinary parlance.
" That plane could fly higher and faster than any of them taking passengers for the thrill of a trip to the edge of outer space."
.
The biggest thrill being the immense cost of the trip.
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"[Trajan's] was an empire bound together not by culture or identity but law and language.
I've been pondering about that for a while, and I'm not so sure that's entirely true.
After all, Roman architecture (whether it was a Forum, a bath house or a gladiatorial ring and what went on in them) were pretty universal from Syria to North Africa, from the Iberian peninsula to Ultima Thule, weren't they? And wouldn't that be a 'cultural binding, too?
Even though as we know from parts of the empire (although the actual physical evidence for Celtic cultures that's survived seems to be little more than spells and curses) the locals by and large carried on much as they had before.
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#140. MarcusAureliusII: "I'll put my Mark VIII LSC up against your British car any day."
How about my Bentley? All British, pre-Volkswagen and far more attractive. Many years ago I did have Lincoln Continental but, nice as it was, not up to the standard of a fine British motorcar.
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141. At 7:31pm on 12 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon;
While I admit that I am on (rare) occasion wrong as in my prediction that Obama would not get elected, it is even rarer (virtually never) that you are right. Why did I think Obama would not get elected? Many reasons. First, there was the fact that it appeared to most people including the "expert" media pundits who watch American politics (I'm not talking about BBC gawkers, I'm talking about Americans who actully know this game from the inside having spent most of their lives studying it or working inside it themselves) that Hillary Clinton would be the Democratic Party nominee."
Hmm but the pundits did not all say this did they?
So that is as we say a mistruth.
"Also, Obama was practically an unknown. He had little exposure or experience on the national political stage, having only spent at that point no more than about two years in Congress. He was by far the most liberal of all the candidates, a position which has not been very popular in the American body politic. And yes, I thought America would not vote for an African American in sufficient numbers to elect him even if he had been qualified, I didn't think the social development of America had advanced that far yet to where race would not be a deciding factor."
Well we have evidence that for some Americans this failure to acknowledge his political ability still prevails.
"If you read my posting from before the election, you will see that I was consistently of the opinion than none of the candidates including the two nominees of the major parties were competent enough to be qualified to be the President of the United States. That is why I didn't vote."
I did read your postings and you did seem to have trouble with accepting Obama would win.
Even when to some (most) of us it was as clear as day he would win - especially after he defeated Hilary Clinton. He was plainly a brilliant campaigner - and so he remains.
And did you not imply that Obama won the election not due to skill but due to Acorn, a ludicrous suggestion.
The implication being that "he" could not win fairly because he had no real skills.
" Do I hope President Obama has a successful presidency? Of course I do. Do I think he will? Only in the light of history will it be possible to make that judgement in all likelihood but indications so far give definite cause for concern."
Concern or no you references t
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149. At 8:59pm on 12 Sep 2009, squirrellist wrote:
"[Trajan's] was an empire bound together not by culture or identity but law and language.
I've been pondering about that for a while, and I'm not so sure that's entirely true.
After all, Roman architecture (whether it was a Forum, a bath house or a gladiatorial ring and what went on in them) were pretty universal from Syria to North Africa, from the Iberian peninsula to Ultima Thule, weren't they? And wouldn't that be a 'cultural binding, too?"
You are right. There is the little point of the economy which saw the whole of Europe trading with the ME with one currency and monetary system.
And then of course there was the issue of religion.
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128. At 6:44pm on 12 Sep 2009, skye_eg wrote:
"It's .....................
The majority ethnic group (White English-speakers), also refuses to see itself as an ethnic group, despite a common ancestry (16th-early20th century European settlers) and disctinct culture that separates them not only from the rest of the world, but even from Black Americans. In fact the term "ethnic" is grossly misused in American public discourse, to denote ethnic minorities and foreingers/immigrants...as if the White English-speaking majority are not, themselves, an ETHNIC GROUP. As one of those immigrant-descended "ethnic" persons myself, I can't tell you enough times how much I LOATHE that word "ethnic", specifically when it's misused to apply to persons who don't belong to American's ethnic majority. Call me foreign or immigrant, but please don't call me "ethnic". "
That is just nonsense! White Americans constitute a racial group within one country but certainly not an ethnic group in the way that Italian Americans, African Americans or Mexican Americans do despite the diversity within those groups. I would suggest you look one of the many definitions of the term ethnic group and you will see that lumping all 200 million plus Americans who are white and non-Hispanic into an ethnic group is nonsense. An ethnic group that includes groups as diverse as Italian American catholics in New York, Jewish American Californians of eastern European descent, WASP New Englanders Episcopalians and white protestants with centuries-long roots in Appalachia would defy any definition of the term. It seems to me you are trying to define all white Americans as an ethnic group and ignore that racial group's diversity to point out the differences between them and the mostly Latino immigrants now coming into the country and thereby give strength to the ridiculous argument that America's traditional culture is under threat from growth of Hispanic communities; which traditional culture? The United States has always been a mosaic of ethnic groups. Even at the founding of our country when the population was relatively homogenous America was a collection of British, Irish, German, Dutch, and African descended groups. Yes most of the ethnic groups arriving now are Spanish speaking but the idea that somehow these Hispanic immigrants (unlike the Southern and Eastern European immigrants who came at the start of the last century) will destroy the ideals and institutions that hold America together is based on racism and ignorance.
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150. At 9:02pm on 12 Sep 2009, David_Cunard
Don't start him off on that again, for heaven's sake. I saw a Chrysler something-or-other last week. Same shape as a Bentley--not the sexy sporty one, one of the older types--same kind of headlights, even an almost indistinguishable radiator grille. What is it they say about imitation and flattery?
(The Romans depended on it, after all, to keep the empire going. Probably.)
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153, demlon:
I think I recognise the sound of a nail being hit on the head.
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153:
Except, no doubt they will change"the ideals and institutions that hold America together" over time.
Could that be what some people are afraid of? (As some are here.) People probably said that after 1066, but it turned out all right. (I think . . .)
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The undocumented immigrants (as opposed to "illegal aliens") who make it here have overcome massive obstacles just to get here. Lazy, shiftless people don't undertake such perilous journeys. Perhaps it is this introduction of a new hardy stock (people once again willing to work very hard at difficult and unpleasant jobs) into our population that is frightening to so many. Might make them look useless by comparison.
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I refer to people from Spain as Spanish and people from Mexico as Hispanic, as some of their vocabulary and traditions are different. I am not racist toward the Spanish or the Mexican population, but at the same time, I am wary of so many illegal immigrants who do not pay taxes, know our driving laws or speak our language. I do not believe that we should mistreat or harass illegal immigrants, but I do believe that they do not belong in our country, as the reasoned mentioned above. There should be a limit every year on how many immigrants there are, so there is only a certain number let in. I think it's okay for an immigrant to become a U.S. citizen if they pay taxes, learn our driving and other laws, swear on the Bible that they are loyal to the U.S., and speak English only while in public. However, most illegal immigrants do not follow these laws and that is why they are banned from our country. There have been incidences of illegal immigrants getting in traffic accidents and killing U.S. citizens because they do not understand our driving laws and cannot read the English signs. I am accepting of legal immigrants, as long as there is a limit on them. If they go unlimited and keep coming into our country illegally, then I feel they should be shipped back to their country immediatly. We are a country of immigrants, but our country is full. Illegal immigrants need to go back to their own homeland. If they want to come here, they have to apply the legal way.Otherwise, the U.S. citizens will never accept them.
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Mark Mardell.
Here we go again: Pedro Mendendez De Aviles got here first.
I bet the natives coudn't wait to celebrate the event with a turkey and mash potato feast.
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156. At 9:43pm on 12 Sep 2009, squirrellist wrote:
153:
Except, no doubt they will change"the ideals and institutions that hold America together" over time.
Could that be what some people are afraid of? (As some are here.) People probably said that after 1066, but it turned out all right. (I think . . .)"
If they are, better get used to it, its happening. The US looks more like a Latin country every year. The food will improve of course, and the dancing, but also important things like catholic values will replace the declining protestant ones.
Hopefuly its politics will be more like Costa Rica than Guatamela - but the signs are not hopefull. The polarisation of politics in the US (as demonstrated in the current debates) is very reminiscent of South and Central America.
No suprises of course. The US should by rights be a Latin country, its only by a series of accidents it is not.
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119. At 6:11pm on 12 Sep 2009, GreySquirrel1867 wrote:
Marcus:
Which end of the Northern United States do suppose the innuendo goes?
-----
The US as a whole, that be would be New Orleans. Just in the north, that would be either Detroit or Newark, take your pick.
Oh, and I agree with you on the remarks about MAII. I don't often agree with his opinions, but they well thought and to the point. I guess some people can't handle that and are unable to come up with any kind of argument against him, and spend more time trying to get others to ignore him than arguing against his points. Most likely because they, in their superior wisdom, can't seem to be able to.
------
Oh, Stellar #15:
You might want to keep that under your hat, your liberal friends might start to see you as a capitalistic infiltrator and spy for the right-wingers!
-----
I have no idea where the use of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish came into use to describe south/central Americans. Most people of South/Central descent that I've known and worked with take offense to all and any of them. They consider them European monikers (correctly, it seems by this thread) not to applied to them. They considered themselves South or Central "Americans", or more precisely, they prefer to be referred to by their country of origin (Mexican, Guatamalian, Hondurian, ect.).
And if anyone really wants to split hairs, calling white Europeans Caucasian isn't totally correct. Caucasian's are from the caucuses, an area between the Black and Caspian Sea. An area comprising mostly of Georgia, southern most Russia, northern most Iran, and a slew of "stans". They are more closely related to Arabs and Asians than European. DNA scientist are currently trying to clean up neanderthal DNA to see if their are traces of their DNA in western Europeans, as it is now believed when the the of the steppes moved onto Western Europe they did not conquer neanderthal, but bred with them. This would make them (and me) unique and separate (and kinda freakish really, I could be part caveman? I guess I should switch my car insurance!)race from the Caucasians of the northern Middle East.
Just splitting hairs.
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face it, their are many languages spoken within the united states from all over the world, spanish being the most popular due to the US closeness to other spanish speaking nations. However, I highly doubt that anyone would be complaining if these spanish speakers came from spain but since many of these migrants are coloured and migrating from mexico, who are often stereotyped as maids and farm workers and so on many zenophobic and often racist citizens are upset about it. In places where central americans often migrate to, it is often in the less liberal southern states who do not like anyone or anything coming into their space with different cultures or attitudes.
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160. At 10:29pm on 12 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:
"Hopefuly its politics will be more like Costa Rica than Guatamela"
Or, even better, Venezuela?
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57, 62, 67, 72, 78, PM and St. D.
St. D.: Are you near New Smyrna?
Cortez may have left a trail of blood, but he was not in the same league as Pizarro.
Of the early explorers there were brigands, opportunists, smugglers (or "anti-monopolists", pirates or adventurers depending on your point of view - Columbus, Magellan, Hawkins, Drake, Anson, D'Iberville); mad men (La Salle, Coronado); fools (Dollard Des Ormeaux, Breboeuf); businessmen (Hudson, Radisson & Grosseillers, Thompson, Mackenzie, Fraser, La Verendrye); commissioned explorers (Cartier, Cabot, Frobisher, Cooke, Vancouver, Lewis & Clark, Franklin); and even a small number who were profoundly decent men (Samuel de Champlain).
Pizarro was plain undiluted evil.
In our present day context he would be readily recognizable as the equivalent of a mafia boss - a ruthless, murderous thug. Lived and ruled through treachery and horrific violence. Had no morality other than greed.
He gave a running start to a history of violence and injustice that has ever since plagued every land in the Americas in which he set foot. It is hard to know how or where you would even begin to total up the negative externalities that have arisen from this man's deeds.
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Cunard;
"How about my Bentley?"
Don't know, can't say. The Mark VIII LSC is not a Continental or a Town Car. Nothing like either of them, more like a Mustang Mach. (They tell me the reason they don't make it anymore is that it was unpopular because it was a two door mid sized car.) It's built for handling and speed. There are many variants of the 4.6 liter engine. I wanted a 95 LSC but couldn't get one. That one is 345 HP. This one is only 290. It's rated 0-60 in 6.9 seconds but I've clocked mine at just under 6. It handles very well, surprising for a nearly 4000 pound car yet it gets 20 MPH real world. It needs expensive H rated tires. I'm sure you know what those are if you own a fast car in the US but I don't know if Europeans have a comparable tire rating system. How about you Bentley, same thing? My mechanic friend who knew the car well (and sadly was killed) told me the real world top speed is around 140 but I never drove it over 100. He used to repair among other cars, police squad cars...and test drove them at top speed too. It's expensive to buy insurance for this car. Once I considered buying a used Rolls Royce. Insurance wasn't bad...if you drove it under 4000 miles a year. There are a surprising number on e-bay motors and some at reasonable prices too. Didn't make sense for me though. Totally impractical for my needs. Don't know what I'll replace it with when the time comes. Never owned a foreign car or anything with an engine less than 8 cylinders. It's against my religion. Perhaps I'll take a look at the new Taurus SHO, even if it's a six. I think it's turbo charged again just like in the old days.
