Norwegian shelter
Basking in the almost subtropical temperature of minus three degrees in Oslo this is an odd beginning to the New Year for me.
Much of Europe is freezing and without gas heating as relations with Russia hit another bump. It's a real test of the European Union whether it manages to gets its act together and deliver a single message.
I should, I feel, be in Bulgaria or Austria, sharing their pain and reporting on the problem. But this is also the year of parliamentary elections in the EU and the News at Ten want a big-picture curtainraiser on the subject that delights so many contributors here - the benefits and disadvantages as a whole.
Norway has voted twice to stay outside the EU and opinion polls suggest people are now even more firmly in favour of keeping outside the club. Partly perhaps it's because Norway is rich in oil and gas - so no danger of the heating being turned down here.
But the constant haunting dilemma of this job is where to be and what to cover.
I have another tough choice as well. Whether or not to try "Luttefisk". In a Belgian supermarket just before Christmas I was intrigued to hear a Norwegian woman trying to find a wine match for a delicacy she was having some difficulty describing. She told me it was cod coated with "the same thing you paint the walls with". After a baffled couple of days friends told me the wall-coating substance was caustic soda. They had tried the end product and were less than enthusiastic about this jellified fish dish. I am constitutionally in favour of experimentation and inquiry, particularly when it comes to food, but I may vote "no" on this occasion.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~48~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
I would recomend a light dry red as with all white fish dishes - a Bordeaux would be perfect. Lutefisk when properly prepared is excellent - and never with a hint of caustic soda. It must be tried!
Complain about this comment
Mark, the correct spelling is lutefisk, and you do well to stay away - it's one of those things that you need to be accustomed to at birth (or pretty close) and few foreigners ever take up a liking to it. If you want unusual food, try the reindeer or elk, both of which are excellent.
As for why the Norwegians are still out, it largely boils down to 4 things:
1) Oil (makes staying alone a viable proposition in the short term)
2) Fish (Norwegians take their stock management seriously and are understandably not impressed bu the common fisheries policy)
3) Agriculture (has a special place in the national ethos but would be utterly uncompetitive in a free market, even with subsidies)
4) History (Norwegians gained their independence relatively recently after 500+ years of subjugation and are still extremely touchy about the entire concept of "unions")
However I think they would still be well served by joining; if anything the recent precipitous drop in the krone shows the risks of running small currencies.
Complain about this comment
Mark.
If you try lutefisk make sure that its Atlantic cod and not Common ling (molva). At least here in Finland in yesteryears it was hard to get Atlantic cod and in many Christmas my parents were disappointed on noticing that they had been sold Common ling and not Atlantic cod.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutefisk
Complain about this comment
Lutfisk (the Swedish spelling) is to my taste very bland. You can try it if you want to, but it just doesn't taste much at all.
Somewhat more on topic: Sweden has been unaffected by the crisis, since we get all our gas from Norway (and have plenty of nuclear and hydroelectric power as well). However, Russia wants to draw the Nord Stream pipeline through the Swedish economic zone to bypass the East European countries. Many Swedes are afraid that tensions will increase as the Russian Baltic Fleet plans to start patrolling the pipeline when it is laid, and that the Russians are going to install surveillance equipment on the pipeline to spy on us. It will be interesting to see if international pressure on Sweden to agree to the pipeline will increase if supplies passing through Ukraine start to be regarded as unreliable.
Complain about this comment
It will be interesting to see who will be the looser in this gas game? i guess China..
Let see the bright side of it.. all rich currupt politico-business elites that have created monopolies in both sides are at a war of words and some technical actions.. let see if in thier war they will need to drag the real puppets their citiziens too.
ps, when a monopoly is created in eu russia or ukraine etc.. it is because of these politicos and of a preciouse resouce which is allways scarce..
norway is a drop in the ocean,... but maybe big since the ocean got small recently
Complain about this comment
Wine???? In the name of Good King Canute any looted French wine would do I would think. But us Wends in Texas would probably serve Beer, Beer, Beer and if you can lay hands on it an English mead. My Norwegian cousin in Minneota agrees.
Don't let the lye throw you off, if it doesn't taste good yet, keep eating and drinking, it should get pretty good about 3:00 AM in the morning. You might want to have some Jaegermiester (Germany's miracle cure for the routine)and cheese to clear the palate with handy.
Don't plan anything for the next day, get a good wool sweater, you might be feeling a little under the weather.
The gas didn't show up? Let me guess this will involve a committee of bueacrats and take a long time. Did the EU insert itself between Russia and Georgia? I believe that is what the Briish taugt us Americans is called a diplomatic signal. Probably no connection, but before you go messing with Mother Russia you might want to build a real EU military and even then it really isn't a real great idea.
Complain about this comment
I worked quite a bit in Norway (in Fornebu, not far from Oslo) a few years back and really got to like this country despite it being the land of the £20 pizza, beer at £7 a pint and a London-style congestion zone that seems unnecessary given the population and traffic density. Oslo has the best airport in Europe too with a nice fast train into town which sets a benchmark that I hope Crossrail will match in years to come for Londoners. But what really makes Norway such a great place is the solid dependable people with their great character and can-do attitude. Visitors to Norway should be glad they do not use the Euro or the already exorbitant prices would now be pushed even higher.
The phrase 'European partner' has in recent years become code for a country you would really prefer to have nothing to do with. But in the case of Norway the UK really does have an ideal partner for our energy needs. British companies have negotiated long-term gas supply contracts with Norway such that the current tensions between Russia and its customers are almost totally irrelevant to us.
Complain about this comment
NO need to worry.... in the worst case scenario we will all get some nuke energy or something like that if this testing of what the other side can do will continue..
just wait and lets test how far the other side is willing to go.. :)
Complain about this comment
#2
A few further thoughts.
Being members of the EEA, Norway applies a lot of EU legislation but has no say in its making. Also, as of 2005, Norway pays an annual fee of €240 million to the EU budget but it receives no EU expenditure. (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_and_the_European_Union )
Food (and fuel) for thought when the fish and oil run out.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ian Townhill (9): EEA members are only required to implement a subset of EU legislation mainly related to the single market, and have no obligation to implement EU law in all the political areas where the EU has assumed new powers under the more recent treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice (not to mention Lisbon). Therefore the argument that EEA members need to implement EU law they have no say over is increasingly not the case. Never-the-less it would be better for the UK to renegotiate its membership such that we have an EEA-like arrangement (i.e. no political union) but with voting rights over single market rules too.
The Swiss government made a cost analysis of three different options; (a) EU membership, (b) EEA membership and (c) EFTA membership plus biliateral treaties. The official Swiss government report indicates that EU membership is seven times more expensive than EEA membership and nine times more expensive than EFTA membership plus bilateral treaties. Therefore your argument that EEA membership is as costly as EU membership is also completely incorrect.
