Labour law wrangling
The "British jobs for British workers" dispute seemed on the brink of a solution, although the deal on offer has been rejected. 
What is interesting to me is not that the compromise plan proposes half the jobs going to British workers, but that the Italian company has accepted that all its workers on this job will get the standard terms and conditions as negotiated in the past by British unions. The company says they were anyway, but few of the protesters believe them.
European case law suggests that the company could be allowed to pay the Italians below the going rate. The European Court of Justice established that precedent in the Laval judgment.
The Latvian construction company, Laval, had been hired to build a school in Sweden. The EU rules say that companies must obey the minimum standards of the host country, such as maximum working hours and the minimum wage. Sweden has no minimum wage, and all such standards are set by agreements between unions and employers. Laval was expected to sign up to these conditions but refused. After a strike and many twists and turns the ECJ ruled the unions were in the wrong. Ever since then the European trade union movement has been asking for the rules to be rewritten, so that foreign companies are made to respect union agreements in host countries, or in that unlovely phrase "an end to social dumping".
As the Italian company is insisting its workers get the British union rate we have to ask why they are doing the job. Sometimes it's because native workers simply won't do the work, or in times of high employment aren't to be found. That's clearly not the case here. It could be because they are better, faster or cheaper. Most people automatically assume it is that it's about money. If the outlines of today's rejected deal become standard practice it could eradicate the main motive for shipping in workers from other parts of the EU.
But it will also increase the appetite for a new look at the existing laws. The Socialists in the European Parliament say: "We must maintain the internal market and the freedom of movement of capital and labour - the principles that have given unparalleled prosperity and are key to our countries' recovery from the financial downturn.
"The recent European Court judgments make it necessary that we have clarity on the current legal situation and within this context there is a need to review the Posted Workers' Directive, in order to avoid social dumping.
We urge the European Commission to be proactive in the midst of this economic downturn, particularly in relation to its effects on workers and their families."
Will the British government push for this, as it has hinted? I would be extremely surprised. Despite the noises from Downing Street diplomats haven't been asked to build any alliances or work up any proposals. And it will not escape the notice of other EU countries that it is always the British government that is in the forefront of the fight-back if anyone dares propose extending workers' rights.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~44~RS~)
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The shipped in workers are being put up in barges, and bussed to and from the site etc - presumably these 'services' are not being provided free of charge?
Although I notice that they are bussed back and forth for lunch - an hour and a half away from work, but are only actually given a half-hour allowance for a lunch break - so having to make up an hour a day elsewhere...
With out the full picture we can only guess...
It is right to discourage the entire practice for all but the most specialist labour - as such workers are clearly deprived of having a 'family life'.
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What? A UK socialist-liberal Labour Government actually look after the rights of British Workers at the expense of cheap labour available from elsewhere within the European Labour Market.
I'd say the chances were somewhere between none and no hope!
The only way that British Workers are going to be able to protect their own jobs is to revolt against British Government of whatever political hue as the Government gets its taxed income regardless of who does the work, Employers get the work done more cheaply by employing immigrant workers and, finally, immigrant workers get paid more money than they would if they worked back in their own countries - if they could find work there.
The reality is that this great socialist experiment is like the Comprehensive Education System that replaced the Tertiary Education System of the 1944 Education Act. Some socialist-liberal thinkers thought that splitting children according to academic capabilities was a bad thing and that putting bright children with the less bright children would generally raise educational standards.
So they introduced Comprehensive Education . . . .
Result, the brighter kids have been dumbed down or have managed to keep their heads above water simply though their aptitude. The less-bright children have remained dumb if not, indeed, become more dumb as regards their abilities to read, write and do simple mathematics are concerned - although they will all tell you, word-for-word what their human rights are!
Putting socialists in charge of government is like putting a vampire in charge of a blood bank - they'll suck all the best there is out of the bank in all sorts of different ways and ignore the consequences to the people who need the benefits of the blood bank.
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If this is not an issue about the foreign workers being paid less the there must have been a very good reason for this particular company having their tender accepted. Five British companies also tendered for this project.
From what I have read, the Italian company had a skilled and PERMANENT workforce. The same qualification may not have been true for the British companies.
The workers at the site in question appear to have walked out on their job, hardly a glowing reference for the British worker.
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Why don't we import more Italians and Portuguese workers to finish the job for the French in Lincolnshire whilst the British are on strike?
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Good luck to the lads taking this action.
Problem is it's 30 years too late.
During that period of time the "free market" has transferred the majority of UK mining and manufacturing jobs overseas.
That's why the country is virtually bust.
That's why all the pension funds and investments are collapsing.
What did Thatcher say ...
"Manufacturing doesn't matter.
The future is in financial services."
OH YEAH !!!
That was a BAD mistake, wasn't it ?
And has New Labour been any better ?
Not a bit.
I'm proud to see someone taking a stand.
GOOD LUCK LADS !
Johnsco
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Mark as you hint, the economics of this do not seem to make sense. Is the company really able to pay the Italian workers the same rates of pay as the British agreed rates. In adddition pay accomodation and transport costs to and from work, appears unlikely to me.
It may be of course that the tactic some times used in sweat shops is apllied. That is the workers have to pay for accomodation, food, transport out of their wages. This is normally above what it actually costs to provide, so ensuring the company can make greater profits. In sweat shops we have heard of excessive numbers of people put up in ordinary houses and then charged large rents by the companies involved. Unfortunately such people are often the most vulnerable in society and do not feel able to complain as they are desperate for a job.
I do not know if that is what has happened here but do not see how the economics of it make sense otherwise. To answer some points, a silly generalisation that all British workers are lazy and or incompetent, is just that. Many of those people demonstrating are apparrently skilled individuals wanting to work.
Still think there is more to come out of this. Glad some in the E.U. and else where are looking to close this loophole.
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News reports of this issue have consistently referred to the italian workers as being part of IREM's workforce.
The implication is that these are not people who have been taken on to do this particular job - but long term employees.
If this is so, then once IREM won the contract it only makes sense for them to use their own people rather than take on, and train, local workers for a one-off job.
If this were not possible, then there would be siginifcant implications for cross-border tendering by EU companies. Could IREM have won the contract on that basis? And, if so, would they have been required to lay off their existing workforce?
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It's the EU and we are all supposed to be in this together.
Now Italian trade unions are beginning to demand British workers there go back home.
The xenophobic British workers have started something ugly. Shame on them.
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"...the compromise plan proposes half the jobs going to British workers..."
I wish to find out more regarding the plan (in its final form) and the legal implications, but if it goes ahead as such it seems to be clearly in breach of EU labour laws that deny the ability to discriminate by nationality in hiring. If so, I intend to file a complaint against the firms involved for discriminatory labour practices.
It seems insane people will be given jobs regardless of their merits, and applied over the whole economy it could be disasterous, especially at a time when we really can't afford inefficiencies.
If the striking workers think they can use illegal actions to force the whole country to roll over and give into protectionism they may be right, but I'll fight them every step of the way. We have come too far to given to this nonsense now.
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I've often wondered about the health and safety implications of having construction workers on a site who are not able to communicate with each other, or with the site manager. There was a recent case where a non-english speaking council worker cut down some protected plants as a result of not understanding English. On a construction site the consequences could be far more severe.
Is it a requirement that all site managers in England can speak English? If some/many managers only speak Italian, then presumably it is far safer to have a full Italian speaking workforce.
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Mark,
You write;
"the compromise plan proposes half the jobs going to British workers".
This is isn't quite right I think, and is at the heart of the misunderstanding.
Actually the proposal is that half (the unions say it's 25% actually) of the jobs will be offered on the open Bristish labour market, ON BRITISH TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
The proposal does NOT reserve these jobs for British passport holders. Presumably any EU citizen can apply for them, including indeed Italians not already contracted to IREM.
Certainly the dispute is about the Britsih unions trying to control the terms and the conditions on the Lindsey site.
But the unions are not seeking to deny Italian workers jobs, nor reserve them for UK passport holders. They are simply opposing the "posted workers" directives which have the effect of allowing a company to refuse to offer jobs on the local labour market.
Unfortunately the whole media is now using the phrase "going to Bristish workers".
This is very misleading and will surely lead to numerous off the point postings here and elsewhere on xenophobic lines.
(Practically nobody seems to read others' posts except hopefully perhaps you? )
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Whatever the law says , it is morally wrong for British workers to be out of work while workers are brought in from abroad to fill vacancies. " Charity " must begin at home, British workers must take precedence over foreign workers at all times. It is fair enough if there is no British worker availiable to do the job , then employ foreign labour ; otherwise it must not be allowed, whatever the mandarins of the EU say to the contrary. For once this dreadful government must take a stand and put the rights of British citizens before all else. The strikers are right and I wish them well in their fight for a just solution which protects their right to work in their own country.
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Mark,
Where does the boundary lie between 'patriotism' and 'xenophobia' ? May I humbly suggest that both these terms are now urgently in need of redefinition.
My own offerings would be...
Xenophobia
... a fear of finding one's self unemployed, (with the consequent loss of income and the likely collateral loss of home, family and self respect) due to the actions of foreign multinational companies.... Whereas...
Patriotism
... a greater loyalty shown to a set of rules laid down by an unelected foreign body than that owed to citizens of one's country.
That in essence is where we are: where we go from here I hesitate to think
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If an attempt is made, to resolve this dispute by offering to hire a certain number of " British only" workers , then surely the employers would be in breach of EU and UK law . By virtue of discriminating against EU nationals who happen to live nearby and are seeking to find work.
Would the Department for work and pensions be obliged then to embark on a lawsuit against the Government . Or would someone have to make a complaint. I'm up for it if they need me.
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Amazing amount of vitriol poured on the so-called 'wildcat'-strikers and their 'Brit workers for Brit jobs' campaign by quite a few pro-EU Commentators on here over recent days.
Today the EU Parliament announces MEPs are to discuss tightening all contracts etc involving cross-border workers.
Apparently, it has dawned on the largely unmandated parasites in Brussels Parliament that their supposedly egalitarian employment legislation may be a root cause of the European-wide industrial disquiet during the economic downturn.
Also today: A couple of TUC economists have estimated that with the additional costs of Shipping the Italians in, berthing fees, transport to and from the Total site plus meals and basic services the Italian contract is simply a financial disaster!
Unless of course, the highest single 'cost' factor, the workers, are not receiving the agreed pay/insurance-scales!?
How can this be possible? Well, as an illustration of what a contract may mean: In Finland 12 months ago it was discovered that whilst the Finn Government had agreed a set pay-scale with a large number of foreign nationals employed to work rebuilding some docks, these workers' actual pay was barely 1 Euro-80cents per hour! It seems the foreign sub-contractor Agency involved simply signed on the dotted line for their workforce and then deducted from each worker's pay-packet before they got them! This lasted for 2 months before a Finn newspaper revealed the scandal. It really is that easy.
I am not suggesting anything so underhand is going on at the Total site.
However, I am sure I and the suddenly concerned MEPs are not alone in wondering just how European-based Companies can make a profit and afford the local employee-contract if it is taken at local 'work-site' face value!?
Over the last 3 or so decades Europe has become used to the term 'out-sourcing' meaning EU-based Businesses agreeing contracts with Asian/Far East companies whose lower paid workers have enabled cheaper services (we are surely all familiar with the phone Bank employee in Delhi or Karachi informing us of our account details whilst totally unable to identify our local towns when we query withdrawls!). That there is cheap labour all over the world is a certainty: Whether, within the EU nations there is sufficient variation of pay-scale to allow the internal-market reversal of 'out-sourcing' to occur, is I suspect something that will be thoroughly tested as the economic downturn deepens within Europe?
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Mark,
"Sometimes it's because native workers simply won't do the work, or in times of high employment aren't to be found. That's clearly not the case here."
Well I am not sure. Plainly it is not the case now but it would have been 8 or 9 months ago. I have no idea when the tender process took place or when the contract was awarded but it's a racing certainty that the economic circumstance were very different then and, once the contract is awarded, it's a done deal.
I am with Man of Milan at #8 on this one. This dispute has opened a nasty can of worms and there is worse to come.
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Manfrom Milan and Comment8 that '..supposed to be all Europe together.. Italians now demanding GB workers be sent home.. British workers have started something.. shame on them.."
Hmm! You have to be very careful in these straightened times when you start to throw mud.
Even the briefest glance at the EU Employment statistics for UK and Italian free exchange of workers in the last 4 years is revelatory:
Between 2004 and 2007 some 112,000 Italians took jobs in the UK.
In the same period less than 20,000 Brits moved to Italy for occupational reasons.
Of course, the chances are vastly more Italians seeking work speek English than Brits speaking Italian, but, Italy like so any EU nations has done very well out of the supposed free-exchange with the UK.
Sending the Brits home would be a tragedy but UK could absorb those numbers: Not sure Italy could do the same!?
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Re post 11, Newtownresident, that was my understanding as well. From listening to the news it appears the Unions are putting an offer to the strikers recommeNding they take it. Not sure if it is the same offer or if it has been improved -
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threnodio
This situation was always going to arise sooner or later. Now the can is open we can find a lasting solution to the problem hopefully one that it actually fair this time.
Hopefully this will awake the English from their Political Slumber, Pro-EU comentators are right to fear this.
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It would be good to know more of the context in which this contract was awarded.
If it was through a call for tender - as threnodio suggests - the British unions shouldn't have a leg to stand on. This happens in all walks of life on large contracts; You win some, you lose some.
I have been victim of a company going bust due to being undercut by a competitor. We were more efficient, but the competitor was cheaper. Such is life. Maybe my present employer will win contracts off other companies, who knows?
I can sympathise with the individuals who find themselves unemployed (been there, done that), but still find the nearly-xenophobic rhetoric totally out of order. Either way, reserving positions for Brits would be against the "Statutory Code of Practice on Racial Equality in Employment" (thanks T-R-T) wouldn't it?
#11.
I read the posts. Well... most of them. ;)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"I am with Man of Milan at #8 on this one. This dispute has opened a nasty can of worms and there is worse to come."
Me too. And I believe this was Mardell's point in covering the story. Good journalism, Mr M.
I wonder, when we look back on this period, whether people will say that the EU was undermined by nationalism, or by the collapse of the financial sector as a respectable part of society.
People here have commented that giving the socialists the power over society is like giving vampires the keys to a blood bank.
Now that may or may not be true, but what is clearly true is that the financial community has given the socialists power. I mean, worldwide. They have just handed the reigns over, willingly.
I commented on this point in private correspondence, right at the start of the financial crisis, when King Paulson of Goldman Saxony suggested that the American taxpayer make good the losses of his class.
The financial community has gone to the people and has said "Hey, guess what? We blew all your money! Nevermind, we are just going to talk to "your' politicians and make sure you have to work even harder to pay for our continued management of "your" society."
That was never going to fly. I still can't believe the financial class did this. It isn't just snubbing their nose at working people, it is slapping them in the face with rotten fish. It is poking them in the eye with a sharp fork.
How can we expect anything except growing industrial turmoil and social unrest?
The financial leaders in Europe and the world have declared themselves unfit to govern. At the same time, they declare that we must all work to pay for their RIGHT to govern.
It cannot end well.
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I usually sympathise fully with workers against their employers, but this time I can't help myself of feeling uneasy about these strikes.
And it's not just the fact that there is this feeling of "away with them foreigners" attitude... This type of attitude is not found only in Britain.
What's really sad about this story is that British workers for years (or decades) have endured one of the worst deals in the whole of the EU (longer working hours, less benefits, bad training)... yet what got them walking out en masse and vent their anger against their employers in all corners of the country was the presence of 300 foreign workers.
Denials of xenophobic attitude are just hard to believe in such a politicised atmosphere. I believe that there are many motives why the British workers should be angry with their employers and that this has been brewing for many years. But why did they wait until now? Why didn't they stand up for their rights before, like the French, the Italian, the German workers usually do?
There is this stereotype in the UK about continental workers being lazy and looking only to strike, but no one seems to bother now. Why is that?
Everyone siding with the strikes is assuming that the foreign workers are getting a bad deal, compared to what the Brits would get. What if they really had better skills and were more hard working than the Brits?
And if you're about to say "But PIGS can't be more hard working, or more skilled, than Brits are!" sit on your hands for a while, then go and check the meaning of "xenophobic" and "racist" in the dictionary, and then formulate your comments.
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Re 19. At 2:53pm on 04 Feb 2009, WhiteEnglishProud wrote:
"Hopefully this will awake the English from their Political Slumber, Pro-EU comentators are right to fear this."
I'm afraid they're just getting from political slumber to xenophobic sleepwalking... in the interest of some political groupings we all know of.
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#19 - WhiteEnglishProud
In the sense that it was a predictable response to the recession, you are absolutely right.
I am not sure what pro-EU commentators have to fear from the waking English unless, to a person, they are going to abandon the 'all for one and one for all' fraternal mentality.
Of course, if everyone is going to take to the streets in defence of jobs which were beneath their dignity 12 months ago, we are all doomed.
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12. At 1:55pm on 04 Feb 2009, kaybraes wrote:
"It is fair enough if there is no British worker availiable to do the job , then employ foreign labour ; otherwise it must not be allowed."
That's an interesting proposal Kaybraes, but there are some practical problems to it.
Let me give you a simple example: hundreds of thousands of Brits would be more than happy to coach the English football team (and even happier when they see the pay check for this job). Are you suggesting Fabio Capello should go, and start trying all those candidates for the job?
The fact that many British workers are "available" for a job, doesn't guarantee that they are "able" to do that job.
How can a company tell that it's time to start considering the "foreign" applicants?
Are you suggesting, trying all the Brits first, even those clearly under-qualified for the job, and then start with the foreigners?
The Italian construction firm will probably use material and techniques that the Italian workers are familiar with, but the Brits may have never seen before. I have lived in the UK for 5 years now and been to many different houses and flats, and I must admit that the quality of building is pretty low here. I have also had plumbers and other type of workers doing some work (all of them Brits by the way) with pretty poor results, compared to workers from other places, such as Italy, for example.
And in the case of the Total construction contract, we are talking about industrial building which needs to be done quite carefully for health and safety issues.
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threnodio
You have long professed to believe or hope that the average English / British person isn't as against the EU as is protrayed in the Media and by other E.U countries. I honestly believe you are about to find out you were very much mistaken.
The E.U and it's socialist policies will take as much if not more of trhe brunt of the publics anger over the financial crisis as the Labour Government and GB in particular.
There will inevetably be a rise in xenaphobia and mistrust of foriegn companies. (I am not happy about this) but in order to rebuilt a more robust British ecconomy we will have to become more self-sufficient than we currently are. (I know this smacks of protectionism but the alternative is unthinkable)
I believe that if these sort of strikes continue the Concervative Party may actually grow some balls and bring the European question back to the table in mainstream Politics.
I can honestly say that I have never heard so much Anti-EU opinion in my home town which is in Kent.
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WEP
Have you joined threnodio and become an Immortal walking amongst us mere mortals who have to wait for moderation?
ROTFL
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Regarding whether Italy can take the 100 odd thousand "workers".
I think its rather the UK that needs these "workers", or at least as much as they need their jobs. Also, I doubt they are really comparable to normal "workers"
Most likely, they are working in specialized industries such as finance, trade, textile, fashion, gastronomy.
But if everything fails...Italy's unemployment rate has been among the lowest in its recent history at 6.5% so I suppose a labour market of 30 million can take about 120k, who have an additional skill that most Italians don't have. They speak English.
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One of the point's that is being missed is the language problem that we are importing with this. They will employ British workers to work in Britain, -Great - but what language is going to be used on the site?
From the interview with the Italian worker - who couldn't speak english, I would guess that the answer is Italian !!
Now that would mean they would employ only workers who are fluent in italian.
This follows on from a company advertising for production line manager who spoke polish as all the line staff were polish.
It does come to something when in order to get a job in your own country you have to speak a different language!
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Looks like the last facade of "New Labour" has been stripped away to reveal the old socialist mindset.
What will happen if the Italian government makes a decree (and they are known to make decrees!) to return to its old policy of making every foreign resident have a resident and work permit in order to remain in the country and work. This country could be faced with having several hundred more unemployed people claiming benefits in a very short space of time!
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Just saw the ITV news, interview one of the Portuguese workers. He did tell the reporter he and the others were being paid subtantially less than the agreed Industry rate. If true some one is telling porkies, may explain why the company want to settle the matter.
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#27 - WhiteEnglishProud
I could not agree more. There is nothing more unedifying than the sight of people abandoning their principles in the rush for self-preservation. This is not a criticism of the activists. I would be royally peed off if I thought my job was being nicked by anyone.
I do, however, think the unions in particular should be asking themselves why the contract went overseas in the first place. It is all well and good these guys protesting about their jobs now but why was a British company not in a position to tender competitively when the job was on offer? Couldn't be British working practices when there were plenty of jobs about now could it?
#28 - Menedemus
All bloggers are equal - just some are more equal than others :-)
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The unions have no backbone any more, if it were not for the workers they would have ignored this situation.
The unions are hand in glove with the Labour Party, the workers pay for the unions to act like nodding dogs to their Labour masters.
There is a vast difference in the union I knew and those of today.
The bankers got protected when they gambled away our money, the workers will pay for generations in tax, we have the best of workers, now we need the best to represent them.
The EU (brown & mandleson) step out of the way the workers deserve so much better.
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threnodio @ #33 (Part 2)
I am converted blogger and I am now a believer! ;o)
psssst! May I have an acolytes reduced moderation time please?
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It is right to point the finger at unscrupulous and wholly undemocratic elements climbing on the 'Brits for Brit jobs' bandwagon to suit their own ugly purposes.
However, it is also necessary to reflect on the failure of the mainstream UK Political Parties to pick-up on and reflect the anxieties, genuine or otherwise, of the ordinary British Worker.
Allied to this National shortcoming in the body-politic must be added the blinkered MEPs whose one-size-fits-all approach to the supposed 'free exchange of labour' within the EU has led to serious imbalances between those nations 'importing' workers and those 'exporting' an under-used/valued workforce.
It is a classic of the EU to attempt to blame the 'wildcat striker' for not accepting the EU rationale whilst saying nothing about the exploitation of the labour free exchange market to allow almost a 'renditioned workforce' to be set-up: Afterall, they are shipped en masse, not allowed out of their billet and transported to and from the site under close supervision at all times!
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Law of Which Country Should Prevail.
Hmmmm.
I see UK and USA prosecute people locally for offences abroad.
So, can Saudi Arabia flog your wife for a too revealing a top she wore last night and you for drinking alcohol?
Can you be extradited for it?
Any international lawyers reading?
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To WhiteEnglishProud (27):
Oh, please isolating doesn't help Britain at all. No country, no superblock in the world be it USA or EU can maintain its highly prosperous and developed life style without trading and co-operating with others.
My advice for the British would be... Stop shooting at your own foot!
[Sometimes in the 90s]
Gordon: We are the leading center of finance and business in Europe!
Tony: Yai!
Gordon: Should we join this Euro, get the ECB located to London and became permanently the New York of Europe?
Tony and Gordon: No! That would only make Britain better and more secure place to do business and make us more prosperous! We won't have any of that!
[Sometimes in the 90s]
Tony: We are going to become a knowledge based economy!
Gordon: Should we give more funding to our schools and make the education system best of the world!
Tony and Gordon: No! That would only be a sensible thing to do and lead to nation to become more developed and prosperous! We won't have any of that!
[Sometimes in the 80s]
Secretary: Mam, what do we do with this EEC?
Margaret: No! No! No!
Secretary: Mam, what do we do with our industries?
Margaret: No! No! No!
I'm sorry, but you really have to stop shooting your own foot constantly. Because UK traditionally has been both industrious, developed and prosperous country you have had the luxury on shooting yourself so many times in your own leg, but sometime even you can't afford it anymore.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
As a 'laissez-faire' capitalist, I'm all for open borders, free flow of products, services and labour, etc.
For this, however, we don't need a 'European Union'. Especially not one with its meddling minutiae of socialistic laws and regulation.
I'm quite sanguine about 'foreign workers' working on British projects. I've worked on many overseas projects where the local workforce could not provide the right service and/or at the right price. Companies should have the right to choose who they want to hire. If British unions don't like it, they can work elsewhere.
I am mainly amused, however, by the Law of Unintended Consequences as clearly seen in this case after our adoption of the EU strait-jacket and Brown's stupid proclamation of "British jobs for British workers".
Oh that we had some 'British brains for British politicians'.
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Having read all through the previous comments (that's why I like to get in a bit earlier - it's quicker!), a thought occurs:
If you were employed in the UK by a British company that won a contract in, say, Bulgaria, would you expect to be paid at local rates?
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I am truly saddened and bemused by this whole episode.
Saddened to see the "British jobs for British workers" placards waved around by people who no doubt thoroughly enjoy a visit to a local Indian or Bengali curry house, Chinese takeaway or Italian pizza restaurant, are happy to eat caulifowers picked in England by Hungarians, have their plumbing fixed by Poles and their hospitals cleaned by Spaniards and Portuguese. What about the Brits who might want to do those jobs? No, they only care about THEIR jobs!
And then, as I understand it the French company TOTAL left it to an American company to advertise the contract and undertake the selection of the company making the best offer. The point being that it wasn't a matter of individuals being recruited to do various jobs but of a COMPANY. What was that company supposed to do once it had secured the contract - ignore its own staff and set about recruiting new people?
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#36 - ikamaskeip
". . . not allowed out of their billet and transported to and from the site under close supervision at all times!"
Detaining someone against their will is not a union matter, it is a criminal offence. If that is actually happening, it is a flagrant violation of the immigrant workers civil rights. I imagine there must be a clause which renders the contract voidable if the law is broken during it's execution. It might be much better for all concerned if the union where to champion their cause.
#35 - Menedemus
Did you have a figure in mind? (Whoops, did I say that?)
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threnodio (43)
As 90% of UK Taxpayers are resident in England, I wondered if a cheque drawn on the new Royal Bank of England (formerly known as the Royal Bank of Scotland!) would do - just name your price.
The English tax-payers will fund it no doubt or else we'll have Scottish Wildcat Stikes breaking out all over the shop!
ROTFL
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43. threnodio:
"#36 - ikamaskeip
". . . not allowed out of their billet and transported to and from the site under close supervision at all times!"
Detaining someone against their will is not a union matter, it is a criminal offence. "
I think that you'll find that they are choosing to, or being advised to, keep out of the way of the angry banner-waving crowd.
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I see the BBC allows threnodio to jump the queue again.
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I have to say that the reports I've seen suggest that this is not a case of 'red robbos' or 'derek hattons' or 'ken livingstones' but rather a case of people who've had enough. The UK building standards are very tough and the district surveyors and health & safety police them pretty well, and most will tell you that it is the lower standards of many EU country workers that mean work is condemned and has to be redone. It seems that the Olympic site has suffered from poor build quality and the cost savings of using imported 'experts' have been lost by having to redo a lot of work, this time using UK workers.
I would not deny that there are a lot of cowboy builders in the UK as I come from a building family and have seen many bad things, but I've seen just as bad in other EU countries that I've worked in. As for plumbers, thankfully most UK ones know a bit more than French plumbers, and electrical standards in many older EU houses are appalling compared to UK older houses. My father was an electrician and I've never ceased to be amazed at the dangerous installations I've seen over here in the EU.
My conclusion is that this company Total was simply going for cheapest price using the cheapest labour and not giving a monkeys uncle about the quality of the work they were doing. No doubt backed by a posse of high paid lawyers who would claim every fault was due to poor specifications and inadequate management. What has always amazed me is how these company's get away with it, this time however the low grade management and greedy contractor have been exposed by workers fed up with being stitched for years by these contracting company's and then replaced by a cheaper alternative that mostly can't speak the language (and can't read the specifications) and further insulted by claims that they are better workers. One should remember that often most contract workers are self employed or on time limited contracts, which means if they're no good they don't survive!
