Did the summit fail the East?
Edgy times make for nervous observers and we are all looking eastwards to see if there will be further downward spiral of the banking crisis in Hungary or the Baltics, dragging in Sweden or Austria and perhaps even the rest of us. Given that, at least at the moment, economics seems two-thirds psychology - the more we all write about it, the more likely it is to happen.
One of the reasons the latest snap EU summit was held on a Sunday was because the markets were closed. Nevertheless, Hungary's currency, the forint, fell on Monday by 2.5% and its credit rating was cut.
But I am puzzled by much of the reporting of the summit. Many focused on the accurate fact that the EU did not come up with a rescue plan for Eastern Europe and its banks. It's fair enough, and obviously true. But a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking that this was the rejection of a long-awaited plan, a further confirmation that the EU dithers in the face of a crisis, and exceptionally bad news for the East. For me, the main story was the row over protectionism. But, as far as the East goes, I feel only the Pink-un got it right with the rather opposite story that help was promised, just not at once.
The single rescue plan was only suggested by Hungary and got no support from the special meeting of Eastern European countries before the summit. As far as I can tell, it was never seriously on the cards. Of course, the fact that 26 leaders didn't think it was necessary doesn't make them right. I stress my interest in this is not to defend the EU against its critics, but simply to wonder whether this was a failure, or indeed whether saying it was makes it so. For what it's worth, one economist I have just spoken to feels that it sent the wrong signals and that eventually the leaders will pull their fingers out, but only when a meltdown is much closer. "Not good then?" I said, rhetorically. "No, but the world is not a good place." Do you think the leaders should have come up with a gigantic pot of money, or are they best biding their time? How will you feel if Gordon Brown asks the British taxpayer to help bail out Latvian banks?
Just a couple of replies to earlier comments: Thanks to SuffolkBoy2 for such a detailed reply to my tease on protectionism. Freeborn-John, you are again suffering from what I call "toothless Serb syndrome" - reacting to what you think I have written, not what is on the page. In fact I think my analysis in all my recent postings on protectionism have made a similar point to yours - there is a gap between the sort of European solidarity which the leaders of the EU countries are signed up to in the various treaties, and what their citizens expect. Into that gap comes protectionism. You seem to think that if I point this out, it is an argument for federalism. But if you highlight it, it is an argument against the EU. It's an observation about the chasm between the ambitions of the elite and aspirations of the people and you can hang what arguments you like upon it. And the "economic orthodox" I was talking about was not socialism, but free trade.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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"And the "economic orthodox" I was talking about was not socialism, but free trade."
Fair enough. It is difficult to know, in these times.
But we must concede that, under the prevailing law of the EU, free trade must not breach competition guidelines. And we must concede that free trade only has meaning within the custom union. Clearly the EU is all about preventing free trade between member states and non EU states. That is the whole point of the import tariff system.
So in between the commission organizing competition inside the EU market, and preventing competition between states for deals outside the EU market, we find the concept of "free trade".
I suspect the only place one could really find a free trade zone is in no mans' land; between the barbed wire of two opposing armies.
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"there is a gap between the sort of European solidarity which the leaders of the EU countries are signed up to in the various treaties, and what their citizens expect."
That gap exists in the wealthier EU states like Britain because the leaders never got permission through a democratic vote to sign up for the obligations under those treaties. This is because when you come down to it, the UK like the other EU members is not a democratic country at all but a despotic tyranny. So despotic that the Prime Minister wouldn't even need the approval of his rubber stamp Parliament to sign the Lisbon Treaty. He is more like a King or Tsar than a true prime minister.
It is one thing for Parliament to tell citizens of say Leeds that they will have to pay higher taxes, higher interest rates, make other sacrifices to help out citizens of Birmingham and Manchester and quite another to tell them they will have to help out citizens of Bucharest and Prague. But this is what membership in the EU as it exists today has committed them to. The members of the EU do not belong to a super nation state yet, they don't even have a constitution but neither are they any longer free and sovereign fully independent states. The myriad inconsistancies and inherent contradictions in the EU construct will propagate as fractures, then fault lines, then gaping cravasses as it is tested by the shock of the economic crisis. It's very survival is highly questionable. So much for one more dream of a unified European empire. From Alexander the Great, to Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin to the inventors of the EU, it has never worked and likely never will.
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The political situation in Europe is full of IFs and BUTs at present.
If the economic bubble of Debt Inflation had continued unfettered as it had done ofr the past 15+ years then the continued expansion of the EU to incorporate more and more Eastern European nations would have continued unabated.
It is on a few months ago (before the Russia-Georgia Conflict) that Georgia and the Ukraine were considered to be "on the road" to future membership of NATO and even being considered as potential future member states of the EU.
Now, the Debt Bubble has burst and money is now sen to be something that does not grow on trees, EU expansion is unthinkable and the newest member nations must be wondering IF their rush to join the EU club was such a great idea.
Perhaps the truth is more prosaic, Mark? In the simplest of terms, the EU Project is an idea born of the aftermath of War and like all grandiose schemes of mankind can only exist and prosper in times of affluence and prosperity.
Now that Europe is as good as bankrupt and the Global Recession more likely to be longer and deeper than the European and other Global Leaders were willing to admit last Autumn, the simple fact of the matter is that the EU Project is itself bankrupt of solutions, bereft of ability to stimulate EU-wide regeneration and unable to bridge the gulf between the wealthier (and I now use that adjective with great reservation - especially in the case of the UK) western Europe nations and the newer EU member states that will grow ever deeper and cause great resentment and potentially massive social unrest within Europe and the wider world.
In my personal view, sadly, the probability is that the EU Project will be the major victim of this distress and upheaval as individual Nations will see that the EU Project can only work during times of growth, mutual prosperity and affluence and is unable to deliver growth and affluence of its own making as it is a politician's autocracy and not a democracy.
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I'm going to say it I promised myself I never would..
But in this instance i agree with MarcusAureliusII, I feel so dirty.
"That gap exists in the wealthier EU states like Britain because the leaders never got permission through a democratic vote to sign up for the obligations under those treaties. This is because when you come down to it, the UK like the other EU members is not a democratic country at all but a despotic tyranny" is spot on.
I hope that the UK and the EU will change there ways, if not popular demonastrations and bloody revolution may well follow.
Call an election
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The Forint looks to be roughly stable against its neighbours the Ruble, the Hryvnia and the Zloty - its problem, like the Pound's, is that the Euro is for some reason perhaps taking on the role of a reserve currency and it is overvalued.
The particular problem for Hungarians is that some people borrowed in currencies that have risen against the Forint as several organisations promoted borrowings denominated in these foreign currencies (Euro, Swiss Franc).
However, consider Gordon Brown's often stated pleasure in the fall of the Pound on the basis that is will be a boost to exports. The Hungarians are a trading people (I have today received a replacement hard disk from Budapest, for example - a while back it would have come from Ireland or direct from Singapore or Thailand.)
The point that all of these European summits are not producing any action is true, but there is no action at home in the UK either. The French and the Germans have at least started schemes such as car scrapping payments - but nothing has happened in the UK. All we can manage is to get hot under the collar about a pension that any half competent administrator would not have paid. We talk too much and act too little!(and generally too late!)
You ask "How will you feel if Gordon Brown asks the British taxpayer to help bail out Latvian banks" - if you ask explicitly nobody will approve, but if they are already a subsidiary of RBS then it is already happening! You might as well ask if HSBC shareholders are happy about bailing out their disastrous American mortgage business (Household).
The summit did not fail the East - nothing was done for them, but they are in the talking shop of the EU and seen to have its strength around them. They are not alone (as indeed were not the Poles in 1939!) and any speculator should do well to remember this!
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#4. WhiteEnglishProud wrote:
"Call an election"...
What evidence can you provide that the other lot will be better or worse (or even be able to produce a stable government?)
Barbarious, should consider the likely break up of his own federation of states under the same pressures - why will the coastal states of the north east and the south west want to continue to subsidise the largely empty continental centre? There is also stress in the UK caused by inter-national and regional cross subsidies.
It is also a bit rich for someone who wants to associated with a two thousand year old dead (by poison) Roman to say that large geographic area systems of management do not work (c.f. The Roman Empire)!
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Mark Mardell: You are guilty of what you accuse me of, i.e. of replying to something I did not say. I made no comment about anything you had said on protectionism, but responded directly to your erroneous statement that "You might not agree with it but there is no doubt that a core principle of the European Union is that the individual member states should not put their interests before the interests of Europe". That is an not a statement about protectionism, but it is an incorrect statement that is intended to be supportive of the federalist position, which is therefore inappropriate for a BBC Europe editor to be making.
(I did later make a post about protectionism, but it was not on anything you had said. Rather it was about why president Sarkozy is wrong to support free trade only if it is reciprocal).
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Mark, I think quite a few economists (e.g. Paul Krugman) have been advocating a 'Swedish solution', particularly in the US but really anywhere the problem crops up. This involves nationalising the troubled (i.e., insolvent, or 'zombie') banks , sorting out the assets, putting the bad assets into a special 'bad bank', and then selling off the remainder, possibly at a profit. This more or less was what was done in Sweden a few years ago. These economists see what has been done so far (recapitalisation, taking corporate bonds as security, etc.) as ineffective half measures.
However, other economists (e.g. John Quiggin in Australia) point out that was in the context of a healthy world banking system so it was easy to isolate the problem. Now it's the whole world, so it's not obvious, for example, who you'd sell the good parts to, because all the potential buyers are also zombie banks.
Meanwhile, those with the responsibility - Geithner, Brown, seem mostly to be scared of the 'N' word. Mrs Thatcher will kill us all yet.
So, basically, we're in uncharted territory.
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John_From_Helldon
"why will the coastal states of the north east and the south west want to continue to subsidise the largely empty continental centre? "
Because they are us. Because they are our close friends and relatives. Because many of us have lived there ourselves. And because they are far from empty, they contribute greatly to all of us. They grow our food, build our machines. We work in their companies, they work in ours. We are on the phone with them every day. We visit them and they visit us every day. Abandoning them is as unthinkable as abandoning our own closest family and nearest neighbors. When we go there, we feel right at home, no difference. America is one country. What is the EU? What Brit feels at home in Bulgaria?
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To MarcusAureliusII (9):
LOL :-)
That is exactly what I say :-D
Because they are us. Because they are our close friends and relatives. Because many of us have lived there ourselves. And because they are far from empty, they contribute greatly to all of us. They grow our food, build our machines. We work in their companies, they work in ours. We are on the phone with them every day. We visit them and they visit us every day. Abandoning them is as unthinkable as abandoning our own closest family and nearest neighbours. When we go there, we feel right at home, no difference. Europe is one country.
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6#
What evidence can you provide that the other lot will be better or worse?
None, I didn't even state i wanted the other lot to win. They are untried and untested, but the Labour Goverment has sleep walked into this mess and show no signs of waking up. I can only evidence what this Government has failed to do, how can i be expected to provide evidence for something that hasn't happened yet.
I believe the best we can hope for is a hung parliment which will mean a co-alition Government. The longer GB leaves the election the more seats the BNP will win. He should call mone now before extremism really rears it ugly head in this country.
(or even be able to produce a stable government?)
That depends on how people vote.
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Jukka_Rohila
Europe is one country
ROFL yeah thats a good one.
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Joka Booka, you've been to Bulgaria? You can talk with them freely and openly? You communicate with them in their own language and they talk to you in yours? How do they like their reindeer meat cooked when they visit Finland? Rare? Or should I have said "rarely"...if ever.
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Jukka_Rohila (10)
I think I have to agree with MAII on this!
I don't recall ever reading about an Iron Curtain that ever split one half of the US of America from the other half . . . .
Was not the abandonment of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania et al to being behind the Iron Curtain a bit of abandonment by the Western European nations that no one can be particualrly proud of.
Was that not an example of how, when needs must, one European will not only stab another European in the back, steal his home, wife and wealth but do it with a cunning smile that says, "This won't hurt me a bit! But it is in all our best interests."
Living within the boundaries of Continental Europe does not maketh a European Citizen as evidenced by people who have emigrated into Europe but not only refuse to adopt European morals but feel that they wish to threaten, maim and even kill their hosts through a perverted sense of cultural difference?
At least Continental USA, Americans do feel some unified degree of patriotism to their Nation and can feel unified under their constitutional rights and privileges. I am not sure Europeans feel so secure under the intended constitution of the European Union - hence the French and Dutch "No" to the EU Consttitution Treaty and, perhaps why the canny Irish have voted "No" to the Lisbon Treaty?
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Mark,
CAPITALISM means each country on its own.. or together in interests.
While SOCIALISM is solidarity, sharing the loses, lies and tribal thinking.
first one generates all good things, people can imagine.
second one generates parasitism, and nothing.
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I have to say Mark, give it to me straight: are you at all convinced the EU leaders'll actually do anything before we all start buying baked beans in bulk? I think the same old process is happening, just send out (what seems to be) mixed messages and pray.
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there will be no end to this agony till the system becomes fair.
Now we can be proudly called countries in transition.
we have failed to support the hard working people, by supporting the failed ones.
but failed ones cannot win no matter what.
we make policies and give rights to failed people, and hope the decent ones will not understand the trick.
which countries failed USSR?
same ones that will fail us.
we brought it home, we have them among us and it will destroy us from within.
how can we trust ... with no integrity.
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Jukka_Rohila @10,
"... Abandoning them is as unthinkable as abandoning our own closest family and nearest neighbours. When we go there, we feel right at home, no difference. Europe is one country."
Don't be silly. Most Briton's don't give a tinker's cuss about Bulgaria - or Finland for that matter.
If I was asked whether I would donate, say, a thousand pounds of my own hard earned money to save Finland from [insert horrible fate here], you can be sure that I and the rest of the world would be reading Finland's obituary whilst I had my next day's morning coffee.
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100 leaders/bankers/liers, give their words, with nothing to back it up...
should i keep trusting them, and support thier lavish salaries.. or people who will really help me when in difficultiees???
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Menedemus @ 14: An Iron Curtain dividing one half of the US from the other? You never heard of the Mason-Dixon line? There was a small brouhaha between the states at each side of said line back in 1861...
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"There is a gap between the sort of European solidarity which the leaders of the EU countries are signed up to in the various treaties, and what their citizens expect."
There is a gap, really, between the idea of a strong common market and particular interests of the members of the union established on the same idea. Those interests seem to have ballooned at the first sign of potential woes.
The secret of an successful economy is perhaps in its ability to overcome national differences, to acquit of historical burdens, and to focus purely on competencies and market values. The EU is obviously not a good example.
When it came to colect the profit, a sumptuous meal coming from exorbitant levels of interest, then the banks from the east bank of EU didn't hesitate. Dismantling of the Iron Curtain was wellcomed. The avalanche of the new consumers of the products from the west bank of EU was wellcomed.
When it comes to return some of the profit to the place of its origin, to overcome those unessential differences, to look more far to the future, to bail out the same banks, then suddenly everybody become oblivious.
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I was quite disturbed by by the media reports I read of this EU summit, which gave the impression that the EU was on the verge of falling apart.
The Pink 'Un tends to deal with these things in a very factual way so good for them, as mentioned by Mark.
There seem to be specific issues to be addressed with respect to some of the Eastern EU members - namely blatant corruption (as opposed to the more subtle variety here in England) so the wealthier EU members such as Germany would be right to insist on safeguards before handing over money to some of these countries.
Frankly, there some serious issues with the EU itself which are going to have to be addressed very soon e.g. the democratic deficit, the non-audited accounts, the lack of harmonisation across the market and so on.
But probably the most serious issue right now is the lack of clear political leadership within the EU.
It is now time for the EU to elect a President and associated Ministers with real powers.
The EU project, as a counterbalance to the USA and the BRICs will only work politically, economically and especially militarily, when this happens.
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RCalvo (20)
I think you are stretching it a bit by going back to 1861.
Nevertheless, if we look at Europe between 1861 and the construction of the Iron Curtain I think we can see much worse events in Europe than any brouhaha within North America of 1861!
It is also worth mentioning that the US Constiturion to which the Americans hold much patriotic allegiance was much modified and codified post-American Civil War.
One can hardly suggest that "Europeans" (be they indigenous or immigrant) feel any patriotism towards the EU and its future constitution courtesy of the Lisbon Treaty or by erstwhile backdoor EU subterfuge.
I still believe that Continental North Americans feel more affinity to one another than Continental Europeans do for each other and the fact is that Europe is not a Nation now, it never will be a Nation and, despite all efforts to form a Demos from among the diverse tribes and peoples of Europe, the truth is the people of Europe themselves do not want to become part of a Continental Europe Nation - they simply want to live in peace and harmony wherever they can find it.
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To Menedemus (14):
Eh...
How much can you really fault western European countries for the poor destiny of the eastern European countries? Americans in the west, Soviets in the east. I think they would have not taken kindly a letter from Brussels "We ask you to leave Europe immediately and never return, please?".
On the contrary after the fall of the Iron Curtain western European countries have embraced eastern European countries. Huge amounts of investments and connections have been made in just a few decades and now most of the eastern European countries are in the European Union standing in an equal position with the old western members. Isn't that something? Isn't that unity?
And no, the fact that more prosperous EU countries are not willing to just 'bailout' eastern Europe is that in reality eastern Europe is not in that bad shape and secondly just throwing money at a problem doesn't fix it.
And no, the French and Dutch vote for No for the European Constitution was more to do other things as European unity. For example if Prince Charles made a coup, and put a new constitution on vote that would devolve England, Wales, Scotland and Northern-Ireland as individual countries and instead replace them by one Britain ruled by the absolute monarch, the King Charles, and the people would vote against that, would that mean that English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern-Irish voted No against it, would that mean No vote for Britain?
And lets look at the US a bit more...
There was this nasty Civil war, then there was this racial segregation, then there were the cultural wars, etc.. The whole bible belt is economically and culturally a whole different country than coasts. Then there was that Hurricane Katrina and failed or more of non started reconstruction of New Orleans. Its one thing to say that you are united, but when that unity is only shown to wage war of terror in countries that have nothing to do with it, then you have to ask how much unity there actually is?
PS. A personal question, you have been a bit negative lately. Cheer up, have a lager, its not the end of the world, just business as usual.
To MaxSceptic (18):
Well that is your opinion. That is not mine nor I would think the opinion of average European. For example the Finnish state along with other EU countries contributed alongside with IMF to form the rescue package. The small Finnish part of the package accounts just for 61 Euro per Finnish citizen, in real world terms that is just one night in the bar and as the money is repaid eventually, that is almost significance sacrifice.
I should also add that one good reason to help is that when you need help others will help you.
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There has been a serious conflict between "European solidarity" and unrestrainable desire of the well situated to become better situated, in the presence of the meager and, as far as credit potential is concerned, unhedged consumers.
But something has been mixed up. They were not of those supposed to impoverish.
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JohnConstable @22,
"It is now time for the EU to elect a President and associated Ministers with real powers."
OMG!!! You want to bring back Tony Blair? Do you really want him conning 27 countries instead of just one?
(Besides, I thought he was running for Pope...).
Thankfully, there is more chance of Mrs Blair marrying Sarkozy than there is of anyone electing a Grande EU Generalissimo.
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JohnConstable
"It is now time for the EU to elect a President and associated Ministers with real powers."
Are you completely deranged?
This is the worst possible time to start dishing out powers to people when there is not process of checks and balances in place.
Have you forgotten what happens when to few people share too much power!
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On the key issue in Mark's blog, the EU leaders agreed to deal with Central and Eastern Europe on a case by case basis, rather than as a bloc. (NB Mark, would you, and others, please not confuse states that are decidedly Central European with states that are clearly Easter European).
menedemus #3: it's not that Europe is bankrupt but that most of the world is. So, we're still on the same playing field as before. And, as been noted elsewhere (eg the now-celebrated "pink -un"), there are countries lining up to join the euro; no-one has raised the idea of leaving yet.
JohnConstable: for goodness sake, the hoary old accounts problem yet again? It's the spending countries (like the UK) who are the problem: they can't/won't detail how their allocations were spent. Don't blame the policeman for the crime.
The idea of the EU was never, still isn't and can't be to create a european state. At it's worst there were strong (now weak) wishes for a federal union. But national languages, traditions and cultures are recognised. And even regional differences are supported at EU level, whilst not necessarily at national level.
The EU has plenty wrong with it but the posts here miss the targets most of the time.
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#13 MAII:
"Joka Booka, you've been to Bulgaria? You can talk with them freely and openly? You communicate with them in their own language and they talk to you in yours?"
Do you speak Spanish? In about 20 years time that is what you will have to do to communicate with your "fellow" Americans in large swathes of your country.
Or didn't you know that?
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Dear Mark,
I am an MBA student at CEU doing an analysis on your article: Winds of change shake Romanian farms.
I really find interesting your assumptions on EU membership effecting RO agriculture. Seems that some questions are close to be answered...the romanian agriculture is not being helped by EU policies. Do you have any updated comment on this issue? I would be grateful to get your present opinion on this issue. Thanks a lot,
Janka
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I don't really know what is going on in the Eastern side of the continent in respect of belonging to a European demos.
What I can see is that in Western Europe there is an ever closer process of union, creating a sort of European demos embryo.
This is especially true in Southwestern Europe, or as I like to call, the Latin Arch. Italians, French, Spanish and Portuguese are societies increasingly getting more homogenous, no matter which type of government are in Rome, Paris, Madrid or Lisbon.
This Latin Europe has strong ties with the German speaker countries, the Benelux and the British isles, which at the same time are well connected with Scandinavia.
Sweden, Finland, Austria or Greece are well involved with Eastern Europe.
So European project falling apart? Don't make me laugh! This is a natural and growing process that none crisis is going to derail.
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MalcolmW2 @29
Strangely enough, despite being suppressed minorities, the two ethnic groups with the most vocal and active participation in the US Democratic processes are the Hispanic and the Afro-Caribbeans communities . . . that speaks volumes for those communities wishing to voluntarily commit to being part of America and participating in their constitutional processes and being American.
I wonder what would happen if the suppressed peoples of the EU Nation States (apart from Ireland who have had their say!) were given the chance to participate in an electoral process to commit to being European and bound by an EU Constitution?
I still suspect that many would say "No thanks!"
frenchderek @28
"it's not that Europe is bankrupt but that most of the world is. So, we're still on the same playing field as before."
I think you will find the level playing field is now a very slippery slope and neither the status quo of being in the Eurozone nor adoption of the Euro are nothing like as secure an option as it was prior to last autumn.
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Has anyone listened to Rush Limbaugh, the radio talk show host beloved by the right in the USA? He wants the president to fail. To those who think the US constitution is such a phenomenal document they forget that blacks were not considered fully humans under it. What makes the constitution a strong document is its weakness; all the amendments to it create a pool of contradictions only beloved by lawyers.
As to the patriotism Americans feel toward their country, that's normal, but if you think the the US is a homogeneous country with Southerners being amiable to Northerners or God Forbid, Californians, then you must live in the US a few years.
Europe may have many problems and divisions, but those divisions are good for everyone and the big challenge is to be able to have diversity with cohesion.
The current economic problems faced by the world are in my opinion the result of super exploitation of natural resources and building more houses or cars or giving loans will not make a difference until there is a viable economic mechanism that does not rely on the exploitation and waste of natural resources and planet destruction.
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MaxSceptic @ 26 and WhiteEnglishProud @ 27
I did not exactly say that I wanted to bring back Tony Blair but on Nick Robinson's blog I merely pointed out that he was probably the most suitable candidate.
The 'magic circle' seem to think this is going to happen, hence President Obama's "my good friend Tony" quote.
Besides it really does not matter what we, the 99.99% of the EU peoples think about this.
The EU MEP's and Brussels bureaucracy see an EU President etc. as an essential political component of the EU, so it will happen.
I am all for appropriate checks and balances but we have to use the hand we're dealt and I could think of far worse people than Blair to be running the EU show.
In this world, I find it helps to be slightly deranged as everything starts to make sense then.
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To MarcusAureliusII (13):
No I haven't been in Bulgaria, but have you been in all of the 50 US states?
Yes, if I would travel to Bulgaria I could talk as freely and openly with them as with any other people.
No, we couldn't communicate using native language, but we could use the unofficial common language of English... or I could just do like the Americans, "I'M AMERICAN!!! THIS IS NICE!!! HOW MUCH??? ONE DOLLAR!!! HERE IS ONE DOLLAR!!! YES!!! NICE!!!"
If the rest of Europe would need in their trip to Finland an culinary advice, I would recommend they would try our local delicacy served by nationwide Kotipizza chain called Berlusconi. The pizza Berlusconi contains smoked reindeer, chanterelle and red onions in rich fibre base.
And of course Europeans are coming here. Helsinki has been a hip town for a while and of course the only place with snow guarantee in Europe is Lapland.
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#14 - Menedemus
Absolutely not. It was the arrogance of of the victors. The Allies thought is was a noble thing to bring freedom and democracy to the conquered. Unfortunately, the Russians got in the way. In 1956 it was to dangerous to do so for Poland and Hungary so they sat on their hands. In 1968 they were shocked by what happened in Czechoslovakia but regretted that they were otherwise engaged.
Then in 1989, it all happened. The whole wretched edifice came crumbling down and the west started pumping money in like it was going out of fashion. But it was all for short term gain. Those who wish to criticise the lending and borrowing patterns of eastern Europe would do well to remember exactly where all this started. People who irresponsibly borrowed too much money they could not to repay were lent it by people who were too greedy to realise that they would eventually be overstretched and the whole bubble would burst.
Sound familiar? This is not eastern Europe.
This is the absurd property bubble in the west - sub-prime, 125% mortgages and so on. The west got exactly what they wanted out of eastern Europe. Now they are happy to apportion blame. This is hypocrisy on a monumental scale. If eastern Europe has become a monster, just remember who created it and why.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ofilha @ #33
Speak for yourself chum.
I want the biggest car, most luxurious home and the grandest lifestyle I can afford.
The shame is that I'll have to win the National Lottery or be a disgraced Bank Chairman or retired Prime Minister to achieve my personal dream - otherwise I have no chance.
However, whilst I am waiting on my winning Lottery ticket or disgraceful "retirement", you can keep your viable economic mechanism that does not rely on the exploitation and waste of natural resources and planet destruction.
On a personal note, it really bugs me how there is this now prevalent and insidious socialist/liberal "bully" culture that wants to control and make everyone live as they are told to do by the socialist/liberal bullies who seek to not allow people to live as individual human beings with a mind of their own and self-determination at the core of their human existence.
rotfl
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Marcus
". . . you've been to Bulgaria? You can talk with them freely and openly?"
Why not? You don't have a monopoly on free speech.
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look the market today and learn that there are forces beyond your control, and 100 leaders cannot calm down the markets and investors.
EU is bleeding money and draining knowledge.
Corruption is deeply wide spread.
Trust has gonne.
Nothing is secure.
The truth is that we are bunkrupt, and in a systematic decline.
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EU is a mega PONZI scheme.
extraordinary times require extraordinary measures,
united we stand, divided we fall
and types of quotes like this show the sign of desperation and helplessness of leaders.
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I will say a couple of things (and do with me what you want :o)
1. Eastern and Central Europe put back behind Western Europe economic development pace of course our Russian fault, by 40 years delay, a gap.
But on the other hand honestly I think they were always European back-woods, even before USSR started on them.
I mean, you haven't heard of some shiny economic achievements there even before us. So what we have spoiled there is a questionable thing as minimum.
One thing for sure we did not let them capitalise on the Marshall's plan, no access to that money, restored post war on Russia's expense, and yes, sadly, a-la Russian idea of happiness mode.
2. Rus. TV explained today approx. what Mark Mardell writes but as I saw the main Kremlin channel, it was with a def. note of
"a--ha! the "Westerners" don't want to help poor relatives". But then even the Kremlin channel stressed that Angela Merkel said - to view each case country-per-country basis, out of the question the combined bail-out package that was asked for (forgot how many billions? 190? it was?)
- "But on a country-by-country - we'll see".
So even Kremlin does not rule out that there will be help. Though of course we still feel offended LOL that all ran away from us so quickly.
3. Re "friends for the fair weather"; yes, heard as long as 2 months back from Baltics, that the talk was "the crisis would be better to live through with Russia, not with the EU."
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And as recently said our Ambassador to Ukraine (about to be kicked out of there for straightforward talk about Ukrainian leadership, unfitting his diplomatic status):
"And I won't say more - or I will again say something." :o)
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More shoes will drop. Not just the Eastern European fiasco but the bubble in US Treasury bonds. It's a disaster waiting to happen. Tomorrow the DOW looks to open down about 300 to 350 points. The Asian and European markets probably won't wait that long, the'll beat the NYSE to the punch. The bad news just keeps coming. It's a test, survival of the fittest. It will test who has a real union and who just has talk.
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"While SOCIALISM is solidarity, sharing the loses, lies and tribal thinking."
Right, solidarity stinks, let's all be greedy selfish bastards, it's so much better, and look where it just got us !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Whither are we drifting? They keep talking about us being in a recession. This is no recession, it's a full blow depression and this is just the beginning of it. It's been seen before but not in most of our lifetimes. That is why we don't recognize it. A glimpse into Europe's future, maybe all of our futures.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eih67rlGNhU
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threnodious
"Marcus
". . . you've been to Bulgaria? You can talk with them freely and openly?"
Why not? "
I understand all they have to eat there is reindeer meat. They've been piling it up since forever waiting for Joka Booka to visit so that he will feel at home. Reindeer meat is not to my liking at all, in fact I can't stand the stuff. I much prefer moose meat :-)
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Two comments from me:
1. As someone rightly noticed, the Cold War logic is till quite popular: 'the East', 'Eastern Europe', etc.
Where's Central Europe then? Where's the South? Where is the North? Is Finland 'western' despite the fact that Helsinki lies much more to the East than Prague?
2. As to the coverage given by the 'western' press to the recent summit, I also noticed some confusion. The so called 'rescue plan' was not really rejected since it had never been suggested by anyone (apart from the Hungarian prime minister, in a move targeted at gaining more domestic support).
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Mr Mardell it is good to note you stress as often as you are prone to do that "...it (your Blog content) is not a defence of the EU.."
All the same on reviewing each Blog since 2008 I cannot find one that 'stressed' in any way that British Citizens were entitled to feel aggrieved by their UK Government's refusal to hold a Referendum on Membership of the EU. There have been a number of EU-led issues in which the UK's Citizens' attitude to the EU could be addressed as well as that of the present Government, but alas you always 'stress' the over-riding No.10 or Parliamentary viewpoint which every UK Poll shows is diametrically at odds with British Public Opinion.
Of course, you indirectly refer to the British any number of times and it may be you will argue it is for the BBC British Political Blogs to refer to this matter in more detail: But, as they do not, I just wonder how much 'stress' all you BBC Journalists' suffer from a clear BBC Editorial line that, "EU is good", no matter what the scenario!?
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#50, ikamaskeip,
I very much agree with your analysis and one 'good' thing about the continuing crisis is that some of the smokescreen is clearing and doors are being opened for us mere mortals to see the innards of the EU a bit clearer. The longer the current 'great depression' continues the more the visibility of the EU will clear, so look forward to June when the EU votes, as this could well prove very interesting, unless we have all been reduced to the level of sheep by then, or only 'approved' parties can stand.
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Having lived in Spain near Barcelona for the last 12 years, I agree strongly with Betuli 31 above. In the European partnership of States The Latin Arch, particularly France and Spain are beginning to look outwars and with good reason.
In 2009 life is going to get even more complicated for poor Mark Mardell with the Union for the Mediterranean headquarters being set up in Barcelona. Germany saw this as a way round the impasse over the Lisbon draft treaty and insisted that all EU member states should belong.
A lot is going on which gets little attention outside Spain. The Russian Prsident Dmitri Medvedev has just compeated a two day visit to Madrid and the Chinese Permier, I think Premier, is to visit soon. Our Foreign Minister has met with Secretary of State Clinton in Washing and they both came out all smiles.
Within the last Year we have also had visits from the King of Saudi Arabia, and the Presidents of Brazil and and our Hugo from Venezuela. The significance of all this is nor really clear, but for sure Spain is not looking towards Great Britian. Europe, all of it, is considered much more interesting and important. As a Londoner I feel sorry for this, however I firmly believe it to be true.
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All we could agree that Eastern Europe needs support from the EU, but this has to come mainly from the Western European countries bordering with the East, that is, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Austria and Greece.
As Old Man-Mike points out, Southwestern Europe has to concentrate in helping the south bank of the Mediterranean through the recently created Union, mainly the Maghreb and particularly Morocco.
Millions of Maghrebis live in Spain, France and Italy, and at the same time these European countries are the biggest investors in the Maghreb.
It is in the interest of all Europe to boost the development of North Africa if we want to brake illegal immigration or the increase of terrorism.
So, indeed, East Europe needs help to overcome the financial crisis, but not only them. Europe is a reality of concentric circles and every region should cooperate to reassure prosperity in its neighbouring countries.
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Old-Man-Mike (52)
This Latin Arch of the EU Nation States that border the Mediterranean is a fig-leaf for France to reassert its leadership of a Bloc of neighbouring countries.
De Gaulle's "Non" to Harold Macmillan for the UK to join the Common Market was a rebuff simply because France could not tolerate Great Britain having continued links with both the USA and the Commonwealth as he saw, in his mind's eye, that GB joining the Common Market would dilute French authority and manipulitive control of the organisation.
De Gaulle simply recognised that expansion of the Common Market would reduce the influence of of France upon the original 6 Common Market countries as the 6 became a greater number.
Now the EU has expanded to 27 member States, France is scrabbling around trying to engineer another clique of countries that it can dominate, manipulate and "influence".
If Spain, Italy and Portugal want to be bossed by France and link up with the North African Countries across the other side of the Mediterranean then good luck to them.
I think the Spanish Socialist government is being a bit naive cuddling up to France as the wealth generating nations are the ones that border the North Sea and the Baltic as they have natural resources in greater depth such as coal, timber and mineral ores!
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ikamaskeip, no one seriously talks about holding a referendum on our EU membership because, thankfully, only a tiny minority of people around the country are naive enough to think we'd somehow be better off outside the EU.
The idea of closing ourselves off from our largest trading partners (who buy over 50% of our exports by value) makes about as much sense as hitting one's self over the head with a hammer.
Please, lets keep the discussion on serious issues, not absurd ones.
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Who is asking today for solidarity?????
The failed ones.
do we want to share the losses with the greedy ones?????
the accussations of shame are of the weak and for the weak.. strongest wins..
everyone is equal before the law, and fat cats cannot protect each other..
How can this guy calm the markets down, or help himself because he cannot help us anymore???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uxb0JHqzlA
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What will EU memebers also in the MU like Spain, France, and Italy do when the MU passes rules which are incompatable with and mutually exclusive of the EU rules? What will they do when complying with one violates the other? Since the MU will be made up of members who are mostly not in then EU, will be autonomous, and will have political and economic interests different from the EU's, there is every likelihood of this happening many times. It sounds like one more dumb European idea designed to create a mini Empire for France to rule to me.
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Mark Mardell wrote:
"How will you feel if Gordon Brown asks the British taxpayer to help bail out Latvian banks?"
Well, firstly, he will not ask. He will instruct. The British taxpayer is not going to be asked anything.
Secondly, there aren't any "Latvian" banks. The banks operating in Latvia are Hansa, Nord and so on. Clearly western european, even in name. So the taxpayer would be bailing out western european shareholders, not Latvian banks. Hansa bank is now called "Swedbank", by the way. The parent group took complete control in 1998, and changed the name very recently.
Thirdly, the shareholders of these banks are the blood relatives of the RBS shareholders.
The Queen owns a considerable shareholding of RBS, via the merger of her pet bank Coutts with the giant in 2005.
Now the queen is a blood relative of the major shareholders of Swedbank. But we knew that.
So really, Mr Mardell, the question ought to be put as follows:
"How does the british taxpayer feel about Gordon Brown, ostensibly representing LABOUR, going ahead and bailing out the relatives of the people he has already bailed out in the UK?"
Make no mistake, it is the shareholders of these privately owned empires who are saved by the massive influx of public money. The directors, who are crucified in the press, are merely the people appointed by the shareholders to do as the dominant shareholders require. Directors are lackies. they are servants. They do as they are told.
And when the public need a sacrifice, they are the sacrificial offering.
Shareholders are the invisible power behind the corporate throne, but in the UK they are conspicuously visible as the power in front of the political throne. Same people.
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"The idea of closing ourselves off from our largest trading partners (who buy over 50% of our exports by value) makes about as much sense as hitting one's self over the head with a hammer.
Please, lets keep the discussion on serious issues, not absurd ones. "
Who spoke of "closing off" europe from the UK?
Why is that UK sovereignty must be cast in the light of complete and utter removal from the rest of Europe?
I mean, is that the threat? Is that what the EU threatens to states outside the EU? That they will be "cut off"?
It is this poster who brings absurdity to the debate. Clearly the EU cannot threaten to cut off everyone who remains outside the EU. That is absolutely absurd.
This timOfBrum character is hysterical and loads the debate with ill feeling. It declares the people who want UK sovereignty of any kind to be insane.
Tim, I for one grow very tired of being ridiculed and sneered at because I question this incarnation of a united Europe.
Your words and tone of argument are precisely what is wrong with the current EU. Very righteous, very emotional, and very much based in fear mongering.
Nobody has proved anything about the benefits of massively centralized economic policy. The debate is open.
Feel free to engage with the debate.
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#2 MarcusAuriliusII
"That gap exists in the wealthier EU states like Britain because the leaders never got permission through a democratic vote to sign up for the obligations under those treaties. This is because when you come down to it, the UK like the other EU members is not a democratic country at all but a despotic tyranny"
LOL. Firstly, elections are held every few years in the UK. People can choose who they vote for. Sure there has been no referendum on European affairs since the UK join the EC, but there isn't a referendum on nearly every vote that goes through parliament. The whole concept is known as parliamentary democracy, most political scientists will tell you there are some important differences between that and "despotic tyranny". Secondly, given that people have voted for their representatives and could have chosen someone pledging to withdraw from the EU, and haven't, perhaps your first step in "respecting the will of the people" could be to acknowledge that not everyone takes such a simplistic view of democracy, economics, trade relations, diplomacy, global warming etc... than to think these problems will be easier to solve as a small country with next to no power, compared to say, USA, EU, Russia, China, India, Brazil etc...
The fact you are willing to call member states of the EU as tyrannical and despotic shows how much you must be a product of western democracy. Anyone who has experienced true tyranny and despotism wouldn't use the words so lightly, or so preposterously. Have you ever considered why the EU makes democracy and free speech a prerequisite for membership? That would seem to make their plans harder if they wanted despotic, tyrannical power.
p.s Time for a history level too I'm afraid, Alexander the Great may have wished to conquer Europe, though he is best known for trying to conquer Asia (to the extent he knew of its size), so unfortunately he, Hitler and Stalin can't discuss failed European domination over bridge.
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A 'pyrrhic victory' in an iminent NOSEDIVE
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@timbrum (55)
the EU isn't a necessary element if it comes to trading. Abolish the EU and we'd all be better off without its humongous amount of rules and requirements which disproportionately burden mediumsized and small businesses.
Trade does not require an EU.
Besides, without the EU Britain could resume trade with India, Australia, Canada et al without having to ask Brussels for permission.
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NOW we are witnessing the fake artificial stimulation of markets, as well as inflation of maket data.
Manipulation same as fake science leads to self-infliction
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#60 - olyus1
You are right to take MA2 to task about his charaterisation of EU members as 'despotic tyrannies' but that is simply a message from a wind up merchant.
Lurking beneath the rant there are elements of truth. Yes, it is the case that the British people have never elected a government pledged to withdraw from the EU but please tell me when there was a collection of candidates whose stated position that was. I am not a Eurosceptic but, in fairness to those who are, they do not have and have never had credible representation.
Secondly, your defence of parliamentary democracy, laudable though it is, flies in the face of reality. It is being systematically dismembered by the incumbents before your very eyes.
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Buzet23 and Comment 51.
Thanks for your support: I always read your Comments and reflect on their mature, commonsense approach.
Yes, the present economic crisis is certainly showing up the so-called EU unity through strength in numbers argument: The 'Big' 4 have all but dumped the rest as they scramble to 'protect' their own economies.
The Czech Conference resolutions are almost laughable when you actually read what they agreed not to agree on! I did refer in another Blog to Mr Mardell's "..clutching a fig-leaf.." to explain France's attitude, but, in reality it would need the largest foliage in history to cover up the EU's unsightly EUrocratic close-up!
Mr Mardell's Blogs are always interesting and do shed light from various angles on the EU's EUrotocracy and general workings. However, it is disappointing how he manages the content to avoid nearly all mention of the current unhappiness and disappointment of the British Public with its own Government's attitude/policy that so obviously neglects to reflect Public Opinion.
At least, as an anti-EU, I presume that the UK is dis-satisfied with the EU!? But, how would one really know? The cowardice of the UK Governments and Political Parties combined with the deliberate EU ignoring of the supposed wishes of Britons in Research Poll after Poll, cannot leave 'anti' or 'pro' with any real confidence in the future.
The so-called "Democratic-defecit" as described by so many on these Blogs: This is the one major concern I have about the UK membership of the EU and the longterm prospects of the EU. It surely cannot be a positive or effective policy to blindly ignore 60,000,000 people in the hope their ill-will or otherwise will simply fade? It does not appear to have done so in 25+ years and I fear there is real social-political unrest ahead unless this matter is soon properly, officially addressed and resolved.
It astonishes me that the BBC, and Mr Mardell's Blog is a case in point, simply refuses any and every opportunity to register and record the very real disquiet of the British Citizen. As a publicly owned body the BBC really should and could do a much better service for these Isles and the EU by taking a more responsible role in Editorial coverage of the UK-EU Membership debate than it has done upto the present time.
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Re: 55
"The idea of closing ourselves off from our largest trading partners (who buy over 50% of our exports by value) makes about as much sense as hitting one's self over the head with a hammer."
But trade with the EU consists of two elements: buying [imports] and selling [exports]. Since we import far more from the other member countries than we export to them our EU trading account shows a deficit - in the red in simple terms.
That deficit for the period 1997-2005 was 72.5 bn GBPs. More up to date figures can be found in the Pink Book 2008 published by the Office of National Statistics.
On this basis we create more jobs for the other member countries than they create for us so do you really think they would want to be cut off from us if we left the EU?
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To threnodio (64):
Doesn't both the UKIP and the BNP set candidates to all constituencies? Thus if there was a real need, a real want for people to get UK out of EU, shouldn't people vote for candidates from these parties?
Also shouldn't the FPTP voting system make for a vocal and active sizeable minority to seize the power? In 2005 general elections Labour got the parliamentary majority with only approx. 35% of the national vote.
Think about that. 35% and you get the power. That is crazy.
In my mind the real question is, if eurosceptics think that they are right, that majority of Brits want out of the UK, why haven't they succeeded in general elections? Maybe because majority of Brits don't think along their line?
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ikamaskeip @ #65
I am sympathetic to the feelings and view of many people who detest the EU but I think you do Mark and the BBC an injustice.
It is the presumption of many anti-EU voices to vocalise and write that, if given the choice, the European nations would determine by vote to leave the EU.
Clearly this is untested.
On the other hand, the real opinions range from those who voice and write their view that nation states such as the UK should leave the EU forthwith and sever all ties to the continent, through various shades of loose to tighter free market relationships with the EU states to those who wish to see a successful United States of Europe similar in many ways to the the USA where the individual states (some like California with populations larger than some of the EU nations) operate politically and administratively at State level and also within the Constitution and framework of a Federal Government.
How should Mark and the BBC report the nature of Europe today? The EU is not the be-all-and-end-all of life in Europe! People live day-to-day in Europe with fears about jobs, fears about social unrest, fears about local wars such as Russia/Georgia, fears about Europe's dependency on fossil fuels, fears about Global Climate change . . . all sorts of issues that Mark has written aboutn within this Blog.
It is we few stalwart followers of Mark's Blog that time and time again bring the latest topic around to whether we, as freely speaking/writing individuals, like/hate/disbelieve/tolerate/mistrust [delete as appropriate] the EU and its complexities.
The fact is that some people will loathe the EU, some will love it and many will be likely to be either ambivalent or ignorant of the EU Project and its purpose or at least somewhere between to polar opposites.
I think Mark does his best to present the EU with its warts and all (for example, this thread is about the gap between the two halves of Europe and how the Council of Ministers are struggling to bridge the economic gap and his latest comment is about the inanity of having "Comment/Feedback Booths" in every town square within the 27 Nations!).
More importantly, Mark also visits and reflects upon the views of Europeans with backgrounds that are as diverse as Martial Art Tutors to Spanish fishermen . . . their fears are not about the EU but simply how modernity of life has very different challenges for them within Europe ranging from fear of unemployment to fear of health care.
I think Mark does a great job relating these views and it is us, his Blog Commentators who keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again about whether the EU is a good thing or a bad thing when , in reality, it is our National Governments and our faulty national democracies, national politicians and our corrupt political processes that are the real failure for those living within the Europe of the 21st Century.
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IKA wrote:
"It astonishes me that the BBC, and Mr Mardell's Blog is a case in point, simply refuses any and every opportunity to register and record the very real disquiet of the British Citizen"
You reckon?
The way I see it, Mardell's blog is an EU kicking machine. If we kicked the EU any more around here, it would be a football.
I also take issue that "the British Citizen" cares very much about politics. It would be nice, but I don't see the evidence.
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Jukka_Rohila @ #67
You are, of course, correct to suggest that the UKIP and BNP political parties do offer disengagement from Europe as part of their political objectives but they also offer political options that many people might feel unattractive at best and reprehensible at worst.
The problem for Britons (and probably many Europeans) is that the EU - and issues surrounding this feature of modern European life - is a single issue political question whereas General Elections and the poular vote are about plurality of choices/options and many other factors that people relate to in their daily lives - health care, schooling, jobs, housing, policing, pensions just to name a handful of topics close to many peoples' lives.
Commentators within Mark's Blog seem to feel that the EU is a vitally important feature of daily life - it might be for some people but for many it is the least of their concerns.
Electing the BNP or UKIP could be a popular choice for those who hate the EU but they could introduce government of incompetence or even downright stupidity though single issue politics and thus the elective choice is not as clear cut or savoury as you might think.
For Britons, it would be far more commendable if the Conservatives and Labour Parties (as the two main political parties fo rthe UK) were to adopt clear blue water between them over membership of the EU and provide the electorate with a clear choice of (I speak in relative terms) "good governance" with "clear choices" over Europe - unfortunately since 1973, neither political party can be discerned as having a really different view about membership of the EU and thus the Anti-EU commentators have two hopes for the UK ever withdrawing from the EU . . . "Bob Hope" or "No Hope!"
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oily1
"there isn't a referendum on nearly every vote that goes through parliament."
Yes but most votes that go through Parliament don't involve ceding the country's sovereignty to a supranational power that is unaccountable to Britain's voters. But even if it did, Parliament is hardly an independent body because in Britain's government, there is no separation of powers between the legislative and executive branches and the PM's party is almost always in the majority and will go along with whatever he tells them to do. Even so, Parliament could be bypassed on Lisbon simply by Brown signing it without even a pretense of checks and balances of Parliamentary review.
"Have you ever considered why the EU makes democracy and free speech a prerequisite for membership?"
What difference does it make? European countries have no real cultural history of democracy even in Britain. There hasn't even been a national debate on the EU. The opposition parties don't make an issue of it and the public doesn't seem to care except for an occasional whimper. The publics in these countries are and always have been psychologically cowed by government. It's a top down system where the ministers are virtually beyond reach of the ordinary citizens. And that's in the lower house, the upper house is strictly for those priveleged enough to become or be born into being lords.
What's more, free speech is sharply curtailed by the government compared to a truely free country like the US. Between the government being able to squelch or squash discussion of a subject it finds too sensitive and unreasonably constructed restrictive libel laws, there are many areas where people don't dare speak their minds in public. Yes they are all despotic tyrannies and I do not say it lightly and I do know exactly what it means. Democracy is a pretense, a sham in these countries, hardly better than in places like Thailand or Malaysia.
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#67 threnodio
Thanks (kiitos) Jukka Rohila, more of less what I was going to say. People do have real choices regarding who they send to Westminster they just choose not to send anti-EU candidates. Even within the main stream parties, you can't tell me there aren't plenty of people in the conservatives who would like to withdraw. Again, what happens to them? Why haven't they taken power in the UK?
It's the same old irony. People on this message board complain like hell that the EU is foisting things on them, namely Lisbon, when in reality national governments choose how/whether Lisbon is adopted. The answer to Lisbon in these peoples eyes? Give power back to the parliaments! It is the very fact that we have national parliaments elected by the people that is leading to Lisbon. Deal with.
In the mean time, why not focus your energy on making British parliamentary elections (FPTP) as democratic as European elections (proportional)? I think that is a project we could all agree on. You may find out if your secret oppressed majorities really exist. I get to watch people with no political responsibility, in regards to trade, diplomacy etc... having to start accepting it and acting accordingly.
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To Menedemus 54
I have to agree with you re de Gaulle and MacMillan. It was said at the time the Germany i.e. West Germany wanted us and France needed us. Times change, France is cuddling up to Spain rather than the other way round.
Actually, the idea of any country domination, manipulation or bossing around Spain is a bit funny really. Hitler tried to get Franco to join the Axis powers after the fall of France. Not unreasonable one might think considering the German air force was a considerable factor in the Nationalist winning the Civil War of 1936 to 39. General Franco said NO. Or at least, give me oil and food and I will consider the matter, which was as good as saying no.
Nobody pushes the Spanish around - commercially, politically or on the sports fiel for that matter. Ever watched Nadal playing a tennis match or Alonso driving a racing car?
It is said that the French are our neighbours but the Moroccans are our cousins. The distance across the Straights of Gibraltar is about half the distance across the Dover Straights. We have had very close relationships with North Africa going back into pre-history. Today we get much of are oil and gas from North Africa not to mention the 600,000 Moroccans that work in Spain.
To TimOfBrum
I agree with you - money talks. Britain would continue to be a net importer whether or not it was within the E.U. and accept E.U. rules as does Norway, Switzerland and even the USA.
To MA II
Well Marcus it is actually worse than that. All 27 members of the EU are members of the MU plus 16 countries from around the Mediterranean making 43 countries in all. These include Turkey and Greece, Syria and Israel, Egypt and Libya. I live 15 Km from the Headquarters and full expect to hear the row from here when they all get together.
The MU will probably work pretty well at the commercial and even social level, but politically, in my opinion, it will put even Washington in fighting in the shade.
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Menedemus and Comment 68.
I admire your trust in Mr Mardell and the BBC's integrity.
Myself, I do not for one moment of any waking day believe in that integrity. If it is your serious contention Mr Mardell follows his own views and not the direct, specific instruction of the BBC Editorial line then you sir are frankly living in a world that has long since departed this earthly presence!
Would that it were so! That Richard Dimbleby strode into camera-radio shot and ascribed the devilishness of Belsen to the perpetrators without by or leave!
Unfortunately, those halcyon BBC days are long gone. Mr Mardell is a fine exponent of the modern BBC journalist, but unbiased reporter of news, he is not. Europe is the 'site', whether it is the 'story' is another issue entirely.
In 1945 my late father was one of the unfortunate British soldiers who came across Belsen: Dimbleby talked to every man and cried with them. You sir, should realise Mr Mardell talks to the people that matter: The humanity of it all is not quite in the remit.
This is not the place to indulge in critiques of the BBC, however, Mr Mardell must surely on occasion set-up the Blog with the semblance of a heavy heart. At least, in the interests of valid journalistic expertise, I do hope so. How else would any man of educated sensitivity report credulously on an organisation&institution that they know full well is loathed by their own countrymen.
I am constantly amazed how anti-EU commentators such as myself get labelled no matter what we write. ".. It is the presumption of many anti/EU.." when of course I actually specifically pointed out no one knew the British Citizens feelings!
"..How should Mark and the BBC report the nature of the EU today..?"
This is your questiion. Your challenge to people of my view?
I reply> Why honestly sir! With unadulterated honesty! The single commodity the BBC Editorial product lacks whenever it deals with Europe. It is a report of Europe but not of the British and are not the British Citizenry an equal and therefore worthy part of the account of Europe.
Mr Mardell is no doubt an honourable man and we shall read his contributions to the UK/European debate with interest as the story unfolds, but, it is sadly a very, very long time since I was able to place any reliance on the reportage of the individual BBC Journalist.
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#67 - Jukka_Rohila
I would like to think you are right but the bottom line is that voting for the BNP would amount to a voting en masse for an extreme hard right party which most Brits would find unacceptable. The UKIP could make considerable gains, especially in England but their problem is that people opposed to the Labour government will go back in droves to the Tories. The Liberals might have the same problem in the south.
Basically, if the English are going to break free of the status quo, they will have to look to the nationalists elsewhere in Britain. Until then, it is a two horse race. Tragic really in what claims to be the mother of democracies.
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Marcus
"Democracy is a pretense, a sham in these countries"
Yes - tragic isn't it?
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#70 - Menedemus
Apologies. I responded to Jukka before reading your correct response. I would, however, add that the EU question is one of the few that is genuinely cross party. You will find enthusiasts in the Tory ranks and sceptics in Labour so the chances of the clear blue water you are looking for are close to zero.
For once, I am in line with what appears to be the popular view. Let the people decide directly. Only two problems with that - the constitutional question about parliamentary sovereignty and, rather more frighteningly, if there is one thing the political parties trust less than each other, it is the people who only appear to matter every four or five years.
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Old Man Mike, you mean Denmark, Britain, and Poland are members of the "Mediteranean Union?" Why is it called the Mediteranean Union then? Why isn't it called something like the EU and others? So with 43 members 27 of whom are in the EU and 16 not, a coalition of the 16 non EU members and only 6 EU members could pass laws which contradict the EU's laws. Then it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. Now that's what I call Euro-think..Euro-unthink.... Euro-thinkless.... Euro-$%^#@^!+
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ikamaskeip @ #74
No need to call me Sir. I may be beknighted but I am not knighted.
I truly regret the fact that your father had to participate in the rescue of the inmates of the Belsen Concentration Camp and having to witness the aftermath of atrocities committed there. I think that many people would have cried at the awful sight of what the NAZI regime and SS Camp Guards had done to the concentration camp inmates during their period of being in power. I am glad he was there to bring relief to the camp's inmates.
I suspect that we will never have a meeting of minds as to whether Mark's Blog is a genuine effort by one BBC Editor to put his thoughts about Europe to others without expressing his opinion about the EU and thus exposing a bias one way or another.
I suggest that we simply agree to disagree about the alleged bias of Mark's thoughts towards the EU.
I will continue to enjoy reading Mark's thoughts on Europe, the EU and his accounts of meetings with individual citizens of Europe and express my views in response as ardently as you. The fact that we may disagree about Mark's thoughts any bias or lack thereof is actually irrelevant as the opinions that we hold can be put to comment for all the world to read and either agree or disagree with us.
It is my belief that there are and will be going forward more people supportive of Mark's thoughts being expressed in the way they are than there are people critical of his Blogged thoughts being baised/unbalanced/wrong/inaccurate [delete as appropriate] or whatever.
As to the integrity of the BBC and its news reporting being biased, you and I may find ourselves sharing common ground.
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threnodious, is there even a poll asking Brits how they feel about the EU, the Constitution, Lisbon, and other aspects of the EU treaty? How many hours of serious discussions were devoted on TV to the meaning of the Red Line opt outs. Surely there are legal experts on both sides of the issue who have read all the documents, actually understood them, parsed them out, and have informed opinions. When and where have they been thoroughly aired? Is there a poll showing how Brits feel about their immigration policy? The way immigrants from other cultures, say Moslems are integrated or not integrated into British society? Where is the public debate? Where are the newspaper editorials, TV debates, discussion of what the benefits, detriments, and risks are for being in the EU? Where are the expert opinions about keeping the pound versus adopting the Euro? Where are the discussions about where the EU is heading and where Britain would be heading in it versus outside of it? It seems to me that the media and politicians discuss everything EXCEPT what is important.
Brits who criticized the lack of depth of debating the issues in the recent US Presidential campaign should consider that they have not had a debate on the most important issues facing them and it's been decades waiting. What kind of democracy is that? Especially when one entity in the most important media, BBC dominates it and interjects its own opions at every opportunity. I have listened to discussions where guests were invited to speak to opinions that are not popular at BBC such as the American attorney Alan Dirschowitz and he was cut off, shouted down, not given a chance to express his thoughts fully and openly again and again. BBC does not allow free and open debate when it doesn't like what it hears yet it is the 800 pound gorilla in the British media. You don't even hear much protest against that. Free speech and democracy in Britain? The place is a joke.
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Did the summit fail the east? you ask.
Quite simply, NO. The east failed itself when after shedding Communism tried to buy favours from the Americans by accepting deregulation hook, line, and sinker
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veloswagman, now that is the kind of European frankness I've come to know and enjoy, Europeans blaming all their problems on the US. And wasn't it America that demanded the EU admit all those former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact nations and take over subsidy of their welfare states to increase the geopolitical power of Europe? Americans like Chirac, deVillepin, and Schroeder?.....You mean they aren't? Are you saying the Europeans did it to themselves out of megalomania again and wound up in the soup the way they always do? Hmmm. Looks like the time for another Euro-cannibal feast is nearing. Who will go for the other guys throat first or will they all jump at each other all at once? No honor among thieves I tell ya, none at all. Nope!
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"Are you saying the Europeans did it to themselves out of megalomania again and wound up in the soup the way they always do? "
Jesus, what an ignorant, stupid comment.
This crisis WAS SOLELY STARTED BY US FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, anyone admits here where I live, in the so-called financial capital of the world (NYC).
Go and educate yourself on the subject.
BTW central states ARE welfare states, no question about it and it wasn't an accident they are pretty much out of power now (Obama's cabinet or Dem power centers are all coastal, mostly form Cali sans single H. Reid of NV).
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"...Europeans blaming all their problems on the US. And wasn't it America that demanded the EU admit all those former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact nations and take over subsidy of their welfare states to increase the geopolitical power of Europe? "
Fair point, I think. There is a tendency in Europe to blame America for the ills of the world. It is something the east and the west have in common.
In fact, if there is common ground between Russia and the USA that can help them heal their rift, it is that Europeans always blame both of them for the problems in Europe.
From what I been reading recently, the current financial fiasco is the combined work of all nations.
The US banks needed to increase their equity so they could lend more to cover their rising bad debts. The European banks wanted to increase their lending the same way. So the US banks sold derivatives of their debt to the european banks, to increase their apparent asset value. The european banks bought the derivatives for precisely the same purpose, inventing the money they needed to buy the derivatives with inflated values placed on the derivatives themselves. All together, they kept swapping phoney paper back and forth, each one claiming the paper they bought was worth more than the paper they sold.
So how did this happen?
Well, turns out nobody regulates the valuation of derivatives. Governments regulate the fractional lending ratio, and demand a certain percentage of "assets" be held by banks, but they do not regulate what constitutes a real asset and what constitutes a phoney piece of paper.
And whose idea were all these various phoney bits of paper? Without a hint of exaggeration, these were the highest paid individuals in the world. these were the top of the heap folks. The sort of folks the politicians wine and dine with if they ever get the chance.
The same folks who are now telling our "representatives" what to do about the mess they made.
Does their advice include a reduction of the money these fine people earn?
Ah, no. See, if you want the best people, you have to pay the best money.
What a colossal farce.
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Mark:
I think that the summit didn't fail the East, But...They should have done more to help in the ideas....
~Dennis Junior~
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