The awkward relationship
STRASBOURG
This pretty city of half-timber houses and sweeping canals is in lockdown, awaiting the arrival of the presidential guest and the presidential host.
The occasion is the 60th birthday party for Nato and there have already been scuffles between protesters and police. President Sarkozy will have his first tete-a-tete - bilateral, as they're called in the trade - with the new American president.
Smiles will be broad and arms will doubtless wrap around backs - but how will they really get on, and what does it say about the state of the relationships between these two great republics ?
The French president was ridiculed during his election as "Sarkozy the American", and it wasn't meant as a compliment. His decision to take France back into the full Nato structure is, on the whole, backed by public opinion, but there are severe critics on the left and within his own party.
It was, after all, President de Gaulle who marched France out of Nato because he saw it as little more than an American tool. I suspect that the strength of his insistence on new financial rules and regulations was partly because of a domestic perception that he is a fan of American-style capitalism.
The relationship between France and America is complex - at least on one side. When the United States snarls at France it seems to me to have its roots in De Gaulle's militant lack of gratitude for the USA's role in liberating France. That understandable reaction to this extraordinary statesman's personal and national arrogance has echoed down the years, with more or less arrogance, through the Cold War and the invasion of Iraq.
But French "anti-Americanism" is more complex. There is fear of culture-swamping, from food to films. There is a dislike of American foreign policy, which to me doesn't seem the same as being opposed to a state or its people. There is a huge difference in the attitude towards the state: an academic was telling me the other day that Tocqueville wrote that if a wheel came off a wagon and barrels spilled over the road, in France people would wait for the police, in America they would roll up their sleeves and clear up.
But, as anyone who has encountered American form-filling bureaucracy, or the delightfully relaxed French attitude to a multitude of rules, this risks being a parody.
There is admiration: French companies at the top of the tree are every bit as dynamic and capitalist as those in the States. But at the root is the envy that drove de Gaulle: it was France, certainly not the old colonial master Britain, that gave the United States its political model, its republican ideals, its taste for liberty and revolution. The idealistic desire to export that revolution and that freedom, and watching that turn into conquest and colonialism, is not a uniquely French experience.
Perhaps the feeling is akin to an elder brother who has grown up with the expectation of heading the family but finds his younger sibling is richer and more powerful. He consoles himself that his rival is vulgar and has distorted the family mission.
There's no doubt most French prefer Obama's brand of idealism to Bush's but they both look to lead and change the world. President Sarkozy will be forced to look up, literally, to his much taller guest. But will he say "It should have been me"?
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© 2012~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~34~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
"But French 'anti-Americanism' is more complex." You're right. On the one hand, the US is regarded by many French as having won the second world war single-handed (they're so full of praise for the US, so off-hand about the UK contribution). On the other hand, they present the US a the cradle of raw capitalism - and there's quite a bit of not-so-quiet smirking going on right now, given the current state of affairs in the US.
So far as NATO is concerned, French troops were not withdrawn from NATO activity; it was only involvement in strategic and operational control. That's what the Socialists and others can't/won't recognise.
NB you only have to look at all the French-based names of cities, towns, etc in the US (not to mention their "prairies") to recognise their French heritage. The French either sold their land in the US to the English, or lost it in battles with them. Just the folks to run NATO?
Complain about this comment
I think it is curious that germany and france are taking a cold line towards "anglo saxon" standards in economic matters. I note that Medvedev has secured an audience with Obama in July, something that then sets the background to US-euro negotiations in the coming days. And the brits provided the access to ruskis, bypassing the rest of Europe diplomatically, which confirms their usefulness in the modern international context, from Americas' point of view.
So it is no wonder that Sarko fantastic and Commissar Merkel feel marginalized. They sort of are marginalized. I think the world can see that the EU has some fairly pressing internal issues to resolve, and is not much of a force on the world stage. European fortunes go up and down with global demand, but europe does not exert a significant influence on the control of global resources.
Complain about this comment
NOT A BAD ARTICLE. I WOULD , HOWEVER, DISAGREE THAT FRANCE GAVE AMERICA ITS REPUBLICAN IDEALS AND TASTE FOR LIBERTY AND REVOLUTION. THE AMERICAN WAR OF INDEPENDENCE CAME BEFORE THE FRENCH REVOLUTION. THE AMERICANS MORE LIKELY GOT THEIR IDEAS FROM THE ENGLISH REVOLUTION 100+ YEARS BEFORE! THE FRENCH MAY HAVE GOT THEIR REVOLUTIONARY IDEAD FROM THE BRITISH AND AMERICANS.STUDY YOUR HISTORY BEFORE MAKING SUCH PRONOUNCEMENTS.
Complain about this comment
The picture of the two leaders at the head of this blog illustrates perfectly the current Obama/Sarkozy
relationship. No need for Zarkozy to flash his molars in a wide Obama look-alike All American smile.
Zarkozy's more restrained smile shows the quiet satisfaction of a player who knows that he has trumped his rival's ace.
Complain about this comment
democracythreat @2
On a larger scale of ? events? world affairs? economics?
- it's not Britain that has to join up morally with Europe and abandon the USA.
Somehow they can't, it's a fact, and have to be simply excused or neglected I don't mean anything offencive.