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36. At 7:29pm on 04 Feb 2009, ikamaskeip wrote:
" ...not allowed out of their billet and transported to and from the site under close supervision at all times!"
That sounds like false imprisonment to me and I hope the Police are investigating if there is any reasonable suspicion that it it true.
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Re 30. At 5:55pm on 04 Feb 2009, diverjohn46 wrote:
"It does come to something when in order to get a job in your own country you have to speak a different language!"
I'm surprised that you're surprised. For years now UK and USA companies have their call-centres based in India... for some strange reason all the workers there must have a good command of English, which is not their native language.
The same happens for the thousands of people employed in all English speaking tourist destinations.
The knowledge of languages other than your own is considered an important skill all over the world... except in the UK where it has been scrapped from the mandatory GSCE curriculum.
It's time for the UK open up and for its people to acquire skills, if it wants to survive in a global world, rather than curling-up defensively in the fear of foreigners and demanding that the government restort to old fashioned protectionism.
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Re 47: Buzet23
Anyone who's lived in the UK and some other country in the EU (excluding the "new" guys) knows that you must be joking about the quality of build.
Given that you know so much about comparative building quality, I have some issues that puzzle me since my moving to the UK. Maybe you can expand on the following
- Water mixers are considered a luxury in the UK while a standard in all other countries I know in Europe.
- In the UK it seems that you can't have electric plugs in a bathroom, is this a health and safety issue? (How many people died on the continent last year from having electric outlets in their bathrooms? Or does the UK lawmaker have such a low esteem of his compatriot's IQ?)
- Tiling is something for the "rich" in the UK, while "average" people happily live with carpets and linoleum in their bathrooms and kitchens. Is this higher standard?
- Insulation and fixtures in most houses are ridiculous. Double glazing, which is standard even in southern countries like Italy and Spain, is still considered something worth mentioning when houses are on sale in the UK.
- Proper wooden flooring, a standard in most houses I've seen on the continent, is another "luxury" item in the UK and an almost "standard" one on the continent.
- Do you consider chipboard separation higher quality than thing brick walls?
- Do you consider the "guillotine" windows used almost all over in the UK as higher quality than the "standard" (I can't find any other word!) windows used elsewhere?
- Can you explain the need for adapters to use a standard RJ11 for telephone/broadband? Why not move to straight RJ11?
- Do you consider the asymmetric UK standard power plug more efficient than the symmetric continental one (which is now standard CE, used in all countries except the UK)? I mean, these are fused plugs... the electric installations must be quite unsafe, if you need an extra fuse in the plug.
- Never mind the amount of copper wasted on the massive UK plugs.
- Why do the houses in the UK *must* have fire alarm (which often set themselves off for no reason), whereas this is pretty much an optional almost everywhere else? Does it have something to do that a UK house will go up in smoke in minutes (board and wood burns very easily) while brick/cement based houses are more resilient?
I have other questions regarding those higher quality British Standards, but I'll stop here for now :-)
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Re 42: greypolyglot "What about the Brits who might want to do those jobs?"
With all due respect to English cuisine, does anyone in their mind want a British bloke to bake your pizza or cook your curry? Maybe we should revive the old joke about the German lover, the Italian policeman, the French mechanic, the British worker etc.
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Re 31. At 6:12pm on 04 Feb 2009, finbarthesage wrote:
"What will happen if the Italian government makes a decree (and they are known to make decrees!) to return to its old policy of making every foreign resident have a resident and work permit in order to remain in the country and work."
I would almost bet that this is pretty much the case now. Everybody, including Italian natives, must have a "residence" in Italy. Foreigners must also get a work permit. EU citizens are not considered foreigners and are exempted of the work permit, but must register for pension and social security purposed (just like you need a NINO in the UK).
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@50 GiantGrouper
I really liked your post and agree with all your observations. Its almost like North Korea, where the locals actually believe they are the best country in the world.
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In an economic crisis, everybody is affected. These workers may complain about this and that, may be right or wrong, but from the outside, this looks like "Xenophobia".
Everyone has benefit from the EU. People traveled to other countries without the need of visas. People worked in other countries without the need of work permits and now that "every country" is facing an economic crisis Xenophobia and Racism re surges once again. This is an old story, it has happened before, it's happening now and it's about time it doesn't happen again.
It seems that for some people it is a lot easier to blame foreigners for their own problems.
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#50, lacerniagigante,
With the exception of what you call "water mixers", what is this as I've not seen a water mixer in Belgium, and UK plugs every other point is down to personal preference of either the owner or the builder. It is clear you have never read building regulations in the UK or you would not have made those assumptions.
As for EU plugs being standard, they are not, the earth pin varies in location between EU countries meaning some plugs do not work in another country because the centre earth pin is not there but on the side. The need for a UK fuse is more historic but it is very useful as you can fuse an appliance accurately in its plug according to its consumption e.g. 3 amp, 5 amp, 13 amp which is a lot safer than relying on a 16A or 20A trip in the consumer unit.
As for electricity in the bathroom it is allowed as long as there is a separately fused spur, and a special trip in the CU that is ultra sensitive, remember water and electricity don't mix, maybe that's different where you hail from?
As for "Proper wooden flooring", older UK houses have real wooden flooring, not MDF click clack parquet, I know which I prefer. Tiling is also a preference but I do like my own ceramic tiles in my house in preference to the wood substitutes I've seen here in the EU. PS. Most older Belgium houses have solid brick floors so parquet is the only option for a wooden floor.
Fire alarms are a legal obligation here in Belgium.
Finally "Can you explain the need for adapters to use a standard RJ11 for telephone/broadband? Why not move to straight RJ11?", you obviously have never lived in Belgium as the Belgacom plug is a huge round object, and probably many other EU countries also don't use an RJ11 except for telecoms.
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@50, lacerniagigante
The power plugs are one of the things that are actually better in the UK than in the rest of Europe.
They are big and ugly, but they (1) have a ground pin, missing on many standard power plugs, (2) due to their asymmetry, they are polarised, which is good and (3) the local fuse is actually quite nice; when something in the kitchen short circuits, it'll usually leave the refrigerator and the freezer on.
Asignificant part of the "proper wooden flooring" in continental houses are actually laminate flooring, which I wouldn't call "proper wood".
Finally, a mandatory fire alarm is also a very good idea. If every house on the continent would have one, it would probably save quite a number of lives.
I think I agree on the other issues you mentioned, though.
This is starting to get seriously off-topic...
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Re 56: At 08:33am on 05 Feb 2009, JohaMe wrote:
"This is starting to get seriously off-topic..."
I agree, but for once it's not a war or words about me and eu. :-)
Mark, could you spare one day some time on an evil-EU "standardification" article?
Allow me one more comment:
"(1) have a ground pin, missing on many standard power plugs,"
Why put it if you don't need it. You'll notice that many plugs in the UK (say on a mobile's phone adaptor) have a "fake" earth pin.
