Falling fish stocks
I hope to be reporting from Scotland on an EU deal that may save both cod, and the Scottish fishing industry. 
No one doubts that the North Sea is running out of fish like cod. No one doubts that a blanket ban on fishing for some of the most popular species will destroy people's way of life, and income. I should have the latest on an overnight deal, on the Today programme. The ministers responsible for fish from the EU's coastal countries are expected to throw out a drastic plan from the commission which includes banning all fishing for cod west of Scotland. No one, including the commission, expects the commission proposal to survive: it's a classic over-bid, to concentrate minds.
What ministers may well opt for is "the Scottish model". This means getting rid of the widely ridiculed practice of throwing dead fish back in the sea merely to avoid breaching rules set up to avoid killing endangered fish - rules on using clever nets that avoid catching endangered fish and rigorously avoiding fishing in what amount to nursery areas for cod and other fish in short supply.
But is this really a Scottish model or more of a Norwegian one? Norway, resolutely and proudly outside the European Union, is widely praised for its fishing policy by, among others, environmental groups like the WWF.
There it is illegal to throw back dead fish: logically if you catch a fish, that is counted towards your quota and there is no avoiding it. Difficult to police, certainly, but at least not patently absurd. Some think Norway can set its own more logical policy because it is outside the EU and does not have to horse-trade with 26 or so other countries. There's no doubt at the moment the EU mechanism is rather bureaucratic. Scientific reports are produced, then the commission reacts, then the ministers decide, by which time the science is well out of date.
The Norwegian and Scottish systems mean fishermen radio in when they find a spawning ground and they and others have to avoid it. Of course this does mean a degree of trust in both the fishermen and the governments.
On the other hand, when I ask one industry insider what he thinks of the desire of some conservatives and others to "repatriate" fisheries policy he replies with two succinct words. I am not allowed to use swear words or asterisks here, but the first word is "utter" and the second spherical.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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Did the 'industry insider' explain why he thought the notion of fisheries 'repatriation' to be utter, um, sphericals?
I'd really like to know.
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whos to blame ere i need not answer the question ask a local fish monger.The common fisheries policy hmmm
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All the fishermen I've talked to say the waters are teeming with cod and have been all year.
Perhaps it's time to admit the CFP is incompetent and return fisheries control and protection to the remit of individual countries.
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Yet another reason to get out of the "EU" as soon as possible.
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You can't blame the CFP for the fact that there just aren't any cod left - and don't kid yourselves, there aren't. It could perhaps have been handled better, but the long and the short of it is too many boats, not enough sea.
This idea of there being no problem with the cod is total fantasy. I've been out with lifelong fishermen, and also with scientists, in efforts to develop the new trawls mentioned above, and the evidence speaks for itself. There aren't as many as there were, and those that are there are mostly small and young. Some years are better than others, but the general trend is downwards. Don't take one or two good years as a signal that it's all good to carry on as before - this is a fishery in serious decline, and drastic action is needed. The alternative... well, we'll all find out in a few years if nothing is done.
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Now this is the kind of thing that makes me really angry. We have eurosceptics bombarding us with all sorts of eccentric allegations and what does the EU come up with? Chuck dead fish back in the sea.
What chance do rational human beings have in the face of such sphericals.
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Ooh, yes, let's just carry on fishing as hard and fast as we can!
Ooh, er, isn't that what caused the wipeout of Canadian cod fishing?
Um, perhaps we'd better think this through a bit .............
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the cod in the "blue hands" picture is indeed small. babies. these shouldn't be caught.
normal ones are more monstrous.
(i always had cats, allright? there hasn't been a day in my life when I didn't wash and ?" scratched" /peeled? don't know, with that metal fish scratcher and cut and cooked that damn fish! )
several fish-stalls in this city know me by face. I don't say a word when I approach a counter. they start weighing and wrapping without me saying a word.
of cods we like tails.
of hake only several countries' fish are eaten, other are turned down. etc.
that fish that is thrown back into the water or murdered for nothing. can't you sell it to St. Petersburg direct? we are always in lack of fish.
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and it's not cod in the picture I think. it's "piksha" don't know the Engl. word.
say, from the cod family.
that dark stripe along on the side.
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The EU want to save cod?
Without the EU would it have been threatened?
The EU aren't part of the solution - the EU isn't even part of the probem - the EU is the entire problem.
So guess what the solution is?
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There is absolutely no need for the "EU" to be involved in any policy relating to fishing in the North Sea. If we need a common policy then it should be arranged by the countries bordering the North Sea. If they can't agree, then each should have their own.
The only reason the "EU" is involved is because the "EU" is about megalomania.
Watch Star Wars!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mark
The comment "No one doubts that the North Sea is running out of fish like cod" is a typical reaction from someone who has never bothered speaking to a fisherman! Scottish trawlers are desperately trying to avoid catching cod as they have no quota and the sea is full of cod. Typical european bureacratic point of view and ill researched.
Fishing policy is a complete farce and has been since conception.
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The fish in the picture looks like a whiting but i could be wrong.
There are many things wrong with the policy as is but a couple of suggestions for debate:
I have always thought it wrong that we encourage the largest fish to be caught these are the breeding fish but i realise there are problems doing this....
Perhaps we could encourage the fishermen by placing a bounty on large live cod and other species ,we could then hold them in fish farms and return the young at a suitable size.
All countries that have fishing boats would be responsible for returning a pro rata amount of live fish,if they are unable to do this they could pay another country to fulfil the quota.
i would also like to see fish being landed at the nearest designated port to the catching area and a limit put on the size of boat...
Far too much fish is not counted properly in ports that turn a blind eye...
In the UK we have seen our fishermen thrown on the scrap heap to appease other European countries this has to stop and we have to find a way to use this valuable resource far far better than we do at present.
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The EU has been a disaster in terms of the fishing and farming industrys since it was able to get its hands on both.
From a fishing point of view it gives the bulk of the fish stocks in BRITISH waters to foreigners and the Spanish just laugh at the regulations.
The actual auantity of dead fish thrown back, under EU rules, is about 50% by weight and is mostly undersized fish althjough when a quots is ended it also includes fish that is saleable.
This means that if the total landed in one year per boat were 1000 tonnes then 1000 tonnes are thrown back. Is it any wonder that fish stocks are dwindling and they will continue to do so as long as foreign vessels have the right to rape our seas.
The answer for us is to do what Norway did and leave the criminally run EU and take what is left of our fish with us.
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The Common Fisheries Policy probably exemplifies the EU at its most federal. Is it a coincidence that economically this policy is grossly unfair and ecologically has been a disaster?
The majority of fish-bearing waters in the EU are actually British waters. "The Six", as the EU then was, asserted control over these waters in an underhanded, probably illegal, move just before Britain joined in 1973.
What might work is Britain reasserting control over her territorial waters and implementing a policy similar to that of Iceland. The fact that much of the fish we buy in that national favourite, the chippie, is from Icelandic waters shows what could be achieved.
The fishermen of Scotland, the North-East, Cornwall, &c., whose communities have been ravaged by the EU, would be able to make their voice heard.
That might work. What definitely hasn't worked is letting the EU control fishing stocks. It's obvious what Britain should do next if our fish stocks and our fishing fleets are the prime concern.
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Can I suggest that if fishermen can't understand the reasons behind the decline of cod (catching too many fish of all sizes for too long) they are going to find it very difficult to secure alternative employment once they have destroyed their and their children's livelihoods?
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One lesson I have learnt form working in the oil industry is to assign responsibility to those that have a passion for the job. Accountability is for those who are supposed to be able to balance conflicting views and information and come up with a coherent policy and "measurable" objectives.
The EU has neither, when the UK joined the common market our seas were the envy of the europeans. Look at them now! The biomass is at an all time low, some say 10% of what it was 30 years ago. Todays fishermen do not know this as they are not of that era. This is very important!
So the EU is an incompetent fisheries manager, no argument there from me.You just need to see what we did to the Grand banks and then the Greenland halibut.
However could we be any better? I say yes, simply because the fisheries industry is a core industry for Scotland (certainly not for Westminister) and therfore the passion is local and should be administered as such.
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As a recreational sea fisherman I'm more than aware of the drastic reduction of fish stocks all around our islands. At least 50% reduction in the last 20 years.
It is entirely down to the EU's policies and, of course, our membership means that all other EU countries have equal rights to waters close to our coasts. Our island has lost control of its most prized asset which is being regularly hoovered of fish by the likes of the Spanish factory ships.
The only areas where fish are still in healthy numbers are around Norway and Iceland - 2 countries outside the EU. We need to get out too!
Square rather than diamond shaped nets should be used. Discards should be banned - you catch it and it is part of your quota.
Finally, onshore gill netting is already illegal but not enforced - just take a walk along the beaches round the Solent and you will see them.
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i am in total agreement with number 10 on this one.
coming from an area that has had its fishery industry decimated by EU rules but watching spanish boats come by loaded with fish in total violation of the rules has shown us there is one rule for one and the rest suffer under this inept and corrupt EU.
i fear its too late and there is not much we in the uk can do becouse the eu gets what it wants and sadly we must blindly obey, thank you neu labour you have sold us down the river without a refferendum.
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There will yet another fishery fudge and stocks will continue to decline until in 20 years time the only fish generally available will be farmed. Wild fish will be both rare and very expensive.
Girth_summit # 5 is entirely right. I do not blame the fishermen, they have a hard dangerous life. However they have broken the rules, do and will continue to do so. Such is human nature.
British fish stocks were at a peak in 1946 when there had been no North Sea fishing for five years. When I was a kid after the War, cod and place were plentiful and a cheap meal. Overfishing of coastal waters was rapidly reducing stocks long before Britain joined the now EU.
Policing is the basic problen like trying to catch shrip in a net on a dark night. Vertually impossible.
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After decades of trying, the EU can't even manage fishing, how are they going to manage 27 nations? Perhaps fish trafficking will replace people trafficking as a more lucratrative crime. If they don't do something, Brits will have to learn to give up fish and chips in favor of chips and chips. I don't think you can over harvest spuds.
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There definitely seems to be something fishy going on here if some of the words of the posters are true in that the fish stocks are different from what is being spun. Knowing how EU policy is always spun in a manner that makes Tony Blair's attempts look amateurish I am only ever certain of one thing, the Spanish and French fishermen will benefit at the cost of British fishermen.
How it is that the Spanish and their factory ships have been permitted to pillage the North sea is a disgrace, as are the words of many a UK fisheries minister in lauding every new EU deal as being good for both the fish stocks and Britain. It is noticeable that each time there is an attempt to control the Spanish and French fleets there is violence and blockades/strikes and the EU turns a blind eye to their abuse of the rules. Maybe it's time the British fleet starting acting French and blockaded ours (and their) ports, but then I've no doubt they would be arrested and pilloried by the UK government as it's just not done to protest in the UK mores the pity. My conclusion is that it's time factory ships were outlawed as they permit fleets to operate at long distances from their home base and sweep the sea clean.
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If the 'truly British' cod was so abundant before joining the EU and if the British fishing industry was so respectful of the environment what were the British trawlers looking for in the 50s, so close to the Islandic shores?
Perhaps the fisheries policy on the EU level is needed if we don't want to see gunships accompanying fishermen in the North Sea and the Baltic...
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A number of comments seem to think the decline in fish stocks is due to EU membership. The EU as a grouping is guilty of many crimes but it is a stretch to blame them for this. The North Sea is a small area close to many consumers and badly over fished. All the worlds oceans are also being catastrophically over fished to meet the demand in the wealthier nations and treaties be they multi-national, bi-national or amongst EU nations are all allowing over fishing and are not adequately policed. The EU regularly 'does the right thing' by commissioning scientific data that consistently reports we are fishing in an unsustainable manner. The problem comes when our national politicians get to their horse trading part of the process and country A accepts a weaker protection so country B supports its bid for a seat on some funding comity. If you want to blame someone try politicians at the nation state level.
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JJackson01 @ 25:
The ever-more encompassing EU system fosters that problematic horse-trading, as SuffolkBoy2 @ 11 rightly points out, between a whole bunch of EU member countries that have no rightful interest whatsoever in North Sea fishing arrangements.
Those countries that have no interest in that get to hold those countries that do to ransom over some other issue governed by the EU.
Further, opening up the North Sea to trawlers from other EU countries, as a direct result of EU membership, has quite clearly contributed to that over-fishing problem.
The CFP is economically ridiculous and environmentally damaging. So, like MaxSceptic @ 1, I also would like to know why this un-named "industry insider" seems to think more local control is not a good idea.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable reading on the BBC of someone with alleged credibility being said to have dismissed something out of hand with no explanation given as to why and not even named so their agenda / connections can be judged.
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How many of those posting comments claiming that stocks of cod are high have seen codfish so big it needs two to lift it onto the fish-counter? That's how cod used to be. It isn't now, through over-fishing.
And, by the way, after the recent banking debacle in Iceland they were said to be cotemplating an EU application. The big problem, though, would be the EU fishing policy. Makes you fink, dunnit?
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well if it was only the BRITISH fishing are own waters there would not be a problems but seeing why every tom dick and harry from the EU takes a share theres the problem EU
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frenchderek @ 27 wrote:"after the recent banking debacle in Iceland they were said to be cotemplating an EU application."
Is the EU going to bail out their over-extended banks? I don't think so!
So all that's changed is that the political elite think they spy in the financial crisis a new opportunity to justify an old goal.
Namely, to get themselves into that cosy Brussels political club.
I hope the Icelandic people don't fall for that old ploy.
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in rameswaram coast in india there is a ban
for 48 days to allow fish to breed.the system,i think was introduced by the kings
.same system could be followed.you allow fish to breed.there is no end to our greed
.some restrictions should be there.singan
india
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in rameswaram coast in india there is a system of banning fishing for 48 days in
a year.The system is introduced to allow fish breeding.same system could be introduced to coastal areas there singan
india
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There was never anything wrong with fishing stocks until it became an EU competence.
Countries should take back control of their fishing waters.
Not content with destroying the fishing waters in Europe, the EU decided to bribe corrupt African governments to fish the African fishingwaters empty too, thus destroying the livelyhood of tens of thousands of African fishermen and their families (and to consider, that with the CAP the EU had already destroyed the Afric
How can anyone support this antidemocratic EU which (through CAP and CFP) has caused so much hunger, misery and poverty in Africa? Do people who love the EU really hate Africans? Could it be that they consider Africans to be lesser people? It wouldn't surprise me, EU lovers have contempt for democracy, the will of the peoples and also for those countries in another continent than Europe. In order to build their antidemocratic EU, they are willing to destroy anything in their path.
By the way Mark, why did you fail to mention that the EU is almost 100% to blame for this problem?
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just to finish an unfinished sentence from my comment #32
Not content with destroying the fishing waters in Europe, the EU decided to bribe corrupt African governments to fish the African fishingwaters empty too, thus destroying the livelyhood of tens of thousands of African fishermen and their families (and to consider, that with the CAP the EU had already destroyed the African farmers by dumping excess food at heavily subsidized prices in African markets.
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Those thinking that the EU is to blame, or more hilariously, that the seas are still full of fish should push for more fishing then. To the order of magnitude called "fish all you can!".
But don't come bitching when the seas do run out and the whole fishing industry gets to do a Newfoundland Collapse.
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Why is everybody screwing everything up? We have all the knowledge in the world that we would ever need to stop destruction of the environment, but it all seems hopeless when money and power is all anybody is after. What can we do as concerned people besides look on in horror as what we love is killed and destroyed? What do you do when you feel like your only option left is to violently lash out against those people who are committing these atrocities? What do you do when this way of treating the environment has become a way of life for so many people and they are all too damn focused and sucked up in themselves and what they’re doing and their lives and there selfish endeavors and all the time they are aware that so much bad is being done to the world yet they won’t stop their negative actions. Everyone is under the illusion that someone else is going to solve the problem and that they can go on as they are not concerning themselves, but the fact is that when nearly everybody thinks this way, nothing is going to happen, and we are going to lose everything.
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We have the same problem here in the US, where cod stocks are way down. It's simple, really.
On one side there is the rate of harvest of a fish stock. On the other is the rate of recovery of that stock of fish from depletion. If the first exceeds the second, the stock will eventually crash. If that happens, the whole industry is out of business, and the fish may never come back.
Otherwise, we must prevent the crash from occurring, and enjoy a healthy ecosystem, a fisheries industry, and cod, long into the future. It is simply a matter of realistic resource management, choosing sustainability, forsaking short-term gain, and saving a wonderful renewable resource.
The only question is, are we wise enough to do what's right, and strong enough to do what's necessary?
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This is good example of how the profit motive fails to serve society. In modern, capitalist society, few values overrule that of profit. It's as if nothing else matters!
Yet, to destroy a whole fish population, permanently, against a few years of modest profits, split amongst a few hundred men? To destroy a major food source, in an overpopulated world, for a few years of additional business?
This is a clear example of how absurdly anti-social capitalism really is. The choice is not socialist vs capitalist, it is social vs anti-social.
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I do not see why anyone is surprised, indignant, unhappy or has any other negative emotions about the decision to ignore the scientist's findings & recommendations about fishing quotas.
It is absolutely no different to the behaviour of the govts we vote in who do not listen to their public or the experts commissioned at huge cost to the taxpayers.
More insidious is the "bullying" of smaller weaker nations to back the bigger nations who have "fish too fry".
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I do not see why anyone is surprised. Are you indignant, unhappy or have any other negative emotions? Emotions about the decision to ignore the scientist's findings & recommendations about fishing quotas.
It is absolutely no different to the behaviour of the govts we vote in who do not listen to their public or the experts commissioned at huge cost to the taxpayers.
More insidious is the "bullying" of smaller weaker nations to back the bigger nations who have "fish too fry".
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As long as we stand for it, accept it and do nothing about it we really don't have the right to be mouthing off about it unless we kick the decision makers where it really hurts. Either "put up or shut up". We get the govts & administrations we deserve. We vote them in - we can vote them out.
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