Sarko the Red
LYON:
The rally for President Sarkozy's UMP party was stylish and smooth, but witnesses to this were thin on the seats. The well-groomed, middle-aged and older were scattered throughout a large and very smart auditorium.
Perhaps potential supporters had as much trouble finding it as we did. Although it is meant to be Lyon's biggest venue it wasn't showing up on the GPS.
A man getting out of his car for a jog round Lyon's lovely central park dismissed us rudely. "Don't disturb me," he grumbled as we asked for directions. A young man with a wispy beard was much more helpful when we interrupted a long kiss with his androgynous girlfriend, pressed against her bike. Perhaps he needed the air. Anyway my election slogan is: "Trust snoggers, not joggers".
With his help we found a soulless underground car park that took us into one of those huge modern complexes that bring the word "regeneration" to mind. You can find your way around, navigating by the orange giant or massive green penguin, huge plastic-looking statues littered among the nearly empty swanky restaurants. An ideal space, except there seems very little reason for anybody to be there.
The rally itself featured a large comfortable set with UMP candidates sitting comfortably and attentively, jumping to their feet to give polished (if not always fascinating) answers to questions about the economic crisis, swine flu, the euro and French troops abroad.
But the highlight was from the man who wasn't there. A punchy, powerful film featuring Nicolas Sarkozy, delivering his verdict on the financial crisis in a grave rumble. 
It's intriguing. When I spoke to the Socialists, the official opposition, about the supposed rise of radicalism (see yesterday) they wanted to talk about how they were the only real alternative to the UMP and how this wasn't an election where you could vote for the left in the first round as there is only one round. Sound tactics, but hardly a clarion call to the dispossessed.
President Sarkozy, on the other hand, was stressing how he wants to restrict and reform capitalism, find a new capitalism, how he led Europe in telling Washington there had to be new rules.
We've had Sarko the American, during the election campaign, for his praise of Anglo-Saxon economic liberal values. We've had the hyper president. We've had the bling-bling president. Now Sarko the Red arise!
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~29~RS~)
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Quand l'Europe veut, l'Europe peut = "what Europe wants, Europe gets (can have)" Is this really such a good slogan? Perhaps the French respond to such anaemic sloganising, but the British need more power in their language. Where are the 'Labour isn't working' sloganising? Is this UMP slogan deliberately dull? Where is the fire in belly of politics, doesn't anybody care?
Europe is important to all Europeans yet there seems to be a conspiracy of boredom with regard to these elections. I speculate that this is deliberate. No national government wants to cede, or even admit that it has or needs to cede power to another institution and this emasculates all Euro democracy and this is a pity.
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Sarko the Red arise? Mark, ever since the communist rule I have never read or heard such funny and inadequate description of a French president. Even Francois Mitterand who pretended to be a socialist was never considered seriously as a leftist leader, not to mention of Charles de Gaulle or Pompidou
The speech Sarkozy launched remembers me of President Roosevelt who gathered all the kings men in the late twenties of the XX s. and briefed them of the eventual red up rise if they wouldnt accept to improve the living standards of the labor force, that is to say to reform capitalism.
I certainly cannot make parallel between the big depression of the 20s and the challenge all European leaders are facing to-day. One thing is sure, capitalism is to be reformed. The present liberal model of ruling the economy seems to be very risky and unpredictable. The rise of radicalism is evident and nobody can foresee its eventual impact on the economy and the social life.
The reforms to be adopted will undoubtedly test the whole Convention called European Union. We are just at the beginning of the process. Poor, poor Europe
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Just a little bit of news from the South of Belgium, we are currently adorned with the traditional billboards that come out at election time and the party's have pasted the usual garish posters of their candidates in the officially allotted spaces. During the past two days it has rained a lot and now all the posters for the Ecolog greens have slid off the boards near me and messed up the pavements underneath, all the other posters survived the rain. Moral of the story, more proof that Green methods don't work as if they can't even make a glue that sticks what can they do.
As for Sarko, he is fast running out of new postures to take and a Belgian mate who lives in France said that it is hard to tell who is disliked more by their populations, Sarko or Brown.
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John_from_Hendon - I doubt it's a conspiracy, most political slogans are unmemorable. As a real politics geek I can remember precisely two: "Double Whammy" and "Labour Isn't Working" - both from over 15 years ago.
The elections are underemphasised because there aren't pan-European campaigns, so the consequences of voting one way or the other are not clear.
In any case, the centre of political power is still (whatever Eurosceptics say) at national level. National governments control the Council of Ministers, and national governments make the laws on most things that voters really care about. There's a lot of talk about 80% of our laws coming from Brussels, but even leaving aside the fact that the figure itself is untrue, it assumes that a statutory instrument amending the subsidy regime for hazelnuts is of the same importance to voters as, say, the NHS Act or the Criminal Justice Act.
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John_from_Hendon i think the slogan actually means, "when europe wants, europe can." which is more in the yes we can line of things...
as for sarko the red, he may just be tapping into the public disgust at how this crisis originated, but hopefully it can be something that takes the EU towards a more socially responsible governance...
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The reason Sarko did not show up for the rally in person is...that he couldn't find the place either. He's as lost in Lyon as he is in Paris. He's a politician looking for a cause. His theory, first you get elected, then you figure out what you stand for. Still looking. He'd better find it before the next election though. As things stand he won't be able to run on his achievements...if there are any by then to run on. But that's all right. In French politics, rhetoric is all that matters anyway. The one with the most hot air rises to the top.
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#5. romaVillan wrote:
"when europe wants, europe can.",
That's what my initial translation gave me too. But I didn't find that it made much sense? I supposed as it is a political slogan then it is best fot it not to make too much sense, but the last phrase 'Europe can' immediately in English suggests the question 'can what?'. It is excessively vague. I don't think it translates into English that well, so it is just as well M. Sarkozy isn't campaigning in the UK! It just goes to show me how I should stick to more direct translations rather trying to make too much sense of it! Thanks for the translation help. I've still no idea what Europe 'wants' from the UMP! Perhaps they don't know!
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JFH
""when europe wants, europe can.",
That's what my initial translation gave me too. But I didn't find that it made much sense?"
It's not supposed to, it's French. Little if anything French makes sense...to an Anglo Saxon mind. Maybe it makes sense to the French. If they like it, it makes sense to them even if it doesn't say anything.
"I don't think it translates into English that well'
It's only a one line slogan. If it can't translate well into English, how would a 400 page Constitution translate into English...and the languages of 26 other nations? These are the laws you will live by...whether anyone in Britian understands them or not. You'll find out what they mean when you violate them and are handed down the consequences for it by an EU judge...in Brussels...or Strassbourg...in French.
