Picking out pirates
The confrontation between some of the world's biggest navies and the Somali pirates reminds me of one of those "Walking with Dinosaurs"-type reconstructions of web-footed little mammals darting and diving between the ponderous bulk of leviathans. Still, it doesn't make sense to me.
What the pirates must be bemoaning is the lack of any bureaucratic structure to guide their activities. And some initials. After all, they face the might of the US, Nato and of course our own EU. These are only the first initials. The EU force is called EU NAVFOR, Nato's operation is called Standing Nato Maritime Group 2 (SNMG2) and America's is CTF 151, which is also a multi-national force which, as far as I can discover, means there are some Canadian ships involved.
Ever since the EU developed its own military operations there have been worries about duplication with Nato. The US no longer seems to share these concerns and most military types are sanguine, so most of the objections come from those who are opposed to the EU. Fair enough, but how does having three task forces with their own chain of command contribute to such an operation? But that is not what puzzles me.
Most explanations of the difficulties faced by the world's navies focus on finding what the US defence secretary has called "untrained teenagers with heavy weapons" in such a huge area. But in the admittedly smaller border region of Pakistan there seems no problem at all picking out individual suspects and sending a missile their way. Presumably a combination of space satellites and spotter drones are used. Any idea why this is not possible off the African coast?
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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The boats swerve fast and are sometimes near innocent targets.
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"But in the admittedly smaller border region of Pakistan there seems no problem at all picking out individual suspects and sending a missile their way. Presumably a combination of space satellites and spotter drones are used. Any idea why this is not possible off the African coast?"
Too much space, and the pirates don't fly a skull and crossbones. And how many of those missiles in Pakistan actually hit the right target anyway? Remember they said they'd got Bin Laden once, but they'd just picked on a tall guy dressed in white? The Americans would probably end up sinking a supertanker.
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Mark,
"Any idea why this is not possible off the African coast?"
Maybe because killing fishermen is not too good an idea?
Your point about duplicate command structure is well made - I ask however where is the African regional task force - what is the African Union doing about trouble on their own continent?
Why hasn't the AU bothered about Somalia's people? Indeed it is possible to ask what is the point of the AU? They have "African Union Mission to Somalia" but what has it achieved? Looks like just encouraging the piracy 'industry' from here!
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No doubt by the time the various command structures have consulted the various government ministers and approval has been given after much hand wringing and evasion of responsibility, the pirates would have long gone or taken the ship. Add to that the frailty of the UN resolution and the Navies are in a no win situation with their hands tied.
If the EU (Nato) is serious then an aircraft carrier(s) (if we still have any) need to be placed there with standing orders to attack any craft that threatens a ship. The planes could be there in minutes rather than the hours it takes for a warship. Even attack helicopters could work but they must be given licence to attack without recourse to our dithering politicians.
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I think its necessary to go back to the old, well proven solutions from before the times of "political correctness" and "human rights" for the criminal:
1. Bring in compulsory armed convoys in these busy waters
2. Bring in ruthless and immediate armed intervention, treating the pirates as they once used to be (hanging from the yardarm was the Royal Navy's standard solution in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries)
3. charge the shipowers much higher insurance premiums or even refuse insurance cover if they do not arm themselves or refuse to sail under convoy protection
4. bombard the pirate strongholds which currently are perfectly safe havens (standard policy for all navies in the 18th and 19th centuries, eg Tripolis and Algiers were both bombarded on several occasions by the Americans, French and British)
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In my opinion, to sort out the piracy, the International commuunity should go to the root of the problem.
It is unbelievable nowadays that an enormous country such Somalia is a failed state with no government, control or whatsoever of its own territory and waters.
Tha African Union and the Arab League (Somalia is an Arab country, isn't it?) with the concurrence of other world organisations should take a decisive role in stabilising the country, not only to prevent piracy, but to combat violence and famine amongst the civil population.
In this case, like in Afghanistan, I don't think NATO has to be the only international body nor the main one to assume responsibility. Otherwise, it can be seen as a neo-colonialist policy and hence rejected by the affected people.
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betuli - Somalia is an arab country? Not last time I read anything about it.
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calcination,
Yes, it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League
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Rgarding the rescue of Captain Phillips.
Capt Phillips said "the real heroes are the SEALs". Now, what is heroic about shooting someone with a sniper rifle from the safety of a US warship?
How about this? The SEALs swam underwater to the lifeboat surfaced in the doorway and then engaged the pirates? That could be termed "heroic" because there'd be an element of risk as to where the pirates were looking and pointing their weapons as the SEALs surfaced.
Of course the official story is that, "The on-scene commander thought that the captain was in imminent danger". So, with one of their number negotiating on board a US warship, another of the pirates aimed a weapon at their only bargaining counter and took care to stand in front of a window as he did so thus presenting himself as a target. His colleagues likewise and co-operatively also positioned themselves in front of other windows. (how many windows are there on a lifeboat?) Snipers on board the warship were then able to kill all three pirates with single shots to the head.
Which scenario is more likely?
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@greypolyglot:
the most likely scenario is that you're whining regarding the comment of capt Phillips.
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Best way to stop these attacks might be to figure out how it was done last time, at least in the western hemisphere. How was piracy in the Caribbean ended?
How was it ended in the Med?
In both cases part of the solution was denying the pirates their bases and hideouts. The RN made it impossibly hard for pirates to operate in the Caribbean, and in the case of the Barbary Pirates the French took over their pityful states. Might be that the coast of Somalia is in need of some harsh colonisation again after all.
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I really am curious to understand how anyone could see what was happening inside this lifeboat.
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=70532
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It is clear so far that the commander-in-chief of the most powerful Navy in the world, maybe the most powerful navy that ever existed, not to mention the most powerful air force and Army does not have the poltical will to solve the problem. His subordination of American shipping interests to the hypocricy of "international law" and other irrelevant obstacles which preclude him from taking effective action proves he is unfit for his job. If he can't face down a handful of Somali pirates who threaten American shipping, how will he face down threats to the entire American nation like Iran and North Korea. Hillary Clinton was right when she said during the Presidental Campaign last year that Barack Obama is not fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed Forces. And he is proving it every day now. Meanwhile, as his willing subordinate, she has proven she is unfit to be even Secretary of State. How can someone so unprincipled accept such a position? Simple, her lack of personal ethics is only exceeded by her own personal political ambitions.
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" #10. BernardVC:
the most likely scenario is that you're whining regarding the comment of capt Phillips."
Not at all. Far from it. But why dissemble, if they did?
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I hope the Italian navy will follow the French and US example and engage these thugs with the COMSUBIN or whichever force they want. Also, bomb the ports. A couple of MOABs will do.
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Piracy is aggravated endemic in desperate nation .I think the best is to recruit local Somalia coastal residents young men as an international force led by Egyptian officers, deployed along the Somalia coast ,in 20 years program coinciding upgrading economy, agriculture , their generations through mentoring ,educating ,skills training and more programs organized by international NGOs ,funded by those interested governments –USA, Jap,UK .perks to tribe leaders. Costs are less than military reaction(logic of mind or sword's logic) Aziz Sarhan
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Wow, MAII, this is indeed a red letter day, I agree with you and your comment in #12 about 'His subordination of American shipping interests to the hypocrisy of "international law" and other irrelevant obstacles which preclude him from taking effective action'. This subordination is strangling every government in the so called democratic world, with it's Human Rights etc legislation ensuring that every criminal, rogue state etc are given rights they have not earned rather than be treated as the aggressor they are. Rights must come with Responsibility and not be automatic, these pirates do not deserve rights and have not earned rights, they are plunderers of the high seas and need to be regarded as such. It is time that useless talking shop the UN gave a 'no holds barred' resolution for this pirate problem and should any country object they must be exposed and ignored.
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Over 2 hours and there was no comment from Marcus Aurelius. I was getting worried. Was he ill? Or had he perhaps finally found a job?
Sadly he persists with his monologue whining about the powers-that-be. No constructive comments, no suggested solutions: Mr. Mardell's blog is MA's soapbox from which he declaims all he surveys.
I am interested to know MA's proposal. What, I wonder, would he wish his President do? Maybe he would like to see a full-scale invasion of Somalia? It may have happened a few years before his majority, but MA would do well to consider what happened when troops from his country landed in Somalia in the early 90's.
It is curious that he criticises Obama for subordinating American shipping interests to international law. Strange; isn't this the same MA who criticised Bush for subordinating international law to American interests when invading Iraq? It makes his hypocritical accusation of Hillary Clinton's "double-standards" all the more amusing. :-)
P.s. Karolina001, we are missing you today. Have you not yet found a reason to blame Somali piracy on the evil machinations of the EU? :-D
P.P.S. MA, do not be offended. Please don't stop your diatribes, they almost always make me chuckle.
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Aziz Sarhan's is the first comment on this blog to think about the problem. Somalia is a desperate nation, without a functioning government for many years. A recent BBC interview with Somali pirates revealed that some of them turned to piracy as a way of protecting their waters. With the exception of some recent high-profile cases, most targets are foreign fishing vessels who were fishing in Somali waters, in defiance of International law. With no government to protect them, what should these young men do? Ask the foreign fishermen politely to leave?
It would be nice to a solution which solves the problem, not the symptoms.
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Buzet23:
Imagine you woke up one night to find your house being burgled. You could phone the police. But what if the police did not come? Maybe you could try to stop the burglars yourself, but what if they are stronger than you? Your possessions are stolen. There is no court that will help you. Local law has failed you.
A week later, the same thing happens again: the police do not come and you are unable to defend yourself. More of your possessions are stolen. Local law has failed you again.
If you know the police and the law will not protect you, sooner or later you will either move home or you will find a way to defend yourself.
For the Somalis, this is what has happened. But it is not their house, it is their country. Their waters were invaded, their fish stolen. How will the fishermen feed their families? Many have indeed moved home: visit Cardiff and see how many Somalis live in that one city! Some have chosen to stay and to defend themselves. Most ships they attack are fishing boats which have no right under International law to be there.
Now this piracy becomes a lucrative business: no merchant vessel is safe. And I agree, this is wrong. But maybe if countries had upheld international law in the first place, instead of abandoning Somalia to its fate, this piracy problem would not have arisen in the first place/
Ask not what International law can do for you, but what you can do for International law. ;-)
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Mr Mardel wrote:
"But in the admittedly smaller border region of Pakistan there seems no problem at all picking out individual suspects and sending a missile their way. Presumably a combination of space satellites and spotter drones are used. Any idea why this is not possible off the African coast?"
We have strayed from Europe considerably here, but let me venture that the error in this thinking is in the analyses that suggests "there seems to no problem at all.." in assassinating folks in foreign states without declaring war.
I would make two points. The first is that whether assassination by drone (a delightful new phrase for the 21 century) seems problematic rather depends on which end of the drone you sit. It is certainly problematic to fire the drone. I gather software is much like a video game. You line up the pixels with a joystick, and press delete. However, if you are being droned, the problems multiply rapidly in comparison. You have problems contacting your lawyer, and preparing your defense case. You have problems if your children are nearby, perhaps in the same room as you. You have problems because you thought you lived under the rule of law, but it turns out that your fate is being decided by employees of a foreign military intelligence unit.
Now the second point I would make is that, to my perception of current realities, we have a MASSIVE problem in pakistan right now, exactly because we are going around destroying the rule of law in that nation by zonking folks with drones. I don't know which part you are looking at, but Pakistan is turning bad as far as I can see. Really bad. Failed state with nukes kind of bad. So the claim that there "seems to be no problem" doesn't hold for me. I think we have a very large problem that could get larger as a result of the drone missions. We are advocating terrorism of the terrorists, rather than the rule of law. What we advocate, we must expect people to follow. Leadership by example is a universal phenomena, not a benefit one may pick and choose when it suits.
I have never understood the difference between bombing a house where "suspected" criminals might be, and bombing a bank. Both acts are performed beyond the rule of law, both admit there will likely be innocent casualties, and both acts are condoned as strategically "necessary". In fact, both acts are EASY. And SAFE. Military men who want to kill, but who are frightened of engaging with an enemy that can shoot back, enjoy bombing targets from safety because they can kill without courage.
On the EU, I think it is pretty clear that the pro - EU camp is using the whole pirate hoo hah as a causa belli for the creation of an EU military force. Oh great.
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#19, tomislav20,
No matter what trespassing has been going on in their territorial fishing waters they have no right to attack International merchant ships, the fish are not owned by anybody as they often change location, but the waters are. If their ineffective government does not protect their own territorial waters then that is down to the people to change the government. The UN, EU Nato, Russia, China etc have no mandate to intervene in inter country problems unless asked or so mandated by the UN.
Whether they mostly attack foreign fishing boats is not relevant as they have and are attacking a large number of merchant ships, that is inexcusable piracy on the high seas i.e. they are not in Somalian territorial waters.
