Latvian hard times - getting harder?
Latvia's veteran Prime Minister Ivars Godmanis scraped home by eleven votes, surviving a vote of no confidence that would have forced the resignation of his government.
He'd told MPs that getting rid of him and his coalition wouldn't solve Latvia's economic problems.
Those problems are grave: the crisis that affects us all has hit Latvia hard. I've put some statistics, courtesy of BBC Research, at the end of this post.
After last month's riots, the policemen outside parliament were taking no chances. A line of them spread across the street and stopped people walking past the parliament building where the no-confidence debate was raging.
On the steps of the parliament, military policemen in camouflage fatigues and tan quilted jackets stood ready for any trouble. But the crowd which gathered seemed more curious than committed.
One man had a large Latvian flag; another held a very makeshift cardboard sign with the word "Resign!" scrawled on it in marker pen. The bare trees outside the building had little Latvian flags on them and people ironically laid at their base gifts for the MPs, including an axe and a spade. "Chop yourself down and bury yourself," was, I imagined, the intended message, although no-one could explain it to me.
But the group of 50 or so people faded away as the debate inside the building carried on. As someone who worked in Westminster for years, it was a joy to be able to wander around the chamber, on the same level as MPs, taking photos and recording sound effects.
I listened to one MP - Atis Kampars from the main opposition party New Era - say that yesterday the farmers had blocked the city and forced the resignation of the agricultural minister, who he portrayed as rather hapless and almost unaware of his own fate.
He said that yesterday it was tractors, but if the government didn't resign soon, it would be lorries or buses in a month or two and the whole lot of them would be forced out.
Later, I caught up with him and asked him what difference it would make if the government did resign.
"I respect how hard the prime minister works, but our main problem in Latvia is the people's catastrophic lack of trust in government. If the government resigns, at least there's a hope we could establish a wide, strong coalition which can make the tough decisions we need."
But, I said, everyone I had met, from farmers to business leaders, had just as low opinion of the opposition as of the government.
"Of course we know that. We need to change our constitution so we can hold new elections before the full term is over. So we need this wide coalition led by someone outside politics who's loyal and faithful and could win the people's trust back. That's why we are not putting up our own candidate for prime minister: we know we are not popular and we need someone professional, technical to take the job."
A difficult moment has been reached when politicians admit that the whole bunch of them is despised and they start talking of neutral experts to lead a Government of National Unity.
The problem is that the trust has evaporated and it is hard to see how any government can avoid the deeply painful measures that are being demanded by the International Monetary Fund in return for its loan. These are hard times for many Lativans, but they will probably get much harder.
After the vote I checked outside parliament to see whether crowds were gathering afresh. Only a couple of policemen stood ready, and the passersby just glanced at the building.
Earlier, one of the small band of demonstrators - who told me that he'd been at last month's protest-turned-riot - predicted that nothing would happen that night. "It's too cold. Minus six. They will wait until it gets warmer."
Latvia's political class needs to somehow regain people's confidence before then - but I can't for the life of me think what they can do.
§
Here are those statistics mentioned above.
• Unemployment rose to 8.3% in October 2008; 9.2% in November and 10.4% in December (this is the highest rate in the EU27 after Spain, source Eurostat). 10.4% is also the estimate given by the EC for 2009, while 2010 could see the figure rising up to 11.4%.
• The Latvian State Employment Agency said that in one month, the number of unemployed people has increased by 9,370 (from 67,065 registered unemployed at the beginning of December to 76,435 at the end. This is in a total population 2.27m.
• The agency explains that workers of different levels of qualification are losing their jobs: auxiliary workers and cleaners as well as specialists with higher education are being fired. Dismissals are taking place in all sectors of production. The number of employers' registered vacancies also continues to decrease.
• Average gross monthly wages and salaries (third semester 2008): 486 Lats (approx. 691 euros).
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Britain, Greece, Latvia, Bulgaria, Spain , Germany and so it goes on spreading...
It must be truly wonderfully comforting for all the pro-EU Commentators to know that with the all-knowing-all seeing-all powerful-all embracing European Union in place the Economic downturn is being dealt with so smoothly and easily by this "we know better than you little Citizens" EUrotocracy?
It is a measure of how entrenched EU corrupt vested interests and double-speak has become that not one of the political leadership of these nations is prepared to come out and state the obvious: The EU in a real crisis has proven itself about as useful as the proverbial one-legged man in an ar#e kicking contest!
I would laugh but the grimness of the reality of the situation for Citizens forced to abide by one-size-fits-all absurdism makes tears a more appropriate response.
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ikamaskeip
You're post is yet another nonsensical Eurohating-lover post.
When it comes down to it, the EU politicians can only do what the national politicians have allowed them to do. What is so difficult to understand that?
Imagine the EU would have a real federal govt taxes, directly elected president..etc.
It is very clear that if this were the case, then the EU could and would have taken a much more decisive move.
Think before you waste calories by copying stuff out of The Sun.
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Gheryando (2)
I agree with you. Mark's blog item will incur the wrath of the EU haters but this is a Europe-wide problem that simply differs to a greater or lesser degree form one country ot the next dependent upon the state of the individual county's economy, haw badly it is affected by public and personal debt and how, due to the Recession that could become a Depression if it persists is seen as being the fault of local and national governments.
The only thing I would add is that I believe that it will not be long before, just like the Latvia, the UK Government starts to feel the wrath of the British electorate who daily see incompetence or stupitidy being exercised by the current UK National government in response to the calamity that is going to occur within the UK in regard to loss of employment, unrepayable growing personal debt and yet allows bailed-out Bankersto still be able to pay themselves fat-cat bonuses regardless of the billions their Banks have received in tax-payers monies.
I look forward to the demise of this current UK governement who are as bankrupt of ideas as the country is bankrupt.
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My view is opposite to the first poster. By my reckoning (which by it's nature makes it subjective i guess), if not for the broad base that being part of the EU provides, the damage could be far worse, and more quickly.
It's no sinecure to go through difficult times, but in the case of Latvia, it may well be political immaturity in a 'new democracy' that has created a bigger mess than it could be.
It's my view the current Latvian government needs to consider their position, and their success rate so far, or lack of, but the people of Latvia will need to rethink their idea of a democratic political system too. (The same as the UK. PR is long overdue)
Let's not forget it took most of the west of Europe a few centuries to establish entrenched democratic structures, and even then they got it wrong more than once.
Given what's been reported here on the BBC and elsewhere, if i were the Latvian PM, i'd be considering using any loaned money wisely, and concentrate on updating infrastructure in the country, including an overhaul of the education system to reflect a 21st century perspective. That includes fiscal education.
But more than anything else, the rules of engagement in the Latvian financial market need to be reviewed, and if neccessary, rebuilt. We've all learnt from this current challenge that people in highly paid, and seemingly 'secure' financial and political positions are bereft of any consideration towards ordinary folk, persuing instead a remarkable avaricious lust for profit, both corporate and personal. Regulations to hold excess in check have been ignored, or watered down. Those charged with administering companies and financial institutions have been found wanting, and the people need to see.....consequence for the responsibility of holding such positions.
It's not enough to say private companies can determine their own future, and hold responsibility for that, given the amount of cash that's been thrown at them to prevent the financial Titanic sinking. Larger companies have singularly lacked a sense of conscience when it comes to ordinary folk, and they've been savagely negligent when it comes to societal responsibility.
It's time, not only in Latvia, to redress the balance, and build a fairer, less extreme financial environment. Companies should be required to give back something, in return for the profit. Not just emplying people, but project aimed at rejuvenating infrastructure within the socities they are engaged in. Roads, Internet, parks, sewage works, energy investment should form part of a...condition for operating within a country, as a percentage of a gross figure calculated for company earnings. That figure could be as little as 10%, but that's 9 and 1/2 percent more than most companies contribute now.
Companies will need a commitment that their hard earned 'Infrastructure tax" won;t be wasted, so in turn, a constitutional change needs to be made that is, more or less, sacrosanct. No political interference, and both companies and government must agree on the shape and form that a constitutional form will take.
A shared adminstration will ensure, by nature of an eager intent of maximum result for funds spent, a degree of efficiency that will go much further than a government run project.
It's time to think out of the box, hold both politicians and big companies to account, and ensure that the extremes of the current financial crisis aren't repeated.
As a.....'bonus' and incentive, companies that invest more than 10% in essential infrastructure, should enjoy a tax break of some sort, and politicians who exercise a degree of wisdom and state frugality in this shared infrastructure approach, with importantly, action, should be recognised for their efforts.
Perhaps then, a politician who may be genuine, determined, and successful in taking the country forward, will be more likely to be re-elected, with the subsequent reward for the public, of electing a true leader, with their best interests at heart.
This idea is NOT a public private partnership, but a legal requirement for companies operating within a country, and the more countries that buy into a scheme like this, the less places companies will be able to go, to avoide their social responsibility.
Extra points for environmental improvements!
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#1 Iakamskiep-
Do you think that possibly some of this market instability that is causing all this misery could be a direct result of every erious businessman not wanting to commit to any investments, long/short term planning, because they don't know what the effect of the whole EURO and EU thing is going to be?
Right now I myself am keeping several $100,000 dollars out of investment, because I don't know how this is going to end up.
For the first time in my life time as an American I feel that there are active forces inthe EU trying to wreck the dollar(which if they are sucessful any economist will tell you will make the 1930s global recession look like a walk in the park).
The other day I was talking to a Saudi friendand he inted out something. Most Saudi investments and savings are based on the dollar being viable. If it is not should the Saudis ask to be paid in Saudi money, by the world. They don'tseem to have a lot of Euro faith.
America is Europes biggest investor in the EU countries one of our Congressmen said yesterday. If he is correct how will wreckig her economy help the individual nations of the EU.
Last night the news on Public Television was all about US companies relocating to Poland and how this is bringing the Irish to work in Poland. Does the US perception that the whole EU thing is essentually an Anti-US thing, cause US companies to flee the EU.
Trade wars- President Obama came out against trade protectionism yesterday, but that is no the general mood of the congress. Will this new trade blocking, EU one block, Western Hemisphere one block, Asia a block, African Union a block do any of the blocks any good? It really looks like French Merchantalism from the 1600s. If all trade is within your block, how is wealth created trhough trade? Basically the EUs plan for creating wealth is each of us will take in each others laundry within our own block, if I understand this.
The EU will be more Centralized and have additional Social benefits? Isn't that the program of the od Soviet Union? Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the decentralized economies of the US and Europe beat this system in every method of measuring?
Am I wrong in thinking that a good part of this financial crisis is directly linked to the uncertainty of all these market and national re-alignment.
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First of all, the EU is not even mentioned in the article....so what is the point in raising the topic all over again. Seriously, every discussion ends up with some people bouncing back and forth the same arguments again and again.
I think it is rather pathetic that the politicians themselves have to admit that there is nothing they can do.
The thing is that it shows a general development. An economic crisis affecting so many countries and politics only able to react and often there is nothing that can be done.
Too many people are just talking about solving the problem, but no one actually solves it.
Capitalism has just demonstrated that it is a system with many flaws, and if it is not regulated properly the same thing is going to happen all over again as soon as the topic is out of the publics minds.
We are in a crisis nothing can be done about that anymore, the important question is are we going to learn from the mistakes that have been made?
And maybe more importantly, when are we going to learn that we cannot eat money....
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Wondering how Latvia got into such a mess is what fills the local media; blaming the government is the easiest way, and media images from abroad may help to encourage more violent actions – protesting and rioting are identified with democracy and freedom of speech. Anyway, the basic truth is that no opposition party has any solutions beyond the old communist-populist stance – if there will be no rich, there will be no poor either (but history has shown that it is perfectly possible to eliminate wealth without diminishing poverty). This New Era party has led the government for a short period some years ago; the result was disastrous incompetence and witch-hunt for the so-called squanderers and other villains from the old elite. Return of the present centre-right coalition government was the end of a nightmare. Now, of course, its wrong deeds come out as well. It is most blamed for ignoring the people’s needs and opinions; what it really has done wrong is just the opposite – giving in to the people’s massive consumerist spree, allowing taking massive loans, raising salaries and not preventing the abnormal practice of trading on the sky-rocketing property prices. Unqualified construction workers’ wages could exceed well beyond 1000 euros. Taking out a loan to be repaid over next 20-30 years, buying luxury cars etc. with neither appropriate education nor career but a confidence that salaries will rocket forever was doomed to end some day. When all that is gone, we hear the old Soviet citizen’s cry again – why the state is not taking care of me??? The reason is, among others, that state officials’ secure jobs have been valued instead of really good education, innovative thinking and entrepreneurial courage.
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#2 - Gheryando
#3 - Menedemus
Imagine if you will that Iceland, instead of succumbing to the economic downturn, had bucked the trend and blossomed. The eurosceptices would be out in force telling us how easily we could have done the same if it had not been for the accursed EU. Image that an EU country had somehow escaped the trauma. That, we would have been told, would have been in spite of the EU.
Try telling these people that this is a global problem, nothing to do with the EU. Try explaining that the ECB is simply trying to follow the policies of the Fed or the BOE in looking for a way through this. They have decided on their scapegoat and they are sticking to it. The problem with blind prejudice is that it is seldom blind. It comes from the urge to find something - anything - to blame so long as it is not themselves.
We will all come out of this sooner or later, probably battered and bruised and hopefully wiser. The lessons that the EU have learned collectively will be put to good use in the future and those that prefer isolation will be the poorer for it. The upsurge of industrial unrest occasioned by protectionism and the apparent increase in isolationist sentiment is no coincidence. Why use rational argument when a blunt instrument is so much more effective?
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Gheryando Cooment2 and the 'Eurohating post..'
Where is the Euro-'hate' you allude to (did you mean EU or actually the Euro)?
Were I to have written that the European Union seems to be coping wuite well, would that have meant I was a Euro-lover?
I can very well 'imagine' the EU 'federal' taxes etc. !!! 400,000,000 European Citizens' economic futures (their Life-savings, Homes, Occupations and Pensions) answerable and dependent on Brussels and Frankfurt!
"It is very clear if this was the caee the EU would have taken.. more decisive step.."
Yes, I am quite sure
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Gheryando Cooment2 and the 'Eurohating post..'
Where is the Euro-'hate' you allude to (did you mean EU or actually the Euro)?
Were I to have written that the European Union seems to be coping quite well, would that have meant I was a Euro-lover?
I can very well 'imagine' the EU 'federal' taxes etc. !!! 400,000,000 European Citizens' economic futures (their Life-savings, Homes, Occupations and Pensions) answerable and dependent on unmandated Brussels and Frankfurt!
"It is very clear.. if this were the case the EU would have taken.. more decisive step.."
Yes, I am quite sure Brussels "could and would" have dealt with the individual National issues and difficulties of Latvia, Spain etc. Of course, in a one-size-fits-all answer the actual Citizens may well find themselves Democratically at a loss as to how to make their point about their individual Life-savings, Property, Pensions etc. as the nearest accountable EU representative was safely esconced in Brussels checking on their personal expenses claim vouchers for travelling to Strasbourg!
"Think before you copy stuff out of the Sun"!
You forgot the Daily Mail!
My goodness, how the EU-Supporter (you and MenedemusComment3) assumes and presumes their superiority!
What is it that allows you to smugly contend from your Guardinista perspective that I would lack the intellectual capacity to compete on level terms with your views on the economic direction of Europe?
Oh! Hang on! I get it! You are a PRO-EU and therefore in a much better educational-social-cultural-political position to my mere ordinary UK Citizen category. Why, I must be the classic 'little englander' and 'europhobe' that needs keeping in their place at all costs!?
I cannot decide which insult you directed at me is more demeaning and undermining of your personal standing? The 'nonsensical Eurohating', the 'what is so difficult to understand', the 'calorie', the 'Sun', or was it the content of your entire Post with its glib hints that perhaps this was all too difficult for the likes of me!?
Menedemus looks forward to the 'demise of this (UK) bankrupt Government.. as bankrupt as the country..' As though rejoicing in the hardship of millions is justifiable because that will of course bring the EU Federal project even closer to reality.
My Comment did not attempt to celebrate the failure of the EU to act responsibly in this present economic crisis: I pointed out how the pro-EU lobby must be sensing a critical moment was at hand for the EU as it was failing in my analogy of the one-legged man.
I do agree with the suggestion that there will be large debt and unemployment: I do not agree with either of you, or Alex1658, that somehow there would be 'less damage' and everything would be so much better if the EU had even more powers.
To repeat, 'I would laugh, but the griminess of the reality... one-size-fits-all.. makes tears a more appropriate response.'
Clearly, you believe that the EU is the answer. I will give you both the benefit of the doubt and assume your smug put-downs were in the heat of the moment of recognising the EU does have extremely serious flaws and no legitimate answers in the present crisis.
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threnodio8... 'why use rational argument when a blunt instrument is so muc more effective?'
If I thought you were directing those comments to me I would be most offended.
I have presented my anti-EU views here and on other Web-pages coherently, logically and most certainly without recourse to 'blind prejudice'.
It is striking how you, and indeed all 4 pro-EU Commentary, has resorted to accusations of ignorance and xenophobia. Why are we (anti-EU) so crudely labelled so often, but the pro-EU lobby constantly claims it rises above such factionalism etc?
Is it because you fear you are losing the overall argument?
Come on, you can do better!
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This will be my last post on Mark's blog page for a long time. Two reasons, firstly it is now so slow it has become impossible to debate isues. (example post 9, posted at 4.38pm, still not on site at 6.25, this is not unusual).
Second reason is that both sides of the debate (myself included) appear to make their case by denigrating the other side.
So for my last post the U.K. still has a large manufacturing post (look up the figures) as do many countries in the eurozone. Sterling is on the way up again (nearly 1.14 to the euro at the moment) despite interest rates being reduced to 1%. The euro is doing well.
Re the latest dispute, the jobs are not being given to British workers, they are being offered on the open labour market in the U.K. and any one can apply regardless of the nationality. I am sure the portuguese and Italian workers brought in are highly skilled and hardworking, I say that also applies to the British workers in involved in the debate.
I may well return to this site in 6 months or so to see if it is any quicker and if the recession has made a difference to the E.U.
In the meantime good luck to all and best wishes
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#7 All-
Riga girls comments probably show why invstors are more excited about new Europe than old Europe.
I quote "but history has shown theat it is perfectly possible to eliminate wealth without diminishing poverty".
Wee Hee!!!!!! She gets it. Somebudys thinking!!! Basicaly if we tax or redistribute investment out of existence, we have no investment, duh! And don't kid yourselves every person's job on this computer system is a result of investment, even government workers. If nobody invests in a corporation or starts a private business, who do you work for????
Why does that person invest?????
TO MAKE MONEY, TO MAKE MONEY!! That's it. Not to save the planet, not to fix your infratructure, not to fund your military, not to pay for your Super state.
Companies do all of that, but that is not their purpose. If companies are allowed to make a profit they will flock to your area and make people richer. Thats why they call it a corporate base, it is something that if nurtured will grow and provide all the other government spending.
No we won't all be perfectly, equally rich, because some of us are going to be better at this than others. Some of us are going to be risk takers, some inovators, some good at selling an idea.
BUT WE ARE ALL BETTER OFF THAN IF THE GOVERNMENT RAN OUR LIFE AND HANDLED OUR WEALTH.
Right now companies are struggling in your area. The worst thing you could do is make the economic burden on them harder. So when the lefties kill off Volks-wagon with tons more government regulation, or as I say nonsence, just be aware that it won't improve the life of the people or comunity that made Volks-Wagon.
Latvia as a new country has taken a temporary stumble. But if it pays down it's bills, encourages investment and shows that it is not going to flip into some brightly painted versionof the USSR/CCCP it's going to make it.
The proposal that companies give 10% of their profit to society is just a business killer. Any company making a 10% profit last year did great, most lost money. What percentage profit do you think corporations make?
These goofy socialist ideas are caussal factors, not solutions to an economic downturn. If everybody gets the same, no matter what they do, why inovate, why take risk, why invest, why work harder???
The worst thing the Americans ever did was prevent Europe from being occupied by Russia, because if they hadn't done that you would understand what an awful system this was.
I'm going to end with a salute to Riga Girls last sentence"secure jobs have been valued instead of really good education, innovative thinking and entrpunurial courage."
Perfect, your kids are goingto end up working for the Swiss, the Latvians and the Poles.
That
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#10 - ikamaskeip
May I suggest that we all calm down a little bit. What you wrote in your post #1 was "The EU in a real crisis has proven itself about as useful as the proverbial one-legged man in an ar#e kicking contest!"
Well please tell me who has been useful? Mr. Brown, maybe? Mr. Darling, possibly? Obama? Bit early to tell. You see it is all well and good saying the EU does not have the answers but does anyone else?
The inference of your remark is that the EU has failed to work a miracle, therefore it must be useless. Not only is that completely unjust but it smacks of prejudice. I always treat my opponents in this debate with respect even when we do not agree but the idea that the EU is a busted flush simply because it hasn't turned the world economy round in a few weeks is frankly laughable. Quite what this has to do with Latvia, I am unsure.
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Sorry to see you go, JB
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1.The EU in a real crisis has proven itself about as useful as the proverbial one-legged man in an ar#e kicking contest!
Quite right, the EU currently has a flaw, a flaw shared by every other country in Europe: No strong leadership.
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Being pro business is all very wonderful and too the good. Full marks to the baltic states for capitalistic thought and action.
Being energy poor with a tiny population who speak a language nobody else speaks, and being situated in between a superpower who hates your guts and a cold sea..... economic FAIL.
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"The EU in a real crisis has proven itself about as useful as the proverbial one-legged man in an ar#e kicking contest!"
The UK's Governments approach to the economy for the last 20 or so years of unfettered capitalism sounds so hollow now... How the lecturing of the supremacy of anglosaxon economics so beloved of the europhobes is just roundly ignored now... Im sorry ikamaskeip but you guys just twisting and turning twisting and turning grasping at outlandish argument to wish the reality away...
Your prophecy of the immanent end of the EU (I can only imagine that is waht you meant by "the pro-EU lobby must be sensing a critical moment was at hand for the EU as it was failing in my analogy of the one-legged man" etc etc
You sound about as logical as nostradamus.
But ok seeing as you hate the mudslinging that the europhobes are so keen to partake on a daily basis for the sake of this blog lets get to the root issue why at least I find the views of europhobes repugnant. I use Europhobe adviseldly because I recognise a eurosceptics out there that have some serious point. I am to some extent eurosceptic. I recognise that european integration whatever the form it takes is difficult, hard and a long process. I dont particulary like the CAP (And I come myself from a farming background), and I believe that the bureucratic process is a mess and is in serious need of a overhawl. Where I draw a line is a serious lack of faith in human nature and the implied superiority of the British way of doing things at any cost and the uglyness that lies below that is vehemently denied but comes out in post after post
Proeuropean: I want futher integration
Euro-phobe/sceptic: I do not want futher integration
Proeuropean: Why dont you want futher integration?
Euro-phobe/sceptic: I belive that the EU is corrupt/inefficient/undemocratic/unrepresentative etc etc
Proeuropean: Ok Ok If the EU went some way to fix your concerns and became all these things and improved to the extent that it became a benefit to your country would you consider political inegration.
Eurosceptic: I would consider it...maybe with some. ec etc
vs
Europhobic: Never we will never consider full political integration ....because
...and its this because which is never addresed.With a eurosceptic there is a argument about the structure of the EU and the implied net benefit to the nation/state.And there is an acceptance that a benefit threshold is met political integration of sorts, whatever its configuration may be on the cards. With the europhobic its a flat refusal because there is ditrust of the actors involved namely continental europeans who obviously cannot operate toghether in the system. This I believe is retrograde non progressive and a fundamental failure in the trust of human nature and a slur on the nature of fellow europeans.
I have no problem with eurosceptics. But the views of europhobes who seem to believe that continental europeans working in the EU structure are naturally desposed to being incompetant/corrupt and or fascist unable to work toghether towards the greater good and are out to destroy great britain and erect a 4th Reich is just beyond the pale.
Argue on the structure, not on the agents.
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jordanbasset @12 "niet" Please?
Never say never again. Not that I could much talk to you or understand what you are discussing on the EU but
I side with threnodio and hope you will use an expedited version of the calendar. tear off some wrong months in advance.
:o)
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Politejomsviking. And everybody.
Please help me - find a flaw in this model.
Part 1.
An economic riddle from the beg. of the XX century. When you follow this thought you see why corporations/capitalism always requires expansionism to the periphery and constant wars destroying countries.
To simplify matters we represent economics of Country A by one company. Say, it is making footwear. By year results the company makes a profit, of 4 bln dollars.
This is split btw the workers (who provided their work/labour) and capitalists (gave leather and equipment). 2 bln – to workers, 2 bln – to capitalists.
There immediately forms an extra of goods and capital.
Workers can buy boots for 2 bln, full stop.
The amount of boots they made is more than they need themselves.
Capitalists can’t consume the boots either.
You have to find a country that makes less and worse boots, to sell there the extra of boots.
That country in the periphery wants boots. But it has to pay for them with something.
It starts selling its state drafts/obligations, crawling into a debt.
Little by little the defective in terms of boots country B also starts to liven up.
It stretches railroads, build factories. In ints turn in Country B there also appears an excess of produced goods that it has to accommodate somewhere.
All seems lovely but unfortunately the Earth
is not unlimited. The periphery, comfortable for selling excess of products, gradually ends up. Nowhere to export.
On tops, there is formed a huge excess of capital with our hypotethical corporation. Capitalists have to invest money somewhere. But where to? In your own country – over-production. Means, you have to export capital, putting it into establishing of enterprises in the less rich countries and building connecting infrastructure there.
In this mode the un-used yet periphery disappears even quicker.
Capitalism faces a horrible crisis of over-production of goods and profits, on the verge of self-destruction.
Today as a sample of one such hypothetrical corporation one can consider the China-USA tandem. A combination of financial, branding, and management capital, on one side, and production platform/industrial base, on the other. US and Western corporation overall can’t live without placing production in China.
At one point this Chinese-American tandem enters the stage of a growth crisis. All Earth managed; excess goods and capital - nowhere to get rid of.
What is to be done?
"By the Hamburg account" (sorry, such a Russian expression in chess-play) - one can invest excess of capital in non-economic related things. For example, into education and development of super-youth, into science break-through.
The problem is the capitalists themselves will never do it. Somebody ought to make them into it, or simply directly grab a part of their capital, using it for the benefit of the whole nation.
Thus, for example, did Hitler, making the German capital finance a whole system of "humanconstruction, education and training factories making an output of healthy and sporty German youngsters. A race of furure Earth owners.
Similarly did Stalin, directing capital into a whole system of teenager "pioneer" camps (you won't know what it is, say, communistic scouts), sport training centres, aviation clubs, shooting societies, mass sport (with a heavy military crane) (cross country-skiiing and rifle shooting - tops. LOL. future partisans), into managing of wild places, Arctic circle, Siberia, huge infrustructural projects.
But today there is no Stalin nor Hitler. Nobody to make capitalists to use their capital sensibly, LOL.
Even in China; for their "tops" are highly "capitalised". They like the present lay-out, that at their foot lies a mass, a sea of poor workers. And as to epoch-making break-throughs in science and technical stuff - sorry, somehow not in the nature of the Chinese traditional playing field.
At some point a way to let ot the vapours was found in super-luxury, that pulls off away a part of the capital into construction of great yachts with in-built subs, private airliners, building palaces and making super boutique clothes sold at sky-rocket prices. Buying art.
But this ain't enough. It didn't plug the hole. And into science - the capitalism stubbornly does not want to invest. There are always tensions. It would seem easy - plop your money into a teamwork to switch off the mechanism of aging, or cancer. Instead of buying another island or a yacht or a football club. But no. One classic example - choking of the Tesla works on the non-wire based transmission of electricity.
So, the problem is capitalism is likely to apply the old anti-crisis recepies. Creating the periphery, by making war. War is good by itself, source of income on military orders, but simultaneously it does an important wok - converts whole regions of the Earth into barren territories. War destroys industry there, makes places a wild place again. The whole 20th century is a serie of such separate wars, clean up of places for the own goods export. As an option - you un-seal economic space of others, making it possible for your own goods and capitals to flow there.
Will continue with examples in the next post later. Too long for one sad story.
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#7 Riga girl-
Latvia is not in any bigger mess than the rest of the world right now!
It is in fact ahead of the game, because it recognizes there is a problem.
It's government is probably adpoting the right attitude. When the problem is excessive debt running up everybodys bills with more taxes or regulaions on the products you make is hardly the answer.
You might want to dig a large channel completly around your country though, history has proven that the goofier political ideologys do not produce great sailors.
Then find yourself a Latvian Lord Nelson. America has found through the ages that lots of water and a strong Navy make for better neighbors. Britain, Canada, New Zealans and Australia I am sure will concurr.
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#8 threnodio
You have a hard job on here threnodio!
But I'm glad you keep it up. I am more and more reading your posts, as this EU heavy stuff to begin with is a little taxing! And it is apparent you are insightful. A lot don't seem to be able to get it.
I benefit - I am widening my vision. My stand point is I am a ScotNat. So I figure I better know a lot about the EU!
:-)
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ikamaskeip
With all your complaining about our "superiority" feeling I would like to say the following. In my experience, the more educated a citizen, the more he/she is in favour of international cooperation/European Integration etc.
Ramblings, such as the ones by politejomsviking, who thinks the EU wants to destroy the dollar and is the new Soviet Union only help to reinforce this notion and thus I have to agree with you on your remark.
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5. At 2:27pm on 05 Feb 2009, politejomsviking wrote:
"...
Right now I myself am keeping several $100,000 dollars out of investment, because I don't know how this is going to end up."
Invest it in Canada and give me 10% of your profits for my good advice.
" ... Does the US perception that the whole EU thing is essentually an Anti-US thing, cause US companies to flee the EU."
Anti-Americanism is a BIG amongst "EU"-lovers. Watch your backs! Buy stab-proof vests!
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# 21 Web Alice-
I don't know if the Soviets ever succeeded in creating SOVIET MAN, but apparently they have succeeded in creating SOVIET WOMAN.
I want to let you know that is the most unnatural set of arguments I have ever heard out of a woman's mouth. My dear departed Lacey could tell you there is never any such thing as too many boots and shoes. She could explain with the sterling logic of an economist that there is never too many shoes, just too small closets or to few dresses to go with shoes. This can all be blamed on the White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, male who has failed to put the same ammount of effort into women's shoe production as was put into saving the world from Fascism or cancer. Lacey could explain to you with flawless logic that even if you own 900 pairs of shoes that at some point you would have to wear the same horrible old shoes again or not have the right shoe.
Lets do the math:
There are 365 days in a year.
You only have 900 pairs of shoes and boots.
Shoes for evening wear 365.
Plus cassual shoes for Ladies lunches at country club, charities, boat club, flower club, garden club, etc another 365 for a total of 700.
Plus Business clothing will need at least 200 pairs for wear with business clothing. Completely necessary for dropping by business and making employees mad. We are already up to 900!
We have no shoes for weddings, no shoes for vacation, no shoes for gardening, none for boating, none for wear at breakfast, none for funerals, none for longing around the house, no sport shoes! Oh no, some of these shoes are in winter colors and some in summer colors, they are not ussable everyday of the year!
Horrorr of horrors! We need a lot more shoes! I will call Dan's sister and my friend Stacey and we can fly up to New York to 8th street and 5th Avenue and get some right away!
Where ever will we get all the shoes, handbags and dear little dresses we will need!
I am confident their will never be too many shoes produced. This and Oil the US will never export.
I am afraid that I personally prefer letting Lacey have the money for necessary shoes instead of giving it to the government to produce the kind of murderers that Hitler and Stalin did. I guess in her own little way the women of the world like Lacey are their own little military disarmament program.
Be assured if China disappears in a nuclear cloud tommorow the Laceys of this country will have the US making shoes and matching handbags by evening.
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Very interesting article there Mark - its all too easy for us to forget that despite all the flashy slogans and graphics in the media here that other countries are being hit far harder.