Complain about this comment
Mark:
[Basking in the almost subtropical temperature of minus three degrees in Oslo this is an odd beginning to the New Year for me. ]
I know how that feels; Maybe after visiting Norway, you can go to the others places that was mentioned in your blog.....
~Dennis Junior~
Complain about this comment
Mark:
About the fish dish; I would have 'voted' no on it also....
~Dennis Junior~
Complain about this comment
Democracythreat,
Mark is a good man he is not overeacting. Having the gas turned off will teach self-sufficiency. It was good for the US, both times the Arabs did it'. This is a good time to learn to build a fire, do it outside, so you don't die of carbon dioxide or burn the house down.
Complain about this comment
democracythreat @10.
I feel like a captain said in one Soviet old novel/marine memoirs. There were 2 Sov. ships, at night, at a frozen port. One anchored, the other just arrived. And the new arrival couldn't "park" by the pier, storm, wind, iced slippery pier. They shouted to the standing already ship, for help, like, send someone to the pier, to catch up our ropes, we'll cast them to you, to roll over those? metal? banks? on the pier.
And the other ship's 2nd mate replied No, all shifts sleeping, no hands, do it yourself.
So they did, one of their men slipped down from the pier in the jump, was nearly squeezed btw the ship side and the pier, but they "parked".
Next morn the captain of the ship that was asking for help the prev. night went to visit his neighbours' captain. Explained and wondered. The captain called his 2nd mate asked why they refused to help.
The 2nd mate said And why should we? What has happened? Our people were sleeping, tired after the un-loading, all frozen to death themselves, where would I get money un-planned to pay them for the extra work? It's not our business, to know how to anchor - we did - it is their business.
Then the captain happy owner of such
a 2nd mate bowed his grey-haired head and said he deeply apologises. If he was reported of the incident in time, he'd go himself, and pull those iced ropes with own hands, would pull them with his teeth, if need be.
Then damned the new practical generation of sea-men and fined his 2nd mate with 2 weeks without shore "for not reporting the incident waking him up immediately - to put it in parameters understandable to your formal attitude to sea-man brotherhood."
Complain about this comment
As a Yank who married into a family with the Lutefisk tradition for christmas, I would recommend a flavorful red wine - lutefisk needs all the help it can get!
Complain about this comment
#2 and #6, I'm afraid the only correct answer to this is beer and aquevit
#11 Between EEA and Schengen (which Norway is also part of) Norway does apply the vast majority of EU rules. With no voting power whatsoever, the Norwegian government is reduced to asking Sweden and Denmark to plead its case, which sometimes works, but not always
Someday the North Sea oil will run out, probably not too far from now. I'm pretty willing to bet that Norway will join the EU before then.
Complain about this comment
To Freeborn-John (11):
To quote Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area ):
"The non EU members of the EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) have agreed to enact legislation similar to that passed in the EU in the areas of social policy, consumer protection, environment, company law and statistics. These are some of the areas covered by the European Community (the "first pillar" of the European Union).
It is said that the legislation concerning single market concerns approximately 2/3 of the EU legislation. So for a country to just being EEA -member doesn't really free it from the helms of Brussels.
Monetarily the difference between full membership and EEA -membership isn't that big. For example Finland pays yearly approx 615 million euro to EU, Norway pays 240 million euros, that is difference of 400 million. Now the question of course is, does the full membership really give us more benefits?
In my opinion it does. Projects like Euro have stablized our economy, lowered interests rates, lowered over-head costs for businesses etc... We also have the backing of EU commission which is handy when Nokia wants to advantage a standard dear to it or when one of our pulp companies is in trouble in Southern America.
Now its another question does full membership suite all countries. It could be said that countries like Norway which have unusual economic structure don't need EU has much as countries who just to concentrate on doing manufacturing and trade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_and_the_European_Union
Complain about this comment
#14# "This is a good time to learn to build a fire, do it outside, so you don't die of carbon dioxide or burn the house down."
here we go again... is the GHG (CO2 in this case from fire) theory of causing climate change and global warming true?.... or it is a poison that we will die... i dont know...
anyway O2 is less dense we all die.. more CO2 we all die..
Complain about this comment
IPCC is discredited with this relation to climate change.. climate has been changing all times.. as well as this gas games or wars in gaza have been happening all times when change is coming for the old elites..
Complain about this comment
#14 - politejomsviking
Thank you for your suggestion. Can you suggest a website where I can find out how to start a fire in a third floor apartment in Budapest without burning the whole building down?
Thank you.
PS. Unless you have a pipeline from the Middle East to Texas, I am not sure how they managed to turn it of twice. Unless you think it's gasoline we are about to run out of.
Complain about this comment
Mark,
Enjoy your stay in Norway. Great country, great people.
Complain about this comment
Just about anything will taste great after a couple of three drinks. It reminds me of the comedian i saw once who claimed he did not like brandy, but after a few glasses he started wondering where the host had hidden the good stuff. As for Norway and the EU and cold weather, what the heck happened here? Did not our ancestors, not mine, i am from Portugal, live in cold weather before? What a bunch of whimps have the Euros become. I myself like my favourite Lisbon dish: cod fish with potatoes, some greeens and carrots with plenty of olive oil, vinegar and some red wine. It tastes delicious.
Complain about this comment
21 - threnodio.
Here is my suggestion: go to the kithen, turn the oven on, and place your bed there. It works great! Or if you are married or have an intimate partner you can cuddle. As a kid i did not change socks for days, but then those were the bad old days of poverty in Lisbon.
Complain about this comment
Threnodio,
When I say the Arabs turned our gas off twice, of course I mean Automobile. I am an American, so probably wouldn't notice if they did natural gas, because my house is all electric with Central air.
How to make fire-
1. Easiest, BIC lighter
2. Most Fun- Take some steel wool or a steel wool brillo pad, attach two small wires from the steel wool to a battery,stand back, you will have flaming metal, trust me whatever is under steel wool, will be on fire.
3. Most likely to irritate spouse- Shoot hair spray across any hot wire.
4. Most authentically American-Make a fire drill-take a straight hardwood stick and roll it between your hands as fast as you can. Feed lint onto board where stick is contacting board, blow gently until you get a coal, continue to feed in tender until you have a roaring fire.
5. Most European-Ask any US solier walking by "Hey Joe got a light?", they ALL carry zippo cigarette lighters. Helps if you have a wig and mini-skirt.
6. Most modern American-go to your car there is a cigarette lighter there.
If this is going to last a while I would go to a hardeware store and get the following.
-A Silicone caulk dispenser and several industrial tubes of silicone
-Some sheet insulation foam
-lots of big candles
-some Aluminum foil
-an electric space heater
-door insulation
Take the sheet inslation and completly cover your windows with it. Seal compleatly, all around. Cover all openings with the Aluminum foil. Sillicone gaps in apartment, don't forget to wrap any window Air-conditioner units in Auminum foil. If you have sealed everything properly, you should be able to heat the apatment with just the small space heater or candles like you would an iglo.
