Czech dinner snub
Prague 1700
President Obama has declined the invatation of dinner with President Klaus in Prague Castle. When I met the Czech president some time ago he was charming but I can understand that a tete-a-tete with Michelle might be more appealing. The First Lady and her husband will be eating modern Czech cuisine in a romantic top restaurant. I don't know what the Czech head of state will be doing but it's clear his lack of belief in climate change, and support for President Bush doesn't go down well at the new White House. I promise something more substantial before the end of the tour but my laptop has gone to a better place and my thumbs ache from typing on a fat phone.
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I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~34~RS~)
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When is a snub not a snub ?
When someone has a list of priorities, and someone else does not feature at the top of the list, it's only natural that the former declines an invitation from the latter.
On the personal side it seems that Old Bushy and President Klaus had very similar views on "green" issues. Also anyone who did not like George Bush would seem to be a well-balanced guy with sound judgement.
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Pres Obama won't be separated from his Blackberry. Or do the Beeb not allow such things? Bon weekend!
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If you are the recently inaugurated incompetent President of the United States and you are going to make new enemies, it pays to start out small. Perhaps if Klaus had appeared to secretly be building nuclear weapons and threatened the existance of the US and Israel the way Mad-man Ahmadinejad did, he'd have gotten an audience with the Oba-maniac like Iran's President will. But he made the mistake of disagreeing about global warming and agreeing to allowing the US to install radar for a missile defense shield against Iran's ICBMs on Czech territory. That's what happens when you are not politically correct in the eyes of a blithering idiot who now is at the helm of the most powerful ship of state in the world (even if it is taking on water and listing to one side just now.) Wait until Europe's big cheeses don't dance to his tune. All that hoopla we just heard in London will go right out the window. This guy is even more dangerous than the last one. Three years in the Senate and half of that campaigning to become president. The community organizer who was the editor of the Harvard Law Review magazine. What more qualifications do you need to be President of the United States. But then where's the surprise when a guy who was a bodybuilder and acted in some popular movies can become governor of its most populous state.
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Obama could have listen to what the Czech president had to say. Nobody is ever totally wrong or totally right, and you can never make someone change his mind by insulting him.
He did not just snub the president, he snubbed all Czech people, since the president of any country represents his people. It never pays to be rude.
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I'm sure Klaus is relieved not to have to entertain the Messiah and his elegant wife and make small talk about things he (quite sensibly) does not believe in.
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Oh great, the leader of the free world visits a country and subs its leader. I see US Foreign policy has not improved much since last year.... Bam Bam is too busy or what? You can't seriously tell me he loved Brown that much and dislikes Klaus equally? He has visited and dined with all other heads of state in the countries he visited so far. I would say this is worse than Michelle putting her arm around QEII's back
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Mark,
as you know these organised snubs by the eiltes for mass consumption are naive.. as the one with Merkel waiting for Berlusconi... you can cleearly see that he was not talking on phone, as well as the excusse he was talking to turkish leader.. do they really think people are so naive.. that they can create the impression in people that they are just like us.. they are not, and they never go out of they glass castle and meet people.. when was last time they were among people.??
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This is an error - a diplomatic faux-pas.
The Czechs are currently occupying the EU president role so this is a major snub, and undermines all that he claims his international background has taught him. The trouble with dismissing the previous administration lock, stock and barrel is that there's nobody left to advise on these matters. Sir Humphrey (or even his successors) would never have let it happen.
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Why has the moderator just called me a "new member" when I have been making comments on Mark's blogs for the best part of two years?
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#9 ClaphamBusman
I think the BBC works on the same basis as the small town I live in. Unless your granny was born here, you will always be classed as an "incomer". Your grandchildren will probably be considered as members.
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If anyone had a list in front of them of what the Czech President has said in the past, believes now, or wishes for the future, not only would the US President decline, so would any rational, balanced citizen of the Universe. Trying to be absolutely politically-correct here - the guy is clean cuckoo.
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#11 robzaba
"the guy is clean cuckoo." - but Obama met with Gordon Brown.
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MAvrelius, @3
if this will console you in any way, some of US authorities are managing diplomacy better. One of US army top officials has just now visited Georgia and the lavish reception in kisses and embraces is all over my screen.
There was a dinner, and your army chap made an excellent speech.
"The beauty of the Georgian capital Tchiba-isi is known all over the world. Presedent Shishka-shvili would agree with me", a smile left.
:o)
I am afraid that's a nick name from now on.
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And, MA, are you sure you are not mixing up Miroslav Topolyanek and Vaclav Klaus? I mean, of them two Topolanek was fighting for your missile shield. Has made it through - and then US took a pause.
Vaclav Klaus simply called your shield off from the Czech Parliament voting.
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The only reason O'Bama's in Prague is because the (the soon to be ousted ) PM is the EU president. The Czech president and PM both vocally lambasted O'Bama's stimulas package in the US ..."the road to hell".. Is it a snub, YOU BET IT IS, and the Czech people have been humiliated by their own leaders... in this day an age, it is very dumb to be in George Bush's hip pocket.
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Maybe the big O sees a future working with Medvedev? Stranger things have happened. If Europe wont commit troops in the ghan, Russia can and will. Jobs are scarce.
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Mark, and everyone else..
while our leaders and the media play snubs at the public in order to atract attention from the mess.. this is what happens
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7983894.stm
People also are 'playing' REAL snubs and these are the dangers that our leader and media are in denial. How can anyone protect from this?
There will be a total break down in the society, if these leaders continue this way.. dont listen, dont watch, dont speak.. but bad for our leaders.. it will hunt them.
They have 24/7 protection, but who pays are the people...... the elites will bear great responsibility for this mess they have done, i dont know how they can still keep those positions, when everyday there are inocent people paying the price.. the elites have blood in their hands.. and they dont care.. they are the vampires.. their power position is more important than people. Shame on them if there is any shame left on them.
People, you are on your own.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
they can keep forming even more gost international institutions, they can bail out the incompetent bankers and corporations, they can spent time discussing the abstract EU constitution, NATO future, create 100 of senseless NGO's and agencies, etc etc.. we can make a lot of paper work, create imaginative structures not usefull to people by employing incompetent elites..
great achievments..
is it what we want?
is it what people want?
what we really want?
i think is the above, thats why we are here where we are today, in this system and this stage of development where we cannot achieve peace, happyness, and love.
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At 6:15pm on 04 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
If you are the recently inaugurated incompetent President of the United States and you are going to make new enemies, it pays to start out small. Perhaps if Klaus had appeared to secretly be building nuclear weapons and threatened the existance of the US and Israel the way Mad-man Ahmadinejad did, he'd have gotten an audience with the Oba-maniac like Iran's President will. But he made the mistake of disagreeing about global warming and agreeing to allowing the US to install radar for a missile defense shield against Iran's ICBMs on Czech territory. That's what happens when you are not politically correct in the eyes of a blithering idiot who now is at the helm of the most powerful ship of state in the world (even if it is taking on water and listing to one side just now.) Wait until Europe's big cheeses don't dance to his tune. All that hoopla we just heard in London will go right out the window. This guy is even more dangerous than the last one. Three years in the Senate and half of that campaigning to become president. The community organizer who was the editor of the Harvard Law Review magazine. What more qualifications do you need to be President of the United States. But then where's the surprise when a guy who was a bodybuilder and acted in some popular movies can become governor of its most populous state.
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It's obvious by the way you're writing English that you are uneducated but at least you should show some decency to just shut up. You must American because this is the only country in the world where an idiot and insanely ignorant like you can have the nerves to call someone who graduated summa cum laude from one of the most prestigious school in the world and who had taught law for 10 years at the University of Chicago(also a very prestigious school) an incompetent. It reminds me that American conservative commentator named Sean Hannity who got kicked out NYU because he couldn't an essay properly in his first college year and that loser has the same comment about Obama or Sarah Palin who got kicked out of 5 universities in 6 years. Only in America indeed.
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# 20
don't make me laugh.. like EU is better!!..
the pro-EU elites dont know to tie their shoes :)
you can get your diploma like the FED buys its own gov. debt.
but that doesnot make you clever.. but you are fooling yourself first.
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Off topic, but perhaps someone can explain why the new format blogs are being closed for new comments.
On the 2-3 latest threads on Nick Robinson's blogs comment were curtailed after a short while - or not allowed at all.
What's going on? Is the BBC trying to censor something?
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Allamericand,
you're new at this bunch of blogs habitat and therefore un-accustomed to MAII style. You are wrong about MAII; he simply looks for perfection. And speaks strong language when doesn't find it. As perfection is a rare product these days, LOL....
If you think he is way too critical of his own USA - it only seems to you, LOL. You simply haven't heard his language about the EU.
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Ziggyauflauenburg,
how can one be simultaneously "duped by neo-cons, so feel now totally at a loss" and "miss big Russian brother occupation".
As a Russian I thought neo-cons exactly don't like us in any format - past or present.
It's a very fine thought of yours that I can't catch the idea of.
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I think both #4 and #8 are right in pointing out that the meeting should have taken place, if only, perhaps, for President Obama to set out his differences.
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The Czech head of state does not only have archaic views on climate change his views of how to solve the finance crisis simply boiled down to leave it alone it will solve itself. The markets know best, don't interfere is a bit archaic as well, if the markets knew best, then there would not a crisis in the first place. So, good for Obama, he can have a good meal somewhere else and avoid intigestion from "re-heated" advice from the Czech head of state. @ 4, I doubt it is a snub to the entire Czech nation, can you rethink the percentage maybe?:-)
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And can anyone explain me, please, why Topolanek is the head of the EU (this half a year duration)? Isn't it Klaus?
Why in the Czech Republic it is their Prime Minister (Topolyanek) and in the previous EU country of presidency it was French President Sarkozy.
I mean, a president of the country in one case, and a prime minister of the country - in the next case.
I thought, if the Czech republic parliament expressed un-trust to their cabinet of ministers (headed by Topolyanek), and voted for them to go, by majority of votes - it is kind of the idea of the Czech people. That they don't like their cabinet of ministers.
So what? A cabinet of ministers can be put together anew.
Klaus is there to stay, he was just re-elected in Feb 2008 for a five-year president term.
It does happen that Presidents have to obtain new ministers. In fact happens all the time.
Bad timing of course for the EU, in terms of EU would be better if those changes in the top in the Czech Republic took place any time before, or any time after Czech Republic presidency.
But still doesn't look a disaster?
As I understood it, the un-trust expressed by the Czech parliament to Topolyanek is not President Klaus hands' making. He didn't ask Topolyanek to abdicate, to the opposite - it was kind of taken for granted you can't fire Topolyanek while the Czech Republic holds the EU presidency. All kind of thought he will serve as min till July - the end of the country's presidency in the EU.
And then Topolanek - hop! himself writes a paper about his abdication. Making it difficult for the EU.
Says things about "road to hell", making it difficult for the Czech and EU relations with the USA.
Kind of slams the door, I'd say. Something made him very un-happy.
And still he is now "an Acting Czech PM", as a new one isn't found.
At that, even that Klaus appointed him for the PM position initially earlier himself - I dare say he is annoyed by Topolanek by now. Not on best relations. He made it difficult for him, on "departure" - both with the EU and with the USA. What a knot.
I heard Czech parliament opposition against the ruling Topolyanek block made 2 claims to Topolyanek cabinet of ministers. A./ inactivity in the crisis situation, un-happiness with economy during the crisis B./ US equipment on Czech land, of which Topolyanek and his cabinet of ministers were strong proponents. Given that hardly anyone these days in the world is happy with the way their governments manage the crisis - what's wonder so much prticularly that in the Czech Republic some parliament opposition was un-happy with economy as well? Not a very out-standing, un-ordinary thing, all usual.
Pressing US equipment against 70% of Czechs who were against in polls, was of course, rich, by Topolyanek, but also nothing extraordinary.
In Ukraine only 4% want NATO, so what, who asks them? Powers decide.
And that Topolyanek heartily described US ways as road to hell, also understandable. He made huge effort to get companions in the deal to get US armament to the Czech, worked himself out on pursuing it internally, and then - hop - USA take time out, become friendly suddenly with Russia, and it looks like not exactly wishing to introduce into life the old Bush's ideas.
Surely Topolanek got angry with this US turn of direction. I think got offended, that worked hard towards it, and suddenly USA don't need it. That's why "road to hell" talk, must simply feel US predated him.
But why Obama would wish to settle some "scores" with Vaclav Klaus, is beyond me. Is his "guilt" that he allowed himself to have a PM who (even on departure) uses expressions like "road to hell". ?
Klaus didn't fight for US shield, but didn't fight against either.
If he took the issue off Czech Parliament voting - it was only because he was afraid to receive any result. Parliament says "yes" - USA says "thanks, we don't actually want it. but thanks anyway".
The Czech powers, all combined, would look like idiots after that.
Parliament says "no" - then it is settled, final, try to over-turn the parliament ruling, if/when USA would still go for it. Only an obstacle.
So I think Klaus played very cleverly, in this suspended in the air missile situation. If USA comes back to thwe idea - then he'll put it on the vote. Why to run ahead of the locomotive, on the rails.
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Zigzag
"Polish, Czech or other easterners are dinosaurs"
Your government has wedded and welded your fate to theirs. Your banks now have their liabilities on their books now and they are on the verge of making your frightful economic predicament an order of magnitude or two worse. Why did they do that? Because along with France, they wanted the EU to look like an even bigger fish facing down the US. Nice gambit. Want to take on the rest of the shattered former Soviet empire too? How about Belarus or Tadjikistan?
Allamericand
You make the same mistake so many others do. You must be a flunky manager somewhere. You are impressed by credentials. They don't add up to a row of beans. I remind you that the people who crashed the entire economy of the world had the most impressive credentials from the most impressive Business schools in the world too. And look at how they performed. This is the stupidity and arrogance of the recent generation that was too lazy and incompetent to understand the difference between the knowledge real life experience brings and the illusion of knowing anything at all that a piece of paper that says someone passed enough courses to get it confers. Education is very important but so is life experience, there is no substitute for it. Obama was unfit to be a US Senator let alone President. His smooth talk won't make up for his lack of knowledge and experience just as Arnold Schwartznegger's enthusiasm hasn't made up for his. Celebrity and chrisma are the delusion that makes you think these people have merit when in fact there is nothing behind their masks. Hollywood and the internet are not the real world.
Obama showed what he could do in London. His training as a lawyer gave him the skill to invent weasel words regarding tax havens for the final communique so vague and meaningless that China and France could both agree to them. Now let's see him solve a real problem. He can only play the Tony Blair card (it was the party opposite that created the terrible problems of the nation, that's why I haven't been able to fix them yet) for so long. Blair might have gotten away with that kind of claptrap for ten years in Britain but a year from now, Obama will have his name stamped all over the depression if he can't fix it.
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Obama is nothing more than a copy of a 'Jesus' type and a 'Mother Teresa' version.
Jesus fooled the world, and noone even knows it. I am talking about his 'Father' thing.
While Mother Teresa showed the world the horror to come, and the powerless to change it. What does Obama has more than her?
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Obama will sit and talk with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who said he wants a world without America but not with the leader of the Czech Republic, a nation we were on friendly terms with up until today. What does that tell you about the real Barack Obama, the one not on TV or the internet? What a fool. In Obama we've gotten what we deserve...Hollywood comes to Washington, the triumph of the feel good factor over real leadership.
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Well done Marcy! I got through your comment #28 without laughing, and actually agree with you assessment of Blair (this does however reinforce the strong possibility that you live in the Home Counties somewhere, not New York State).
Of course you're wrong in comment #30 - it's so blatantly obvious why Obama should be talking Mr Ahmadinejad. As for your thoughts on the importance of life experience, well, shock, yes you're right again. I only hope you're not confusing the genuine gathering of experiences, learning from mistakes, seeing all sides of the argument etc. with your own brand of stereotypes, historical revisions, hatred and tired examples from your own life.
As for Obama, well it does seem rude for a head of state to visit a country and not accept a dinner invitation from its head of state.
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OK, people, first of all, Klaus is NOT the political leader of CR. He's the president. It's a ceremonial title (like the Queen). He doesn't make policy.
Second of all, the vast majority of Czechs can't stand Klaus. So they will applaud Obama for refusing to meet him.
And thirdly, the biggest worry in this blog is that the Obamas will be eating "modern Czech cuisine". I really, really hope they're going to one of Sanjeev Suri's restaurants. Or having lots and lots of Staropramen or Radegast before hand (and good Moravian wine during --or perhaps some dark red Bohemia sekt) :-/
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Mark:
Wrong choice of words...It is a Diplomatic Faux Pas and it could also be looked at as a snub...
-Dennis Junior
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fattddaddy wrote:
"... and the Czech people have been humiliated by their own leaders..."
I don't feel humiliated. Might have something to do with the fact I don't pay much attention to Obama and that I am not deifing him like most people do. He's just another US president, why should I care if he doesn't have a dinner with Klaus? I would turn him down too if he invited me.
I think the journalists are just looking for scandals where there are none. Let's focus on important things, okay?
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That Obama does not do more than protocol dictates, can be seen as a snub to the two politicians in question but they brought that on themselves, or to be exact Klaus brought that on Topolanek.
It is definitely not seen as a snub on the Czech people. I am here in Prague waiting for Obama's speech, the only public one in Europe.
That he later prefers spending time with Havel is an indication that like him Klaus and possibly Topolanek are becoming former politicians.
More inexcusable is it that the Topolanek invitation was for a beer on a Czech hospoda (pub). I believe Obama is the first American President that has not been drinking beer here.
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ZiggyaufLauenburg wrote:
I can clearly see mentality of "MarcusAureliusIIs" prevails in Eastern Europe, which can't find ways out of post Soviet times. Polish, Czech or other easterners are dinosaurs relevant to Machiavellian Cheneys of the United States. Those Europe easterners are lacking maturity, eloquence and vision. They were duped by neo-cons and now they feel totally at loss. No wonder Klaus makes such embarrassing of the wall statements. President Obama is right to devote his time to quality time that of intellect and class rather than wasting his valuable time to a man elected by duped Czechs! I guess they miss "big Russian brother's" 1967 occupation!
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I must say I find the above post very offensive, ignorant and full of misconceptions and thinly veiled bigotry.
"Eastern Europe, which can't find ways out of post Soviet times"
Misconception number one - we're not Eastern Europe anymore. Why the Westerners can't get rid of Cold War terminology 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, that's beyond me. Perhaps we're not they only "dinosaurs" walking around?
For your information, Czechs, Poles, Slovaks and Hungarians think of themselves as "Central Europe".
Misconception number two - Soviet times are long gone. Czech Republic is now a modern and prosperous European country - EU, NATO and ESA member. It's not us who keeps bringing up "good old times" of Cold War all the time.
"Those Europe easterners are lacking maturity, eloquence and vision."
Sure we do... so, because we are not prepapred to take part in another round of appeasement at our expense, this time towards Russia, we are lacking "maturity". How preposterous is that?
"They were duped by neo-cons and now they feel totally at loss."
Nobody was "duped" by anyone. We've never been American puppets, like many ignorants in Western Europe like to generalize. Just because our government decided to host a defensive US missile defense system which was offered to us by the US administration, it doesn't mean we've supported Bush's other policies.
"...wasting his valuable time to a man elected by duped Czechs! I guess they miss "big Russian brother's" 1967 occupation!"
Well...
First, Klaus wasn't elected by Czech voters - Czech presidents are chosen by the Parliament.
Second, Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968, not 1967.
Next time get your facts right before you try to ridicule someone.
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Not a really nice thing to do for a new man with new ideas at the White House. he shook hands with the Chinese so he can dine with the Czechs.
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@Vicotr_D: excellent post!
Why didn't Obama want to meet Klaus for supper? Probably because his wife didn't want to hug with Klaus who is a Republican in his views and pro-Moscow to boot. Other than that the man is in a symbolic role only as its the PM who holds executive power and currently there, there is an interregnum. I'm watching the transmission from Prague on Polish TV: Obama has a BIG,BIG crowd of locals out there clapping and cheering!.
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I don't understand why Czechs get so angry about being called "Eastern Europeans". This is just a geographical terminolgy using only two parametres: West and East.
And if we would introduce "cultural" parametres in Europe, are not Czechs Slavic people as Russians or Ukrainians?
Can anyone imagine Switzerland or Austria getting upset because they are called "Western" Europeans instead of "Central" Europeans?
Forget historic connotations. What's wrong on using West and East to talk about a continent?
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betuli wrote:
"I don't understand why Czechs get so angry about being called "Eastern Europeans". This is just a geographical terminolgy using only two parametres: West and East."
Geographically, the center of Europe is somewhere in eastern Poland, Slovakia or Belarus. "Eastern Europe" is a Cold War term, which had never been used for Czechoslovakia until it became a part of the Soviet bloc. We've historically been a Central European country, part of Mitteleuropa or whatever you want to call it. Telling us that we're Eastern Europeans is about as polite as telling the Germans that they're still the "Third Reich". It reminds us of the 40 years of captivity inside the Soviet bloc.
"And if we would introduce "cultural" parametres in Europe, are not Czechs Slavic people as Russians or Ukrainians?"
Czechs, Slovaks and Poles are West Slavs, which are quite different from East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians) or South Slavs (Slovenians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians etc). Czech culture is much closer to that of Germany or Austria; anybody who spent some time here can testify to that.
See, this is just another thing I find mildly offensive: "you Slavs are all the same, right?" Oh sure. English are Anglo-Saxons, therefore a part of the Germanic family of nations - so I suppose they're the same as the Germans or Swedes, right? And Italians are the same as Spanish or French, aren't they? See, this is nothing but a prejudice based on lack of information.
"Forget historic connotations. What's wrong on using West and East to talk about a continent?"
It makes no sense. It only made sense in a bipolar, Cold War world. What sense does it make to divide Europe into two camps according to political divisions that no longer exist? None whatsoever.
We're geographically, culturally and politically part of region called Central Europe. When people call us Eastern European, it seems like they were putting us back into the times of Cold War, which is quite uncomfortable. We don't belong there anymore.
If you want to use Eastern Europe as a purely geographical term, use it for Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.
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#36 - Victor_D
You will get used to Marcus. He is all huff and puff which is driven by a hatred of all things European. Today, he just chose to single out the east for punishment. Those of us who live here know it is complete rubbish and when he is in destructive mode, I simply don't bother to debate with him any more.
As to the Klaus snub, I doubt if it's personal. He is, after all, head of state, not head of government and of marginal importance politically speaking. Obama has bet a lot of political capital on his relationships with the EU generally and with Sarkosy, Merkel and Brown especially. The last thing he needs is to be seen hobnobbing with eurosceptic tendency. There is no comparison between Klaus and Ahmadinejad. He has to engage with the latter to progress his foreign policy. Klaus is nowhere in the great scheme of things.
#39 - betuli
Not that is matters much but here in Budapest, we are about 3 hours flying time from London, St.Petersburg and Tel Aviv. You don't get mush more central than that. I would define eastern Europe as Ukraine, Belorussia, Modova and Russia west of the Urals.
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Victor,
As a Spaniard, I don't have any problem to be put in whichever political, cultural or geographical label: call me Latin, Mediterranean, South Western European, South European,... and, indeed, we do feel to belong to the same cultural family alongside French, Italians or Portuguese, including Wallons or French Suiss: we call it the Latin Arch.
You pick up historical facts according to your taste: you remind us the Czechs belonged to Mitteleuropa, which is absolutely true, but you reject to remind the more recent history which is the socalled Eastern Bloc.
You are right that the central geographical point of Europe should be somewhere between Belarus and Poland. But If the media use the terms East and West for language-economic reasons, they cannot leave only Ukraine, Russia and Belarus in one side, and the rest of forty something nations on the other: it would be a bit unbalanced, don't you think?
Before the Berlin Wall fall, we used to call "Central Europe" countries like Switzerland, Austria, Germany or even the Benelux. Nowadays it seems the concept "Central Europe" is not very useful to designate any group of countries with a strong link in common.
Last but not least, I've never taken the term "Eastern Europe" with a negative connotation. West, Southwest or East Slavic are all they Slavic, aren't they?
Of course, if you want to be considered only Central European, yo've got all the right to do so, but you cannot get upset on how the others name you as long as it is a respectable adjective: Eastern.
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Threnodio,
Central Europe could be a very appropiate term when talking about tourism, since you can feel there is a "Mitteleuropa spirit", specially in the architecture and the landscape.
However, in political issues, "Central Europe" is not very helpful. Also the media try to simplfy parametres, so East and West seem quite successful when reporting on European current affairs.
I am afraid, and correct me if I am wrong, there's an obsession from some "West Slavic" countries to be distinguished from their "brothers" in the East. BTW, I know Hungary is an island in a Slavic sea.
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betuli wrote:
"As a Spaniard, I don't have any problem to be put in whichever political, cultural or geographical label: call me Latin, Mediterranean, South Western European, South European,"
The difference is that neither of these terms has vastly negative connotations. For us, Eastern Europe = Communist Bloc -> Soviet occupation -> 40 years of oppression we didn't deserve or ask for. Being reminded of the fact that other Europeans still see us as "the Easterners" or "those who were left behind" is very uncomfortable and saddening.
"You pick up historical facts according to your taste: you remind us the Czechs belonged to Mitteleuropa, which is absolutely true, but you reject to remind the more recent history which is the socalled Eastern Bloc."
Forgive me for thinking that the 1000 years of our pre-communist history are more important for our cultural identity than the 40 years of Soviet domination.
"... they cannot leave only Ukraine, Russia and Belarus in one side, and the rest of forty something nations on the other: it would be a bit unbalanced, don't you think?"
Another reason to scrap the old West-East division. It doesn't work, it is useless to describe present-day Europe. Present-day Czech Republic is a member of the EU and NATO, it's economically on par with some old EU members, ahead of Portugal even. Politically, economically, culturally and geographically we're closer to Germany than we are to Russia - so why, pray tell, are we being constantly lumped together with Eastern Europe?
My personal observation is that this misconception is common mostly in English-speaking countries.
"Last but not least, I've never taken the term "Eastern Europe" with a negative connotation. West, Southwest or East Slavic are all they Slavic, aren't they?"
Oh please. West Slavs have very little in common with East Slavs except some language similarities. You can hardly justify "Eastern Europe" by ethnic arguments.
"Of course, if you want to be considered only Central European, yo've got all the right to do so, but you cannot get upset on how the others name you as long as it is a respectable adjective: Eastern."
When I look at the map of Europe, I clearly see Central Europe as the group of countries surrounding the Czech Republic. It is an useful term to describe historical and cultural connections that these countries have with each other. When somebody tells me I am "Eastern European", I can take it either as a sign of ignorance or as an offense. I surely don't consider myself to be Eastern European.
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About one of our bloggers.
How dares anyone call himself MarcusAureliusII and write such partial, partisan, hateful and overall stupid comments? The works of Marcus Aurelius "I" were about wisdom, balance, tolerance, patience. Blogs are so often an output for personnal frustrations.
lol
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Victor,
Come on! Don't tell me terms such "Latin" or "Southern European" have not had negative connotations among the English-spaeker world and North-western Europeans! But you know what? I do not care at all. I am what I am, and that is it. And believe me, forget this controversy: I live in England and the press here insist in labelling your country as "Eastern European", in my opinion with no malice.
Also, tell me: where is the common political link between two "Central" European countries like yours and Germany? As far as we know, you are in the antipodes: the one represents an ever closer EU; the other has acted so far in the opposite direction.
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All this said, I cannot help but muse how Czech and Czechoslovak politicians have been behind their time in recent history.
Arguably this goes back to the interwar period, when they clung to democracy at a time when vicious totalitarianism was all the rage, but I was thinking about the moribund Czechoslovak Communist Party at the end of the 1980s. It took active destabilisation by Gorbachev, the one they claimed loyalty to, to dislodge this old guard.
Recently Klaus and also Topolanek have reminded me of them, wooden-headedly and nostalgically professing loyalty to an Ancien Regime that by now has gone. However, not accepting a dinner and beer invitation respectively is not to destabilise the Czech government Gorbachev style, in any case the current crop of politicians manage to do that well enough by themselves.
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P78
I wouldn't want you to think this is mere unfounded prejudice against Barack Obama. I found all of his opponents in last year's campaign including his Republican rival in the election equally unsuitable to hold the office of President of the United States although for entirely different reasons. That's why I voted NO! It wouldn't surprise me if a year or two from now, those who disparaged President Bush are as angry and frustrated with Obama as they were with him. Style and charisma which Obama often displays in abundance (but not in his fumbling town meeting in Paris this week) are no substitute for substance, the lack of which is among his fatal flaws.
"Blogs are so often an output for personnal frustrations."
Mine are merely observations....based on a lifetime experience. And I did have a fine education contrary to what Allamericand suggested in #20. That in part is why I have the analytical skills to assess the facts and not be blinded by charisma. In general charismatic people usually make very poor leaders. Kennedy was a prime example. His weakness almost led to World War III in October of 1962
betuli
"I don't understand why Czechs get so angry about being called "Eastern Europeans"."
It's a matter of self image, a characteristic of false pride all Europeans suffer from to one degree or another. They don't want to be lumped in with people they see as inferior to themselves like Ukranians or Belarussians. It's a matter of a facade that hides a complete lack of substance. That is why Europeans like Obama so much. He suffers the same flaw.
Tacamo
"Not a really nice thing to do for a new man with new ideas at the White House. he shook hands with the Chinese so he can dine with the Czechs."
Obama has no new ideas. His ideas are the same old ones Democrats have had for decades only recycled and repackaged in new wrapping paper and a ribbon. Clearly he doesn't know how to play Chinese Czechers :-)
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MarcusAurelius: How dare you criticise your Commander-in-Chief, a man elected by a large majority of your fellow Americans, for declining to meet an unelected European official, the very emodiment of an elite establishment figure, who moreover was appointed to his post with the support of the Communists? How very anti-American and unpatriotic of you!
(Watching the American far right squirm during the next four years...or perhaps rather eight...is going to be hugely entertaining.)
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Victor, Eastern Europe as a notion (indeed of our control. not geography. it's a political-economic term) happened more recently than ? what was that a thousand years ago. Natural folks operate in recent terms and not in Roman empire terms, who is who of neighbours, and where is what.
Now you don't like that, you make a point you are not with USSR for 20 plus years as minimum, time to forget old language, and, like "don't offend us unneedily reminding of the bad past".
To tell others what language to use about you is useless. (Believe us in Russia LOL). That's PC; if it will be accompanied by heavy fines and politicians' resignation who use the term - it will work. Policing, I mean.
Otherwise you can only hope for the better and have 2 options:
1. make an effort you are unrecognisable from Europe say, :o) "leftover" to the left side, blend into the environment and then it is one EU, without it's (the EU) East, Centre, West.
Mind it, it will be difficult anyway to deny the EU to have at one point coming up with a term "Eastern EU". "Western EU". And where is "Central EU I don't know". Looks like nowhere.
2. Make an effort this bunch of countries is known and famous for something new and extraordinary, that blocks in the mind the old terminology and instead you are associated with a new word.
The "great pillow fight" countries :o), "the 2nd andron collider ring" :o) "the bunch who saved all from Russia" :o)
3. You can try to escape from the title not as a bunch of countries but one by one. All that is required is educational effort directed at "leftover on the left". They simply can't tell one from another very often, only politically advanced and newer generations can. It all blurs into one mass "on the side", and with folks like Americans and further away you simply have to start education and propaganda from scratch. :o)
Again, the same recepie, do something flashy, that they remember and it's not a "mass".
An attempt to shift over the "Eastern Europe" label onto Russia doesn't work, because Russia in common understanding means enough by itself, LOL. Any additional adjectives are frills and decorations.
Ukraine I am afraid by now also means enough by itself :o)
Belorussia is more receptive and might embrace the Eastern Europe title. I guess you simply didn't tell them it's for free and for grabs! When they start calling themselves Eastern Europe, it will be immediately clear there is some controversy, and people's minds will have to make choices - which one is correct ? Is it them or those? And if Belorussia will persist, in papers, textbooks and speeches or whatever it might crawl over to them.
See it's not enough to get rid of the name, it will be more sure if somebody else takes it, then it's definitely not yours.
Meanwhile until all settled I have 2 suggestions:
1. No Eastern Europe by 2009, but Eastern EU.
2. Don't care. Like you said, what's 40 years of our occupation compared to a 1000 years' history. We are kind of offended as well, that you over-inflate our impact at your countries. Really, nothing worse happened in your history, than 56' Hungary and 68' Prague?
I think before any USSR occupation there was a mental division in Europe into East, Central and West. Central was Germany. Are you sure there weren't a notion "Eastern Europe" before 1945? I think there always was. It's not Stalin's invention.
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I even don't believe "Eastern Europe" is a Russian invention.
1. Like I said, I am sure the term existed before 1945.
2. Russians are hopeless to tell where is "East" where is "West". We never think in these categories. That's natural for English, and other Europeans may be, never checked, get oriented by that.
We think in terms "on your left hand" and "on your right hand".
I was lost first time in London subway. When something/somebody says/writes, that a train goes in East bound direction - what the hell it means? I stood in my shoes and wondered. Remembering school geography, like, surely I was taught some time if East is your left hand or your right hand.
Like old time soldiers! who had to be taught left leg from right leg hay-straw (attached to legs) command, hay-straw, hay-straw! which step to make first (I guess the synonim is red sock and green sock in British navy :o)
- that's how feels a Russian coming across - "go West", "this street /line goes East". Means nil. We've got zero "Western streets" , "Eastern streets" in the whole country. No "West/East in toponymics at all mentioned. Simply can't think in these categories technically.
Has to be converted into "roubles" - left and right.
So, Victor - with your complaints that you are "Eastern" - address someone on your left side.
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Never met a live Russian who knows what is "US East Coast".
All know where cities are - ah, that one? on their right side, by the water.
Ah, San Francisco? That's their left side, by the water.
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#48 "based on a lifetime experience" as opposed to those lifetimes of non-experience everyone else has?
"It's a matter of self image, a characteristic of false pride..." at last, something you're lifetime of experience qualifies you to comment on.
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post 45 Philippe78
Oh I would just ignore him. There are quite a few eurosceptics on this blog with decent and informed criticisms on the EU institutions. Then there are the europhobes, who dont mind europeans as long as they have no running in the affairs that the UK gives quite happlily to the US. Basing their assumptions on national stereotypes. Many of them have the morals of the 1900's politics of the 1940's and often the dress sense of the 1970's.
No... Marcus AureliusII (such a grand title, for one who hates people with credentials) is a different sort of blogger. A eurohater. Actually if we dig even deeper is closer to one of theose neo-con hawks America has near enough ruined itself with in the last few years. He sees no possibility of unity between people of different nations or cultures. In International Realtions who would be on the far end of the spectrum of the writings of EH Carr. The EU for all its flaws is a representation of this striving for unity. And he hates it. But for bombast and and cold rumblings there is something hurting in his blogging. He proclaims that his blogging is analytical. It is not. His posts show it. It is born of frustrations and hatreds he is unwilling to express here. Possibly unable to admit them to himself.
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#43 - betuli
To be honest, I don't think anyone cares very much. The sense is that the region we are talking about sees itself as European pure and simple. Nobody is greatly engaged with notions of east, west or central. Where there is a distinction is that the nations that have emerged from the post cold war era do find themselves in some ways economically disadvantaged. It was perfectly understandable during the boom years that western financial institutions saw it as the new frontier full of opportunity and now that it has all gone slightly pear shaped, the urge to draw back is commercially understandable if morally questionable. Basically, we all have the same ideas - free liberal democratic institutions which ensure our collective freedom and well-being. Accidents of geography are by the by.
Alice -
All I am doing is looking at the geographical definitions which I personally think are unimportant. Wasn't it Gorbachev who spoke of a Europe from the Urals to the Atlantic? No bad ambition in the long term. In the short term, we no longer view our Russian friends as little red people from Mars. Give us time Alice, we all have some growing up to do.
On your comment at #50, eastern Europe was basically what was left over in 1919 after Trianon when the Austro-Hungarian empire was carved up. The Austrian domination was always unsustainable and so was the Soviet attempts to control it post 1946. Those days have gone. I think what people are genuinely bewildered and confused about over Hungary in '56 and Czechoslovakia in '68 is the way which the west, which had been mouthing platitudes for so long, did not lift a finger to help when the chips were down. This is why I get so annoyed with those who post that the US won the Cold War. Nobody won the Cold War. It just went away when it had outlived it's useful purpose. It is to the credit of those nations which finally found their voice that they have generally used it to further democracy and freedom. It is to the credit of Russia that they have been willing to coexist with the new reality and engage in worthwhile dialogue.
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Threnodio and MarcusAureliusII,
Let's forget East and West and embrace WebAliceinwonderland's suggestion: use Left and Right, or Up and Down, to refer the different sides of Europe. It seems these terms have less negative connotations if any :-)))
One more thing: Oriental (synonim of Eastern), has a very positive denotation. To orientate = to follow the right way.
Hope everyone is happy now.
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WebAlice:
"2. Russians are hopeless to tell where is "East" where is "West". We never think in these categories. That's natural for English, and other Europeans may be, never checked, get oriented by that.
We think in terms "on your left hand" and "on your right hand"."
Have your mother sew the words "left" and "right" on the cuffs of your jackets and shirts in case you forget. You might have her embroider your name on it too while she's got the needle and thread in her hands, just in case :-)
crosseyes;
For a minute you had me scared with your posting #31 but after reading the rest of it and #53, I breathed a sigh of relief. It frightens me when you agree with me. It makes me wonder where I went wrong. Having read your dribble for the last few years, your condemnation of my postings is the best reassurance I can get that I'm right. Keep up the bad work.
FordMondeo; (What is that, a model of automobile Ford makes in Europe?)
I do not hate people with credentials. I just discount them as having any knowledge when credentials are all they have to justify any claim to knowledge. I have credentials myself. At best they are an indication of the discipline to work to obtain them assuming they were not acquired fraudulently and a ticket to begin to take on increasingly complex challenges that can lead to real knowledge after years of applying the analytical skills of an education to solving real world problems. And sometimes that even works, sometimes it doesn't. In many places credentials are blindly accepted as a substitute for skill with disasterous consequences. Those MBAs who crashed the world's economy are one example. President Obama will likely be another. This is relatively new to America where the inexperience of youth is now dismissed while the substitute of energy and enthusiasm is now taken as valuable but in Europe, credentials have been the criteria used to judge people for centuries. That is one reason Europe is such a disasterous failure. Is America condemning itself now to make the same mistake? It sometimes looks that way. That is not what our social ethos that led to our success has been about. Some of our most successful and creative people had no credentials. I think Thomas Edison was one. As an example, when Gene Amdahl, a pioneer of large computers back in the 1960s was asked about not having a PHD, he said "If I need one....I'll hire one." Ingenuity, inventiveness, determination, insight, the ability to reason will all beat out mere credentials every single time. That is one reason America has been so successful.
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@ betuli wrote:
"Come on! Don't tell me terms such "Latin" or "Southern European" have not had negative connotations among the English-spaeker world and North-western Europeans!"
These terms have never been related to a totalitarian superpower bent on destroying the free world. Like it or not, for us, the term "Eastern Europe" (when used in relation to countries like Czech Rep., Poland or Hungary) is pretty much equal to "Soviet Bloc", which is about as nice a concept to us as the "Third Reich".
But then again, this is not the only problem with this term. Vast majority of people here see it as a wrong name, a relic of the Cold War. They expected that with the end of the Cold War, people would start using the proper term - Central Europe - again. When they see that the others refuse to stop thinking about them as "the Easterners", they have to assume that they do it on purpose, to remind them of their "lower status" of people who were "on the other side of the Curtain" during the Cold War. If you can't understand why this may be discomforting and offensive, we better stop discussing this right now, because I have no idea how to explain it in other way.
"Also, tell me: where is the common political link between two "Central" European countries like yours and Germany? As far as we know, you are in the antipodes: the one represents an ever closer EU; the other has acted so far in the opposite direction."
How? We didn't turn down the European Constitution like the French or the Dutch, we didn't refuse the Lisbon treaty like the Irish, so why are we always seen as a nation of eurosceptics? What have we done so evil to deserve this? I am a convinced euro-optimist myself and most people I know support the EU. Polls show that majority of Czechs support further integration, one poll even showed that people trust the EU institutions more than the Czech government itself.
Perhaps you shouldn't believe everything the press says about the Czech Republic. Just because Klaus is a fool it doesn't mean the whole country is crawling with Eurosceptics.
As for your question - you'd be surprised how much do we consult things with Germany and how often our governments stand on the same side in the EU. But I wasn't talking only about politics: culturally speaking, I find I have a lot more in common with an average Austrian than with an average Russian.
And by the way, since Vienna is more to the East than Prague, are they Eastern European too?
@ MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"It's a matter of self image, a characteristic of false pride all Europeans suffer from to one degree or another. They don't want to be lumped in with people they see as inferior to themselves like Ukranians or Belarussians. It's a matter of a facade that hides a complete lack of substance. That is why Europeans like Obama so much. He suffers the same flaw."
Stop projecting, please. We certainly don't see Ukrainians as inferior, otherwise we wouldn't be trying so hard to support them and defend their interests in the EU and NATO.
We simply don't feel to be a part of Eastern Europe - not the Cold War Eastern Europe and not the geographic/cultural Eastern Europe. Our culture and heritage is different. Different does not mean better or worse.
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Obama will only preach to the choir or in other words only people whom agree with him. I am not surprised that he passed on dinner with a non-Socialist.
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Alright, Viktor (58), I have to concede over your dislike to be called Easterner and am glad to read what you said over the spread Europeist feeling among Czechs, despite their President stance on this issue.
Let me tell you an anecdote. I remember being in Santorini (Greece) during the summer 2004, weeks after the EU enlargement, when a local hailed a group of Czech tourists by saying "Welcome to Europe". I suggested that Greek man to look at a Europe map to chek where the Czech republic was, compared to the peripheric location of his island.
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@ betuli
Foreign journalists often mistake the traditional Czech scepticism for a genuine euroscepticism. After being failed so many times, average Czechs tend to be sceptical about pretty much everything - it's hard to sell them lofty ideals and you have to admit that in order to believe in the EU, you have to be a bit of an idealist.
Klaus capitalizes on that. He abuses his position as the President and speaks for himself, knowing that the office he's holding will guarantee him respect (Czech presidents traditionally have a royal-like aura in this country) and protect him from too much criticism.
Nevertheless, his support has been falling for the past year, when his rants became too embarrassing.
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I can well understand BO not wanting to waste an evening with the reactionary Czech leader, but "modern Czech cuisine in a top restaurant" sounds nearly as bad. What's wrong with the real thing in a proper local eaterie? Oh, the cheese, I guess. Someone tell him it's very mild.
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VictorD
"Stop projecting, please. We certainly don't see Ukrainians as inferior, otherwise we wouldn't be trying so hard to support them and defend their interests in the EU and NATO.
We simply don't feel to be a part of Eastern Europe - not the Cold War Eastern Europe and not the geographic/cultural Eastern Europe. Our culture and heritage is different. Different does not mean better or worse."
Your nation was part of the Warsaw Pact. It was a slave state of the Soviet Empire. When it tried to resist, it was crushed. Had there been a war between NATO and the USSR, NATO would have invaded your country or wiped it off the face of the earth. Dozens of American, British, and French nuclear weapons were targeted at it. From a Western perspective, you are as Eastern European as Roumania, Bulgaria, and your economy, infrastructure, and society were just as disfunctional. You were subsidized by the USSR in the past, then by Germany, the UK, and others under the EU. Who do you think you're kidding?
From President Obama's demeanor, you'd hardly know that despite all of the difficulties at home, he is still the leader of the most power and important nation in the world militarily, economically, and in every other meaningful way there is. He has acted like a supplicant. The facts are simple, whether it is NATO, the EU, WTO, or any other arrangement between nations, it is not a partnership of equals. Americans bear most of the burden but do not reap a proportionate share of the benefits. To sublimate American interests to the interests of the larger world does not advance America's security or prosperity. He has verged on the borderline of traitor. If it continues in this direction, impeachment should be given serious consideration.
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#63 MarcusAureliusII
"impeachment should be given serious consideration"
While I agree, I don't think that the BBC allows any poster to be impeached - no matter how inane his comments. If a precedent needs to be set, however, you would be the ideal candidate.
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@ MarcusAureliusII
Thanks for another striking display of ignorance!
"You were subsidized by the USSR in the past, then by Germany, the UK, and others under the EU. Who do you think you're kidding?"
Unlike you, I am not kidding anybody. You see, it was the other way round. Czechoslovakia has always been more developed than the Soviet Union (before WW2, it was counted among 10 most industrialized nations on Earth), therefore we were in fact "subsidizing" them - of course nobody asked us if we wanted to do that so one could call this an exploitation...
Anyway, thanks for providing evidence for my claim that you use the term Eastern Europe simply because your mind has never got out of the Cold War. Time to wake up, pal!
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oldgnat, I wondered where you'd buzzed off to.
VictorD, you can call yourself Central Europe or the North Pole for all I care. Prague Spring was a brief interlude in 50 years of a Soviet winter. Don't expect the ice age to thaw overnight. First you seperate yourselves from Slovakia and then you re-unite under the EU. To me you're just one more of those countless little countries the French and Germans wanted to lord it over. I suppose even among the serfs there is a pecking order.
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Victor, LOL.
What's the name for the continental countries, who absolutely individually, and in no way having anything in common :o), always support initiatives, say, hurting either Russia's image or Russia's money interests - in the EU?
That the combined definition still lives on is your own hands' making.
On the notion that Czechs don't have much in common with Russians agree. Czechs are slavs only to ? some? genetics' scientists... and even them are wrong! I am sure :o)
or may be look so to an outsider's unexperienced look from over yonder, on the left Czech hand.
Russians always thought that "Czechs are half Germans".
As to what is the other half we didn't even think once. No idea.
Something like "half-Czechs, half-Germans" - would be correct.
Victor I don't think you liked Ukrainians until the Orange Revolution.
Only when their leaders began an open anti-Russian crusaide - you developed a sudden partiality to the Ukrainian folk. If Chechnya will have a? mimosa revolution - to the effect of prohibiting Russian in their schools or whatever else friendly - no doubt you'll start adoring the Chechens. The next day. And "support Chechnya to become part of NATO". It's not the people you like, but the politics.
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BTW "Echo of Moscow" think-tank interviewed yesterday the next Ukrainian president. The next Western appointee for the position, that is.
Himself he didn't announce it at home yet, so far only travels the EU, making acquantance. Formally he has to wait a month more, to declare at home that he enters the race. He is not yet 35, by Ukr. law can't declare intentions, and he is an utmost careful small chap, waits.
So the Echo Jewish think-tank dis-assembled him to bones, by an expert hand. And agreed for the next meeting in Moscow the day after his birthday, to interview again, in the new status.
Victor, rest assured, you're going to like Ukrainians 4 years more.
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Name - Arseny Yatseniuk.
Features - standard Ukrainian.
First quotes:
"We have no disputes with Russia over Crimea. Nobody in Ukraine ever felt we do."
"Prolongation of Sebastopol city rental further than 2017 does not stand in my agenda".
"Ukraine must obtain a share in the Russian gas natural deposits in the North. I am not happy with us being simply a transit country. Ukrainians will agree with it, that it is fair."
"I am against the option of selling on the border Russia-Ukraine; will be frank with you - we also want to have Europe as customers and profit on them like you do. People will agree with me. I will unite Ukraine."
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To ants, there is a sharp distinction among them, workers, soldiers, drones, queens. They have their heirarchy which is important only to themselves and scientists who study them. To me they just all crawl around on the ground and go in and out of holes of sand on the grass or in the cracks in the sidewalk. If they annoy you enough, you squirt them with some vile smelling liquid and they go away for awhile. But they always come back. To me an ant is an ant. (-: :-)
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I don't consider using the label Eastern Europe an insult, but it is a sign of ignorance. If someone can't get even basic facts straight, he is unlikely to say anything worth listening to. That is why I ignore posters like MarcusAureliusII, the Internet is full of people who have an opinion on everything and knowledge of nothing.
Calling the Czech Republic Eastern European thus gives a bad first impression, but the writer can make up for that if it later becomes clear that he actually knows what he is talking about. Those labels are tricky anyway. Is Albania in Southern Europe? Switzerland? Armenia? If yes, what do these three countries have in common? In Sweden the Baltic Sea is known as the Eastern Sea, in Estonia it is known as the Western Sea.
"Also, tell me: where is the common political link between two "Central" European countries like yours and Germany? As far as we know, you are in the antipodes: the one represents an ever closer EU; the other has acted so far in the opposite direction."
This is a more interesting question than nomenclature. I believe that in politics geography matters, and it matters more than culture, history, or language. In larger countries (by European measures) like Germany, Poland, or Spain the internal divides can sometimes be missed. Bohemia may have more in common with Saxony than than it has with the Rhineland.
Czechs like to huddle around the middle. If you look at surveys Czechs tend to stay very close to "EU average" (there are of course exceptions). It may even be the most average country in Europe. It isn't the most europhobic country in the EU, nor is it the most europhile, it is, you guessed it, just in the middle.
In the EU Germany is not represented as a number of länder, but as a federal republic. Within EU size matters, so large Germany often has different interests than the mid-size Czech Republic. Germany's interests are shifting, so may its enthusiasm for EU federalism. In actual policy German and Czech positions may often be quite close, though there is enough of neighbourly friction.
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Viktor_D
'But I wasn't talking only about politics: culturally speaking, I find I have a lot more in common with an average Austrian than with an average Russian.'
I wonder whether the Austrians and the Germans will say the same about you. As a Bulgarian, I always thought the Czechs and us Bulgarians were the same thing. Thanks very much for correcting me- now I do not think we are the same any more.
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A few facts to consider for those who do not see any link between Germany and the Czech Republic:
- Prague is geographically located between Berlin, Munich and Vienna
- for many centuries until 1945, about one-third of the population living in what is today the Czech Republic were ethnically German
- for many centuries, the king of Bohemia was one of the 7 individuals entitled to vote for the German emperor
- when the written Czech language was almost extinguished in the 18th century, the official Czech language was recreated by native German speakers
- before 1918, the Czech lands had the same legal system like Austria
- like in the past, German companies are the biggest trading partner and investor in the Czech Republic
The above applies despite the occasional rants from the Chief Eurosceptic Officer also known as the Professor who sits at the Prague Castle collecting credentials to turn his boring provincial non-career into a lucrative memoir. I guess he wants to get a nice statue, post mortem.
Anyway, freedom of speech is important to me, and I do not care much if the label “Eastern Europe” is used to designate the Czech Republic against the preference of many Czechs by those numerous "Americans" who have this funny accent and inhabit this small rainy overpopulated archipelago located between Europe and Canada (also known as Great Britain and Ireland) and their biggest claim to fame is an Englishman in New York.
Suggestion: a more politically correct label would be “Central and Eastern Europe”, “CEE countries” or “the 12 new EU member states”. Anyway, there is no need to be PC, if PC terminology is not sufficiently exciting for you.
But enough said about this non-topic, why not focus on something more substantive, such as when will those responsible for fraudulently impoverishing millions of small shareholders over the last 12 months be justly punished and jailed for life? This might be a topic that could generate significant consensus across state and regional borders. Maybe the EU could somehow surprise us and be useful in this respect?
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#73 - oulematu
I am not sure that insulting the British and Irish is going to further your cause.
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VickyD, East, West, North, South, who cares. Wherever you're from, to me you are a peasant. (that's the worst insult possible, calling them peasants..hehehehehehe. And like they don't all know it's true.)
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threnodio:
The relevant part of my post was not intended to insult the British and the Irish, but as ironical hyperbole aiming to illustrate the issue with an exaggerated example ad absurdum. I apologize if anything I wrote caused any offense although that would seem to be a stretch. Btw, Sting is a good singer and, unlike CEE, England/Britain/UK at least actually have some claim to fame. Ooops, did I offend someone again and whom, if so?
I have no cause to be advanced here, I do not care if anyone insists on referring to the Czech Republic as Eastern European or ex-Soviet or any other adjective. Tip: a suitable negative stereotype of Czechs could be a bunch of racist fat ice hockey hooligan pimps stealing at Austrian shops to provide food for their slave prostitutes. No offense intended because this is not a statement of fact but a simple replication of an unreasonable stereotype which however is circulating in certain people's heads. It is also ok if you propose suitable insults regarding oulematu. I will not suggest any, lest I could get censored.
I am also quite sympathetic to the G20 protesters insofar as they are calling for borders to be abolished and for economic fraud to be punished. This topics deserves even more attention than the issue of terminology and political correctness in referring to planet Earth or some of its territorial subdivisions.
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"At 7:29pm on 04 Apr 2009, MaxSceptic wrote:
I'm sure Klaus is relieved not to have to entertain the Messiah and his elegant wife and make small talk about things he (quite sensibly) does not believe in."
Max- Agreed! and LOL
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Primeminister Topolanek was not very diplomatic when he critisized the US bail out plans just a few days before his scheduled meeting in Prague with President Obama. Surely he could have formulated the same opinion - it's validity or not is a different subject - with more elegance. He should have remembered, that a welcome kiss from President Obama would not trigger tanks rolling over the Wenzel Square as the kisses did between Breshnew and Dubcek in 1968, merely because Dubcek had a different opinion. Topolanek might have done better repudiating the installing in the Czech Republic of Radars for the US missiles to be stationd in Poland for the great warior G.W. Bush. America missiles in thee EU. Not Nato missiles, no specifically American. Not very clever either.
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WebAliceinwonderland @ 27
The EU President is is a role held by the head of government not the head of state. In the UK that's the Prime Minister and not the Queen. In France they have a semi-presidential system so it's their President. Believe it or not the President of the Czech Republic is meant to be a (mostly) ceremonial post, much like the Presidents of Ireland, Germany and Italy. It's just that Klaus is too much of an arrogant ..... to behave appropriately!
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Thank you, Michael_Walsh, for explaining. Many things are impossible to figure out from outside. And I'm afraid that general awareness in Russia of European structures is, like, like that mentioned here, "Belgium is the capital of Brussels". :o) About very Europarliament existence I only learned in these blogs! Certainly our TV mentions these things, and even shows us some sessions stubbornly and meetings' extracts of this and that in Europe. Somehow I am afraid we don't value much yet these Kremlin educational' efforts :o) Nobody here knows nothing about things that are "Europe together" - and somehow lives well without! LOL.
And that Sarcozy is president and prime minister together certainly didn't know, likewise that the EU president role is held by the head of government. Live and learn. That's why all were worried so much about Topolyanek!
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Ask any Russian in the street where EU powers sit - he won't have a clue.
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P.S. That the EU exists we know. The flag, the euro and the Schengen deal. Full stop. Not an idea more.
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