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161. At 10:29pm on 12 Sep 2009, Snagletooth
Tempted though I am to credit the survival of Neanderthal characteristics, particularly in some parts of the world, I am sorry to say there is no evidence for it whatsoever:
[sequencing stats etc. omitted]
"This indicates no closer a relationship with Europeans than with the other modern human subsets considered.
The comparison . . .indicate[s] a divergence of the human and Neanderthal lineages long before the most recent common mtDNA ancestor of humans.
Based on the estimated divergence date of 4-5 million years ago for humans and chimpanzees, the authors estimate the human and Neanderthal divergence at 550,000-690,000 years ago.
The age of the common human ancestor, using the same procedure, is about 120,000-150,000 years ago."
[1997, confirmed by DNA from a different Neanderthal source in 2000 in an article in Nature.]
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161. At 10:29pm on 12 Sep 2009, Snagletooth wrote:
-----
I have no idea where the use of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish came into use to describe south/central Americans. Most people of South/Central descent that I've known and worked with take offense to all and any of them. They consider them European monikers (correctly, it seems by this thread) not to applied to them. They considered themselves South or Central "Americans", or more precisely, they prefer to be referred to by their country of origin (Mexican, Guatamalian, Hondurian, ect.).
And if anyone really wants to split hairs, calling white Europeans Caucasian isn't totally correct. Caucasian's are from the caucuses, an area between the Black and Caspian Sea. An area comprising mostly of Georgia, southern most Russia, northern most Iran, and a slew of "stans". They are more closely related to Arabs and Asians than European. DNA scientist are currently trying to clean up neanderthal DNA to see if their are traces of their DNA in western Europeans, as it is now believed when the the of the steppes moved onto Western Europe they did not conquer neanderthal, but bred with them. This would make them (and me) unique and separate (and kinda freakish really, I could be part caveman? I guess I should switch my car insurance!)race from the Caucasians of the northern Middle East.
Just splitting hairs. "
You need to be careful about making defnitive statements re: DNA. The problem lies in the interpretation.
EG it was presumed that the supposed DNA similarity between NE English and Scandanavia was due to Viking conquest.
But it has since been argued that this is simplistic - the similarity might be from much earlier migrations - and it might have been from West to East.
All historical DNA can tell you is that there is a relation - but not the precise nature of that relationship.
And surely the Jury is still very much out on the intereaction of Cro Magnon and Neanderthals - I understand there is no definitive evidence - though it has been almost proved that Neanderthals could and probably did talk - so one large supposed difference falls away.
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Looks like the new Bentleys run about 530 to 600 hp.
http://www.carsdirect.com/bentley
Canard, which model and what year do you have?
Here's a used one that's entirely affordable. A real alternative to a Lexus, BMW 5 series, or an Infinity
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
My boss drives a Lexus. Not the TOTL model, it doesn't have quite the performance but it's a nice car anyway.
It's got a 6.75 liter 300 hp V8.
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#162. moderate_observer: "since many of these migrants are coloured and migrating from mexico, who are often stereotyped as maids and farm workers and so on many zenophobic and often racist citizens are upset about it."
It would be of interest to know where you live; from your spelling it would seem that it is not in Southern California or even the United States. If you lived in areas where the situation exists, you would be better informed of the problems which "undocumented workers" bring with them and also the substantial numbers of Mexican and other Hispanic arrivals who never learn to speak or read English. Supermarkets, advertising billboards (hoardings), banks, beer manufacturers and all manner of commercial enterprises sell their product in Spanish - there is a recently introduced ice-cream made by Nestle which is marketed directly to Spanish speaking customers with nary a word of English on the container - but the other frozen products are in English. If I moved to Mexico, I would not expect to see so much in my own language but would feel the necessity of learning Spanish. It is a significant problem for a nation in which English remains the primary language. It is not a case of xenophobic or racist citizenry but rather that a distinct minority is being catered to at the expense of the majority of English speaking consumers.
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160. At 10:29pm on 12 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:
156. At 9:43pm on 12 Sep 2009, squirrellist wrote:
153: Except, no doubt they will change"the ideals and institutions that hold America together" over time.
Could that be what some people are afraid of? (As some are here.) People probably said that after 1066, but it turned out all right. (I think . . .)"
If they are, better get used to it, its happening. The US looks more like a Latin country every year. The food will improve of course, and the dancing, but also important things like catholic values will replace the declining protestant ones. Hopefuly its politics will be more like Costa Rica than Guatamela - but the signs are not hopefull. The polarisation of politics in the US (as demonstrated in the current debates) is very reminiscent of South and Central America.
No suprises of course. The US should by rights be a Latin country, its only by a series of accidents it is not."
On second read, a good post. For the reasons for the reaction, see mine posted in the dead of night. At #50.
As by a series of accidents Britain now speaks English.
Kscurmudgeon
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163. At 11:39pm on 12 Sep 2009, squirrellist wrote:
160. At 10:29pm on 12 Sep 2009, Simon21 wrote:
"Hopefuly its politics will be more like Costa Rica than Guatamela"
Or, even better, Venezuela?"
Ideally but I cannot see the US is ready yet for a native head of state lke Venezuela or Ecuador.
In fact I do not even think there is one in the Senate.
But give them another hundred years or so and they may catch up
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"The Mark VIII LSC" My word, that is one ugly looking car! I thought the point of coupes was they looked good? Can see why the US Auto Industry is struggling if that's the kind of stuff they come up with.
"Never owned a foreign car or anything with an engine less than 8 cylinders." Which is exactly why you're not qualified to comment on them.
Isn't it time to get back to your Royal COnspiracy theories? I heard the Queen Mum is alive and well, and is living on the moon.
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Canard, do you have problems getting service on your Bentley? That was one of my concerns about owning a Rolls. Not that many dealers or places that can service it. I also wondered about parts availability. BTW, the broken URL was an ad for a 1997 Bentley Brooklands model that had about 40,000 miles on it for around $45,000 asking price. You can search Cars Drirect for it. It's from a dealer on Long Island around 65 miles from my house. Would definitely be a candidate for a replacement if I needed one right now. Very attractive price IMO for what you are getting.
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Simeon21 #167,
I agree, DNA would not prove a congenial and happy co-existence. I didn't mean to make is sound as if it was a definitive and proven fact, just that there is speculation and evidence that there was some intermingling and people are doing research. The idea isn't completely without possibility, though. The problem is getting through all the years of contaminated DNA before they can even start to compare. We may have been distant cousins, that doesn't mean genetically that we weren't compatible.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/323657.stm
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I wish someone would tell me (us, even) just how many people (or what proportion of Spanish speakers) in the US are bilingual. Might help with a bit of perspective. I seem to be getting the impression there are millions on millions of Americans who speak and read nothing but Spanish, and that seems implausible.
It appears to be colouring the debate. As you might say.
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crosseyes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Frankly I never buy cars by the way they look. If I did, I'd buy a Caddilac Eldorado Biaritz from about 1983 to 1985. IMO that was one sharp looking car. Here's a link if it doesn't break to an 84 convertable. Red interior, white exterior, very sharp looking. Has about 105,000 miles on it asking $3,100 or more on e-bay motors.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1984-ELDORADO-BIARRITZ-CONVERTIBLE_W0QQitemZ220477811288QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3355806a58&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245
Here's an 85 gold hardtop. 68,000 miles asking $1800. One day left to bid and no takers. America is drowning in new and used cars.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SHARP-ORIGINAL-1985-CADILLAC-CAR-Priced-to-SELL_W0QQitemZ270453499682QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3ef848e722&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245
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174. Snagletooth
Unless I'm mistaken that was disproved later.
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#173. MarcusAureliusII: "Canard, do you have problems getting service on your Bentley? That was one of my concerns about owning a Rolls."
No problems here, but possibly that's because, being "Hollywood", there are quite a few Rolls and Bentleys around. The (older) Brooklands is a lovely vehicle and certainly the mileage (or lack of it) is very good. Much more handsome than the vehicle bearing the same name from VW. The ride is not the same as a Lincoln and you may find it insufficiently soft, it's a criticism sometimes made. It is/was considered to be a "performance" car and it certainly can go! The Rolls of the same era were virtually identical; I'd do some research and take a test drive. Be warned though, it's not a car one can take to your local Instant Lube and Oil shop, so upkeep can be more expensive than more economical US (and Japanese) cars. As for a Lexus, does it look like something special? I don't think so!
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The Houston newspaper recently had an article about the government bureaucrat who coined the term "Hispanic". She was a "Hispanic" herself, and was trying to find a term that was more generic and nuetral than terms like Chicano or Mexican-American or Latino or other ethnic terms that were used at the time. I think that she was retiring from work and was quite proud that she had been part of creating the term "Hispanic" so that the government could count them. I wish I could remember more details because she discussed why Hispanic was better than Latino. I think it was because she thought Latino implied European heritage while many Hispanics have black or native-American heritage.
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Canard, what I posted above that was deleted was the fact that I do not buy cars based on appearance. If I did, I'd choose a Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz from 1983 to 1985. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The posting was deleted because it had links to e-bay motors on it. Either that's a violation of the rules or there is some technical problem with it. You can scan for that model yourself, these cars are not very expense and some have been kept in near mint condition. Of course to get them to really go, you'd probably have to replace the power train and I don't know if their handling can be substantially improved. Since I don't have much interest in cars it's of no importance to me.
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179 houston096:
"Latino" always makes me wince. "Latin America"=that part of the continent speaking a Latin language, surely? Covers everything.
Anyway, never could see what was wrong with "South America[n]".
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Re #165 "Perhaps I'll take a look at the new Taurus SHO, even if it's a six. I think it's turbo charged again just like in the old days."
MA, New Ford Taurus is "a BMW at Ford price". You may like it.
[249 HP + 110 HP turbocharger, but still meeting new EPA standards]
Plus front and back warning radar, derived from the one F-22 Raptor is equipped with. :-)
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Re #153 demlon wrote:
"Yes most of the ethnic groups arriving now are Spanish speaking but the idea that somehow these Hispanic immigrants (unlike the Southern and Eastern European immigrants who came at the start of the last century) will destroy the ideals and institutions that hold America together is based on racism and ignorance."
At Saturday 100 000 strong demonstration in Washigton, D.C., against Obama's scheme, a sign held up by an immigrant from Ukraine, said: "I had enough of socialism in the USSR."
Now, this immigrant and others like him could be a real threat to the ideals and institutions which hold American Democratic Party together.;-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm back in the USSR
You don't know how happy you are, boy
Back in the US, back in in the US
Back in the USSR"
(The Beatles)
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I wish Marcus Aurelius II didn't go so overboard. Sometimes he writes posts that are generally correct (in my opinion), but then blows up his argument by writing in a puffed up manner. I don't find the snarky comments by others about him to be particularly constructive either. Grow up, people.
Simon21, squirrelist, and fluffytale are sort of the anti-MAII. Not only are they antagonistic toward MA, but they are his leftist analogues (following the when-in-Rome idea, I will try to use British English on this British website to the best of my ability). They also present absurd views while writing with such certitude that they are right.
Examples:
(1) pointing out the dearth of Native American politicians in the U.S. by comparisons to Venezuela - while the percentage of indigenes in both countries is apparently the same (around 1%), I don't think Chavez exactly counts as one (he's 'mixed' and the majority of the population is mestizo). Add onto this that Chavez is incompetent and squandered the oil wealth his government obtained before the global recession, and he isn't exactly a 'native' politician to be proud of.
(2) Why should the U.S. naturally be a Latino/Hispanic country culturally? Because of the Treaty of Tordesillas? It is true that Spanish America at one point extended all the way to what is now Canada on paper. However, the Spanish (and later the Mexicans) never really exerted much control in northern North America, especially the non-Florida part. The Russians even had an illegal (by European treaties/laws) settlement in what is today Sebastopol, California. Cabot, sailing for England, arrived in 'Canada' fairly soon after Columbus.
(3) And going off-topic about Neanderthals, modern humans, and their genes is just as bad as anti-Charles comments.