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#7
"What Europe wants, Europe gets"
Surely it's quite simple, Europe gets what it votes for [wants].
Taken in isolation the slogan is meaningless but in the context of an election meeting or a what ever it's obvious! Talk about a blog to nowhere...
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#7 - John_from_Hendon
"Europe - where there's a will, there's a way"?
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Boilerplated;
"What Europe wants, Europe gets"
The Irish voters notwithstanding and evidently many Brits antipathy as well, if the EU is what they want, that's what they'll get;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8045178.stm
Seems not all the British are as gung ho about the EU as some would like to believe.
From West Kirby;
"In Abbey Road she finally finds a willing victim.
"Hello," she starts off, brightly, "I'm Jacqueline Foster, one of the Euro-candidates I was an MEP for five-and-a-half years"
The woman in the doorway listens for a moment and starts to catalogue the ills that plague her life - potholes, the failures of social services, the sign at the top of the road that lists traffic accidents, the closure of local libraries."
And then there's the NHS.
London's bridges may be falling down but in Hungary they are going up in part thanks to the British taxpayers.
For people who seem so unhappy about being in the EU, there doesn't appear to be much will to fight it. Maybe Brits aren't Europeans after all. If they were, what Brits want, Brits would get. Out?
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#10, threnodio,
I think I prefer your translation to the literal translation as it opens the door to the truth, i.e. will and way. It's just a shame that the 'will' is so misdirected to a 'way' that is mostly unacceptable and failing, and the sooner the falsehood of the federal centralist Lisbon treaty is put in the WPB the better. If there is one thing the current crisis has shown it's that Nationalism and Protectionism are as alive and kicking as they always have been, making the federalist approach visibly as false and deceptive as it has been from it's inception.
PS. Surely there must be some whistle blowers in the EU Parliament willing to leak details of the expense claims of EU MEP's as I'm certain they would make the majority of the UK MP's claims look like peanuts. If not then it confirms the inherent corruption of the Brussels/Strasbourg fiasco.
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#11
"Seems not all the British are as gung ho about the EU as some would like to believe."
The problem for them is that far more than they would like do see the advantage of a large, powerful, EU that will amongst other things be able to keep the corporate USA under control (nice to see that Intel has felt the wroth of the EU and their antitrust rules today) - could be why some in the corporate USA, allegedly, feel the need to meddle in EU politics by bank-rolling certain anti EU political parties on this side of the 'pond'.
"London's bridges may be falling down"
Funny you mention that, at least Europeans know the difference between "London Bridge" and 'Tower Bridge'...
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MarcusAurelius II, it is said that love and hate are often intertwined, the line between those two extreme feelings being quite thin and sometimes blurry, so...could it be that you're a closet francophile ?! A secret admire of Montesquieu, Proust, Hugo, Voltaire, Rousseau or...Lafayette ? Could you actually be smarter than you sound, could you ?!!!
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#11. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Curiously, in some from of foreign dialect of English use in some remote outer reach of the English diaspora I guess it is some form of pidgen he/she uses - I wonder if there is a dictionary!
Billious Maximus you have previously indicated that you had a unfortunate negative early experience in your formative years with a 'European' - perhaps it was because you made little effort to learn the language? Try reading novels in French as I do. They have quite a few to choose from. (I expect that there are bookshops that are able to supply you even in your country! If not I am sure that they can be obtained by mail order - perhaps in a plain wrapper to avoid your fellow member of the NRA think that your red-neck has faded!)
I am actually quite interested in political slogans as a form of haiku they are often more illuminating (in any language) that their authors might think.
The explanation taken from the about 50000 Google hits for the phrase is:
"Ce slogan porté par nos listes aux élections européennes illustre bien notre volonté de faire de lEurope une Europe politique, une Europe qui agit, qui décide, qui avance"
This (roughly) translates as: "This slogan, used by our list of candidates in the European elections summarises the way in which we wish to see one political (united?) Europe, one Europe which (together?)acts, decides and advances."
OK so that is fairly anaemic too but at least is sees the UMB as part of Europe - the word order of 'acting', 'deciding' and 'advancing' seems odd. I would have through that first one should decide then act and the result is an advance, but this is still a political slogan. The chosen word order is a bit too much like shooting first and asking questions later.
The one thing I really find is really difficult to understand is the logic of wanting to get elected to serve on the European Parliament when the party or candidates only policy is to destroy the EU.
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it's a standard saying that threnodio translated correctly, where there is a will, there is a way.
we have a similar saying in Russian, only it's not used optimistically about future things. but , say, when you see a ? Russian-make car actually moving along the road :o) or when you fix something un-fixable, and then it miraculously falls into shape,
you look at your own hands' making LOL with immense satisfaction and say "wow! it appears we can do things, after all. when we real want to. in the first place. :o)
literally (we have) might when we want.
/ get focused on it
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Basically means Jolly good! :o) against all odds.
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may be the English get confused here by "want" . Like,
"for the want of ... , Europe ..
:o)
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#12
"If there is one thing the current crisis has shown it's that Nationalism and Protectionism are as alive and kicking as they always have been, making the federalist approach visibly as false and deceptive as it has been from it's inception."
That might be true amongst the (unthinking/dogmatic) population and politico but I didn't see much 'Nationalism and Protectionism' at the hight of the crisis or since (and what attempts there have been has been stamped on PDQ by Brussels), no trade barriers came down, no lorries were turned back at 'state' boarders, the Channel Tunnel trains kept rolling. It's very clear that it's only UKIP, the SLP and the BNP (in the UK) that seem to be pushing for such Nationalism and Protectionism as well as full withdrawal from the EU as a way to solve the economic crisis - funny how the G20 rejected such calls and actually went along with more or less what the EU had decided to do collectivity as a 'block'.
When you hear that many Irish are now changing their opinion, to that of supporting the Lisbon treaty, and that the new Icelandic government is seriously considering making a membership application one doesn't see many turning away from the concept of the EU concept - more seem to want to join, if those existing applications from the east are counted too, than leave! That's not to say that the EU's very existence wasn't threatened by the banking crisis, but then again so was the USA and the very heart of capitalism - as it is much of the west is reliant on China at the moment, using some of her vast stockpile of US Dollars to keep us in the west all buying their cheap goods and services.
Yes, Europe will get what it chooses...
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#10. threnodio wrote:
#7 - John_from_Hendon
"Europe - where there's a will, there's a way"
Now that always reminds me of the multiple meaning of the word 'will' I always think first of the sense of a testament (as in last will and testament) rather than the sense of a desire.
