Malta immigration woes
MALTA
Over white wine and the rather lovely local fizzy drink made of bitter oranges, the conversation between five women is growing heated.
"These people don't want to be here. Send them on their way!"
"Where? Nobody wants them!"
"Why bring them in here? They are costing us lots of money."
"Because they are in danger. They are dying."
"It's not my problem."
"Someone once said to me 'Don't let them touch land, give them water and push them out'. I said 'Would you have the guts to do it?' I would, I would give them food, make sure they have no illness and send them off."
I had been trying to get a discussion going between a group of women, old school friends meeting for their monthly reunion, but was now quite surplus to requirements as they went at it hammer and tongs. Malta is consumed by the debate over immigration and the role of the European Union.
It is the one country I have been to in the last few weeks where the EU and its policies are central to the European elections. The deregulation of buses and the state of the road are issues. The ban on shooting migrating birds looms large. But it is the fate of human migrants that dominates all else. 
It's true that migration has driven much of human history but it is difficult to credit that Europe seems such a Shangri-La that thousands of people travel for thousands of miles and risk death and appalling hardship to reach our shores. But they do, and when they get into trouble on the high seas the EU's smallest country is in charge of coordinating rescues across 250,000 sq km of sea.
The line is thin indeed: 236 men and women with nine boats between them make up the Maltese Maritime Division. They have help from the EU's frontier patrol agency, Frontex, aircraft from Luxembourg and boats from Germany. EU money will buy them new boats. They're needed.
"If you've seen Apocalypse Now those are the boats going up and down the Mekong Delta." One of the officers from the Maltese equivalent of the navy points out one of their Vietnam-era craft in their main base in Valletta.
Chopping through the deep blue seas in baking sunshine, the boat we go to sea on was made by East Germany, when there was such a country. Their vessels may not be the most modern, but their mission is both very contemporary and very complex.
Not a job for those who love the smell of burning napalm in the morning, it is a combination of gentle police action and search-and-rescue, as politicians seek to satisfy the conflicting demands of voters who expect humanity, but are wary of illegal immigration.
Malta is not only the smallest of the EU countries, it is also the most southern lying south of both Tunis and Tangiers. Size and geography combine to make illegal immigration such an acute problem.
Draw a line between Tripoli and Sicily and you hit Malta. People from all over East and West Africa, either fleeing political strife or simply looking for a better life, make their way at great hardship across the desert and on to Libya. From there, they hope to get to Europe, which now has very few internal borders.
They pay often untrustworthy middle men ("people smugglers" if you must) for the passage in often hopelessly inadequate boats. Many end up having to be rescued, and taken to a detention centre in Malta.
The island joined the EU in 2004 and there's some dispute if this made it a desirable target. The government line is that most are heading for Italy, and then for the rest of the EU and they simply wash up in Maltese waters by accident.
The figures are ambiguous. In 2002 there were 1,500 people detained. The year Malta joined the EU only 500. But it's been rising since. Last year there were 2,800. This year a record number until April. Since then, nothing.
The boat's skipper scans the horizon through powerful binoculars. He doesn't expect to see any refugee boats looming into sight.
The man with the seemingly unenviable task of coordinating Malta's search and rescue operation seems to relish it, and Major Andrew Mallia spells out, with impressive clarity, the priorities.
He tells me that if a ship is spotted they will rescue the people on board if they are in trouble, but otherwise must simply warn them against illegal immigration, if they are outside Malta's territorial waters.
But once inside it is imperative to stop them landing. If they did they could simply disappear or, as one man did, drown in the last five metres to shore. Still force must not be used against them. This isn't just an injunction against armed force: persuasion, not compulsion, has to be used. The would-be immigrants must be persuaded to come on board. This is done with great care, so their boat is not capsized, and people are taken on board by dinghy, only five or six at a time, so they can be searched for weapons and any troublemakers isolated.
We take to the air, in one of the helicopters that coordinate rescues. Again, beautiful views of the island and coast, but not a boat of migrants in sight. It's thought Libya has acted to destroy the yards where the special boats are made and that they have fired on ships that are leaving, perhaps enthusiastic to get big EU money for dealing with the problem.
But many Maltese feel the EU's large countries are not doing their share. The Maltese want "burden-sharing", which means other EU countries taking some of the migrants, who are currently packed into one of the most crowded countries on Earth. Other EU countries don't want them, and don't want to encourage would-be migrants. "Go to Malta and get locked up" is one thing. "Go to Malta and get free passage to Germany, the UK or France" is quite another.
I am here for a film I am doing for Sunday's election night programme, which is meant to illustrate how different outcomes in the election might influence different policies. It is a worthwhile commission, but the conclusion will not be as straightforward a guide as the editor might have hoped.
Yes, any future immigration package will be amended and passed or rejected by MEPs. Both main parties here want "burden-sharing," but Labour say they thought of it first, and that the ruling Nationalists were tardy.
It is fair to say if the socialists are in the ascendant then the package will much more liberal than if the centre-right hold sway. But in Malta in many ways the Labour Party, members of the European Socialist group, have a harder, more confrontational line than the ruling Nationalist Party, which is part of the centre-right.
It's hardly surprising that the women arguing so passionately can't tell me how the European Parliament is relevant to their debate. "You vote red or blue. That's the way it is," one says with finality.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~25~RS~)
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The Schengen countries should have a single immigration policy, increasing Frontex's role and punish countries that fail to restrict potentially illegal immigrants from reaching our shores.
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oh..where is your last post?
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Agreed. Though all Schengen countries should take the burden one way or another of policing the land/sea border, in particular the Med/Atlantic where most of the problems are coming from. For instance I don't of any German boats patrolling off the coast of The Canaries stopping illegal immigrants coming from Africa and the authorities there are stretched beyond capacity.
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It's good that immigration is finally getting the necessary attention by the European people and the politicians. Any notion that European countries can continue to take in unending waves of immigrants is ludicrous. At some point, European voters are going to have to decide between the "humane" treatment of illegal immigrants and the survival of their country altogether. The immigrants will never stop trying to come. I agree with the sentiment that they should be given some food and some water and then shipped right back to their point of origin.
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The only immigration policy should be NIL from outside the EU and the rest of Europe
Malta's patrol boats should not be used to welcome invaders. They should be used to prevent people from landing on Malta's shores. If the existing men do not relish this task, paid volunteers should be asked to do so. The Maltese politicians' task is not to allow invaders in and then mumble about the EU. It is to prevent Malta from being invaded. And in the meantime developers who use these people on building projects which are defacing the island should have exemplary fines imposed on them. The "refugees" should never be given a work permit or a visa to stay, no matter how long they ahve been on the island
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Mark, why dont you tell readers, why these people come to EU, why their countries are so diseaster, and who made them so.. who is exploiting these people and their countries?
if Gordon is becoming equal to Mugabe, then imagine the dictators in africa EU supports.
dont be short sighted and look a bit beyond your noose.
why Turkey in EU? because if not, then...
i dont understand why Turkey want to be in EU? is it because the islamic governemnt is a puppet of EU.. yes, bring on the Nationalists, and then we will see if Turkey is better out or in..
anyway, EU is infiltrated by ex-communists, incompetents, and fraud people, which all their lifes and careers are build on lying, manipulation, and being a hiden frauds.. like the expense scandal..
Abolish EU right now, stop the lavish salaries and livestyles for life of these people who feed on the system. cut them off. Dont give them the power over you. why do they need it first of all?
EU is a monopoly of the elites, same people, they never leave power or they delegate it to their own people who will make sure their scandals remain hiden or manageable.
EU is falling apart, since nobody is working or doing anything, they are just using eachother in the hope that more will come.. and thats immigration.. and thats a PONZi scheme.
EU is a PONZi, and the elites a fraud.. not only publish their expenses, but also their works and CV, degrees, and you will find fraud everywhere.
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#1,
haha EU is a fraud and you beleive they can punish countries.. and who will punish EU?
be nice to Turkey, since they may shut down your energy dreams, as Russia does, and then keep talking about how good it is to have renewable energy.
people everywhere inside and outside EU are fed up with the EU of elites.. sooner or later EU will collapse under its fraud.
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what is immigration?
it is people who if in their countries, they will not let EU do whatever it wants.. so they are given the hope of EU, and loose their time and energy in EU, rather than being an obstacle to EU in their countries.
if you dont allow them in EU, then they will not allow you in their countries.. they have nothing to loose, and i wish EU brings them all back, so they can overthrough their puppet governemnts and stop trading of resources with EU..
cannt you see that instead of blaming your politicans that are stealing you and doing nothing and you are the one doing the job for them...
you are blaming immigrants that will do the job for you and you will be leaving like your politicans...
this is funny, too funny when people think they are gods
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I don't know may be it's only from my old computer, but Punic wars do not open up. No Hannibal? :o( And other threads still "closed". Must be it's until the end of the voting week?
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karoline,
the EU can punish them economically. It works with the US, it will certainly work with the Maghreb...
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What a tricky trap Mark. Your stuff closed all previous blogs, and one would assume that you deliberately did it in order to gather all our posts here.
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I would have been on the side of Carthage. Rome was under the spell of the Greeks, and Plato's ideal of society as a dictatorship divided into three; a political elite, a solider class to protect and advance their interests, and a class of ordinary folk who are deliberately excluded from political life. This model has been an inspiration throughout the Ages to all those who have lead Europe to recurring disasters (and has echoes to this day in Brussels).
Could it be though that Mark Mardell is having a dig at someone who likes to end his speeches in the style of Cato the Elder, and to ask what side you would have been on in the Battle of Marston Moor?