With some exceptions, I usually agree - more or less - with s. Dominick, but post 57 is very flawed. The Spanish were far worse than the English and definitely the French in their treatment of the natives. Native Americans were enslaved and killed in droves - there were more advanced civilizations in their regions, which were greater threats. English and French married Native Americans and recognized the children of such unions as legitimate; several conquistadores took royal or noble women whose families considered them as the conquistadors' wives and considered them as concubines. The Spanish imposed an extraordinarily racist caste system: peninsulares, criollos, castizos, mestizos, cholos, mullatos, indios, negros, etc. that affects Latin American cultures today. While things were bad for blacks and their children (to say the least), the children of Europeans and Native Americans in British and French northern North America were - at least legally - considered no different than a fully European child. The only reason Latin America (in general) has a higher percentage of indigenes than northern North America is because that region had the overwhelming bulk of the pre-Columbian population. The Aztec and Inca Empires are estimated to have had a population of 20 million each (or 25 million Aztec, 12 million Inca), and what is now Mexico and Central America had other populous cultures, too. The estimated Native American population in today's northern North America was 1 million. The United States received far more European immigration than Mexico, Central America, and northern South America did. The tiny Native American population was simply absorbed into the larger, largely European one. Technically, I would bet most, or a large minority, of white and black Americans are part Native American.
While wrong - in that they were largely located on undesirable land - reservations were put in place to allow Native Americans to continue with their cultures and have some degree of autonomy. Reservations were not, and are not, internment camps. It is only in recent years that Latin America (including Brazil) has followed suit, setting apart some land for the indigenes to govern (in this case, largely on their ancestral lands).
Responding to squirrelist's post to me, I would use more concrete things for 'American values' than a bunch of philosophers, although obviously our (American) Declaration of Independence and Constitution are heavily based on Locke, while there are some similarities to Rousseau as well. The Founding Fathers mooched a lot off Europeans; that doesn't make the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution any less American. I don't know what squirrelist's getting at with Hobbes, Marx, or Engels - a leviathan, much less Communism, is hardly characteristic of American culture. Unless he was trying to insult me, figuring I wouldn't have a clue as to whom those people were, and trying to wow me or others with his supposedly vast education or knowledge...
[More] Concrete things: the idea that if one works hard, he or she will succeed; values and relationships are what bind people together, not genes; Thanksgiving; apple pie; fried chicken; Coca-Cola; baseball (ugh); an attitude that is generally more respectful toward and understanding of religion than our Western peers, even if one is not particularly religious. These things are not unique to the United States, but nor are they universal to every other culture. Some of these are incredibly minor, but they do make us special. Just as sport is hardly unique to Australia, yet sport is a part of Australian culture. Or how sarcasm in humour in not unique to British culture, but British humour is known for being sarcastic.
Disclaimer: the above is my opinion, although I included a fair amount of facts (estimates of the pre-Columbian population vary widely, I'll admit). I am not trying to pass off my views as incontestable - as opposed to some others here...
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In # 169 David_Cunard wrote:
"If you lived in areas where the situation exists, you would be better informed of the problems which "undocumented workers" bring with them and also the substantial numbers of Mexican and other Hispanic arrivals who never learn to speak or read English."
Many of our British cousins may not know that there have been persistent attempts (by La Raza and other Latino political action committees), to create exclusively Spanish language schools in US (most prominently in California), and even make U.S. officialy bilingual.
Such efforts would never succeed, if for no other reason than that United States doesn't have an official language (English isn't one).
Just as it doesn't have an official religion (Anglicanism isn't one).
[something in U.S. Constitution... :-)]
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in #184 AnonymousCalifornian wrote:
"I don't think Chavez exactly counts as one [indigenous leader] (he's 'mixed' and the majority of the population is mestizo). Add onto this that Chavez is incompetent and squandered the oil wealth his government obtained before the global recession, and he isn't exactly a 'native' politician to be proud of."
Mr. Chavez has just proudly announced that he has bought in Moscow T-72 and T-90 Soviet era tanks as well as "little missiles" as he described them.
Tanks obviously to help Venezuelan peons clear the jungle, while missiles - to protect them from Columbian FARC narko-rebels. ;-)
He also promised to create in his country (with Islamic Republic of Iran's help) a 'nuclear village' [his exact words uttered in Tehran]
MORE POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
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*I suppose the T-shirt shows that some feel that one of the guiding American principles - you can all come here but you've got to fit in - has been broken.*
Mark, I am trying also to give myself an answer to this evident truth. Unfortunately, I have visited the US just twice in the late 70s, and naturally, since those *old days*, I haven’t been in a direct contact with the Americans in order to make my proper assessment about the change you are reporting of now.
What strikes me in this new blog maybe shall give some explanation to this phenomenon. If you can remember, when being in London, you managed to gather several tens (even several hundreds) of regular bloggers from the whole continent. I recall being in permanent chatting with one Russian girl (Alice), with a man from Finland (Jukka), with a boy from Denmark (Mathiasen), with several Germans, with several Poles, with one Jew (Dr.Eiffel), with many Britons (like Threnodio), and of course, with many Americans (including our omnipresent fellow blogger MarcusAureliusII). I still miss all of them. They would come to discuss the issues you had launched with enough knowledge, zeal and arguments what made your previous blog very, very interesting. Now I start understanding the difference. We, the European folks, we are still embarrassed with our own national traditions, a fact which does prevent us from shaping some relatively correct and acceptable point of view that would be useful to the European community (I do not mind only the EU). At the same time, I noticed that the crushing majority of your US bloggers here are very educated individuals who gather around a bunch of values that nobody tries to revise. One of those values seems to be: *If this is good for everybody, let it pass*. The Americans seem to be more pragmatic than us, the European folks. They easily abandon practices and rules which would prevent somehow the natural progress of their society. Compared to them, we are too conservative and shy.
Generalissimo Franco
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Re #187... MarcusAureliusII is still here.
So am I. Perhaps not a Pole, exactly, but an American of Polish descent.
[my stepfather, incidentally, did 3 [sic] tours of duty as a RAF officer-pilot during WWII: 2 in Polish bombing squads, 1 in British Special Ops]
Not a Polish American, mind you. I share Teddy Roosevelt's view that
"All hyphenated Americans should be thrown out of the U.S."
And you [ironfranco) are right 'bout American pragmatism.
If Mr. Obama presents a reform plan which improves on the current situation, many Republicans (and Blue Dog Democrats) will vote for it.
Unfortunately, Mr. Obama relegated his responsibility as a president, and asked U.S. Congress to come with a suitable plan.
And I'm sure you know what can be concoted by 460 cooks.
And that "the camel is the horse created by a committee".
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ref #151
Obama won for many reasons:
1. Disenchament with Bush
2. It's the economy stupid
3. Well run campaign
4. Hope and change
But very few voters did because of his resume or the issues. When question many Obamaphiles (those who swoon when he appears) could not list a acomplishment or his position.
Not that many as evidences by the protests yesterday which despite the spin were not just conservatives, people are begining to see the empty suit he is.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
crosseyes;
I don't by cars by appearance. If I did, I'd buy a 1983 to 1985 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz. White with red leather interior. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This is not an expensive car. It can be had for anywhere from about $2000 to $8000 depending on condition and other factors. The deleted blog contained links to ads with photos of them. The iconic American car is the 1959 Cadillac Coupe de Ville, preferably a black convertable with red leather interior. It's the one with the two big red bullet tail lights on each side straddling the large tail fins. Remaining examples of that model are very valuable in any condition. The most comfortable riding cars I ever rode or drove in were my father's 1966 Lincoln and my next door neighbor's 1973 Lincoln Continental Mark III. I drove a 1985 Rolls Royce Silver Seraph and those two cars blew it away. The 1966 was the easiest car to drive I ever experienced. It seemed all you had to do was wish it to do something and it did it. Stepping on the brake was like putting your foot into a pillow. You could drive over a ditch or a dead body and you wouldn't feel so much as a bump. The car was so quiet and the windows tinted so dark, you were completely insulated from the road. Looking through the windshield was like watching the traffic go by on a movie screen. 80 on the highway felt like 40 in any other car. Steering as they say was numb but ever so easy. You could park it in a tight spot with your pinkie finger alone. Dark green metallic paint with a billion microscopic gold flecks, suicide doors (the rear doors were hinged at the back) black leather top, slab sides that made it a cinch to know the car's width, black leather interior, I really miss that car. Mechanically it fell apart. At the end, it spent more time in the shop than on the road. Everything that could go wrong with it did. It just had to go. Our 1960 Coupe de Ville was no match to it though. Just not the same. They don't make cars like that anymore. A Cadillac Catera with a 3.6 liter V6 we rented on a business trip in California last year couldn't get out of its own way. Horrible. A Mercury Grand Marquis we rented on another trip was a much better car.
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Mark, I'm glad you had fun in Ocean City. Tell me, are you living in Washington or the Maryland or Virginia burbs? If you're living in Maryland, I wouldn't tell anyone. That crack about Ocean City being tacky will not endear you to the locals. We would call it very laid-back. No fuss, no pretense; just fun.
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184. At 08:11am on 13 Sep 2009, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:
"following the when-in-Rome idea, I will try to use British English on this British website to the best of my ability). They also present absurd views while writing with such certitude that they are right."
I would have thought that anyone who read my posts would have realised now that I am "in Rome". The inside cover page of my passport reads "Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State requests and requires. . . "
As to being certain I'm right, I'm equally certain I'm Left.
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Going back to the original point about the rise of the Soanish language in the USA....
While to me it seems that many of the spanish-speakers who move to the USA do not speak English (and yes I know many never learn it either), their children do speak English. Their children also retain their parents language, thus being bi-lingual.
Being bi-lingual is considered an advantage on any resume.
These 2nd generation "hispanics" will have a built-in advantage over the other Americans. This may be unpalatable to many in the USA, but it makes it no less true.
Therefore why is Spanish not taught to all Americans from a very young age?
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Re #194
"Therefore why is Spanish not taught to all Americans from a very young age?"
Yes, it is.
However many here think, that Cantonese or Mandarin (or both) would be more useful in the future.
And as for prospects of U.S. ever becoming a bilingual (English/Spanish)
country, let me simply quote one of the liberal left's heroins, Dolores Ibarruri (La Pasionaria):
N O P A S A R A N!
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squirrelist: On post 181, South America is generally held here to end at the border between Colombia and Panama. Thus, South American would not accurately describe people from Panama to Mexico, or Cuba, or the Dominican Republic, &c.
However, Latin American would do so, but our cultural preference for a descriptive adjective of one word is probably what has driven our experimentation with using Chicano/Chicana, Latino/Latina, Hispanic, &c.
powermeerkat: It is true that there is no official language at the federal level, but a majority of the states have an official language at the state level. (A few of the states even have two official languages; Spanish is official in only one of those.)
The US Constitution only forbids establishment of religion at the federal level. Although no state currently has an established religion, this is not due to the First Amendment; at least one state had an established religion well into the 19th century.
ironfranco: Some historic American national traditions (e.g. judging a person solely by their genetic or cultural origins) are embarrassing to many Americans as well. We certainly have a pragmatic side to us, but it isn't all-encompassing; one need only look at the debates in the several threads here to see examples of entrenched, unyielding viewpoints. Compromise is all too often viewed as a synonym for surrender.
RomeStu: Spanish isn't taught to all Americans from a young age largely because of local preferences; much of the curriculum is still determined below the federal level. I live in an area where the second-most used language is French rather than Spanish; the town next door to mine does teach French from a relatively young age, but my village doesn't. I'd like for our elementary school to do so, but until I can convince my neighbors to pay for the salary (and health insurance) of a French teacher when we next vote on our education taxes, it's not likely to happen.
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Not that I want to be argumentative, but actually native Americans were here first.
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197. At 5:15pm on 13 Sep 2009, elagworb wrote:
"Not that I want to be argumentative, but actually Native Americans were here first."
Unfortunately, there appear to be quite a number of Native American languages, but I wonder if, given the circumstances of history, Native Americans might not prefer Spanish?
(The only contributor here afaik of Native American ancestry might help, but sadly seldom seems to post here any more. We don't hear much from Arab Americans or other recent immigrants, even from Panama or points south, equally regrettably.)
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Over two hunderd languages are spoken in the United States. I think it was Al Gore who said that recently on TV, maybe just a few months ago. English is the international language. There are multiple reasons for that, one of which was the British Empire but the widespread influence of American culture, business, science, literature since WWII has also been a major factor. When a Greek ship enters Tokyo harbor, the captain speaks to the tubboat pilot in English. When a Norweigan airline prepares to land in Shanghai, the pilot communicates with the control tower in English. Even Jacque Chirac's minister told him to get with it and speak English at an EU meeting about business and finance a couple of years ago. A few years ago, a plane from South America, I think it might have been Venezuela crashed over the Long Island Sound having run out of fuel. The aircraft crew did not speak English and could not communicate with the control tower to request an emergency landing slot.