If this becomes really desperate you can make a plastic survival suit out of black lawn garbage bags.
You might want to get a chemical type fire extiquisher also in case somebody tries to bring burning metal into your building.
Make a game of it, get creative, tell the kids your playing suvival. I would go to any suvivalist sight for additional ideas.
Complain about this comment
Actually, I find it hard to believe there's much to be learned on the gas crisis by going to Austria or Bulgaria and talking to some freezing people there. Anyone can stand in the cold and say "It's cold". There's far too much of that sort of populist nonsense goes on as it is.
Stay close to actual news sources and interview people who understand what's going on - who could be in Moscow, Kiev - or Brussels, London, or even Oslo.
Complain about this comment
The impression that I get is that Ukraine is the one directly stopping natural gas from getting to the more westerly states (Austria, Bulgaria, etc.), but that it is doing so to try to force some solidarity out of non-Russian Europe.
Ukraine is being bullied by Russia, who is trying to twist its arm into falling more under the Russian sphere of influence under the guise of making Ukraine pay fair rates for their gas imports.
Ukraine knows that it cannot go one-to-one with Russia, and so has sought the help of Europe - help which (unsurprisingly) did not materialize.
So now Ukraine is trying to take a leaf from Russia's book, with a new twist. By cutting off gas to the EU/Balkans, more of Europe will feel that pain that Ukraine already does, and so Ukraine's argument of 'see how mean Russia is' might get more agreement, and especially action based on that agreement.
However, Ukraine runs the risk of making the EU hate it and Russia hate it. Considering Ukraine borders both, it's needless to say that ticking off both of your much larger and powerful neighbors is not wise.
Yet Ukraine has little choice, because 'Europe' is being stereotypically European (from an American-centric point of view). The governments (and to some extent the citizenry themselves) of so many European countries will toss out heaps of nice-sounding platitudes and verbal support (and chastise other countries for not following suit), but when the going gets tough, they don't do anything concrete and of value.
So even if Ukraine won't be making any friends out this strategy, they may just pressure their western neighbors into becoming useful allies.
I wouldn't bet on it, though.
That's how I see this economic warfare between Ukraine and Russia and their trying to get the EU involved or not involved, respectively.
Complain about this comment
Jukka (18): Norway is about 25% richer per person than Finland. Since the direct costs of EU membership are based in part on GDP and since Norwegians are among the richest people in the world, Norwegians could fully expect to pay considerably more for EU membership than Finns. Yet as you show they pay only about 1/3 what Finland pays today thanks to EEA membership.
Contrary to what you say EEA countries are not bound by most of the EU’s social & employment legislation, and not at all by the common agriculture, fisheries, foreign, security, justice/home affairs policies, etc., etc. As time progresses the EU will develop more and more binding law in all these new areas such that the proportion of EU law that Norway (and other EEA members) is not obliged to implement will rise over time. Therefore EEA members will retain their democratic systems of government in future decades in all the politically-sensitive areas that normally decide general elections. Citizens of EU member states will however all experience the progressive loss of the power of their votes to influence any of the areas where the EU has assumed competence until our votes have no more influence over these key policy areas than they do now over the Common Agricultural Policy. Therefore the advantages of EEA membership will become more and more apparent over time as democracy is steadily extinguished in the EU.
The problem with the EEA is real only a lack of representation, but this could be addressed by giving EEA members voting rights over the common market rules which are that affect them. These rules are of low political sensitivity compared to matter of geberal politics but EEA members should be entitled to the same influence as anyone else. If the EEA cannot be reformed to give its members more influence then I would not support the UK being an EEA member. I would instead favour the UK leaving the EU and either negotiating Swiss-style arrangements (i.e. EFTA plus bilateral treaties) or simply being totally independent of all these international organisations.
45% of UK trade is with countries outside the EU and the tariff revenue on this trade only amounts to about £3.3 billion a year (which we must currently hand over to Brussels). Therefore the maximum cost of being outside the EU and British trade with the EU26 being subject to tariffs would only be £4-5 billion per year. In reality the cost would be e a lot less because we would then (a) be able to keep the customs taxes on our non-EU trade that we currently hand to Brussels and (b) we would raise more tariff revenue than we would lose because the volume of imports from the EU is greater than the volume of British exports to the EU26. Therefore if the cost of EEA membership were more than than a nominal sum it would clearly be more cost effective for the UK to reject EEA membership too.
---
BTW – Euro membership has not stabilised your economy. As the Irish are now finding out, the Euro simply closes off two 'pressure release' mechanisms (interest rates and exchange rate changes) such that the full force of economic adjustment must be borne by unemployment. The British experience of the ERM was that it made the real economy less stable which no doubt partly explains why a BBC poll last week showed than 71% of Britons want to stay out of the Euro.
Complain about this comment
norway well done staying outside of the next soviet regime building up in europe known as eu
Complain about this comment
Awful to think this all because of us. Like threnodio and outdoor fire.
If hot water is still miraculously on, the best way to raise up temperature in the apartment/flat is to fill the bath up with steaming hot water, and keep the bathroom door wide open.
Several yrs ago was minus 36 in St. Petersburg, and a black-out occured, because all used electric heaters additionally in the apartments. Central heating/radiators - not sufficient for this temperature.
New Year night. Heating off, electricity off, TV off, PC off, elevators/lifts off. Not a single light, and I walk home embracing frozen icy fir-tree not even sure which my building is in the dark.
The man selling "yolka"-s/fir-trees ran away from the pile in the street, said "Take any, do whatever, take them all, I don't care."
So I stumbled with yolka to the 9th floor, and barely had time to fill up the bath before the pumps stopped working as well, and all water stopped, as no electricity to pump it up in the buildings, even the back-up individual stations collapsed. But those steaming vapours from the bathroom were really a relief. And candles of course.
The only problem was yolka. It didn't want to un-freeze.
Politejoms you forgot one other thing for outdoor fires.
A./ simply splash on car gasoline to get it all up
B./ Any oil, fires love oil.
C./ Simple salt sprinkled ignites big fires excellently.
Complain about this comment
I am grateful for everyone's helpful suggestions and will study them in more detail when I get to Bermuda.
Complain about this comment
Actually you people are missing the most obvious way on keeping warm over nights and that is sleeping bag! Even the basic models that one can get with 10 or 20 euro are adequate when sleeping inside without heating. With a hundred euro one should get a sleeping bag that doesn't let you down even with more horrific circumstances.
Just note...
When buying sleeping bag, there are four temperature limits: upper, comfort, lower and extreme. Target for comfort and make sure lower is enough for you.
When sleeping in the sleeping bag, take all your cloths away. The sleeping bag works best when you have as little as clothes as possible.
From my own experience, I have slept one of my best nights in a sleeping back in the army. A good sleeping back just doesn't let you down.