As a side point I wonder what effect the financial crisis will have on the whole Lisbon deal this year, if any?
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#25 Suffolk boy find me something with a almost guranteed 10% MARGIN AND NOT TAXED AND WE WILL TALK TURKEY Canadian turkey if that is where we have to go to get it.
___________________________________
Is it to obviouse, in American heads EU, Socialist Bueracracy and impractical french nonsences are all the same thing.
The worst thing about the EU is it inpowers dumb people on this side of the Atlantic to enter pulic discourse, by pointing to dumb people on that side of the atlantic and saying Europe doing it.
But the choice belongs to Europe if Latvians think they can become rich by giving their money to the government to build a bench with instead of investing in Apple computer, who knows aybe they are right. Long term I think my computer stock will do better, retun wise.
Europe my friend is one long stab in the back, for the English speaking world it is like raising scorpions in your bed. Is Canada, Australia and New Zealand happy with the wealth they have spent keeping the old world free in the Cold war and two world wars.
The money would gave been better spent figuring out how to move Britain physically closer to North America or Australia(tug boats, shovels, etc.) and then who really cares what the Germans or Russians do to the rest.
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#23 - aye_write
If you are interested in some of the ideas - and especially if you have had dialogue with oldnat elsewhere - you may like to take a look at our new constitutional project. Just Goggle my user name for this blog and it will point you in the right direction:-)
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To threnodio (29):
Very interesting...
The Federal Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
But wouldn't it be more sensible to just make it Federal Republic and remove the monarchy? Shouldn't you give human rights to the royals too and set them free. If you love them enough you understand that you have to let them be free.
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#29 threnodio
Thank you. Yes I have had some exchanges with oldnat. He is extremely nice, but then I do support independence! Kidding.
You pair seem rather well informed and clear thinking so I thought I would pay attention to what you have to say, in order to become better informed and more clear thinking ;-)
I have been having an interesting time discussing (suggesting!)constitutional change with the English guys on NR's. At first I was an ignorant scrounging jock, but not for long. They seem very sick of the current FPTP system of two turkeys and no prizes at Westminster and are now considering that change is necessary, but I think they are still deciding where and how to proceed. They're nice.
So it's interesting times. Thank you for your link. Do we wait 'til you add the next installment, then is it comments you are after?
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I'm quoting politejomsviking's last post
"The worst thing about the EU is it inpowers dumb people"
Made my day
p.s. politejomsviking I heard spelling bees are popular in the US. You must be a fan.
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#32 Gheryando
Wouldn't know about spelling bees, that is ussually something handled by my Secretaries. In truth if not for having a stent put in wouldn't be home typing at all.
I am sure there is a spell check on this new lap top, but I doubt if I will be here long enough to figure it out as there are places to be and things to do, all of which are more relevant than some cadiologist's fantasys.
Be assured that I will pass your post on to the Office Administartor (Senior Secretary) Mrs. Miles, who also believes that free spirits like myself would lose our heads if they didn't hand them to us constantly.
That said, I may be an incompetent Secretary, but one thing I have never been, is silly enough to go check the mail box to see if there was a check in there from the Government that would make me rich and happy by re-distribution. Nor did I ever think they could pick my car better for me than me or my clothes (what would I look like in a chairman Mao suite, probably as authentic as Winston Churchill in the blue coveralls and tuxedo shoes).
The thought stands about bureaucrats, socialists, EU, and others who enslave their families to poverty through inaction or imagination, definetly 3rd rate, no use for them at all, but the most evil thing they do is block better mens (and need we say it now days womens) work.
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And once again, so many comments blame the EU for all the evil in this world...It is getting boring.
Does the EU have the power to remedy this world-wide economic crisis? no
Would the UK be prepared to give it more powers in economic matters to tackle the situation (taxation, industry, common market - all areas of 'shared competence') ? no
When the EU has powers and acts - it's wrong (democratic deficit, bureaucracy, blabla). When it has insufficient powers to act - also wrong!
So please, try to balance you opinions.
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@26 Politejoms. :o) The boots saga.
LOL LOL LOL.
OK, I won't type in the whole Part Two (of the scenario).
Especially that it ends very bad:
China-USA tandem cleans out more space of its excess industrial production and infrustructure, for selling extra boots out and placing the extra-s of its capital.
(what did you say about $100,000 extra-s you don't know where to go with? :o)
must be, mis-heard.)
I was simply worried because Russia thinks the capitalists' most convenient new clean-up of the ground will be exactly us. Since we miraculously raised back from the ashes, the previous industry floor-brushing of Perestroyka.
And there is an opinion that some, say, might feel annoyed and wonder, that the task un-complete.
Sure thing there is Africa for you as well, but it is unconvenient to China in terms of boots' delivery, and also they aren't in the habit of wearing them yet. Wrong weather.
We understand you don't like each other with China much, but crisis and convenience may very well drew you both together into one lovely set. You are both practical nations, and surely where money is concerned, trifle personal sympathies and standing-in-the-way of good business alienations will be tucked away into the further drawer. Temporarily, of course.
But enough to buy you the time to recover.
I mean, to recover back those trillions and billions and 11 zero-s.
(On a personal level can't stop thinking we ARE a good market for boots. Just look up at the poor English now, snow pictures, sporting the snow in Wellingtons. (rheumatism, kidney inflammation, mis-placed ankles as rubber slips on ice and is the last thing a Russian would think of wearing in autumn-spring-winter).
Certainly THAT market is no good.
While Russian empress Elizabeth had mere 2,200 silk ball slippers (a Hermitage separate hall), I have about 62 (my mum insists on the number); in other words it's a national trend.
leading us to the abyss!
On the SOVIET WOMAN creation, as opposite to the SOVIET MAN existence (that you correctly doubt about) - yes. what to do.
A very un-natural for the females piece of text indeed I have posted; but this country holds on women. The only reason Russia (she, by the way, as well) still exists on the map.
And is managed by men.
Just look at the results of their management!
If we want to live somebody ought to think about scenarious ways and habits and the whole lay-out and boring, indeed, crap. I'd much rather concentrate on matching colours, but something tells me I won't have 2 things to match soon, in the current direction of development.
Soviet woman, un-soviet, it has always been here like this.
The chief characteristics of a Russian woman (dated 1840) (the instruction/manual, put into the box) are:
"The horse will stop in full gallop (grabbing by bridles),
into the burning izba will enter (wooden dwelling on fire)."
Centuries pass, and our horses still gallop and gallop. And izba-s burn and burn.
Can't re-load responsibilities onto anyone.
You write very charmingly.
But BTW, I have a feeling a Russian woman has to think currently how to fix troubles caused by men - not on the behalf of the Russian men only.
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This thread has long since spiralled out of control. Its quite interesting to observe.
politejomsviking - You're last post says absolutely nothing...but I shall forgive you. I have an idea: Why don't you take yourself on a trip to Brussels to savour some Moules et Frites, and see socialism in action. Also, how about books? I also recommend a daily dose of IHT as well as a subscription to The Economist.
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by the way, its "to empower"...*sigh*
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#24 Gheryando
Exactly.
The sooner we get rid of nationalism as a political tool, removing at least one tribal implement of political and profit driven intent, the sooner we can get on with each other on a more sustained basis as a common humanity.
It's not enough to simply change the rules.
It will take a fundamental change away from locality as a means of identifying oneself, to a position of strength in a united humanity, by the majority of people, before we can effectively kill off at least some of the reasons being used to drive us into conflict with one another.
I've always considered myself a global citizen, and it's paid off in my travels around the world, dealing with others in friendship from one person to another, and not by assumption of behaviour according to a political national identity.
The best part is, many intelligent people on this planet (in my humble experience) feel the same, which shows when gravitating towards a person or group we're most comfortable with.
There's a lot of discussion about the political element of the EU, as a project. But if we evolve to a step beyond that, and embrace the project as a means to go forward, we not only negate or decrease the chance of conflict, but effectively remove the tools being used to make the few rich, and politicians less likely to goad normally sensible and compassionate people into war with their fellow human beings.
The EU isn't perfect, but it is the right direction to a more advanced evolution of mankind.
We could also take another big step forward here, were politicians to suddenly grow a spine, and declare a schengen zone model, whether in the EU or not, from Ireland to Vladivostok, as a start.
I'm pro EU, not for the political opportunists, nor their gravy train lust, but for a united humanity, whether they live in Germany, France, or Russia.
From a global citizen.
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#31 - aye_write
I am looking at making it interactive. For now, feel free to post to the blog. Thanks for your interest.
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#39 threnodio
Interesting. (I have a few crumbs I have spilled on there :-) I've since read through it - I'd missed a bit.
Thank you.
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#38 alex1658
"From a global citizen."
I am also a global citizen and as such have a right to self-determination. Or would you disagree?
Please get over your apocalyptic view of nationalism as an all destructive force who's evil desire it is to continually set man against man ('man' there also being short for 'woman') in a futile spiral 'til were all upset - or dead.
It is not.
I have desires for my country, Scotland, that are described as nationalism, and they have nothing to do with setting myself and my compatriots against anyone, anywhere.
Rather, it is the oppression of such groups, the prevention of their ability to exercise self governance, that leads to the kind of acrimony and potential for dispute and unrest that you perceive.
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#41 - aye_write
I would have thought - or would like to believe - that nationalism is having a cultural and social identity which is no barrier to being a citizen of the world. The two are not inconsistent.
This, at the risk on banging an old drum, is why I am mystified by some of the more trenchant observations regarding the EU. It is perfectly possible to be a good Englishman )in my case) and a good European.
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#42 threnodio
Exactly. I've never really understood those Brits who want to live in a multi-national state established in 1707, (amended 1801 and 1923), but somehow see any other "foreigners" as being (in this case appropriately, in their terms) "beyond the Pale"
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#42 threnodio
Well, yes. I agree!
But then being a citizen of the world is not inconsistent with self determination for your own national (and in that cultural and social) identity and neither do I see it as a barrier to that.
We all have layered identities?
Thing is national identity, certainly in Scotland, is associated with soveriegnty or more correctly, the lack thereof. Hence my troubled soul!
----
PS I am busy polluting your blog, by the way.
And I see oldnat and some others have crossed over to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm
:-)
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#42 - threnodio
. . . but (since two Scots are awaiting moderation) let me preempt them by saying I am not so sure about being a good Briton:-)
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threnodio, "a good Englishman and a good European". before I read these blogs :o) I thought it is self, how to say, meaning, that it is easy for a good Englishmen to be a good European.
from an outsider Russian abstract view - Englishman - meant European.
until the EU began taking shape and the ones that were previously "good both", granted, began getting kind of slightly nervous. LOL.
alex1658 is though already a step further, I dare say he is a good Englishman, jumped over the next stage - "European" and by now has no problems seeing himself as "citizen of the world".
Apparently both the two previous stages of "development" from a chrysalis into a butterfly, :o) he finds - limitating. (From the music, creative, art point of view, right?)
I conclude we simply don't have a common understanding that all share which way is the "development". From nation - to the world, or from the world - to the nation.
?
Shakespeare, or anyone else clever - hasn't said anything on the subject? i'm sorry Rus. habit is to quickly mentally run through/ check poets for ideas. ;o)
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#45 threnodio
"the only good Briton is a ........" Oh, I am sorry, I've become like Jeremy Clarkson or some other racist!
I do apologise.
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#46 WebAliceinwonderland
"i'm sorry Rus. habit is to quickly mentally run through/ check poets for ideas."
Is that why Robert Burns was translated into Russian? I remember reading a prize-winning article on Burns by a Russian school-girl which was much better than most Scots could have written.
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34. At 2:26pm on 06 Feb 2009, singingprincealbert wrote:
"And once again, so many comments blame the EU for all the evil in this world...It is getting boring."
I do not blame the "EU" for all the evils in the world. I cannot remember reading any posting that does. Please could you give an example. I think you are making up stuff about your political opponents as a substitute for reasoned argument.
" ... getting boring." I do not post here to entertain you. I post here in the hope of freeing myself and the UK from a lousy dictastorship.
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43. At 11:05pm on 06 Feb 2009, oldnat wrote:
"#42 threnodio
Exactly. I've never really understood those Brits who want to live in a multi-national state established in 1707, (amended 1801 and 1923), but somehow see any other "foreigners" as being (in this case appropriately, in their terms) "beyond the Pale""
The continentals are not beyond the pale. There are many wonderful things about them. Unfortunately they have a greater tendency to dictatorship, police-state policing and corruption than the Brits and it is therefore unacceptable to be in a political union with them. It is perfectly acceptable to be friendly with them and to cooperate in many ways. The sad thing is that the "EU" causes more friction than is necessary. It makes all cooperation suspect because it frequently tries to use cooperation as an excuse for integration. After we have left, it may make cooperation more difficult than necessary because of its desire to take revenge and to dominate.
If once the Scots were independent they showed this same tendency* then it would still be acceptable to be in a political union with them because they would be in the minority.
* I do not claim that they would.
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38. At 3:31pm on 06 Feb 2009, alex1658 wrote:
" ...But if we evolve to a step beyond that, and embrace the project as a means to go forward, we not only negate or decrease the chance of conflict..."
I don't believe that.
The "EU" is forcing a lousy dictatorship down the throats of hundreds of millions and refusing to take note of dissent. Some will think that there is no alternative to violence. Expect wars of independence.
The "EU" wants to build itself into a military power. It will be one that has no legitimacy. It is already arrogant and megalomaniac. It could result in armed conflict wit the USA.
The "EU" weakens NATO the one thing the Russians have understood.
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38. At 3:31pm on 06 Feb 2009, alex1658 wrote:
" ...
The sooner we get rid of nationalism as a political tool ..."
The "EU" does not do that. It creates a new nation about which to be nationalistic - "EU" or "Europe."
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To Gheryando.
Do you get paid to post here?
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28. At 08:08am on 06 Feb 2009, politejomsviking wrote:
"#25 Suffolk boy find me something with a almost guranteed 10% MARGIN AND NOT TAXED AND WE WILL TALK TURKEY Canadian turkey if that is where we have to go to get it."
It's just a guess and I guarantee you nothing. As an indicator of the value or otherwise of my guesses:
A year ago somebody claimed the housing market in the UK would fall by 10%. I posted elsewhere that it would fall by 26% or 27%. I read that it fell by 18%. So I wasn't quite right but also not totally wrong.
At the moment I think the USA, the UK and the "EU" are all in a mess. As far as I am aware that does not apply in the same measure to Canada or Australia. Am I wrong?
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@48 oldnut,
we love Burns true. don't know why.
"if you can explain what you love for - it is not love!" LOL
(now, who said that don't know either)
I think all world poets are translated into Russian. We vampire in poetry. In USSR was a total plague. Someone would post a poster "I'll be reading poetry - and whole concert halls tickets were sold out." To sit and melt from pleasure.
Now of course we became less civilised; more troubles in life require attention.
Still in the "Culture" channel at nights someone would be reading out loud, someone who can, of good actors. Or a smaller-size theatre rooms filled.
Poetry is considered here a step high upper than prose.
To be able to say a novel's content, 10 novels' content - in 10 lines. Condensed beauty. And in words than can't be replaced; how these get extracted of the mass - a divine gift.
That's why we insist Shakespeare was a poet, while all the rest strangely consider him a playwright. Which Russians find a very offending title for Shakespeare. :o)
Sure depends on the translator. Robert Burns was "lucky" one of our most gifted ones translated him. so we all got lucky.
the rhythm is kept and the feel I rather hope, you can say one line in English, next in Russian, next in English, next in Russian and it is one and the same thing. And the meaning doesn't slip from line to line, but stays within. A lucky co-incidence.
Doesn't happen often.
So it was easy for that unknown girl to understand.
"es-li-kto-to-zval-ko-go-to
co-ming-through-the-rye
i-fa-bo-dy-kiss-a-bo-dy
nee-da-bo-dy-cry :o)
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SB2
Yes, I do. In fact, I am sponsored by the socialist, fascist and whatever else you like to call it EU dictatorship
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#46 Web Alice, Old Nat,
I have no poetry about countries, but a simple statement I learned in College by a Southern Soldier to General Longstreet, Confederate States Army, at Appomatax, Virginia, waiting for the final blow to fall, that would end our fight for independence, April 1865.
"My shoes are gone;
my clothes are almost gone.
I'm weary, I'm sick, I'm hungry.
My family have been killed or scattered.
And I have suffered all this for my country.....
But if this war is ever over, I'll be damned if I ever love another country.
or perhaps this quote from General Sherman, US Army writing to Grant, US Army (our civil war)-
We can not change the heart of those people of the South, but we can make war so terrible that they will realize the fact that, however brave and gallant and devoted to their Country, still they are mortal and should exhaust all remidies before they flie to war
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7874110.stm
Which side is right? Both of them are. Each side's accusations about the other are true, even more so than the bitter exchange suggested. In fact it is just the tip of the iceberg, the visible small fraction of deep rooted serious underlying flaws in their socieities. And while each side was justified in condemning the other, neither side would admit to its own shortcomings. This is because neither side is any good and neither side will ever address the problems it has let alone fix them. How could it when it doesn't admit anything is wrong in the first place? That unwillingness to face unpleasant reality is the worst thing wrong with both of them and what they have in common. And that is why both are ultimately doomed.
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#56Gheryando-
You should have consulted a marketing consultant, before naming the new Socialist/Fascist Dictaorship. By calling it a Union, you already have already turned the entire Southern half of the United States against it.
The North was called the "UNION" in our Civil War, Communist Russia The Soviet Union. You could not have picked a worse name if you had named it the thousand year 4th Reich, Dictatorville or Borg Empire (Star Trek).
It took Labor Unions a long time to figure out that when recruiting in the South you always had to say "our Labor Union", because if you just say the Union you will get no support.
When the three governments met to discuss the combination of Mexico, the US and Canada a southernor present sabotaged it by suggesting the name "North American Union".
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First of all, I don’t understand why suddenly everyone is talking about EU under this article this is nothing to do with EU at first place. Secondly, I am Latvian living in Latvia and running 2 businesses in Latvia one of them is expanding into other EU countries very rapidly.
I have several higher educations some gained in Latvia and some in USA and Denmark. I believe I have competence to know what is happening in Latvia since I live and work here.
First of all, when watching reports on Latvia by journalists from abroad I have to say it is quite superficial information that is given out there and I rarely see them interviewing people who really know what is happening in Latvia when we talk about economical and political situation we have here right now, but then again I believe it is the problem with media all over the world, to be completely honest I just stopped watching news regularly for the last 6 months due to the fact there is so much non sense reported just to steer up the minds of people in the time when it is all about clear thinking and well thought action – fear is the worst thing to have at times like these.
Returning to Latvia to be completely honest I wished the credit crunch came here a bit earlier, what was happening here in 2007 – 2008 was a madhouse, especially Scandinavian banks were giving money to buy overrated properties to people who had no serious basis to pay this money back in 20-30 years at first place. As a businesswoman I do understand that Scandinavia will make a good chunk of money out of it and I cannot blame them – nothing personal just business, but what I do blame is our government that did not prepare a solid legislation on borrowing money from the banks and transparent approach to the financial system. Other thing, Latvia have serious issues with tax legislation that had to be changed years ago, people in business have been telling it to government for years now, but no one was listening. From statistics in Latvia on 1000 inhabitants only 17 are entrepreneurs, in small country like Latvia where we mainly have small and medium size businesses it is not enough, therefore, state should do some serious thinking on how to encourage young people to start their own business (see above on tax legislation) rather than go to work in government institutions or go picking mushrooms in UK. To my mind all current government can go home position and opposition alike, it is finally time to put the best professionals we have here as state ministers, what can you expect in times like these when we have a guy with diploma of mechanic as Finance Minister?
All in all, I know my folk and if we managed to survive SU times and did so much in these 18 years after SU’s fall comparatively what we have to do now is a walk in the park.
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The current Latvian leaders are the same people who were the Communist Party leaders in the Soviet era. Godmanis was the Prime Minister in the 90-ies. During his rule, there were privatization laws passed, which allowed the old Communist leaders to privatize the state property for peanuts. (Formally, everybody could privatize, however old Communists had the contacts, so privatization rights to these properties were given to them and denied to ordinary people.)
Thereafter, much of these properties were sold to foreign investors, so old Communists gained huge capital.
Most of the privatized factories sold to foreign investors were closed down. We believe that foreign investors do not want competitors to their factories and therefore they bought up their rivals and closed them down. As a result, there is almost no industry left in Latvia now.
As for the EU - it is clear now that EU wants to destroy our agriculture (the industry is already destroyed) in order to make us consumption market to their products and totally dependent on their import. Our farmers are not allowed to sell their products in the Latvian markets or directly to costumers, because of EU directives.
As for the estate bubble, which now has burst - There were no regulations at all governing the lending. So foreign (mainly Scandinavian) banks were lending money to everyone without credit check because the law did not require any credit register, so banks did not create it. So people took loans in several banks without telling them that they already have loans in other banks.
So, as Scandinavian banks easily gave loans on small interest and without credit check and as there were no capital gain tax introduced in Latvia (it is still not introduced here), many Latvians started buying and selling properties, so property prices rocketed in the sky. The loan taker register (credit register) was introduced only in 2008!!!! So now the banks have realized that many Latvian have taken loans in several banks without being able to afford so. Banks have realised that they have huge bad and doubtful debts because of their previous lending policies and lack of legal regulation. So now the lending is almost completely stopped as banks. As a result, property prices fall and property market has crashed.
By the way, our government still has not put any tax burden to the wealthiest part of the population, i.e. themselves, as there is still no progressive income tax and no capital gain tax introduced in Latvia but at the same time the VAT on necessities is risen by 16% (from 5% before to 21% now).
In addition, it should be mentioned that our government has introduced unbelievably high salaries to its senior clerks, i.e the Head of Latvian Central Bank gets 155K GBP per year (which is more than the Chairman of US Federal Reserve)!!! Latvia cannot afford such salaries but they are still being paid to them.
At the same time, the social security benefits are reduced, the pensions are not indexed in line with inflation (by the way 86% of Latvian pensioners receive pension that is below the poverty line).
So, the curent crisis is just the result of 18 year long corruption and reign of old Communist leaders.
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#50 SuffolkBoy2
It's useful when you clarify. Thank you.
What your argument boils down to is that England has no authoritarian tradition, and is less corrupt.
It's reasonable for England to be in a political union with other countries, as long as England is in the majority, and can keep any of their potentially nasty tendencies under control.
You must regret the loss of Empire, when England could control large parts of the world through military conquest, repression, and not allowing them democracy.
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Suffolkboy2
"Unfortunately they have a greater tendency to dictatorship, police-state policing and corruption than the Brits and it is therefore unacceptable to be in a political union with them."
So by your reasoning the British have a natural predisposition to be superior in moral character to continental europeans...Tell me then, since many of the British citizens now are from China or Pakistan are you and other europhobics naturally superior to them because their country of origin has totalitarian tendancies, is corrupt and prone to state policing, and should they be ejected from Britain because they have a natural tendancy to support these ideas?
Since the British are historically seen as exploitative, warmongering and politically hypocritical by their by continental europeans is a wonder why other continental states want to be in a political Union with the UK. But oh wait...of course! How could I have missed it! Countrys can never change!Their cultural/political systems are stagnant and can never evolve! Germany today is the exact replica of the 3rd Reich! Spain are a seafaring empire nation bent on resouce stripping south America (or is that britain) The Uk is a sensory hellhole where people roundly think food is for fuel and sex is merely a procreative tool.... Oh it all makes perfect sense now!
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As someone who lives in a country which I see as a competitor to Europe, which would I prefer? 27 nations each able to act on its own behalf, solve its own problems in a way that suits it best, adopt policies that exploit its own strengths maximally, control its own currency, write its own laws to its best advantage, or a single gargantuan monolith of heterogenious nations squabbling among themselves behind closed doors, babbling at each other in different languages, forced to conform to a single set of policies, laws, one currency with a bank that in trying to mitigate one area's problems only exascerbates another's, rigid, inflexible, unable to move or adjust quickly to changing circumstances, in short a superstate cobbled together to create this artificial entity where the constituent parts have little in common except their geographical proximity and their cultural history of dictatorship. Isn't this what the USSR was? But the USSR had the advantage that one of those entities dwarfed and controlled the others to a degree and they had little to say about it. In the EU, that's not the case at all. All the Lillipution lands have only a small say in what happens. This is why disillusioned France is trying to create a Mediteranean Union where it will be the big cheese.
Some may argue that the US is similarly constrained. But once you get past the most superficial comparisons, the analogy breaks down entirely. It has a very different history, a different development, a different method of governance, and is far more homogenious. As an American, I like the EU exactly as it is. It's far easier to compete against than the individual nation states would be if they were free to act on their own. And also from my point of view, the UK is just another European nation approximately similar to France and Germany in many ways. Sometimes what they say is even comprehensible when translated into my own language. And then again....
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Moving back to the topic of Latvian hard times, and the various reasons for the current dire situation, I might be able to shed some light on how the mismanagement of local government finance has made these small baltic states vulnerable to harm.
Three years ago I was take on a tour of some country areas of both Lithuania and Latvia. I was the guest of local political leaders, and they were showing me the remnants of the old collective farms, a nuclear plant, and the historical sites. All the while we were discussing history, and the political views of the current population.
Now three things became fundamentally clear to me. Firstly, alcoholism was a massive problem in country areas. Secondly, community leaders were still dictating to their communities as know-it-all communists, rather than responding to them as politicians seeking re-election.
Thirdly, and most importantly, I found that there was a huge untapped resource, which was the people's drive to better themselves. There was no doubt in my mind that the people of these regions were prepared to work hard and to build their countries into something modern and profitable.
Now after a tour of a few collective farms, the infrastructure of which had been allowed to fall into complete ruin, I made the comment that the local people only needed to get finance, and then to use that finance to build new industry. I pointed out that the local people were blessed, because they had all the natural resources, the land and the buildings, with which to seek the capital to build their economies.
At that point the local political leader turned to me and said "Oh no. No no no. It has all been done already. Every local government is already so far in debt there is nothing left. Nobody can borrow any more."
I looked out at the ruins of the collective farm in front of us at the time, and at the alcoholics gathered around the community hall, which was falling down. I could see absolutely no evidence that a single penny had been spent in this village, which was the centre of the local government area.
I asked "Are you sure? How did the politicians even know HOW to arrange public finance? I have met them, and they don't understand the first principles of economics."
The answer was chilling:
"After we joined the EU, it was a matter of weeks before the lawyers and bankers from Germany, France and Sweden came in and financed the local governments, and the federal governments. They came in and handed out huge sums of money, and from that point on, the tax revenue of the whole country was devoted to paying the interest on the money that had been lent by the private EU bankers."
My question: "So what happened to that money?"
Answer (with a bitter laugh): "Private airplanes. Huge houses. Big houses in Paris and Zurich. London. Stocks and shares for the new rich."
So that is the story of Latvia and Lithuania, and I presume Estonia and the rest of eastern europe as well.
After these people were gloriously embraced by the wonderful EU, the western bankers came in and gave huge sums of money to whichever communist stooge was smart enough to sign the paperwork upon behalf of "his people".
And from that point on, these little states, and the people living in them, have been crippled by debt. Debt to western european banks, debts that make profits for the very same families who staff the commission due to their birthright: the aristocracy of western europe.
That has been the untold story of EU expansion: the financial enslavement of the east by the west.
Anyway, it is a very sad story. Anyone who knows the details knows how bitter the irony truly is. At the same time as the fat cats in western Europe sing about the EU being united through diversity, their family owned banks have been plundering the ignorant people of the east with calculated, aggressive greed.
And now these states cannot pay for their teachers and their police, because the tax revenue must go to pay the debt on the money borrowed by their politicians.
The EU is rotten, and rotten to its very core. It is a plaything of aristocrats. It always has been. In the west it has been a mechanism for transferring tax revenue to land owners, in the form of farming subsidies. In the east, it has been a mechanism of enslaving millions of peasants via debt.
It is fundamentally undemocratic simply because it was invented and is perpetuated by people who preen themselves with the title of "Lord" and "Baron".
It is as ugly as you like, and to someone who lives in a democracy where nobody is my lord, it is backwards and draconian.
It is corporate feudalism.
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Mavritanius, "the unwillingness to face unpleasant reality.. and that is why both are doomed."
I see "unpleasant reality" on the Russian side.
Keep up with some free spirits who see it on the Europe side.
A minor detail left is to have respective governments "see". In fact they see, I hope we aren't ruled by nuts.
Only it suits them to deny for some reason.
Denial helps them to advance their way.
Being hypocrite helps.
It's all for a reason, to reach own aims with more ease.
Each builds up a platform and defends it.
This is, how to say, in your capitalistic terms - Unfair Competition. Unable to win honestly, you invent crap about the other side. And "don't see" when shoved under own nose your own wonders.
Simply, how to say, weaklings. Sign of a weakness.
We all sympathise with own governments greatly I am sure, because "after all they do it all for you, not for them those
So we excuse them and they are glad to be excused. Can continue in the same mode.
Politejoms @59 "Communist Russia called a Soviet Union"
For purely symbolical reasons of abstract knowledge, about things long gone, acquisition.
We weren't "communist". It was a complex disaster.
Communism was something like Heavens, that we were always promised will be achieved at some point, dates published in newspapers "in 20 years", "in 30 years", just wait and see.
"The next generation of Soveit people will live at communism!" standard line on-going, while generations changed and noone lived to see it. Until all got busted and no hopes left at all ;o).
Our political and society formation was called "socialism". Union of Soviet Socialistic Republics. For a sec. "Soiuz Sovietskih Sotsialisticheskih Respublic" - CCCP.
Communist Party consisting of communists was named so with a focus on future achievements to come, that these are the ones who have a mental idea how the communistic paradise will eventaully become possible and will explain all others. It was an inspirational, kind of vision statement, branding. Every communist will tell you "yeah, unfortunately now we are still at the socialism stage, but if we ll try real hard, one day..."
The diff. is sorry for lecturing - I suspect I am the best trained here in having been made to read volumes of Marx and Sons
- at communism all work as their personal abilities allow and get (goods and services) -as much as they want. (unlimited paradise)
(Don't ask me how it is possible)
- at socialism all work as their personal abilities allow, but get "strictly according to your in-put." Limited. As you sow so you reap. Nothing extraordinary is created, no synergies work.
Btw 1917 and 1991 USSR lived at communism 3 years, in the very beginning. Only Lenin termed it and announced "A Military Communism". Explained all that due to difficult international situation, we temporarily drop socialism and communism dreams, skip what Marx and Engels babbled about, crisis in the country calling for radical measure - we'll have for a while "Military Communism." And began sending komissars around to rob everyone of absolutely all found in the house. New Soviet Country needs gold, needs you rye sacks, needs horses and cows, needs absolutely strangely all that can be grabatised by the state - because there is intervention of Foreign Countries - they wish to use our weakness and grabatise simply land. An invasion. British, American, German navy, all hawk around, landing of the British troops in Arkhangelsk - slogan - "Motherland in Danger!"
The short period of military communism indeed helped the state to become more rich and shoo away foreigners, only own Soviet citizens strangely began to die out in mass amounts. Hunger in St. petersburg of 1920-1922. For example, our Poet Alexandre Blok - died of hunger. Lie down in his apartment in St. petersburg - and died. Nothing to eat. All appropriated by the state. Who forgot in a rush to return back anything to the citizens. Clean swipe. Zero left at homes.
So Lenin re-formulated himself seeing the coup was successful, all goes well, only soon there won't be anyone to rule at all.
And announced - hold tight - capitalism.
"The New Economic Policy - NEP."
Again, explaining it by the emergency of the situation. Like, sorry, we have over-done it a bit too much, should have followed what clever guys Marx and Engles wrote up, not inventing own "military variations" on the theme. Now, radical measures again - we'll violate Marz and Engles a tiny more - just for a while, from necesssity, will have capitalism. And then when we have something to eat again - we'll be back onto our main road - socialism.