Americans learing Spanish or any other foreign language is no asset to them. I'm not sure they even teach foreign language as a manditory course in high school anymore. Unless you go into a profession where you will be dealing with people in a foreign country in their native tongue or wish to become a professional translator it is of no help. Teaching children of Spanish speaking immigrants or any others in their own language at the same time they are taught English is not doing them any favor. If they do not learn English by the time they become adults, they will most likely not be able to function to anything like their full potential in life. Fortunately, American culture is even more pervasive and effective at assimilating foreigners within the US than it is in influencing them elsewhere around the world. Few people have difficulty for more than a short time. By the second generation, there is no discernable distinction between them and those whose ancestors have been here many generations.
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@188 powermeerkat
Your wrote: *If Mr. Obama presents a reform plan which improves on the current situation, many Republicans (and Blue Dog Democrats) will vote for it.*
Thanks for the comment. However, as far as I remember, no American president has presented a plan of such kind for approval. Even president Roosevelt in the late 20, early 30s did not engaged himself personally by interfering with the institutions’ affairs. He just urged them to act and approved of what professional economists & lawyers did suggest him as a proper salvation plan to the recession of those days.
@196 Yan_keeskop
*Compromise is all too often viewed as a synonym for surrender.*
May I ask you what would happen in a real democracy if we abandon our ability to make compromises when it comes to preserve the mere bases of the society? (Even the court of justice will not be able to control the situation.)
Generalissimo Franco
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147. Suzanne_W
Exact and static meanings are futile.
But then Ignoring the meanings is a grunt.
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A cali.
you sound like gary the pill.
Yes I'm anti MA. he's a jerk.
So what.
he lies and is dishonest.
I chose to not like that sort of crack pot.
But you make that typical republican mistake.
you try to claim we are the same.
When did I last advocate genocide. or specific terrorist plans, or indeed say that america should be nuked to save the world from themselves.
Get real.
this is the old
"I'm a moderate" bull. we have read it.
america is not so great suck it up and smell the crap.
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172 the gravities not strong enough so she lives in the moon.
you silly.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BfNqhV5hg4
suzzane W here is an example of what turned into the " I didn't mean it that way"
america is full of the "individual.
Every kid is amazing
Fat people are natural so celebrate obesity.
(thats how it went for years)
same with the ENGLISH language.
They make it up.
the empowerment of an individual means that americans will accept just about anything said if then explained in 3000 words to explain why when they said the word the really meant something else but then it means what they said it means because they said it and they are a strong and important person so who cares what the word means.
There you want more silly?
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Well, watch a zombie movie.
Have you noticed that zombie movies are the best made horror films and the best ones come from Britain?
People are worried and do not konw what to do, I think, in Europe, or else how do you explain the different nations of Europe? Now there are more nations in Europe than governments.
When people are debating the merits (and they are) of fascist/racist parties...instead of debating how to deal with their present multi- nations of Muslims, Christians, Greek Orthodox, and all the other little isms/schizms in the EU, then uhhhh ohhhh.
That is why this topic so resonates here.
Yes HERE there are intelligent, responible, thinking people writing great opinions of tolerance. But, the BNP (not a mainstraim party ..don't you think?) is gaining ground with a million votes ..IN BRITAIN??...
People there must be getting worried that they have waited toooo long to deal with the separate cultures in Europe. Instead of a melting pot, separate nations are having the culture war of the 21st century....
It appears more this way every day. Solution, join the EURO quick and quickly integrate and start legislating non-discriminatory lasw AND quickly or you the British (sorry bout punctuation), will pay and pay, till peace breaks out.
Maybe its just the minority but maybe you DO need hate speech laws and then *you should impliment them when they are broken.*
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184 AnonymousCalifornian:
I was trying to ask a serious question: "How is 'American Culture' to be defined?" From the point of view, beliefs, and ideas of those born in one country in the 17th century; from the France of the mid-eighteenth; from those born in Europe in the 19th; from those born in South America in the 20th, for example?
With the amount of mass migration that is now occurring around the world (and which many think will increase as climates change) many countries, or 'nations' if you prefer, including both of the two European ones you could say I'm a 'native' of, and two more in which I spend a good part of the year, are faced with these types of questions.
On "British humour is known for being sarcastic" I'll forbear to comment, except to say it is sometimes the only way left to combat ignorance, stupidity and malevolence.
That it is not merely the province or usage of us Brits, you may see from this piece by an American writer born, I believe, in New York.
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Also, for a refreshingly nice person who writes however she wishes and presents her positions that way, aren't you just the littlest bit,
Rude? To get away with c onnstantly baiting one other persons opinioos on this blog and get away with it, I would think you would feel quite happy and generous, but nooooo, it keeps on coming.
Please, stop so we can see real opinions instead of personal denuciations...(Im out of my meds, can you tell)
But, truly you are a good writer and your opinions I agree with...but I sometimes wonder why you get so upset about others ..(non-impacting-your life) opinions????
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jan, meerkat, MAII
re the teaching of Spanish to the rest of American youth...
My point (and it's really just speculative) is that hispanics are the fastest growing sector of US society, and they seem to be retaining the Spanish language alongside learning English down the generations (unlike previous waves of immigrants who generally suppressed the "old language" in their children to make them more American).
Given also that there will be continued immigration from Latin-American countries (despite the wall) bringing more spanish speakers.
What you have is eventually an educated, bilingual, hispanic middle class who will have a definitive advantage of being bilingual in Spanish. There are already many hospitals and schools where it is impossible to get a job if you don't speak Spanish. Add to that the future market of middle class hispanics, and you should see what I mean.
I can appreciate how some Americans may not like this, but that's life!
As to teaching language ... it must be started young - around the age of 6. This means that childrens brains develope along a broader spectrum and encourages open-mindedness. That young they hae not yet (hopfully) formed prejudices about "different" people and as with everything, if you can commnicate it certainly helps to smooth out the differences.
All this is really just my opinion, but as a Briton who speaks 4 languages I can atest to the advantages they bring.
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That is the truth Im off my meds (3 days ..and I'll get some)...but I work at the IRS. And I'm truly sorry, that I work there and that I turned on you, Fluffytale.
At least youre tolerant. But, I've talked to some of the successful people there (at the IRS) AND I was told that most people there are on some mind-altering substance (prescribed of course).
So, maybe that is why (numbly) so many people stay republicans..their drugs and altered realities associated with that habit sponsered by their doctors, causes them to GO BALISTIC when their health insurance is "threatened."
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powermeerkat: On post 188, I disagree that it is a President's responsibility to come up with such a plan. It is the responsibility of Congress to do so (to legislate); the President's responsibility is to ensure that laws are put into effect (to execute).
ironfranco: Quite right. Tenacity (or stubbornness - take your pick) certainly has its proper place in applied politics, but it is not the best option in all times and places.
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205. At 8:39pm on 13 Sep 2009, stellarBeloved wrote:
"but maybe you DO need hate speech laws and then *you should impliment them when they are broken.*"
We do, they are. As you can see from not-so-dissimilar posts here sometimes, the BNP can be very crafty in its formulations to evade them.
But, and I'm tired of saying this, there are an awful lot of misapprehensions and misunderstandings about 'multicultural' Britain. And Europe. Sometimes fuelled by people here, either because they are not a part of it as I am, or represent certain views more vociferously and frequently than others.
Incidents and problems get a great deal of publicity here, precisely because they do concern us. Not just when a University professor is involved.
"Multiculturalism' is not some kind of alternativeto a 'multi-racial' society. Why that does not seem to be fully grasped, I just can't understand. Don't people of Chinese origin celebrate Chinese New Year in the USA? Jews, Hanukah? Muslims Eid at the end of Ramadan? And everybody goes to the fireworks parties on November the Fifth.
Americans (those in London, I know, certainly) celebrate Independence Day and Thanksgiving. Should we ban that because it's part of another culture?
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204 fluffytale-
I think we’re not on the same page with the word “silly”. When I said I thought your “grunting” comment was “silly”, I meant “interesting”.
Also, I watched your Hillary Clinton link and as I generally block what she says was totally focused on how her hairstyle has changed over the years. So, that was interesting.
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Where can I order ten t-shirts? nah, just kidding. I find nothing wrong with this subject. During the 1930's, the English language was mandated in Puerto Rico as the language to be taught in schools. The Primary language and Spanish second. Spain ceded Puerto Rico to the US in 1898. Unfortunately this change from Spanish to English did not have a successful result. Soon the Primary language was reinstated as Spanish. One stipulation remained and it was that English be taught as a second language. My point is that no one there can say that the English language is totally new to them. Many who come from there speak English enough to get by. Basic though as it may be it is enough to just begin to qualify them as a fair opponent in verbal suicide. The fear of complete failure is enough to cause the following, 'Mee No speek inglis.' I assure you I am not poking fun at anyone, as I was born in Puerto Rico. Not knowing enough to hold their own in a conversation in English was bad enough without having to worry about the perception of ones accents. Perhaps that is one reason why some make a claim of not speaking it at all. No one likes to be the subject of other people's jokes. I will Admit I occasionally Smile when I hear the accented language, but not when anyone is looking my way. I also have a slight accent and can sometimes get a reaction from others, Although I speak 3 languages and want to learn 2 more. I know somebody will laugh at my raw French accent. c'est la vie.(that is life) No one is perfect. Right?
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211
Just to be clear, we do have laws against racial abuse, racial hate, racial and religious discrimination and its expression. Yes they are broken; yes they are enforced. People (of more than one 'race') are currently in prison because of them.
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211. At 9:49pm on 13 Sep 2009, squirrellist wrote:
205. At 8:39pm on 13 Sep 2009, stellarBeloved wrote:
"but maybe you DO need hate speech laws and then *you should impliment them when they are broken.*"
We do, they are. As you can see from not-so-dissimilar posts here sometimes, the BNP can be very crafty in its formulations to evade them.
But, and I'm tired of saying this, there are an awful lot of misapprehensions and misunderstandings about 'multicultural' Britain. And Europe. Sometimes fuelled by people here, either because they are not a part of it as I am, or represent certain views more vociferously and frequently than others."
I find these people invariably give themselves away.
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@199 MAII
You wrote: *Fortunately, American culture is even more pervasive and effective at assimilating foreigners within the US than it is in influencing them elsewhere around the world. Few people have difficulty for more than a short time. By the second generation, there is no discernable distinction between them and those whose ancestors have been here many generations.*
True for the foreigners who happened to find a job in the US and consequently decided to live there. True for foreigners outside the US, especially for those who remain in Europe and who do not share the American style of life.
For ex., in Eastern Europe, the empty gap left by the Russian language is quickly being filled in by the English. That does not mean necessarily that we accept the American culture. The English is just an indispensable tool of communication and nothing else.
Generalissimo Franco
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213. At 10:22pm on 13 Sep 2009, ranter22 wrote:
"Fear of assisted verbal suicide". Yes. I know it well from when I was learning French and trying to get around in Paris.
All the more reason to be accommodating of other people's languages (and cultures) when they are not your own I would say. And have been trying to.
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199. At 6:12pm on 13 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Over two hunderd languages are spoken in the United States.
And some of those are native American languages.
Americans learing Spanish or any other foreign language is no asset to them."
Hmm well they seem to disagree, since they sign up to learn.
"I'm not sure they even teach foreign language as a manditory course in high school anymore. Unless you go into a profession where you will be dealing with people in a foreign country in their native tongue or wish to become a professional translator it is of no help."
Hmm clearly we are not dealing with someone who has ever gone overseas here. If you think for a moment that someone raised in another language but speaking english to you is giving you an accurate account of a deal or other factors, you have plainly never been outside Cleveland.
How one used to roar hearing executives say that they had pinned down a deal with a Chinese/Indian/Geramn etc Ceo confident because the transaction was carried out in English.
If they do not learn English by the time they become adults, they will most likely not be able to function to anything like their full potential in life. Fortunately, American culture is even more pervasive and effective at assimilating foreigners within the US than it is in influencing them elsewhere around the world."
Hardly. US culture is riven with differences. What country gave us the modern ghetto?
"Few people have difficulty for more than a short time. By the second generation, there is no discernable distinction between them and those whose ancestors have been here many generations. "
Far too glib. Ethnic identity in the US is often crucial in a whole host of ways from election profiling, schooling etc.
