Germany loses revs
It's cold and early and Detlef Fendt repeats a morning ritual, heaving himself onto the side of his 28-year-old BMW motorbike and jumping with all his might on the kick-start. 
It takes a few goes, but eventually the bike roars into life. After all, this is the sort of solid reliable machine that makes German goods a household name for quality. It's that good name that means Germany is the world's top exporter. China may take the title soon, but for the moment Germany is still a world-beater.
Detlef is part of that success story. For the last 40 years he's made machine tools for Daimler cars at the Berlin plant. He started work when he was 16 and is now the plant's main union representative for IG Metall. But this year, thanks to the world credit crunch, he'll be getting an unwanted seasonal break from his early morning ritual. The plant is closing down for an extra-long Christmas break, from mid-December to mid-January, because of falling orders. 
He tells me: "At the moment we are in a distribution crisis - the automobile industry is not selling enough cars and lorries.
"For our company it means a production stop for four weeks from mid-December till mid-January. The workers are very sceptical because they are worried about losing their jobs. Short-term workers are already leaving. So the workers ask 'What will happen to us?' There is a huge uncertainty."
Consumer confidence was dented in Germany long before the credit crunch, and despite his union's recent deal it is not returning.
"We didn't get more money in our pockets in the last months. Not only petrol got more expensive - also gas and electricity, running expenses are increasing. We have to look at every penny. We, the ones who build the cars, can't afford to buy them anymore. We are afraid of what will happen."
There's one curious thing. Detlef is clearly politically very committed: in his small kitchen there is a portrait of Lenin on the wall, and in his sitting room a portrait of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl. A CD of the Red Army Choir sits on top of the stereo. Communism is clearly as much of a passion as sailing: he has his own boat, and there are lots of pictures on the walls of him skippering it. He tells me that sailing was a working man's sport before the rich discovered it. But when I try to draw him on the political consequences of the crisis for next year's election he merely says that a Christian Democrat/Liberal coalition would be a bad thing, and a Social Democrat/Left Party one would be better. He seemed a very mild, apolitical revolutionary.
Germany is now in recession and the figures were worse than economists were predicting. Equally bad statistics for the whole of the European Union are expected today. While consumers in America feel cowed, while Asia is jittery, the rest of Europe watches fearfully and the biggest economy in Europe will continue to shrink.
CommentsSign in
You need to sign in to contribute to this page. If you're new to BBC Blogs, creating your membership is quick and easy.
I have every sympathy with Detlef.
He must be really happy that the EU has forced the European Car Manufacturing industies to take on extra costs despite the current massive downturn in the global car industy sales figures where even the huge American Car Makers are now looking for US Government intervention just to survive and even their survival is not guaranteed.
Still the doom and gloom Green lobbyists will be delighted - no car sales means a cleaner global environment. Doesn't it?
If not, then Detlef's job insecurities and probable job loss in this recession has just been made worse by the environmentalists adding to the pain through their insufferable dogmatism!
Complain about this comment
well its gemrnay own fault joining the euro cause they handed over the control of there currencey and ecomomy to the EU let the good time roll for germany you deserve what you get
Complain about this comment
What's going to interest me the most about this recession is whether or not the Euro and the EU will survive it. Considering that both will be ridiculously easy targets (along with the immigrants) for the blame game. Whether it's true or not is of course a different thing.
Complain about this comment
I'm pleased that for once the truth about the various economies has had to be released, we've seen so much spin about how the Eurozone would protect the economies and how the countries were well placed to survive the storm that it's welcome the truth has come out. Now what people have been seeing and experiencing in their real lives has been translated into the economic figures and I for one am pleased that we can finally put to bed the illusion that the Euro will prevent a recession, it hasn't because it never could, it has certain benefits but protecting from recession is not one of those.
This article is interesting and I also know that in the Charleroi area of Belgium a number of steel related factories are being closed for two months due to their being no demand. Whether the now long suffering car industry and it's related industries like steel will recover is the big question. After all in the current crisis who is foolish enough to spend what cash they have on an overpriced new car when most cars are well capable of lasting a long time these days. Hard luck you green eco terrorists we'll just keep on using our pollution producing old cars.
PS. Ticape, I doubt the Euro will be under threat as it's too late to change now that there's a recession and little would be gained by such a change in any case, the damage has already been done. As for the so called EU, I hope that it's direction is under threat and that a new Europe can emerge that is different from the current EU and more like a Social Europe with open borders and nation states. What I do not want is a pseudo Socialist Federal EU along the lines of what the Franco-Germanic alliance are trying to force us into.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (4):
Euro doesn't save from recession or depression, but it will save from quick turns of the economy. In Finland many have praised for god that we are in Eurozone now and not in the open see. So many in this country have suffered for too many times of devaluation of currency and raising of interest rates to the roof. I say thank god for Euro and thank god for ECB which doesn't just gave in the pressure of politics.
I should remind you that the recent decrease of interest rates in UK was dictated by the government not by Bank of England. We haven't seen the bottom of this recession and its repercussions, but one thing I know, allowing inflation rates to reach 5% is not healthy.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=19
Complain about this comment
The argument that the EU has forced the car industry to take on extra costs doesn't hold much water. The car industry has known for over a decade that it had to do something about CO2 emissions but hasn't even met its own voluntary targets.
Interestingly, though Daimler sales are down, sales of the fuel efficient smart car are up by almost 12% so far this year.
http://weblog.greenpeace.org/cars/
Complain about this comment
#5, Jukka_Rohila,
You're right about allowing inflation rates to reach 5% is not healthy, what worries me is more that the figures released by all the EU countries are heavily sanitised for public consumption. An awful lot of things get left out of the calculation on spurious grounds so what we hear is almost certainly not the whole story. The Blair and Brown regime has been very active on the manipulation of statistics and whether it is the rate of inflation of the jobless figures they are dubious to say the least. Do I trust the figures of other EU governments, no way my friend, as we don't know the half of what is happening.
What I would love to see is accurate figures for the wealth of the various EU nations (incl GB PLC) and their real reserves. We know a lot of reserves went to the ECB in 98/99 but what actual reserves have the Eurozone countries actually got now. I suspect from a web site I saw some months back that the s**t has yet to hit the fan.
As for the Euro, it's true it is now a stabilising influence and I don't know about Finland but prices in the shops in Belgium are dropping now, so maybe the economies are starting the necessary rebalancing.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (7):
Currency reserves of ECB by countries:
http://www.ecb.int/stats/external/reserves/html/assets_2008-09.en.html
Currency reserve situation in ECB:
http://www.ecb.int/stats/external/reserves/html/index.en.html
If I understood correctly, even thought individual countries still have their currency reserves, they don't have the right to use them with out permission from ECB. At least our prime minister said this when recently Icelandic govermeant negoatiated with all Nordic countries to have loans.
The only interesting thing that I noted from the second web page was that the amount of shorts and longs that the ECB has, has jumped in short time considerably. My education or knowledge at least now doesn't give any answer on what is the meaning of these operations. Does anybody have idea?
Complain about this comment
Germany is much better positioned to pull itself out of the recession than say the UK, which doesn't have much of manufacturing base left.. and BTW is more responsible for the situation we're currently in than most other EU countries.
The Brits have been running their economy like it's monopoly for years, living off the values of the homes they haven't even paid for..
While the Brits were borrowing, the Germans kept on saving....
Germany manufactures and exports more than all the other EU countries put together, so they should be concerned if things are not going right.
I hope Euroland does the right thing and lets the UK sink when it comes knocking on the Euro's door... because it will...
Complain about this comment
#8, Jukka_Rohila,
Strange, those ECB web links seem not to work and the base site seems to be down, maybe there's an emergency manipulation of the figures going on.
As for the reserves, the gold certainly got moved to the ECB as I was working at a central bank during the exercise, but as for hard currency, I don't know these days but I found this description which seems to confirm the ECB control all foreign reserves :- The European Central Bank was created by the Maastricht Treaty on European Union ratified in 1993, which established the European Monetary Union (EMU) and the Euro, the common currency of European countries. The ESCB's tasks are defining and implementing the monetary policy of the European Community, conducting foreign exchange operations to achieve price stability, holding and managing the foreign currency reserves of members states, and promoting stability in the overall financial system.
PS ECB web site is still not responding????
Complain about this comment
Re post 9, what a silly comment re hoping the U.K. sinks. Firstly it is not likely to, although like the rest of the world it will go into recession, just a little later than most of the Euroland countries.
Secondly if it did sink the issues for the E.U. would be catastrophic, just think about what you hope for.
A couple of weks ago there was a thread on here with suggestions that Euroland would some how avoid recession. Hopefully now people will realise how stupid such wishful thinking was.
We will all suffer during this time, Germany with it's reliance on manaufacturing (a ghood thing in normal times) will be paticularly hard hit as markets dry up. But the U.K. is also likely to suffer as much, if not more, due to the housing bubble.
Perhaps we should not be playing politics at this time but looking for world wide solutions.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (10):
I noticed that too. The site actually doesn't seem to be down, but just responding very slowly. It seems to take few minutes for the site to load itself. I noticed that the site seems to employ some fancy Ajax interface components so maybe they are failing or then posting a few links to here contributed for a substantial increase in load (which I can't believe)...
In the mean time I however found out that my tax euros are in good work. I found out that there are web site for kids about Euro.
http://www.euro.fi/e/index.html
They even have a monetary policy game there where you can feel the cool and exciting world of being a central banker! ;-)
Complain about this comment
Mark,
BBC for me meant always a certain level.
Being a European correspondent you
are supposed -I assume -to give us also data on the subject
According to DIW (todays info !!!)
BIP for the 4th Q will show 0,2 rise.
Prognosis for the year 2008 - 1,6-%1,8 BIP rise
Complain about this comment
#11 exactly..
When the UK together with the US excepts its responsibilty for the crisis, rather than taking the we know best attitude.. we might be a bit further on..
They were the countries that said deregulation was best, let the market regulate itself.. huh where are Thatcher & Reagan now..? Also if they hadn't been pumping billions into a illegal war.. and of course, we were told 'Old Europe'... need to get up to date.. oh yeah?
A mere 'house bubble' you call it..? Hhhm..!
It took Germany two major defeats and almost total destruction to learn to be what it is today.. What the majority here secretly admire.
I hope the UK will at last learn that is just a middle-weight offshore country, nothing special, just like many others and learn to act accordingly. That's why I hope that when it is sinking, like the pound currently is.. we Europeans let them stew a bit..
Complain about this comment
Re post 14, quite sad to see such views expressed re letting the U.K. stew, nice to see a spirit of european cooperation coming through. The U.K. will suffer,,as will Euroland, I think we will all be stewing together. Whether you are the carrot or the meat will make little difference.
In the same tone I could say the U.K. will have to reduce it's E.U. net contributions and no longer give hand outs to the likes of France, but I wont because such comments do not help the debate.
Certainly no supporter of the war in Iraq. But again I could say re the money spent, much of it was on arms made in many different E.U. countries. Did not see those countries refusing to supply such arms at the time, too busy taking the money.But of course I wont.
Re the U.K being a middle sized off shore country, do not disagree with you, but what is so bad with that?
Complain about this comment
Re post 14, and my reply at 15, could also say Euroland countries who did not keep to borrowing and spending limits set by the ECB,helped fuel the recession, but of course I wont.
Complain about this comment
#12 Jukka_Rohila,
That's a nice site and it even answers our earlier question as to who controls foreign currency reserves.
The tasks of the Eurosystem are:
* Implementation of monetary policy within the euro area
* Conducting foreign exchange operations and the holding and managing of the official foreign currency reserves of the euro area countries
* Authorisation of the issue of euro banknotes
* Promotion of the smooth operation of payment systems
* Compilation of statistics
* Monitoring of developments in the banking and financial sectors
* Ensuring the smooth flow of communication between the ESCB and the supervisory authorities.
PS. the ECB site is working now maybe they were updating something before.
#14 14, PatienceOver,
Judging by your 'here' comment you are yet another German poster who's living in a dream world. The bubble that if it was made in Germany it's the best burst years ago outside Germany. Germany is only as good as it's manufacturing and export industry but it's been exporting jobs offshore for years which is a major factor in the high unemployment. The UK has a different problem but it is largely a consumer country that imports far more than it exports and if Germany's vital export market collapses even partially, you too will feel the pain, so be careful as you are not at all secure in Germany these days whilst nobody is buying.
#13, zhanetta,
So far almost all future figures are guesses, the BBC has given you the official EU statistics published today and they show the last two quarters had negative growth and likewise did that of Germany. What the German DIW says has to be viewed with some degree of scepticism as nobody knows what is going to happen next.
Complain about this comment
#14 - PatienceOver
This 'blame game' is getting very tedious. Nobody stood over the European banks and forced them at gunpoint to buy toxic debt. They bought it for the same reason that it was sold - sheer greed.
Asking the US and UK to 'take responsibility' is an exercise in futility. The rest of the world has been perfectly happy to grow fat on the profits during the good years and they will pay the price during the bad years.
I do have some sympathy with Germany which, to its credit, has persisted with its manufacturing sector while other economies were shifting towards the service sector. It is very hard for people who make good quality product then cannot sell it. But all this nonsense of 'it's all your fault' has got to stop. We are all in this together and the only way we are going to sort it out is together.
Complain about this comment
The sympathy for Germany is deserved, any for the UK less so.
From Thatcher on every government has loaded all of the UK eggs into the basket of financial services, and left the rest to rot or be sold off.
Leaving oneself as a one-shot organisation has to be risky in the long term.
Worse, though. Brown has shown himself to be a long-term follower of Greenspan: and has argued (and legislated) for almost unregulated markets. Now, that has been shown to be even riskier.
Germany has a mixed economy; peoples' savings levels are higher and debt levels are lower than the UK. Their central banks are protected within the Euro zone. Look to Denmark to see how others (with mixed economies) outside the eurozone are faring.
This is the first real test of the Euro, but so far it's standing up pretty well. OK, there's a long way to go but the eurozone economy is a lot bigger than the UK's - and that is what I expect will count.
Complain about this comment
You really don't get it do you?
#18 My blame game as you call it, is to make you realise that things have to change.
The rest of the world wants a change and won't be prepared to carry on as before.
Opel in Germany, actually an American owned company has asked the German government just TODAY to give financial assurances, because the American owners can't give them.. What a state of affairs..!!
While Wall Street and the City were playing monopoly, Germany was working hard, rebuilding the country and trying to create real wealth.
#17 Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not a German.. I was born in English speaking country..
Germany's bubble hasn't burst at all.. It has achieved something that probably no other countries could acheive.. It has absorbed a bankrupt communist country with 17 million people.. Go to the Eastern part of Germany today and you'll see investment in the infrastructure that would be the pride of the UK or USA. That's the real reason for the unemployment in Germany.. How to find jobs for so many people?
People in Eastern Germany still have a better standard of living now than people in parts of Britain and the USA.. Not perfect.. but getting there.. German workers are still more productive, save more than Brits and in the USA..
I understand, why everyone is so keen to talk Germany down.. but you've lost the argument..
Complain about this comment
So we have a German sympathiser and a French sympathiser both in one thread telling the world that the UK deserves everything it gets.
How tedious and boorish. If this was a character flaw that was being criticised I would take it and give as good as I was given but this is real recession with individual people going to be seriously hurt, belwildered by the events and made very poor.
Yes, the UK as a nation has been driven from a manufacturing base to a Service and Financial success and that boom is now bust but the people going to be hurt by this disaster is not the UK Government - it is going to be the people of the UK.
Please believe me that when I criticise the French for being being the Kings of Armistices or the Germans for being humourless, I do so to mock their national characteristic as I perceive them, but I would not be such insufferable boorish as to criticise the Germans or the French when it is their individual peoples that suffer hardship or risk losing their jobs.
That is why I said at #1 I have every sympathy with Detlef.
I did not think the French and German people were dullards and boors as to be nationalistic when an ally nation is in economic turmoil but now I am not so sure.
Complain about this comment
Doesn't Detlef realize that Germany's politicians have betrayed the German people and signed some 85% (according to former German president Herzog) of legislative powers to the unelected crowd in Brussels?
And he's a fan of Lenin? Is that the same Lenin that mass murdered millions of people during 1918-1922?
And Britain is certainly better off without the Euro. At least Britain can still control its own monetary policy, whilst we are stuck with a 'one size fits none' policy.
I'm sick of having to pay for the incompetence and corruption of Greek and Italian politicians.
Complain about this comment
#19 - frenchderek
I would agree up to a point but you neglect one very big factor - the cost of having a roof over your head. Property prices in the UK have been at an inflated level pretty much since the seventies. Most people in the 'property owning democracy' have been mortgaged up to the hilt before even considering credit for cars, consumer durables and so on. The Germans save a lot more for no better reason than they have a lot more to save.
Complain about this comment
#20 - PatienceOver
Where on earth you get the idea that we are all "trying to talk Germany down" from I have no idea. Perhaps you are glancing over the thread rather than reading it. Have you been to East Germany? The unemployment situation is dire and the principal reason for the high level of infrastructure development is to give people work. A fact that is often overlooked is that reunification was an article of the BRD constitution. As a result, when the DDR became - for want of a better word - available, the then West German CDU government conducted elections in the DDR for which the outcome was never seriously in doubt but the people of the former BRD were not consulted electorally. Reunification was taken as an article of faith. I suspect that if the prosperous West Germans had realised what a huge drain on resources the reconstruction of the DDR was going to be, there would have been some pause for thought. In the event they have handled it well and are to be congratulated on this but you really should look at the situation on the ground before assuming that German prosperity is evenly spread. It is not.
I notice with interest that you hail from an English speaking country but you do not tell us which one. It makes it difficult to respond when you are not sure if you are dealing with complacency, arrogance or a massive inferiority complex.
Complain about this comment
#22 That's fine if you think the Uk is better off without the Euro.. great..
Then why don't you leave the EU? dis-engage from your largest market..? Throw up the last few chances you have..? Become the Isle of Wight of Europe..!
I bet the silent majority in Britain wouldn't do it..
Anyway this thread is about Germany and the Britain's realtionship with the Euro..
But lastly as a tease, I bet Denmark joins the Euro within the next five years.. over 50% in polls there.. are now for it..
That will leave the UK isolated.. oh sorry .. I forgot 'Fog in London' 'The continent's cut off'
Complain about this comment
#24 Schucki.. Ich lebe in Ostdeutschland..
Yes that's right, I live in Eastern Germany and in fact I've travelled between the UK and De for over twenty-five years.. But I was born in the UK... So please don't tell me that I don't know about the two, I know them both extremely well.
The point about unification that I'm trying to make is that Germany has achieved something that wouldn't/couldn't have happened in the UK or perhaps anywhere else.
Of course the wealth isn't evenly spread out. Is it in Britain? Even after 800 years or so democracy. How could Germany manage that, when the Brits and the USA also haven't?
An inferiority complex.. me? nah!
If it wasn't so serious I would find it amusing that the 'roosters have come home to roost' in Britain.. After all the bragging and telling us we were on the wrong track .. hah! I'll stick with the German 'Sozialer Markwirtschaft' way of doing things any day..
Complain about this comment
#26 - PatienceOver
Well I am sorry to have annoyed you but I wanted to know where you were coming from.
I am also a Brit living in eastern Europe and I happen to share your admiration for what Germany has achieved. Of course reunification could not have been achieved in Britain if only because it is an artificial construct to start with. If anything, it will split into its component parts.
The only thing I really wanted to take issue with was the idea that somehow, USA and UK are to blame for this mess. These countries would not have surrendered their manufacturing bases quite so willingly if someone else had not been willing to make the goods cheaper, they would not have sold all this toxic debt if someone had not been stupid enough to buy it and they would not have borrowed all that money if someone had to lent it to them. Nobody comes out of this in a good light. The main exercise at the moment is to try to come out with as little egg all over our faces as possible. I just don't happen to think that attributing blame is helpful.
Complain about this comment
P.S. - #26 - PatienceOver
"Schucki.. Ich lebe in Ostdeutschland.."
Should that not be "Ich wohne . . ."?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#26, PatienceOver,
You mentioned "The point about unification that I'm trying to make is that Germany has achieved something that wouldn't/couldn't have happened in the UK or perhaps anywhere else.".
Quite frankly I can't understand your logic as many countries have had to reconstruct their infrastructure since WWII. The Germans did it first in the West and then more recently in the East and did a very good job as I certainly saw the job they have done in the West when I worked there. However what do you think has happened in the North of the UK, in France, in Belgium etc as any country that had ageing old manufacturing facilities has had to rebuild them. I remember working in Sheffield in 1988 and it was like a war zone with all the destroyed factories, but it is quite different now, likewise most of the old run down Northern areas. The motorway system in the North is also pretty good these days, albeit the South is not, but I've yet to see even Germany come close to the infrastructure of the Belgian road system. I am spoilt for choice when it comes to fast easy transport, only Brussels got missed unfortunately. So please leave it out when it comes to ability to rebuild, anyone can do it if they have the political willpower and the funds to do it. The UK's problem has not been about the funds or willpower so much but more about the endless rounds of public enquiries, royal commissions and Nimby's that delay any proposal, which is why the Eurostar has taken so long to complete compared to Thalys and TGV. My guess is that the Germans did not tolerate those obstructions and could just get on with the rebuilding.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (30):
I think the point of PatienceOver is that Germany, besides getting 17 million new inhabitants, besides getting underdeveloped and uncompetitive land joining it, it decided that it will handle the situation without giving up its principles. It gave the same social benefits to its new citizens, it started massive reconstruction project and in the same time preserved its social market economy.
Now add to this mix that he may be a little bit bitter, I don't know I just speculate, on UK giving up social market economy and trading it to Austrian School inspired economics that both Thatcher and Reagan pursued. Now when both USA and UK are nearing the day on when they are getting the bill from all those yesteryears of increasing social inequality, under investment to people, under investment to infrastructure, fundamentalist belief on free markets solving all problems and preaching to the 'old Europe' how they are relics of history, now all that is coming out.
Actually I have to say that I at least partly join this choir. There is major need for re-alignment of policies both in UK and USA. Of course Germany and other countries that didn't abandon their own systems too have to address some heavy questions too about spoiled opportunities, but that is different story.
Now to continue the subject...
To Menedemus (21):
I think that what Brits should be somewhat worried about is that people from the continent express either ill will or have misgivings about Brits and the British government. There are faults in the continent, but then again you can't ignore that these feelings adequate reasons...
Just to mention few...
Iraq war or The war against Euro. Of course other EU countries too joined it, but if UK wouldn't have joined it, that could have prevented the war.
Continuant opting out from common European projects from Euro to Schengen. Continuant eurosceptism and continuant questioning of the EU.
Aligning and gloating over special relationship with the USA. Allowing US special interest groups to take over and dictate UK foreign policy: Rupert Murdoch!
I could continue even more, but you can see my points.
Now I do agree that its wrong to wish for the collapse of British economy as it just puts out too much hurt in all the wrong places. Either way, you can't just blind your eyes from these issues. Also one thing that always amazes me is the continual juxtaposition of UK against France and Germany, the idea always seem to be that French and Germans are out to get the Brits, or the idea that EU is Franco-German and not an common European project. The otherness of UK in EU is self inflicted fully.
To threnodio (27):
Yes, we are in this together, but I don't agree that we shouldn't be looking for where all this started and all the mistakes that were made. Almost all countries have made mistakes in different times, in the last decade, and these have to addressed and then politics must be re-aligned.
Complain about this comment
#31 - Jukka_Rohila
Yes and no. Yes it is a very good thing to say 'you should not have done this, that or the other. It was stupid. It must not happen again' - that is learning lessons of history.
No, it is entirely wrong to say 'you got it wrong, it's all your fault, now we are all going to enjoy watching you suffer and it serves you right'.
Some people are getting rather too fond of this attitude on the blog. We came close to a playground row about whose 1956 uprising was better today. We have Brits, Germans, Poles, Russians, Finns, the odd Ukrainian and several British expats all arguing about things that happened 40 or 50 years ago and about which we can do nothing. I mean, how stupid can it get?
Complain about this comment
31. At 11:14pm on 14 Nov 2008, Jukka_Rohila wrote:
"Continuant opting out from common European projects from Euro to Schengen. Continuant eurosceptism and continuant questioning of the EU."
It isn't going to stop! We have been lied to again and again and again. Admittedly we were lied to by British politicians and it is our fault that we tolerate them. However they have had the support of continental politicians and countries. The "EU" should not have allowed he UK to sign the Lisbon Treaty.
In the immortal words of the one and only President Sarkozy: Get used to it!
OR: Please start campaigning in your country or anywhere you can to have the UK thrown out of the "EU".
Complain about this comment
To: Jukka_Rohila
Have you ever complained anywhere about the fact that we in the UK have not had the referendum we were promised?
Complain about this comment
#31, Jukka_Rohila,
You do have certain points about the free market approach but then so do the UK about the other extreme approach of the French and Germans. Unfortunately the two parties are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. By that I mean the Franco German approach to the EU is too over regulate everything to the point where if implemented fully it would be pretty much cost prohibitive to manufacture anything. They get round this inherent problem by only partially implementing directives and retaining illegal (to the EU) protectionist measures. In the case of Germany the list of protective measures and unresolved court cases is very long and I even became peripherally affected by one such case many years back.
Personally I think it would be better for the EU if it steered a middle course in regulation as too much is equally as bad as too little.
Complain about this comment
Here are some thoughts:
The PID mechanisms that regulate economy are stiffer in Germany than in the UK or the US. Germany is less prone to suffer wild fluctuations, but on the other hand, its margin of growth is comparatively lower.
Global economy is a nice example of a physical system dominated by cooperative effects. The system is more than the mere sum of its parts. Neither UK nor Germany can avoid recession if the external conditions are hard enough.
Without breaking or rewriting the rules, I doubt that a coordinated effort of all the countries could really solve the economic problems. Should the G20 change the game just in order to avoid recession?
Having at least some manufacturing capability is strategically sound. You need something to fall back on when crisis hits you and you need to reactivate the market.
Maybe UK does not need to adopt the euro, but its economy is way better with the euro. You can always bet to the strongest currency.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (35):
True. France or Germany are not model countries, neither is any other EU country in all areas of life.
The difference of UK compared to France and Germany is that they have pledged themselves fully to the European project while UK is either leaning to USA, moaning about EU or just actively sabotaging European integration. This difference results on the 24 other EU countries to engage more with France and Germany than with the UK.
To give few recent examples of this could be Gordon Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty in a backroom, having the current and past foreign ministers painting pictures of an EU enlarged outside Europe and be driven only by commerce, having UK get opt-out from European convention of human rights... the list goes on... I'm sorry, but that at least to me gives an heart attack.
Europe has always been shaped by the central leading countries of Germany, France, UK and Italy. As Italy has concentrated to its inner politics and UK has jumped in bed with USA, it's now wonder that the European project is driven by Germany and France. This will not be changed before UK puts Europe first and engages and embraces fully the integration process with an aim of ever closer union.
PS. Should have added that for UK to become driver of the European integration it has to earn its place: you can't just bypass 20 - 30 years of negativity and hostility against the European project in a night.
Complain about this comment
The same entrenched and circular arguments at play here, e.g.
#22 And Britain is certainly better off without the Euro. At least Britain can still control its own monetary policy, whilst we are stuck with a 'one size fits none' policy.
Which means exactly what? And, how exactly is this helping the British economy now? If the UK controls its own monetary policy, which elected representative of the British people controls the plummeting value of Sterling?
Another poster says that the Euro hasnt avoided recession in the Eurozone, but he/she doesnt say that being *outside* the Euro hasnt avoided a recession in Britain either. Which just becomes another circular argument.
Picking up from Jukka_Rohila @ 31 and the *Continuant opting out from common European projects from Euro to Schengen.* it is interesting to analyse the arguments for these opt-outs. They fall into two groups:
a) Dogmatic ? Keep our sovereignty; keep control of our borders, etc. I call the latter *dogmatic* because it is a myth that joining Schengen would mean losing control of British borders; it is more likely to be the opposite: by eliminating largely pointless intra-EU border controls, these controls would then be concentrated and, by definition, reinforced on the travel flows from outside the Schengen area. The only way for the anti-EU brigade to get back their *full* control of their borders would be to get the UK not only out of the EU but also out of EFTA, i.e. become an equivalent to Albania or Ucrania.
b) Macroeconomic ? Control of *our own* monetary policy, as opposed to the one size fits all Eurozone
But nobody in the anti-EU brigade cares much about the MICROECONOMIC (or *real* economy) level, e.g.:
a) The plight of businesses who have to operate in the real economy, i.e. the one that is heavily reliant on moving goods and/or people around. Being outside of both the Eurozone and Schengen puts a burden on these businesses, see two examples here: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a395ccd4-9fb1-11dc-8031-0000779fd2ac.html
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/261786e4-e127-11d9-a3fb-00000e2511c8.html
To add to that, of course, the currency exchange risks and costs that British based importers or exporters have to bear.
b) The plight of Expat (shouldn?t they be called immigrants?) pensioners: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2008/11/05/noindex/expat.xml
*Britons living in Europe and receiving a fixed income in sterling are being hit particularly hard?. each month that the average retired person living abroad receives their pension through their bank, they pay anything between £10 and £30 in transfer fees and other bank charges.*
c) The burden on the tens of millions of British people (either on tourism or business) who have to pay hefty currency exchange commissions to the banks to change their pounds for euros every year. This is an unproductive cost that drains resources from the economy that otherwise could be spent on something productive.
It is impossible to argue with *keep our sovereignty* dogmas or the tired ?one size fits all? macroeconomic arguments. But the above are hard facts and difficult to ignore. Unsurprisingly they are brushed under the carpet by the anti-EU brigade. In the good old years when the UK economy was defying gravity by acting as a gigantic hedge fund, they were looking clever, but now that the main hope for future growth is the REAL economy, I am not so sure.
Complain about this comment
JorgeG1
i think it is not so unpractical of Britain to rely on the USA. Question: name the biggest economy in the world in 1012? answer: the USA.
Question No 2: name the country among others which will have one of the most high income per person in the 2012? answer: the USA.
Question No3: name the biggest world currency for reserves (at present)?
answer: still, dollar.
and i think the virtual economy will always beat the real one in the end :o)
Jukka, "jumped in bed", moral police :o). they are simply strolling the walks, hand in hand, it only seems to you in the unsure moonlit garden paths.
and by the way, is it so bad to have an internal, never overly optimistic check-up on the EU policies, in the shape of the UK?
"that's why there is a pike in the lake, so that the carps wouldn't doze"
Complain about this comment
To WebAliceinwonderland (39):
You too, Alice! ...to adapt some Shakespeare.
Just to note some economic factors...
1) USA is not the worlds biggest economy, EU is now and also in 2012.
2) US has high per person income because two factors a) dollar as reserve currency and b) US being a major oil producer.
2.5) UK too is a major oil producer. Currently UK produces as much oil as it consumes, that is a huge boon for GDP.
3) Europe doesn't have oil by itself and has to buy all, except coal, from elsewhere and that puts a huge dent to economies.
The thing is that united Europe has very much to gain. As soon as US withdraws from Persian Gulf then Iran, Iraq and probably Saudi-Arabia too will start to trade oil with Euro. That will be a huge boon for the European economies.
And Alice... what else can you expect from a good little protestant than to resent over extra marriage relationship... my god if we don't stop this madness then what will happen! Cats and dogs living together! End of the world I say!
PS. Now when I have mixed protestantism in the mix I could continue with it... Have you read Thomas Mann's book Buddenbrooks? It has also an excellent television version. Although old it does give good view to German, or at least north German, psyche, on to the world of protestant ethic.
Complain about this comment
#37 - Jukka_Rohila
"The difference of UK compared to France and Germany is that they have pledged themselves fully to the European project while UK is either leaning to USA, moaning about EU or just actively sabotaging European integration".
No. France and Germany have pledged themselves to their vision of the European project. In some areas, Britain has a different view. It is entirely false to suggest that this implies a lack of commitment.
". . . while UK is either leaning to USA, moaning about EU or just actively sabotaging European integration".
No. If you were to take into account the relationship with the US in the context of NATO, you must accept the Atlanticist credentials of Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Bulgaria and Romania. However federal ist your mathematics, this does not add up to a minority of one.
"Gordon Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty in a backroom"
Please. I am no Brown fan but this was simply a question of him not being able to be there at the precise time and the other leaders not being willing to change it. The treaty was signed publicly by the Foreign Secretary then counter signed by Brown. As a piece of protocol, it was a blunder but a symbolic gesture? You are clutching at straws.
". . . having the current and past foreign ministers painting pictures of an EU enlarged outside Europe "
No. Britain has favoured enlargement for many years. It was Britain that took the argument about the former Warsaw pact countries on and won it. By enlargement outside Europe, I take it you mean Turkey. This is still the subject of internal debate and Britain is not alone in the idea. I am still considering that one.
". . . and be driven only by commerce". I do not recall a UK foreign secretary expressing this view for many years. Evidence please.
"Europe has always been shaped by the central leading countries of Germany, France, UK and Italy. "
They have attempted to dominate the agenda and, from time to time, Britain has disagreed forcefully. That is their right and it does not follow that they are wrong every time.
". . . and UK has jumped in bed with USA, it's now wonder that the European project is driven by Germany and France".
No. Britain has not jumped into bed with the States. It was in bed with the States long before the EU was even thought of. If you want to find a reason for tensions, perhaps you should address the refusal of Finland, Sweden and Ireland to join NATO in the post Cold War age when it would not compromise the principle of neutrality.
". . . it's now wonder that the European project is driven by Germany and France. This will not be changed before UK puts Europe first and engages and embraces fully the integration process with an aim of ever closer union".
The project has been driven by France and Germany because it has suited them to do so and others have let them. There is a new reality in Europe and this dominance is now at an end. As Sarkozy likes to say, "live with it". I am confident that you can rely on the UK to embrace the European project when it begins to resemble something they can live with rather than a model imposed from Paris and Berlin. The omens are good.
"- you can't just bypass 20 - 30 years of negativity and hostility against the European project in a night".
More than No. This is sheer blind prejudice from someone who cannot see beyond the existing reality to the possibility that the present model is flawed and should be revisited.
Jukka, so often you come close to getting me to agree with you then you post something which is so full of prejudice that I move away again. Your model of Europe is a valid one with which many will concur. It does not follow that you are right and denigrating your opponents is no better than the ravings of the 'get me out of here' gang who post from time to time.
Complain about this comment
Sorry, I forgot the European Convention. It was adopted into UK law in 1998. The Act is HERE.
This enactment was to the full extent of ECHR including the right to petition ECourtHR
There are reserved matters for technical reasons in the following area:
The Rights to property, education and elections.
And opt outs in the following:
Imprisonment, freedom of movement and expulsion (due to conflicts with the Prevention of Terrorism Acts)
Fair Trial and Spousal Equality (I confess I cannot explain this one).
Right of non-discrimination (due to variable retirement ages between men and women - all other matters relating to discrimination are dealt with under UK law).
Complain about this comment
The worst delusion is self delusion because it leads to irratonal actions that have exactly the opposite outcomes wanted and predicted. The US liberals including President Clinton thought you could give houses a way to people who couldn't afford them and somehow they'd muddle through the system and it things would work out. The Federal Reserve and the Treasury thought you could rely on sound judgement of bankers, financiers, and other financial experts to make sound loans without regulations and the market would operate at maximum efficiency. American conservatives thought about the same and that this would allow poor people to become rich and rich people to become richer. In Europe, bankers thought they could play the same games as American bankers and make even more money beating them at their own game while governments and people thought they could have a huge social safety net with high taxes to pay for it, a huge bureaucracy to regultate it, and a central power to administer it and still prosper. In China they thought they could export products at very low prices forever without worrying about toxic industrial waste, regulations to prevent it and protect consumers and labor, and indifferent to what that did to their customers' own economic and social stability. In Russia, Iran, and Venezuela, they thought the price of crude oil would go up forever and they could spend money on creating chaos at home and around the world and get away with it because there would always be plenty more where it came from. All of these people were right...for awhile and then reality hit and the roof came crashing in. The entire world is just about bankrupt, Europe surprisingly even more so than America. China is a toxic waste dump populated by 1.4 billion people who will soon be very angry and unhappy when their economy collaposes. And Russia, Iran, and Venezuela will return to being banana republics selling their black liquid banana for what little they can get for it from those who can barely afford it at minimal prices, their own economies' suns having set. Welcome to the depression of 2008,2009....20XX. The rules have changed, the playing field has been turned upside down. In the world of Boom and Bust, we have left boom and entered bust. Anyone want to buy some apples from me for five cents a pound?
What will become of the EU especially France and Germany? Their people had better learn to tighten their belts, live much more like the rest of the world, and come out of their bubble they've enjoyed these last few decades (created largely at American taxpayer, consumer, and labor expense) or there will be social chaos there. I for one couldn't care less. They will get exactly what they deserve. Most people do and then cry about it.
Complain about this comment
Marcus #43 .. 'Man ist was man isst!' or You are what you what eat..!
Oh dear, after slogging through your last piece.. I'm beginning to wonder if not most Americans are like their food.. processed!
Actually, the country where the majority of its citizens live in bubble is the US. In comparison to Europe, many fewer travel abroad. I even heard somewhere that some of their politicians think that Africa is a country :o) We've all heard the story of putting an atlas in front an American and asking them to pick out countries on it..
And a small tip: If you want to keep jobs in the US, start manufacturing goods of the same quality as the Germans .. quite simple..
BTW, I understood Obama's visit to Berlin to be a sign that he wants to improve relations with 'old Europe'. I think he also wanted to show those at home that Americans can be welcomed in Europe ..
Lets hope things improve soon.
And then it's always great fun to read the Brits whining on about French & German domination of Europe.
The UK always draws back from making any decisions, sulks in the corner or uses bully-boy tactics because it can't get its way (or dominate) the other 26. Then it has the cheek to accuse the others of wanting to dominate when the reverse is actually the case.
Next year, we hope to celebrate 10 years of the Euro.. No doubt the doom and gloom merchants here will say 'it won't last.. we're better off out..' Oh yeah.. we've heard it all before..
Complain about this comment
To: Jukka_Rohila
34. At 04:38am on 15 Nov 2008, SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
"To: Jukka_Rohila
Have you ever complained anywhere about the fact that we in the UK have not had the referendum we were promised?"
Jukka! Please would you give me an answer to that question?
Complain about this comment
44. At 3:05pm on 15 Nov 2008, PatienceOver wrote:
" ... And then it's always great fun to read the Brits whining on about French & German domination of Europe.
The UK always draws back from making any decisions, sulks in the corner or uses bully-boy tactics because it can't get its way (or dominate) the other 26. Then it has the cheek to accuse the others of wanting to dominate when the reverse is actually the case.
... "
One of the Brits who negotiated the British membership of the Common Market stated on British TV that the problem with the "EU" was tat the Brits had been lied to right from the start and that the Common Market had always been about political integration. The interviewer quickly changed the subject.
The UK does not belong in the "EU". It is totally unacceptable to be in a political union with the continentals. Blame the liars who tricked us into being part of this rubbish and don't expect the aggro to stop until we are out. It could get far worse. It could result in violence and that is not a threat but a fear.
Complain about this comment
#44 - PatienceOver
Obama's visit to Berlin was all about satisfying the American electorate of his foreign policy credentials. It was purely for domestic consumption and it could have backfired quite badly when the Republicans responded that this was a battle for the American presidency not the German one. Thank goodness, in the end, it didn't.
I still maintain that Europe may have taken the wrong message though. Democrat instincts are protectionist - far more so than the Republicans and those who think Obama is going to roll over and have his tummy tickled are in for a very rude awakening.
Complain about this comment
Patience Over
Actually the US can and does design and manufacture products that are much higher in quality and technology than anything Germans are capable of. How many CPU microprocessor chips has Germany invented and manufactured to compete with Intel and AMD?
American automobile manufacturers deliberately kept quality low for many decades. This way they profited from selling spare parts and new replacement cars since cars had a life span of no more than four or five years. It was the Japanese who introduced low cost high reliability cars which wrecked the US market. US manufacturers were slow to adapt. How nice to see that the folks at Daimler who were going to have a merger of equals when they bought Chrysler got so badly burned and wrecked their reputation with shoddy products under the Mercedes Benz brand label. Not everything that comes out of Germany is even good quality anymore. BTW, it might interest you to know that Toyotas, Hondas, and other "foreign" cars sold in the US are often manufactured right here in America. But the foreign name often has the cache in the American market. For example, the GM Metro Geo was the same car as the Toyota Corolla manufactured in the same plant in Freemont California and cost $1800 less but people bought the Corollas in preference anyway because of the reputation of the brand name. I for one never have and never will buy a European car. I probably will not buy an other foreign car either unless GM and Ford go out of business in which case I might buy a Lexus. I have also never owned a car with less than a V-8 engine. I don't like small cars with puny engines.
Yes the US lives in a bubble it has invented for itself. It always has. No need to study the map, there is nowhere for Americans to escape to if they wreck their country. OTOH, it would do most people around the world good to study where America is in relation to where they are. That tells them where they can aspire to go to. If they can't make it to the US, then they should also know where the EU is. They certainly learn where Britain is quickly enough. All most Latinos have to know is which way is North.
Complain about this comment
#46 - SuffolkBoy2
Violence is the last resort of a scoundrel. If it came to that, it would signal only that the argument was lost.
It is not Brussels that keeps you in the EU, it is Westminster. If you don't like it, mobilise your domestic supporters and stop blaming the rest of Europe.
Unless of course your secret fear is that you don't have that much support . . . ?
Complain about this comment
44. At 3:05pm on 15 Nov 2008, PatienceOver wrote:
" ... And then it's always great fun to read the Brits whining on about French & German domination of Europe. ... "
Going from memory which is dangerous:
After the French and Dutch NOs but before the British government had decided or announced that it was going to deny us the referendum we were promised, Klaus Haensch, Ex-president of the "EU"-parliament was quoted in the Wiener Kurier as saying that if the UK voted NO then the UK should seek a different relationship with the "EU" i.e. it should leave. I agreed with that.
I am not aware of him suggesting that France or Holland should leave after their NOs.
I am not aware of his suggesting that we should be given the referendum we were promised.
If the UK left the "EU", then the "EU" would still be the "EU". If France left then it would be something else.
The "EU" or "EU"-loving politicians can never say to Germany or France "If you don't like it, get out!" They can say it to the UK or Ireland. For that reason France and Germany will always have much more power in the "EU" than the UK.
Technically we didn't have the referendum we were promised. We didn't have it because they knew the answer would be NO. The current British government was elected on the promise of a referendum.
As I see it, practically we have had it and the answer was NO so the Lisbon Treaty can never be legitimate.
Complain about this comment
To threnodio (41):
I think you miss some points...
NATO. Finland isn't neutral, its allied politically and economically with the EU, militarily its allied with nobody. Same goes to Sweden and Austria. Ireland has proclaimed to be neutral all the way. My big objection to NATO is that its not anymore purely a defensive alliance. What NATO has become is tool for global offensive military operations.
Let me tell you something more. Each and every man in this country has an obligation to defend the country. We have an reservist army, I myself served 9 months (signalist + international training) and moved in reserve. The army and the whole country is prepared for the worst possible scenario: total defensive war. If the war would come, all men would be called in service disregard of their wealth or education. I can accept this duty, I can accept even defending some other European country, what I don't accept is going to offensive war and especially when it has no regards of safety of my country or Europe or large.
Essentially what I don't want to do or want my future son or daughter to do is write a farewell letter... "Hi mom and dad! I just wanted to write you for one last time. We are taking heavy casualties and tomorrow we are going to attack the enemy and hopefully secure the oil field...". I'm sorry, but I really don't see why I or any of my fellow men or any future generation should go and fight some imperialistic war in some god forsaken place in the dessert.
The eastern European countries that joined NATO did so because of their trauma of Soviet Union and fear of Russia. I can't criticize their decision, but one could really ask a valid question on was it a right move in the end? Now when they are part of US lead NATO they are persuaded and pressured to serve in various missions. They also haven't received any better security situation in case of major European war. In example Baltics don't still have any credible defense forces and only now they have started to make investment to their own defense.
A note that I would like to make is that in countries that have professional armies it seems that in those countries political elite is more willing to send their people to die in foreign lands. I however can't see any moral justification for that: there is no reason for Johnny to die even if he is unprivileged.
...
In regards of EU... oh please... If EU would be a bus, then France and Germany would be pickering drivers, UK would be the passenger in front of an open door shouting to jump in any minute, and other countries would be passengers either moaning or screaming for their life.
I'm sorry, but UK has not brought anything into table that would introduce more closer union. Has any UK politicians come out of the closet and proclaimed "you know, this federation, oh boy, that would be sweet, here is how we should do it"? And actually if UK would introduce something then would any other EU country have confidence that UK in the end would follow the course? Yes its prejudice, but essentially EU its workings are based on trust. UK has not stifled its chains from US, your media is owned by American neo-conservative, your politicians always look to USA for model... That just doesn't work. If you want to change EU then you have to embrace it fully and start seriously work with it in Federal context, not in the context of "trade, trade and trade".
...
In regards of enlargement wasn't it Milliband who suggested a bit larger EU...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2007/11/milibands_ad_lib_1.html
That is just atypical attitude of British government.
...
Browns timing? I'm sorry, but if you really want to be there then you make it there. If a girl that I likes ask me out on a date I'm not going to moan and say I will come a little late, I will make time for it no matter what. Essentially, how did 26 other leaders have time for it, but not Brown?
...
To SuffolkBoy2 (45) and (46):
Its your country, you decide. If you want out, start doing some work for it. Its not the obligation of rest of the Europe get UK out of EU. Even if EU would be a federation it still would be the decision of citizens of UK to decide do they want to stay in the federation or not. Don't blame the rest of Europe for your own short comings.
In the end, a word of advice, promises made in elections are worthless in parliamentary democracy.
Complain about this comment
The US Economy is in Terrible Shape and near Depression levels if not in a Depression.
The Private economy has not created a net increase in jobs since 2000 and many of the Government jobs created can nolonger be supported because of the declining tax base.
That said even before the Financial Crisis the US was 10 Million jobs short of keeping up with our population increases and the few jobs created were in Government, Restaurants,Retail and Healthcare, while losing jobs in IT,Manufacturing,Managerial,etc. Success?
We have millions of people homeless, Does Germany?
We have Millions of people losing their homes. Does Germany?
We have 50 Million people with no health Insurance and 150 Million more with only Partial Coverage, Does Germany? And friends in Dire need of help with none coming so this is from Personal Experience!
My Mother spends over $1000 a month for Health Insurance and that covers only 80% of costs not including eyes or dental.
A friend's Sister has MS and they are not giving her the proper Treatments, actually doing very little because the HMO restricts what the Doctor will do! She could die!
Does Germany have this Problem?
If a country will not even care for it's sick and injured you do not need to know any other stat because the rest will fall along the same lines!
Our life expectency in the USA is only ranked 45th in the world and Declining, a sign of a Prosperous country?
Our Infrustructure is starting to fail as stated by the American Engineering Society and needs Trillions of dollars of upgrades, a sign of Success? New Orleans levee failures, Interstate Collapse in Minnisota for Example!
Germany along with Japan probably have the best Infrustructure in the world(Roads, Mass Transit, water systems, Sewage systems, dams,waterways, electrical Grids,etc).
The USA has the most expensive educational system in the world leaving millions of students with huge debts and only 10% of the typical High School Graduation class will finish college with a degree(most drop out), somthing not mentioned often and those that do because of the economic crisis have difficulty finding work and others leave the country to escape the debts they owe from the college years. I have a BBA Degree along with several other Certifications(E.M.T., Operational Conductor Training for Freight Trains,etc) and I can attest I'm not Middle Class by Traditional Standards! My Father up in New York Made more Money working as a Construction Worker and had much more benfits then I have had and he did not finish High
School!
Germany has Free higher education in some states and cheap Tuition in others.
They also have a welfare system to help student with their living expenses(up to 650 Euros monthly).
It took me 11 years to pay mine off and never did I receive any welfare benefits for living!
With my Education I'm in th Top 5 % of the population but surely not in Pay!
Germany also has a world class Vocational/technical training system which gives millions of students an education for free and they are paid as they learn.
The US Primary Educational system also is ranked below average and students competing in international tests ususally rank towards the bottom. Why?
The USA has 8 million people in it's correctional Institutions including Jail, Prision,Probation,Parole,etc which is about 1/3rd the world's total.
Only 1/3rd of the workers who lose their jobs receive unemployment insurance, the rest are turned down.
Actually the 18-65 year old working population active in the workforce has been declining for almost 8 years now and the EU has more workers active then the USA which is declining towards the 60% mark.
The welfare safety nets in the USA have been almost destroyed!
We actually have tent cites and food lines across the country now(Nashville, Los Angelos,Cleveland for Examples). Why?
Much of the country has been bought up by the Creditor Nations, Germany being one of them!
The USA has close to 60 Trillion Dollars of debt throughtout it's economy(Government, State, Trade Debts,Consumer debts, Corporate debts) and another 60 Trillion in S.S. and Medicare/Medicaid Liabilities in the future.
For every $1.00 of GDP Growth, the USA over the past 8 years has been increasing it's debt by $7.20 dollars meaning there has been no real Growth only debts-owed to the Creditor Nations such as Germany, Japan, China,Canada,etc.
IN 1980 this ratio was $1.79(debt) versus $1.00 of Growth. Going by that our Basic Economic Standard has declined by 402 % not including the interest owed which will come due!
What Happened?
Germany has a Huge Trade surplus, much lower Consumer and Corporate debts and now a much lower Governmental debt.
For 2009 they are predicting 1.2 Trillion dollars in new Governmental debt in the USA! Within a few years now they expect the US Governmental debt to surpass our GDP!
By the end of 2009 we will have 12 Trillion Dollars in Federal Governmental debts and they expect the increase to continue at this rate for at least several years!
The USA and China are also the largest Polluters on the planet, amazing that the USA would be considering it does not have a large manufacturing base like China and Europe!
The USA uses twice the energy per GDP compared to Germany-meaning germany is using the more advanced Technology(Renewables,etc) and Conservation.
Did not sign Kyoto!
Where exactly do we outperform Germany or many other Nations?
Complain about this comment
Toyota, Bmw,etc ship their car parts into the US and Assemble them here but most of the Manufacturing is done overseas and this is why we have a huge deficit in Transportation Equipment.
It also Puts Ford and GM out of business along with many other companies which used to manufacture car parts in the USA!
Assembly Plants are not the main Manufacturing plants for the Car industry, the part factories along with the other Industries employ many more people and more so overseas in Germany and Japan.
AMD has several large Factories in Germany and also a large research and Developement Department in Dreseden along with the 6 billion dollars worth of Investments!
Complain about this comment
$2000 per car built into the price to pay for medical benefits for employees is what is putting Ford and GM out of business. Toyota's cost is $200. I'm still not going to buy a BMW even if it is assembled in the US. And yes I could afford it.
AMD and Intel may have manufacturing plants around the world but the design and engineering of their most advanced products is done in Silicon Valley. If Germany or Ireland, or Japan has a talented employee who can be of value to them, they'll move him there to work with "the team." Otherwise, they stay where they are to do the more mundane work of production. European technology doesn't even equal Japan's let alone America's.
Tomricc, Germany also doesn't have a navy deployed around the world, a huge nuclear arsenal, troops in countless countries in over 600 military bases. If the US pulled out of all of that, countries like Germany would have to pay for their own defense. I'm for that 100%.
Complain about this comment
#48 - MarcusAureliusII
Why do you present apparently good arguments then undermine them with poor facts. Pay a visit to http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/manufacturing/ and check out just how many of Intel's 'American' products are actually made in the States. The same is almost certainly true of AMD.
Complain about this comment
To tomricc (52):
That's the right talk.
I should add here that even when I criticize US foreign policy or its other policies its done because I see that those policies are harmful.
The thing is, nations and countries become great by hard work, dedication and doing the right kind of things. USA has a past of greatness, of doing things right, on putting their citizens first, the sad thing is that in US elites have forgotten for too long to put the ordinary people first.
I think that US can rise and hope that it will. After all it isn't that long time ago when US car makers made fine cars. My brother just bought 96 Cadillac SLS from Germany in excellent condition. Even I had to change my opinion on US car makers, American car engineers know their stuff when they have the liberty to do their work.
PS. Off to a party. Hard liquor and glogg (mulled wine). I recommend the same course of action for everybody! Have nice evening, don't past out in outside! ;-)
Complain about this comment
#51 - Jukka_Rohila
You are so determined that your vision of a federal Europe is the correct one that you simply will not consider any alternative. You may even be right but there is no point in debating with someone who has already made up their mind.
"In regards of enlargement wasn't it Milliband who suggested a bit larger EU..." Yes, I did not say he didn't. I said nobody in government has seriously suggested that it is purely an economic alliance for many years.
#45 - SuffolkBoy2
"Have you ever complained anywhere about the fact that we in the UK have not had the referendum we were promised?"
Why on earth would Finland complain about the way the British government treats it's own? By the way, you were promised a referendum on the Constitution, not Lisbon. If you think Lisbon is the Constitution by another name - and many do - that is another matter.
Complain about this comment
#54 - MarcusAureliusII
"$2000 per car built into the price to pay for medical benefits for employees is what is putting Ford and GM out of business".
Do you happen to know how much of that 2000 goes to funding emergency rooms for people without insurance? I am not be sarcastic, it is a serious question.
Complain about this comment
Re post 38, the reason I made the point that the eurozone has not avoided recession was a thread a couple of weeks ago when it was suggested that some how they would. This was due largely to outrageous spin put on a recent E.U. economic forecast. Very recently on threads it was being suggested Germany and France would avoid recession.
I have several times said the U.K. would go into recession. It would do so later than the euro zone and may well be effected to a greater degree. The point is the euro zone is not some kind of magic sheild, all our economies are connected.
Re Jukka, Threnodio has it right. Just because some have a different view point on the direction of europe does not make them negative. The fact that many in the U.K. and other countries would like to see a vibrant, strong E.U. based on freetrade and movement of people does not make them wrong. I can understand your views, just do not agree with them, perhaps you could show the same respect to others.
Also do not forget it was France and Holland that stopped the constitution and Ireland that stopped the Lisbon Trraty - not the U.K. Perhaps you should direct just a little of your venom there.
Complain about this comment
I never said that Americans cannot build good products but the sad part is we in the USA do not have much Manufacturing left.
The EU has 34.5 Million Manufacturing jobs while the USA has about 13 million or so and declining.
The EU car Industry and many other sectors in the Eurozone make it a Manufacturing powerhouse not mentioned often.
The Eurozone for example manufactures 200 million tones of steel annually versus 98 million in the USA with similar population totals.
They(eurozone) exported 2.7 Trillion dollars of Goods and Services outside the Eurozone to other countries last year.
BMW workers in Munich Make about 27.50 Euros per hour plus another 10.00 Euros an hour in Benfits.
BMW in South Carolina pays their workers at the (Assembly Plant) about 14 US per hour plus 5 hour in benefits.
That's $92,000 in wages and benefits in Germany verses $38,000 in wages and benfits in the USA.
The AMD Plants and Research Center was supposed to go to New York(Albany) but they invested over 6 billion dollars in Dresden, Germany Instead and this is their most advanced factories with their newest products and a very large reseach center attached to it.
America has a Trade deficit in High Technology Products also!
Europe has a very large military, Nuclear Armed and second only to the USA actually with more Ground Troops then we have.
Greece, Netherland, Germany,Belguim and Italy all have Nuclear weapons attached to their own warplanes under nato while France and England have a Nuclear Force Independent of Nato all together Europe has well over 1000 Nuclear Warheads, enough to Ruin anyone's day.
When your a Debtor the Creditor uses you in many different ways!
If you want your Military base in Germany, you must open your markets up to our products.
If you want us to loan you money perhaps you can fight for us in return.
If you want our Political Help then you must pass certain legislation back home.
Lobbyists in Washington? You know there are more Foreign Lobbyists in the capital then even natives like it makes much of a difference, whores are whores but that gives an idea what is going on.
Germany takes all taxes off it's exports, America Has no tariffs for imported goods, Germany Has tariffs(20-25%) on imported goods so what gives?
There goes the American Auto Industry.
And others!
Germany also has a national Healthcare system which is 50% less expensive then ours covering everyone and actually I have lived in Germany and know what I'm talking about.
Make no mistake, Germany has a very high standard of living.
Even the folks not (officially) working get 750 Euros monthly plus healthinsurace from the Welfare, many working underneath the table.
Officially Unemployed but probably working part time or sometimes full, I know several in Germany that do this and they live Good.
Germany Has the second highest wages in the world(mercer Report) relocation/headhunter corporation specializes in finding human resources.
The USA was ranked 20th in wages/benefits, It does not surprise me and if this Government keeps its crap up too much longer do not think the people here want cause the Elite big Trouble!!!
Americans know they have been used!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
tomricc, a Russian here, have got 2 things for you in consolation:
your list @52 - I thought you were writing about Russia. making a mental effort, I realised it is about the US :o)
and I thought this our recent joke on the crisis is a joke!
"For decades we have been dreaming that things in the Soviet Union would be like in the United States...
"domechtalis'!" (have dreamed up to! like, be careful what you dream about)
Now in the US it is the same (...) as in Russia!
No 2 is that your Ford and GM are here in my St. Pete and doing fine. That is how GM is doing we don't yet know, they just cut the ribbon a week ago, city mayor like a hen flopping wings happy flying around, US consul made a lovely speech in Russian, all weeped and embraced each other in short.
But Ford is for years optimistic. May be it has something to do with the worker at Ford salary, 800 dollars a month or may be 900, forgot. (Though they've been quarreling with employees about not making it a 1000 for the past year.)
_______________
Mavrelius bananamama. I have smth in consolation for you as well.
came across a US definitely page with "greetings for all occasions", and a big picture and it seriously said "new!! in financial crisis!"
In this hour of financial crisis,
you'll be in my
thoughts and prayers!
The Eagle will soar again.
(picture of the eagle provided)
Complain about this comment
Tomricc, you are absolutely wrong. Paulson interviewed on C-Span or PBS about 6 months ago said that the US manufactures about 2 1/2 times as much as China does. I was astonished because I thought exactly what you do. I was in a pharmaceutical manufacturing plant yesterday in Central Pennsylvania and it was huge.
Complain about this comment
Jukka darling drinking glogg and hurrying up to make it to the dates with the girls "no matter what".
"what else can you expect from a good little protestant".
No, haven't read Buddenbrook I think. vaguely remember it is smth about business making, smth ab times Gols-u?-orcy?, only in Germany. must be that very protestant code of ethic scared me off :o)
you know, goes very contradictory to surrealistic Russian religion (as pathetically practical and down to the ground. salt of the earth and all). tell me BTW, what is the average accepted Finnish girl delay time to arrive to a date? what is it in the protestant code of ethics?
of Thomas Mann I also remember that mountain but it was too sad to read.
And love only Joseph and his brothers, the captivating fairy tale that one can read "for always".
Of the codes of ethics know only the Victorian woman code of ethics! Which reminds me I have yet again violated it all over sitting in front of the PC at day time and it is not a bible that i am reading to make things worse!
repentant Alice
Complain about this comment
#61 You obviously need some serious help..
seek it out..!
The old Fascist cliches and calling people clowns just doesn't wash anymore.
I'm not sure from which shining democracy you are writing from:
The UK where the present government rules after winning 35,5% of the vote on a 61,3% turnout.
Or from the US where the president is elected by ludicrous system of State votes..
Of course, only German (to bring the thread back on subject) comes out well in this, with its consensus based proportional representation.
Complain about this comment
Barroso, the unelected not wanted muppet is a reincornation of starlin in the making
Complain about this comment
Nanotchka, there is an old saying that has it that god looks out for drunks, fools, and the United States of America. The US always seems to come out on top in the end when it emerges from the tunnel no matter how bleak it looks going into the tunnel. I've got my fingers crossed it will be the same. Fools always been around to bet against America and so far have always lost. If they live to see it, it only makes them even angrier at it.
Complain about this comment
Okey-dokey Mavrentij, I am glad you are allright.
haven't heard God helps out the United States, thought it's the other forces, but nevermind.
as a fact of the matter we've also got the saying "the sea is always knee-depth to the drunk" so there're seemingy some resources n the back up on our side as well
:o)
Complain about this comment
The US has an 800 billion dollar a year current account deficit!
We have deficits in manufactured goods, Farm Products and in High technology products!
We also have a trade deficit in Energy Products.
The USA has not had a trade Surplus since 1976.
So you say China has less industry then America?
America has more Manufacturing then Europe?
Europe Manufactures more Cars, trucks, trains, civilian aircraft,ships,consumer products,steel,rubber,etc.
The Eurozone exported 2.7 Trillion dollars worth of Goods and services to outside countries last year, How did they do that?
WTO Webpage stats!
Europe has 34.5 million factory jobs, the USA has 13 million and falling.
Not much comparison and China has become the work Shop for low and Medium tech Products for many countries.
China passed the US up and is now in Second place behind Germany or the Eurozone exporting!
Maybe you should drive through the rust belt and see how many factories that have been closed and continue to close, not a pretty sight at all.
We have lost over 5 million manufacturing jobs since 1999 and the loses are accelerating!
These are the actual facts whether it be CNN, Newsweek Magazine, Businessweek,etc they have had articles on the economic troubles we are having.
Toyoto has 300 billion in Cash Reserves, how much does GM have?
AMD they were supposed to invest those Billions of dollars in New York but they went to Germany instead, Why?
New York had 1.5 million manufacturing jobs in 1979, now they have 500,000 and the loses continue at a rapid pace.
Why?
General Electric in the Albany Area had 50,000 workers in the 1960's, White Locomotive had 10,000, the Watervoliet Arsenal had 20,000 workers, we had a Car Factory, two steel mills, a Brewery and many other smaller machine Shops and factories scattered around the area, almost all of them are closed or greatly downsized-GE has 1800 workers left!
What took their place- Prison Employment, Healthcare and other Government Jobs mostly which come from Tax money!
You can go to any state you want and see the same patterns!
The US has lost 1.5 million jobs this year and from 2000 to 2007 the USA gained about 4 million jobs before the downturn so that is a net increase of 2.5 million jobs mostly in Government Positions and Healthcare- That's it!
We need 150,000 a month to keep up with population Growth, this has been the worst 8 years for job growth since the Great Depression.
Complain about this comment
tomricc, the job picture is going to get a lot worse. Not just in the US but all over the world. Those who depend on exports will be hurt the most. The US is the world's number one consumer. When that engine slows down, the rest of the wheels will grind to a halt. The 2 1/2 times figure about manufacturing came from Paulson himself. I don't know where you get your figures from or whether or not they tell the whole story. It seems to me that until the recent downturn, unemployment in the US has been as low or lower than in most European countries. Certainly a lot lower than in China where 500 million people live on $2 a day or less and another 200 million live in dire poverty even by Chnese standards. Which foreign language are you studying to be able to speak with the natives when you go where the grass is greener?
Complain about this comment
tomricc, can it be you and MAII write about one and the same country? :o)
i think MarcusAurelius simply has another agenda. the dollar value is like love, in the eyes of the loving one only. by itself a very costly banknote, i mean the posession of one piece incurs losses. at that we are taken hostage by it. thus interested that the dollar survives and flourishes, as min till to the end of the recession. normally you don't change horses while river crossing and world reserve currency in crisis.
(i think?) So MAII is on a mission which we all appreciate. props up the currency by cheek puffing. and very well, who else is to do it, clearly American duty.
the only thing that slightly worries me he was set in this rut well before the crisis. like tell him, i don't know, Ukraine and Georgia did not benefit from the two respective glorious US citizens... and he'd tell you both countries have benefitted greatly from the US intervention. so maybe he is just born for the pompous job in general, very well then and of some use finally now and wonderful.
Complain about this comment
wow, Mavrelius, I thought now. all are blaming us in passport deals. while the US took the short-cut!
while Russian officials were slaving away issueing passports to Sebasto-polians, Abkhasians etc...
the USA simply issued passports to the heads of the state!
and nobody chirruped a word!
Complain about this comment
Um Alice, it sounds like the US are getting desperate,the old attraction of the brain drain has finished so where are the 'brains' now, not so much in the US if our new poster tomricc is even slightly accurate in what he's said.
Oh my where does this leave you MAII, your US box shifting policies of years have finally been exposed, now people want something other than a new box with different colours with the same bulls**t inside, hint I'm not just talking about our most favourite operating system, (ps it isn't and never will be as they all suck).
So what's this about issuing passports to the EU heads of state, personally I'm all in favour of this and if you want to reinvent the brain drain for them, yippee take them as soon as possible and we'll give them a good old traditional send off.
Finally, having had a great day away visiting an interesting exhibition it was nice to return and see such a great thread complete with posters who still have not yet grasped that there is no blame game for the financial crisis since the culpability is with the wonderful EU experts and the wonderful banking experts, or to put it another way they've simply shown once again that they can't organise a piss up in a brewery.
Complain about this comment
Nanotchka, what I want to know is when will rUSSRia turn off Europe's gas and oil for awhile to let them know who's the boss in Georgia and Ukraine? A few days or a couple of weeks should be convincing to most EUers. Why is Putin trying to change the constitution to give himself two six year terms as President? Why doesn't he just proclaim himself tsar for life the way other juntas do it?
Complain about this comment
1. At 3:56pm on 15 Nov 2008, Jukka_Rohila wrote:
"To SuffolkBoy2 (45) and (46):
Its your country, you decide. If you want out, start doing some work for it. Its not the obligation of rest of the Europe get UK out of EU. Even if EU would be a federation it still would be the decision of citizens of UK to decide do they want to stay in the federation or not. Don't blame the rest of Europe for your own short comings.
In the end, a word of advice, promises made in elections are worthless in parliamentary democracy."
SB2: I actually asked: "Have you ever complained anywhere about the fact that we in the UK have not had the referendum we were promised?" I take it your answer means NO. "EU" lovers seem to have a problem with the word NO. I hope you know how to say NO in your own language.
Also;"If you want out, start doing some work for it."
That is what I am doing here. I'm hoping that some Brits read this.
On the rest of what you wrote: Clearly there are shortcomings in the governance of the UK otherwise we would not be in the "EU" now.
BUT the "EU" is also to blame. The "EU" has criticised Cuba for its treatment of dissidents. 80% of people in the UK want the referendum we were promised. That is more dissidents than there are people in Cuba, I think.
The "EU" is continually trying to interfere in Ireland so the "EU" is capable of trying to intervene when it wants to. But the "EU" does not complain about the anti-democratic events which lead to the Lisbon Treaty being signed by some UK-government apparatchik. Clearly the "EU" is a co-conspirator and is also guilty of crimes against democracy.
You personally clearly have no regrets that we in the UK have not had the referendum we were promised. You too have an anti-democratic mind. You too are an indication that we are heading for a pan-European police state, because they will only manage to keep this dead man upright with police state methods.
" ... a word of advice, promises made in elections are worthless in parliamentary democracy." A German "EU"-loving politician said in the last few days that Turkey should be allowed into the "EU" because it had been promised. The British people didn't make the Turkey-promise so as far as I am concerned it is not valid.
As regards the referendum promise. It is time to make sure that such promises are not worthless. No referendum = no recognition.
Even with your anti-democratic mind you should be able to think far enough ahead to realise that without a referendum there will be continual trouble and maybe even a violent uprising. I am not threatening a violent uprising. I merely point out that if people cannot influence the government of their country through the ballot box, they may revert to other means.
49. At 3:43pm on 15 Nov 2008, threnodio wrote:
#46 - SuffolkBoy2
"Violence is the last resort of a scoundrel. If it came to that, it would signal only that the argument was lost.
It is not Brussels that keeps you in the EU, it is Westminster. If you don't like it, mobilise your domestic supporters and stop blaming the rest of Europe.
Unless of course your secret fear is that you don't have that much support . . . ?"
As regards: "Violence is the last resort of a scoundrel. If it came to that, it would signal only that the argument was lost."
You tell that to the Italian police! A British expert said something like: "They don't use violence as their last resort. They use it as their first resort."
As for the argument being lost, the "EU"-lovers lost the argument but went ahead anyway with their anti-democratic programme. You tell them that they are scoundrels!
European Gendarmes are training in Italy. Guess what sort of tactics they will be trained to use?
I read on the UKIP site that the UK government has refused to rule out the possibility of using them her in the UK.
I am not advocating violence. I am merely trying to get the anti-democratic "EU"-lovers to understand the possible consequences of what they are
doing.
Re: "Unless of course your secret fear is that you don't have that much support . . . ?"
I don't know how much support we have. In the past when opinion polls have indicated a lot of people rejecting the "EU" they have often also indicated that it was low on their list of priorities. Maybe that is why they still voted for parties which were pro-"EU".
In the past five years, I have only twice heard a person in my presence state that he was in favour of the "EU". When I say "I hate the 'EU' ", the answer I frequently get is "Don't we all?"
I have heard people exploding with anger at the "EU".
There is hope!
Complain about this comment
To threnodio (57) and jordanbasset (59):
Okey, lets start from the beginning.
Free trade and free movement alone are not desirable end results from perspective of history and ever more free trade is a fallacy.
The last time Europe had equal or higher levels of free trade and free movement was 19th-century. That time ended to world war I, because of unresolved and accumulated conflicts of interest in politics and economics. Free trade and free movement don't work if there are no higher framework to solve conflict of interests.
Freedom in its abstract concept doesn't exists in nature. Freedom that we know and how we comprehend it rises from organization, from rules and regulations guiding our lives and actions. Now that's not actually the compleate trueth. Freedom is essentially balance, its balance in having freedom to act without interfering with others freedom to act.
If we want free trade and free movement we have to have common rules and regulations guiding them. So what common rules and regulations should we have? Should imports be free of duties and taxes? Should we have common standards? How about third party countries, should we common policy in these issues with them? Who should arbitrate these issues? Who should propose new rules and regulations? Who should make the decision about them and how?
Before we start answering these questions the caveat is that the result must facilitate not only current trade between different countries, but it also must allow highly decentralized production networks, free movement of people and capital, it must work with as low overhead as possible and it must allow scale of economies come into effect.
When I look at the caveat and questions to be answered then the result must either our current EU or something resembling it very closely.
Now, the question that we should ask from all you who just propose free trade and free movement, is do you really just want that or is that just an hobbyhorse? In my view those who propose just having free trade and free movement are those whose real concerns are democracy, representation and having the system work according to the will and consent of the people. If that is it, then that should be point of argumentation. From purely industrial and business point of view, more equal and more level playing field that the current EU has brought has no doubts.
So in my point of view co-operation with just free trade and free movement are dead. They didn't work and they surely won't work in this environment. The only answer, the only viable solution is ever closer union, and here is where the discussion should start.
What we should remember is that Federal Europe is not an answer, its a beginning of long list of questions. If we would have federation then what would be the relationship of citizens, states and the federal government? Do we want citizen centric federation with strong federal government and weak states like the US? Or would we rather have state centric federation resembling the current EU structures? These are open questions.
To jordanbasset (59):
If you brake it, you fix it. France has broken things and made trouble in Europe, but key part that differentiates France from UK is that they have always been cabinets and leaders who have come out in the open, made the work and proposed something to fix problems.
I should also note that Britain just has almost no history in leading the EU: no visions of more closer union. What UK has is long history is putting America ahead of Europe, if a visionary leader from UK would come out propose something the first thing he/she or the vision would get is "so what are your American lords getting from this?".
Complain about this comment
Anybody who prefers an American V8 over a German V8 has either never driven a German V8 or has an issue with reality perception.
I have American friends who actually buy American cars only for the cause of patriotism. Unbelievable.
Driving an American car is like riding a horse, it bucks and shakes. Even relatively decent American cars like the Cadillac CTSv are like that. You have to spend millions to get a decent American car, like a Corvette ZR1.
My advice to anyone who thinks buying American is the only way to get a good V8 is: go get yourself a new BMW V10 M5/V8 M3 or an older BMW V8 M5/540i. You will never look back and your steering wheel will not buck like a horse.
Complain about this comment
#76, Jukka_Rohila,
You keep coming out with lots of explanations that have a certain amount of sense but then you jump to conclusions that often contradict your arguments. In the case of your last post the answer must always be a federation no matter what the preceding words suggest, and you have forgotten the possibility that a confederation could be the best answer.
For instance :-
confederation Definition
con·fed·era·tion (k?n fed'?r a's?h?n)
noun
1. a uniting or being united in a league or alliance
2. a league or alliance; specif., independent nations or states joined in a league or confederacy whose central authority is usually confined to common defense and limited political cooperation
**
This seems to fit with what many on this blog like as the central authorities powers are limited by what is necessary, in our case that would simply be agreements on Social and business practices to cover the freedom of trade and freedom of movement.
Contrast that definition by this definition :-
federation Definition
fed·era·tion (fed'?r a's?h?n)
noun
1. the act of uniting or of forming a union of states, groups, etc. by agreement of each member to subordinate its power to that of the central authority in common affairs
2. an organization formed by such an act; league; specif., a federal union of states, nations, etc.
**
It is the subordination of power that most here do not accept and there is no evidence anywhere that it the best solution, there are far to many influences and factors involved for it ever to be the best solution. It is one of several 'best' solutions and we happen to think it is not the one that is best suited for the EU if it to work.
As for "I should also note that Britain just has almost no history in leading the EU", what else do you expect, until recently the original creators have considered themselves to have a god given right to dictate the policy of the EU. It is only recently that with the enlargement there are more and more new countries beginning to object to policies that they don't like. Indeed it could easily happen that the UK allies itself with the Eastern countries to neutre the Franco-German alliance, in which case all bets are off for your EU federation as there would be a second large power block able to 'lead' the EU, nice thought don't you think?
PS. regarding your last comment about France producing leaders who come out maybe you should remember that the French themselves think Sarkozy has 'small man syndrome". Lots of noise and flitting here and there with old ideas fitted with a new gloss do not make him a world leader I'm afraid.
Complain about this comment
We realy need to get out of the EU,
It is such a bad idea for so many reasons but the main reasons are we haven't asked for it, we haven't voted for it, we have went through tougher times than these and haven't felt the need to sell out out country, the spin that we are getting from Gov. and the EU is tedious in the extreem.
We are not a herd to be steered in any direction that pleases Gov.
They promoting money as the way forward, playing on greed and fear to make us complient.
Is it so hard to understand that more money and the dubious security of the EU, are being sold to us.
The price is our country and our liberty and rights.
Fear is being used as the whip, we can not afford to let it work, we do not want to pay such a high price.
Complain about this comment
Jukka -
You are doing it again! You post a very reasonable and sensible response then, right at the end, you go off on your hobby horse about Britain's lack of leadership and her unhealthy relationship with the States. Let us be quite clear about this before we go any further.
On the subject of leadership, Britain has taken decisive and determined leadership in five key areas: Enlargement - the UK promoted and championed the admission of the last two tranches of the expansion program. The UK has insisted that, until the ultimate shape of Europe is determined, it is not feasible to cut a suit of clothes that will fit everyone. This view has not been popular with the Franco-German school but has proved to be correct. You would do to remember that it was Britain and Ireland who did restrict immigration from the accession countries and only began to do so in the case of Bulgaria and Romania because of domestic political pressure. World Trade: Britain has consistently argued that Europe cannot exist in glorious isolation and needs to trade with the rest of the world. She has championed the Doha round and has been frustrated by the intransigence of others. The message from this weekend's summit suggests that not just the EU but the rest of the world now agree with this position and been sent away to try again. Defence and Foreign Policy: The UK has taken the lead role in establishing trans European defence mechanisms and has command and control in most key areas. She has been consistent in promoting the EU position through her permanent seat at the UN, the one exception being Iraq which I think with the wisdom of hindsight we all agree was a mistake. The UK has born a totally disproportionate share of the cost of the defence of Europe when viewed either as budget or as a proportion of GDP. The CAP: Britain has consistently argued the case that it is manifestly unfair, grossly inefficient, disadvantages good farming,artificially limits food production and contributes to avoidable inflationary pressure on food prices. In this, she has been more unpopular than with any other single issue but has very properly pointed out that the main reason it is still in place is to placate the agricultural lobby in French domestic politics and satisfied minority parties in Germany which were required to balance successive coalitions. Merkel's grand alliance has removed some of this pressure and Germany's position is shifting. Britain has made it clear that she will address the issue of the rebate when the others reexamine the CAP. I do not expect you to agree with me about this but this is my view.
I think we should also clear up once and for all this trans Atlantic thing. Far from being 'in America's pocket', the UK has been engaged in a very delicate balancing act between Europe and the States for nearly two decades. When other European NATO members have been reluctant to do their share, most recently in Afghanistan, Britain has firmly sided with the Americans not least because Britain shares with the States the necessity of taking the extra burden. On other occasions, she has successfully curbed some of the more excessive ambitions of the Americans by the judicious use of her Security Council status. Do not ask for examples because this has invariably been done behind the scenes with diplomatic initiatives rather than the loud mouthing of platitudes in open Council that some other nations favour. The problem for the British lies in the nature of America rather than Europe. The role was much easier in the Clinton years when the US was much more open to the sensitivities of the world community. On the other hand, while the Bush administration has been brash and defiant in the face of criticism, in some areas, it has been constructive. It has engaged with Africa in a way no previous administration has done. Despite differences, the Americans have been prepared to work with the EU and Russia in the Middle East and with China, Japan and Russia over N. Korea. The British role is frequently as facilitator in these arrangements and she has been a calming influence. I will concede that Iraq was an aberration and that some consequences - extraordinary rendition, GITMO etc., have been unfortunate and indefensible outcomes. It should not overshadow the fact that, over a number of years, the British balancing act has generally been successful.
You should also understand that there are significant historical and cultural reasons for the 'special relationship' and that these do not need to get in the way of Britain's relationship with the rest of Europe. If we can agree on this, then it is worth discussing the direction of the European project but, if you persist in promoting the idea that the British are pandering to the needs of their "American Lords", there really is no point.
Complain about this comment
#78 - Buzet23
"Indeed it could easily happen that the UK allies itself with the Eastern countries to neutre the Franco-German alliance . . ."
It's already happening. The glory days of the Paris Bonn axis are well and truly over. Germany, to it's credit, recognised this some time back and has been much more open to alternative thinking. Watch out for January when the Little Corporal stops being king and goes back to running France.
Complain about this comment
deadhead #77, my Mark VIII LSC is an excellent reliable high performance driving machine equal to the German product. I have not dared test it anywhere near its claimed capability of 140 mph as I consider such excessive speeds not only an invitation to die if I have a tire blow out but a sure suspension or revocation of my license if I get into an accident or stopped by a cop. And like the German machine, it is nearly silent when stopped at a light. Unlike many a Mercedes Benz, the ride does not feel like you are driving a truck. Unfortunately, this model was discontinued. I hope one day they bring it back or something like it...if Ford is still in business.
Complain about this comment
To the Folks in Europe, you should work together and Unite but never give up your rights and power as people.
Europe is Economically and Politically becoming one, yes we can watch the Politicians say this and that, put on their dog and Pony shows but when you have no borders, Use the same Currency, have a European Parliament, have a European Rapid Reaction force, World Criminal Court,etc it leads me to believe that a large part of Europe is already in reality one country in all but name.
Each "State" has it's Rights but the Eurozone along with most of the rest of Europe still is moving towards some sort of Federal Model with a slightly less Centralized Government as we have in the States but Trade, Defence,Environmental laws,Economic Regulations,Judicial Law,etc is being made in Brussels and the State(countries) either Approve it or not, that is what I see.
They can put on their theatrical plays on the Tele but what is really happening?
That is the Question!
Complain about this comment
Have you noticed over the past few years more and more of the large Scientific Resarch Projects are being done in Europe?
Iter(Fusion Reactor), Cern(Particle Physics Lab), Renewable Energy,etc.
These are the largest single Research projects on earth!
Basic Scientific Research is done mostly with Government money not Corporations.
That is the foundation of the Sciences, Corporations are based on Profit and so in most cases the Shareholders would not spend the proper amounts of money to fund the Sciences, it is the Taxpayers who do!
So in Physics Europe will now Dominate.
In Renewable Energy Europe already Dominates.
America's spending in Basic Scientific Research has been declining Rapidly.
60% of our Research budget is done by the Military on Weapons systems with no oversight on spending.
This is part of the probems along with education, they are stealing the money and putting it in their pockets.
IN advanced manufacturing processes Germany and Japan are the top two countries presently.
How can a country (Japan) the size of California and another country (Germany) the size of Montana export such huge amounts of products if they were not at the top of the game?
They couldn't!
In 1995 Europe passed the USA up in The Publications of Science Journals with China and Japan also increasing their outputs.
America reached it's scienctific peak during the early 1980's!
Europe Graduates at least twice the number of Engineers and Scientists along with technicians.
When you have Free or cheap Tuition, Welfare benefits for the students for living expenses,Universal healthcare and a very large Vocational/technical education system it gives a huge advantage.
Asia also Graduates a large number of Graduates in these Fields.
Complain about this comment
#81, threnodio,
I'm just wondering if there have been any more developments in the story that Sarkozy would like to extend France's presidency for a further six months, 'due to the financial crisis'. However the inference in that story was that it had more to do with stopping the Czech leader having the EU presidency bearing in mind his questioning of the Lisbon strategy.
Your analogy of Sarko being the little corporal does ring a bell as every dictator I can think of tried to extend their term in office using a number of means or excuses. It could be Sarkozy is one in the making and sees extending the term as a means of restoring the Franco-German power base and getting himself installed as the first President, heaven forbid as it's bad enough having a Frenchman in charge of the ECB let alone another as EU President.
Complain about this comment
The US has been losing Manufacturing jobs for 30 months now without a single gain.
Overall we have lost manufacturing jobs since the early 1980's
We lost almost 100,000 Manufacturing jobs last month alone.
The USA peaked in 1979 in Manufacturing Employment.
The US exports about 8% of World Totals and Imports around 18% of World Totals, hardly Dominate.
That last time American had a Trade Surplus in manufacturing was 1982.
The last time we had a Trade Surplus overall was 1976(Oil Deficits included)
The USA also has a Trade Deficit in High Technology Products!
The USA Has a Trade Deficit in Farm Products!
The EU-15 are the largest Services Exporter in the world(Brain Power)
Much of the US Service Exports are Financials and we know what happened a few months ago so I'm sure that will be greatly decreased!
The Unemployment Stat only counts people who receive Unemployment Benefits which only covers 33% of the workers who lose their jobs.
The Working Population to Working Age Population(18-65) actually amounts to about 60-61% leaving 40% in the 18-65 year population group(officially)not in the workforce!
This has been declining for 8 years!
The Eurozone has a Trade Surplus in Manufacturing and Services.
(Eurostat, Wto Sebsite, Economist)
Total Exports in the Eurozone was about 2.7 Trillion US dollars in 2007.
(WTO Website)
The Eurozone has a bigger Steel, Auto, Shipbuilding,Civilian Aircraft, Chemical, Renewable Energy,Textiles to name a few industries then the USA.
Eurostat last year stated the EU has 34.5 Million Manufacturing Jobs.
China is Rapidly developing but they are Over Populated, Have Extreme Pollution Problems, Need vast Infrustructure Improvements,and the average person cannot afford the products they are producing for Western Companies and over 60% of Chinese Exports are European, Japanese and some American Mulinational Corporations, not Chinese!
Complain about this comment
#85 - Buzet23
To be honest, I was not aware of it until you mentioned it but I have had a quick look. He hasn't got a snowball's hope in hell. To start with, it is not a QMV issue and Britain would kill it stone dead. Even if it were, the Visegrad group would veto but the real killer is German opposition. Actually, he is fouling this up in a big way. He seems to be after the Euro-presidency under the Lisbon plan. Well he can't be president of both. For what it's worth, my guess would be that, if the Irish change their mind and Lisbon goes ahead, Sarko has just handed the job on a plate to Tony Blair, who has for once kept his mouth shut and played a waiting game.
I see Klaus regards the European presidency as a side show. Probably he will be as well but he is very close to Putin so watch out for fireworks on the missile shield issue.
Complain about this comment
Buzet23, on federations and confederations.
Seems about right. Russia is not Russia, it is
"The Russian Federation."
and I doubt you get to hear much about individual republics in it. Tatarstan, anybody? (it's in "Europe", here, this side of the Urals. Has the largest mosque in the world now, I think. or the highest one.)
The Jewish Autonomous Republic - anybody? just to give you an idea.
Well, one you know, The Chechen Autonomous Republic. :o)
Their president has just addressed Medvedev - "what's this 6 year term idea? let's cut this crap. presidents ought to stay as long as people love them." Kremlin hardly managed to paper away his in-put into the Federation council, that he wanted to be immediately voted about, composed in the line with "as long as people love them!"
Of Confederation samples I know only the old South Confederation but then Americans has bombed it away. Approx.
Complain about this comment
threnodio, we don't hear here ab Klaus at all, I only learned that he exists and where he is and that he is after Sakozy for half a year in this thread. if he is our horse he is a very low profile kept one.
Complain about this comment
Alice -
He is a free market exponent of the von Hayek school, a pal of Ron Paul and a bosom buddy of Putin. This probably makes him barking mad like the rest of them but at least he might bring us back down to earth after the French presidency, which seems to have taken place, as far as I can see, mostly on Planet Zog.
I see they are extending the Russian presidency to 6 years. Is this a typing error? Didn't they mean 60?
Complain about this comment
tomricc @86, 84 and previous
Much of what you write is correct but somewhat out of context.
The USA Economy is a mature economy where the research and development is still based in the USA but the manufacturing has been transferred to China where the chinese workers will manufacture to instruction at a decimal percentage cost of manufacturing in the USA.
This means that American blue-collar jobs have relocated but the profits and returns are perceived to be cheap imports and taxed revenue on the American Corporations who own the blueprints, patents and oversee the production from raw material to finished product and realise huge profits. Thus USA manufactuirng output seems to fall but, in fact, USA manufacturing costs have fallen as labour costs are at almost slave-like levels whne compared to the USA worlers wage expectations.
The European economies are similarly mature economies but individual nations within europe have taken to different options to achieve diffferent results.
With my own eyes, working for a global UK-owned Pharmaceutical company during my last professional position and in various roles, I have seen large-scale manufacturing shift from the UK and the USA and France company-owned plants(where there are still large manufacturing plants) to diverse places such as Costa Rica, China and India where the cost of manufacturing (for example tablets) is 1/40th the cost per tablet manufactured in the UK. The reduced manufacturing cost is a massive boon to the company, increases taxable revenue for the UK Government and the only downside is that the UK, USA and French opretaions have had to become specialist amnufacturing centres where new drug manufacturing process are tried out before being relinquished to the cheap labour economies where manufacturing output can be scaled up. The downside is that the UK, USA and French company-owned manufacturing plants employ less people in those countries.
This automatically leads to the need for countries like the USA and the UK to struggle with unemployed labour where peoples jobs are at risk of collapse when the manufacturing is transferrred abroad.
Other European countries take a different path and choose to protect the jobs of their natives. Germany is an example of this type of "almost protectionist" type of economy.
Because the German's choose to keep manufacturing within Germany, they have to be willing to pay the high labour costs but this leads to high finished product prices. The Germans have to build in absolute perfection into their product so that the worldwide consumer has the option of either cheap and cheerfully priced products made (say) in China vs. expensive and high-quality products manufactured in parts of Europe (say Germany).
The choice is a National Government/Business Leadership decision and simply results in two ways of doing things in a practical businesslike way.
All else is simply the offshoots of economies being protective of home workers or being prepared to sacrifice quality for cheap labouring costs manufacture.
Basically, Commercial Businesses in Europe and the USA can no longer afford to pay people what they would like for their labour and jobs are going to go abroad to the cheap labour countries or the companies go bankrupt.
As an example, one can see this happening in the USA with General Motors and Ford (which may or may not get a bailout from the Federal Government) where the bottom line is that car manufacturing and jobs are going to go to India or China and the US Car Plant workers either go and work for almost nothing in those countries or try and become specialists in a trade or profession related to car prototype development.
As another example, for Germany, this means that the Germans keep aspiring for more and more perfection but the cost of reasearch and developmet to attain those high levels of quality will simply get more and more expensive or they start to think like the Anglo-Saxons and export manufacturing to China or India and think of trying to develop specialist trades and professions that support the indigenous companies who cannot be provided that expertise in China or India as yet.
I am not defending global businesses in their seeking to diminish jobs in the one country at the benefit of employing cheap labour in another country but merely point out that economic statistics for an economy do not always give the true picture of how well or poorly an economy is actually doing.
Complain about this comment
@74 MAII on a MAYIII unbucking horse.
Nanotchka what i want to know is when will RussUss? ia turn off oil and gas for a while to let them know in Eu?r who is the boss in Georgia and Ukraine.
MAII unless you personally crawl over to our tube to make a hole in it...
which in fact you are constantly doing trying to dislocate the brains of the heads of state in the countries of transit.
we got tired counting your sweet-william revolutions, rose revolutions, oranges revolutions ... and other US foreign policies in the Russian Sphere of Interest failures. (Georgeous failures and Victorious failures. for example)
why can't we wish all is peace and quiet where our tube passes through to the West? it is a sphere of interest allright.
you democracy establishing intentions in Ukraine and Georgia etc. is all very noble and allright, but somehow democracy - she didn't spent there a night yet.
would be fun to see you once for a change with democracy establishment intentions at a place which is not a Russian immediate neighbour and where there are no tubes or gas. in such a place we will gladly support your best intentions. in fact we do. in Afghanistan.
so stop stealing honey from the Russian bear and all will be allright. or we will also have to get an umbrella from you. like that Winnie the Pooh who tried to climb the tree. and prentended he is a cloud or something.
Complain about this comment
MAII @74 "why doesn't Putin just proclaim himself tsar for life the way other juntas do it.
Yes, all awful. We blame Sarkozy. That EU we never communicated with much before!
looks like Medvedev and Putin saw too much of him when discussing Georgia in his visits to Moscow. and picked up some fleas!
:o)
because all we hear here is "we will have it like in France, you do like it how things are in France, right? so France has always had 6 years presidency (or is it 7?)." :o)
Mavrelius people have such governments as they deserve. there will be elections, mind it. they will be falsified but not more than possible elegantly. to get a beautiful even round convincing number. 85% looks bad. 54% is very poor. 72 is nice and beautiful.
the majority will vote for Putin. how do I know? i live on the ground. how do gays know they are a minority? they simply know, without any elections. likewise I know, anyone against Putin - now, as minimum - is a minority in Russia.
"c'est la vie". or, "a la guerre com a la guerre". depends.
of the jokes last week. "You don't get born as a President. (normal continuation - you can only work to become one.)
You can only die as one!"
On the cheerful side I see two options. A. surprises inherent in the fabric of Russian mould-up. I wrote elsewhere, I have trust in my Russian tsars. straight road to 2024 very boring, predictable and un-Russian.
B. Even if no surprises, Putin can only improve.
And finally, MAII - it is your boring unexciting way to re-place presidents by means of elections!
we never do that, your democratic rules go against Russian history and acquired tastes combined.
you have basically imposed this un-natural democracy election game on us and we are like that rock group now, Pretenders.
How much more refreshing and rewarding fun is to change your presidents by good old means of coups and revolutions.
we changed tsar Nicolas to tsar Lenin by coup. and revolution. tsar Lenin died so Stalin sneaked in untimely but he also plotted around much and intrigued like there is no tomorrow. but OK, no coup and revolution in that case (note what it led to)
Khrsuschev intrigued but no coup, and no fun either. Brezhnev to Khruschev was a coup. The small ones to Gorby was a coup. Gorby to Yeltsin was a coup.
I think it is much healthier to apply a revolution or a coup or a prestroyka each 4 yrs than your boring elections.
Complain about this comment
Menedemus, for once your analysis is essentially correct. China is a subsidy of the US when it comes to manufacturing. But there is more to it than cheap labor, $30 a month there versus $30 an hour in the US (loaded cost) which is not one fourtieth but closer to one two hundredth the cost. There are other savings as well. No strict polution or safety standards for one. No lawsuits for acccidents. And lots and lots of labor. In fact, a US company can actually use prison labor if the product requires unskilled labor at no cost and split the profits with the Chinese government. It is true that this costs US jobs but US unemployment has been relatively low while millions of jobs are done for American labor at huge profits. If these jobs weren't exported, we simply don't have the people here to do them and this would represent an enormous lost opportunity of capital. BTW, a lot of those jobs migrated to China from other cheap but not as cheap places like Mexico and the Phillipines. There are other advantages for US manufacturing in China. There is only one central government to deal with and unless there is a massive revolution which would certainly be put down with utmost force, the political climate is stable. In effect, America has found a very cheap and convenient way to do a lot of the dirty work we don't want done here. And while conditions and pay may be miserable for most workers in China by Western standards, it is better than the entirely agrarian life where there were periodic famines before Nixon and Kissenger opened China up. Maybe it's cynical but it is working as intended.
This still leaves the fact that the heavy technological lifting, the brainstorming, the business planning, the R&D is done in the USA. As for quality of manufacture, that depends entirely on what the US owner company wants from its suppliers. Chinese companies can be formed and operated to create high precision products at low cost if desired. Japan did it. A Lexus is easily the equal in quality of a Mercedes, in fact Toyota's and Honda's reliability has been far better in recent years than Daimler's products. And we see that Nikon and Canon have largely replaced Lietz and Leica as the standard of manufacture for high quality optics for photography, microscopy and other applications. If there is any technical advantage to the European products, they are far outweighed by their substantially higher cost and are only of value to the user in the rarest of cases. As for European electronics, that is largely a joke.
Nanotchka, are you saying that rUSSRia will not cut off or threaten to cut off Germany, Poland, and a few other coutries in Western Europe the way the inadvetently did a few years ago when Ukraine didn't pay its gas bills? Now that doesn't sound like the Vlad KGB Putin I've come to know and love.
Complain about this comment
The USA College Educational System is too expensive.
My observation
The Primary School system is low Quality overall.
The USA does not have a Vocational/Technical Educational System like some countries such as Germany.
Business week
The WTO and other Trade Treaties have damaged the US Economy.
The USA Health System is not Competitive.
World Health Organization and others
The Judicial System is Broken.
8 Million in Correctional system, Rich go free and average person cannot afford to buy their freedom. Also Death Penalty
USA Energy System is also Broken, Importing most of our Energy, Using old Technology and Wasteful.
Use 25% of world Oil and Economy is about 18% of world total, lack of Renewables, Conservation,etc.
USA Infrustructure needs massive upgrades(Roads,Sewers,Bridges,Canals,Ports,Water Systems,Dams,Electrical Grids,etc)
Society of American Engineers.
Translation: The USA Economy is not Competing, We have a Rich Elite and a country in Massive Debt and Decline.
Proof is in the massive trade debts including High technology products.
Germany may or may not Keep thier high standard but if they fail it will be from Corruption as always.
This is the real Problem for the world-Corruption, Concentration of power,Short sighted leaders and owners of capital.
From 2000-2007 the weakest job growth since the 1930's and in 2008 1.5 million jobs lost so far.
From 2000-2007 the jobs that made were in Healthcare, Government and some Retail, most other sectors lost jobs or had no job growth.
From 2000-2008 we are 13.5 million jobs short of normal recovery and Growth post-war period.
We have a Big, Big Problem.
It Starts with a corrupt Government and a People who are not engaged with their country.
Complain about this comment
Marcus @ #94
For once my analysis was essentially correct?
I thought I was like you. Perfect every time and it was just my typing that was rubbish! ;=)
My former employing global pharmaceutical company did an analysis of the exact manufacturing costs of all tablets manufactured in the UK where the company does have 5 or 6 manufacturing sites. The cost of tablet manufacturing compared to the same tablets manufactured for the company in China was 40 times that of the China made tablet. Tablet batch runs are literally thousands of tablets and with maybe three lines operating and producing three or 4 different tablets each day one can immediately see the economies of scale when comparing the UK to China. Given that some tablets can retail at as much as 8000 (GBP) each for the more exotic low number runs to a mere few pennies (GBP) for hundreds of thousands of tablet mass produced - the profit margin, having exported the labour costs, makes enormous sense for companies such as my former employer.
These tablets were prescription-only tablets but the company also produces over-the-counter medications and non-pharmceutical products such as dental hygene products. The profits are enormous for the companies and the tax revenues for the UK ever-increasing.
However, as an example of the de-humanising aspect to this process, my former pharmaceutical company has recently announced the closure of one of its sites in the UK commencing next year but this is unrelated to the UK's financial difficulties. There will be a huge loss of blue-collar worker employees jobs just as the job losses resulting form the recession are increasing in the UK. It is just further evidence to me that employment in manufacturing is moving away from the expensive labour countries to the cheaper labour countries.
By the same token, research and development continues apace for the company in both the UK and the USA where the two countries still have the technical and scientific expertise.
p.s. I wonder if the pharmaceutical company manufacturing site you visited recently was owned by my former employer. It has two manufacturing plants in PA at Upper Merion (was three and now two plants) and at King of Prussia? Just being nosy! ;=)
Complain about this comment
Following on from my observations where I have seen at first hand the results of exporting employment to China, India and other places such as Cost Rica where manufacturing can be done at a fraction of the labout costs in mature economies such as the United Kingdom.
It is self-evident that, over the last couple of decades, jobs in the UK have become more service-based and, perhaps, the biggets employer in the United Kingdom is now the Government/Local Authorities who seem to be able to create Quangos and non-jobs like confetti.
Arguably these jobs are paid for by Income Tax but they are also funded by Capital Gains and Business Tax and Business Rates which accrue even more revenue for the Goverment than Income Tax (I imagine?).
Thus, profitable and efficiently run companies like my former employing global pharmaceutical company may shed UK jobs but there is always the fact that, for the UK Government, jobs lost in manufacturing can be seen as increased business-related tax revenue. Whilst this could be disastrous for people, the population is pacified by the creation of government sponsored service-based jobs which pay the bills but have no productivity.
Complain about this comment
To threnodio (80):
Heated discussion is what brings the truth in front.
Lets continue from British special relationship with the US. May I ask how much evidence do you need to accept that UK-US relationship is one way street where US calls the shots? How would you accept that UK has gone the route of Finlandization?
Let me make an argument and see do you agree with it or not.
Media guides and controls politics and the nation. It raises issues, it criticizes and it defends government positions and policies. It raises and braces candidates and political figures as well as brings them down and disgraces them. Media in modern democracies is a key element of their proper functioning.
When we are looking at the US-UK relationship, what we have to remember that control doesn't in modern context have to mean direct or visible control. There are many forms of indirect control, but the most effective form of indirect control is control of mass media. In UK Newscorp has hijacked and concentrated into its hands sizable portion of British media. This position and control it has used to launch directed media campaigns to advantage the political aims of its owners.
Of course Newscorp doesn't have monopoly to British media, but what you have to understand is that is not needed. What it has done by taking extreme views on its media campaigns is to skew the whole media into its general direction. In the last 20 years these continual campaigns have moved not only general public opinion to its side, but it also has rolled other media actors towards its line.
Now you could of course say that the representatives in parliament have the spine to resist and beside these media campaigns to put the British interest ahead of media. Unfortunately human nature is too sinuous for this. If there is an opportunity to take, there is somebody to take it. Essentially in districts that are close races, media can either slay or raise a candidate. This leads into a situation where candidates and in the end government has to bow down and satisfy the needs and wants of media.
So, the question you have to answer are: does Newscorp have influence in UK; has that influence been used to further specific goals; is Newscorp in tipping point position where its decisions make up the opinion of the media?
If you can recognize that this is true, then you should also easily notice the link from Newscorp to Rupert Murdoch to American neo-conservative elite.
So how is it? What is your opinion?
---
To SuffolkBoy2 (75):
Actually, I'm sorry, you are completely right. Now let me help you.
Have you heard this thing called anarchy? Its great, truest me! Let me explain...
When the false regime collapses, its artificial power structures of oppression and suppression vanish, anarchy ensues, from the chaos a true power manifests itself and replaces the false society and its structures with new, true order!
Unfortunately House Rules restrict me from expressing direct advice on what to do, but let me quote Thomas Jefferson: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Now to offer my moral support for your struggle let me offer these inspiring songs in a token of true European brotherly solidarity.
As I don't know your age...
If you are grampster:
http://www.deezer.com/track/124155
If you are hipster:
http://www.deezer.com/track/237514
Now go get them tiger!
---
To moderators:
Yes, yes, its perfectly legal.
http://www.deezer.com/legal/about-us.php
Complain about this comment
Re post 76, Jukka it is a pity your prejuduces get in your way some times.
Re the U.K not leading Europe, Threnodio has responded to this already but would like to add my views. THe U.K. has not led the E.U. done down a federal path, which I am glad of. It has, as Threnodio says, led the enlargement charge and still does. Further more it was one of the few countries that led the way in allowing people from the accession countries to come to the U.K. to work without restriction form the very beginning. Unlike the leading countries you such admire such as France. This decision caused much political backlash within the U.K but was persevered with any way.
I do not believe free trade was the cause of the conflicts you refer to, far from it. You seem to suggest without the wider frame work of a federalist system such conflicts would reoccurr. I cannot agree with that, but will watch the countries in the NAFTA area for outbreaks of hostility.
Also the U.K. has led the E.U in attempts to reform the CAP, unfortunately France has continually blocked this. It is a pity France so often puts it's own narrow polirical national interedts above the interests of the E.U. Similar arguments could be has re the riddiculous and suureal situation of having two Parliaments, again France won't budge, let alone lead the E.U. in this area.
I agree with you that the U.K. should show more leadership, but not towards a federal europe but back towards the light of what the the european union should be, a free trading block. I do accept this needs rules and regulations, but much of these can and should be dealt with by a much leaner organisation with the E.C.J. being the deciding factor. For example we do not need a E.U. Parliament, the council of ministers should be the only real source of law making within the E.U.
You sometimes make some useful contributions to the debate, such as the importance of the E.U. supporting accession countries infra structure so they can be come full and useful memebrs of the community. I see that is important. But it is not useful for countries to contribute over and above that merely for that money to be recycled and returned to the same county to fund projects that should be the perogative of the Nation state. Or worse for it to support apparently wealthy countries in maintaining an inefficient agricultural system.
I am a little frustrated at your inability to atleast recognise there is another valid pioint of view as to which direction the E.U should go in.
Just one final comment I feel that Germany is one of the few countries in Europe that does make , or atleast try to make, a self less contribution to the E.U. project. Still think they are wrong in the direction they want the E.U. to go but can respect them for most of the time putting the E.U. above their own narrow national interests, unlike their close ally.
Complain about this comment
#98 - Jukka_Rohila
This one is pretty straight forward. There are essentially only three media which can genuinely be said to have significant influence on the political mindset of the British electorate.
Broadcast Media: Radio is relatively apolitical. Commercial channels are far more interested in attracting advertisers than winning votes so you are far more likely to find bias between which rock groups should win awards than which party should form the government. These leaves the field for the 'thinking person's media' pretty much in the hands of the BBC which is bound by it's charter to be a free and impartial broadcaster. Whether or not it is, I will come to in a moment. Television is much more powerful, partly because it is more popular but also more varied. Basically, when it comes to news and current affairs, all television channels are bound by the same rules which are administered by Ofcom. Terrestrial TV channels are bound by the terms of their licence to provide some news and current affairs programing. News has to be given impartially. There is much more flexibility in current affairs when producers may program material which reflects their personal views but is subject to rules of fairness in relation to factual accuracy.
I am not sure of the actual figures but terrestrial channels make up the bulk of British consumption notwithstanding that cable and satellite are readily available. Newscorp has a dominant position in satellite controlling both Sky and SSkyB but their power within the terrestrial sector is very small. Moreover, even if their penetration was significant, they would be subject to strict scrutiny. Put very simply, a British version of Fox News would be illegal.
I can therefore confidently dismiss any idea that Newscorp as a broadcaster has any significant influence at all.
The Press: In Britain this tends to falls (according to those who are supposed to understand these things) into two categories - 'popular and quality'. In fact, I would add a third category which you might loosely call 'middle brow' consisting of the Daily Mail and Daily Express. Of the 'quality' papers, Newscorp has Times Newspapers in its stable but the Monopolies and Mergers Commission laid down strict controls when the take over was allowed many years ago. As far as I know, these rules are still in force and are supposed to guarantee editorial independence. That does not mean that they are required to be impartial. It does mean that the editorial board, not the proprietor decides editorial policy. This appears to work - indeed The Times has, from time to time, been quite critical of Newscorp. The remainder of the sector, the Telegraph, Guardian, Independent and Financial Times (and their Sunday titles) are not in the Newscorp stable.
At the other end of the market are the 'comics'. I do not think there is any doubt that Murdoch does have a say in what his sector of the market says. Why else would British politicians so assiduously court him? Actually I would question whether all this attention is justified. The Sun for example, claims to be the paper that won the 1997 election for Labour. I doubt this very much but the Sun would have been thought of as a Tory paper in earlier years. What I am suggesting is that Murdoch's papers tend to make up their minds quite late in the process and are not predictably Tory or Labour. This is very different from the States where cynics have suggested that the Republican Party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Newscorp.
For these reasons, I simply do not accept your prognosis that Newscorp or any other media empire has an undue influence on the media. But I go further. I do not think that the media are especially influential in the political thinking of the nation with one significant exception and that is the BBC, which is immensely powerful. There is a debate to be had about both the power and the impartiality of the BBC but that is a different matter because you asked about Newscorp.
Why do I say that? Because the press tend to write what their readers want to read. Telegraph readers are more likely to be Tories, Guardian readers to be Labour. In other words, however loudly the press may make a case, they tend to be 'preaching to the converted'.
The third medium to which I refered is, of course, the web which, mercifully appears to be beyond anyone's control.
Complain about this comment
#98 - Jukka_Rohila
By the way, in the old days, the thinking was:
The Financial Times is read by the people who own the country.
The Times is read by the people who run the country.
The Guardian is read by the people who think someone else should run the country.
The Telegraph is read by the people who used to run the country.
The Mail is read by the wives of the people who used to rune the country and . .
The Sun is read by people who don't give a damn who runs the country providing she has nice knockers.
Complain about this comment
threnodio @ 100 + 101
To be perfectly fair to Murdoch and The News Corporation, if one looks up their website and sees the stable of newspapers owned by the Corporation one can see that they own pretty much of all of Australia's papers.
If Jukka_Rohila's Thesis of NewsCorp having that much influence on public opinion through the media, Australian politics would be somwhere slightly East of Ghengis Khan's territory, New Zealand would be under the Jackboot of lager-swigging fascists and the nation would have been a right-wing Republic many moons ago.
Actually, they have a left-wing socialist government, are some of the craziest POM bashers going yet many of them still love her Majesty, the Queen as Head of State for Australia.
Of course, Jukka is not alone in thinking that Rupert Murdoch is such a big influence but I really do believe that Murdoch's main pre-occupation is the profit motive. His real money-maker business is Sky Television which has so many channels that he would find it very hard to find a particular group of people whom he could use Sky to pervert to be right-wing Fascisti!
Having siad all that, I am convinced the new Bob The Builder "Big Fish, Little Fish" song is subliminal and influencing children worldwide in some way!
Complain about this comment
#102 - Menedemus
I quite agree. I was answering Jukka's specific allegation regarding the UK media.
Can't say I have heard B the B's latest masterpiece but I am surprised he is still around, having just watched a news item on BBC World that the Romanian government has just granted import permits for 10,000 building workers from Asia and have been asked to approve a further 70,000, such is the shortage of skilled workers and the waiting list for a plumber is 3 years.
Complain about this comment
threnodio
@90 looked up Ron Paul and von Hayek alas same unknown to me folk as Klaus.
Fr. von Hayek understood nothing.
Ronald Paul seems a charmer. i think you would disagree with him, in an indirect zig-zag of thought. you'd concentrate the EU military agenda under one umbrella, have it as jointly managed from may be some central control panel. approx.
Ron Paul darling would just dis-arm entirely. ? or would not expedition abroad as min. nevermind. (i'd rather have it as it is, the EU to continue to discuss shape of the carrots :o)
"typing error; did they mean 60"
accidentally i replied to this rhetorical question in the @93 to MAII. and oh god - as well as I could.
which reminds me.
Menedemus @96 - "For once!"
Such is MAII; you give him a hand - he chops off the whole arm! An irresistable fellow, too good to be true. Llike those round capitalists in striped trousers with cigars in the mouth that my Soviet cartoonists used to scare me with.
Old classics, you know, it's not modern hip-hop. Classics always beat all.
MAII, "Medvedev and Putin are keeping council on Nov 4th, how to congratulate the new president-elect. Medvedev asks Putin - if McCain wins, what should we say?
- Well. Say that we are happy and all, and happy that their US democracy after all won't be far gone from ours.
- And if Obama wins?
PM Putin plunges into thoughts.
- Tell them we are happy and congratulate them and all, and you might wish to mention we are happy see they recognised their failure with colour revolutions export; changed to import instead.
threnodio @101
...and what are those who read "The Moscow Times" !
Complain about this comment
with Jukka it's simply genetic-level instincts speaking in him. he vaguely remembers, on the genetic level, that it is nice to live in a big country. misses the power. feels mis-placed in the tiny Finland not part of the Russian Empire any longer. looks for compensation. wants big and scary centralised EU. "c'est tout."
Complain about this comment
To WebAliceinwonderland (105):
Things to do before morning, so in a hurry, but ca'moon, we Finnish are already living in a big country. We have more Lebensraum than any other country in the EU. Only 15,6 persons per square kilometer.
Complain about this comment
just what we should doto EU FLAGS [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Complain about this comment
WHOS BEHIND RAIL PRIVAISATION, ROAD PRICE ANSWER EU
Rail privatization: EU directive 91/440/EEC required rail privatization to take the form of the unwieldy separation of ownership between rolling stock (trains) and the rails themselves. This has caused endless funding and maintenance problems. This is not merely an expensive and an inconvenience: the resulting confusion in lines of responsibility was one of the factors blamed for the Hatfield Rail disaster.
Road pricing: The hugely controversial and unpopular proposal that drivers be taxed from road usage has its origin in an EU directive finally agreed by the UK, without Parliamentary scrutiny, on 21 June 2007. The EU Directive, ?Road Tolling Interoperability of Road User Charging and Road Tolling Systems? sets down common requirements for charging and surveillance technology across the UK. As an AA spokesman observed: ?this is the worst nightmare for those who fear ?Big Brother? tracking.? [Daily Telegraph, 22 June 2007.]
Post office closures: The current round of enforced post office closures is as a direct result of the need to get the UK postal services industry ?ready? for European directive requirements coming into force in 2009. The relevant directive, 97/67/EC (later re-numbered 2002/39/EC) obliges all EU member states to open their domestic postal services to EU-wide competitive processes, in the name of ?quality of service?. In order to prevent continued ?fragmentation? (ie national ownership of postal services) governments will no longer be able to adequately subsidise commercially uneconomic post offices in, for example, rural or inner city areas, which consequently will have to close.
5
Complain about this comment
#About China? FYI ? the minimum salary was introduced in China not long ago.
nobody wants to work in China for 150-200 Euro any more? 300-400 becomes minimum for qualified workers. So now the trend is to move the production into Vietnam or Cambogia etc.
But interestingly several german companies closed their production lines in China and returned to Germany for quality reasons.
20. PatienceOver :
While Wall Street and the City were playing monopoly, Germany was working hard, rebuilding the country and trying to create real wealth.
#Everything goes in circles ? the US and Britain are going to pay for the roulette capitalism.
Chinese with their huge USD reserves are on the buying tour.
MAII is so emotionally anti russian that i start wondering if he ends his days like the famous American
General who jumped from the window in (NY ?) crying ?Russians are coming?)
Complain about this comment
Nanotchka, does living in a large country make you feel large, powerful, rich? Do you live in a large house with lots of servants at your beck and call, millions in the bank? Does living in a country with the largest land area make you feel important, safe, part of something enormous? Well enjoy your illusions only don't turn on the TV or read the newspaper or visit any news blog sites or your bubble may burst. It seems to me that Russia is one of those places people who see the world clearly and were born there prefer to be from :-)
Complain about this comment
#104, WebAliceinwonderland,
Alice, you ask "...and what are those who read "The Moscow Times" !."
I would hazard a guess that they're lucky they don't have to 'read' the Sun or the Sunday Sport, which is one that was not mentioned as it just loves UFO's, aliens and anything else that's fantasy, LOL.
#103, threnodio,
I've heard this before I think, as I'm sure Romania is not the only 'new' country importing Asian workers to replace the Romanians that work in countries like the UK. It is unbelievable that this can be allowed within an EU framework when one considers the high and rising unemployment. Mind you, now that the recession has hit and building work is quite frankly stagnant, I'm surprised that the UK's EU building workers are not returning to their country of origin to take advantage of those vacancies, or are the UK being a soft touch once again.
Complain about this comment
MA 1. yes 2. you can imagine 3. yes
the last one. yes
Complain about this comment
EU directive 91/440/EEC
Section 3, Article 6 - makes it clear that these functions shall be accounted for separately . There is no obligation for them to be run as separate companies or for either or both functions to be privatised. The Guardian reported on Jan 16 2001 that Railtrack were aware of cracked rails at the location 10 months before the crash. To blame that on the EU is scaremongering of an outrageous order.
Road pricing: The EU directive applies only to toll roads of which there are only a few miles in the UK. No such limitations are made on roads paid for from the road fund licence and other sources of revenue.
2002/39/EC: This relates to minimum standards for postal services. It has absolutely no bearing on services provided by Post Office Counters Ltd, which is a retail operation providing additional services. The provision of retail services is beyond the scope of the directive and decisions regarding closures are made on commercial criteria only.
Complain about this comment
#111 - Buzet23
I think it is perfectly believable and - in my view - acceptable. People from eastern Europe who have gone westwards have either undertaken menial work such as fruit cropping and cleaning that was 'beneath the dignity' of the local folks or have taken good craft skills where they were needed and been properly rewarded for it.
What is slightly strange is that it should be Romania. Romania and Bulgaria were the two countries which had migration capped in response to public scare tactics in the west that the Romanians would be 'the next Poles'. One group who was not restricted was the self-employed, which suggests that large numbers of craft workers took a high risk strategy which has obviously paid off.
One of two things will happen. Either they will drift back as work in the west begins to dry up or commercial developers will have to grit their teeth and pay them to go back. If that happens, the mobility of labour which is a cornerstone of the European project will have succeeded in raising living standards for skilled workers, which has to be good.
Complain about this comment
To WebAliceinwonderland (64):
The acceptable delay time for a girl... that's a hard question...
Well, we have a saying that "for something good it's worthwhile to wait". The truth however is that if a date is set into a certain time then people should be there at that time. Punctuality is a virtue!
Fortunately that isn't the whole truth. What you have to understand is that even thought we Finns like to be punctual, like to follow rules and guidelines, we are extremely flexible and if pending the rules or changing the plans have an acceptable reason, then everything is forgiven.
So if a girl is late for 5 minutes, I call her, get the new time of arrival or re-arrange plans to suite the situation. Usually however if the other person knows that she will be late for few minutes or more she calls before I have the chance. Thank god for mobile phones :)
Oh and about Buddenbrook. Its not about business actually, its about living, its about people getting caught between right and wrong, between pressures of society and conventions. It has many tragic persons in it. If anything, its more readable and enjoyable than Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. No offense, but with it I had to in many times just force myself to continue reading it, luckily I got it completed :)
And if we go to Victorian code of conduct for woman then I have to note that the most serious offense you made against it was to talk or even think about matters of the state as everyone knows that god created woman to take care of home and thus didn't give her the rational mind of man but instead a big heart to take care of her man and children! :-D
Complain about this comment
@106 Jukka do smth about it, you live awfully tight. We have 8.
Sincerely, your Big Sister
Complain about this comment
threnodio @114 how come Romanians got depleted.
they got lost to us.
the EU isn't the only place where Romanians are in high demand.
opp. my dacha is a rich New Russian dacha, across the road. our old neighbours sold out the land spot. now there stands a brick pentagon of 12 bedrooms. 6 Romanians and 6 moldovians used to live there and build it simultaneously and wonder how 2 Russians can live in 12 bedrooms. they sold me 6 bags of portland cement but then got continuously drunk and didn't cement the floor in our garage as promised. so I had to do it myself! in my angry view the EU can have them all !
Complain about this comment
You know Nanotchka, for centuries after canons were invented, people still deluded themselves that living in a castle was a safe place to be in case of an enemy attack or invasion. And some people still feel that way. But the reality is that these old castles are for the most part drafty dark dingy relics of a time when people fought with bows and arrows, spears, and swords that don't even offer much in the way of creature comforts unless a fortune has been spent to modernize them, an undertaking ususally far more expensive than building a much better new house from scratch. So you feel safe in fortress Russia?
BTW, I'll let you know when I am coming over. Tell the servants to lay in a good supply of Beluga caviar. I am not particularly fond of Servuga or Ossetia. And oh yes, I'll let you know what vintages of Dom Perignon I prefer with that, probably the 1990. Vodka just doesn't cut it for me.
Complain about this comment
@115 Jukka_Rohila
I knew it! but hoped, vaguely hoped, that may be... but in just several minutes.... you start calling! "what's the matter, 2 min late?"
oj oj oj
here the standard is 15 min. when nobody calls nobody. Putin won't wonder where is Medvedev, and vice versa. 15 min - it's for men.
for girls - don't know how to put here that sign, number 8 on the side. eternity.
OK will look for those Buddenbrooks, may be in the house some place.
I'll be deeply assaulted if you suspected me in having "rational thinking." so much more inferior to my irrational one. good that you don't. so here is a joke for you in award:
"when a hot Finnish guy meets a cool Finnish lass there starts a reaction of condensation in the shape of rain over Helsinki" :o)
(St. Petersburg recent patented, all rights reserved.)
Complain about this comment
#115 -Jukka_Rohila
#116 - WebAliceinwonderland
I have a confession. I have never been able to finish Crime and Punishment but it has saved me a fortune in sleeping pills.
'Only 15,6 persons per square kilometer' . . . ?
No wonder you are such a big fan of the CAP.
Have you tried phosphates?
Complain about this comment
On this website I read:
"Sicily medics claim cash for dead
Doctors in Sicily have been claiming state money for some 50,000 patients still on their medical lists despite being dead, Italian media says. "
Reports of corruption in Italy just go on and on and on. I read other reports of other cases on Austrian websites.
I could not possibly want to be in a political union with the Italians. I could not want to give any money to an organisation like the "EU" in which they have an influence. I could not possibly want any court containing Italian judges to have any power over UK citizens.
I cannot wait to be free of the "EU".
Pizza -YES!!
"EU" - NO!!
Complain about this comment
On this website I read:
'Top Italy G8 riot police cleared
Riots in Genoa in 2001
The clashes were some of the worst in the summit's history
The most senior police officials charged in connection with the handling of riots at the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy, in 2001 have been cleared.
A court in the northern Italian city sentenced 13 officers to prison and acquitted another 16.
There were cries of "shame" from the public as the acquittal of the police chief was announced.
The clashes were some of the worst in the summit's history. One protester died and hundreds of people were hurt.
...
This was the last of three major trials arising out of the rioting.
Charges ranged from beating protesters to planting evidence and conducting arbitrary searches.
The BBC's David Willey in Rome says many of the police officers on trial are still in service and some have even been promoted.
Two of them are currently holding high-ranking posts in Italy's anti-terrorism unit and in the secret service.
The prosecution had asked for sentences totalling more than 109 years but the sum was 35 years and seven months.
A key focus of the trial was a police charge into a school where protesters were staging an alternative summit.
Vittorio Agnoletto, a summit protest organiser and now an MEP, told Reuters news agency: "Today is one of the saddest days in the post-war history of the republic.
"From now on police chiefs who allow their men to smash the heads and the backs of people sleeping peacefully can be sure of impunity and the guarantee of a fine career."
But interior ministry undersecretary Alfredo Mantovano said the verdict showed the Italian police force was "healthy and deserves everybody's gratitude". '
There are too many cases of police brutality in Italy. There are too many in the UK because one is too may, but the Italians are far worse.
In general there seems to loads of police brutality on the continent.
I read reports of it in Austrian papers as well. Continentals who live in the UK tell me about it. They despise their own police. British police officers tell me how much they despise the methods of continental policemen.
The "EU"s anti-corruption unit, Olaf has refused twice to tell me whether they think they are entitled to arrest and question people in the UK. Maybe somebody else would like to email them and ask.
If they are "entitled" to arrest, detain and question in the UK, then I would like to know what their rules of engagement are and whether they think they are entitled to carry guns.
Italian policing seems to be frequently pretty disgusting.
European Gendarmes are training in Italy. I don't mind them being taught to cook there, but I do object to them receiving police training there.
On the UKIP website I read that the government has refused to rule out them being deployed here.
If they or Olaf are to be deployed here, then I need to know what their rules of engagement are and whether it is considered to be lawful to resist with violence illegal fascist violence coming from a police officer.
Complain about this comment
Oh! Oh! Threnodio!
Threnodio!
Have you ever complained about police methods on the continent?
Complain about this comment
MA 110, remembered, ab the bubble we live in, that you worry there isn't anyone to help open our eyes.
Ab a week ago watched with pleasure on my Rus TV your American fellow, forgot his name smth Armstrong or similar, and where he spoke in. Smth like your parliament if you have one (sorry never cared to learn your systems). Anyway he was describing the changes in the unit he commands, in nice English, that is, American. He heads a special division, "digital smth" like special bla-bla bla troops ("Digital" def. part of the name of this gang), chaps ab 50 in quality by the look of it, who come to work, sit in front of PC screens, and chat in blogs pretending they are locals. For years. He explained until a week ago it was done only with countries like Iraq, smth else where is oil and your interests, Saudi Arabia may be, all those intricate eastern languages, Pakistan, he listed the list. From where terroristic threat can be expected for the territory of the USA, so the special digital unit is working there in the blogs, brainwashing the locals, softly explaining to them advantages of the USA way of life or smth. The list of objectives was read.
So, as of a week ago, it's been officially announced finance increases and Russia joins the list of potential terroristic threat to the territory of the USA sources. So Russian expats 2nd generation etc. - or may be first - will be working on us.
This news have added greatly to the mutual good feelings btw our loving countries, and must add created an unhealthy energetic drive in the Russia blogosphere. All are now interested to catch these US spies, tactics and strategies are discussed, local awards announced, and overall, in fact, looks like this hunt will be fun.
Complain about this comment
Nanotchka, why didn't you have your servants cement your garage floor for you? It seems to me that's the least they can do for you.
So you have 8 people per square kilometer in Russia and it's going down. How soon before it reaches zero? With two people living in a house with 12 bedrooms we have a name for that where I come from. We call it....a motel. Or a brothel, take your pick :-)
Complain about this comment
#123 - SuffolkBoy2
Yes - and was completely satisfied with the result. But then again, I am not a Brazilian plumber.
Complain about this comment
no why Mavrelius? what beluga? you'll go straight to McDonalds. we'll make sure you feel at home here, no constraints, Russian hospitality, I mean, a guest should feel at home.
I'll stock for you those dry crunchy flakes instead of normal breakfast, chicken McNaggets whatever lunch, and KFC for dinner!
There is a nice new KFC that grabatised recently the ground floor of the old Literature Cafe. The cafe is the old tea rooms Wolf & Berange where Pushkin had his last "eclere" or "buche" or "peti fours" (love them all) (think it's old French names)or smth, then went straight to the duel fom lunch and got killed.
When the occasion arrives of the new revolution I don't know who has plans to go where to blow up what, I'll head straight to that KFC.
(and, Mavrelius, caviar in all formats is in my supermarket, by weight, boring counters that raise no interest. btw chicken and fish. the most expensive thing, I noticed yest. - is not caviar neither oysters. it is a mysterious fish called "Dorada", lies on ice, small silvery round fishes. Flying in from I don't know where. Must be from you.
Complain about this comment
@121 SuffolkBoy2 claiming state money for some 50,000 patents dead
if you only knew what discoveries we are making, now finally able to count our Ossetians and Abkhasians "by head" !
I read someplace it was discovered we paid Russian pensions to 80,000 people there for years. Now all are falling down from feet trying to find there those mysterious 80 thousand pensioners. Or at least 8,000, allright. A thousand would be not bad, either, come to think about it.
@120 threnodio
Dostoyevsky is outrageously boring. Chekhov said that a century ago. I don't remember reading it full either, skipped in-between interesting places pages. I also feel bad about it, but I console myself that I have his table and it's enough. isn't it.
small tiny round thing on one weavy leg. in perestroyka I walked by his museum-apt. and saw a sign "sale". they were not financed for 10 yrs or smth. and began selling uninteresting pieces of Dostoevsky apartment furniture. I left there my monthly student allowance (40 roubles), embraced the table and walked with it away. I wish we have another revolution or perestroyka I like old furniture.
Complain about this comment
@125 gasterbeiters are awful spoiled these days. for no money they'd move an extra inch.
I got the recepie with much difficulty must say, and was sitting in the garage and melancholically mixing 1 part of water from the pond poured out by the kettle, 1 part of sand from the beach, brought to me by neighbours' car, and 1 part of that portland cement stolen by gasterbeiters from their masters, pouring it out from the paper bag by a tea cup. great results. was ill a year after.
Complain about this comment
Nanotchka
YeeeeeeeHA! McDonalds and KFC, now dem's eats. Keep your smelly fish eggs and rotting grape juice, I'll take the KFC. BTW Nanotchka, try the extra crispy after a few minutes in a toaster oven to make it even crispier. And don't forget the fries and slaw. I'll bring some Wild Turkey (Bourbon), forget that rubbing alcohol you folks drink too. And winter's on its way. You got a troika with horses maybe? Tell the servants to get them in harness, I'm on my way.
Complain about this comment
tomricc: The USA most certainly do have tariffs on imported goods, excepting those goods which are exempted by various free-trade agreements. Please follow the links for the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States Annotated (HTSA) at the Tariff Information Centre of the US International Trade Commission.
WebAliceinwonderland: There is a Portuguese fish called dourada - I think that it's a type of bream - that is round and silvery. Perhaps it is the same fish that has pride of place in your supermarket ?
Complain about this comment
Half the problem in germany(as the 2 who live in east germany will tell you) are the tax policies over the last 20 years.
Normal worker have had massive increases in taxes+insurance contributions while the rich and business have had massive tax cuts.
For example since 1998 industry and the very wealthy have had 1000 BILLION Euros in tax breaks while the ordinary worker now pays according the OCED 52,2% of their wages in taxes.
Taxes from wealth are only 0,9% from GDP instead of 5,5% in the UK and 6,5% in the USA.
Plus the welfare reforms in 2003(Hartz 4) and no minimum wage have contributed to less spending power.
Since 2000 the richest have gain 60% in real terms where the german workers have only gained 5,5%!
Thus is germany in a WORSE state to weather the recession because of lack of consumer spending(which will drop even further).
I must add while exports drop the economy will be in recession much longer than necessary because the german government still refuses to tackle this unbalance and is yet again giving tax breaks to people who dont need it.
Oh yes every 8th german child lives in poverty!(because of the tax/social policies in the last 8 years!)
Poverty has doubled since the year 2000!
Complain about this comment
about a girl
Alice,
you know sometimes it is worth waiting, having in mind that russian grils are a bit different, they prefer a man to wait a bit, al least at the begiing.
Complain about this comment
Talking about the russians do you lot know that in the 1990s about 1 million russians came to germany (Russendeutsche) but what a lot dont know is that many of them are pensioners who have never paid 1 cent in the german pension system but get the highest pensions because most of them claim to be engineers...(specialist)
Sometime more pension than the average worker gets after 45 years....(Which is also putting a strain on the system)+access to cheap credit(which normal germans cant even get unless you have 3 children) sometimes at 0,5% sometimes at 0%!
As a brit you get no help and my trade(electronics which i learned in the british army(REME)) is not recognised in germany and bascially you get kicked in the teeth..
Complain about this comment
#100 threnodio
there should be difference between quaöity press and mass press. In Germany the best
Nespapaers are die Zeit and Frankfurter
Allgemeine. There is also Bild. Each has its
audience.
What is good in Germany - they have special cultural programs (both TV and Radio) like BBC radio3)
ZDF info and ZDF docu - show very interestings films).
After seeinf one of the films - my son asked me - mama do you know - how long can crocodiles survive without food?
One year !- (i did not know).
More... - crokodiles can even regulate their body temperature - making them - survival champions.
To great unhappiness of MAII and all others
wiht anti russian phatology
Russians are like crocodiles. They are matchless.
Complain about this comment
#114, threnodio,
I'm also very much in favour about the mobility of labour and can well understand the point you raised about the westward (and northward) migration of semi-skilled labour from the 'new' EU countries but have two points.
The first is that if it means having to migrate workers in from outside the EU to replace shortages then it is a very bad sign that something is wrong. What the influx of building workers did in London was to drop the basic daily rate on a building site from between £70 to £50. The London building workers who in the main had their families there to look after are effectively priced out. The EU workers often live in a boarding house, often the property of the boss, can accept £50 and still have enough left to send a lot back home. I know a number of UK qualified building workers in London who were finding it impossible to make ends meet because of the price competition and now it must be even harder. There was also another factor, a district surveyor told me that the level of skill from the EU migrants was often very low and if their employer did not supervise them enough a lot of work was being condemned and had to be re-done to pass the building regulations. I don't know what the answer is to this but importing non-EU workers in to fill vacancies in low skilled jobs when we have very high unemployment is not the right one.
The second point is an old hobby horse of mine and that is that the social mobility of people is not the paradise EU lovers imagine. Working in multiple countries is a nightmare of contradictory laws and regulations due to the haphazard way in which EU directives are implemented. Welfare benefits in case of unemployment, pension rights, healthcare etc are all wide open. I can understand the reason why many go to the UK as at least it implements the rules and has a 'fair play' mentality so that you are protected. What the Eastern workers would find if they leave the UK and return home is another matter as that will depend on their home country and what the qualifying requirements are for welfare benefits, pensions etc.
#132, ChrisPBacon,
I heard about that 12 years ago when I worked in Germany as all my West German colleagues were fed up even then about having to pay a reunification tax on top of their already high taxes. What the Merkel changes have inspired I don't know but you're not the first here to say they've got it wrong on taxation policy. Since working there I've held the opinion that this is why they would like to harmonise taxation across the EU, rather than change their own high tax policies they want to level the playing field by making everyone else equally price uncompetitive. My point one above to threnodio considers this as it is one of the imbalances of free mobility of labour as well as industry, which I suppose is basic economics supply and demand theory. In that sense the German people must find it hard to migrate since the salary's on offer elsewhere are lower so they are in the most obliged to stay at home.
Complain about this comment
124 Alice,
No wonder. Of course US army uses all possible things which can work. Any army should do.
In the americaan barracks in Germany you can see posters ?Best soldier of the Month?
?Sergeant of the year? or the picture of Uncle Sam with hand up like in the Nazi Salute and
the slogan ?Join the army ? serve the country? .
Business as usual ? Propaganda is natural part of war.
Remember Georgian conflict - Kravatten Fresser organised PR complain in a good way ?white was sold as black and vice versa .
BBC,CNN,FOX added to the play. And the folk ate what was served.
Only now after the report of the EOSC (signed by the British Officer amonf others )
and several articles in NYT, Guardian etc. The public opinion in
UK and USA is getting the right info.
Complain about this comment
@Buzet23
Well actually as you know germans are very cautious people and dont like change.
My take is that germans are too scared too protest openly but when you speak to them(i live here since 1989 but i am a brit and served in the british army for 5 1/2 years but stayed in germany after meeting my wife) they are very very angry.
As history has showed Hitler came to power because of massive poverty NOT because of the jews!
My angst is that history could repeat itself again(it mustn´t) because the far right is getting more popular(in the East) and the established parties(CDU/SPD) just offer the same policies ...
Fact is 20 million pensioners have suffered high losses in their pensions,3,3 million unemployed plus 7,5 million germans are on state benefits-No minimum wage(there are jobs in east germany who pay only one pound fifty an hour) 5 million germans are on poor wage(under 9,60 Euros an hour=6 pounds) and 2 million on under 5 Euros(3 quid fourty pence).
Where I live(Bielefeld) in the west on local radio they reportet that 1 in 4 children are classed as poor-In germany you have to pay for the books at school(not like in the UK) and some children dont even get fed properly..No no its true.
Too add to that VAT has been risen von 16 to 19%,NI just keeps going up and up und on the other hand the rich keep getting new tax cuts.
When thats not potential for Riots and unrest than what is?
In the UK and France the masses would have been on the streets ages ago...
As for the press its all in the hands of Springerverlag(Bild) and Bertelsmann-They have thinktanks thut just push out propaganda and a with hunt against the unemployed-(like get on yer bike by tebbit in the 80s9-Only that so many jobs are poorly paid that people get forced(yes forced) by the job center to take them even though you cant live from the wages.
Germany good wagesß
that was 20 years ago-Now the polish wont come here anymore they´d rather go to the UK-It pays more money with lower taxes..
The only hope is 2009 i hope the Left party gets tons of votes only if it kicks the SPD/CDU in the backside and changes a few things...
Complain about this comment
Sry i forgot every year 140,000 more are leaving germany than coming here.
Highly skilled workers rather go abroad because they earn MORE money abroad...
I´m only still here because of my wife and children(oldest is doing her GCSEs(Mittlere reife) soon.
Even she would rather come to england than stay here in germany....
How times change...
Complain about this comment
I have friends in Essen and she is from Russia originally but a citizens now.
With a Secretary wage she purchased(2003) a 90 Square meter flat, owns a car and has vacation time most Americans can only dream about.
The Neighbor downstairs is also from another country but has Residency in Germany.
He is married and has two children.
He recieves about 700 Euros for himself from the welfare office and 750 for his dependents per month which is a total of 1450 Euros monthly or $1827.00(US Dollars)plus Health Insurance.
He works part time( he is allowed to work under 18 hours a week) and secretly works another job underneath the table.
He does okay for not having Education or high skilled training.
In the states he would be working for walmart making $6.50 an hour with no benefits and no welfare.
About 1/3rd of all Germans who receive Welfare or Unemployment work part-time legally(others illegally).
College Tuition is Free in 9 landers and the rest have cheap Tuition.
Germany has an extensive Vocational/Trade training system, the largest in the world.
Free of charge and with pay.
Galina my Friends, Friend went to Medical School in Germany, non-citizen and paid 1200 Euros a year in Tuition but the state sent her 300 Euros monthly so actually she paid nothing.
How much would that cost in America? 300,000
Some Germans are part of the 1.50 to 4.50 Euro Job Program but they are also receiving benefits and Health Insurance.
The Typical Single male in Germany who recieves welfare gets about 300 euros for rent, 350 for other expenses and if one asks the local city or town for more help you can get another 100 euros monthly plus free health Insurance.
The apartment is covered including heating and electricity, the food is paid for and a little bit of clothing, supplies can be bought with the benefits so the extra money they make off the Euro Jobs is actually good for them.
They are receiving about 1000 Euros a month in benefits including health Insurance plus they make another 180-540 a month doing Government services.
That's about 1250.00 US a month plus 225-675 per month.
Walmart worker makes about 6.50 an hour.
Take 25% away for taxes which equals 4.87 per hour.
Working 30 hours a week like the German work program would equal $584.40 per month and no Health Benefits.
That would be $433.91 Euros versus $750 monthly plus Health Insurance not Including the Government part-time job.
Germany style health benefits which include 100% hospitalization, Eyes and Dental would cost many thousands of dollars in the states!
The USA is not creating but losing jobs and we are about 13 million short of population growth over the past 8 years.
The only net gain in jobs were Government and Healthcare basically.
Don't know where all these high skilled Graduates(from other countries) are finding jobs when almost every sector of the economy is flat or losing jobs?
Actually even the Mexican workers are going back to Mexico here in Florida(Front page news in the Tampa Tribune)
This is why we had an Financial Meltdown several months ago, you can only borrow on Credit Cards and houses for so long to pay the bills!
Complain about this comment
Eastern Germany is much cheaper then the UK to live!
You can buy houses there for 30,000 Euros!
Complain about this comment
I read that citizens of the UK make up the numbers to come 3rd in the nations that have custom of the Dignitas Suicide Clinic in Switzerland, following behind Germans and the Swiss themselves.
Does that say something about the mentality of the British and Germans being very similar and that our lives are somehow the less for being residents of Germany and the United Kingdom?
Complain about this comment
I see Germans walking naked through the streets and smoking pot in front of the cops.
And they are scared to speak in Germany?
Scared of what?
They have 10 times less people in Prison per Capita then the USA and no Death Penalty.
They also have Law Insurance so everyone can be represented if they get in Trouble unlike the states for about $150 Euros a Year.
Complain about this comment
The Polish are buying houses in Eastern Germany along the border because the cost of living is cheaper in Germany then Poland and also the Towns are in Great Shape with Infrustructure versus their Polish Cousins.
That was front page news across the world.
Complain about this comment
I'm going to Canada to attend BZEE Wind Turbine Technician Training which is a German Certification.
Several German companies along with the Governments of Canada and Germany have set these schools up.
I would attend the schools in Germany but the language barriers exists so easier to attend the German Training in Canada.
In Germany Students have classroom training and then on the job training as they learn how to build and service wind farms.
They are paid about 10 Euros an hour as they learn and receive the training for free!
This kind of training would cost about $50,000 in the states and no paid learning.
This is another example of Germany being in the lead when it comes to Technology and training.
I'm willing to travel 3000 miles from Florida to attend the courses since this is the future(renewable energy).
If I stayed here in Florida it would be low wages and no benefits for the rest of my Life.
Complain about this comment
@tomricc
But you do know why germans get all these benefits?
because we pay twice as much tax here as the americians do...
10 euros an hour for training please tell me where i´d be intrested!
And you do know in germany if you say something wrong to the police you get a stiffer sentence than if you hit a child(a bit exaggerated but its true!)
telling a cop to p*** off costs a lot of money here!
And the legal insurance doesn´t cover a lot of things mostley car accidents,if i´v lost money or something has happend to me.
If someone sues me the insurance sometimes wont cover it ana case can cost a lot of money!
Sry to say this but the americans hate socialism but its far better than being worried if you´re sick and not having insurance to pay for it!
Complain about this comment
@tomricc
You mentioned your friends in essen.
Thats Hartz 4.
Do you why most germans are against it?
If you have worked nearly all your life and are not at retirement age-say 55 years old.Its no secret here if you are over 50 its nearly impossible to get a job.
After 12/18 months ALG1(Unemployment benefit) and you have no job you get Hartz 4.
Which is heating/rent paid + 351 euros if you are single and 311 per Adult if you are married.(per month).
There are 300000 germans on hartz4 who DONT have medical insurance!
So if you have saved a lot of money for retirement you will have to cash in your policies and use that money to live off.
This makes a lot of people angry because the state pension scheme is always falling in value and the GOVT: tells everyone to save for their retirement.
Whats the point if you be unlucky to be unemployed and then lose everything(escpecially if you are very sick)
On the other hand there are far too many here who work on the side,never got a proper job they benefit from Hartz 4!(Which makes me angry too)
On the other hand the german govt. always bleats on about theres no money for poor children but 500 billion Euros for failing banks and always money for tax cuts for the very wealthy(Who pay hardly anything into the social system because they are privatly insured-Only employers and employees pay with a bit from the federal govt. for the social insurances)
So bascially the costs are paid for by workers and employers who have a high workforce where capital and shareholders pay naff all!(And people who live off intrest payments)-this group pay less taxes (in %) and pay hardly nothing to the social system...
Complain about this comment
#147, ChrisPBacon,
It sounds like the situation in Germany is little different to that in Belgium or France, there are slight variations but the message is basically the same. Once you pass 50 you are finished and once you pass 57 (France) or 58 (Belgium) you are definately out of the job seeking community. In France a 57 year old who was cadre gets three years unemployment and can take their pension at 60, for non cadre I'm not sure. In Belgium I am 58 and unemployed but do not have to be a job seeker, and there is no time limit to the unemployment, which is just as well as although I could take a Belgian pension at 60, my UK one would not be paid until 65. This is one of the many little nasties that wait in the shadows for the unwary. If you don't get 'chomage' then it's the social aid of the CPAS and that's not very high.
Anyway ChrisPBacon, it sounds like you know your subject and it's just as well as none of the governments are playing fair with people over 50 as a friend of mine is finding out at the moment. He is also 58, Belgian, but unemployed in France, and due to certain regulations is obliged to stay in France in order to get his benefits. Establishing pension rights is another quagmire, although he's found his three years in Germany was it seems recorded dutifully and correct, the same cannot be said for his recent employment in France as he's had to engage a lawyer.
Complain about this comment
This is astonishing. :=)
Someone living in Germany is trying to criticise German Standards of Living and an American in Florida is criticising the American way of life.
And I thought it was only the British who did their own country down!
Keep it going, this is more fun than a game of table tennis. ;=)
New ping-pong ball . . . tomricc, to serve!
Complain about this comment
@tomricc
Yes , Germans pay high taxes , but in general quality of life . medical assistance and housing are of very high quality.
Try to compare ares close to Belefeld (german ex industrial region) with those round Manchester ? Manhester looks loke ghetto ? and that i ssupposed to be middle wprking class in eNgland
To ChrisPBacon and
#And you do know in germany if you say something wrong to the police you get a stiffer sentence than if you hit a child(a bit exaggerated but its true!)
Quatch ?nothing like that ? german police is extremely polite
Complain about this comment
#149, menedemus,
I think the message is that there is never a paradise, just another set of circumstances and it's simply a question of what best suits you.
I like the South of Belgium since it's pretty calm and relaxed as there are only 10 million people in the whole country. I find the UK too crowded now and always look forward to returning home when I visit the UK. Germany was much the same when I worked there as the population is also very high.
Mind you what I find most amusing is when the French actually criticise themselves as it's beginning to happen these days since Sarko's plans to change the benefit system are not going down too well, LOL. Come on you Frenchies, lets hear it from you now.
Complain about this comment
@Menedemus
well i´m british who happens to live in germany.
Well the british onl this forum moan constantly about the Labour government and Gordon Brown permanently here.
Well for you info. the Germans actually are very similiar to the Brits apart from 1 thing-They dont protest much in public...
I think the facts should be presented instead of the illusion in the UK that the germans all have it good..Its not true anymore..
@zhanetta
I´ve never said that the police are unpolite.They are but not as polite as british policemen in fact the british are MORE polite than most of the germans..
my point was if you insult a policeman or a civil servant you will get a hefty fine-There have been cases of child abuse here where the offender has been put on probation and bascially got away with it-In the UK you will be dealt with more severly(which is correct-You can get 2 years here in principle for chanting Nazi slogans,having Nazi Propaganmda or even playing the PC game (UK version)Return to Castle Wolfenstein.
About the french. Whens the next mass protest about pensions?
Complain about this comment
ChrisPBacon @ #152
My comment was very tongue in cheek. I am actually fascinated by your and tomricc's views.
The view you provide are an insight that is very refreshing.
I thank you! ;=)
Complain about this comment
With all due respect to all the expats posting here, many seem to be playing politics when essentially what you doing is an accounting exercise.
On the face of it, the Germans are quite well off until you see the tax bill, the British are well off until you consider the cost of having a roof over your head, the French are quite well off until you look at the social benefit contribution deductions. The only fair comparison is your net income relative to the cost of living. By that measure, I would not be surprised to find that relatively speaking we are pretty even.
The one advantage that Buzet and I have is living in small countries. If I fill up the fuel tank in Austria, buy my booze and computer bits in Slovakia and so on, I can benefit in that way because of the free market.
Complain about this comment
@tomric (145)
you sound like the kind of person who wants all the benefits but does not want to pay for them himself.
Speaking of national debt, Germany and particularly France are increasingly hiding that they cannot afford their 'generous' welfare states much longer (20 years tops). French national debt is twice as high as France says it is. After all, they are not putting future welfare/state pension commitments fully on the national balance sheet.
Collapse inevitable.
Complain about this comment
@ PatienceOver
your blinded by your fanboyism of germany.stop selective thinking.we all know germany subsidises its manufacturing and makes up laws to stop takeovers.which has is not a free market and which is the only reason there the biggest exporter in the world.
germanys many factorys would of been moved to china or india or some other asian country long ago if it wasnt for german laws n protection.
The french arnt much better,they dont let any foriegn company take over a french one,but they will take all europes farming subsidies.
As for germany rising after ww2,please it was well known the west invested and put alot of manufactured in germany to prevent another world war 3 and to keep german population favouring the west instead of russian cummunists.german was te line in the sand and as such was propt up by the west .
if the uk was as protectionist as germany or america and france then we would be y far the biggest economy in the world.lets not forget uk first made and invented goods like the tv,computers,games consoles,the internet,trains,jet aircraft to name just a few.if we kept all that with protectionist and laws to prevent take overs then by far we would be bigger exporter then germany, but no we`re a free country and let them be taken over and moved to cheaper labour countries and is why we have millions of brainless people in the uk cause the supermarket jobs just aint cutting it for inovation or skills.
As a result its pretty much known the uk is a lean economy,we have to be the best or lose out to cheaper labour countries since we aint like germany n france n get take competition.the uk still has the biggest drugs company in the world,the biggest banks in the world,the biggest defence company in the world,biggest mobile phone company in the world,which is amazing since it had no hand outs and can be taken over any time.can u say the same about bmw,air france,audi,siemans.
As a result the uk is better placed then germany since we`re use to innovation, not handouts n protectionism.the uk has given and still giving alot more to the world then germany has in terms of manufactured goods. also take in the fact uk music n films which dominate hole of europe and no american studio will let uk musicans have a look in on usa radio stations for fear of the uk muscling in on lucrative american music industry. and no big uk film can be shown thro a british studio or the american studios wont let it be shown in the usa. example: harry potter a very british uk story n film but had to be made by warner an american studio or it would not get the air time in the usa.
notice how when america stops taxing foreign imports so high and stop hand outs the factorys close n move to china and this is germanys n frances fait if they ever stop controlling everything like they do the EU.
oh btw europe does not have a army the size of americas lol.its doesnt have one.the protection of europe is left to the uk and the french crying for our aircraft carries for a european army haha.
The EU will never work when its run by two selfish countries like germany n france.it has to be for the people not france n germany with grand emipire ideas.these two countries want to control europe without a war,it wont work,the french people said no,the dutch said no,the irish said no.thats a big NO to germany and france in my book.all countries write the rule book for europe not just some french minister.
The UK is great and is really pathatic to be hoping it falls down to learn it lesson.could say hope germany get invaded by russia to make them relise how lucky they was with west and stop small minded people like ....PatienceOver to wish the uk falls but im sure germany n france would be in abetter situation if we let russia have them after ww2.all americas n uk ideas are wrong anyway according to PatienceOver...
freedom forever and that includeds freetrade cough cough germany,france,america.
Complain about this comment
155 - mcdv-1975
And how does that compare with UK liabilities on PFI - which do not show on the balance sheets.
Collapse inevitable?
Complain about this comment
To threnodio (120):
"Have you tried phosphates", is that some kind of trick question about substance abuse? ;)
What you have to understand about agriculture in Finland is that the whole country is more northern than Scotland. Farming is practiced in whole country all the way to the arctic circle. Even in the most southern parts of Finland we only have one growing season.
Before the EU membership we paid much higher subsidies to our farmers. After EU membership we have had to decrease the substantially, luckily EU gave us right to pay national subsidies. The thing about importance of agriculture is that its part of national security and partly associates to aim of keeping the whole country inhabited.
The thing is that Nordic countries will never give up farming. What this means is that even if CAP would disappear, governments in here would still pay subsidies and probably even higher subsidies than they do under CAP. I would bet that the same applies to France and Germany. If UK would someday succeed on devolving CAP then it would only mean return to more highly subsidized farming.
And no, I think that there is no possibility on resolving this issue with negotiations, or to say otherwise: I don't think there is no other way to secure food supply in case of world war 3 or total collapse of world and regional trade.
Complain about this comment
To everybody about industries:
ABOUT moving manufacturing...
You are talking lot about move of manufacturing to China and other parts of Asia and how you see this as avoidable and beneficial to western societies. What you neglect to add is that moving manufacturing to China has costs: loss of intellectual property from product designs to manufacturing processes due industrial spying by employees and communist party appointed liaisons.
In example Nokia has words largest mobile phone factory in Peking and it has large research and development facilities in it. Nokia however only manufacturers low cost low tech phones in it and research laboratories mainly focus China related tasks. All high end phones are done in other factories in example Salo in Finland and the new plant in Romania.
I would also like to point out that high end manufacturing that involves high material technology are generally still done in the west. The reason why Intel is still the world largest microchip company is that it has a lead in material technology and it wont risk that for few dollars. This same applies to other fields too, metallurgy is high tech.
The other thing about moving manufacturing is that it adds to communication costs and those cost can be very high if research and development benefit highly on having manufacturing located near it. Like I said before, there is a Nokia plant in Salo located near research and development facilities in Finland.
ABOUT why things have happened...
Many hear have suggested that Germany and France too have kept their manufacturing industries in purpose. I have to disagree in here. To illustrate my point, a Nokia example again...
Nokia recently closed a plant in Bochum Germany and moved its functions to Romania. The factory was just too costly to have, but actually this was the situation always. In the beginning of 90s Nokia was about to close the Bochum plant that in then produced televisions, but as the closure costs would have bankrupted the company it was forced to re-invent what to do with the factory.
Due to labor laws, continental companies have higher costs on changing their operations. What this causes is for them to be slow in re-organizing or moving their operations as change has cost barrier thus companies have to concentrate more to middle and long term consequences. Now in UK and USA companies don't have these costs thus their focus is more in short term as they can change their operations more rapidly.
In my opinion in US and UK due to popularity of short term look, management fads go and take their toll more quickly than in continental Europe or Japan. In example outsourcing boom came very quickly, but after a while the same consultation houses that recommended outsourcing operations are now recommending to pull them back home siting risen costs.
Actually what I think has happened is that outcomes of outsourcing and moving also research and development activities into developing countries were highly overrated. Just to note that Intel's difficulties in last two to three years were largely caused by their new Indian research and development center failing to deliver wanted results.
That's my two euro cents on these issues.
Complain about this comment
To WebAliceinwonderland (119):
But Alice, calling somebody because they are few minutes late is not out of anger but for caring :) In example the other person might be a cross the street or maybe moved to somewhere near by to warm up, that's why you call, check and if needed re-organize. And of course if a girl is very late, ten minutes or more, by calling her or her calling me I can do something else, in example go to a cafe or look new mobile phones. Punctuality and efficiency, virtues both! :)
Complain about this comment
#158 - Jukka_Rohila
I am sorry Jukka - obviously the English sense of humour isn't working. It was a silly joking about the small number of people per square kilometer, that's all.
What about phase 2 of British serfdom? Have we dealt with Newscorp?
Complain about this comment
159. Jukka_Rohila
you are right, many german companies
do not produce high end products in such countries as China or India - just one or two models oriented to the local market.
R&D and HE production always stays at home
Complain about this comment
To threnodio (161):
Ah, or either we continentals have no sense of humor :)
Phase 2 of British serfdom could and should come, but then again I wonder is it any useful.
The problem is that if you don't accept that Newscorp has any influence on politics of UK then the subjects effectively stops there. From my point of view, I think my hypothesis is quite reasonable. What we have is 1) mechanism of control, 2) results of that control (from societal and EU policies to Iraq war) to 3) timeline of Newscorp in UK (enlargement of influence coincides in turn of British attitudes of EU) and 4) Rupert Murdoch and Newscorp are advantaging their neo-conservative and anarcho-capitalist views (i.e. New Zealand is not a happy copy of Nordic welfare states anymore).
If you are not going to accept Newscorp then the only area on where discussion could be made and would be beneficial would be to 1) on how special relationship to US actually benefits UK versus being allied more closely with the continent, and 2) what UK actually gained from Iraq war, why it has chosen its current economic and societal policies (i.e. intergenerational social mobility is more weaker than in US which has much more weaker mobility than western Europe). If you remove the explanation of UK having Finlandization then how are going to explain these other issues? UK's special relationship, serfdom, to USA just explains things more neatly.
Complain about this comment
@mark77mark
Sry what a load of rubbish.
Only 1 firm is under protection laws and that is Volkswagen..
All other german companies are free to trade and be bought on the stock exchange as well as the UK.
I will never dispute that the UK has great inventors-BUT the japanese and the germans have taken good ideas and been able to produce quality products at a good price.
Plus in the UK there is far too little good apprenticeships(thats why i joined the army..) and highly skilled workers are quite rare in the UK(in the 90s far too few skilled labour in electronics for example)
The UK has had a very difficult climate for investment in manufacturing-for example the tax system in the 70s-Richest were taxed with 83%-who would invest in the UK? NO-ONE of course.
Plus british industry was very ineffecient at this time...
German workers earn more but they also produce more(productivity is extremly high) and german products have a very good reputation too.
In Bielefeld we have the Miele factory just down the road from me.
I got given a hoover from Miele as a weeding present as i got married 17 years ago.You know its still going strong even today...
Would a hoover from the UK last that long?
About the EU a lot of germans are for European intregation BUT are against the euro,against meddling from Brussels-Only the politicians want it and there no other parties who are AGAINST the EU...
A lot of smaller german firms are coming back-The savings they made were offset because german workers had to correct the mistakes of the products in germany which made the product MORE expensive than being produced here.
Yes i agree that the german economy will suffer more but only because of false tax policies and sinking wages...
Complain about this comment
#150. At 4:44pm on 17 Nov 2008, zhanetta wrote:
"german police are extremely polite"
The wife of a person I met at work a few years was stamped on by the 'polite' German police. He showed me the doctor's report of the boot shaped bruise on her chest. The police had stopped her and her children in the street outside a restaurant and then taken them all to their home to produce their identity documents.
However this 50 year old woman was prosecuted for assaulting the 'polite' German policeman., presumably for lying on the ground with his boot on her chest. She sued the police but the judge would not hear her medical evidence and even though the police changed their story twice the court found in their favour.
Oh, did I add that she is a black German citizen of African origin.
No police force anywhere is filled with angels, no matter how 'polite' they may all seem.
It is rather like saying that the CRS in Paris in 1968 was filled with gentle peace loving men. (Personal experience!)
The state will always appoint a certain number of thugs, in the armed forces and the police. Many are attracted to the job because they are bullies. Or they like driving too fast!
The police do have to put up with a lot. I recall standing by a person up against a police line in Grosvenor Square outside the USA embassy during a riot. This person was saying that the parents of the policeman opposite him were not married and making other objectionable remarks. The policeman did hear as he tensed noticeably and eventually lashed out after several more minutes of insults, (just after I had moved away). I know I would have done so in similar circumstances.
Complain about this comment
@mark77mark
I forgot yes the british do great music-But in the UK you get really ripped off buying it as well as computer games too.( And almost all electronic/computer goods too)
Example as the Nintndo 64 console came out in 1997 it was goning for 399 DM(130 Pounds at the time)-In the UK it went back to visit my parents and Argos was charging 250 POUNDS!
Why do a lot of brits go to france to the Hypermarches on vouchers from the Sun charging 1 quid for the ferry?
Plz dont get me wrong i m a brit and proud of it but also please look at the facts and not fiction.
Britain was nearly broke in the 70s and had to call in the IMF..
Thats why the economy is not where it should be today...
Only because of Thatcher(right or wrong) who took steps to revive the economy britain would a very poor country today..
Blair basicially tried to correct the inequalities caused by the Iron Ladys policies...
But britain has changed a lot in the last 20 years and in my opinion a lot for the good...
Complain about this comment
O what an excellent complaining corner this thread was. pity it's 2 am and I have to walk the dog.
Complain about this comment
#132ff ChrisPBacon
Now here is a man who is bitter, very bitter. Or is it envy? Are you really missing the UK that much, the unaffordable low-quality cramped housing, poor healthcare and public services, the unwavering commitment of the government to make the rich even richer, attract multi-billionaires from all over the world to London while giving a hoot about the local peasants? Well, you know, if you are that desperate, it's just a 1hr flight from Frankfurt to London, no return.
Fact is that even the unemployed and the pensioners are much better off in Germany than many people on low wages who hold 2-3 jobs in the UK. When I try to explain what 'fuel poverty' is to my European friends, they just shake their heads in disbelief. British healthcare is famous throughout Europe indeed - after all they send orthopaedic patients to Poland for 'advanced treatments'... do you need more ineffective socialism than that? Only the Chinese army and the Indian railways do better.
Granted, the rich seem to be becoming richer everywhere (until the financial bubble burst, that is). The are in the US and UK (very fast), in Europe, China, India (pretty fast), even in Cuba (increasingly faster) and probably even in North Korea although I don't really anything about that.
On the other hand, tax evasion in offshore accounts is probably only legal in the UK and Luxembourg. Even the US has a stricter fiscal regime than the UK with its North Sea and Caribbean tax havens.
Consumer protection is not exactly high on the agenda in the UK either since it gets in the way of greedy profiteering rip-off merchants.
In the UK, the big catch-up with European living standards (just look at how many microwave ovens, dishwashers, plasma TVs, cars the average household has had compared to the rest of Europe) which started in the 80s is definitely over now. Unlike the UK economy which was entirely based on financial services, debt-fuelled house price inflation and consumer spending, most European countries (not just Germany and France!) still have real industries which make real things and will buffer the impact of the financial turmoil. Good products and good work will always have a price, unlike bank managers on huge bonuses (7 billion in London alone) who turned out to be too stupid to make their numbers add up. With the Scottish oil running out fast too, I don't know where your optimism is coming from.
#156 (mark77mark)
Gosh, what a twisted little story you've come up with. I haven't found anything worth replying to you in your thread, since you've pretty much made it all up. But for those who are interested what effective rather than nominal taxation is like across Europe, here are some links which I found useful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe
http://tinyurl.com/6czunz
Complain about this comment
#164, ChrisPBacon,
You hit the nail on the head when you said "A lot of smaller german firms are coming back-The savings they made were offset because german workers had to correct the mistakes of the products in germany which made the product MORE expensive than being produced here."
It's not just in Germany though, I saw this effect in the UK in 1988 when I worked in Sheffield for a few months. The old destroyed factories where being replaced by small industrial units. This is now everywhere, UK, France, Belgium, Germany etc as the days of the large monolithic factory went years ago and small units are far more adaptable and futuristic. As for the quality factor I have seen that in IT as well, we had to spend a fortune correcting bad programming in a system that was written in India for a major IT software supplier I worked for a few years years ago. If it had been written here in the EU or in the US it would have been far more reliable, not perfect but certainly far better written and not needing an instant recall and rewrite.
#163, Jukka_Rohila,
You seemingly suffer the worse form of delusional mentality in that you see conspiracy and plot everywhere whilst having opinions that only a closed mind could put forward, yet sometimes your words are sensible and thought out. I really can't see why you consider Newscorp or Murdoch to be so much in control, they, if anything, are merely the monkeys, it's the organ grinder that you should be looking for and you've missed the obvious candidates i.e. the EU elite you like so much who are well capable of paying for media control.
Complain about this comment
#168, kuhmassy,
Yet another who hasn't yet realised that there is no paradise and that there are no problems in the UK that don't also exist in other countries whether slightly less or slightly more. The average member of the EU political elite is in fact even more corrupt that the UK's present incumbents Gordon McClown and Captain Darling.
When it comes to offshore accounts well you seem to have not realised that there is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Tax havens for tax avoidance are in fact legal throughout just as tax avoidance is legal within a country. It's Tax evasion that's illegal and it's like that everywhere.
Complain about this comment
so get your sleeping pills ready i'm going to tell you a real scary story for the night.
about how social systems work, and those mysterious "allowances", and "legal system", and FOC medical service - all combined in one vivid example from Russia.
a frind of my mum, an elderly energetic lady, what we call here "a young pensioner", stood on a bus stop when a bus drove up into the bus stop. younger people managed to jump off and she didn't. next thing she found herself in the hospital with one leg cut off. the other one squashed but seemingly recoverable. then her daughter ran around other hospitals buying blood for the operation. it is FOC only it is not there. then she paid for general anaesthesia, because the one that is FOC the doc said all die from. then they treated her very well. (we all collected money for them to pay the nurses so that they would come if called. their salaries are so low that normally they don't feel obliged to come up to a dying patient). of medications was spotted iodine, bandages and pain killer tablets (6 roubles a pack in any pharmacy). the survived leg strangely didn't want to go. so they went into extraordinary expenses and did an x-ray. stared silly understood nil. so her daughter took her by taxi out to a paid clinic and paid there for a tomography and then returned her mum back to the state FOC service.
in 2 months time she was visited in the hospital by a policeman who lazily enquired what has happened. oh really a state route city bus? does she know the driver's name? has agreed on the bus stop with someone to be an evidence? recommended us to place ads in newspapers find some evidence.
then she was sent home where she is past 2 years, in bed. once a week comes social worker. (paid 500 roubles a month, 20 dollars, for all services to an immobile patient). the social worker doesn't cook, doesn't clean and doesn't wash. she brings 2 kilos of food on order and leaves it on the table, at that lady's hand reaching distance. more than 2 kilos a week they are not allowed to carry, too heavy. gets paid for the purchases and disappears.
there was eventually a court. the lady was represented by an FOC state lawyer. who never visited her once before the trial, only called twice on the phone. herself she can't get out of bed, so she was not in the court room.
on the day of the trial the lawyer said he declines to have the case. changed his mind. why not? it is allowed. so she got another lawyer, who we all wanted to see very much, but he declined all suggestions to meet. there was a trial, bus driver laughed in our face in the court room, was charged 50 thousand roubles. 2 + a bit thousand dollars for making a person disabled forever. next 6 months we were trying to find someone in that bus company to present them with the court decision. only they ran away from us and refused to sign the paper they are notified they are to pay. because it is the bus company that was ruled to pay.
the daughter of that lady had a very hard life. she worked, and took care of two disabled parents. because her father got a stroke in all that, and also lay down. then he died, and they stayed alone, daughter and that her mother in bed. looking after medications, solutions what to do, and turning over her mum in bed and all. then that young one got cancer. possibly I'd say, she had a very stressful life.
her cancer doctors spotted on the x-ray half a year before they told her. they told her only when she was in horrible pain, because it spread. there was a scandal but that's it. she is not getting any cancer medications, due to treat her FOC, because they are "currently not available" (last year).
herself, for money, she can't buy. because pharmacies here sell all over the counter but cancer treatment medications. and cancer level pain killers as well.
that daughter is now in the hospital. simply because there they have pain killers, and living at home she cannot get to them.
that elderly lady is alone at home, in excellent moods.
all acquaintance are on turns, visiting her. last 2 years my mum twice a week puts soup into a glass jar and all and goes there.
opening the door is a problem. the key is under the foot carpet at the door.
because there is nobody to stand up and open the door, when the bell rings.
this is all.
Complain about this comment
and no, there is no way she can be placed into a care-of-the-elderly who can't care of themselves, or wounded or anything.
there are such places for sure, state-run, cueues for years; all who stay alone and can't move and have no children are put there. what helps to move the cueue is the turnover is high. average life span in these insitutions 10 days to 2 weeks. because they are there on state expense, and what for the state needs them? sure they give up their pensions to the institution.
but what is a Russian pension? standard for all (excepting state workers and municipial workers, government and "power" ministries) - for all the rest - 130 dollars a month. nevermind your salary the previous 40 years. 130. my mum's. that lady friend of hers in bed. nothing on top, no silly "allowances".
so it doesn't pay a day of care in a state-run insititution for the elderly.
well, one day it pays. 9 days FOC. then they die. nobody comes, to turn people over, wash, forget ab medical treatment. some of course manage to survive longer, stubborn ones, but if they are healthy. until the first disease.
a privately-run such a home for the disabled or elderly - there is not one from Moscow to Vladivostok. not for 2 people. none. never.
no businesses willing to do it.
for no money.
it is very unprofitable business, all think.
it's abroad 5-10% profit is allright.
Russian businesses don't start the business, unless you see 50-70%.
a./ greedy. all changes quick. no future. grab when you can.
b./ you need to plan for the bribes.
I had an acquantance, who run a small cafe in Moscow. He showed me 120 separate papers, that he collected, to get a permission to run food business.
Remember two - "radiation control level certificate in the ground under the future cafe spot" and "chemical composition of the soil under the future cafe-to-be-built".
In the USSR children wanted all "to work as a cosmonaut". School surveys.
In perestroyka - "bandits", "to work as a prostitute".
At Yeltsin - "to be a businessman", "to be an oligarch".
Now - "I want to be a government worker."
Complain about this comment
One can live in Russia. And excellently well. While you are young and healthy. And take care of yourself. State will not interfere. In this condition we have more freedoms than you do.
Only don't hope for anything from the state either, we are trained so. State - separately, people - separately.
Figure out yourself an own "pension", own health care, own someone to take care of you when you can't.
Private pension funds - non-existant/and or unreliable here. Foreign ones are not let into the market. Local ones steadily run away with you money. No sense.
Same with insurance. I don't have any insurance. Neither health nor house. Don't know anyone who has. Same thing - even by future WTO deal, foreign insurance companies won't be let into the market. And our own have a strong tendency to vapour out with your money. Same as to throw money out of the window straight on the spot.
So you are here on your own, entirely.
Got ill? Go to the paid clinic and pay.
No money - go to the state one and live with the consequances. Usually until the age of 58, I'd say. Until the first major disease, which is not a flu, smth for which you have no money to manage it.
No silly, as I read, asthma inhalers marked "blue" and "brown". Go buy your own in any pharmacy, and remember yourself what you bought and why. Your own asthma, own business.
When I had pneumonia, I did x-rays myself.
Nobody "sent me" to do them. My own idea - would be not bad to go pay and carry an x-ray home. Then I bought antibiotics myself, at a pharmacy, composed a list, thought which might help, which I think I had allergy to before, etc.
It's your own life, if you want to keep it - do something.
Though with a cold, or after a work leave permit, sick list - we go to the state clinics.
They work like sick lists' issue factories, mostly.
So, remind me - who of us lives in the capitalism, who in the socialism.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (169):
EU elite, media control? Where? How?
I'm sorry, but its not delusional to make a note about British policies, about its 'special relationship' with the US and how that relationship is played on.
From my point of view its just astonishing that the very same people in here who rant here about EU dictatorship and the loss of sovereignty to EU are not concerned at all on having been influenced by foreign source by large scale media manipulation.
Like I said to tthrenodio, I you are not going to accept the explanation of News corp lead mass media influence, then how will you explain UK-US special relationship and how on earth are you going to explain all those decisions and policies that have been and which have not been beneficial to UK? So how is it? What are the other explanations?
Complain about this comment
Czech town now doing riots over roma why dont they do something more useful and protest against the EU and do us all a favor
Complain about this comment
#174, Jukka_Rohila,
You mention "From my point of view its just astonishing that the very same people in here who rant here about EU dictatorship and the loss of sovereignty to EU are not concerned at all on having been influenced by foreign source by large scale media manipulation."
Can you not consider that it is you who are the victim of such large scale indoctrination and that this is why you mind is closed to what is happening in the EU. Personally although I read the 'news' I have always treated it with a pinch of salt as it has always been sanitised, personal experiences and the experiences of others tend to be more factual, which is why people like me who are coming up against the inadequacies of the EU and it's current direction are doing that from what we actually find.
In the situation of media control, of course the politicians are hand in hand with the media moguls, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours is as old as the hills. Why do you think there are so many spin doctors throughout the EU, their job is to lead the media and maybe even pay for good publicity. The media moguls are a business and profit is their motive, they may have their favourites and Murdoch certainly has his, but as I said look to the organ grinder rather than the moneys as the media is the monkey here. Look at our wonderful BBC for instance, the top echelons were appointed by Blair I seem to recall so it's not rocket science to know where to read between the lines of any story that has a political angle.
As for the relationship between the UK and USA, so what, how about the relationship between France and Germany, or France and their old African colonies, or in fact any country with another of similar roots. What is it that makes you hate the UK-USA link and ignore the FR-DE link, oh I forgot you have been indoctrinated by state controlled media that the FR-DE link is good for everyone in the world.
Complain about this comment
Re post 158, Jukka, if the CAP is reduced substantially or done way with completely (big if I appreciate but I do live in hope) I am not sure the Finnish or any one else for that matter would be allowed to keep paying subtstantial subsidies.
My understanding is that such subsidies would distort freee trade between E.U countries and be considered unfair competition.
Could be wrong but would have thought the ECJ would rule that way.
Still never mind if it does happen you won't mind making sacrifices for the good of the E.U project. Or if you felt that strongly that you could not follow the rules, rather than being negative I suppose you could always leave the E.U. as you keep suggesting others do if they do not agree with the curent direction of the E.U. :)
Complain about this comment
#174, Jukka_Rohila,
I forgot one other source of indoctrination, the education system, if you control the teachers and what they teach then you have an incredible influence throughout the informative years of a persons development. Why do you think that in the UK the private schools are so hated, they simple have teachers that teach according to the syllabus. There is so much political correctness in the state system these days and it's been like that since the 60's. At the moment my grandchildren in the UK are being indoctrinated over a number of politically correct things, including healthy eating, which is an absolute farce from what little most teachers actually know about the subject. Your comments about the Finnish education system lead to to wonder if you also have the same problem whereby in your case issues like the EU have only one spin, certainly I saw evidence of that in Belgium when my kids were at school.
Complain about this comment
To jordanbasset (177):
Doing CAP away would need substantial changes to treaties underlying the EU and thus need consensus of all EU countries, including Finland. I really don't see any possibility on this changing as most of the EU countries are for subsidies and for saving and having their own agricultural sectors.
Now would it be possible to away with subsidies? Yes of course, but that would essentially mean that food security would have to be dealt with other ways. Now there is food reserved for our 5 million citizens to survive a one years and seeds for one harvest. If there would be no CAP or national subsidies then national reserves would have to be increased from one year to several years, seeds to several harvests to be reserved, compensations to be paid for ex-farmers to keep their fields available and their production infrastructure in order.
I'm sorry, but the most precious resource of a state is its people, and the reason for states existence is securing, protecting and developing its people. Markets are not the end, markets serve the people and when the interests of people go before markets, markets have to bend. For a state to prepare for a end of a world situation, be it world war or a natural disaster is being vigilant. If you look what farming subsidies cost and how much would the potential costs be of few million people starving to death be, its easy decision to pay subsidies.
I don't know how in UK things work, but in here its out of question to put lower classes to starve and die for higher classes to prevail, in here that is out of questions as it should be in all civilized countries.
Complain about this comment
Re post 179, you live in a strange and catacltysmic world where failure to pay substantial subsidies to farmers to carry on working in an innefficient way will lead to millions of people starving to death.
Many countries outside of the E.U do not pay subsidies and their populations do not starve to death in their millions.
What the CAP does is create a barrier to developing countries to compete equally with the E.U., and that does cause real hard ship in those countries and real starvation.
If subsidies were reduced or got rid of it would mean farmers would have to look at better ways of working. It may mean some farms being amalgamated and other farmers having to find alternative employment.
How can you say to people across europe who are losing their jobs in mamnufacturing that we cannot provide subsidies for you but we can provide subsidies to farmers (some of which are doing very well any way)
In many ways this summaries one of the differences between myself and you. I believe we should take a world view in terms of helping those in need. You are much more limited in terms of looking at everything through a E.U. prism. You appear to want to see the E.U to become a major world power because of your fear/rivalry with the rest of the world. I and others embrace the rest of the world and want to see good relations with it.
Complain about this comment
The oil eaters may have to go on a starvation diet. Who are they? The people who depend on the sale of crude oil to buy food. Yesterday, for the first time in a very long time, I saw 87 octane gas (regular) at under $2 a barrel. I saw premium (93 octane) for only about 20 cents more. Those who counted their black liquid chickens before they were hatched may be in for a bit of a shock. PBS's nightly news analysis of the world economy has Britain projecting serious recession for all of 2009 with rising unemployment and not much imporvement in 2010. Japan like Germany is now technically in recession (it has hardly had a robust economy since the 80s before the real estate and stock market bubbles burst.) Russia is said to be looking forward to a serious recession, possibly even a depression including collapse of its currency. This has resulted in people buying cars now while they can still get something for their money although car sales are reportedly down. Looks like Russia's economy is "ka-Putin-sky." Well Nanotchka, what do you have to say about it? Are these reports right? But don't fret. The higher unemployment goes, the cheaper those servants for your Dascha will be. Who knows, maybe you can get some help pouring that cement floor in your garage.
Complain about this comment
#175 - jaws1912
I am really getting very worried about you. One of the last remaining prejudices which plagues central Europe erupts into violence for no good reason and you see it as reason for bashing the EU. Wasn't it you who tried to blame the Hatfied rail crash and the closure of Post Offfices on the EU as well? When it comes to clutching at straws, this is about as low as you can get.
Jukka -
You seem to think that I am being deliberately obstructive about all of this. I am not. I have lived in the UK mostly for the best part of 55 years. I know the place and I know the people. I simply do not recognise the picture you paint of a people controlled and manipulated by Newscorp. It simply isn't true and I will not argue on the basis of a fallacy.
By the way, of Murdoch's two main titles, The Times tends to be pro-EU so even that does not fit your argument. I can think of some areas where you could make quite a strong case but the media is not one of them.
Complain about this comment
#179 - Jukka_Rohila
Of course you are right. If I was Finnish and I could get the British taxpayer to pay for my food security, I would be a very happy man. If I was French and could get my farm subsidised by the British tax payer, I would be more than happy. The CAP is playing Robin Hood, robbing the rich to pay the poor only, in this case, the poverty is not financial. It lies in the ability to farm efficiently.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (176):
Lets start from easy questions?
Am I indoctrinated? Of course, we all are products of our societies, of common values, of historical tradition and of our education systems etc.. Does indoctrination mean that one can't have rational thinking or have fairly objective view, of course it doesn't.
Lets beginning with the FR-DE relationship and how does that compare to UK-US relationship. I can easily find economic and security reasons why FR and DE have to have very close co-operation. I can also very easily find economic and security reason why other EU countries must work and advantage integration. Now what are reason for UK-US relationship? May I ask what did UK get from fighting in Iraq war? What does UK get from being in the same alliance with the US on pressuring Iran? The benefits to USA are of course very easy to note: the continuation of US dollar's monopoly position as oil trading currency. What is UK getting from all this? Can somebody explain that?
The thing is that the existence and need for EU and for more integrated and closer union can be explained from economical reasons. On the other hand those who want only free trade, I'm sorry, but you don't have valid economical reasons for it. So lets turn this around, you have grand children, you are a product of ancient times, don't you ever consider that you are indoctrinated, that you don't view things as they are?
Now if we go to media control, I'm sorry, but again, the position of News Corp in UK is unique compared to any other European country. And no, EU elites are not in control of European media, what you fail to see is that in other countries where media is not so concentrated into few hands there are more conflicting interests and thus more voiced opinions. In UK what you have is rather unique, you have a whole corporation engaged to information war against the EU, its also engaged to other activities, just try to remember which media sources in UK and all over world where most vocal advocates of Iraq war... News Corp maybe?
To Buzet23 (178):
Education systems always skew on direction of the state. The main job of school system is to raise up good citizens, citizens that have knowledge and know-how to be able to work in the society and knowledge on the state works and how they can advantage their interests. The balance to this comes naturally, if the states tries to indoctrinate too much without ability for critical thinking it will foster new generations that are ill suited for being productive citizens. The major thing in here is that all, from poor to rich, go the same schooling systems and get the same education. Those people who are making decisions regarding education system and curriculum's are also witnessing their results in their children or with children's children.
Complain about this comment
Jukka_Rohila @174 asks:
"I [sic] you are not going to accept the explanation of News corp lead mass media influence, then how will you explain UK-US special relationship and how on earth are you going to explain all those decisions and policies that have been and which have not been beneficial to UK? So how is it? What are the other explanations?"
Although there are substantial differences of interest (and thus policy) between the UK and the US, overall, we share a common language, and a common cultural and ancestral and historic heritage (or background). This is reflected also in our respective national 'psyches'.
This commonality is stronger than any differences we may have.
Which is why most Britons (and Irish, actually) have more in common with (and a greater affinity for) Americans than we have with our continental neighbours - the French, the Germans, the Greeks, - or even the Finns!
Our 'manipulating, influencial' Murdoch media does not create or sustain this commonality - but reflects it.
Complain about this comment
#184, Jukka_Rohila,
It's painfully clear your views are so fixed that you can't see the reason for Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran let alone the current EU direction. Whilst everybody was fed a lie about Iraq the reason is just not always oil, it's also about being a responsible country and trying to prevent or limit problems before they arrive. The EU (and UK) admission of so many asylum seekers and refugees is a case in point, if those conflicts had been prevented or diffused early there would have been no need for those people to come here, and a lot of the problems with integration, religion that we're seeing now could maybe have been avoided. In your belief you would be content to simply sit back, accept all until you are under attack, and then hope somebody helps you. The UK has always been more proactive than reactive and whilst I don't always agree with us getting involved I can understand the reasoning, as once the enemy is at the gate it's too late!
Regarding media you say "In UK what you have is rather unique, you have a whole corporation engaged to information war against the EU", please tell what the media in the EU are doing, I see Belgian and French plus reports from many other countries, it is rare that there is ever anything against the EU. The countries get mildly criticised but the real lies never get published except outside the country, therefore to read about Belgium we look at the French or Dutch news sources. Newscorp? mere beginners my friend.
As for the children's education it is been very noticeable that most Labour politicians are so convinced by the state system their cohorts have created that they invariably send their children to private schools or state schools that are 'special'. it's the masses that have to put up with the doctrine of left wing educational think tanks who think competition is wrong, even in sport some years back.
Complain about this comment
Jukka, re newscorp, I believe the only papers it owns in the U.K. are the Sun, News of the World (a Sunday only paper) and the Times.
I can only speak for the Times in any detail as I do not read the ohers. While the editorials are some times biased towards the rght, on the whole the actual reports with in it give a reasonably accurate picture of what is going on in the world.
As I said I cannot talk for the Sun or the news of the world, but from the front pages they appear mosre interested in the love life of soap actors, big brither and scantily clad women than any hard news.
Re t.v. news most in the U.K. watch either BBC, ITV or ChanneL 4 news. None of these can be said to be biased, it has been argued by others that the BBC has a liberal pro E.U. bias.
What I am trying to say is the view that newscorp is some Orwellian type newspeak monster that effects the views of large numbers of people in the U.K. does not bear up to scrutiny.
Complain about this comment
To jordanbasset (180) to threnodio (183)
Food security, that is the key issue in here. After WW2 we haven't seen any major interruption to world trade to date, that doesn't however mean that it couldn't not happen: major war, natural disaster, outbreak of disease etc.. In a case of an interruption to world trade, those countries that don't have self-sufficient food production or reserves will be hit with mass starvation.
Now lets look on farming subsidies. In example in Finland in 2007 direct farming subsidies where 1,9 billion euros from which 60% were national subsidies, paid directly by the Finnish government, and 40% from the EU, make note that Finland is a net contributor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu_budget ). Now is 1,9 billion euros too big sum? In 2007 the budget of Finnish government in total was 40,5 billion euros, so having food security costs 4% per year. I'm sorry, but that sounds like a very cheap insurance in case of major disturbance in world trade.
Now lets look on EU budget, the link that I provided earlier. Remember these are figures by Open Europe and as in earlier conversations I have said, they have some faults in them. Even so, look at the net contributions of Germany (-1045), UK (-937), France (-805), Italy (-778) and Finland (-701), what you can see is that they are in the same ball park. The reason why countries listed first pay more to EU even thought Finland has higher GDP (nominal) per capita is that our GNI is lower (due to country industrializing just after 50s, thus having less wealth accumulating interests and dividends from investments in other countries). The main point here is that actually subsidies in developed EU countries are not paid other developed EU countries, but that they all contribute money to EU largely in equal amounts.
Now if we look at CAP and its effects on world trade and to developing countries then I disagree with you. The problems of undeveloped countries are due to their unstable governments and irrational policies. The main of undeveloped countries shouldn't be specializing on agriculture, but establish stable environments where industries could set them up. China has gone the root of industrialization besides CAP, India has starting the root, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brazil etc.. are all advantaging in these fronts. In these days for country to develop and industrialize its not needed to have domestic capital when foreign capital is available.
If we go back to industries, manufacturing and research and development, they are already being subsidized. Banks and financial sectors in many European countries have had support packages. Car manufacturers are arguing for a 40 billion euro package and construction companies are too demanding support. But of course, these are special cases and not permanent subsidies. However European industries get indirect subsidies throe government managed and funded research just like in other countries including USA and Japan: just an example, it wasn't a straight accident that Nokia came worlds biggest mobile phone manufacturer, besides making right moves, it was assisted by research done in Finnish universities, its workforce cost less because of state educating more engineers to lower average pays. So yes, besides farming subsidies, governments are subsidizing private industries, some more directly, some more indirectly.
The thing is that EU must integrate more and get into a position where it can protect itself from USA but also from rising super powers of China and India. If you want to have more prospering Europe then you have to level playing field for companies and citizens and that can only happen throe more closer union.
PS. About Murdoch, I think we have to just disagree. Still, even if Murdoch is removed from the picture, still there is much to explain about British policies.
Complain about this comment
To MaxSceptic (185):
What you say about your culture forming the bond, that I have to confess, I just don't understand, and have hard time on accepting.
From my view as Britain's geographical position is in Europe, is being next to continental Europe, then the success, prosperity and stability of Europe directly affects Britain. EU has whole advantaged European position and things like euro have been successes. From my point of view the policies of UK are just economically detrimental, from being outside euro to wishes on de-evolution of EU to mere 'free' trade.
I'm sorry, but in my book economic prosperity and security in medium and long term just go over any cultural connection: money counts.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (186):
Reason for activities and policies in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran... okey...
Invasion and occupation of Afghanistan happened because two sky scrapers went down in New York and a plaint hit Pentagon because Osama Bin Laden, ex-ally of USA, was pissed on USA having military bases in Gulf states and assisting and keeping the Al-Saud family in power. The question we should be asking is was the Afghanistan war an over-reaction? Was it really necessary and actually where they caused by USA having wrong foreign policies?
Now if we go to recent war in Iraq. Was it really because Saddam Hussein was so bad guy that he had to be thrown out, because if it was then why was he an ally of USA before the Persian Gulf war? Or maybe the whole Iraq war was because Saddam decided to start trading oil with euros instead of US dollars? Accidentally the newly liberated Iraq with its new government immediately decided to stop trading oil with euros and return back to using US dollars. The Iraq war was an warning to all countries to stay trading oil only with US dollars or else they would have to be liberated.
Now the recent situation in Iran. That actually is largely the fault of British imperialism. Deposing a democratic government of Iran in 50s, instituting Shah to rule the country, isolating the country after Mullahs dared to nationalize oil production and keep oil profits in their own pockets. In recent times the increased pressure against Iran, again, has been caused by Iran threatening to start trading oil in euros and in yens.
I'm sorry, but Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran are all works of failed imperialistic policies. The only way to have peace, to increase development in the middle east and elsewhere is to stop imperialistic policies, to pull back military bases, to pull back support for dictatorships, to support having normal diplomatic and trade relationships with these countries and not treating them like pariah states.
Complain about this comment
Jukka -
"In UK what you have is rather unique, you have a whole corporation engaged to information war against the EU, its also engaged to other activities, just try to remember which media sources in UK and all over world where most vocal advocates of Iraq war... News Corp maybe?"
This is quite simply not true.
There was a curious and unhealthy relationship between Tony Blair and Murdoch, promoted by then press secretary Cameron, under which Blair was convinced that Murdoch's support could win him the general elections of '97 and 2004 (was it?). There was also an unusual and somewhat perverse closeness between Bush and Blair which you can argue was in part responsible for Iraq. Actually, Iraq is exceptionally unpopular in Britain. Some 68% of those surveyed also want to see us out of Afghanistan even though it is an entirely different campaign. The Times has been quite critical on Iraq, especially recently, is certainly not eurosceptic and does not trumpet the values of the right especially forcefully. If you look back over the long term both before and after the Murdoch take over, the Time's traditional position has been to be critical of the government of the day regardless of which party was in office.
You raise the question of Iran. You would do well to remember that, if the recent news regarding it's technology are accurate, Europe is within range of Iranian technology. You should also note that it has been a British/German initiative to try the negotiated settlement route. The State Department, after early objections, backed away and let us get on with it. A great deal of what has been coming out of the States in the last six months is nothing more than electoral rhetoric.
The question you should be asking is whether the Iranian threat is credible, whether the missile shield proposed for Poland and the Czech Republic is a sensible response or an ill concealed and ill conceived concept to upset the Russians and whether Klaus, who is opposed to it, will use the Czech presidency to promote something different.
All this talk about Britain being in the American's pocket is not only exaggerated but it is also a red herring distracting attention from serious questions. I would add one further comment. The British and Americans between them provide a huge slice of the manpower and technology as well as the budget for NATO. Other European allies have been hesitant about commitment to NATO projects and, by default, left the US and Britain to carry most of the burden. It would be ridiculous to suggest that this should not be taken seriously both sides of the Atlantic and if some Europeans find the Anglo-American relationship too close for comfort, perhaps they should be pulling their weight in the defence of NATO and European interests.
Complain about this comment
Jukka -
"money counts".
Who's money? It really is very easy to favour a policy when you are not paying for it. It is very difficult to promote this policy in a country which is a significant contributor. You only have to read some of the eurosceptics posts here to realise what you are up against. You say you are in favour of democracy. OK then, tell me how we are supposed to "sell" the CAP to a people who think they are being robbed.
Complain about this comment
Jukka!
You don't need to read the British press to be anti-"EU". I hardly read the Sun. I did once buy it and bought another paper so that I could hide the Sun in it.
The anti-"EU" article I read in the Sun was very intelligent. It didn't use long words to try to sound intelligent. The matter is very simple and using long words would not be intelligent. We just don't need the "EU". "EU"-lovers should stop trying to use the excuse that the British or Irish are victims of their own stupidity.
Presumably because they are so stupid, they should not be allowed to vote.
On the whole "EU"-lovers are undemocratic and anti-democratic. They can never build a democratic united Europe.
Complain about this comment
Jukka!
Try to get the UK out of the "EU" before young Finns in an "EU"-army or in "European Gendarmes" are dying on the streets of England as they try to put down a violent anti-"EU" uprising.
I don't want that. That is not a threat. That is a concern based on the hatred people here express for your "EU".
Complain about this comment
To threnodio (192):
Like I said in my post (188) all developed countries pay for the CAP. The thing is that if you don't pay CAP and have food security then in a crisis situation people will pay by their life's on not having food security. If you don't want to to put your life or your children's life on the line, you pay for the CAP, you pay for the food security. Its the same as having a army, on daily basis you don't need it, but if the trouble comes, its a life safer.
To threnodio (191):
I already answered in most parts to your posts, but once again, I want to stress that there is huge difference on having defensive forces versus having capability on projecting force in faraway places to wage offensive war.
Further on other European countries are pulling their weight on having credible defense. France has invested to military technology as has Germany. The difference again is that France, Germany and other EU countries are more prepared for conventional war than to projecting force outside Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
France spends more on military than UK and other old EU countries pay sizable sums too. Besides, wasn't NATO supposed to be an defensive not offensive organization?
Also about Iran... Iran is trying to arm itself because it felts itself being threatened not only by US and UK forces in the area, but it also is in cold war between Saudi-Arabia which has armed itself very actively. If Iran indeed is trying to get nuclear bomb, which is very much doubted, then the very reasons why they are doing it might be something to do with US and UK being there. You won't solve middle east problems by liberating countries, you solve them by pulling out, and forming peaceful relationships with them.
To SuffolkBoy2 (194):
Oh please, even if European Union would be federation, the internal security of UK would be the responsibility of UK itself, same goes to UK being part of the federation itself. Being in a federation doesn't mean that a nation looses control of its destination, what it means is that it has decided for the time being to work with other nations under an umbrella of federation.
Complain about this comment
Jukka, re Iraq and Afghanistan, as Threnodio says a majority of people in the U.K are not supportive of our involvement in it. If, as you say, newscorp is so powerful it is surprising they could not convince the U.K. population of the Iraq war. The reason is that papers have tended to take an anti war stance and if anything has strengthened opinion against the Iraq war.
Re E.U budget, now the U.K. has agreed to freeze their rebate (for the good of the E.U. and accession countries) their net contributions to the E.U. will go up and continue to pull further ahead of France and others. Germany, as usual, wil continue to shoulder it's burden (although even it's citizens appear to be getting tired of this) But even if this was not the case at the moment the U.K. is paying around 20% more per capita than France. Other comments have mentioned how much stronger economically France and the eurozone countries are than the U.K. and how much better they will be able to weather the economic storm. In which case I hope they put their hands in their pocket and pay their share out of their increased economic success.
Re why the U.K. maintains it's alliance with the U.S. I agree if you take the last 8 years of the Bush administration it has not always seemed benefical to the U.K. However the U.K. does take a longer term view of alliances, if you loOk back at the last century, I believe allying ourselves with the U.S. has delivered more good than bad. We now have a new president in the U.S. (come January) and I believe the relationship with the U.S and the U.K. will pay dividends again.
Complain about this comment
Jukka_Rohila @189 wrote:
"To MaxSceptic (185):
What you say about your culture forming the bond, that I have to confess, I just don't understand, ..... "
Exactly: you don't understand.
As for: "money counts." That is true. But there are higher values: family, culture, philosophy, even patriotism.
If this was not so we'd all sell our souls and get into bed with filthy-rich Saudi Princelings, Russian Oligarchs and Nigerian Kleptocrats. (And some of our political leaders do!)
Complain about this comment
To be fair, it's not just Newscorp. Most of the British press have come up with entertaining anti-EU stories, and not just on April 1st. The Daily Telegraph is one of the most culpable (Brussels to ban church bells, Double-Decker buses, mushy peas) but also the Times (Brussels to require home made cakes to be labelled with ingredients) and, of course, the Mail (Brussels to ban firemen's poles) and the Express (Brussels to force vintage cars off the road). Even the relatively left-wing Observer isn't immune (Brussels to ban feeding of swans). My favourite was 'Brussels to require cows to be provided with mattresses' but I can't remember who invented that one.
Complain about this comment
Jukka, "kinder-kirche-kuche" here :o)
with technical bugs in-built into the system, preventing me from clear thinking on state affairs ! as you put it.
i think it is a futile effort to try to divorce US and UK. (don't you see they start from the same U, BTW, why to look for other reasons?) it's a family thing, UK views them as cousins, that's all.
it means they can dis-like, dis-agree and counter-oppose or whatever (if they would) but in case of anything there is a strong underlying belief that they'll be able to understand what the other one is about.
like, they feel safe ab each other. in case of anything.
don't know how it is on the US side, may be in smaller degrees, or diff. approches, I didn't rotate in Am. circles enough to get the feel.
from the English point of view many countries in the EU are terra ingognita, hard to figure out. US will always be more understandable than Finland for the British -and why would it be otherwise, on what grounds? you think you clicked your fingers, we are all in the EU, ought to think of each other now interests' first, a new cell of the society created. but it will take centuries, until you'll live through common troubles, etc.
yes, and on the matters accessible to my brains.
"if a girl is very late, 10 min. or more, by calling her.. meanwhile I can do something else, for example to go to a cafe, or look up new mobile phones.
Punctuality and efficiency - virtues both! :) "
very late
can do something else
look up new mobile phones !!!
Complain about this comment
And, Jukka, from the managerial point of view.
Question is - is it worth it to try to un-train them, USA and UK, to trust each other ? :o)
leave them alone and I am sure even Finland would be able to profit from this stance in several interesting ways.
at one point or another.
leave it; as it is you have a leverage. you just haven't thought of that.
And on the other hand, of course Networks so much in fashion these days and all; even in most simplistic views on the world you have a EU with an outstrethed eh well not hand
let's say with a dotted line connection to the USA via the UK. ? is it bad ? not bad at all. excellent.
Britain can sprout those lines; its inherent how to say, in their nature.
so be happy and use it and that is all, easy.
Complain about this comment
People cannot have it both ways even though they try to do so by assertion
jordanbasset @ #196 is quite right, the British newspapers take a very pro-troops but anti-Iraq War line and are very quick to highlight any MOD failures as almighty calamities and stress the desire of the British to disentangle the Nation from Iraq - for this the British Media receive accolades and compliments yet the British media are criticised for having an anti-EU stance and slated for highlighting the stupidness of the EU as it is.
Either NewsCorp and other segments of the British Media is right to be anti-Iraq War or it is right for them to be hailed to be anti-EU. People have to make up their own minds.
Oh. But, on thinking about that, Wait a minute. . . . . .
The British people are not as stupid as they are obviously considered to be in Finland and Germany, et al., the British people are probably savvy enough to make up their own minds and are not mere pawns of the British Media circus as the Finns and Germans think!
Complain about this comment
To Menedemus (201):
The mistake you and others in here are doing is to look on what the papers and the media are telling now and not remembering what they did then. Just for the fun of it, some commenting from those happy yesteryears.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/feb/17/mondaymediasection.iraq
To quote my favorite parts of the article:
"In London, the Times and the Sunday Times have left none of their readers in two minds about their pro-war sentiments, despite the overwhelming popular opposition to war."
"The Times, for instance, last week used its strongest language during this so-called phoney war to admonish the French president. Taunting Chirac for his opposition to what the French supposedly "Wrongly depict as a relentless American juggernaut", the Times concluded that he is leading France into a cul de sac and has therefore consigned it to "unsplendid isolation in the anteroom occupied by history's losers"."
"The Sunday Times also laid into the French and Germans, claiming that to adopt their attitudes "would be, to adapt the three wise monkeys, neither seeing, hearing nor acting on a brutal regime that defies the UN"."
"An earlier Sunday Times leader revealed the truth about the worldwide struggle of the Murdoch press to secure the hearts and minds of its millions of readers. "Winning the public-relations battle is almost as vital as military victory," said the Sunday Times. So that's what the editors have been doing then."
So how is it? How do you remember 2003? How you remember 1997? How do you remember things and situations from the past? The thing with a human memory is that it forgets more and more as times go on, but what actually doesn't change is the culture. My point is that popular opinion and culture in the UK has been skewed in time by Murdoch owned press and as it has happened gradually in time, in small steps, what you haven't noticed that the tones have moved to more harder and harsher on various topic, especially concerning the EU.
And on the end... to quote some dead bloke...
"Therefore I say that it is a narrow policy to suppose that this country or that is to be marked out as the eternal ally or the perpetual enemy of England. We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." -Lord Palmerston
Complain about this comment
And, Jukka, overall I of course support your peaceful stance, "withdraw from everywhere", stop pestering Iran, and stop that imperialistic ways, and when the dust settles down - take another look at the world. may be some interesting things will be identified.
________
with your concerns for the lack of unity with the EU.
a minor detail worries you only about it, that is - your Finland holds stakes in the EU enterprise.
but look at at from the really important perspective. you are forgetting your priorities.
a far more important thing is, (after all what is EU? and "Finland") -
the main thing that GERMANY is doing allright!
:o)
Complain about this comment
Jukka_Rohila @ #202
You are basically saying that proganda has won over the hearts and minds of the British who have not the wit to read many different papers, watch different televisin channels, listen to different radio commentators and, ultimately make up their own minds on matters that they, personally, believe in.
That just makes you sound arrogant and, to be frank, someone who is writing twaddle because they do not understand the British people or their mindset which can be very much more discerning than you give the British mentality credit for.
Complain about this comment
To Menedemus (204):
Regarding Iraq war...
No. The result is that there was a war in Iraq, occupation of Iraq and UK continued presence in the middle east and there seems to be no rational reasons for UK to be there or any advantages to be had. So the question is why all this happened? Why? Why? Why?
The fact of the matters are, there was pro Iraq war propaganda at the time. And then there was a war.
Now, either British population supported their government on their decision to go to a war or there wasn't support. If there wasn't support then why did the British government send troops there, why the government wasn't thrown out of office? So how is it? Why?
Regarding the press and the EU, the problem is that due to Murdoch press, the average opinions are against EU. If you run a news company and you sell headlines with things like "EU wants all new born sons" and the paper sells, what you have then is a competitor that tries the same, succeeds and you have an circle that feeds itself. When you take 20 years time frame, what you got is ever increasing circle of influence, you first got yellow press to scream about EU with their populist rhetoric and then you have quality papers following it. This is about bringing the system into tipping point from which it starts to roll into towards a certain point with its own weight. That's the point.
Complain about this comment
zhanette @135 my son asked me - mama - how long can crocodiles survive without food? One year! I didn't know that. More - reptiles can ajust their body t, makes them survival champions.
to the great pity of MAII and all with anti-Russia patology..
Russians are like crocodiles. They are matchless.
Zhanette, you know I could have choked laughing? it doesn't say anywhere it is safe for crocodiles to laugh? I had a pneumonia once, with barely crossing the red line temperature. docs say it's no good, one must resist, have temperature, and i was thinking - what is it with me.
now I know - I am slowly becoming a crocodile !
Complain about this comment
@ChrisPBacon, 152
"Well for you info. the Germans actually are very similiar to the Brits apart from 1 thing-They dont protest much in public..."
with all due respect, but you must be joking! I'm a German living in the UK for over 10 years, and the British don't complain at all it seems. I, and all (non-German) foreigners I know, think that the main reason a lot of the public services are so bad and expensive here is that the 'people at the top' know they will just get away with screwing the people, hardly anyone will say anything. maybe say something, but certainly not actually do anything. of course there are other reasons as well, but the main seems to be that complaining is just not considered polite in Britain.
and I don't understand what penalties for insulting the police have to do with anything here. are you seriously suggesting that protesting about public policies will land you in court for 'insulting a police officer'???
as it is, it's pretty well known that Germans are far more direct than the British are, and are far more likely to say something when they don't like things. I for example get constantly into trouble here in London at various work places for speaking my mind. a lot of people simply can't deal with it. and I've had many conversations with my British friends about that, and really, none of them would think about putting Britain into anywhere near the same category as France when it comes to protesting.
Complain about this comment
@168
oh please do your research and take some history lessons.you cant reply cause its true.
just the other week oxford students that invented eletronic paper opened up a 100 million pound factory in germany instead of the uk,that is lost skills,lost tech and lost jobs gone to germany and no doubt will increase there exports more aswell as revolutionising the world and will help stop amazon from being destroyed,but why did a british start up company go to germany first.
because german stated support tech componies with hand outs,tax breaks etc etc.
british goverment is great at high end education but is short on supporting spin off universities start ups which gordon brown said he would help but has not.
im sorry but noway can you say germany is bigger and better then uk.the uk contributes far more then germany to the world economy and europe,just a shame we dont keep the business in this country.
oh btw the uk also has the europes biggest oil company,worlds biggest advertising company wpp,worlds biggest building material company wosely. we also had the biggest cement maker in the world ,biggest ship builders in the world,biggest drinks company in the world and throu so called free trade we let them be taken over ,shut down and production moved to foreign countries,why? cause other countries give tax breaks n protect there own business.look at p&o being taken over and america blocked it cause didn`t want its ports in foreign hands haha.
ford has been trying to take over bmw for years but was told they would never be alowed to take over bmw.a british bank was rumored to be interested in buying a french bank and straight away french president came out and said no forein business can take over a french bank but we let them take over our british nuclear assets.haha just stinks,free trade and european union when every thing is fair and on a even playing ground untill then the uk should protect our factorys,business and let the world stew.
germany and france could not take over europe by wars and is using the so called EU as a proxy to control and carve up europe between them.thats why the EU is not working and will never work.every one is equal or none is equal,its simple really.dont you think its disgusting that france get half the EU budget but pays less then germany or the uk.we`re proping up french exports and its not on.
Complain about this comment
Jukka, re post 202, as I said in an earlier post the Times editorial can have an right wing bias, but that the reportage is normally fair and reasoned.
What I was trying to say in my post is that the Times and other newspapers have now adopted an anti war , anti Government stance, but as Menedemus correctly pointed out pro troops. There are frequent editorials about the failings of the British Government in respect of Iraq.
But this whole saga does emphasise about how wrong you are re these newspapers driving public opinion, rather they are catching up with it. Atr the start of the war the U.K. population was divided on support for the Iraq war, many papers were in favour of it. (lat least in part to do with the less than fully truthful comments from the Government)
Despite this the British public's anti war response grew and the papers started to reflect the reality on the ground. So far from the papers forming public opinion, you could argue public opinion helped change the views of papers.
As to why the Labour Party was not kicked out at the subsequent election 2 years later, there are a number of reasons. At that time the economy was looking good, the main opposition party still had not got it's act togother. Blair made a promise to leave Government at some time in the future etc etc.
To me it is a little like the E.U., most U.K. citizens have isues with it to a greater or larger degree. Unfortunately the only party that represents a very sceptic position is UKIP, and people despite their anger about the E.U. cannot bring themselves to vote for UKIP. So they carry on voting for the 3 main parties and put up with it. Come the european elections they sometimes take the chance to give the main parties a kick and vote UKIP, largely because they do not feel the E.U. Parliament is relevant or important.
Complain about this comment
To jordanbasset (209):
When you have succeeded on getting the country to join the war, there is no need to continue with the propaganda, the mission was accomplished.
The question in essence that you need to answer: would the UK have joined Iraq war if News Corp wouldn't have pro war push? If UK would have went to war even without News Corp, then you News Corp doesn't influence to push over tipping point, if you on the other hand say that News Corp gave a push that made the government go war, then it did have influence. So how was it?
And well... What actually is a enough serious matter on getting a government not to be elected. Engaging into an illegal war of aggressions doesn't seem to be enough. Being enslaved by the EU's faceless bureaucrats either doesn't seem to be enough. So what is?
Complain about this comment
Jukka, re post, 210, Blair was determined to take on what he thought (with an almost mesianic zeal) a 'rogue' nation and supported the U.S. in that end. He would have done this regardless of newspaper opinion. Also bear in mind that some newspapers were against it (Guardian and Indpendent), the main news channels also had misgivings, even many of his own party were agianst it . He would not be moved, unfortunately many pople who think they are right will not listen to reason:)
Re getting elected, as some one once said "it's the economy stupid"
Complain about this comment
Jukka -
I think you are pushing your luck now.
"The question in essence that you need to answer: would the UK have joined Iraq war if News Corp wouldn't have pro war push?"
Yes - it was a bad decision as many now recognise - but to blame it on a multi-millionaire who abandoned his Australian credentials to become American simply for the tax advantages is to gratuitously insult the intelligence of the British and overstate the power of the press barons.
Your intentions are doubtless good but you are, almost single handedly, driving some of us towards a Eurosceptic position by refusing to accept a third way.
Complain about this comment
"When you have succeeded on getting the country to join the war . . . "
When who succeeded?
Bush, Blair, Sadam, Murdoch, Bin Laden, The Times? If you have a point, make it.
Complain about this comment
Jukka_Rohila @ 205
If there wasn't support then why did the British government send troops there, why the government wasn't thrown out of office? So how is it? Why?
I can well imagine that the 2nd Iraq War is possibly the most unpopular war in the history of Great Britain.
The British Government has an executive arm that (at the time although Gordon Brown has proposed changing this) allows the Prime Minister to declare war or simply commit troops to battle with the proviso that this decision is subject to parliamentary ratification or disapproval.
This ratification is a parliamentary perogative. which means that the members of Parliament can do so as the electorate, no more and probably even less so, cannot forsee if warlike complication may arise during the course of a Parliament. MPs are therefore granted this privelege as a de facto palriamentary authority.
From a pragmatic point of view it is entirely within the wit of most sane people to realise that, once your country is at war and your troops are on the frontline then the general population will stay relatively quiet and maintain support for their troops (who happen to be the electorates' sons, daughters/husband, wives/brothers, sisters) UNTIL the war is over.
There are some populist parliamentarians who now vocalise that, if they knew then what they know now, they might not have voted to sanction the Prime Minister's (Tony Blair) executive decision to go to war with Iraq. Even so, they would admit that they will only seek a review or the events leading up to the declaration of war AFTER British troops have been withdrawn and their lives no longer at direct risk in Iraq.
The British Electorate can vote in a new government at the end of each term and by doing so show their disapproval of the current parliament and executive branch handling of power whilst in government. However, it is a historical and paractical fact that whilst our nation is at war it has been the usual case that the current British governemet is not ousted.
This proviso will change in 2010 when Britain has most likely withdrawn in full from Iraq and the next General Election is held in the UK.
Frankly, I will be voting to defeat the Labour Party at the next General Election for a whole host of reasons that include their handling of the war in Iraq not least of all the events after invasion of Iraq more so than the events leading up to the invasion.
The other thing to bear in mind is that, as important as the war in Iraq is seems to the rest of the world, the British people actually care about more important things in life. You and I may want to see the British withdrawn form Irawq but most British people are more keen on voting to keep or dismiss John Sargeant from the popular Staurday Night "Strictly Dancing" show or whether Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross should have been fired for being salacious and ungracious on a pre-recorded radio show. They really do not care about the Iraq War and even less about what you or I think.
Many of the NewsCorp Media outlets simply pander to that level of thinking and reflect that level of consciousness. That is why I think the British Media does not shape public opinion so much as apes it.
Complain about this comment
193. SuffolkBoy2:
"On the whole "EU"-lovers are undemocratic and anti-democratic. They can never build a democratic united Europe."
Here's a challenge for you. Go on one of the visitors' tours of the EU institutions (I suppose that you didn't know and don't believe that that's possible) find out at first hand how they work and then report back on what you saw, heard and learned. Do you dare or are you scared that your prejudices might take a knock?
Complain about this comment
@210 Bravo, Jukka!
total Hans Christian Andersen - the steadfast tin soldier! part 2.
Complain about this comment
Forgive me, but this is a case in point. I have just received a news briefing email (from Newsnight) which contains the following:
"Today the French called for 3,000 extra UN troops". (This with reference to Congo).
What does this mean? That the French would like a UN mandate so they can send 3,000 troops? That someone else should send 3,000 troops? We are being bombarded with half-baked stupid ideas, badly communicated and completely lacking in clarity. Does anyone have something concrete and sensible to propose?
Complain about this comment
#214 - Menedemus
I am sorry but a formal declaration of war is still within the Royal Prerogative. The sovereign may declare without reference to Parliament. In practice, this means that the government of the day may do so without referring back. However, it's not easy fighting a war without money and, for that, the government does need to consult.
Complain about this comment
Jukka: I am beginning to think you are a Murdoch-funded plant designed to undermine the EU by shining a light on the federalist agenda. Or maybe you are CIA-funded via Libertas? Questions must be asked of your efforts to discredit the EU project!
Alice (171-3): Nice posts. I think it is not so much an issue of capitalism versus socialism though. Everywhere in the world people want good health care, pensions, clean air and water, but in the present state of human development these things can only be afforded in a relatively few parts of the world. Let's hope things get better.
Complain about this comment
Jukka
"Engaging into an illegal war of aggressions doesn't seem to be enough".
Illegal? Please explain.
Complain about this comment
@214 Menedemus, so the PM can declare war or "simply commit troops to battle", which is then subject to the parliamentary ratification or disapproval.
I am interested in abstract terms, not about that war. with that war as you explained all is possible but only post factum, when last soldier home etc.
in that war the parliament ratified.
was it they didn't ratify ever PM's decision to commit troops to battle, say, in the past century or more recent times? or there simply wasn't many wars, thus there is no way to make a comprehensive idea?
how much time if you know perchance they have got, btw war declaration by PM and the time when they ratify or disapprove?
I am simply technically interested what can stop Britain from going to war after a PM declares, and how soon it may happen.
in case of anything. you know. :o)
because after the first soldier is on alien land nothing seemingly can, exactly as you wrote - comon sense of worry for one of own kin, and that you "don't change horses in river crossing", that is noone in his right mind starts havoc at home by making PM resign or whatever, when you are in a risky state of war. etc other reasons. all understandable.
what historians will write of a war post factum - big deal, i mean, no importance. what songs will be composed etc.
during - no changes possible. after - doesn't matter. so I am naturally inquisitive about the beginning.
Complain about this comment
just an abstract observation, today at 8 am was released an internet film - Russian make and in Russian, so no relevance to you at this point,
"Waina 08.08.08.
Art of treason."
on the base of 40hrs of video in war in SO.
Simult. was a premiere in a normal movie theatre in Moscow, UN went to see and someone from EU as well, with interpretors.
should have been in Kiev as well, but Juschenko got cataleptical about it and closed their movie house, armed troops broke in and took all spectators out, as easy as that. then he wrote us a note of protest that it is Russian insinuation that we blame Ukraine in treason.
big scandal here. i haven't seen the film, though 2 mln more lucky ones with normal PCs already watched it today since the morn.
Russian TV says "treason" it is about Saakashvili, of Ukraine 2 minutes of 48 minute film, nobody blamed Ukraine in treason, but Juschenko continues to rage.
Complain about this comment
Menedemus, I read threnodio's @218.
knew there is something missing in the war declaration picture!
so did the Queen declare war to Iraq in that case, or it was not a war but decision to commit troops to battle?
like we "committed" in Georgia, as i understand, without any war declarations?
in fact, interesting here from the technical point of view as well. what's that sending troops to battle without a war announced?
may be we should stop these "committments" bad practice combined, and streamline the process to the old clear rules - either you declare or you don't. and where you don't you simply don't go :o)
Complain about this comment
#223 - WebAliceinwonderland
I was, of course, being technical. In practice, the Queen would not declare war in any circumstances. However, if there was a formal declaration of war, she would have to sign it. Her government does not need the authority of parliament to go to war.
But what is war? On one level, it is just a bunch of people shooting at each other. On another, it is a formal process involving all the diplomatic niceties.
Sadly, everyone is far too fond of shooting at each other these days to be bothered with the diplomatic paperwork. This is why I asked Jukka about his 'illegal'' war. The next question is 'what war'? I don't remember anyone declaring war. They all just started shooting.
Complain about this comment
threnodio @ #217
Are you sure? My reading of the prerogative power is that the authority to Declare War is a power of The Crown (read State).
I read that the 1688 Bill of Rights confers this prerogative power to the State and away from the Monarch by differentiating between Sovereign Powers embodied within the State's Authority versus remaining limited Absolute Powers embodied within the remit of the Monarch.
The Sovereign may still declare a State of War but the power is atrophied.
Thus, all subsequent declarations of war have been declared by the British Prime Minister and the Articles of War are given royal assent AFTER Parliament has sanctioned the war to effectively fund it as you rightly put it.
As an addendum, Great Britain has actually not declared a State of War to exist since 1942 when it last did so against Siam. The country is never ever likely to declare war again as the need to do so is also an atrophied requirement given that the "Enemy" knows full well it is in an Armed Conflict when the guns start firing and the missiles and bombs start falling!
Complain about this comment
#225 - Menedemus
Actually, no I am not sure.
I am entirely clear that the formal instrument declaring war has to be signed by the Sovereign. I am also clear that a government may declare a state of emergency under which it may act using Orders in Council and so avoid Parliamentary. This is really a matter of common sense. If Parliament is in recess and someone lobs a missile in your general direction, you don't have a lot of time for legal niceties.
In this sense, the Sovereign can declare war on the initiative of her government and the consent of Parliament is not required. What is also clear is that, in a modern democracy, the idea that the monarch as head of state, would declare a state of war on her own initiative is unthinkable. However, whether a government or indeed Parliament can declare war without the say so of the head of state is moot because the situation has never arisen. Legally, I think not.
As you rightly say, it is academic anyway. Once the shooting starts, the paperwork is relatively unimportant except for one thing. Rules of engagement have to be determined and, if a state of war is not formalised, do the Geneva conventions apply? Can you commit a war crime if you are not at war?
I confess I do not know the answer to that one.
Complain about this comment
thank you, threnodio and menedemus, now I have a better idea. in case of anything :o)
still, what are the Articles of War? i saw them mentioned in Captain Hornblower i think... or may be in Master and Commander..
is it those mysteriois "Articles" are published, and from that moment on the Navy are paid normal salaries, not 1/2 as in peaceful times?
I found the idea fascinating; was about to send a suggestion to our Duma to follow Hornblower rules in the Russian army.
Like, reduce them all immediately to 1/2 pay because anyway since WW2 they have nothing to do.
no wars anyway we wage anywhere presently, so what's the point and all. ;o)
(just thought about it in the morn - and at night the Georgian affair began! )
_____
self-correction ab "War 08.08.08" film. Was released not this Tuesday but that other Tuesday. No way 2 mln would have seen it since this morn. But Joushenko scandals today allright.
but
Complain about this comment
Freeborn-John, @219, thank you.
(couldn't resist the temptation to complain a little bit, seeing how Germany and USA did in turns in this thread.)
"can be afforded in a relatively few parts of the world" - that's very true, but that's why exactly we are angry, because Russia is not the case.
or, at least, it wasn't until the crisis :o)
heaps of money here. spent in the most hilarious way. grand cathedrals instead of a subway line extention. road patching in -20.
Abkhasia and Ossetia. Cuba now again.
mahogany gilden furniture made in Spain to order to match 1860 design for the city parliament.
stare silly into our budgets at all levels - you won't find one line of any practical application.
sure as death, taxes and whatever.
a plague. really we stopped caring whether country is rich or poor. changes nil for 70%.
Complain about this comment
206 Alice,
you are the best.
Next time i go to Sankt Petersburg i invite
you for dinner. I hope you accept.
cheers,
Complain about this comment
The pleasure is all mine. :o)
Complain about this comment
@229
Lived and was crocodile
He along the Nevsky walked
And in Turkish he spoke
And a pipe he smoked."
Complain about this comment
Alice @ #227
The Articles of War are the formal parliamentary documents that outline the cassus belli and the declaration of war upon the foreign nation. Once ratified by Parliament on a majority vote, the documents pass to the Queen for her to sign as Head of State.
It is similar process for when the UK ratifies a Treaty or an Accord or passes an Act of Parliament.
It is like a show after the Lord Mayor has passed by . . . . the action has already gone by but we English, Welsh and Scottish like to do things "properly" and tidy up the loose ends. It's an historical legacy of being very precise in the way things should be done.
The other more recent "British" don't give a farthing for these kind of niceties (an old quarter of a penny by the way . . . I forgot to mention that one! :=)). Perhaps a reason why War is now not officially declared now just announced in the Media.
Complain about this comment
Alice (228): I am sure you are right that there is plenty of money in Russia, but that a lot is wasted. Some things in your earlier comment #173 reminded me of a theory I read some years ago about the importance of 'trust' in shaping the economies of different countries. This theory divides cultures into high-trust and low-trust societies, for example Germany, the Netherlands or Japan might be high-trust and maybe Russia would be low-trust if it is true like you say that you cannot trust Russian insurance companies, private pensions, etc.
The idea is that in low-trust societies it is difficult for the private sector to expand beyond family-owned businesses where loyalty to family outweighs temptations to profit at the company expense. The state therefore becomes the 'organizer of last resort' in low-trust societies for all projects too big for family-sized companies to handle. So low-trust societies always have very big and inefficient/corrupt state sectors.
This theory can also explain why privatization was successful in the UK (a high-trust society) but not in Russia. When large state-owned businesses are privatized in a low-trust society the managers of the privatized company can feel they have a once in a lifetime opportunity to enrich themselves, and that if they fail to exploit the opportunity their colleagues will do so anyway. So privatization in low-trust societies can lead to rapid criminalisation of the economy.
Anyway, this theory is from Francis Fukuyama (one of Jukka's favourite authors I am sure). Other societies he identifies as low-trust (e.g. Italy, Belgium, France, Greece) have been able to prosper as part of the global economy through a combination of their numerous domestic small companies plus reliance on large companies that grew up in high-trust societies. Of course the private sector cannot do everything, but Russia too should have less need than in the past for an inefficient state 'organizer of last resort', providing she is prepared to become part of the globalised economy.
Complain about this comment
#225 - Menedemus
You are right about the Articles of War. I had a moment of confusion - I meant to refer to Rules of Engagement.
Alice - Rules of Engagement, put very simply - are orders to commanders in the field as to what they may or may not do in the conduct of the war. It contains things such as not killing if it is practical to take prisons alive, the treatment of prisoners, rules governing the treatment of civilians and so on. Normally the rules will include an order to comply at all times with the Geneva Convention as a minimum standard.
I think this is important because modern warfare increasingly involves combatants who do not wear uniform. You then get knock on effects such as extreme rendition and detention of civilians without trial (GITMO). This seems to be one reason why formal declarations has gone out of fashion. A cynic might also observe that it is the main reason the USA has not signed up to the ICHR.
Complain about this comment
Thank you.
Articles of War sound very pretty, somehow I liked the name, that's why remembered from books. (I had various interesting ideas, menedemus, re what they could possibly be.
so I am glad I know now who they are, in their ? unswerving shine.-ess.
Rules of Engagement - wouldn't be able to decipher myself, must be, either.
I'd put them towards engagement rings someplace :o)
But Articles sound more scientific, than rules, so it is all sensible, first - Articles, then - (boring) Rules.
Now to stop writing this nonsence,
Freeborn-John (and menedemus and threnodio of course), the low trust Fukuyama theory does seem to suit us wonderfully well. However, I had another idea, re drastic state of our state-responsibility sectors of home affairs.
May be Freeborn-John's first thought was right? That is Russia is simply poor and can't afford health care, pensions and things?
It's not that all is stolen away (as it seems to Russians on the ground), but simply there isn't enough, and we pester our Government for nothing? (I mean, I hope "for nothing" cannot simply be), but anyway. My thought is this - how much money should a country have to live well.
Russia is exactly twice the population of Britain. Slightly less. Let's forget all other in-coming factors, mould-up, geographies, climate and all, do a rough estimation.
How much Russia makes a year - no idea.
And anyway with our habots to tuck all away last years as a packrat into the "Stabilisation Fund" - the one that is shrinking now day to day, pumping money back into places, good hopes we'll be able to spend in 2 months what was saved for 6 years. Nevermind. I'd look some place our yearly budget. How much we spent. Any of these last years.
Will you pls look up for me how much Britain spent, one of any these years?
Will Russia's spend be exactly the double of Britain, per year (having twice more people)?
Or, rather - that one farthing of it. If not the tenth part?
Complain about this comment
(i wonder why we live as extraordinary idiots, the laugh of the whole world. is it operations or a management issue)
Complain about this comment
Alice,
Re. #235
The Wanless Report, dated 2002, calculated that the Budget for the UK National Health Service would reach 109billion (GBP) by 2007/2008 having progressively risen from 69billion (GBP) in 2002/2003.
This is Net Expenditure as the NHS is funded on an as needs basis through self-funding and government subsidy.
The question is not so much how much does the UK Healthcare cost but is the subsidy spent wisely? And that I seriously doubt.
Thus, Russia could, if it wished, adopt a similar health scheme in Russia and, if it chose to do so with more reasonable spending controls than the UK's NHS Services, probably not require twice as much expenditure.
On the other hand, the average health and well-being of the general population of the country does have a big impact upon the Healthcare costs and the UK populace is becoming obese and more prone to illness year-on-year thus requiring more healthcare provision and raising expenditure costs.
I cannot speak for the general health and well-being of the Russian people but the Russians I have met are of very similar build to the Anglo-Saxons - "Burly" is a nice word to describe us! (Definition: An expressive term to mean something is good, awesome, amazing, unbelievable. Origin believed to be East London Slang.)
Complain about this comment
Gordon Brown raised some ideas for constitutional change when he first became PM, including that the PM should no longer be able to declare war without a vote in parliament. While his proposed changes sound quite good they are not of great significance in practice because the essence of parliamentary democracy is that the PM is anyway the same person who commands the majority in the House of Commons.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6258794.stm
The US system where the president is commander-in-chief, but a declaration of war requires a vote in Congress (a body independent of the presidency) is far superior. The US Congress can also withhold funding from a president so bring an expensive war to and end. Ironically these powers of the US Congress are derived from hard-won powers of the British parliament to restrain our former kings? warlike tendencies. Yet today Britons have effectively lost these powers because the so-called 'royal prerogatives' are now exercised by the same Prime Minister who can whip the House of Commons to do his will rather than of the people who elected it.
Complain about this comment
Menedemus -
Now I really do have to comment - with great respect because I realise that your knowledge is far greater in this field. But surely the biggest single issue that is driving up costs in geriatric care. We are mainly living much longer and surviving conditions which would have killed us not so many years ago. This not only adds significant costs in healthcare terms but has a knock on effect un social spending - sheltered accommodation, more pensioners, more DLA claiments, falling income tax revenue. A case of the welfare state being the victim of its own success?
Complain about this comment
Alice: Russia is poor relative to the West, but compared to the East she is rich. In India you will see old women left to die in the streets when their husbands are gone, with no social security whatever. At least in Russia you say that the state provides some very basic pension and services for those without family support. So maybe it is the case that the services available in each country are ultimately limited by resources.
(Another factor is solidarity. Social services ultimately involve taking money of some people trhoguh taxation and giving it to others. And this is turn depends on a strong solidarity that is only found within nations. Left-wing EU federalists would very likely find that their beloved EU state would not have the internal solidarity needed to provide the quality social services they value.)
Complain about this comment
Menedemus. need to run to work. looked up "budget of Russia". Saw this:
roubles 2007
in-coming 6,965,317,000,000
spent 5,463,489,000,000
(that was a "fat" year, as we understand)
similar to 2006, 2005
this 2008 defective year, as we understand,
the budget "spend" part is set as:
6,500,300,000,000
I divided these roubles by 48. Like, as min. before the crisis 1 pound sterling = 48 Russian roubles. (don't know what it is now, but now is abnormal anyway)
Appears Russia spends this year:
BP 135,423,000,000
Which looks suspiciously the same as your health spend only!
So yes, we are simply poor! to want to live like you do. alas.
Complain about this comment
"bozhe moi!" my God. and we all complain about why the standard of living is not like "in the West", making this pea-nuts of money, in the first place !
Complain about this comment
threnodio @ 239
You are right of couse. An ageing indigenous population is a potential huge additional burden for the NHS but with an average net gain of immigration over emigration of approxiamtely 250,000 per annum the UK population demograph is actually becoming younger.
This is helped by the fact that the emigration is mainly old people like me want to escape to sunnier climes where we can be a health problem for other nations. Not through choice when we emigrate I hasten to add! ;=)
As an aside and in the spirit of humour only: As an example of statistics being open to misinterpretation. Spain is apparently the most dangerous place on earth for the British emigrants over the age of 50.
Greece, with its dangerous roads and poor driving, accounts for about 1 death a year on average for British emigrants over the age of 50. Spain accounts for over 800 deaths per annum for the same group.
Considering the statistics, you should not consider emigrating to Spain if you are British and over 50! :=))
Complain about this comment
Just quickly...
To WebAliceinwonderland (235):
Sad to hear about the state of health care in Russia. However having good health care system doesn't necessarily mean that people will long and healthy lives. My friends dads doctor gave him sentence of 4 - 8 years of life due to disease diagnosed too late.
The tradegy with men in their 50s and 60s in this country seems to be that they avoid going for medical examination with all means as possible. I and my mother have had many times beg and force my father to go to doctors, same story in many other family. They for some reason seem to have some irrational fear on going to doctors: as if not hearing that they are in bad shape would change their situation. ;-)
In case about Russian health care, I would say its not about money, its about will on taking care of citizens. Biggest costs in health care are caused by investments to latest healt care technology and having the latest and greatest drugs available. The thing however is that you don't necessarily need latest and greatest technology and drugs to make an impact...
Graph of expected life time...
http://www.stat.fi/org/historia/elinajanodote.html
So if you look at the graph, the difference between 1980 and this day is approx 7 years. The reason I chose 1980 is because all drugs and technology from that time should be patent free and in case of technology easy and cheap to produce.
Of course for individual his or her life is incalculable valuable thus if there is some new technology or drug that would give life time, then of course its very sad if that can't be given. However it seems that just getting the healt care work even with old technology and drugs in Russia would be huge improvement on what the situation now is.
To Freeborn-John (240):
Federation doesn't necessarily mean that we all adopt the same social system. Taking care of citizens and permanent residents of a country is best taken care by individual states themselves. Federal rules and regulations are needed to make sure that minimal harm and hardship is caused to citizens when vising other countries and making sure cross-border transactions are treated fairly, i.e. pensions.
It should be mentioned that wanting Federal Europe doesn't equate on wanting a federation like the USA has.
Complain about this comment
#239, threnodio,
The 'ageing' of our populations is certainly a major part of the increasing costs, but I'm afraid that most of the cost of the NHS is in the administration and which has increased a lot under Blair and Brown. Most geriatric care is provided by home carers as most private care homes are too expensive, indeed most councils buy places in private homes due to them not having enough beds of their own. The amount that home carers get for being in effect 'businesses' and 'care managers' is not very much as I know from a good friend of mine that looked after her paraplegic mother for many years. She was obliged to become a business by Blairs rules and control the salaries of the carers she employed due to the severity of her mothers case. Therefore whilst hospital places are taken up by geriatric care, most of the true cost is still born by the relatives of the aged person. My own daughter has worked in this field for many years as a care team manager in a nursing home and in hospitals and I've heard a lot about the funding issue from her and how the hospitals can't wait to release a old person admitted because of a problem back to the care home.
Personally, I think if the NHS got rid of most of the clip board holders, and they do exist as any nurse will tell you, they may have enough money already. However I have to say I worked in the NHS in 76/77 and since then I've seen no improvement, the administration is still just as over manned, under worked as then, and there are still far too many training courses that never get used.
Complain about this comment
#245 - Buzet23
I have a lot of experience with the NHS from a carers perspective but this involved long periods at hospital watching first hand how it works. There is one major problem when you are seriously ill and that is getting referred quickly and to the right people. There are all too often walls of junior doctors and medical doctors (surgeons are much better at this) who think they know more than they do and fail to spot unusual and complex issues. With that proviso, I have very positive experiences of the NHS. Once the system has recognised what is going on and identified a course of action, they really do pull out all the stops. I have witnessed first hand some truly astonishing work at the transplant unit of a major teaching hospital including with my own partner who had successful pioneering surgery and aftercare.
I have, however come to the conclusion that the NHS is excellent if you are seriously ill but not very good if you are unwell. To some extent, that patients have to carry some of the responsibility. People turning up at A and E at 3.00 in the morning with flu symptoms make life very difficult for everyone. On the other hand, there are complaints which are not life threatening but very debilitating and quite easy to treat. I have never understood the economic logic of making people wait for joint replacement, for instance, given that the more serious cases will be unable to work and drawing benefits when they could be back at work in a couple of weeks.
I think you are right about over management at the lower levels when the administrators tend to be paid a lot of money for tinkering at the edges and getting in the way. I used to quitely chuckle at bed managers choosing their moments to make changes so as to avoid the wrath of ward sisters or watched them cringe when a consultant tells them that will do exactly as the medical staff tells them. There are also serious issues regarding 'post code treatments' and am absolutely horrified when one health authority denies medication to someone when another patient just down the road is getting it. My partner had to get prescriptions for six months from the Midlands while waiting for hor local authority to make up it's mind while others in the neighbouring county were having no problems.
So yes, there is a lot that can be done better on the admin front. Having said that, some of our friends from the States are quite fond of bashing the NHS (on what evidence, I have no idea). When you consider that the system provides front line services free of charge to more than 60 million people, I would say that on balance, they do a damned good job.
Complain about this comment
To threnodio, Menedemus, Freeborn-John, jordanbasset, others:
Okey, I believe you are all convinced that UK isn't guided by foreign media mogul or it being tethered by the USA. Lets continue with that presumption. Lets look why the Iraq war was so important. First some background...
Euro started its life as a currency in 1999 and hold 18,14% of foreign exchange holding. In November 2000 Iraq started to trade its oil with euro and later converted all its accounts from dollars to euros. In Q4 of 2000 euro had reserve position of 18,29% which grew to to 25,10% in Q2 of 2003. After invasion to Iraq and its return to trade only dollars, euro took hit and dived to 23,45% in Q2 of 2004. After that it has steadily strengthened to 26,99% in Q2 of 2008.
The Iraq was was all about it trading oil with euro. Continued and heightened tension with Iran is all about it deliberating to start oil trade with euro. If US hadn't invaded Iraq, it would have been probable that Iran and other Gulf state countries would have started to trade oil with euro. If that would have happened then the US dollar would have collapsed. The euro instead could have reached already parity with the dollar and could now be the leading reserve currency.
The importance of having a leading reserve currency to Eurozone is that it gives amply of benefits, not only it allows to externalize inflation, but as all trade is carried with using euro from raw materials to end products, European companies wouldn't have currency risks at all. By removing over-head costs and costs of currency risks European companies would have become more competitive and Eurozone countries would have had a tremendous boost to their economies.
Now that hasn't happened thanks to US lead and UK assisted invasion and occupation of Iraq. I can understand why US did it, but what I can't understand is why UK went along. The thing is Iraq war was a war against euro, it was an indirect war against Eurozone economies. For US the benefits were clear, but why would UK want to deliberately cause harm to Eurozone economies? What would it gain from that?
From my point of view, UK taking part on Iraq war was the same shooting itself on the leg. UK is economically linked to continental Europe and it too would have benefited on strengthening of Euro and Eurozone. If UK would have joined euro later on, it would have again benefited on euro being stronger. I just don't see how Iraq war, how the stalling of euro did any good to it in short, medium or long term!
So the question is why UK did it? If we presume that UK did it independently then the question is why? Do the British, people or the ruling class, hate so much Europe or EU that they would try to sabotage euro and cause real harm to Eurozone economies? I just mentally can't accept that, its just so headcase possibility, but what else am I going to think if explanation to Iraq war can't be found from News Corp? And no, I'm not going to accept to put all this to Blair's fault, one man just can't change the direction of government and the cultural values that drive it so much.
So how is? Is it News Corp directing UK, or it is ill will of the UK government against continental Europe?
Complain about this comment
Freeborn-John, @240.
Thank you for the consolation, "compared to the East", of course.
But still, to find out one day that your budget total is in the same league as Britains's NHS only... !!! we are poor as church rats.
"in India" oh well. surely Timbuktu as well. Antarctida and places.
in one of these blogs were looking up "empire" in the wik, found ourselves in the old club, 1855 to the WW1. by GDP size, by percentage of world GDP, what not in many listings top trio or the fourth. to say nothing about land. wiki can lie, but there are still some who remember how it was!
OK, none of them, but I remember grandma fairy tales how it was before. was very instructive as far as I remember, for me a Soviet child. mysterious things like "a chocolate bomb", her grandad was in a good habit to give her 5 copeck coin every morn., to lighten her spirits on the way to gymnasium (means "school" in Russia).
and what one is to find inside that mysterious "bomb"! a silk ribbon for the braid, or a ring.
her bonna-s (teachers for languages, on diff. days of the week); that doll made of chocolate her own size, for the 5 year birthday! (this last one bit of news left un? in? ineffaceable impressions on me. as you can see, decades after!)
whatever wiki says or not says life definitely was allright here.
and now we have even less people, to be taken care of, 136 mln Vs 178 in Russia pre-revolution, I mean, land is the same, old place, with education - all are overqualified as hell. every floor sweeper in a hotel with 2 higher educations! and no communism for 16 years, no cold war expense, no republics or Africa, Eastern Europe to keep, so, like, what? what else do you want?
hell know what
Complain about this comment
Jukka, when you do sensible things only, you forget that others may do insensible things as simple as that.
You can't imagine someone deliberately doing smth that one knows will harm him?
It happens here and there non-stop, for reasons beyond monetary reasons.
Complain about this comment
Re 3. At 11:11am on 14 Nov 2008, Ticape wrote:
"What's going to interest me the most about this recession is whether or not the Euro and the EU will survive it."
Judging from the markets it's not the Euro's survival that seems to be the question. It's another currency to the West of Europe. And it's not the Norse Krona nor the Swiss Franc... if you see what I mean ;-)
I'm always amazed by the perseverance of so-called "Euroskeptics" in their tired non-arguments. So much so that they are unable to seize momentous events around them. Titanic's orchestra someone?
Complain about this comment
#247 - Jukka_Rohila
If I may say so and if it is possible, the idea that Britain would go to war simply to undermine the Euro is utterly ridiculous.
Iraq has been for many years a member of OPEC. OPEC collectively decides which reserve to use for pricing oil and has consistently opted for petrol dollars. The idea of creating a petroeuro comes up from time to time, most recent this autumn and Saudi Arabia has repeatedly killed off the idea. Saudi Arabia has made it quite clear why as well. They have stated unequivocally that a stable world economy is the best environment in which to trade oil and that to change the reserve currency for short term advantage would, in the medium term be so disruptive to global currency values that it would destabilise the global economy. There is no way that any member of OPEC is going to price its output in anything other than the currency determined by the cartel. The United States is very well aware of this and simply needs to keep Saudi on board in order to achieve this. It does not need any help from the UK in this respect.
In the run up to the second Gulf War, lawyers in both Britain and the UK advised their respective governments that UN Resolution 1441 gave them the authority, without referring back to the Security Council, to go to war with Iraq in the event that Iraq failed to comply. They further advised that the ongoing disruption of Hans Blix attempts at verifying the existence or otherwise of WMDs was a constructive violation of 1441. Had the French and Germans not disagreed, they would have been parties to the war themselves. I take it you are not suggesting that French and Germans also wanted to undermine the Euro.
The advice from Blix to the UN was to persist with the verification agenda, advice with which both France and Germany agreed along with Russia. China indicated that it would abstain. At about the same time, new intelligence became available which suggested that agents working on behalf of Saddam were seeking to acquire fissionable material from somewhere in Africa (I forget where). The intelligence is believed to have come from a British source.
Both the UK and the US concluded that war was inevitable and it was therefore desirable to 'get the whole thing done and dusted' before Saddam could make further preparations. It has subsequently emerged that the intelligence on which the war was based was flawed. (the debate about whether it was deliberately fabricated is a separate one). It has also subsequently emerged that there was a division in the legal community as to the legality of war without a further UN resolution. Again, it is not yet clear as to whether the Attorney-General's advice was deliberately written to justify war or was sincerely given. It is clear that Alistair Campbell, press secretary at No.10, was briefing to put the action in a favourable light.
The United States could not realistically launch a unilateral war for diplomatic reasons. The so called coalition of the willing was duly assembled. Britain was committed to this in three ways - firstly, that she had taken the view at the UN that a further resolution was not required in order for action to proceed: secondly, because British sources were believed to have been central to concluding that there was a clear and present danger and: thirdly, both countries appear to have been persuaded that it would all be over in weeks. To some extent, they were right. Saddam's forces crumbled almost on first contact. Where they were horribly wrong was believing that the Iraqi people would emerge patting everyone on the back, thanking them for their help and building a democracy like an Ikea furniture kit. The allies where right about winning the war but hopelessly wrong about winning the peace.
If the French and Germans had not objected to the war on legal grounds, you could tear up your theory about a war on the Euro from day one. However, neither the UK nor the US waited for the outcome of these deliberations. They made it clear that they were going to war, France and Germany were not. If this was a war intended to destabilise the Euro, the allies would have actively discouraged the participation of any Eurozone countries. They did not.
It is clear that Blair was uncomfortably close to Bush and we can see with the wisdom of hindsight that the US was pursuing two foreign policies simultaneously - a cautious one being promoted by Colin Powell's State Department and an aggressive one championed by Donald Rumsfeld's DOD. It is also clear that Rumsfeld was in the ascendency at this time. It is also an open secret - although how relevant this is I know not - that Blair and Jacques Chirac had a difficult relationship and there is a suggestion that Blair wanted to 'get one over on him'. It is also possibly the case that Gerhard Schröder was thought in London to be too close to France in European matters and in both London and Washington of being too close to Putin. It is not clear to me whether this is a factor, (especially since Angela Merkell is also on good terms with Putin and nobody seems concerned about that).
I am open to suggestions that the Blair government - not Britain as a whole - was uncomfortably close to Bush. I am also open to the possibility that both the intelligence and the legal advice were distorted to promote the government's agenda. However, for all your learned discourse, there is not one shred of evidence to suggest that Iraq was willing to break ranks with OPEC and price it's oil in Euros and absolutely nothing to suggest a conspiracy by the UK and the States to undermine the Eurozone.
If you are going to persist in your assertion that the UK is the totally negative European in the pocket of the White House, you are going to have to come up with something more credible with an Australian comic publisher and anti-Euro conspiracy theory.
Complain about this comment
Mavrelius. (miss Mavrelius) @118.
Tell the servants to lay in a good supply of Beluga caviar. And oh yes, I'll let you know what vintags of Dom Perignon I prefer, probably the 1990.
Mavrelius. My salary is 400 dollars a month. I hope.
And all of it is spent on taxis to get there!
I mean, if you have never been spoiled, it's too late for you to start now.
Complain about this comment
Nanotchka, you disappoint me terribly. And here I was all set to come visit you in St. Petersburg at your dascha with your servants. I figured we'd go for a sleigh ride through the forest in your horse drawn troika. Now you are telling me no servants, no Beluga caviar, no Dom Perignon, no troika, no horses? What kind of fabled existance is this? Not even a cement floor in the garage. Did you expect me to do that at my age or did you think, ha ha, that rich American will hire someone for me. Who do you think I am Anna Karenina, Count Vronsky? Well then I figured, Macdonalds and Bourbon. But as it turns out, I've checked the flight schedules and by the time I got there, I'd immediatly have to leave to get home on time to go to work in the morning.
Funny about what you said about cab fare. I was just talking about it with a friend, I have enough money left over from taxes, mortgage payments, and utility bills to pay for gas to get back and forth to work. Funny how two such places that seem to be so opposite in the end work the same way :-)
Complain about this comment
Re post 251, Threnodio, a fair and good summary, I do think in addition Balir thought he had another 'hand of history ' moment,
Jukka re post 247, why when some of your posts are reasonable and well thought out do you go into one of your conspiracy theory tirades. It is like some thing from Austin Powers. Apparently the wicked Americans aided on by their weak willed cousins (the British) and egged on by the evil empire (called newscorp) plotted a dastardly plan to destabilise the euro.
To do this they take the risk of launching an unpopular war (in the U.K. anyway), spending billions of pounds, putting at risk their own economies and most importantly the lives of their citizens.
The U.K. Governemt is not against the E.U., lat alone continental europe, it is actually very pro as we have seen by them ratifying the Lisbon treaty even though it has done them damage in public support.
The British people are not against continental Europe, but to be fair a large section of them (as in other E.U. countries) do have misgivings about the E.U.
Complain about this comment
Alice (248): I was thinking about the question you pose; why 16 after communism, life in Russia is still tougher than in distant days of the USSR. I don?t know Russia very well (only spent 36 hours there in all my life) so all I can comment about is the image of Russia rather than the reality. I don?t believe Russians (or anybody else) can be over-educated though. It seems more likely to me the skilled workers are just not yet connected properly to the global economy so the skills are not being used in the most productive way. I was thinking about the overseas investment that I can see from the keyhole perspective of the company I work for. Of a TV advertisement of ours not about company or products but a vision of the wonderful diverse colourful globalised world that we live in, shot with scenes from London, Toronto, Shanghai, Rio, etc. featuring Buddhist monks, Hindu weddings and Chinese dancers; but no sign of Russians. Why has Russia been airbrushed from this commercial image of the future when China and India feature so prominently?
I think part of the answer is that Russia is making no real effort to market itself in the West as a good place to invest. About 3 years ago I was in Bangalore. They were tidying the place up (no small job) because Putin was coming to visit to learn about the success story. But why was Putin there rather in the West selling the advantages of the Russian skilled workforce? He almost gives the impression that he thinks that the Russian shop is now 'open for business' and could not understand why the customers were going to Bangalore instead. Yet his own actions seem to undermine the image of Russia as a safe place to invest. When he causes problems for BP he sends out a strong signal that Russia is a place where you can lose your shirt. It reminds people of the Iranian revolution when the BP investment was nationalised by the Ayatollahs.
Russia would have to work hard to turn around this image. It would require consistently subordinating political goals (rebuilding sphere of influence, etc.) to economic ones but the signs (talk of using energy as political weapon, etc.) are that Russia politicians are not prepared to do this, at least not yet.
Complain about this comment
To threnodio (251) and jordanbasset (254):
About Iraq using euro in its oil trade:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro
The fact of the matter is that in 2000 Iraq started to trade its oil in euros, and after the invasion Iraqi oil trade was reverted back to dollars. That is a fact. US arranged the Iraq war, it arranged with its allies evidence about WMDs, it used that as an excuse to invade and occupy Iraq, it reverted Iraq oil trade back to dollars and and it sent a strong message on other Gulf states on not to trade with euro. You can't deny that this didn't happen!
The thing about euro is that its going to become a leading reserve currency. For all its existence it has become stronger and its continuing in this trajectory even without being used in oil and raw material trade.
If we look at petroeuro it would be tremendously beneficial to oil producers. Now what you got is US that not only has huge government deficits but huge trade deficits and there is no sign on those coming down. What is happening is that US is printing more and more dollars to cover its expenses, by doing that its diluting the value of dollar and thus inflicting losses to major holders of dollars and dollar nominated bonds. If oil is not gradually started to be traded in euros what we will have in the end is the total collapse of dollar and a major disturbance in world economy.
Now if we look at the reason why oil and raw materials in overall are not traded in euros is the Iraq war. Iraq started to trade oil with euros and what it got was 'liberation' by the US. The occupation of Iraq and the increased presence of US military in the Gulf region has meant that no other government doesn't dare to start trading oil with euro. In case of Saudi-Arabia the Al-Saud regime would collapse in overnight if US would deny its support for the regime.
If we go back to 2003 and politics around the time, its very obvious that France and Germany both understood very well what the intent of the US was and they objected the best they could. You should remember that even France and Germany were against the war they couldn't actively sabotage US because their long term trade and political relationships. You should also remember that the US waged information war at the time, do remember the whole Freedom Fries debacle and split of Europe to old Europe and new Europe, and that was just the top of iceberg.
I would also like to point out that your logic on count of letting Eurozone countries to participate in Iraq war doesn't hold ground, as US dictated how the war went and what decisions would be made after the war, with or without some Eurozone countries participating to Iraq war and occupation, US would do the decision to stop trading oil with euro and revert back to US dollar. The only way for France and Germany to stop Iraq going back to dollars was to prevent US invading and occupying Iraq, this essentially they failed to do.
When I'm looking at the Iraq war, there is no denying that this was a conspiracy against Euro and Eurozone, the facts, the results of the war speak for it. Now if Iraq would have continued to trade oil with euro even after the war, then I would have no point, but this was not the case.
Now if go to the question of the quilt of the UK, on where to lay the blame, then I just can't lay that all on Blair or his cabinet. What you have to recognize is that the Blair government was elected by the UK electorate, it represented them, besides that we should remember that the government is assisted and largely guided by civil services, if civil services would have not been pro war they would have guided UK on not to take part on the war. What I'm seeing and sensing is systematic failure that produces anti-European policies and harms common European interests. Having petroeuro is one of the vital interests of EU and Eurozone and that was grossly violated by the US and UK lead war. Real harm was caused and questions on why UK went along have to be presented. Why US is more important to UK than the success of Europe is essentially the question.
Complain about this comment
To WebAliceinwonderland (249):
This sounds naive I know, but the reason on why governments, especially first world governments, don't shot themselves on leg, is that they are not supposed to do that.
"No worries! The government is in here! We will save the day!"
What governments are supposed to do is to consult for facts, reproduce different scenarios, produce economical and political models regarding policy decisions. In example concerning Iraq war our economic research institute, ETLA, calculated before the Iraq war the Eurozone would suffer economically from the war and from the rise of oil prices. It's just incomprehensible on government not doing its due diligence. Even small countries like mines do computer ran statistical simulations on their decisions regarding taxation or economic policies before making the decisions, so that should mean that bigger countries should make their decision even better!
PS. Do you have snow in St. Petersburg? We just got the first snow in the ground, approx 5 to 8 cm of snow in the ground. Just horror! Pure horror!
Complain about this comment
Jukka I would love to live in your world. But answer me one question, if the U.K. Government were involved in,a conspiracy to to damage the E.U. why did they ratify the Lisbon Treaty against the will of it's people and in direct contravention of a promise it had made to those people. By doing so it has lost electoral support.
If it really wants to damage the E.U. it could do so much more effectively than waging war. It makes no sense for the U.K. or U.S. to try and destablise the euro, as such a destabilising effect wopuld rebound on their own economies. We are all interconnected economically, when all coubntries are doing well the world prospers. If a significant collection of countries start to sufer economically that has a knock on efect on all others and all suffer. Your arguments are nonsense.
Complain about this comment
To jordanbasset (258):
No. What the Iraq decision on trading oil with euro and the prospect of other countries such as Iran and the Gulf states to also trade with euro was going to destabilize the US dollar. The damage of Iraq war, of US and UK stopping the introduction of euro as an oil trading currency was largely potential costs. The Iraq war stopped and prevented the rapid destabilization of US dollar, to Euro and Eurozone it didn't have large current effects but what did it have was large potential costs.
Now I don't know how UK behavior can explained, but what I do know is that UK went along with the Iraq war and UK has had twofold relationship with the rest of the Europe, going along but doing it reluctantly.
Complain about this comment
Re post 259, Jukka some facts may help here -
The dollar lost 19 percent of its value against the euro during 2003 with one-fourth of this loss occurring in December2003.
During this time the dollar showed weakness against other currencies as well, including the British pound. The euro rose steadily in value, stopping just short of $1.29 on January 13, 2004. So if the U,S went to war to try and secure a strong dollar and therefore a weaker euro they failed miserably.
What is most interesting at this point, Jean Claude Trichet, European Central Bank (ECB) president, signaled mounting concern over the euro?s rapid rise by saying ?brutal moves? in the dollar and ?excessive exchange rate volatility were not welcome and not appropriate? and that Europe?s policy makers were concerned. His remarks and those of other European officials triggered a sharp fall in the euro.
So far from the U.S trying to stop the euro becoming a major curency the E.U.'s own leaders were trying to talk it down as it's strength against the dollar was hitting the E.U. financially.
Complain about this comment
To jordanbasset (260):
No, you are mixing two things, currency exchange rates and foreign currency reserve levels. Currency exchange rates and foreign currency reserve levels are not fixed together. Case in point, in 1999 euro hold 18,14% of currency reserves with currency rate of 1,1591 dollars to 1 euro, in Q2/2008 euro hold 26,99% of currency reserves and 1.5562 dollars to 1 euro. That is euro dollar currency rate going up 34% and currency levels going up 48%. If you look closer and in more details to different currency rates and reserve levels you can quickly see that these two just don't go hand in hand.
Reserve currency levels are largely affected by trust people and governments have towards the currency. In case of euro there is more trust than can be expressed largely due to US invasion and the threat it created against oil producing countries on introducing euro.
Complain about this comment
#259 Jukka Rohila
Yours is an entertaining conspiracy theory but doesn't really hold much water. The reasons Tony Blair (supported by Parliament) joined the US in the Iraq invasion many have been the wrong reasons, but they had nothing to do with destabilising the Euro. Blair (unlike Gordon Brown) was always fairly keen on joining the Euro, though I doubt whether he would have had public support for such a move. Some people in the UK have only just recovered from currency decimalisation in 1971.
Complain about this comment
Re post 261, you accept then that the Iraq war in 2003 had a destabilising effect on the Dollar exchane rate when compared to the euro. This was perfectly predictable as when countries get involved in war this is an inevitable consequence.
So the U.S. went to war knowing it was likely to adversely effect their currency exchange rate and have a postive effect on the euro exchange rate. Hardly a sound plan to destabilise the euro and increase the power of the dollar.
Are you really saying they went to war to increase reserves held in the dollar and consequently reduce those reserves held in the EURO - do not want to be harsh but to suggest the Bush Government was that clever is a struggle for me.
Also from your own figures at post 247 the currency reseves held in euros grew during the second quarter of 2003 (April to June 2003). The Iraq war begin in March 2003, so again the euro appeared to bebefit from the war.
Yes there was a slight dip in 2004, but it has since grown again (from your own figures) I really do not know how you can think the facts possibly fit your conspiracy scenario.
Currency exchange rates and reserves change for all sorts of reason, to try and manipulate either by waging war is crazy.
George Bush capable of many things, this is not one of them - get real
Complain about this comment
To jordanbasset (263):
The US at the time faced two possibilities 1) euro becoming used more at oil trade thus putting US dollar in danger of collapse or 2) start war and print more money to pay it.
What you have to understand that this is not about currency exchange rates, this is about reserve currency levels and on what currency is used in international trade.
Currently the situation is that dollars are used in the international trade. If an Eurozone company buys oil from middle east, it has to buy the oil in dollars, so it exchanges euros to dollars and pays with them to their supplier. Now when the supplier wants to buy stuff from Eurozone they again pay with dollars that the Eurozone company has to exchange to euros. What this whole process makes is to tie up huge amounts of US dollars just to enable trade between to countries.
Okey so what does the US benefit on its currency being used as trading currency? By the rest of the world using dollars those dollars are away from US, in other words they don't cause inflation in the US. As the inflation of printing new dollars are externalized to rest of the world, US can print more and more dollars to pay its bills. Essentially US is importing oil and consumables and exporting dollars.
So what is the thing with Euro? Well if countries start to trade directly with euro, the demand for dollars go done and US ability to just print dollars and externalize its inflation decreases. What that means is that the US can't anymore finance its deficits just by printing new dollars and that means a hard and quick hit to US economy. Iraq moving to euro and benefiting from using it made it an example that other oil producing countries could follow, to prevent the collapse of US dollar as reserve currency US had invade Iraq and make it an example to other oil producing countries on not even considering changing away from US dollars.
You may think that Bush doesn't have intellectual capability for these kinds of things, but the US government and its agencies have the capability. Countries have interests and regardless of their leaders they will pursue them. For US having the dollar as leading international reserve currency is vital as its the way how it finances its private consume and its military hegemony.
Complain about this comment
Jukka: I do not think the UK can decide major issues like Iraq by running the economic numbers through a computer. Do we really want dictators to get away with anything? If not then somebody has to stop them and only a few countries have both the means and inclination to stop them. The difficulty for the US is when to intervene in these issues. The top dog in the world is always going to attract the criticism of those envious of its power, but equally has unique capability to use that power for good. If we assume that the UK also shares an interest in keeping the world a halfway decent place, then it makes sense to support the only Great Power (USA) that seems to give a dam about that too?
I see no reason to believe that France has some innate virtue that means she should always be followed on matters of foreign policy. Indeed I would say quite the opposite as she (and Russia) has a track record of acting opportunistically on these issues in pursuit of short-term national gain (e.g. UN 'oil for food' program, etc.). Germany unfortunately has tended to stick its head in the sand and try to pretend the problems do not exist unless so close to home that it cannot be ignored.
Tony Blair set out his thinking in a 1999 speech (see key section below). Even if the cases he was considering (Bosnia , Iraq ) are behind us now, the key question of ?when is it legitimate to intervene in other peoples conflicts? is bound to re-occur at some time in the future ( Iran?, Zimbabwe?). Rather than inventing conspiracy theories about petro-euros would it not be better to ask yourself if you can provide a batter answer than Tony Blair as to when it is legitimate to intervene in other countries conflicts? I would say he was not so wrong when talking about the issue in his 1999 speech, but perhaps his success in applying this in Bosnia led him to be too interventionist when it came to Iraq.
I try to answer these questions the negative way. i.e. under what circumstances would I want other powers to intervene in my country? If you had (i) a Mugabe rigging the elections in Helsinki, or (ii) a Sadaam Husein dropping poison gas on your countrymen (which i accept he was not still doing by 2003), would you want an external power to intervene? Would you be talking about 'petro-euros' then?
----------- Blair 'Chicago Speech' 1999 -------
The most pressing foreign policy problem we face is to identify the circumstances in which we should get actively involved in other people's conflicts. Non-interference has long been considered an important principle of international order. And it is not one we would want to jettison too readily. One state should not feel it has the right to change the political system of another or forment subversion or seize pieces of territory to which it feels it should have some claim. But the principle of non-interference must be qualified in important respects. Acts of genocide can never be a purely internal matter. When oppression produces massive flows of refugees which unsettle neighbouring countries, then they can properly be described as 'threats to international peace and security'. When regimes are based on minority rule they lose legitimacy - look at South Africa .
Looking around the world there are many regimes that are undemocratic and engaged in barbarous acts. If we wanted to right every wrong that we see in the modern world then we would do little else than intervene in the affairs of other countries. We would not be able to cope. So how do we decide when and whether to intervene? I think we need to bear in mind five major considerations.
First, are we sure of our case? War is an imperfect instrument for righting humanitarian distress, but armed force is sometimes the only means of dealing with dictators. Second, have we exhausted all diplomatic options? We should always give peace every chance, as we have in the case of Kosovo. Third, on the basis of a practical assessment of the situation, are there military operations we can sensibly and prudently undertake? Fourth, are we prepared for the long term? In past we talked too much of exit strategies. But having made a commitment we cannot simply walk away once the fight is over; better to stay with moderate numbers of troops than return for repeat performances with large numbers. And finally, do we have national interests involved? The mass expulsion of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo demanded the notice of the rest of the world. But it does make a difference that this is taking place in such a combustible part of Europe . I am not suggesting that these are absolute tests. But they are the kind of issues we need to think about in deciding in the future when and whether we will intervene.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/politics/blair.htm
Complain about this comment
Jukka this will be my last post on this subject. Firstly please reread all the proceeding posts on this subject from all contributors(as I have just done) Having done that ask a question, could what you think be right, let's make it even easier, is it likely to be right?
One last time, firstly currency excahnges and currency reserves are linked by a cause and effect mechanism. If your currency appears strong and stable, perferably increasing in value a little, your reserves will go up. The reason for this is that other countries see this and think, if we invest our money in that currency we wil not lose money, if anything it will rise in value. As more reserves pour in to the currency, the exchange rate also increases. A simple case of supply and demand, people sell one currency to buy another. This is simplistic but basically what happens. By going to war the U.S would have been aware it was likely to have a nagative effect on their currency.
Now re buying oil in dollars rather than euros, this does not allow the U.S. to print more dollars. Basic economics would come into play. Inflation would increase, the dollar would be devalued and the economy would be badly hit. In many ways it is similar to what has caused this recession, there was excessive borrowing, (has same effect of printing dollars) causing excessive demand which has inflationary effects and the unfortunate consequences of that.
To suggest the fact that oil being traded in dollars would some how avoid that effect is nonsense.
I am sure you will come back but I will not make any more replies on this subject. But I would ask you to try and think back to 2003, do you honestly think the Bush Government, the U.K. Government and Newscorp were involved in the conspiracy you allege?
Complain about this comment
To jordanbasset (266):
The oil producing states alongside with China and Japan very well know the inflationary effect of US printing dollars more and more, they prevents this only by buying US Federal Governments bonds more and more in a hope that US someday reverses its direction of printing more and more to finance its ever increasing government and trade deficits.
When I look back to 2003, yes, I do think that at least US governments along side with US neo-conservatives including Rupert Murdoch were engaged in a conspiracy to wage war against Iraq in an attempt to stop euro becoming alternative to US dollar. What I don't know which part Blair or the UK government played. France and Germany did know the intention of the US government, so should have UK.
The Iraq war was purely for monetary reason, it was for reasons of economic conquest.
To Freeborn-John (265):
You are looking this issue from completely wrong angle...
Conflicts of economic interests create conflicts of political interests which in the end create military conflicts.
You may try to explain actions of Blair and his government via moral or ideals, but in the end of the day everything is about economy. If the UK government didn't understand economic effects of their actions then they were not doing their jobs very well.
If we look the situation in Iraq we have to ask few questions, why Iraq and why then? If you say that iraq had to be 'liberated' because of WMDs then you are in shaky ground as all those evidences that were used to drive US and UK in war were completely bogus, even in the day there were big doubts about allegations leveled against Iraq. If you say that Iraq had to be 'liberated' because Iraq was a dictatorship then why Iraq, why not North-Korea, and why then? The thing is that Iraq was about oil, it was about what currency is used in international oil trade, nothing else, nothing more.
Now if you continue insist that the invasion was because of reasons of moral then with that logic the moral crusaders should have enough morality to come out and face prosecution in Hague International Human Rights court for waging war of aggression, and not just Blair but the whole cabinet and military and intelligence community leaders.
Plain and simple, the Iraq was all about economic conquest. No amount of weasel wording will never sweep that aside.
Complain about this comment
#264 - Jukka_Rohila
I have been away on business but jordanbasset and Freeborn_John have expressed my view probably better than I would have done.
I would add one other thing.
In #256, you write:
"Now if go to the question of the quilt of the UK, on where to lay the blame, then I just can't lay that all on Blair or his cabinet. What you have to recognize is that the Blair government was elected by the UK electorate, it represented them . . ."
The Gulf War was launched in 2003. The previous general election was in June 2001. Would you mind telling me how on earth the British people were supposed to know that the government were going to go to war two years later when they voted the way they did?
Complain about this comment
To threnodio (268):
When you vote for a representative, you vote for him of her world view and valuations, the world view and attitudes of those in power in 2003 and those in parliament were the kind of that allowed UK in first place to ally with the US against Iraq, what allowed UK to place troops in preparation of invasion and occupation of Iraq. Thus in democracy the people should be held at least into some point accountable on the deeds of their representatives.
Complain about this comment
Re postt 267, Jukka, promise this is my last post on this subject.
Others have said on this subject that the Iraq war was about liberating a country from a tyranical dictator who murdered thousands of his people. I can understand that.
More cynical people may say it was about securing oil supplies for the west, I can even understand that.
What I cannot understand is your absurd suggestion hat it was to benefit the dollar and U.S. economy by undermining the euro as a main trading currency. It is nonsense.
Complain about this comment
Jukka -
I have also caught up with the news and note that the CFP is to be amended to 'reduce mortality rates' - in other words stop chucking dead fish back in the sea and pretending they were never caught and the CAP is to be reorganised, initially with dairy production,creating a freer market, reducing subsidies and bring more land back into production. All things that the UK has been arguing for.
A bit of common sense at last or another wicked British plot?
Complain about this comment
Jukka, there is a simple practical test to try