And all worked. Country diying from hunger livened up at once. Private enterprise and ownership was allowed again. In 4 years' time there was caviar, pine-apples, crabs delivered from Vladivostok, full shops, private markets, small businesses sewing clothes, selling potatoes, all fine! Just 4 years. enin, though, put a ban on the size of the private business. "Small private only."
Then I don't know what would have happened only he died and Stalin grabatised the power. And what we had after was simply terror, as Stalin spent first 10 years killing out Lenin's old side-liners.
The rest you know.
But there was a short period of "capitalism" even in the Soviet Russia, that the rest of the 20th century was remembered fondly. That's why we bought so easy the Perestroyka ideas, because we thought it will be like that, that thing that worked before.
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@65 democracythreat
I absolutely agree; the same foreign banks who gave lavish amounts post-Perestroyka of credit to ordinary folks in the Baltics, tried to do the same in Russia at the same time.
Baltics only had it harder and their people are more in personal debts now than Russians are.
Because foreign banks were let to play free in the Baltics by the new rules, while in Russia foreign banks are prohibited to work with private individuals, only with companies.
So it is businesses here who are now indebted, not people.
Don't know if businesses are in debt now in the Baltics? the local bloggers know best.
Russian banks, lending to Russians, luckily were always extraordinary greedy and never gave any cheap credits. Standard percentage per year on a bank loan has been and is 36%.
Such a scary number always repelled even break-neck careless Russians.
Whil Rus. businesses had access to cheap money abroad (from foreign banks operating in Russia), and borrowed like mad and are now all in debts.
The situation here is now 1. State (national debts) - nil.
2. Private businesses - debts - mamma mia!!! amounts to Western banks
3. Ordinary people on the ground - some debts a little bit nothing special.
Well, foreign banks do work with individual Russians in Russia, but they become not foreign at that point. Have to register by law as a 100% local bank. They keep old names. But they are not branches. Own entities. Subject to all local nightmarish business rules, so when they put numbers together they also give credits at the same 24-36% per year - as Russian banks!
Raiffeisen Austria. City Bank.
I wanted to open a credit card with CityBank 2 yrs ago. Went to their office, they demanded heaps of papers from the work, salary monthly statements, form from the tax committee, heaps of papers. Finally I brought them all, wondered about conditions - but they were very vague "you'll get the whole info pack together with the credit card."
Then they sent me home their credit card.
Together with the info pack. By a courier, i signed, all great.
I got happy. Thought will use a card now not cash only.
Then read the booklet. All the small print.
Laughed mad.
Took a calculator. Checked myself. Laughed mad again.
Took that card and personally delivered it back to their office. Said I want to have a paper I returned it back un-used, within 24 hrs, and never even began to use it. In case of anything. They were in tatters. Tried to make me keep their credit card. After all the hard work done, papers collection, be happy now. Happy? They charge for every single thing. You breath - they charge.
You take cash out of the cash machine in their own office - 5% charge on the amount.
I had a list of 20 points in the small scrip that I hate.
In short we parted mutaully unhappy with each other, and I opened a card with a Russian bank, less vampire-minded.
Stll quite vampirical, but less than CityBank and Raiffeisen.
Hardly managed to get rid of it! Wished them
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OI! YOU LOT!
I hope you have not missed the significance of the following exchange:
"53. At 03:19am on 07 Feb 2009, SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
To Gheryando.
Do you get paid to post here?"
"56. At 06:02am on 07 Feb 2009, Gheryando wrote:
SB2
Yes, I do. In fact, I am sponsored by the socialist, fascist and whatever else you like to call it EU dictatorship"
Is that a proper use of the taxpayers money?
Please would Mark investigate the matter?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
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Jukka_Rohila!
Sorry! I spelt your name wrong. I hope that did not offend you.
My question still remains. Do you get paid top post here?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Do you think SuffolkBoy2 gets paid by the number of posts? or the extent which he has no humour? or ......
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SB2,
I don't get paid but I am sure others do.
When I first read that the EU through Margot Walstorm's office was subsidising people form the EU to contribute to the Blogs that refer to the EU, my first thought was that I actually felt that this was insidious and tantamount to propaganda.
But there again, after reflection, it dawned upon me that for so very long many people with different persepctives about the EU from a EU sceptic stance have written their opinions and told everyone what they think about the EU that it cannot hurt to have anyone make up the numbers for those, like me, from Britain who feel that perhaps the EU is not a bad project just simply a project that has gone wrong somewhere along the line.
It can be very lonely being British and pro-EU. Thus I actually don't mind others who contribute on behalf of supporting the idea of the EU and ever closer union.
On a personal note I wonder if I could get paid to post here! How does one get on the payroll?
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SuffolkBoy2 - I'm mightily offended that you didn't ask me!
[BTW, I'll gladly accept payment from any source for posting comments here - so long as I maintain full and final editorial control over what I write.]
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To padav01:
I believe that I have not had a reply to the following question:
"182. At 9:38pm on 02 Feb 2009, SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
To padav01
Do you get paid to post here?"
I believe that you have not posted since I asked you that question.
Is that correct? Please answer my question about payment!
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To Gheryando.
I am thinking of asking the "EU" to sponsor me. Please supply me with details as to how I do it!
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To anybody else who gets paid to post here!
Please admit it here in public and supply details.
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Re: 85
No I don't.
Comb your hair! It's a disgrace!
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79. At 4:56pm on 07 Feb 2009, oldnat wrote:
"Do you think SuffolkBoy2 gets paid by the number of posts? or the extent which he has no humour? or ......"
oldnat! How about a straight answer to a straight question?
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Suffolkboy2:
No your poisonous bordering on xenophobia arguments are all the incentive I need to make comments on this Blog. I would do it more often but I have a full time job to keep down.
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#87 SuffolkBoy2
Straight answer - unfortunately no, I wish the SNP budget was big enough for them to pay me though?
Now your turn. I said -
"You must regret the loss of Empire, when England could control large parts of the world through military conquest, repression, and not allowing them democracy."
Do you consider the English to be "better" because they haven't practised dictatorship over their own people - only others.
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Suffolkboy2, I strongly doubt anybody gets paid to post here.
There are legitimate reasons for desiring a European Union, and this view you are pushing that it is some vast conspiracy theory does not hold water.
Turning the debate into a shouting match might be fun, but it obscures the important issues. Those are, what sort of EU is on the table? Whose interests does this vision serve? Is it even remotely democratic? On what basis does it make law that is binding in states who have constitutions that protect human rights?
Webalice, I was not referring to the private debt of the Baltic peoples, nor to the corporate debt of local business. was referring to the public debt of local and federal governments in these states.
For a Ruski, this might be hard to understand, because Russia is a huge state that goes to the international money market for public debt.
What happened to the baltic states was very different. Their public debt was provided by western European banks within seconds of the EU establishing the governmental apparatus to accept such debt. If you are cynical, you'd argue that the EU only went in to set up the baltic governments for the express purpose of lending them money.
And the financiers of Russian public debt would never had done the corrupt deals they did in Eastern europe with russian government, for the simple reason that russian has armoured divisions that can argue the fairness of these contracts. I mean, some opportunistic western banks tried it on, but Putin put a stop to the practice fairly swiftly.
So the debt that russia has absorbed is private, mostly corporate, as you say.
The debt that has crippled eastern europe is public debt. It must be serviced by the tax revenue of the future governments. So this is why latvia can't pay its' teachers or other public servants. (the thread is actually about this exact point! Amazing to be back on topic, nuh?)
Now eastern europe being crippled by public debt to western europe has a historical precedent, and it isn't pretty.
Does anyone here know what that precedent is, or how it ended?
Hint: Austro-hungarian empire, 1914.
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Menedemus @80 wrote:
"When I first read that the EU through Margot Walstorm's office was subsidising people form the EU to contribute to the Blogs that refer to the EU, my first thought was that I actually felt that this was insidious and tantamount to propaganda.'
If the EU is paying people to post opinions favourable to the EU then it definitely is "insidious and tantamount to propaganda" (unless the EU is also paying to a similar number of EUrosceptic commentators).
I have written to Margot Wallstrom requesting clarification.
Meanwhile, should any of the 'regular commentators' to this blog be in the pay of anyone (pro- or anti- EU), I hope they have the decency to come clean about this. Otherwise I can only hope that their innards rot and putrefy and they suffer the terminal torments of Herod the Great who was consumed by worms whilst still alive. (There: that should scare y'all to 'fess up!)
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A few facts:
The EU does not decide the Member States' economic policies, not even for the Euro users.
This crisis requires a trans-national response because it is trans-national in nature. We certainly need more Europe now, not less.
Latvia (and most other East-European states) follwed the anglosaxon model of easy money and consumerism. They did not follow the "German" model of working hard and saving. Fast growth was, of course, an easier political sell than slow but sustained growth.
The chickens are coming home to roost.
It may be hard for the workers losing their jobs, but they also voted for this system. Democracy means rights AND obligations. People tend to forget that they are part of society.
@ikamaskeip
By putting Britain and Germany in the same sentence you gave away that you have no clue about economics. It also seems that you have never visited Germany.
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91 MaxSceptic
Have you tried Margot Wallstrom's own blog?
You could ask her for a job.
Incidentally, were Herod's worms good native ones, or a European imposition?
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democracythreat @90,
aha. yes, I mean, I understood.
There is another option to explain why these governments were installed.
The "cynical" explanation you've mentioned -we normally don't think of that here in the case of Baltics because it's their money now, you know, where how their borrow from the EU since they separated is their country-running business. not pedalled in Russia, in short.
But another reason of rapid local governments' formation is mentioned on the Russian side.
When USSR got financially busted, oil at bottom price, resources sucked out in the chase of USA military tail (how long can one run a country spending 80 per cent on armament and all related, from the state budget. the only budget in the state-non-private case of the USSR? a sheer wonder we survived so long at all!) (LOL. must be socialism isn't that bad economic system. I'd see how long USA folks will stay happy if they were to spend 80% on armament) (:o) just a side note)
anyway when we got busted and Kremlin stalled at a loss what next, it smelled by freedom in the air, Kremlin undecisive... -living wonder ! - and all began to run away centripetal forces. Now each Republic had its nomenklatura tops, fighting for power with each other a bit, etc. Someone would be Republic Communist party head, someone Republic Government local head (2 branches of power in each place).
When the shout hey-hop yahoo got spread -and it was started by the Baltics, mind it. Estonia first one, I think, they began the chain process. Need to check up. Think Estonia. Local Heads of all calibres quickly figured out: one thing is to be Republic within USSR Head - another thing - is to be a President of the New Country. Wow! Lots of possibilities. New structure (all friends and acquaintance can be accommodated), int'l fuss, - the very word - "president". Sounds well.
The rest was a technical matter.
And new countries grew up like muchrooms same folk heading each new one only called now "President".
Absolutely all and each on the ground who I met blame local greed for power of the nomenklatura tops - as the key reason for countries' creation. Things like "freedom" and "democracy" - haven't heard mentioned by ordinary folk.
I think I read here of Latvian bloggers, "we were ruled by the same people". Granted, same people. What else people are there in the USSR? Your local, own nationality - exactly as it was in the USSR times, mind it, absolutely the same, independent, democratic, nationalistic (had to become. otherwise how to explain all the rest what's the point) people.
Especially it is characteristic of the 5 muslim states. There, of all on the ground - not a single human being got the point why to separate from Russia. Any uzbek, tajik, kyrgyz you meet - moans why USSR was dismantled. Blames own politicians. Blames Kremlin for the weakness. "We had such a great country, one could go any where on the distance from Pacific to the Baltic - go work anywhere, no visas, no work permissions, cheap to laugh degree travel, education and industries lots of places to work. Now "if you want to see Paradise - look at Uzbek TV. If you want to see hell - go to Uzbekistan."
The muslim folks lost the most, therefore complain the most.
Baltics - on the edge of Europe, far better location, and tiny in quantity - I am sure will manage somehow.
Industries and agriculture gone of course alas.
Cheer up, Baltics. It's not specific for you only. Russian industtries have been also busted. In the same perestroyka, were not financed and when they began again - equipment out-dated by world standards, you need to start all over again. Besides, the market to sell to shrank by 14 countries, and spare parts all small productions and big productions - part of the chain - were dismantled. Of course not so bad as on the Baltic side but bad enough.
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#73 SuffolkBoy2
Do I get paid to post here?
No, I only receive the warm feeling that comes from the knowledge that I am helping you all along the path to enlightenment ;-)
In case you are wondering, that's constitutional change, an English parliament and independence for England. Now, don't say I'm not good to you xxx
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78. SuffolkBoy2:
"greypolyglot!
Do you get paid to post here?"
YOU STUPID BOY!
Straight answer, NO.
A question for you. Do the editors of most British newspapers get paid to write anti-EU scare stories (I nearly wrote propaganda) because that's the political orientation of their paymasters?
Looking forward to an answer but I notice you like some of your fellow-travellers flit on to the next thread without finishing discussions on the previous ones.
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oldnat @93
Thanks. I am acquainted with Margot's blog. I couldn't, however, ask her for a job as I can't offer anything that would be to the benefit of the EU.
Herod's worms were good, native Judean ones. Legend says he 'acquired' them as a result of blasphemous hubris - believing himself to be the Messiah.
(Gordon Brown - who seems to believe that he 'saved the world' - may wish to take note).
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#96 greypolyglot
You fill me full of dread!
I was so looking forward to his explaining to me that I was wrong, and the British Empire had no "tendency to dictatorship, police-state policing and corruption".
Now you suggest, he'll just run away.
Might there be a faint possibility that, on some future thread, he'll again post that England uniquely is free from these faults, and that I can ask him again?
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to democracythreat
You have been misinformed during your trip to the Baltics because our local municipalities must have a no-deficit budget, which means that they are not allowed to borrow money from banks or from state budget. However, if they want to carry out an expensive project, i.e. build water treatment plant, they must apply to the government and get the government approval to take the loan, which is then added to the national debt. In fact, there are very few municipalities in Latvia that have taken loans.
The problem with our local municipalities is that there are too few people living in them, as the younger generation moves to cities or abroad and only pensioners are left there, so many remote local municipalities have almost no income but high costs, as they still have to finance local infrastructure. Unfortunately, they cannot afford it, so many local schools have closed thus making all the young families to move to towns or cities so that their children can attend schools (there is no public transport or school buses in many of remote areas).
However, you are right when you said that Latvians are enslaved by western banks. Unfortunately, western banks had a strong lobby in our government, so lending was not legally regulated or restricted in any shape or form. There was no credit register introduced, so people could easily take loans in several banks without telling them that they already have a loan in another bank. The credit register was implemented only in 2008 when most of banks stopped giving any loans at all.
In fact, to make the current crisis even bigger, the western banks have sharply risen the APRs on their credit cards and overdrafts (from 19% before to 28% now), as well as their commissions and other bank fees. In addition, they are looking for any pretext to raise the interest on mortgages, too.
Actually, it was the enormous corruption and greed of former Communist Party leaders (who are still in power) that destroyed our economy. They used the state budget as their own wallet by paying enormously high wages to themselves (e.g. Head of Latvian Central Bank earns 172K euros per year, which is more than the Chairman of US Federal Reserves gets), as well as by signing contracts of exaggerated values in order to get the 10% otkat (when company "won" the public tender, it paid 10% of the contract sum to the corrupted civil servants - these 10% are called otkat) so there is no wonder that the state budget got empty and now Latvia has to borrow 7.5bn euros.
These "otkat" moneys were going through the Parex bank which was recently bailed out to let the offshore companies owned by corrupted civil servants get their "otkat" money out of it. In addition, Parex was used by Russian oligarchs too, so much of the bail out money was given to them. Almost 1.2bn euros were put into Parex but now that bank is empty again and demands additional 775M euros from the state budget to pay off their syndicated loans.
Unfortunately, this is just the beginning of the crisis. It will get much worse.
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#97 MaxSceptic
Just before your next post is moderated, I would like to predict it is a bit xenophobic with a hint of 'I feel great to be a superior Brit'. As this is the standard response of Britopiles (was meant to be Britophiles, but I'll just leave it) to anything happening abroad, especially as in this case it involves a a smaller (so inferior) country and is related to hard times. What better chance!
I would like to highlight your continuing embarrassment in this matter by referring to your response to the "idiot" comments, as it thoroughly illuminates your lack of empathy and sort of 'perswonality ugliness'. I say this in good faith that it will not offend, as you are quite prepared to accept comments, beleiving anyone who isn't should grow a thick skin.
"So, which of the following statements is incorrect:
1) Brown is Scottish.
2) Brown is blind in one eye.
3) Brown is an idiot.
Yes - of course, it was a trick question - they are all correct."
Or try:
"MaxSceptic is an [select insult] English idiot."
So, which of the following statements is incorrect:
1) MaxSceptic is English.
2) MaxSceptic is [select].
3) MaxSceptic is an idiot.
(judging by some of his anti-Scottish posts, correct)
Yes - of course, it was a trick question - they are all correct.
Therefore it is perfectly acceptable for me to say it? NO.
There is a distinction between what you say to someone who knows you, and to a public audience, even if it's just out with new friends, who obviously don't.
I think many are missing the point. The phrase was meant as a negative, so the term "Scottish" as used in it, was derogatory. Therefore it labelled "Scottish" as insulting. Yes, it did not convey that every Scot is an idiot but did portray them like that in general terms.
Further, I think would have also been a backlash if Jeremy has said 'fat'. There is no nice way of saying someone is fat and avoiding sounding as if you are criticising.
Should fat people accept criticism as a rule? Only if they want to. Such words said in the public domain deny them the right to express whether or not they see them as acceptable. It is to be told something and not to reply.
That is a lack of respect.
You must assume repsect unless you have reason to assume otherwise.
That's good manners.
As a Scot myself, I'm not that fussed. It's not that the comments make me feel small. (We've been used to being referred to in the derogatory from (some, well, a lot, but I'm not bitter!) English commentators for a few decades or so.)
Rather it's you English guys I want to realise the effect using this language has on yourselves. You look petty, small-minded ignorant and dare I say, out of touch. It's not becomming - you were once a great nation.
Having or not having a thick skin in no way excuses or lets off racism, as I'm sure you'd know.
Ought ethnic minorities, women and homosexuals for example to 'just toughen up' and take whatever name you see fit to call them? Sometimes, maybe, but it is where their choice over whether to do so in this matter is taken away, when I have the problem.
I'd highlight the difference of joshing and light banter. If it is between two groups who do not personally know each other, care is taken to avoid any ambiguous intent.
If it is between two known friends then an insulting term can be used as it can successfully be communicated as not being seriously meant.
In public life, we do not standardly have that intimate luxury and a statement is taken at its literal meaning, however it may or may not have been intended.
Therefore it is common sense and further good manners (c'mon England) not to indulge in such ignorant activity.
I don't think Jeremy meant any real harm, but then again he did, because he is wiley enough to know how his comments sounded but arrogant enough not to care.
Well, if he wants to pi$$ on my nationality then he'll have to take the flack.
If he were in my living room I'd have been able to give him a 'slagging back', then we might have been friends? But in the public domain the subject of his gags have no available action by way of recourse, and so they must by default take it. That is a definition of bullying.
And Jeremy knows it.
"Clarkson only apologied for commenting on Brown's 'personal appearance'.
The remainder of the description is fact. One can't - and shouldn't - apologies for stating facts."
OK, I don't:
"Max Sceptic is an -----, -----, -----,------- [my original adjectives were modded]."
That fine?
"A full-blooded Scotsman or woman confident in the worth of their nationality would never consider the description 'Scottish' as pejorative."
Well, it's not for me to incorrectly assume. It's in the nature of the sentence. Had "Scottish" not been meant to portray the same (insulting) tone as the rest of the sentence, it would have read thus:
"Brown is Scottish and an idiot."
Do you see?
"As for 'racist' - 'Scottish' is a nationality - not a race."
Makes no difference. The term is defined thus:
"Race (noun) - group of humans."
"Today the BBC reports that 'Scotland's first Muslim MSP Bashir Ahmad (born in India) has died in Glasgow, aged 68'. Was he not Scottish?"
What on earth has that got to do with it? I'm not sure I like how your mind works... :-(
"Calm down and stop taking offense where none was intended."
If it was not intended, why not use language that isn't offensive? Simple.
"If I had intended to insult you or your fellow Scotsmen, I would be sure to remove all ambiguity."
Oh, I'm sure you would. It's not me I'm sorry for though, it's you. This looks bad. The English look like a bunch sorely lacking.
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re my #100
OK, MaxSceptic, you can ignore or not my last post. It has finally been passed by the mods on NR's... ;-)
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To anybody who posed the question about payment -
I sit at the computer for hours on end waiting for clients to respond. They pay for that time - eventually - and if they are stupid enough to keep me waiting they are billed for it and then I blog. So yes, in a roundabout way, I do get paid.
If, on the other hand, you are suggesting that I am in the pay of the EU bureaucracy because I am pro-EU, I suggest you go back some way and see what I have had to say about them from time to time.
And if those who do not agree with our position have to fall back on an allegation that we are fifth columnists, they have plainly run out of anything constructive to say on their own behalf.
Finally, I have tried to post to the Wallstrom blog requesting that she state publicly that I am not in her pay - but it is not working. So while we are waiting, anyone of a NuLab bent feel inclined to seek similar assurances from Derek Draper?
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bruximator #92
"The EU does not decide the Member States' economic policies, not even for the Euro users."
No longer directly. But the European Central Bank's policies impose external constraints on members they have no control over. They are in recession and need low interest rates to attract investment by making borrowing money cheap but if there is inflation in another member state's economy that requires high interest rates to cool their economy down. Whichever course the ECB chooses, someone gets badly hurt and has no recourse. That is the penalty of the Euro
But it was worse and might be that way again. In Maastrict, the Growth and Stability Pact imposed a 3% of GDP cap on each nation's annual national debt to avoid what happened to Germany in the 1930s. Violating it would be fined very heavily. The French and Germans insisted on this. And they were the only ones to violate it. They violated it year after year but instead of paying billions of Euros in penalties like they should have and anyone else would have, they "persuaded" the corrupt EU Court to forgo the penalties because that concept was "obsolete" and made no sense to be operative. So the EU did impose economic policy on every one of its members...except Germany and France. Now there is talk about bringing it back again. Does this corruption and hypocricy represent a problem for the EU? No, like all true hypocrites and despots, when confronted by the facts they prefer to look the other way. If they can't, they dismiss those facts as unimportant, trivial, unique exceptions.
Apologists for the failure of any system no matter what it is, say that its true precepts were not adhered to. That those in charge strayed from the "religion." It doesn't matter what the system is or what era it happened in. It is blamed on the individuals that implimented the policies, not the underlying dogma itself. To pretend that the USSR was not Communism, that Nazi Germany was not National Socialism, that the 1920s didn't see laissez-faire capitalism, is to guarantee that history will repeat itself. And that is exactly what we have now, a repeat of the 1920s and the same economic depression that was the inevitable result. Santayana said those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them. And so we have. So called supply side economics, eliminating most regulations and refusing to enforce those that were left, didn't make the current disaster possible, it made it a certainty. There is a lot of talk about "risk" that was not properly assessed. Risk means uncertainty. But anyone looking at the loans that were made and how they were made would easily conclude that it was 100% certain that they could never be paid back. To think otherwise was blind wishful thinking. The deregulaton allowed a monsterous pyramid scheme of 62 trillion dollars of credit default swaps in the US to be created on the assumption that most of those debts amounting to around 5 to 15 trilion dollars would be. All experts on markets will tell you that in a market, there are only two emotions, greed and fear. The policies of the US and UK eliminated fear, fear of loss. That's the ultimate restraint that was removed.
The United States has the very best and most economists in the world. Their schools all preach from the same texts. Once in the working economic world or in academia, they have access to every piece of information about the existing and historic conditions and policies of every economy in history, every mathematical tool known, every piece of technology possible to analyze it with a microscope. They tell the lawyers who run the country what laws to pass. And for all their training, experience, and the money they were paid, they are for the most part entirely worthless. Not only did they bring back the 1920s, they brought consequences of it on top of us again. It was pure laissez-faire capitalism. And now we rely on the same people to "fix" the problem. Every scheme they've tried so far has failed. Each time they are sure they have a cure that will only take six to eighteen months and each time 3 months later they need to administer a newer and more effective cure. Where, when, and how will it end? Don't ask an economist or a politician. They are as corrupt and clueless as the priests of all the other dogmas were. How did we get out the last time? Look it up in a history book. Learn the lesson. Had you understood it before the crash, you could actually have made money out of it.
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Jukks you worried of Ukraine's fortunes,
"a decade more in USSR and no Ukrainians would be left there, Russians only?"
I seem to have explained Ukraine will outlive Finland, Russia and the EU combined.
Here's a prove: Ukraine asked Russia today for a 5 bln loan.
Best friends of tie-eaters.
Best valve holders in the world.
Sebastopol best friends.
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88. At 5:28pm on 07 Feb 2009, Ford Mondeo wrote:
"Suffolkboy2:
No your poisonous bordering on xenophobia arguments are all the incentive I need to make comments on this Blog. ..."
The poison is in the lies and manipulation of "EU"-lovers like Heath.
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89. At 5:30pm on 07 Feb 2009, oldnat wrote:
"#87 SuffolkBoy2
Straight answer - unfortunately no, I wish the SNP budget was big enough for them to pay me though?..."
If they only paid you what you were worth, it would be.
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89. At 5:30pm on 07 Feb 2009, oldnat wrote:
'#87 SuffolkBoy2
...
Now your turn. I said -
"You must regret the loss of Empire, when England could control large parts of the world through military conquest, repression, and not allowing them democracy."
Do you consider the English to be "better" because they haven't practised dictatorship over their own people - only others.'
I do not regret the loss of empire for the sake of the British people. I do regret that many people in Africa live under despicable regimes.
I do not know the extent to which the British could have done more to enable African countries to be democratic once we had left.
I suspect that if I was a better historian I could dispute the idea that it was the English who were the driving force in the British Empire. I have read that the Scots were over three times as heavily represented as their percentage of the British population might have suggested.
When the British took over most of these countries they did not remove a democracy. They removed tyrannies. What they replaced them with was not democracy but something better than they had before. This is my suspicion. I am not a great historian.
Many would have said that the Africans were not capable of governing themselves. I have heard a Scotsman say the same of the Scots. Many would think that history has shown that the Africans were indeed not capable of governing themselves. I am suspect that the transition could have been handled a lot better. Whether it would have worked better in that case is open to debate.
The experience of Britain in the "EU" has shown that representative democracy often does not work. I suspect that there should have been more referenda in the colonies before they got independence just as we should be getting a referendum now.
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90. At 5:32pm on 07 Feb 2009, democracythreat wrote:
"Suffolkboy2, I strongly doubt anybody gets paid to post here."
But somebody has already admitted that they do. On another website somebody else has admitted it.
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81. At 5:06pm on 07 Feb 2009, MaxSceptic wrote:
"SuffolkBoy2 - I'm mightily offended that you didn't ask me!
[BTW, I'll gladly accept payment from any source for posting comments here - so long as I maintain full and final editorial control over what I write.]"
I'm sorry Sweetheart!
My position on payment is the same as yours except that I would have to be allowed to state publicly who was paying me and how much.
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96. At 10:40pm on 07 Feb 2009, greypolyglot wrote:
"78. SuffolkBoy2:
"greypolyglot!
Do you get paid to post here?"
YOU STUPID BOY!
Straight answer, NO.
A question for you. Do the editors of most British newspapers get paid to write anti-EU scare stories (I nearly wrote propaganda) because that's the political orientation of their paymasters?..."
The last time I checked up on a "scare story" was when it was claimed there were plans to let continental police operate in the UK.
I emailed Europol to ask if this was true and was told in no uncertain terms that it was not. They asked me which newspaper had run this story. I found it in the rabbit hutch underneath the rabbit. I think it was the Telegraph. The rabbit liked the Telegraph. I informed Europol.
Then! Wonder of Wonders! I found out that it was true! The Telegraph was largely right. There was a bit on the Home Office website about alleviating the fears of the public. There was some Chief Constable bloke to whom I got immediate access by phone. He told me I need not worry etc.
Anyway there must have been enough people like me creating a stink and it didn't happen in that form.
All this is going from memory -dangerous.
So the scare story was at least largely true.
I have another "scare story" sitting here, which I intend to publicise soon.
Re: "YOU STUPID BOY!" Why is asking a question stupid?
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SuffolkBoy2
You are fighting a losing battle. Forces far more powerful than you have already decided the future shape of Europe. They have a lot at stake, their own personal power. They would like it to look as though Europeans had elected what is coming themselves but if European voters when given a chance don't cooperate, well they'll just be damned. Ireland is the latest example.
Your own countrymen don't seem alarmed. None of the political parties in Parliament are willing to put up more than token resistance, which is about what you'll hear from the British public at large. Just some general grumbling but nothing that amounts to anything. Should a comparable arrangement be proposed and taken up seriously in the US, a North American Union, I think there would be a second American revolution. I know I'd take up arms. I think everyone I know would also.
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"You have been misinformed during your trip to the Baltics because our local municipalities must have a no-deficit budget, which means that they are not allowed to borrow money from banks or from state budget."
I am not sure what you mean. If local government can't borrow, how can it operate?
I may have been misinformed, but I was informed by people who held positions of authority in local government, via a translator.
Clearly (from what you go on to say) local governments MUST be able to raise finance, and indeed they have. Equally clearly, they are not able to raise any more.
"However, if they want to carry out an expensive project, i.e. build water treatment plant, they must apply to the government and get the government approval to take the loan, which is then added to the national debt. In fact, there are very few municipalities in Latvia that have taken loans."
I don't understand your point. The local governments take out loans via the federal government, therefore they do not take out loans?
Look, it would be helpful to keep things clear and to the point. Either the local governments are indebted to the point of bankruptcy or they are not. I take on board your claim that loans are channelled through the federal government. But I put it to you that this is hugely irrelevant. the point is simply that local governments are now left with infrastructure that is falling to pieces and which has been ignored since the soviets left, and that the tax paid by the local populations is servicing debts to western european banks.
"The problem with our local municipalities is that there are too few people living in them, as the younger generation moves to cities or abroad and only pensioners are left there, so many remote local municipalities have almost no income but high costs, as they still have to finance local infrastructure. Unfortunately, they cannot afford it, so many local schools have closed thus making all the young families to move to towns or cities so that their children can attend schools (there is no public transport or school buses in many of remote areas). "
With respect, you are willfully blind to cause and effect. You lament that the regions can't support the populations needed to work the resources. You lament that the schools are shutting down because they can't be financed.
All the while, you simply refuse to admit that the CAUSE of this crippling financial and social situation is the useless debt already subscribed by the governments.
I get sick and tired of reading comments from smart baltic people who think they can explain everything that goes on in their countries to outsiders simply because they speak the special language.
The points I made still stand, and your comments confirm them precisely.
Latvia is now facing massive and prolonged social problems because of the staggering corruption of its leadership during the glorious entry into the EU.
In short, the ultra nationalistic patriots sold their own people down the river for a handful of German gold. These "true balts" could not sell their fellows out fast enough. They took private fortunes and they destroyed the future for their neighbours children.
The irony that these people wrap themselves in flags and set cultural tests for others in their communities is beyond measure. It is so bitter, and so outrageous, that it suggests conscious fraud.
And it is not only the ultra patriots who have defrauded the baltic people. It is the EU officials, as well.
There is a lot of talk about what the EU is not, in terms of the democratic deficit. Everyone knows the EU is not democratic.
But there is very little talk about what the EU really is, in business terms.
The EU is a private club for aristocrats with vast land holdings and vast shareholdings in banking firms. These firms are privately owned, and they operate to generate profits for the owners.
As such, so is the EU. It is privately owned, and it is operated for the sake of generating profits for the shareholders.
That is why the current credit crisis is such a crisis for the EU itself. Just us our financial institutions are claiming to have become bankrupt "all of a sudden", we are being asked to subsidize these same institutions so that they can continue their great work.
Europe is being asked to pay for a class of profiteering lords who have been treating the landscape and its people like a farm holding so many idiot cattle, livestock to be moved this way and that, to be presided over like chattels.