Compared to Australia for eg , the US often appears to consist of many different countries, many of who hate or at least despise each other.
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Generalissimo Franco;
"That does not mean necessarily that we accept the American culture. The English is just an indispensable tool of communication and nothing else."
In time you will. Slowly, subtly, but surely you will be brainwashed. a Big Mac and Coke here, a movie there, a TV show, and one day you will not be the same person you are today. This is what al Qaeda and the Taleban are really fighting. I understand the Oprah Winfrey show is big among Moslem women now. It discusses subjects of great interest and concern to them their own media don't touch. And they get it from an American perspective right in their own homes.
Simple Simon;
"Hmm clearly we are not dealing with someone who has ever gone overseas here."
Someone else want to tell him? It's so tiresome so many times. I learned a lot about the world, life, myself, and to appreciate many things I had previously taken for granted. What a world of difference there is from one place to another...except within America. I've felt completely at home no matter where I've gone in the USA.
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Simple Simon;
"often appears to consist of many different countries, many of who hate or at least despise each other."
I saw that phrase and I thought you were talking about Europe. Seems to me Greece and Turkey were on the verge of war over Kosovo just ten years ago. In Belgium they the French and Flemish don't even speak each other's language. What about Spain? Northern Ireland? Ukraine. The Balkins. The Baltics. And what about all the disaffected communities within these countries. Turks in Germany. Moslems in France, and Britain. North Africans in Malta and Italy. There's plenty more.
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I am pretty much past my youth now, well maybe not that much far off. I recall giving false words to some friend who wanted to say something nice to a girl he liked, he wanted to say it in Spanish and I told him.
Except I changed it a little and boy was he a fast runner. But that was among friends and later I fessed up and all was good.
Yes most of my life I wondered what the secret code was for speaking English in that way which seemed so effortless to some but not to me. I knew the same words,I spoke clearly and yet It felt like I could never break even in an exchange of words. It was the extra assist all the time. There comes a time in a persons life when they have to go it alone. Jump in get wet, swim or sink. Language is made easy. My motivation comes from children. When I hear a child that I know is 7 or 8 years old and can already speak in two languages, one of which is unfamiliar to me, I say to myself 'If he/she can do it then so can I' except for my typing which is 9 words per minute. {I know typing is not a language}. It is a shame though that some people abuse other less proficient speakers just because it makes them feel superior. They are Linguistic bullies.
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Surely, a Muslim does not present a threat.
A radical Muslim may be another thing altogether. If I was able to I would learn all languages. I am not so arrogant as to say English or go home. doctors have to learn Latin and they don't always use it, it is that one or few times that you need it and it is good to know, you know it.
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221. At 11:42pm on 13 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon;
"often appears to consist of many different countries, many of who hate or at least despise each other."
I saw that phrase and I thought you were talking about Europe."
Maybe you should put your glasses on Marcus and put the glass down full of Roumanian plum cheer.
I was refering to the US and the way some in the US despise and hate those from other cultures, including native American ones.
Wonder who could be a good example of this?
" Seems to me Greece and Turkey were on the verge of war over Kosovo just ten years ago."
Did that seem to you? How odd that Serbia was not involved. You know the country Kossovo belonged to. Haven't got Serbia and Greece confused have you.
Refer to my first comment.
When did Turkey become part of Europe? At about the same time Mexico became part of the US?
Of course the Turks did occupy Roumania so I suppose its close to your heart.
"In Belgium they the French and Flemish don't even speak each other's language."
Hmmm Belgium is not part of Turkey or Kossovo. Too Roumanian plum cheer I fear.
"What about Spain? Northern Ireland? Ukraine. The Balkins"
The Baltics."
What about them? What about Lynching? The KKK, AWB all part of one country.
How many lynchings were there in the US (noted) at least 4000 and counting. How many murders in Mexico (since you think Turkey is in Europe it will serve) since the begining of this year? How many girls butchered on the border?
"And what about all the disaffected communities within these countries. Turks in Germany. Moslems in France, and Britain. North Africans in Malta and Italy. There's plenty more."
Whihc proves my point the US has all these minorities in one country, and they hate each other. And of course the Native Americans - whom everyone seems to hate.
Must be bad living with several NI's.
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220. At 11:31pm on 13 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Generalissimo Franco;
"That does not mean necessarily that we accept the American culture. The English is just an indispensable tool of communication and nothing else."
In time you will. Slowly, subtly, but surely you will be brainwashed. a Big Mac and Coke here, a movie there, a TV show, and one day you will not be the same person you are today. This is what al Qaeda and the Taleban are really fighting. I understand the Oprah Winfrey show is big among Moslem women now. It discusses subjects of great interest and concern to them their own media don't touch. And they get it from an American perspective right in their own homes.
Simple Simon;
"Hmm clearly we are not dealing with someone who has ever gone overseas here."
Someone else want to tell him? It's so tiresome so many times. I learned a lot about the world, life"
Roumania is a wonderful country (best natural parks in Europe) but I don't think frequent visits can be held to mean you have seen the world.
But I concede the point - it is overseas. FOr yourself it must be the next universe I suppose.
"and to appreciate many things I had previously taken for granted."
Hmmm like the world is divided into different countries and a person's colour isn't important? Don't seem to have learned these relatively basic lessons.
" What a world of difference there is from one place to another...except within America."
You learn countries are different? But how come you think Europe is one country which includes Latvia?
And as for integration comparted to OZ the US isn't even in the same universe.
Koories aside (and it is a big aside) there is a country which can seriously claim to have overcome ethnic disputes. No lynchings or KKK there.
"I've felt completely at home no matter where I've gone in the USA."
Provided the neighbours were a certain type of people.
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Also Mark:
English language is no longer the only preferred communication medium. The Chinese are also leading in that forum. I have yet to be asked to press any button to be given instructions for a call in Chinese. Given that China is now the 2nd or 3rd greatest superpower on earth and that they are involved in recruiting even those that have been unsuccessful in securing financial aid from Americans. The odd part of it is that they don't require too much red tape (no pun). With over one billion people, that is about one sixth of the earths population. And just one primary language and I am sure there are some dialects as well. They will recruit and help any country that asks for help. Of course there's always that one little favor. But that's not all they are also very industrious and would send their own workers to help rebuild or build the infrastructure for their neighbors or potential friends. Even teach their language to them. Of course China cannot feed their own population by themselves so they expect some help back. By now you see how the Chinese language might come in handy. We also can appreciate the famous John F Kennedy Quote "Ask not what your country can do for you, But what you can do for your country". Will you let me do for my country?
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ranter (223): Lawyers also need to learn latin. It used to be taught in our primary schools, a sign of fallen standards in American Education.
In the southwestern United States I've often heard the region being refered to as "Northern Mexico".
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Ranter22:
China does not have one universal language, or ethnic group & while the official language in China is Mandarin, unless you live in the vicinity of Beijing or work for or with their government, you don't hear it spoken very often. The language spoken in Hong Kong and Singapore is Cantonese. I find it to be very melodious but complicated, my few attempts at the language were failures, but thankfully unnecessary, as nearly everyone I met there spoke English quite fluently.
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That was a long time ago when Pancho villa used to come up to the southern part of the us and kill a few hundred American gringos and then The US retaliated, almost lost the war to Mexico and declared new Mexico,California, well you know all the other states US property. I suppose one could say Northern Mexico and yet many who come over oceans can claim refuge but the very next door neighbor is draining the economy. I say if they want to really work and stay here and fight for US, Teach them some English give them an M-16 send them out to Afghanistan and when they come back home Give them some good old Obama health care. Wait a minute!!! No just good health care. But they better not be bringing drugs over the border. And if they choose not to indulge on the US affairs then take them back to Mexico and if they show up here again they owe us airfare and must work for two tickets, the previous one and the next one they will be on. If they come back again make them a citizen and watch how fast they go back home. Matter of fact make Mexico the 52nd state. Just kidding about the state thing. I went to Mexico in 1996 and those folks, most are hard working people. It is a beautiful country. The only thing was every time I went from one city to another, the army stopped my car and searched for drugs and illegal weapons and you know the movies about bribing these guys it is not really true. I had not done anything wrong but I offered to give some money and they refused it. Greysquirrel1867, if you were the U.S. president, why would you ignore so many people that are against the H.C. Bill. Especially if later they are going to be unhappy about being heard on the issue?
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Greysquirrel1967:
That you actually traveled there is one accomplishment and Yes for foreigners the frontiers of even communist societies have always been a positive haven. Not to say that I know you were a foreigner because I go not know this for sure. Just saying for foreigners. So long as the powers that be are in charge the language is less important than the circumstances. Nonetheless your point is made. English for convenience is spoken largely. Just thinking of all the symbols and graphics that make up the languages there is mind boggling. and when you consider that one inflection determines the meaning of one word and separates it from another it is awesome. The biggest armed forces in the world with about 3 million soldiers. The largest population in one country. Health care? Health dare. I have heard Chinese people speaking Spanish and singing perfectly. Of course it is almost always a phonetics trick. But tell me that all Chinese are not considered Eastern Asians?
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rater(229) If I were POTUS I would have been elected by those very same people & I would feel an obligligation to listen to their concerns.
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Good call, Nice info, Buenas noches
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228. At 01:29am on 14 Sep 2009, GreySquirrel1867
At the risk of setting Marcus off again on another rant about the evil Empire, that might have something to do with both Singapore and Hong Kong having been British colonies.
However, in fact, very many people in Hong Kong speak little or no English. (About 2/3 compared with 1/4 in Singapore.)
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#226. ranter22: "Given that China is now the 2nd or 3rd greatest superpower on earth . . . "
So which would be the other contenders? No Soviet Union now, which was the other superpower, and few people, if any, think of China as a "superpower". Super manufacturer, but otherwise, what?
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@220 MarcusAureliusAntoniusAugustusII
*In time you will. Slowly, subtly, but surely you will be brainwashed*
Sure, but not before the Last Judgement!
(When King Boris Ist of Bulgaria did converted us to Christianity and forced us to pray and write using the Cyrillic alphabet /that event happened in 885 after J.C./, America was still Terra Incognita to Europe. A century later, king Vladimir of Kiev did what his orthodox slavic brother Boris Ist had done, and ever since, Russia has been present on the World political map as a mighty Christian country. America was still Terra Incognita. Cheers!)
Generalissimo Franco
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227. GreySquirrel1867 wrote:
"In the southwestern United States I've often heard the region being refered to as "Northern Mexico"."
Back in 1867 it really was Northern Mexico .... oh, and without wishing to seem age-ist do you have a portrait in the attic?
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Re#234.
US, the biggest market for Chinese products by far, has just fired first warning salvo (35% tariff on Chinese tyres) and the biggest dumping-practicing nation on Earth.
And the one who fired the first salvo was none other than Barrack Obama.
[WTO's going to be fire the next salvo in reaction to PRC's massive violations of the copyright law].
BTW David_Cunard, since you've mentioned mighty Soviet Union which is no more.
Do you know that PRC has never accepted Treaty of Aigun as a legitimate pact, but sees it as a worthless piece of paper signed under duress?
And therefore has territorial claims on Manchuria (now a part of Russian Federation called Primorski and Khabarowski Krai)?
The 40th anniversary of Russian-Chinese clashes at Ussuri has just passed.
Please, stay tuned for further Manchurians' peaceful (so far) reconquista of their ancient homeland.
P.S. Peoples Republic of China has of course a free health care system.
Have you been to China...lately? [I have]
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$224 "When did Turkey become part of Europe".
Part of Turkey (at least) has always been in Europe.
[The generally accepted geographical border between Europe and Asia runs along Ural Mts].
And for almost half of a millenium a large part of Europe was in Turkey.
[or in Ottomman Empire if someone wants to nit-pick]
That's perhaps, why some members of a European Catholic club
(Germany, France, Austria) will never agree on admission of Turkey to EU.
Despite decades of promises, promises.
P.S. Incidentally, those almost 500 years were the only long period of peace&stability in the Balkans. How ironic.
Incidentally
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Atually, ironfranco, prince (not king) Vladimir of Kiev Russia (founded by Vikings, more precisely by Varangian prince Ruryk) wanted to accept Islam.
And he almost agreed when he was told that in Islam one cannot drink alcohol.
"Russian man cannot live without vodka!", he famously remarked.
And accepted an offer from the competiton: Bizantium.
So, here's mudd in your eye! Or skool! Or cheers! Or na zdarovie! :-)
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Re#237, Correction
Barrak Obama has of course just fired the first salvo ON the biggest dumping-practicing nation on Earth (PRC).
As EU itself should also know very well by now.
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Surely the Roman empire was also bilingual: Greek had a special status alongside Latin and was standard in the eastern provinces.