"(2) due to their asymmetry, they are polarised, which is good"
One of the features of Alternate Current is that it eliminates polarity. That's something of a genius, but I guess it wasn't Newton, nor Maxwell, nor Faraday that came up with the idea. (Maybe Ampère or Edison? ;-)
" (3) the local fuse is actually quite nice; when something in the kitchen short circuits, it'll usually leave the refrigerator and the freezer on."
Unless it's the refrigerator or the freezer that's short-circuiting, in which case you'll have to move the whole lot to reach the fuse :-) Also, according to high safety standards, things should not be short-circuiting randomly in your kitchen.
Anyway, it's not all bad. For example, I quite like the switch that (almost) all UK plugs come with and I would advocate it (as an optional of course) for use on the continent.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
51. lacerniagigante:
"Re 42:
With all due respect to English cuisine, does anyone in their mind want a British bloke to bake your pizza or cook your curry?"
I take your point but I've been to "Chinese" and "Italian" restaurants in the US where there was not one member of staff (kitchen included) who could possibly be of the appropriate ethnicity. :-)
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To JohaMe (56):
I would say the Schuko, CEE 7/7 standard, used in continental Europe except Ireland, UK, Cyprus, Malta and Italy is better than the British socket.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko
The Europlug of course looks like its less safe, but then again its intended to be used only with low power devices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europlug
Of course there is then the future international standard that for some reason hasn't been implemented.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60906-1
Of course with modern fuses and electrical protections I haven't had a fuse blow for a while. The circuitry cuts the power of when it senses an shortcut and then just turn the switch back on.
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Re 55: Buzet23
Thanks for the clarifications. Very useful, next time I'll look for a plug for my electric shaver (which, unfortunately, is made in China conforming to CEE standards and does not come with a UK-electric shaver pin...) I'll think about how safe I am :D
"you obviously have never lived in Belgium as the Belgacom plug is a huge round object, and probably many other EU countries also don't use an RJ11 except for telecoms."
I must admit Belgium is not my forte. I've passed through many times, in total I stopped 1/2 hour in Brugge for coffee, 5 minutes in Bruxelles to get petrol and a snapshot of the EU stuff (that part of the city wasn't too charming), and 2 hours in Liège (to buy food at the market there). I may spend a couple of days later in the spring in Bruxelles on my way back from a Netherlands mission.
By the way, I love UK-type wooden floors, but not the stuff that they're covered with (some carpet of the fake parquet you're talking about). Similar flooring is found elsewhere, in older central Europe and northern Italy older build for example, but unfortunately it's very hard to maintain and make look nice nowadays. So modern builders will do a brick/concrete layer instead, which is not very nice (but it allows passing pipes underneath the floor for heating, rather than wall elements which is a nice idea).
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#50 lacerniagigante
At the risk of being ruled off-topic, and leaving aside the various errors in your generalisations ...
the common names for window types are casement (hinged) and sash (corded) - but I do prefer your "guillotine"!
In my experience, British plugs are better quality and easier to rewire than most of those I encounter at the other end of the continent They're also a lot easier to label.
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The water mixer he mentioned is probably the british sinks, that have two different water taps, one hot and one cold..water mixer probably refers to a single tap where one can in fact, MIX, the water to the desired temperature.
Also, although I've been living in italy for the most part..I've used the Schuko plug, not the Italian one. However, every household has converters that make it pretty easy.
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"British jobs for British workers"
They really haven’t thought this one through, have they? If this idea is followed through to its logical conclusion then just about every building site across the country will come to a standstill while we get rid of those who are a part of the UK’s very large resident Irish workforce. I wonder how many Irishmen were in the crowd at Scunthorpe?
What next, English jobs for English workers, Lincolnshire jobs for Lincolnshire workers?
Is this the rebirth of parochialism?
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#46 - greypolyglot
I really don't know what technical glitch, if any, is fast tracking my comments but it is nothing I am doing. I can't keep posting explanations and apologies for something that is not my doing. I am being very careful not to take advantage by posting provocatively but if people really are concerned, they should ask the BBC. I may even shop myself in preference to fielding further comment.
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To threnodio (65):
I have always thought that the reason why your and SuffolkBoy2 comments are displayed directly is because your ratio of poster comments versus moderated and deleted comments is over the threshold where the system just publishes them. The other reason could be that somebody has taken a liking of you both and as an affection of love has given this splendid gift for you.
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Jukka_Rohila
I was not advicating Isolation
But since you meantion it surely it could be argued that Free Trade whilst making boom times long also increases the depth of slumps due to the inabilty of the world to regulate Multi national trading.
I stand by the fact the the UK does need to become more self sufficient (note i do not say totally or completely)
We as individuals need to do this as well the average Britain has long relied on cheap credit to fund there lifestyle in this we also need to change. Living with in our means is the right road to recovery. Not borrowing more to prop up a useless government.
As you say we need to stop shooting our selves in the foot.
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65. threnodio:
"I really don't know what technical glitch, if any, is fast tracking my comments but it is nothing I am doing. "
Jukka #66 probably has it right. The Beeb just likes you more than me. Take it as a compliment. I was moaning about them not you. :-)
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I'm not at all sure why my #58 broke the house rules so I've toned down one or two bits :-
#56, JohaMe,
It is sort of off topic in one way but not in another, one of the greatest misconceptions I've encountered is concerning standards and harmonisation of qualifications. They are often used to neuter down the EU directives and many country's are expert at that.
In the case in point here we have 'Total' which being French probably has French managers which are almost invariably' only good at pulling a defeat from a potential victory'. In the UK you have politicians that are 'unfit for purpose'. It's claimed that the US choose the contractors which means it was for the cheapest price with standards and qualifications an after thought. Putting these three together explains why the usually docile long suffering contractor workers here got upset. As I mentioned earlier these guys are almost certainly either self employed or on short term contracts so its not in their interest to be militarised, they simply got very 'annoyed' at the duplicity.
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"I wonder, when we look back on this period, whether people will say that the EU was undermined by nationalism, or by the collapse of the financial sector as a respectable part of society."
When we look back on this period people will say that the EU was undermined by its own inherent flaws. That undermining will be helped on the way by the fault lines in the euro that are becoming increasing apparent to all but the most blinkered.
And whilst being by inclination and background an internationalist, I am struggling to understand the sense in shifting people, and goods for that matter, around the world when we are supposed to be worrying about global warming.
If global warming is indeed a fact, despite the snowy scene I can see from my window, shouldn't the agenda be about each country becoming as self-sufficient as possible?
And in case I am thought to be barking up a lonely tree Stephanie Flanders, the BBC's economic editor, points out that "national self-sufficiency" was advocated by the pin-up economist of the left, Maynard Keynes.
Of course, such national self-sufficiency would throw up some very fundamental problems not least about the size of population each country could sustain and how the current levels could be reduced. It would also probably mean a reduction in the standard of living of those of us in the West.
However, if global warming is advancing as quickly as is claimed those hard decisions will surely have to be faced.