Well, let Latvia be a lesson to every european. This is what happens when a class of superior people rule. Despotic oligarchy.
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"Suffolkboy2, I strongly doubt anybody gets paid to post here."
"But somebody has already admitted that they do. On another website somebody else has admitted it."
I see. Oh well, it doesn't matter.
I mean, it does. It does matter that the EU is spending out money to perpetuate itself when it represents a select class of superior human beings. Sure.
But in another way, it doesn't matter.
We still have to talk about the issues. If we don't talk about why these people are unfit to rule over us, they are going to win the battle for the hearts and minds of Europe.
Because they own it, and they own the apparatus for talking to it.
But the lords and the barons do not own reason, and they do not have a monopoly on the political will of the people.
One day there will be direct democracy in Europe, and these ridiculous class divisions will be looked at with horror by an enlightened citizenship.
I doubt it will happen in our lifetimes, but history only moves in one direction, and it is moving away from the divine right of kings.
Switzerland is going to have the last word in Europe.
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MarcusAurelius wrote: "The deregulaton allowed a monsterous pyramid scheme of 62 trillion dollars of credit default swaps in the US to be created on the assumption that most of those debts amounting to around 5 to 15 trilion dollars would be. All experts on markets will tell you that in a market, there are only two emotions, greed and fear. The policies of the US and UK eliminated fear, fear of loss. That's the ultimate restraint that was removed. "
Marcus, I think it was even worse than you suggest.
The problem was not simply that the markets were UNREGULATED. It was, as you imply, that the markets were regulated towards a state of zero fear of loss.
When I was an undergraduate studying corporate law, I wrote a paper that criticized our entire curriculum. My point was essentially that our corporate regulator was prosecuting people who had made money from the greed and ignorance of middle class investors. The media and the government were pretending that the market was a fair place full of nice people, and that ignorant nice people were losing their money in the market. Therefore we, as corporate lawyers, needed to learn about how to stop this "problem".
My argument was that this policy by western governments, to protect ignorance in the market, was really just another way of protecting greed. I argued that our entire structure of corporate regulation was devised to suit stockbrokers, because it perpetuated a fantasy that was useful to them.
In short, if Mr & Mrs Middle class can be convinced that the market is friendly and nice, and REGULATED, then they will part with their savings and invest. And that suits stockbrokers.
So I argued that our entire curriculum of corporate law was defunct, and that it was perpetuating greed in the name of fairness, and that it was controlling the market by sponsoring ignorance in investment strategy.
That was the only subject I have ever failed, anywhere, ever. I was, from that point on, a pariah in the corporate world.
So our problems are much greater than non regulation. We have been regulating our markets to protect the fools and to sucker them into these ponzai schemes.
And is it surprising?
Our democracy is so corrupted by the lobby groups of the corporate sector that our laws are written by the hirelings of the super rich. Is it any wonder that these people have been regulating the market to suit their ponzai schemes?
And now we face more of the same. Now these same people want to saddle our grandchildren with crippling debt so that they can continue to run their crooked casino.
We need direct democracy more than ever before. The system of representative democracy has been undermined by the corporate sector to the point of complete collapse.
Obama won his election on change we can believe in, but I would prefer change we can articulate. That is why I advocate direct democracy, and point to Switzerland.
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All-
We all write amongst ourselves, but leave our respective countrymen bereft of any solutions found amongst friends, ammicably by pen not sword.
I would guess that all could be hailed as Patriots, if one would use it's true meaning and strip it of any stupid allegiance to any government, which at best are thieves for collecting taxes and at worst slave masters for their intrusions upon our lives. But instead honor patriotism's purpose and define it as those who love their own land /people and add luster to the name by our actions and advice.
These problems are government made and if not corrected by this generation will grow like a vine until they are a choking tyrrant on future generations throats. What parent would gladly waite for a snake egg to hatch and vex it's children than crush it's threat with a heal than does nothing at the time.
We should through this corespondence endeavor to ensure our own freedoms by spreading freedom to others. Whose freedom could be more assured than a peoples that gurantees all peoples freedom.
I think we are ahead of you in the Americas in this all, because almost every country in theis hemisphere has voted for Change recently. The question is no longer should there be change, but what it shoud be and how can we effect most efficeintly.
Our current government, both Democrat and Republican insult our Constitution and Ignore our bill of rights. This is done without debate with or consent of the governed.
We schedule meetings on Meet-up.com, we debate and correspond through the Campaign for Liberty and Save the Republic, but that is not what is needed. What is needed is the spark, the symbolic shot heard around the world that will be recognized by free men everywhere as the call to throw off the bonds of un-elected governments and re-turn the respective countries to their rightful soveriegns the people, and by doing so properly cage these out of control beaurcrats that betray our Constitutional governments, spend our future Grandchildren's fortunes and vex our freedom.
What God gave this rabble the right to tell us what weapons we can have in our house, what we will pay to cancel the debts of their borrowing or how we will live.
Today, I ws reading Dr. Ron Paul's book "A Foriegn Policy of Freedom- Peace, Commerce, and Honest Friendship" and I read the following card within (if we could substiute U.S or America with the name of your own country to whom would it not apply)
RESTORE AMERICA'S SOVEREIGNTY
The NAFTA superhighway is just one part of a plan to erase the borders between the US, Mexico and Canada in order to form a North American Union.
This spawn of powerful special interests would create a single nation out of Canada the US, and Mexico, with a new un-elected bureacracy and money system.
Forget about controlling immigration under this scheme....and a free America, with limited, constitutional government, would be gone forever.
We must withdraw from any organizations and trade deals that infringe upon the freedom and independence of the United States of America.
Me again-sounds pretty familure????
America needs to get our Citizen Soldiers back from the Middle East asap, before the Government trys to pick up our assault Rifles and suspend our Constitutional Freedoms, because what US Constitution will apply to a Mexican or Canadian government. This may be the biggest power grab by a special interest group posing as a government in the history of the world. Is what happening in Europe making you more free?????
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to democracythreat
I am not denying the fact that Latvians are now enslaved to western banks and International Monetary Fund and we are no longer owners of our own land as it is completely ruled and regulated from outside (EU, IMF and western banks). As for what you call "glorious entry into the EU" - ordinary Latvians never wanted to join the EU. We use to say that it does not matter how you vote - all that matters is how you count the votes.
We have huge national debt and huge private debt but virtually no local municipality debt because they must have balanced budgets. There is a system to ensure that, i.e. richer municipalities must put some funds into our local cohesion fund so that poor municipalities can get the missing funds to ensure their balanced budgets.
By the way, our local municipalities can borrow only from the State Treasury, i.e. state budget, though in some cases they can also borrow elsewhere providing that they get better terms and it is approved by the government (state level).
By the way, we do not have any federal governments in Latvia. We have state level and local municipality level only (though we had what you call federal government level in the past but they also had to have balanced budgets and they could only borrow from the state budget, though it was very difficult to get such loans).
However, at the end of the day it does not really matter that our local municipalities have balanced budgets, if our state has not.
The cause of the crisis is the fractional reserve banking system, when banks are allowed to lend money they do not have. This way they inflate the housing and debt bubble and enslave people.
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To democracythreat (112):
I think it shows that you don't have strong background in neither economics or in general history.
When the USSR collapsed and both Russia and newly independent countries were exposed to the global markets and global competition, it soon became very clear that they didn't have any capability to produce nothing valuable for the world markets thus rendering value of everything from infrastructure and industries to private property near zero. The only usable resource at these countries were their people and their ability to work, however even that value was so low that people were better off with working in non-traditional parts of tourism and entertainment industries.
The only way newly independent countries could get up and running was to import capital and people from western countries, in essence sell anything that was sellable. These policies brought foreign firms that invested into all parts of economies not only bringing capital but knowhow via expansion of western organizations and western working methods. For example financial and banking industries were brought quickly via expansion of Nordic banks; infrastructure from general telecommunications to mobiles were build by either foreign or joint partnership companies; and higher levels of manufacturing was brought by companies western companies, i.e. electronics.
Now if we look at these countries, they have become more prosperous and developed countries in very short time. This is very remarkable feature when they have started year zero in economical sense and without almost any exportable raw materials or resources. For example Estonia's GDP per capita (nominal) is 170% of that of Russia or 334% of Belarus or 507% of Ukraine. By economic indicators these countries have done everything right, they have went against all odds on not just doing better than other former Soviet Republics but doing better than most People's Republics and even starting to close cap with countries such Portugal and Greece.
I should also add that Baltic states are currently making the transformation from foreign investment pulled countries into countries which rely more and more to home grown new economic activity and new enterprises. For example Skype while having Swedish founders and investors was largely build in Estonia. Those people, engineers and business persons, who took part on building Skype will next start to spring fully local new enterprises.
I should also add that the economic history of Baltic states in the last few decades has largely been the same that many other countries have followed in previous time. For example the economy and industries of Finland were largely build by German, British and Swedish industrialists and investors in 19th century from were the economy started to expand and become more and more home grown, diversified and developed. Of course we should also take note that in global economy, companies and ownership are global, i.e. Nokia is largely owned by foreign capital especially American pension funds. In the same way Finnish pension funds have diversified their investments globally.
The current global economic crisis has hit everybody, especially growing economies, that however doesn't mean that they did nothing particularly wrong, what it means that we have global intermission where both global and local activities are checked up and when the markets again get their confidence back, economic growth will resume as it was before.
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About economics and finances...
You said: "In short, if Mr & Mrs Middle class can be convinced that the market is friendly and nice, and REGULATED, then they will part with their savings and invest. And that suits stockbrokers."
The markets are friendly, nice and regulated. What went wrong in large scale was that people didn't do their due-diligence on investing and didn't calculate or take account on risks when leveraging themselves. That is business as usual. If you are investing into a company, buying their stock, for you to earn you have to take a look at the company, to your stock portfolio and to your own financial needs. If you can't do that work then you have to do the work on thinking on to who you can trust on looking after your funds, for example to people making too good to be true offers or to people with modest claims and known operative history.
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You said: "I mean, it does. It does matter that the EU is spending out money to perpetuate itself when it represents a select class of superior human beings. Sure."
You said "Because they own it, and they own the apparatus for talking to it.
But the lords and the barons do not own reason, and they do not have a monopoly on the political will of the people.
One day there will be direct democracy in Europe, and these ridiculous class divisions will be looked at with horror by an enlightened citizenship."
Excuse me, but from which country and culture you come up as your view on things just seem to be ridiculous? Lords and barons owing the EU? I'm sorry, but only small part of the global capital is owned by so called rich people, most of the capital is tied into pension funds and investment funds which answer to normal middle and working class people. Also where does this notation of classes come from? In most of Europe you have more or less egalitarian systems where class divisions have more or less diffused.
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aye_write @100 & 101,
Tut, tut... your obsession with rebutting unintended slights is giving unwarranted credence to the mistaken and stereotypical belief that all Scots have a chip on their shoulder.
(BTW, if Scotland was to gain independence and join the EU as a separate country, how do you think it would be portrayed in the next version of 'Entropa'? A tennants-export-strength sodden deep-battered haggis would be getting off lightly, bearing in mind that the whole of Bulgaria was likened to a squat toilet).
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#60 Diana – I am glad you bring back the discussion on Latvia, but it is something to be valued that the EU, Russia and the world get dragged in. I wrote before that there is a great risk that we chose to see the problem of Latvia as local, considering that the system is right and it is merely a problem of the right or wrong leaders, or others executing with mistakes the program.
I agree full heartedly with you that there are no current or alternative leaders worth that name: stooges would be more appropriate perhaps as many are owned and manipulated with or without their awareness. However, I consider more important and crucial for Latvia’s turnaround, and ability to show example to the EU, to consider the historical roots. Latvia by virtue of being a fringe country, not so fully engulfed by the dominant world-view paradigm, can from this perspective offer an outside point of reference. This cannot be simply more hard work and suffering, and futile word smiting with so called ‘experts’, who have led to the present crisis and now are demanding vast resources to do more of the same. Latvia needs to build on its people’s resourcefulness as you suggest, through entrepreneurship, but also through participation and rejection of ‘dictated’ answers.
Unfortunately, Democracythreat (#65) is right in that people govern and folk accept dictated solutions (point 2 of his observations). Pay-scale, connections, positions and titles, wealth, university titles unfortunately weigh more than open discussion and participation. In my experience people listen and do not speak up in large gatherings, and too easily points are narrowly defined and approved. People are afraid of participation and too often prefer to carve a space in their jobs or little private area (95% of Latvian business employ less than 10 people). Also people have a strong aversion for risk taking and failure is stigmatized by society all too often. Especially if anyone has thoughts or ideas that are not mere copies of ‘higher cultures’ demonstrated elsewhere, the normal reaction shows that Latvians do not trust themselves with the capability of being innovative.
This lack of assertiveness is traceable to a history of emasculation through successive colonial powers of which the EU is the latest. I will go in some detail below or a next post if space doesn’t permit here. But some specific instances need to be acknowledged immediately. When there is someone who knows best be it the EU finance people, the banker, the Politburo or the German overlord, inevitably the male qualities of self determination and assertiveness get emasculated. And worse, they get ingrained through generations in a mid set which largely explains the paradigm of tough women and weak men.
In everyday Latvia this emasculation is the hallmark of every government figure. Hardly anybody escapes the lure of wealth, power, envy, greed and sloth. To travel Europe or dine with fat cats is too great a temptation for men incapable of seeing or defending their ground. Sloth, apathy, prevents any meditation that could give meaning to the notion of Latvian culture that could drive its entrepreneurial spirit. At worse it is sloth that best explains why no authority has a standpoint that is not mere despicable empty nationalism that crudely exploits the hurt feelings of the people and blames always someone else for every wrong (today it is Russians, as earlier it was Germans and Brits, and soon the Swedish bankers, the EU and the US). Beyond the obvious externalities the ‘I am not responsible’ attitude for suffering is a potent demonstration of the emasculated state of the average Latvian, and it is this mental state that needs to be overcome with urgency.
I had extensive talks with high ranked officers of the Ministry of Economics where I was told that innovation or special efforts were not welcome, that people couldn’t be denied the bigger TVs and electronics they wanted and hence the inflationary policies would be kept. When I talked education I couldn’t help feel the bigoted attitude towards a one size fits all science oriented education. Never mind that the people of Latvia now have a profound rejection for Soviet style ‘guided’ types of education and yearn for a humanistic broadening of their minds (and, yes also their souls which the Soviet ‘demonstrated’ that don’t exist). When I exchanged views with business schools these were adamant that the only thing required was to mill everyone through classes preaching liberal economics and corporate management from the US and EU, which people were expected to take in verbatim without any reaction, contribution or assimilation.
A further obstacle to independent thinking and individual and group action, beside the ‘soft’ mental, inner impediments, rests in the coercive nature of the institutional and para-institutional mechanisms. It is part of everyday life that you are threatened as the arrest o a professor and singer who expressed their views on the currency showed last December. You can be dragged in court and be on trial for many years while you are impeded to work, your assets are frozen and you are not allowed tom leave the territory, while your reputation is forever tarnished. No hope or right for a speedy trial; no presumption of innocence; no prevention of a medieval language in the indictments that portray you as an evil conspirator with foul intent – no words like ‘allegedly’; no jury system; no clear recourse to EU courts; and yes, language knowledge used against you, delays and dragging of proceedings, exhaustion of financial reserves used against the weak parties (often the not guilty) and in advantage of the Machiavellian conspirators (the often guilty but almost always untouchable).
That people from abroad perceive the situation as fascist like or question the importance of a small culture that seems so determined to self annihilation, while manipulated by the few to secure wealth and power, is not surprising. Many foreigners returned Latvians from exile, and very many local entrepreneurs have experienced arbitrary and protracted tax revisions, company bank account blocking, protracted legal processes, police and non-police monitoring, ordered arrests, threats of physical violence, and manipulated processes in courts and tons of red tape. As a society daily events have shown intolerance of homosexuals as when the gay parade a few years back was attacked with excrement while the police did nothing to prevent it or arrest the attackers. The same goes for colored people that have been attacked and not protected by police. Or a host of other situations that reveal a profound insecurity and fear of anything different, to which the response is always non-tolerance and suppression by any means necessary. This entire system and colonialized mind-set works against individual and social liberties to take on risk, experiment and challenge rules that keep folk of Latvia in servitude.
#99 Laughing Latvian is right about the prevalent otkat but I have seen way higher ‘slices’ and this doesn’t consider the opportunity costs of anything. It is relevant here to point that the fact that people flock to Riga to the tune of 50% of the population or more, and maybe 80% of GDP, is an abject failure of government. The abandoning f the territory and callousness towards social inclusion is a reflection of the lack of cultural self-awareness and mental servitude of those in power positions. There are plenty of practical things that can be done, within reach, I short time and little resources that are not done and purposefully postponed. Participation in a democratic way is one for sure while dissent is strongly repressed. But simple infrastructure projects like for instance renovation of the railway system to enable the already existing stock to operate at decent speeds to make this a normal connecting mechanism for the country. I learned that the networks average speed is less than 50km/h when by design with little improvements it can do very reasonably 120-130 km/h. Instead the grandiose plan, with plenty more otkat is the fast train to link capitals and Europe in some distant future.
Unless we take stock of the historical conditioning and colonization of our minds and begin to be more appreciative in modern ways of what Latvian culture has to offer, and not in a defensive manner where
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#118 MaxSceptic
"aye_write @100 & 101,
Tut, tut... your obsession with rebutting unintended slights is giving unwarranted credence to the mistaken and stereotypical belief that all Scots have a chip on their shoulder."
Max, you interest me!
(See my response on NR.)
"(BTW, if Scotland was to gain independence and join the EU as a separate country, how do you think it would be portrayed in the next version of 'Entropa'? A tennants-export-strength sodden deep-battered haggis would be getting off lightly, bearing in mind that the whole of Bulgaria was likened to a squat toilet)."
Aha, so you were 'Entropa's' featured author of the month!
Do you not see you have rebutted my argument with insults?
This has little effect, as we Scots are used to receiveing them from, well, too large a portion of English society (and certainly recently I'm afraid a majority of English posters on here.)
I repeat, this does not make you look good (sensible, calm, rational, reasoned, approachable!).
Why do you delight in such descriptions of me (us, Scots)?
Seriously, did one bop you on the nose when you were young?
English people in the main I normally find delightful (probably because of our differences I suppose). But you, while still a good phrase-master, are a tad, em, hurtful. Do you mean to be?
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democracythreat #114
Greed is not the problem. Greed is a crucial asset for human survival. If there were no such thing as greed, we'd only produce what we require to meet our immediate needs and then rest. Greed is the engine that creates wealth. We produce more than we need to store for the future, sell, or swap for other things we want, defer pleasure with the fruits of our labor, invest, take risks for the prospect of increased pleasure later on. Were it not for greed, we'd still be living in caves hunting only as much meat as we needed for today. All higher animals and many lower animals show greed. Greed for their hunting territory, greed for their mates or prospective mates. They compete to survive. Greed is an inherent part of what makes us human. Any system which does not take this into account, which ignores the consequences of unchecked greed must fail. That is the principle behind the American system of government, it sets equally greedy people against each other, each faction having the power to keep the others in check. It assumes what some would consider the worst in people, not the best and is rarely disappointed. It channels greed productively insofar as that is possible, punishes it when that fails.
The real problem is lying. Even animals will lie to protect what they have greedily stored and experiments with chimpanzees show that they know when they are being cheated and it makes them angry. Believe it or not, they know how to count and know that if another chimp got a greater reward for performing the same task as they did, they are aware of it. How many people would have bought credit default swaps if they had been told the truth that virtually 100% of all of the loans in them would not be paid in full, in fact would almost certainly go into default in about two or three years? They'd have been worthless. Instead, rating agencies rated them AAA. It is human nature to lie especially where greed and the prospect of profit is concerned. Usually this is a crime called fraud and we punish it with fines and imprisonment. That's where the system broke down. Deregulation was the mechanism that allowed liberals to arrange for people who couldn't possibly afford to buy their own home, the "American dream" to buy one anyway on loans they could never hope to pay back. All they had to do was lie about their income and assets and they were given as much money as they asked for. Conservatives went along with it because there was money to be made by their friends generating and then selling the loans to others, foisting the inevitable losses on hapless victims who were lied to. So who are the real criminals? Our politicians and credit agencies by decriminalizing and abetting the perpetrating of fraud. And who are the ignorant fools? The people who bought those CDSs without investigating them and the economists who made it possible. Economists like Alan Greenspan argued that regulations put in place in the 1930s reduced the potential for profits. That was exactly their intent because those short term profits result in long term catastrophic losses and financial collapse. That is what he didn't understand about markets. He testified to before Congress a couple of months ago that there was something he didn't understand. As a result, the US, the greatest and largest engine of wealth in history almost ground to a halt and both the US and the rest of the world are bankrupt.
It is impossible for me to feel sorry for people who were swindled by Bernie Madoff and his ilk. They were going to get 20% return on their investment every year. (That's doubling of your money every 3 1/2 years using the rule of 72. If you don't know the rule of 72, put your money under your matress or in a safe, you are not qualified to invest it.) They couldn't be bothered with the time and effort it took to make sense of what they were being told, they were too lazy. They were rich and had an "in" with an investor who knew where the gold was really burried. They had an advantage over other less wealthy investors and felt privileged. What irony, what poetic justice. And their greed kept them from diversifying, they put it all in with the same crook because he promised the highest returns and they were so stupid they believed him. What about charities and pension plans? They paid people called professional money managers large salaries to handle their investments, supposedly qualified people who would work hard and invest it wisely. Instead, they handed it all over to a thief and spent their lives playing golf instead of working for those salaries. Same with investment bankers. Fools and their money are soon parted.
How will 62 trillion dollars of CDSs and up to 600 trillion of other derivitives be paid for when the entire GDP of the whole world for an entire year is well under 60 trillion dollars? It cannot be collected in taxes. Not only isn't there anything like that kind of tax money available for this in any rational time span, the attempt to collect even a fraction of it would crush what's left of the our failing world economy. Then there is only one place it can come from and that is to print it starting with the only place that could get away with it on such a scale, the Treasury Department of the United States Government. It doesn't have to print all 600 trillion or even all 62 trillion, only enough to pay the loans (mortgages, credit card debt, and its own debt) at the base of the inverted pyramid. That might be say 10 or 15 trillion. This will of course result in huge losses in real monetary value to the lenders; banks, mortgage companies, the Chinese government but who cares? That will be their problem. In a real sense they deserve it. They were also fools. It's the only solution that has a prayer of working and it is the last resort government has been avoiding like the plague. BTW, it's mentioned in the PDF file on Robert Peston's blog site although it is not carefully examined or explored in any depth there. The good news at least for Americans is that unlike the great depression of the 1930s where the assets bought with failed loans were worthless pieces of paper, stock certificates in bankrupt companies, a lot of the investment was in real tangeable capital assets, houses which will be used by somebody even if it isn't the people who originally bought them. The bad news is that this will not happen until many more banks, private companies, individuals, and even nations are bankrupted first. How forturnate that the US government cannot be bankrupted because of those printing presses. As many economists have pointed out, it's capacity to print money is infinite. So why would people want US dollars? Because it is the one thing they can count on to survive. If it doesn't, no other financial assets in the world will be worth anything anyway.
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To LibreHacer (199):
You said: "But simple infrastructure projects like for instance renovation of the railway system to enable the already existing stock to operate at decent speeds to make this a normal connecting mechanism for the country. I learned that the networks average speed is less than 50km/h when by design with little improvements it can do very reasonably 120-130 km/h. Instead the grandiose plan, with plenty more otkat is the fast train to link capitals and Europe in some distant future."
I would bet that the reason on not investing on repairing existing railway system is that fixing the system to allow speeds of 120-130 km/h just doesn't add enough value.
When looking at the map of Latvia and looking at the population numbers of cities, there is just no economic justification on using the money on local transportation as using the money to cross-national transportation project just gives the better return of investment. For example Via Baltica should be a motorway all the way from Tallinn to Warsow, but only few short snippets of it are motorways. The same goes to railroad transportation, there is no idea on connecting local town with fast railroads, but benefits of connecting for example Riga to Warsow and Berlin with a bullet train would be substantial.
I should also add that the other thing for reluctance on investing on local rail roads that the link from Warsow to Tallinn and Helsinki via under see tunnel would be logical to be build using western European gauge in rail track to allow faster transportation from end to end without changing trains.
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To Jukka_Rohila.
Julla, I have already asked you if you get paid to post here. I believe that you have not replied. Please would you reply?
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Help!! Help!!! INVASION FROM TROLL-LAND IN MARK'S EUROBLOG!!! SOS!!
Honestly..this is getting ridiculous...
I almost enjoy it
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MA @121.
I don't know the rule of 72 (and is therefore rightly inclined for matresses). When I want to know how much is 8% of something concerning my money, I divide it by 100 and multiply by 8. To be on the safe side, your know.;o) those zeros.
Moreover I am a zero macro-economist.
On this not even an amateur level it is though possible to think un-prejudiced, as min. ? LOL.
I think there are 3 things that matter about your USA for the rest of us now.
One is your debt those trillions those zeros 600, or 60, or 660. (just make sure it's not 666, OK? :o)
I think if you owe it somehow, or you think you owe it, it is aj jai jai. You spent it, lived well, swapped with the world for your green paper. Others worked and produced goods, which you consumed and you swapped like with zumbu-tumbu tribe with a ring in the nose, for glass bead neck-lace.
(Clearly Capt.Cook and aboriginals spring to mind, british influence and experience you took on board. Plus own historic experience accummulated in dealing with slaves.
National memories of Europeans colonising others, accummulated nations' wisdom - spoke in you, in that enterprise.
What to do, your heritage, you were able to capitalise on it. All have various strengths; that was yours.
Here we can only hope you won't look for the way out like in 1930s, when the USA got out of recession really by 1945 only. By war, I mean. And not USA only, all capitalists' combined. Because it was a common recession.
The world can only hope the rich and powerful won't apply old recepies to get out of crisis. To put a check on USA simply nobody can.
(Please keep in mind this is not 1930-s crisis, allright? ;o) Far worse. So the old recepie might not work. Will be shout and ruin for nothing.)
Two What matters for the world USA is the world's technology base. Don't know how others can make any use of it, needs to be thought about, but it is a good thing about you, positive side. (Unlike the 66 zeros)
I guess something useful can be made of it.
Three It's that you consume 40% of consumer goods produced in the world.
This is a good habit as well.
Again, don't know how can be utilised now, but like No2 - list it on the positive side.
That's all meaningful ;o) about the USA there is, I think. To work with these 3.
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To SuffolkBoy2 (123):
I don't remember that you have asked directly from me on if I get paid to post here or not. I would say that asking such a question is more or less impolite as it essentially questions my opinions, views and participation on these discussion being driven by money and not driven by intellectual curiosity and drive to learn more by arguing and discussing different subjects.
For your question the normal answer would be from neutral, "its not your position to doubt my motives" to an openly hostile answer. However as I'm a very open person by nature I can answer your question.
No, unfortunately not. I don't get paid to post here. The only return I get on participating on these discussion and posting here is intellectual challenge on justifying and explaining my world view and even sometimes changing that view or adding new elements to it.
Of course I should add that I'm very interested on politics and plan to join the Finnish conservative party (officially Finnish National Coalition Party) sometimes in the future when I have become a little bit older and I have earned some merits that give me background and backbone to participate on common decision making be it in the local, national or European level. For that possibility discussing about the EU, about the Europe and world generally, and for life in general discussing my views and putting them out in the open and exposing them for critique allow my thought and logics be purer and my positions in different issues be more solid. For example due to partly on discussions in here I have a clear position about the EU and its future and can say that I'm a Federalist and want an sovereign European Federation where balance of power leans in favor of states instead of the federal government.
Of course if somebody would want to save me from the world of start-up entrepreneurship and beating my head constantly on building up enterprise software then please contact me. Also young attractive female heiresses can contact me too, I would be very open for a career change to a gigolo. ;-)
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@117 "when the Baltics entered the world economy it became rather soon clear they don't have anything competitive to offer to the world." (approx. your idea)
Sure; they were simply not meant to before.
Within the USSR frame.
USSR on the whole - eacj of its constituent parts - had little to offer to the world, of competitive goods.
Wonder why? Post 1945 USSR was "contained." The "containment" policy applied to us. I am sorry, but the West did not want to compete honestly, ugh! those communists! you cut us all away, no exit to the world market. A million regulations that tied us up.
It's not that USSR didn't want to trade.
You didn't want to compete honestly, squared us and strangled.
In effect all goods and consumtion within USSR was internal. Made for the own market. By own means. From own components and by applying own technology. Our engineeers had no acess to the world. They did not attend professional conferences, had no acess of info exchange. Boiled in the own soup.
What you capitalised upon in sharing, we invented all ourselves - double!
We kept inventing all the bicycles ourselves.
Still - when USSR was dismatled - its countries could have kept afoat without plummeting down so much, or getting hooked onto Western finance.
They still HAD a market eager for their goods.
15 countries was our common market.
Plus the Eastern Europe.
And what the West had done? Left them alone to decide for themselves how to compete?
No, they were cut off away, from Russia, and from the 14 others alike.
Off away, from their traditional markets, and traditional suppliers.
"Look to the West! Break free!" The West inspired and paid for nationalistic madness, so much PR on the horrors of USSR. Forget it all! work with us only! nothing good you had before! don't look back!
And individual countries - Latvia - for example - since we talk of Latvia here - "splashed out the water together with the baby"
Simply brainwashed by you.
Now you will spend centuries trying to restore them, to put on the same ground.
Another several decades - and someone clever in the EU will figure out that it's better to have Latvia have agriculture and they sell its produce to nearby North-West Russia, than to keep them on IMF funds.
You could simply allow yourself before to keep them. Now you worry about own finance - may be politically incorrect old trade partners for the Baltics - won't look so disgusting? in the new light?
Whatever their products were - they were allright for 14 other countries.
No EU directive will prove to Russians that Latvian cheese is bad!
Sorry ;o) somehow I always get back to cheese.
LOL
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And Rizhsky balsam.
Who knws here but Russians - and 13 other USSR countries. What is - "Rizhsky balsam"?
Speak up! They were yours soon these 20 years. On one "rizhsky balsam" they could have held for years!
What has EU given them?
Money.
A NATO base as well, likely.
What about the other base, agriculture and industry?
May be Latvian products weren't "competitive" Jukka, on the world stage. But you don't have to be loved worldwide, when you are 3.5 mln people. It's enough that they had a market of 14 republics before. A 14 countries' active tax-free market - for a tiny country. Not bad, er?
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" #110. SuffolkBoy2:
Re: "YOU STUPID BOY!" Why is asking a question stupid?"
Of course asking a question isn't stupid. It's asking a stupid question that is stupid. (anyway it was intended in the manner of Captain Mainwaring)
Without even bothering to go back over my various comments I'm sure that I will have demonstrated that while I do know a fair bit about the EU I certainly don't know as much as would be known by someone paid to post here. Unless of course you're sufficiently paranoid as to suspect that I'm just playing at not having all the answers to all the questions.
Ah, hang on a minute, I realise that I've just answered my own proposition.
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" # 110. SuffolkBoy2:
GP:
Do the editors of most British newspapers get paid to write anti-EU scare stories (I nearly wrote propaganda) because that's the political orientation of their paymasters?..."
SB:
The last time I checked up on a "scare story" was when it was claimed there were plans to let continental police operate in the UK. "
British police are always going abroad to help out continental police identify football hooligans. It's called "co-operation". Do you have a problem with it happening in reverse? Perhaps you prefer foreign trouble-makers to get off unidentified and unpunished.
By the way do you also have a problem with continental footballers, surgeons, doctors, nurses, home-helps, plumbers, etc. operating in the UK? If so you then you might come to understand why some people have called you xenophobic. Sorry, but liking foreigners only when they are in their own countries does not make the term inapplicable.