French is a bad as English (in my experience) in employing forms of language that have extra meanings to confuse the unwary to say nothing of the regional dialect forms. I find it quite as difficult to fully understand a Geordie as my Parisian friends do a speaker of one of the several Occitan derived regional patois for example to say nothing of the ever evolving modern argots! Country and regional French is often impenetrable, but quite charming and redolent of local history, much in the same way as urban slang.
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I guess my #15 got 'referred' for too much French!
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13. At 10:21pm on 13 May 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
" ...some in the corporate USA, allegedly, feel the need to meddle in EU politics by bank-rolling certain anti EU political parties on this side of the 'pond'."
Please could you tell me where you get this information from?
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Ireland now wants Lisbon? No yesterday, yes today, and tomorrow??? In once, in forever as Brits found out the hard way. Iceland wants in? Ireland suddenly finds itself in economic difficulties. It looks fondly back at the days when it received generous free handouts. Iceland is bankrupt. It also wants a free handout. That's why Eastern Europe joined in large measure, the West Europeans replaced the USSR as their benefactor subsidizing them. Now whom do you suppose will be having their money handed out? For every Euro donated there has to be a donor...or should I say a British taxpayer on the other end. I guess charity doesn't always begin at home. What spineless suckers the British are. Small wonder the American colonists who braved the savage wilderness wanted no part of them. Were they as submissive as Brits are today, America would still be under the thumb of the British Crown. People may instinctively fear the very strong but the also loathe the very weak, especially when they choose to be that way.
Crackhead;
France like every other country, society, culture is extremely complex. It is simplistic to sum it up in one trite phrase, I love it, I hate it. I acknowledge many of the contributions France made to the human race from scientists like Lavoisier and Pasteur, to mathematicians like LaPlace and Fourier, and to aiding in the creation of the United States of America. But I also acknowledge its irrationality in ways those who are not familiar with it do not usually know about...like having three separate Unities in their educational system. Do they still have that? Three entirely different co-existing equal educational systems in parallel with separate administrations, faculties, curricula, all existing at the same time in the same place and which one you are in depends on the first letter of your last name? Can someone explain what that is not insane?
As a foreign visitor, I remained for the time I was there as an observer collecting experiences. I reserved all judgement until later after I returned home when I had time to reflect and sort it all out . And then I watched some more from a distance.
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#19, Boilerplated,
There are far more covert ways of applying Nationalism and Protectionism that overt policies like Sarko tried with Renault and for which he evoked so much 'block' criticism and had to backtrack somewhat. The EU social policies have long been a mess with only partial implementation across the block. As unemployment rises, as it is now, you will see the difficulties that anybody trying to exercise the EU freedom of movement experience. Whether it's language barriers, harmonisation of qualifications, pension rights, social welfare qualification and other things the result is the same, Nationalism and Protectionism is on the rise. Don't forget that the easiest way to enforce protectionism is to erect a language barrier, look at Belgium for instance, without both good French and Dutch you get nowhere, after that just hope that your well earned qualification has been recognised, if not go back home as to get it recognised is a long and costly journey.
As for "funny how the G20 rejected such calls and actually went along with more or less what the EU had decided to do collectivity as a 'block'.". Considering that these are the very same people whose snout in the trough methods caused these problems, it was almost certain they would stick together in order to continue their pillaging of what's left of all our resources. Therefore I can't see this as an endorsement of the EU but rather a reluctance to admit they have made so many errors. An analogy would be where a doctor tells a patient whose medicine is not working to keep taking the medicine even though the doctor knows it can never work for that patient, likewise EU federalism.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The notion of the state is very different among the Europeans and roughly I would have said that the borderline goes along the borderlines of language families that is the Germanic and the Romance languages. The latter group has no confidence in the state, the former consider the state at the counterweight to the market, and has in the last couple of months received unexpected support from the US through the election of Barack Obama.
So far this blog has contributed nothing to my understanding of neither Europe nor the EU, but exactly where I should place the Britons in this pattern is a little uncertain now. In any case: When I see how British parliament members have used the tax payers money I am not surprised that the scepticism towards national parliamentarians is transferred to the European parliament.
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#22
"Please could you tell me where you get this information from?"
From an interview given by the leader of what is now Libitas in an interview were he was asked directly about where funding the his Irish 'No' campaign was coming from - he at no point denied that he was using money sourced from the USA in one way or other.
If someone can point towards proof that either the 'No' campaign or (now) Libitas is not being bank-rolled by pro USA interests (bearing in mind that Declan Ganley is first a international entrepreneur and businessman before being a politico) then I would be genuinely interested.
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#24
"There are far more covert ways of applying Nationalism and Protectionism that overt policies like Sarko tried with Renault and for which he evoked so much 'block' criticism and had to backtrack somewhat."
Care to name any factories that have closed?
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#1 John_from_Hendon. I dont see any sign of conspiracy both in the slogan in question and the speech of Sarkozy. What he had in mind was not Europe (including also Albania, Serbia, Switzerland and Norway). Sarkozy referred to the united Europe, i.e. to the EU.
Needless to say, any national government is free to accept or not any draft act elaborated by the EC. The mere fact that the majority of the member countries signed the Lisbon treaty is in itself a prelude to a new reality when we shall cede (I would use your choice of the words depicting this irreversible process) some power to the institution called European Parliament.
I strongly disapprove the attempt of M.M. to ridicule the French president. Sarko is by all standards a man of the right wing politicians of France. His problems with GB are maybe the result of his ambition to play the partition of the first violin within the EU band. He's wrong of course.
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MarcusAureliusII: "France like every other country, society, culture is extremely complex. It is simplistic to sum it up in one trite phrase, I love it, I hate it."
Do you know the french expression: "C'est l'hôpital qui se fout de la charité!" ? Let me translate: "It's the (public) hospital poking fun at charity !" Meaning, as far as you're concerned,that you are in no position of telling anyone to acknowledge the complexity of this or that, since all you have ever done is criticise and grossly caricature, as all xenophobes do I might had, so please, don't fool yourself, because clearly we're not !
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I want my money back is a safe way to loose influence in the EU. Countries in the first violin group is paying money into the system, are using the Euro as a currency, are part of the Schengen cooperation and are less interested in the so-called opt-outs. This is of course qualifying France as a member of this group.
These countries are also making suggestions on how to improve the cooperation. I dont know about the British record in this field but many of us still remember the stunt the British PM made, when he signed the Lisbon treaty, carefully avoiding the family photo.
GB has chosen the part of the second violin and this blog gives you an idea of why.
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I want my money back, is of course a citation of Margaret Thather but the quotation marks dissappeared in BBC's computer just like a number of other characters, see e.g. #30. Is the computer Anglo-American?