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Well, I hardly bothered to read all 240 comments, but there was a lot of misinformation going around about what "Hispanic" means in an official context- the census, basically.
The census first asks you what race you are; it's totally self-selected. I'm white, but I could be a Pacific Islander if I wanted to be. Next, it asks you if you're hispanic or latino of any race. Go to Wikipedia and check out the census results from any town or county in, say, South Texas; you'll find that the majority of people there are listed as white, but then the majority of people are also hispanic or latino of any race. They introduced this in the 2000 census, I do believe, because the government would like to know how many, y'know, "latin" folks are living in a place, but when they incorporated it as a separate choice in the same category as white, black, or American Indian, many latinos chose one of the other categories.
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@239 powermeerkat
Sorry for the mistake. Vladimir was a prince of Kiev Russia, not a king like his Slavic predecessor Boris Ist of Bulgaria. As a matter of fact, Vladimir was a Varyag, i.e. of Norwegian nobility, who imposed hard discipline on his subjects.
What I can’t well understand is your presumption about the alleged *partiality* of Vladimir for the vodka. You see friend, in the early 11 century, the distillation process was not yet introduced in Europe.
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Marcus, you've made my week! The old Bull Fighting anecdote gets it's monthly airing! Does that mean an "Are you Being Served?" example is just around the corner?
Regarding the French hatred for Germans (in the 70s, according to you, o not exactly reliable): Did you see this as a good or bad thing? I'm genuinely intrigued, given your own national hatreds.
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@244 MAII
I did not know that you were in France in the early 70s. It was Georges Pompidou who was in charge. Both De Galles and Pompidou were in favour of the Franco German alliance, just like Jean Monet and Conrad Adenauer had supported it 20 years earlier. Now I start better understanding your negative stance when it comes to assess how we, the European folks behave and live /half of my family is still in France/.
You see Markus, I do not seek a quarrel. It was Alice who somehow defended any action her government would take as if she were on pay with Putine. I often sided with her, because I am Bulgarian, and I still have a sincere veneration and esteem for our liberator /Russia/ from the Turkish yoke.
Bulgaria means a country of the tribe called Bulgars. Our origin is in Central Asia. A big part of the Bulgars came to the Balkan peninsular in the second half of the 7th century A.C., and, after several bloody battles with the Byzantine troops we established here our *Khans state*. Later on, we mixed up with the local Slavic tribes and totally disappeared as an Asian race. As a matter of fact, we the Bulgarian folks, are 100 per cent Slavic people just like the Russians, the Byelorussians, the Ukrainians, the Serbians, the Macedonians /though they still refuse to call themselves Slavs/, the Montenegrins, the Poles, the Slovaks, the Czechs, the Croatians, and, the Slovenians /This is the Slavic race or racial group, where, the Orthodox and the Catholic faith are predominant. We were converted in 885 A.C. by king Boris Ist of Bulgaria. He also introduced the Cyrillic Alphabet & the ancient Slavic dialect as official literacy & language of our slavic state, a state which still exists, under the same ancient name, in the mere center of the Balkan peninsular/.
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Ironically when you do press 1 for English you will often get someone from India or elsewhere who does not speak English very well at all. My suggestion: press 2 for Spanish you will generally be transferred to someone in southern California who knows both English and Spanish better than the average American!
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It is pretty well established that by the 3rd generation, immigrnt families (whether legal or illegal) are assimilated Americans and speak english. Millions of Americans are proud of their ethnic background and yet consider themselves 100% American - otherwise we wouldn't have Pulaski Day and St. Patricks Day parades, etc. For the record, there is no law that establishes English as the official language of the USA. I live in Edison, NJ and it is thriving because of the influx of well-educated immigrants from east and south Asia. Let the racists speak their trash (it is a first amendment right!) but they are only vocal because the tide of history is against them.
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243. At 12:14pm on 14 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simeon
I have never been go Roumania and have no desire to ever go there."
Too many people like you?
Do you think despising your family is healthy?
" I understand they do not get along very will with the Hungarians...or the Roma. I lived in France for nearly two years and I learned to speak French. French people were remarkably derogatory and derisive of any mistakes I made struggling to learn their language."
Oh lamb! Maybe it was the abuse you were trying to come out with.
"In the US people trying to learn English and making mistakes would never be treated in such a way, it would be considered extremely rude. Different rules and social norms apply."
No people in the US have been shot for not speaking English clearly.
Think I prefer the French approach.
"The involvement of Turkey and Greece over the Balkins is something you should know well. I suggest you study WWI and the intrigues and animosities that led up to it...starting around the tenth century."
Did Turkey exist in the 10th century? I thought Byzantium ruled at that time.
Maybe you need to read a little more.
" Interesting that a war that started with a partisan shooting an archduke in the Balkins winds up with British and French on one side and Germans on the other descimating an entire generation of their youth in the fields of France and Belgium just a short time later."
Its the Balkans not the Balkins and the Russians, Italians Americans, Japanese etc were also involved.
This is why it is called a World War.
Don't try history Marcus it isn't your strongpoint.
"America's greatest mistake in history was getting itself involved jus? as President Washinton had warned aganst over 100 years earlier."
American makes a lot of mistakes doesn't it? Not as many as Roumania though in recent memory.
"When I lived in France, the French hatred for the Germans was still palpable. This was almost 30 years after the war was over. I wonder if it has abated at all yet. You don't know much about European history do you. What do you know about?"
Well I know you don't know a lot, not even about Roumania - possibly because of your family issues.
I alsoknow the Russians were in WW1 which seems to have escaped you somehow
It was interesting to go to a bullfight in Madrid. There were thousands of people cheering as men in silly costumes, some on horses slowly and brutally tortured and slaughered an animal."
And you found this spectacle "interesting". How are you on dogbaiting and sadistic CDs, keen on these? Are you allowed to keep animals?
"People were cheering."
And you were among them.
"One Catholic Priest in his garb was enjoying the spectacle while eating ice cream. They call this an art."
Eating ice cream is not called an art. You can't expect a member of the Rotmanian church to attend. Spain is a catholic country.
"I think if the bulls weren't half bled to death by the time the matador comes out, half the matators would be impaled on their horns, gored to death. I of course was rooting for the bulls. That's European civilization for you. Ironfranco, ever been to a bullfight? You should have been. After all, you are from "Bull-garia" :-)"
You admit to watching an animal tortured to death and then boast about it. Oh dear Marcus what a giveaway.
You plainly visited Spain during Franco - this is interesting. Did you ask to see any executions? Do you queue for them in US?
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Hey Mark,
Thanks for your excellent blog. The issue that you are talking about is very complex for a country that describes white South Africans, such as Charlize Theron as 'African-American, or describe Alberto Fujimori, the former president of Peru, as an 'Hispanic-american', and consider him to be in the same racial category as Sammy Sosa, but not Christy Yamuguchi, the famous ice skater. Cameron Diaz, is in the same racial group as George Lopez, but not with Jennifer Aniston. It all goes to show you that the racial/ethnic categorization system used in the USA to classify human beings is incorrect. The 'Hispanic' issue in the US is very complex as it is a relatively new term for the US census which was first used in 1980. In US English, the term Hispanic refers to people from central and south america. A majority of the people living in Central and South America have brown eyes and hair and are of mixed native american and european descent. The Census Bureau has not been able to find a racial term that describes them, so they stole the meaning of the word Hispanic from British English. In the past, 'Hispanic', as you stated, was a term used to refer exclusively to the art, language, culture, etc. of Spain. The equivalent term 'Lusitanic' was used to refer to Portugal. The fact that in the US the term Hispanic colloquially groups people of Asian (Alberto Fujimori), European(Cameron Diaz), Native American (Atahualpa), Australian , Pacific Islander and African (Sammy Sosa) race as one racial group is bizarre but many things in the US are and lack any explanation towards truth. As a US citizen living in Europe, I have only become aware of the differences between the US and Europe only as the years go by. In the US, the English language is so pervasive that you are not aware of your linguistic isolation until you travel abroad and see the world and find out that there are hundreds of cultures/languages that express humanity in some way or another. I live in a country with 2 official languages and a few minority ones. They are all 'equal' in that one is not better than the other. In the USA, while learning another language or having friends that are non-native speakers, I have found that there really is this complex of supposed superiority or something that has to be valued more. Another odd thing is that some posters, after reading your blog, keep referring to Spanish in the USA as a 'foreign' language, like Thai, Farsi, Estonian or Swahili, even though factually its use in the current day territory of the USA predates that of the English language, and a segment of USA territory, Puerto Rico, is majority native-Spanish speaking. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_in_the_United_States) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico. If the USA were a European country, Spanish would be given offical status if not at a national level then at least in a regional context, and the language would be the teaching language in schools and universities, and this dilemna that so many English speaking Americans have of becoming a 'bicultural' would not matter. In case you haven't noticed Mark, the USA is already a bicultural nation de facto, if not de jure. But like the Russian language speakers in the Baltics, the Quechua speakers of Peru, and Arab speakers in Israel, the Spanish speaking in the USA have no legal voice in government, so everything has to be done in English, or else.
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238. At 10:49am on 14 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:
$224 "When did Turkey become part of Europe".
Part of Turkey (at least) has always been in Europe.
[The generally accepted geographical border between Europe and Asia runs along Ural Mts].
And for almost half of a millenium a large part of Europe was in Turkey.
[or in Ottomman Empire if someone wants to nit-pick]
That's perhaps, why some members of a European Catholic club
(Germany, France, Austria) will never agree on admission of Turkey to EU.
Despite decades of promises, promises.
P.S. Incidentally, those almost 500 years were the only long period of peace&stability in the Balkans. How ironic.
The Ottoman empire was one of the most successful there has ever been.
Why is that ironic?
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245. At 1:12pm on 14 Sep 2009, paulcrossleyiii wrote:
Marcus, you've made my week! The old Bull Fighting anecdote gets it's monthly airing!"
Yes he is obviously proud of watching an animal tortured to death. Apparently the spectacle was "interesting"?
I think we may assume he is not permitted to keep animals. Anyone who finds such things "interesting" is probably being watched by the authorities
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238. At 10:49am on 14 Sep 2009, powermeerkat wrote:
$224 "When did Turkey become part of Europe".
Part of Turkey (at least) has always been in Europe.
[The generally accepted geographical border between Europe and Asia runs along Ural Mts]."
Part of the UK is in Spain, but we don't generally say the UK is an iberian country.
Part of fhe US is in Cuba, but we don't generally say the US is Carribean do we.
Part of France (Miquelon) is in Canada - but we don't say France is North American.
Kindly talk sense.
"And he almost agreed when he was told that in Islam one cannot drink alcohol."
And what a wonderful boon widespread chronic alcoholism has been to Russia.
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Re #244
Russians, in case you don't know invented everything first (even avant la lettre) only bigger: the Russian joke -in Soviet times- was that Russian integrated circuits were just as good as American ones and even bigger, just like the midgets.
[BTW for many years Soviet Encyclopedia listed Russians as inventors of transistor. :-)]
I didn't say anything about Vladimir's partiality to vodka; if he drank at all, aquavit would have been more likely, him being Norwegian].
I was merely quoting an apocryphal story that his concern that 'Russian man cannot live without vodka' has to a large extent determined his choice of religion, for himself ,and by the same token, for his subjects
[cuius regio, eius religio]
And, btw., who told ya that the 'product' was distilled? ;-)
Anyway. Se non e vero, e ben trovato.
P.S. If you by any chance find out that "Russian man CAN live without vodka" please, let me know, will ya?
[That's a joke, of course. I have Russian friends who don't drink, and Muslim friends who do, although only in private.]
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stellar just so you know I live in the states and have no health care . whats more while working I had no health care so if injured at work I'd have had to sue my boss to get the hospital bills paid.;)
The boss that refused to pay the i compulsory insurance for workers on the job refused because he was a republican.
He also took a pile of cash for taking on another republican with lifting problems .so put in cranes to avoid heavy lifting,, after we all had wrecked backs.(but hey it's a job)
So when the pains start up I just think of the republicans and dream........
Not very nice dreams as it happens.
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248 LOL jersey guy sticking up for the state.
well done. after years of nothing from jersey but the poison of the oft defended more oft ridiculed trailer trash Ma.
Watch out if you see a angry child with a big rattle stomping around in a dress up emperor's uniform.
He has real issues with the likes of you with all that freethinking;)
have a good day and watch for the lincol mk 7 (or whatever ) with" MA2 mobile "on it.