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Just to put this into perspective, the amount of illegal immigrants coming into Malta would translate to something like half a million if compared to the United Kingdom in terms of percentage of the population. And Malta is not as rich as the UK, and the most densely populated country in Europe (not counting Monaco and Vatican City). Surrounded by sea, so there's nowhere to spillover into.
As a legal immigrant from the Netherlands, I've found the Maltese to be welcoming, but the amount of illegal immigrants is having its effect on the country. Apart from the illegal immigrants, there's quite a few legal ones from eastern Europe, too. But there's still a lot of hidden unemployment in government services and parastatal companies, or those that used to be owned by the government but are now privatised. Quite frankly, I don't know how all these people will make a living, because the price level here is the same as, or even higher than in the rest of (western) Europe.
In the over eight years I've been living here, I've seen Malta turn from an emigration country into an immigration country. For such a small country, with such a homogenous population, it's an incredible change. There is increasing racism, but nothing different from the rest of Europe.
And illegal immigration is most definitely a European problem, not just of Spain, Italy, Greece and Malta. Immigrants don't want to come here, and the Maltese don't want them either. So there should be help coming from the north, any help really.
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10,
hehe lets talk about Turkey.. most of immigrants come from and through Turkey, a muslim country with an islamic government.. most of voters dont want EU like it is, imagine with Turkey in.. face the truth.
as a proEU payroll, can you please concentrate on Turkey, and should they be allowed in or out?
how EU can punish Turkey (economically)? please answer..
and one more thing.. it didn't work with US, since EU has never punished US for immigrants so please dont start from false premises.. so that your argument seems true.
your assumption is a fraud like EU is.
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Mr. Mardell could not pass an exam in geography. Malta is not also the most southern lying of the European countries, and taking the whole complex into consideration not to mention the TV pictures every citizen in Europe has seen for the last 5 years I would actually expect most people to know that Lampedusa, which is involved in the problem described in the article, belongs to Italy and is south-west of Malta.
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karolina001,
where do you get your facts from and why do you suddenly switch topic when faced with a legitimate argument?
About the punishment, I am talking about economic punishment. This can be applied for whatever reason. Sure, we never used it against US because they sent us illegal immigrants..in that you are right..but you are (intentionally?) completely missing the point.
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@12 Freeborn-John :o) Good idea. I'd think though Mark simply had to parachute us out of the elections prohibited these days theme back in time by time machine, as far away as possible. And what's more far away than Punic wars?
Though... with a bit of creativity... even Punic wars can be discussed in modern terms. A sample "In 870-880 two counties - Novgorod Rus and Kiev Rus were often quarreling. Because Kiev Rus was stealing cut-wood."
:o)
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QE or money printing is a sign of the decay of EU, not immigrants.
what we produce is MONEY, what we sell is MONEY, the question is who wants to buy our MONEY?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8083094.stm
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16,
if you want to compare EU economic punishment of US and Maghreb over immigration and something else..
then better compare apples and oranges if they have same taste, since they are both fruits
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16. At 12:37pm on 05 Jun 2009, Gheryando wrote:
karolina001,
where do you get your facts from and why do you suddenly switch topic when faced with a legitimate argument?
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did i ever told here before that the ECB was printing money and BBC or other owned media was not reporting it.. why?
and now it is in bbc? why so much delay?
now dont ask me anymore where do i get my facts or information.
i never switch topic.. leave what is off topic, but please answer what is on topic.. something must be on topic, dont you think so?
anyway, have a good day.
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karolina001,
In my opinion you are a troll. I am gone now to watch Tennis. Goodbye.
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WebAlice (17): If i understand Marks question correctly (which i may not) he was raising an important question by analogy, which deserves to be thought about. The Romans came to regret their destruction of Carthage, regarding it as setting an example of might happen to them. And this indeed came to pass 500 years later with the sacking of Rome. So the question is would the British come to regret their destruction of the EU project?
I believe the answer is that we would not, because EU elites have crossed the Rubicon in ignoring the results of referendums on issues of popular sovereignty, such that that the Fall of Brussels is now as necessary to the cause of liberty as was the Fall of Rome.
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"The division of Europe into a number of independent states . . . is productive of the most beneficial consequences to the liberty of mankind." (Edward Gibbon, 'The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire')
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If I wasn't busy working today, I would continue my crusade against the church on this thread.
To kick things off, y'all can discuss how the sexual practices required by the great religions generate the maximum possible population growth from the flock, and speculate as to why this breeding program might have been useful to folks who needed soldiers to fight wars.
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The bottom line is that Europe is "full" We don't want people in from outside Europe.
We don't want to "celebrate diversity" - politicians and carpet-beggars do not ordinary people. In the meantime we have to force our corrupt politicians to do what WE want them to do not what the people they associate with want them to do
In Malta's case, we don't want patrol boat officers searching feverishly for some EU law behind which to hide to justify inaction. We want them to repel invaders not give them a red carpet welcome. If they are unable to do so, then paid no-nonsense volunteers should be given the job.
As for Europe as a whole ministers should be PERSONALLY responsible for crimes committed by non-EU people they allowed in as immigrants in their term of office.
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it is difficult to credit that Europe seems such a Shangri-La that thousands of people travel for thousands of miles and risk death and appalling hardship to reach our shores
I doubt people credit 'Europe' with this: don't they assume that the rest of the EU is merely a conduit to their own country?
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Democracythreat @23
I thank you for the comments you posted on @153 *Its grim up north*. As the said blog is still closed for some unknown reason, I take advantage of the availability of this one to respond. We seem to be already in the same boat.
You wrote: *I still think we have not seen an honest account of how much the EU expansion project has cost the western European states, most of all Germany and France. I think it is this balance sheet which is forcing Sarko and Merkel to say "No more expansion."*
I think the answer to your presumption lies in the mere presumption. France & Germany are no more able to credit the eastern Europeans, hence the necessity to stop the enlargement.
It took five years to the first six member states to make work smoothly the complex *machinery* of the Common market. It will take at least ten years for the twenty seven member states to overcome the numerous problems of the newcomers until the EU becomes a solid and prosperous economic & political entity. Here lie the real challenge and the real danger for the mere existence of the EU.
Needless to say, Russia will take full advantage of the present situation to enlarge its influence and to make stronger its position. I think my country seems to be on the first line of the agenda. The Russians move heaven and earth to restore their privileged position in Bulgaria. Our main political parties are pro-Russian ones (I refer to the socialist party and to the newly established right wing party GERB). However, I do not think that Bulgaria will ridicule itself in going back to its past when it was considered (with good reason) as being the sixteenth soviet republic. The new generation is quite different. It is definitely pro-European.
I deliberately do not discuss the controversial problem of the EU security which still gives many advantages to Uncle Sam to interfere in our home affairs. What I regret much, is the evident fact that nobody still remembers the Charles de Gaulles dream of a United Europe stretching from the Atlantic Ocean up to the Ural Chain. This dream seems to be definitely berried (I am 60).
I deliberately do not mention also the even more controversial problem of Ukraine. Lets hope that Ukraine shall not become the next European battle field and that there will not be battle field at all. (For the Russians, the Kiev-Petsherin Monastery is what the Kosovo monasteries are for the Serbian people and what the Rila Monastery is for us, Bulgarians). The West still underestimates the historic truth that for at least two good centuries /after the destruction of the Byzantine Empire by the Ottomans/ Russia was the spiritual leader and the banner of all those enslaved /by the Ottomans/ orthodox people inhabiting South-eastern Europe and who owe their independence and freedom to the Russian bloodshed.
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#20 karolina001 wrote:
"i never switch topic.."
We know you don't, that is not the same as saying that you are always on topic though...!
If the EU were to stand up and admit that the EU is unworkable thus will be desolved, and Mark Mardell was to blog about it, you would carry on churning out your anti EU sound-bites like confetti at a wedding - sorry but the comment @ #21 is quite correct.
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Freeborn-John, @22.
Well. In that case Europe should quickly run a mental check-up, of availble in their Zoo-s elephants. (1 in Moscow and I don't know ab. others). The thing is one vivid picture is stuck in my mind, a whole huge wall in Hermitage, painting by a Raffael's pupil (workshop):
"Scipius Africanus entering the city after his victory in the Second Punic War or Procession on White Elephants". A very picturesque and happy scene, all procedures set out, I think can be copied and will look great if repeated in Brussels' Grand Place.
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Why are there no exit polls for the "EU" elections in the UK.
Is it illegal under "EU law" ?
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Democracythreat: glad to read that you are busy today and so your hijacking of this blog to 'continue your crusade against the church' won't be foisted upon us for a little while. Your comments are often as wayward as a boat full of migrants. :) I would suggest taking your concerns about the church to your local bishop and quit boring us. Thanks.
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'21. At 1:30pm on 05 Jun 2009, Gheryando wrote:
karolina001,
In my opinion you are a troll'
Not so much a troll, more a computer virus programmed to spout out words such as 'EU fraud, EU Elite and EU payroll' more or less at random, using the sort of syntax that makes John Prescott sound like Stephen Fry.
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#29
Why are there no exit polls for the "EU" elections in the UK.
Is it illegal under "EU law" ?
I would have thought that someone who seems to be making it their life's work to tell the world how undemocratic the EU is would have to ask such a question, but yes it is because of EU law! Because other countries in the EU are still to vote, I suspect that you would be the first to complain if the UK was the last to vote and all we heard was how well the Europhiles were doing in the rest of the EU and thus how popular the EU is!
I'm sure that someone who is such a stickler for the democratic process would want it any other way...