Jørgen Mathiasen
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Well, I think the slogan (which best translation in my mind is "Europe - where there's a will, there's a way" in post 10) has been chosen just like a company choose a slogan to sell potatoes, ie: it is a simple sentence easy to remember. Dont be wrong: nowadays politicians are doing politics like major world companies are doing business, welcome to our "consumer society". Hardly surprising to see such meaningless and useless slogans... exactly as it goes for advertising.
As for Sarkozy, believe me he is not that unpopular in France: yes he is very unpopular amongst "left minded" people. In my mind the problem comes from the fact that there is a kind of omerta attitude in France when you vote for the UMP party (Sarko's party), socialists and communist look at you as "extremist" with "liberal" ideas (houlala!). It is a bit hard to explain it, and maybe to understand it when you have never experienced it, but in the end most of the people who voted, and still support Sarko, are remaining quiet, leaving the streets and medias to all the grumpy people, giving this lamentable image worldwide (this is my feeling). To be fair, only a few socialist people could beat him in the next presidential election: Dominique Strauss Kahn (current IMF managing director) or maybe Bertrand Delanoe (Paris mayor). So in the end I would not be surprised if Sarko is re-elected in 2012 even if it looks like all the French are against him. Finally, all this to say that Brown and Sarko's positions in their countries are not that comparable.
Cracklite,
I am sorry to write this, but I think your posts do not serve your cause. In the end MarcusAureliusII is a funny guy, and what he writes make sense (when of course it does not come to stereotypes and History "approximate"), even if most of the time I disagree too. But it would be good to build an argumentation on why, instead of replying with, always, the same references to Lafayette, or WWII, and stereotypes, or I dont know what. Dont fall in this trap.
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"In the end MarcusAureliusII is a funny guy"
Plait-il ?!(sorry, cannot translate that, way too french)
"and what he writes make sense"
You mean that within his verbal diarrhea of hate, lies tiny bits of truth ? Well maybe, but I'm not going to plunge in the sceptic tank to find out !
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crackhead #30
Definately a clearcut case of Eurosis of the Fliver. I stick to what I said about it being an affliction most intense in French victims. It's interesting that when Europeans, especially French criticize the US for things about it that they don't like which are many and often, those are valid criticisms. When an American criticizes Europe for it myriad and obvious irrationalities, betrayals, idiocies, self contradictions that is xenophobia. This inability to understand or willingness to tolerate the same type of talk from others they freely and glibly practice themselves, often from others as a reaction to what they say, a mirror image, is characteristic of the disease. It is an example of selective reasoning because it draws on the basic premise that Europeans in general and French in particular are always right because they are superior, and non Europeans in general and Americans in particular are always wrong because they are inferior. The problem comes from negative energy being magnified by the jealous outrage, the intense envy for the inescapable reality of America's achievements on the one hand, and European loathing for the American ethic, culture, and societal structure so different from their own that made those achievements possible on the other. America was built in large part on what Europeans threw away as worthless including its ideology and most of all its people. It is this internal contradiction which results in the pain Europeans feel when they look at America. America cannot live up to the version of Utopia they imagine an ideal society should have (a concept of utopia Americans reject) but it is obviously far superior to their own in every meaningful way. That is why they waste whatever energy they have trying to find fault with America, rationalizing to themselves that it not superior instead of learning from it, both from its successes and failures. An example is the ludicrously imbecillic European Constitution, a document so preposterous, you couldn't get away with it in fiction but voila, there it is in all its glorious absurdity. A very sorry and sad to say terminal illness because the irrationality of it leads to actions which are entirely self destructive...such as the political and cultural warf Europe launched against the US together and spontaneously as a continent early in this decade and has now all but lost. It will not be able to re-establish whatever relationship it had with the American people such as it was no matter what governments agree to. The ultimate crime in American culture is betrayal. Benedict Arnold is a far stronger symbol of betrayal in the Amrican mind than Judas. That people to people bridge was not merely burned, it was demolished by Europe in one suicidal act of insanity. No amount of explaining what they did or why they were wrong will convince them, another sympton of Eurosis of the Fliver. Therefore there will be no contrition on their part, no apology.
Crackhead, you seem familiar with France, do they still have three Unities in their educational system? Are there paralells in other systems such as medical care, social security, the military?
I don't understand the problem with the translation. Literallly, Quand means when, veut is a conjugation of vouloir meaning to want or wish, peut is a conjugation of pouvoir meaning to be able. Literally it says when Europe wants, Europe is able but it is also an idiomatic expression meaning where there's a will, there's a way. That's the way it is with language, translations are never precise. Even in the closest languages, there are invariable subtle inflections peculiar to each one which can only be explained with great difficulty in another. I therefore try to use English words that are understandable even to the French :o)
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#31 - Mathiasen
Any practitioner of classical music will tell you that in chamber and orchestral music, the melodic line of the first fiddles is generally only credible with the harmonic support of the seconds. First and second are technical terms, not badges of status. But don't take my word for it, ask the music director in Berlin. He's British, isn't he?
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#35 - MarcusAureliusII
"Literally it says when Europe wants, Europe is able but it is also an idiomatic expression meaning where there's a will, there's a way".
#10 _ threnodio
Europe - where there's a will, there's a way"?
Am I missing something?
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#36 threnodio
Sir Simon Rattle is indeed British and a popular figure in the city of Berlin too. I believe he like other creative people and academics finds borders annoying.
In music - at least much European music - voices go together to create harmony. And disharmony. Which of these applies to the role of UK in the EU? It seems to me that British voters and media are putting some heavy limitations on their representatives. It is not bringing the European orchestra to a halt but rather letting the British voice sound somewhat odd.
I recommend the new article on BBC "EU nations increasingly club together on the global stage", which has a number of significant examples not only on the notion "pooling sovereignty" but also on what the EU parliament is making decisions about.
We all have reasons to vote in June.
Mathiasen, Berlin
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threnodious;
"Am I missing something?"
There isn't enough time left to my life or enough space on the internet to tell you even the half of it.
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Mark, you missed out on two things. EU parliamentary elections have never been about the EU - they have always reflected national political issues. And that's the important thing to plug into on your tour.
But, the really (oh, but really) important thing you missed out on was the Young UMP bus tour. Not only are they handing out free T-shirts and such but condoms as well. The message on the package of the latter offers, on one side "protected sex", on the other "protected you" (under a right-wing European Parliament, that is).
This is what you're missing MAII!
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#38 - Mathiasen
In which case, your #31 can hardly be said to have contributed to the harmony. Dismissing the British as second fiddlers (and yes you did mean that way despite your later protestation), hardly promotes your cause. It is not clear to me whether by GB you mean Gordon Brown or Great Britain. You would however be wise to note that if your measure of whether a country belongs in the first or second fiddles is determined by how much it pays in, your argument backfires horribly.