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marcusaurelius,
As usual, you're missing the point that others have made about the fate of Amerindians in areas colonized by Spain, versus those by the British Empire. The Spanish Empire may have "destroyed" the Aztec, Mayan, and Incan civilizations, but Amerindian culture and blood are still very ALIVE AND WELL in most of Spain's former colonies, where the majority of the population still has Amerindian descent (and I mean they have SINGIFICANT Amerindian descent, and Amerindian physical characteristics, as opposed to White Americans who look totally White but claim that their great-great grandmother was a "Cherokee princess"). Mexico, for example, 60% of Mexicans are mestizo (mixed European and Amerindian), and another 30% are pure Amerindian, according to the Mexican national census. There are other countries, like Bolivia, where pure Amerindians make up the majority of residents. By contrast, people of Amerindian descent (and I mean SERIOUS Amerindian descent, not someone having 2% "Cherokee blood") are a minscule portion of the American population. Amerindian culture is also alive and well in most of Spain's former colonies. Mexican cuisine is almost entirely Amerindian; the Day of the Dead holiday is basically an old Aztec holiday fused with the Catholic All Saints' Day, and there's also evidence that the Virgen de Guadalupe is a Catholic continuation of an Aztec-era female diety. It's also worth noting that as late as the mid-19th century (AFTER Mexico had gained independence from Spain) the majority of Mexicans still spoke Nahuatl and other indegenous languages (in fact, the post-independence Mexican government, run by Spanish-speaking elites, is highly responsible for Hispanization, eradicating the indegenous languages almost entirely).
demlon
What typical American Exceptionlist "we are the world" "we are diverse" "we are unique" nonesense.
The vast majority of "Italian"-Americans only have a very faint connection with Italy. You should conduct a survey of "Italian"-Americans, and "German"-Americans, and "Polish"-Americans, and ask them if both their parents actually came from Italy/Germany/Poland, and if they actually speak Italian/German/Polish, and if they actually eat German/Italian/Polish food on a regular basis, and celebrate Polish/Italian/German holidays on a regular basis, and if they practice Germany/Italian/Polish customs (do these "Italian"-Americans actually practice a daily siesta? [or riposo, which is the Italian word for it])...you'll find out that only a very very tiny portion of these "Italian" "German" and "Polish" Americans are legitimately what and who they say they are ethno-culturally.
I'm sorry, but someone who's only claim to being "Italian" is that they had a grandmother come from Italy...someone who spoke AMERICAN ENGLISH as his/her first language, and eats AMERICAN food (not braciole or Tuscan tripe salad)..that person belongs to America's WHITE ENGLISH-SPEAKING ETHNIC MAJORITY, which is composed of 200+ million Americans JUST LIKE HIM, who speak AMERICAN ENGLISH as their first language, know ONLY *American* customs and social norms, and are descended from the ****INTERMARRIAGE**** OF SEVERAL EUROPEAN ETHNIC GROUPS that settled in what is now the US from the 16th century to the early 20th.
America is not the only country descended from a hodgepodge of tribes.
Britons = Angles+Saxons+Jutes+Celts.
Italians = Romans+Greeks+Etruscans+Lombards.
Mexicans = Aztecs+Mayans+Zapotecs+Europeans(Spaniards and Germans)
French = Franks+Gauls+Romans+Greeks+Normans
Egyptians = AncientEgpytians+ArabInvaders
WHITE ANGLOPHONE AMERICANS = INTERMARRIAGE OF SEVERAL EUROPEAN ETHNIC GROUPS OVER THE COURSE OF 4 CENTURIES
America is not that unique. It's time to give up the nonsense, and start seeing yourselves as a NORMAL COUNTRY.
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#238
powermeerkat,
By your logic Spain is an African country, as it has 'always' had a part of its territory in Africa.
I am also not sure about your 'peace and stability' on the Balkans, brought by the turks. The peace and stability during those 500 years you mention is in fact an almost extermination of the people living there by the turks (the ottomans). Consider the following- Britain had a population of about 3 million in 1400AD. Four hundred years later the population was 20 million. Now consider Bulgaria which had about one million population before the ottoman conquest-1396 AD. After the long years of 'peace and stability', in 1892 it had two an a half million people. Despite what you might believe, the constant warring on the Balkans in the past was no worse then anywehere else at the time and in fact it did not impact at all on the population growth. Something which cannot be said about the 'peaceful' ottoman empire.
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MarcusAurelius,
"Seems to me Greece and Turkey were on the verge of war over Kosovo just ten years ago."
They were? I didn't know that Kosovo was a disputed region between Greece and Turkey. Interesting, no one in Greece was aware of that either, when I was there in 1999.
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#248. Jersey_Guy: "It is pretty well established that by the 3rd generation, immigrnt families (whether legal or illegal) are assimilated Americans and speak english. "
A generation is considered to be roughly twenty years, so that means that Spanish-speaking immigrants will be speaking English by 2070.
"I live in Edison, NJ and it is thriving because of the influx of well-educated immigrants"
It's the ill-educated newcomers which are of concern and who refuse to make even an attempt at learning or using English - come out to Los Angeles and you'll understand. There's nothing racist about it.
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We should be able to comment on all bbc stories like in other news outlet but thats a different story.
This is a great way to set tempo for immigration reform as Latin Americans are the most affected by illegal immigration.
Statistics shows that whites will be a minority in 2050 and by the end of the century spanish will be a majority. This begs the question
Should US be biligual like Switzerland/South Africa/Canada. I say yes. This will make them adjust to the inevitable i.eThe dorminance of the spanish language in the western hemisphere.
White people feel threatened. I beg to differ in Brazil where its 50/50 black and white race live harmoniously.
Spanish is the second fastest growing language in the world. Save English and the most widespread.
I know of places in California where its no different from Mexico. Its the repilica.
Some want Obama to repeat Hoovers water back policy. Huddle and throw them across the border. Thats not only bane but not a good way to thank a country that gave you Colorado, California, New Mexico, Texas,Nevada, Arizona and Utah. Thats an area equivalent to entire western Europe!!
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Fluffytale--We don't grunt, we growl!
Grrrrr grr grrr grrr: Grrrr 3 grrr, grrr grrrr.
That sentence ONLY applies to foreigners who are extraordinarily rude, calling my nation synonyms of manure. The vast majority of immigrants are wonderful people who I am blessed to share the country with.
(In case you can't figure out what that sentence means, I'll give you a hint. It has something to do with fish. It has no foul (or fowl) language in it so please don't refer it. Plus it doesn't slander anyone and it is in American English!)
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MarucsaureliusII--It is actually extremely helpful to know multiple languages in the US, as you would probably know if you were from a younger generation. I have found my limited knowledge of Pennsylvania Deitsch and Spanish useful at times, and recently I wished I could speak Mandarin to a cute classmate of mine (his English is pretty good though, so no problem).
I don't honestly know if I count as a 3rd generation American or a 20th generation American. It would depend on which of my ancestors were counted. It doesn't really matter--I can't write much more on here because I have Spanish to study! (smirk. I knew you wouldn't like that! But it's true.)
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#263. trueconservative: "recently I wished I could speak Mandarin to a cute classmate of mine (his English is pretty good though, so no problem)."
That's hypocritical isn't it? You rely on his laudable ability to communicate in English and yet make no effort to reciprocate in his mother tongue. Rather than learning Spanish, if he's so cute, why not ask him to teach you his language which has the potential of becoming more useful than Spanish? And who knows what being cute in Mandarin might lead to . . .
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tc;
"MarucsaureliusII--It is actually extremely helpful to know multiple languages in the US"
Why? I've gotten along just fine on English in America all my life. Of course I've only been in around half the states. Perhaps I would not be able to communicate with the natives in Montana although I don't get that impression from seeing them on TV. It seems to me it is those who do not speak English here who have a problem. I think it would be a very good idea if The American Language variant of English became the official language of the United States and all official business conducted only in that language. That's what other nations like France do when it comes to their language. Speaking one common language binds people together. It eliminates the ambuigities and resulting misunderstandings that come from translations where words have subtly different meanings. Take the foreign language British English for example. In our language to table an item on an agenda means to set it aside for another day. In their language it means to bring it up for discussion. When people come here, they should expect to converse in English just the way I had to learn French when I lived in France.
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cottonbrain'
"after years of nothing from jersey but the poison of the oft defended more oft ridiculed trailer trash Ma."
I'm puzzled why you brits can't get it through your thick skulls. I live in a house that is probably larger than 99% of the houses in the US. It's on 3 acres which is more land than most people who are not farmers have. I also own two other homes. Which of you fools does this trailer park garbage come from? I've got enough land to start and run my own trailer park business if I wanted to...and the local zoning board would allow it.
Many parts of rural New Jersey are very beautiful...as nice as anything in the UK.
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266. At 9:32pm on 14 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
cottonbrain'
"after years of nothing from jersey but the poison of the oft defended more oft ridiculed trailer trash Ma."
I'm puzzled why you brits can't get it through your thick skulls. I live in a house that is probably larger than 99% of the houses in the US. It's on 3 acres which is more land than most people who are not farmers have. I also own two other homes. Which of you fools does this trailer park garbage come from? I've got enough land to start and run my own trailer park business if I wanted to...and the local zoning board would allow it."
Wacky do 3 acres - a lot of land? Try 300 mate.
I beleive you live in a big house. I bet you share it with numerous others and you all wear uniforms.
3 Acres wow, so impressive
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265. At 9:25pm on 14 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
tc;
"MarucsaureliusII--It is actually extremely helpful to know multiple languages in the US"
Why? I've gotten along just fine on English in America all my life. Of course I've only been in around half the states. Perhaps I would not be able to communicate with the natives in Montana although I don't get that impression from seeing them on TV. It seems to me it is those who do not speak English here who have a problem. I think it would be a very good idea if The American Language variant of English became the official language of the United States and all official business conducted only in that language. That's what other nations like France do when it comes to their language. Speaking one common language binds people together. It eliminates the ambuigities and resulting misunderstandings that come from translations where words have subtly different meanings. Take the foreign language British English for example. In our language to table an item on an agenda means to set it aside for another day. In their language it means to bring it up for discussion. When people come here, they should expect to converse in English just the way I had to learn French when I lived in France."
Except that French is a separate language and American Engish is merely an accent or at most a dialect.
But I can see the Constitution being rewritten in street rap. Might even improve it.
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I'm sticking up for Marcus!
He does like animals, he has two(?) large dogs, who I expect think the world of him.
Also, he's not trailer trash. think of him more of one of those reasonably well-off people, who back in the 70's was up to date with what was happening in the world. however since moving out to the country he's lost touch rather.
However, unlike Mrs Slocombe, I believe he has no pussy. I'm free!
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TC
lol and given your attempts to learn how to converse with others grr ewgre right back at you.
sorry if I offended you . you certainly were not the target. Examples of the american grunt are seen in the 1st generation american on the other thread who promised a retraction but gave another attack.
I am glad to say you seem to think that the words do make a difference.
Enjoy the spanish and remember DC was brought up in the UK and despite what he says his posts sometimes have a smack of racism to them. Some times it's a bloody great big wallop.
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In our language to table an item on an agenda means to set it aside for another day. In their language it means to bring it up for discussion.
not quite but then comprehension is not your strong point .
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ps TC I doubt I'd refer you post Off topic is not really a problem for me except where it is an obvious attempt to destroy thee topic. I have to admit I took such exception to JW posts that there with him I might act like a joe wilson but at least be correct in my accusations.
those slanderous posts though . that's not on.
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273. At 11:25pm on 14 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrotm
"Wacky do 3 acres - a lot of land? Try 300 mate."
I may only live on 3 acres while you live on 300 but then unlike you....I don't have to sleep on a park bench."
No I imagine you are not let out into the park very often.
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262. At 6:35pm on 14 Sep 2009, trueconservative wrote:
"(In case you can't figure out what that sentence means, I'll give you a hint. It has something to do with fish. It has no foul (or fowl) language in it so please don't refer it."
Fish?
Fish?
Fish?
I don't get it, sorry.
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@258 Isenhorn
*Now consider Bulgaria which had about one million population before the ottoman conquest-1396 AD. After the long years of 'peace and stability', in 1892 it had two an a half million people.*
I thank you for your good intended contribution to the present discussion. However, I have to complete your information by saying that during the Ottoman rule many Christians were converted by force to Islam, and that by 1892, many ethnic Bulgarians still remained in the occupied by Turkey territories until the first Balkan war of 1912.
Thank you again.
Generalissimo Franco
Sofia, Sept. 15th 2009
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@267 Simon 21
*I believe you live in a big house. I bet you share it with numerous others and you all wear uniforms*.