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this is EU elites
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8084694.stm
and this is the immigrants
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According to press reports the member states of the EU have agreed not to publish the results of the EP voting before Sunday. Holland has broken this agreement. I wonder if it means that we should make less agreements with Holland?
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Ironfranco,
Yes, i agree that the west has a very shallow understanding of the historical loyalties of the slavic people, and particularly the deep affection for Rodinu. The west often confuses a dislike of soviet rule with a dislike of russian heritage.
And that is not new. Hitler is the most famous example of someone from western Europe underestimating the strength of the bonds between the slavs. It was he that said you only have to kick in the door, and the whole lot will come crashing down. Sometimes i feel this mistake is being repeated by the EU policy wonks. They show a strange contempt for the east.
I mean, western Europeans tend to show a strange contempt for everything that is not western European, but this is particularly strange when directed at Russia and the slavs. The super confident way French and German diplomats speak these days, you would never guess that they were not able to protect their women and children 60 years ago, and that since then they have been occupied by American and Soviet amoured divisions. there is a superiority complex that is growing, and the EU may break apart because of it.
You mention the de Gaulle dream of a Europe that included Russia: one reason that is no longer on the table is because of the way Europe sees itself now, and the way it sees Russia. Russia is seen as somehow weak, and backward. Europe is seen as the future, advanced and strong.
I have watching the way this zeitgeist has been affecting the eastern Europeans over the past ten years. At first, in the 90's, the east was so happy to be rid of the soviet problems that they welcomed everything from the west. And just so, the west was very nice to the east, welcoming them into the capitalism that had been created by the Americans, and calling it the future of "all europeans".
But times change, and this goodwill is draining away fast. Now when I travel in the former soviet Union, I hear bitter voice speaking of financial colonisation from the west, and the EUSSR being no better than the Soviet system. Most notably, I hear a lot of slavs speaking with pride about the ancient history you mention: I regularly hear discussions that skip the 20th century altogether, and which speak long and loud about the bonds between the Russian culture and eastern Europe. The general feeling seems to be "Mother Russia will take us back, it is where we belong, these are our people."
Most alarmingly, from the NATO perspective, is the very common saying in the east: "We have our differences with the russians. they can be pigs. But we have always fought with them. We share faith, we share language. These are our people."
And there is growing hatred towards the arrogance of the west, which is reflected in growing pride in the military accomplishments of the Russian culture. In western Europe, there is a fantasy that says that the Germans really ought to have won WW2, and that it was all a bit unfair, the way Hitler was treated by the press. It is very easy to have a few drinks in any german pub, and reach the consensus that the holocaust never really happened, or if it did, it was nothing like what the US and the UK says it was. Always you can get Germans to agree that the Russians were worse than their own forces, in every way. The russians were more brutal, more stupid, had worse equipment, weaker soldiers. They were just lucky, and had help from the west.
Now there is some sympathy for this feeling in the baltic states, but it has been over rated, and over reported. Sure, there are german sympathizers in the baltic states, and they have been talking very loud about what is fair in history. But there are also a HUGE number of balts who resent the arrogance of the west, and who have been saying nothing whilst the pro-german history has been revised. All these folks still speak Russian, and they smoke Russian brand cigarettes, and they drink vodka on labour holidays. They have been saying nothing for the past twenty years, but they are there. They are there is large numbers, and I feel that if the EU is not very careful, they will support increasingly pro-active Russian foreign policy.
Russia has a causa belli for war in the east: the human rights of russians in Europe. We may debate the legitimacy of the argument, but only a fool would debate the appeal of the argument to the former soviets who identify themselves as slavs. And with arguments for war, it the appeal and not the legitimacy which is important.
So I watch Ukraine with intense interest. I do not think there will be a war there. I think NATO thinks that would be the scene of conflict, but I also think this is a manifestation of the crucial misunderstanding of the west, based on a lack of understanding of the bonds between slavic people.
If it all kicks off with the soviets, my guess is that EU heros will be facing the armour divisions on the fields of Poland, and then Germany. God willing it will never come to that.
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i am saying that the king is naked..
you are saying i am a computer virus or troll.
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Breaking news from the East:
Magomedtagirov has finally ben killed in Dagestan. That is going to heat things up for Georgia. Considerably.
For those not familiar with Magomedtagirov, he was the FSB man in Dagestan. The muslim militants having being trying to kill him for years. He has been killing them for years, also. Today they shot him outside a wedding.
Now why does this create tensions with Georgia?
Well, the Pankisi Gorge. The Pankisi gorge is a ravine in Georgia, and for many years it has been a regrouping location for Islamic militants (terrorists if you want) who have been fighting for an Islamic state in chechnya and dagestan. Now the Georgians have received a huge amount of military support from the USA, ostensibly to "solve" the Pankisi gorge problem.
This is widely seen as a false flag, and there is increasing evidence that the US has actually been using the Panskisi gorge as a means of funneling military aid to Georgia in order to SUPPORT islamic terrorism.
For a while that accusation has died down, because the georgians have been very careful about not being associated with what comes out of the Pankisi. But now that Russia have lost their man in Dagestan, that debate is going to open up again.
Now the reason I am fascinated by the Pankisi gorge is because the situation mirrors the swat valley in pakistan almost exactly. It is one of those weird situations that makes you wonder if god is trying to tell everyone something very sensible about the fallacies of our own propaganda.
Consider, Russia is faced with a border region to a state where it is involved in a war against islamic terorists. There is a valley there that is harbouring terrorists, and from which military strikes continue to emanate against the Russian confederation. So comparisons with the swat valley are inevitable. So will be the justification for military action against the tie chewer, in the coming days.
Just as pakistan has been forced to act, Sakashvili is going to be facing an awful lot of pressure, and anger, from Russia. They are going to go after the Pankisi gorge, would be my guess, and this will be reported in the west as an invasion of Georgian sovereignty. In russia, of course, the press will say it is identical to the situation in pakistan, where the US has sent in drones and effectively forced the pakistanis to act.
The difference, of course, is that the Russians have no influence over the tie eater. He is never going to take military action against the pankisi to make Moscow happy. So that makes things very ugly.
Watch this space!
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To democracythreat:
Eh... another mans terrorists are another mans freedom fighters. There is a reason that there are Muslim militants fighting against the Russian forces and that is because several nations are unwillingly parts of the Russian federation: do remember all the wars in Chechnya. Fighting in Caucasus region will continue as long as these nations can't become sovereign and decide on their own faith.
I also think this is a manifestation of the crucial misunderstanding in Russia, based on a lack of understanding of the bonds between Muslim people. If it all kicks off with the Muslims, my guess is that Kremlin heroes will be facing the militant divisions on the fields of North Caucasus, and then Moscow.
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"another mans terrorists are another mans freedom fighters" . And another man's freedom fighters are another man's criminala, kidnapping, murdering and imposing Shariah Law which has no place in Europe.
Whilst there are Muslim "nations" in the small area of the Caucasus there are also many Christians ie Armenians, Georgians, Osettians, Nagorno Karabach Christians, Abkhaz etc besides the Muslims themselves who will resist Wahhabi interference. Ultimately the Caucasians are not Arabs, Turks or whatever.
Moslems in the twentieth century do not fight anywhere in the fields either of Caucasus or anywhere else. They fight the way Muhammed used to fight ie through ambush, hidden bombs and/or hiding amongst civilians.
But we are discussing the EU, the "immigration" ie invasion issue, Malta and the EU elections. Our congratulations go to Geert Wilders and his party. They can claim to be Holland's only populist party. Who can now believe that Jacqui Smith who had to resign because of the expenses scandal had actually forbidden him to enter Britain? Other populist parties are cropping up everywhere in Europe in spite of the television medium being, at the moment at least, in the complete control of a nomenklatura whose beliefs can be summed up as " politically correct appeasers"
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JR, islamist "freedom fighters", as you label them, may I remind you are killing people in Dagestan - where there isn't a single Russian. It's a very, very mono-republic - absolutely all are muslims there.
Granted radical muslims killing un-radical muslims annoys Kremlin and all of us. For the simple reason that this all happens in Russia and is our responsibility.
You have posted several times that your Rohila'a dream is to get Russia split into 63 republics/constituencies, based on each of the 63 nations' nationality. (Dagestan one of them).
As it seems from your post above you find all the means as good for that, financing radical islam militants by WHAT EVER external parties justified.
So transfer you money there, granted there are many willing "accounts" that will absorb your donation. It may end up likewise with Taleban but then what's really the diff. - one "sacred" case of holy war for independence of all radical muslims combined. Un-radical may be simply want to live, but as Finland is so strongly on the side of their independence, from whenever they are, what to do. Go there preach and explain them radical chaps with AK are good for them. Life will change so much for the locals, towards Shariat laws and other improvements.
Meanwhile we'll do simply what we find proper.
__________________
democracythreat, yes, a very much of a glove thrown, head of republic's police killed by 1 shot to heart on the steps of the wedding hall.
and yes, don't know Pankisi or another, but saw a TV programme a week ago devoted exclusively to the 2 borderlines - with Georgia and with Afghanistan. Only one TV man was able to walk the walk with the border guards, in both places, other, LOL, un-fit. Each shift patrolling the mountains makes 60 km run in every round, with very heavy racksacks and all. The terraine is such that all but people and dogs are excluded; also, horses.
The infiltrating bodies are said to be scared neither of "int'l condemnation" nor of spy-drone automatic planes, neither of Tajik and Georgian borderline guards - but exclusively of the encounter with the Russian groups "on tour" along the border.