Oh...
And for the love of god, don't make open fire inside if you don't have fireside and if you do make sure the chimney has been cleaned. Otherwise making open fire inside is a sure way to lower ones apartments property value or get quick pass on afterlife.
Complain about this comment
A thought, a technical question. The UK is supplied by gas from Norway; how?
Is it condensed? Is there a pipe? How?
Complain about this comment
Ah sorry, it was Sweden. And I thought there is an unknown way to ship gas over distances.
Complain about this comment
9. At 4:12pm on 07 Jan 2009, Iantownhill wrote:
"Being members of the EEA, Norway applies a lot of EU legislation but has no say in its making. Also, as of 2005, Norway pays an annual fee of ?240 million to the EU budget but it receives no EU expenditure."
This sounds a bit like what I have read about Switzerland and is relevant to the UK in that we have to consider what to do when we leave the "EU".
As I understand it, Switzerland and Norway pay a lot to the "EU" for "privileged access to EU markets."
I don' see why they pay. I would have thought that in return for privileged access to the "EU", the "EU" would get privileged access to Norwegian/Swiss markets and that that should be enough.
Switzerland is in a very difficult position in that it is surrounded by the "EU".
The Norwegian situation is different. They are not surrounded by the "EU" and export GAS!
What would happen if the Norwegians refuse to pay? Would the "EU" refuse to buy Norwegian gas? One thinks not.
The "EU" is very aggressive in the use of any power it has. I believe that Norway should beef up its defences for the day when the "EU" turns its military fantasies into reality. We are lucky to be an island.
I have been told and have read in Germany that the "EU" should play hardball with us if we leave. For that reason, I believe that negotiations to have some sort of special relationship with the "EU" after we leave will be a worthless exercise. We should leave and trade with the "EU" on the basis of WTO rules and maybe negotiate a marginally closer relationship later.
Complain about this comment
Threnrndio #21,
You don't need a pipeline what you need is a LNG tanker. If I remember what they taught me in the US Army during a short stint as a Battalion POL Officer (petroleum, Oil, Lubricants), Natural gas becomes a liquid that is safe to transport at approximately -259 degrees farenheight. Of course you need to reconstitute it into a gas to use it, which means taking it out of solution. I don't remember what they said to do, but it is probably to compress it to create controlled heat. Nobody try this until you look it up in a scientific journal. I am going by memory and it might be faulty. Remember NG and LNG have an expansion rate at combustion (even accidental) that qualifies them as an explosive not a propelent, so security is in order if these ships or trucks are docked near a city.
I wouldn't go to Bermuda, I would stick it out with the locals. Like Dietrick Bonnhoffer how can you be a part of, let alone judge their struggles, of the people who are your neighbors, if you do not suffer under the same conditions and stay for the crisises they live through? That's why he had to return to Hitler's Germany, even though he knew that conflict was coming and American bombers were going to destroy Germany. What moral authority or respect will you have if you leave your neighbors now? Be the Britain who is the solution finder and heroe!
Surviving is always fun once you do it and only gets better with time.
Complain about this comment
@ 28 Freeborn-John
*Contrary to what you say EEA countries are not bound by most of the EU's social and employment legislation, and not at all by the common agriculture, fisheries, foreign, security, justice/home affairs policies, etc., etc.*
I think you forget one small detail. Both Norway and Switzerland are members of Schengen. That makes them, in many respects, more integrated with the EU than the UK itself, with its semi-detached status.
Let’s deconstruct your argument:
CAP – UK is in, Norway is out – We agree on this
Foreign policy – There is no such thing as EU foreign policy; that is a myth created by the EU-phobics. Any foreign policy that there is requires unanimity, so that is why there was no common foreign policy on the illegal Irak invasion, for example. Individual EU countries have their own specific foreign policies but that doesn’t stop them from trying to harmonise their policies. In fact, were it not for the obstructionist stance of the UK, the EU would have a much more developed common foreign policy by now.
Justice/home affairs – Since when there is a common EU policy (of any significance) on this? And to the extent that there is the UK has opted out or it (e.g. Rights charter). In fact, the UK is clearly going it alone, e.g. database of emails, phone calls and internet visits (see link), storing DNA of innocent people…. Was all this something to do with EU directives, FJ please enlighten us?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uks-database-plan-condemned-by-europe-1218246.html
Border and visa policy – Schengen – The UK is out, being the ONLY EU or EEA country that has refused to join (forcing Ireland to follow suit) while Norway and Switzerland are IN. That means that both Norway and Switzerland have not been enthused by the *keep-our-borders-fundamentalism* (see link below), which seems a specific British disease. That also means that Norway and Switzerland apply the Schengen rules (and in this case they do have a say on them, and, as far as I know are also full members of Frontex, the EU borders agency) which involve a common visa policy, common border security policy and, most importantly, they have lifted their internal borders with other EU-Schengen countries.
Foreigners be warned – paranoia rules at the British border
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a395ccd4-9fb1-11dc-8031-0000779fd2ac.html
So, in reality, it is not as simple as *the benefits and disadvantages* of being in or out, and boy, Mark is going to have its work cut out to try to explain that to his bosses at the BBC (once he gets to grips with it) because they so like to reduce things to simple black or white options.
Complain about this comment
AnonymousCalifornian@27: So, if I understand rightly, we Europeans should feel guilty for not assisting an Ukraine that is blackmailing the rest of Eastern and Central Europe to continue getting natural gas from Russia at half the price everybody else pays?!
I have a suggestion: if you feel so solidary with Ukraine's plight, why don't you go and pay their gas bill?
Complain about this comment
The only thing to drink with lutefisk is akevitt (aquavit)!!
Complain about this comment
Re 7: Oslo has the best airport in Europe too with a nice fast train into town which sets a benchmark that I hope Crossrail will match in years to come for Londoners.
I wouldn't bet on that, unless you have a 3 figure number for those "years to come". National Rail can get the shabby Euston--Milton Keynes line running properly... forget the Crossrail propaganda. Another blackhole for taxpayers money. I'm amazed that you Freeborn are so pliable.
By the way, Norway is a country of 4 million with more resources than all of the UK put together, that's a 1:15 ratio of difference so your dreams about the UK following the Norse in their EU-relations footpath are... dreams. And Norway will join as soon as oil and/or whales will be extinct.
Complain about this comment
SuffolkBoy
Come on, please don't just run away to another thread.
I'd be interested to see your response to #191 of Unhappy New Year.
Complain about this comment
I don't know what Europeans are yammering about? Freezing cold homes, work places, and severe financial impact are what they would have imposed on the US and some of thir own countries themselves under Kyoto and more severe Carbon reduction treaties. Now that they are experiencing the reality of their proclamations for others they don't like it. It isn't the people they had targeted to suffer. Be careful what you wish for, you never know when your wish may come true. Just think of this as an experiment in sharing the experience of restricting carbon emissions. Then think twice before the next hairbrained idea that sounds good on paper that will not only make us suffer but won't even work. Now go back to the drawing board and come up with a real idea that will work and won't make people's lives miserable and impovrished.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
42. At 11:39am on 08 Jan 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"I don't know what Europeans are yammering about? Freezing cold homes, work places, and severe financial impact are what they would have imposed on the US and some of their own countries themselves under Kyoto and more severe Carbon reduction treaties. Now that they are experiencing the reality of their proclamations for others they don't like it."
Please see the end of #125 Unhappy New Year
For everyone else, see
http://www.myspace.com/marcusaureliusii
Complain about this comment
That other well known EEA country, Iceland, that has identical ties with the EU as Norway and Switzerland made a surprise application to be a fully fledged EU member a couple months ago. It might all be warm and rosy in sub zero Norway at the moment but what has happened in Iceland demonstrates that in harder times it's better not to be in the middle of the sea all on your own.
And to RCalvo @38
You must also understand that Russia refuse to pay anywhere markets rates to transit gas across Ukrainian territory to the EU making Russia billions of Euros per year, Ukraine has a valid point arguing the price they should pay. Ukraine is being bullied and blackmailed by Russia and they are standing up to them, unlike some EU countries I can mention, Germany for one. After all, making Ukraine's position to the EU untenable will diminish their chances of membership which is what Russia wants and force it back under it's sphere of influence.
Complain about this comment
the only thing to go with lutfisk is lashings of aquavit!
Norway should never join the EU its the prettiest country in the world and should stay that way
Complain about this comment
Ilah2001@45: I'm not a fan of Mr. Putin. I can understand "standing up to Russia" on human rights, Chechnya, or his attempts to throw his weight around in other countries. But you present this yourself as a purely commercial dispute between Russia and Ukraine (or more precisely, between their gas companies, that is, their respective oligarchs).
It is thus purely about money, and any sympathy I may feel for Ukraine as a country goes there through the window, especially when they try to blackmail the EU by interrupting supplies to just those countries which, up to now, had been their staunchest supporters.
Complain about this comment
37 Jorge g1
Your decostruction of FreebornJohns on
Justice/Home affairs
All the things you say about the databases are true
However by 2010 we will have had an election at which we will be able to get rid of these policies by voting in a different government. If we retain this government then Europe may dislike these databases but they will have been validated by a democratic vote.
However the pan European arrest warrent which allows any country or Eu official to get me arrested without having to get an extradition through a court, even for something that is not a crime in this country, is as a great an infringement of my rights as any database created by this government
What election can I vote in to stop that?
On foreign affairs if every country is free to set its own policies, why create a permanent Foreign Secretary for the EU, why ask for the power to sit as permanent member of the UN Security council, why ask British taxpayers to fond Eu embassies when we have a perfectly useful set of our own?
Complain about this comment
Ilah2001,
I recognise Ukr. might very well be unhappy with the transit price in the contract.
But for crying out loud you don't re-view the contract price by shutting transit to Europe!
And by questioning the validity of the transit contract in 24hrs time at a district Kiev court, applied to Jan 4th, verdict obtained ("stupid contract") on Jan 5th.
The wording of the Kiev court is not the "stupid contract", of course, sorry.
It is "the person who signed it on behalf NaftoGas in 2005 doesn't work in NaftoGas anymore and now we deem he exceeded his power by signing a contract (exceeded his work description allowance).
Hell knows, no idea who was it, may be indeed exceeded, was a Russian-Ukrainian spy or I don't know what. But somehow he was fit for the Ukrainian gas company, to work there, nobody fired him, and the company did use this transit contract to transit gas to Europe according it it. We paid, they took money, transited gas, why did the contract and the man who signed it became both so suspicious on Jan 4th?
The transit contract we have with them is 2005-2010.
Question it in some int'l court, in Stockholm court, I don't know, some place where companies of various countries can apply, like "market situation has changed" or "the crisis" I don't know.
Ukraine blackmails Europe and Russia, exactly the way as in 2006, when Gasprom gave way under pressure.
The diff. is in 2006 nobody in Europe had underground gas stocks. France and Germany built them up, and filled up to the max., by this time. Eastern Europe hasn't.
And many in Eastern Europe are exactly "brothers-slavs" who we are freezing by the combined effort now! Disaster.
Anyway Ukraine is beyond any sanctions realistically as a grey zone, collapse place with no power at power, no money, go figure what you can do with them. They are immune, can kick out whatever tricks.
Russia is directly "sew"-able, I mean any EU country not-receiving gas now can sew Gasprom, since Gasprom contracts country by country are separate, on hard paper, with all clauses set, and Gasprom foresees multi-million claims now.
The hell with Ukraine, any agreements with them there are un-reachable. Given our relations' status, and their non-power conditions. They are sneaky as eels, sign with them whatever - they'll violate it in a month, and all over again. Mutual happiness is un-reachable with Ukraine btw us and them clearly, at this point.
What can and must be done is Gasprom starts pumping again European quotes due via Ukraine, having ensured all those concerned countries' independent observers at entry stations to Ukraine, and at the single most important exit point, in Slovakia's Velky Kopushany.
EU observers must be dragged by the hair, bribed, pleaded by Gasprom on the knees, complimented, charmed, promised all sins' forgivance and whatever, but their presence by a couple of tubes ought to be ensured.
Then we pump the gas and Ukraine doesn't dare to divert it to own holds.
I rather hope this arrangement, to have Ukraine transit, at the point of a gun, (virtually. at the point of the "EU smiles") starts tomorrow.
Gasprom can easily offer Ukraine a promise to review/re-dispute the transit price. Whatever Ukr. would want for the transit, Gasprom can ciompensate later on by adjusting the gas price to Ukraine, LOL, when Ukr. runs out of own stocks by approx. May-time.
The main thing now is they resume transit.
We'll sort the prices later.
Complain about this comment
#47 - RCalvo
The problem is that the explanations being put forward by both sides are highly plausible. I am no engineer but even I can see how a sudden and dramatic drop in pressure could affect the infrastructure. My point is that it should not have happened in the first place. If both Naftogaz and Gasprom are serious businesses, they should both have realised that this kind of brinkmanship compromises their ability to fulfil their obligations to third parties. It is also the case that both companies are state owned monopolies which gives their respective governments the clout to bang heads together and insist that they not pursue commercial disputes which are likely to provoke a foreign policy crisis.
In the short term, the best we can do is to remind them that it is neither country's interest to offend their best customer and that the long term repercussions could be very serious. Slovakia and Bulgaria are already floating the idea of recommissioning their Soviet era nuclear facilities, Poland and German will probably accelerate their clean coal technology development, Hungary will possibly move towards developing it's considerable geothermal potential and, in partnership with Slovakia, hydro-electric programs.
In the short term, for those of us in central Europe who are reliant on gas to heat our homes and cook, we will just have to grin and bear it, but there will be widespread suffering and possible deaths if this goes on. It matters not to us whether they are playing power politics or simply do not know how to run their businesses. We want the gas we have paid for and failure to deliver will simply result in anger and resentment which will knock on into other unrelated areas very quickly.
Complain about this comment
I agree with la_fayette.
The four points presented are a the real reasons for Norway not joining the EU. However, The EU is not for every country. Some countries will manage better outside of it than in it and it is important to know that as long as there are trade agreements between those states that have dicided to remain outside of the EU exist most of the benifits will be available .
The Union has its work cut out for it. This is a test to see if Europe can handle its own problems with Russia. The more and more that the EU expands issues with Russia will continue to escolate. Russia's fear of western influence is at the root of a lot of the current problems with the country as a whole. This current issue with gas flows to Europe highlights the need for energy independance for Europe from Russia. The gas is being shut off becase, in short, the Russians can. If you control resources you can control what is done in other countries and it gives you leverage.
The EU is not without its problems and every time something happens it is a test to see if the EU can handle this particular situation. In my personal opinion the EU why does "Europe" need to make a stand. The last time I checked Europe was still a continent with multiple countries and sovergin nation-states. Until Europe can Unify on a single foregin policy let the individual countries handle issues with the government of Russia. This further proves that Europe needs to look towards renewables to meet its needs and free its self from its dependance on Russian Gas.
Complain about this comment
Re #48 Cobber950.
Concerning EU embassies , why not? Not all the small EU member states can afford to staff embassies in all of the obscure countries of the world (or even the less obscure countries.... Does Malta have an embassy in Canada? Don't think so)
If I was a citizen of a small EU country and I'd lost my passport abroad , I'd want somewhere to go to. So why not an embassy serving all EU citizens in every country? There's nothing to stop the larger Member States still having their own separate representation, if they think they can afford it.
Complain about this comment
Absolutely agree. In fact wrote to Gazprom. And the technicalitis Ukraine refers to, must have a ground. Since officially we stopped but practically we still pump a bit.
Gas people interviewed by media here say if you stop completely, whatever politicians decide it won't be possible to resume even in 2 days time if you stop the flow entirely. So they are like sitting on a low start, awaiting an order from above, meanwhile still pumping.
Moreover it seems Ukr. Naftogas and Gasprom have no disagreements btw each other, and in fact quite a good level of understanding re what should be done, where and when (and even ab the prices, how much is fair for all sides and all). Since both sides tubes' networks are parts of an old common system. But they need respective orders "from above" and don't get them.
"Europe decided to test Russia and Ukraine on the lie detector, who says the truth in the gas conflict.
Having listened to both sides the detector hang up, on its cable."
Complain about this comment
#53 - WebAliceinwonderland
"Europe decided to test Russia and Ukraine on the lie detector, who says the truth in the gas conflict.
Having listened to both sides the detector hang up, on its cable."
I am tempted to ask who was lying but the question would be better put - was either of them telling the truth?
Complain about this comment
luisoviedo @51, the gas is shut off in essence, because the Russians can
Ukrainians can as well, didn't you notice?
Yes we thought it is our prerogative. Meanwhile Ukrainian sites circulate a joke: "Ukraine asked Europe to accept it into the EU and NATO. And if not - we will switch them off the gas!"
___________________________
Overall I don't know what the EU people keep discussing about future EU structure and institutions to be, lots of ideas and suggestions, may I also make a minor in-put - please institute a small office, keeping a small permanent force of "EU observers" - to be able to urgently send them to places
where Russia sorts its relations with its "ex". Georgia, now Ukraine. We need EU help, clearly, seen by fact.
Russia is huge big mass looming nearby Europe, and we are now getting closer. Awkwardly, idiotically, but the ships do drift together, by fact. The fact is you should take this into account.
At the moment Putin is giving press-conference on gas supply to Europe to foreign media in Moscow.
Says this minute the protocol to send EU observers to Ukraine and Russia gas hubs is written but not signed today in Brussels.
The EU refused to sign it explaining it needs to get individual signatures of all countries, consent to send gas watchers to the stations. Putin says the schedule of consnt signature collection given to us, the timing, is stretched till the next Monday afternoon.
Says "why not to have it signed within the nearest 2 hours?"
I translate word for word "Euro Commission! Take legs into your hands and - forward! Do it today! Today goes the meeting of the Ministers of Foreign Affairs of the EU countries. Why not they run it at the meeting? The ones who want the gas resumed - these countries will sign it. And we will see very soon who wants gas.
What's vicious in our desire to have EU observers at the stations to take gas pressure readings? What's harm for you in that?"
Oh, USA asks. Why so much for Ukraine, 450, and for Belorussia 120.
Putin says "Because Belorussia sold us half of their gas company shares. As part of the package they won't pay the market price for several years."
USA still asks why 450. Putin says, OK, if you insist I'll tell you what we haven't told anybody yet. When Ukraine turned down 250 and stuck at their idea of 235, we suggested them a deal. That we sign the contract for 250, however Ukraine will be allowed to take up a share of underground stocks kept in Ukraine by Gasprom, and to sell it to Europe for over 470 in 2009. To make a profit, which, combined with 250, makes the 2009 year Ukrainian expense on gas equal exactly 235. If a rouble more we will compensate them. Ukraine refused."
Oh, ! USA still asks why 450.
Putin says - You're Americans, supposed to know how to be a capitalist, right?
What we plan to sell to Ukraine we ourselves buy from Turkmenia at 300 dollars.
Why should we sell it to them at 235? Where is the profit? Would you do it?
Kind of the audience laughs now, but of course it is not a direct answer. Will watch what's next. Journalists seem to have a hay day time on Putin.
Complain about this comment
# 54. threnodio wrote:
"I am tempted to ask who was lying but the question would be better put - was either of them telling the truth?"
There is a clear fact both sides agreed on: Ukraine appropriated without authorization a part of the transit gas intened for the EU consumers, and didn't pay for. The difference was in interpretation of that event: the Russians called it stealing, the Ukranians qualified it as a technical necessity.
Complain about this comment
#56 - fragility
Very elegant and diplomatic but not all helpful. Someone is lying. Either the reduction in pressure has compromised the transit infrastructure, in which case restoring pressure will not fix the problem and Gasprom is lying - or the pressure can be normalised, in which case Ukraine has been 'liberating' western supplies and Naftogas are lying. They cannot have it both ways.
Incidentally, if Alice's report of Putin's new conference is correct and the EU really are not in a position to confirm monitoring until all 27 nations have signed up, one is tempted to ask why they are all represented in Brussels but don't have the authority to sign a document which is in everyone's interest.
Just as a final point, I can see why outside monitoring may be necessary in military conflict zones and regions of international tension but have we really reached the point where the only way in which we can guarantee industrial companies honour their contracts is to place monitors? Is there no integrity any more?
Complain about this comment
# 10. democracythreat:
" The eastern half of europe is about to freeze to death for democracy, and breach of contract, and where is Mark?
In Norway, eating fish and having long showers."
Maybe he knows more than you and he's acclimatising himself ready for the "offshore strategy" energy conference to be held in Stavanger from 9 Feb.
33. WebAliceinwonderland:
"A thought, a technical question. The UK is supplied by gas from Norway; how?
Is it condensed? Is there a pipe? How?"
Pipelines. See
http://www.subsea.org/pipelines/allbyarea.asp
Complain about this comment
fragility, overall looks yes, but as nobody knows beyong local gas people (both Russian and Ukr., because what's the diff., they are all graduates of the same Moscow gas institute, same gang. and maintaining parts of the common USSR networks) what is the technical nesessity...how much is it?
As an un-objective and patriotic (ugh) Russian I'd still think Ukraine appropriated far more than technical.
Ukraine defined its technical maintenance needs on Dec 31st, in a formal letter to Gasprom, as 21 mln cubic metres of gas per day. Same letter that contained threat to stop transit to Europe if Ukr. doesn't get 235 dollars. Acc., instead of 300 to Europe Gasprom transited 326 per day, Jan 1st - Jan 4th. But Europe was getting 10% less, below 300.
Complain about this comment
fragility, overall looks yes, but as nobody knows beyong local gas people (both Russian and Ukr., because what's the diff., they are all graduates of the same Moscow gas institute, same gang. and maintaining parts of the common USSR networks) what is the technical nesessity, how much is it?
As an un-objective and patriotic (ugh) Russian I'd still think Ukraine appropriated far more than technical.
Ukraine defined its technical maintenance needs on Dec 31st, in a formal letter to Gasprom, as 21 mln cubic metres of gas per day. Same letter that contained threat to stop transit to Europe if Ukr. doesn't get 235 dollars. Acc., instead of 300 to Europe Gasprom transited 326 per day, Jan 1st - Jan 4th. But Europe was still getting 10% less, below 300.
Complain about this comment
We always had lutefisk at Christmas, but the nature of lutefisk is much deeper than that. My husband and brothers-in-law all tried it before marrying into the family - and all those marriages are over 30 years old. My sister-in-law refused, and not only did they divorce, but she also died. Perhaps you should try it.
Complain about this comment
# 57 threnodio
I don't see any physical difference between the action of the Ukranian side that I described, and they openly admitted, and what you quite elegantly called "liberating" the western consumers of a share of the gas they have paid for.
Whether you agree with their interpreting that the appropriation was a technically unavoidable procedure, or regard it as trivial stealing is possibly a matter of political preference. That's what the EU commision appears to be contemplating.
Complain about this comment
JorgeG1 (37): The Schengan Treaty is a separate treaty from the EEA treaty. Obviously if a state has signed the Schengan treaty then it will be bound by it irrespective of whether it has signed up to the EU treaties, EEA treaty or (like Switzerland) to none of these. The UK has not signed Schengan and no matter how much it irritates you this it will not be changing because public opinion is against it and no British political party supports it either. Schengan is (like the Euro) a dead issue in this country, so please stop posting about it! The important topic for the future (i.e. after the 2010 election) is how best to renegotiate the reduction in the already excessive powers that the EU has over us. This means renegotiating those treaties we have signed and not wasting time talking about those we have not!
If you think EU foreign policy is a myth created by EUscpetics then I suggest you read the Lisbon treaty and its passages on the creation of an EU foreign minister with an automatic right to speak on our behalf in the UN Security Council, qualified majority voting on proposals from this foreign minister on the implementation of foreign policy and the establishment of an EU diplomatic service. If you read the Lisbon treaty you might also realise that the EU has the intention to create a body of EU criminal law (superior to national law) which would in time inevitably and automatically replace national criminal law systems. You would then realise that EEA members will in future be subject to a far smaller proportion of EU law than they are today (and only in areas of minor political sensitivity) and will therefore be able to remain democracies while countries that are part of the EU will not.
Complain about this comment
And where Ukraine pumps this "technical" to? 300 mln in the tubes leading to Europe per day - must be more than enough! to maintain pressure in these tubes or whatever, without any "extra-s", "technical."
Must be there is a side tube, from the Russian gas entry point, leading to somewhere in Ukraine. Where the "technical" is diverted to.
May be it is a must, to keep some "overall" stability. May be not. Hell knows.
Complain about this comment
Gazprom defines now Ukraine's "technical" requirements of 21 mln cubic metres a day as black-mail.
Says they understand Ukraine tubes' need that.
But why should Gasprom provide for Ukr. tubes' technical maintenance, Ukr. quite able to pump up gas for its technical needs from its undeground reservoirs.
Gasprom says it owns more than half of the gas in underground reservoirs on Ukraine territory, and is quite sure combined there is gas there enough for a year. For a short while, there is own Ukr. gas enough for whole Ukr. needs, not "technical" only.
Meanwhile, in Ukr. itself gas is switched off in one city only. Guess which.
Sebastopol.
Complain about this comment
Jukka (18): There is a report today that the Irish economy will decline 4% this year. For a number of years Irish GDP grew at 6-7% a year but the Irish authorities were prevented by Euro-membership from raising interest rates to moderate this unsustainable growth. Now that the inevitable bust has arrived the Irish are prevented from emulating the UK in using lower interest rates to stimulate domestic demand and are also seeing their exports priced out of overseas markets by an appreciating currency! This is the economic madness that inevitably results when an entire generation of brain-dead Irish politicians take the line of least resistance in appeasing federalist zealots in Brussels with no thought as to the consequences.
Euro membership means that Ireland is now the most unstable economy in the world. The only positive news for Irish unemployed is that they are able to seek work in a neighbouring country that had the wisdom to look ahead. The UK and Ireland are both cyclically and structurally divergent from the eurozone and either would inevitably face volatile swings in growth and unemployment by locking themselves into rates suitable for the Continent. Whatever Ireland’s problems with the UK were in the 19th century, the Irish now need to recognise that their economy will be a permanent roller-coaster so long as they pretend they are Continentals and not Anglo-Saxons. Ireland would have a more stable and prosperous economy if it now came out of the Eurozone and either used Sterling, or re-introduced the Punt with the old 1-to-1 fixed exchange rate to Sterling that was in use until 1979.
Complain about this comment
#62 - fragility
I accept your basic premise that there is no physical difference. It is not clear from your posts where you are located but, from a purely personal standpoint, as a taxpayer of a country with a land border to Ukraine which is paying the western rate for a gas supply and simply not getting it, the finer points are really of passing interest.
After a run on the Hungarian banks when there was a mass migration of capital to guaranteed deposits in the west, Hungary had to go to the IMF for funding in the very same week as Ukraine. Now it appears that these same Ukrainians might be culpable in the closure of large sectors of Hungarian industry and potentially domestic rationing as well notwithstanding that, at some point in the not too distant future, they will require support for EU accession.
I think we are entitled to know whether the Russians are engaged in power politics using gas as the weapon of choice or if the Ukrainians are playing fast and loose with our gas supplies to suit their own needs. If EU monitoring is the answer, they should stop talking about it and get on with it. The only other conclusion that can be drawn is that eastern Europe is being subjected to economic sabotage and the EU is powerless to do anything about it.
Complain about this comment
#66 Freeborn-John
It seems a strange argument to make that Ireland should return to Westminster managing its currency, instead of the ECB!
They would still have no power to set their own interest rates, but instead of the current system in which they do have an input to the decisions, they would then become a client state of the UK!
Complain about this comment
#35 - SuffolkBoy2:
35. At 07:17am on 08 Jan 2009, SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
"Switzerland is in a very difficult position in that it is surrounded by the "EU".
The Norwegian situation is different. They are not surrounded by the "EU" and export GAS!
What would happen if the Norwegians refuse to pay? Would the "EU" refuse to buy Norwegian gas? One thinks not.
The "EU" is very aggressive in the use of any power it has. I believe that Norway should beef up its defences for the day when the "EU" turns its military fantasies into reality. We are lucky to be an island."
Yes! I couldn't agree with you more! The EU IS very aggressive in the use of any power it has. Therefore, the EU should fabricate some evidence about Norway having Weapons of Mass Destruction and under the pretext of "liberating" the Norwegians from all those WMDs, should instead "liberate" them from all of their GAS and OIL, just like BRITAIN and the US did with IRAK.
You know... I would be very sad if Britain left the EU, because, clearly, we can learn a lot from you!
#66 - Freeborn-John:
66. At 8:39pm on 08 Jan 2009, Freeborn-John wrote:
"Whatever Ireland?s problems with the UK were in the 19th century, the Irish now need to recognise that their economy will be a permanent roller-coaster so long as they pretend they are Continentals and not Anglo-Saxons. Ireland would have a more stable and prosperous economy if it now came out of the Eurozone and either used Sterling, or re-introduced the Punt with the old 1-to-1 fixed exchange rate to Sterling that was in use until 1979."
So let me get this straight... You're saying that instead of going along with the "evil EU empire", Ireland should instead go along with the "kind & generous British empire"? It seems to me that you would prefer Ireland as one of your colonies, rather than an equal partner in the EU... And I think that is actually the underlying motive of most of those British euro-sceptics. They are frustrated by the fact that London is no longer the capital of the all-powerfull British Empire, and is now forced by history to deal with "the mere humans" on the Continent.
Instead of complaining all day long about how bad, undemocratic, toxic, etc. the EU is, why not help out and MAKE it a better place for all of us? Or is that beneath you...
Complain about this comment
66For a number of years Irish GDP grew at 6-7% a year but the Irish authorities were prevented by Euro-membership from raising interest rates to moderate this unsustainable growth.
Why didn't the Bank of England and the US Federal Reserve raise their interest rates to moderate the unsustainable housing property price growth? Why didn't the Bank of Iceland raise its interest to moderate its unsustainable banking sector growth. It seems to me that countries who have full access to their interest rate don't seem to have any bloody clue what to do with it. :P
63. The UK has a right not to opt in for the EU criminal law. Also the EU already has a foreign minister... two in fact: there is Commissioner for foreign affairs and an High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy, these two posts will be merged into one called High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (no idea why it needs such a bloated name) with no additional powers to its role. :P
Complain about this comment
As a norwegian, the reason I don't want any part of the EU is that it is a union.
It's barely 100 years since Norway was a free country, previously being in unions with both Denmark and Sweden.
The EU reminds me of the United States of Europe, if you understand. The EU has a parliament, a currency (Euro), and even foreign policies. As a norwegian patriot, I don't want any part of that.
I'm not opposed cooperation in Europe, though, especially trade-wise. I definitely see the necessity for that.
I think it's the word "Union" that scares most norwegians.
Complain about this comment
svedman @71,
And you are all very sensible to be scared of 'ever closer union'.
Keep your sovereignty and independence and don't let your politicians sell you out.
Complain about this comment
"- partly perhaps it's because Norway is rich in oil and gas - so no danger of the heating being turned down here."
What a joke! Norwegians have plenty of oil and gas alright but when it comes to gas they sell it abroad. No gas central heating in homes like in the UK! Just wood fires and electric heaters. Electricity prices are ridiculously high and it is used by most to heat homes. Most Norwegians complain about the high prices and who can blame them, especially when the government sells a lot of the hydro electricity cheaply to Germany etc. Why the country doesn't setup gas central heating I'll never no.
Complain about this comment
Freeborn John 63
*The UK has not signed Schengan and no matter how much it irritates you this it will not be changing because public opinion is against it and no British political party supports it either. Schengan is (like the Euro) a dead issue in this country, so please stop posting about it!*
No matter how much my posting about the *Keep-our-borders-fundamentalism* UK´s opt-out from Schengen irritates you I will keep posting about it.
In fact, it is one of your own camp, i.e. the Anti-EU camp, who has described the UK as a *Big Brother-controlled internment island* for its opt-out from Schengen. You know who he is (refer to my previous post) so you can discipline him directly.
And my key point was that, because Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are members of Schengen (which started out of the EU precisely because of the obstructionist stance of the UK, but now is part of the EU legal framework, contrary to what you say) they have a high degree of political integration with the EU in areas that the UK electorate and major parties would consider the highest of the highest taboo, i.e. a common border and visa policy
and the elimination of border controls on people travelling from other EEA countries.
*You would then realise that EEA members will in future be subject to a far smaller proportion of EU law than they are today (and only in areas of minor political sensitivity) and will therefore be able to remain democracies while countries that are part of the EU will not.*
Well, you should be glad to hear that this will not apply to the UK as its electoral system is NOT democratic in the first place.
Democracy = Rule of the people (i.e. not rule by less than 25% of the people, as it is the case of the current UK government: absolute parliamentary majority, voted in by
less than 25% of the electorate).
Complain about this comment
@65:
"But why should Gasprom provide for Ukr. tubes' technical maintenance, Ukr. quite able to pump up gas for its technical needs from its undeground reservoirs."
The moment Gasprom pays 'market level' transit fees to Ukraine the need to provide technical gas will stop for Gasprom.
"Gasprom says it owns more than half of the gas in underground reservoirs on Ukraine territory.."
A very interesting claim, esp. confronted with Ukrainian claim of having paid for said gas...
Gasprom lost its credibility as a reliable business partner quite a while ago and no amount of 'claims' will change that.
In a short term we must grind teeth and live with the bully, investing in a rapid deployment of atomic energy plants.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS