German identity angst
Go into any high street bookshop in Britain and the European history section will groan under the weight of books about the Nazi era. Most of the time you will look in vain for something on Bismarck or Brandt. (If you are lucky there might be a copy of the excellent Iron Kingdom, by Christopher Clark, about the rise and fall of Prussia.)
Of course the Third Reich and World War II are an exceptionally important part of Germany's past. But generations afterwards many British, whistling the theme from The Dambusters, seem happy to define their relationship to Europe's biggest country solely through this prism. The Fawlty Towers "don't mention the war" episode was so brilliant because it was about a British, not a German, collective psychosis. But that I have written about elsewhere. 
So how should we see modern Germany and how do the Germans see themselves?
One seasoned diplomatic observer suggested to me that Germans defined themselves by pride in their prestigious manufactured goods. Not fashionable clothes or designer furniture, but complex high-end technology, cars and audio equipment. I think he's hit on something particularly with the love affair with big, black fast cars.
It is pride in a Germany that makes the best in the world, things that make life comfortable and cosy.
German efficiency is a cliche of course, but it is also true. You get bumblers and bungling everywhere, but on the whole if Germans say they will do something, it will be done with the minimum of fuss or performance. Meetings run to time, and mistakes are corrected.
But Germany's own relationship with its past is crucial, however I might moan about British bookshops.
In Berlin it's the builders who lay the ghosts by obliterating the past. It was of course once the capital of a region and a country - Prussia, itself wiped off the map, not just by history, but by an Allied occupation law of 1947.
I stand on a bridge in the drizzle looking at four big grey structures, like tower blocks stripped back to the raw concrete - all that remains of the parliament of communist East Germany. Many wanted it to remain as a monument, but even these impressively sombre corner posts will be torn down in a few months.
Where Hitler's bunker once stood there are flats, side street parking and a notice with a fairly detailed map about the complex. There is more of the Wall left, but not a lot of fuss is made about it. But there is also a fascination with the past, a desire to pick at the wounds. 
A film has just come out about the Baader-Meinhof gang, the left-wing terrorists who murdered more than 30 people in the 1970s. It is based on a book by Stefan Aust, who covered the events at the time. The film is controversial and has been condemned by the children of some of the killers' victims, but he says it gets better on every showing. He's seen it seven times.
I asked him what Germany's relationship with its past meant today. "You never get rid of that. Everything that happens in this country we compare to the German past, to the Nazi dictatorship. Germans are much more aware of their past than most other countries in the world. And that is at least one thing that is good, coming out of such a terrible past."
Why is that good? I wonder. "We are very sceptical about things, so we are sceptical when people admire politicians, we're sceptical about mass movements, we are very critical about what the police do, what the judicial system does. I think you have to think about your past to get rid of it."
We talk about the German attitude to war. Before 1999 no member of the German armed forces served abroad. Now they are the third-largest force in Afghanistan, although many allies query their wholehearted commitment.
"When Germany has to play a role in a war it is a terrible thing, and we don't make decisions like that very easily, because of everything that happened. So we were very sceptical about the Iraq war because we knew what it was to lose a war. When you start a war it is very important to win it. Right now it is very hard to see how we win the war in Afghanistan," Aust says.
Entering Berlin's Humboldt University, where Germany's next generation are being educated, the past is present. In the rather grand lobby the first thing you see, in gold letters on a background of brown and white marble, is a quote from Karl Marx, the one about philosophers having to change the world, not just describe it.
Set out in this entrance hall is a temporary exhibition, large black-and-white photographs of the Nazi attacks on Jewish business: the words "Jude! Jude! Jude!" scrawled across shop fronts make me shiver.
Two students, Bastian (24) and Florian (25), who are both studying history and want to be teachers, tell me things are changing. Bastian says: "We are the first generation who thinks rationally about the National Socialism. 
"The first generation in the 1950s denied everything, our parents accepted everything, accepted the guilt and the responsibility, but we are in the middle thinking about the consequences, but we aren't feeling guilty any more. Yeah, we're the first rationals."
Florian adds: "We're the first generation as well who has grown up with a united Germany. I was six years old when the Wall came down and that is history. I was one of the woodpeckers at the wall, there was small me with a hammer - I didn't do much damage of course."
How does that mean they see Germany's place in the world now? "Our military presence in Afghanistan is a joke and will be for a long time, but that will change. I am very torn: I think we should accept responsibility but people are getting killed, sons die, mums cry. It's an ugly business."
"We're still divided," says Florian. "On one side we see
the responsibility Germany has to have in the world but we still are saying 'yes and no'. It's something we can do but shouldn't do."
But what about the broader question, what it means to be German now? Bastian says: "What does it mean to drink beer and love football? I don't know - I drink coke and love basketball. I don't know what it means to be German. I am Berlin, born here, I love this city but I don't know anything about being German."
Florian says: "I think there is no special thing about being German, it's just something written on your ID card." But he says during the 2006 World Cup things did change. "That's the only time we've had something like that. It's only during huge sports events that you see Germany as a nation: united in front of the television or something. You could see people wearing our flag, knotted around their necks, but if you do it and there is nothing like soccer around, Jesus: don't, that's a sin. Patriotism isn't considered a bad thing any more but you'd be considered a weirdo."
Perhaps these students are not the end of the process and it will take another generation or two before the past cease to haunt Germany. But I am beginning to see that a sort of national humility is a key part of the German soul. The past has made Germans reluctant to boast or strut.
When I said something to one businessman about Germany being the most powerful, important nation in Europe, he was reluctant to agree. "It is not for us to say that. You don't stir your own soup." If this is a German saying it's a rather odd one: clearly most people do. But you see what he means.
The same goes for the German language. The French are prickly if their language is not used at the top table or is slighted in any way. And while English is in a very dominant position I have not doubt at all we would be very defensive if it wasn't. But I have been at EU news conferences given by Austrians and Germans and they did not bat an eyelid about speaking in English.
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I am an Irishman who happily lived and worked in Germany for some years in the 80s and 90s. However, since I bagan working in the Balkans, I found that most Germans I met there have an intense dislike of the Serbs.
I thought this dislike surely couldn't stem solely from the fact that the Germans fought against the Serbs in the two World Wars. Franco-German relations are fine today, for example, so what is the root of this anti-Serb bias or even often, psychosis?
I have witnessed the nasty antics of some German NATO troops in the Serb enclaves in Kosovoi Metohija and I know that Germany does have a sinister hidden agenda in the Western Balkans.
I don't know where this is going to lead but I am watching.
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"But I have been at EU news conferences given by Austrians and Germans and they did not bat an eyelid about speaking in English."
The Chinese and Indians discovered thousands of years ago that to do good business, you learnt to speak the other people's language(s) !! So did the Arabs !! Huge maritime fortunes were founded on being able to dicker in the other person's language.
It is only the Brits who seem to have difficulty speaking and using another language !!
THe Germans want to do international business, so they use the international business language. I met a young (26ish) German guy on holiday and found that he works in Shanghai and spoke good Mandarin and excellent English !! That's the way to do good business !!
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loojeanmacloo
I am glad that you are keeping an eye on Nato troops in the Serbian parts of Kosovo.
Northern Kosovo is entitled to be free of the rest of Kosovo just as the UK is entitled to be free of the rest of Europe. British troops, police and judges should not be deployed in Northern Kosovo. The Serbs in the enclave surrounded by Albanian Kosovo have a right to be protected. I don't mind British troops being deployed there.
If you see any ill deeds then a bit of video evidence would be a good thing.
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Ticape!
1) Do you accept that the Brits are entitled to a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?
2) Do you accept that there will be loads of trouble if we don't get one?
3) Have you protested in your country about the us Brits being denied our rights? Have you asked your government to support the democratic rights of downtrodden Brits?
4) If you are not Irish, have you demanded a referendum in your country?
5) Do you accept that it is hypercritical of the "EU" to complain about the treatment of dissidents in Cuba when we Brits are being treated thus?
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This business of the German nation, as a whole, being very 'efficient'.
If you read the history of World War II as a war of 'efficiencies' then Germany's inefficiencies contributed vastly to her defeat.
For example, the Russians, not highly regarded for their efficiency, basically produced one very good tank, and kept on producing it, with slight modifcations, throughout the war. Germany, on the other hand, kept trying new, and not necessarily better designs, which gave their logistics and supply troops the almost impossible task of keeping these tanks on the battlefield.
Similarly, with their airforce, they produced a multiplicity of engines, many of which were very unreliable. They had no 4 engine bomber worthy of the name, except perhaps the F-W Kondor, which was not very reliable and anyway a heavily modified passenger aircraft.
Goering and his staff said they could supply the troops in Stalingrad with enough food by air, not realising that a ton of food takes up a lot more space than a ton of high explosive.
When the whole of their aircraft industry was screaming out for aluminium they continued to manufacture green houses and ladders with the stuff.
More recently, and forgive me my memory fails me a little, didn't a German shipyard win a tender to refit, I think it was the QE2, and wasn't the ship late, and didn't have to leave with shipyard workers on board and then it breakdown Maybe it was't the QE2 but an equally famous ship.
I suspect that the most efficient business in Germany is propaganda; it has the rest of the world believing that Germany is incredibly efficient while the rest of us just bumble through.
And like all propaganda should be taken with a pinch of salt.
When I was a very little boy, living in what is now a suburb of Liverpool, a favourite expression was, 'Oh yeah, who told you that then?' said with ineffable scorn.
Perhaps we should re-learn it?
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How is it, that no matter what the topic, there are post from 'anti' European Union contributors?
And Suffolkboy2, 'hypercritical'? It's not the same as 'hypocritical' and just for once get off your very high hobby horse.
Please.
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I am a Scot who was born in West Berlin and, as such, I have an affinity with the Germans, even though my Grandfather was gassed in the first world war and my uncle was killed at Dunkirk in the second world war running away from the Germans.
I think the Germans should get over this angst that they have about the last two world wars. I am not talking about the Nazis here but about the German people. (It should not be forgotten that there were many Brits who served with the Nazis during the second world war and just prior the outbreak of the second world war there was a large fascist movement in the UK under Mosley.) Remember that the UK government declared war on Germany and not the other way around. Germany, for whatever reason, did not want war against the UK, or for that matter, France. They wanted to take their lands back in the east which was taken off them after the first world war. Their aim, after that, was to move eastwards not west. Now, I am not condoning what they did to the civilian populations in the east, or even to the populations in the west, but this should be taken in context. After all, the first concentration camps were built by the British in South Africa to house the Boers and we say nothing about the deaths that we caused in those camps. You don't get an empire by being nice and Britain had the world's largest empire at that time.
The ordinary German people should get over this self pity. The vast majority weren't even born at the time of the second world war.
As to the language; English is a German language with a huge mixture of the latin languages.
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Awww....
Mark,
if you drop by Hamburg again, I'd like to offer you a beer (it could even be a pint, though the local stuff usually comes in half-litres).
And, as a half American-half Italian who has lived in Germany for over a decade, I could give you a good idea about the good and bad (not that many) sides of of living here.
Being an English teacher, I've often seen the insides of companies: The efficiency myth is mostly that, though reliability (as in being well-qualified and getting the job done, at least ultimately) is generally the rule.
Cheers!
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I'not German, I'm a proud Albanian and my judgment can not be bias in anyway however I think it is commen sens for any one to respect and appriciate his own idendity. German today should be proud for being German like every one else in this world does. Germany is a free country where rule of low and human rights are the foundation of entire society, on top of this Germany is the biggest contributor to freedom and prosperity in Europe and East Europe. Germans should be proud of themselfs.
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To paraphrase LecNeli @ #9 (with some minor changes!) :o)
I am not German, I'm an Englishman and my judgment can be biased in every way . . .
But I entirely agree with the rest of LecNeli's comment!
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# 9 LecNeli
Well said.
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Dear Mark,
as a German, thanks for this article, though I am not sure what exactly you are trying to say.
Let me too correct you on one important fact: The first time German Soldiers were deployed abroad was the UN Mission in Cambodia in 1992. After that it was on a bigger scale the UN Mission in Somalia 1993-1995.
The next bigger step was the involvement in the stability forces in Bosnia from 1995 onwards.
1999 is an exception because it was the first time since 1938 that the Germany Army participated an attacking war and without UN Approval.
Anyway I agree with you that Germany is quite a livable country. Married to a wonderful British woman she enjoys living here in Berlin.
If it is yet a lovable country, we shall see. There are many developments, the World Cup 2006 was major - in the respect that we actually started liking our country...
But one last thing, you will rarely find a German that will tell you outright, "we are good, the biggest economy, etc".
We enjoy other nations saying it about us though.
cheers
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gedguy2 @ #7
(Slightly tongue in cheek)
"I am a Scot who was born in West Berlin"
I am willing to widen the River Tweed with my bucket and spade to help you get independence but, West Berlin?
Not another blooming wall! LOL
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To be German means to tell the truth about your history and thereby set an example to others, including ourselves (the British) who got rich peddling class A drugs to East Asia.
I teach East Asian students and whenever the subject of Japan's failure to face its history is brought up, I use Germany as the shining, maybe unique, example. Germans looking for a mission need look no further.
Incidentally, how is that in English we have no equivalent of 'Francophile'? We seem to admire the Germans for their honest industriousness: if only we made those big black BMWs.
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WWII is over.
It's ok for you to be proud to be German again, you are 2 generations removed from the sins that were committed during that conflict.
The world is a troubled place, I would like to see a strong Germany out there actively engaged in the world.
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Weiminfuwu -
"Incidentally, how is that in English we have no equivalent of 'Francophile'? We seem to admire the Germans for their honest industriousness: if only we made those big black BMWs."
I believe the word you are looking for is "Teutonophile". It's true, to hear it is exceedingly rare in English - though after lving in Germany for the past 4 years I have found that I am becoming a huge fan of Germany (I still don't like football/soccer).
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Weiminfuwu @ #14
As a matter of interest, how much of the money made from the opium trade with the Chinese actually got back to the British Exchequor do you think?
I don't deny that British ex-Patriots who left the shores of Britain took their missionary zeal, criminality and other perversions to foreign shores (Heck, Thailand has a problem with our Paedophiles even today!) but I am not sure that the individual britons and their crimes are necessarily a historic crime of the British Nation or that the Opium Drug trade was of actual benefit to ALL of the British?
As regards the Far East, the Portuguese, French, Dutch and British all had a hand in exploiting the Asian peoples and their lands.
I just question whether, if the exploitation was to the benefit of Britain as your comment implies, why there were slums, workhouse and poverty back in Britain whilst this was all going on.
If you teach East Asian students, I sincerely hope your stereotyping of the Far-East emigrant British is not how you portray ALL of the British people. Or perhaps you do?
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Nice article, Mark.
I have great respect for Germany and the German people - especially for the way recent generations have shouldered the responsibility of what happened in the awful times of the 1930s and 40s and rebuilt themselves and their country as a democratic, law abiding and prosperous nation.
Sure, Germany and the Germans are not perfect - but then who is?
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# 13 Menedemus
My father was in the Black Watch at the time that I was born there, defending the copious amounts of British beer from the Russian communist hordes. I believe it was in the British army's standing orders that one had to imbibe their own weight in beer per day.
As to supporting our bid for independence...I just might keep you to that offer.
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I am not German but I have been living here for pretty much all my life and one thing that I can't escape is that whenever I go abroad and say I'm from Germany people immediately start talking about World War II. I understand it is part of Germany's past but it does not define the German culture. People have moved on and especially the younger generation gets tired over hearing about WWII cos it happened long before we have been born and yes, we realise it is a very serious matter, but it does not apply to our society today. Why do people not constantly connotate slavery and rascism with the USA/ Britain or fascism with Italy? We are permanently reminded of Germany and this very part of its ugly past but other countries seem to rub this fact in all the time. I hope that people will one day get over this.
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This is a reply to Gedguy2, you hold one of the biggest misconceptions in history when you say that the brits opened the first concentration camps. WE WERE NOT, it was an idea we borrowed from the Americans during their war with spain in 1898, the war lasted something like a hundred days and they developed the idea of herding the conquered people together in enclosed areas to be guarded so they could not attack the american rear, the Brits saw this and copied the idea to use against the Boers.
One of the biggest crimes Britain made was not revealing in were the idea came from believing Britain could not be criticised for anything, hence misguided people like you and most of the world believe the Brits opened the first concentration camp, please read your history.
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The German track record on accepting history as it happened is much better than British and French track records.
The government sanctioned colonialists, murderers, drug peddlers, not to forget the Christianity sanctioned racists, from Britain and France destroyed, looted, raped and plundered civilizations in India, Africa and the Far East and contributed heavily to the exploitation by growing and dumping Opium. Till date, the truth is NOT accepted by the British & French government or the people. Instead you get doctored history published and all criminal acts by the British/French people and governments cleverly omitted or nicely disguised. In this regard, the Germans come out on top of nealy all Europeans.
I have more respect for Germans than I have for the British or French..
Luxembourg based Indian
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Thanks for that gauthamgg, what about what Germany did in Africa, i'll leave you to read up on that
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I have lived in Germany and found that in general the people now prefer to be 'nationalistic' about 'Europe' (more specifically the EU) rather than of Germany as a nation state. They remain naturally proud of their cultural and regional characteristics.
Look at German yachts abroad; many now use an EU flag with only a very small German tricolour in the corner.
It could be that this is merely the replacement of the older German nationalism with a newer, 'politically correct' acceptable version.
That said, how 'nationalistic' are individuals in most other countries? There are often aspects of the past and of present policy that alienate individuals from the nation of their 'citizenship'.
Britain's 2003 crime of aggression was not supported by many Britons and I doubt that Germany's 1939 crime of aggression was supported by as many Germans as is sometimes supposed. Both had the same 'pre-emptive self-defence' justification and both were based on false information 'cooked up' by populist Governments.
The Germans can at least take comfort that their criminals were punished.
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Sorry, everyone knows that German cars have to be silver, although black is an acceptable second place, usually preferred for diplomats (and press).
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The only purpose of history is to learn from it.
As to my personal history...I lived in Germany as a teenager and it was a very enjoyable period of my life.
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Patriotism isn't considered a bad thing any more
If true, that's a pity. We should be asking Germans to teach us to stop thinking our countries are special, instead of encouraging them back into our own bad ways.
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Why is it that we've so easily forgiven a country which started two world wars within 25 years of each other? World wars which are in living memory, world wars which killed 70million+ combined?
Why is it for example that the left wing still sneer at white South Africans? where is the forgiveness there?
Why is it that Germany's genocide against the Jews has been forgiven, but the re-establishment of Israel is still a major problem for the let wing in particular?
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I agree with Copper Bottom, but the case with the Yachts is true also for other countries like Greece, Italy etc.
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It would be an exaggeration to say that the history of Germany and the Continent could be reduced to the ideas of three Prussians (Marx, Fichte and Wilhelm von Humboldt), but I will say it anyway and that only one of them has any relevance to the future.
Isaiah Berlin said that the questions "how far does government interfere with me" and "who governs me" are logically distinct. But once a certain threshold is crossed then we (the people) do care who governs us and want to take part in the shaping of that government and its policies. This threshold then is also that which should delimit the competence of international bureaucracies over whom we have no real control. Wilhelm von Humboldt was the originator of the best answer as to where that threshold lies.
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At 10:44am on 01 Nov 2008, Copper_bottom wrote:
"I have lived in Germany and found that in general the people now prefer to be 'nationalistic' about 'Europe' (more specifically the EU) rather than of Germany as a nation state. They remain naturally proud of their cultural and regional characteristics.
Look at German yachts abroad; many now use an EU flag with only a very small German tricolour in the corner".
But is it all that surprising? After all the Nazis were also for a European Union and succeed in uniting Europe under their control albeit for a very short time. Nazi crimes and policies aside, the only other difference between Europe united under the Nazis and the European Union today is that Britain is in it.
In establishing and expanding the European Union & playing a major role in it, Germany seems to have succeeded by economic means what it failed to achieve by military ones on the previous attempt.
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I live in Berlin now but am Jewish and from California. A child of immigrants - a large part of my family was killed in the ovens, back alleys and fields of Eastern and Southeastern Europe during WWII.
I see many examples of how Germany HAS learned the lessons of the National Socialist and earlier colonial eras, for example in the intense interest among many in environmental and humanitarian causes.
On the other hand, I see the incredible damage wrought by the products of the German automobile industry. There is I think a German Mobility Cult which even today - as things need to get "greener" - results in some kind of belief in a perfect kind of green mobility. WWII was in large part about resources, and even a green machine needs to get fed: Switchgrass for biogas seems to be the trendiest panacea.
There is also the "special relationship" of successive German governments with a succession of Zionist governments in occupied Palestine - and the still-too-quiet criticism of this by even the most progressive Germans. (By the way I have many Israeli cousins).
School is not out and we need to encourage Germans to look at all of this as intelligent, informed, objective and opinionated people.
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24, Copper_bottom,
Having also worked in Germany it was my experience in the areas where I worked that many Germans were still in a state of denial about WWII. There are several reasons for that and their much vaunted use of consensus decision making is very symptomatic of that denial, what it hides is that even now a very small percentage of the people make all the decisions, the rest just follow. I saw that all the time whereby the manager said what to do and the others just followed with little discussion and then called it consensus.
Extrapolating that back to pre WWII and one can see how easily it was for a person like Hitler to become so powerful, and certainly the Germans I have met still feel embarrassed about how their ancestors allowed that to happen but the subservient mentality of managers over staff is still there unfortunately. It is for this reason I suspect that the EU flag is used by Germans so much as they are still embarrassed, but what worries me is that the German leaders would like to extend that control mentality over the rest of the EU.
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Ha ha. I was joking with a mate a couple of weeks ago about the difference between Germany and Austria, the neo-nazis get respectively 0.01% and 20% of the vote in the two countries we joked. Well actually it's 28%, not 20%, I found out from all this "Haider is dead" stuff.
Anyway, the point is Germany is the only country in the world where people actually feel bad about past atrocities. Britain too? No I think not.
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SystemF,
I suggest you read some history books before making posts.
Firstly, WWI began because the Austro-Hungarian Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated by a Bosnian Serb, then all the other European countries began 'taking sides', and it rather quickly led to all-out war. Germany was forced to take the blame for starting the war as a condition of the Treaty of Versailles, even though it wasn't directly responsible.
Secondly, Germany can hardly be blamed for the unbelievable incompetence of the British Generals of the time, sending our soldiers to the slaughter time after time.
Thirdly, the Holocaust has hardly been 'forgiven' - we are just better able to understand events now. All sides do despicable things in war - the British bombing campaign, for instance. Half of my family came from East Prussia, and I will never know exactly what happened to them, because they could never bring themselves to talk about the horrific things some of the Russians did there. And they can be considered the 'lucky' ones. Sadly, Germany wasn't the only country that didn't like Jews - the Russian Pogroms, for instance? I have a German nephew who was born earlier this year. Should he be held responsible for events that took place in the last century?
As for the Middle East, that's a whole different problem.
Finally - to return to the original theme of the blog - I have always been proud of my German (and Welsh) heritage, despite the racist comments and Nazi salutes I've received over the years (a sharp contrast to my time living in Germany, where everyone was friendly towards me because I was British). I'm just glad other Germans are beginning to feel the same way too.
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The headline "German identity angst" was true maybe 10 years ago.
Many Germans identify with positive historic incidents like a peaceful East German revolution or the global World Cup 2006 celebrations. Even older achievements in history (Bismarcks unification or Luther´s protestent revolution) gain significance in the collective conscience. There is no open "German question" anymore.
Many Germans feel naturally involved in Europe/EU and see themselves half German and half European. The regional identification is imminent as well. In world affairs the Government stays cautious and sometimes sceptical in military terms but agrees more and more to a global responsibility.
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and as such (see above re. introspectiveness), Germany has made itself in last fifty years into the best place in the whole world to live...
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@35
If you really think WWI was about Franz Ferdinand then you will probably believe me when I tell you that fairies really do exist. You will also believe that it is a coincidence that Germany was allied with every country between Berlin and Bagdad and that oil had been found in Iraq just a few years previously. Also that the British Expeditionary Force was actually "Tackling Terrorism" when it went to Basra in 1914.
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An insight I gained was when mentoring a German colleague, about 30 years old, who had grown up in Thuringia. I was trying to understand how he viewed himself and his part in the company. I asked him what he had done that he was proud of. The line of questioning faltered when he explained that he had been raised to think that "pride" was not a "good thing" but something to be avoided.
Also, I always frowned at talk of German reunification, as if the country was ever a homogeneous whole. Talk of "the Germans" is as bad as using the term British and hoping to capture a description of the mindsets of all the people that make up UK.
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@38
WWI wasn't 'about' Franz Ferdinand by any means, but it can be considered the start of the World War timeline. I don't think I'd have enough space here or the time to write about all the reasons for the outbreak of WWI - Germany's desire for an empire and European Royal family feuding being amongst them.
I do know, however, that you can't believe everything you're told in school history lessons or by the government - even before Blair/Brown came to power - and that nothing is ever 'black and white'.
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I can't hear all these germanophobic clichees anymore. Germany is so much more a mature society, particularily when compared to the British worker's rights, social system, quality of life, crime rate, drug abuse and even life expectancy is higherr there.
It would do the Britons good to learn foreign languages, leave their island of isolation and become EUROPEAN! And if Britain would reprocess and analyse their colonial past and atrocities committed then, together with the aftermath in the third world and apologise, compensate.... basically do what Germany did with its own history, the world would have a much higher opinion of the UK.
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I don't know - I drink coke and love basketball.
Sounds like an American to me. ;) :P
#31. At 12:20pm on 01 Nov 2008, n c wrote:
But is it all that surprising? After all the Nazis were also for a European Union and succeed in uniting Europe under their control albeit for a very short time.
Winston Churchill also wanted to see an United Europe, does that make him a Nazi as well? :)
#4. At 05:34am on 01 Nov 2008, SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
1) Do you accept that the Brits are entitled to a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?
Sure.
2) Do you accept that there will be loads of trouble if we don't get one?
I don't see 'loads of trouble' in the short run. But definitely in the long run, especially if the Lisbon treaty goes through.
3) Have you protested in your country about the us Brits being denied our rights? Have you asked your government to support the democratic rights of downtrodden Brits?
Nope, can't say I have.
4) If you are not Irish, have you demanded a referendum in your country?
Nope.
5) Do you accept that it is hypercritical of the "EU" to complain about the treatment of dissidents in Cuba when we Brits are being treated thus?
Personally no, I do find it an exaggeration that your comparing yourself with the Cubans.
Living on love and air? #22. At 8:49pm on 31 Oct 2008, SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
In the 70's in Germany I asked my Yugoslav line manger whether he was Serb or what. He replied "I am Yugoslav." I wonder whether he still feels like that. The "EU" has similarities with Yugoslavia.
Reading the answer of the Serb, it reminded me more of Great Britain then of the EU. Ask any English man what he is and he'll be likely to say he's British ask the same question to a Scotsman and it's more likely he'll say he's Scottish before being British.
I consider myself European not because I'm part of the dominant culture in a forced union (such as in the case of a Serb in Yugoslavia or an Englishman in Great Britain) but because my family are from both Iberian countries, and I grew up in the Netherlands. I don't consider myself Dutch nor Spanish nor Portuguese simply European.
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The German identity crisis - if there is such a thing - is probably not of their making. I fear it is the rest of us that create this by constantly scrutinising them but at a trivial level. There can be no better example of this that Mark's bookshop observation. Shelves heaving with tomes about the World Wars and a complete dearth of anything else.
Even these events are frequently skewed to favour a 'moral high ground' position by the erstwhile victorious allies. We know now that the Kaiser was vehemently opposed to the war in 1914 but the Germans were effectively dragged into it by their Austro-Hungarian allies. We ignore the fact that the French, having ludicrously demanded the Rheinland in 1918, spectacularly failed to defend it. There probably would not have been a second war if they had done so.
Successive generation has moved on from my grandparents 'the only good German is a dead German' (because their kids were sent off to war), to the sheer horror of my parents' generation as the scale of the holocaust emerged, to the ambivalence tinged with schadenfreude of my generation ('Two world wars and one World Cup, doo-dah, doo-dah'). We are at the other end of all that. It's over folks.
However, we are still stuck with the stereotype exemplified by the efficiency driven manufacturers of sleek black soulless cars. None of it is a true reflection of Germany as a multifaceted, multicultural modern democracies with the same hopes and issues as the rest of us.
For me, as someone who knows and likes Germany, I prefer to think of it not as a monsterous war machine nor a super efficient producer of gas guzzlers but as the land of Goethe, Schiller, Beethoven and Brahms. Those who are still tempted to fall back on the old stereotypes would be well advised to pause and remember what an immensely civilised place it is.
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I'm an American who's lived and worked in both Germany and the UK. I'm with jon_toronto here: I'd visit the UK again and gladly live my days out in Germany.
The Brits love to belittle the Germans with stereotypes while the Germans respond with open-mindedness and curiosity in return.
The efficiency thing? Perhaps the buzzword should be 'order' rather than efficiency.
Answer the question for yourself by going to any mid-sized town in the UK and using public transport to get around (or trying to find public transport) and then do the same in Germany. Or go to a medical facility. Or observe traffic behavior and look for evidence of law enforcement. And meanwhile observe the quality of the building construction, road systems, and architecture. The outsider can't help but wonder if the right side won the war.
The other buzzword here should be 'responsibility'. Importantly one sees much more communitarian and socially-responsible thinking in Germany. The Germans tend to be more egalitarian and concernced with the general well-being of society. The UK? The upper crust doesn't give a ___ and never has/will, the uncouth masses drink themselves stupid and obsess about celebrity antics, and the middle classes flee to Australia and Canada.
This very group-oriented thinking led to a dark chapter in the history of group behavior. But as others have aptly pointed out--the unrepentant selfishness of the English upper classes led to centures of empire and its evils. How much circumspection soul-searching goes on in the UK? (No reading The Sun doesn't count.) And the bombing programs of Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris, directed against the civilian populations of Germany, should be remembered as the horrific war crimes they were (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/area_bombing_01.shtml).
Of course we Americans could do with a healthy dose of angst and shame at the moment, and a greater sense of responsibility.
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jon_toronto @ #34
I thought your comment rather spiteful but then I thought as you obviously feel that the British should be ashamed of past atrocities, you, in Canada, might feel ashamed at seeing two Canadian Troops holding a Somali child over a fire for no other reason than brutal amusement.
Have a look and weep:
UN Peace Keepers?
Let him who is without sin cast the first criticism in this blog? jon_toronto and his nation blameless?
I don't think so either!
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For 44 years from the end of WWII to the fall of the Berlin wall, the US spent not hundreds of billions but trillions of dollars rebuilding and defending Germany including running the risk of global thermonuclear war with the USSR. But when America's government felt that America's own security was at risk from Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Germany voted in the UN Security Council not with the US to give Iraq one last warning to comply with the UN inspectors or it could be attacked, nor did it abstain, but it voted with France, Russia, and China to block this resolution. Not only that but Germany's population along with most of the rest of Europe was 80% to 90% against the invasion even though at the time, they along with most others including President Putin believed that Iraq had WMDs and might use them. Clearly the Germans are no true friends of the American people no matter what they say in protest now. Now that they are worried about Russia, oil, gas, their economy, they have suddenly warmed up to the US and sing a different song but a leopard never changes his spots. Let them rely on France and the rest of the EU to solve their problems. This American wants to know why his government is still spending many tens of billions of dollars a year to support military bases in Germany and the rest of Europe and why it remains in NATO at all. I think it's time for Europe to pay for its own defense.
Until around 1978 or so, Germans did not face up to their dark past. I had a long chat on a transatlantic flight with a German schoolteacher around 1973 about what they told German children about WWII and the events leading up to it and it was clear they were in the same mindset Japan remains in. Also according to a book written by an American in the 1990s, it is a myth that the German people as a whole did not know what was going on in the concentration camps and the mass murders there. German soldiers, SS, an others who worked there sent photos and lettters home to their families bragging about what was happening.
The previous Prime Minster Gerhard Schroeder was behind in the polls BEFORE the invasion of Iraq. To win re-election he played the "anti-American card" and it worked proving that anti-American sentment was strong in Germany before Iraq. Chirac seeing this did the same in France and it not only worked well there too but spread all over Europe like wildfire. The war in Iraq did not make new enemies for the US, it merely revealed longstanding old ones the US mistook for friends. IMO Europe is no good. America should turn its back on Europe and revert to the sage warnings President Washington gave in his farewell address about staying out of entangling alliances and relationships in Europe, advice every American president followed up until Woodrow Wilson got us involved. America has paid a high price for this mistake ever since. Correcting it is long overdue.
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6. At 06:03am on 01 Nov 2008, normallynorman wrote:
"How is it, that no matter what the topic, there are post from 'anti' European Union contributors?"
1: Because your "EU" is determined to force its dictatorship upon us no matter what! I assume they think that one day we will give up. We need to persuade them that we won't. I am not threatening violence but I do believe that one day there will be a violent uprising against the "EU" if they do not stop. Using this site is preferable to another war.
When Helmut Schmidt was German Chancellor he visited London and went shopping. He stated that he had seem continental duvets on sale in London and believed that in fifteen years time the whole anti-Euro thing in the UK would be forgotten. At one time I was sleeping in German pyjamas under a German duvet in a German covering on a German sheet which was on a German mattress which was on a German bed. It didn't mean I loved the "EU". Many years later I switched on the radio and there was Helmut Schmidt saying he had realised he was mistaken and had given up on us. It is said that Blair thought he was going to persuade us but has given up. You get your "EU"-dictatorship to leave us alone and then we can have a normal, sensible, co-operative relationship with the "EU".
Further:
"And Suffolkboy2, 'hypercritical'? It's not the same as 'hypocritical'..."
Thank you for correcting my spelling. It wasn't very good.
And further:
" ... and just for once get off your very high hobby horse."
A German professor said that to me over twenty-five years ago. He actually used the words "hobby horse". The answer was no then and the answer is no now.
GOTO: 1:
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Being German, I agree with all the points made in the article.
Personally, I had to spend years living abroad (US) to develop some sense of national identity.
Yet still, I sort of feel European first, German second.
Not for any political reasons, just feeling so much closer to home culturally when I'm walking through Paris, London or Stockholm compared to NYC, Seattle or San Francisco.
___
Fritz Kraut
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1, loojeanmacloo wrote:
I am an Irishman who happily lived and worked in Germany for some years in the 80s and 90s. However, since I bagan working in the Balkans, I found that most Germans I met there have an intense dislike of the Serbs.
________
I don't know many Germans who have worked in the Balkans during the civil war, but the few I do know never struck me as being particularly anti-Serb.
However, I for one am left with a great distrust of the Balkan countries.
The atrocities , the ethnic cleansings were just a little too similar to what happened prior to and during WW II in Germany and the occupied areas.
Being German, I find it bizarre to have witnessed such bestiality in times when we thought at least in Europe it could never happen again.
----
Fritz Kraut
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#44 - Cavuncular
I have no idea where this habit came from of using just about any excuse to go British bashing. I was under the impression this thread was about German identity angst. It is becoming very tedious.
You have a point about UK public transport which is actually a philosophical one. The British seem to regard it as a license to print money whereas, in continental Europe it is considered a public service. One up to you.
I have never seen any evidence that the standard of driving is any better or worse in either country (apart from accident figures which show the UK in a very good light), the assertion that the quality of construction is any worse than in Germany is totally invalid. Buildings do not routinely collapse in either country. The road system is variable, bearing in mind that rather more of the UK infrastructure survived the last war than in Germany but, where it has been renewed, it is to the same high standard given that Britain has a lot less space in which to do it and you point about architecture is purely subjective - you either like or don't like a particular structure. Strange, however that British architects have been called in to design some of the biggest civic projects in Germany, don't you think? Sweeping generalisations about the underclasses drinking themselves into stupor is precisely the kind of stereotyping you condemn in the British for in respect of the Germans and is insulting to the majority who do not. As to visiting a medical facility, my personal experience of the NHS is positive but, from your perspective, I guess it depends on whether you are viewing it from a position of being able to pay for it or not. At least the UK does not have that issue and it ill behooves those who come from a society in which access to health care depends on the size of your pocket book to attack the European model in general or its application in particular countries.
I have chosen in recent times to live outside the UK. There are things about my country that trouble me deeply and I am not counted amongst those who indulge in uncritical patriotism but I am not going to sit idly by while others lambaste the UK with prejudices which simply do not stand up to scrutiny. Germany and Britain are both modern democracies functioning at a high level of economic activity with a considerable degree of success, both with deep rooted traditions and long histories which have not held them back from progressing into the 21st century. Germany in particular should be congratulated for its emergence from a very dark recent past.
In fact, if I find anything surprising, it is how few posters have commented on how remarkable similar the two countries are in their modern incarnations.
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49. At 3:12pm on 01 Nov 2008, U12831485 wrote:
" ...
Being German, I find it bizarre to have witnessed such bestiality in times when we thought at least in Europe it could never happen again."
It could happen again because of the "EU". The "EU" is forcing its dictatorship on millions of people who despise it.
I've had "EU"-lovers screaming at me because of very mild criticism of the "EU". They might move on from a fascist use of the mouth to a fascist use of weapons.
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Cavuncular @ #44
An American with partisanship clearly for Germany and then tries to belittle the British and tries to lay a war crime on the British for "Bomber" Harris's Carpet bombing of Germany during the Second World War?
This would be a laugh if I did not think you were actually serious.
I wonder what the Americans, flying their Flying Fortresses in Daylight Raids over Germany were doing in 1944 and 1945, sightseeing from the air?
"Oh look there is Berlin - Gee whizz! They look like their having a party, just look at all those firecrackers down there!"
And the American's criticising the British for carpet bombing when the Enola Gaye dropped it's gift of that Century on Hiroshima despite the fact the Japanese were so beaten they had already been discussing a truce?
I suppose Nagasaki was just to rub it in . . . "We're the Yanks and we love to bomb, bomb, bomb!"
Gosh you guys even do it today from the air.
Rather than risk your guys going in on foot in any campaign, the Yanks will bomb, bomb, bomb for days beforehand!
I bet the Pakistanis just love the American Pilotless Drone Aircraft launching rockets on to their territory . . . perhaps the Americans are trying for 4 more wars - Pakistan and now Syria as well as Afghanistan and Iraq?
Holier than thou. What a joke!
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# 21 Rockystock
I read your post with interest but I believe you are slightly mistaken. In the American civil war the vast majority of people held in those camps were combatants whereas the British government had a policy of rounding up all Boers, whether combatants or not. Women and children suffered and died in those camps in South Africa, not just combatants. That is the difference between what happened in the USA and the Brits and the Nazis.
If you have any links to contradict this then I would be very interested in reading this as I cannot find anything on a policy of women and children being interned in concentration camps in the USA during the American civil war.
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#46 - MarcusAureliusII
Marcus, what is going wrong? Here am I attacking a compatriot of yours in my previous post for his prejudices and now I am about to endorse every word you say.
You are absolutely right. There is no reason why the American tax payer should pay for the defence of Europe (although, to be statistically accurate about this, The US contribution as a proportion of GDP is less than several other members. Details HERE, but given the relative sizes of GDP, that is pretty academic).
I think their are three possible reasons:
1. Command and Control Structure. The US presence ensures that it will invariably have a say in deployment on the ground.
2. Inconsistency within the Alliance. Afhanistan is a case in point where a number of members point to their contribution but do not allow deployment in Helmand preferring to leave the rough stuff to you, the Brits, the Canadians and a handful of others.
3. The Nuclear Button. It is clear that, if the US were to withdraw from Europe, the Brits would be entitled to say that Trident is bought and paid for and they will use it where and when they like without prior consultation.
4. Britain, caught up between her commitment to the Alliance and the 'special relationship' as opposed to an integrated European policy.
5. The Mutual Defence Commitment. An attack on one is an attack on all works both ways. It is after all what underpins the so called 'war on terror'.
I tend to share your view that it is high time Europe grew up, decided who the enemy - real or perceived - may be, structured their defence accordingly, and paid for it. However, you should be aware that, while it would reduce some of the burden on the US tax payer, it would also significantly reduce your influence. There may be those at the DOD and the State Department think the price is well worth paying.
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U12831485
"Being German, I find it bizarre to have witnessed such bestiality in times when we thought at least in Europe it could never happen again."
When you look at these people in the Balkins and their governments today and in the recent past, just keep in mind that you are also likely looking at your own grandparents and great grandparents and those of most of the other people in your country. There is hope that ultimately they can change but it will have to be imposed on them from the outside by them being aware that they are unacceptable to the larger Europe as they are, it will not happen by itself. Europe is not America, it doesn't operate that way. It's reform will not come from within upon self examination and self correction.
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#51 - SuffolkBoy2
It's the language, not the sentiment. Couched in reasonable, well argued terms, many will see that you have a point but going on about the 'EU dictatorship' and the maligning those who don't agree with you as 'EU lovers' does your cause no favours in my view.
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My family is Wendish we came from the area of Cottbus, Germany. We emmigrated as a group to Serbin, Texas, so we could practice our Lutheran religion without the interference of the government and spread out from there. We don't understand modern Germans and haven't understood them, since World War I. There seems to be a belief in Germany that the military can ONLY be used for evil and therefore deserves no support, this inhibits the German Military when it is given an impootant and worthwhile mission like running the Talliban out of Afganistan and setting up a Freely elected democracy. To not put a 100% into so important a job is, to support the old dictatorship and dom the Afgan's to hideous slavery, by a horrible government. It is to the point that Germany won't even allow her military awards for valor. German soldiers fighting does not hurt her reputation, it is when her politicians don't support democracy that the damage is done. I despise this cynical, self-serving attitude that Germany has addopted, (how French) it is way past time that her military be allowed to defend the nation with pride, honor and yes valor (re-establish the Pour le Merit). By the way I am an American, because Germans don't hyphenate their citizenship, there is no such thing as a German-American. Germany for us is all about pride and it is about time the people in the parent country stop apoloizing and act normal. The left has filled your children's heads with garbage and made you ashamed of your own people. We have made a few mistakes in America and look at the French rape of Europe during the time of Napolean; Regretable but we have no intetion to kick ourselves forever. Snap out of it!
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# 50 Threnodio
There is very little you have said there that I disagree with. It's bad enough we Brits bashing ourselves without the foreigners joining in, unless it is said in jest.
However, he is right about the upper classes.
# 44 Cavuncular
Just remember that some of those 'uncouth masses' you talk about are fighting alongside your fellow Americans in Afghanistan and getting killed and maimed. So have a little respect.
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, occupiedmexico @32 wrote:
I live in Berlin now but am Jewish and from California. A child of immigrants - a large part of my family was killed in the ovens, back alleys and fields of Eastern and Southeastern Europe during WWII.
You obviously have learnt nothing, then, from your family's sufferings.
The founding of Israel - what you laughingly call "Zionist governments in occupied Palestine" - i.e. the establishment of an independent Jewish independent state in the Jew's ancestral homeland - is the key lesson that Jews worldwide learnt from the holocaust.
Still, it's far trendier to be a green/red leftie.
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I think it is about time the British - and others -stopped this 'all Germans are Nazis' rubbish and constant jokes about them and references to the WW2.
It makes for interesting reading -all of the above - as the jibes and misintepretations continue.
Thank you for sensible comments from Tigerkatze no 20;Ladyhepburn no35;Threnodio no43 and Cavuncular no 44 among others.
Much of the German angst has been caused by the attitude of other nations.But I also think it is a condition that others perceive to exist more , or for longer, than the Germans themselves.
I was born in an English market town to a British army officer father and a German mother who met in 1945! Not an easy start for either when they came back to the UK. My brother was born in Hamburg in 1948.
On returning to England in 1953 my father could not find work after leaving the British army. My mother was ,until 1960, marked as an enemy alien!
My brother was beaten up at school many times.
I was born in 1956. I, too, was bullied at school until my early teens (as the Americans say do the maths - yes it still went on and still does to a degree) being called names like 'Nazi Pig!', 'Kraut' and German swine'. And I was not even born in the country !
I studied WW2 for my history 'O' level and just reading the history books was fascinating.Because I had been given slightly different versions of certain events by 2 people who had actually been there and witnessed this part of history that I was now studying!
People have preconceived ideas about the German people and it is still fascinating to this day at the number of people in Britain who have not visited Germany (but visited many other European destinations) but are experts on the place and when they do visit cannot get over how wonderful the place is and how friendly the inhabitants are and how good the food is!
The German trains do run on time. When they say they will do something - they do it.I have found Germans far more receptive and friendly than many a British person on my travels.
But these are general observations. And they have their bad points aswell just like everyone else!In fact they have many similarities with the British and you will find that the Germans have great respect and a high regard for Britain - and always have done.
All countries have been to war at some point in their history but, I do feel that Germany has taken some flack for a very long period of time.She was punished severely after the war - quite rightly so.
I think Germany has now moved on and is working hard as a member of this new Europe.
A teenage daughter of some German freinds of mine came to stay this summer .
Her English is very good but she wanted to improve it( she studies Spanish and italian aswell) and to mix in and experience a typical English village. She found a summer job and helped me out with village activities among other things.
She wrote an article for the village news letter before she left. She enjoyed her time so much and could not believe how friendly everyone was at work, in the village and - a first for her- at the village barn dance.She also commented on how informal the relationship between employees and management was!
I took her to visit my mother who is now 86 years old. Here were 2 completely different Germans separated by time, events and history.Yet they communicated beautifully.
I asked this 16 year old about her history lessons and WW2.
She had not been taught anything about the WW2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My knowledge of WW1 and WW2 surprised her.
But I will tell you one thing; when it comes to buying clothes - Germany is the only place I do not have a problem finding exactly what I want re colour, texture ,choice, colour and fitting!
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#58 - gedguy2
"However, he is right about the upper classes".
I am not so sure he is. Don't forget that you have (with one short break) had 21 years of Thatcherism and Blairism during which time it was OK to become filthy rich. (One of the reasons, by the way that the political classes are so second rate. Anyone with real talent is too busy making money to be bothered with the public service).
Class in the UK used to be about breeding, education, good taste and manners. I am not saying that I have any particular brief for the class system but it was the case. Today, it is all about dosh, pure and simple. Even the state measures it in those terms. So today's 'upper class' are simply 'spivs with lots of lovely wonga'. You know the type - they just destroyed the banking system by being too greedy.
The only difference it seems to me between a spiva and a chav is the size of your bank balance.
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#49 - U12831485
I was in Mostar just after the Bosnian War and there were German troops there (command and control, I think, was Spanish). Granted there were very few Serbs around.
I had the feeling the Germans were simply not comfortable there. At first, I could not work out why but I now think that it came a bit close to home. Don't forget that this was a generation that was born after the German economic miracle. They knew nothing first hand about senseless destruction and abject suffering and yet here it was staring them in the face and with it the startling truth that this was exactly what we had been doing to each other on a unimaginably larger scale only 50 years earlier. The element of racial hatred and ethic cleansing added a certain piquancy to that.
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LadyHepburn @35
"Sadly, Germany wasn't the only country that didn't like Jews - the Russian Pogroms, for instance?"
With regards to Russia times its empire pogrom was a Ukrainian speciality.