The situation seems tense to say the min., anyone visiting the bases is warned to phone LOL in advance to be met, be it Putin or TV, all grounds in approach to bases mined up in circles. Because way too many became common graves' bases, from surprise night attacks, like - a monument, plus some flowers "here used to be base No.."
Border btw Tajikistan and Afghanistan is one big grave yard it seems.
In 1993-1995 (you don't know) there was a war along the whole Southern belt, Talibs breaking into now un-armed and independent Muslim republics. Countries.
Russia took of patroles as the outer borderline became non-ours, and there was a huge Afghan drive to join Tajikistan and ex-USSR muslim republics to Afghansitan. These asked Moscow for mercy and Russian patrols were re-installed back, combined patrol groups, and they stood up enormous war, to block Afghanistan spill onto the ex-USSR Southern belt.
Jukka Rohila, so sympathetic to these "freedom fighters", pity never saw how the helicopters were taken by storm evcuating villages from the whole outer USSR border. If he saw how children and women and dogs and all belongins try to hang onto the over-loaded taking off helicopter, squeezing in through all the holes, pleading on knees to take them out, he'd (possibly) review his opinion how USSR muslim folk loves to be "liberated" by Talibs. But JR knows nil of that war, all he knows is Chechnya. Overall, you don't get that news. But these impact why muslim countries in the "belt" are very very cautuious, and un-willing to quarrel with Moscow. Should there start a second attempt to over-take them - who will help them? Finland? US will come to bomb over carpet like? Give me a break. Only - soldiers. their dogs. and their horses.
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Jukka_Rohila wrote:
"To democracythreat:
Eh... another mans terrorists are another mans freedom fighters. "
Sure. that is why i said "terrorists, if you want" in brackets, after calling them militants.
You then wrote:
"There is a reason that there are Muslim militants fighting against the Russian forces and that is because several nations are unwillingly parts of the Russian federation: do remember all the wars in Chechnya. Fighting in Caucasus region will continue as long as these nations can't become sovereign and decide on their own faith."
That is so funny! Here you are, talking about muslim fundamentalists and how they should have the "right" to bomb governments and take hostages and kill children..... because they are "nations"!!!!
Jukka, you have really made me laugh out loud. You are describing the exact same folks as the west is fighting in the Stahn as a "nation". You suggest that a bunch of religious whacko's with RPG's and AK's should be treated as having legitimate status as a NATION. that was how you described it. "these nations".
Jukka, the irony of what you say merely betrays your total lack of principles. Sure, one man's freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. But one mans' religious mercenary is not another man's nation. No way.
And you know what? The georgians also understand this fact. They are, just quietly, petrified of the muslim mercenaries thatare receiving so much international help to spread the faith. Why? Because Georgia is a christian nation, and it is surrounded by Muslim states that have sufficient poverty to export ignorant killers into Georgia in order to spread jihad.
So, you know, be careful when you legitimise a religious terror campaign with the legitimate rights of a "nation". You might find it very hard to explain why you do not support the creation of a muslim nation in France, or in Germany.
Or in Finland!
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To democracythreat (42) and WebAliceinwonderland (40):
Nope. You both are just seeing the effect not the cause. Alice first noted about evacuations in the outer regions of USSR, but forgot to mention that the reason was that Afghan and other forces just continued their fight against the Soviet invasion. In essence with your logic the Soviet army should have stopped at Nazi Germany's border and said, "okey, this is enough, our land is liberated". No. what you testified was reaping of the crops wielded earlier: invasion was answered with an invasion.
You are also forgetting that there are real nations in Russian Federation. Chechens, Tatars etc.. these groups via continued oppression of the Kremlin have gone to their extreme manifestations. Remember that Chechens turned into hardcore Muslims only after the first Chechen war were Groznyi was totally destroyed. When people have nothing anymore, they turn to seek their core values that define them against their enemies. Again, there would be no muslim militants if there wouldn't have been bloody and ruthless crushing down of the independence of Chechnya and other ex-USSR republics.
The thing is that if you are not going to admit the cause, that nations in Caucasus and in other regions have right for self determination via forming a sovereign country and that denying this and setting up machinery for their continued oppression and unwilling participation to the Russian federation, will only make people opposing this become more and more extreme, then you are going to testify the effects again and again. May I also remind you that Russia itself is testifying the effects already, the rise of fascism, racism and ultra nationalism are only manifestations of the core problem, that there are too many unwilling nations under the same roof.
Read the history, you are only looking at the effects, not the causes. Also democracythreat, you are in favor of soverignity of nations, but somehow you seem to be against the independence of various nations in the Russian federation, how is that? Why can't they be independent?
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Freeborn Jukka?
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Jukks, which self-determination? Relax. You are eager to experiment with young muslim nations "self-determination" only because you are protected from them by multi-layered filter (Russia). Like a coffee machine.
I have cause and result clear in my mind. No way the Chechens were first blasted and then "turned to the core values".
They were exactly blasted because and after they have turned towards their "core values".
Because those "core values" were militant schools somehow combined with mosques in one room! Both activities, how to say, run at once. Prayer 1 (of the 7 per day) - how to put together a belt - Prayer 2 (of the 7 a day) - how to put together a bomb - etc.
Whereas in other muslim Russia's places - there were nothing of the kind! Simply the schedule of the day - 7 prayers to the East. And nothing metal clattering, whatsoever.
Absolutely all these "core values" arrived to Chechnya from abroad. In the shape of armament, trainers, teachers, guru-s, sponsorship - whole financing of the "separation" project. You LOL forget that per 1990 there were as many muslims in Russia as there were Russian Orthodox.
We were all atheists. Chechens in 1990 did not belive in any Gods.
70 years of athesism have cured a lot of intra-nations hostilities, (as a positive thing). Why the muslims that arrive to the EU seem so different to old inhabitants? Because they are not atheists.
Why muslims who emigrate to Russia provoke zero hostilities? Because in most part they are ex-Soviet muslims - read - very, how to put it, sceptical - meeting with the likewise, let's say, sceptical, local folk.
Russians I'd say are 30/30/30 - Rus. Orthodox-atheists-pagans - in 1 person. Same our (ex-our) muslims, feeling 30 per cent Islam 30 per cent, say, sceptical, and 30 per cent - LOL - "USSR".
All those new trends "back to the roots" affected mostly young generations, as it's only 20 years that we all became simultaneously "religious" on all separate religion "fronts". And even kids - remember - still have parents who don't believe in any gods. Or, rather, "at one mysterious great power some place there of which we don't know the exact name of". Show-y - all are religious. Really - with still a large dose of sceptisim.
It's an un-religion experiment run in a large piece of the globe for 75 years - de-religion-isation. An un-heard of experiment, LOL, before, in such a human scale. And the results of it are varied, but one good thing - is Russian Orthodox aren't scared of ex-USSR muslims, like there seems to be a trend in the world now "to be scared of muslims."
Nowhere would the Chechens get these new ideas - especially packed up together with jihad and aggression - but from outside, some interested parties.
Now they are back to normal - as religious as you can only desire, JR, seriously considering 4 wives etc., fond of traditional Eastern luxury and exuberance, but no belts in the mix.
Besides, you are ignorant of what happens to the ex-USSR muslim nation when it separates. You think the only outcome is
"angry Russians start a war?" No. Tajikistan separated, as you know, exactly at that time when we didn't let Chechnya out.
Question: what did Tajikistan do, after their Secretary of the Communist Party of the Republic became their President of the Country (mind it, the case in absolutely all 14 countries who "denounced Russian communism", LOL!)
Answer: they began a war. Against each other. 33 clans. Russia took neither side. (we couldn't figure out one worthy side, :o) Russia did not interfere. Only when Tajikistan asked for help, as Afghanistan decided they are weakened by the war enough and can be grabatised, returned back to the Afghan-Tajik border - not the army - as was the case in Soviet border - simply patrols. To run joint patrols, no heavy armament, no rockets, tanks or stuff.
THE NEXT NINE YEARS Tajikistan was killing itself, war, non-stop, clans. 40 per cent of their civillians ran away out to Russia exactly during that war. Look up in wiki the numbers, a million or 2 they killed of own folk, during that war? I don't know. They ruined absolutely all there was infrustructural on their territory. Not on purpose, simply - war - like, Somali - no work, no food, sold piece by piece to Russia and to adjacent republics and to each other - all - bricks - metal pieces - all dismantled. Electricity lines - the cords - major - on high height, were cut off - and sold - for metal- by kilo! Basically, a very empty and poor place now. All destroyed there was.
How it ended - simply - without "help" from Afghanistan - they simply got tired. Lost energy, got exhausted. Now - the most peaceful people on earth. Tired of war, can't hear about war.
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Jukka, your ideas why Afghanistan decided to invade ex-USSR South are off the ground. It's not a revenge for Russian invasion.
Open your ears and listen to me: the places Afghanistan wanted to invade are, honestly, Afghanistan. We clipped off a piece of Afghanistan back in the Russian empire. Tajiks - one sample. Very late in empire times, nearly before the revolution. 1880-s something. Tajikistan - is simply Afghanistan. In revolution Tajiks stayed with communistically mad Russians only because they were a 2nd rate nation - old story - back at home in Afghanistan. Between returning back to Afghanistan and staying with mad but still Russia - they opted for Russia.
You don't understand it but for Russian ex-South Russia - is "the EU", in status.
Afghanistan simply made an attempt to take old own people back. But they got a taste of being an own republic, with own things, language schools etc, for 75 years, then were freshly made a country - and did not want back.
And why Pakistan wanted Russian South - I am lost. Pakistan is India, and from India we never cut off a piece, even in old Empire Times.
