Czechs and balances
STRASBOURG 1330
President Sarkozy has called it an "outrage" and a "wound" that the president of the Czech Republic doesn't want EU flags flying from public buildings. The order caused a spat when a delegation from the European Parliament came visiting Prague Castle. 
The trip was apparently a rather torrid affair, with the Greens MEP Daniel Cohn-Bendit, that old student radical from 1968, verbally attacking President Vaclav Klaus. They were hardly likely to be big buddies: Mr Klaus is seen not only as an outspoken opponent of the EU and the Lisbon Treaty, but he also dismisses mainstream beliefs about climate change, calling the legislation that the EU is so proud of "a silly luxury".
Mr Sarkozy was responding in the European Parliament to the UKIP leader Nigel Farage, who said that the delegation should have shown respect to a head of state rather than behave like thugs and bullies. Mr Sarkozy suggested respect should be shown by Mr Klaus as well.
This didn't protect the French president from the wrath of Mr Cohn-Bendit, who has apparently decided to make attacking heads of state his new trademark. Pointing his finger, he said America's president-elect would say "No, you can't", because the climate change legislation didn't go far enough.
Mr Sarkozy, rather mildly for him, responded in effect that the Green MEP always seemed such a nice man when they had agreeable lunches together, but turned into a different fellow altogether when the TV cameras were switched on.
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The last three post are all about the exploits of the President Sarkozy- no wonder France is considered to be the most politically powerfull country in the EU, with such a busy-body president. Had the British PMs done the same over the years instead of trying to isolate the country from the rest of Europe, now we would not have had the pro- or anti-EU debate. With a stronger British position within the EU I imagine that the Great British public would not have minded so much about the face of the Queen being gone from the common currency.
Regarding the Chech President- I would like to know whether he also considers the subsidies given to his country to be 'silly luxury'.
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Re post 1, Isenhorn, I do find your europhobic attitiude a little disturbing. Just because the czechs and Irish do not happen to agree with the current direction of the E.U. does not mean you should be so negative towards our fellow europeans. I embrace such diversity and different viewpoints, indeed I welcome it. Shake off the negative mental attitiude, welcome our fellow europeans :-)
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President Sarkozy is easily outraged and wounded when he does not get his way.
Poor man will be demented and in tatters before long.
He realy should learn that it's each to there own, as has been proven time and time again.
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#2
We need to reclaim our words - I think europe is fantastic, I may even be a europhile - however the EU is an abomination and should be destroyed to save the europe we love.
Europhile and EUSceptic.
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I like Sarko, yet again and again he attempts to put the French 'Federalist' Europe agenda across whenever a photo-op occurs.
Mr Sarkozy needs to give his attention to his own countries internal economic problems rather than be distracted by some silly EU political nonsense.
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I agree, which was the point of my post. For too long people who have a cautious view of the E.U have ben labelled as europhobes etc. Those in favour labelled as europhiles. The reality is, as you say, many E.U. sceptics love other european countries, valueing the diversity we find there.
Similar just because you are in favour of the E.U. does not make you a europhile, some E.U. philes on these posts have shown very clearly that they love all european countries, provided they conform to their narrow view of what the E.U should be.
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Re post 6, this was in agreement with post 4, the real truth :-)
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Re my post 7, to be absolutely clear, I agree with the sentiments concerning the use of europhile and E.U sceptic, not that the E.U. should be destroyed. Promise last post for a while, memo to myself - 'pay attention in the future'
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8 - jordanbasset
I would go further personally and argue that pinning labels on people and filing them into neat little boxes is an exercise in futility. The cult of the 'ism' was the curse of the 20th century, political correctness is rapidly becoming the curse of the 21st. Put the two together and you have a recipe for disaster.
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Re post 9, agree
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#2
JordanBasset,
I am not really an europhobe, my post was intended as an illustration of the more active role Britain should take in the EU, instead of trying to isolate itself.
Regarding my comment about the Chech President- I would not welcome nor shake- off the negative attitude towards any 'fellow Europeans' who consider the need to combat the climate change a 'silly luxury'.
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Re: post 2, it's not so much a case of the Czechs not agreeing with the current direction of the EU; more a case of the Czech President not agreeing with the Czech Prime Minister about the direction of the EU. More diversity! And it also serves as a warning against pinning a 'Eurosceptic ' label on the Czech Republic.
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Alas, the Paris Gendarmerie in 68 didn't hit the red-headed rabble-rouser hard enough.
Any chance of an honourary Knighthood for Klaus?
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The pressure on the Irish together with the Sarkozy's response to the Czechs highlight the need for a more flexible framework.
Like many who are labelled Eurosceptic I want productive co-operation with our neighbours but resent the continued determination to shoehorn 27 countries into a 'one size fits none' meddling bureaucracy.
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Excuse me very much, but, speaking of "political correctness", I will use the labels I pretty much want to. Many so-called "EU sceptics" are in my view hardcore Europhobes, and "love other European countries" very much like some people "have black/Jewish/gay friends". I find the misuse of the term "sceptic" already galling enough.
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to Isenhorn:
Please note the correct spelling of 'Czech'.
Ad subsidies: yes but at the same time Czechs are paying normal contributions to the EU - I agree that net balance is in black but don't be mistaken, EU is not charity and access to new markets more than makes up for any difference
I am from the Czech Republic and like most people, do not like our President very much. However, comments like this from Mr Sarkozy are counterproductive if he really wanted persuade public to vote for Lisbon. But what he really wants is to make sure people notice his grandness and importance. Poor little fellow. Putin ignored his attempts so he tries to bully smaller countries.
Ad Lisbon: the only reason why only 3 countries did not ratify the treaty is that the public did not get opportunity to vote in referendum otherwise the score would be the other way around
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I remember "Red Dany" only too well from 1968 when he was one of the rabble rousing rent-a-crowd so-called "student" leaders of the nihilistic extreme left, funded from over the Wall by communist East Germany (read Moscow). At that time I was a second year student at the University of London . Our year exams were severely disrupted by the mob raised by Red Dany and his UK supporters of the time. Since then he has matured a little but the fundamental arrogance remains whereby only he is right. He reminds me of other German political extremists with a bourgeois background.
Mr Klaus is an equally obnoxious arrogant politician, close in his thinking to the "little britisher" Mrs Thatcher. At the moment in his anti-EU policies he is doing Moscow's bidding (as happened in August) .
They make a fine mismatching pair!
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RCalvo @15,
Don't worry, chum: you'll get no Political Correctness from me.
What I 'find galling' is 'Europe' being hijacked by EU-federalists.
Let's get things straight:
Europe is not the EU.
The EU is not Europe.
It is possible to love Europe - it's countries, peoples and cultures - without supporting the EU's federalist ambitions of 'ever closer union'.
To claim otherwise is plain bigotry - a nasty combination of ignorance and malice.
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Just an afterthought , given all the UK comments: What will the British do when the pound sinks to a new all-time low in value against the Euro, when a EUR will be worth more than a pound? (a matter of days?) What is the point of having a currency which is turning into junk? Historical pride? I remember all too well back in the 1970s when the pound for many years exchanged with the US Dollar at 1 GBP = 2.40 USD!(GBP is now worth only 1.53 USD)
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MaxSceptic @ 18: I, on the other hand, do not see how I could "love Europe" or other abstract entities like countries, peoples or cultures. I personally limit my affections to individuals and am pretty choosy with that.
I can however believe that better governance in Europe can and should be achieved through closer integration and that our current, very imperfect European Union provides the least complicated path towards that objective. And this without finding the EU particularly lovable.
As for "ever closer union", let me just point out that the EU's founding fathers lifted that bit straight from the Preamble to the US Constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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1.
Keeping your own currency has nothing to do with the Queens head on a lump of metal,but the ability to set interest rates to suit your economic situation and to allow your currency to float free on the international markets.