And by the way, do the Italian workers on the Lindsey site pay UK tax and NI contributions? If not, why not?
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This sets a dangerous precedent.
We hear continually of UK contractors being shipped all over Europe for their flexible working practices and worl ethic (not to mention secondment under the social security treaty so massively less SS payments by the employers).
Just a matter of time before the blockades start in France.
PS an expatriate tends to be implicitly better worker since by definition you have a person flexible enough to work away from home and they are encumbered by less private distractions
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50 lacerniagigante
This is a case of deja vu for me, as the case of the water mixers came up in conversation quite recently, where I was treated with the kind of scorn that is reserved for anyone advocating Britain going metric. If there is anything I found that sets an englishman off its the questioning of the recieved wisdom of having two taps rather than a mixer. I have a dual nationality and have lived in Britain and other european countrys an this never ceases to amaze me.
Two taps
1) One scolds your hand.
2) The other freezes it.
3) You mix the water toghether until you find optimal temperature
4) If you get it wrong you have to pull the plug and start again (perhaps exacerbating Britains annual summer water shortage? I dont know)
And new house after new house insists on this archaic equipment being installed. Personally I'm not bothered about it now, but I still find it a curious practice (and I'm half English...therefore european) I think the British like doing it the hard way. Maybe like metric they like to do things that has a human element in it. Why for the life of me a long and painfull process of 'getting the water right' is preferred to say a longer process to say creating a dish right dish I will never quite understand. But there again I dont understand why Italian cioach drivers insist on packing you into Bus when the entrance to the arrivals terminal is only 10 metres away from the plane.
I think the word is idiosyncracy.
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I would like to know what it should be done with the 150 british not skilled workers working for IREM in Ravena , Italy?
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#67 - WhiteEnglishProud
Something close to self sufficiency is a laudable objective - or at least the ability to manage it in the event of a national emergency.
The big drawback has been the economic pressure arising from globalisation. There does not seem a lot of point in people labouring away in dark tunnels to produce coal when you can dig it of a dirty great hole in Australia and ship it round the world for less money. I would rather eat Welsh lamb than New Zealand if I could afford it. It all comes down to money.
What I do object to, however, is imported fresh produce when some of the finest arable land in Europe is being turned over to theme parks and golf courses. I may be a euro enthusiast but I am no fan of the CAP. Grow local, buy fresh is my motto.
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daniel_IT
It depends on one thing were the jobs the have openly advertised locally and was there and open and fair recruitment process?
if Yes then they have fairly won their jobs and have a right to them.
if No the IMO they should be subject to the above process.
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threnodio
I was alluding to Ecconomic Self sufficiency more than resource self sufficiency.
Your point about fresh produce makes sense. All that grow's in the Garden of England now is Rape seed, what a ridiculus situation.
Does the current financial situation not constitute a national emergency/ International emergancy
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#76 -WhiteEnglishProud
I don't think economic self-sufficiency is a practical proposition because of the high dependence on imports for the means of production. That is not to say that the UK could not be skills self sufficient if more effort were to go into education and, in particular, vocational training.
The other problem is, if you are going to attempt to restore the manufacturing base, and this is in effect what would be required, where are you going to sell the product? We cannot compete on labour costs with asia and the rest of the emerging world so it would have to be highly specialised product for niche markets. The Germans are experiencing real problems because the global conditions mean that they have run dry of customers.
I think a more multi-national approach is more practical and, like it or not, the EU remains our biggest market.
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Is it true that British Jobs For British Workers was originally a BNP slogan? If it is, it meant what it said. Britain would withdraw from the Eu ( BNP policy ) and EU citizens in UK are to be shown the door. The BNP has a similar plan for large numbers of Britains who are non White.
If UKIP, BNP, Veritas and so many others get their way what will that start? Will there be an explosian of right wing nationalist successes throughout Europe? Will Brits abroad also be shown the door as a retaliation?
Someone mentioned the Brits working in Italy. They did not take into account property owned, people retired, using NHS systems of other countries, having businesses there, etc. Also Brits officially tourists in other countries but living most of the year there. At least 750,000 british properties in Spain. 500,000 in France, et
Can you guarantee that some future NF style govt. in Spain for example wouldn't do a " Mugabe ". That they wouldn't nationalise all foreign owned property without paying proper compensation?
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The eurosceptics are always predicting the financial meltdown of the Euro and Eurozone. They have been doing this for over 10 years since before the Euro was established.
When the financial meltdown finally came it came from the United States of America. The Anglo-Saxon economic model was what did not survive! They certainly never predicted that!
Despite everything that has happened the
British Eurosceptics remain superior as ever in their attitude.
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#78 - Europragmatic
". . . and EU citizens in UK are to be shown the door".
But the British are EU citizens. Surely they are not going to throw everyone out?
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I am from Germany / I live in rural Wales (I do not like it)- such slogans seem very racist to me.
In Wales, I have met a lot of people from Eastern Europe (Poland, Latvia, Czech Republic) who were hard-working but were treated very badly. They came for the money.
In Hamburg, I met many builders from the UK. What about academic staff? Let the English teach the languages for example?
What an awful protest of those workmen.
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"The eurosceptics are always predicting the financial meltdown of the Euro and Eurozone. They have been doing this for over 10 years since before the Euro was established."
If you think the euro is without problems you really should get out and about more. Let me quote:
David Smith, Economics Editor of the Sunday Times: "If there was a currency I was worried about at the moment it would be the euro. Three of its members, Greece, Italy and Spain, have had their credit ratings downgraded and Ireland is on 'negative watch'. The European Central Bank, having started well in the crisis, is now dragging its feet and seems in a similar state of denial to the bank of Japan in the early 1990s before the 'lost decade'. ..... Europe, if it is not careful, could be the next Japan."
The New York Times, quoting a Greek shipping magnate: "The Italians, the Spaniards, the Greeks, we have all been living in happy land, spending what we did not have. It's a fantasy world".
The NYT goes on to say: "For some countries on the periphery of the 16 member euro currency zone, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain - the debt fired dream of endless consumption has turned into the rudest of nightmares, raising the risk that a euro country may be forced to declare bankruptcy or abandon the currency".
An analyst at Lombard Street Research in London: "Adjustment in the the overvalued euro economies [Italy grossly, Spain moderately] will be much more painful and Italy's possible exit from he euro augurs for years of crisis".
Peter Sutherland, a former EU Commissioner and now Chairman of BP,
interviewed on the BBC World Service was asked how euro currencies that needed to devalue but could not would cope with their problems snapped - and that is the right word -: "Wages will just have to come down".
Supporting that the Irish Finance Minister, interviewed on BBC TV, admitted that cutting public sector wages was a possibilty being considered as part of the solution to Ireland's problem.
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The point is well made that the Eurozone is not about to blow away in the wind. Of course it is not. Germany exports more than the USA, and the infrastructure and skills of the rest of western Europe is pretty handy as well.
That isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
But this idea that the Anglo-saxon model of capitalism is proven defunct is a bit far fetched, as well.
Just because a few banks go bust and we have a major depression, that doesn't mean the model doesn't work. Arguably the depression is a good thing, even if it forces some people to abandon their dreams for a bit.
Arguably the dreams a lot of people have been favouring needed a big reality check.
I think there is a strong case to be made that for the vast majority of working people, the depression doesn't really matter all that much.
I mean, they were not going to become rich. They might think they were, but they were not. So the future for working people is more or less the same. Whether they work for a low wage and pay huge tax, or whether they exist on food stamps and welfare, the end result is pretty much the same. They will live in low grade accommodation, they will eat low grade food, and they will watch the footy on the weekend at the pub.
Arguably the real problem with this market collapse is that the other people, the "community leaders" (the rich), will not undergo market correction.
See, these people have proven beyond all doubt that they are unfit to do their jobs. All those city men, they have proven that they deserve the sack, and deserve to be unemployed. Most especially all the directors of banks and large companies. All those guys need sacking for sheer incompetence. Clearly the market would be better off if every one of them were on the dole, and out of the running for future jobs, so that they can do no more harm.
But tragically, these parasites and losers are going to plunder the public purse in order to keep their jobs, and their family fortunes. Despite having proven beyond all doubt that they are unfit to live in comfort and style, the government is going to saddle the next five generations with crippling debt, purely to keep this upper middle class living in the manner in which they have become accustomed.
And so what hope is there for society, and the market?
The market is trying to tell us all something. It is trying ever so hard to whisper something in our ears. Can you hear it?
"Your corporate management are fools and need to be replaced. Everyone working in the banks needs to be sacked. New people need to be given a go in the market. The people who run the show are bankrupt of ideas, and bankrupt of leadership quality. You must get rid of them. Let them lose their family fortunes. Let them go bankrupt."
That is what the market is telling us all, but these parasites are somehow twisting the message. They are saying to us that what we really need is to keep them around, to save their fortunes and to extend their privileges. They are telling us to ignore the market, and to listen to them.
But listening to these fools is how we got to where we are today.
I say listen to the market.
I say let the rich pay for their mistakes, and let them go on the dole for a few generations.
Give some new blood a go. Give change a chance. Listen to the market. It is trying to tell us something, and it is our friend.
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"The way things are going - soon in the world would "live normally" only India, Russia and China.
They are used to it."
:o)
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"But it will also increase the appetite for a new look at the existing laws. The Socialists in the European Parliament say: "We must maintain the internal market and the freedom of movement of capital and labour - the principles that have given unparalleled prosperity and are key to our countries' recovery from the financial downturn."
That is not where "unparalled prosperity" came from. It came from the US picking up the tab for defending Western Europe, from giving it a one way trade arrangement, a free ride to export to the US at little or no tarriffs while allowing it protectionist policies for its own markets, and then a huge round of borrowing.
In Eastern Europe, their "prosperity" such as it was, was heavily subsidized by slaves in the USSR for military/poltical reasons.
That era has come to an end. Now Europe will find out what its labor is really worth and what it can buy with it on the world market. I have a feeling it will be a lot less than it is accostomed to. Say good-bye to your lavish social safety net Europe, you've lived off of other people's efforts for far too long.
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Democracy threat: Spot on!
Yet the BBC News still treats us to the opinions of these "financial experts" to tell us where things have gone wrong!
If they were financial experts, billions of people would not be in the position they are in now!
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democracythreat @83
"Listen to the market. It is trying to tell us something, and it is our friend."
I very much approve of this yours angle. Don't know what to make of it, but feel it's an opening in the wall.
And anyway as a retired mrkt mng ;o) shall always approve of "listening to the market."
With a stethoscope! this time. LOL.
mavrikanty @85
yes Eastern Europe was subsidized by Russia, exactly as you wrote, "by slaves in the USRR, for political/military reasons."
One of my two naturally grandmothers - had a calendar she sew from a plastic kitchen apron. She made small pockets, one for each day of the month, scribbled over in blue pen, 1, 2, 3 etc. 31st.
Put there her pension, 1 rouble for each day of the month. In order to limit herself, not to spend more.
And kept saying "it's allright, we are used to suffer, God suffered and told us to as well. We are Russians, ought to be kind.
Our Governemnt is right. We have to help poor people in the world. Just think about poor people in Poland post war, in Cuba, that "Angela Davies".
My mum laughed mad and said - "those "poor people in Poland" live the way you don't dream about. And "poor people" in Cuba. As minimum it is warm there and you sit here in minus 30 in a lousy thin coat you own for 30 years.
And think about "worldwide communist revolution! to start any other day provided Russians work "just a little bit too harder" and then in the next century sometime - granted!
All simply gobble Russian money and then tell us "xxxx off."
_____
PS Who was that mysterious "Angela Davies" that the whole USSR so much sympathised about - didn't figure out to this day. I don't think anyone here knew for sure back then either.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
MAisha, I see you were moderated to fit the climate :o)
No doubt wanted to say smth sweet about Angela Davies. Here is to you in consolation:
_________
Dear moderators, these are extracts, separate pieces of an old song, translated by myself right now. You can see it is awkward and not rhymed. :o)
... How can I convince stubborn Nastasia?
Anastasia - she wants to the movie-house, every Saturday!
Nastja keeps repeating that I was infiltrated with passion to
The silly box, for clinical idiots.
Oh yeah. I am. Just enter the flat -
Hop! At home - Nixon and George Pompidou.
I slightly push by foot my bed
And find myself with the Head tet-a-tet.
...
And, later on, in Kanatchikov dacha (famous crazy hospital in Moscow)
Where, unfortunatly, a way too importunate service,
Even in hallucination I kept watching the telly programmes!
Kept stepping in for Angela Davies!
... I hear docs say: Do not cry. All alright in taiga. Won is the match USSR-FRG. Five African pirates caught by the Navy. And Alla Pugachyova sings in the telly.
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Never mind pay rates, are UK workers prepared to accept the health and safety conditions that many Italian and foreign workers suffer in Italy? They certainly should not and neither should the UK HSE IF those conditions apply here.
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Good Afternoon
First, I would like to introduce myself to let you know about my background. I’m a citizen of Poland living in Germany now.
We live in Europe that has became almost as one country recently. It has a certain benefits but it is not without disadvantages either. The benefits are obvious: easier access to new markets within Europe to sell goods, worker flow between countries, cooperation in science and more. The disadvantages? Certainly, one can say that tensions of low educated people in the better situated countries afraid of loosing their living standard has risen. Others can also argue that the culture among the countries starts to blur adopting habits and other things from others. Personally, I don’t thing this is something extremely negative.
The EU countries opened its borders and invited new countries to its union so, like in the case of two vessels with liquid of different levels, it is obvious that any differences will start to average. The same is with prices of goods as well as standard of living. So, if any wealthier country would have liked to keep their standard to itself it should either produce more to sustain the level or close its borders. That’s the way it is. The salaries will go lower the same like the prices of some goods in other countries that are produced in more expensive way (this is in the new EU countries and is especially connected to food production).
I think that the protests are just baseless and the only way to respond to the wishes of protesters is just to close the borders and quit from the union. But, of course, that will cause different problems.
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