To say nothing of militants arriving from far far away.
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Anyway Jukka now I understand why Kremlin keeps only 3 real borders, of 18 countries or 19? we border with: North Korea, China and Finland.
Well, since last year Georgia as well, in the good company. :o)
The rest exist only on the map, plus customs' points - if one wants LOL to visit them :o)))) like in Ukraine/Belorussia/Mongolia/Kazakhstan etc. And if you don't want to make an extra leg - to register your goods - you can take a side road, instead of the highway, and smuggle trucks of "grey" Marlboros, fake mobile phones, or other fakes made any place in the world. Or, say, when you steal a car in Russia and want to drive it to sell it in ? any other country.
Dogs and patrols and "striped posts" are only with Georgia, China, NK and Finland.
Malta case - the case of this thread, in view of Russia's borderline experience - seems to be a problem of the borderline of Malta and the EU in general, then? That the border is not, as we say, "on the lock".
With EU with water on all sides, can't recommend specially schooled borderline dogs. neither horses. :o))))
only sea guards patrol ships.
We've got only 2 "watery" neighbours - Japan and the USA. Japanese population doesn't ran over to Russia, neither the USA. Only fishering conflicts, over fish zones, with Japan. So really no experience, with border violations happening on water.
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Mark I am familiar with "the rather lovely local fizzy drink made of bitter oranges". It's name starts with the letter "K". There is also a liquer which seems to have the same ingredients and taste.
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I look at the illegal aliens as the way former colonies of Europe are paying it back. These people learned French, Italian, German, English, and other European languages in centuries past from their European imperial slave masters who occupied their countries, turned them into slave labor, stole their land, their resources, their culture, redrew their borders not along tribal lines but to suit themselves creating many of the problems today. These people are the revenge of their forefathers for the atrocities they suffered. It seems so poetic, so fitting, so ironic. The chickens have come home to roost, the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the oppressed are now in the house of the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of their oppressors and will not be turned away. Where do you think you got your wealth from Europe? Do you think you actually created any of it yourself, is that your delusion? It was all stolen from the ancestors of these people and countless milliions more like them around the world. Now they've come to claim some of it back and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it.
It seems like a perfectly good scheme to dispose of those inmates at GITMO we can't send back home, put a few thousand Euros in their pockets and send them to Malta...or better yet to our "olde European" friends in Germany, France, Belgium, and Luxembourg for the kindness and consideration they showed us in 2002 and 2003.
BTW, who's in charge in the UK today, anyone know?
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Kreta (Crete) and Cyprus are also southern of Malta, but in relation to the theme of the article it is probably worth considering why there seems to be less emigrants there.
- it is difficult to credit that Europe seems such a Shangri-La that thousands of people travel for thousands of miles, you write.
Yes it would probably be a very long text to explain why Europe seems a Shangri-La. And it gets really complicated if we begin to take a look on the demographic development in some key members of the EU, the rules of emigration among countries, which are member of the EU plus Schengen, different labour markets with different needs and relates this to EU law and the court ruling in this field. Add to this the development politics and goals in different countries, and the political potential not least for the right wing in this theme plus a couple of other major areas at the core of the EU cooperation.
Actually I can to some extend understand why some think it is easier to escape into an irrelevant discussion about problems in quite other regions with other structures and backgrounds.
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#4 wrote: "I agree with the sentiment that they should be given some food and some water and then shipped right back to their point of origin."
If these people are risking their lives to land on Europe, some food and water followed by Mediterranean cruising will not discourage them from trying again. This is not a long term solution to the problem. We need disincentives to illegal immigration.
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#42 wrote: "Because Georgia is a christian nation, and it is surrounded by Muslim states that have sufficient poverty to export ignorant killers into Georgia in order to spread jihad."
Can you please name the "Muslim states" surrounding Georgia, which you mentioned in your post?
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With Baited Breath (M.Aurelius),
I ask
1. Whatever happened to Euroscleriosus? (sp?
2. Is there truly an EUSSR looming?
:)
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#46 wrote: "I have cause and result clear in my mind. No way the Chechens were first blasted and then "turned to the core values". They were exactly blasted because and after they have turned towards their "core values"."
HIST1864: Post 18th century History of the Caucasus (maybe this one is not offered at Russian schools)- Once upon a time, the Russians forced the Circassian, Chechenian and Abkhaz population into exodus...
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""the conversation between five women is growing heated.""
Surely it should read,
"the conversation amongst five women is growing heated."
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On Thursday morning (Election Day in UK) the mobile phone company Orange, which is 27% owned by the French state, sent out text messages telling UK subscribers that roaming charges were being reduced soon. This is something which the EU likes to take credit for. So I am wondering if Orange is sending similar messages with a political subtext to customers in other countries on the day they vote?
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Following the amazing disclosure of MPs expenses clearly showing that a great number of them are merely careerists whilst others would probably get their comeuppance in court.
There are rumours that other corporations are going to be "outed" including the BBC. Quite apart from the possibility that our money might have been put in "the trough" there is also the possibility that people are actually censoring our postings because it doesn't fit in with their own set of political beliefs and precisely their political correctness.
In this connection posters who feel that their contributions have been refused unfairly are urged to retain their returned emails for probable independent re-assessment in the future.
It would be a pity to have such a lively and interesting blog derailed by the British and American version of the KGB - the Politically Correct Police.
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If you (Europeans) do not give these settlers the opportunity to enter Europa then I consider you all rasists. Why are you now complaining about the free movement of people? Give them what they want, and let them go where they want. Europa is there to be enjoyed by everybody! Hypocrites!
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Mark, i have a complain.
Can you investigate the pro-EU payroll claims on expenses they claim to EU?
i know claims done for travel expenses by these EUpayrolls.. the travel costs for ex. 500euro, they claim 900euro just by making a falsifying the amounts.. and this is never checked by the EU, but paid in full.
should i continue for accomodation, like hotels, and other stuff..
or are they spies.
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Eurotrash
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Khriopf, @55 "once upon a time the Russians forced the Cicassians, Chechens and Abkhaz into exodus. But may be this is not taught in Russian schools."
LOL. Why not? Don't know how taught now, with the Soviet time teaching I think you'll gladly agree:
"Once upon a time vicious criminal tsarist royal regime, the newly formed in Russia expansionist capitalistic-imperialistic society, invaded multiple poor nations of the Caucasus. Especially the sea-side areas, as interested in the control of the Black Sea for sea trade capitalistic routes, in pure greed for further enrichment of capitalists ruling Russia through un-blocked travel and trade.
Moreover, tsarist Russia waged a war in that region against friendly poor proletarian peasant countries of Iran and Turkey, who controlled the area by the systems of halifats. Instead of jointly uniting all the poor classes in the Caucasus sea-side region, irrespective of their faith. And finally won over.
On 11 September 1863 an agreement was signed btw the reps of the defeated poor Caucasus nations and the criminal Russian tsar, that said that people willing to take Russian Empire citizenship are welcome and free to do so, but all those un-willing to take the citizenship have 2 months and a half time of cease-fire to relocate in masses to Turkey, with who Russia stroke a special deal on accepting Caucasus crowds.
And 30,000 people of all Caucasus nations had to collect their belongings and move to Turkey to the designated by the deal for them lands. Including Chechens, Abkhasians and Cicassians."
Without going further int the details, please take care to note that the modern All-Cicassian World Congress (a quite known organisation uniting Cicassians WW, based in Turkey and in Iran) is 100% pro-Russian, in spite of the old scores. For the simple reason that neither Turkey nor Persia who took in Circassians did not designate them an own land or allowed any separate cultural isolation, but swallowed them up and dissolved as much as possible. And the only piece of land with Circassian flag and language taught at schools and their republic's state language is strangely in modern Russia.
At that, the Circassian world Congress does not lobby a sec for the modern Republic separation from Russia - to the opposite - demands that 3 neighbour Russian Caucasus republics are included into the "Greater Circassia". Unfortunately Circassian modern neighbours in the neighbour republics-nations do not share Circassian drive for enlargement under Circassian banners and want to stay their own nations.
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"Hitler is the most famous example of someone from western Europe underestimating the strength of the bonds between the slavs."
Ekhem...How many pictures of Soviet Russian soldiers greeting German Nazis in Poland of 1939 do you need ?
Or perhaps you want me to remind western readers about Poles fighting together with Chechens in Caucusus during XIX century ? Guess against what state ?
Now I have nothing against underlining cultural arrogance of Western Europe or the fact that Soviets were less evil then Germany...but you shouldn't put forward such propaganda that will be easy to contradict.
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As to immigration I am surprised this is a problem for EU.
Introduce block on immigration and return people to their country of origin.
Introduce classification on which skills and abilities are needed for a immigrant to be accepted in EU and allow those to come. They will be productive members of EU in labour market.
Study and analyse which ethnic groups had the best records of assimiliation and contribution to the countries they immigrated to-i believe immigrants from Asia have better record and education and bussiness then those from African countries-but I could be wrong, if so correct me. Ease immigration restrictions to those who have better records, make it harder for those who have bad records.
Of course immigration should be open for the most skilled and brightest from any countries-for example with record of business success or science achievements.
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"Where do you think you got your wealth from Europe?"
Europe ? What does Slovakia or Czech Republic got to do with African or Asian colonialism. Don't try to shift the blame from Western Europe on all Europeans, thank you ;]
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Dearly Beloved, we are gathered here to mourn the passing of....;
1) First of all, it is not "Euroscleriosus" it is Eurosis of the Fliver. It's very much alive and kicking, rampant throughout Europe and clearly manifest in European ex-pats, witness Brits who emigrated to America and post on Justin Webb's blog site. You can see how for example they have brought their anti-semitism with them, something we here in America find repulsive. Still we let them stay and don't deport them because sending them back to the UK would violate our constitutional protections even for non citizens against cruel and unusual punishment. Interesting how even in the UK government, the rats are deserting a sinking ship. If one could invent a caricature of a gray, humorless, stone faced banker, one could hardly do better than Gordon Brown. I can hear the Conservatives in the next PMQT now; "Mister Prime Minister, now that you are finally about to be forced to leave office, would you say you and your party did more damage to Britain with your service as Chancellor of the Eschequeur or your service as Prime Minister?"
2) The EUSSR already exists. The Constitution and the Lisbon treaty are merely attempts to codify into law what is already a fact, a fait accomplis. The notion of a xenophobic centrally ruled all controlling dictatorship throughout all of Europe is old news. Only the most mewlish protests have been heard from a handful of people. That is because it is a sure symptom for individuals to 1) expect and prefer dictatorship over real democracy and 2) to submit to arbitrary authority without question or opposition.
To try to remain a player on the world stage, European thinkers who dreamt up the EUSSR realized that as individual nations, they were no match for the existing superpower the US and rising superpowers like China, India, Brazil, Japan, even one day perhaps Russia (although frankly I think given their cultural handicap maybe no more than a perpetual banana republic whose banana is oil and gas.) This meant a truce between the tribes, a setting aside of old animousities say between French and Germans but not necessarily those who are considered outsiders like Turks, Jews, Roma, Blacks, Orientals, Latin Americans, and certainly not Americans (although Americans can be exploited for their technological and managerial expertise where necessary.) But control by France and Germany has slipped through their fingers and now the entire process is beyond their governments' to contain. The monstrous genie they created is out of the bottle and can't be put back in.
Since the EU Constitution was voted down by the people of Holland, and most surprisingly of all to the EUrocrats the people of France, a way had to be found around the need for a plebecite. Lisbon was not only the answer by turning it into a treaty but a way to add another 8000 words to it but by changing the fonts and line spacing, deceive Europeans into thinking it was shorter, being printable on fewer pages. That what it says is incomprehensible to all but trained lawyers was deliberate. That made approval even in national parliaments a matter of emotion rather than dispassionate analysis of what they were getting themselves into. Only the Irish put what you folks call a "spanner" and we call a monkey wrench into the works. The anger is pretty intense with calls for them to vote again until they get it right, vote only in their parliament where arm twisting and bribes can easily be applied, or to kick Ireland out altogether. Opt outs are a choice to get around Ireland's objections over imposition of universal abortion rights laws. It's likely most Irish will buy the same ruse as the British did with opt outs which are opt outs in name only. In fact they merely delay adoption of all EU laws for 5 years with limitless penalties for refusal after that time to be decided by a commission which would not include the UK government.
How can such an absurd construct survive even in good times let alone during the current financial crisis is beyond me. I'll be interested to see how it manages it...or doesn't.
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"This meant a truce between the tribes, a setting aside of old animousities say between French and Germans but not necessarily those who are considered outsiders like Turks, Jews, Roma, Blacks, Orientals, Latin Americans, and certainly not Americans (although Americans can be exploited for their technological and managerial expertise where necessary.)"
To some extent this covers Central Europeans as well-certainly Germany treats those countries in EU as their rightfull inferior protectorate that needs to be guided by "Englightened European Germans".
Oh and surely not all thinkers from Europe want EUSSR-some would love USA to be dominant power in the world.
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So when do we get some results from the "EU"-elections?
I don't care if the "EU" does not want them published. I am not a citizen of the "EU". I am a prisoner of the "EU"-dictatorship.
Please puublish results NOW!
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The Maltese people are fed up with the mass invasion of illegal immigrants and the attitude of the eu. Frontex is simply a sham organization that is acting like a free ferry service for illegal immigrants instead of pushing them back to Libya from where they are leaving.
The MEPs election is also being used to send a message to the Gonzi government and the eu that the people are fed up with both of them. Turnout is less than last time even though the political partied left no stone unturned to entice the voters to go out to vote, including constant phoning at their homes to remind them that they have still not voted.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20090606/local/voting-in-the-european-parliament-local-elections-gets-underway
EP elections: Turnout down to 34% by 2 p.m.
Turnout for the European Parliament elections reached 34 percent up to 2 p.m., the Electoral Commission said. Turnout for the local council elections in 23 localities averaged 33 percent.
The figures mean that turnout for the EP elections is down 4% compared to 2004. In the last council elections held with EP elections, turnout was 35% by 2 p.m. (although the localities were different).
A breakdown of voting in the European Parliament elections shows turnout highest in the first district at 42 percent, dropping to a mere 21 percent in the 12th district - although for the election Malta and Gozo are considered as a single constituency.
District 1 ------ 42%
District 2 ------ 35%
District 3 ------ 37%
District 4 ------ 39%
District 5 ------ 25%
District 6 ------ 37%
District 7 ------ 33%
District 8 ------ 36%
District 9 ------ 36%
District 10 ------ 37%
District 11 ------ 36%
District 12 ------ 21%
District 13 ------ 31%
.....A total of 306,549 are eligible to vote today, since 15,862 voting documents remained uncollected.
When the first European Parliament elections were held in Malta in 2004, there were 27 candidates. Turnout was 82.4%.....
The people are showing they are already fed up with the eu.
These are only the % of votes that have been cast. Let's wait for the official count of valid votes to see how many are protest votes.
There is such a relatively high turn-out only because people want to also send a message to the arrogant Gonzi government as otherwise the turnout would have been much smaller.
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The vast majority of the Maltese citizens do not want one singel illegal immigrant to remain in Malta whatever the eu and the unhcr and other do-gooder NGOs (No Good Organizations) want.
We are all expecting widespread violence between Maltese citizens and the illegal immigrants
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Krzysztof Poland
"Oh and surely not all thinkers from Europe want EUSSR-some would love USA to be dominant power in the world."
Well if anyone say in the Polish government ever said such a thing in public, the French government would see to it that Poland is kicked out of the EU. How can anyone deny that the French have created a second Eden on earth run with the wisdom of Solomon? The only reason the French are willing to share power with Germany is that they know it is too big a job from them to run the EUSSR all by themselves.
How does it feel knowing that the British government having benefited from enormous sacrifices and valiant service from Polish fighters during world war II and especially in the invasion of Normandy on D-Day sold Poland out to Stalin? The great Sir Winston Churchill. You ally...and ours? Heaven help us. At least they made an effort in Iraq and Afghanistan. The French fought in the war in Iraq at the beginning...on Saddam Hussein's side at the UN and behind the scenes. They lost that battle too. They always lose. I expected nothing less than their betrayal both to protect their profits made by illegally circumventing the UN sanctions and hoping that Iraq would attack America. If you think that the British government is corrupt, if the truth were known about the French government...but we don't really need evidence, history has shown us for centuries what to expect from them.
WebAlice, are you saying that the Russian government and the Soviet government didn't tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about the way they dealt with Islamic minorities inside their country? That they distored or omitted important facts? Would you even suggest that they didn't tell the truth about the murder of the Polish army officers in the forest during WWII? Nah, would such fine straight and truthful men have lied about things like that? Forget that I mentioned it.
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"Also democracythreat, you are in favor of soverignity of nations, but somehow you seem to be against the independence of various nations in the Russian federation, how is that? Why can't they be independent?"
Hang on, I am not in favour of the sovereignty of nations. I am in favour of the sovereignty of people. Insofar as the nation state embodies the legitimate sovereignty of its people, then I am in favour of that nation. But the nation state itself, which so often is not representative of its people, is not something I approve of.
And that is why I side with Russia against those who would create, with celebrated violence, theocratic regimes that owe ideological loyaties to international religious movements. Now these religious warriors and call the territory they want a "nation". So what? It is still a religious regime that indoctrinates children with appalling superstitions, specifically such that the people will be easily controlled with fearful threats of punishment in the afterlife.
At the same time, I don't like what Russia is, or where it is going. I dislike socialism and government by the party for the party. And thus I also dislike the UK. And I dislike the vision of Barrack Obama. Whatever he says about liberty, he believes in a state that SAVES the poor stupid people.
But there is a world of difference, or perhaps an "age" of difference, between a religious theocracy and a party political state. At least in a socialist state women can be taught science, and to read and write. At least in a socialist state, you have some chance of reducing population growth and war for the private profit of the priestly class. At least in a socialist state, there is a chance that evolving classes of educated professionals will liberate themselves by pushing towards direct democracy, and the sovereignty of the people.
Theocracies, however, seem to be a complete dead end. They stagnate, for thousands of years. Theocracies are defined by doctrine that prohibits scientific thought and therefore technological development. theocracies are, purely and simply, the fraudulent farming of the lower classes by the priestly warrior class at the top of the social order.
So if I have to choose between islamic theocracy (or christian or buddhist or any other kind of theocracy) and the despicable Russian government headed by people like Putin...... I choose Putin.
Putin and Brown, these guys are party animals. They have been trained and paid for by the party since they were at high school. They are a huge obstacle to the sovereignty of the people. But they do not stand in the way of reason itself, and they do not force their people to trade the material quality of today for the fantastic and spurious qualities of an afterlife.
And that is why I say you have no principles, or rather that you choose to exhibit none in this debate. You are simply anti-Russia, and you find yourself advocating the rights of religious warriors as a result.
Like you, I have grave reservations about the way Russian civil society is developing, and certainly the way Russian political life conducted itself over the past 100 years. But I don't hate russians as a result, and so I do not miss out on the many good things that come from Russian culture.
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Maltesecitizen wrote:
"The vast majority of the Maltese citizens do not want one singel illegal immigrant to remain in Malta whatever the eu and the unhcr and other do-gooder NGOs (No Good Organizations) want.
We are all expecting widespread violence between Maltese citizens and the illegal immigrants"
Well, I hope then that for your sake you define "Maltese citizen" in a way that favours you.
This debate about "immigrants" is very peculiar. What is an "immigrant"? Surely it is a legal construct?
My own story is something that forces me to have some sympathy for these objects of easy hatred. I have Scottish heritage, but was born outside the EU. But my wife is Lithuanian, and after the creation of the EU she moved to the UK and obtained a UK passport.
Now my great grandfather fought in Europe, ostensibly for the liberty of the people in the UK. His son, my grandfather, also fought in North Africa, for the same purpose. As a younger man, I swore an oath to the Queen of England, as she was my head of state. I promised to do my best to kill anyone I was aksed to kill, for the glory of the UK and the welfare of its inhabitants.
Now my wife.... her great great grandfather fought with Russian Tsar against the British in the crimea, and her grandfather fought with the bolsheviks against the British in the baltic states. Her father fought AGAINST the UK allies, the red army, as a partisan in the second world war.
So for many generations, my family have had an Anglo name, and have sworn loyalties to the British tradition. And my wife's family have a tradition of fighting the Brits that is just as long and distinguished.
You can imagine my surprise when we enter the UK together, and the only reason I am permitted to enter is because she is my wife!
So... all these people who scream about "their" country, and "their" rights to exclude other people.... All I can say is that I am acutely bemused.
You can make or break a nation with the stroke of a pen, and you can make millions of people immigrants or beloved brethren just as easily. And yet folks do seem to get so excited and definitive about the danger posed by immigrants. People are so caught up in their pride, and their fear, that they forget that all nations are artificial constructs, and that these nations are scarcely constructed for the benefit of the people who love them so.
That is why I laugh openly at the Swiss who wave their little Swiss flags and talk to me about the terror of the immigrants ruining their fine nation. They only confide in me because I am white, and because they think I am English. If they knew the truth, that i am only allowed in Europe because I married a Russian who grew up in the soviet union..... Well I guess they would be so surprised that they would drop their little flags.
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democracythreat, LOL!
Now, I've got something to back up your opinion that it's alright to be an emigrant and all is, how to say, awful relative.
The Caucasus war came up somehow here, fought by Russian Russians (as our Polish blogger has rightly pointed out) against poor Caucasus nations.
Indeed, Russian Russians always comprised the majority in Russia. 52-60 per cent; in Ivan Grozny times, in Russian Empire times, in the USSR, in modern Russia.
They set the style and fashion and ruled the countries/empires and all, one would think.
Now, let's look who are these "Russian Russians" (the 50-60% of population, who identified themselves so in various census-es, had it written in passports for foreign travel in 1820-1917, in USSR time passports' "nationality" line, and who also consider themselves (by the latest census entry) "Russian Russians".
I looked up the list of "Russian Russian hero-s of the Caucasus war" (lasted 150 years, so not a bad time-cut):
General Nedgardt
General Freitag
General Knorrring
General Grabbe
Marquis Pauduchhe
General Gudovich
Baron Rozen
General Miklashewski
General Lisanevich
General Simonovich
General Kotlarewski
General Paskevich
General Fezi
General Kluki-von-Klugenau
General Emmanuel
General Tekkelli
Count Shewarshidze
Count Aurgutsky
General Passek
General Mischenko
General Shwartz
General Riad
and, finally (because I lost all hope LOL there was a single Russian Russian in the army)
General Golovin
General Ermolov
General Raewski
and General Galafeev
and even with Raewski, you know... I'd have doubts, LOL.
Now, let's look who ruled Russian Empire 1613-1917.
The most Russian of Russian tsars was Alexander II. Spectacularly drank vodka, cut wood, was a man of wide gesture and all. That's his phrase "While Russian tsar is fishing - Europe can wait" (answering the call of his court men, to stop sitting with a fishing rod by the pond, while ambassadors are getting nervous in multi-hour wait.
Unlike the rest of Romanov dynasty, he had the officially recognised max. of the Russian Russian (slav) blood in the combination.
He was very proud of it, and made it publicly known "I am the first real Russian tsar, the most russky of all: 1/32!
:o)))))))
Citizens of course rejoiced; indeed a historical max.
Since Ivan the Terrible married a Kabardin (Caucasus nation No 100 girl), you know. We never hoped even for 1/32 in the ruler.
1/32 - not bad. By our standards.
Well, I won't dwell upon Russian oligrachs current list.... the first 27 wouldn't be slavs, :o)))))
will simply quote the never-dying Russian Russian joke, that goes in variations through the centuries:
- Is it true that Russian government constantly fights its own people?
- No. It's own people governments never fight. Only Russian people.
No 2
Two, say, rulers, sit in a dug-out, and onto them roll over "20 German tanks". (can be whatever. this century the version is "20 German tanks". what'll be the next century - I don't know yet. Before - Napoleon horsemen, Chinghiz khan horde, whatever)
So two rulers sit in the dug-out, and onto them roll over 20 German tanks.
- ?? Looks like time to surrender?
- ???!!!! Are you - what?! Russians - don't surrender!
- Russians - let them. But you and I - how does this concern?
____________________
You got the angle. Russia - it is a concept. From the nationalistic point of view - I stand for it, as a concept. Also, because I vaguely feel LOL ;o)))) that if I want to find real Russian Russians - they are :o))))) LOL! some place here. don't know where. but must be in spots bits and places, LOL. abit here a bit - 1/32 there. you never know.
So just in case I stand up for us all. Nevermind our Minister of Trade was Gref now Mrs Nabiluillinn. May be there is, 1/64, somehow, purely symbolically, in each one.
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democracythreat
"People are so caught up in their pride, and their fear, that they forget that all nations are artificial constructs,"
Malta is not an artificial constructed nation.
What would you say if suddenly around half a million illegal immigrants arrive in England 99% of whom are not even able to read or write their own name?
That is what the number of illegal immigrants mean on a comparative population basis apart from the much greater population density of Malta when compared to England.
We are the smallest and most populated nation (apart from Monaco and the Vatican)in Europe without any natural resources except our workforce.
So do you expect that we welcome immigrants and illegal immigrants with open arms?
As for Maltese citizens they are those who are naturally born in Malta and their foreign wives/husbands. Those are the only ones who have a right to reside in Malta and the sooner the foreigners realize that the better for them.
As for illegal immigrants we do not want our country to degenerate like what happened in Briston, Paris etc.
We have already had illegal immigrants raping persons including foreigners, trafficking drugs, engaging in prostitution, murders, attempted murders, attacking people and security personnel, armed robbery, riots, setting their quarters on fire while we pay every time to repair them and all sorts of crimes.
They do this after we have saved them from the sea and after destroying their papers, giving them lodging, clothing, food, health services, pocket money, internet, mobiles, phone cards etc all paid for by us the Maltese taxpayers.
So you can see that whether the eu, unhcr and the NGOs like it or not, we shall make sure that not one single illegal immigrant shall be allowed to remain in Malta.
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"Caucasus - under me. Alone, in the height
I stand over snows on the edge of the cliff
An eagle, ascended from distant er? summit
Is hoovering motionless on level with me.
Here rivers are born that tear mountains asunder
And landslides begin with a crash of a thunder"
(1829 don't worry, dear moderators)
What's that? That's one Russian, Ramzan Kadyrov (president of Chechnya most of his time) reciting his favourite poem, with much expression and gestures, right now on TV, on the occasion of country celebration and festivities of the birthday of another Russian, Alexander Pushkin (by mum. by dad - Hannibal, LOL! Our, how to put it politically correct, Afro-Russian "Sun of the Russian Poetry", "Mozart of Russian poetry", "Pushkin is - Russian everything" , "Encyclopaedia of Russian life" and other epithets.
:o)
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Pushkin's dad name - check it out: Ivan Petrovich Hannibal. Simple and beautiful, isn't it? :o)
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Mavrelius , "cultural handicap" (of ours), LOL!
"Can it be that Sov. government didn't tell citizens truth, whole truth etc. ab how it dealt with Caucasus nations?"
Mavrelius, keeping in mind who dealt and when - you'd easily figure out that no, indeed, the Sov. government didn't.
Stalin had another fit of suspiciousness in 1943. Blamed Circassians, Chechens and Ingush that they collaborate with Hitler. This was rich, because poor Circassians, for example, not a single one of them had ever had a chance to meet a single German, to say nothing ab "collaborate". But for Stalin such nuances were really irrelevant.
This was also rich, because previously Stalin was famous for labelling individuals "enemy of the people" (in millions of individual people), then the mania further mis-developed into blaming whole professions and trade-s announced all of a sudden "enemies of the people", but as to whole nations - that was the first display of the symptoms. Lucky that the last one as well. Must be he was over-worried by war that troubled his troubled mind additionally extra. So he exported by trains, in 1943, large quantities of the 3 said Caucasus nations to Kazakhstan.
Now, in this madness there were still some sense. A. all the exported folk were anti-Georgian in the region, and this was a bit of clearing out the field for his own nation, kind of provoked by own old scores.
B. Kazakhstan was a huge empty place a steppe with wind and nothing there and Stalin wanted it to become a bread-growing area, to compensate for the loss of Ukraine to Hitler. Somebody had to work the fields and local population was three and a half kasakh people, 3.5 of other steppe folks, 3.5 of the third tribe, and honestly, there was never no "Kazakhstan". So all enemies of the people - several millions of Russians, good quantities of Chechens, Ingush and Circassians were evicted into the empty steppe and told "dig". The name for the new republic was quite a chancy choice. Must be someone met a kasakh in the steppe, asked what's your nationality? and named the steppe "Kazakhstan". (could have ended up anything else).
And no, nobody in the USSR noticed the eviction of Caucasus nations into Kazakhstan, only those Russians who met them up there in the similar shoes. There was a war on, the country was occupied, nobody knew any news apart from what single radio wave says. Besides, Stalin didn't advertise it.
Only when he very luckily died, Khrushev by government act officially "rehabilitated" whole 3 nations and all individuals in millions who'd also ended up in Kazakhstan, and all returned back to places. All but not all, some still stuck, houses and children and all, and now make up Kazakhstan country together with kazakhs.
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democracythreat: Which theocracies have stagnated for thousands of years ? (Are there any that have lasted for thousands of years ?) Which theocracies are you thinking of that prohibited all scientific thought ?
The British government forbids you to visit the UK unless you are in the presence of your wife ? Is that due to your current citizenship ?
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SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
So when do we get some results from the "EU"-elections?
I don't care if the "EU" does not want them published. I am not a citizen of the "EU". I am a prisoner of the "EU"-dictatorship.
Please puublish results NOW!
Totally agree with you.
I am not a EUseless citizen, I don't care for the EUseless citizenship and the eu petty dictators includign barroso and poettering know where to shove it.
The governments of the member countries are clearly showing without any shadow of doubt that by obeying the EUseless diktat of not publishing the results means that we are living in a dictatorship dictating orders from Brussels.
Who want's to continue living in such a dictatorship?
Let's hasten the demise of the EUseless united states of europe perpetrated by the federalists and imposed upon the european people.
Let's start a European-wide movement to get rid of the EUseless united states of europe and scrap it into the dustbin of history where it rightly belongs.
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The MEPs election in Malta is seen as a means for the people to get their own back on the incompetent and arrogant Gonzi government.
It is not only the people who are fed up with his government but the following shows that even his own MPs voted against him at the MEPs election
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20090607/local/malta-and-international-press-digest
Sunday, 7th June 2009 - 06:57CET
Malta and international press digest
Illum also leads with the exit polls. It also claims three Nationalist MPs voted Labour to vent their frustration. (Illum is a newspaper)
As anyone can see, although approximately 78% of eligible voters voted in the MEPs election, the vote was more a vote of protest against the government than a vote for the MEPs.
This is apart from waiting to see how many protests votes and invalid votes will be found when the votes are scrutinized and counted
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Have a look at the latest statistics about Malta's MEP's election.
http://www.maltastar.com/pages/ms09dart.asp?a=2402
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For Results results
http://www.maltastar.com/pages/ms09dart.asp?a=2379
For results by candidates
http://www.maltastar.com/pages/ms09dart.asp?a=2388
For results by districts
Districts 1 - 7
http://www.maltastar.com/pages/ms09dart.asp?a=2391
Districts 8 - 13
http://www.maltastar.com/pages/ms09dart.asp?a=2392
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@karolina001
"why their countries are so diseaster, and who made them so.. who is exploiting these people and their countries?"
This argument may have applied in 1909 but it is now a ridiculously fraudulent argument. The people-exporting-countries have all the possibilities and resources available to them to create a thriving economy, but they don't. The causes are 99% internal and not the fault of external companies or governments. In many of the African countries people are victims of their own corrupt government but the general population is not prepared to accept any responsibility for their actions or situation and don't take any action to change things. Religions are big contributor to the problems by deliberately creating a population explosion. Charity handouts by the west encourages people to think that the solution to their problem lies in a super-soft Europe.
Africa must solve its own problems, if they don't then it is NOT Europe's problem.
If do-gooder Europeans want to help then they should offer real help at the source, but also ask themselves why 'commercial' organisations won't risk investments in those countries ... because those countries would rather abuse them than make a serious attempt create a viable economy.
Take Gaza as an example. Their neighbours have a thriving economy with many many external investors, but no-one will invest in Gaza? No surprise there, who wants to invest in a hornets nest of violence?
Live peacefully and Africa will have a good economy and people won't come to Europe.
But Europe is the easy option for them. So close the European doors, arrest the boat captains, blockade the coasts (eg Senegal, Tunesia) and punish the sending countries.
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Just announced on the media.
Gonzi's goovernment bites the dust.
Sampling of all the ballot boxes in Malta's EP elections give PL an absolute majority.
The people have spoken and they have used the EP elections to send the message to Gonzi that he and his incompetent and arrogant government are NO longer wanted.
The only honourable way is for Gonzi to resign and hold general elections right now.
But is Gonzi honorable?
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PN General Secretary has just been on TV and conceded defeat and said that PL got 57% and PN 40%
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Web Alice;
Evidently, telling the truth about Joseph Stalin breaks the house rules. I always suspected that the moderator is a Bolshevik revisionist.
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So Maltese Falcon, if your country is being invaded, what is your government going to do about it? Look at what happend to Fiji.
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Maltesecitizen But is the PL going to send the invaders/unwanted immigrants back? Or is it merely going to whinge about the EU? These "illegals" do not belong to the EU.
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Maltesecitizen "The people have spoken and they have used the EP elections to send the message to Gonzi that he and his incompetent and arrogant government are NO longer wanted" Jolly local parish politics. But what would the opposition want to do with the unwanted "immigrants" ?
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Maltesecitizen, when the elections will be discussed, I mean, after, do tell me please - is the Maltese Order still there? I know it's kind of silly to ask, same if you'd ask me "How many bears in St. Petersburg streets", but I am plain curious, sorry. It was so famous in its time, but may be it is still kept somehow, the Masons' Society, can not be that ended up.
I'm afraid all we know ab Malta here is Maltese Cross, Maltese Order, then no news for a long time (for multiple reasons :o) and then that it is now language schools place, like you can buy 2 weeks or a month of English study in Malta and bathe in the sea simultaneously, combined tours sold a lot here.
?
Thank you.
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democracythreat
"People are so caught up in their pride, and their fear, that they forget that all nations are artificial constructs,"
"That is why I laugh openly at the Swiss who wave their little Swiss flags and talk to me about the terror of the immigrants ruining their fine nation."
Well I don't laugh at what people want. I want to cry at seeing how our democracy has been usurped by self-interested incompetents, corrupt and arrogant to boot. Or even worse, politically correct corrupt incompetents. Political Correctness, that vile tribal invention by Wall Street doesn't exist in Southern Europe.
I am with you Maltesecitizen. Just disregard the EU, UNHCR and the NGOs. Reclaim your Island.
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MarcusAureliusII
"So Maltese Falcon, if your country is being invaded, what is your government going to do about it?"
I suppose this is meant to be a serious qurstion not a joke. Ihe onus is not only on the government but on the ordinary citzen. Repel the invader!
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On the edge;
Why wouldn't it be a serious question? Look at what happened to California. Even in a country that is largely empty and has seemingly limitless capacity to absorb immigrants, the US can only absorb them at a given rate. Any faster and they become an increasingly intolerable drain on society and on the economy. 30 years ago when Prop 13 was passed and I lived in California, the government of California had a 15 billion dollar surplus in the bank or at least that was as much as it couldn't hide. Now it has a 40 billion dollar debt having spent on average 2 billion a year more than it took in for thirty years. As Argentina learned, that can't go on forever. A lot of that, currently an estimated 5 billion a year is for services for illegal aliens, educating their children, providing them with medical care ($7000+ a year equivalent for medical insurance for each person alone), police, etc. California's projected defecit this year alone was about 24 billion, a catastrophe. All this because Californians wanted to be politically correct....and financially incorrect. I don't mind my tax money helping bail out victims of disasters within the US that nobody has control over such as Katrina but this was a self inflicted fatal wound. These people cost the economy far more then they pay it back in return but there is no end to it and all efforts to stop it such as building a fence are decried by liberals as racist. In the 80s, many were given citizenship in the ruse that doing so would bring an end to it but here we are no with an estimaed 12 million more and it is altering our demographic balance. The good news is that by the first generation born here, they become fully assimilated. But if a nation cannot control its borders, it does not have sovereignty over its land and is not an independent nation. If I were a Maltese, I'd say it would be time to tell most of these people to go home or be dragged home and if they don't tell you where home is, imprison them until they do. But then that's not for me to decide, I'm not Maltese.
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giltedged
The Opposition was the party that forced a discussion in Parliament about the illegal immigrants invasion because Gonzi's government (Gonzi being an ex-Catholic Action leader) only obeys the eu and the JRS although it was the Campaign for National Independence http://www.cnimalta.org that pushed for the debate to be discussed by collecting signatures for a petition for Parliament to discuss the issue.
The CNI is pressing the government to repatriate all illegal immigrants back to Libya from where they are leaving, while the Opposition is pressing the government to return all illegal immigrants who do not qualify for refugee status.
Out of some 13,000 that have arrived here (which taken on a comparison with Malta's population would be equal to some 500,000 in England) only slightly more than 200 have been granted refugee status but as Gonzi only obeys eu and JRS most of them are still here living like leeches on our taxes.
You can have a look at CNI's webpage which is in Maltese and English, the English pages link can be found on the first page or you can go straight to http://www.cnimalta.org/e1.html
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Just announced a few minutes ago.
PL gets the fourth (reserve) seat in the MEP elections.
PL 4, PN2
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