Much of the problems we have seen recently have been made far worse by the chinese peg to the dollar and the Germans using a weak euro to drive up substantial trade surpluses in both China and Germany
Had the DM existed and the yuan floated free, both would of risen, making Chinese and German goods more expensive and the rest of the world more competitive in those markets.
It would of stopped the over expansion of manufacturing in China and Germany,which is now collapsing,as the countries who bought these goods on cheap credit caused by low interest rates have run out of the ability to borrow any more.
Lower interest rates in Germany would of expanded that economy encouraging Germans to buy cheap foreign goods.
Higher interest rates in Ireland ,Spain and much of eastern Europe would of curbed the excesses of the property and debt bubbles.
Instead we had an interest rate policy by the ECB that helped no-one, and an inflexible currency that allowed a massive inbalance of trade to develop
Well done EU
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Please, just don't portray Klaus as some kind of a hero or a martyr.
I am a Czech so I have to suffer his arrogance first-hand. He simply won't recognize or respect an opinion different from his and when this opinion happens to be voiced by an European Parliament member, he will quickly hide behind his title and office, hoping to gather support of the Czech nationalists: "Oh look, foreigners are trying to destroy our sovereignty! Unite behind me!" He's blowing it out of proportions.
I am not interested in Klaus' personal crusade against the EU and I am not going to support him just because he's the president. I am not a fan of Sarkozy either, but he has every right to criticize him. That's called free speech, Mr. Klaus should get familiar with it.
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I think that Mr. Klaus' stated position is that he will not, as president, sign the instrument of ratification which has already been passed by the national assembly into law until there is unanimity amongst the 27 - in other words once the Irish are on board. That is very different from a flat refusal to ratify. The president's views are well known but they frequently do not coincide with those of the elected government and I would remind you that it is the Czech Republic which takes over the presidency, not the Czech president.
With regard to the UK pound, it is only 15 months ago that British exporters were complaining bitterly that the high value of the pound at roughly 2 dollars was damaging industry. This is an adjustment which was to be expected given the UK's extreme exposure to the global financial crisis. Talk of the currency turning into junk is panic talk which can only fuel the fire. If too many people start thinking this way, you could indeed have a run on the currency which would be dangerous. However, if it settles at about parity with the Euro, this could only strengthen the case for monetary union
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cobber950: The biggest property bubbles in Europe have been not in Ireland or Spain, but in Britain and Iceland, two countries which had perfect freedom to set their interest rates at whichever level they found adequate. It doesn't seem to have helped much, to say the least...
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#16
Petralty, apologies for misspelling the word Czech. Personally I do not have anything against Mr Klaus, but I really cannot subscribe to his comments about the climate change.
#21 cobber950
'Much of the problems we have seen recently have been made far worse by the chinese peg to the dollar and the Germans using a weak euro to drive up substantial trade surpluses in both China and Germany'
So now China and Germany are to blame for our problems? The fact that a shabby one-bedroom flat in London was selling for £300,000 not so long ago is parhaps also the fault of the Chinese government? Your kind of logic reminds me of the saying -'who had a dump in my pants?'.
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RCalvo @20
Perhaps I am like the character Linus from the cartoon strip Peanuts who said "I love mankind, it's just people I can stand".
Seriously though, it is possible to love abstractions - like art, music, literature and whole people and cultures.
How is it possible to visit Italy and not love it? The warm people; the landscape, people and culture; the art, architecture, cuisine and lifestyle, etc. This doesn't mean one accepts or forgives the corruption, political mayhem, or
the Mafia. (Just as one can love a parent or child, yet acknowledge their flaws).
As for "better governance in Europe can and should be achieved through closer integration" this may indeed be the case for nations such as Italy (in fact, were I an Italian it would be an attractive proposition after the 50-plus corrupt and/ineffective governments Italy has had since WW2). The same could be said for some other countries, but this does not apply to Britain with its very long history of independence and institutions of government.
As for the US: the Founding Fathers were founding a new nation. And all subsequent immigrants bought into that ideal: to become part of the American People.
There is, however, no such thing as the 'European people' (or 'demos').
Furthermore, any attempts to artificially or forcefully create one will fail.
Maybe in 2-500 years time there will be one.
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First, I am tired of journalists who simply cannot write an article about Czechs without using puns (Czech, cheques, check, ...).
Second, the office of the President is not nearly as important as of that in France or US.
Similar to Germany, the Prime Minister is the most powerful political figure - so please do not mistake an opinion of the Czech president with an opinion of the whole Czech nation.
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Like one of the commenters, I find Mr Mardell's obsession with Sarko a little bit strange too. I grant he's probably more colorful than the typical EU bureaucrat type, but still.
In France he is really seen as the local Tony Blair: Big on words, low on projects, and even lower on real actions or real results. For what is his actual result:
- Georgia: The Russian tanks and planes went into the country, stayed and left exactly where and when they pleased. Saying Sarkozy created the ceasefire document is like saying Bush created the RoadMap in Israel/Palestine.
- Financial Crisis: I don't know if British people realise that Sarkozy was, 6 months ago, trying to push subprime mortgages in France very heavily. His volte-face is quite amazing, although of course it's all in the words. And just because someone is the first to pick up the phone for organising a meeting that everybody knows will happen doesn't mean they are a great leader. In the end all governments did exactly what they wanted and then said it was co-ordinated.
- EU summit: The climate change package is a big joke! As usual, everybody claims they got what they wanted, including the EU.
It really pains me to see that some on this blog's forum seem to truly believe he is a mover and shaker. He is very good at destroying and criticising but all his reforms have so far failed to either be adopted or to produce any effect.
We should remember this is the same Sarkozy who was seen drunk at his first G8 meeting, who visited England like it was Disneyland, who gets invited everywhere by his rich buddies and doesn't even speak English.
He fooled 53% of the French publich (who are beginning to regret it bitterly), don't let him fool you too...
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Re post 15, R Calvo, you say -
'Excuse me very much, but, speaking of "political correctness", I will use the labels I pretty much want to. Many so-called "EU sceptics" are in my view hardcore Europhobes, and "love other European countries" very much like some people "have black/Jewish/gay friends". I find the misuse of the term "sceptic" already galling enough'
The inuendo that equates people who have a different viewpoint to you are similar to the view points espoused by racists, anti-semitics and homophobics is not useful to this debate.
A similarly lazy argument could be to equate those people currently in favour of the direction the elite want to take the E.U. in to Hitler's brown shirts in wanting a united Europe. Such stupid name calling does not help.
We can have a debate about the issues without stigmatising those of a different view point as monsters.
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TomasRadegast @27,
Don't worry Tomas - you'll soon get back that bounce in your step. ;-)
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Sarkozy is a grade A chancer. Going to Czech Republic and berating them about EU flags, shows the level of his pettiness just as he exhibited when the graduate of the US school of New democracy, Sakishvilli decided to become famous just as the rest of us switched on the Olympics. Even Medvedev made him look naive, ill-informed and likely to do more damage. Thank God Putin took pity on him and offered him judo classes.
As Stephen Wall's excellent 2008 book about Britain and the EU shows, the French attitude to all things European is essentially one of cowardice and fear. Cowardice in reading the facts of live to its farmers anout CAP and fear of Germany. maybe if the French and the other
nations had confronted the central issue of matching or surpassing Germany's pre-eminence in industrial output (and this includes the UK), the citizens of Eupoe would be feeling alot less insecure and considerably less vulnerable during this credit crunch.
Sarkozy, the Blair groupie who has latterly become a expert on world affairs, Brown (the economic wizard) and all their stooges have led Europe into a multitude of messes (economic, military-planting misslles in unstable, immature countries is assenine, strategic and social-trying to deny a thousand years of history by diktat) from which individually and collectively, the countries may never recover- and this is just the countries which are not so addicted to being subsidised by the wealthy that they can begin to be economically viable.
Because of the plethora of petty regulations superimposed layer upon layer, few politicians seem capable of having any idea how this wretched construction could ever be unravelled back to being a free trade zone based upon manufactured goods and services which we can sell to the rest of the world at a profit.
Employers have become so constrained to the idea that the workplace should not be a place of production but one of social care and faux niceness which depresses entrepreneurship and enterprise so reducing economic growth even further. Of course, profitability is a concept the EU service brigade wouldn't begin to understand because they know that the sheer cost of their employment is a drain on taxpayers and industry, already taxed to the hilt and as successive unpassed budgets have shown, accountability is an alien concept to anybody in the EU institutions and this is how it will remain until, ine day, the populations in each country see their circumstances depressed/changed to such a stage that they put/elect such personalities as are now ridiculed or rejected as incredible or fantastic.
The unthinking belief in free markets and the wisdom of bankers might just be the catalyst of such a movement to germinate.
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Good grief! Just understand this: Sarkozy and Cohn-Bendit are old, old enemies. Each will take any or every opportunity to do the other down.
That's all that happened here. "No story" here in France.
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"Offended" because the EU flag is not flying over public buildings?
That sums up these Federalists - how long before they start insisting that their flag is flown over all EU "dominion satellite states"?
I have a horrible feeling that the only way the British will be given to express their feelings towards the EU will be through armed struggle - we are denied the vote - denied a say in a modern context about the EU.
Our leaders had better start remembering that this is a democracy - because if they forget it we might as well.
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Klaus is a Don Quijote type of guy. He once fought communism and the Soviet Union. Then both disappeared. Good for us, but bad for him. He never understood pluralist democracy. This did not matter in the 1980s when the fight against communism and the Soviet Union had priority. But his failure to understand pluralist democracy meant that he was subsequently unable to engage constructively in democratic politics. What did he do? He chose the intellectually (and psychologically) easy way out: he replaced communism with climate change and the Soviet Union with the EU. This allows him (and, presumably, his supporters) to continue to fight the fight of the 1980s. Never mind the windmills...
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#33 - BritishInsurgent
Good point - but just remember your leaders - it is not the EU leadership that is forgetting your democracy. It is much closer to home.
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Apparently, according to other British media reports, Nigel Farage also questioned if the EU wanted the EU flag to fly atop Buckingham Palace instead of the Union Jack.
What is the value of a flag? Who really cares what flag flies above Buckingham Palace?
When we have british-born "British" Citizens who want to blow up, maim and/or kill other "British" citizens to what value is a flag to them or their intended victims.
Why on earth does it matter to Nick Farage whether they fly the British Flag or an EU Flag or even the Flags of Iraq or Pakistan where so many "British" citizens (who seem to hate their fellow "British" citizens) appear to hail from!
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#36 - Menedemus
Actually Mr. Farage has not checked his facts. It is only since 1997 when they needed something to fly at half mast for Princess Diana that the Union Flag was flown at all. Up till then, the Royal Standard was flown when the Queen was in residence and nothing flew if she was not.
It is, after all, the Queen's property and, as far as I am concerned, she can fly whatever she likes. I do take your point, however, about those who seem less than enthusiastic about their Britishness until they need the Foreign Office to get them out of trouble in some far flung land.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"It really pains me to see that some on this blog's forum seem to truly believe he is a mover and shaker. He is very good at destroying and criticising but all his reforms have so far failed to either be adopted or to produce any effect."
With respect, that is what movers and shakers might be expected to do.
The frenchman moves and shakes, and veritably hangs it out, to such a significant and constant extent, that a moderate person has trouble choosing where best to stick the pin in their sarko voodoo doll.
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'President Sarkozy has called it an "outrage" and a "wound" that the president of the Czech Republic doesn't want EU flags flying from public buildings.'
I consider it an outrage and a wound that we have the flag of the "EU"-dictatorship flying from public buildings in the UK. I have protested to the Ipswich Borough Council in the past by email with no success. Please would others join my protest.
I consider it an outrage and a wound that I am forced to carry an "EU" passport knowing that "EU"-statistics showed a majority of Brits not wanting one.
I consider it an outrage and a wound that we are to have the Lisbon Treaty forced upon us when we were promised we would have a referendum, when 80% want that referendum and when 70% want to vote NO.
Does Sarkozy care?
I think the answer to that is NO.
Do I care if Sarkozy is outraged?
Yes! I am very pleased.
If we outragae him enough then maybe he will get the message. He is certainly not going to listen to reason and he has no sense of democracy.
If we outrage him enough then maybe he will throw us out. I cannot wait!
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'President Sarkozy has called it an "outrage" and a "wound" that the president of the Czech Republic doesn't want EU flags flying from public buildings.'
I consider it an outrage and a wound that we have the flag of the "EU"-dictatorship flying from public buildings in the UK. I have protested to the Ipswich Borough Council in the past by email with no success. Please would others join my protest.
I consider it an outrage and a wound that I am forced to carry an "EU" passport knowing that "EU"-statistics showed a majority of Brits not wanting one.
I consider it an outrage and a wound that we are to have the Lisbon Treaty forced upon us when we were promised we would have a referendum, when 80% want that referendum and when 70% want to vote NO.
Does Sarkozy care?
I think the answer to that is NO.
Do I care if Sarkozy is outraged?
Yes! I am very pleased.
If we outrage him enough then maybe he will get the message. He is certainly not going to listen to reason and he has no sense of democracy.
If we outrage him enough then maybe he will throw us out. I cannot wait!
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40. At 08:58am on 16 Dec 2008, greypolyglot wrote:
'39. SuffolkBoy2:
"On this website is a distressing report about police violence in Greece:"
...
Anyway, putting your xenophobic rant aside for a moment, you asked for details of EU money for the BBC. I gave the answer on 13 December at #55 on "New European 'No' Party".
May I at least expect the courtesy of an acknowledgement?'
Greypolyglot!
Thank you for supplying me with this information. I had missed it. I apologise for not giving you an acknowledgement.
You referred to my considered opinions based on a substantial amount of evidence as a "xenophobic rant." Please would you give me the apology to which I am entitled or are you like Sarkozy totally over sensitive about yourself and the"EU" and totally insensitive about the wishes of the millions of people in the "EU" who are sick of its arrogance and dictatorship?
I had wanted to get the information from Mark. Has he given it? Have I missed it?
You also wrote:
'Agreed that this is immensely regrettable but are you suggesting that this is endemic to EU states only and that the UK has never seen the normally magnificent British police occasionally "lose it"? If so, you have a short memory.'
I am stating that evidence suggests that this is endemic in many "EU"-states, but not only in "EU" states.
As regards the British police, they are human and have been know to make mistakes. I presume that you are referring to the case of Mr. Menendes. (?)
Under very difficult circumstances, the British police seem to have gotten it wrong. I suggest that this is a rarity in the UK. All the evidence I have suggests that many continental policemen are routinely unnecessarily aggressive to the extent of being frequently fascist.
I recently observed some British police officers dealing with a large violent man. The had him sat down and restrained him very gently. All the time I observed them they seemed to be using methods of restraint similar to those which I have seen used in a very, very special school for very, very unfortunate children who sometimes get violent.
The man appeared to be under the influence. Occasionally he would try to start fighting again and they would just push him back so that he could not get up.
The "meat wagon" arrived: Three more police officers in a large van with two cages at the back. They got him to the cage and sort of got him in but then he started fighting again so that they could not close the door. One of them did something so they were able to close the door and off it went. There was no screaming, no abuse, no hitting, no use of guns. It was incredibly civilised.
Those British police officers were a credit to themselves, their police force and their country.
I don't believe that the Italian police would have handled it like that. I don't want them or the European Gendarmes landing in the UK. I don't want to be in a political union with them.
Pizza - YES!
"EU" - NO!
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You Europeans are so silly. You'd think two massive wars would have convinced all of you to maybe say, "Well, we're not really that different afterall. Maybe we should unite to help further progress the economies of our nations and prevent further conflicts from occurring on this continent." But no. All of you are still wrapped up in this 'Long live the queen!' and 'Rule Britannia!' nonsense. Don't worry though, I'm sure Europe will survive the future onslaught of massive overpopulation in Asia which will create a huge surge in illegal immigration into Europe. Oh yea, let's not forget the muslim extremists either!
-Au Revoir from your old American pals from across the lake! (At least we have two oceans to defend ourselves.)
P.S. - Good luck with those faith schools and Sharia laws in the future!
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24,25
I am not blaming the Chinese and German govts for Britain problems. Both of of these countries have acted as they saw fit in their national self interest.
The point I was making was that without the mechanism of floating exchange rates helping to make goods cheaper/more expensive with the weakening/strengthening of economies, ultimately every one suffers, as is happening now.
The same is true of creating a single justice system from numerous different national justice systems,which have developed according to the histories of the individual countries and their constitutional requirements
A common Eu defence force has to reconcile the neutrality of Ireland with willingness of the British to use a fully professional armed forces. Every country has constructed their armed forces according to their willingness to fund them,how they plan to use them and willingness to go into combat.
Afghanistan, Iraq, former Yugoslavia and many others have all shown the impossibility of creating such a force
Whether the Euphiles like it or not,when push comes to shove, all members of the EU act in their own interests, regardless of others, looking only to maximise what they can get out, while minimising what they put in and that will never change
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Re: 31
For the sake of accuracy, Sarkozy did not go to the Czech Republic to lecture Klaus on the EU flag.
It was Cohn-Bendit who visited Klaus. Sarko spoke from Strasbourg.
About your comments on coming back to the free-trading zone: this may be a tempting idea for the UK who has always considered itself the centre of the universe. However, for the Central and Eastern European countries, as well as for most small EU states it is crucial the the EU remains a strong political organisation (especially when Russia is showing its muscle again).
As to your opinion on the cost of EU bureaucracy: do you know that New York City employs 300,000 civil servants while the EU institutions 30,000?
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Mr. Basset @ 29, thank you for confirming my personal rule of thumb that the more someone rails about other people's "political correctness", the more thin-skinned he's likely to be himself.
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Re post 46, Mr Calvo, not sure what you are saying, I never mentioned 'political correctness', I was quoting what you said. What I am saying is that I would like a robust debate in this area but that does not have to resort to name calling :-)
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#46, RCalvo,
Are we speaking the same language here as I read post "29 to see what jordanbasset was railing about and discovered he was simply musing and suggesting insulting people of different views to yourself is counter productive, hardly railing off I'd say.
Re Sarkozy,
I was talking Yesterday to a friend who lives in France and the views he's heard there have been that the French think Sarkozy's done a good job for the EU presidency and a disastrous job as president of France. If true it is of no surprise that he rails off at Klaus for something totally insignificant since he's about to have to return to the job that he really doesn't want and which he's been failing at, making him unlikely to win a second term. This is a man suffering from "small man syndrome" who desperately wants to be the first EU president and a world leader since otherwise he will be yet another 'has been' who'll end up as an EU commissioner.
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Dear Mssrs. Basset, "Buzet",
Please check post 8, where threnodio did mention political correctness and post 9, where Mr. Basset agreed.
I'd also like to know where I've resorted to "name calling". Methinks thou doth protest too much.
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#49 & #15, RCalvo,
jordanbasset has already eloquently pointed out in his reply #29 i.e. "The inuendo that equates people who have a different viewpoint to you are similar to the view points espoused by racists, anti-semitics and homophobics is not useful to this debate."
BTW post 9 (not 8) from threnodio is very accurate and rightly points out the modern day curse of having an -ism combined with political correctness, or to put it another way 'positive discrimination'. The latter term seems to becoming ever more to the forefront these days in all spheres of everyday life, which is regrettable since 'positive discrimination' has never created the desired effects, it just exasperates those on the negative end even more. We also have to remember that it is not only used in the UK, it is heavily in EU thinking as well with the 'one size fits all' approach shown today by the 48 hour working vote.
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Re post 49, Mr Calvo, my last post on the subject of political correctness, still do not see how I was rallying against it. To clarify my own views, I do not think political correctness is useful as a term because of it's negative connotations. I do think politeness and consideration for others costs nothing. Buzet 23 in post 48 summarises my views very accurately
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CZ_Moravan wrote:
"You Europeans are so silly. You'd think two massive wars would have convinced all of you to maybe say, "Well, we're not really that different afterall. Maybe we should unite to help further progress the economies of our nations and prevent further conflicts from occurring on this continent." But no. All of you are still wrapped up in this 'Long live the queen!' and 'Rule Britannia!' nonsense. Don't worry though, I'm sure Europe will survive the future onslaught of massive overpopulation in Asia which will create a huge surge in illegal immigration into Europe. Oh yea, let's not forget the muslim extremists either!
-Au Revoir from your old American pals from across the lake! (At least we have two oceans to defend ourselves.)
P.S. - Good luck with those faith schools and Sharia laws in the future!"
You know how low you have sunk when americans start calling you warlike and in danger of religious intolerance.
But this guy has a point. Canada ought not be tolerated as an independent state, and Mexico should be brought into the grand state of California at once, to balance the underpopulation there.
And he is, fundamentally, correct about european security.
When Russia joins Europe, then the USA could celebrate European security.
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"the French attitude to all things European is essentially one of cowardice and fear. "
Cowardice and fear?! The french where attacked three time by Germany in eighty years, yet it was them who extended a friendly hand towards the Germans, and that's cowardice and fear?! Odd, I thought it was insanely kind and mature of them...but hey, that's typical English francophobia for you ! You people never cease to amaze me ! Say, talking about fear and cowardice...how would you call a country who follows the US in a illegal war only because it's scared to death at the idea of disappointing their very, very, very big brother ?!
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Dear Mssrs. Basset, Buzet,
You both seem awfully quick to feel attacked by my "innuendo". I merely was pointing out the obvious parallel between those people who say:
"I am not a racist, indeed I have black friends."
And those who say:
"I am not against Europe, indeed I love (some) other European countries."
Both sentences involve some very lazy logic. The first fallacy is that love or appreciation for an individual in a set is incompatible with a deep prejudice against the whole set. One may well "love Italy" (at least as a holiday destination, rather than the country as a whole), despise "those Continentals who waste our tax money", and yet not see the rather obvious contradiction. We've seen some examples of that in the comments in this blog.
As I've already explained in my more interesting discussion with MaxSceptic, I also have some trouble with the concept of loving an abstract entity like a country. When you say that you love an entire country, what do you actually mean? Do you mean loving each and every individual and institution in that country, as well as every point in its geography? I suspect not. I certainly would have trouble feeling such an all-embracing love even for my own country. In the context of "I love country X", it usually rather means that you enjoy the occasional visit and/or its cooking. At best this "love" may extend to some distinguished literary or artistic works. Such feelings which isn't at all incompatible with deep-seated xenophobic prejudice, after all. Or wouldn't you find the sentence "I have nothing against Indians, indeed I love curry" utterly ridiculous?
This is why, when you say that you "love other European countries", I'd like you to clarify what you mean by that. Otherwise, your protestations of cosmopolitism sound rather unconvincing. Do you love "other European countries" with the same intensity as you "love" your own, for starters?
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#53, Cracklite,
Well, I think the first statement was not correct as it probably should have said "the French attitude to all things European is essentially that Paris is the centre of the known universe".
This is one of the first things I was told when I first came to live in the French speaking part of Belgium. After that, regarding 'fear', you should remember that France is a country of strong opposing views that has a history of revolting. In WWII there were as many for the Germans as against them, and it's hard to find anyone in any country that trusts them to this day, and that's what I've found from living in Europe for 18 years and it's not been English I've spoken to.
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#54, RCalvo,
A much more reasoned answer and one worth contributing to, I didn't feel attacked by your comments, I simply grew up very close to Brixton and encountered the sayings of chairman Livingston in the 70's where often even members of his own party were called fascist or racist. Since then I've had an instinctive dislike at the use of this sort of label as means of subjugating others to a viewpoint.
On your final paragraph, I might like to add that having lived and worked and travelled in many EU countries there are always plus points and negative points about any country. In general it is rare to find ordinary people that not friendly and agreeable, however one common factor across all the countries I've known is that everyone hates their leaders (politicians). Therefore I would qualify your comments to say that I like many EU countries and their peoples but I dislike their leaders and that especially applies to the UK and the EU (commissioners and council of ministers).
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Re post 54, Mr Calvo, at the risk of this turning into what I did or did not say I guess you are referring to my below post -
'At 3:05pm on 16 Dec 2008, jordanbasset wrote:
I agree, which was the point of my post. For too long people who have a cautious view of the E.U have ben labelled as europhobes etc. Those in favour labelled as europhiles. The reality is, as you say, many E.U. sceptics love other european countries, valueing the diversity we find there.'
Again this was in reference to another post, I do not think that can translate as saying I love european countries, although it can be said from that post that I value the diversity found in other european countries. Having said that I do 'love' visiting other european countries and have enjoyed myself in those countries. You could argue the use of the word 'love' is overstating the position and peehaps not entirely appropriate, however if that is all you worry about you must have a very good life.
My original criticism about you suggesting a connection between racists, anti-semitcis and homophobic with those who are sceptical of the E.U but 'love' european countries still stands
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I find it amazing how the discussion evolved from the Czech president not hanging the EU flag at the castle to the devaluation of the British pound! :)
However, I wonder what the big deal is if the flag is not there - the Czech Republic is a member of several international organisations, such as NATO or UN, but nobody was ever offended that their flags are not hanging next to the Czech one on public buildings.
I think it's great that Europe is more open, as this creates more opportunities for everyone, but on the other hand we ARE different nations and Europe will never be one superstate like the US. So let's agree on the important issues and let's not argue about silly things like flags!
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To soukucz (58):
Its a big deal if the flag is there or not...
The whole rotation of the EU Presidency is highly symbolic gesture. It symbolizes equality among member states as all member states will at their turn lead the EU and host its summits: no matter on how big or powerful that country is, it has its equal turn at the helm of the EU.
When a country or its leaders or a leader refuses to display EU flags at its turn of EU Presidency, it shows disdain and despise against not only EU, but also against the idea of equal Europe that the rotating EU Presidency symbolizes.
I would also add that in my mind the EU Presidency is a great opportunity for the member state to present itself and lift issues that are important to it. Remember that with current number of member states, it will take 13,5 years until Czech Republic will again host EU Presidency. I would assume that as this is so rare opportunity, there would be many issues that the Czech government and President would want to advantage instead of agitating other member states with rejection of celebration of EU and the rotating EU Presidency and all what it symbolizes.
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To Jukka_Rohila :
I very much disagree on the equality among the member states - the small countries' votes have less weight than that of big countries as the voting system is based on the population. Also, the rights that the citizens of the "new" member states have are not equal to those of the nationals of the "old Europe", just an example is that as a Czech I still do not have the right to work in many of the EU countries and in Britain I have to register with the Home Office and prove that I am employed.
As for symbols, they are powerful and dangerous - until not so long ago we had to display the Soviet flag alongside the Czech one and it's sad that now it feels like we have to do the same with the EU flag.
Our president is not trying to agitate anyone, the EU flag has never been put up at the castle and until the delegation visited Prague recently, no one was complaining about it. The Czech people certainly didn't go out in the streets demanding that the EU flag be displayed alongside the Czech one.
The EU presidency doesn't give the countries any special power, it doesn't have any real meaning and it certainly doesn't make the EU members equal.
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Jukka_Rohila @ #59
In fact, the Czechs really do need to make the most of this 6 month opportunity.
The Treaty of Lisbon will end the 6 monthly presidential merry-go-round and, unless a Czech gets the Presidency of the Council at some time in the future, this will be their last shot at influencing the Council of Ministers (other than as a make-weight of simply being one of 27, potentially all different, opinions) for some considerable time.
One may like or dislike President Sarkozy but no-one can deny that his Presidency of the Council of Ministers has not made a difference nor been less than entertaining.
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To soukucz (60):
Being equal doesn't mean being the same. Being equal means that every state can voice its opinions and vote on the table where decisions are made. Being equal means that all states are bound by the same rules and regulations and no single state is above them.
In regards of voting weight, what else would work than voting weight given by the respective population? EU has more or less the same system that the USA has, and I for one haven't heard that states there are unequal.
In regards of rights of citizens I would like to remind you that differences in rights are due to transition period that was designed and taken to not only protect the old EU member states from uncontrolled immigration, but also protecting new EU members from the peril. The idea is to avoid teachers, lawyers, etc.. valuable members of new member states on immigrating to old member states to do just handy work, to prevent new members states on loosing their valuable human resources. By having the transition period, new member states can advantage their economies and make it less enticing for people to abandon their jobs and leave for the west.
As for the symbols, you can't compare symbolism of Soviet Union and the European Union in the same paragraph. With Soviet Union there was no choice. With the EU the people had the choice. The people in Czech Republic very much knew where they were joining. The ascension treaty included things as joining the Euro etc.. EU wasn't then just a club of countries, it was already an ever closer union marching towards a federation. For other members it looks very strange that a country that just recently joined EU, with full knowledge on what it is, doesn't want to celebrate on its turn as EU presidency.
The EU presidency doesn't give any special powers, but what it gives is a special chance on having publicity and symbolical power that otherwise wouldn't be there. For example in the presidency of France, President Sarkozy was the face of the European Union not only in Georgian crisis, but also in G20 negotiations and leading to solve European banking problems. The EU presidency is real chance for a country to give its contribution for the European integration and raising issues and views close to it into public.
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To Menedemus (61):
Oh no! ...of course the Lisbon Treaty ends the tradition, I just hadn't associated that change with having a elected Council of EU President... If I'm forgetting and not associating things now, I can't wait to get old, I will be daft to the bone.
I have to say that now when I'm acknowledging the change, to me its a shame that this tradition of rotating presidency or lets say rotation of being in the public eye goes away. I would say that its very nice tradition especially not just to power hungry old colonial powers, but to small member states as well.
Maybe we could have the actual President rotating his or hers office to different member state for every 6 months. While continuing the tradition of rotating presidency, it would make sure that only those who really really want the post will apply for it. ;-)
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To Jukka_Rohila :
As much as I like the idea of a united Europe, where people can move and work freely (more or less), I do see flaws in the whole system. And one of the flaws is the voting system. Yes, it is very much like the American system, but that does not make it right. The Americans are one nation, they are proud of it and the voting system by population works there. Europe is a conglomerate of states and I don't think that many of us feel "European" - each of us comes from their country, have their traditions, their language, their history. The voting system by population seems certainly very democratic, but I find it unfair, as the small countries will be able to express their opinion, but hardly ever it will be heard or have any influence. I cannot offer an alternative system, but I find the existing one not adequate.
As for the fear that a massive wave of immigrants would flood western Europe, it was quite exaggerated. There were only 3 countries that opened their markets to the new accessing countries and half a million Poles who "invaded" Britain were a very small percentage out of the total of 40 million. Had the other countries allowed these workers in as well, the number of people seeking opportunities abroad would have been spread more equally and Britain would not have to cope with such large numbers of immigrants.
As for the Soviet and the EU flag - the comparison is not about the way the Czech Republic ties with the USSR or the EU, but simply about being "forced" to display a symbol. I hope the time will never come when we are going to be asked to display solely the flag of the EU, because that would certainly be a strong symbol. We might be united for some things, but our diversity will remain for others.
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To soukucz (64):
In regards of the voting system. The small countries can have their voices heard by either allying with a bigger country that has the same interests or grouping with other small countries into a voting group. Remember that Germany and France only account for 29,6% of the population, and Germany, France, UK and Italy together account for 53,9% of EU population. Usually Germany and France while agreeing on many issues have still their differences. UK is usually against many things that Germany and France suggest, and Italy is there for a compromise. There is usually always a disagreement between the big countries and the small countries can make use of this to get a compromise satisfactory to them.
I would also want to note that without the EU, without current rules, it would be wild west in European affairs and that would mean that big countries would just walk over the small ones.
In regards of immigration. Half a million Poles immigrating to UK is a big deal. Its approx 1,31% of the country's population, but its 2,5% of the labor force and having a 2,5% change in under few years is a very big deal. What it means that in Poland there is in some fields shortage of workforce, it means that in Britain there is shortage of housing etc.. we should also note that in Poland there is a whole generation of children growing up without their mothers and fathers who are working in other EU countries, that is a societal cost and in following years the cost of having parents away from home can only grow. Now just imagine what the situation would have been if all old EU countries would have permitted immigration without restrictions. And remember that after transition period these restrictions are lifted.
In regards of the EU flag. Of course its not obligatory to display EU flag, but what you have to note that while you are free to decide on waving it or not, that doesn't mean that you are free from consequences of your actions. If other countries and other EU citizens see it as important for the EU flag to be waving there along the Czech flag and they get their feelings hurt and that has its own consequences.
In regards of the EU and nations. Of course we are a very diverse group of people, but what is important that we share the same history, we share same principle values and we share the view that our future destinies are tied together, that makes us Europeans.
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To Jukka_Rohila :
You are confirming exactly what I was saying: the decisions are made by the big countries: Germany, France, UK, Italy. The small countries cannot do anything else but pick someone's side, but their vote doesn't really make much difference.
Regarding the issue with the Polish immigration, my point is that had more of the old countries opened their labour market to the new countries, those half million Poles would not been in the UK only, but spread around the other countries too. It is only 1.25% of the Polish population that decided to work abroad and that is indeed a very small percentage. The fact that there are parents who left their children behind is sad and will without doubt have consequences on those children, but it certainly isn't a whole generation that is affected by this problem. Most of the Poles (and of course all the other nationals from the new accessing countries) who came to work to UK are young people without children and many of them have their children here.
Regarding the flag, when I started typing my first comment, I was mostly amused by the fact that such a small thing like displaying the EU flag can cause so much concern to some people. Now I am more and more convinced that it's a good thing that Mr Klaus is so stubborn and doesn't want to put that flag up. It's a symbol: we are a small country, our vote might not have much weight, so far we don't have exactly the same rights as the other countries - but our president can still decide on the flag that will be displayed on the castle (which is also a symbol - that of Czech sovereignty). I don't think we are Europeans, we are Czech, English, Welsh, Scottish (even within Britain many people don't feel like one nation!), French, German, etc. and that will never change. So let's work together, but let's also keep our individual differences... and flags.
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To soukucz (66):
Regarding decision making. When a small country is picking a side, it can negotiate with other small countries with similar interest and with big countries on what kind of compromise can be made or what kind of concessions can be had. That is a very dynamic environment where a small country can make difference if it is involved and takes part of the process actively.
For example today our main newspaper Helsingin Sanomat printed that EU Commissions plans on structural funds for 2014 after would cut funding for Finland, Sweden, Lithuania, Denmark and Ireland, and would give more structural funds especially to southern and central European member states. This is more than unacceptable and if the Commission keeps its plans, this countries form a coalition and start lobbying larger EU countries, especially UK and Germany to take the same side side on this issue.
Regarding the issue of Polish immigration, my point was that without transition period there would have been more immigration which could have given a heavy blow on the Polish economy and society.
Regarding nationality. First of all, I can assure you that when you leave Europe or are with non-Europeans you will note the difference. We are Finnish, English, Welsh, etc... but in the same time we are also Europeans. Being European doesn't mean that one would loose his or hers local identity, what it means is to have a more common identity besides nationality.
Regarding flags. Nobody is saying that the Czech couldn't wave their flag, what I and many others are pointing out that besides the Czech flag there should be EU flag waving also. The EU flag is not a substitute for national flag, its a complementary on it.
Regarding Klaus. In my opinion president Klaus is doing a disservice to his country. By being openly hostile to EU what he is doing is not earning any sympathy or influence neither to the Czech Republic nor its people.
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soukucz @ #66
From my perspective the immigration of the Polish people into the UK has been a good thing for the British society.
We have Polish restaurants and shops and other high street businesses popping up all over the place and the one thing that can be said about these Polish immigrants is that they do come here to work.
Thus your suggestion that the other EU Countireis who put a block on the Polish is to their loss and to Britain's gain.
Nevertheless, the UK is as guilty of being partial as we have in place blocks or limits on Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants.
I think the British past experience of immigration since the end of the Second World War is the problem in that not all immigrants to the UK have shown a genuine attempt to thrive through their own efforts nor have they tried to integrate into the British way of life preferring to segregate themselves and lead separate lives and follow their own customs without adaptation or compromise.
Nevertheless, immigration can be very successful as can be withnessed by the numbers of Italians and Polish who stayed in the UK after 1945 and they are all but fully integrated and, in many ways, more British than the pre-War British.
Sadly this cannot be said of all other immigrants who have arrived in the UK since the 1950s and have never really committed to being British and just wish to enjoy the fruits of the post-War Liberal-Socialist society that Britain developed from the ashes of the War.
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I lived in the Czech Republic for two years with Mr Klaus as President.
He has always appeard to be xenophobic and outspoken against foreigners and all things foreign. Particuliarly German.
His recent comments do not surprise me.
However, what saddens me is the apoproval of the Czech people, who for the most part, seem to celebrate his views.
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To Mendemus:
I do see the Polish immigration following the accession of new member states as a positive thing (and not only Polish, also other nationals came to Britain, including myself). However, many British people have the impression that these foreigners are taking away their jobs and I think that this is due to the fact that so many of us came here in such a short period of time. I am convinced that had the other countries opened their borders to us like Britain did, the number of those who wanted to work abroad would not have been bigger, the immigrants would have spread across 15 countries instead of 3 and the Brits would not feel so strongly about it.
I think that "good" immigrants should work hard, learn the language and respect the culture and laws of the country they live in and I think that most of the people who came to Britain from Poland, the Czech Republic and other eastern European countries do that.
I do hope that the limitations imposed on Bulgaria and Romania will be lifted soon not only in Britain, but also in all the other EU states, as I wish them to be able to seize new opportunities in different countries.
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HappyDob #69
Two years in Czech Rep and you figure that most people adore Klaus? Where were you staying?
I live in Czech Rep and a lot people seem to think he's an arrogant fool.
Regarding the actual article though
Considering the Czechs were forced to display the flag of the USSR for 40 years it's not a huge suprise that they resent being told the must display EU flags on public buildings.
Not that I'm comparing the EU to the USSR, far from it. However, being told you must display this Eu flag does not really go with people that can remember being told they must display the red flag...symbology is different but the order is the same...
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#70 - soukucz
#71 - strcprstskrzkrk
I agree completely with both of you. The influx of eastern Europeans into the Britain has been entirely beneficial both to the economy and to cultural diversity. Yes there have been occasional social problems but these have involved small numbers in areas of high concentration and often are more to do with misunderstandings about the law than deliberate acts.
However - strcprstskrzkrk - I now live in Hungary where the same attitude to the former Soviet domination is just as keenly felt. Here, the EU flag is flown on public buildings and nobody seems to have a problem with this. Possibly this is simply that, like the Czechs, Hungarians had no choice when it came to Soviet symbolism whereas they joined the EU of their own free will and have no reason to see the EU flag as sinister.
I have come to love my new country dearly and celebrate the way my hosts cherish their recently found freedom. I am sure it is the same in your country.
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42. SuffolkBoy2:
"You referred to my considered opinions based on a substantial amount of evidence as a "xenophobic rant." Please would you give me the apology to which I am entitled or are you like Sarkozy totally over sensitive about yourself and the"EU" and totally insensitive about the wishes of the millions of people in the "EU" who are sick of its arrogance and dictatorship? "
You object to your "considered opinions" being described as a "xenophobic rant" and then proceed to accuse the EU of arrogance and dictatorship! Sometimes I seriously doubt that we are attributing the same meanings to common words of the English language.
I doubt any apology from me will do anything to make you feel better but in the spirit of the season I'll gladly offer it anyway.
Incidentally, are you happier now that you know how much money the BBC has received from the EU and for what purposes? Are you satisfied that the BBC's integrity has not been sold off or is the EU still the "evil empire" for you?
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I am saddened that nobody realises that it was not about the EU flag.
The issue was the way the delegation talked to President Klaus. They simply took out the flag and said "why aren't you hanging this in your office" and then "you will sign the treaty of lisbon. I don't care about your opinion about it".
Then a member said said that President Klaus shouldn't contact the Irish opposition leader who opposes the lisbon treaty.
The tone and statements were totally authoritarian. There was no discussion-just simple demands and orders to which President Klaus naturally reacted with opposition.
I might also add that the Irish member told president Klaus that there is no need to hear what Irish people think, because he as their PM knows at best what Irish people think.
The transcripts show how authoritarian the EU elite is and how it simply doesn't care about the population. They believe they are the only ones who are right, and if the people don't go their way, they will be forced to-of course by political not military or police means-but neverthless forced to.
It doesn't occur to them that perhaps the people know better what the lisbon treaty is then they. The fundamental point is that the elite now things it rules over the unenlightened and it is their duty to enlightened them, not to hear them.
And this means totalitarism. It's a new kind, but still it is one.
Last point-Klaus didn't compare EU to Soviet Union. The delegation did-it was a telling fraudian slip-they accused him of being compared to Soviet Union-but in fact he did not. They simply told what they were likely thinking. And it is telling that even they now how EU looks like.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Sadly, it is not just the Czechs who do not have the EU flag on public buildings. It is extremely rare in the UK (especially in England - it seems more common in Scotland)
The Queens head issue really is a nonsense in the context of the Euro - each Euro-zone member has its own reverse to its coins; ours could simply feature the Queen's head. And Northern Ireland Sterling bank notes do not feature the Queens head even now, so there is a precedent for not having her head on paper money. They are legal tender throughout the UK of course.
MaxSceptic said @ 26 "There is, however, no such thing as the 'European people' (or 'demos')" By the same argument, there is no such things as the "British people" although politicians keep trying to pretend there is. We are English, Scottish, Welsh or N Irish. The UK is a working example of a multi-national state.
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SuperJulianR @ #76
I was nodding my head in agreement with everything you wrote than you spoilt the whole thrust of your comment by the misuse of one word in your final sentence.
The UK is broken with so many faults within British society, its economy, its welfare provision and its political and judicial systems that, in my view, your last sentence should have been written "The UK is a [poor] example of a multi-national state."
The multi-cultural British society is fragmenting into ethnic grouping and we have the potential for some ethnic groups being in open terrorist revolt against their adoptive country simply due to religious divide and ethnic differences. Britain has a bankrupt economy and a destitute government who are at a loss as to what to do as they already tax their citizens on everything including being dead. To make matters worse this divided nation has reared several generations of feral youth who do not recognise authority, do not accept any moral responsiblity for their behaviour and who are ill-educated to the point of being illiterate.
The UK is far from being a "working" example of a multi-cultural State as it is so broken as to be beyond repair.
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SuperJulianR @76,
The difference is that for nearly 300 years Englishmen, Scotsmen, Welshmen and Irishmen have been willing to fight and die for the Britain.
How many 'Europeans' are willing to fight and die for the EU?
(You can count me out, for a start).
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MaxSceptic @ 78
The British may not want to fight for the EU but it would appear they don't necessarily feel that not all would be willing to fight for their own "Nation State" either?
Perhaps aligned to my somewhat pessimistic view of the Britain of today, the British Army is staffed with troops from foreign countries including Eire, Fiji and, as with one of most recent Afghanistan fatalities, Australia.
The committment to the British Army by stock of indigenous English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish youth is in decline which is, to me a clear demonstration of the lack of feeling of belonging to the British nation felt by the youth of those four ethnic groups. The figures for service people from the immigrant ethnic groups is always a best kept secret as the authorities do not want to show out the real lack of loyalty felt by the adopted citizens towards their new country.
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MaxScepic @ #78
I should however add that my pessimism of the state of Britain today is one thing but the fact is that the majority of people of the nations of the world, many of them knowing nothing about the "Europeans" and their propensity for war and invasion, did leave their homes and families and fought and died for "Europe" and its inhabitants in the Second World War.
The American Cemetary at Cambridge in England and the cemetaries across northern Europe and Italy populated by the heroes of America and Commonwealth countries and non-Commonwealth countries are testament that Europe was worth something to fight for - they did not die in vain - of that I am sure.
However, if they were fighting for Great Britain, then I think they were sold a crock of the proverbial, as their sacrifice has been well wasted!
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To MaxSceptic (78):
*Chuckle*
I don't think that Irish are willing to fight and die for Britain. Last time Irish fought they fought against the British occupiers. In the second world war they were neutral and are still militarily not allied. Before their Independence they were subjugated and oppressed into a point where their native language and culture in practice were destroyed. So I would count Irishmen out. Scots and Welsh were also subjugated and oppressed into submission.
However I would question on how long are the ordinary people in Britain willing to defend the country or to say otherwise the state of United Kingdom?
Why do I ask this question... Well...
The Scottish Independence movement, formation of hostile ethnic groups, lost generations of youths etc.. are all symptoms of an class society on edge of abyss. The upper classes have hoarded money to themselves, they have segregated themselves from the rest of the society, they have pushed the whole country to favor privilege instead of work, they have let the common people rot and the general living standards fall. Why should then any ordinary Briton want to defend the current state or want to be part of it? As I said earlier, Scottish Independence movement and hostile ethnic groups are all seeking for an solution to corrupt state. If the lost generation, the unprivileged someday organize themselves and go to the streets, the current state will fall.
Remember that the revolution in Russia came as a surprise to the upper classes and it was even bigger surprise that the Communist won the fight to take over the country. In todays world both USA and UK are in a edge where another major crisis will take both of these countries into a brink of revolution. In USA nobody knows what that means, in UK it will for certainly mean the collapse of the union.
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Menedemus @79 and 80,
Europe is worth fighting for (and possibly even dying for).
The EU ('European Union') is not.
The two are not synonymous - and you know it.
Jukka_Rohila @81,
Up until 1922 Ireland was - for better or for worse - an integral part of Britain and many thousands of Irishmen fought and died for 'King/Queen and Country'.
You may be surprised to learn that during WW2, when Ireland was neutral, over 90,000 Irishmen (from a small nation of less than 3 million) volunteered to fight in the British armed forces. Many thousands of Irishmen sacrificed their lives.
As for your claim: "Scots and Welsh were also subjugated and oppressed into submission." We English obviously didn't do a good job, else why have we been governed over the years by a plethora of Welsh and Scottish Prime and senior Ministers?