I also notice that, when you choose to make a comment like "are using the Euro as a currency, are part of the Schengen cooperation and are less interested in the so-called opt-outs", you mysteriously stop signing yourself as 'Danish citizen'. I wonder why.
You see, not all of us are EUsceptic. Some us agree completely that the UK should be at the heart of Europe. Many of us have relocated to mainland Europe and use blogs and other media to rail against the insular and nationalistic phobias of some of our fellow Brits only to see our European friends playing straight into their hands by ranting against 'second fiddle' Britain. In adopting such a position, you are no better than they are. You have settled on your opinion and you are not shifting for anyone.
#39 - MarcusAureliusII
. . . or, I imagine, an adequate vocabulary.
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#39
I'm sorry that the outlook is so short and that you are finding real problems in finding 1KB of space onto which publish that thesis on the EU onto the internet...
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#41 threnodio
I have mentioned a couple of examples as well as criteria in #31, and I don't regard it as dismissing to say Great Britain (GB) is playing second fiddle in the union, but instead as a description of the fact. I am not sure why the country is so reluctant, but I believe it would be better for the UK to play a more central role.
I occasionally sign my messages "Danish citizen". It reflects what I believe will be the future for many Europeans, namely having a citizenship of one member country and living in another.
Be assured that I voted for the Euro and that I don't take a responsibility for the Danish position in the periphery of the union. I find the Danish opt outs are close to absurd. So does a majority in the Danish parliament, but not a majority of Danish voters.
Now you know why a have a feeling of deja vu [déjà vu that is, but the Anglo-American computer can neither digest Danish or French diacritics].
Mathiasen, European with a Danish passport
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That wasn't a real Sarkozy (see picture), it's clearly a cardboard cut-out Sarkozy. You've been had in some bizarre opposition media prank.
But these people are at their most dangerous when ther start using the R-word (with excited encouragement from the uncritical media) ... remember education "reform", welfare "reform"... in the last 30 years it's tended to mean dismantle, privatise and hand the gains to the better-off at the expense of the rest. I'm not sure how one might privatise capitalism (its more bloated creations could certainly do with dismantling), but I can't see Sarko delivering real reform of anything much.
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#43 - Mathiasen
OK - we are on the same side really but I sometimes get sensitive about Brit bashing - especially when I am getting it from both sides of the Atlantic:-)
I would think it is a reasonably safe bet that the computer is Chinese but the software is almost certainly American in origin (there is a way to do it - £¥$ - etc). Having said all that, to have a blog about Europe and to which contributions come from all over and not to install a suitable character set is seriously bad.
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"43. At 8:25pm on 14 May 2009, Mathiasen wrote:
#41 threnodio
I have mentioned a couple of examples as well as criteria in #31, and I don't regard it as dismissing to say Great Britain (GB) is playing second fiddle in the union, but instead as a description of the fact. I am not sure why the country is so reluctant, but I believe it would be better for the UK to play a more central role."
threnodious, do you think that France would allow that? I don't think so. Not unless the UK toed the line. When you play in Strausbourg, you are playing on their turf....by their rules. They have ways.
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Threnodio #41:
I am not sure whether I am, or I am not, in the way between you and fellow Danish blogger Mathiasien. However, I will post you my comment about your #41, where you wrote I also notice that, when you choose to make a comment like "are using the Euro as a currency, are part of the Schengen cooperation and are less interested in the so-called opt-outs", you mysteriously stop signing yourself as 'Danish citizen'. I wonder why. The said comment proves at least two things: 1st you meditate over every single sentence that matters (this is not a compliment); 2nd the discussed topic is logically linked to the mere existence of the EU.
It is only a question of time for us Bulgarians to join the Euro zone and to be invited to enter the Schengen bloc. The trend is irreversible. The profitable advantages are more than evident. The relative lost of a piece of our sovereignty is inevitable. This is how it works for almost all of the member states.
With all my respect, I was the first one to remind the BBC bloggers of the common believe that France is trying to play the part of the first fiddle within the EU band (my blog #29). I am really sorry about that and I deliberately skip the discussion. For the prevailing majority of the EU countries the discussion is useless.
What I noticed, was just un autre son de cloche (fr.) (another ringing of the bell). You wrote on the same post (#41): You see, not all of us are EUsceptic. Some of us agree completely that the UK should be at the heart of Europe. Many of us have relocated to mainland Europe and use blogs and other media to rail against the insular and nationalistic phobias of some of our fellow Brits only to see our European friends playing straight into their hands by ranting against 'second fiddle' Britain. In adopting such a position, you are no better than they are. You have settled on your opinion and you are not shifting for anyone.
Quite right! If you can remember, the British Isles were not shown on David Cernys installation in Brussels, last January. Many people in continental Europe still share the obsolete opinion that all the Brits are too reluctant to accept the new reality of being just another, normal member state of the EU. There are many proofs that contradict this belief, to start from the Euro channel and to finish with the British PMs signature of the Lisbon Treaty.
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jingo horriblis wrote:
"The reason Sarko did not show up for the rally in person is...that he couldn't find the place either. He's as lost in Lyon as he is in Paris. He's a politician looking for a cause. His theory, first you get elected, then you figure out what you stand for. "
Sarko is not lost, and he is not a red. Sarko is the ultimate man for sale, and he is a true professional representative. What he does is go around representing other people, and their interests. Whatever those interests want, he articulates that message to the public, with the showman's flurry that says "This will be FANTASTIC!"
But guys like sarko and Blair have no capacity for deep thought, and they have learned to remain focused on the message the party sponsors deem correct for today. So if sarko sounds a bit red, that is because the party sponsors are feeling a bit red. If sarko falters and seems confused, that is because the party sponsors seem confused.
The weird idea that the perceptions and convictions of individual men, and occasionally women, can have a significant effect on policy when they are so clearly beholden to corporate patrons for their political exposure, is far fetched. Everyone who works for someone else knows that you simply can't say whatever you like, whensoever you like. You simply can't fight with the boss and tell the owners of the firm they are wrong. You'll be sacked.
Sarko is the ultimate representative, and he represents the people who matter in what we call representative democracy.
Sarko is a piss boy, which is why he is dressed in a suit. (suits were originally servants uniforms in the french court. The tie was for mopping up the mess made by the banking and military classes) He will do what he is told, I expect.
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To Threnodio, my previous post #47: To read: ... to start from the Euro tunnel and to finish with... Sorry for the mistake.
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#28, Boilerplated,
"Care to name any factories that have closed?"