USA has to join up with Europe. Morally, or economically, or somehow - they ought. Britain will just then fall into shape.
Otherwise we are simple all buried, Russia included. And it is by now LOL more or less clear who will bury us.
As Mavrelius wrote in the other thread - "who in US congress seriously gives a damn about what them in Europe leaders do or plan". Damn pity, because they'd better. By this idiocy USA puts at risk all.
That Medvedev will succeed to get some allied deals or shared views with Obama in June, bi-laterial USA-Russia I don't doubt. The other agenda - to make USA more European, is LOL, a much more troublesome and questionable issue. But someone ought to work on it.
If this Western-Russian-transatlantic- European whatever won't get common values and routes - we'll be all goners.
The only question is when this understanding will finally down on the EU-American side. Just before the disaster when you still can step back from the abyss, or a minute before this - so to say when the dead body will finally become very mentally healthy and could be effectively out into the coffin in its absolute finally healthy beauty and enlightened brains.
Complain about this comment
I'm tired of hearing from Americans (and Brits) about French ingratitude for 1944. Let's remember that if Washington had had is way, liberated France would have been saddled with the reactionary Giraud or even the collaborationist Darlan rather than by our ally de Gaulle, the man who risked his life to fight alongside us and who more than any turned his country from an economic laggard into a prosperous modern economy (it's still up there, for all the doom-mongers' dire assessments). Yet for all that France is festooned with US and British flags whenever it's time to recall the Liberation. It's we who show contempt for our past allies by only saluting them when they happen to agree with us. Americans need to learn that other countries aren't there as adjuncts to US policy.
Complain about this comment
Seems to me (7th generation descendant of French immigrants to America) that the French aren't just anti-American but anti-non-French. Do they like ANYONE else? I can understand why they want to protect their national intellect from American (US-ian) television--look what it's done to us. But as the article suggests, their chip-on-the-shoulder mentality towards foreign influences looks like the badge of insecurity rather than pride.
Complain about this comment
Certainly De Gaulle was an occasionally petulant and stubborn (some would say pig-headed) man. But just for the record, his antipathy to the US did not grow out of nowhere. For years during the war the US refused to acknowledge his government-in-exile, preferring instead to deal with Maréchal Pétain's Vichy regime as the legitimate French government. And as pointed out by davep01, he had to fight hard after the war to get a freely elected French government as opposed to a Washington-imposed Iraqi-style "transitional authority". So it's maybe not surprising that he felt he could not fully trust the US.
Histofile, I believe Mark was referring to the writings of Voltaire, Rousseau and Montesquieu (among others), which heavily influenced the US Constitution, e.g., on the separation of powers.
Complain about this comment
re 8 La Fayette,
I specifically didn't mention the constitution or the political model.
I would also add that for Voltaire, Rousseau etc you could substitute Tom Paine and before him, the Rainsborough and the Levellers.
Complain about this comment
7. juliuschas wrote: "... their chip-on-the-shoulder mentality towards foreign influences looks like the badge of insecurity rather than pride."
I accept that the French authorities have done more than most to preserve the country's language, TV, cinema or music against "Anglo-Saxon" competition, and I have to admit I like the results apart from the hideous dubbing. But there's no shortage of rap & hoodies among the young who don't (maybe till they get older!) feel attached to "la francitude" in quite the same way.
But when it comes to a chip-on-the-shoulder mentality suggesting insecurity rather than pride, have you taken a good look at the average Brit lately? We're not a pretty sight, believe me. I see pride in France, often at the local level where people respect what they have. I see none of that here where our collective accomplishments are more likely to be an embarrassment to us. And while we've a tradition of incorporating foreign elements (as indeed have the French over the long run), we've very much a double standard in recent decades when it comes to anglophone (ie US) vs European.
Just for the record, the French were charming to me, and to Brits I knew. I've never encountered any arrogance or animosity there (Paris doesn't count, just like London or any other faceless metropolis - I'm sure the locals get the same icy treatment!). That's not to say France is perfect (the effects of racism - mostly barely conscious - are all too visible) just that they're folks, and no worse than the UK.
Complain about this comment
When it comes to economics and military strength France is behind the US. When it comes to culture, language, food, art, fashion, intellectual life and many other things like for instance the social security system the USA reach France approximately to the level of the ankles. That's among the reasons why the relation is so complex.