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To MaxSceptic (82):
You said: "As for your claim: "Scots and Welsh were also subjugated and oppressed into submission." We English obviously didn't do a good job, else why have we been governed over the years by a plethora of Welsh and Scottish Prime and senior Ministers?"
It seems that you didn't take a note about the class society. Britain is a class society where the dividing factor is having privilege and not having privilege. The state is being held together by upper classes who are more interested to preserve their privileges and by subjugating ordinary people to submission by fear of external enemy. In this setting the nationality of rulers are not important, the only important factor is belonging to right class and having needed connections. The subjugation, oppression and destruction of minority nations and their languages and cultures are just a side show in the subjugation and oppression of the people living in British islands.
This isn't even a new idea. Both the novel 1984 and comic V for Vendetta tell about the British society and state extended to their extremes.
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Jukka_Rohila @83,
I hear the grating of shifting goal-posts....
You're writing rubbish like some 1930s amateur bolshevik or 1980s Old Labour 'militant' . It is evident that you really don't understand British society - or literature [sic] - at all.
1984 is about (Stalinist) Socialism taken to an extreme.
V for Vandetta is about fascism (aka National Socialism) taken to an extreme.
If you want to learn all about the British class system try reading some Wodehouse, or Stella Gibbons' Cold Comfort Farm.
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To MaxSceptic (84):
No. Stalinism in 1984 and Fascism in V for Vendetta are just side shows. The real issue is the mechanism of control: upper class above the common people using fear of outside world as an tool of control. Both of this worlds take their source of inspiration from the actual British society.
If we look at the current British society, its easy its mechanism of control are similar to their fictional counter parts.
There is the external enemy in the form of EU. EU is blamed for democracy deficit when actually its the UK that has democracy deficit. EU is blamed on favoring continental countries: the UK is in trouble because its the only one who follows EU rules, its the only one who does actual free trade and etc.. when in fact its the policies of UK that has made the country troubled in economy. EU is just the newest target of organized hate besides French and Germans.
Then of course we have the British class system. I think its enough to note that the cross generational economic mobility is even poorer in the UK than it is in the USA which itself is very poor compared to continental Europe or to Nordic countries.
Now if we go back to the original question on British defending Britain, I'm sorry but when you remove the external enemy, the boogie man that is keeping the nation together, is there really real defense will in the common people? Do they really want to protect their upper classes? Do they really want everything based and ruled by London? I doubt it very much.
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Re post 85, Jukka, I was trying to pin down what you remind me of, then it came to me, you remind me of myself at about the age of 14-16. That is not meant to be an insult, I certainly could not argue the rights and wrongs of Finland even at the level of a 14 year old. So well done for coming so far.
However, your fascination with the class system controlling everything in this post and in other posts newscorp being the villain is a little tiring. Life is seldom as simple as that and certainly in the U.K. it is not.
Re hating Germans and French, I am sure there are a small minority who do(would venture a similar minority in other countries believe in such xenophobic rubbish). I would say the large majority of British people do not. Yes there is good natured rivalry and humour, but hate no. Some times we do need to grow up and look at the real world, not the world you like to imagine
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To jordanbasset (86):
I take your note as an compliment.
Now about the class system. I think the problem here is more or less definition and recognizing of it. When one mentions class system, people usually associate it to days of Jane Austin novels or to class struggle of working classes versus bourgeoisie. These lead people to either completely reject the notation that there is a class system or undervalue its effect.
In modern societies the dividing factor is pure money, nothing else. Money decides where and how you live. It decides where and how your children are schooled. It decides does your child go to a public or private school. It decides does your child go to a public or private university. It gives or denies benefits of leverage. The thing to notice here is that money segregates people into different communities, into different schools, etc.. as people are segregated they dive into different sub-cultures that have different valuations and philosophies under them. The more segregated the society is, the more distance there is between different subcultures.
Now what I just said more or less pictures every country in earth. The difference is that other states, like in example Nordic states, take active measures to equalize people starting from the childhood. They take active measures to mix people from different social groups, they try to actively prevent segregation. In practice this activity leads these countries to have greater intergenerational economic mobility: parents income has less effect on the future of their children. The big impact of this is that as distances between different groups of people don't grow big or different groups are very mixed, the cultural distance of people is short and different sub cultures are closer to the main culture. In other words: the nations is more unified.
In other countries like in the UK and USA the state doesn't actively try to prevent segregation. That leads to different groups of people having less and less common together and having more and more differences. When you repeat this from generation to generation, what you get is strongly segregated society where ones background more or less dictates ones future position in the society. This means that different groups and their subcultures live more or less independently from other parts of society.
In practice what this segregation of the society has in UK has meant is that the upper classes have more or less adopted policies, or lets say continued traditions, of isolation from the continental Europe, advocation of transatlantic co-operation, free trade, Austrian school economics, etc.. They have pushed UK more and more back into the social, trade and foreign policies that it had in the 19th century, more and more apart from the rest of the Europe. So theme here is culture and the group think that goes along it.
Now you might not accept that there is a common culture in upper classes that are making it to do decisions in a certain way. However I would like to note for you to take look at an other famous example of group think and culture gone wrong, namely Nazi Germany. The Nazis weren't the bad guys, they were just the manifestation of the culture in upper and middle classes that more or less supported ideas of racial superiority, eugenics, centralization of power, etc.. It was the culture, its ideas and valuations, that in the end created Nazis and their deeds. In the same way, the upper and upper middle classes in UK have been for long exercised group think and have held a common culture with common ideas and valuations.
Now of course not all Brits hate EU or French or Germans, but that is the same as saying that not all Germans hated jews or thought themselves to be superior to under-humans. Actions however speak more. Nazis took Germans into a trip of genocide and mass killings. The upper classes of UK have taken Brits to isolationist policies, active sabotaging of EU and European integration, act of economic warfare in invasion and occupation of Iraq etc..
You have a class society, that is a fact. Your ruling classes are very much out of touch with reality and with the people. They are out of touch with European integration. They are out of touch with social problems and unrest. They are out of touch with the economy. All this is going to someday explode. Maybe not to this economic crisis, but you are heading down with the USA and someday the bottom will come up, if you don't reform your society and the culture that directs it.
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Jukka_Rohila @87,
I guess must be a puppet of the ruling classes and that my opposition to further EU expansion (aka 'European integration') is a result of social conditioning.
On the other hand, it is more probable that you are completely delusional.
And, recalling your position on a variety of subjects such as allied 'war crimes' I should also add 'obsessive' in your loathing of Britain and America. Since you insist of expressing your distorted views, in English, on a British flagship website, I can only assume that this is a result of some great inferiority complex.
Or perhaps you are a glutton for punishment.
I mean, who here, would give you the time of day if
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To MaxSceptic (88):
Brain washed would be more or less convenient term to describe the general state of affairs in both UK and US, but puppet of the ruling classes suites fine too.
On a note about delusional or not, distorted or not, maybe what you should do is to counter my claims if you can. I however very much doubt that you can.
Now if we go to, as you say obsessive loathing of Britain and America, I would point out that what looks like loathing to you is actually pointing out the facts. There were major allied war crimes in WW2 by allies. The Iraq war was about getting Iraq back on using US dollars. The economies of UK and US have both failed. These are all facts, not views or opinions, they happened and we have the reality as a witness to that.
Now what goes for me on actively taking part to this blog and forum is that is gives a very good chances to discuss and argue about the affairs of the EU, but other worldly affairs too, and that is great way to challenge and develop ones one thinking. Inferior complexity it isn't, thats deserved for Swedes.
PS. Punishment... any time of day... bla bla bla... thats empty promises... its in the same line of few comments that I have seen from others on "Oh sure, I would any day join the army to defend Britain, if needed" which is just empty promises as if they really meant it they would have served in the army, but as they are not... its one thing to talk the talk and another thing to walk the walk.
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