Finally allowing some Somalian citizens to migrate to Cardiff is not a solution and highly regrettable for a number of reasons. The problems are merely spread, it is time the 'unions' in the area like the AU become more responsible rather than talking shops for overinflated ego's.
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"..explanations of the difficulties faced by the world's navies..".
as you say, the effective "..combination of space satellites and spotter drones..", plus nuclear submarines, long range bombers and missiles, make surface vessels almost redundant.
they (EU, Nato, America, et al) are keen to play with with their "ponderous ... leviathans" because, one hopes, it may well be the last time they get to use them for 'real'.
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5 mikewarsaw wrote:
"I think its necessary to go back to the old, well proven solutions from before the times of "political correctness" and "human rights" for the criminal"
Hmmmm. So the answer to behaviour that offends our modern way of life is to regress to harsher times.
Now I strongly support the actions of the US navy to free the captain, but but you Mike are indulging in the worst sort of knee-jerk reaction.
Should we regress to C18th methods for other crimes as well, or just bomb the foreign ports where a pirate may live.
As Simon21 said on Justin Webb's blog, these pirates do not fly the jolly roger and have a parrot on their shoulder. Or is it guilt by association for all coastal Somalis? By the same token if you lived next door to Fred the Shred should we come and break your windows?
Anyway, I'll answer you points one by one
"1. Bring in compulsory armed convoys in these busy waters"
paid for by whom?
"2. Bring in ruthless and immediate armed intervention, treating the pirates as they once used to be (hanging from the yardarm was the Royal Navy's standard solution in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries)"
Yeah, that'll show them. Of course, they may just kill their hostages first. Or will you simply search every fishing boat on the 2000 mile coastline abnd hang anyone with a gun?
"3. charge the shipowers much higher insurance premiums or even refuse insurance cover if they do not arm themselves or refuse to sail under convoy protection"
We're in a recession, if you haven't noticed. Where do these extra costs go?
"4. bombard the pirate strongholds which currently are perfectly safe havens"
See above. Not much fun if you're living next door to the pirate king.
Seriously though, why not follow the money to see who is really running the show, because it sure isn't a bunch of illiterate fishermen.
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Marcus: this piracy issue existing while Bush was still at the helm. This isn't a recent phenomenon. Granted, only recently has a US ship been attacked but I think Obama made the right move. As the article stated the US is already participating in a joint effort. What more should Obama have done? Bomb the port? Begin targeted assasinations against the pirate leaders? All of the above? (I agree that more aggressive action is necessary but I am not so quick to blame Obama. While I would like to see these pirates killed there are enough other concerned parties involved so that we don't need to dictate terms and do everything ourselves).
The number of ships actually taken versus the ones making it through is fairly small. These pirates are like flies biting your bum. They are a nuisance to be sure but we need to keep things in perspective.
On a side note, I would be interested to see the Russian or Chinese reaction to a stand off similar to what the US/French have faced.
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#12. Billious Maximus wrote:
"His/her usual rant full of hatred".
Billious please do to see your doctor (if you can afford one) and get something for your ulcer! Most countries, that consider themselves developed, have developed a medical system that every citizen can use when they need to, regardless of means - when will your country do so! Big armed forces - yet your own people are reduced to using medical charities! And you think you are civilised - more like a failed state! You want to run the World but you can't even provide basic healthcare to your own citizens! Superpower my foot!
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Perhaps the navies of Greece, Panama and other flags of convenience countries can resolve this as the ships involved are generally theirs.
Considering virtually none of these ships are UK registered and none of the people at risk are British why should we be bothered?
Perhaps if the ship owners are worried they could always re register their ships and pay taxes in the USA or UK?
Somehow I don't see them doing this.
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The idea that europe might confine itself to the law when dealing with problems in other continental regions seems exceedingly remote. I put it down to the influence of the USA on foreign policy.
Now the french and the ruskis have managed to capture and process pirates according to the international law of the sea. There seems to be no problem doing this. I have not heard that the russians regret taking the opportunity to interview members of the piracy community and gather intelligence on the issue.
Now the Americans have made a massive show out of shooting some of these folks first, asking questions later. The rational seems to be "that will show them". But it is entirely unlikely that this was the only course of action open to the US navy. I don't see why Peter the Great was able to intercept and arrest pirates where the US navy cannot.
The foreign policy apparatus of the USA is in a dangerous ideological zone, one where they believe they make the law with their actions. They see themselves as the global sheriff, but the sheriff who makes the law in a lawless world. As a result, they do not conceive of an existing framework of international law that binds the sheriff. They do not conceive the possibility that they break the existing law, simply because they cannot be punished by a higher forceful authority.
But this ideology, where the actions of the sheriff make the law, it can only lead to anarchy and brutal chaos. Indeed, some would say that it already has, and that the CIA created global terrorism by practicing the black art for so long in client states.
If lawful, ordered behaviour is going to start, it has to start with the highest forceful authorities. That means the USA has got to stop shooting folks without due process. It would be helpful if everyone stopped shooting folks without due process, but that isn't going to happen if the USA doesn't set the standard.
This drone zone abomination has got to end. We can't have regions of the world declared no go drone zones, where superpowers operate massive assassination squads and consume vast stockpiles of expensive munitions in an endless war against some hazy concept.
That is where we end up, if politicians are allowed to shoot up folks without going through due process of law. You know, a trial. The presumption of innocence. Representation. All those things we like to have in the drone free zones.
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CarlosSanchezGuerra wrote:
"I agree that more aggressive action is necessary but I am not so quick to blame Obama. While I would like to see these pirates killed there are enough other concerned parties involved so that we don't need to dictate terms and do everything ourselves.
The number of ships actually taken versus the ones making it through is fairly small. These pirates are like flies biting your bum. They are a nuisance to be sure but we need to keep things in perspective. "
I am going to go right out into radical left field and suggest, with humble and unpopular conviction, that some folks in the west don't even want to see these pirates killed.
Myself, I can go without seeing pirates killed. If it were up to me, if god came down and asked me "Democracythreat, should we kill these pirates?", I would probably say "No, that isn't cool. You're the big guy but if you want my opinion, we should sort out our differences without bloodshed."
And who knows what god would then say in that highly unlikely scenario, but the point is that pirates being killed is not where we have to go. Pirates may be bad folks. They may be fishermen under hard times. But killing them should be something that we take seriously. They are human beings.
Now I am going to get shot down by the fearful anti-islamo-fascists for being entirely counter revolutionary and PACIFIST. But the weird thing is, I am not a pacifist. I'm all for a war if the thing is done properly, according to some rules.
But this droning of fisherman pirates without any due process, it isn't part of war. It is butchery for the spectacle of it, as far as I can see.
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Mr Mardell, you go ahead and describe all the Naval activities you want, but, just make sure you don't overstep the mark in your literary efforts.
Quote, "..and of course our own EU.."
The EU is many things and you can write it up as powerfully as you want, but, "ours" it isn't and "ours" it never will be!
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If the loose coalition of "allies" are serious about tackling piracy, someone needs to put an aircraft carrier on exercise in the trouble zone.
Any piratical maydays could be responded to immediately, and aircraft could be in the trouble zone within minutes.
This could make the difference between a successful pirate boarding or not. Also pirates of unsuccessful boardings would not get away: they could be identified and shadowed until a surface vessel can pick them up.
If, as now seems likely, the pirates are now seeking bloody revenge for their own losses, there should be less hesitation in taking their lives in a stand-off, or if they fail to surrender.
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As the news unfolded the saying "offence is the best defence" prooved to be true.Finally someone is talking in the language these guys understand.They lurk around these waters attacking any and every ship and making huge ransom demands which unfortunately are paid 100% of the time because the ship owners dont know what else to do.It has become a major international security issue and it seemed to us reading the news that "oh! well another ship thats the third this week";and left us troubled and wondering; "isnt there something someone can do?"And some fell short of justyfing the piracy saying well there is no government in Somalia and these people have no means to make a living.Ridiculous!!Being poor is not an excuse to capture a ship and hold innocent people hostage.
As far as using satellite technology to hunt these people down its not possible in this scenario .At any given time with so many hostages whos to say that there may not be a couple of hostages in the mother ship itself.As we all know that hostages are good bargining chips.
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#29. ikamaskeip wrote:
"The EU is many things and you can write it up as powerfully as you want, but, "ours" it isn't and "ours" it never will be!"
Where do you want to be then - living with MAII(aka Billious Maximus - in the federation without a health service!) and his/her NRA members and fellow countrypeople?
The EU is 'ours' and it has been since we joined - you have had long enough to get used to it!
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democracythreat@28:
Perhaps I am just a mean guy to suggest killing the pirates. I am open minded to non-lethal methods but not so sure of their efficacy in this situation. This isn't a case of rambunctious kids in sunday school. It seems the French and American governments have decided to up the ante with special forces killing these guys - who, while I do value human life, garner no sympathy from me. And the idea that they may be 'hard up' fishermen does nothing to sway my mind. A fisherman should search for fish, not cargo tankers.
Lastly, I never suggested droning anybody. But I am open minded to that idea so long as necessary safe guards are taken (giving option of surrender, no attacks on land where children could be present, etc).
Adios, Carlos!
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Actually, the pirates should be targeted in their havens on land, and eliminated. Land based locations are not moving, and can be watched over time to ascertain the validity of being a target.
The drones can be used quite effectively on land based targets.
On the seas, the shipping companies themselves, must arm their craft, with weapons that can sink the pirate craft, in a single shot.
Pirates should be dealt with harshly, and eliminated, on the spot. Do not waste time and money with courts or prisons. Piracy should be a capital offense, and subject to terminal response.
We should also realize that the piracy is related to funding the Islamic extremist movement, in Somalia, and we should not permit this Islamic insurgency to succeed, within Somalia, in the first place. Another hot spot of extremist Islam, we do not need, in this world.
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John_from_Hendon and #32.
Well, as I understand it from the BBC, CNN and SkyNews amongst the Naval forces in the area off Somalia/East Africa are Warships from NATO and included in those are ships of Her Majesty's Royal Navy.
Nowhere so far as I can determine are ships of the European Union!? Since when did the EU have a Navy?
As for the font of all american wisdom! It is part of the natural cycle of the creature for its mouth to grow to the full width of its head - - - so, always try to remember (and I admit I occasionally don't, like today) that with so many 'tadpole/pollywog' in that particular gene pool there's bound to be one evolve with a webbed head matching the feet!
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" #35 ikamaskeip:
John_from_Hendon and #32.
Since when did the EU have a Navy?"
Please see
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5309165.ece
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An interesting story in The Times from a Somali pirate's perspective. And a telling comment about a problem that seems to have been solved.
EXTRACT
"His perseverance paid off. After extensive negotiations, a ransom of $1.5million was secured for the ship and its crew. The US military guaranteed Boyah and his team safe passage off the hijacked ship and Puntland's security forces could only watch as US gunships escorted the pirate skiffs to land and allowed them to disembark. ..... Like many Western nations, the Americans wouldn't have known what to do with Boyah and his men if they had captured them."
full story at:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6100783.ece
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greypolyglot and #36.
Actually I knew about the EU Forces and my mistake I meant to write since when was Her Majesty's Royal Navy in those EU forces?
Answer: They are not; and if Brown has let any RN Warships take orders rfom the EU then he has done it without any information for the UK Parliament or Public.
Thus, I stick by my initial comment: the EU isn't and never will be "ours", at least, not if we anti-EU have any say (granted, a 2-timing PM who gets his lackeys dreaming up slanderous ideas about the opposition instead of running the Country is well capable of underhandedly putting the Royal Navy under EU command)!
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democracythreat @20
buzet23 @21
RomeStu @ 23
yes, yes and yes.
_________
Speaking of ? people whose name may start from letter "p". LOL.
(I was referred with this on the other blog today; my second attempt didn't even reflect in the list. So I am switching to Aesop language).
An abstract small human being name is Elizaveta.
A whole abstract northern country is watching her adventures the third day and night in a row, attracted by the story far more than Somali (sample).
The story is old as hills, because it is the -teen case, for the past 10 years, when an abstract northern country loses its abstract small human being - to a more well off abstract entity.
A well known official, whose name starts with "L", has been addressing female abstract human beings in his abstract northern country for years, with warnings.
That one should think of the 100% guaranteed consequances, when you get too friendly with strangers. As the abstract northern country cannot protect your interests when you are in the stranger's territory.
Accordingly - view your options: either you morally prepare to be chained to the stranger for as minimum 16 years, or, if you will fancy to break free - you will be at max, able to "visit", couple of times a year (finances allowing), your significant other abstract small human being.
The abstract small human being (currently lost for the country that has way too much population) was born in the capital of that abstract country; the birth was strangely given by the abstract human being who miraculously felt in that capital at home; and lived first 2 years of life at home. Is strangely still counted a subject of the abstract northern country.
Abstract northern country is very grateful to another abstract country of which threnodio might have heard, for lavishly distributing its property to whoever it finds proper. Without consulting the abstract northern country about its opinion.
Especially that it is bound to do so by the existing agreement between the abstract countries.
The abstract popular official whose name starts from "L" is as always right. Certainly the current case adds very much to mutual understanding and promotes everything there is, between bigger abstract formations.
One of these "formations" is tuned very energetically to improve its methods of fighting phenomena abstractly starting from letter "p".
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"38. ikamaskeip:
Actually I knew about the EU Forces and my mistake I meant to write since when was Her Majesty's Royal Navy in those EU forces?
Answer: They are not; and if Brown has let any RN Warships take orders from the EU then he has done it without any information for the UK Parliament or Public."
Well the RN is in the EU force but keep calm for the moment because the EU force is under RN command. Happy(ish)?
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"Any idea why this is not possible off the African coast?"
Let's see, we're talking about 15 ships and 300 crew. Flags include Philippine, Malaysian, Greek, Panama, German, Taiwan, British, Italian, Egyptian, St. Vincent & Grenadine, and Lebanese. Crew nationalities also include: Ukrainians, Russians, Indonesians, Romanians and Croatians.
I've no doubt many of these folk would love to see a US Navy SEAL bringing them to safety! However... How many of these same crewmembers' nations would immediately label ANY American act "extra-legal" or condemn us as "infidels"? How many of their protesters would call for our SEALs to be dragged into the World Court? Were the bosses of these crews asking our protection when they flagged with Panama or St. V or some other low-bid flags of convenience? How many Panama or St. V commandos do you suppose are prepared to die for other people's cargos? How about the shiftless Arabs who rely on the revenue from these cargoes? Think they'll step up and fix the situation? Oh gosh, imagine our shock and surprise if they proved to be the real organizers, financiers and abettors of this piracy, making money either way, preserving their deniability, while decrying the West whether we do anything about it–or not!
Sure we could go in guns blazing, mine the harbors, and bottle up Somalia in a week tops. But then what? Would we be blamed for starving Somalians just as we were continually accused of "starving 100,000 Iraqi children" even as Saddam was building one golden palace after another?
What say Atlas shrugs?
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#38. ikamaskeip wrote:
"the EU isn't and never will be "ours", at least, not if we anti-EU have any say "
But, at the time of writing, the UK is factually a full member of the EU. Even the most dyed-in-the-wool isolationist anti-European cannot I think refute that fact. So, I say again, that you are factually incorrect. You have buried your head in the sand since 1 January 1973.
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Looks like the US government just surrendered to the Pirates. Instead of paying say 100 or 200 million a year in extortion in the form of ransom, Secretary Clinton will ratchet it up to say 500 million a year in what are in effect bribes which will be called foreign aid. Of course we know from Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler, these bribes never work. They'll take the money and continue their piracy anyway. When will they ever learn, when will they e-ever learn? In our world of liberal thinkers, crime pays.
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firstly I dont see the point in getting international armed navys to patrol Somalias coastline.
Its quite simple, just pay the tax needed to go through. In this situation the Pirates (or fishers some people would prefer to call them, as in they are!) are not in the wrong.
Foreigners like the Germans, Brits and whoever else are in the wrong.
This is just a mere excuse to invade Somalia. Just like WMD were for Iraq and harbouring bin laden was for Afghanistan. When will the west stop invading and slaughtering millions of innocent people who have never done anything to them.
If the ships took another route, will we have a pirate situation from Somalia? They are fishermen thats all.
If Somalia had a stable govt, these ships would be forced to pay tax for using Somalias coastline.
And also, through their lineage Somalis are Arabs and thats why they are part of the Arab League. And Somalis dont expect the Arab league to do anything for them because till this day they havent done jack for the Palestinians. Those in high positions in the Arab league are on the American paylist so they wont contradict their empployers, not in the least! this is either true or the Arab leaders are more disgusting than I thought.
I would hope that people who live in Europe and developed nations would see through the medias lies in trying to get them to support another illegal and unjust war.
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#44, MAII,
It's been happening for years throughout Africa, once again I have to agree with you, I simply wonder what the difference is between organised crime and/or terrorism which they say they fight, and 'foreign aid' which goes direct into an offshore tax haven or similar, any ideas anyone?
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Mark writes: " ...and of course our own EU. ..."
It isn't "our EU."
It is the "EU" of apparatchiks, pension-hunters, liars, creeps, megalomaniacs, psychophants, freeloaders, gravytrainers, anti-democrats, deluded, theory-blinded nutters etc.
Please contact "EU NAVFOR" and point out that they represent a monstrosity which has denied us the right to a referendum we were promised.
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Most of the ships attacked by the pirates are NOT "fishing boats", or illegal waste dumpers, either. Most of the ships are aging rust buckets, too slow to move quicky, with underpaid, unarmed, third world crews. The rest are ships delivering food aid to a starving east Africa. The pirates are criminals, with the morals of thieves. They should be captured and tried for piracy in civilized countries.
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EU NAVFOR and other "EU"-missions are an attempt by the "EU"-dictatorship to find an excuse for the militarisation of the "EU". It is part of the attempt to create an "EU"-superstate
The people who rammed the Lisbon Treaty down our throats should not be in charge of a military force or indeed of a sweet shop.
I do not wish members of "EU NAVFOR" to get hurt. However given that the megalomaniacs who forced the Lisbon Treaty down our throats do not give a damn what the people of Britain or the "EU" think, I think it is likely that they will eventually embark on a mission which will justify armed opposition from the peoples imprisoned in the "EU".
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#48 SuffolkBoy2
Extreme language will persuade no one. You talk of the "EU"-dictatorship. It would be equally valid to talk of the "UK"-dictatorship. However, neither would be wholly accurate.
If either the EU or the UK are to survive, then an accommodation between national and trans-national issues has to be found.
Your language "armed opposition from the peoples imprisoned in the 'EU'." is so reminiscent of the kind of language used by some Scottish Nationalists in the 1950s about the then UK constitutional settlement. It's a period that most of us look back on with some understanding, and a huge relief that we've grown up beyond such simplistic thinking.
There are issues that need to be addressed in many constitutional settlements. Don't imagine that you somehow live within a perfect system
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We need to declare a Positive Identification / Free Fire zone on a narrow slice of international waters, East to West in the Indian Ocean.
This will allow us to concentrate naval assets in the area. Legitimate shipping will transit the Indian Ocean on this corridor, be identified, and be within shorter range of assistance in case they are attacked. Since most ocean traffic will transit this zone, naval assets can concentrate on searching suspect vessels in or approaching it, and arresting and destroying the pirates that do enter it.
This is a quicker option than organizing convoys or getting the political will to pursue pirates on land.
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CarlosSanchezGuerra wrote:
democracythreat@28:
"Perhaps I am just a mean guy to suggest killing the pirates. I am open minded to non-lethal methods but not so sure of their efficacy in this situation. This isn't a case of rambunctious kids in sunday school. It seems the French and American governments have decided to up the ante with special forces killing these guys - who, while I do value human life, garner no sympathy from me. "
You're not a mean guy at all. It is the fever of the current time. Everyone wants to kill some pirates this week. You'd be weird if you weren't talking hard on killing pirates. this whole thread is a potification on droning them. If the media keep it up, folks will be going into productive business selling pirate extermination kits to concerned citizens in Austria by the end of the month.
So I am not referring to your emotional motives, certainly not to suggest you are "mean". And I am not suggesting you should show sympathy for these pirates. I was just sort of suggesting that, as they are human beings, we should probably drone them or shoot them when we have the means to capture them with conventional tools.
"Lastly, I never suggested droning anybody. But I am open minded to that idea so long as necessary safe guards are taken (giving option of surrender, no attacks on land where children could be present, etc). "
No, it was Mark Mardell who raised the ghastly prospect of droning folks as the current manifestation of international fair play. But it is good to know you are open minded to the idea.
So long as the "safe guards" are taken. Yeah, right. We all have a lot of faith in safe guards, and smart weapons. Our troops are ever so careful, and our intelligence in the field is so excellent. That is why we killed so many children in Iraq.
Look, if you drop bombs on folks in houses and all you can see is pixelated outlines on a fifteen inch monitor, beamed down from a satelite...... do you seriously think that is a careful way to avoid child casualties?
It might be a lot of interesting things, but droning people is not careful, and it is fantasy to pretend that it respects human life.
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I have very little time tonight, but first thing is to cordon off pirates land bases with navy units, check every vessel going in and out for arms and/or launching boats; then land in Mogadishu and secure the airport; following with money trails,brokers ,middle mens etc. etc this will be the good start; I hope Russia and China will support navy blockade- all the talks about thousand miles seashore and arming the ships is waste of time and money; I know a little about maritime hostage life from my own experience.
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Hey, here's an idea. President Obama could call on his old friend Reverend Jeremiah Wright, you remember him. He's the one who said "God bless America? No! No! No! God damn America. Anyway, Obama could call on him to come out of retirement and go to Somalia as a missionary to convert these people to become good Christians and thereby redeem America. What have we got to lose? If it works, great we found a non lethal way to solve the problem. And if it doesn't....well Wright is in retirement now so who except his immediate family and close friends would miss him? Besides, Obama has a new Spiritual Advisor now, Rick Warren. Of course...there's always the risk....that Reverend Wright...could join the pirates. They might convert him.
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Dear Europeans (from America):
There are so many excellent writers on this "blog site," I have been reluctant to post a comment. The writing of, for example, democracythreat, webalice..., karolina... and threnodio (to name a minimum), is excellent and... I sometimes feel as if I'm back studying at a university (while having a full-time job).
But, please be tolerant of "MarcusAurellius..."-sp?-And you ARE at present, truly tolerant and sometimes agreeable. My opinions run counter, generally, to his opinions, But he is (you may agree) a brilliant (in my opinion) writer from America.
This, I think, is a "phenomenom" and should be noted as an "exception to the rule."
He may think this is faint praise, but I don't truly care, honestly. Thank you, soo much for the excellent work done here, European (and other) friends (for excellent writing). It is MY pleasure to read your comments.
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greypolyglot #40 and john_from_hendon #42.
What is a Royal Navy Admiral trained and paid by G.B. Taxation doing serving with the EU?
Who gives this Admiral his orders - the UK Ministry of Defence or some EUrocrats in Brussels - clearly it should only be the UK?
Since when did the HM Royal Navy come under EU jurisdiction - - the UK did not sign up to the so-called European Defence Force in 2001 or even send a representative to the inaugural meeting of the EU Defence Agency in July 2004 - - and HM Royal Navy is supposed to still be a full member of NATO?
Wake up UK Citizens! Your Nation's security is being handed over by stealth to the unaccountable, unrepresentative anti-american, anti-Brit/English nonentities of Brussels and Strasbourg.
Everything that we anti-EU Citizens have claimed is wrong about the duplicitous, venal, corrupt EU and UK Politicians who refuse to acknowledge 'our' Rights and Responsibilities as Citizens to decide 'our' future inc. 'our' Defence and Security is exposed in Mr Mardell's few sentences.
The rejected EU Constitution would have put UK Forces under EU control: Its revamped form, the Lisbon Treaty, sets-up an EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy who will have "..direct responsibility.." for all "..27 member States..". The present arrangement of cooperation between NATO and EDF in mutual 'security interests' will be replaced by a purely EU led Defence and Security Policy!
As for "ours"? Cannot recall ever looking up the meaning, but, always understood the word 'our' meant 'belonging to us', i.e. 'ourselves alone' and not part of something with 26 others! The EDF is not 'ours' and the EU is not 'ours', but, the UK does 'belong' to the EU and therefore since the one and only Referendum for membership of the EEC its evolved form called EU, for which there is no UK Citizen consent, does indeed 'own' and 'control' the UK, as this revealing Royal Navy story exposes in full!
All I and millions of UK/English Citizens ask is for one more chance to express through a Referendum that this is still 'our' Country and not a postal district of a grossly overmighty supranational insititution. If we lose that vote so be it, however, if 'Democracy' does not hold sway and the 'antis' are not given that vote then I can foresee a tragic time when the EU will be ordering Royal Navy warships etc. to train their weapons on rebellious UK/English Citizens. In the end no price or sacrifice is too great in Defence of 'our' free-will.
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48.SuffolkBoy2:
55.ikamaskeip:
Are you equally opposed to UK forces under UN or US control?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army
http://www.stormingmedia.us/54/5477/A547783.html
It looks as if you have both just woken up to something that has been going on for a long time.
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"armed opposition from the peoples imprisoned in the 'EU'."
I consider this a distinct possibility for the future. Probably not enough to cause civil war (fingers crossed) but enough for a terrorist group (ETA like). Interesting thought for those in the 'Nothing to hide, nothing to fear' camp who advocate arbitrary detention/droning people. With a British/English terrorist organisation on the warpath then you will no longer be immune to those nasty rules just because you are white.
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greypolyglot #56.
It looks as though you will continue to pretend anything is acceptable on behalf of the beloved EU!
UK/English membership of NATO goes back to its foundation; UK/English forces under foreign Command, e.g. American, Canadian has been a part of the NATO Command structure since its inception just as those nations forces have/do come under UK Officers depending on the military circumstances.
UK/English forces took part in the Korean War following the UNO Security Council request for Forces designated to defend South Korea against N.K.: At other times since then UK forces have been volunteered for duty with UNO Peacekeeping forces and this has sometimes been under UK or foreign command, e.g. the liberation of Kuweit campaign and UNPROFOR in the Balkans.
None of the above has anything to do with or is justification for UK/English Armed Forces coming under the direct Command of the European Union: This has NOT been going on for years; this has been surreptitiously set in motion by N.10 and Brussels with no regard to Parliamentary approval or the wishes of the UK/English Citizens.
I am astonished that some on here accept with equanimity that a Trade and Economic institution a majority of their Nation's electorate voted to join in 1975 should now have its own Armed Forces and that UK/English Forces without any appropriate Public discussion should be joining it!?
Truly astounding that a Referendum to level out Duty on Cigarettes, Tobacco, Cars etc. and ease internal cross-border transit of goods is now presented as Consent to UK/English men and women in uniform being in harms way to defend a bunch of EUrocrats!?
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To those britons questioning whether the UK actually signed up to a European defence policy, let me quote some passages of the 1998 Saint Malo Declaration:
"Franco-British summit - Joint declaration on European defense
Saint-Malo, 4 December 1998
The Heads of State and Government of France and the United Kingdom are agreed that:
1. The European Union needs to be in a position to play its full role on the international stage. ...
2. To this end, the Union must have the capacity for autonomous action, backed up by credible military forces, the means to decide to use them and a readiness to do so, in order to respond to international crises.
...
Europeans will operate within the institutional framework of the European Union (European Council, General Affairs Council and meetings of Defence Ministers).
...
3. In order for the European Union to take decisions and approve military action where the Alliance as a whole is not engaged, the Union must be given appropriate structures and a capacity for analysis of situations, sources of intelligence and a capability for relevant strategic planning, without unnecessary duplication, taking account of the existing assets of the WEU and the evolution of its relations with the EU. In this regard, the European Union will also need to have recourse to suitable military means (European capabilities pre-designated within NATO's European pillar or national or multinational European means outside the NATO framework).
4. Europe needs strengthened armed forces that can react rapidly to the new risks, and which are supported by a strong and competitive European defence industry and technology.
5. We are determined to unite in our efforts to enable the European Union to give concrete expression to these objectives."
Now, as for the persistent references to Brussels Eurocrats commanding troops. For God's sake, inform yourselves. The military staff working in Brussels at the Council (representatives of the member states) is OBVIOUSLY staff seconded from the Member States. I.e. the UK, France, Germany, etc. decide whom to send there from their own military.
So really, quite nagging about 'evil Brussels' without actually being decently informed. The point of the ESDP is simply that size matters, cooperation matters, and Britannia no longer rules the waves! Little men in rubber dinghies do, and a response by individual countries is simply insufficient.
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stellarBeloved (from America)
Thank you very much for the compliments we like compliments.
And I thought we know all here in the gang but no there are some quiet "peaceful watchers" :o)
Don't worry for MAvrelius it is by now taken for granted, like, now MAvrelius will say something tender and friendly. I count on his sensible advice on all matters, simply to divide all by 10 and you get the idea what he meant. Except that boys might indeed beat him up for his excessive talents, when they spill overboard.
You are un-fair to your American kin, rare contributors indeed but many tend to be on the other side of the extreme, I mean ? sometimes you see , like Dostoevsky time English, pre-historical LOL. With which there is something wrong but I can't tell what for a Russian impossible to pin-point. Simply a 19th century English and not exactly English at that, but gives an idea of a dash back in time to the 19th century. That's clear it's an American writing. :o)
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And poor MA is lately into criticising own homeland, which is must say a new somewhat confusing lay-out, you don't know how to react.
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On the theme of the thread, heard that it is a very "traffic-y" passage from ocean to ? to whenever they all go.
60% of all container cargo ships in the world cargo traffic per year take that route; and 40% of the? kind of poweder format :o) loaded ships, when the cargo is not locked into containers/boxes.
Combined this makes 25,000 ships a year passing by Somali shore - a rich choice! I'd say.
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The FatZebra and #58.
Well thanks for that missive which like so many from the pro-EU lobby assumes a higher degree of understanding and more informed position.
Unfortunately, and again as with so many of the pro-EU ilk, you chose to leave out the fairly important little detail that Her Majesty's United Kingdom Government declined to sign-up to the European Defence Force.
Indeed, the UK/English Government reaffirmed its commitment to NATO.
As a really clever person like you should know there is nothing in the 1998 Declaration obligating the UK/English Armed Forces to any participation in any Military venture under an EU remit. Or, did you just overlook that detail for reasons of convenience?
It is the case EDF Military Commanders are drawn from all nationalities (British Lt General David Leakey has been their Director since 2007), however, they are based in Brussels under the desigation (EUMS)'European Union Military Staff' which controls the 'EU Operations Centre' (EUOC, also in Brussels). At present those Military personnel work with/through either National or NATO structures, but, the dud Constitution and its rewritten version, the Lisbon Treaty, quite clearly puts them under the control and administration of the EU Office of the High Representative for Foreign and Security Policy.
You describe the anti-EU voices as "..nagging..", but, that is also typical of the pro-EU lobbyist; apparently to complain about a lack of accountability, representation, consultation on any EU-topic is to be put down as malicious or foolish or both, whereas your views are always full of reason and balance!
Alright, I will ask again and await the answer with full expectation of your reasoned, balanced justification: When did a Vote 40 years ago to join an institution to reduce Duties and ease Transit of goods within 9 European nations become Consent to being part of a supranational Armed Force?
Your "..Little men in little dinghies" = "Little men/women in Brussels ordering British Citizens to risk their lives for an unelected, unresponsive, unaccountable organisation."
"OBVIOUSLY", someone, somewhere has "PIRATED" the keyword CONSENT.
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stellar
If you have not already done so, I suggest you read stories by O'Henry who will show you the irony and humor of life and Poe who will show you the truly macabre. They will give you a different context to put things into perspective with.
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#58. ikamaskeip:
What I find astounding is that you and others did not have the wit to see where it was all heading. I did then and do now. And it's not my "beloved EU" - it's just a "work in progress" natural progression along the path from village elders, tribal chieftains, regional principalities, small nations, merged nations, unions of nations .....> And, as I've said before, the most virulently opposed groups at the time of our referendum were the fascists and the communists. Yes, I am aware that numbers of people who were neither were also opposed so don't waste your time reminding me and trotting out the list of names again.
You demean our armed forces by claiming that they are being put in harms way to "defend a bunch of EUrocrats". If you care to check you'll find that they have been and are engaged in more serious activities.
You might like to read up on EUMS on their official website.
http://consilium.europa.eu/showPage.aspx?id=1039&lang=en
or the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUFOR
You still don't quite bring yourself to say "yes, I approve of UK forces under US control". Would you care to?
My thanks, by the way, to TheFatZebra #59. :-) That's one that I had forgotten :-(
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jingo diabolicous wrote:
stellar
"If you have not already done so, I suggest you read stories by O'Henry who will show you the irony and humor of life and Poe who will show you the truly macabre. They will give you a different context to put things into perspective with."
So that is why you are like you are. You read Poe.
It figures.
It also figures that you have discovered the irony and humour of life from a fellow with the name "O'Henry". Why am I not surprised?
Anyways, Marcus, how was the tea party? The snow here is melting and the taxes are still VERY LOW.
Heh.
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Just heard our Foreign Ministry chap questioned by foreign media on this and that (Chechnya end of war mostly) and was asked how Russia is going to participate in Somali int'l navy operations. He said we escort own ships there allright (it's on shifts' basis, one navy ship works then takes holidays and is re-placed by another) plus all who happen to be in the vicinity. That Russian Navy are on-line with other countries' Navy doing the same there.
But stressed there is no universal understanding in the UN kind of an anti-pirate committee, of which Russia is a member, not even in the four separate functional bodies of this committee.
It is still not defined what is legal what is illegal for the Navy ships to do there.
No agreement where the caught pirates are to be questioned and tried by court.
So each country's Navy gets oriented by own ideas what's right and what's wrong in the amount of force applied, and what to do with the captured pirates.
Said that Russia gets oriented by the agreement we signed with Somali government (apparently there is then some sort of a government? some place?) which specifies what Russian Navy can do what not with their pirates. That we were granted by Somali government a permission to enter their 200-mile zone of waters in pirate tracing. Which we do. But it is a short-term permission from Somali, given for a limited period of time.
Foreign Ministry rep also said there is a new idea put now forward by US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, that the Navy of "nearby states" - namely - 3 - China, South Korea and Japan should unite and make one fighting Navy block there.
A foreign journalist asked him how he feels about not being invited into this American project, and overall how would feel Russian Navy meeting a 3-party new Navy block there.
He said we greet any ideas of combining strength in fighting piracy in general, and in particular would like to see some structured approach with clear-cut rules achieved on a wider level, via UN.
______________
From other questions LOL at that press-conference it gets clear Somali pirates are not going to be the main Russian frontline in May. We are hysterical NATO announced its plan to conduct massive NATO trainings throughout May, of all places in the world - in Georgia.
And that we sent a note of protest to NATO new head about it, asking to call this "bizarre" idea away.
Apparently scared that Saakashvili, having stuffed his territory with NATO soldiers, would feel safe from all possible Russian counter-attacks on Tbilisi, and will undertake a strictly Georgian, no NATO in no way, offensive to S. Osetia and Abkhasia to grabatise these.
He doesn't have many better chances and much choice, as plans to serve his full term to 2014 as Georgia's President, with which his opposition is clearly unhappy with. As they besiege him on all sides in Tbilisi (without rural Georgia participating in the protests; there are road blocks by police, rural Georgians can't reach the capital), and it's better Saakashvili does something clever now to restore his country beliefs in him.
But anyway may be it is simply that NATO decided to protect Saakashvili a little bit, by sending him additional troops LOL.
Anyway Russian Foreign Ministry said that if NATO won't call its plan for exercises in Georgia back, we are going to build up our military presence in Abkhasia and South Osetia in the remaining 10 days like hell.
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greypolyglot and #65.
Well, it may not be your "beloved EU" but it is a body you undoubtedly hold dear and close!
As for the, "..you (I) and others did not have the wit to see where it was all heading.." Please!
I am fairly well educated, quite experienced at home and overseas and now long in the tooth: however, even as a callow 26 year old in 1975 I knew it was unlikely I would retain my slim frame, head of hair, 20-20 eyesight, boundless energy, broad mental faculties and devilish good looks. In every one of those it is my regret to inform you my wife, children and grandchildren all confirm time has worked its inevitable deteriorating purposes.
So, all hats off to you and inestimable congratulations on how well you have done in life's lottery of the aging process!
You "knew" in 1973 - 75 that the Common Market was a cover name for a Federal Union of Europe with entire Political-Judicial-Trade-Economic-Fiscal and now Military control over 27 formerly independent States. You "knew" all along that people such as me can be likened to "..village elders" stubbornly opposing the trendy multi-tribal unit!
I am not sure whether to feel insulted or overjoyed to be recognised as having a good deal of knowledge gained from experience and therefore knowing when to admit a Wolf in Sheep's wool is threatening the whole community of people I care for.
There is nothing more "demeaning" to our Armed Forces than to have orders issued from an unelected, unaccountable, unrepresentative organisation based in Brussels that you claim is a "work in progress"! So, the UK/English Armed Forces are now subject to the minions of a "work in progress"?
Not sure what you meant about GB Armed Forces under USA control/command? Of course they have been and will be again! Or did you think the UK Military involvement in Korea, Kuweit, Balkans and Afghanistan was not under the aegis of the NATO Supreme Command? In addition there's the Iraq campaign and others, so, yes US Commanders have been there with GB Forces, but, then as I wrote some time ago that goes back to the foundations of NATO and in some ways to WW2.
Nothing wrong with that.
However, I would just like you "to bring yourself" to approve of and tell me where and when exactly you think GB Forces are going to be willing to train, never mind accept orders from a French or German General? Neither of them has experienced a combat situation since the First Gulf War and even then the French insisted on their own Command and of course the Germans were prevented by International Law from taking part except as Support and Supply forces?
I note, yet again, it is you that could not bring yourself to answer the Question: When did a Vote 40 years ago for a Trade Treaty of Union become CONSENT to UK/English Armed Forces being under orders from Brussels?
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alice wrote:
"We are hysterical NATO announced its plan to conduct massive NATO trainings throughout May, of all places in the world - in Georgia.
And that we sent a note of protest to NATO new head about it, asking to call this "bizarre" idea away.
Apparently scared that Saakashvili, having stuffed his territory with NATO soldiers, would feel safe from all possible Russian counter-attacks on Tbilisi, and will undertake a strictly Georgian, no NATO in no way, offensive to S. Osetia and Abkhasia to grabatise these.
He doesn't have many better chances and much choice, as plans to serve his full term to 2014 as Georgia's President, with which his opposition is clearly unhappy with. As they besiege him on all sides in Tbilisi (without rural Georgia participating in the protests; there are road blocks by police, rural Georgians can't reach the capital), and it's better Saakashvili does something clever now to restore his country beliefs in him.
But anyway may be it is simply that NATO decided to protect Saakashvili a little bit, by sending him additional troops LOL.
Anyway Russian Foreign Ministry said that if NATO won't call its plan for exercises in Georgia back, we are going to build up our military presence in Abkhasia and South Osetia in the remaining 10 days like hell."
These NATO exercises in georgia are madness. They provoke an issue that doesn't need provoking.
I think Obama is making a huge mistake to play around with NATO expansion in Georgia, simply because it creates so much ill feeling in Russia that will play into the hands of the Russian military industrial complex. Sooner or later, someone is going to say "We must stop NATO expansion in the near abroad.", and they will have behind them the financiers who make the policy real.
The USA and NATO cannot afford to provoke Russia into a hot war in the near abroad. Firstly, we would lose. Secondly, we would lose. Thirdly, even if we win, we will lose peace and stability in Europe. The US could only defend a government in the near abroad IF NATO was already defunct. There is no way eastern Europe and Germany could send troops to fight Russians in the Caucaus and expect to enjoy a peaceful way of life at home.
The US is playing a dangerous game with the tie chewer. It is almost as if the military industrial complex in the USA needs the revival of the same in Russia, and so they are provoking a hot war to keep the whole business model viable.
I sincerely hope Obama is not the soft touch that the US military community believe him to be. He is going to be tested as Biden said, but it will be by his own military command, not by anyone else. I would watch what happens to Robert Gates. If he gets pushed out by the hawks, Obama has lost control of his military.
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68. ikamaskeip:
When did a Vote 40 years ago for a Trade Treaty of Union become CONSENT to UK/English Armed Forces being under orders from Brussels?"
Clearly you couldn't be bothered to check the facts of EUMS.
From their own website -
"The EUMS is a General Directorate within the Council General Secretariat. It is the only permanent integrated military structure of the European Union.
Established on 11 June 2001, the EU Military Staff receives taskings from the EU Military Committee (which represents the Chiefs of Defence of all the Member States)."
Please note the all important final phrase.
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Is it a problem to arm a merchant ship or not as i see it the vast majority of tankers or cargo carryers have large bays holding cargo e,t,c.what is wrong with a helle pad welded in place on the hold so the ship could have its a responce aircraft at hand ie gun ship . but then i hear tou say thats to expencive,not if there are others in the convoy paying to be escorted to there destination at the same time.it might reduce the insurance premiums at the same time only asked?
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@69 democracythreat
Yes, we heard there is a pressure at President Obama at home; like, approx. what MA complains about - "is our President a softie? it's un-fitting the image of the United States." So Obama can't allow himself to be viewed as a "softie", and kind of has to do something? "un-softie" to play to the audience.
MAvrelius might like to think over, that should his Obama do what he is pressed into doing by own "tough" guys's - that would not be a characteristic feature of a strong man.
Still, politicians in the US depend so much on their audience, have to play up . LOL . a reverse side of the coin of a government that is democratically "answerable" to its citizens.
Still I hope it is not a MAvrelius demand to Obama to provoke Saakashvili into more heroic deeds. But rather, a demand of the particular old campus in the US.
(Hardly Mavrelius nees more ties, chewed or un-chewed, and come to think about it, has an own Georgia allright.)
Awfully stressful a politician's job in the US, so many internal pressures.
(ours only have to care about troubles from outside LOL. easy ride! :o)
Likewise it is believed here this time Obama will not send humanitarian aid to N.Korea as Bush always did, to get them back at the negotiation table, after the yet one more N. Korean caprice and hysterics. Can't allow himself to look a softie, so N. Korea gambled wrongly this time. Still play old tricks, not desiring to note that the world around has changed.
Personally, I of course prefer Obama demonstrates how "big and awful" ;o) USA is on other fronts, leaving Georgia alone.
There is a rich choice, whole 5 internal opposition applicants to his tsar chair, but they are now confused as Washington still hasn't chosen any of them - LOL!
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greypolyglot and #70.
Duly noted you ducked the question again!
The all "important final phrase" is not an asnwer to the question of CONSENT by the UK/English Citizens who voted 40 years ago to join a Trade tariff group of nations.
You can persist in reference to EUMS (and as it was me that mentioned EUMS first kindly at least credit me with having awareness of the details about it) as the slick EU response, however, that simply is your typically EU-lobby ploy to move the goalposts everytime it gets uncomfortable and the "Democratic defecit" in the EU/UK/England is put up for debate.
So long as 45,000,000 voters in the UK/England are denied the Right and Responsibility by the UK/England Government and by the duplicitous EU (which claims to be a 'democratic institution' and yet will not acknowledge there is even an issue concerning UK/England membership) there is a real and growing prospect of civil unrest within the next few years. I believe denial of this fundamental electoral process within the UK/England is taking a risk with the Citizens' willingness to comply with the normal standards of Political discourse. Whether it is still Brown or Cameron or even Clegg (!?) who is PM the refusal of a Referendum that would now also be deciding who gives orders to go and fight to men and women in the UK/England Army, Navy and Airforce is playing dangerously destabilising games with the social fabric of these Islands.
I cannot understand how any sensible Citizen or even the dullards in Westminster and the greed-driven obscure MEPs can think it is either honourable or a practicable way to proceed and continue to deny a Referendum.
I repeat, somehow, along the way since 1975 the key Democratic word of CONSENT has been hijacked/pirated/kidnapped by venal, corrupt and wholly unaccountable elements within the EU and the UK. The use of HM Royal Navy in the service of the EU is sadly just one more undemocratic nail in the EU-coffin of the chances of avoiding serious disorder.
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73. ikamaskeip:
Consent (no need to "shout" thank you) is granted by the elected UK government. Now, if you don't like that then change the UK government. If the existing parties won't do what you want then start your own, get elected, lead your majority party and take the UK out of the EU. I'm sorely tempted to to say "please take the UK out of the EU" but I do sincerely believe that the future of my country and my descendants is best secured within the EU. Sorry if you disagree and think that I'm misguided but then that's life.
May I please ask you to direct your ire at our own government. Neither the EU nor its civil servants, your hated "eurocrats", have seized anything from the UK. Whatever authority they hold has been given not stolen. Would Thatcher, Blair or even Brown have stood idly by while your "venal, corrupt and wholly unaccountable elements within the EU" simply took over the UK? Come off it!
OK, you're unhappy. Stop whinging, get off your backside and do something, hopefully legal, about it. Become an MEP and fight 'em from within. Be St George in Brussels and root out the evil. If you can't be bothered then you deserve whatever happens.
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As the French fishermen are now available, perhaps they could create a blockade to prevent the pirates leaving port?
Seriously, if ever there was an opportunity for the United Nations to actually do something to justify its existence, this would seem to be it. Surely the UN could define a "safe shipping zone" that is patrolled by aircraft. Any water craft entering the zone without authorization would be subject to aerial attack.
This would seem like a better option than arming merchant ships or allowing individual nations act alone.
Pandering to the pirates has only allowed them to escalate their activities. The notion that they will "play nice" if we don't get too rough with them is totally ludicrous. They only thing that will stop them now is force. They have declared war on the rest of the world. Let them understand the consequence of their brutal actions in no uncertain terms.
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greypolyglot and #74.
Sorry, confused your's and FatZebra's reply who shouted "obviously" at me.
As for directing my ire at the UK/English Government I would have thought it was fairly clear I was doing some of that in parts of my Comments.
Well, Thatcher was removed for daring in Parliament to say "No, No, No" to more EU takeovers: Major, Blair, Brown standing up for UK/England interests! Now there's a really funny concept and as about as likely as Cameron or Clegg actually listening and forming Policy based on UK/English Public Opinion! I.e. No chance!
The EU gravy-train is in full flow for the elite Political leadership and the EUrocrats, so, 'Democracy' has been well and truly sold off: At Westminster it is about which of them gets nearest to the highest paid jobs and fattest contracts. No.10 is the proxy for Brussels' venality and corruption; virtually every UK/England Politician has been suborned by the EU and the few that aren't are labelled eccentric or simply ignored and frozen out of office.
I'm afraid: I fear for the UK/England if it remains in the EU without the membership issue being resolved once and for all in the public's mind. I fear even more for the UK/England of less than 10 years from now if enough Brits lose all their faith and trust in their Political Leadership and the violence that will stem from such a disillusioned scenario!
Do you think even one MP ever reads these Blogs or considers the whelter of bitterness and resentment building against them? I really fear for my Children and Grandchildren (1 pro, 1 anti and 1 in Australia and couldn't care less) if this EU matter gets out of hand. Our politicians are so complacent - there they are squabbling over drivel and trivia like an infants playground - when their Citizens/Electorate are starting to turn their backs in droves on the 'democratic process'. And why not? If you demand a Referendum, get promised a Referendum and get told no Referendum often enough on the issue that enlivens more political debates than any other why would you bother with the General Election - they are just a bunch of liars and con artists - so, then you read the disgraceful BNP are a "threat to NuLab in the EU Elections"... Well! I wonder why that is NuLab, Conservative, LibDem? Could it be none of the main Political Parties have listened and acted on their Citizens' repeated calls for a Democratic voice on the key issue affecting their Nation!?
Let's look at the BNP's appeal: 'too many foreigners, too many jobs going overseas, too many laws from those europeans' etc.
What a load of utter rubbish but it plays well when things are tough and it does even better when the mainstream Parties are perceived, rightly or wrongly, to be turning their collective backs on their electorate. Hold a Referendum, thrash out the issues, and the extremists get spanked whatever the result. UK/English Citizens are not so shallow they will be swayed one way or another by tabloids or broadsheets; they've been around the world, they have the internet and they are a good deal more sophisticated than the Political elite give them credit for. That is why the denial of a Referendum is such a dangerous political miscalculation: These Islands' Citizens know when they are being sold short. Year-on-year the failure to uphold their 'democratic right and responsibility' to express their opinion is going to cost a terrible price unless there is a fundamental change of direction by the 650 lazy incompetents presently sitting in the Palace of Westminster.
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#76. ikamaskeip:
I can find little to contradict in your assessment of the British body politic. My own view is "a pox on the lot of 'em".
My only disagreement is with your characterisation of EU civil servants. I've met quite a few and I know how hard it is to get a job in one of the EU bodies. About half of the staff are graduates in law, economics, IT or the sciences and everyone, even a filing clerk, has to know two foreign languages. Those that I've had dealings with are decent honest people who are trying to make the world, well, Europe, a better place. Yes, I know they're well paid but so are the employees of multi-national companies who're working away from their home country. OK, I'm not daft and I have no doubt that there will be some rotten apples in the barrel but you really shouldn't write off a whole bunch of people that you haven't met.
Will you continue to whinge in secret on Mark's blog or will you carry your message onto the streets and try to get yourself elected so that you can start to put right what you see as an injustice?
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greypolyglot and #77.
What is it about the pro-EU lobbyists that lets them think is always their prerogative to label and be rude about those of us who oppose UK/England membership of the EU?
How is it when I write perfectly straightforwardly without any unfair reference to you or your views you still can claim that I am "whinging"?
Other than to observe you are making broad assumptions about the veracity and rectitude of EUrocrats, MEPs and UK MPs ("..honest people who are trying to make Europe a better place.." Oh dear, how painful the next decade will be for you as the 'EU Project' fails) as if the present crop are a different species from all that have gone before in the mirky, self-aggrandizing world of Politics I've nothing further to add.
Cheers.
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How do pirates in a small vessel manage to get on board huge container ships?
Why do international cargo ships sail so close to Somalia?
Why can't the pirate boats, which take 5 hours to get back to the coast, be intercepted by supersonic jets from aircraft carriers that can cover the same distance in less than 5 minutes? Jets could also be sent from Saudi Arabia or Kenya.
The Somalian coast appears to be around 1000 miles long. Jets from just one Aircraft carrier positioned midway would be no more than 20 minutes away at the extremes, and with satellite observation they must have 4-5 hours notice.
Something is very wrong if this problem can't be solved.
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78. ikamaskeip:
What is it about the pro-EU lobbyists that lets them think is always their prerogative to label and be rude about those of us who oppose UK/England membership of the EU?"
I'm very restrained. Please see the language used by some of the anti-EU posters.
"How is it when I write perfectly straightforwardly without any unfair reference to you or your views you still can claim that I am "whinging"?"
Easily. I am a linguist therefore I know languages, starting with my own. The definition of "to whinge" is "to complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner." You whinge.
"you are making broad assumptions about the veracity and rectitude of EUrocrats, MEPs and UK MPs"
I'm not making any assumptions. I write of the first group from personal knowledge - of some but not all I concede. As for groups 2 and 3 I thought that we were in agreement there - along with what looks like a very large part of the population.
Agreed, we probably have little further to say to each other but I would still urge you to stop just complaining persistently (there, is that more to your taste?) and actually do something.
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greytounge writes about i-skam:
"Agreed, we probably have little further to say to each other but I would still urge you to stop just complaining persistently (there, is that more to your taste?) and actually do something."
There are all sorts of laws against doing things, greypol. If a person is poor enough, they can be guilty of loitering even when doing, precisely, nothing at all. Which I have always thought is a bit odd.
But regardless, I think you should reconsider your position, and urge iskam to keep complaining. You are are a nice man, one of the best fellows here. But, when the proto-anarchist revolution comes, well... you know.
"He was a nice guy."
It is what they always say about counter revolutionary linguists who are on the wrong side of history at the crucial point of change.
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WebAlice;
I've criticized my government and my country many times in the past including on these message boards. For instance, I was very critical of President Bush for not blowing up Iran and North Korea when he had the chance. I even sent him two letters by e-mail telling him so about Iran. I was very critical of the AIG bailout which IMO was more to save European banks than AIG itself. I said I wouldn't vote and I didn't because IMO, McCain was equally as incompetent as Obama although the reasons were different. I've criticized Clinton, the Democrats, the Republicans the House, the Senate, the courts, and private corporations including CEOs. That I save my best insults for Europeons is only because they've earned them.
I don't give two whits about the Republic of Georgia one way or another. Your government strikes me as extremely stupid. It has done everything possible to thwart foreign investment it desperately needs, done everything it could do to prevent an infusion of foreign technology and foreign management skills it desperately needs. Whom do you think will suffer by it? Not us. It was so stupid, it seized four islands in the last days of WWII from Japan which it will not give back, thereby cutting itself off from friendly access to the second most important industrial nation in the world and right on its doorstep. How much more effectivey could I ask Russia to put a gun to its head and pull the trigger. Click, this time the chamber was empty. Next time...who knows.
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Richard_SM
Yes, something that flies would always be quicker.
But the boats are useless to intercept on their way home, presumably?
When they grabatise a ship, they return to the shore on board that new acquisition. You can't strike a ship with their crew captured and on-board, it seems.
And on the way to the ship they are to grab - they are not yet "pirates", technically. But fishermen. That is, until they switch on full speed and start climbing over.
Recent ships grabbed by the pirates - have all been taken 900 to 1000 miles off Somali shore. They hunt by now far more far away from their native 200 mile zone. Money acquired during last year allowed to acquire better vessels. Russian maritime magazine says "any next day to be expected to start hunt in the Pacific."
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You know, I think that regardless of what the French and American forces had done when confronting the pirates, everyone would find a problem with it. They shot them, yes. Was it wrong? Possibly. Capt. Pottengal Mukundan, director of the piracy reporting center at the International Maritime Bureau, seemed to think that France and the US did exactly the right thing.
Mukundan even said, “If all flag states were to take that kind of robust action against the pirates we would not have the problems of Somali piracy to the extent that we have today.”
Make no mistake; I do not think I immediately killing every criminal out there is the right course of action.
But honestly, look at the facts. The French and Americans killed 5 people who had been holding hostages (which, consequently, were freed after the killings).
But even more than that fact, lets not forget that the US and France are not participating in one-sided violence. A week ago Tuesday, pirates attacked a US ship but did not make it on board. There have also been threats of violence from the pirates, even before the recent attacks by the French and Americans to rescue Capt. Richard Phillips.
"We have decided to kill U.S. and French sailors if they happen to be among our future hostages," said Abdullahi Ahmed, a member of a Somali pirate group.
If we’re going to condemn the French and Americans, then let’s at least acknowledge that they’re fighting fire with fire, rather than shooting up a storm without cause.
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Gosh, is it possible that the French and the Americans might actually be doing the right thing?
How would any of us feel if a member of our family was being held hostage by someone with a gun at his back, and the sniper didn't take out the pirate "in case we upset the pirate's pals"?
There appears to be a lot of fear that the situation will escalate if we react too harshly. This means that the pirates are winning through intimidation. Meanwhile, the pirates have become even bolder and the world has been wetting its pants and pandering to them.
Appeasement does not work. It will work no better now than it did for Neville Chamberlain. Like it or not, this is war. If we keep pretending it is something else, the situation will only deteriorate further.
The "World Powers" response to this situation is not even pathetic.
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greypolyglot and #80.
It may be that your are a 'linguist', but, if you have any grade 'A' qualification then it is surely in condescension.
Although you may 'know languages' starting with your own own I will assist you with this word as it goes to character as much any 'whinge' on my part alludes to myself:
'Condescension' n. 1 a patronizing manner. 2 affability towards presumed inferiors.
As you were so good as to point out my faults based on a few readings I am quite sure when you re-read your own Comments you will find enough remarks to, how shall I put it, oh yes, "..to stop just looking down on others (there, is that more to your taste?) so publicly on Mark's Blog and actually.." realise this is a forum for open debate.
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86. ikamaskeip:
I regret that you mistake a general affability for "affability towards presumed inferiors".
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68. ikamaskeip:
" So, the UK/English Armed Forces are now subject to the minions of a "work in progress"?"
Surely that's the case even if you leave aside the EU? Unless the UK, in its present state, has reached the pinnacle of human development then it too is also a "work in progress".
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"He was a nice guy".
That is what the proto anarchists are going to say about greybeard. After it is over. Mark my words.
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Found smth law-wise, re pirates. UN Convention 1982 on maritime law.
Russian maritime magazine says it still acts and nothing fresher.
Unlike other actions at sea when citizenship is taken into consideration (various clashes and conflicts) - in relation to pirates works a princip of "universal jurisdiction".
This means that a military (Navy ship) of any state, if it has "enough ground to suspect that one or the other ship is busy in piracy", "can conduct forceful action towards that ship - up to arrest of that whole ship, members of the crew of that ship and arrest of property on board that ship."
"If pirates attack or give armed resistance they can be destroyed (I think it means killed and ship destroyed) EXCEPTING in territorial waters of another state".
This means that any Navy ship can "destroy" pirates and their ships beyond 200-mile Somali country zone. When they step beyond.
Now the latest news is Somali government (there is a Government there some place) addressed the UN Security Council with the request to modify the Convention and allow Navy ships of all countries to destroy pirates inside 200-mile Somali territorial water zone.
Apparently it means that whenver that Government is it is fed up with own pirates as well.
UN Security council worked out the following sceme that acts at present: Any country can address Somali government for the permission to be able to destroy Somali pirates within Somali 200-zone. Somali government considers the application and grants it for a limited period of time, simultaneously, informing the General Secretary of the UN that such a permission has been granted.
This scheme is described in UN Security Council Resolution No 1816.
By this, such an applicant (country) willing to fight pirates in Somali territorial zone and displaying such an initiative receives from UN "Status of a Co-operating State".
In the result, if one has "A status of a Co-operating State" - it's up to that Navy to destroy or capture pirates, within or beyond Somali 200 mile zome, PROVIDED there is an attack on it or "armed resistance".
If destroyed all clear; if pirates are captured there acts Article 105 of that UN Convention on piracy of 1982. That Article 105 states that "law institutions of the country whose ship captured a pirate ship have right to conduct decisions in relation to the punishment of these pirates and decide "measures to be taken about the pirate ship."
This means caputured pirates can be tried by court of the country who caputured them. And that country 's court can also rule what to do with the ship.
An additional meaningful legal document exists, UN Security Council Resolution of 16 December 2008, No 1851, that says that "shipriders" ???
"shipwriters" ??? "from boatrdering the Aden Gulf states have the right to conduct investigation of pirates on board the military vessels of other states".
Who are these and how to get them on your board - this I didn't figure out.
Anyway this seems to be the legal int'l environment with some frames of work already in it.
With relation to Russia it means that we have that "Status". seems to me kind of a licence to kill. within 200 mile zone. only neither killed anyone so far or captured. but the next Russian ship taking turns en route there will act according to all listed above: "armed resistance" can kill, no resistance to the Navy ship - can grab pirates, bring home and try by Russian court at home.
__________
Of other news sorry Russian Easter approaching :o) a week later than everyone's , so I am painting eggs! Haven't asked how other countries manage the task a week ago which regret very much. :o)
(I apply a historical method / pre-historical - that is you roll over coloured threads all in the house onto one egg, and boil it in a pan of cold water, and then when it's boiled - you un-roll the cotton and silk and whatever - and the egg appears all stripy in fine multi-coloured thin lines.
Method 2 - paint dissolved in water where you put those eggs to get them tinted/coloured, and then I have golden foil leaves, to roll over and rub with a coin and then gold from the foil transfers onto eggs here and there making sparks.
Hard work as you understand LOL, wreck and ruin of slippery eggs spoiled in the production - 20 %!
It's also good to rub ready product by cloth in sunflower oil to get extra shine and gloss. They all slip out fall and break.
All Russia is busy painting eggs, all white ones wooshed from the counters as easiest to tint into various colours. From the brown-orange shell ones you can get only "golden" ones, or dark red. No blue or green or stripes' options.
And then whoever you see next week work, neighbours relatives friends you have to swap those eggs and compare the design and colours and which are better and all. And eat them up all of course. :o)
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Well if the world is not going to challenge the right of pirates to rob, extort, ruin lives, and generally make the world even a more miserable place than it already is, there is only one thing left for me to do. Invest in them. I'll wait until they have their own ticker symbol on the New York Stock Exchange. Does anyone think they'd wouldn't manage money better than the pirates who managed the financial system and ran it bankrupt? I don't see how they could do worse. How lucky the execs of the big banks and investment houses are that all pirates don't wind up getting shot.
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MA, :o)
- Why Somali pirates don't attend the G-20 meeting?
- They are busy, business calling for attention, did not notice there is a financial crisis. :o)
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alice wrote:
"All Russia is busy painting eggs, all white ones wooshed from the counters as easiest to tint into various colours. From the brown-orange shell ones you can get only "golden" ones, or dark red. "
My wife has also been busy painting eggs. I wondered what that was about. This reinforces my view that the baltic states are culturally russian, but leaving that to one side for a moment, I have gained some local baltic intelligence regarding the method of obtaining the dark red colouration you describe.
So: In the forests of western Russia *cough*, the people use onions to colour eggs. They subsequently eat these eggs in a torture cult ritual called "Easter", but first they boil down whole onions, with the skins still attached, to obtain a dark and staining liquid of a reddish brown hue.
By boiling the white eggs in this dark liquid until they are well cooked, they obtain eggs that are deep reddish brown in colour. Presumably this pleases their god, and it may also serve other cultural purposes that are currently obscured to me.
By the way, I am told that Snow White is actually based on a poem by Chekhov. Is that right?
And if that is right, what about the dwarves? Apparently (I am told) Chekhov didn't have any dwarves in his story. But I don't see how the plot can work with no dwarves.
I am not saying Disney was right to rip off chekhov, throw in some dwarves and promote the whole thing as original entertainment. I would not go so far.
But I would like to understand how the story works, if Chekhov didn't use dwarves.
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directdemocracy, LOL, we are always ready to give what is due to a good story. interests of Literature (from the capital letter) - first, nationalism - second. LOL.
In that case I think American invention, dwarves supplement, works very cute and we royally grant America :o) the right to run that story with dwarves in parallel. Disney presented his case convincingly enough. LOL.
We do not worry remember Russia views itself as a proto-mummy looking with pleasure and sometimes disappointment at its children.:o)
Our fairy-tals are of course! most pre-historical in the region, and serve the soup base for fresher versions.
As the Russian Snow-Whitish girl old story goes, I am really lost to remember the exact plot, need to look up, "how, without dwarfs".
An ugly step-mother I think in it there somehow. And a heavily dioxin poisoned apple.
What every girl in Russia knows, if you take in hands an oval mirror on a "leg" and look into it, you first impulse is to ask that mirror a question:
Am I the snow-whitiest of all in this God's green Earth,
With the best blush there is and the whitiest (skin) of all?
To which the nasty mirror replies:
You are beuatiful. No comments. But there, in the deep deep forest, there lives a small "tsarevna" (a tsar's daughter) - now SHE is the whitiest and niciest of all (so get lost with your silly questions).
Those damn mirrors never lie, and the only thing is you can break it. Or learn to live with the news somehow. :o)
Or - send dioxin apples as a present.
_____________
On eggs painting - three ha ha. Surely I'll get onion skin' tinted as min a dozen next week, the most straightforward (and economical. and environmental-friendly must admit) solution. As min 3 apartments on my staircase landing now would be busy exactly skinning onions, or using the onions' skins saved for that for months.
But thank you very much for the advice anyway.
democracythreat, I strongly recommend you impress your household with the threads' option. If you happen to have coloured ordinary rolls of thread, what's the name ? usual thing you take when you need to sew on a lost button. Only roll them onto a watered raw and wet thus egg, on a dry one you'd never be able to rotate over, threads won't clip and will slide off. You can even dump it then OK into the pan with the onion skins, where the rest are boiling. Anyway under the threads the egg will stay white and when you extract it - will end up excellently stripy. :o)
You also paint by pen or whatever on every egg two letters "X B" - Christ Resurrected.
Slovakia and Serbia just saw on TV busy in the same manner. They do extraordinary wonders with beer wax and intricate egg colouring, I think spots under beer wax stay white after tinting.
What a nice day, that "divine fire" has descended as usual in Jerusalem church where Christ's coffin is/was, all on time, as every year, 3pm Moscow time, so end of the world delayed for all of us for a year, good news. :o) Now an airplane carries that divine fire to Moscow.
Greece got it first, right from the creepy blue sparks on the spot in the church, their patriarch, and Armenia got, and our spark is en route to Moscow. A great night ahead,
that's our main holiday in the year. Well. 9th of May as well. Don't know which better.
We are all "Easter" people. In the West Christmas is more important, and here - Easter. Think yourself: it is good to be born, of course. No denial.
But to resurrect from death - is a far more difficult a thing to do! :o)
Definitey something worthy attention. Gives a hope to overcome the main trouble facing us kind of alas all, death - un-beaten (yet) enemy of the humanity. A major trouble of this imperfect world.
To overcome this problem - it is something. That's why we favour Easter.
LOL!
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WebAlice;
"MA, :o)
- Why Somali pirates don't attend the G-20 meeting?
- They are busy, business calling for attention, did not notice there is a financial crisis."
The Somali pirates are not having a financial crisis. They have a successful business model, even in these times. Occasional losses the civilized world looks at as triumphs such as the rescue of the captain of the Maersk ship are no worse than other businesses occasionally suffer during normal and good times.
"An ugly step-mother I think in it there somehow. And a heavily dioxin poisoned apple."
Among my favorite fairy tales as a child were the ones I read about Baba Yaga, the Russian witch who lived in a hut on fowl's legs with a clock in its stomach and flew through the air on a flaming iron mortar. If Hansel and Gretel had met her instead of a soft stupid West European witch, they'd have been eaten for sure. Her depiction in Mossursky's Pictures at an Exhibition is almost visual. By comparison, the Wicked Witch of the West in Oz looked like a pansy. I also view the depiction of the selected virgin to dance herself to death as a sacrifice to the gods of fertility by a prehistoric tribe in "Le Sacre du Printemps" as a quintessentially Russian fable. This clearly contrasts to other cultures such as the Mayan where they never sacrificed their own but always captives from other outsider tribes. Does this explain why the Tsars and Stalin are still so revered and extreme self sacrifice for some nebulous better tomorrow still tolerated? Are Russians the world's last remaining major primitive tribe?
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Yes, MA, wow, you know Baba Yaga! I am impressed. Full name, mind it, Baba-Yaga-Bone-Leg! Awful scary.
A worse thing can be only "...there will come a small grey wolfie,
who will bite you at you side". (so better get asleep NOW!) lulla-bye tra la la la :o)
On chicken legs is her hut, in a deep, deep forest. 1 tooth (no dentistry service there). Long grey hair. Long skirt. Eats little silly children, for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Sniffs air (like a good dog) and declares: "Wow! It smells of human spirit!" (give me my fork, knife, plate and napkin :o) Puts you on a spade - and shoves into her stove. To bake.
(Will you sleep tonight? :o)
The chicken legs' hut is a small wonder, can run, travel, useful caravanning-type home. When you see one caravan like that, you say:
"Chicken-hut, chicken-hut, turn your rear end to the forest - upfront to me!" The house with awful noise and creaks turns around and shows you the door, I mean, shows in the opposite meaning, that you can enter.
To meet Baba Yaga. The woman of your dreams. LOL.
Don't ask me why it's all simply in the old manual to checken-leg huts' management.
And yes, MA, this is all real, no soft versions in Russia, you are right.
Well, the rest of the time Baba Yaga cruises above tree tops in her mortar, looking for the catch. Like a drone!
Awful, all awful.
Of nicer things - have been to the church now, tiny thing nearby, built in our modern city quarters. Walked enormous wide field in total darkness and no roads. Piercing wind, frosty, only small church lights in the barren field in the centre. Didn't notice much difference as compared to Christmas! The pond is still frozen as well as a kind of a channel. But awful dark, no snow, ground dark, no lights reflect as on snow. It is supposed to be spring, LOL.
Walked round the church with the festive procession, then defected and returned back to continue to watch Easter night happenings on TV.
At the moment new Moscow's cathedral broadcasts Gospel reading - BTW was surprised hearing English and German. They explained they read in all languages possible that the clerics happen to have learned by chance, LOL.
It begins with Gospel in medieval Russian (which not a single person in Russia understands - like our whole services :o) - then is translated into modern Russian, English, Polish, German, Spanish, Italian, Chinese and Greek. Sounds and look very nice, long beards, long rich red gowns, kilos of golden embroidery, broadcast from the main Moscow's new cathedral. In St. Petersburg TV channel it's live broadcast from our Kazan cathedral - no English there and looks a tricky complex ceremony, priests are performing a Byzantine time ceremony full of meaningful moments that nobody understands but them, must say. Well, the TV explains along what they do.
Lots of Tchaikovsky and church choirs, all Easter night service is supposed to be sung.
I was supposed to bring Jerusalem fire (delivered by airplanes to Moscow and St. Pete already) home from the church, a candle, but the wind is awful. Some clever people cut plastic lemonade bottles and inserted candles there. I have an old lamp of railway walker a century ago but forgot it at home. So no successful fire delivery.
We'll see tomorrow if they calculated Easter day correct this year.
You never know. Easter Sunday ought to be sunshine. So far - looks, to put it softly, it's not. :o) Supposed to be first Sunda after first full moon after the spring equality day? when night equals day? 23rd March anyway.
Good night.
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For those of you talking about hanging pirates from the yard arm, I think your incorrect. They are supposed to be hung between the high water mark and the sea, with an Admiralty oar present to show that they have jurisdiction.
Mutineers are hung from yard arms.
Of course if they resist we can always lop their heads off and hang them by their hair from the front bow spirit, as Lt. Maynard did Black Beard. Must have worked I don't think the East coast of the US has much of a pirate problem.
As for the worlds bleeding hearts; America's aid will primarily come in the form of of Flechete rounds, .50 Calibere bullets, Intrepid Captains and Crews.
If you love your Pirate son tell him to find better employment.
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pjv
"Must have worked I don't think the East coast of the US has much of a pirate problem."
Oh really? Where do you think all of those bankers and financeers who stole everyone's money and bankrupted the US and ther world were? New York City. It only started in Irvine California. The rest as they say is history.
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politejomsviking, @97
:o)
"In spite of the desperate resistance of NATO and UN, closer to supper time Somali pirates captured Venezuella."
"Russian Navy took hostages a vessel with Somali pirates.
The Governement of Somali is shocked!"
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It would be childs play for any of the world's major navies to deny Somalia access to the sea by burning down the ports, sinking all the vessels and then mining the waters around them. Even punishing one port as an example of what could quickly happen to the rest of them might be a deterrent. It's not a matter of means but of political will. They use so called "International Law" as a cover for their reluctance. Now the US is considering switching from paying extortion to bribery. One more lesson of history not learned that must be repeated.
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MAII Stock brokers are more akin to Highway Robbers, they have to my knowledge no woerking class or nautical connections. That's why the US Navy has never shelled Wall Street.
For most Investment Bankers, Yardarms are too good.
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Web Alice, are you sure the Ship was Venezuelan??? I did not know that there was enough of that country's economy left to put a ship to sea. They are looking very ragged now days. Maybe they just ran out of Fuel and are drifting. Who knows that place has become the land of OZ, complete with big talking head at the front.
I doubt if NATO will do anything, I know the UN will do nothing, I wonder if the US has the political will to do what it's People and Sailors demand, namely, destroy the pirates and other sea vermin on contact.
By the way it's in the Constitution, one of the few duties that the American people gave to the US government was to eradicate piracy. That's what they are supposed to be doing not bailing out Bankers or propping up lame governments in Europe.
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MA @100. Thank you, MA, I will write it down some place in case of Sebastopol-2017, extraterraneous visitors that are frequenting , kind of! the bay as of late, and all. :o)
Will also note what politejomsviking has got to recommend, would be very interested. o:) I see his post but it ain't open for reading pleasure yet.
_______________
Honesty I got such a cold from last Easter night expeditions, that what to do with Somali pirates is not a very high item on my agenda.
And overall, MA, - do they harm you much? :o) Strangely, when I thought about it, LOL, Somali pirates must be the least harm on Earth to me.
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By the way the Pirates business model looks excellent as long as they stay away from US flagged ships. Maybe they should be listed on the New York stock exchange? Contingent on no attacks on US shipping.
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politejoms, :o) those were jokes, local jokes, it was supposed to be not the ship of Venezuella, but the whole of it, LOL.
We haven't spoken lately, so you got unaccumstomed simply to my latest style :o)
Here is one more:
"Somali pirates captured a Russian ship. Russian government entered negotiations about the size of the kick-back. :o)
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Intrigued fighting piracy is in US Constitution, didn't know, would know.
Much else sea-related in it? I've got at home a "Pirate Creed of Ethics" someplace. Ye Captain shall have full command during the time of engagement.. etc. smth. Says how to split the shares and many other useful tips. :o)
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:o)
Crisis... Work productivity grows only with Somali pirates...
Year 2020. Crisis has ended up.
People as well.
Not so scary is the crisis itself as the anti-crisis measures, proving that the crisis exists - and, if it doesn't - then it will surely be!
Crisis. Millions of Russians are torturing themselves with the question:
is there really a crisis or was it invented by powers and bosses, to economize money on them? :o)
(a survey)
- What long-term lasting substantial purchases is your family planning to make in the near future?
- In the near future, of long-term, substantial purchases that our family is planning is the purchase of a China-made plastic transparent lighter, as our matches are ending up.
LOL!
Hurray! Russian government has discovered the first symptoms of the slowering of the fall of economics. And also the second symptoms of the speed-up of the slowering of the fall of economics.
They tried to stop crisis. But he produced a manadate and went further on.
Crisis. A school-boy found a million dollars and brought them to police. His sobbing Mum insisted that she is proud of him very much.
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WebAlice
"Somali pirates must be the least harm on Earth to me."
I see no qualitative difference between what the Somali pirates are doing no and what European colonial Empires used to do. Quantitatively the European empires killed many more people, ran amok all over the entire world, stole far more, and it lasted for centuries. It's how they became rich without working for wealth themselves. Their legacy is that those countries have no cultural history or value for individual enterprise. If it even tries to make an appearance, they tax it into the ground.
"Intrigued fighting piracy is in US Constitution, didn't know"
Alice, you might one day read the US Constitution when you have a spare hour or two. All you'll need is a simple dictionary to help you understand a few words you may not know. You might also try reading the EU Consitution when you have a spare decade or two. I'm afraid having a handy library of the collected wisdom of Talmudic scholars won't help you with it though, it's beyond even their ability to decipher.
pajamaviking, get your own writers, stop stealing my lines.
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"What the pirates must be bemoaning is the lack of any bureaucratic structure to guide their activities"
But this is surely the point: if the US and EU are sincere in their attachment to economic freedom, we should be embracing these successful, unregulated entrepreneurs rather than griping about the odd infraction of some obscure maritime law or other. Instead of fleets we should be sending a high-powered fact-finding mission to find out about the pirates' efficient business organisation and methods. I bet they aren't in debt up to their eyeballs.
"But in the admittedly smaller border region of Pakistan there seems no problem at all picking out individual suspects and sending a missile their way."