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There are penalties for being stupid. It's not my rule, it's one of those facts of life that is inescapable. One stupid thing to do is lend people money you should know won't be able to pay it back. There is no way the US can pay China 1.8 trillion dollars, not in today's currency. There is no way people earning $30,000 or $40,000 a year can pay off $200,000, $300,000 or $400,000 30 year mortgages. Not at 9%, not even at 3% Not in today's dollars. And right now those people are in grave jeopardy of losing even those jobs if they haven't lost them and gone into default already. So, there are two alternatives. More money gets printed and freely distributed to pay back those loans in far less valuable dollars than they were loaned out at, or they don't get paid back at all. Anyone have another suggestion? I just saw Face the Nation and Meet the Press. These people in Congress are a joke. The liberals think a $790 billion stimulus package will work while the conservatives are worried it will lead to inflation. Where were they when this mess was invented? I'll tell you where. Democratic Representative Barney Frank who was on Meet the Press today was busy advocating it along with his counterpart in the Democratic Senator Christopher Dodd and Democratic President William Jefferson Clinton. Greenspan, Paulsen, Bernanke, Republican President Bush, and all those horrible Republicans like Dick Armey, Newt Gingrich, Bob Barr, Henry Hyde etc. went along with it too seeing it as a way for their friends in the banking and finance business to make lots of money fast. That's what those high priced economists with their MBAs and PHDs from the finest schools of economics in the world told them to do.
Wars don't get nations out of depressions. It was the massive government spending out of necessity which happened to be mostly in arms production that did it. The inflation came later as it always does. Arms are a terrible investment from the point of view of creating wealth. Investment in machine tools like a lathe or in a factory or building a road or bridge (to somewhere) will generate more wealth when it is used multiplying the value of the initial investment. Arms generate nothing of economic value. It is a one time expense with no return except the ability to defend the nation.
The rule of 72 is simple. How many years will it take to double my investment given a fixed rate percentage of interest if I leave my money in the investment. Divide 72 by that number and that's how many years it will take. If the rate of return is 9% it will take 8 years. If it is 12% it will take 6 years. If it is 20%, it will take slightly over 3 1/2 years. This is a simplification of the equation for compound interest and breaks down at very high rates such as 50%. For that you need to use the real equation which is far more complex. Of course this would have to be the after tax net percentage return. If Bernie Madoff got you 20% return, your net return would depend on your tax bracket since you have to pay federal income tax on your increased wealth every year. This presents an interesting dilemma. Those swindled by Madoff may be able to go back and refile old tax returns and may be entitled to a refund of tax they paid for profits they never actually had. This is a CPA's delight.
Angela Davis was an African American woman who was racially discriminated against as a child and grew up to become a communist, a traitor, and an accomplice to a murder. She should have spent most or all of her entire life in prison. Instead she was became a professor at UCLA, was acquitted in a trial, and continues to spew her anti-American communist and anarchistic hatred although she now calls herself a socialist activist or some other such blather.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis
The USSR made a political cause out of her legal predicament and imprisonment. Russia therefore has no legitimate gripe when the West makes political capital out of imprisonment of its mafia oligarchs who collectively swindled the country out of most of its wealth. Don't people in Russia ever wonder how it was that before the fall of the USSR, everything was owned collectively by the entire population and then in a blink of an eye, most of it was owned by just a handful of people? Some revolutionaries. More like born to be slaves. BTW, the prosperity of Poland compared to the USSR during the cold war was only relative. Compared to the West, living standards behind the iron curtain stank. That's why anyone with any ambition in life fled whenever the opportunity presented itself. When Czechoslovakia finally opened its borders to the west, nearly every productive person in East Germany used it as an escape route.
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129 I hate to be the one to tell you the facts of your own country's history Alice but there were in addition to the Russia Federated Soviet Socialist Republic, 14 SSRs, not 13. They were (from memory)
1.Estonia
2.Latvia
3.Lithuania
4.Belarus
5.Ukraine
6.Moldova
7.Azerbajan
8.Armenia
9.Georgia
10.Turkmenistan
11.Tadjikistan
12.Khazakstan
13.Kirghzgistan
14.Uzbekistan
I also knew all of their capitals (did not know the Oblasts though) and could draw a fairly decent map of them freehand. Not every American is geographically illiterate. BTW, from memory how many American states can you name? How many European countries and their capitals? How many countries in Africa? In South America?
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Jukka (122), it is quite possible that someone demonstrated and could demonstrate that a usable local Latvian train cannot be justified economically, maybe someone did. I would however challenge the paradigm used for this exercise.
Under the paradigm imposed by EU blinders this negative view of territorial development would be an obvious answer and no more questions would be needed. Further, what could be more attractive than a bullet rain to Berlin (though the concept would be equally vague as to what market that would serve).
But this is the paradigm of current colonization by the EU. 'invest in internet and basic science', forget agriculture. 'innovation is the important thing, network with research centers', forget what local people can come up with, that isn't the real thing. 'we will give you the billions for the most expensive train, most expensive train, most expensive library...' but forget about a little maintenance work that could bake existing stock usable and valid as transport.
This mentality has reduced the mental image of Latvia for most people to merely one city Riga. No one thinks how a working railway system would symbolically integrate the country. at 130 km/h the designed speed of what already exists but doesn't work, any point in Latvia is no more than 2 hrs from Riga. But why bother? the ones who matter can afford EU cars and Norwegian petrol. It is not like agriculture or activities in many towns will start to prosper anytime soon, right?
Quite wrong. If Latvians took seriously the challenges presented by the crisis several things will change:
1) They will recognize that the damage of EU agri-subsidies is enormous and deadly for the normal development of the country. They will with reason suspect of the intentions of the EU. Like the Soviet collective farms, such policies are destructive of a core competence and basis of culture and experience building in any society. Try tell the Germans or the Japanese that they will not have agriculture however advanced technologically.
The thing is that not having any other strong production traditions Latvians need agriculture to develop their modern industrial mind-set. They cannot do it in thin air. In response to the present crisis it would not be surprising that the folk boycotted imported products and in civil disobedience cultivated their fields as they please. The financial innovations to support such move would be interesting to see.
2) As the crisis worsen and the 'house of cards' jobs as shopkeepers disappear, petrol and cars become more expensive in relative terms, and less cash is available, people will start to live more in their countryside places. Expect new work-life balance solutions to emerge. After all the technology to work remotely, collaborate and so on is all available.
3) Latvians love the country side and they in many ways don't feel comfortable in Riga. If the people in power truly cared about the territory they should do what they have to do, even if it is not kick-back and commission generating business. Maintenance and infrastructure repair would be cheap stimulus, in line with people's hearts, economically attractive and quick.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (128) and (129):
That's not actually true. Soviet Union after the war tried to trade with the west. For example the first car that my mothers parents owned, they were farmers, in the beginning of 50s was a Moskvitsh which they soon traded to a Volkswagen beetle. Soviet Union also exported Lada's, which in the beginning of 80s were exported in Finland as enjoyed some market success they were inexpensive cars that young people people and low income pensioners could even afford to buy at new. However those cars were more or less horrible, outdated in technology, comfort and performance.
I would recommend you to search youtube with search query of 'Top Gear Communist cars'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskvitch
The fact of the matter is that Soviet Union was in every way horribly inefficient state. Soviet products didn't fair in world markets just because they couldn't produce anything that people would want. You really can't blame standards or trade barriers for the failure of the Soviet Union to trade with the world as those same barriers were for all western makers.
Another fact is that after the USSR collapsed, there was absolutely no other way for countries to prosper and develop without joining the west and letting western companies to build and work in them. For example both Belarus and Ukraine are countries that didn't open enough quickly and create suitable environment for western companies to invest and expand as for that both of these countries have so low GDP per capita (Belarus 4,656USd and Ukraine 3,066USd) they are more comparable to North Africa than even to Eastern Central Europe. Eastern European and ex-Soviet republics had two choices: work by themselves and stay dirt poor or join the west and work with it become prosperous.
The thing is that the only way a country can become developed and prosperous is that it trades with the whole world, with all 192 countries, with all the 6,7 billion people. That way companies can leverage out their production and knowledge and maximize economies of scale.
For example if you have Nokia cellphone, the reason why its so dirt cheap, I got my 6555 clamshell with 45e (sim free) is that Nokia manufacturers over 100 million cellphones in a year. They design a platform, design a handful of phones that all use that same platform, manufacture tens of millions of essentially same product, order same components for 100 million phones and in end everything comes dirt cheap. That is how we can afford all this, leveraging everything into a global scale and getting huge economies of scale.
Now if we look what specifically west and the EU have given its members, including Latvia, is access to the European single market with more than 500 million customers with money to spend and invest. That 500 million and everything in it is the home market where EU companies can grow up enough big to take over the world. The EU also gives added benefit on defending its members and as its the largest economy in the world, all other world countries have to play nice with it or risk face the consequences. For example Bush tried to restrict importing steel to US to which EU responded setting punishing tariffs against producers of swing vote states in a result that Bush repelled tariffs very quickly.
You should also note that in developed countries agriculture is just a small business. From Latvian GDP 4.4% comes from agriculture when in Germany 0.9% comes from agriculture.
The thing is that for Latvia or any other country to prosper and develop, it has to trade with the whole world. It has to do more and more complex products and services that add more and more value with more and more efficiency and lesser and lesser costs. There is no other way to fare well in this world.
Now for all who discuss these issues just look at...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
What you very soon realize by looking that list is that countries that are developed, that have the best infrastructure and companies in the world are at forefront of that list.
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RE 30. At 09:02am on 06 Feb 2009, Jukka_Rohila wrote:
"The Federal Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
But wouldn't it be more sensible to just make it Federal Republic and remove the monarchy? Shouldn't you give human rights to the royals too and set them free. If you love them enough you understand that you have to let them be free."
Hang on, that would be a disaster for UKIP... it's name would become URIP (which doesn't sound very appealing, to them, if you pronounce it in the Southeast England fashion with the accent on the U and an almost silent I :-)
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aye_write @120 wrote
Aha, so you were 'Entropa's' featured author of the month!
Do you not see you have rebutted my argument with insults?
I'm confused by your reference to 'Entropa's featured author of the month. (See Entropa.
I repeat that it was not my intention to insult you. I was attempting to tease. A famous wit once defined a gentleman as one who 'does not insult anyone unintentionally'. If I have insulted you I apologise.
I shall, however, continue to tease. Try, therefore, not to make it so easy.
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It seems to me that the concept that the Baltic or any post-soviet democracy is still at infancy is the best observation in this dialog. How to balance the nationalism that kept them motivated enough to get this far and development is so complex that I am not going to waste your time with speculation. I have observed, however, that for Latvia corruption and distrust are slowing their progress.
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Web Alice (126) you have interesting insights into history. Perhaps you will appreciate a few remarks on socio-economical events to help make sense of it all.
You are probably familiar with Nikolai Kondratiev who in the late 1920's predicted that the great depression was merely part of a long cycle 50-60 years long. This he did based on interest rates and raw material prices. Since then many economists have tried to understand why this happens and many more have attempted to see if this cycle can be broken. For his efforts, at a young age, Nikolai was sent off to Siberia, if I remember correctly, where he passed away.
Seemingly in the Kremlin the news that the system of the west was not dead upset some important people. Please note that I omit to use the word capitalism. It should be obvious but somehow it is far from it, that the system so described in truth has only a vague dependence on capital. The term capitalism is predominant basically because in certain stages of growing a business capital indeed becomes a necessary development factor. And most importantly, because this seemed a necessary antithesis to communism.
But the system is in truth a system of human creativity and freedom. Every single piece of the true fabric of value creation rests squarely on the ingenuity of human higher powers and still higher inspiration. And every piece of individualistic advantage is born from collective work.
Take for instance the computing industry as we know it today. In the late 1970's many extraordinary kids dropped out of school with a clear intuition that what was being taught there was not relevant. They started small clubs all around and tinkered with bits of technology all of which was accessible and available. They played with it and out of it through computer games, and personal computing small gadgets and pieces of software emerged a tremendous industry that changed the world. Apple, Microsoft and hundreds of others had their roots in this movement.
Over time yes they consolidated and eventually captured the lion's share of all profits. And they became the equivalent to what IBM was when they started, monopolists, and probably for similar reasons they will not be the ones who will generate the new movements.
What I am trying to say is that creativity and ingenuity are alive in groups that enjoy certain freedoms and are able to form their own ideas, meet, discuss, tinker, play and dream. They form the dreams of which humanity renews itself and finds meaning in chaos. They bring order to life and thus channel the energies of mankind into constructive ways forward. Depending in what you believe, these people are in harmony with history, embody a religious meaning, or are open to higher inspiration. But whatever it is they are unusual in that they create from nothing.
For most of their early lives these ideas and innovations don't live in the bowels of corporate giants or governments and they don't use the money of banks. All these are poisonous to what is young, inexpert, original and cannot recognize their value often for decades. That is why they are left behind and when these ideas accelerate their growth, they do so often with the profits they themselves generate.
Now why do crisis appear? I mean big ones like the present one. When ideas become old the world goes into a mode or mentality of 'scarcity'. Companies merge because they see consolidation as the main strategy to become bigger. There are fewer and fewer real opportunities to gain advantage and get ahead in the market. In parallel there are fewer top jobs, less heroes jobs, less new discovery jobs, less collective risk to achieve the unthinkable and amalgamate the tribe around this success story. Stories water down until they become mere slogans.
Governments become sterile as they don't quite know what social adaptations they are meant to direct. They forget why they are there. Fewer and fewer positions have any real roles. Most become opportunities to fulfill personal complexes.
Academia initially populated by people who had extraordinary new experiences gradually cedes way to people who are repeating from a book or the experiences of others already fading in the past. They become boring and dull to students with active minds and are incapable of renovating themselves.
Social forms become static: bureaucratic, decadent, with narrow parameters of what is beautiful, correct, good, proper, reasonable, moral and so forth. The effort to fit in becomes more and more unbearable for a growing number of people. Disruptive behavior increases: social unrest, use of medicaments, use of drugs, excess partying, workaholism, strikes, desease, religious and ideological zealotry, bigotry, imagining enemies, blaming others, etc.
In short, when we run out of living principles stemming from human society, when we lose respect for one another, when we lose interest in what others have to say, the world becomes increasingly sterile. It becomes baroque, rococo, characterized by an endless repetition of forms.
There are fewer musical chairs and the the tune gets interrupted ever more often. Razzle-dazzle incentives, easy credit, relaxation of safety nets (because now we are wiser ;-) ), cutting corners are mechanisms of the elite of a system that is becoming sterile.
But you will object and say but there are new companies all the time right? True. But the thing is that despite what the Friedmans and other wise guys say, there are always aspects of the paradigm that are under pressure to change, which are not detectable by an 'economic, make profits' view-point. just like IBM could not perceive Microsoft emerging, society at large cannot easily perceive human forces emerging.
WebAlice, you mention how the recession of the 1930's didn't end until 1949, and how the leaders solved the crisis through war. Unfortunately the reality is still worse. Leaders didn't solve anything at all. They clung to their privileged positions for as long as they could and used every gimmick available, just like they are doing now. War came along as the consequence of exhausting all resources, staggering unemployment and social unrest and a loss of senses that contaminated large masses.
What solved the situation was the destruction of the old leadership and the emergence of a society with new values: one where individuals acquired new meaning, where women became part of the active individuals, where blacks were accepted as humans. A new situation emerged where the monopolists of oil, steel, electricity and trains faded in the background together with remaining aristocrats and landed gentry, and thousands of entrepreneurs flourished from the ruins.
In this new situation new fashions, symbols of beauty and success, of 'cool' multiplied and prospered and the old was seen as decadent. Probably as the interlude you described during the last 4 years on Lenin in Russia, for this movement was not American (as the nation America), but a wind of new times that swept the world.
The situation now is that there are too many 'monopolic' sterile views including in the EU, opportunities are scarce, and participation of people is too low. People are reduced far too often to mere tools or extensions of highly abstract entities who have lost any kind of human meaning. People are expected to fit.
People now have absurd dreams of endless vacationing, luxury, possessions, jet-setting, huge houses and dreams of world domination that are equivalent to a true Midas nightmare. Nothing is alive anymore for the many, nothing fulfills, all is turned to mere solid gold. And those who have a personal life but not the apparent 'success symbols' fall prisoner of the image projected by the ones who seem to have, but really have nothing.
The emperor has no clothes but until everyone stops pretending and is willing to share in the humble pie, the show will go on and end in great misery that could easily be avoided.
The world once more becomes flat and somebody will need to travel to places not discovered to restore its roundness. The world once more became the centre of the Universe, but as Nikolai found out, someone (the many) will find again that there is a greater sun around which we turn.
As someone above mentioned, greed is indeed part of the baggage of humanity as all sins are. But it is most certainly not a virtue. That we brag of our sins instead of privately struggling with them, without relating to our heritage in any culture we come from, is a serious symptom of the severity of our ills.
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#107 SuffolkBoy2
Thank you for confirming that my perception of you was accurate.
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To Jukka_Rohila (135):
Me so stupid.
In 2007 Nokia sold 435 million mobile phones, not just a hundred million phones. The total amount of cell phones sold in the world in 2007 was 1,15 billion.
Note to myself, check more facts before posting :-)
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131. At 4:39pm on 08 Feb 2009, greypolyglot wrote:
" ... British police are always going abroad to help out continental police identify football hooligans. It's called "co-operation". Do you have a problem with it happening in reverse? Perhaps you prefer foreign trouble-makers to get off unidentified and unpunished. ..."
I do not have a problem with the identification bit. There are many things with which I do not have a problem. If continental police are unarmed and there to observe their countrymen then that is fine by me. As soon as they start arresting people then my doubts start because the methods of arresting people on the continent are frequently unacceptable to me, to many Brits and to many British police officers. Clearly they have a right to defend themselves as I have a right to defend myself.
If they come with specialist equipment that is agreed then that is fine by me just as British ground-penetrating radar was used in Belgium. If they use video equipment and film British hooligans so that they can be brought to court in the UK, denied access to the other country or denied access to the other football ground then that is fine by me.
What is not acceptable is that they should be on our streets in their uniforms with guns applying their rules of engagement or going beyond them as Italian Police frequently do.
It is also not acceptable to me that they should be able to knock on the door of anybody in the UK and arrest them.
If they allow British police to arrest people in their countries, then that is their choice. That does not mean that the reverse should be allowed.
Something that might surprise you: I do not mind if Germans join the British police force. There are plenty of Germans who respect and understand our methods.
Re: "Perhaps you prefer foreign trouble-makers to get off unidentified and unpunished. ..."
Not at all.
I am horrified by the behaviour of some young Brits.
You cannot limit the freedom of movement of somebody who has not been tried and found guilty. But for minor offences e.g. shoplifting I think people should not be allowed a passport on top of any other punishment.
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MAfricantus,
I wrote "13 others" meaning that even if Latvia is prejudiced to sell to the Russian market, they've got 13 markets other left.
On maths in numbers below 100 :o) - don't even hope to catch me!
Our property (Russian pre-revolutionary, I mean) - we know by heart.
oi oi oi, devoted a whole post, trying to catch up Alice, on the amount of provinces.
There is a ball room in the Hermitage, which chandeliers are decorated by emblems of all Russian provinces. Times Elizabeth II.
You can always enhance your knowledge about USSR there.
There is also a nice dinner service set, with a table-centre decoration.
The centrepiece is a figurine of Catherine II on the throne, and around her are small cute figurines of bone-china, multi-coloured, in national clothes. Prostrate and stretching hands to the centre, to dear mummy.
You can find the whole USSR there, and learn a lot of ethnic attires. Very nicely done.
I am sure Polish tourists, for example, love it.
As to your amounts it's fifty of which the 50th is the best. The previous 49 I'd simply skip.
Well. Charleston is worthy of attention.
OK, Cincinnati where all say M'am.
Russian Hill in San Fransico granted; plus a certain skating rink in NY that you know I am partial to.
Snowy Chicago for that matter is not bad either. And souvenir store in the Met, with replica-s of the museum collection.
Though come to think about it what I bought there was a David Hockney Umbrella
in a frame; what that has to do with United States.
and then I travelled half of the world emracing this huge frame for the next 3 months. it is here now, on my side, just half a metre away.
Nearby "a rocket volley" masterpiece done on board a Russian airplane carrier with a view of the other. bang! smoke! a lovely watercolour.
:o)
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#132 - MarcusAureliusII
Just for the record, Czechoslovakia allowed the East Germans to make the onward journey to the resorts around Lake Balaton. I was actually Hungary which opened the Iron Curtain and allowed them onward movement to Austria when they dismantled the fortified border.
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131. At 4:39pm on 08 Feb 2009, greypolyglot wrote:
" # 110. SuffolkBoy2:
By the way do you also have a problem with continental footballers, surgeons, doctors, nurses, home-helps, plumbers, etc. operating in the UK? If so you then you might come to understand why some people have called you xenophobic. Sorry, but liking foreigners only when they are in their own countries does not make the term inapplicable."
You have not read all my previous comments otherwise you would know that I have already stated that I welcome the friendly, charming, decent, helpful and competent Portuguese, Africans, Slovaks and Hungarians that I have met in my work in the last four years.
I do not have a problem with German surgeons as my experience with German doctors has been fantastic.
I do have a problem with Italian doctors as I have read reports in the Austrian media of Italians bribing their way through medical school. I have been told by an Italian that you have to bribe your teacher to get good results in their equivalent of A-levels. If these reports are true then an Italian doctor could have bribed his way through starting at school.
I have a problem with Polish truck and bus drivers. One who knows tells me that a certain bus company had tremendous problems with Polish drivers who were supposedly qualified to the extent that they believed that some of them had bought their licences.
I have a problem with reports that we are letting a lot of criminals in. I have a problem with reports that we have Portuguese drugs gangs here in Suffolk.
I have been told by one who should know that because of the "EU" , nationals from "EU"-countries who work here for three months are entitled to unemployment pay. This person further told me that there are agencies in Portugal that arrange for Portuguese people to be employed in the UK for exactly three months so that they can then claim unemployment pay. I presume that some in the Portuguese drugs gangs are on unemployment pay so that in reality because of the "EU" we are actually subsidising criminals.
Re:"If so you then you might come to understand why some people have called you xenophobic."
The word "xenophobic" is a handy piece of mud to throw. It is an attempt to try to terrorise me into silence. It is an excuse for not reading my arguments.
I want us to leave the "EU". I do not want to throw out non-criminal foreigners who are already here. I want us to be like Switzerland was a long time ago. We let many foreigners in for six months at a time.
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Jukka Boxa
Wrong again (as always)
"You should also note that in developed countries agriculture is just a small business. From Latvian GDP 4.4% comes from agriculture when in Germany 0.9% comes from agriculture."
The United States is by far the largest and most efficient producer and exporter of agricultural products in the world. It is America's number one export. Oops, I forgot, you don't consider that America is a developed country.
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#136 lacerniagigante
It could get worse. If the UK doesn't make huge concessions soon, there will be no Britain, as Scotland (perhaps others) will have left.
The remainder will wish to revert to some former dream - Some Unreconstructed Bits of Lesser Imperial Middle England.
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#145 SuffolkBoy2
"I want us to be like Switzerland was a long time ago."
Repressed under the foreign heel - what a great aspiration you have for England!
Perhaps you see yourself as William Tell - so did William S. Burroughs who was arrested in Mexico for attempting to shoot a glass off his wife's head with a .45 pistol during a game in which he imitated William Tell. He missed, shooting her straight through the temple.
A good analogy for your stance.
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And what's this on-going, un-heathy interest in the ex-USSR countries, Mavrenty, anyway?
What importance are for the USA "relations" with Georgia, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia? Pea-nuts and crumbs.
You tease Russia. Just for the hell of it.
For USA - the relations - China and Iran.
For us - Georgia. and Ukraine. (if anyone noticed the recent cold age) and Belorussia -the 2nd tube. Are important.
You tease us where it matters for us, and doesn't matter for you. Frolicking on our ground.
For that matter, weren't you asked out yesterday of Kirgizstan? As they formulated it - "as behaviour of 1,500 soldiers in the base was un-compatible with the local customs." :o)
Uzebkistan - their President said out loud, 2 weeks ago. Nabukko? We shall sell gas to Russia only. All of it. For anyone interested to hear.
Why is so? Don't you have money to buy them? (And surely you will, one other - stan, shortly.)
The answer is the heads of these states, they also strangely have people on the ground. That their government pockets US - or Russian - or anyone else's for that matter - money - does not help the people on the ground to live.
They go and work in Russia. All who can. Thousands and millions.
When USA will let in non-visa muslim Uzbek, Kirgiz and Tajik gasterbeiters; when the EU will - then they will be your "sphere of influence."
And don't forget to teach them English, beforehand.
Russian they know, surprise surprise. Know where to go here, what to do. We are their ex-home, even that you wish to forget it. Have not seen one Uzbek go study in the US yet. In St. Petersburg - in the language they understand - one is welcome.
Until you can do the same for those folks that Russia can - simply relax.
US money will be gladly accepted by the heads of various ex-USSR states. But they also want to stay, live, and rule, and have no revolutions on the ground.
When Putin says "we have old connections, cultuarl and economic with the new countries" - all think he is b-ing. "Aha! pulls our leg! wants to grabatise them again."
Meanwhile there is sense in what he says.
You can export all Latvian youngsters to work in Britain.
How about the 5 USSR muslim states?
tercan ex
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#137 MaxSceptic
"I'm confused by your reference to 'Entropa's featured author of the month. (See Entropa.)"
OK, Max, here is the truth ;-)
I had no idea, nor cared, about your reference ;-)
I decided an idiotic reply, as I was aware mine might be, would indicate an idiotic statemnent to start with.
Plus, if you really were horrible, I reckoned you would pounce on my slip to glaringly illuminate my ignorance, and Scots' ignorance.
Well, you didn't. (I was wrong then.)
Hurray ;-)
"I repeat that it was not my intention to insult you. I was attempting to tease. A famous wit once defined a gentleman as one who 'does not insult anyone unintentionally'. If I have insulted you I apologise."
Aw, don't worry! A gentleman then is surely much better than a bore :-)
You *were* goaded....
I can't be bothered to re-read my original posts, so instead I'll just apologise....
I wanted to know if you really were...well, I've covered that.
"I shall, however, continue to tease. Try, therefore, not to make it so easy."
You will, for it is a 'little boy' you are ;-)
I live with five.
Do you never put out your real opinions?
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to Jukka_Rohila
The EU has brought us only disaster and enslaved us through loans to foreign banks. Now the ordinary Latvians are much more poor compared to what they were during the Soviet era.
By the way, macroeconomic indicators do not necessarily depict the real situation in a country. We had the highest GDP growth rate in the EU. However, it appeared to be just a bubble that burst because GDP growth was driven only by unsustainable increase in consumer debt caused by cheap loans from foreign banks.
If we take Belarus - their economy is actually the healthiest among all the post-sovietic countries, as they did not destroy their industry by letting foreign 'investors' buy their companies in order to close them down as they did in Latvia. Neither did they let foreign banks enslave their people through cheap loans.
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"I do have a problem with Italian doctors as I have read reports in the Austrian media of Italians bribing their way through medical school."
...But of couse it never happens in England...oh the naivety...
"I have been told by an Italian that you have to bribe your teacher to get good results in their equivalent of A-levels."
...again no form of cheating happens in english schools...
"I have a problem with reports that we are letting a lot of criminals in. I have a problem with reports that we have Portuguese drugs gangs here in Suffolk."
...And retired British gangsters in spain? No British criminals operating in europe...oh no.. Im sorry this argument is begging to fall apart at the seams.
I have been told by one who should know that because of the "EU", nationals from "EU"-countries who work here for three months are entitled to unemployment pay. This person further told me that there are agencies in Portugal that arrange for Portuguese people to be employed in the UK for exactly three months so that they can then claim unemployment pay. I presume that some in the Portuguese drugs gangs are on unemployment pay so that in reality because of the "EU" we are actually subsidising criminals."
....not to mention the thousands of British expats called Tarquin who work in the black market in central Italy, paying very little tax for their own little enterprises flouting not a few building or renovation laws and using italian health services
The word "xenophobic" is a handy piece of mud to throw. It is an attempt to try to terrorise me into silence. It is an excuse for not reading my arguments.
No its a handy descriptive term for someone who sees the faults and weaknesses of other nations and looks upon his own land with rose tinted glasses, unable or unwilling to see the faults with his own people and willing to exaggerate those of other nations, believing that his own nation is morally superior as a result.
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"145. SuffolkBoy2:
I want us to be like Switzerland was a long time ago. "
Ah, I see. In which case, read and weep.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7877655.stm
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#145 SuffolkBoy2
You wouldn't like Switzerland now. Next month they join the Schengen area and will remove passport controls at all of their land borders. You'll still have to show your passport if flying from the UK, of course.
The Swiss also had their quarterly referenda on Sunday and have voted to continue to allow EU workers in without work permits, including those from Bulgaria and Romania.
Funny thing, democracy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
laughingLatvian, by Belarus keeping its economy close to the floor, it didn't have far to fall.
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Which form of democracy is better, the one where a leader is given a fixed amount of years to screw up or the one where a screwed up may be replaced at any time?
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@139 Librehacer
Yes, you are right. Lots of talking with MAII :o) ("greed!" "greed!) and here is the result: clean forgot about normal Russian science.
And that there are human aspects of the story and not only "credit crunch" credit crunch. And un-understandable for us, so far, aspects.
Come to think about it - how can money be put ahead in the theory if all depends on humans, and is their hand-making ? ;o)
I've re-checked Kondratiev in the original; strangely wiki in English states 50-60 years; Russian sites also 50-60; but Kondratiev's speech when presenting his theory (he was our St. Pete uni graduate. same law faculty that Putin, Medvedev and who else not. LOL) - says: 48-50.
1st cycle (in his presentation) is 1764-1815 Wave Up, 1812-1848 Wave own.
2nd cycle 1848-1871 Wave Up, 1875-1885/1895 Wave Down.
3rd cycle 1895-1918 Wave Up
1920 - end unclear Wave Down.
Then Stalin shot him up and we didn't get to hear about the next waves.
So all seemingly try to calculate but there isn't a Kondratiev to tell exactly.
51 Up, 36 down
23 Up, 10/20 down
23 Up, 19 down
I don't see any exact numbers at all and to analyse the changes in the environment that point out whether it is "Up" or "Down" clearly we need a Kondratiev. all the rest seem absolutely agree about the past, and disagree about the future, pointing out at diff. parameters.
The parameters he listed in his presentation roughly:
the "Up" is
1. preceded by 10 years of hysterical technical invention activity, or may be - whole 20.
2. During the "Up" wave these inventionas sitting in unknown places are introduced into life and applied.
3. the "Up" is also characterised by hysterical wars and social shake-overs, revolutions etc. masses clearly get nervous and there is something in the air.
4. The very beginning of the "Up" is marked by "widening of the orbit of international connections and cross-connections establishment."
5. Serious changes in precious metals excavation (gold) (smth ought to change about gold if it's a real "Up") and "a serious change in money circulation."
the "Down" ought to have agriculture freeze and depression, must have cheaper price for wheat and all, fall of prices.
Now can anyone tell me what are the wheat prices recently? Jukks? I don't know where we are.
Besides, Kondratiev warned it is based on Germany, France and Britain and to a much lesser degree - on the USA. As undeveloped folks historically to analyse them well back.
O what Kondratiev would tell us now
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I know read Kondratiev again. We are in "Wave Down"!
Found one more characteristic: "Wave Down Cycle 2 - creation by Britain special Parliamentary Commissions to investigate the reasons of agricultural depression and ways to fight it."
LOL
Wave Down Cycle 3"Creation by the USA special Commissions to investigate the...."
(1921 first Commission in the USA; 1924 the 2nd)
Not sure about "Commissions" type "what to do" in the USA, MAII?
but surely a plenty in Europe!
so "commissions" are the 5th symptom ! IMH un-scientific O. :o)
Thus, having improved Kondratiev a little bit... on this encouraging note...:o)
in Wave Down by Kondratiev prices ought to go down on wheat, wool, linen, sugar and tobacco. At that, fall down much higher than for "industrial goods". "Industrial" slide as well; but agricultural (oj what if "agriculture" is oil and gas now as well. kind of, "natural" things) - fall through deeper.
Also Kondratiev happily informs us that the Wave Down ought to have "fall of the land rent in Britain". How does that "land rent" don't know what it is fare?
The beg. of anything good new - don't even hope for, until "before the Up Wave serious amounts of gold are discovered.
From which follows that if we want to have this crisis done over with, the best tactics is to start hysterically quickly to invent smth new "during 2 decades before the beginning of the Wave Up" - and all who can't - ought to take spades - and go look for gold!
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SuffolkBoy2-
Have you ever noticed a certain tendency amongst the Continental European to glory in degrees, instead of thinking of the degree as a starting point for future achievment?
I do not think they have much respect for the individual entrepenuer who has a vision and risks all to achieve something rewarding or the gentleman farmer who experiments on his own and through diligance and personal investment improves the lot of the entire community.
For some reason this individualism is only valued in the United Kingdom and her former colonies. I think the most tragic thing that ever happened to Great Britain was the attempted centralization of everthing after the Second World War. It seems that the Continental Socialist model did a good job of chasing away that native talent and entrepenurial daring that so marked Britain. I don't think that William Shakespear would be very sucessful in modern Britain, to politaically incorrect, additionally as a small businessman what is he giving to the community other than stories, jobs, entertainment and a certain false individualism that allows each person to think that they have a right to evaluate and comment on the historical options and social conditions displayed.
How shocking that Shakespear never gave 10% of what he earned to the commnities socialist projects!!!!!
Maybe England should be rightly blamed for putting out these Middle class heroes like Shakespear or Lord Nelson (son of a simple Parson/Pastor).
The natural development of this is people doing whatever they want and not one great governmental plan that we can argue is better than the other govermental plan , but instead a million different plans, most of which will fail, but some of which will succeed and thus become the model for all of our success.
Are we wrong in thinking that success is individual and that authritarianism is not the future? It seems to me that the loose government of the 1700s in Britain did more for the advancement of the world than all the 5 year pans of Continental Europe put together.
Off course I would think that way, because as an American my current success is based on Britain's past Imperial asperations and the benefits of her colinisation as are Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
None of us had the benefit of a five year plan, a socialist bureaucracy, or continental philosophy to enlighten us like Angloa, Syria, Kyurgistan or any of the other paradises of this world. All we had was a tendency to admire success and see the "Big man " for what he really is.
Maybe what Latvia should do is pattern herself after the free wheeling Capitalism and entrepenurial spirit of Britain in the 1600s, 1700s through 1800s. I believe you will find that is the system in Japan, South Korea, the US, the profitable part of Germany, etc.
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153 Greypolyglot
Apparently Mother's on the continent don't scold their children with the saying "so if all of your friends jumped off a bridge, would you too".
The retrograde to socialism has made even the illogic of an a Bureaucratic/Fascistic EU Dictatorship seem like progress.
Amazing what you can get people to swallow when you feed them all the same tripe.
If Latvia is to succeed it will be because of trade with the outside world not access to European markets that produce the same items, duh.
--------------------------------------------------------
Web Alice, one of the reasons the whole USSR trading system didn't work is they all made the same junk. If everybody builds AK-47s they essentually compete against themselves and prices spiral.
It will turn out the same with the EU standerdization, standback watch it wreck Germany's trade. The effect will be no new markets gained in Europe, because they already have them and a big loss of markets outside of the new closed trade block called the EU.
Today I have to return a knife to Bass Pro shop. The knife is clearly marked "Hen & Rooster, "World's Finest" since 1845, German Stainless" same on one side of blade on other side of blade it says SPAIN. Anybody who thinks they are going to sell Spanish goods at German prices won't be selling many knives in the US. EU or no EU.
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We call the kind of people you are talking about "chartists." I've seen countless ones on TV financial networks each with his or her own theory and tons of data analyzed by computers to back it up. Sometimes their theories seem to work for awhile. That's when everyone jumps in. That's about the time the whole theory comes crashing down. So far no chart theory has ever proven reliable in predicting what markets will do or when. Some of the "supercycles" supposedly last for decades, even centuries. Some cycles for days, hours, or just minutes.
You can get any opinion you want on any stock from chartists. A stock is going up. Chartists who like it tell you to buy because it has momentum. Those who don't tell you to sell because it is overpriced. A stock goes down. Those who like it tell you it's a buying opportunity. Those who don't call it a broken stock and warn you to stay away from it. A stock remains flat. Those who like it say it's building a base. Those who don't tell you it's a dead stock that is going nowhere.
Several years ago, two American economists won the Nobel Prize in economics for their market theories. They started a hedge fund only for the super rich based on those theories. For a while their ideas worked. Then it fell apart and they lost every cent invested with them. I don't need to pay professional investment adivsors to tell me what losing stocks to buy, I can pick them out myself for free. Stalin was right. Shooting the man was the right thing to do. Too bad more chartists don't wind up that way.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
WebAlice #159 - I am sorry I introduced Nikolai so abruptly to the conversation. I notice that you take take cycles and commodities literally.
MarcusAurelius 162 makes a similarly related mistake grouping chartists with socio-historic-economic analysis.
Large cycles are not clocks. They offer a regularity. Greenspan so far has demonstrated that provided the debt market can be expanded infinitely, cycles can be extended. He believed they could be broken but at the same time was aware of the augmented crisis if he was wrong.
The fact that NK saw shorter cycles is largely related to the underdevelopment of debt markets if you ask me. And debt markets are a good thing in themselves. The problem arises when debt is applied to things inert because humanity, or those in power perhaps, cease to be able to allow currents of social renovation.
The result is that less and less GDP growth is generated from every investment. It happened in USSR for it stifled human creativity to a great degree; it happens in the west when overbearing companies get their way; it happens everywhere, all the time.
That is why cycles, or waves as now they are called precisely to reflect that they do not imply precise duration. (Google term is k-wave)
Long waves thus are not particularly related to stock prices. These are affected by debt, fiscal stimulus including tax breaks, deficit public sending, war spending, monetary policy and inflation. A stimulus neutral picture of share prices would show quite a different story.
The particular commodity prices that matter are also incidental. In today's world it is quite likely in my view that the key commodity which price has fallen through the bottom is 'wages'. Think of it: land rental prices mattered when agri-business was a much larger percentage of GDP. Food prices when the percentage of household food expenditure was 60% or more. Interest rates mattered more because capital was less abundant.
Today the percent of GDP that is highest is services and adding 2 billion people to the work force through WTO, effectively has reduced wages world wide.
One doesn't need charts to understand the problem, one needs primarily reflection and to combine information from various fields that typically stay in different disciplines. One could suppose that specialization, that comes with the maturity of the long wave of change results in this fragmented world-view that obscures the bigger picture.
I would like to insist that the way out is not a mechanical action of any sort; it has not been ever as far as we can tell (k-waves have been mapped to the early 1300's by now.)
Creativity and judgment are human qualities out of which everything new emerges. The answers that every new wave brings in every case were unfathomable for the generation that led into the crises. Think of history!
It is disregard for the people aspect, and greed and hubris lead to this, that ideas become old and sterile. When a cohort of 'know-alls' dominates the world with a single truth for a long time,a new synthesis is due.
In Hegelian terms the thesis I would say was capitalism, the antithesis communism, and it is now very likely that we are working ourselves to the new synthesis. The ships to prove the world is round are ready to sail for those brave enough to risk being burned on the stake - in this regard not much has changed, has it?
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# 160. At 02:48am on 09 Feb 2009, politejomsviking wrote:
"SuffolkBoy2-
Have you ever noticed a certain tendency amongst the Continental European to glory in degrees, instead of thinking of the degree as a starting point for future achievment?"
I think that there is a certain amount of that everywhere but that it is worse amongst the continentals. I do think that there are too many people doing degrees and that there is an awful lot of pseudo-education going on.
"I do not think they have much respect for the individual entrepenuer who has a vision and risks all to achieve something rewarding or the gentleman farmer who experiments on his own and through diligance and personal investment improves the lot of the entire community."
There is a certain amount of that in the UK too. I am not sure how much of that there is on the continent.
"For some reason this individualism is only valued in the United Kingdom and her former colonies. I think the most tragic thing that ever happened to Great Britain was the attempted centralization of everthing after the Second World War. It seems that the Continental Socialist model did a good job of chasing away that native talent and entrepenurial daring that so marked Britain. "
I don't know about that . In Germany, I did find, to my surprise that the word "Individualist" was used as an insult. It was wrong to be different.
"I don't think that William Shakespear would be very sucessful in modern Britain, to politaically incorrect, additionally as a small businessman what is he giving to the community other than stories, jobs, entertainment and a certain false individualism that allows each person to think that they have a right to evaluate and comment on the historical options and social conditions displayed.
How shocking that Shakespear never gave 10% of what he earned to the commnities socialist projects!!!!!"
I don't know enough about Shakespeare to comment too much on that. He certainly was a business man and not just an "artist". As I understand it, initially he was a staunch Catholic and trying to provoke a Catholic uprising. I presume he gave some of his money to that.
"Maybe England should be rightly blamed for putting out these Middle class heroes like Shakespear or Lord Nelson (son of a simple Parson/Pastor)." I don't know enough about that.
"The natural development of this is people doing whatever they want and not one great governmental plan that we can argue is better than the other govermental plan , but instead a million different plans, most of which will fail, but some of which will succeed and thus become the model for all of our success."
I think that sometimes a big plan can be good and sometimes not. e.g. When I was in Paris some time ago, I thought they had done a very good job in keeping the skyscrapers out of the central bit and not allowing them to dwarf the historical buildings. On the other hand we have had some lousy plans in the UK, especially in schools where the plan has prevented good teachers from teaching a way that has been shown to work and forced a scheme on them that was later shown to be rubbish. The trouble seems to be that the governance behind he plan is rubbish. And behind hat is a ludicrous voting system allowing some Grade A noodles to get into power.
"Are we wrong in thinking that success is individual and that authritarianism is not the future? It seems to me that the loose government of the 1700s in Britain did more for the advancement of the world than all the 5 year pans of Continental Europe put together." I don't know enough history to make a confident comment on that.
"Off course I would think that way, because as an American my current success is based on Britain's past Imperial asperations and the benefits of her colinisation as are Canada, Australia and New Zealand."
British colonisation was not perfect, but it wasn't all bad either.
"None of us had the benefit of a five year plan, a socialist bureaucracy, or continental philosophy to enlighten us like Angloa, Syria, Kyurgistan or any of the other paradises of this world. All we had was a tendency to admire success and see the "Big man " for what he really is.
Maybe what Latvia should do is pattern herself after the free wheeling Capitalism and entrepenurial spirit of Britain in the 1600s, 1700s through 1800s. I believe you will find that is the system in Japan, South Korea, the US, the profitable part of Germany, etc."
Not sure.
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Switzerland.
I think that Switzerland is making a big mistake in opening its border and signing up for Schengen.
I believe that these open borders benefit the criminal more than the rest.
There is a female serial-killer moving about between Germany, Austria and France. I have never heard of her being active in Switzerland. Maybe it is because of the tighter borders.
Switzerland cannot take in all the people who would like to live there. It just isn't practical.
The "EU" does not take in all the people who would like to live here.
Apparently when it is applied to the "EU" that is OK.
When I want to apply it to the UK then it is "xenophobia." "EU"-lovers try to use the word to silence opponents of their Greater European Reich.
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Schengen isn't just about borders. Its also about legal cooperation, especially information about criminals. I believe the UK even wants access to the data but the Schengen members are reluctant to give it to the UK. For obvious reasons.
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#166 - SuffolkBoy2
Given the Swiss system, there will have been a referendum on Schengen. If you think they are making a mistake, it is a collective and democratic one. Sharp contrast with blighty where they don't even ask the questions, would you not say?
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Apparently in this thread one can call someone stupid and not get censored whereas neologisms are promptly "moderated".
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To SuffolkBoy2 (166):
You say that EU has double standards? Of course it has, but wait a minute, it will just start to be getting better!
You see having double standards and using unilateral actions is just what super powers do and as EU becomes more and more powerful we will become like the Americans...
Lets see...
Our mercenaries can kidnap people from foreign countries and bring them here to be judged.
Our foreign intelligence service assassinate our own dissidents and pestering people in other countries.
Our foreign intelligence service can organize coups and set up puppet governments.
Our army can invade and occupy foreign oil producers.
SuffolkBoy2 please, you have to get UK out of the EU. How on earth can we otherwise start take over the world and suppressing it to our will if we can't practice first in our home continent. So please please please take UK out of EU, you are so suitable country otherwise, produce oil and gas, have strained ethnic divisions, think about Scottish insurgency! How cool would that be!?
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To SuffolkBoy2 (166):
Of course I forgot to add that we continentals aren't barbaric. We don't torture people... at least not all of them... just evildoers... just Tony Blair and Gordon Brown... but even then it would be intelligent torture... we would force Tony Blair just to eat haggis and Gordon Brown watching it and not giving any to him. That would teach them both!
PS. SuffolkBoy2 do you need a tan? I have heard that the EU is opening an permanent tourist resort in French Guyana? I think you are a kind of person who would need some permanent holiday all expenses paid. Isn't the EU great, free holidays for you too :-D
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To MarcusAureliusII (162):
Their theory actually was correct and their model worked. What didn't work was their ability to stay afloat in a market turmoil. Yes, they were rescued by banks, but surprise surprise the banks made a quite a nice profit when they liquidated those funds and monetary instruments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management
To MarcusAureliusII (146):
Agriculture makes up 0.9% of US GDP that is exactly the same as the figure for Germany. The fact of the matter is that agriculture is small business in overall things.
US of course is not developed country, but uber-developed country. For example there is nothing particularly wrong in current American lifestyle, the big problem is that you nor the rest of the planet can't afford decentralized infrastructure, in another words suburbans as long as I can see and traveling to everywhere with a car. That is a nice life style, but not sustainable at least right now, maybe will it become sustainable again with the development of technology.
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#168 threnodio
"Given the Swiss system, there will have been a referendum on Schengen."
There was, in the quartely referenda of June 2005. It even got reported on this site's Swiss vote to ease border control.
Implementation was originally planned for the end of 2007 but got delayed a little by concerns over Bulgarian and Romanian entry and negotiations within the EEA.
As you say, if it's a mistake at least it's one made consciously and democratically by the Swiss people. How unlike the system in dear old Blighty.
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#170 Suffolk boy and Jukka-
This post is a good example of why Britain needs to stick with it's current allies.
Look at how thoroughly he has bought into this foreign dribble.
Would her Majesty's government ever deploy the Scotts Guards or the Coldstream Guards to defend such continental nonsence. When you merge two countries you adopt their defence commitments. Are Frances enemies your enemies? What about apparently Finlands?? Can you imagine the Royal Navy deploying to the North atlantic to try and hunt down America's Super Carrier task Forces, because the Frogs are upset.
Jukka if you engage your brain before you start writing you'll make your point a whole lot better.
What Britain would feel their place in the line was with these people and not with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
By the way Jukka I know cheap cell phones are interesting, but your business model is all wrong, you'll eventually get beaten by the Chinese. Personally I carry an Apple I-phone. Cheap they can do quality and inovation they can only mimic.
Can you imagine a world where the Scott's Guards would inore a call to arms from the Queen to answer a treaty obligation to a French diplomat?
I don't see this happening?
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If the author's point is that the economy in Latvia has taken a downturn, that many people blame the government and that the government is now vulnerable to collapse, there should be better quotes, data or evidence than just commenting on what it looks like out in front of the Parliament building and strangely quoting one member of the opposition party and then listing a bunch of random data like this. I think this is poor journalism and I think the BBC should expect more from someone whom they are paying to cover this story.
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Last news: Switzerland is joining Schengen; Iceland, the EU and the Euro; Croatia cannot wait to be finally part of the EU; Ukraine and Georgia would die to simply become EU candidates; Montenegro and Kosovo unofficially use the European currency; Danemark and Sweden are seriously thinking to adopt the Euro, Sterling has lost 30 per cent its value in the last year and it is in technical parity with the Euro...
Too much to swallow for the most irredent eurosceptics!
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Ah, I forgot: the most successful economies from the last enlargements: Slovenia and Slovakia, Cyprus and Malta, are already part of the Eurozone.
Also Serbia is decided to follow a European path, alongside with the rest of the Western Balkans...
Whos' left?
As I said, bad times for the enemies of an ever closer Union.
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Politejomsviking, a short message no time now. Your advice is sound; the "get rid of small debts first" I liked in your earlier post to Latvians, and the "entrepreneural spirit."
Pirates especially! LOL. I had the same feeling when first went to the UK; expected to see all glorious pirates and they all proved to be lawyers and financiers.
Couldn't for the life of me meet one pirate absolutely all were lawyers, to my great disappointment.
_____
Speaking of pirates; the Ukr. ship carrying Russian tanks made in 1980 LOL, that was grabatised by Somali pirates in Aug (Faina) is released (3.2 tax to the pirates paid).
Is en route to deliver tanks to whenever it is, accompanied by the US ship. All are interested where the tanks will end up, where Ukraine said they were intended or in Sudan.
But this is nevermind, what is particular, is the liberated sailors got the news, the first hello from the Ukrainian ship owner from Odessa (hold tight):
"From the salary of each sailor on return home I will minus $200 for telephone calls home asking for help."
If EU wants Ukraine in EU - have it.
Congratulations to the Latvian friends by the way, the remaining alive crew has one Latvian. So he will be home shortly.
17 Ukrainians, 2 Russians, 1 Latvian.
Was a very economic crew for such a huge ship IMHO.
There was Russian captain but he died on the 3rd day in captivity from heart break when his ship was grabatised. High blood pressure, a stroke and heart failure.
His body they carry home.
The captain is now the remaining Russian.
They were kept in 1 room for half a year, 20 people, at times starved without food and water, to expediate ransom payment.
President Youshenko was petitioned by relatives on the knees who spent last half a year besieging his office. Only they never had a chance to talk to him, security pushed them off and letters went un-unswered.
Simultaneously we also got Russian naby ship home yest from the place who completed his shift, now another one does in those waters, the "Un-scare-able" one.
The "Un-scare-able" escorted 60 ships and 15 ship caravans but they say it is a drop in the bucket given the amount of traffic by Somali shore.
Anyway saw how they all got a roasted piglet on the pier, Russian Navy tradition how to meet a ship returning from the expedition, flowers, children and relatives all that jazz. Touching scene on the pier.
Ukraine expects their sailors liberated by airpane in 3 days, and Latvi its own too I think.
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PS to my #173
A Swiss friend seems to recall that the Schengen delay was mainly due to a requirement by the Schengen countries to place proper border controls in place with Liechtenstein, who previously only had a controlled cross-border route near Feldkirch in Austria. Switzerland naturally wanted to obviate expenditure on new border controls, since cost-cutting was an important element in the decision to join.
Liechtenstein hope to join Schengen soon, but are not quite compliant with all the rules yet. That's one-up to the Eurocrats, I suppose, as Liechtenstein has no coastline, no airport and land borders only with Schengen states!
The Swiss allow FC Vaduz to play in the Axpo Super League, put Liechtensteiner 'phone numbers in Swiss Telephone directories and charge snail mail to Liechtenstein at local rates instead of European one.
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160. politejomsviking:
"Have you ever noticed a certain tendency amongst the Continental European to glory in degrees, instead of thinking of the degree as a starting point for future achievment?
I do not think they have much respect for the individual entrepenuer who has a vision and risks all to achieve something rewarding ... "
Perhaps you, like Dubya, are unaware that the word "entrepreneur" is in fact French. So they do know the concept. In fact we had to take their word into the English language in order to express a concept that we otherwise had to describe with a sentence.
"174. politejomsviking:
Would her Majesty's government ever deploy the Scots Guards or the Coldstream Guards to defend such continental nonsense? "
At the risk of being castigated for bringing up WWI and WWII again may I remind you that we put our military into both in application of our Treaty commitments - unlike the US which only joined in when our common enemy made it impossible for you to remain on the sidelines.
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To politejomsviking (174):
The main point is that if Britain allies itself with the US, it will pay by being unequal partner and submitting it to the will of US power. The reason why Brits render their citizens to US is to avoid public outrage on CIA or other US agencies kidnapping people to US.
That is not however what SuffolkBoy2 or eurosceptics are afraid or complain about. They only concentrate on how the EU is the source of all evil while blinding their eyes on what is going right affront of their eyes.
The other point is that when the EU becomes more and more powerful it will use more and more of its forces to protect its interests. If Britain is out of the EU then the interests of Britain aren't necessarily interests of the EU. If Britain however is in the EU, its an equal partner whose interests are shared by the whole Union.
Now you wonder why would UK act together with continental countries. The reason is simple, mutual regional and economic interests. For example the main reason why both France and Germany were against Iraq war was because the point of whole war was just to stop Iraq trading oil with Euro. They were also against the war as they knew it would brake the regional balance and create instability in the middle-east. For US it doesn't matter so much that there is added instability in middle-east, but for Europe it does matter as that is right next to us. So in essence there were both economical and regional interests to object against US invasion to Iraq. The tragedy of Britain is that they have abandoned making politics based on economical and regional rationalities.
The other tragedy of course is that many Americans are still under the illusion that US is all powerful. For example general David Petraeus spiked in his speech in Munich eurozone countries. He very well should know that there is no love for US operation trade oil only with USd. With that kind of arrogance and insensitivity there is no hope for Europe committing more troop to Afghanistan. That kind of comment only makes one hope that general Petraeus someday gets an IED with his name engraved to it.
Also maybe you should get some knowledge before commenting.
For example do you know which is the biggest mobile phone manufacturer in China? Which firm has the biggest mobile phone plant in the world? You guessed it right, that is Nokia. Global firms leverage global resources to their benefit. Nokia has always been about mass manufacturing and less about innovation. They don't innovate, they just copy and use their economies of scale to beat their competitors.
Apple's iPhone has been a success only the states as you haven't had any better alternatives. Even then its only a niche product riding a touch screen fad. Apple is a design house, they don't manufacture anything, they just subcontract. As long as people are willing to pay for design Apple will do fine, but the day people aren't anymore willing to pay for design that is the day they will hit a brick wall again. As a design house Apple has relied fully on brilliance of Steven Jobs, without him there is no Apple.
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Off topic I'm afraid but this is not being reported anywhere on the BBC.
href=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1bdeccd6-f637-11dd-a9ed-0000779fd2ac,dwp_uuid=70662e7c-3027-11da-ba9f-00000e2511c8.html
England shafted again.
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#174 - politejomsviking
Talking about engaging brain, could you just clarify for us where you are coming from? It seems that one moment you are eulogising about all things German and citing Bach and Beethoven as explars (notwithstanding that Beethoven died in 1827 fully 62 years before Germany existed). The next you are telling the Brits they should have nothing to do with those pesky Europeans and that their only real friends are Australia, New Zealand and the States. All of this from a southern Texas perspective.
I am curious because the CIA appear to be threatening to withhold intelligence if the Brits don't stifle their judiciary. If this is an example of American intelligence, I rather think we would be better off without it.
(I am sure Jukka will post the details but Nokia mass produce their cheaper phones in Asia and manufacture high end product in Europe. Sounds like a business model to me).
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167. At 08:08am on 09 Feb 2009, Gheryando wrote:
"Schengen isn't just about borders. Its also about legal cooperation, especially information about criminals. I believe the UK even wants access to the data but the Schengen members are reluctant to give it to the UK. For obvious reasons."
1) Please tell me what these obvious reasons are. I am unaware of them.
2) How much did you get paid for this post.
3) Please answer my question of some time ago how I also can get the "EU" to pay me to post here and where and to whom do I have to apply.
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168. At 08:11am on 09 Feb 2009, threnodio wrote:
"#166 - SuffolkBoy2
Given the Swiss system, there will have been a referendum on Schengen. If you think they are making a mistake, it is a collective and democratic one. Sharp contrast with blighty where they don't even ask the questions, would you not say?"
I agree with you entirely on this occassion. It is a point I have made repeatedly in the past.
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182. At 1:19pm on 09 Feb 2009, englandrise wrote:
"Off topic I'm afraid ..."
Good for you for being off topic. We do not need the "Ditatorship of the Topic Headline" any more than we need the dictatorship of the "EU" or the "Dictatorship of the Definition" or the dictatorship of a British version of the German Duden.
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Jukki, no doubt your Nokia is great. I count to sell one at some point to an antique shop, make 1997 I posess of. It answers most Russian parameters of what a product should look like - I dropped it in snow piles, forgot it under rain in the garden bench, you can knock nuts with it (a Nutcracker model), if bandits attack you I think one can safely use it as a weapon.
In other words it agrees with the main Soviet concept - namely that any product made in the USSR ought to resemble T-34 (tank).
In durability, robustness, outlook and no fooling around with perks and extra-s.
Soviet best cars, fridges, winter coats and kitchen pans - are all calling the image of T-34.
MAII stop pulling everyone's leg that Soviet-made stuff was crap.
Those few items USSR allowed its population to have, on the budget left over from spending 80% of it on armament to fight USA, and means to subdue internal resistance, were extraordinary ugly but very durable.
It's foreign idea to sell breaking things to sell more.
A Soviet person was getting one fridge and one car and 1 coat and 1 pair of pants - for life! (fridge and car, having stood in line for 6-15 years). And those ones were meant to last!
It's a joke Government needs money to build subs and rockets and those nagging citizens want idiotic pans frying pans and fridges! Not understanding what is the main thing for the country!
So USSR made as little consumer goods as possible, and once you got your frying pan - be happy and don't ask the shops for another within the next 20 years!
You will never be able to tear the pockets off a Soviet-made winter coat. You can load rocks and lead into it. It is meant to last your life and you children's life. Well-worked wool. No synthetics' crap. Solid fur collar.
Same with fridges. They roar, and jump the floor at nights on a leash (cord) as far as it allows. All our dacha-s are still equipped with them. No silly temperature control. Minus 20! That's it. When I put a bottle of milk into the Soviet fridge in the dacha (make 1965) - it turns into a piece of ice!
Foreign pans are a joke. With a Russian frying pan you can kill dacha robbers. One hit - bang. Cast-iron. Black. No stupid "anti-burning surfaces."
Pans are heavy, steel. Aviation steel.
Same buckets and milk churns.
You will never be able to make a hole in a Soviet bucket. It is meant to "boil" bed-linen, on a stove, for generations.
No stupid wash machines were planned for Russians. You put your bed linen into a bucket, chop "housekeeping soap" into it, add cold water and put onto the stove top. Cover with lid and boil!
Then rinse.
Good housewife when they get nostalgic still do this. No dis-wash powder will make bed-linen same white and sterile as by boiling in a bucket.
And then you hop it on a line in the frost - and it gets fresh and dry, frost dries out things in a sec!
That's the feel. Not dish-wash powder. Ugh. Cheap version for un-spoiled people.
Have to note you have to have linen and good cotton bed-sheets. No synthetic crap.
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To SuffolkBoy2 (184):
1) Open borders doesn't mean uncontrolled borders. Reason for not giving full access for SIS is simple: if you want it all, you have to participate fully.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Information_System
2) Nothing. Jose said that I have to increase my pro-EU commenting to qualify for their Joseph Goebbels advertising campaign.
3) You write a polite letter and make an offer...
For example...
"Dear sir. It has come to my knowledge that your organization has problems with popular image. May I offer help to address your problem and together work a solution to increase your popularity and shine up the public image.
I offer blog posting services. Here is a list of my fees..."
Then send it to this address...
José Manuel Barroso
President of the European commission
1049 Brussels, Belgium
Jose usually phones in a few days notice. I have to warn you that he has excellent bargaining skills, but just hold tight with him and offer some symbolical lowering of your fees.
You can also order my newest books from Amazon. Just search for these titles...
"Getting rich by EU money for dummies" and
"The complete idiots guide on getting EU money" and
"Story of EU money millionaire! If I can do it, you can too!"
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#179 - Brownedov
". . . due to a requirement by the Schengen countries to place proper border controls in place with Liechtenstein"
The same was the case with Hungary, Slovakia and Slovenia, all of which had land borders with non Schengen countries. Border controls had to be tightened in the case of Hungary with Croatia, Serbia, Romania and Ukraine. I seem to remember that there was some consternation about the Slovene Croatian border because nobody knew where it was. Since Slovenia had been due to take on the presidency of the EU only two or three weeks after their borders were opened, the matter of the closed borders had to be resolved at great speed.
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#184 - SuffolkBoy2
"Schengen . . . Please tell me what these obvious reasons are. I am unaware of them".
The Schengen countries have a shared database of about 17 million people known to the authorities and known as SIS. SISII is under preparation. The British authorities have access to this for investigative purposes but not Article 96 data for policing borders. They have requested full access but the Schengen Group argues that the whole purpose of Article 96 data is make proper security possible with open borders. So the issue is what the British want this data for if they are not going to open their borders.
The Schengen countries are not being difficult about this in my view. They argue, very properly, that the whole point of the Article 96 data is to give people freedom of movement, not to provide a further source of information to countries which have no intention of using it for the purpose for which it was created.
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To WebAliceinwonderland(187):
Actually I'm quite familiar with Russian made military equipment. Most of the Finnish field army equipment is from Russia or it follows the same design philosophy of impossible to break, works in any condition.
In army we used BRT-50 vehicles as a platform to transport and set up communications point. The machine and especially its motor where from hell, eat would it almost everything that was given to it and its added specialty was that it could spin in both directions, if my memory serves me right. However servicing it, especially tightening its carriages were no fun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTR-50
In army we also used RK 62 automatic rifle which was based on Kalashnikov AK-47. The difference was that our rifles were accurate to 150 meters while AK-47 was accurate only to approx. 50 meters. That is why in all American movies were baddies are shooting with AK-47's they can't hit anything. The added benefit of RK 62 is that it can use the same ammunition as AK-47 which is very useful if you happen to meet people who don't anymore have any use of their ammunition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RK_62
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RK_95_TP
All in all there was nothing particularly wrong in Soviet engineering ability or production quality. The Soviet system just made sure that everything was in the end made ineffectively.
For example, if my memory serves me right, the Finnish army ordered artillery from USSR. With the ordered artillery they also provided UAZ cars all-terrain vehicles with them. The only problem with the cars were that they didn't have fuel caps, you couldn't fill more petrol to them. They designed to be used in attack against west and to be forsaken when the fuel ended up. The Finnish army then retrofitted them and installed fuel caps so that they could used more than once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAZ
Like I said before, the Soviet engineering ability and production quality weren't the problems. The problem was the whole Soviet economic system that more or less self sabotaged itself. Like for example Ukrainian tractor factor whose efficiency was measured by the amount of used steel which lead them add more steel to tractors with an effect of having them to sink in fields.
PS. Frying bans, I have my mothers old cast iron frying pan and have wanted to get a new one, do they still sell new cast iron frying pans in St. Petersburg?
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Further to my post @91, Margot Wallstrom's office have denied that they have paid (or subsidised) anyone to post comments on blogs about the EU or elsewhere.
I believe them. I dislike and oppose the EU as an institution, but most people who work for the Commission are not underhand, venal, or stupid. (A pity I can't say the same for our magnificent Labour Party and Derek Drapers 'rapid rebuttal unit'....)
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#189 threnodio
"The same was the case with Hungary, Slovakia and Slovenia"
Point taken, but the difference is that they're all "edge" states, bordering on non-Schengen states with airports and coastlines outwith Schengen.
Liechtenstein will be a little different in being surrounded by two Schengen states and until teleporting is realistic no other means of travelling to the outside world.
Their single border control point with Austria won't change, but they have had free movement into Switzerland subject to the occasional spot-check for about a century - even during WW2 I believe.
In practice, I don't think anyone thought much about it until after the referendum.
You've now prompted me to wonder what's the situation with the Holy See and San Marino. I haven't been to either since Italy joined Schengen yet they're not listed on http://www.schengenspace.com/. Would anyone know?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Re no. 182 Englandrise:
I agree, the article in the FT you mention about the government's refusal to claim £671m in EU funds should be more widely publicised.
According to one source, the government doesn't want the money as it will make the Treasury's budget position even worse than it is. See http://www.jonworth.eu/beith-about-the-budget-its-the-flood-aid-scenario-revisited/
Perhaps a subject which you might consider Mark? The EU is often seen as giving the UK a raw deal, how about looking into the reality of the situation?
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I have just scanned this blog and I compute the paranoia index is extremely high mainly due to a couple of anti-Europeans who are insensitive to reason. They cannot comprehend that others do not see the World from their particular point of view. This is a pity as there is much to constructively talk about in Europe.
They do not seem to comprehend that putting forward the same arguments in the same way to a group of people who have rejected their whole logical position will not further their cause.
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#193 - Brownedov
You will find the information regarding San Marino HERE and the Holy See HERE
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#196 threnodio
OK. Thanks. So it seems they're both effectively in Schengen, which is only logical but makes it all the more odd that the Schengen website doesn't list them.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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182. englandrise:
So, the UK government declined an offer from Brussels to extend a deadline in order to help the UK spend £671m ($996m) in EU funds to help combat recession in England.
Thank you for the pointer to that gem which I would otherwise have missed.
I can't wait to see SB2's reaction.
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#197 - Brownedov
In the case of San Marino, I think it is to do with the fact that the Italian government represents their foreign policy interests but the Holy See handles all their own so I could not begin to work that one out.
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Jukki re the cast-iron frying pans - yes still happen in nature. in dark corners of cheap tiny shops residing in cellars of apartment houses down-town. would be something like a house-keeping goods store, of wall-paper, portland cement bags, nails size 10 cm, saws, drills, various wires, like dacha goods, and then hop - in the corner - a pile of cheap cast-iron frying pans. disappear from the shelf within an hour.
Looked up in the net, Dnepropetrovsk still makes them (Russian side of Ukraine), Moscow suburb, Slutsk (Belorussia). The nearest shop that has them in - Sebastopol.
So, you know, when we get too cornered with kitchen equipment - no choice. Will have to take Sebastopol.
Most shops sell Le Creuset French enamelled by 2 layers, by colour for fun, and simply so against rust. Also Woll's.
Both expensive like hell.
We keep an eye for ours. Besides, ours are "raven-ed", ? blackened? when crystallic sand is heated in them in production, so that grains of sand clip together grains of cast-iron forming a thin anti-burning layer 1mm only but forever kind of. If it's a real raven frying pan.
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#199 threnodio
Presumably the San Marino case is similar to the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands as Crown Dependencies. If the UK moves into the 21st century and adopts Schengen, they would do so too (without any need to formally do so through their own legislatures).
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198. At 10:52pm on 09 Feb 2009, greypolyglot wrote:
"182. englandrise:
So, the UK government declined an offer from Brussels to extend a deadline in order to help the UK spend ?671m ($996m) in EU funds to help combat recession in England.
Thank you for the pointer to that gem which I would otherwise have missed.
I can't wait to see SB2's reaction."
Greypolyglot!
I cannot bear the thought of you waiting up all night and getting no sleep.
So here it is:
The "EU" is too complicated.
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195. At 7:32pm on 09 Feb 2009, John_from_Hendon wrote:
"I have just scanned this blog and I compute the paranoia index is extremely high mainly due to a couple of anti-Europeans who are insensitive to reason. They cannot comprehend that others do not see the World from their particular point of view. This is a pity as there is much to constructively talk about in Europe.
They do not seem to comprehend that putting forward the same arguments in the same way to a group of people who have rejected their whole logical position will not further their cause."
1) Who does he mean? He clearly does not mean me because I am not anti-European. I am anti-"EU".
2) I do not know who reads this blog. Certain pro-"EU" posts make comments that I have already dealt with. So presumably they come from somebody new. So presumably I am entitled to try to persuade them. I don't actually think there is much chance of persuading them. I am more interested in persuading those who are as yet undecided and supplying arguments to those who are decided but are not sure how to put it.
An example: An opponent of the "EU" said to me "I hate the French." Now that is not my line. I do not hate the French. I hear Germans, Brits, Americans, Austrians and even French people complaining about the French but I seem to get on remarkably well with them. I have in the past thought of moving to France and even of becoming a French citizen but I am no longer interested in that because of the "EU". I have actually found myself walking around in France thinking: "I can't see anything wrong with the French but everybody else can. What is wrong with me?"
So this bloke says: "I hate the French." So I say: "What every French person , every single one?"
To which he replies very emphatically: "NO!NO! NO!"
So he didn't hate the French. He then made a lot of derogatory comments about French politicians and the French police. So he had some justifiable complaints. He just didn't express them clearly.
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I recommend this:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/bruno_waterfield/blog/2009/02/09/european_disunion_is_the_eu_cracking_up
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SB
"The "EU" is too complicated."
So I recommend this.
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oldnat @205 you shouldn't do this to people. The three little kittens, you know, they lost their mittens! will be haunting me o great news for the night
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JFH #195
I make no effort to hide my opinion nor apologize for it and that is that Europe is an inferior civilization, especially compared to that of the United States of America. There are countless manifestations of it I have cited but the crux of it goes to the very heart of what European and American means. These are far more than cultures, histories, geographical locations, they are states of mind. The two could hardly be further apart. Europe on the whole hasn't really changed much in this regard in centuries, not in any substantive way. But the state of mind of people who went to America from wherever they came begins to change as soon as they set foot on American soil. America is centuries ahead of Europe in the ways most crucially important to the greatest enjoyment and fulfillment in life for the most people. Given that America is so diverse that people from every corner of the globe live here in relative harmony even if their relatives are at war back home is proof. By the second generation, those born in the US, they are virtually indistinguishable from one another regardless of their ancestry in these critical ways. In Europe it's quite the opposite. Europeans still stuck in the same mind set of centuries past look at race, religion, ethnicity, class, sex, and other factors particular to an individual they have no control over to make judgements and establish their relationships among each other. This is one reason why despite the current economic crisis gripping the world, if earth remains habitable and neither place suffers calamitous physical destruction either natural or man made, the US will continue in its ascendency and Europe will continue to decline. Other large civilizations such as China, India, Japan, Russia, Brazil, also have fatal flaws which prevent them from overcoming barriers to achieving the kind of society America has created and continues to perfect. Whether on not any of them achieves parity in material wealth remains to be seen but that is not the ultimate criteria of how successful a civilization is anyway. It's simply a fact people who live in Europe don't want to face. When the are forced to by circumstance...they emigrate.
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MarcusAureliusII
I wouldn't call Europe inferior. Its Europeans and European values that the US is built on. One could say it has implemented them better because they had the chance to start afresh. Its always difficult to change things around after having done them in a certain way for hundreds/thousands of years.
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To Gheryando and MarcusAureliusII:
An excellent book, in a form of travel diary, that touches the connection between USA and Europe is America from Jean Baudrillard.
And yes, its safe to read for any American too as it doesn't contain anti-Americanism.
To quote one of the reviewers in the Amazon website: "The interesting thing about this book is that Baudrillard's attitude toward American culture--and this is certainly atypical of the average Euro thinker--is not condescending. This is a Frenchman (for a change) who is genuinely fascinated by America and its kitschy world of movie screens, parking lots, freeways, strip malls and airports."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Baudrillard
http://www.amazon.com/America-Jean-Baudrillard/dp/0860919781
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179. The Swiss - Liechtenstein border isn't subject to full border control only video surveillance until Liechtenstein joins the Schengen Area later this year.
As for your 197. comment I believe neither San Marino and Vatican are de jure members of the Schengen Area (so that means that neither of them have access to Article 96 data) hence they're not listed on the website.
Amusingly enough Andorra is the only microstate in Europe that has full border controls and non EU citizens even need to have an entry VISA.
76. SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
Ticape!
Do you get paid to post here?
In an odd way I actually feel honoured that you mentioned me so I'll be perfectly honest with you:
I don't get paid by the EU and to be honest I don't post here nearly enough to warrant a paycheck ;)
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@207 Mavreden "race religion ethnicity class sex" don't remember USSR Homo Sovieticus had either problem. Same amalgamation of folks as on your side into Homo Americantus.
Only better than yours - in USA you do seem all to have common culture by the 2nd generation, while USSR retained cultures of constituencies. I could live with my school friends clearly identifying themselves as "I am Chechen, Jewish, Polish, Bulgarian, Tatar, Lithuanian - and don't even hope I will do things your idiotic Russian way."
It was allright and taken for granted.
While you seem at peace with your co-patriots only when they behave common American way.
Now I am not sure which way is correct, to create homogenity or not
anyway what is done is done.
Overall of course funny to read your boasting. But then I can live with you being an American who says - and don't even hope I will do things your idiotic Russian way."
In
Only unfortunately the USA didn't like competition.
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For example Mavrelius, when an American wants to clean a carpet you send it off to the dry-cleaning or torture it with a water and stuff all into filter-absorbing vacuum cleaner.
While Russians think of snow and Turkmens think of rivers.
We take ours outdoor stretch them in snow and brush snow over. And then you broom and brush snow away off them together with the dust.
BTW - England - you've got snow now once in a century - how about economic and chemical-free environment-friendly chance to clean English carpets in all English homes? Make some use of your snow.
Turkmens whose carpets are best in the vicinity no denial, roll them and drag to the nearest creek or a mountain river the best, plunge them, press down by a couple of rocks so that the carpet wouldn't run away in the stream, and then the river swims through the carpet cleaning it the best. Natural wash mach and a wool carpet done properly mind it does not lose colour and does not shrink from water. It is not a woolen jumper. It's a Turkmen carpet designed to be "rivered".
So much more fun that your standard vacuum-cleaning.
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Post 207
I read somewhere one that the difference between Americans and Europeans is that Americans see no limits in life, that everything is possible, while Europeans know that there are limits in life, and that once you know what those limits are you can work within them and make something that will last. As a European I don’t begrudge America their wealth and lifestyle. If it is happiness that they wish to pursue in whatever form they wish to create their culture then that’s fine. But I think that now as a civilization, and I think that they have won the label, (because as a European I do feel more kinship with my fellow continental Europeans irrespective of their nationality than with Americans, its not a insult its just the way I feel), they may find that their enthusiasm for life is going to wear thin. To realise that there are limits to what you can do. You can eat too much or you get fat. You can’t keep borrowing recklessly, because there are limits to the market and rampant individualism. You can’t keep on exploiting the environment recklessly for continuous consumption because the consequences will be dire.
If Americas cultural motto is Carpe Diem-seize the day, then Europe’s is Memento Mori-remember that one day you will die, and when you accept that life has an inevitable limit you tend take things in moderation. People call Europe socialist and slightly conservative. I don’t think that’s quite right. “Megen Agan” I think is the Greek saying. All things in moderation. By the end of the Second World War we were sick with extremes. Extreme left, extreme right and so on. If we find American culture suspicious now it’s not out of hatred or envy, its because we see an extremism in such things as consumerism and religion that makes us uneasy.
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Gherando;
Human beings evolved from lower forms of life but there are vast differences resulting from that evolution. European settlers may have initially brought their baggage with them and newcomers still do. They may have relied on some of that initially but America is strictly self invented. No other society or civilization like it exists or ever has. The point of departure began at the time of arrival. From there the societies diverged. This started before the American revolution and while new arrivals continued to infect those already here with their old world notions, as their numbers became relatively fewer as a percentage of the total population and their inherited ethos had been left farther and farther behind in the collective American psyche, that influence diminished. This is one reason why so many of Europe's "isms" never really had a serious chance to take root in America the way they did in Europe. When it was time to cast Europe off entirely, Americans threw away Europe's book on how government, society, civilization should work and wrote their own. They are still writing it. Barack Obama is just part of the latest chapter.
I don't think Europeans or anyone else not born in America can actually understand it. Uusally the most superficial comparisons are made either through naivete' or to trivialize profound differences because Europeans have such disdain for America's values. Seeing America though European eyes may be entertaining for Americans occasionally but it is not particularly informative to us and merely presents distortions and inaccuracies to others. Nobody from the outside understands America the way Americans understand themselves and that goes for BBC too.
Those who think otherwise should consider that the invention of America was a rejection of Europe, not just its political control but its way of looking at life. Europe has nothing to teach America except to serve as an example of what not to be or do. But most Americans know that instinctively already.
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MAII
I don't disagree with your last post. I am merely saying that the Founding Fathers borrowed heavily from European philosophical schools, examples are John Locke, Rousseau, etc.
I doubt that native Americans would have come up with something similar. Why? Because they could not draw on a similar source of inspiration and were too bugged down with hunting bisons and survival in general. I stick to my point that European thought provided the seeds. What has grown out of it is, of course, a uniquely "American" civil society.
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"207. MarcusAureliusII:
I make no effort to hide my opinion nor apologize for it and that is that Europe is an inferior civilization, especially compared to that of the United States of America. "
“America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
Oscar Wilde”
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I don't see the difference, MA.
Deprived of roots or having deliberately cast them off, either way, you faced having zero identity.
So naturally you cling onto yourself, and created your own identity.
Then you became very nationalistic in this.
Easy to note in every second phrase of yours.
So what is the difference btw you and Chechens? in the "race", "ethnicity" aspect. Same ultra-nationalist.
Russian scientist Gumilev (of the ones you so much despise) (the same ones you imported several thousand from USSR in 1990s "brain drain", onto ready homes, excellent compensation packages, the targeted list) defined nationalities and races not by genes but by landscape, weather and necessity to live in one common environment, interacting with neighbours, by common values joining in people, that make them differentiate - "this is our nation way", "this is not-our way". As the base that forms a nation. You were formed exactly by those rules, only so far very young. In another 500 years the genes will reflect "An American" , as well.
So you are a nation.
A nationalistic nation.
What's new? From the point of Old Europe who saw it all - nothing new about you.
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Overall I'm amazed by the weakling European reply to MA statements. Either all working not in the blog or sleep or I don't know what. "Yeah, USA them rich".
MA from what you say follows you consider yourself not a nation but a supernatural nation, the wonder that this old Earth hasn't seen so far. A form of society organisation that excels all others.
A nation of batmen!
On the basis of 150 years of experience. A great period to judge. A flick of a second in historical perspective. Won't even remind you that Romans thought their civilisation is the only recommended way of living, or was it Atlantis sunk or whoever.
Are you sure the direction of development in this Earth is towards the better and better life forms? Like, the "recent" - means "the best".
So being the most successful recently simultaneously means "the best life form there existed on the planet so far"?
May be it is, developing towars the better, but a good parameter for judging the success of a formation is also its longeivity.
With all the respect - 150 yrs - during which your typical "American" features transferred and became visible, like a child picture transfer - is pea-nuts.
Is your civilisation exist-able?
And how about not ruining "all the others"?
Along the glorious path of your life form development.
_________________
All that you say "we quit Europe", "if it depended on me" is xxxt. You won't go anywhere. Not because your government is silly and making a mistake. You simply can't.
(BTW MA, are you aware you're becoming a total Obamafan.)
________________
I find it very alarming all bloggers have missed your post justifying the necessity to print dollars.
You devalue your currency which is by some funny co-incidence is also the currency of this world.
The only one who benefits from the press switch on process is United States.
You cynically rob all others and cynically justify it by necessity for all "but otherwise we will sink and drag you all with us to the bottom."
This is hi-jacking the world and cornering it from the position of strength. Has nothing to do with honest competition so dear to your heart full of American values.
Why not to get busted as decent people do? Announce yourself a bankrupt, state a default of US state obligations.
Pay your debts long due.
The only thing that will happen is your Government won't have money to pay salary to the army and all state workers, all public financed sectors.
So these will go un-paid, will eat grass, start kitchen-gardens, will survive somehow. Standing in the streets, selling their belongings for cents.
Then we will see how really patriotic your folks are.
Oh horrible incredible out of the question.
Surprise surprise if anyone here is in the position to propose this idea it is me, because this is what Russia was when you busted us in Perestroyka.
Our teachers worked un-piad. Doctors. Army - went un-piad for 2 years.
Pensioners - had no pensions paid. The state was busted, backed off on its obligations.
Still, strangely, no army man turned the rockets they had at anybody, or let anyone else come fool around with nuclear stuff. They manned their places - no food - then no food - duty first. Same worked teachers and doctors.
Rare remaining factory workers were paid by tyres, pans and clothes - whatever their factory makes. And stood out at city markets - trading it for food. For 5 years.
Famous "barter" years.
Still nobody abandoned their places, we had no black-outs, water switch offs or electricity failures. Subway worked, and buses. Hoping for the best. To outlive this period somehow, while country is busted.
Will your Americans do the same? Three ha-ha. Batmen nation.
Even in 1930-s your folks had decency simply said I'm a goner and jumped down off various floors from Empire State building.
Were honest people, may I say so.
Which you aren't anymore.
I am sure the world will survive somehow if US gets honestly financially busted.
Which you are, only you don't want to face it, but try to cover your mistakes at the expense of the others.
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#207 - MarcusAureliusII
You are perfectly entitled to your views regarding the superiority of the United States. Fortunately, we too have freedom of expression and if you wish to use these columns to lambast European cultural values, nobody will try to stop you.
Perhaps you should have pause to think for a moment what your recitals of remarks which are dangerously close to being gratuitously insulting do to the reputation of your country. You and I have had exchanges that have been interesting and you have shown yourself to be well informed and intelligent in other contexts so why on earth do you find it necessary to promote an image which many Americans have been trying to ditch for some years now of being loud-mouthed, arrogant, presumptive, prejudiced and boorish. That is not the natural American state of mind and - if I have read you correctly - not yours either.
It would not be difficult to construct a devastating critique what you are pleased to call your society. Fortunately we have more manners and better things to do with our time.
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#216 - greypolyglot
I think it was also Wilde who said "it is sometimes better to keep ones thoughts to oneself and be thought an idiot than to express them and leave no room for doubt" - something like that anyway. MAII?
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220. threnodio:
Even better, the delicious irony is that it was someone of whom MA2 must surely approve
— Mark Twain !
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threnodio @220, LOL. Don't scare me with such Oscar Wilde wisdoms; if you wouldn't insert "MAII" at the end I'd think this similary refers to me! ;o)
MAII I am not for doom and gloom for your dear darling United States.
Live, and let others live.
But it beats me that you find the current times - a good time to boast about anything.
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I think China is the best
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#221 - greypolyglot
Really? I am clearly spending too much time on the PC and not enough at the bookshelf:-)
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Why will no-one talk about Latvia? Isn't this the topic of this blog?
MAII - I was not having a 'pop' at you although it is very very easy to do so, but if the caps fits...
I get dismayed that this particular blog seems almost totally unable to discuss the subject of the blog even remotely and just degenerates into a pointless and unilluminated exchange of pro and anti-Europeans where the same statements are made week after week. The long tails of the ranting and the reiteration of fixed positions in Mark Mardell's Euroblogs do not illuminate and it seems to be worse here than elsewhere.
Why can the contributors to this blog not stick to the subject?
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There is fortunately no way no argue that one culture is better or worse than any other (at least for those who have a broader sense of history and nature).
Usefulness, practicality, profit, morals, ethic and whatever else can be brandished as arguments cannot sustain but a short term perspective, be valid for a particular group, or in specific circumstances. To ignore the limits of a position of apparent superiority is a fault, not a virtue.
Now while it is quite possible that the US has left in itself a century or more of world leadership, this is by no means guaranteed by the present situation. As threnodio pointed out, the arrogance, despotism and ignorance of, well more or less anything human, exhibited by the US over the last couple decades, but more so under ex-president Bush, is not what America is. Its unilateralism has been for this period truly barbaric (meaning biased and unilateral). It reminds me of a Russian lady I once saw who had a huge right arm because all she did day in day out was to serve ice cream scoops (probably out of the freezer, frozen solid).
By any standard however America is a young nation and full of life in its core. It learns quite fast as youngsters do, and here an advantage accrues. But as a youngster, who typically exhibit a herd behavior and little ability to perceive themselves as distinct from others, it is not very capable of constructive relations.
Its fear its a projection of its own insecurity compensated by a bullying attitude. Its greed is a reflection of its doubt in its own creative powers despite its many creative people. Its envy of other, especially Europe, comes out in its ostentation. For Americans feel the loneliest creatures at heart and they strongly suspect the rest have a satisfaction in life that escapes them. Whether true or not, they find no alternative but to show-off to arise the envy of others, but which closely mirrors their own envy.
America's sloth is apparent in its unwillingness to reflect in any depth on who they are and who are the others. The attitude of focusing solely on what is useful now and to them is childish and demonstrates the maturity of their leadership. And I could go on.
Personally I believe that America will evolve positively and for this it needs the variety of the world. For in isolation nobody develops just like one cannot develop personally in isolation from others, the opposite gender and other cultures.
A mature America, truly sure of itself, will find no need to belittle anyone else and fully appreciate nature, including humans and cultures, in all their marvelous variety.
To help the process along everyone else needs to do their part and find their own footing and appreciation of themselves. Measuring up to American values only reinforces the inadequacy and inferiority complexes of every other culture, yet so far they cannot help it. Everyone seems fascinated by the strength of the bully and its portrayed success. Everyone is too busy criticizing America, looking for faults if not for things to copy. But the efforts to assert their own identity are nowhere near to ensure self-respect and hence also do not help command respect from America.
I may be wrong in this as it is quite possible that intoxication from power and an imbalanced development may lead America to a premature failure. In the last 2000 years no empire has lasted beyond a few hundred years, so it remains to be seen if the newest experiment of nature is more successful. For the critics, America so far has shown no signs of a higher wisdom.
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Re no. 225, John from Hendon
Unfortunately in the UK any discussion of the EU comes hand in hand with foaming at the mouth and repetition of the same old mantras. These people don't care about Latvia, about unclaimed EU funds or what the Parliament is doing, what they want is "out, out, out" and this will be backed up with information sourced from the Daily Mail and Torygraph about how the EU is the source of all our ills, and how everything will magically get better once the country leaves.
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In support of #225 John, I also would much appreciate that the discussions stuck some more to Latvia. I am of the idea that the problem is much broader and hence I welcome digressions and an extended world-view. But ranting about pro and con EU, without any connection as John correctly indicates, looses all the possible participation of Latvian bloggers.
I would point out that this demonstrates an attitude that Latvia doesn't matter, and in general probably any small countries. So one is left to ask, where is then the pride in the variety of Europe? And one cannot but suspect that it is mere lip service and that the EU is just as arrogant at heart as any other self denominated superpower.
This conclusion bodes not well for any expectation of maturity and leaves the EU without a firm position to question America's.
Can anyone cite any example of how Western European countries have benefited, learned from, innovated or found any synergies with the Eastern European sisters over the past nearly 20 years?
Has it really been a one way street of teaching, subsidizing, financing, etc.?
Is it possible that the experiences of 100 million people were written off of no value at all?
Is it possible that the variety of cultures that the EU is so proud to say it 'preserves' have been of no value whatsoever to ignite Europe's renewal?
Has the EU really been so blind not to appreciate the unique, diverse and divergent ways of thought and experience, including those of the Soviet sisters, to obtain from them new strength and paths forward?
Would we be wrong if we said Europeans are Do-gooders, know-it-allers, colonizers, making up in their back yard for their sense of inferiority in an American dominated world perhaps?
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225. John_from_Hendon:
Why will no-one talk about Latvia? Isn't this the topic of this blog?
...
I get dismayed that this particular blog seems almost totally unable to discuss the subject of the blog even remotely and just degenerates into a pointless and unilluminated exchange of pro and anti-Europeans where the same statements are made week after week.
...
Why can the contributors to this blog not stick to the subject?"
You are, of course, quite right and I for one would be quite happy to learn more about a country of which I know little.
Sadly, MA2 has made it his life's work to "have a go" at all Europeans because some, seemingly, have insulted him or his country.
Equally sadly the likes of ikamaskeip and SB2 gloat about the misfortunes of others and seek to attribute everything to the EU.
Shouldn't even irrelevant lies be countered? After all, "a lie told often enough becomes a truth" - Lenin (who probably knew what he was talking about)
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I only come on this site for a good rant against the EU.
Besides, what of real interest is there to say about Latvia?
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To LibreHacer (228):
The discussion moving back to the bigger picture of the EU and the world at whole doesn't demonstrate that Latvia or its situation wouldn't matter. Actually what it demonstrate that we are not, the rest of the Europe and the world that is, terrible afraid of the situation in Latvia, in other words we have seen this all before and know that things will get better, in more directly we trust Latvia and that Latvians will sort things out eventually.
We also know that the problems Latvians are experiencing right now partly are because of global causes and problems. Yes, there are local Latvian made problems, yes, there are regional EU made problems, but then there are global problems that essentially dictate how the world runs and what is the balance of the world. In this sense discussing about the EU and the world does have its place.
Now what goes to on to your question about Eastern Europe and how has lets say the old Europe benefited from it other than teaching, subsidizing and financing...
Before giving some answer to your question, I'm just wondering what is the answer you would have wanted...
In economic sense having the eastern Europe free itself from communism and then later starting integration process with the western Europe has been a huge success. Many European companies have become more competitive by expanding their functions to eastern European countries and leveraging their benefits. For example motor companies expanded to east almost the moment borders opened. Nokia just recently moved its mobile phone plant from Germany to Romania as it became EU member. If there wouldn't have been Romania, then the plant would have been moved to some other probably non-European country. In economic sense joining eastern Europe with western Europe is just a huge and continuing success.
In other dimensions, for example culture and arts, we are just going to start seeing more of the results of ever continuing integration. You have to understand that for almost these days, going for an holiday to eastern European countries haven't been that lucrative offer, its been just easier and safer to just fly to Paris or to other old EU countries. Actually there is still so much to go before people can really move...
For example my brother has just started to talk about going for a road-trip to Europe in next summer: he bought a second hand Cadillac and that car is just begging to go for a long ride. Our plan includes blasting off via Sweden, Denmark, Germany and France and visiting places there. The reason for this route is simply because we can just ride one continues motorway all the way. For us taking Via Baltica and going after that to eastern Europe is off the table just because there is no continues motorway that we can blast. Of course more and more places are being connected with motorways, but they aren't still nearing the ubiquity of western Europe.
I should also alleviate that the other reason for why its essential that there is a high speed train connection from Helsinki to Warsow and from there to other parts of Europe is that it eases up movement of people. For example from Helsinki to Riga its almost 400 km, for one to get between these two either we have to take either take the tedious and comparatively slow airplane or the relatively dangerous and very slow car option, these both options restrict and increase the costs of traveling. Now if we would have a 300km/h bullet train moving between these places, I could be in Riga under 2 hours, so in essence: 7am to train in Helsinki, 9am in Riga, 9.30am at the first meeting, 12am lunch, 1pm second meeting, 3pm jump train to Helsinki and 5pm at Helsinki. What that would allow is created flexibility and efficiency for companies, it would be more easier for example start an Research and development department there and stay in constant contact with them, or go there and make a sell.
I should also add that it takes time before people realize what options they can use. For example I have just now noticed that it costs only approx 60e to go with a train from Helsinki to St. Petersburg. When I noticed how cheap that actually is, I started to plan a trip there. Also as Finnish and Russians are moving their passport control on the moving trains, just going there for a short holiday or trip becomes more and more easier and lucrative.
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#230 - MaxSceptic
Whatever it is, it is going to be more interesting than a rant against the EU.
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threnodio @232,
That's very liberal of you.... ;-)
What next, a feigned interest in Scandinavian wood processing plants?
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greypolyglot and Comment229 that "..equally the likes of Ikamaskeip..gloat about the misfortunes of others and seek to attribute everything.. to the EU.."
'Gloat'? If you can point to one Comment by me that gloats over any EU nation's 'misfortunes' I would be amazed. I fully sympathise with the dreadful effects of the present economic crisis on every European nation and have discussed at length where I feel a National rather than supra-National (EU) approach to matters would be far more beneficial and allow quicker remission of the worst ills of the situation.
Apparently you view it as reprehensible of me to point out there are difficulties within the EU even though I am Commenting on articles written by BBC Journalists with titles like Latvian Hard Times - Getting Harder?
Correct me if I am wrong, but, I was of the understanding Latvia was a member of the EU.
Apparently you view it as entirely laudable that your pro-EU and pro-Effects of Membership views are placed on record because of course your views are so much more reasoned?
Mr Mardell is the BBC Journalist responsible for covering and reporting on the European Union. It is surely then encumbent on people, such as you and I, who wish to contribute to the Blog Mr Mardell provides on the EU to make Comments applicable to the EU. If you care to read other BBC Blogs on America, UK etc. you will find I have made Comments there which express my opinions on the relevant topics of the Blogs: None of them, except in contextual passing, refer to the EU, because of course in most cases those Blogs are not about the EU.
I have read and admired a number of your cogent, informative and reflective pieces. Often in substance I do not agree, but, that free exchange of views is how Democracy works and is its most basic strength. You Sir, should always be able to express your opinion, no matter how opposite in tone, or misled or plain mischievous they may be. In that sense you have every right to lament my oft expressed hostility to the EU: Indeed, every time you climb on your highly sentenious textual horse to proclaim how inferior the anti-EU likes of myself are, you do my cause no end of good. For by it you expose the ingrained EU-infallibility tenor of minds such as yours. Sentiments of superiority which simply cannot conceive of the Commoner/Citizen as being anywhere near your level of intellect and understanding. It is possible you are right in that surmise, but, in the Democracy we enjoy all our voices have entitlement.
Thus, I close by saying, more power to your Keyboard skills for with it comes public exposure of the limitations of your EU!
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#233 - MaxSceptic
What makes you think any interest on my part in Scandinavian wood processing plants would be feigned? . . . zzzzzzzzz
OK - go ahead - rant:-)
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@231 Jukki, and moreover - you'll arrive to "The Finland Railway Station" - "Finlyandsky Vaugzal" (Vauxhall?).
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To MaxSceptic (233) and threnodio (235):
You insensitive clods! I'm a member of fan club of the Scandinavian wood processing plants! I strongly condemn your anti-Scandinavian wood processingism!
Haven't you people ever visited a modern saw mill in a school field trip? What about pulp and paper mill?
If you say no, then I wonder no more why the British industrial heritage has so quickly vanished!
Next you are probably telling me you have never visited a nuclear plant.
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OK, about Latvia.
Will Latvian bloggers tell if it's true it's by law prohibited to hint at possibility of local currency devaluation, in public sources?
newspaper articles or interviews given to media
I heard it's may be a gossip that a journalist in Riga who told half a year ago the main bank will collapse shortly was prosecuted. Then the Bank collapsed and was nationalised, bought by the State for the official sum of 2 euros. Parex it was?
Of good and positive things I found in St. Petersburg yesterday a small shop selling leather from Riga factory, I mean various wallets and book covers and address books it's orangie-brownish light in colour with printed carved in ? prints of various Riga sights. The Domsky Cathedral ( I think about? 800? years old) and other Latvian sights.
For the Europe not in the knowing we've always had those small leather things from Riga and they are lovely and hold long. I am equipped since old times, with glasses' holders and credit card holders and key-ring holders of those printed stuff and what not.
Besides definitely recommend when there to bring home a bottle of Rizhsky balsam.
It's something strong on herbs and is considered to be a very healthy way to get drunk. :o) Especially for kidneys. You take a tiny tiny glass with your tea.
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234. ikamaskeip:
greypolyglot and Comment229
'Gloat'? If you can point to one Comment by me that gloats over any EU nation's 'misfortunes' I would be amazed."
I've reviewed your posts and withdraw that comment with an unreserved apology.
Who on earth was I thinking of?
"Apparently you view it as reprehensible of me to point out there are difficulties within the EU ...."
Not at all. I just take exception to those who, with no proof adduced simply assert that the EU is responsible for this, that or the other of mankind's ills.
"Apparently you view it as entirely laudable that your pro-EU and pro-Effects of Membership views are placed on record because of course your views are so much more reasoned?"
Again, not at all. I think (hope) that more often than not I simply try to point out errors - usually made elsewhere but then repeated here. Errors, like lies, if repeated often enough come to be taken to be the truth because they have been said or written by so many.
"I have read and admired a number of your cogent, informative and reflective pieces. "
Now I think that it must be you that has mistaken one interlocutor for another.
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# 229. At 5:12pm on 10 Feb 2009, greypolyglot wrote:
"Equally sadly the likes of ikamaskeip and SB2 gloat about the misfortunes of others and seek to attribute everything to the EU.
Shouldn't even irrelevant lies be countered? After all, "a lie told often enough becomes a truth" - Lenin (who probably knew what he was talking about)"
You naughty person!
Show me where I have gloated over the misfortunes of others!!!!!!!!
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227. At 5:04pm on 10 Feb 2009, Ravenseft wrote:
"Unfortunately in the UK any discussion of the EU comes hand in hand with foaming at the mouth and repetition of the same old mantras. These people don't care about Latvia, about unclaimed EU funds or what the Parliament is doing, what they want is "out, out, out" and this will be backed up with information sourced from the Daily Mail and Torygraph about how the EU is the source of all our ills, and how everything will magically get better once the country leaves."
I care about Latvia. Once we are outside the "EU" we will be better placed to help other countries.
I am not aware of the Torygraph or the Daily Mail claiming that the "EU" is the source of all our ills.
I certainly do not claim that it is. I do claim that it is an unnecessary complication. I claim that are are a whole load of home-grown ills in the UK. We will be able to concentrate on them better once we have left the "EU".
Ravenseft! Stop distorting the truth!
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Oh so much European anger, I must be gettig close to the truth, nearing a raw nerve. There's only one thing to do then...probe deeper.
Gheryando #208
"It's always difficult (for Europe) to change things around after having done them in a certain way for hundreds/thousands of years."
So you see it too. Compared to Americans they are like cavemen, something out of the stone age. You'd hardly know it when they wear a suit and tie...until you talk to them. Then the reality emerges.
209 JR...deToqueville and his ilk are amusing to Americans as a diversion but as I posted elsewhere, they tell us nothing new we don't already know and lots that's distorted. It's like getting a report about what you look like from someone looking at you from a far distance with a telescope when you can just look in a mirror and see much more clearly.
Web Alice #211....looks like the Chechens showed you their way...at Beslam. And the Russians returned the favor...in Grozny. Russia is just one big happy country.
Who boasts? Russians boasted. The world's biggest bell. The world's biggest canon. The world's biggest nuclear explosion. The world's biggest....oops, that would get this post deleted. I hate to break it to you Alice but....the USSR lost the cold war. (That's competition for you.) But they still keep on fighting hoping to revise history. The Chinese renamed the street the Soviet Embassy was on in Peiking during the cold war "Revisionist Street." Kind of reminds me of Orwell's 1984 where history kept being re-written as events changed. I think that is common in Europe. How many Russians died in WWII? When I was small they claimed 18 million. Then 22. Now it's up to 26 or 28. Before I die, I'll bet they'll have it over 100 million. Just like how many MacDonalds hamburgers were sold, that's how MacDonalds advertised in the early days.
Alice #212
I hate to tell you this Alice but I have a confession to make. I've got two of those Bissell steam carpet cleaners, one for upstairs and one for downstairs. I got tired of carrying that heavy machine up and down. I'm glad I don't get my drinking water from the river downstream of where the Turkmen clean their carpets :-)
FM #213
In a way I feel sorry for you. Material things are the most superficial aspects of life, important only to those who don't have as many of them or the type of them they want. A long time ago, I realized that I had over one million individual things. Hard to believe. No human being could possibly keep track of so many things, what they are, where they are at any given time. Even which house or state they are in. Often when I am so frustrated I can't find something I know I have and have seen recently that I need to use like a tool, I just go out and buy another one. Believe me, eventually they become very uninteresting after you are satiated with them, are drowing in them. If I keep buying cheap things made in China, there won't be room for any more oxygen in my house.
Gheryando #215
Having read many treatises may have given America's founding fathers thoughts to chew on but they thrashed out the invention of America all by themselves. They not only disagreed vehemently at times with each other, their first stab at it, The Articles of Confederation was a failure. I think you need a refresher course on American history if you are American. The one European American's learned most from was probably King George III. They learned what not to do to recreate another European style tyrannical despotism like Britain. And those are the kind of words they used in the Declaration of Independence. Read it sometime.
gray #216, why waste time with civilzation when it is only a path to decadence anyway. Europe hasn't gotten there yet. It's still working on getting to civilization. Maybe in a few thousand years. Remember what Gheryando said in #208, it's difficult at least for Europeans to change. Do you think if America left, Europe would go back to having at least one major war each generation the way it did for over a thousand years before America became Europe's policeman?
Very talkative today Alice. If you don't know the difference between Americans and Chechens (#217), I certainly can't explain it to you. Perhaps someone else can help you with that.
We really didn't need you to send Gumilev to us. We already had Wrigley's, Chicklets, Dentene, Bazooka, Double Bubble, and much more. We also had gumdrops too :-)
I don't know what you mean about longevity Alice? Are you saying a thousand years of misery in Russia is better than 233 years of happiness in America? Well I have news for you, not all of those 233 years were happy....but I'll bet most of the thousand years in Russia were miserable. hahahaha. Isn't that why vodka was invented? So you say America can't leave Europe? Why not? They survived before America got there.....in their own destestable way.
"The only one who benefits from the press switch on process (of US dollar devaluation) is United States."
By George I think she's got it. Now once again...the rain in Spain is mainly in the plane...I think she's got it.
Alice...in America....no pay...no work. They don't shoot you here for not working. At least not so far. Where you are....well we've read and heard things.
You are right about one thing though. We do worry a great deal about your control over your nuclear weapons. How about a trade. A bushel of American wheat for a Soviet hydrogen bomb. You can't eat hydrogen bombs. One of the worst movies I ever saw was one called "The Atomic Train" where they were transporting a Soviet hydrogen bomb on an American train going through Colorado to be dismantled and the train went out of control...and of course the bomb went off. Terrible movie, not recommended. Didn't look at all real.
threnodio #219, you misunderstand me. I am not merely lambasting your cultural values, it is your entire civilzation including its most basic underlying precepts I have stated as clearly and affirmatively as I know how which I consider inferior and not just by a small increment.
What's that about Brit's having more manners? Have you ever seen drunken Brits after a soccer match in someone else's country? If American style justice were applied to them, half your sports arenas would be empty every weekend match, the non attendees still serving prison sentences abroad.
Alice #222 again. OK, how about a bushel of wheat for a barrel of oil?
Katy bar the door! Gheryando is going to emigrate to China.
John_From_Hendon #225
Now let's reason this out together. Now why would "ranting" as you call it about Europe be worse here than on other BBC blogs? Hint, the name of this blog is "Mark Mardell's Euroblog." If you don't get it in a week, take a train to Oxford where I'm sure an expert logician can help you cipher it out.
Well I had lots of other terrible things to say about Europe but the guy who created Europa Entropa beat me to it.
LibreHacer #226
"There is fortunately no way to argue that one culture is better or worse than another."
So what you are saying is that you can't pick them apart and analyze and compare the relative worth of their values. For example, you can't say that in say in Pakistan or Afghanistan where a woman is raped and as a result she is convicted of having committed adultery and stoned to death with other societies such as the US where if a man doesn't want to be married anymore to the same woman he gets a divorce, that can't be compared and a value judgement be made.. All things are equal then to you. How very European. I rest my case :-)
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Marcus #242 and you pick a sentence, don't bother to read on, or understand, and feel fulfilled. How very Roman (imperialistic, supremacist).
Then you pick on what is wrong somewhere else and you say, ahhh... but we are so good - truly blessed nation - the elect nation even.
But for this you have to belittle someone else. You lack a standpoint to appreciate what Pakistan is, or what is Afghanistan. You are quite happy to accept your own propaganda despite full ignorance of any broader reality.
In the meantime, there are plenty of extremists and crazies in the US. Plenty of murders and violence, plenty of crimes of greed, plenty of abuse.
I repeat myself: your understanding of culture is of a mere extension of time and geography-society bound conventions, as to what is useful now, in a very short term. This is the extent of the reality you are able to perceive.
In this reality you see there is no purpose for nature unless it is part of a supply chain. There is no purpose for variety of culture because you are complete unaware of your own limits.
The main question that America is incapable of seeing (in general, as I know many Americans who can) is how the misery and craziness (out of imbalances) that surrounds its 'global system' is the direct result of its own blindness and contempt for others.
JUkka #231 - You are quite right and there are some 'market' benefits of the new EU countries. But my question is not in this direction. My questions were prompted by:
a) The lack of appreciation of cultural variety. So far, Marcus is right, and no one seems capable of formulating an answer that explains how variety is good. EU bashers confirm this indirectly. The lack of perspective of Latvia as well. From these observations you could easily conclude that a one market, one language, one set of values solution is far superior. But pro-EU people talk the benefits of variety, where are they?
Please excuse me, but having more consumers and cheap labor are not arguments for variety. They are arguments for conquest, assimilation, colonization, exploitation, or more euphemistically, market leverage. When you do not have any recognition of the value of differences to actually respect the local culture, implicitly or explicitly you seek a process of acculturation.
So my questions stay open and keep looking for specific articulations of why the concept of variety of cultures has something to counter to the model of universal acculturation espoused by the US.
b) The lack of appreciation of the type of problem the world faces. You put it away as a series of cause-effect situations at various levels of responsibility. However, the case in my view is that some more fundamental changes are taking place, including a growing resistance to a 'system' that has become too monolithic.
I suspect variety is part of the answer but can't find here any perspective on this matter. Everyone is centered on their own national dominating idea or by their emotional rejection of something. This provides an assertion by the negation of the other, like we are not that or the other. But not in the positive, in your own right,.
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Re: no. 241, SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
"Once we are outside the "EU" we will be better placed to help other countries."
Once the UK is out, it will do well to help itself, or more precisely to continue to exist in its current form. Once the reality hits home that withdrawal has not been the panacea that Farage and his boys claimed and business trickles away elsewhere, what will be left is a country on the decline masquerading as Switzerland. Rather like an elderly relative at a Xmas party who keeps banging on about what he or she used to be.
The seeds of the "home-grown ills" were mostly sown many years ago, before 1973 in any case. Leaving the EU to sort out what should have been dealt with years ago would be tantamount to digging one hole to escape from another. It's all too convenient to blame somebody else (especially foreigners) for problems, the existence of which has been strongly highlighted by the country's participation in the world's largest and most successful trading bloc.
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greypolyglot and Comment239.
This interlocutor humbly accepts a gracious apology.
Apologies, I still have to take issue with you though and indulge in my usual refrain...
You suggested "...errors... become lies.. Lenin.."
That would be a European Union habit, surely?
The Danes in a Maastricht Referenda of 1992-93 that voted 'No' have since lost all but one of the opt-outs the Citizens' electoral decision had required.
The Dutch and French in their EU Constitution Referenda voted 'No' and the EU promptly re-wrote the Constitution as a Lisbon Treaty. A few periphery items that might also be termed fripperies (the petty puffs of public image so beloved of MEPs and EUrocrats) were withdrawn but nothing of substance, e.g. '...set-up of EU Public Prosecutors Office with powers to over-ride National Law..' and '..right of EU Commission to ignore National Parliament objections..' concerning the 'Federal project'.
The Irish voted 'No' in a Referenda on the Lisbon Treaty and are to be made to vote again sometime this year having been given 'assurancies' by Brussels. Maybe the Irish being afficianados of horse stock will again reveal to the EU they know when Blinkers are applied there's still no guarantee of getting over the hurdles!
Thus the collision of pan-European Political dogma and the Citizens' will continues. It may seem the EU is in the longterm ascendency, but, as a very astute PM Asquith when similarly hard-pressed on the evident 'Constitutional crisis' of overmighty Peers of the Realm versus Commoners was pleased to say, "Let us wait and see."
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#242. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"John_From_Hendon #225
Now let's reason this out together. Now why would "ranting" as you call it about Europe be worse here than on other BBC blogs? Hint, the name of this blog is "Mark Mardell's Euroblog." If you don't get it in a week, take a train to Oxford where I'm sure an expert logician can help you cipher it out.
Well I had lots of other terrible things to say about Europe but the guy who created Europa Entropa beat me to it. "
Marcus, BECAUSE the blog discusses the topic introduced by Mark Mardell NOT just a generalised rant about Europe.
As usual you have not read or understood what has been written. - Your postings, although numerous are only very tangentially related to the topic and only reflect your own obsessions, and although this is true of most peoples posting this condition is more marked in yours. You generally do not appear to read other peoples' postings.
Most other BBC blogs stick reasonably closely to the topic introduced by the owner of the blog - If you look back of over several blogs you will appreciate the difference.
By the way you were not, as I said before, the primary cause of my concern - but at least it has caused you to react - the other bloggists have just ignored my concerns as they are so obsessed by their own preoccupations that nothing gets through to them at all!
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" # 240. SuffolkBoy2:
Show me where I have gloated over the misfortunes of others!!!!!!!!"
Dear me, this really isn't my day. I have also reviewed your posts and find that you too have done no such thing.
I can only suppose that with your constant negativity over the EU I ascribed "gloating" to you as well. Well, whatever else you have had to say, I was in error over that.
I withdraw my comment with an unreserved apology.
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245. ikamaskeip:
Please take a few minutes to read these and then compare with your comments.
http://www.out-law.com/page-6164
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But, can we please try to stick to Latvia on this thread?
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Ravensft and Comment244.
Yes, once out of the EU, the UK, or more precisely, that part called England (for it is the English by large majority who want out) will find that 'reality' you so decry, but nothing like the doom-laden future you fear.
True, the UK or England could well follow Switzerland in relation to the EU. I have yet to read anything suggesting its 'friendship and co-operation', 'trade' and 'economic understanding' arrangements with the EU neighbour has done it any harm.
However, you really must not compare the land-locked Alpine nation of approx 7 million with the British Islands of 60,000,000 inhabitants. The idea that the EU will ignore or gradually cut-off dealings with its nearest significant trade-customer-investor is social-economic-fiscal nonsense.
EU Financiers may look towards Frankfurt's Central Bank more than ever but, if anything has been demonstrated by this present wretched economic downturn, it is that in a Global Share Market one-size-fits-all is no more protection or use to the 400,000,000 EU Citizen than to the Americans, Chinese, or indeed the sad begging-bowl that is most African nations' lot!
UK/England/London importance as a Financial hub will not decline anymore so than Heathrow International Airport (provided the infrastructure of Economic Expertise/Third Runway are in place).
IF the UK left the EU in the next 2 years as EU competences allow would the Olympic Committee cancel the 2012 London Games? Of course not.
EU Businesses trade with the rest of the World: Why would they find the 60million Brits or 49million English anathema as a Customer/Consumer target? Similarly, UK/English entrepreneurs would continue to do good business with mainland Europe and those owning EU based Companies would be at no more disadvantage than any International Group.
EU Citizens would still want to visit the UK to watch the Changing of the Guard or hike over the Pennines etc. Thus British Pounds would still be exchanged for Euros in London-Brussels-Berlin-Paris-Rome etc. I cannot see the Spanish Tourist Board turning away lager-lout but free spending Brit youth anymore than they do now!
EU States would still find and need the participation and cooperation of UK in NATO, Global Warming/Environment Protection, the UNO Security Council, and International Treaty obligations/interests etc.
No, 'once outside', the Social change for British/English Citizens would once more being subject to British/English Law and Regulation. The significant Political alteration would be that for the first time since 1972 the Parliament at Westminster whether representing the Citizens of a United Kingdom or England would have Constituency MPs elected who are only answerable to the British Public. The 'blame' or responsibility for the inevitable positives and negatives of their policies designed to address the "home grown ills" of these Isles squarely upon independent British/English Democratic Citizens' shoulders.
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#249 ikamaskeip
Great Post
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To ikamaskeip (249):
You shouldn't trust too much on your current position as one of the leading financial center in the world. What you don't notice that other parts of the world, especially the EU and the Eurozone are constantly working via integration to elevate the position of Europe.
For example SEPA, Single Euro Payment Area, will dramatically change the European banking and finance sectors. In short it will make the whole Eurozone a domestic market, all transactions in side the Eurozone become domestic. This will lead into increased competition and via competition increased efficiency of the banks and financial service providers functioning in the Eurozone. In the same time we have the ECB and the EU working in advantaging common regulatory framework for the Eurozone. In the end effect of all this integration may very well be creation on pan European banking and financial sector were regional banks join into pan-European banks, strong regional banks will become more specialized etc.. In practice the bank where my money is might very well be Bank of Europe and the credit card I use European Express.
I really wouldn't count much on the banking and financial industries in medium and long term. With further European integration, places which work in the EU and Eurozone will be the largest winners. If UK and London are out of this integration, they will for surely lose in relative sense and with high probability with absolute terms also.
And of course you are right that UK could be outside the EU and that UK and the EU work and co-operate together, but what you don't take on notice is that the EU at first takes care of its interests and only secondly of its proxies. If you want to know what kind of relationship there would be with the UK and the EU then just look at the relationship of UK and USA, very unequal if I may say in many senses. Just take a look on how USA protects its markets and you see hints on what it feels to be outside the EU. The only reason why trade with USA and EU is more or less satisfactorily fairly based is that you have two equally powerful power-blocks who would both equally lose in trade war.
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no 249, ikamaskeip.
Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that the relationship with the EU is two-way, imports and exports. The UK needs to import what it doesn't produce itself, and that will come from mainland Europe, very much as it does now. Tourism also will be unaffected, perhaps even increase if the euro overtakes the pound.
However, what is more important and what you don't address in your reply, is the consequences on what's going out, what the UK needs to sell in order to bring home the bacon. What will be the effect on the Chinese business who is looking to set up a base in Europe? Where is the competitive advantage for a company situated on the wrong side of a tariff barrier? Where are the new jobs for the English population going to come from? To work in a white elephant airport which nobody needs?
The comparisons with Switzerland are made by Farage and his lot. If there is anything to be learnt from the downturn, it's that the Euro has succeeded - so much so that we are not talking about states leaving, but rather new ones joining. It's also highlighted the weakness of the Pound and the problems inherent in a financial sector built on invisible money. International obligations and the Olympics are neither here nor there, they continue regardless. As for MPs, are you honestly suggesting that because of the EU they are no longer answerable to the electorate?
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Mavrelius! "the rain in Spain"
"by George I think she's got it"
In the day or marmot in state Pennsylvania
they pull out of the burrow marmot Phil.
And in Siberia - "medved" (bear) Misha.
If marmot Phil sees his shadow - winter will be longly.
And if Misha sees at least the shadow of the one who pulled him out...
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#249 Ikamskiep-
Well put!! You also might want to put that Britain is well situated as a financial/Banking country to be the ones that benefit from the business of everyone who does not want to do business with the EU or can not.
Am I wrong in thinking that lots of small countries did not go to all of the trouble of winning their freedon from the Soviet Union, just so they can be imprisoned in the EU? Do anybody really think that Albania and Serbia want to be the same country or do they feel threatened by the don't be left out thing.
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245. ikamaskeip:
You suggested "...errors... become lies.. Lenin.."
No, that's a misrepresentation. I wrote 'Errors, like lies, if repeated often enough come to be taken to be the truth because they have been said or written by so many.'
I'll stand by that. There are those who knowingly misrepresent EU activities (my favourite example of that was when the Daily Express stated as a fact on Friday 25 November, 2005 'Eurocrats ban our Red Ensign.') and there are those who simply misunderstand. The former deserve to be shown up as liars and the latter need to have things explained better.
If someone makes a genuine error of understanding are the pro-EU lobby not permitted to attempt to explain?
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Jukka_Rohila and Comment 251 "...what you didn't notice is.."
But, I did notice Jukka! Read my post again.
And, nothing you wrote changes the basic fact the United Kingdom or England do not actually need to be 'Members' of the EU in order to continue to be an effective, democratic State.
Most of the World is not a meber of the EU!
For goodness sake, what is it about the EU that you think makes it indispensable to the UK continuing to be a fully functioning nation.
Finland does benefit from being an EU member: However, Finland did exist before the EU and it was not such a bad social-economic-democracy that it could not survive again!
The EU is on the whole a positive influence for mainland European nations (except for Denmark, I do not actually consider Finland or any Scandinavian nation as being in that mainland geographical entity). It keeps them from fighting wars every 25 to 40 years: That's a really, really vital plus for the EU.
As for an EU Federal-specific involvement in the Social-Judicial-Cultural-Political links of European nations I cannot see any actual additional benefit of EU Membership over and above what pertained prior to the EUrocratic hegemony!?
Ravenseft and Comment 252 that "..two-way... import/export.. wrong side of competitve trade barrier.."
So, the rest of the World does not sell into the EU?
What 'trade barrier' are we referring to? The one that the EU uses at World Trade Organisation meetings to force its views, products and prices on the Third World?
Or, are we referring to the internationally recognised idea that the UK population, like the rest of this global economy, is a thriving market for inbound and outbound products, services, skills, people etc. all reinforced by a Democratic system of Government which for its faults is functioning reasonably.
".. white elephant airport.."!? The UK is not an off-shoot former colony of a great power suffering rampant tyrannical regimes whose only purpose is self-aggrandizement.
Why would China or India or Brazil consider the UK so worthless an investment as to abandon the entire nation forthwith if it quits the EU!?
On the contrary everyone of my Comments addresses the knowledge that the UK/England must be proactive and a winner in that wider world: It is the stultifying EU membership that is gradually destroying that distinctly British capability.
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As for MPs, are you honestly suggesting that because of the EU they are no longer answerable to the electorate?
They can only be answerable for the areas in which they have the abitily to make decisions. As soviergnty is erroded the abitity for the electorite to hold M.Ps to account over all areas of policy s reduced.
And no that doesn't mean that we need to enact the lisbon treaty to make the E.U more Democratic (as this would dilute Democracy to an unacceptable level, If anything decisions should be being made at a lower regional level not a higher pan European one)
It means we need to stop the hemmoraging of Powers to a Democratically defunct E.U
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255# greypolyglot
They may not have banned the red ensign by they have banned me from having a Flag of Saint Gerorge on my number plate, I now have to have a Union Jack or EU Flag
very distasteful
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ikamaskeip @256
EU seems a universal solution to Jukka because Finland feels lonely there, tucked into a corner, with Russia separating them from the rest of the folk who they mentally associate themselves with, "sharing common values" etc.
So Jukksi badly wishes to build a bridge somehow, either by including N.-West Russia into the EU, or as min all those neverending "highways" and "bullet-trains" connecting! connecting the people! finally!
Without a strong EU Finland is ..just Finland. tucked away at Russia's blanket, sleepy side.
Russia itself Jukks doesn't see blind.
Over there! Immediately! to the new shining horizons! somehow! give me a bridge! over the space! a span! a highway!
Be careful Jukks with what you desire for; when dreams come true they often look diametrically opposite.
___________
Mavrelius,
it is too late to worry about safety of Russian nuclear shafts. Yours as well.
We're all at hands of nano-technology development. Which true reason of the recent boost, I'm sorry, is exactly that - the safety of the rocket set-off mechanism.
The way matters stand already - or will be in a matter of ? months? let's say optimistically - a couple of years. It is strongly believed it's enough for an employee to walk into the place carrying on the soles of his shoes a little bit.
At that the only time when you can check - at present - if it got there - through the air- mind it, is when you actually start it off.
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aye-write I have news for you as well. There was a Robert Burns week celebrated recently, the anniversary, 250 since birthday, and among events I spotted an interview with a Cambridge prof.
He claimed he did a research; by his data 250,000 people in North-West Russia now are direct off-spring of Scottish people.
Arrived by themselves in Royal Russia times and grabatised soldiers in our war with Sweden and settled here. The proff. experimented, annoyed :o) families he could trace with your musical tunes and though the folks didn't know themselves their ancestry longer than grandfather - they were all able to complete the melody.
cheered up and began some foot stamping and heels knocking on the floor. Asked how do you know the tune? they shrank shoulders and said "always knew" or "I don't know", but "isn't it that?"
The proff went further and attributed Russian obsession with accordeon village dances, step dance and tin whistles to the Scottish influence in the 18th century.
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Dear Greypolyglot,
Apology accepted, unreservedly.
Best wishes,
SB2
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258.WhiteEnglishProud wrote:
255# greypolyglot
They may not have banned the red ensign by they have banned me from having a Flag of Saint Gerorge on my number plate, I now have to have a Union Jack or EU Flag "
No. This is the sort of thing that I meant when I wrote about lies or misunderstandings being repeated without being challenged.
Please see
http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/press/euromyths/myth56_en.htm
and
since number plates are subject to United Nations Agreements (in this case the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic) you might also want to take a look at Annex 3 on page 19.
Are you man enough to admit that you got it wrong?
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258. WhiteEnglishProud
I'm not often in a position to refer approvingly to the Daily Telegraph but this article puts the blame where it rightly belongs.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/3331127/National-flags-to-be-allowed-on-number-plates.html
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262.
Oops!
United Nations Agreements (in this case the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic)
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Annex 3 on page 19.
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web Alice, please, learn to think critically and don't believe everything you read in the papers
and, answering to your previous question, it is not forbidden to talk about the horrible financial situation we have over here, it's just that the polititians found it a threat that people will stop borrowing money because they do get a lot of "gifts" from the oligarhs and the millionares over here.
and, of course, that didn't make much change, because latvians couldn't be bothered to actually care about what happens with their country, so they didn't protest, partly because we do have the longest working hours in Europe and just don't have the time to care about politics and partly because latvians are pretty lame (sorry to say that, but the history has made us so and, if you don't try to change it, well, it's your own fault)
anyway, webAlice, is that what you read in the local newspapers? cause the propaganda in Russia really interests me.
and your posts are obviously influenced by it.
oh, and in another thread you said that the soviet education is better than the "western" one, well, the soviet education obviously hasn't thought you to think critically and take everything you read with a pinch of salt
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Re no. 256, ikamaskeip:
If you think that the EU is so unnecessary, then perhaps you might want to explain why it is that no Member State except Greenland has ever left, and why there is a queue of candidate countries? Why aren't the citizens of other states voting for parties like UKIP and rolling out the same arguments that are peddled on this blog every day?
Perhaps it might just be that the EU is attractive for business, something perhaps shown by the remarkable growth of most of the Member States. That setting up business in one Member State opens up possibilities to 26 others. That product x can be sold throughout the Union in one currency without customs tariffs or legal obstacles. Indeed, this is exactly what Canada believes: http://www.international.gc.ca/canadexport/articles/386150.aspx?lang=eng
Outside the EU means outside the trade bloc, and although the UK remains a valuable market for most of the world, its attractiveness as a place for doing business undoubtedly falls as it no longer would form part of the single market.
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webaliceinwonderland
Perhaps we should include the jump in trade with other countries in the world, that Russia has forged for itself? Or the ongoing, quiet, and progressive talks going on that would see an extended Schengen Zone, to include Russia? Or that Russia was invited to participate in SEPA talks? Or any number of ongoing discussions on varying topics, that see both EU and Russia trying to work together in forging a new relationship?
All the blind nationalism in the world doesn't hide the reality that the EU is already positioning itself, despite the interference from others, to forge a much bigger trade zone, that includes Russia, as well.
It's public knowledge in Eastern Europe, that there is a concerted effort to keep the EU, the rest of Eastern Europe, and Russia apart, because the union of all in trade would present a massive counterbalance on the planet.
As a global citizen born in Briton, and relatively untainted by the 'flag waving, empire blinded, immorally financed' world of Canary wharf politics, i can see the shift away from Britain, in the financial sector, towards a greater Europe, across a wider base, and with the advent of SEPA, the death knell, for what is one of the few remaining industries of any sort on the islands.
Britons can wax lyrical about independence, and the....alleged 'fascism' of a united EU/RUS, but if they got their wish of leaving the EU, all those businesses, and corporations, all those foreign investors, legal or otherwise, and all those handshakes of invested cash in return for a gb passport will come to nothing.
There is no loyalty in the smell of cash.
And frankly, why would Europe deal with a nation of people that have at times consistently smeared and condemned the citizens of continental Europe and beyond with distasteful and boorish comments (usually about the war), by both politicians and citizens alike? That just tells the rest of the EU and beyond, that Britian isn't going forward, but still living in the memories of the 'empire' as a means to be arrogant with the rest of their EU compatriots.
If Britain turns it's back on the EU, and goes it's own way, then be prepared for the defence of Europe to change shape. France, Germany, Belgium, and Holland may well be the new 'border', with appropriate defence systems to protect the continent. If that happens, then rest assured Europeans will reconsider their relationship with Russia, including the attractive possibility of a united defence force, including Russia.
Political, Economic, and defence requirements would almost demand this, and a lot of Europeans and Russians would swallow their historical rhetoric and go for it, simply because it's the only other option. (And it would be a good move, because despite the constant rhetoric and propaganda about Russia, the people here would be generally thrilled to be part of a wider Europe as equals, and would take their part in this very seriously, including defending fellow Europeans. Evidence of this was apparent last summer, when a fleet of russian water bombers helped the greek government to deal with the massive fires in their country. Just one example...)
So if Britons (and after the Iraq deceit, i'm ashamed to have been born there) REALLY want to be out of the EU, go for it. Then you'll find out who your friends are. History tells us the list will be short.
Wake up, the Empire's gone.
Time to move on, and enjoy the wider landscape that brings peace, trade, and a better future. The EU project is only young, and will take time to mature, including cleaning out the corrupt gravy train, and unelected empire builders, but the concept itself offers a much brighter future, than individual states cutting each others throats, in trade, etc...
Russians i've discussed this with are up for this, to a man, as part of the bigger picture.
MA11
You need to take the rose coloured glasses off, and fix your own backyard first. If you think the EU is enslaved in some way, the news every day is telling us of the giant ponzi scheme called 'american capitalism', and of course the terrible misfortune inflicted on its people as a result.
Pot. kettle, black.
We're fortunate that the US includes some intelligent and openminded people as well.
Means we can have a decent discussion based on intelligent critique, and not tribal brick throwing............
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To LibreHacer (243):
I already earlier on wrote in another thread, which was also about Latvia, I explained my reasoning on why individual cultures are important and valuable. This was the comment that noted Geert Hofstede's cultural dimensions in it. Here is a link to it...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2009/02/riga_latvia_since_dawn_the.html#comment125
Now to continue from the lack of, or from my point view a perceived lack of, appreciation of eastern European cultures, and about acculturation.
The thing that you have to understand that EU functions only as an platform for countries and cultures come together and present themselves, but what EU doesn't do is to present somebody, all countries and nationalities have to stand up and express themselves if they want to get noticed and be known.
For example just in last fall our government created a working group to think on what is and should be the brand image of Finland. People nominated to the working group are our top people from all the arenas of society, from business and science to culture and arts. I should also add that this is only a small part of the work that state does, work is done in all parts of life to connect to different parts of the world and be in exchange with them.
In case of acculturation, I would say that its the natural consequence when different cultures are in touch with each other. I would go even further and say that is the desirable effect.
"Acculturation is the exchange of cultural features that results when groups come into continuous firsthand contact; the original cultural patterns of either or both groups may be altered, but the groups remain distinct. (Kottak 2007)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acculturation
For example in Finland a notable Finnish nationalist A.I. Arwidsson said "Swedish we aren't, to Russian's we won't become, so let us be Finnish". Well that is all fine and dandy, but here starts the hard question and that is what is it to be Finnish, what is it that makes us Finns?
I would say that the answer to that question has always been and seen to be more or less the language and the place itself, the country that we call Finland. With this view it has been easy to look at other places and other cultures as getting to know them or getting notes and learning from them really don't change essentially change our inner core. Of course being a periphery and underdeveloped place added impetus to go and find out what other more successful countries and cultures were doing.
To give some examples...
Iittala is a Finnish company specialized on Scandinavian design. The Taika (magic) dinnerware is designed by two Finnish designers. The designer who did the images to these dinnerware, Klaus Haapaniemi, has said that his style has taken influences from Finnish traditions and Kaleva and also from Slavic and Japanese cultures, for example taking notes from Russian avant-garde.