Mathiasen, Berlin
Complain about this comment
Mr Mardell,
An article about French-American relations that touches on the subject of French "anti-americanism" and French perceptions of the US, should also touch on the gross misperceptions Americans have of France and on American "anti-Frenchism". I remember watching Jay Leno in the summer of 2002 right before the opening day of that year's FIFA World Cup; Jay Leno had cracked a joke about the French team "never winning". Not surprisingly, he got plenty of laughts from a studio audience ignorant of the fact that France was actually the returning champion, having won the '98 World Cup (let alone the Euro2000). American misperceptions -and outright hatred- of France stem partly from a gross ignorance of the country; many Americans believe that the daily lives of French people revolve around how much they hate Americans when in fact -as you correctly noted- distrust of a foreign government and its foreign policy does NOT equate to hatred of a state and its people. And indeed, if we're looking for anti-americanism, France is one of the world's (and Europe's) milder countries, even if we don't include the predominantly Muslim nations. The American worldview relies on exaggerated [and sometimes completely baseless] caricatures of Europeans; most Americans are ignorant of the fact that France is a major sports power and technology hub, preferring instead to view the country as a quaint and "romantic" theme park with perfumes, shopping, snooty resaturants, and snooty people. Equally annoying [and underserved] caricatures exist of the Germans, Italians, and Brits. I find it very interesting that you attribute the "uneasiness" of French-American relations to the similarities between the two countries. I have always thought that American dislike of the French was attributable to the American [gross] misperception that France has more in common with America, than with Italy, Germany, or Spain. The Italians, for example, are "ethnic" (so anything they say and do is forgiveable), while the French are *not*. But I can go on forever about Americans' distorted wordlview.
Histofile,
As an alumnus of the American public school system, I remember learning that much of America's constitional framwork, such as the "Separation of Powers" principle, was influenced by the French Enlightenment writers, exactly as La Fayette noted. Yes, the French Revolution came after the American Revolution, but both were heavily influenced by French Enlightenment thinkers who were discontent with the French monarchy. American *law* however (which is not necessarily the same as the constitution and government framework) is indeed very Anglo-Saxon. French law is very Roman.
Complain about this comment
Re 12 skye_eg
That was why I specifically did not mention the constitution or political model. See post 9
Complain about this comment
"It was France, certainly not the old colonial master Britain, that gave the United States its political model, its republican ideals, its taste for liberty and revolution."
Er, you got that completely the wrong way round. And the British colonists in America who revolted against Britain were certainly far more influenced by the ideas of their fellow Britons John Locke and Tom Paine than by any French thinker.
Complain about this comment
Mark: An interesting comparison of the two cultures can be found in the book French and Americans: The Other Shore by Pascal Baudry.
frenchderek: Many French placenames in the eastern USA can probably be traced to French officers and soldiers in the American revolution.
Complain about this comment
#3 - HISTOFILE
I think you would be well advised to follow your own advice and to 'study your history'. La_Fayette at 8 is quite right to cite Voltaire, Rousseau and Montesquieu (among others). The pragmatic French approach was that they were quite happy to export the revolutionary message - anything to disrupt the British ascendancy. The Bourbons simply did not want it in their own back yard. You for your part mention Tom Paine. Paine was closely associated with the French school of thought and indeed went to France during the early part of their revolution.
I have always found it faintly ironic that, for once the French did get exactly what they wanted. The British relinquished control of the North Atlantic and lost the War of Independence. Just a few years later, the French brains were being separated from their bodies for their trouble, British ascendancy was restored and Payne's revolutionary preachings were mainstream UK thinking half a century later.
Complain about this comment
Histofile, clankylad, I quote from the Wikipedia article on Montesquieu:
"Political scientist Donald Lutz found that Montesquieu was the most frequently quoted authority on government and politics in colonial pre-revolutionary British America.[1] Following the American secession, Montesquieu's work remained a powerful influence on many of the American Founders, most notably James Madison of Virginia, the "Father of the Constitution." Montesquieu's philosophy that "government should be set up so that no man need be afraid of another" reminded Madison and others that a free and stable foundation for their new national government required a clearly defined and balanced separation of powers."
And whether or not that is what you were alluding to, Mark was certainly referring to the political model of the US (i.e., a republic with separated powers)
Complain about this comment
Jan_Keeskop #15 Whilst your argument is partially right, you should look more closely at French colonialist spread before they sold/lost territory to England (as it then was).
Sky_eg #12. Maybe the reason so many non-Europeans misunderstand the countries of Europe is that they only visit the capital cities? And even then they are shepherded around by guides? We've had many visitors chez nous in rural France who return home with a view of "the French" quite the opposite of the received view in their own country. They mix with our (French) friends, neighbors, etc and find, for example, that not all are so anti-US or anti-UK. I found more anti-French attitudes in Germany, though, when mixing with folk there on a daily basis.
Complain about this comment
#17 - La_Fayette
The American system is, in fact, a hybrid. The constitutional model (executive presidency, separation of powers and so on) you can trace directly back to the French encylopedists. The judicial model, on the other hand (presumption of innocence, trial by jury, confrontational procedure) is Anglo-Saxon (before anyone gets picky - yes I know, not in Louisianna).
Interesting though that this has led to a strange anomaly. The old French idea of a gentleman being entitled to bear arms comes up against the 'all men are born equal' thinking. So either everyone can bear arms or no one can. The gun law debate arises directly from this.
Complain about this comment
"THE AMERICANS MORE LIKELY GOT THEIR IDEAS FROM THE ENGLISH REVOLUTION 100+ YEARS BEFORE!"
Any knowledgeable American scholar would agree that the influence of the great french thinkers of "Les Lumières" influenced much of the content of the American declaration of independence, and guess what, much of the ideas that led to the British revolution, it's really a well accepted and documented fact, so please check your facts before speaking.
Complain about this comment
"the French aren't just anti-American but anti-non-French. Do they like ANYONE else? "
Name an country other than France which has both an English film, an American and a Spanish film festival (yes, three festival to honour foreign films, now who does that ?) ?! Please, enlighten me!
Complain about this comment
'Name an country other than France which has both an English film, an American and a Spanish film festival (yes, three festival to honour foreign films, now who does that ?) ?! Please, enlighten me!'
Oh well that absolute seals it then - the French are as open, cosmopolitan and likeable as they come! (Course you didnt mention that performed works in France are still quotered - may explain the film festivals - cos people wot em - in accordance with the quota of course)
Complain about this comment
"the French aren't just anti-American but anti-non-French. Do they like ANYONE else? "
Cracklite, I think it is useless to reply to such nonsense. The people who write and believe this kind of assessmen are just ignorant. Do they only know that, for example, 1/3d of the French have at least one grand parent born in a foreign country? Obviously not. So of course the French are open minded. Actually they believe everything is better elsewhere than in their own country (even if it is not justify). So if you listen to the French, they love Spain, Italy, Germany etc, and they EVEN LOVE THE US... French are not "anti-american", they are "anti-american-policy", which is fairly different. And I will tell you what, it would even be closer to the reality to say that "anglo saxons" do not like what is non anglo saxon. Why am I writing that? Because whereas in France people listen to English music, American music, Spanish music, Italian music, German music, Arab music and of course French music... (the same applies with movies), "anglo saxons" mainly listen to "anglo saxon" music, "anglo saxon" movies etc. No comment.
Complain about this comment
To JackKilms,
I fear what you wrote is nonsense.
You are talking about quotas in France. Ok, there is ONLY ONE that concerns French music on the radio. If I remember well, radio should play at least 40% of songs in French language. But, just to make this clear, this law has been placed by the government, no the French. And do you want? 15 years ago, when this was placed, even the French people thought that was completely stupid. See? No to have a more optimistic view, if you take this law in the opposite way, that means 60% of the music played in France is not French. Not bad, dont you think? Can we make the same statement with the US and the UK? Obviously not, far from that. So in the end, are you still convinced about what you wrote? I am not, so to me it is more than obvious you are just judging without having a single clue at all.
Complain about this comment
The American and French governments have a powerful history: some of the greatest American leaders relied heavily on the French, not the least of which was Thomas Jefferson. It should also not be forgotten that the French aid was a deciding factor in America's victory in the Revolution against Britain. But regardless of the past, now we have two countries whose governments disagree. It would be a mistake to assume that Americans are happy with their foreign policy: many aren't. Most Americans were ecstatic when Obama became president, because he brought hope for a new foreign policy, and everyone wanted what he promised: change. For two democracies, it is funny to see that two governments by the people do not often get along, when the people seem to be able to. Let's hope the people figure out how to get along, and as for the consequences of foreign policies and government scuffles, only time will tell.
Complain about this comment
Just a small interjection about those mentioning how many place names in the USA are French, these were mostly from the explorations of Fur trappers (voyagers) from Québec. After the colinization of Quebec by france a separtae culture developed and evolved, not that different from what the british american cultural drift. France itself was really not to do much with the explorations of these North Americans.
As for revolutions and the dream of a republic, it was going on at the same time with many exchanges between anti royalists in France (Lafayette and Franklin) one did not lead the other.
Complain about this comment
Mr. Mardell you make wonderful points. But some of what you say regarding the roots of French Anti-Americanism can be said of many nations, but France gives the clearest examples. Every nation likes to view themselves as their own champion. De Gualle could never forgive the U.S. for turning him and his nation into damsels in distress. France has adapted a nation wide fairy tale regarding de Gualle and the French resistance as fact because the truth is more humiliating.
This is not unique to France, It seems the more a nation is in debt to the U.S., the more common Anti-Americanism is. Witness Germany or South Korea.
Another element is the natural tendency toward bigotry. Anti-Americanism is acceptable the way that racism isn't. A bigot will says a minority group is stupid to make himself feel smart. Bigotry is a easy way to make oneself feel superior. Anti-Americanism is nothing more than socially acceptable bigotry.
All this is a shame because although I didn't like Chirac or the knee jerk Anti-Americanism that passed for much of French foreign policy untill Sarkozy, in truth I never met a French man I didn't like.
Complain about this comment
Can we be careful to avoid national chauvinism in a discussion of political and historical heritage? All cultures have their richness--and their weaknesses--and likely, as some have posted, various literary, philosophical, and political influences informed the social & political development of these republics.
It's true that the French Revolution closely followed the American Revolutionary War in time, but there are important differences. Without being nationalistic, one can find that whereas the American revolt resulted in a democratic republic in some ways strongly tied to political values and systems of ancient Greece (such as the Senate), the initial outcome of the French uprising saw the Terror and the invention of the guillotine for more efficient execution of the royalty and aristocracy. One commentator has even remarked that it more closely resembled the Bolshevik Revolution than the American one.
Of course, today the French Fifth Republic is a model one in many ways. Although France is suffering from the global economic crisis, its fiscal conservatism spared it from some of the worst losses. As an anecdotal observer, though, I do see what has become a cultural mindset of dependence on the state. Of course, with some of the highest personal taxes in the world levied on its citizens, maybe those citizens have a just sense of entitlement to government resources.
And of course, France has its colonial past, and its relations with those and other African nations today are complicated. I find in France today an interesting mix of cultural conservatism and remarkable sensitivity to the plight of developing nations.
One of the qualities I find most appealing among the French people I have come to know is what I can only name "reasonableness." I find them quite willing to discuss and debate, and to consider ideas other than their own, although naturally all peoples have their cultural "prejudices," often without being aware of them. This is true of every culture in the world, whether in Europe, North America, Asia, or elsewhere. In many respects we are creatures of our context, and our views, however developed, are colored by our early influences. These predispositions in thinking must be perceived by ourselves first, then by those we communicate with, and dealt with in diplomacy and in joint efforts. It takes two to tango, and more to dance in a circle.
Another cultural marker that I deeply appreciate in France is the love of beauty, of excellence, of every kind of art (including cuisine), of articulate expression . . . in short, of aptness. The attention given, even devoted, to finer details as well as to taking time for personal relationship brings a certain joy in experiencing life.
Well, these are somewhat random thoughts. If any historians among you find fault with my observations, I stand to be corrected. :-)
Complain about this comment
Yes,I think that French anti-americanism is indeed very complex.
And President Sarkozy is an incarnation of this so-called complexity : his threat of walking out of the G20 summit was only a way of challenging what the French call the Anglo-Saxon world. HE COULDN'T have left this historic meeting simply because President B. Obama was coming to Strasbourg. And President Sarkozy wanted the NATO return of France to be a stunning success -his own party being divided on the matter.
Now let's try and explain French anti-americanism.
1- The French feel deep down that their long standing rival-sometimes enemy-is the UK. Both the UK and the US have always had a "soul relationship" and both countries have constantly shown an impossibility of adopting a friendly attitude to communism.
2- France, on the contrary, has always turned a blind eye to the communist atrocities especially when committed under Stalin and Mao. We, The French, have always wanted to show our "egalitarian minds". Hence the difficult changes of decision-making of our President who both want to please the marxist workers and the bankers. All French people are against tax havens, whatever the meaning of the expression! -we- have never completed our revolutions, exactly like the Russians. The American Revolution was a war of independence for economic reasons. The French Revolution(s)built up over centuries of unjust dictatorial regimes.
And our present Republic still bears the ABSOLUTE mark of the monarchs of the previous centuries. Every morning we hear about the wish of the President - or the decrees decided by his team.
4-Last but not least, French "attitudes" during the second World War diminished France's moral values in the western world. Luckily Britain with Churchill, helped the French to be a world power which counted in the UN security council. But France unconsciously recognizes that it didn't deserve such a generous treatment.
Complain about this comment
#28. I think another difference between the American and French revolution is that the Americans had the luxury of being isolated, meaning they developed their democracy without any outside threats. The French on the other had to deal with the Declaration of Pillnitz, which certainly didn't help the French revolution.
Complain about this comment
A wonderful debate.
I have made a few experiences with both Americans and Frenchmen in the last ten years. Like Americans Frenchmen only seldom speak other languages than their mother tongue. Which is neither anti-Americanism nor hostile against the Frenchmen. It is a fact.
What is anti-Americanism? The answer you get from stay-at-home Americans when you mention all the concrete things in American culture and politics you don't approve. They have in other words never discovered the difference between the two levels.
Mathiasen, Danish citizen, Berlin
Complain about this comment
Mr. Mardell you make wonderful points. But some of what you say regarding the roots of French Anti-Americanism can be said of many nations, but France gives the clearest examples. Every nation likes to view themselves as their own champion. De Gualle could never forgive the U.S. for turning him and his nation into damsels in distress. France has adapted a nation wide fairy tale regarding de Gualle and the French resistance as fact because the truth is more humiliating.
This is not unique to France, It seems the more a nation is in debt to the U.S., the more common Anti-Americanism is. Witness Germany or South Korea.
Another element is the natural tendency toward bigotry. Anti-Americanism is acceptable the way that racism isn't. A bigot will says a minority group is stupid to make himself feel smart. Bigotry is a easy way to make oneself feel superior. Anti-Americanism is socially acceptable bigotry.
Complain about this comment
Before the attack on Pearl Harbour the US had "Jim Crow" apartheid, a quota on the number of Jews admitted to medical school, and laws that made it illegal to teach the theory of evolution. The US refused entry to the Jewish passengers of the St Louis, who had paid their own way out of the Holocaust. And Chinese and Japanese both were a "yellow peril", who had to be exterminated to save a nation "under God".
Most passengers of the St Louis ended up in France. France had a Jewish prime minister then, and he had no problem with either Josephine Baker or Ho Chi Minh voting in French elections. Or with universities teaching Freud's theory that Moses adopted the religion of Akenaten.
When Poland was attacked, only the Commonwealth and France declared war on Germany. Not the US. France was unfortunate enough to not have either a natural tank obstacle like the UK, or a domestic supply of petroleum. Germany had Romanian oil.
When the US can defeat "insurgents" in "Indochina" without a reliable supply of petroleum, or by dropping a nuclear bomb on their innocent families, then maybe it can criticise the French attitude to it's stupid, ignorant, and hypocritical assumption of "moral superiority" in it's war OF "terror".