With all of my respects, I do not accept the idea. First, policemen and other men in uniforms are not as intelligent and well informed as our fellow blogger Marcus is. Second, if my calculations are correct, he's a man of my age and consequently he might have already been retired (I am 60). No matter what you may think of him, Marcus reminds me of Candid, character of Voltaire. That's the reason why some bloggers hastily would prefer just to ignore his comments or to class them as being inadequate and not enough competent. As a matter of fact, Marcus is just another bell’s ringing in this vastness we could easily distinguish among so much other human voices. (Candid is the classic and omnipresent embodiment of frankness & innocence)
(I know MAII from the previous European blog of Mark Mardell. And I may assure you that the audience there was much more tolerable.)
Generalissimo Franco
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@267 Simon 21
*I believe you live in a big house. I bet you share it with numerous others and you all wear uniforms*.
With all of my respects, I do not accept the idea. First, policemen and other men in uniforms are not as intelligent and well informed as our fellow blogger Marcus is. Second, if my calculations are correct, he's a man of my age and consequently he might have already been retired (I am 60). No matter what you may think of him, Marcus reminds me of Candid, character of Voltaire. That's the reason why some bloggers hastily would prefer just to ignore his comments or to class them as being inadequate and not enough competent. As a matter of fact, Marcus is just another bell’s ringing in this vastness we could easily distinguish among so many other human voices. (Candid is the classic and omnipresent embodiment of frankness & innocence)
(I know MAII from the previous European blog of Mark Mardell. And I may assure you that the audience there was much more tolerable.)
Generalissimo Franco
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276 Squirrellist--Sorry. After that "speaking American"blog I, of all people, should never assume that others will be able to figure out what I mean if I don't write it out clearly. So here it is in blunt English:
Guests are like fish: After 3 days, they stink.
It is an old quote that is taught to children in the US in an attempt to make them be respectful when visiting other people's homes. Not every American actually learns to follow it.
Don't think that it applies to you. You are welcome to visit the States anytime you wish. You would also be welcome to bring some Cockney friends along to go on a snipe hunt. (google that lol:)
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264 David Cunard
I hate to be called a hypocrite, especially when critical self-analysis reveals it to be true. I don't plan to remain one long, however. Thanks for the great suggestion to learn Mandarin. I intend to try it:)
I'm still studying Spanish, though. It is such a useful language. Ideally, all immigrants to English-speaking countries should learn to speak English, but the fact is that learning a different language is difficult and many people need help during the transition. Regardless of how many annoyances you have suffered while learning to understand American English, you had it far easier than the average immigrant, I'm quite sure.
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MarcusAureliusII--There's no need to boast that you're rich. Though I don't own any land myself, I am well aware that owning three acres of land in New Jersey is EXPENSIVE. I'm not going to accuse you of being an inhabitant of a correctional institution (note the euphemism) or deny that that you probably are well off, financially.
About rural New Jersey being beautiful...Yes, of course it is, but unfortunately there isn't much "rural" land left in NJ. 93% of your state is either suburban or urban. If NJ townships had more zoning restrictions, maybe there'd be more beauty left in your state.
About making American English the official language of the United States...That could get confusing. What exactly constitutes American English? Not everyone knows twitter, but some would certainly consider that American English. Government documents need to contain a certain amount of formality that lawyers provide just so the meaning is clear. Also, think of how absurdly informal it would seem if a judge declared: "Because you lifted that car, John Doe, you must spend the next 6 months in the slammer. Cops, make him scram and get out of my sight!" You have to admit that American English can get pretty informal at times;)
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TC I have to say when I suggested that those with true in their names were all liars I did forget you. and the fact that you are not in the same group as most that include true in their names.
sorry for that.
When you first started posting several groans were let out of European and Canadian mouths, but your posts then showed you not to be a total hypocrite and someone that argues from a point of a party pasteand blog board.
prometo they used the word incorrectly and now we have to argue about the semantics of hispanics as well as the semantics of semites.
Oh boy I wish america could learn what words mean before they grunt.
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DC I'd have assumed that when there was time in TC schooling that he had shown a willingness to learn. Mandarin.
Learning a language can be difficult learning several I'm sure would be hard.
Like MA I was never very good at French.
But then I don't understand Americans most of the time. they say one thing but their actions don't match the words.
They might as well be speaking Cantonese as far as I can tell.
I've had fun debating the use of the word "welfare" with some americans (well they claim to be and I have no evidence otherwise).
They seem to think that health is not part of welfare.
so like I say.
I'm not sure what language they speak.
TC has consistently shown a respect that is left out and not returned to many other posters but I would suggest should be afforded to TC, because he deserves it.
You however had so many that did respect you but now find you offensive because they see you as the genteel racist.
but a racist none the less.
Sorry.
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285 Fluffytale--I'm a woman not a man so I'd appreciate it if you would refer to me as "she" not "he". Thanks! I probably will be an infrequent contributor for awhile because my classes are gaining in pace, but hopefully I'll be back sometime. I've enjoyed posting with all of you.
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truthorconsequences;
"MarcusAureliusII--There's no need to boast that you're rich."
There is no winning in some places. First I'm called trailer park trash again and again by some posters here (I never complain about other people's postings) and then when I finally tell that I am anything but, I get busted for it. I don't think I'm terribly rich. I think at least 5% of Americans have a net worth of over $1 million or at least did until recently. I was lucky to get out of the stock market around 8 or 9 years ago when it seemed to me that it was going nowhere. I was lucky to have my money in houses in the NYC metro area. That real estate market hasn't suffered so terribly and will likely come back in a few years. Meanwhile I still need to work. I also don't live an extravagant lifestyle, haven't had to pay to put one or more kids through college, haven't had to pay out alimony or child support and have managed my money carefully. If others neglected to do these things and weren't smart enough to be born into a family that saved money to pass on to their children and grandchildren instead of squandering it themselves, that's not my fault. You can see how foolish and greedy many people were who gave EVERY dime they had to Bernie Madof because they wanted to get their hands on every last dime they could. As a result, they lost it all and now want me to feel sorry for them. I don't. An old saying on Wall Street has it that the bears make money, the bulls make money, and the pigs make $***. Lots of pigs out there who learned that first hand.
"What exactly constitutes American English?"
Whatever it is or isn't, every state and local government as well as every agency of the federal government issues countless publications in it. I'm not saying we should have an academy the way the French do to set rules but the notion that there should be translations of everything into every popular language in the US so that people don't have to learn English is absurd too. This only divides us and holds people back. I do not want to see Spanish or any other languge conferred the same status of legitimacy as English in American government or culture.
I don't know where you got your figure of 93% of NJ being urban or suburban but there is a lot of it that is rural. It was quite surprising to me even after I moved into NJ to discover it.
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Linguistic racism? Ha! If only people had more intellectual depth than to make such ludicrous accusations.
The people who wear such shirts as described in the beginning of your article most likely do not speak Spanish. I do speak Spanish, and I agree with that sentiment. It has nothing to do with erasing Hispanics' culture; quite the contrary. When my European ancestors came here to the United States, they knew (and made their children know) that to get ahead in this country, you had to speak the language of its inhabitants. It had nothing to do with racism; in order to succeed in a new land, it helps to speak the language, does it not?
Why should everyone else have to learn the language of the new immigrants? How backwards is that? If people of another culture who speak a different language than English want to come to the United States and make a living, then it is common sense that they should learn English. Could they speak to their families and friends in their native tongue? Of course! Should basic government and societal functions be multilingual? Absolutely not.
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281. trueconservative
Ta. (Thanks.) Thanks also for the invitation (invite?) but though I have friends in Massachusetts and San Fransisco I'd like to see, I would have to be sure whatever reciprocal arrangements the NHS has (if any!) wouldn't bankrupt me if anything went a bit wrong heallthwise while I was there.
It's also possible, since I have been quite public in my support of Palestinian and Lebanese causes over here in 'Real Life' I might even be on one of those 'No Fly' lists.
My travel plans have only ever envisaged seeing Guantanamo Bay from the Cuban side ;-)
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TC I'm so sorry. I should just stick to the s/he form on the blog.
no disrespect.
Do enjoy your studies.
good luck and remember though these blogs are fun they are not really all that informative.But I will look forward to your posts.
it is a shame now there are very few to hold the line of sanity for the right(I do know bTW that some on the left are total radicals with no concept of civility as well. )
Happy Spanish .
Oh the nice squirrel. tut tut.
How un american of you:)
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287. At 9:34pm on 15 Sep 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
truthorconsequences;
"MarcusAureliusII--There's no need to boast that you're rich."
There is no winning in some places. First I'm called trailer park trash again and again by some posters here (I never complain about other people's postings) and then when I finally tell that I am anything but, I get busted for it."
You certainly think you are rich, But plainly spent little on your education.
" I don't think I'm terribly rich."
No I don't think you are either, even minutely.
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Living in the US is an experience- No national language- yet Spanish must be on many forms. When my parents and thier friends get upset it is because they remember thier parents coming to the country unable to speak english and no forms where made in thier language - and there will be none today either in those european languages, even though French is well used in Africa. - We also do not recognise Chinese, Vietnamese or Korean yet we have many immigrants from those communities as well - so if we are no longer the melting pot then we should be reaching out to the other communuties not just hispanic
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I refuse to press anything to get English. If the call I'm making doesn't automatically route to English I will simply hang up. If it is possible, I will no longer give my money to the company and I send them an e-mail explaining why. All four of my grandparents spoke a language other than English upon entering this country. They learned to speak our language to survive. It worked then and nothing is different now. It's time for a national language in the US!
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293 sickofbeingbashed
Even if there was a national language in the USA would it then be possible to ban private companies from having a "dial 1 for Enlgish, 2 for Spanish" etc option on their phones? No. These companies make more money by allowing more people to use their services.
I suggest you follow your estimable grandparents' behaviour and adapt to the situation .... the world is changing. Move with it or be left behind.
You are of course totally at liberty to refuse to use the services of such linguistic prostitutes, but the only person who will notice or care is you.
You obviously feel very strongly about this, but there is so much injustice in the world - can't you find a more appropriate outlet for your bile and anger.
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"What I see is the millions of people of whom I am just one, made orphans: no motherland, no fatherland, no gods...and worst and most painful of all, no tongue...For isn't it odd that the only language I have in which to speak of this crime is the language of the criminal who committed the crime?" --Jamaica Kincaid
I am Portuguese, Irish and Anglo-Indian. And incidentally, I have a graduate degree in Sociolinguistics. What I find interesting in this argument is that people fail to understand the importance of language and identity. Colonial powers have exerted their power through linguistic policy, which has placed prestige over the language of the conquerors over the conquered. The conquered have had to adopt to these new languages just to function in their daily lives. When languages are transmitted, oftentimes their attitudes and biases are transmitted as well. As in the case of the Anglo-Indians. Many have left India because they were unwilling to adopt to multilinguistic India and wanted to hold onto English. Their attitudes towards local languages were identical to those of the colonizers--there was no use for them. So if we look at the US, the same attitudes of the founding fathers who owned slaves and uprooted/murdered Native Americans have been passed on through their descendents--through the English language.
The world has been multilingual since the history of language. In Papua New Guinea, people marry within different linguistic backgrounds, which helps them differentiate their gene pools. In Europe, most speak 2 or 3 languages. People in the US need to know their history--that the Spanish were there long before the English and that the people in the Spanish territories naturally spoke Spanish/indigenous languages until Manifest Destiny...
So before these people get dressed for the day and put on these types of t-shirts, they should think about how ignorant they make themselves look. As for the Press 1 for English, Press 2 option, as others have mentioned in previous comments--if there is a market for it, the businesses will provide whatever accommodation necessary to facilitate taking your money. GET OVER IT
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Mark,
it actually surprised me that you put up Belgium (of all countries) as a shining beacon of dual languages. Living close to the Netherlands and being fluent in Dutch, it is always a set-back to register the animosities between the Dutch and French speaking parts of Belgium whenever I can't help travelling through Belgium.
Here in Germany, our largest Telecomms provider used to start every service call with "Please dial 1 for Turkish, 2 for Polish... If you want to talk German, please hold." That was slightly annoying, but once you spoke to a real operator, the nightmare unfolded - because, no matter which language you choose, you were bound to get incomprehensible rubbish as an answer for any question.
After WW II, we were always very sensitive in Germany about matters of race and ethnicity and it's saddening to find the same kind of racist behaviour (more or less) in countries all over the world. Following the discussion here on this blog, I cannot help but wonder where the part of the U.S. constitution about "... all men are created equal..." left the building..?
As for quite a number of the earlier posts and posters, it was sometimes very hard to read the posts. So, may I suggests widening that telephone system to "Please dial 0 for dyslexic..."
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