Bearing in mind corporate ownership, and where the corporate office is located, you can research for yourself the number of steel related companies in the South of Belgium from Liege to Mons that have been closed (either temporarily or permanently) and it's quite a few, but you could start with cockerill. I can also mention both Renault and VW who have closed Belgium factories over the past years in preference to closing factories in their home countries. Indeed even Thatcher arranged that years back where an Austin Morris facility in Seneffe, Belgium was closed rather than UK facility. Of course it can be claimed to be a purely business decision rather than being politically motivated by protectionism or nationalism but neither can be proved without inside knowledge.
#43, Mathiasen,
You said "I occasionally sign my messages "Danish citizen". It reflects what I believe will be the future for many Europeans, namely having a citizenship of one member country and living in another."
Actually, if you keep your original citizenship rather than changing it to your new country you become increasingly disenfranchised, obviously depending on the country you have to be there between 5 and ten years, unless you are a refugee or asylum seeker, so changing citizenship is not for short term stays. However when you have a different nationality you are excluded from all government and regional elections for instance, only being allowed to vote for EU or municipal elections. More critical though is when you try to renew official documents of your home country, bank or credit accounts etc and discover that because you are non-resident you have various problems e.g. try renewing an UK drivers licence whilst being non-resident.
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davep01#44
You came so close...but you missed it, you didn't quite connect the dots;
"That wasn't a real Sarkozy (see picture), it's clearly a cardboard cut-out Sarkozy. You've been had in some bizarre opposition media prank."
The truth is....there is no real Sarkozy, they are all cardboard cutouts in a sense. Didn't you notice that Sarkozy is more than a caricature of a man than a real human being? He's been invented, a media image. It's all done with technology, electronic wizardry, smoke and mirrors.
The inspiration for Nicolas Sarkozy was someone you probably never heard of, a comedic character in old silent movies called Charlie Chaplin. They deliberately left out the mustasche because it would simply have been too obvious.
The pionneer in this modern technological effort was a computer generated character in the 1980s called Max Headroom. It was the same brilliant invention that led to the creation of President Obama only he's Sarkozy in reverse. Sarkozy is a computer image masquerading as a human being. Obama is a human being masquerading as a computer image. So far as political strategies go, both have been entirely successful at getting votes which is what politics in a democracy is all about. Lincoln said you can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time. That's what we have here. When their policies fail, their creators will simply re-program them, they will be re-invented. That is what Sarkozy's programmers have just done.
It will be interesting to see which stunt can be pulled off for the longer time. BTW, Gordon Brown is a corpse masquerading as a politician. That didn't seem to be quite so successful for very long. It's like pretending an old policeman's telephone box is a time machine. Amusing for the moment but too low budget. Special effects to work if you are going to really pull it of cost a lot of money.
I think if they are still alive in 2012, I'm going to run my dogs for President and Vice President. They will be more than old enough in dog years to qualify.
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#50. Buzet23
A gentleman in the Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs told my wife before we left, we are not aiding citizens in leaving the country, but EU citizens can actually move (almost) freely within the union. However before you can apply for citizenship you have to stay for a number of years in the country and then fulfil a number of conditions. Ask the Dutchmen!
Within not many months I can apply for German citizenship, but there is more to it than just learning a language and fill in a form, like for instance health insurance, tax paying, and pension, to some also the admission for the children to certain educational systems etc. Citizenship opens for a number of questions not only on the advantages but also on the disadvantages of both possibilities.
We lost the right to vote in Denmark the day we left, and therefore I participate in an effort to establish a double citizenship in the Danish legislation. Since Germany already allows for the double citizenship (in some cases), it will make it possible to vote here in Germany.
For the moment the authorities are ahead of the citizens, but if my predictions are correct the citizens will begin to ask for a more smooth migration procedure. The most efficient solution is of course a common social system and common legislation. We will indeed not reach that by tomorrow!
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#52, Mathiasen,
From the experience of a friend who lived in Germany for a few years you will find that Germany is very well organised and your records regarding social payments, pension rights etc,will be correct and efficient as well as being very long winded. Where the current common system falls down is that there are many other EU countries where the same cannot be said, even in lovely old France you have to save and store all your salary slips etc as without them you can have problems establishing your pension rights.
Therefore I agree that the most efficient solution is of course a common social system and common legislation, but unfortunately Nationalism tends to render the current common EU directives (regulations) on Social Welfare a quagmire for those with multiple countries in their career, as many countries just pay lip service to those directives and just enact those parts that suit them.
Good luck with your citizenship application by the way, I was granted Belgian citizenship a year ago and so far the only claimed disadvantage I've hit is being obliged to vote now, but then for me that's not a disadvantage but rather a duty of citizenship.
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#51 - MarcusAureliusII
"The inspiration for Nicolas Sarkozy was someone you probably never heard of, a comedic character in old silent movies called Charlie Chaplin".
Not Sir Charles Chaplin, the British comedy genius?
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Bravo for that lengthy, although rather unconvincing reply, now, as Axel3175 was fair enough to point out, it does contain some truths, yes, there is jealousy from some Europeans, maybe especially from the French, but I'm not all that sure (I never ear my friends or my family members deny the merits of the US, quite the opposite actually), and yes, the US have achieved much in their short existence, but huge misconceptions remain in your post:
"in general and French in particular are always right because they are superior, and non Europeans in general and Americans in particular are always wrong because they are inferior."
I could tell you the exact same thing, but the other way around: "Americans feel superior to everybody and have almost no knowledge of our existence and have absolutely no interest in what we have to say...unless we are ready to follow and acquiesce without asking any question (is Iraq ringing any bell?)", and why is that ? Well all Europeans would agree, and not just the French, it's because Americans are arrogant and feel naturally superior.
I misconception as ridiculous as yours, wouldn't you agree ?
"America cannot live up to the version of Utopia they imagine an ideal society should have (a concept of utopia Americans reject) but it is obviously far superior to their own in every meaningful way."
Are you actually suggesting that the American social security system is superior to the french one ? Should we loosen up our laws on guns (wait you're right, we don't have enough shootouts in schools...) or should we adopt your judicial system, cause last time I checked, the number of innocent men (often poor and colored) waiting for their turn on death row was quite staggering.
No really, you should check your facts, there are quite a number of things that Europeans do way better than you, a simple fact, and no, it is not because they are superior to Americans, it's because no society does it better than any other society in every way, that's just grotesque, such a caricature and off course plain impossible.
Come to think of it, it's so...you !
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yup, the very same threnodious. Now you will never see Nicolas Sarkozy the same way again :-)
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threnodious, now that he's a commie, he could be nicknamed....ready for this?....Sarko Marx, the fifth unofficial Marx brother (sixth if you count Karl.)
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Marcus
Not forgetting the sister, Anya Marx.
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threnodious
Or her other half, git setgo.
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Yet again a liberal pundit seriously underestimating what is at stake with the current crisis. Regulating the economy is absolutely vital, and Polanyi reminded this to us just after World War Two by pointing out how capitalism has always oscillated between the pursuit of freedom and the protection of society. Now it is clear that the last 25 to 30 years have privileged the former at the expense of the latter. And it is equally clear that our societies are on the brink of disintegration. Re-regulating, and bringing more state in the economy, is the most sensible option for those interested in amending - always temporarily - capitalism from its own faults.
It will take a radical upheaval for staunch liberals such as Mardell to realise that this crisis does not confront us with the choice between free markets and protectionism, but rather with that between capitalism and its collapse. Radicalism will wake up both you and all that Economist-minded crew that still thinks it was a problem of management rather than a structural one.
Greetings from one of those radicals that would have preferred the industrialised world to take the path you are suggesting and dig its own grave
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RobRoccu
"Greetings from one of those radicals that would have preferred the industrialised world to take the path you are suggesting and dig its own grave"
It has dug its own grave. When you add up the liabilities it has accrued, at least 55 trillion dollars in CDSs and CMOs that will default and compare it to its assets, it is bankrupt. It's aggregate debts are more than its aggregate net worth. What next, Socialism? Communism? You don't get it any more than the Capitalists do. They say the course America is taking will wreck the economy. But the damage was already done years ago. All that can be decided now is how the pain will be apportioned. Kill off what's left of the private Corporations and there will be no industrial economy left. Most of it has already fled to China already anyway. But hey, when we talk about France, adding insult to injury is their middle name. Just when you think things couldn't get any worse, they invent a way. In any tough situation, they know just the wrong thing to do and then they do it. How long do you think it will be before the general strikes begin? Shut the place down. Show Sarkozy and the Capitalists who is the real boss there. Prove to them they can't get away with it.
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Hold on. :o) And who will be making money to plug the holes later if you will all move into our communist style? Type "money irrelevant since we can't realistically make up enough to ever cover those past expenses?" First mend your holes, dear capitalists, :o) and then you can join socialist world :o)
Which will incur additional expenses, which returns us back to the beginning - someone, somewhere, on the side, but still has to be making money all along. :o)
Is it now a new socialistic cross - to earn noney?
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"noney". by Freud. To continue this thought - then there ought to be a manual written by someone: "How socialists make money". It's set rails how old style corporations make money (that kind of companies who one can't see much any longer :o)
But don't remember anything money + communism in the old books? Marx or anything?
Damn pity Lenin got ill after ruling only 3 years :o) First directions were, as far as I remember: Socialism - this is elictricity- fication of all Russia (in practical terms, cables stretched across and bulbs.)
Then - that is is education of all Russia.
At that the theory development stopped. We all missed the didn't live enough to "toiletization" of all Russia (sewage networks) and "waterification" - still missing water pipes laid, 60% go to the well, in 2009.
Modern trends seem to be "socialism - it's gasification of all Russia" :o) gas pipes being stretched not only abroad but to own villages. A bit. For ab 30% it is still cut wood and fire-places.
But def. money was never the - "-ication" approach so far. :o)
Second -
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And, may be, there is no Jew no Hellenic er? person, Neither Jew nor Greek (as said once Paul :o)
I mean may be they are right those people who say there is no more socialism nor capitalism but only how to say "Life eteeernal" (sorry that's from another opera). Only - information society these days?
:o) where reputation is - everything!
(this reminds me need to go scare JR a little bit more, in the other thread. :o)
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Web Alice
"gas pipes being stretched not only abroad but to own villages. A bit. For ab 30% it is still cut wood and fire-places."
Yes but for those who are lucky enough to have gas, you can't ever shut the heat off. Russia has so much gas they can afford to heat their apartments with it...even in July :o)
America has a magic money making machine. It's called a printing press. Only America could not keep up with the demand using paper and ink. They'd have had to build a plant that stretched from the mint in Washington DC to the mint in Denver Colorado to do it that way. Instead, America's gone high tech. It prints money with computers. Nothing up its sleeves, no paper, no ink, no plates, just electrons. Just a few strokes on a computer keyboard and voila, instant money. Add as many zeros as you need and get as much new money you want. You think I'm kidding. This is no joke, no fantasy, this is how it really happens. The problem is of course that the more money there is in circulation for a given amount of wealth, the less each dollar is worth in terms of what it can buy so if you double the money, each dollar is worth only 50 cents and prices double. So what is the point then if prices only go up. Well one price does not go up and that is old debt...like the trillion dollars the US government owes China in US Treasury bonds. China will get paid back every last dime...with dollars worth 20 or 25 cents each. That's how the debt will be paid off and the economy returned to functional. It's already happening, just not fast enough yet. (This is the way it has always happened in the past since the great depression in the 1930s, just not on this scale before.) The US government economists ie. Geitner and President Obama are under the illusion that they will be able to destroy this newly minted money before it causes serious inflation. They are wrong. When they try, they will find out that at the first hint of it, the recession will come roaring back to life. So that's it, all prices will quadruple and the debt will be written off, paid back with very cheap dollars. The big losers besides China will be the banks who loaned the money in the first place. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.
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A plan not worse than any others :o) Well, at least you've got a plan, will keep to it, will be predictable and all. Will you?!
:o)
In a matter of 5 minutes Wolf has proved full economical non-efficiency and absence of competitiveness of the grass-eating forms of life!
:o(
The damn crisis has crawled up to me as well.
Cheese I eat - with the mould; wine that I drink is outdated old, and even the car that I drive - is without a roof... :o(
On seeing the rehearsal of the victory parade on TV Saakashvili nervously chewed up the end of the tie, got scared, phoned NATO and with the words "tanks are rolling swear by Mum" officially announced the coup in preparation from the side of Moscow.
:o(((
Demjaniuk, son of two Ukrainians, born in Kiev, in the West was labelled "a Russian nazi". Finally! Thus they've recognised that Ukraine is part of Russia and Ukrainians are Russians as well.
- When will you return us the islands? asked Japanese Putin.
- "When the cray-fish will whistle on the mountain top".
- In which mountain? - livened up Japanese.
- In Fudziuama.
Happy Japanese set up an expedition to Fudzi in order to deliver there a cray-fish. In a while the expedition sent back a radiogramme: "Cray-fish got frozen out and, likely, will un-likely be whistling."
:o(
Estonia demanded from Russia a compensation for that colossal damage that was caused to it by Russian Marxism-Leninism.
In it turn Russia demanded from Germany, Britain and France compensation for that colossal damage that was inflicted to our country by the German philosophy, English political economy and French utopical socialism!
- Why did they heave rockets through the square?
- To show to the whole world our military might.
- Why then the rockets were made of veneer?
- And what for to scare people? We are a peaceful country.
Why Abramovich divorced his wife?
- Because at all parties all other women are in Armani coats and Swarowski crystals.
And she is poorly - in Siberain sables and Jakut diamonds. :o)))
In the American research centre of dolphin intellect they put down into the water microphones, to record what dolphins say.
One dolphin whispers to the other: Say them something, in Russian.
Figure how they'll start running around :o))))
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Cracklite wrote: "I could tell you the exact same thing, but the other way around: "Americans feel superior to everybody and have almost no knowledge of our existence and have absolutely no interest in what we have to say...unless we are ready to follow and acquiesce without asking any question (is Iraq ringing any bell?)", and why is that ?"
Plenty of countries refused to participate in Iraq and maintained good relations with America. You see, there is a difference between refusing to participate and actively trying to prevent allies from doing what they set out to do. Referring to the American government at the time as Nazis, as the highest German government official did, during the war is not likely to bring a warm response, and rightly so.
And if Americans have almost no knowledge of you and no interest in you then how can they feel superior to you? Makes no sense. Many European attitudes today towards America is like when a teenager is being ignored by a parent that then complains about being ignored but when the parent gives attention then they don't like it.
"Well all Europeans would agree, and not just the French, it's because Americans are arrogant and feel naturally superior.
I misconception as ridiculous as yours, wouldn't you agree?"
But the fact of the matter is so many Europeans do have this bizarre attitude where they are always trying to prove how superior they are to Americans. If America engages in a particular project or research then predictably here comes some EU sponsored version of the same thing that promises to be better. It is embarrassing. Europeans, the EU and other similar Euro centric organizations today are acting like the Soviets did during the Cold War. The American attitude is merely to succeed and produce something meaningful. Where they celebrate and admire all success trough hard work and perseverance a typical European attitude, at least as it pertains to America, is to undermine and belittle the success of others to make themselves feel superior. It's pathetic.
"Are you actually suggesting that the American social security system is superior to the french one ? Should we loosen up our laws on guns (wait you're right, we don't have enough shootouts in schools...) or should we adopt your judicial system, cause last time I checked, the number of innocent men (often poor and colored) waiting for their turn on death row was quite staggering."
Our system isn't perfect and neither is France's. In America thousands don't die from a heatwave because doctors and families leave their seniors to die in a heatwave. Remember that?
As for the right of Americans to own guns, they have had that right since the country was formed and had much less violent crime in times past. What you see with violent crime is the failed and weak policies of the left in fighting crime. That, and in my opinion, the heavy use of anti-depressants that are well known to make people suicidal, violent and homicidal.
And because a certain group of society commits more crime than other groups doesn't mean that there is a racist issue, as you are disgustingly suggesting. There is no logic in that.
"No really, you should check your facts, there are quite a number of things that Europeans do way better than you, a simple fact, and no, it is not because they are superior to Americans, it's because no society does it better than any other society in every way, that's just grotesque, such a caricature and off course plain impossible.
Come to think of it, it's so...you !"
And many Europeans, I'm sure, will continue to remind Americans about all the things they do better while Americans will simply go on with their lives upsetting Europeans even more. :)
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#67 newsclolllock2
Sorry to be in the way.
Your wording: *And if Americans have almost no knowledge of you and no interest in you then how can they feel superior to you? Makes no sense. Many European attitudes today towards America is like when a teenager is being ignored by a parent that then complains about being ignored but when the parent gives attention then they don't like it*.
I agree with the first part of it. It makes no sense to feel superior without sufficient knowledge of us, European people.
Can you support the second part of it with good examples from real life; i.e. without referring to any formal government or, other, say, other official sources?
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ironfranco wrote: "I agree with the first part of it. It makes no sense to feel superior without sufficient knowledge of us, European people.
Can you support the second part of it with good examples from real life; i.e. without referring to any formal government or, other, say, other official sources?"
Isn't it obvious? America is complained at for not giving European countries their supposed due attention but when America extends obvious attention and participation it is often accused of interfering or imposing its will. Many Europeans, and their governments, simply have a very dysfunctional relationship with America based on the one hand an inferiority complex and on the other hand a superiority complex in which both are typically expressed as petty, belittling and hostile anti-Americanism that is often so cruel and vulgar that it would not be tolerated if directed at any other culture.
As for Americans feeling superior, it has to be said that for many Europeans when Americans are merely celebrating and encouraging personal or national success they see it as an arrogant display of American superiority and take offense at that. That is a big mistake that reflects on their dysfunctional relationship because Americans, much more so than Europeans, simply see it as celebrating success and achievement and nothing more. One doesn't need knowledge, acknowledgment or participation of other people and cultures to do that, and one certainly shouldn't be offended by that.
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#69 newscrolllock2
By your wording you try to give us your vision of how the historic relationship between Europeans and Americans looks like.
I certainly disagree with your way of interpreting all those evident facts which feature the Americans behaviour while being on a trip in multinational Europe or while commenting our living standards or democratic & cultural achievements. I certainly disagree with many Europeans who still see Uncle Sam just as a riding and smiling chap who seems to be well-intentioned until the moment he faces some resistance he would quickly eliminate by a pair of Smith & Wesson guns.
Our discussion promises to be very interesting and very long, provided you have enough patience to follow, and provided I have enough time to make myself clear. (I am an ordinary employee working 8 hours a day, and my English is not at all flawless).
If you agree to start the dialogue, just write go on.
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newscrollock2, @67 "if America engages in a particular project then predictably here comes some EU sponsored version of the same ... like the Soviets did during the Cold War."
True ab us (ex-Soviets), but then you wouldn't blame us exactly in hiding our intentions, as minimum. LOL, it was advertised in huge posters on all corners "Let's catch up with the USA". When we compete we openly say "At you!"
Some planks to jump up to you set high, and catching up was unavoidable for survival, I mean the bomb. Other ideas were of course simply funny and petty-cash, like "catching up" US records in corn production, and that's in Northern Russia where no pop-corn no nothing never exists in nature as such :o))))
In fact apart from the bomb and the pop-corn I don't remember any other clear targets set to the USSR population. ?
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I think we would gladly compete in showing off how well USSR treats own Afro-Russians, except the sheer lack of those didn't allow for any meaningful competition :o)))))
USSR ony had 1. Poet Pushkin, who we couldn't possibly treat any better, even to annoy you. As he took care to die before USSR was created, and to be sure - a century in advance . :o)))))
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