I wouldn't care to object much, but since Ukraine is an independent country now, I think they might just pick up some of their history with.
"not the only country" of course. I think I remember something in Shakespeare.
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# 61 threnodio
I think there is a difference between the 'upper classes' and the 'spivs' in the city. Those spivs may be rich but I don't think the upper classes would ever consider them to be part of their breeding programme. As to the upper classes having manners, I would have to bring to your attention the fact that good manners were invented to stop the ruling classes from killing each other (and us in the process) at the drop of a hat. I have had occasions to be in the company of those who would be considered upper class and they could leave me standing when it comes to swearing, and that's only the women!
The only thing the upper classes and the working classes have in common is that they don't give a fig about any other class. It only seems to be the middle classes that seem to care about anything. Please keep in mind that I am generalising and that there is always the exception to the rule.
As to the difference between spivs and chavs; after I stopped laughing I had to agree.
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#63 - WebAliceinwonderland
Hi Alice,
Yes - and of course Baba Ya. And who replaced all the concentration camp personnel when the Germans were sent to the Eastern Front?
I promised I would not let myself get dragged into the events of 60 years ago. I don't think it has too much to do with modern Germany but if we are going to go down that road, we should not forget that the Germans did not do this all on their own. Some historical perspective is needed.
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Well according to John Prescott, "we are all middle class now" and according to Margaret Thatcher "there is no such thing as society".
I suppose you just "pays yer money and takes yer choice" - assuming that is that you have any :-)
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Reply to Gedguy2
You mentioned the american civil war, i can assure you i did not mean that time period in history but in fact some 30 odd years or so later but i'm sure this was only a slip of the keyboard on your behalf, so to speak.
The americans have adopted this strategy of scorched earth policy since american-indian wars where they herded people onto reservations/camps where there was little food water and shelter, this went largely unreported at the time because the indian was a savage beast, apparently. During the american-spanish war they had perfected this scorched earth treatment of the local population to wear down resistance to the occupying forces, how can you fight an invader when your first priority is not too let your family starve, it served the americans very well and the war lasted only around 100 days.
The Brits copied this highly effective stratergy in 1900-01 when it became clear they were fighting an hit and run enemy and they did not know who was a combatant and who was not so instead of fighting "real" battles they faced something new, they saw this stratergy the americans used and renamed it "concentration camp" and because of this we are now synomonis with the first concentration camp but to say we invented it couldn't be farther from the truth.
As for internet links i'm afraid not, as i'm probably older than yourself i read books when i was younger, a lot of them, where i got this information from, but i', sure if you look hard enough there must be something on the internet as i'm told it is the worlds largest library
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# 63 WebAliceinwonderland
I don't think there is a country in Europe that can hold its head high enough to escape the atrocities that have been inflicted upon the Jews through the centuries. I'd be interested to know one that hasn't done something in their past against them.
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# 67 rockystock
Thank you for the compliment but I don't think my grandkids would consider me young, but I appreciate the sentiment.
I have just re read your post and I have to admit that I misread it. I apologise, it must be the second chance at youth that caused this error. As to the 'indian problem', you were 100% right right there. I wasn't aware of the American-Spanish scorched earth policy, but now that you have pointed that out to me I will most certainly look into it. I have tended to concentrate my interest in history on the European aspect and not the American one. I thank you again for lumping me with more research that I will struggle to find the time to follow up. I don't think my girlfriend is going to be happy with me; I think I'll just blame you.
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no.68 gedguy2
Wellsaid gedguy2.
Even the British - or should that be the English .If my memory serves me right certain Kings of medieval England needed some money didn't they?
It always boils down to money!
How does that song go?
'money,money money, money,money' Cabaret I think!
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# 66 threnodio
Is this the same 'middle class' John Prescott who goes around punching people he doesn't like and giving the finger to SNP supporters at train stations. So much for middle class manners. :-o
Margaret Thatcher was right about there being no such thing as society considering she destroyed most of it.
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@65 threnodio
yes, Germans had many eager assistants.
(likewise our patented monster Stalin also had many eager assistants. because I still find it bizarre how one man managed to murder 30 mln Russians. Must be have stood with an axe day and night without holidays.)
What drives Russia mad now is not Germany at all, but all those who want to be "Germany" that doesn't exist anymore.
Come V-day - Ukr. President doesn't gather anymore to toast with all ex-USSR in Moscow. Goes instead to spectacularly embrace own veterans who joined German side. At that his own veterans who kind of always though all their lives they did the right thing being the Russia side, are not embraced by anybody!
At home the other kind is more important these complex political days. To go to Moscow to drink with Russians - also politically incorrect.
Baltics simply hold SS veterans marches, on V-day, in old uniforms. "Part of the history of our country". Germany doesn't do that! Baltics do.
____________
re Germany itself - I don't know. We were always taught in Soviet schools our Germans are good, like, as if somehow all those against the war and Hitler mysteriously got magneted to the east Berlin side. And all the pro-war ones - oh surely flocked to the other side of the Wall.
I haven't even thought of that, say, about first 20-30 yrs of my life!
Was a natural disposition that all our Germans are great and wonderful. I'd think USSR schooling was about to announce Goethe and Heine and Beethoven were all natural East and wonderful Germans, but at this point USSR collapsed and the idea wasn't developed further.
However people of my generation still first thought automatically think that 1/2 of Germans is lovely.
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PS And now, threnodio, with you confusing Mikhail Sergeevich's head, to the degree that the Wall was carried away for souvenirs - they all got mixed up - and we can't find our good ones!
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#71 - gedguy2
Well what did you expect from a ship's steward and a chemist. Whiskey in a test tube?
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Reply to Gedguy2
Thank you for being so gracious, i must admit that theres nothing that gets me hot under the collar so much as when poeple say the Brits invented the concentration camp, it just isn't true and it's one of those perversions of history that we have now been lumbered with like so many others.
I must also say that military history through the ages is something i have studied over many years so i can be quite brutish about it, so i apologise if i came across a bit strong.
Please, also apologise to your girlfriend for me, ;-)
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In every joke there is a share of truth, sadly.
A sample of patriotic unbringing I got, as a pupil in Soviet school, even in already falling to pieces Soviet times.
I was 13 I think. Sat in the front desk where the disobedient ones are put, closer to the teacher's eyes, and pinched, etc. my bosom enemy, Helena, a Polish girl.
Normal math class, and we had a very good teacher. Then he looks at his watch, says "class, quiet. In 5 minutes here will come the school director, with a German delegation." (that school where I studied a bit was considered good, an obsevatory, planetarium, swim pool etc., so was often visited by education delegations, to show off achievements of socialism.) (to the glossy swim pool we were never let once)
Nevermind, our teacher says - "So, what do you think? Should we let them listen to our maths lecture, and all. Welcome them?"
The pupils, like, wahh, who cares, one delegation, another.. what's new.
The teacher says - "Mind it, it's Western Germany this time, fascists."
The pupils, like, "what?" fasists? no way!
let's lock the door! pretend we are not here!"
The doors I don't remember why no keys, or something, remember as now how the class teacher takes the laening lady broom in the corner, slids it between the handles or something, and says. "Well, if you agree with me in this case - sit damn quiet! not a sound! Especially it concerns you - Russian-Polish mafia on the first desk! Stop your fighting and pinching, Germany at the door."
Total silence, hollow steps of the school director who chatters something to the Germans, feet come close, she pulls - the door doesn't open. She hisses in awful whisper - "Leonid Nikolaevich, I know you are there, open this very minute! You'll regeret it!"
But of course we didn't open.
I don't know what I wanted to say by that story. But that it took place.
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It's okay Nanotchka. They're gone now. It's safe to come out.
It's funny they don't hold a grudge against Russia or the USSR. They invested a lot of money, many billions just a relatively short time ago and I think much of it was stolen from them. Maybe they still feel guilty about Leningrad. If you want something from the Germans just remind them of WWII. They'll give it to you out of guilt even though most of them hadn't been born yet when the war ended.
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germans very ignorant
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# 75 Rockystock
You are right about history being perverted by national interests to the extent that it is a complete shambles. I have been doing a lot of research into all the royal families of Europe and have nearly reached the conclusion that all of them at one time can trace their ancestry back to several Nordic families who left Scandanavia up to a couple of centuries or so before Christ and took over Europe, as well as the middle east for a time. (I suspect that they got fed up of the Nokia anthem).
You didn't come over strong to me but you stood your ground as you knew you were right. No problem with that.
# 74 Threnodio
I suspect that you are either Irish or American because, unlike us Scots, we don't need to put any 'E's' in our whisky. You can get off your head enough without lacing it with drugs.
# 72 WebAliceinwonderland
This was a good post. It still amazes me that there are still some Russians who believe Stalin to be a great man. They still have statues up of him, when he murdered more of his own people than what the Germans managed to do in the second world war. It would be like the Germans having statues of Hitler up in their town squares. Strange!
# 70 Regalvalkyrie
Much as I would love to lay the blame upon my English compatriots, as is our national want, I would have to say that the Scots were no better at treating the Jews than the English were. But don't let anybody know that I said that.
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If a nation like Germany, which has very severe climes, can achieve what it does even after battling the harshness of nature, then all the nations in the world, can attain to the stature which Germany holds.
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# 35 LadyHepburn
I must have missed your post as I have just read it now. It was indeed a good post. You were right about the first world war. Three German cousins couldn't get on with each other and eight million people had to die. If we had arguements with our cousins like that and started shelling each other over the garden fence; the police would soon be around. Where were the police in 1914? As usual they only came around after the trouble was over.
As to the idiotic policy of Haig of 'flesh against machine guns'; what a waste! I believe it was the Americans who first started using machine guns in war fifty years before the first world war. (I await to be corrected by Rockystock)
As to the Germans being friendly, I have been over there several times and have never yet met a rude German. I too find them to be very friendly and clean. I had a walk in the woods just outside of my army camp once and was shocked find that even the woods were free of rubbish. Not like over here where it is hard to walk 100m in the woods without stumbling across empty embassy packets and coke cans.
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Mavrelius, @77, come to grips. If you "remind them of WWII", they'll "catch up with you - and give you an additional kick!"
I mean, if the one to remind is Russian.
On your side maybe you convinced Germans they are guilty.
Western ones Russia never had a go at, with brain washing, no access, and our Eastern ones were good by definition.
Besides we invaded and occupied the Eastern ones.
So, technically speaking, neither ex-German side feels guilty about Russians.
About Jewish - yes. Not about Russians.
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# 78 Jaws1912
Really impressed by this exhortation. I can tell that you must have spent years researching this. No one can accuse you of being excelled at the exuberance of your own verbosity.
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78 - jaws1912
"germans very ignorant"
I was tempted - very rare for me - to ask that this comment be moderated out but, on reflection it should stay. It is precisely the kind of irrational display of blind prejudice which makes it all the more important for civilised people to engage in dialogue.
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MAII, I'll give you a practical example. (i am good at those).
USSR collapsed, ration cards, you come to friends to visit with own sugar, and all that jazz. (typical joke of those days - a question to the guests: "Will you wash hands with soap or have tea with sugar") (2 bars of soap for 3 moths pp).
All lovely in other words, and I lived next house to the German embassy in St. Petersburg.
Huge cueue since 5 in the morn. Jewish people with application for German citizenship. By 4:30 boulevard empty again, embassy closes right on the clock.
On the wall (still there, mind it) - the sample of the application:
"I, Sidorov, but in reality - Katzman..."
I laughed mad every time I passed the ad under the glass.
s
Germany opened a special programme for the Jewish folks. It is still on, on the same conditions. That if you can prove you are Jewish (not suffered in war, not tha you parents suffered - simply - Jewish) you can emigrate to Germany. At that, it is enough to have 1 (one) Jewish relative among your grandma-s grandfa-s or parents.
There began a hysterical search for old documents in Russia, many tried to find(falsify, invent and pretend) that they are Jewish, to be able to emigrate to the West.
As a Russian you still can't, only as Jewish.
The amount of people I know who live now in Germany in this arragement - exceeds all expectations. But Russians - forget about it.
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79 - gedguy2
Sorry to disappoint, English to core but cursed with the Englishman's burden - an American spellchecker. I don't live there though. I live in Hungary these days.
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gedguy2 @79, "It still amazes me that there are still some Russians who believe Stalin to be a great man".
We have a saying about ourselves, that never outdates for centuries so far:
Russia has only 2 problems: debils and roads.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (72):
You said: "Baltics simply hold SS veterans marches, on V-day, in old uniforms. "Part of the history of our country". Germany doesn't do that! Baltics do."
Just wanted to note that its not the states themselves that endorse or organize these activities. Its all done by individuals. I would also claim that the general population doesn't support their activities, but in democracies individual people have the right to do these kind of things, be it right or wrong.
I would also claim that these marches happen in Baltics because their twisted histories they have become more polarized and politicized than other countries. In example Lennart Meri's, who was the first president of newly independent Estonia, cousin Arnold Meri is a staunch communist who fought in Red Army, Hero of a Soviet Union, and is now charged for crimes against humanity. The thing is that whole families were split by the world war, some fought along side Nazis, some went to Finland to fight against Soviet and some joined Soviet to fight against Nazis. As Estonia and other Baltic's just reclaimed their independence these things haven't been yet discussed or conciliation agreed. That's why in Baltic's there are people who wear SS uniforms and other who wear Soviet uniforms.
Don't mistake that I support people marching with their old uniforms, that is a strong political statement from their part. I support that veterans, from all sides, can remember their struggle, their sacrifices and those who fell. What you see Baltic's in remembrance and in time you will also see conciliation.
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# 86 threnodio
We all have our crosses to bear, but you are right about the American spellchecker. Someone once said about us and the Americans (I couldn't be bothered to find out who), 'We are the same people separated by a common language.' As to you living in Hungary, I am living in similar circumstances because this credit crunch is forcing me live in hunger.
# 87 WebAliceinwonderland
I have just asked my Russian girlfriend about this saying. Do you mean 'devil' or 'idiot'?
She wholeheartedly agreed with you about the roads, though.
I need to go now as I will have to placate her before she finds out that Rockystock has forced me into spending more of my spare time investigating the American-Spanish war. I think I'll hide the rolling pin before it turns into an ICBM.
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no 79 gedguy2
ah! the truth will out!
no 85 WebAliceinwonderland
I know what you are talking about and to think I was in Moscow 6 months ago!
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59. MaxSceptic wrote: "...independent..."
Can I give one example of this? That the USA gives billions for Israel's military under the condition that a significant percentage of it goes to arms producers in the USA?
Sounds like the sickest, deadliest form of co-dependence.
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At 7:21pm on 01 Nov 2008, gedguy2 wrote:
"It still amazes me that there are still some Russians who believe Stalin to be a great man. They still have statues up of him, when he murdered more of his own people than what the Germans managed to do in the second world war. It would be like the Germans having statues of Hitler up in their town squares."
=====
What amazes me is that many people believe Napoleon Bonaparte to be a great man -- when, relative to the population of Europe at the time of his "activities", he caused the death of far more people that Stalin and Hitler (and maybe even Bush) combined.
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At 8:40pm on 01 Nov 2008, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
gedguy2 @79, "It still amazes me that there are still some Russians who believe Stalin to be a great man".
We have a saying about ourselves, that never outdates for centuries so far:
Russia has only 2 problems: debils and roads.
=====
yeah, very true obviously... but I am pleased to say that it's much better now since it seems that many debils have emigrated to the West, not a few of them to Germany, and elsewhere...
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I have a lot of respect for Germany and German people. I think they've done the best they could to rectify the damage caused from WWII, I don't have any real criticism to give because I honestly don't know if my country or any other country would have handled the situation any better, it's tough!
But we, as non-Germans need to remind other people that anything German should not bring a swastika to mind and that if anything, it was the German people who began suffering before most other people, often times before the war even started and they didn't get any help or attention.
I've met way too many people who immediately associate Germany with the Nazis and it's sad. It needs to stop. We are also responsible for part of the problem regarding Germany's need to move on (which they have every right to do), if all some of us can do is continue blaming them for a sad situation that they already learned from. It's time for us to let it go, too.
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Historically ,Germany has made great contributions to Western civilisation , in so many fields , science , music, philosophy.
It is very unfortunate that the events of the Nazi times seem to have at least much reduced such activities.
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#94 - anonymoushumanoid
I entirely agree with you and endorse your sentiments.
#95 - farfrom
I partially agree with you and again I endorse the sentiment but I think I would be inclined to use the word Germans rather than Germany.
It is sometimes overlooked that while Germany as an idea and a cultural entity has been around for many centuries, the nation is actually a very young one, dating from the late 19th century. Prior to that, it was a fairly loose group of comparatively small states, electorates and duchies. The dominant regional powers were Prussia in the north East and the Holy Roman Empire and its successor, the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the south. Bavaria was a separate entity. Modern Germany really is an extension of the old Prussia.
It has struck me that the 'golden age' of German art and culture dates especially from the period before Germany became political entity. Ask someone who is familiar with the music of the period who the great German composers are and the list will be huge but ask about the 20th century and they will slow down noticeably. Wagner may have waxed lyrical about die heilige deutsche kunst but, apart from Richard Strauss, he is the last great figure of German opera. His German nationalist dream was realised but somehow the cultural identity seems to have been blurred on the way.
This is not to say that it has died off but the towering figures that were so dominant in the 18th and 19th centuries have faded.
I wonder if any of our German friends can explain this.
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droog67 at @93
what makes you so confident it's not the other way around?
happy faces at home, or a sudden excess of particulary intelligent faces?
I won't say I suffer from the abundance of both types...
The runaways I pity.
But they pity me.
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gedguy2 @89
I meant "fools and roads", if you wish.
And do check the genuine-ity of your Russian girl-friend ASAP! :-)
(The soothing thing, though, is she displayed a correct reaction to the mention of our roads condition...)
There is a second part to the proverb as well: "...and one problem continues to build the other!"
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It would be interesting for Mr. Mark Mardell to travel to Japan and compare the Japanese attitudes and reflections on their past.
TC
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Alice,
I have "Debils" as a germanic word in origin meaning "Idiots."
I hope the Russians haven't "grabatised" the word? ;=)
(To explain, when I read your ""debils and roads" comment, I automatically though it was a typogrphic mistake and you meant "devils?")
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I can`t wait for the Germans to really start looking at their past,without all the fake history being shoved down their throats.
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It think it is unfair to equate the societies of former east and west germany. Under the benovalent guidance of the US, West Germany evolved into a peaceful and acceptable member of the community of nations even if it retained small isolated vestages of its racist past. It was also a wealthy and technologically advanced society by European standards. East Germany was on the other hand not only still a primitive poorly developed nation on the basis of its physical infrastructure, socially it had hardly budged from its mindset at the end of WWII. Many West Germans must have been horrified when they found out what a wretched people they had taken responsibility for after the wall came tumbling down. Trying to bring them up to Western standards has been very expensive financially and has adversely impacted their society's social values. Reunion has brought West Germany down. It will take generations to civilize the Easterners and repair the damage they've done to West Germans.
It seems to me that when you travel from the political center of America to the far far left or far far right, you come full circle to the totalitarian state. Whether fascist or communist, they have much more in common with each other than either would like to admit to the point of being indistinguishable from an American perspective. European poltics by American standards is mostly far left often bordering between socialism and communims but with a significant element on the far right as well. Trying to find a union in this mess, I'm glad it's not an American problem.
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The US and Britian firebombed German citizens in a blantent dixsregard for civilian life and a lack of understanding that the average person in Germany (just like in Japan) had 0 control over their country's actions. The US used concentration camp-like stockades when they rounded up southeastern Indians and force-marched them to Oklahoma. I've heard there are ruins of these stockades around metropolitan Atlanta, which is almost entirely ethnically cleansed territory. The Nazis just tried to take things to the next level. They were an extremely dysfunctional cult and set the seeds of their own demise. I think the way people in Germany have dealt with their past is truly amazing. A girl I met in Berlin told me that people were putting gold bricks in front of apartments from which it could be documented that someone was removed and taken to a camp. I've had lots of conversations with WWII-generation Germans who have actually dealt with the reality of their history, whereas most people in the world don't really know much about serious injustices in their own countries' histories.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I am an American (who will have whiskey before E with his electronica thank you but prefers coffee and a smoke to gedguy2 down there!). Nevertheless, I have lived in Germany for more than a year and hope to go back. I have a German girlfriend and German friends. I also met a holocaust survivor last week as she came to speak to my German class here on the west coast US. Serious Germans will ponder their nation?s past and think deeply on many subjects. Many will be born wounded and with ?holes in the souls?. This happens in different ways in the US as well. There are some that know and respect our history, deal with the pains of how things were and how they effect today. Less serious, thoughtful and deep people will not be troubled by such things and will enjoy their lives barring the normal trials.
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Good morning to you all.
# 93 Droog67
I first noticed this name 'droog' when watching the release of Stanley Kubrick's movie: 'A Clockwork Orange', based on a novel by Anthony Burgess. I thought it was a made up name until my current Russian girlfriend was kind enough to point out that it was Russian. Sorry, this was just an aside. As to the naming of geopolitical blocs called 'East and West', I think that this attitude should be shelved along with the post war attitude of 'all Germans are Nazis'. There is no East and West now; it's gone. So, if people want to emigrate to another country then surely that is up to them and it would just be rude to label them as 'debils'.
# 98 WebAliceinwonderland
She is half Russian, half Jewish and half Greek (I know, don't ask! I've been trying to figure out that mathematical conundrum myself) from eastern Ukraine, but sees herself as Russian. She speaks quite often to my other ex-Russian girlfriend who has returned home to Ufa, on the phone so she must be Russian. Like # 100 Menedemus I thought it was a typo error, that's why I asked. I suspect 'debil' comes from the latin word 'debilitare' meaning feeble.
# 92 Droog67
I agree with you about Napoleon, but I still think he had a long way to go to beat Stalin or even Ghengis Khan.
# 105 justindr660
I too am only interested in tea and coffee. I gave up all the other stuff years ago when I grew out of my hippy period. The closest I ever got to 'electronica' was Kraftwerk's 'Autobahn'.
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I often wonder how much more popular these blogs would be if they were uncensored.
If they were(and society really was free and democratic) the anti-German atrocity propaganda would`nt last 5 seconds,instead of the current 60 years and counting.
Revisionism is coming, people!
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I go to Germany quite often for family, friends and business reasons. I must say Germans are no saints, and they have misgivings although they won't voice them as loud as other "Europeans" (whatever that means).
As much as I loathe clichés (by Mardell's article is about clichés), there is one characteristic aspect of the "modern German psyche" I like: "You can be proud, or should be ashamed, of what you *do*. But pride or shame cannot be attributed for what you *are*."
This makes a lot of sense, in contrast to those among us like to be proud just for *being* born American, British, French, Italian, etc. while sitting in their armchairs, waving flags and posting messages.
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Re 103. jdhatl
Did you know that 50% of the USA ethnic make-up is German?
Do you think this (and the fact that the USA has not lost any major external conflict) has something to do with what you say.
I'm always amazed about the good that the Nazi defeat in 1945 has brought to the Germans attitude towards power. It has freed them from that idea we call "patriotism" whereby our democratically elected leaders convince us to accept their ugliest crimes. The German demo is the only major country that really questions its Government about war. What we do in Britain, USA, France, etc. in opposing war is considered just left-wing folklore, whereas in Germany it is a moral issue. To understand that, look at how many posts coming from Germans (not all of them lefties) express their uneasiness about Afghanistan.
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# 107 Thehoaxofalltime
I have had the misfortune to to have had a couple of my posts referred to the moderators and it perplexed me as I saw nothing wrong with them until I received an e-mail from the BBC pointing out my mistakes. I had to admit, upon rereading my posts, that the moderators were correct in with-holding those posts as it broke their legal responsibilities to other people. For example, I used the word 'lying', on one of my posts, instead of the word 'mistaken'. It is the BBC which publishes these posts and this may lead themselves open to court action.
I thought that 'revisionism' was already here and in certain aspects it is a good thing.
I sometimes post on Brian Taylor's blog but I am put off by some posters who are just too rude for me. These people add nothing to a pleasant exchange of opinions. After all, it would be a boring world if we all thought the same, but at the same time we must leave ourselves open to counter-argument. There is only one thing that I am absolutely sure of and that is that I am unsure about everything. This attitude which some people have that they are right and the world is wrong leads us to totalitarianism and the abolition of free speech, but free speech should bring its own self imposed moderation. The question is: 'Where do you draw the line?'. I have no answer to that but depend on decent people who want to see democracy flourish. A good rule of thumb is an extract from the Scottish bard, Robert Burns, 'To a louse: '0 wad some Power the giftie gie us / To see oursels as ithers see us!'
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Correction to 109.
"50%" should read "15%". According to the latest census (2000) that is the percentage of US-American citizens that declare on of their ancestors to be German.
German ancestry in the USA still emerges as the highest ethnic group.
(Note that citing "English" or "German" or "French" as ancestors must be statistically negatively biased.)
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# 111 lacerniagigante
I am confused to your statement, 'Note that citing "English" or "German" or "French" as ancestors must be statistically negatively biased.' Can you please explain that?
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I do not often have time to read posts to this web site but I am delighted at the knowledge and intelligence displayed in most of the contributions.
Mr Mardell I assume that you are listened to by the BBC Mandarins. Can you not persaude them to produce a peak time programme say weekly where the views expressed in these blogs are highlighted and discussed. Please try and persuade them to produce something to inform people about these issues.
My own view is that the Nation state as a concept is dying. Vested interests are desparately trying to keep the idea alive but more people want independance for their own area within a European family, Scotland is one example there are many others.
Of course National Socialism is quintessentially about the Nation State. It often puzzles me why the correct name for the 'Nazi' party is hardly ever used. It was the N.S.D.A.P. (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) colloquially the National Socialist and Workers Party of Germany. Many Political Parties in Europe are National Socialist in nature, in fact Gordon Brown is steering the Labour Party back to National Socialism in an effort to save the United Kingdom.
I am the child of an English Father and German Mother and am privileged to speak the languanges of both Parents and to have lived in both societies from the 1950's to the present. I do sympathise with all who had to suffer abuse in English society at this time my own experiences were not pleasant.
In Germany the idea under discussion is known as the Nachkriegzeit or post-war time. This one word sums up the idea that almost everything is viewed through the lens of the N.S.D.A.P. time.
This view is particularly promoted in English culture not only by written work but also by the Press and Broadcasters. The BBC is equally guilty. I have never seen a programme about Adenauer or even Angela Merkel whereas the biopics of Adolf Hitler have been numerous.
It is difficult for people who live in the German States to understand this obsession and little wonder that the views of people in the U.K. are coloured when they meet their German cousins. Basil says "Don't mention the war" But off course it must be mentioned because the present has been made by those events, but in mentioning it let us also be truthful and have some perspective.
For myself I am European but I also want strong local government where I live. I get this when I live in Niedersachsen but I do not get it when I live in Shropshire!
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Yes that push and pull - yes and no game left Georgia where it is now. Yes and No is not civilized. When Iranian president says yeees singing it means No! I guess you have something in common here.
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# 114 ingag11
Are you on the correct blog?
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# 113 mikeclarke000
'My own view is that the Nation state as a concept is dying. Vested interests are desparately trying to keep the idea alive but more people want independance for their own area within a European family, Scotland is one example there are many others.'
A very interesting statement which I tend to agree with. One of the problems with nation states is that very few of them were the result of the majority of the people. One only has to look at the debacle in Africa and the Middle East. The imperialistic European countries, mostly but not exclusively, Britain and France when they carved up those regions along the lines of their own national interests have left the world with a monumental problem to solve. I suspect that the only way to solve this national border problem is to allow ALL areas and regions within national borders to be allowed their independence and slowly let those independent countries reform themselves into what I would hope would lead to a world government where there are no countries but just a planet fit for all of mankind to live in peace. However, that is not going to happen and I suspect that it may be the other way around. I think we will have global blocs which will, in the fullness of time, join together to create another type of world government where democracy is just an illusion. Something similar to what we have now but more organised.
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#110, gedguy2,
Thanks you've just explained why whenever I mention the name Ken Livingston and his history I get referred to the moderators (with no explanation in the letter BTW), I shall remember to use the word mistaken or maybe something more descriptive next time he rears his head. I was beginning to think it was the spin doctor Brown has apparently appointed to control anti government spin, note my use of 'apparently' Mr Moderator, LOL.
#111, lacerniagigante,
I'm surprised that ancestry rather than ethnic group would be placed in a USA census question as for many it would be a list. Having done a lot of family history research over the last years it is quite amazing what origins are in most peoples trees and it begs the question how far back do you have to go for the ancestry question, 100 years, 200 years, 1000 years etc In UK trees there are many with overseas origins due to the commonwealth and migration.
#113, mikeclarke000,
There is a lot in your post that is very reasonable but I don't agree that the Nation state as a concept is dying, if anything it is becoming stronger. True you have areas that search for independence but by and large they are small areas with some sort of culture or ethnicity that is different from the Nation state's. What you are proposing as a European family is federalism and in effect what is here in Belgium, and believe me federalism it is not working here. The Belgium federation is in crisis since a long time and the region called Flanders wants ever more independence from the federal government so the concept of a family is a bit misplaced when considering independence in the same breath.
Concerning your experiences when growing up in the UK, I think far too many find prejudices easy to locate and use them for their own purposes as it has been PC to use the 'race' card since the late 60's. Any bad experiences you had were probably more from the conventional bully(s) who pick on anything different, too fat, too thin, too tall, too short, colour, race, no father etc etc the list is very long and it's why various governments have clamped down on bullying.
As for your comments on the BBC and Adenauer or Angela Merkel I have seen programmes on Merkel, but when I worked in Germany 12 years ago I was amazed at the number of old war films and documentaries being diffused in the evenings. In my experience the UK is much less obsessed with the war than I've found here in Belgium or when I was in Germany.
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Just as an aside, is it me or has anyone else noticed that Andrew Marr looks like Vladimir Putin but with a mouth?
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jdhatl, Reference firebombing of Germany cities. Yes it was terrible however it was completely justified given the circumstances that prevailed at the time. And remember the Germans choose to leave their woman and children in the cities, hence the heavy casualties.
You sow the wind you reap the whirlwind....
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gedguy2 @ #118
I was thinking that Andrew has a close affinity with Quark, the Ferengi Bar Owner in "Startrek: Deep Space Nine."
In fact, I believe Quark has been heard to say he is half a Ferengi and half a Marr! ;=)
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lacernigigante @ #109/111
I looked at this Wiki page and the statistics for European Nationality composition of the US population has a Table of figures:
European Americans
It has the following figures (just as examples with no agenda intended upon my part!):
English origins = 49,598,035
German origins = 49,224,146
Irish origins = 40,165,702
Welsh = 1,664,598
Scottish = 10,048,816
You will, of course seem any other European NAtions have contributed to the rich mix of the people that now call themselves Americans.
I know many of my family name are now US Citizens and there is huge interest in tracing roots back to their European source.
Oddly enough, I am not sure I have the same reciprocal interest even though, like Buzet, I am interested in my Family Tree and have researched it back into English history.
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# 117 Buzet23
Your point about Belgium brings forward one of the major problems with federalism; it rules from the top. Confederalism, on the other hand, tends to rule from the bottom. However, I'm always wary of any 'isms'.
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# 120 Menedemus
I wonder if Andrew Marr likes his ears tickled?
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#27 rockystack:
It seems that there are a lot of things that get you hot under the collar. You don't sound like a happy camper.
What's this fixation you have on history? You use it as a sword to show your opponents their ugly past while ignoring your own. It's an old ploy, deflect criticism with criticism.
Okay, let's agree on one thing: nobody is perfect. Can you live with that?
Do not hold against us the sins of the fathers; may your mercy come quickly to meet us, for we are in desperate need.
Psalm 9:2
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Re #121
Mea culpa.
The figures I quoted are for 1980 from the Table to which I linked.
There are also 1990 and 2000 data numbers - I now see where lacernigigate is getting his numbers from.
It is an oddity the 49+ million English ancestry Americans in 2000 had either forgotten (or perhaps the chose to forget?) their English ancestry and fell to 24,509,692
I found the change extraordinary and whatismore, the reduction change was common to all of the European Nations I previously listed except for the Wales where the number of Americans claiming Welsh ancestry increased over the 20 years bucking the trends.
If the number of sheep in America is on the increase we'll know why!
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gedguy2, wow, you are positively drowning in Russian girl-friends! Having sent off one back to Ufa and now equipped with another!
And moreover, you have them talking to each other! :-)
I asked about the letters of reference because of the proverb unrecognised on the spot, yes. But also because when in England and USA I've been introduced to so many Russians. who are not very much Russian Russians, but explain themselves so to the foreigners. That it's a sure bet one will be not, in 90% of the cases.
In fact haven't seen one original abroad so far.
I guess all coming from our quarters recognise that with your knowledge of the area it is simply hopeless to go into details. And tell you "Russian" which will be easier for you to understand, that you have an idea about.
Overall the are 3 meanings of the word.
Russian as nationality and Russian as nationality and Russian as allegiance. See? easy.
OK, "Russian Russian", Russian at pieces and by parts but absolutely Russian (your girl-friend case. and mine, by the way.), and non-Russian at all but Russian - who else?
To cut this crap short there is an idea here that doesn't matter what nationalty - if you have suffered together with - or from - Russia - you become russified, you are Russian. Being Russian is more like state of one's affairs.
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#122, gedguy2,
Um, that's a good question re federalism and confederation and I'm not quite sure of the difference. The only confederation that really sticks in my mind is that of the US Southern states who fought against the Union of the Northern states and as you say it was seemingly a loose form of union of common goals. Maybe that's what the EU should be about as I would certainly like to see it ruled from the bottom rather than the 'teacher knows best' attitude at the moment.
PS. I don't know if Andrew Marr likes his ears tickled but that's not what I would have in mind to do to his ear as his bias is quite annoying sometimes.
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It really isn't hard to see where the hatred o Germans for Serbs come from. Jasenovac concentration camp in northern Bosnia in WWII was a croatian run German inspired camp.
The aims of the fascist croat state were to kill one third of serbs, convert one third to catholicism and therefore be in a position to dominate and subjugate the remain one third of serb people.
How could the croat ustase do this? Why with the help of the German Nazis. They helped design the camp, they supervised the running of the camp and they transported the serbs, jews and gypsies to the camp.
Oh, and in response to who first set up concentration camps, our US brethren should look first to how they treated the native american indians. Genicide is a word that I would not toss around lightly, but if done this century (or even last) there would have been more US war criminals than history currently admits.
Finally, the british bombing policy of WWII was (i) utterly endorsed and supported by the US (ii) simply an adoption of the German 'total war' policy that resulted in the blitz of LOndon and other UK cities and (iii) a legitimate policy that shortened the duration of the war and possibly saved more lives than it took.
There is a lot of bigotry and prejudice on this blog.
People should realise that an entire nation cannot be judged by the actions of a few.
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# 125 Menedemus
'If the number of sheep in America is on the increase we'll know why!'
I'm glad that it was you that said that. I have a brother-in-law who is Welsh therefore I cannot, in all honesty, comment on such a fallacious description of a proud and ancient brother Celt nation, even if it is true. ;-)
# 129 WebAliceinwonderland
I admit to my shame that not only am I a serial monogamist (well, most of the time) but have a fascination towards the beautiful women of Russian origin and, for that matter, just about any other woman on Earth. After growing up in Dundee then you will know why.
If they are talking to each other then they are leaving me alone.
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Menedemus #121
There have been large numbers of inter-ethnic marriages in the US which means your numbers indicate that this number of Americans can trace some of their ancestry to those nations. But most likely have many others strands as well. Large numbers for example emigrated from Eastern Europe. Even Barack Obama is half caucausian so there is nothing like universal racial purity either. One thing to be kept in mind is that America's enormous melting pot effect quickly dilutes whatever baggage one's ancestors brought with them. By the second generation it is hardly noticable except in preferences for certain foods. By the third or fourth generation it is completely gone. I have one friend who is ancestry is half English. He went to London on vacation and hated it. He said he'd never go back. I do not know one single American of Italian descent who has wine with meals. Most I know don't even drink wine except on rare occasions. It may be difficult for people in other nations where this does not occur to appreciate the reality or significance of this. AFAIAC, those in the nations my own grandparents came from have no meaning to me whatsoever and I have no desire to find my long lost relatives or even visit their countries. Many other Americans feel the same way.
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Nanotchka, it seems to me all one needs to find a Russian girlfriend is a bottle of vodka. A plane ticket and a tourist visa will get you a Russian wife, in fact an entire harem if you want to risk one. You'd be amazed at how many Russian women advertise on Western internet dating and other matchmaking services along with Indonesian and Phillipino women in hopes of finding a Western husband. I don't know if they fall victim to the same degree as other women from the former USSR to people traffickers who lure them to illegally enter other countries in expectation of a job and then they find out they will be kept prisoners to function as prostitutes. It is tragic but it indicates a degree of desperation and ignorance which too many women find so compelling they are successfully lured. One I saw from Ukraine who wound up in Detroit on a program about it on MSNBC a week or two ago was stunningly attractive. You have to wonder why she couldn't have made a much better life for herself somewhere else.
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# 127 Buzet23
I agree with you about the EU being ruled from the bottom, but allowances should be made for pan-EU problems that will arise which can only be solved from the top. However, the thought of having a president with such powers like they have in the USA is to me an affront to true democracy.
I tend to side with Jefferson who wanted a more confederate USA than the Federalist system that eventually emerged after the civil war. As far as I can see the civil war was not about slaves, which was a side issue, but about the future political system of the USA. This is only my personal opinion and I would not dream of telling another country what their political democratic system should be. (I thought I'd get that in before any attack by the Americans)
Don't get me on the political bias of BBC reporting. That's why most of my referred posts have been with-held by the moderators. God bless the moderators, I say, and the sooner some of them go to God to get blessed the better. ;-)
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Having lived and worked in Germany since 1977, I have a German wife, dual-nationality son, and many German friends and I feel qualified to at least give a one-sided view of the German people and Germany:
The post war generation born in the fifties and thereafter are not hung up about WW2!
No-one (who counts) denies the atrocities committed in the name of the German people, but if there is one nation on earth who wont let that happen again, it's Germany!
Germans are just as hardworking, lazy, confident, arrogant, ignorant, concerned about local politics, world affairs, their families, their jobs, the financial crisis, Global warming and everyother thing affecting their daily lives and their futures - just like everyone else!
Germany does not consider itself a military world power, but does rightly consider itself a major contributor to world peace and coexistence, a key member of NATO, the EU, the G7(and more) and one of the top nations in world football!
Germany has recognised that they have a key and strategic role to play in the middle of europe, to bring both east and west together. We should be helping them to accomplish this.
Despite the sometimes rough ribaldry, the Germans actually do like the English! Amazingly enough, 63 years after the war, the feelings are beginning to be mutual!
The absolute majority of the German people are friendly, civilised, intelligent, positive, respectable, reliable, peaceful, responsible and basically good people proud of their country's achievements and standing in the world community. In short, they're the kind of people we should be associating with!
Germany is also a beautiful country and is worth a long stay (I still feel as if I'm on holiday).
Do I like the Germans? No more or less than I like my fellow Brits!
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#129 gedguy2,
you mentioned to Alice "If they are talking to each other then they are leaving me alone", heaven forbid, what do they teach you guys up there in Scotland. It's two girls talking together that scares the life out of me as I never know what dastardly plan they'll come up with next, LOL, and daughters are the worst of all.
#132, with regard to a confederacy rather than federal Europe, I think the limiting factor will as always, be the greed (need) for power of the people we seem to spawn as politicians these days throughout Europe. I can't see the current crop of leeches of being capable of accepting anything other than the total domination of the EU by themselves.
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What winds me up about the ridiculous ww2-triumphalism in Britain and America,and the looking down at Germany`s past,is that it`s all based on court-historian`s view of the past 60 years.
Even after all this time,certain extremely pernicious myths are recited as if they are unalterable facts.
9/11 and the Iraq war should have proved to everyone that the media-produced reality regarding current and past events is criminally fraudulent.
I would like to say to the German people that here in England,there are an increasing number of well-read individuals who know full about all the ww2 lies and slander about your country,and that there is no evidence to back them up.
The Germans are a dignified and honourable people who, although viscious,unwarranted abuse has been heaped them,stoicly await the day when truth is brought out into the open.
Fraternal regards to my German kin.
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Thehoaxof alltime @ #135
I feel thois overwhelming need to ask!
You wrote, "Even after all this time, certain extremely pernicious myths are recited as if they are unalterable facts."
Pray do tell us. It seems so awful to be left hanging in the air wondering what these pernicious myths might be?
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Have been away (still am, writing this in a bar) and have not read all of the above except for tle last (135) post and Mark's original entry. Have to say Mark's entry is interesting in exploring current views of German's about the past.
My own view is that the Germans I have met have been lovely people and enjoyed sharing a drink with. Discussion about the war did not arise, nor was there any reason it should. I do not think I would enjoy the same drink with poster 135 (but have missed the build up so do no know what led to such an extraordinary outburst)
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I want to point out that the recent spate anti-Americanism in Europe started in Germany during the re-election campaign of Gerhard Schroeder BEFORE the invasion of Iraq. Europeans used every reason they could find to bash America including for example global warming. But hypocrites that they are, not only didn't most of them live up to the promises they signed on to in Kyoto, they are now talking about putting reduction of GHGs on the sidelines because of economic reasons. The Italians are among the strongest proponents of that. I don't see comparable Italy bashing in Europe. Germany along with the populations of just about all of Europe proved it is no friend of America even if some of its governments initially supported and contributed to the invasion of Iraq. In Spain and Italy, governments were overthrown at least partly on account of it while in Great Britain, at least half the population was opposed to it according to polls. It is time for the US to disentangle itself from Europe and leave it to decide its fate by itself without outside help or interference from America. If they want to cooperate with each other, fine. If they want to go back to killing each other, that's fine with me too. I just don't think we should try to stop them anymore.
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#135, Thehoaxofalltime,
What tosh you speak about triumphalism, the one thing that struck me when I worked in Germany and when talking to other Germans or half Germans that I've known is that they (or their parents) were embarrassed about having done nothing to have stopped Hitler's rise. Likewise I'm sure that the same is true in many other countries that have allowed the rise of a dictator and we're seeing that now in Zimbabwe and maybe in the future in Venezuela. The mutual admiration between the UK and Germany was always there and even my ex-WWII RAF parents showed that despite fighting them. The fact that it is very hard to stop a dictatorship is another factor and I doubt the German peoples could have done much about Hitler, just as we're finding it hard to stop the rise of an undemocratic EU that could easily become a dictatorship.
The one thing you did say that I agree with is that nobody should ever believe either the history books or the media, both are the victims of spin and/or the authors personal views. I've always preferred to talk to people who actually experienced WWII, whether they be UK or Germany or occupied Europe, that way there is a chance you will learn what it was like. Talking about truth or invention of truth is an over simplification of the many facets of that war or in fact any war. We just need to look at our current politicians and the credit crunch to see that, I think it would be hard to find anyone who believes the word of Brown these days as it's just spin to deflect from the reality.
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# 134 buzet23
When I was younger I always believed that it was me that got the women. It took a small and insignificant incident with my daughter, who was 15 at the time, to realise that it was the other way around. It is us that are preyed upon by the women. They just have the technique in letting us think that it is us doing the chasing. I have never really understood how they have managed to do that. It was such a blow to my macho street cred.
If you ever think that you are going to stop women from speaking to each other; good luck. Best to let them get on with it.
I used to think, and still harbour the idea in a forgotten corner of my mind, that communism is a fantastic political system. However, your point on the greed of man for power is why, alas, it will never work. If human interference could be taken out of the loop then I might resurrect the idea.
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*139,
"Tosh"?
Really?
So there is no popular culture of "we won the war!"and
"Britain is the best" type attitudes amongst our fellow Britons?
I wholly agree many pour scorn on such attitudes,but they exist in abundance,and they are well-fed by a mendacious financial/media/political establishment looking to keep their fraudulent historical narrative from being exposed.
We do not live in a free and democratic country.It is a sham.
Of course only certain opinions are strang verboten,as they were in the National socialist totalitarian regime that we hypocritically pat ourselves on the back about defeating.
Meanwhile,communism is alive and well for some(?) reason although in less visible guise.
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gedguy2 @140
Just a personal observation.
It is not human greed that is the problem with the failure of communism or any large society - it is the inherent nature of some people to dominate others and others to behave like sheep.
I have often thought that the big failing in British society is that for everything that you want to do as a free person - smoke, drink, have children, not have children, go to church or not go to church, go for walks, fish, play golf, watch football, vote or not vote, eat in one type of restaurant or eat in another, want to watch this film or that film, make love, read a book of your choice, or whatever . . . . . there is always somebody on TV or Radio or some peer-pressure group or some do-gooder or some opinionated guru who wants to tell the world how they should lead their lives, how they should spend their money or what to do!
The world just seems to be full of bullies who want to bully other people into doing things according to their instructions or ideals.
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Thehoaxofalltime @ #141
Perhaps you just haven't got around to my earlier question at #136 but here is another question whilst I wait with bated breath upon my earlier request.
You wrote, " . . . fraudulent historical narrative from being exposed.
What is this "fraudulent historical narrative" that you mention but do not elucidate upon?
Do please tell. I am intrigued to know more of what you think.
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#44 spot on!
#1 maybe you didn't actually speak to Germans in the balkans, but to some of the million Croats or Bosnians who had to flee from their Serb 'friends' to Germany, Austria, Denmark etc. and have since returned.
I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't too fond of the Serbs.
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*143,
"What is this "fraudulent historical narrative" that you mention but do not elucidate upon?
Do please tell. I am intrigued to know more of what you think"
I would dearly love to,but certain things are not allowed by the moderators.
There are revisionist forums where you can find the answers to the questions you`ve asked,but alas,I`m not even permitted to post their names.
And yet:
Article 19 of the UN Human Rights Charter explicitly states:
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without
interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
Some freedom of speech,no?
Type ww2 controversies into google and you should be able to eventually stumble across the right one.
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# 142 menedemus
I did say that it was the greed of man for POWER and that was agreeing with # 134 Buzet23.
Everything else you posted I can only agree wholeheartedly with.
# 141 Thehoaxofalltime
I'm having difficulty agreeing with you that this view is prevalent in British society. When I was younger I would have to agree with that statement because at that time it was true, but we have moved on from there. To many of the younger generation, here and in Germany, this was a war that happened over sixty years ago. It is history for them. It was history for me too when I was born and I would have known little about the war except for the profusion of British and Hollywood movies and that wonderful series on WWII mentioned earlier; 'The world at war'.
I am sure that there are still some people about the place who may still hold those views but I don't believe majority know or even care.
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WebAliceinwonderland, please stop posting here. Please!!! I am falling off my chair laughing... I just love that dry Russian humour... but your posts are very true as well, mostly. :-)
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The analysis regarding Germany lacks a bit a long term view. Germany is in some respects to day in similar position as it had been in the decades after the Thirty Years' War. The teachings and the consequences for Germany are quite the same: Germany will certainly suffer in European war and therefore a policy of cooperation to avoid such a war has absolute predominance. This is some respect also true for German's internal affairs, were the postwar constitution took great care to avoid to much power in one institution and established a complex system of check-and-balances, similar to the constitutional settlements in the Peace of Westphalia 1648 and the "Recessus Imperii Novissimus" of 1654.
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Re post 145, Theoaxofalltime, I see on another BBC thread you have revealed the source of your information as www.vho.org
Not in a position to really explore it but from a quick check it appears to be full of utter drivel written by holocaust deniers and far right 'historians' . Do you honestly believe in what is written there?
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*149,
Different moderators explains why I could post there presumably,but not here.
Now the cards are on the table,yes,I`ve looked at both sets of evidence,and I know what I see.
The "official" version is un-scientific tosh,and the revisionist position is firmly rooted in factual evidence.
"Not in a position to really explore it but from a quick check it appears to be full of utter drivel written by holocaust deniers and far right 'historians' . Do you honestly believe in what is written there?"
So,purely on a cursory viewing you can come to that sweeping conclusion?
Reading books by covers come`s to mind(although their presentation of the material is first-rate).
A hypothetical question for you:
If it was against the law to publicly state your disbelief in the moon landings,would you think that was a bit fishy to say the least?
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I# 149 jordanbasset
I have just gone onto this site you have mentioned. Here is an extract:
Since 1066, this castle was used by William the Conqueror as the first stronghold against the saxons. From here, he conquered England, exterminated the Saxon upper class, and turned the Anglo-Saxon language into English, a mixed language of Norman (north west France) and medieval Saxon (North Germany). This castle ruins are today considered to be the symbol of the very beginning of English history, which 1000 years later, during the 20th century, led to the mutual German-English (Saxon-Anglo-Saxon) self-destruction. It is the goal of XXX Publishers to make both the Saxons and the Anglo-Saxons (Germans and Amero-English) become aware of this tragedy from a 1000-year old perspective, by making accessible to a world-wide audience the true history of this mutual self-laceration both, which is being suppressed today.
May the ruins of Hastings be a symbol that both the Saxons and the Anglo-Saxons might succeed in rising from their historical ashes.
A couple of points that this site neglets to tell you:
1. The anglo-saxons invaded us. They were not and never have been the indigenous population of the British isles. They came here after the Romans left. I think it was Caesar who called the inhabitants here Britains. Therefore, the anglo-saxons are not Britains because they were not here at that time.
2. The Normans, like the anglo-saxons were just another Nordic tribe that originated in Scandanavia. If you want to go back further in history then the blue eyed people seem to have originated from around the black sea area and then moved on to Scandanavia. They were possibly one of the Iranian tribes that inhabited that area, like the Alans and possibly the Scythians.
Now that this is said I do accept the anglo-saxons as British as I accept the africans that have moved here and the Chinese and anyone else who wants to settle here.
I think this site is highly suspect.
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149 jordanbasset
I have just gone onto this site you have mentioned. Here is an extract:
Since 1066, this castle was used by William the Conqueror as the first stronghold against the saxons. From here, he conquered England, exterminated the Saxon upper class, and turned the Anglo-Saxon language into English, a mixed language of Norman (north west France) and medieval Saxon (North Germany). This castle ruins are today considered to be the symbol of the very beginning of English history, which 1000 years later, during the 20th century, led to the mutual German-English (Saxon-Anglo-Saxon) self-destruction.
It is the goal of XXX Publishers to make both the Saxons and the Anglo-Saxons (Germans and Amero-English) become aware of this tragedy from a 1000-year old perspective, by making accessible to a world-wide audience the true history of this mutual self-laceration both, which is being suppressed today.
May the ruins of Hastings be a symbol that both the Saxons and the Anglo-Saxons might succeed in rising from their historical ashes.
A couple of points that this site neglets to tell you:
1. The anglo-saxons invaded us. They were not and never have been the indigenous population of the British isles. They came here after the Romans left. I think it was Caesar who called the inhabitants here Britains. Therefore, the anglo-saxons are not Britains because they were not here at that time.
2. The Normans, like the anglo-saxons were just another Nordic tribe that originated in Scandanavia. If you want to go back further in history then the blue eyed people seem to have originated from around the black sea area and then moved on to Scandanavia. They were possibly one of the Iranian tribes that inhabited that area, like the Alans and possibly the Scythians.
Now that this is said I do accept the anglo-saxons as British as I accept the africans that have moved here and the Chinese and anyone else who wants to settle here.
I think this site is highly suspect.
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Logn takie passed since WW II , many young Germans do not know what their grandpa did .
But still some of them zare so brazen that they demand repaying for what they left in the area which belonged before the war .
I mean Poland .
Germans distoryed Poland so heavily , they stole so much from Poland and still they dare demad anything from Poland .
Why are they so agressive .
Some of them .
West Europe even do not imagine of the scale of damages , cruelty and criminal deeds which German committed during the WW II in Poland .
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#149 - jordanbasset
There has been an extended discussion on Paul Mason's blog this week which embraced the subject of holocaust denial. You can find it HERE
It will be a waste of everyone's time to rehearse the arguments again. Suffice it say that I cannot, without incurring the wrath of the moderators adequately express my complete contempt for those who seek to revise history to suit their own political viewpoints. The holocaust is so well documented, not least by the perpetrators themselves, that denial is futile.
It is not only insulting to the memory of the millions who were mindlessly slaughtered but it is incredibly unjust to the post war generation of Germans who have, with tremendous courage, faced up to the reality of their recent past, attempted to pay penance and then to move on. Decent folk will have no problem recognising that the Nazi period was an aberration which temporarily clouded the landscape. What happened was monstrous and of an unbelievable magnitude but it is over.
Theoaxofalltime - It was Voltaire who wrote that he may not agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it. Amen to that. But please do not promote the propaganda of historical revisionism and quote the UN Charter of Human Rights at the same time. The Charter in no small measure came about because of the horrors of the 30s and 40s. To use it as justification to deny those events is a travesty.
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Mavrelius, @131 (everybody here, pls do look at this glorious No 131, before reading further), finally !
you've been lured out of the cave, with another nice piece on Russians.
And Russian girls, in particular !
The previous two cold wars didn't teach you anything (for those not in the knowing, we've just waged one latest Russo-American war at Mark Mardells', and MAII lost, on behalf of the USA.
Surrender conditions signed in the presence of several countries in the blog, as far as I remember.) (And I got Rockefeller skating rink - two of them, in fact, - in reparations).
Now, my young she-wolf teeth can do with some sharpening practice...
at your grizzly fur-coats...
Here is a story to you. When I was young and beautiful (approximately the same as now) I had an American fiancee.
Or, rather, he had self-appointed himself to the position. And kept in this crazy mind for? let me think? about 7 years plus.
What a charming fellow he was, dear to remember. So many suitcases of presents brought over to St. Petersburg. Somehow I didn't like either, "chocolates and flowers only", you know. So some he was spectacularly in scandal throwing away onto St. Petersburg streets, some I don't know. may be carried back home.
The lines along which he spoke were exactly the same as yours, only with a slightly different turn of the meaning:
"Why? Oh why on earth don't you love me? All our newspapers at home are full of ads of slav girls willing to marry an American!
I have extraordinary rich choice! I can pick and take any girl!"
I was replying of course, like, I am glad to hear that, absolutely confident in your happy future, so ? can you please kind of disappear from under my window? stop scaring neighbours at nights with your unmusical moans and complaints?
At times it helped, and he was indeed packing back home, damning all cold-hearted russky-s. but in a year would materialise again, in the same old tune.
What a show we were walking the Nevsky Prospekt! he developed a habit to suddenly fly from the US and wait for me by my work exit doors. Since all my friends couldn't stand his complaints any longer, and didn't know what to reply to his passionate letters asking for help and advice and to influence me somehow. and my parents were also by that time startling at the very word "Michael".
(in the beg. they kind of cherished hopes to get rid of me, and to USA on top, but not for long).
So, he'd wait for me at the office door, and then doggedly walk behind at about 20 metre distance, scaring all passer-by-s, and catching them by the sleeve! "Look! Look at her! Look at me! What am I to do! She doesn't want to even look at me! I flew all the way from the USA! I am bankrupt! I work only for the airline tickets and your blasted visa fees! And all for nothing! Russians! Anybody here! help!
All this in most nasty squeek and in English, so poor passer-bies were dashing away from him. And others who caught the angle were joining the triumphal procession of white elephants, in hysterical laughter. Cracking most unelegant jokes. And I only wished how to learn to be able to fall through the ground.
I don't think I pity him. In my mind, he was absolutely awkward, unmannered, out of all proportions, intolerable and absolutely wrong don't know how to explain in all parameters at once. All my friends, girls who met him - had the same opinion.
American and good-looking - yes, good.
But that he is totally alien and absolutely wrong - no denial either.
MAII you'd love to listen this explanation, put forward by one of my friends, how come - seemingly allright - and simultaneously all wrong.
She said "it must be because these capitalists - they have money. So when they get married - they have money matters in consideration. or some of their ancestors had, before. In such marriages children are pale. "from poor love - you'll have a pale child".
And we don't have money, poor like Italians, and never had, in history. So Russians marry for love.
That's why we are so good-looking ! "
So I don't know Maverlius which ads you are reading over there at home - and good luck of course.
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To Regalvalkyrie :
You wrote " attitude from other nations "
Which nations
Maybe Polish ?
Over 1000 of history of the Polish state the Germans were agressive against Poland they killed , stole , destroyed .
Please be aware of the Teutonic Knights Order what they did during their history in East Prussia .
They ought to have promoted Christianity but they murdered Polish
Lithuanians and other small nationa .
Finally they became the instigator of partition of Polish-Lituanian Kingdom
, together with Russia and Austria .
Then they attacked Polish area during WW I - killed , stole and destroyed and the same but many times stronger during the WW II .
Attitude ?
To defend ourselves is anything wrong ?
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#155 - WebAliceinwonderland
Aice,
CIA recruitment drive, I expect :-)
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Re post 152, Gedguy2, thank you for confirming what my quick check showed, that the site is utter drivel, it is useful to show how ludicrous these sites are -
Re post 143, Threnodio, agree
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# 153 angrusz
This was the past. It has gone now. Try and remember that Poland once had an empire and I am sure that the poles committed atrocities then. I don't see you saying anything about that.
# 155 WebAliceinwonderland
Can you ask MAII the name of the magazine he's been reading. I might be interested.
Oops. I've been referred again by the mods. I might have to move onto Gedguy3. Strange too, because it was the same as # 152
# 154 Threnodio
I heartily concur.
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*152,
First of all,the CODOH website is a forum for many views.Some will be distasteful(Like the Labour party site:)).
Secondly,that bbc thread you sited is far from a "debate",there is only one chap arguing against the "orthodoxy",with a pack of committed ideologues throwing insults at him/her.
I recommend looking into Ernst Zundel,
His trial,and the embarressment of the star "witnesses",and the judge`s blatant partisanship.
Much of the evidence was disallowed for some(?) reason.
He`s still in prison 20 years later.
Must be VERY seditious thoughts he expressed.
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#160 - Thehoaxofalltime
This would be the same Zundel who believes that the Germans invented flying saucers, that 'Schindler's List' is Zionist propaganda and that the Canadian authorities are Salem witch hunters, would it?
Right. Pass the fruitcake, someone!
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# 160 Thehoaxofalltime
If it is Ernst Christof Friedrich Zundel you are talking about he was only jailed in 2007 in Germany for 5 years.
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*161,
The flying saucers stuff was a light-hearted whimsy(no doubt to help pay for his much more important ventures).
Is that all you`ve got to throw at him?
Don`t you think his treatment by the Canadian and German governments has been nothing short of witchcraft hysteria?
You`ve stayed away from my earlier question I notice,which was:
If it was against the law to express disbelief about the moon landings,would you think that was a bit fishy,or even a tad sinister?
Truth welcomes debate,lies need to be shielded.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
*162,
He`s been in and out of jail for 20 years,solely because of his revisionist beliefs.
Do a bit more research.
Mr Toben is another recent high-profile victim of the "thought-crime" laws,but there are hundreds of others.
Look up Robert Faurrison,Jurgen Graf,Rudolf Germar.
All of them professional,scientific, people,who have become political prisoners in what are laughingly called free countries.
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#163 - Thehoaxofalltime
I thought I had made myself clear. Obviously not. I will not be drawn into a debate on this subject and I will not insult our German friends by hijacking the thread to ponder an irrelevance.
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*161,
Scindler`s list is indeed a fictional account of Oskar Schindler`s war-time activities.Spielberg makes no claim to it being a truthful story.
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Nanotchka, it's up to BBC's moderators whether or not you get the benefit of my observations and wisdom in posting 164. I'm not going to try to figure out what their problem is with it.
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To Jordanbasset :
Holoucast refers only to the tragedy of Jews .
Great majority of them lived in Poland
But the problem of Germans' misdeed and cruelty do not refers only Jews .
The whole country of Poland and many Poles were killed and robbed and expelled from their houses .
The Nazi time is not over .
There is so called Prussian .... AG which demands - even from the European Court of Human Rights - to be repaid for what they left in the area which were included into todays' Polish state .
For us - Poles - it is not over
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# 165 Thehoaxofalltime
I suggest you re read your own post for you said: 'He`s still in prison 20 years later.'
This could be interpreted as him having served a total of 20 years in prison.
You also neglected to tell us that, in Canada, his sentence was thrown out by their own freedom of speech laws. So that kind of destroys your theory that he was mistreated by the Canadians. When he escaped to the USA he was thrown out and guess where he tried to get back into? Yes, Canada, the very place that you accuse him of being mistreated. He tried to return there by claiming refugee status. He failed. He was then returned to Germany where he was born and this was the place where he was jailed.
Strange that he held those views about the Jews considering his grandparents were Jewish. That must have came as a bit of a surprise to him.
There is a difference between someone who doesn't believe in the moon landings and someone who denies that not only six million Jews died but numerous gypsies and mentally retarded people, amongst others. I have no time for this neo-nazi propaganda.
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117. At 11:04am on 02 Nov 2008, Buzet23 wrote:
'What you are proposing as a European family is federalism and in effect what is here in Belgium, and believe me federalism it is not working here.'
You can not use a Federal system as a sticking plaster to hold together a Kingdom against the will of the people.
169. At 10:24pm on 02 Nov 2008, angrusz wrote:
'For us - Poles - it is not over'
Italian Soldiers came to our land belonging to us the Cornovii. They enslaved us stole our resources and forced us to obey their laws. We will never forget even though this was nearly 2000 years ago. Anyone in Europe can think like this, the problem is that it creates more strife.
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# 169 Angrusz
I see you have not replied to my 159 post. Would you accept that all empire builders have to answer for their atrocities? Remember that part of Poland used to belong to Germany (the Germans are making no claim to these areas) and before that it belonged to Prussia.
I also don't see you blaming the Russians for the atrocities they also committed against the Poles. Why not?
Why are you trying to blame a generation of Germans for acts that did not commit. There are very few of them left and soon there will be none left. Let sleeping dogs lie.
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@157 threnodio
my father said the same. that it's after him. remember this greatly annoyed me.
but then this is was dad thought ab each and every foreigner who ever showed up within un-aided vision, throughout his life. and you can't dispute, with such an attitude you'll never be wrong.
@159 gedguy2
the very titles violated the house rules. or maybe MAII tried to post the pictures as well (see @168)
@168 Mavrelius, I noticed. and it's the second time. I will think you took your better form again and confessed and complained to the mods about yourself.
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#172 - gedguy2
I am afraid you will see a lot of that. There are polarized views, some of them very deep rooted. Some are based on sound historical fact, others on sheer prejudice but what they have in common is an unwillingness to let go of the past and move on. Try to present them with forward looking and positive ideas and they either resort to invective or go silent on you.
I live in eastern Europe as you know, you have had half the women in Russia and we have our marvelous Alice to make fun of us. There is good and bad everywhere. I would let it go.
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*170,
So Ernst Zundel was`nt mistreated?
From several revisionist sites:
Zundel?s two lengthy trials ? the 1985 trial lasted two months, and the 1988 trial lasted four months ? have been the closest thing anywhere to full scale debates on the Holocaust issue. For the first time ever, ?Holocaust survivors? and Holocaust historians were closely and critically questioned under oath about their claims and views.
Zundel was found guilty in the 1985 trial, but the verdict was set aside by the provincial appeals court. It ruled that the judge in that trial had, among other things, given improper instructions to the jury, and had improperly excluded defense evidence. In May 1988, at the conclusion of the second Zundel trial, the jury declared him guilty. A few days later, he was sentenced to nine months imprisonment.
On appeal, Canada?s Supreme Court threw out the conviction, declaring on August 27, 1992, that the archaic ?false news? law under which he had been convicted was a violation of the country?s Charter of Rights. This was not only a personal vindication by Canada?s highest court; Ernst Zundel secured an important victory for the rights of all Canadians.
During the 42 years he lived in Canada, Ernst Zundel was never convicted of a crime. He was, however, repeatedly a victim of violence and hate. He survived three assassination attempts, including by arson and pipe bomb. He?s also endured years of legal harassment and repeated jailings.
After more than four decades in Canada, including a failed effort to acquire Canadian citizenship, he moved to the United States, where in January 2000 he married Ingrid Rimland.
His wife, a gifted writer and noted author in her own right, was born in an ethnic German Mennonite community in Ukraine. As a child she and her family were victims of Soviet rule and the ravages of World War II. After the war she lived for a time in Paraguay and Canada, and then for years in California. Ingrid Rimland holds a doctoral degree in education, and is a naturalized US citizen.
On February 5, 2003, Ernst Zundel was arrested at their quiet home in the mountain region of eastern Tennessee. He was seized on the pretext that he had violated immigration regulations, or had missed an interview date with US immigration authorities, even though he had entered the US legally, was married to an American citizen, had no criminal record, and was acting diligently, and in full accord with the law, to secure status as a permanent legal resident.
After being held for two weeks, he was deported to Canada. For two years ? from mid-February 2003 to March 1, 2005 ? he was held in solitary confinement in the Toronto West Detention Centre, on the pretext that he is a threat to national security.
His arrest and detention generated wide media attention. A few Canadian newspapers, including Toronto?s prestigious Globe and Mail, and several independent analysts, acknowledged the injustice of his incarceration on an empty pretext.
The Canadian Association for Free Expression (CAFE), a free speech advocacy group, fought for Zundel?s release. ?Mr. Zundel is quite literally a political prisoner,? said CAFE director Paul Fromm, who also served as Zundel?s legal representative in his detention hearings. ?He is being held in solitary confinement solely for the non-violent expression of his political views.?
On March 1, 2005, Zundel was deported to Germany, just as Jewish groups had been demanding. Since then he has been held in the Mannheim prison were he faces years of imprisonment for the ?thought crime? of ?denying the Holocaust.?
Western counties are not free.
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Hi threnodio, I'm just wondering about the id of Thehoaxofalltime, could this be the new spin doctor of Gordon Brown sent to spy on our blogs and counter anti government postings. One way would be to come out with the utter drivel this guy has said here so as to distract us from the true hoax of all time i.e. Browns insistence that the economy of the UK is fine and well situated to survive the financial crisis. That is a real hoax and Brown is certainly in denial about the truth, that he has wrecked the economy, spent the gold and destroyed our pension funds. Now the bubble is beginning to burst that his marvellous solution is not so marvellous, and what do we hear, his mates in the EU, Sarko etc are talking him up as a saviour.
What is the moral of this, lets not waste our time on denial cranks whilst there are real and current hoaxes in abundance out there within the EU establishment.
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Hi Buzet,
I have pasted a link over on Robinson's blog which you may find interesting in this context. Can't remember the url though but you will find on page 2 of the current thread.
On the other subject, have you noticed that some people, when they have nothing useful you add copy and paste huge chunks direct from other web sites? I mention this in passing because, when they do it, quotation marks reproduce as question marks. It's a dead giveaway! You may find an example quite close by if you care to take a look:-)
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56. At 4:18pm on 01 Nov 2008, threnodio wrote:
"#51 - SuffolkBoy2
It's the language, not the sentiment. Couched in reasonable, well argued terms, many will see that you have a point but going on about the 'EU dictatorship' and the maligning those who don't agree with you as 'EU lovers' does your cause no favours in my view."
1. For this post I may use the term "EU"-supporters .
I don't see why calling somebody an "EU"-lover is maligning them. The standard word is Europhile.
Europhile = A lover of the Euro?
I love Euros and am willing to accept donations in Euros.
Europhile = A lover of Europe? I love Europe. I hate the "EU".
"-phile" means lover, I believe. "Europhile" is used to mean somebody who loves the "EU" which is why I refer to "EU"-lovers.
The word Europhile which seems to me to be misused.
Similary, I hate the "EU" but am not a "Eurosceptic." I am anti-"EU".
2. "EU" dictatorship? I've been told off by a Tory candidate for calling the "EU" a dictatorship.*
But I know that there are people in Germany and Austria who consider the "EU" to be a dictatorship. Some in Austria have compared the forcing of the Lisbon Treaty upon unwilling Austrians with Hitler's invasion of Austria. That does not prove they are right. It just indicates that the "EU" has at least a problem in that the "EU" is perceived to be a dictatorship - ,presumably they would say, wrongly.
However I do believe the "EU" is a dictatorship. We were promised a referendum on the new treaty. We are now not going to get it. MPs were elected on that promise. Our democratic rights have been denied us. We are in a dictatorship. I insist on my right to continue to refer to the "EU" as a dictatorship.
You are being over sensitive when it comes to your beloved "EU". In general, "EU"-supporters are over-sensitive about their "EU" but totally insensitive when it comes to the wishes and rights of the British people and of the other peoples in Europe.
You have said that you would welcome referenda in the UK. You must know that without a referendum in the UK there will be loads and loads of trouble. You should now be attempting to get the "EU" to give us a referendum. You should be outraged about the way the British people have been treated, even as an "EU"-supporter. Are you?
Please will you now use your time and energy to try to get us a referendum?
*Which itself is an indication of the worthlessness of voting Tory if you are anti-"EU"
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From Mr Mardell`s blog:
"But I am beginning to see that a sort of national humility is a key part of the German soul."
Yes,but then they have had a lot of "encouragement" in that regard have they not?
Not least from the fine,upstanding,honest, purveyor of truth that is the BBC.
Whatever happened to that Kuwaiti woman who actually lived in America who said the evil Iraqi soldiers had thrown the Kuwaiti babies out of their cots?
Never mind,that was yesterday`s "news".
Now it`s the turn of the satanic Russians oppressing the Israeli mercenaries in Georgia :)
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*176,
"Hi threnodio, I'm just wondering about the id of Thehoaxofalltime, could this be the new spin doctor of Gordon Brown sent to spy on our blogs and counter anti government postings."
Do you mean to say that governments and other groups employ teams of keyboard warriors to spin/spread disinformation?
Sounds like something I`ve been reading about recently:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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The best that can be said of the Germans is that they haven't bothered anybody lately. The same cannot be said of the Russians.
The Europeans think Barack Obama will save them. Wow have they ever got it wrong.
Nanotchka, now that you have won the cold war, you will be expected to take care of us as is required under the Geneva conventions. We are ten trillion dollars in debt, our infrastructure is crumbling apart from neglect, our banking system is broken...and oh yes by the way if the carbon tax cap and trade scheme goes into effect and farmers sell their credits to the power companys and stop farming, you will also have to feed all 300 million of us. We could also use a few million barrels a day of your oil given our required rate of consumption to sustain our economy and avoid going even further into debt. As the old saying has it, to the victor goes the spoils....or in this case should I say the spoiled. Looks like the winners turned out to be the losers.
I hope they don't censor this one too.
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The Nazi time is not over .
There is so called Prussian .... AG which demands - even from the European Court of Human Rights - to be repaid for what they left in the area which were included into todays' Polish state .
For us - Poles - it is not over
You realised that the European Court of Human Rights just made a decision on this:
In December 2006, the corporation filed 23 individual claims against Poland in the European Court of Human Rights, an action which has been condemned by both the Polish and German governments.[4] The Polish government decided that the submissions warranted a comment by Anna Fotyga, the Polish Minister of the Foreign Affairs who "express [her] deepest concern upon receiving the information about a claim against Poland submitted by the Prussian Trust to the European Court of Human Rights".[5]
Contributory factors to the special quality of relations between Germany and Poland include the former?s unconditional admission of guilt for the Second World War and its renouncement of subsequent material claims after the war. The Federal Government supports neither private restitution claims by expellees nor complaints like that submitted by the private Prussian Trust to the European Court of Human Rights. Federal Chancellor Merkel has repeatedly reaffirmed this position. (The German Federal Foreign Office, March 2008)[6]
On 9 October 2008 the European Court of Human Rights declared the case of Preussische Treuhand v. Poland inadmissible, because
The Court would recall that Article 1 of Protocol No. 1 cannot be interpreted as imposing any general obligation on the Contracting States to return property which was transferred to them before they ratified the Convention. Nor does this provision impose any restrictions on the Contracting States? freedom to determine the scope of property restitution or rehabilitation laws. The States are free to choose the conditions under which they agree to restore property rights of former owners and the Convention imposes no specific obligation on them to provide redress for wrongs or damage caused prior to their ratification of the Convention ...
Believe me, it's over
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All I know is that:
1. Bavarian beer is second only to Belgium's :)
2. Cologne has a fantastic music shop
3. Munich is one of the most amazing places I have ever visited. It is the first time I have ever seen people take a newspaper from a distributor then pay for it. Try that in Leeds!
4. it takes ages to get from Luxembourg to Prague.
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I have read all the comments with great interest.
Just to clarify: I am German, having said this, my grandfather was Swiss, my grandmother from the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, my daughters are German-Italian and German-British, half my family is American and I have lived most of my adult life in Germany, Italy, the UK and now the US - so I would describe myself as a world citizen, rather than simply German.
Having lived abroad I have experienced first hand that Germany is most of the time immediately associated with National Socialism, secondly beer and thirdly luxury cars.
Whilst at times it can be mildly annoying to be viewed through pre-conceived notions, I have never taken criticism referring to my history personally. I do not feel that I should have to take responsibility for something that happened before my time and without my involvement. It would be equivalent to expecting the descendants of for example a serial killer, to feel responsible for the atrocities committed by an ancestor. Neither of us had any influence who we were born as. Nationality or 'forebears' are not personal merit , but the luck of the draw, to put it rather flippantly.
Personally I am proud of how we have dealt with our history. It is not being denied and sincere steps have been taken, to ensure that something like this will not repeat itself.
I would also like to reply to some of the posters that seem to think Germany is not pulling her weight with regards to current conflicts, i.e. Iraq. I believe it might have something to do with the fact that we do not have a professional Army, our's is a Conscript Army. For anyone that is interested in knowing more about how this works...here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany
My philosophy to this article and the subject is, that there is no nation that hasn't a part of history they are less than proud of. It is how this history is dealt with afterwards that should be judged and in this respect Germany has done well, I believe!
Last but not least, a compliment to all posters. I am very pleasantly surprised how civilized and mature the discussion is on here - not something that can be said of all boards :-)
Greetings from the 'global hybrid' in Seattle.
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# 174 Threnodio
' you have had half the women in Russia'
If only that were true, 'sigh'. As to 'our Alice' I told my girlfriend her story about the German fascists visiting her school. After she stopped laughing she tried to tell me that would never have happened in her time, but she agreed about not being able to use the swimming pool. 'You were lucky', I said, 'we used to dream about having a swimming pool in our school.' Where I came from, we had to wait for it to rain before we were able to swim.
I'm not going to bother to respond to neo-nazi posts. I'm just wasting my time.
# 173 WebAliceinwonderland
I think it inconsiderate of the mods not to allow the pictures. How is one to decide if there are no pictures!
Just to add a small and insignificant aside. Some posters have complained about the British and their snide remarks against the Germans about WWII. I would have to correct them and say that it was a mostly English attitude. When I arrived in London as a young man from the back of beyond I was shocked at being insulted by the English at nearly every occasion. I must confess that I lost my temper with them a few times which resulted in fists flying. By chance I happened to meet my brother who had lived down in London for years before I turned up. I complained to him about the insulting treatment by the English and he asked me what were they saying.
I told him that they were calling me a 'sweaty sock' and I was not going to take this off them. When he stopped laughing he pointed out to me that 'Sweaty sock' meant cockney for 'Jock' (Scottish). I felt highly embarrassed at this misunderstanding of their language and humour. I soon learned to join in on the 'banter' and eventually made some good friends.
The moral of this little story is that the English humour tended to revolve around 'banter' and self deprecation. Once you get past this you will find that they are, in the majority, quite a funny race of people.
I suspect that what the foreigners see as insulting behaviour from the English is, in reality, their humour. The English will quite happily laugh at their own little foibles as they will at others.
So I will join in. We all know that copper wire was invented by two Scotsmen arguing over a penny.
Take a chill pill and enjoy life instead of arguing about what happened in the past.
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#177 threnodio,
I found your link the about loss of data story as that was on the second page of the current thread so I guess that was the one you meant.
At the start of the article, he's admitted that human error can't be eliminated: is that also a self critique that he gets it wrong as often as his contractors.
Later on he states that when contractors make these mistakes and lose data they should expect to lose money: I wonder how he is going to pay for all the money that he has lost through his personal errors of judgement.
#178, SuffolkBoy2,
I think most are pro-Europe, especially us who live on mainland Europe, but there are an ever increasing number of EU sceptics. A Belgian mate of mine since 18 years has turned from being a European EU "the EU can't do wrong" supporter into a pro-Europe, disgusted at the EU sceptic, due to the way the EU treat people who try to exercise social mobility and work in another country. I.E. most directives are ignored or only part implemented and the glossy words about social mobility and single market are probably the great hoax of our time matched only by McClown's insistence that he is the best person to steer the UK out of his own disasters and that the UK economy is strong.
#184, Brettle21,
Well said, and your analysis of your ancestors is similar to what I've seen in family history research, very few are actually 'pure' as almost everyone is a mix of origins somewhere down the line and it's just a question of how far back you care to go in your history.
My experience of Germany is that they have done a lot to recover from their guilt of having allowed Hitler to rise to power as a dictator, but I would prefer that their consensus way of working means that all contribute as the leader - worker mentality still holds sway far too much. When I worked there in IT I rarely saw project decisions being challenged as I've seen in the UK or Belgium.
#183, G-in-Belgium,
I'll have to take your word about point 2, as for point 4 I used the Aachen route passing Koln and Frankfort rather than Luxembourg some years back and it was a lot easier and was the route a Czech girl I used to know used.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
178 - SuffolkBoy2
"You should be outraged about the way the British people have been treated, even as an "EU"-supporter. Are you?
Please will you now use your time and energy to try to get us a referendum?"
Absolute right. Or rather we cannot both be and the sooner we are given the opportunity to find out who is, the better.
Just two points. I am not well placed living outside the UK to have any political leverage but will continue to promote the idea. The other is please don't for get that it is the UK government which is not giving you a voice, not Brussels.
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#188, threnodio,
I think we've all seen what Brussels thinks of referendums such as in Ireland and how it funds the campaigns, rubbishes the opposition, and it would take a lot of bottle for Brown to stand up to the Brussels elite and promote a UK referendum and we've already seen that he's a bottler. Whether the other candidates/hopefuls across the political spectrum would be any better is a mute point and I suspect that the UK will only get a chance to vote if there is sufficient hard pressure put on them by the electorate. Whether the recent 'surge' in popularity for Brown is true or just spin manipulation of polls I don't know but it beggars belief that he's risen in the polls recently.
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Mark Mardell is always insightful, refreshing and curious - abilities every good journalist needs. But there are some details which should be mentioned in an article about Germany, the Germans and the role they have and want to play in the world:
Most Germans see themselves as Bavarians, Hessians, Rhinlanders and so on and there's no "Hessian Angst" or "Bavarian Angst". That kind of regional identity, which is part of the German psyche since more than 1000 years, is often neglected in reflections about this strange place in the heart of Europe but plays a dominant role for most Germans and modern German politics.
An affinity for all things European has some roots in the dark sides of our past, the guilt of our grandparents and our will to be on the right (good) side but there's also a -well- more geographical aspect in it: Germany is the link between the catholic south and the protestantic north of Europe and the slavic east and the germanic and romanic west of Europe - so with such a diversity of neighbours and influences it's probably just easier to feel european.
The black, red and gold colours of our flag stood for Prussia (black), Austria (red) and the rest (gold). The flag was prohibited by Imperial Germany and the third Reich - so nobody should feel fear or be embarassed and ashamed if he sees that flag and Germans waving it. It's just the German pendant to the proudest tricolore of the world. From a historical point of view it's a nice (and wonderful) anecdote that "gold" and the small states it represented had won the race to shape and form modern Germany since 1945 and not the Prussian black (efficiency but militarism) and Austrian red (relaxed but eastward imperialism).
According to #96: the territories that now shape and dominate Germany were (early) key parts of the "Holy Roman Empire" that was disbanded in 1806.
Kind regards,
Christian Matz
BTW: Dear Mark - try to read Joschka Fischers "Die rot-gruenen Jahre" (or a forthcoming translation, I hope). In this
fascinating book he mentions who are
the (two) big powers in Europe - and
who aren't...
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#185, gedguy2,
I'll try again as the mods are looking at my last post 187, you'll have to use your imagination for the words I've deleted.
Your comment to Alice is spot on, I grew up in South London and one of the first lessons about banter was if you can't take it don't give it. My building worker family lived on banter just as you described and building sites are much the same even now, although I've heard that wolf whistles are no longer PC any more as most girls I knew liked being admired by the hulks on a site. It's a shame that there are not more chill out pills as there is far too much political correctness these days, however the old banter still survives as I visited a pub in my old locality several times last year and no one in the very mixed origin/orientation clientèle was minding the use of words like, (deleted to avoid offending some politically correct racial awareness fool) etc and we all had a great time quality assuring the local beverages.
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#185, gedguy2,
I'll try again as the mods are looking at my last post 187, you'll have to use your imagination for the words I've deleted.
Your comment to Alice is spot on, I grew up in South London and one of the first lessons about banter was if you can't take it don't give it. My building worker family lived on banter just as you described and building sites are much the same even now, although I've heard that wolf whistles are no longer PC any more as most girls I knew liked being admired by the hulks on a site. It's a shame that there are not more chill out pills as there is far too much political correctness these days, however the old banter still survives as I visited a pub in my old locality several times last year and no one in the very mixed origin/orientation clientel was minding the use of words like, #deleted to avoid offending some politically correct racial awareness fool# etc and we all had a great time quality assuring the local beverages.
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Just got back and had to catch up on all these postings since Saturday night.
No 139 Buzet23 maybe you need to read my earlier post - no 60 I think.And don't get me on Zimbabwe - I am married to a man who was born and brought up in Zimbabwe!
No 156 Angrusz- My grandmother was Polish. Reading your other posts I am sorry you feel so much anger.
No 155 Webaliceinwonderland - I am afraid I have to agree with marcusaureliusII no 131-
I have had recent threatening / insulting phone calls (over a six month period )from a 'Russian ' woman who tried to snare my husband in Moscow(long story won't go into it) He spent alot of money on her!And I had been warned by another Russian woman from St. Petersburg - living in the UK,married to an Englishman- that this sort of thing is prevalent. Having said that I am not bitter and I have visited Moscow and loved it!Also I can now swear in Russian!
No 184 Brettle21 - I know exactly what you mean and agree - well put!
I would love to know the ratio of men to women commenting on this post!It really is proving to be an interesting debate.
PS. I won the Russian battle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sorry for interrupting this exhiting political debate. Gentlemen's club and all.
(in my exper. women are let to the ones in St. James' - that is, accompanied of course. for the lunch.. and to the library as well!)
gedguy2 @185 and threnodio @174 in philosophical moods, "to make fun of us."
I think you look like if you dial in Youtube:
If I were a sultan
Watch 2 min. I think gedguy2 looks like the one in the big fur hat. Mavrelius is definitely the one speaking on the phone.
Text:
If I were a sultan
I'd have 3 wives
Then by triple beuty
I will be terrorised.
But, on the other hand,
In such a lay-out
So many troubles and worries,
Jesus Christ! that is I mean
"save me Allah."
How many a man needs? we have to clear this up, what's better, chaps, 3 or only 1?
To a question like this
there an answer simple.
If I really were a sultan - ha!
I'd be a bachelor.
(That's from the movie "A Caucasus captive."
4 villains stole a modernised Caucasus girl, approx. a SO one, who doesn't want to marry a rich husband. She is "komsomolka", "sportsmenka", all A- degrees at school )- "otlitchnitsa" and - simply - "krasavitsa" (a beauty). As advertised by her parents, willing to sell her to a rich husband.
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190 - chris_matz
I think you have hit the spot with your comment about federalism. Many outside Germany do not understand the extent to which Germany is decentralised and the considerable power that is exercised by die Laender. In contrast, the British tend to be ambivalent about this. On the one hand, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish relish their relative independence and are intensely proud of their identities. On the other hand, they tend mysteriously to morph into 'Brits' when confronted with 'the monster across the Channel'. If they were to spend some time in Germany, they might begin to grasp just how much say individual regions have in the running of their affairs.
I will try to get my hands on Fischer's book (recommended to Mark) - (I have quite good German) but it won't be easy in Hungary. But, knowing his politics, it does not take too much guesswork to identify his two big powers.
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#189 - Buzet23
This is two way traffic. It is difficult to resist the notion that Europe's leaders are simply too scared of the answer to ask the question in the first place. On the other hand, you do have to accept that this is a matter for sovereign governments, ultimately it is their responsibility to ratify or reject treaties and they alone have the freedom to consult their people or go ahead on the basis that they are mandated to do so.
Suffolk Boy has a very good case in saying that the British people did not mandate Westminster to go down the Lisbon route and the people should be consulted. On the other hand, my point about no major party being anti-Europe stands. If euroscepticism was as widespread as some would like to believe, you would expect UKIP to have wide support.
I think and hope that Lisbon is dead, not because it is necessarily a bad result but because it was arrived at in an underhand way with the deliberate intention of bypassing the electorate. I also think the timing is bad because I anticipate quite radical changes in the constitutional arrangements within the UK which would impact significantly on attitudes. But that, of course, is a domestic question.
There should in my view be a Europe wide public consultation process aiming at arriving at consensus for a format which we all understand which should then be put to two votes. Europeans should be asked as a whole to approve or reject the proposed arrangements. If that received a 'yes' vote, then I would require the individual member states to put the question to their electorates - this is the proposed arrangement, do you want in or out?
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#194 - WebAliceinwonderland
I think that every man should have a wife at least once in his life - preferably someone else's - and every woman should have a man at least once in her life before settling for a boy. But remember I was a lad in the 60s when these ideas were not shocking. Some of us never grow up.
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Post 196, a fair summary and would go along with much of what you would say.
My only addition would be that an initial no vote would be accepted by the E.U without further analysis. In addition a second referendum would then take place to the effect that the E.U. should concentrate on providing free trade and movement of people and to this end the European Parliament and commisioners would be abolished. It would be up to the people then to deicide what they want Euriope to look like.
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regalvalkyrie #193,
Seriously, may be you are right, and Russian, or, wider, "from our wide quarters" female invasion is a problem in the West ? never thought of it, simply.
We are still - Russians I mean, very much untravellable. There is hardly a country on earth where we don't need a visa to, and as to emigration (unlike what Ukr. have and the Jewish here) - only Canada, Australia and New Zealand accept Russians. (And anyway Australia will cut their access numbers now because of the crisis).
In all other countries a Russian would go to, you'd wash dishes in a bar in illegal underground status, I think, and will never be able to "materialise and legalise."
Given such prospects, I don't know who'd dare to go and suspend "in the West" illegally. Only totally break-neck ones who have nothing to lose at home, or may be who've already lost everything.
Iron fence is down for you, for us it is still there.
But, we all hope, a real valkyrie can always stand up for herself! :-)
when is the V-day ?
(and, I always thought it's a small world, just of interest, what's the first name of your St. Pete acquaintance?)
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#198 - jordanbasset
Yes but people voting in the first referendum could quite sensibly vote 'yes' to a proposed constitutional arrangement because they are proposing to go on and vote 'no' to national participation. This way, you have wide general acceptance of the constitutional arrange ments amongst the intergrationists but still have the 'get out clause'.
Nations which voted 'no' in the second vote could then negotiate arrangements similar to those of Norway, Iceland and Switzerland with the inner core who had effectively opted for federation. There would not, as some would like to suggest, be a two speed Europe. You would simply have those who pooled their future constitutional arrangements and others who opted for free trade arrangements. There is no reason why the latter group should not participate in the ECHR, Schengen or even adopt the Euro providing they accepted the authority of ECB.
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To threnodio (196):
I don't accept your position that all European peoples should have an referendum, or consultation, as you say about the future of European Union and where it is going.
My objection to this comes that a referendum in some or even many countries goes against their respective systems of government. In example in the country of thousand lakes there isn't any such thing as legally binding referendum and referendums in general are seen to go against the very core of our parliamentary democracy.
What I would suggest that if the Lisbon Treaty falls down, what the EU should do is to create two new treaties, basic treaty that concentrates on common markets and mobility and second treaty that concentrates on creating Federal Europe. All current EU members then could choose in which way they want to handle these treaties, some would put them on referendums and some would choose to use the parliamentary route.
If EU is to split to two different levels, you have to remember that member countries can't just cherry pick projects that they want to participate and projects they don't want. In my opinion belonging to Eurozone should be let only to members of the federal level.
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Q: What is the role of a woman in a man's life?
A: When he realizes that one day he will die, she gives him consolation by making him consider that he might be better off. :-)
That's why a Sultan will remain a bachelor all his life Nanotchka.
There are only two kinds of married men. Those who are miserable and those who don't know it.
Here's a translation from one of the Songs of the Auvergne, an ancient region of France which is sung in Auvergnese and was orchestrated by Jean Marie Cantelaube.
Unhappy is he who has a wife
Unhappy is he who hasn't!
He who hasn't wants one
He who has doesn't!
Happy is the woman
who has the man she needs!
But happier still
She who has none!
I think the surpression of women inherited from ancient religions and civilizations is a reaction to the recognition of the potential for the ultimate tyranny of women over men. This will inevitably happen. It is already in progress in the US. If you don't believe it, just look at American laws as regards to divorce, sexual harassment, etc. The women invariably win in court. They continue to make strides in laws regarding employment as well.
BTW Nanotchka, I'm not a misogynist. Like any chess player, I know when the game is inevitably lost. But then women have a built in advantage. Men are ultimately victims of their own sex drives. Just look at how foolishly they behave. Your "fiance" for example. The poor fool never had a chance but fought so hard for what he could not have. Why didn't he give up and try elsewhere? Because you'd beaten him without even having to try. And you with your ice cold heart took no pity on the poor devil. An even more crushing defeat.
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#198 - jordanbasset
In 200 above, I neglected to add that, were there to be a 'no' vote at the first hurdle, the European leadership would have no choice but to accept that federation was dead and go down the free trade route. This would occur by default and there would be no need for the second poll.
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#199 - WebAliceinwonderland
And Israel providing you have Jewish credentials.
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Thrnodio (96): As I understand it, the period of high German art that you refer to (romanticism) is quite closely associated with German nationalism. It was characterised by a belief that for an artist to be great he must express his inner self to the maximum unconstrained by conventional reason such as was associated at the time with the Enlightenment in France. The cult of the great artist expressing his inner-self to the maximum became a metaphor for the political leader asserting the values of the nation over the world. Napoleon was seen as one such figure bringing the values of the French revolution to the rest of the Continent, and to which there should be a German response.
We still see traces of this cultural tradition today when we applaud artists who engage passionately in political or social campaigns, or alternatively accuse artists of 'selling out' to achieve success. But we do not applaud political leaders (at least not German ones) for aggressively asserting national values. Whether this is mirrored by a decline in German cultural output, or a tendency for Germans (or indeed Japanese) to take pride in technological rather than artist endeavour, I would not like to say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism#Nationalism
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#201 - Jukka_Rohila
I did not say there should be two refernda. I was very careful not to. I said two consultations. If countries such as yours and the UK, where refernda are not part of the accepted view of democracy, it would be perfectly possible to stage an election with candidates standing for or against the proposal. I don not naturally incline towards single issue politics and general elections are about many things but I think, in this case, it would be possible to create a constitutional forum with elected members for the purpose.
The first vote would of course be a referndum but, since it would require qualification by a second national vote, there should be no constitutional issues with it, treating it perhaps as an inclusive exercise in measuring public opinion.
I have no problem with your alternative scenario. It seems to me to be perfectly workable. I just think the debate has gone on for too long, the waters are getting muddied and, at this rate, we will never resolve it.
I do, however, disagree about the Euro. There is absolutly nothing stopping any country calling its currency anything it likes and pegging it to any currency they like so you could not really stop them.. If they want to actively partcipate in the project, those countries would have to accept the supremacy of the ECB and there are political consequences with that but you will not widen the appeal of the Euro as an international currency by making it a cosy and exclusive club.
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oj, Mavrelius, @202, alas:
"there's no bliss in world; the only things to hope for - are peace (of mind) and freedom"
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Jukka_Rohila @ #201
There you go again . . . .
and second treaty that concentrates on creating Federal Europe.
Why a Federal Europe?
Why do you seek to impose this form of Europe upon us all?
There are other options availablee when seeking to unite Europe as a Union.
what about a Confederation?
What about a Loose Union of States as we have now?
Why do you always write in your comments that the European Union should be a Federation or discuss such a Federated European Union as if it is a given end result?
A confederated Union of Europe would be as strong and could speak with one voice but the Nation State would be preserved but National Law would be simply be the superior law should the individual Nation seek to do things differently locally through ethnic, racial or logistical reasons.
A Federated solution is a "one size fits all" solution and, I am sorry, but we are all humans living in different circumstances and situations and I do not want to live under a "one size fits all" solution that does not suit me just because Germans (like Joschka Fischer whom Chris_Matz mentioned at #190) and Finnish people like you wish to have that kind of top-down instructional government order in their lives!
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#193, regalvalkyrie,
I read your post #60 and it was an experience not very fair, but then bullys tend to pick on any difference no matter what. The fact that you and your brother were half German was all that was needed but it could just as easy have been too fat, too thin, too short, too tall, too stupid, too intelligent, wrong religion etc the list of reasons for these lowlife's actions is very long and unacceptable but bullys are to be found in most countries.
You also mentioned that a young German girl you know commented on how informal the relationship between employees and management was in England. That was one of the reasons for my comment in #186, as I don't find the German consensus style of decision making very good if there is little or no discussion about the subject because the boss is THE boss and his/her proposal is normally just agreed with. I'm sure there are many managers in the UK and elsewhere who would love to have the luxury of a non bolshy workforce.
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Mavrelius, "ice cold heart". I was simply scared of him.
I asked him once of one thing only, in the beg., like he kept saying, "what would you accept, as a present?". Back then we haven't had it here in English, and still don't - only stupid Russian version, with lat year fashions sold in Moscow and St. Pete shops. So I said one thing I will be glad to have - bring me a fresh Cosmopolitan next time.
And?
Can you guess what happened?
I got a yearly subscription to National Geographic! thick glossy envelopes arriving by post! for years on the postman damned me, carrying in these kilos. Once I got a Diploma, like "Honourable member of the National Geographic Society". With a frame to it!
The cover letter from him explained in detail that decent women don't read Cosmopolitan, this will do no good to my yet un-firm views of the world, and surely he'll never allow his future wife to read anything of the kind. !!! And something a lot about God and various quotes only I never read further.
Combine this with innumerous local horror stories never off from front pages how a Russian woman would marry and American, go there, have a child, then would like to divorce him because he is totally shzophrenic or whatever. Well. anyway. may be it's not that he is mad, in fact, but rather I have a feeling many Russian women use foreigners simply as a means of transportation, to the West. because all official channels - to go work take care of yourself without any stupid husbands - are closed tight.
So, anyway, when abroad - at total mercy of the foreign husband. Not one was able to export the child back home running away to Russia back. All US men kept their children. Like, if you want to divorce and return - the hell with you, go. But the child will stay in the US, with me.
You simply don't know, how many Russian women tried TO STEAL from US, their children back. So many court sessions lost, it's a neverending on-going story.
There a warning here on all corners, in big letters: don't marry foreigners. Russian embassy won't protect you abroad, forget about it.
And still women go for it, because after the 20th century the situation with men is gloomy at home indeed. All the best were killed in all the wars, because it's always the best ones who step forward, and don't hide behind. resurrected to Stalin. killed in Civil war. "brains" mass emigration post-perestroyka. who is left here, for crying out loud! the country holds on women - the only ones who work and don't drink. National treasure, like oil and gas.
And is ruled - unlike in the US - by men!
Just yest saw a TV progarmme, explaining me - every 4th Russian man spent a time in prizon. !! I knew it is bad, but on getting this piece of news I began to nervously mentally look around, about neighbours in our house. And that higher education is twice the levels, with women vs men.
To say nothing that oumen simply took the habit to die before 58. Nobody never meets with his pension!
So what is a girl to do? Great choice - btw uneducated criminals at home who you can't even hope to send take the garbage out after you become 58, or national geographic travelling monsters.
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#205 - Freeborn-John
I have thought a lot about this and the connection between nationalism and romanticism is an attractive one. However, it does not account for the fact that the dominance of the Austro-German tradition pre-dates both the emergence of nationalism and the development of romanticism by a considerable period - one thinks of Bach, Mozart and Haydn.
It also works the other way round. Think of internationally recognised figures of the English tradition in the 19th century and there really isn't anyone apart from early Elgar. Yet look at the extraordinary British repertoire in the 20th century. Perhaps nations or peoples do just have 'golden ages' by dint of good fortune.
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Alice - you crack me up at times!
What about all those old boys in the Caucasuses who live to be 193, father hundreds of children and once had tea with Catherine the Great?
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"So what's a girl to do?"
Isn't the answer obvious? Spin a WEB Alice. Just be careful about what you catch in it.
I know you didn't like Lobachevsky. Perhaps you'll like the tale of Alma Alta Mahler Gropius Werfel better. BTW, Ponds is a brand of facial and hand moisturizing cream that was supposed to make a woman's skin "kissingly soft."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH4J8CIBc7Q
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To threnodio (206):
Maybe I didn't understand your proposition fully but to me it just seemed too complex and and most importantly not providing automatic continuation for the whole European project.
I double read what you wrote and the other thing that raises questions is your notation of consultation. The problem with consultation is that usually those who are loudest get all the attention and those who are moderate don't get the attention. The result in the end would be the same, some groups would yell murder while other would applaud.
Also, the idea about constitutional forum, don't think it would work. A whole lot of countries again would have to first change their own constitutions for that to be legal, and anyways, again that would be a serious preach against many systems. Maybe for Britain it might work.
Anyways, maybe its just best to note that decision making should be country specific and no general framework be given.
To Menedemus (208):
Why not there shouldn't be a choice to choose to take part in Federal Europe? If Europen Union is going to be split on multi level structure why not allow the highest of it to be Federal?
The point about multi level Europe, multi treaty Europe is that it would allow country to choose co-operation (free trade EEA styled), confederation (Common markets) and federation (single currency, single foreign policy, single security policy etc..).
Multi level Europe doesn't have to mean that the highest level dictates to rules to lower levels like it is now with EU vs. EEA countries. Either way for things like common markets to work there would have to be still be common European wide law for it to work. Would the Federal Europe have one voice in other levels or would it have multiple voices, that I don't know. But what would there be so wrong about this? All countries could choose which suites them best.
To threnodio (206) about the Euro:
No, the problem with Euro currently is that it needs more co-ordination and more common rules for it to work from laws regarding financial markets to laws regarding fiscal politics of Eurozone members. Those essentially are more or less things that belong to a federal level.
Now of course other countries could take Euro as their currency unilaterally. No problem, but my main point as that fiscal and monetary politics are in federal level for their very nature. I really can't see that no European country would take Euro in use without opportunity to take part in ECB.
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Nanotchka, in the thread which was "referred to the moderators" I suggested your "fiance" as you called him might not be entirely sane. After all, given the difficulty of relationships between the sexes to begin with, why would someone go to a foreign country to find a wife when this adds infinitely greater complexity of different cultures and languages? The divorce rate is already very high as it is. Of course, for someone to go to the US to marry an American and have a baby is a way to gain an entry to a place many people in the world want to go to. If the spouse is unhappy, she or he can leave but ultimately the courts take responsibility for the welfare of a child and their authority supercedes that of the parents. Since the child was born in the US, it was automatically an American citizen. This is why illegal migrants often come to the US to have a child. They are referred to as anchor children. One or both parents or their other children not born in the US can be deported but the child will remain in the US until age 18 if the court decides it is in that child's best interest. Often it happens the other way around. An American woman marries an alien, often a Moslem man who spirits the child out of the country. It is very difficult or impossible for the wife to get the child back without the direct intervention of the US governenment and the government in the country the child was taken to. The Elian Gonzalez case where a 5 year old Cuban boy rescued off the waters of Florida after the boat his mother escaped from Cuba with him in sunk and all others on board drowned may have been responsible for the defeat of Al Gore in the 2000 Presidential Election. The boy stayed with relatives in Florida but the father wanted him back in Cuba. The boy never got so much as a hearing in family court. The Attorney General Janet Reno ordered the boy removed by force from his uncle's house and returned to Cuba. Americans watched in horror on television as an American soldier in full battle gear and heavily armed snatched the boy from his uncle's arms in his own home to be sent to Castro's hell hole. A few thousand Cuban American votes switched in Florida as a result was all it took to cost Florida's electoral votes and the Presidency for Gore. This happened on June 2, 2000. Gore said he would do something about it before the boy was sent to Cuba but never did. Gore proved then that he was a liar, a coward, and a fool.
So you took the gifts, sneered at most of them, and then tossed the guy. Frankly I don't blame you for being scared. Had you rejected his gifts from the start, you might not have given him false hope. Most Americans have enough money to buy what they want in Russia with a few bribes to the right people if they know how, Russia being among the most corrupt places on earth. And what he wanted was you. You were lucky to escape.
Relish the thought that he probably spent the rest of his life making some poor unfortunate other woman miserable...or worse.
BTW, kid yourself and keep your illusions all you like. The truth is that the ones who died or left were no better than the ones who lived. On the other hand maybe they were just the lucky ones.
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Ok I am Orcadian and have lived in Germany for the past few years and would like once and for all to end this myth around German efficency. The trains and buses are rarely late however if they are then the whole system descends into chaos, they think nothing of cancelling a train just to get back on track...There is no such thing as customer service anywhere in Germany, if you require any assistance then until you complete 25 forms you will get nothing, it is bureaucracy to make you go mad sometimes and the simple way is never followed in germany, looking outside the box is never an option from my experience. The part of the blog where if a German says he will do something then he will is slightly flawed, one of my german friends was moving house and several guys said to her they would help and on the day she was amazed to see all the non germans appear to help, no germans arrived. When we asked her why, she said they only offer out of politeness and they were not expected to actually come help! Despite this, I love it here, once you get around their little quirks, of which there are many. I am 30 and I couldn't care less what happened from 39-45, the germans of today should be the same and not punished for something they could not influence. I mean do we treat japanese with the same antaganoism our elders and maybe the uneducated do the germans? The media has a lot to blame for, especially all the channels on the documentary section, I mean how can we forget when we see 4 or 5 hours of footage of the war every day?
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Re post 203, Threnodio, perhaps I am a little secptical, but if so it is from experience. I would love to think a no vote would mean that the european leadership would have to concede federalism was dead, but that has not happened so far.
The constituion was voted down by the peoples of France and Holland, both countries having a high turn out . France had a 70% turn out and 55% voted no, Holland had a 65% turn out and 63% voted no.
Spain had a low turn out of 42% and 77% voted yes. The only other Country to hold a referendum was Belgium, who had a high turn out of 88% and 67% voted yes, but Luxembourg of course has a very small population.
If you do the figures re populations a considerable majority of the people who were given a chance to vote, voted no.
I appreciate many countries did not allow their citizens a chance to vote. But being given a slap in the face did the pro federalist E.U. philes think about the sitution and consult the people to see what they wanted. No they bought back the Constitution via the Lisbon Treaty (95% the same according to it's supporters). But to make sure there was no rerun of the French and Dutch saying no they prevented them voting. In France's case by Sarkozy changing the law.
Even then, with the full force of the E.U. and main political parties behind the Lisobon Treaty, Ireland said no.
Does that result in a rethink. The first reaction is Ireland will have to vote again. They weren't really saying no, they just did not understand it etc.
As it looked increasingly unlikely Ireland would vote again, or if it did it would be an even bigger no vote the E.U. struck again. It now appears many of the items originally in the treaty can actually be put straight into E.U. law and does not require a referendum
Threnodio, I believe you are an honourable person and would have none of this trickery. But I have no such faith in the federalist faction who see the European project as a sacred cow, mere mortals cannot be allowed to prevent it. For that reason I do not share your faith that a European wide no vote (which I firmly believe there would be) would result in this faction giving up and saying ok you win - but I would love to be proved wrong
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# 194 WebAliceinwonderland
You don't realise how close you are. If you'd had seen me in the early 70s as a young man and added a beard to that character, then that was me. My hair never grew long, just outwards.
# 197 Threnodio
This statement is so true.
# 192 Buzet23
Reminiscence ain't what it used to be. I agree with you about there being too much PC. If the Scots, Welsh, Irish and English can have fun ripping each other to pieces; why isn't the rest of the world allowed to join in?
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# 215 MarcusAureliasII
'After all, given the difficulty of relationships between the sexes to begin with, why would someone go to a foreign country to find a wife...'
The best answer that I can think of is that it takes a couple of years before they realise that they have rights. Oh what bliss.
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gedguy2 #219
Don't kid yourself. Before they get here to America, they know how to work the system. They know it better than those of us who were born here. Why do you think so many of them get rich while so many native born Americans don't. They know what they want and they know how to get it. The only reason Nanotchka went back to Saint Petersburg is because she missed the joys of living in Russia so badly. She was homesick.
When I lived in California about 30 years ago, I had a friend who worked in the welfare department in Mountainview. She told me that a Mexican could enter the US illegally at 8 AM and by noon be receiving welfare benefits. Yes they know.
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gedguy2 @218
i'm glad you liked the movie. and that i guessed right. "feeling is believing", as we have the saying russified.
(that actor, George Vitsyn, was in fact very famous. In our quarters of course. until ran away to Hollywood to perish there. where seeing is believing. so, alas, not compatible.)
MAII@215 "not entirely sane" to put it softly, from National Geographic on I thought entirely mad. and, like, handle with care. what if jumps off from the Palace bridge.
as to close escapes, Iraq or whatever, as min Americans are not yet in the habit to steal women the Caucasus way in suitcases and trucks.
There it is a national custom, even when all agree, one has to steal his bride first. Very expensive arrangements, horses, mountains, the chasing party dangers. Lots of shooting, and many get killed by mistake at night. to the disappointment of the young brides.
though you never know... what you'll be up to.. in your financial situation...
threnodio @212
And you, Brutus.
I will defect to the CNN, if it continues this way.
Overall I thought it's extraordinary boring to discuss politics blog after blog. As if there are no other flaming issues in the continent !
as regalvalkyrie so truly pointed out:
"but I will tell you one thing - when it comes to buying clothes..Germany...what I want re colour, texture, choice and fitting!"
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#217 - jordanbasset
I share your reservations and doubts. I suppose what I am trying to arrive at is a situation of clarity and transparency. Open dialogue would go some way to removing that hopeless argument that people 'are not qualified to address something as complex as Lisbon'. Whatever the outcome, I would also like to see an attempt to give it democratic legitimacy. I do not think my idea is the only way forward. Far from it. I am very open minded about it providing my basic criteria above are met.
#213 - MarcusAureliusII
The love life of Alma Mahler? Good Lord, it make relativity look simple. Talking of which, where did she get the energy?
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Being Polish and the son of a death camp survivor, I still have mixed feelings about Germany even though I have met many nice Germans.
Even though I feel Germany is a positive force for European unification and social and econimic progress funding a big chunk of the infrastructure subsidies provided to new members like Poland.
As a Polish citizen, I don't see this as a favour, but as Poland's Marshall PLan and a small part of POland's long overdue compensation for the murder of 6 million people and the destruction of all its cities and infrastructure and the eradication of so much of its culture and history. Poland is still reeling from this shock and have only begun the clean up. But Poles do want to put this behind them and embrace Germany and Europe.
The problem is that many Germans still raise their children to hate Poles and deny what they did to them. Even worse, organizations have sprung up such as the Prussian Claims Society that has the audacity to claim compensation from Poland!!!. Yes, the European Court dismissed this nonesense and I am glad that the German Government does not support it, but the fact that it was even allowed to happen when Poland has never received any direct compensation from Germany is extremely painful for someone like me and many Poles to live with. It shows us that Germany has not changed enough.
Germany is engaged in a big PR campaign to rebrand itself, fine, but hold on, there is unfinished business. A symbolic gesture such as a monument to the destruction of Warsaw and the genocidal slaughter of most of Poland's educated class would be a start and a finish. With all the monuments and museums being built in Berlin, where is one acknowledging and expiating German sins against its neighbour Poland.
We want to like Germany, but still can't. We want to move towards the future, but still the passed is too heavy to carry.
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Mavrelius you are incorrigible. Nanotchka didn't "go back to St. Petersburg", she simply never left it. That you compatriot you so much worry about for unknown reasons, is he your cousin or what? was simply passing by here himself, nobody invited him. he was a photographer or film shooting something and deviated with his picture taking too much from what he was paid for, forgot what it was.
I did leave St. Pete, but to work in Moscow, that was 8 years, and to study in England, but normally I am at home. East of West, you know.
I've counted once, I've been to 22 countries. But those were bathing sea expeditions a few, business trips mostly.
And stop worrying for him, no harm done, all alive I hope, if who suffered it was me, because he was a total scarecrow for others. He spent so much time skulking around here, that last I heard eventually got a nice contract to shoot a US film about siege in St. Pete, and became looking nearly normal. I think monetary awards cured him a little bit. So - think about yourself, dear MAII.
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# 220 MarcusAureliusII
I was trying to make light of the post in a friendly way and I don't really want to get into the history of it...OK, I will then,'seeing as you left me an opening.
Prior to 1848 Texas, California, Nevada, Utah and parts of Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Wyoming all belonged to Mexico. The USA declared war on Mexico in 1846 and forced Mexico to cede these territories to the USA. So, in a way, complaining that Mexicans are coming over is a bit rich. You and I know that if it wasn't for the Mexican labourers harvesting the crops in California then the farming economy of California would collapse.
One last point, I thought that the native Americans were the Indians that were systematically eradicated in a policy of Genocide by the USA and not the people that try to call themselves 'native americans'. If you are one of those then I retract this last paragraph.
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Alice @ #221
Overall I thought it's extraordinary boring to discuss politics blog after blog.
You are so right to point this out. Europe is so much more than how it is run by the EU.
It is the people who make Europe what it is - from the sublime to the ridiculous.
It should be the sublime and the ridiculous we should talk about!
Interjections like threnodio's comment a way backabout his meal with a mix of Jews and Gentiles, and different nationalities that, if a bomb were to go off, the diners thought the authorities would not who the targets were was sublime but oh so true!
This thread, like so many when it moves away from politics is a joy!
I am still chuckling from having just listened to Tom Lehrer's Ode to Alma from Vienna.
Please do not desert to CNN you get the boys to be so clever and it is so much more fun!
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#210 - Alice, you Russians are amazing. What you write is really sad and (from my limited knowledge) very truel, and yet - you make it sound so funny, you crack me up every time!
A friend once said that people with a very good sense of humour developed it in response to being underdogs or in some way suppressed.
Well, the British upper classes aren't very funny...
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poor gedguy2. So confused. You been reading that left wing anti-american propaganda? There were a series of isolated missions and small mission towns in those western states. There were also tribes of what we today call Native Americans. But the population was very sparse. Fly over any of them today and except for the sprawling metropolis you'll see here and there, Las Vegas, Reno, Denver, Scottsdale, Albaquerque, Salt Lake City, these hostile lands are virtually empty (except for California.) Burning hot arid deserts, impossible mountains, just getting there is quite a chore without modern transportation. Just think, slighly over a hundred years ago, the Donner party on its way to California was caught up for the winter in what is now Truckee in what became known as the Donner pass, a mere 200 miles from the warm moderate California coast. And that's where most of them died in the winter in what was unpassable snow. It was the only recorded case of cannibalism in the western hemisphere until Jeffrey Dommer. These vast lands really belonged to nobody. How can you lay claim to hundreds of thousands of square miles when you have only a few tens of thousands of people at most living in them?
The people native to the Western hemisphere came to be known as Indians because Columbus thought he'd found a passage to India when he first discovered the new world. Many people we used to call Indians don't like it so we call them Native Americans which they prefer. The Canadians call them Aborigines. Yes many were slaughtered. A large percentage by Europeans. In Mexico, Central America, and South America, Spaniards like Pissaro and Coronado slaughered entire civilzations, the Incas, the Aztecs, and what was left of the Mayans. These native tribes in what is now the US were mostly hunters and claimed vast tracts of land as there sacred hunting grounds. Two tribes alone, the Passmaquady and Pnobscot claimed most of what is now Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire. As the Europeans and their American descendands moved west, there was a challenge for the land. By the standards of the day, the Whites didn't feel they had done anything wrong or out of the ordinary by fighting for the land. It is only though the retrospective lens of history that we see it as genocide. Again Europeans were as complicit as Americans. In what was an attempt at biological warfare, English soldiers would send blankets used by those who died of smallpox to the Indians in the hope of infecting them. Many Indians succumbed to diseases of all types brought by Europeans because they had no immunity to the new bacteria and viruses that were introduced.
American policy towards an influx of Mexicans and other Latinos illegally is one that is complex and in a state of flux. First of all, entering any country without permission is illegal. Unlike the EU's recent laws, we do not make it a felony although some, even many who are caught may be returned to their homeland and will try to return again. We understand the grinding poverty, corruption, and hopelessness these people have left and what they risk coming here. Crossing the southwest desert is a risk to anyone's life. The problems are the large uncontrollable numbers of illegals, that we cannot segregate criminals and even terrorists from those merely seeking work. This is startign to skew our population demographic distribution disproportionately. We understand the importance of the "remittances" sent home to Latin America to their economies and families and the importance of this labor to our own economy. But it costs far more to American society to pay for the social services these people get at taxpayer expense such as medical treatment, schooling for their children, and when needed imprisonment than the value of what they produce. Senators McCain and Kennedy, two people with vastly different views co-sponsored an immigration bill which would have given illegal migrants a long but ultimately certain path to citizenship. It was supported by leaders of both major parties. But the American voters were very angry about it, made it clear to Congress that it would be an issue in their re-election, and it was soundly defeated. We do not take kindly to exceptions to breaking our laws, especially by people who came here illegally to begin with.
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Everybody,
I am russian ukranian by blood, culturally - cosmopolitan, politically - european centrist -and enjoy living in Germany for almost 20 years.
I love Germany - it is a beautiful country with extraordinary rich culture. The big plus of the german psyche ?is discipline and structuralism ? if you want.
I think that it is high time to stop ´talking about germany?s fault and the WWII. Nobody counted millions killed under the British Empire Rule.
I am for the strong Europe ? and Germany together with France is the natural cord of such a political Union. If Britain prefers to stay away by serving the American interest ? they will lose the game ? at the end...
Germany?s tragic history is caused also by the constant anti german policy of Great Britain. It was Britain who opposed the natural reunion of the German speaking countries.
It was Britain who pushed germany into signing Versaille Treaty ? the foundation of the future political up rise of Hitler.
British policy during 19 and 20 century was anty german and antirussian ? so what is all this cry about now ???
As to the posts referring to the Russian women ? most british and german women lose maybe because for them to be attractive goes against being emancipated- so you can not be both ? and Russian women decided ? that it is possible ? that is why they are so popular.
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Hi Alice, please don't desert this blog, we need the humour here as there are too many 'heads in the clouds' Europhiles trying to insult us who dare to question the sacred projects credentials. Just look forward to continued contributions from MAII (LOL) and now gedguy2 in #219 whose response to MAII still has me rolling.
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#226 - Menedemus
#213 - MarcusAureliusII
Why is everyone so hung up on Alma Mahler tonight?
#226 - Menedemus
Since this thread is descending (ascending, maybe?) into the frivolous, I thought you might be amused to learn that I am going to see Elektra at The State Opera later this week. I saw the same production last year but it happens to be on my season ticket. My Hungarian partner who is in the UK most of the time (I know, don't ask) has discovered that there is quite a bit of nudity in this particular production and I hear that she is trying to organise an eighth veil since Salome is on the menu later in the season.
#227 - kuhmassy
"Well, the British upper classes aren't very funny... "
Nonsense. If you can't see the funny side of the English upper classes, you are in need of a humour transplant. They are hilarious.
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#229 - zhanetta
You really do need to study your history more thoroughly. I have to say I am surprised and disappointed at the anti-British prejudice that you comment displays, especially after 20 years in Germany where most would not agree with you.
It is a well documented fact the the British position at the Versailles conference was to oppose the undue post war punishment of Germany. They, along with their American allies, opposed the French annexation of the Rheinland and it occurred as a result of French insistence. Had the French seen fit to defend it in 1936, there is every possibility that the Second World War would have been much shorter as less costly in terms of fortune and blood.
It is also not true that the British opposed the natural reunion of the German speaking countries. Firstly, it would not have been reunion because at no time in modern history had they ever been united. Britain did not attempt to intervene in the anschluss of Austria, notwithstanding that it was the absorption of another nation state. What the British did very properly resist was the attempt to enlarge greater Germany to embrace territories which were not politically part of Germany. Specifically, these were the Sudetenland - which cannot be geographically defined but was basically part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire by default having been in the Hungarian Kingdom. Only 24% of the population were ethnic Germans and the territory was given to the Czechoslovak Republic by the Treaty of Saint-Germain in 1919 - and the Gdansk region of northern Poland, being part of what was left of East Prussia. It is worth noting that East Prussia extended far to the east of this, modern day Kaliningrad being the former Konigshaven. Danzig was a German speaking enclave within Poland and not naturally part of Germany, a position confirmed after the last war by the establishment and acceptance by all sides of the Oder-Neise Line.
Your characterisation of British foreign policy as 'anti-German' simply does not stand up to scrutiny. There were two catastrophic wars during the last century but over a longer period of history, one can see a pattern of amicable relations with both Prussia and her successor, Germany. The view of history which you present is at best naive and at worst revisionist and it cannot go unchallenged.
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O ! We lived to the times: Russia protects Germany !
Zhanetta, what I agree with you about, it is if anyone will pls check my post 161 at Frau Merkel's thread, re loss in Europe statistics.
One would think. If Russia forgave Germany. Approximately. Purely symbolically.
- what is there for others to discuss?
However, apparently there is something, 230 posts in 2 days.
May be it is that photo Mark Mardell placed, with swastika.
If I had another PC monitor, this one would have been broken by now.
About foreign women, Zhanette, I wouldn't be so decisive, a woman who doesn't want to be attractive wasn't born yet!
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Thank you, kuhmassechka, @227. And you also wrote to me earlier in this thread.
With Russian sense of humour I guess you are right, not from good life; BBC here explained a week or so ago, the origins of humour, scientifically. That it is a brain protection from the crazy world. When things get out of balance, in the environment, and a human can't influence n any way, to balance back to normal, because apparently there are some "norms" ? set in the brain?
anyway that's when jokes are produced in the brain, to countereffect and explain to yourself somehow the distorted picture.
Then it follows - the more out of order environment - the more humorous get the folks! (the brainy ones, I'd modestly add )
So hold at your chair tight, some turbulence is expected, adjust your seat belt, and go check @204 I posted in Russo-Eu relations/tensions.
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#229, zhanetta,
First we had jukka and now we have zhanetta, you two should team up as you both seem to have lost the plot.
You both express an admiration for a strong discipline with no counter opinion accepted. You both seem to think the sun shines out of the a**e of Paris and Berlin and you seem to imagine that it is the British who are responsible for everything that you desperately want a fall guy for and when it's not the British it has to be the Americans of course. Heaven forbid it could be one of your favoured countries that is responsible for something nasty, after all that would surely be the fabrication of a biased media.
By the way zhanetta are you in some way a friend of thehoaxofalltime as you seem to have copied the pattern of a denial crank such as he/she with your rant in #229.
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Menedemus @ 226, you always appear at the right time, and patch my wounds.
or the ones caused by me.
I feel safer when I see your name appearing in the moderation cueue after mine. (must be Mark Mardell does as well).
where Menedemus walks his paths... how to say. as I said. a man was not born yet, who talked to menedemus in these threads, and then limped away bruised and with a black eye.
that's climate moderation to the true moderate English climate. or what it used to be.
Busetushka, OK, I will stay a couple of days.
I was only running out of patience because you wait and wait every day, when will Mark post the truly important essay, to start the day, like, What part of the bikini will cause chaos on wheels? and Can one hope to see a truly EU unity on the subject?
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The monumental blindness and stupidity, unmatched barbarism and sadism of America and Britain nearly brought a new Dark Age upon a world dominated, not by them, but by the Soviet Union and communism, Although the Nazis and fascists lost the war--their heroic struggle with hardly any resources against overwhelming odds allowed civilization to survive. After 1945, it was the atomic bomb, beyond everything else, which allowed the west to survive---but before that, it was ADOLF HITLER who saved us.
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zhanetta, threnodio is right ab Prussia.
if you look in the wiki, Prussia was pulled to pieces, and Britain got no pieces. We have (Russia) a piece, Lithuania does, Poland, France. may be somebody else as well?
and I don't remember. in the 19th century - did Russia fight with Prussia or supported it in wars?
overall I think it is the zeal of the new converter.
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It is amusing to watch the Lilliputians swipe at each other. Of course they could not tie Gulliver down for long. This has nothing to do with that grand ole flag, it's strictly east of the pond.
zhanetta, do you think the Russians will turn off the gas to deliberately Germany this winter the way they did inadvertently a few years ago when Ukraine could not pay its bill? Only this time it will be to take a swipe at all of them, Ukraine, Poland, and Germany as we here say, just for Yuks? A week or two in the cold in January will show them who is boss. I know someone who'd like that.
You Ruskies are making me feel like I'm not doing my job. Especially you zhanetta. It's my sworn duty to bash the British. Frankly, blaming them for Germany is not only unfair, it's ineffective. That is unless you want to chastise that fool Neville Chamberlain. Now there was a truly stupid man. If you really want to get them, tell them Manchester United stinks and Arsenal should be relegated. Especially after they've had more than a few too many. Just watch out for the windows and mirrors though. And be prepared to duck.
Nanotchka, perhaps you don't know where your nickname I gave you came from. It really should have been Ninotchka.
http://www.answers.com/topic/ninotchka
I've cast you as Gretta Garbo. Of course I could have chosen a different Garbo role for you as Anna Karenina. But who would be Count Vronksy? I'd ask my friend Leon but I'm afraid he'd talk the whole night away. Ask him what time it is and he'll tell you how to build a clock.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026071/
I just wish if someone has something to say, they could say it in under a thousand pages.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I am part German myself and I am very proud of my heritage. I myself struggle to find any historical books about Germany that aren't entirely about just World War II. I have studied World War II quite a bit and it is a crucial part of the worlds history, but there is so much more to Germany that we never get to learn about. I love studying about the Germanic tribes that fought against the Roman Empire, the rise of Otto von Bismarck, the deeds of Baron von Steuben to the American Revolution, and even the effects World War I had on the world as well. In America many people see Germany as a strong militaristic country and its harder for us to grasp the entire impact Germany had on Europe. I think that Germans realize the trauma their country before has cause don others and they so desperately seek to make amends for the wrongs of their ancestors. Some Germans might feel its wrong for them to show great displays of patriotism because of the anger it might invoke in others. It does seam as though the younger Germans are more eager to show their pride and are and giving new life to German pride. I saw in the World Cup and even in the Olympics how many Germans came out to support their teams and their country. I know they might talk about how German engineering is incredible and it probably isn't all true, but over here people do appreciate German craftsmanship. In Chicago we have the Kristkindlmarkt and people form all walks of life come to experience German food, craftsmanship, and to even just meet actual Germans. Its a great experience and I am glad we get to see a different side of Germany than just what we learn from in school. I understand I as an American might not fully understand the relationships among European countries, but I have always been proud of my German heritage. Here in America we celebrate our military past and our proud of all our soldiers, but sadly that cant be said for Germans. I hope the German people never forget what happened, but rather learn from their past and use that to make an even better future.
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To Buzet23 (235):
I beg your pardon! The sun does shine from Paris and Berlin! Every morning high priest Sarkozy and priestess Merkel perform a secret and sacred ceremony to appease the sun god Ue to let the sun rise.
Haven't you also ever wondered why Iranians call you and Americans infidel dogs! Its because you are the people of devil, you are all evil people of sun eater dog! With out Ue and his followers you would have your way and the world would fall into internal night!
Praise Ue! May your might smith the infidel dogs and teach team the true mining of Ue!
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# 228 MarcusAureliasII
I really appreciated your patronising post, thank you. However, you did not answer any of the statements that I put forward.
1. Did the USA declare war on Mexico and after 2 years force Mexico to cede those lands mentioned in my post # 225?
2. Are the 'native Americans' the indigenous peoples of these lands or are they the people who came over from Europe yesterday, historically speaking?
You said: 'But the population was very sparse.' Are you saying that if any area is sparsely populated then the USA has a right to take these lands off the people who own it?
You also said: 'How can you lay claim to hundreds of thousands of square miles when you have only a few tens of thousands of people at most living in them?'
Can I expect that the USA will be invading parts of Siberia soon? The other point is at a certain moment in time there were less 'white' settlers in those lands than Mexicans. So, your demography doesn't add up here.
You said: 'First of all, entering any country without permission is illegal.' I refer you to the Mexico-American war of 1846.
You said: 'we cannot segregate criminals and even terrorists' Are you saying that the Mexicans are terrorists? Or for that matter, the Canadians?
You mentioned the town of Truckee. Is this the same Truckee where there was a vicious and racist campaign to eject the Chinese people who were living there? The same Chinese who had worked exceedingly hard to build the trans-continental railway, where hundreds died building the future of the USA.
Now that I've said that, and asked you to answer those questions I'll state that if it wasn't for the USA then Europe would have been destroyed after WWII and we have a lot to thank the Americans for. Especially those who have laid down their lives for our freedom, and that includes hispanics, afro-americans, asian-americans as well as anglo-americans. We have a lot to thank the Americans for.
Just one last point: What makes you think that admitting to the declaration of wars that the USA declared in its bid to extend the frontiers of its country makes one a left wing sympathiser? I suggest that you read up on American history. I suspect that even right wing republicans do not deny that America invaded Mexico. However, I suspect that they will see it from the point of view that you have so kindly laid before us.
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Marcus AureliusII
Your post about Indians, Native Amercians as you call them, is puzzling to me. You say, how can you claim land if there are only so many people that live there. This would imply that for example Montana or Alaska should be up for grabs, since the population there is not exactly dense?
Also, I would like to differ when you say that 'they' prefer to be called Native Americans. I have many friends from different tribes and none of them ever refers to themselves as 'Native American', but Indian. In fact they make it a point. A very good friend of mine is an attorney practicing tribal law and to this day she represents various tribes, fighting for their rights, which unfortunately are not that easily granted!
And of course it was the Europeans that started it all, after all there were no white Americans in the beginning :-)
As for illegals, I find it very disturbing how again and again people argue about how much it costs society for medical treatment. You know as well as I do, that in the US there is no free medical treatment, unless you have medical coupons, which as an illegal you cannot get. No social security card, no medical coupon or welfare!
On the other hand the hospitality industry as well as the agricultural industry, only to name two, would collapse without illegal workers that work often for less than minimum wage, 2 and 3 jobs at a time. Would you care to pay $15 for a lbs of apples or $50 for a steak?
Of course there are bad apples in the barrel also, there always are. However, the majority are only after the same things everybody wants and most of them are willing to work harder than the rest of the country to make their dream reality!
Personally I find it difficult to understand, why it has to be such an issue, but it is probably within the minds of the 'entitlement generation' - everyone is worried that somebody might get something that is or should be rightfully theirs, even if they didn't want it to start with.
As I mentioned, half my close family is American so I have no ill-will to any of you. I find you all mostly agreeable, if sometimes somewhat naive! In a country where everyone claims this and that ancestry Xenophobia should not be as rampant as it is!
I apologize just in case these comments upset anyone, this was not my intention. These are just personal observations of myself and other ex-pats and it would be interesting to hear your stance. :-)
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Lol Gedguy you beat me to it, though I used Alaska and Montana....lol, Siberia completely slipped my mind...
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# 245 Brettle21
Let's hope it slips the minds of right wing republicans.
I too was backing the 'native americans' as one of my cousins married a native american. We haven't heard from her in 40 years though. I also have family in California, Chicago, Seattle and somewhere in Florida. My own child and grandchildren are English, but I don't hold that against them. ;-)
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That is so kind of you Gedguy2, you are all heart ;-) - I am glad you're not holding it against them.
And I have to add one more thing. There was an earlier post about 'regional identity' in Germany. This is absolutely true.
Even though I have German nationality, I am first and foremost Bavarian and then German! I would be flying the white and blue, not the black, red and gold...if I would be flying anything...for now a fridge magnet will have to do!
Gosh, let's not start on the right wings...if I start I will never get off my soap box! Consider yourself lucky you don't get to hear and see everything.
I volunteer with an animal rescue group. Some of the most kind-hearted, genuine people I work with there, started sprouting the worst propaganda you can imagine - it very much reminded me of our own German history and left me open-mouthed and speechless! It is very unsettling and I am nervous for tomorrow! If the election is stolen again, I don't think people will take it laying down this time! Obama is ahead by 9 points, but let's face it, so were Gore and Kerry....until...
PS: They just found another 3500 votes from 2000 in a warehouse in Florida!
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Don't worry about Siberia chaps. Sarah Pailin is keeping an eve on that. It is the eye she took off the ball.
Marcus, I cannot get over your suspension of Brit-bashing. Have a care when knocking Manchester United though. As their major sponsor was AIG, I assume it is now a wholly owned subsidiary of the US Treasury.
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248 Brettle21
I agree with you and the earlier post about regional identities and I support that. (see post 116) As you may be aware I have an affinity with the German peoples. (see post 7 and 19)
I am an animal lover too; they are very tasty.
As to the result of the election; my father told me that it doesn't matter who you vote for, as the government always gets in.
In answer to your post script; Well there's a surprise.
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Threnodio,
Lol to the subsidiary of the US Treasury - that's funny!
gedguy
here's a piece of totally useless information, but seems we have something in common...lol, since I am Bavarian and you are Scottish
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/editors-choice/2008/04/08/german-duke-could-clame-scots-throne-86908-20376606/
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# 248 Threnodio
My English football team has been Liverpool for the past 4 decades but I can say from the bottom of my heart that I have always had a soft spot for Manchester United; it's called quicksand. ;-)
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# 250 Brettle21
Just read your link. I was born a Roman Catholic which is why I am now a God-fearing atheist. However, I always thought that the Act of Settlement is an affront to democracy in these modern times and is highly bigoted. Saying that, I would expect a lot of trouble in Scotland if the act was repealed. Check out the stance of the Free Church of Scotland. Then check how many Orange lodges there are in Scotland. It wouldn't be worth the hassle. On top of that I am highly suspicious of the Roman Catholic church.
As to the Wittlesbach's taking the throne; please, not another German! We have enough of them in our current royal family as it is.
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237. At 01:07am on 04 Nov 2008, FriedrichPaulBerg @237,
I have a good friend Jacob Paul Berg, who is the grandson of a Rabbi who lived in Berlin up until 1936 or so (he died up in Auschwitz).
Are you by any chance related? Do your political friends know about this?
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#251 - gedguy2
Oh, I like that! LOL
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I hear you, recovering Catholic here myself for the past 20 odd years. The current pope was our Arch-Bishop, he is not entirely innocent of influencing my recovery attempt *grin*
I found the article highly amusing! I don't think you're in any immediate danger though, as it states he is if anything a 'reluctant' heir...lol! Basically he can't be bothered anyhow...
Religion is opium for the masses! I can tell you though, you haven't heard anything until you've listened to some of the Fundamentalist Christians over here...no offense, but completely bonkers, the poor Catholics have nothing on them!
And, as for football, I don't think after Bayern Munich there is anyone on the horizon for a long time and then my choice would have to be the spurs...I used to live right next to their stadium - Whitehart Lane! Memories!
How's that for throwing down the gauntlet!
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PS: We rescue ex-racing greyhounds, whilst they're lovely, I'm not sure how tasty they would be - a bit stringy I suspect!
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#242, Jukka_Rohila,
That's very funny but the sun god is RA and the UE you're praising is 'Upper Egypt', but then I guess you were referring to a twist of the EU by reversing the letters. I'm curious about high priest Sarkozy and priestess Merkel performing a secret and sacred ceremony each morning, is this the handing out of crumbs to feed the masses they've impoverished by their policies, or is it just counting the Euros they've made out of scamming us with the EU. Ah ah I've just worked it out, they're grand master and grand mistress of the ancient and secret order of cozeners.
#251, gedguy2,
LOL, I'm also a Liverpool supporter but my son is Manchester United, Tranmere Rovers is our middle ground but they seem to be as unreliable as Gordon Brown at the moment. Lets hope Liverpool play positive tonight.
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# 255 Brettle21
I don't want to speak about Spurs just now. They beat us and knocked us off the top of the table. I'm off to the corner now to have a little cry to myself.
I thought that Bayern Munich was a disease. ;-)
You are right quoting Marx. It is very true.
'Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes.'
Still, everybody has the right to believe what they want, even if it is in a supernatural being.
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# 256 Brettle21
You must be very fit to catch them.
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Dear trenodio,
#196
without a spoiler: according to Joschka Fischer the two great European powers are France and the U.K. The reason? Self confidence!
(... that brings us back to Marks "German Angst" )
Fischer's analysis fits very well with the remarks of the the New York Times' Richard Harbus about Germany - "Germany has evolved into a stealth great power" and "[...] its power and influence today are [...] understated".
And to all the bloggers that mention the war(s) - probably you're right as Fischer a few years ago said: "A German foreign minister still walks on thin ice..." Mention the war obviously is a theme in world politics.
Kind regards,
chris_matz
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# 257 Buzet23
Indeed I hope you are right that we win. I have my fingers crossed and taped together for luck.
As to Tranmere Rovers; someone has to support the 'wooly backs'. ;-)
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Gedguy, it is indeed a disease - be careful you don't catch it!
Anyhow, the only thing I shall catch now is some sleep, it's 3am over here and whilst I would love to rub the Spurs in a little longer, a girl's got to get her beauty sleep!
Gute Nacht/Guten Morgen, depends where you are at and wish us luck over here for today! If McCain/Palin win, I am considering leaving my 'diaspora' and coming back home lol!
To Chris on the self-confidence issue:
You might be right. But luckily they're not much of a threat, since it's highly unlikely that the two will ever see eye-to-eye! I don't think we'll see the 'Franglo coalition' anytime soon ;-)
Go on you Spuuuuuurs....(sorry, I just had to)
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Good morning all. I haven't yet had all coffee to wake up, but one thing i see for sure Mavrelius is after our Siberia with his population density. So wait Mavrelius I'll go check rocket holes on the perimiter first, as Jolly Ro needs walking, and then with heart relieved that nobody left their posts to go, say, collect wild raspberries in the forest (happens) (I know a man fired for that)
will think about your Vermont. Just got to know yest. you have only one rep from there to 500? 30 ?40? 8? Electors, because so few people live there.
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I am a little worried about religion and football in the same thread. I would hate there to be any confusion between God and something which genuinely is sacred.
In the meantime, it is interesting to note that taking national pride in producing things that are black go very fast indeed is no longer the preserve of BMW - thanks to Lewis:-)
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I could not post my comments last night - technical problems!
So now I am behind Grrrrrr!
No. 199 Aliceinwonderland -Which V-day do you mean?
I cannot give the name, I am sorry!
However just as an extra observation ,visting Moscow earlier this year I have never seen so many middle aged ( and not so handsome men) strutting about with very young women on their arms. No doubt money talks in the Russian Fderation aswell!
I was in the O2 club in a very expensive hotel on Tsverskaya ulitsa one night - fascinating watching the business being made there.
Fascinating place and very cultured.
I do love your comments Alice - keep them coming - very Russian.
No. 209 Buzet23-
I understand what you mean about bullying. I did not give the whole picture. Anti German feeling came from my teachers aswell- it is not just the bullying. I did not want to bore people. I am strong enough to deal with such matters and have moved on.
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260 - chris_matz
Dear Chris,
I cannot yet find Fischer's book. Out of interest, I wonder whether his view is influenced by the fact that France and UK have moved decisively away from coal for power generation. It can be very confidence boosting not having to depend on something you dig out of the ground for continuity of energy supply. The German objection to the nuclear option does seem strangely at odds with the need for cleaner fuel and an over dependence on a single source for gas.
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Boys! Boys! Boys! - Please do not bring football into this. I cannot stand the game.I obviously mistook this for an intelligent blog site!
That is a thought . If we took men and boys out of the equation -put them in a holding pen -would that stop human beings craving power, land, money, control and going to war?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After all it is alawys the women and children that suffer in the end.
Yay! Let women run the world!
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MaxSceptic @ #253
Succinctly put and, dare I say, the enlightened way to respond to crass stupidity.
I was biting my keyboard so as not to reply to the earlier post and try to ignore it as it deserved!
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gedguy2 #243
I see my problem. I used a pea shooter when I should have used dynamite.
For the number of people living in those nealy empty lands, they might have just as well been fighting over Antarctica. Since there were more Native Americans than Mexicans, were those lands a colony of Mexcio? Just because it was a war over territory doesn't make it imperialism. That is not what imperialism and Empire are about. There's a lot more to it. But these new lands didn't become colonies of America, they became America itself. Yet I have conceded that in a sense this was in an oblique way an imperial act but not one comparable say to where the British Empire ruled India. The Native American peoples who inhabited those lands were left to rule themselves and still do in what are independent nations which have treaties with the United States government. They simply were not allowed to lay claim to whatever land they felt was their hunting ground to the exclusion of others who wanted to live there too. BTW, they also fought with each other over it. It is an historical fact that the United States of America fought a war over this land and took it from Mexico. And it is also a fact that additional land at the southern limit of this land closest to what is now Mexico was sold to the US by Mexico afterwards in 1848 in what is called the Gadsden Purchase. So you can see how valuable it was to them. Just mostly empty space on inaccurate maps in reality at the time just the way the purcahse of Alaska from Russia was.
The American Natives are believed to have arrived on the lands they occupy in the western hemisphere as the result of migration from Asia around 12 to 13 thousand years ago during an ice age when a land bridge made it possible for them to walk to Alaska from Siberia. When they arrived at each particular point is uncertain but they were there long before the first Europeans arrived. It is believed that there were approximately 3 million people in the 2 million square miles that is now the United States of America when Columbus arrived. It is believed that about one million remain. Many were killed by Europeans before America was founded as a nation.
The conquest of the west and the expansion of the United States into the vast largely unoccupied territory that became the Western States, a policy called Manifest Destiny is one of the most fascinating aspects of American history to many Americans including me. So is study of the customs and cultures of the many Native American tribes. That the history was often tragic is simply a fact of it that cannot be changed. But that has little bearing on the reality of today. You cannot understand that place unless you travel there and see it with your own eyes. It is a place of seemingly endless and unimaginable beauty which cannot be captured by film, photographs, or stories. There is surely no other place on earth remotely comparable. And there is far more than enough land for anyone who wants to live there to occupy as much of it as they can possibly make use of. The story of "How the West Was Won" is one of enduring and overcoming unimaginable hardships. Many died just trying to get there. Passing glib judgements about these historical facts by ingnorant people who are looking for any way they can find to criticize a far superior civilization to their own is one that I find endlessly detestable.
Brettle21 #244
I don't call them Native Americans because I just happened to pick a phrase. This is what I and many others of European descent understand that they want to be called. This is what our society has agreed to call them because it is accurately descriptive and as far as I know is inoffensive to them. What's your problem with that? They do not for the most part like being called Indians the way I understand it but I will call them Indians if they prefer or butterscotch pudding if they like that term better or whatever else they care for. They certainly have nothing in common with people from India. How about Aborigines the way the Canadians refer to them, would they prefer that?
When whites settled the west, there was no government of any kind. Each tribe had their own tribal laws. The whites were considered outsiders, unwelcome invaders even when they came in small numbers. They were often slaughtered until they understood that if they wanted to live in that region or even just pass through, they'd have to fight back. The war between the Native People's and the whites was largely one started by the Natives who would not accept invaders wo used the land for villages and farming. But they fought a hopeless battle. They even tried to prevent the building of the first transcontinental railroad. Left to themselves, the entire western United States would have remained as it had for thousands of years, a sparsely populated stone age society left to others to conquer and settle far more brutally than even the whites did. Given the realities of the larger world, what happened was probably the least disruptive alternative outcome as tragic as it often was. To pretend otherwise is simply to find an excuse to criticize history which cannot be changed. Accept it and move on.
The complex issue of illegal aliens in the US is one more point ignorant Europeans use to bash Ameican society. We recognize the need for these workers and the importance the money they send to their families in Latin America is to keeping millions of people from starving to death. We also understand that about 12 million people entered the country illegally since the last time amnesty was granted in the 1980s and those who advocated it said this would be the end of it. It costs at least $6000 a year per person for medical insurance. Multiply that by 12 million and you will see what a burden just that aspect of it is alone to American taxpayers. They constitute 4% of the entire population. When you add it all up, we all pay in our taxes for the financial gains of relatively few who exploit them directly. We all also gain from it indirectly. Among those who invade are criminals who import illegal drugs and possibly Islamic terrorists as well. We are building a wall the way Israel has but who knows how effective it will be. Those Americans who have tried to stop it in small groups have been confronted by the US government who is hostile to any individual attempt to stem the tide. The outflow from Mexico is seen by many as a safety valve for a corrupt ineffective government to the south of us that has failed its own people. Changing that would do much to make people want to stay home with their families instead of migrating to a place that is often hostile and dangerous to them.
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