Targeting and firing are one thing; hitting the target without wiping out a load of civilians is another. My guess is that this doesn't work off the African coast for the same reason it hasn't worked in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Killed Osama yet? Thought not.
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Web Alice
I believe the Duties of Congress in accordance with the Constitution is to "define and punish piracy". Like most things they are supposed to do, it is done inefficiently.
Web Alice what ever happened to all those Soviet PT boats from the past??? I would think they would be able to handle this problem quite handily.
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Finally a military adversary the French navy might actually be able to beat....untrained teenagers in speedboats.
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(Lord Father forgive them ,they don't know what they do )
Dears, what's row ? some cow away of the rookery ?
Haven't you deemed or evaluated the Iraqi trial ? the gains, or losses ?
We are in lack of harmonic constructive debate ,away from abhor ,
rationalism ,conducting a humanitarian standards
we initially deny any justifications of criminal trespasses and piracy .
now we are living in a global like a small town, whichever country
contracted a cancer tumor this could infect other countries , those nations are our brothers whether in creation or humanity ,we ought to salvage them from the crime swamp , merge them in update modern life ,whatever the price or sacrifice would be . neither tom hook or drones ,we ought to harness our IT to serve nations not to kill them ,be sure there is none been born criminal but the oppression of societies(poverty ,illiteracy, traditions ) converted him , pls read Timothy GNB
love, God blessyou all Aziz Sarhan Iraq /Basra
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(Lord be mercy)
Hi there , arguments are soaring about bony boyish piracy, pirates are condemned , air and marine forces are hunting.
Pardon ladies and gentlemen : what about those sharks, who pirated tens billions of Dollars from Iraq reconstructing program ?
azizon
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politejomsviking wrote:
"For those of you talking about hanging pirates from the yard arm, I think your incorrect. They are supposed to be hung between the high water mark and the sea, with an Admiralty oar present to show that they have jurisdiction."
As it happens, we were talking about droning them. From the heavens, so to speak. Military justice (another fine English tradition) has moved forward since we tortured and killed unregistered tax collectors.
In the current time we drone them. ZAP!
No trial, no witnesses to be called. No judge. No worries, except for the continuing degradation of the rule of law in nuclear powered states.
politejomsviking wrote:
"Mutineers are hung from yard arms. "
Are you listening, MA? You should listen.
I listen. Sometimes the Swiss gnomes call me "the white man who listens".
I also agree with your comments on the respective sizes of constitutions. A big law is a bad law, cause folks don't follow laws that take too long to articulate. They just pay lawyers to get around such laws. And a lawyer can ALWAYS get around a big waffling law.
Now, Alice, with regard to the issue of Christmas and Easter, and which is more important and why:
I do not groove on death cults. I think christians worship a guy who was nailed to a piece of wood because he got involved in temple finances. That doesn't strike me as sensible behaviour. I think a person would be better off learning just about anything except about a guy who got judicially murdered for getting involved in religious banking practices.
Because make no mistake, it was Jesus kicking the money lenders out of the temple that got him killed. This was the thing, the crucial incident, that caused the jewish mafia to call out a contract on the big JC.
A lot of folks don't know that. A lot of folks don't read the GOOD BOOK. Or they would know that. And they would understand why Obama and Brown are giving away all the cash to the bankers. They know the score. They are in the temple, and they can't be kicking moneylenders around.
So we understand this, in the capitalist west, and so we focus on christmas, not easter.
Now with regard this issue of resurrection..... your argument fails on several levels.
First, the whole resurrection thing was old by this time. We already know JC can do the life from the dead trick. He did it with Lazarus already. You remember?
Marry With the Great Hair, whom a lot of folks say was JC's number one street prostitute, on account of her rubbing his feet real nice,... she came running to the big JC one day and she said "Lazarus, WHOM YOU LOVED.... (!) is dying."
So JC, whom Larazus was loved by (!!), went running off to find his body, and then, after much WEEPING for his fallen .... er, comrade.... who he had loved..... (!!!)... the big guy turned him on. He came back from the dead.
Now.... I put it to you.... IF resurrection was such a big deal .... and this is why Ruskis like easter so much.... Why don't you guys have a holiday and celebration for poor Lazarus?
Huh?
It is a good question. Of course, you cannot have a holiday for JC's boyfriend. Not with the weeping and the strange inuendos and so on. It would turn into a gay parade down Red Square. What would Nashi think of that?
Putin would tear a pectoral muscle, out of rage.
No, you ruskis like easter because it is the pagan ritual of spring, and because it is so cold up there. Further south, Christmas marks the winter equinox, after which the days start to get longer and the sun (the sun of god) stays longer each day in the sky.
Ruskis, the ones further north, can't always see the sun die (fall below the horizon) and then rise again three days later (start to move above the horizon), because the curve of the earth and the northerly latitude mean this fall and rise with the equinox is obscured by the more than three days of permanent winter night.
So you go with the spring festival, instead.
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111. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Finally a military adversary the French navy might actually be able to beat....untrained teenagers in speedboats."
Marcus, as ever your selective memory of history deludes you.
Without French ships your beloved USA would never have gained independence from Britain, and then again in 1812 would have been in big trouble.
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Romestew;
That was then, this is now. Britain could not handle the Iranian speedboats that kidnapped 15 of their crewmembers in broad daylight in international waters without the British firing a single shot in their defense. And to these people we are selling a Trident nuclear submarine? We should have our heads examined. Don't be surprised if one day it winds up in North Korean hands....comandeered by three men in a rowboat. France is even more pathetic. How lucky we were not to have them meddle in Iraq. They can't even handle the Ivory Coast, one of their former colonies. They're lucky there aren't more of them in Afghanistan or you'd hear about them getting their heads blown off every other day. The NATO alliance, what a joke.
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#116 ah anecdote number 8 - 'Iranian Speedboats', seems to be getting a lot of use of late.
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If the West is unwilling to police these waters, they should extend aid to the Russians to do it for them.
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democracythreat, @114 you may be right (in that we prefer Easter over Christmas) as it is the "pagan ritual of spring". Sunshine/not on Easter Sunday is one working parameter to check Easter "success".
There are 2 parameters, basically. 1./Will the divine fire got lit up by itself in Jerusalem, in that Christ coffin church 2./Will there be sun on Easter Sunday.
In the church there is a traditional Arab commission, for centuries, to check that Orthodox Christians didn't spill, put, clip or whatever, that there is nothing inflammable in that stone chamber where fire is supposed to light up, they seal it up, kind of check, and are our "evidence" that it happens by itself. A successful example of Orthodox Christians + Arabs co-operation. LOL.
With sun - you should have seen main TV channel post last Sunday weaving wriggling and explaining. Snow rain and storm in Moscow. Chief meteo bureau forecaster called to studio and interrogated. "Is it common to have gloomy skies on Easter Sunday"? (required politically-correct answer "Oh sure no problem. Don't worry yourself Russia.")
But the meteo forecaster valued left-overs of his reputation (not much of forecast reputation they have anyway) and couldn't say what TV wanted from him (a lie).
"Let's carefully say - it is not so extraordinary rare event" :o)
Because it is. You simply can't have rain on Easter Sunday. And Moscow had snow. One or the other - either church powers got the date wrong this year, human error in Easter day figuring out, or gloomy year ahead problems and worries. Neither option liked by TV therefore they pressed the poor meteo man, "say it's ordinary".
Well. In St. Petersburg we had - blue cloudless skies. :o) By miracle - storm the night before, storm the night after.
those muscovites can never get anything correct :o)
So on pagan expectations as you figured out already - we do quite fine. :o)
I think MAvrelius also recently wondered, "are Russians the last remaining primitive tribe on Earth?" :o)
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And another pagan thing characterising Russian Easter is the tradition to go to cemeteries to visit relatives on Easter Sunday. Church speaks on TV with soft warnings for years "Easter -it's not about dead. It's the other way around, dear Russians. This is very un-Russian Orthodox to go to cemeteries on Easter Sunday. If you can restrain yourself - please don't."
All agree wholeheartily. And half the country goes anyway. :o)
There, check out what people do: you bring that boiled and painted egg, and cut it open, and put on the grave. You un-dig from the ground, slightly peppered with earth a small chrystal glass for vodka - that, basically, every Russiam grave is eternally equipped with :o) - and fill it in from the vodka bottle you brought with! You purely symbolically pour yourself a glass - and drink vodka yourself - together with your dead. Sometimes you put a piece of black bread over that vodka filled glass on the grave. Cover it, don't know why. You lit a candle, and dig it into the ground, standing, nearby that vodka glass.
Anyone of foreigners who ever saw the procedure - describe it unequivocally : "Russans have a picknic on the grave!" Just read impressions of one German who happened to be there and was invited over and joined the company. First he thought all are mad then he got the angle. Birds - divine God's creatures will eat up the eggs, vodka will vapour out itself, people are remembered, stress easied, many advantages.
You can imagine what Russian church thinks about it. "A good service, to remember, ordered in the church, on Easter Sunday, to pray for the soul - that is the best taking care there is of the sould of your dead ones."
Who'd doubt.
Still. If I think about my father. What would he prefer. "A good service, ordered in the church, for his soul.. etc." - or a glass of vodka?! In that other world. He'd probably won't understand it, if his daughter spared a glass of vodka, you know, for the dad who died. I think there can't be two opinions about it.
The consensus here is that one doesn't exclude the other.
So I guess we kind of are. The last major Christian-pagan tribe. :o)
_________
"A pagan is an ignoramus that has the stupidity to worship something that can be seen and touched." :o)
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Hope all will be glad to know that there is a new way to fight off Somali pirates when they try to board your ship. Great surprise pirates don't like water!
Yesterday a new Greek ship was being delivered from builders forgot where by a Russian crew. They were all alarmed the ship will be grabbed even before delivered so watched out. And a black ship came near from which towards them there speeded up a white boat. Well, even if they wouldn't be scared enough to watch out - they'd know anyway these are pirates because they began shooting at them with grenades.
When pirates came side to side and took out aluminum kind of foldable staircase there wasn't much to lose at this point, so the crew directed at them all anti-fire kind of? tubes? where water is pumped through at pressure. These tubes present at every ship I hope work at 30 metres distance. But 30 metres were not needed they plain watered them direct at pressure. Pirates nicely tumbled down and were simply like - washed away! Then they collected themselves and began to chase them again, but the ship increased speed and began ? kind of moving in zig-zag, sort of dancing, not allowing pirates to board. And pumped more water at them when they came close. Pirates shot back but sailors say it is definitely impossible for them to take aim, because their boats however speedy are low in the water, they have to look up to any ship deck, and when the ship skips and turns around taking aim like forget about it.
And they left them!
Now, Russians knew the watering trick from last year experience, our Navy cadets were doing the same in Bab-elMandeb strait, and cadets had 8 anti-fire tubes directed at pirates, because their ship is wooden, fregate Pallada, full sails like in the 18th century, huge ship consisting of sails and wood all burns in a sec if anything. That water works was known but now it's tried twice.
Pallada fregate also said they were ready with ? line-shooting pneumatic kind of cannons, for urgent anchoring someplace, for emergencies, there are those line-shooting cannons. Not good as a normal cannon, but stil - it shoots mighty, at 400 metres!
They say the idea is the same that police uses washing away protests at places. And that police water cannons would be even better on ships, because ship ones "shoot" at 30 metres, and standard police ones - at 60 metres.
They say even 30 metres water cannons at sea will kick out any person and drown as sea water is heavier in weight than fresh water than police uses, so the kick is heavier at sea.
So, in the lack of normal armament as prohibited on civil vessels, water tubes proved working.
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Imagine pirates who "don't like water". :o)
May be, they cannot swim, either?
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Of good news we caught today 30 pirates. But don't know what to do with them, the bad thing. They are on board "Admiral something", new shift ship on patrol there, who just took over the previous "Admiral Vinogradov" ship. Navy say they can't patrol with 30 pirates on board, they feel strange together with them, and the road back home is too long. They just began their shift.
Option to pass them over to Somali powers is silly, as they'll be back in a week at work again.
There is a thought to pass them over to the US ship nearby, but USA kind of has a heavy hand with pirates, looks a bit too radical a solution. :o)
Other countries' Navy vessels in patrol there are not over enthusiastic about picking up Russian catch either.
Well, may be our pirates then will bobble the next 2 months on board "Admiral etc."... can be morally kind of? spiritually? re-trained? and re-convinced? :o)
TV says if the Navy will eventually bring them home to Russia, there is a prizon term 10-15 years for piracy at sea. (10 or 15 - up to judge)
But that the previous 10-15 years the prosecution will be collecting evidence and formalising papers, to be able to bring up the case to court. Nobody even remembers when this criminal law article was applied lately.
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