Complain about this comment
Your comments about "De Gaulle's militant lack of gratitude for the USA's role in liberating France" and "this extraordinary statesman's personal and national arrogance" show a failure to meet the BBC's oft-proclaimed standards of objectivity, as well as a lack of knowledge about the General himself. A few facts:
1.On a visit to France, it was pointed out to me that the graves of American, British and (former) British Empire soldiers are beautifully kept, commemorated and maintained _ by the French, and have been, ever
since De Gaulle took power after the Liberation. (I assume you don't claim that this was against the General's wish ?) Often, the relatives of those in the graves were too poor and far away to travel very often, or to look after the graves themselves. My informant commented acidly that graves of (British) war dead in the UK are often neglected and vandalised _ sometimes with swastikas. By the way _ my informant was English.
2.In 1940, the Reynaud government, riddled with defeatists, cynically picked on De Gaulle (because he was one of the few commanders with a victory to his credit against the invading Germans) to deliver impossible demands for reinforcements to London, in order to justify their surrender when the British, with Hitler at the door, would have to refuse. De Gaulle loyally performed the poisoned errand and duly listened to the British refusal; then he looked Churchill in the eye and said "Monsieur Prime Minister _ I think you are right" (to keep all forces for Britain's defence). From that moment, Churchill _ who, by the way, was himself beleagured with defeatist voices urging armistice _ knew two things: that there was one French military-political figure who would never, never parley with Hitler, and that this man would even sacrifice today's defence of his beloved France to keep Britain in the war for tomorrow's victory. No doubt you prefer to cherish Churchillian cracks such as his "Cross of Lorraine" comment _ but ask yourself why, despite their prickly relationship, Churchill never repudiated the General _ despite constant pressure to do so from the USA, who _ by the way _ kept diplomatic relations with the pro-German Vichy French government for much of the war.
3.Much of the venom against the General, from certain Anglo-American commentators, focusses on his "talking up" the role of French troops in liberating France, and seeming to ignore the US-British role. Again, this is misplaced, and fails to consider the circumstances at the time. France (like most of mainland Europe) under Nazi occupation was not a pretty place, and it did not suddenly become so five minutes after the Germans left. When the General returned to France, he walked into a cauldron of murderous division, tangled loyalties, and hellish corruptions and betrayals _ a powder-keg just waiting to explode in civil war. Ex-Vichyists, Communist and non-Communist Resistance groups _ all armed, all poised to fight for power. His solution was to unite the people around an agreed self-image of France liberated by "les francais" _ he knew this to be blatantly untrue, but what choice did he have ? The US and UK weren't the only ones whose feathers he ruffled _ the Resistance were bitter that the General seemed to dismiss them without reward for their sacrifices: but De Gaulle knew how easily groups well-trained in subversion could become a menace to post-war democracy.
In short _ sitting at the comfort and safety of your computer in 2009, you have the luxury of being able to criticise and judge the General. BUT IN A WORLD OF COLLAPSE AND CHAOS, HE WAS TRYING TO SAVE _ AND BUILD _ A STATE.
Complain about this comment
I have been mystified by this phrase anti-Americanism ever since it surfaced. How can anyone in their right mind take a multicultural, multiracial nation of 300 million odd souls and brand them with the same iron? It comes from the same blind prejudice that characterises the anti- French posts that have been apparent on earlier threads and the blanket condemnation of all things European with which MAII routinely bores us. It is rubbish. It is the kind of narrow minded unfocused claptrap which, in another age, led to the final solution.
Regulars will be pleased to learn that I will not be around this evening. I am going to spend the evening with American and British friends listening to a multi-national cast performing Italian music on a Chinese theme in a Hungarian venue.
The days when your ridiculous prejudices had any relevance in the real world are long over. Grow up will you?
Complain about this comment
I have enjoyed the comments on this blog thoroughly. I speak as a person of mixed European descent, living in the northern part of Louisiana (USA), the state with Napoleonic laws, where in the southern part of my state there is the culture of Cajun French. I live in the Anglo-Saxon part of the state in Bossier City (next to Shreveport, a city where the majority of citizens are African-American) and surrounded by small towns with native American names. Four doors down my neighbors are first generation Mexican immigrants, some of whom speak only a few words of English. I attended college (and frequently see) women in head scarfs, of Islamic preference. And on and on. Everywhere, I see people proud of their heritage, land of origin, religion, political leanings, sexual orientation - on and on again. I would say, in general, most of the people I know have no anti-French bias - that, like people all over the world we are mainly concerned about our children and jobs and we are just too tired from all that running around daily life requires to actively hate anybody. I would say, in general, that most of us wish we had the money to visit France, or Egypt, or just about anyplace. Usually we settle for Canada or Mexico (and maybe even Cuba soon!) - much closer and therefore cheaper. There is a lure of cultures that are (now mythic, perhaps always mythic) unified in some way - an unbroken culture. "The" French, "The" Kenyans, etc. But "The" Americans? We are everybody. We have every opinion. Sure, you hear what elected leaders say - but what do we say in our cities and towns? Liberal California votes against legalizing gay marriage. Conservative Iowa is going to allow gay marriage.
Most Americans, in the best of economies, cannot afford to travel the world. I have to cruise the world on my rather low-speed 29 (US dollars) a month internet connection - oh, this includes the modem rental, on my refurbished computer. The French. Well, I like them, those I've met. I cannot recall ever meeting a citizen from a foreign country that repelled me in some way related to their national identity. How very silly.
Complain about this comment
Hi aLL,
I am French, I do not hate Americans, my family and friends either.
You have to understand that in France we have a much bigger problem that all of your problems together.
Our immigration level is terribly high, the Anti Americanism growing in France is not from the French but from other people coming from elsewhere or born here but without our culture.
For you to understand a little bit better, here is a BBC video of today,watch the flag while they brake the windows..is it a french flag?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7982821.stm
Guys,we are in a massive crisis in France,not just economicaly but a crisis with our root and identity.
I can promise you that the real french do not hate the americans.
As an example, we have 90 000 Americans people living in France, the Americans and ENglish cimeteries are extremely well kept,anyone messing with the graves will get big troubles and go behind the bars.
We buy american products all the time, microsoft, xbox360, films,tv,anything....
We are not looking for the USA tags on our product, this is just a big joke.
You must understand that the people marching against America in the street of France do not have our culture!Please believe me! Or their are from the left wing brain washed by those corrupted people.
I would not have come to this forum to explain this if I WAS NOT HURT so much by this belief of Anti Americanism.
Our president is Pro American, we have elected him,why would you think we are against Americans?????NOWAY!
Chirac and his gourvermenet were anti American but this does not mean all the French were,does it?If we have now moved tot he opposite direction and go with a new pro American gouvernement this well means that we wee not happy with the previous people gouverning our country.
do not believe what you see or hear, the guys against you in our own country have nothing to do with us!
Remember 2 years ago,France was under fire everywhere, the police could not control anything,it went out of hand.
All we do in France,is eating, drinking and have fun with our comrades, go in south of France, some villages do not speak french anymore but English, so many british have moved there that you feel like being in UK,it is funny, do we give a damn about it>? no, we are happy because we have roughtly the same culture,uk and France both drinks like horses when they spend a night in the bar together!!!
Have a good day!
BamBam,
BamBAM
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
DouglasRoman,
With respect to South Korea, the country was under US-backed dictatorships until 1987. If there's "anti-americanism" in South Korea, it's because people remember the Gwangju Massacre in 1980 against pro-democracy demonstrators. The US media was all over the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests in China (of course), but very few Americans are aware of what went down in South Korea in the spring of 1980, where people were fired at for demonstrating against a Washington-backed regime. Most Americans unfortunately buy into the "good-vs-evil" paradigm where America always supports the "good guy", because that's the reductionist narrative that's promoted in American public discourse and mess media. The least that we Americans can do is admit that we often fought fire with fire during the Cold War (let alone that many of Washington's policies were self-serving geopolitical ventures under the guise of "containing communism"); refusing to acknowledge that we've ever done wrong, is not only childish and counterfactual, but it's also a major contributor to global anti-americanism.
Complain about this comment
#36 - pennyyak
I think I must have gone to a football match instead - well someone sang Nessun Dorma anyway. We went on to join Israeli and Georgian company. Not an unpleasant word was exchanged. When I return to the computer, I find words of wisdom from pennyyak. Long may you prosper. You know it vrellyy is not hard to get on with other people if only you can rid yourself of prejudice.
Complain about this comment
threnodio, and I hoped it was Cio-Cio San. :o)
an excellent, instructive, how to say, highly recommended for wider audiences story.
why wouldn't we sponsor it worldwide need to recommend Medvedev. with a view of universal peace-making and understanding enhancement, of course. :o)
Complain about this comment
I don't expect to hear much about ecology in this blog, but I guarantee everybody: it comes. Sooner or later people will hear about two basic most ecological principles of handling foods in the Mediterranean area not least France: Eat the food of the season and eat what is produced in your own area.
The sooner we all - and this does indeed include the Americans - adopt these principles the better for the water supply in the world and the world ecology in general.
Mathiasen, Berlin
Complain about this comment
#41 - WebAliceinwonderland
Now you mention it, I was very impressed with Medvedev at the London summit. He did everything right - no grandstanding, no sales pitches, no showing off, very dignified, complete respect for protocol but all carried off with good humour. Are we sure he is Vladimir's puppy? He struck me as very much his own man.
Complain about this comment
Thanks, threnodio. Always nice to know when we have something normal.
With puppy-unpuppy. there was a talk on Echo of Moscow think-tank, that Putin like a dinosaur blocks him the way. Well, they didn't say "to him", simply - "to the new generation of Russian politicians".
Surely others reasoned at once that "not blocks but shields from troubles, and takes the fire re hard formulated stuff onto himself".
It's in discussion, so to say.
Happens with parents, I'd say. Both shield and block.
Complain about this comment
And strangely, by age, I think they are about the same age.
Putin is simply experienced, he pulled country by ears out of USSR collapse, made worse by Yeltsin free ramble field collapse.
Anyone who does this with Russia - becomes experienced, no doubt.
Behind Medvedev - nil, therefore the attitude locally. Respect and gratitude lie with Putin. What will Medvedev achieve is yet to be seen.
We are all awful "state-ists" here, which notion is not your "governmentalists". Take the most fierce local Putin's critics - their own motto is the same - "Let Russia great-i-fy, Let our names perish." Pushkin, "our everything". With this angle in national mind-fold, you know. Provided the concept of "Russia" exists - what happens to its subjects is total nevermind, LOL.
Surely Dmitry Medvedev is his own man. But how many strings to tsardom lie in his hand. Three, four? Putin doesn't hold all.
Our plague is the state workers apparatus/machine, Egyptian hierarchy of rows, piercing the whole fabrics of the society, holding lots of power, very deeply rooted, you won't carve out one from his hole without a fight. This system won't surrender. Both Putin and Medvedev are radical liberalalists! compared to this machine.
Have you seen, one sample, our State Duma? Jesus Christ.
Each there made it to the Duma by concentration of all strings and resources :o), no one will surrender a chair. They will die in their chairs, won't stand up even at the point of a gun.
United Russia party baby?
Government structures? Thousands employed in it.
oj oj oj.
FSB and army are ultra-right democrats, compared to these!
BTW a funny thing noticed here, the new world structure invented at G-2- to manage the crisis somehow is called "Finance Control Board" sounds FSB in Russian, as we have only one letter C/S same sound "s".
So all wonder why it's called FSB our KGB, "just imagine how the foreigners got enchanted with the name" :o)
Total plague we are hi-jacked.
Complain about this comment
HISTOFILE and Comment 3.
Apart from the dreadful use of capital letters I agreed with everything you wrote about which nations' Revolutionary ideas provided the stimulus for the Revolutions that followed.
Strange remarks by Mr Mardell who is usually more accurate.
Complain about this comment
Mark:
Yes, it looks like an awkward relationship... But, over time these two leaders will get along....
~Dennis Junior
Complain about this comment
As a francophile Spaniard, I like French culture, admire what France has provided to the world and enjoy travelling in this beautiful country. I prefer European films than the Hollywood ones; or the European welfare system than the free-marlketist American way of life.
Nothing of the heterogeneous points mentionned above is Antiamericanism. But I am afraid some people take such preferences as samples of being against the USA.
Complain about this comment
bambinouFR and Comment 37.
Certainly seems that France has an especially large immigrant community who do not relate to the indigenous culture. However, in my experience over the last decade this problem of a poorly educated/financially poor and predominantly non-Judao-Christian underclass also applies in Britain, Denmark, Germany and Netherlands.
Have to be careful not to brand/stereotype entire communities as many are hardworking and eager to make progress in their adoptive lands: Nevertheless, there appears to be increasingly large numbers of radicalised younger elements linked to the usual 'west' rent-a-mobs.
Undoubtedly, some of the problems/issues these anti-US/UK/France/western ideals groups face are down to the nations' inadequate political-social support programmes and initiatives whilst placing them among often suspicious, unwelcoming indigenous peoples.
It is also clear that the generally liberal, pro-Human Rights leadership of the 'west' lost sight of the reality on the ground of allowing mass immigration to occur without really explaining or preparing their own Citizens for the effects.
Thus we have the scenes you refer to France, the Danish Cartoons riots, the Dutch murders, UK Citizens threatening beheading to other Citizens etc., neo-nazis and their ilk all scrabbling for attention. Then there is the sight of the 'west' Political leadership turning around wringing their hands and unsure what to do for the best!
Most UK Citizens are very much as you describe the French and I have found the same basic decency and love of life in Germany, Belgium, Poland and Scandinavia: Some of that 'joy' has rubbed off on the newer communities. However, in view of their more recent experiences of genuine hardships they are understandably slower at catching on to the western liberated lifestyle and with that many also carry inbuilt images and feelings of antipathy about the USA which of course any sensible longterm European could not agree with.
Viva France! Viva USA! Viva UK! Viva l'Europ! And, Viva LE DIFFERENCE!
Complain about this comment
Re La Fayette 17 and Cracklite 20
I would refer you to Kevin P. Phillips' book 'The Cousins Wars', brought out last year. A review says he considers the English Civil War, The American Revolutionary War and even the American Civil War as an evolutionary sequence of events, each an outgrowth of its predecessor, during which the English - speaking peoples' religious and political ideals that set them apart from the rest of Europe.....
Complain about this comment
Oh what a great photo that is. Here's the caption;
Obama looks like a little boy, a child pleading; "But..."
And Sarkozy interruping him saying; "I know, I know. Don't worry. France will take care of it. France knows what is best for everyone in the world including America. Just go back home, do as I tell you to and everything will be all right."
What a disgusting worm America just elected. They should call this trip, Obama's first snivel abroad. He is a humiliating embarrassment to us all.
Complain about this comment
I am in favour of an enventual accession of Turkey in the EU. But I think this US insistence in the Turkish membership doesn't help the cause. It can be taken as a way of the US meddling again in European affairs. For me, Obama's pledge for Turkish membership is the worst chapter of his European trip. Sarkozy has won this battle.
Complain about this comment
MA @51,
:o)
"President Obama suggested that Turkey joins the EU.
President Sarcozy suggested that Turkey joins the USA."
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS