We know that the prime minister of Italy thinks the American President-elect is suntanned and the French president's wife didn't find it funny.
But could there be a European Obama? An interesting article in the New York Times says not. Any nominations? What do you think?
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Wasn't dear old Maggie Thatcher the european Obama? After all, she was (rumour has it) a women, and the first and only female leader in the West until Angela Merkel.
Sarkozy is the son of a Hungarian immigrant, has an Italian second wife and had a very public affair/divorce during his election campaign. Would that have been possible in the US?
It is quite right for the US to champion that they finally elected a President because he was the most competent man for the job. But, they should not try and pretend that they are all of a sudden the most liberal country on earth and the "old" europeans are now the arch-conservatives.
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Oh come on.
Nicolas Paul Stéphane Sarközy de Nagy-Bocsa is a second generation, part Jewish, Hungarian and Greek dwarf; how minority (in France) can you get?
Otherwise I'd gladly nominate mate called Apollo.
He knows sod all about politics, but plays a mean bass(jazz and funk), has dreadlocks, is much Blacker than Mr. Obama (from Rwanda), is Muslim but enjoys Hoegaarden every so often. :P
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Well, one interesting thing about the US primary system is the ability of someone like Obama to appeal directly to the electorate over the heads of his own party. That kind of rapid rise to prominence from relative obscurity is much harder in a parliamentary system. I don't know enough about the rest of Europe, but in the UK we can say with almost certainty that we already know who the party leaders at the next election will be, so that's the next six or seven years accounted for. And since whichever party loses the next election is likely to hold a leadership election very soon afterwards, the next leader is likely to be someone who is already a senior figure on the party (i.e. almost certainly white), so that probably accounts for another four or five years as well, taking us up to about 2020...
Obviously the further forward into the future you try to predict the more uncertain it gets, but I'm not about to hold my breath.
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#1, V40man, Poland had a woman prime minister in 1992-1993 - Hanna Suchocka.
The current Polish prime minister Donald Tusk is ethnically Kashubian (it's a white minority, but still it's a step in the right direction).
Sooner or later there will be a European Obama, and most probably that'll happen also thanks to the American Obama - his presidency is likely to change perceptions of race in many positive ways. The only question remains, who will be the first to follow suit.
Interestingly, in Poland, with its very small black community (a result of not participating in colonialism and being isolated by the Iron Curtain) at least three black public officials have been elected by popular vote to regional and municipal assemblies in recent years - Eric Alira (originally from Burkina Faso) in Lower Silesia, Godson Onyekwere (Nigerian) in Lodz and Killion Munyama (Zambian) in Greater Poland. It seems only a matter of time before there'll be a black Polish MP. The Polish parliament sets no electoral threshold for registered ethnic minority parties (for other parties it's minimum 5%).
I don't think Poland will be the first European country to shatter the glass ceiling, but who knows - if Poland had a woman prime minister only two years after regaining sovereignty from the Soviet Union, why shouldn't there be a black high-ranking Polish politician sooner than anybody expects?
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The end of the New York Times article says it all...
Quote from the article:
---
But the conservative Le Figaro blamed French minorities themselves for part of their exclusion. The paper noted that Mr. Obama?s success was based on his upbringing, education and success at integrating into the larger society and articulating its values, including patriotism.
?From this point of view, Obama should be the model to follow for young immigrants who have come to doubt their feeling of belonging to the nation,? the paper said. ?Minorities, who have chosen their exile, in contrast to black Americans, still have a lot to prove.?
---
To this I agree strongly. In Europe we have free universal health care and free public education. If you are unprivileged in Europe, its lot easier for one to better his or her life via work and education.
Some may disagree this, but from my view and experience this is all true. Many of my friends in university were from unprivileged families that never had more money than welfare gave, still they managed to rise and get their masters degrees and go forth in society. Even more, if I look at my parents generation, there are even more examples of people rising from poverty via education and hard work.
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Once again the election of Obama presents the world with a demonstration of the vast differences between European and American civilizations, much of which is not quantifiable. It stems from a different perception of the way people look at life in general, themselves, and each other. There is no way to overcome this cultural divide which is intrinsic in the respective societies. America recognized it had a racial problem and slowly but surely dealt with it. The election of Obama is not "a small revolution" as one interviewee in the article put it, it is the inevitable outcome of a process that began a long time ago and continues on. While America hasn't achieved its ideals and possibly never will, it hasn't stopped striving for them. But for Europeans, you can't solve a problem when you don't even acknowledge that you have one. I lived in France 35 years ago and while racism was rampant and obvious there, nobody even talked about it, they pretended it didn't exist as most still do. They also spent their efforts finding ways to criticize America instead of fixing their own country. That may have made them feel good but it did nothing to improve France. Not only is there no Obama anytime soon on the horizon for Europe, there can't be because all of the things which preceded him like Martin Luthor King, Supreme Court judges and politicians who fought institutionalized racism, and the groundswell of change in the popular culture among all races in America relfected in the civil rights movement, a necessary precursor to an Obama which takes decades hasn't started either. No, Europe remains for this and many other reasons a decidedly inferior civilization to America's. And the proof, that despite his inexperience in government, he brings intelligence, talents, energy, ideas just like Americans of all races do to society which would go wasted, rejected, ignored by lesser civilizations. How can you compete against a society which makes the best use of all its human capital when you dismiss a sizeable portion of your own? This goes for all other countries as well. Those who sell America short don't understand what they are up against. Those who did and challenged it brought nothing but ruin to themselves and their societies.
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Europeans electing a non-white leader? Never going to happen, at least not with the current atmosphere perhaps in the future.
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To MarcusAureliusII (6):
Damn man, you would make a good comedian.
Please, be my guest and go to ghettos in US and go there to preach that in America all people are equal and have equal opportunities.
US is a class society. If you born into poverty the likelihood you staying in poverty is not just high, its staggeringly high. Actually in US an infant has double the risk to die in birth than an infant born in Nordic countries, the chances are also better almost in everywhere in Europe. It would be really interesting to know how much higher infant mortality in lower class families in US is than in upper classes. Now when an child grows, well, poor neighborhoods have the worst schools and collages and universities are out of class for poor.
You preach about racism and put US in the pedal, but I just can't understand how you can do this when in the same time you let vast amounts of people to live in the gutter.
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Two important points here. Firstly, I would hope that Obama was not elected because of his race. As with so many areas in life, we are becoming plagued with political correctness. I am in no way a racist and if a European politician were to come forward with the right combination of intelligence, sensitivity, ability, style, and above all policies, I would support him/her regardless of colour, creed, gender or orientation but the overwhelming consideration would be whether this person was right for the job.
Secondly, it is necessary for the right people to come forward. There seems to be a polarisation among the young in racial minorities in Britain between radicalism on the one hand and indifference on the other. Those who are prepared to embrace the mainstream seem fairly small.
What I find completely unacceptable, especially in an age of great scepticism about the quality of the present generation of politicians, is a willingness to exclude people of great potential on the basis of all-women short lists and other forms of positive discrimination. Obama's election is significant but it is only a first step. If after 4 or 8 years, he has turned his potential into achievement, that will be the moment when people will say you don't have to be white to do a decent job. Meanwhile, we should select our leaders solely on merit
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#6 - MarcusAureliusII
I entirely agree but I hope you would concede that Obama has been elected on merit and not because of the colour of his skin.
Also, you need to accept that African Americans are far more willing to engage with the political mainstream than their European counterparts. It may be the fault of the political classes that so many of their coloured nationals seem disaffected and disinterested but it does not bode well for someone coming forward.
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#9, threnodio,
I could not agree more, it is a great shame that positive discrimination has been present both overtly and covertly for many years. In the UK the local selection committees have long had their hands tied as to who is to be most favoured and often it resulted in a bunch of yes men or fanatic feminists getting selected when far more qualified candidates were rejected. I was part of a selection committee once for my local MP and remember being totally fed up with the pressure put on us by the party HQ to select the right person for them.
As far as Obama is concerned he is after all of mixed race and when you remember how many of mixed race and ethnic minority there are in the UK it won't be long before the leader of a party is either mixed race or from an ethnic minority. There are already many ethnic local politicians and MP's so it's only a matter of time now, but like threnodio I just hope the selection is based on merit rather than origin or gender.
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Marcus Aurelius was indeed responsible - for appointing Septimus Severus to the Senate in 172CE. Elected emperor by his legion in 193CE, Severus took over Rome at the point of a sword.
He was Roman on his mother's side, and either Berber of Phoenician on his father's side.
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I think it is important to point out that while 12.4% of the US population is black only about 2% of the British population is black, and the US only has such a huge black population because of their terrible actions in the past regarding slavery.
Therefore I believe it unfair and arrogant of the US and in particular this reporter to speak of the US like such a liberal country, when infact the UK has had a reputation for being the MOST liberal for centuries.
The UK has had a female prime minister before, which is just as important as having a black one, and while this reporter mentions the only 1 MP in Italian parliament, he fails to mention that the UK govt has an obligation to fulfill various ethnic quotas (whether that be good or bad.)
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I for one hope the African system of race-based (ethnic-based, tribe-based) voting never makes head ways here in Europe.
However, I do approve of national-based voting. Because the true sovereignty and democracy takes place at the national level. Not at EU level where the politburo is elected and government ministers (EU council) usurp national parliaments powers.
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The election of Mr Obama is an effective response of USA citizens to European's expressed wish and crawling willingness to become again a center of the world. They have proved the wheel of history is not turning reverse.
We can see in Europe a permanent lack of better criteria for better world, a burden of historical differences, also vanities. Europe is unfortunately very much permeated with nepotism, in whatever modern shape it may appear. This is probably the reason for not having the constitution yet, which is the fundamental condition for the Europe to represent anything effectively and noticable in today's world, which is always hungry for democracy.
On the other side we can see, for the first time, the man is trully educated, defined as educated and smart not with the help of his uncle's position. What is most disturbing to all that possible remnants of the history now is the fact that the color of the skin, nationality or even the citizenship is no longer main criterium for the selection of the best.
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@lostluckyfish (13)
This kind of accounting, statistics about human colors or genoms, is exactly oposite to the mention event on the other continent, calling the attention of entire world.
This proves nothing, except that european parlaments still reflect the past.
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The most interesting feature of the election of Barack Obama is that the African-American ethnic group of America is approximately 13% of the total demographic population. 95% of this group voted and 90+% of those who voted, did so for Barack Obama.
Barack Obama was elected with approximately 52% of the popular vote, i.e. very approximately 40% of the non-African-American population voted for Obama.
This means that there is strong probability that individual African-Americans voted for Barack Obama because he was black but the greater majority of pro-Obama voters voted for their man on the basis of calibre and not skin.
On the other hand, aproximately 48% of people did not vote for Obama and one must conclude that a proportion of those voters would have voted against him because of Obama's skin colour.
One can suggest colour was a factor and significant feature of voting decisions BUT sufficient numbers of non-African-American people voted for Obama to make this an extremely interesting result depsite rather than because of the colour of the winning candidate.
The most interesting statistical fact that arose from the Presidential election was that 90% of the African-American group voted in this election but, in fact, this turnout is only a 2% increase in their votes during the last Presidential election. Thus the African-American vote did not increase that significantly because there was black candidate and it is plain that the African-American ethnic group are far more committed to democracy in the USA and using their voting rights more than in Europe where figures as high as 95% of afro-carribean or african origin voters actually casting their vote would be unimaginable.
If, these two groups begin to actively engage in politics with sufficient numbers in European countries then the possibility of Europe mirroring the USA is entirely possible.
The proviso will always be that, the candidate, as does Barack Obama, despite being black (or asian) must also have politically acceptable merits for the majority ethnic group in Europe (which remains very high percentage and Caucasian) to ignore his colour and they must feel that he/she has the merits to make the role of leader acceptable to them.
Ultimately, this means that the future potential African or Afro-Caribbean Candidate who can be considered to be suitable to be elected a leader in Europe will be elected on merit and despite the colour of his skin. As it is the case with Barack Obama.
In these circumstances, the difference between the USA and Europe is not that great but the one dividing feature that separates Europe from America is that the ethnic groups of Africans and Afro-Caribbeans of Europe are currently not that engaged with the political processes of Europe and it's nations thus the possibility of Europe emulating America is a long way off.
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Don't we have enough light-weight politicians of our own?
Oh, sorry, I see.... You're discussing Obama's merits as a black/mixed raced person rather than his virtues (or lack of them) as a politician....
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Really, the only thing the article demonstrates is the ignorance of its writers. One really has to wonder why you consider worthwhile to link to, filled as it is with inaccuracy and pandering to prejudice and stereotype (its the NY Times after all, which is like a genteel version of The Sun without The Sun's basic honesty of purpse)?
Britain was a nation of Immigrants long before America declared its independence. Perhaps we could reflect on the quite remarkable prime minister D'Israeli and his heritage. And as for firsts, The Democratic Party still is unable and unwilling to bridge the gender gap, that Britain, and now Germany (and others) have all crossed.
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I would say the certainly a black man could be Prime Minister in the UK. Race is much less of an issue in Britain than the USA, such that the fuss about the issue being made in the US would not be repeated here.
Even those saying a balck man could not become British PM are not saying the British people would not vote for such a figure. They are saying the political system makes it less likely. It is clear that there is a big difference between American politicians (chosen by the people) and British politicians (chosen by other politicians). In the London mayoral campaigns we see a different type of politician emerging in the UK who is less Gordon Brown style policy-wonk and more man of the people. I can easily imagine a black mayor of London. If the major British parties held primaries for their candidates to Westminster constituencies then I think we would see a new type of politician appearing in Parliament too.
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I want to believe that Obama was elected because he is smart and is perceived as someone who can effectively tackle the complex issues of our times. Is there someone like him in Europe? Well, I'm kind of hopeless in this respect. As Italian following the Italian politics from the US, I wish that some politicians had just a 1% of Obama's personality, but the scenario is really gloomy. Anyway, I really hope there is an European Obama who can lead all EU countries in the 21st century.
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I'm a brown-skinned American living in Europe - I agree WORD FOR WORD with MarcusAureliusII analysis of European racism and how America has overcome it over a long and period of self-correction.
You can't solve a problem that you refuse to accept. All the touchy European posts just prove his point.
To the poster who saw this as NY Times' ignorance of Europe - I vehemently disagree. If anything, the NYT consistently gives Europeans the benefit of the doubt...including here. Sadly, as many of the posts here and on the Guardian and reactions to trevor Philips prove, Europeans overwhelmigly refuse to engage in any sort of introspection on this issue...choosing instead to blame the immigrants. In that sense, the NYT is giving Europeans way too much credit.
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There is a distinction to be made here between Europe and America. In the U.S there are a large percentage of Black people who can trace there family history back to the birth of the Nation and rightly feel Patriotism for their Country.
Where as the Majority of Black people in Europe are recent Migrants with only one or two Generations of history in Europe. They therefore have less effinity with their Nation and are less inciened to participate.
As for MAII's comment it is exactly what i expected from him and his Supremacist tendancies. Talk of 'lesser civilizations' shows your predudices. You may have ended the Majority Racism between Americans (I think in some respects Menedemus inadvetantly proves this to be false)
Shame you can't extend the rest of the world the same curtisy.
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Rotterdam's new mayor is one Mr Ahmed Aboutaleb who holds a Moroccan as well as a Dutch passport.
So yes. I think the Dutch for one are entirely capable of electing a prime minister who isn't white.
Bear in mind that some of Mr Obama's stances (pro death penalty, anti gay marriage etc.) are deemed extreme even by Holland's extreme right leader Geert Wilders.
America isn't nearly as liberal or open minded as the New York Times would like it to be.
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Well of course you could never have an Obama running Europe - They don't bother letting us have a vote !!!
Let us implement democracy before worrying about crazy concepts like equality, which are a generation away for the EU...
And anyone who thinks racism doesn't exist in Britain or within the BBC needs to check this out..
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Local-BBC-radio-presenter-sacked/article-464172-detail/article.html
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To hjuneja (22):
Excuse me, but how can you be so certain that your experiences aren't caused for you being an American?
Just simple questions...
Do you talk fluently the native language?
Do you know the history and the culture of the host country?
From my experience, the conflicts that most Americans have had in Europe, are due to their own attitudes and lack of knowledge and understanding of the local culture.
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I think a lot of the European and UK posters here are missing the point.
First, the UK *does* have a history of slavery. It just did not, until relatively recently, allow *some* of the descendants of slaves to live in the country. This is why most of the descendants of British slavery live in the Caribbean and not in the UK.
Second, saying "I can imagine a black PM" is missing the point. In the US, the black minority is the largest and the one with the largest problem of racism. So, a more comparable analogy would be a Pakistani for the UK, a Turk for Germany, a Moroccan in France, etc. I won't hold my breath for any of these attaining the head of government anytime soon. Part of the reason is the complete denial of racism in Europe (while, oddly, obsessing about US racism).
Third, some have argued that they simply don't have a minority politician with the same sort of skills as Obama. The question that this begs, naturally, is why not?
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What an ignorant article. It as usually makes Britain, France, Germany equal Europe. Well Europe is a continent with far more countries. Not all of them have connection to colonialism or significant ethnic minorities, so racial integration isn't an issue they are concerned about. Poland for example has circa 95 ethnic Poles, and as most of the minorities are white, the issue of racial integration is not an important topic in Polish politics. Why should we be concerned with issues of other countries like France or Britain with their colonial past ? It's their problem not ours. NY article completely fails to understand, out of ignorance that not all Europe is France, Germany, Britain, and that for countries on the European continent the issue of immigrants or racial integration is important.
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1. Probably more interest will be given Obama's "ethnicity" in Europe than in the U.S..
2. As mentioned by other bloggers, Obama was not elected based on his skin colour.
3. Can there be a European Obama? Well, yes, any good and sound politician who knows how to communicate to the masses is a European Obama irrespective of his/her shade of "tan".
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The UK has the history of abolishing Slavery! A practice that had been around for thousands of years which we began to end. (mostly successfully all around the world)
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Perhaps more relevant comparision should be made:Would Germans elect a Pole to be their Chancellor ? After all the German-Turkish relation is marked by various things-including cooperation in WW1, the German-Polish relation is more similiar to history of persecution the Afro-Americans experienced in USA-although of course the G-P one is much more horrible, with the attempted genocide.
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24. daquanqm wrote:So yes. I think the Dutch for one are entirely capable of electing a prime minister who isn't white.
Dutch mayors aren't the head of the municipal government nor are they elected by the people but by politicians and then the appointment has to be confirmed by the Queen before it becomes official.
The question is would the Dutch people elect someone called Ahmed Aboutaleb as their prime-minister? I'm saying no. :)
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hello everybody, i see that that Marcus obnoxious is still as racist and caricatural as ever, but that came as no surprise...the reason why I'm writing this is just to let you know that I'm bewildered by the utter level of hypocrisy in most of the messages !
UK would be the closest of all European countries to reach the goal of electing a coloured man ?! Seriously ?!!! But wouldn't it be more realistic to be reaching for the first step (yeah i know, Thatcher was a woman, I'll grant you that...but so white, so old England, and ultimately, so racist and reactionary !), which in my opinion, would be to elect a son or a daughter of immigrant descent, because...we did it in France (yes, that disgusting country that Marcus so loves...), with our: part Hungarian, part Greek Jew President ! And that certainly says a lot about the pseudo unchanged racism of France (which by the way, has both the largest Arab AND Jewish communities in Europe ! God, we're so racist !), and is a concrete step in the right direction, which is more than i can say about a vast majority of western democracies (including the UK)!
So guys, lets be serious for a second here, we all need to learn how to walk before we can run !
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32. Ticape wrote:
" The question is would the Dutch people elect someone called Ahmed Aboutaleb as their prime-minister? I'm saying no"
I say yes. Pim Fortuyn would've most likely been elected Prime Minister had he not been assassinated, and he was openly gay. I don't see that happening in America any time soon.
I know Mr Aboutaleb wasn't elected by the people of Rotterdam, but various internet polls by established newspapers such as the Volkskrant and Trouw indicate only a very small percentage of Dutch people had a problem with his appointment. Many even hailed it as a milestone in the integration process of minorities.
Mr Aboutaleb has proven himself to be a capable politician. i think if he were to lead the Labor Party (or be #2 behind Wouter Bos), they would do well in the polls.
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Since the western civilization and democracy according to history started in Greece, then Greece should lead again the way for finding the *European OBAMA*, possibly a roma/gypsis from Greece?
What do you say? is it still possible for histroy to repeat itself and Greece become again European civilization and democracy...?
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I find people saying Europe wouldn't have an obama of its own. Didn't Europe fully support Obama's election? I remember some polls saying 90+% French would have voted for Obama or something in that order of magnitude. Clearly if Europe was overly racist we all support would have been for McCain. Those who claim Europeans don't see their own racism towards black are also ignorant. Racisms towards blacks is an issue in an europe, but it is not as big an issue as it is in america. For example racisms towards muslims is a much bigger issue currently (it is sad to put issues in order, of course battling racisms against blacks is important) and racisms towards muslims and muslims in europe has been talked a lot and I'm sure not many people are ignorant.
For open mindedness in USA, those who consider europeans ignorant on issues on black can look at the presidental election now, and what kind of reaction the idea that Obama would be a muslim created in people. The best example is Colin Powell's endorsement speech where he admits that the republican party has a great fear of muslims.
This is where I think America and Europe are greatly different. Where America may have faced the problem of racisms towards blacks and won it, it has a great deal of racistic problems still left to win. Europe is more self-aware of its problems in my opinion. It tries to juggle between more minorities than just the blacks and thus no big leaps will be made at one time. Still it is difficult for me to believe an european saying in tv "we can't vote for him, he's an arab" like we saw multiple times during the US elections.
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I think it's important to note that while Obama is coloured, he has the same background as most Americans. He is a Christian and socially conservative. Most Western-Europeans see the immegrants as a danger to liberal thinking.
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"I find people saying Europe wouldn't have an obama of its own. Didn't Europe fully support Obama's election"
Europe is not a country, it's a continent. Opinion varied from country to country.
"Those who claim Europeans don't see their own racism towards black are also ignorant."
To speak about a common European opinion is as to speak about common Asian one.
I am sure the opinions on racism and relation to African people in countries located on European continet such as Albania, Russia, Norway, Poland, Portugal are varied and based on each indivdual background and history.
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It is debates such as these which tend to perpetuate the problem. The trick is not to support someone because he or she is from a racial minority and not in spite of it. When and if we reach the point when nobody actually notices, that could be considered progress. More to the point, we might get back to looking at policy rather tan status.
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I find it quite amusing watching the news programs when they declare that Obama?s victory prove that anyone can be US president now. I wonder what are the chances an openly gay person or a professed atheist to be elected there. To be honest I think gay person stands better chance than an atheist.
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OK the US are to be congratulated on electing Obama, but this is still largely the same bunch that wanted to "Kick Ass" in Iraq.
Maybe the past 8 years in US politics deserves some reflection.
Instead its " we elected Obama, so we're on the moral highground again, now lets attack Europe".
Tell me is it cold up there?
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38. At 5:08pm on 13 Nov 2008, KrzysztofPoland wrote:
*I am sure the opinions on racism and relation to African people in countries located on European continet such as Albania, Russia, Norway, Poland, Portugal are varied and based on each indivdual background and history.*
why you have choosen Poland, which does not have a history of colonization in Africa?
maybe Portugal, or Spain , GB, France, etc
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I'm confused, we're not racist, and yet we have state sponsored targets for the number of minorities in workforces? Positive discrimination is just as bad for both parties involved as negative discrimination - imagine the reaction to a rule which stated 95% of a workforce had to be white!
As soon as you start treating people in a different manner due to their race (as our country does in it's misguided attempts to encourage 'diversity') you are being racist!
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It's a silly question! Why should there be a European Obama any more than the Japanese should expect a 'European' to lead them? The man isn't yet U.S. president and without knowing much or anything about him (as has been preciously evident!), or seeing whether he's capable of organizing that proverbial booze-party in a brewery, you're talking about the possibility of an Obama-like figure being a leader in Europe. You've lost your marbles!
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It is wonderful that the best candidate won the US Presidential election. I had always believed the USA to be institutionally racist. My real worry is that 98% of Afro/Americans voted for a fellow Afro/American. Could this be a racist stance or evidence that either the Democrats were brilliant at turning out their vote or that McCain was a lost cause?
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"why you have choosen Poland, which does not have a history of colonization in Africa?
maybe Portugal, or Spain , GB, France, etc"
The text and comments make no difference between countries of Europe and their unique cultures and histories, but instead collectively describe them as some undefined "europeans". Poland is in Europe. Either don't be ignorant and carefully select what you are using as example and seperate the specific countries you talk about, or don't burden us with other's sins.
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"Instead its " we elected Obama, so we're on the moral highground again, now lets attack Europe"."
Where is USA talking about attacking whole European continent ? What would be the merit of that action if it is a base to several friendly states openly wishing as close as possible relations with United States government.
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In America there is a strong tendency, and a good one, for immigrants and particularly their children to want to become 'American'. I am one of those. I was born to immigrant parents in the states. While I take alot of pride in my heritage, I consider myself most certainly American. I am proud to be an American despite its flaws. I would also say that the way I feel is more of the rule and not the exception. I wonder if Turkish kids in Germany or Moroccan kids in France or African kids in England feel the same way about their respective countries?
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Re post 40, you are right, wonder what the chance would be if they were muslim
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Before we all get too carried away - can I remind all out there that Obama is a politician.
Self 1st
Party 2nd
Country 3rd
The people well........
Only time will tell if he bucks this trend and does any real good.
Sorry to be a party pooper.
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at #46 KrzysztofPoland,
Russia is not European country, same as Turkey, so don't tell me that 5% of their territory makes them European countries.
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WHICH IS MOST RACIST COUNTRY IN EUROPEAN UNION?
for a start i would say: SWITZERLAND
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DO NOT expect to see a "European Obama" in the countries like ;
Austria, Germany ,France or Greece where Racism against Minorities, Immigrants and African origin people is the WORST in Europe !!!
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First of all ; i do not understand European
fascination with Obama.
Obama is for sure elected for merit. but he is american president and he would fight for american interests - either supporting the Wall Street with 30& profit rate - could be only compared to drugs trafficking or prostitution profit-
or taking sides with the Supporters of subsiding of auto industry - the conversation has jusst begun.
2. If Mark asked about European Obama - meaning - are we going to have charismatic leaders here in Europe some day ?
I do not know - but I strongly hope.
Crowds celebrating Obama in Europe could
be partly explained by scarcity of national leaders. Merkel in Germany , Brown or Sarkosy lack charisma. I am not talking about
anecdotic Kachinski brothers.
3.If we speak about race ? I do not think that here in Europe we have strong racism problem. There
are Turkish Parliament Members in Germany, Sarkosi example ? is a good demonstration of
Egalitarianism but also of elite system of the French republic.
4. But I am sure in 10 -20 -30 years when Europe will be united , maybe without Britain , or some other countries , with French and Germany being the Heart of it ? we will get magnetic and fascinating European Leader , whom crowds will run after.
Though , I suppose we had it here many years ago with negative results.
5. The problem Is ? that democratic system ? like in USA ? can produce undemocratic, radical and even fascist
Leaders -.
Obama won ? because a lot of Republicans decided that they do not want somebody like
Sarah Palin ? the representative of the American radical evangelical right to grab the power ? in case Mc Cain ?(he is 72)- dies.
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"Russia is not European country, same as Turkey, so don't tell me that 5% of their territory makes them European countries."
Russia's is located on much bigger area of European continent then Turkey.
Although both are on European continent and thus are European countries.
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Russia is located 95% on Asia, so is an Asiatic country, same as 95% of Turkey in the middle east.
Majority wins, therefore they are Asia and Middle-East. Discussion closed.
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#54 "5. The problem Is ? that democratic system ? like in USA ? can produce undemocratic, radical and even fascist
Leaders -. "
This really is Alice in Wonderland stuff - you are worried about 'democratic system' because it 'can produce undemocratic...Leaders..'
Crikey, let us not bother with 'democratic system' then, why not have an 'undemocratic system' which might also produce ' fascist Leaders', but without all that expensive and complicated stuff to do with candidates and campaigns and, er, voting...
Truly this is the politics of the mad-house. If you think 'democratic system' with national governments is bad, you should really try the alternative...
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If Turkey is Europe, why not Israel too?
Turkey's and Russia's capitals are not located in Europe, therefore they belong to Middle East and Asia.
Understand?
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For me MarcusAureliusII and hjuneja sum things up best. Sadly many of the other posts having the look/sound of a red herring about them.
People like Jukka_Rohila suggesting that Europe is better because it has this social security system or another, or it's just a case of 'integrating' and how much help is available, is like Flemish people here telling me how they never had this problem or that while I, as a EU citizen, spent however many damn years (solicitors and all) fighting to get a card just to show I live here. Amazing how many of those 'opportunities' you can be locked out of when you're a 'foreigner' one way or another even when you speak the language.
Many here, as a Scottish friend said to me some time ago, 'just don't get it'. Barack Obama may have come from the left of the field, but the US, like the UK, has shown more than enough signs that electing someone from an ethnic minority could be possible. From people presenting programmes on television, to having their own show, to CEOs of companies like Yahoo and others, comedians, chefs, elected officials, spokes-people and God knows what. In most of Europe, with some exceptions, you'll be lucky to see someone from an ethnic minority or a 'foreigner' present the weather a few minutes a day, or be a 'co-presentor' for a few weeks during the summer holidays...in a decade.
Regarding the situation in the UK, while there still might be problems, for a start I'd suggest that Trevor Phillips looks up his namesake on www.100greatblackbritons.com, and anyone else there move to Europe for a few years and put things in perspective (if they're not a BNP supporter of course).
The day I see a programme like ?Love Thy Neighbour? on European television I might believe things have changed...
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"If Turkey is Europe, why not Israel too?"
Israel is not located on European continent.
"Russia is located 95% on Asia, so is an Asiatic country"
That's wrong. A fair larger part of Russia then 5% is located in Europe.
"Majority wins, therefore they are Asia and Middle-East. Discussion closed."
Geography is not democracy, they are European located countries just as Asian located ones. France, Britain have territories outside of European continent also.
"Turkey's and Russia's capitals are not located in Europe"
Moscow is not located in Europe ? Oh dear.
So where is the border of European continent according to you ? :D
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"Obama is for sure elected for merit. but he is american president and he would fight for american interests"
And hopefully will. American interests serve people located on European continent as well, no matter the country. We should be greatefull for American help in combating Nazism and Communism-all products of biggest European countries Russia and Germany.
European countries like Russia or Germany have brought so much death and murderer to the world. The world should not trust somebody defining himself as European- with its legacy of genocide, colonialism, exploitation.
USA, China have much cleaner record then leading European states such as Russia or Germany. While I am personally a human leaving on European continent , I put my faith in the future of humanity in Asia and USA. Those who define themself as Europe I wish to pass away.
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I don't know exactly where Europe borders are. But i dont think Russia is European. Maybe someone unbiased can help..
Was it Sarkozy who suggested the formation of an elite of wise man to define Europe? What happen to that?
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Hope you didnt pass away since you didnt limit yourself not only at being a European, but made Russia and Turkey European as well :D
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"Excuse me, but how can you be so certain that your experiences aren't caused for you being an American?"
Jukka_Rohila: Very simple, many Europeans can never get past my skin color and thus will never accept me as American to begin with.
So for me I have a very simple and, I would argue, relatively objective test of whether or not certain nationalities are more racist than others: if they see me as American, by definition they are not racist (ie they are able to see past my race / skin color). If the keep asking me "where I am originally from" despite the fact that I am a second generation American, then by definition they are racist (i.e. they are not able to see past my skin color).
Based on personal experience, though, Europe is a very diverse place and some countries are naturally less racist than others. But still, none is as open and accepting as the United States and Canada (and, to be fair, most of the Americas which are all immigrant melting pots). Americans and Canadians will label me American virtually always.
For your interest though, I can share with you a list based on my extensive business and personal travel through Europe over the last decade:
More Likely to See Me as American (i.e. less racist):
Denmark
Holland
Ireland
Norway
Sweden
Spain - though could be because most there mistake me for Spanish...I find my personal experience in Spain hard to square with its monkey noises towards black athletes, fake slit eyes of the Olympic basketball team, etc.
More Likely to See Me as Where My Grandparents are From (i.e. more racist):
Britain
France
Switzerland
Germany
Austria
Italy
Belgium
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62 - karolina001
The border between Europe and Asia is considered to be along the upper peaks of the Urals which puts about 40% of the Russian land mass within Europe but I belive something over 60% of the population. It is not unreasonable to regard Russia as European in my view.
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"Hope you didnt pass away since you didnt limit yourself not only at being a European, but made Russia and Turkey European as well"
Most people do.
As to European-to me that means just living on the continent of Europe. My identity is Polish. I was writining about the followers of the EU ideological movement that claims some "european identity" for the sake of controling our lives.
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"Where America may have faced the problem of racisms towards blacks and won it, it has a great deal of racistic problems still left to win. Europe is more self-aware of its problems in my opinion. It tries to juggle between more minorities than just the blacks and thus no big leaps will be made at one time."
First of all, it might be helpful to learn a little more about American society before you launch your criticism. Americans (not just "US Citizens" but fully vested "Americans") come from every corner of this planet. Blacks are not even the largest minority in America - hispanics are. Asians (including Chinese, Indians, etc.) are the fastest growing majority and in many ways the most influential - in fact, the next Republican president of the United States could be Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, the 37 yo son of immigrants from India. Jews, who Europeans killed in the millions not too long ago solely on account of their religion, are of course another important minority group in the United States.
To argue, then that America only has to balance one minority is not just ignorant objectively but also subjectively: America has no need to "balance" because Americans at the end of the day are far more likely to see themselves as American at the end of the day, and not primarily as members of immigrant groups. Furthermore, the American white mainstream is far more likley to share power in government, business and other parts of society with immigrants and their offspring...rather than seeing minority groups as problems which need to be "balanced."
Look, if you want to criticize the United States, you have every God-given right to do so. But please learn a little bit about America before criticizing it...and who, knows, perhaps if you learn more about America (and in pariticular it's amazing ability to assimilate non-white immigrants), you'll find yourself admiring certain parts of American society and will think about bringing some of those ideas back to this side of the Atlantic.
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"Jews, who Europeans killed in the millions not too long ago"
I always thought it was Nazi Germany. But know I learn British, Poles, Albanians, Norwegians, Portugese, Swiss are responsible as well.
"solely on account of their religion"
Milions of Jews were killed because of their religion ? I am afraid you find that atheist Jews or converts were murdered as well by Nazi Germany, which used a racial criteria.
Of course its nice that USA took Jews in, but you shouldn't forget that you also let in some responsible for things like Naliboki Massacre.
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It's not a good idea to read too much into one single occurrence. I mean, Pakistan has a better record on electing female prime ministers than any Western country except New Zealand or maybe Norway, but does that mean that women's rights are more advanced there?
Minorities are much longer established in the US, the Blacks have been there for hundreds of years. Blacks in have only been in Europe for fifty years, and there are far fewer of them. Obviously these things take time, and in any case most new arrivals want to get proper jobs and not fanny around in politics.
Regarding the statistics: there are a lot of misleading ones! That there are 800,000 German citizens of Turkish descent, but only 5 of them are in the Bundestag out of 613. Now, 800,000 is slightly less than 1% of the population, so if they had 6 people in the Bundestag, they would have perfect representation! As an aside, I can fully appreciate the Germans' unease with Turks in parliament; the vast majority of the Turks are not only not integrated but do not want to be integrated (unlike the other minorities in the country).
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#64, hjuneja,
You said "if they see me as American, by definition they are not racist (ie they are able to see past my race / skin color)", I'm saddened that anyone can use such a foolish test to define racism. I quite frankly don't care where the people I meet in Belgium think I originally came from as it's curiosity, the only salient point is that now I'm Belgian. It seems to me that you are simply looking for a chance to claim racism and of course you'll misinterpret the signs to justify your beliefs. Try just being 'cool'.
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I'm an American (heah stop your hissing)
and frankly I'm getting a little tired of all the back patting going on in this country.
Yes, Yes, Obama is black and so is Colin Powell and Condi Rice. And Bobby Jindal of SouthAsian Ancestry (gvnr of Louisiana) is already being mentioned as a future Republican POTUS candidate. Yes in 2008 a mormon (MR), a woman(HC), and a corpse (JM) all had good chances of becoming president. Yes i see non-white faces daily on the TV and in my personal life.
But I dont see America being so sconds beyond Europe or having come even close to overcoming its diversity problems.
Brits have elected a women (MT), a jewish ancestry (BD'I) , and even a Scot (GB).
France has a Hungarian Jewish Greek Pres whos main opponent last election was a Women.
The Dutch may have made Pym an openly gay man PM and lets not forget their very visible female Somali MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
Liberia, Indonesia, Bangladesh all have had women presidens or pms.
Yes when there is an Irishman or Pakistani leading the UK, an Algerian leading France, a Chechnyan leading Russia, an Armenian leading Turkey, an Arab leading Israel, an Aborigine Aussie PM and a Tibetan leading China - my jaw will drop. (Heck if the EU even lets Turkey into the bloc, I'll prbly faint)
But unless any of these leaders takes the fundamental steps to improve the quality of life and governance in their country and the world, these landmarks will be minor trivia in the broad scope of history. Hopefully Obama will do a great job - even tho Bushy boy has really screwed things up over the last 8yrs and he's got a lot of work to do with not much cash.
He has charisma and intellect but can he redefine America for the better like GW, TJ, AL, TR, FDR, RR or will he amount to little more than the Benjamin Harrison level?
Reguardless i still expect to find ghettos/barrios, hate crimes, and failing schools speckling America when he leaves office.
AND I guarantee the US is still very far from electing a HalfBlack, Half daughter of an illegal immigrant, Muslim Lesbian President!
Despite the xenophobic wings of many parties in Europe (the US def has them too), given the birth rates of whites vs the birth and immigration rates of non's - You'all might have a minority leader faster than you expect.
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I thought MAII hated Obama....
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69. "the vast majority of the Turks are not only not integrated but do not want to be integrated (unlike the other minorities in the country)"
You know I regulary hear people say the same things about Mexicans in the US. It may be true it may not be. Although many of the Mexican immigrants i've met (illegal and legal alike) do want to learn English, do want to learn more about the US - but find it difficult between supporting a family, working multiple low paying jobs, sending money home, and having a poor education to start with to do so. They are also often shocked to meet a white person who can communicate with them and is willing to help/treat them fairly - Its amazing how friendly people become when you take the time to get to know them as individuals.
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"Yes when there is an Irishman or Pakistani leading the UK, an Algerian leading France, a Chechnyan leading Russia, an Armenian leading Turkey, an Arab leading Israel, an Aborigine Aussie PM and a Tibetan leading China - my jaw will drop. "
Hmm....In that case your comparision isn't that good. After all USA still has to elect a Native American for president.
Then your comparision would have merit.
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to ALL graduates of the british public schools
and their followers - the border betweeen
Europe and Asia are Urals - beautiful region !!!.
So Russia is geografically 40% Europe and 60% Asia.
Culturally - of course European.
ANd , what a surprise - completely not antisemitic - compared to Poland - which
eradicated its last Jews after the WOrld War II in the last European pogroms and now pretends being politically correct and european , after , i am sorry,#
serving the american plate.
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#26 Jukka_Rohila:
You protest too much. What are you hiding?
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KrzysztofPoland:
Hmm....In that case your comparision isn't that good. After all USA still has to elect a Native American for president.
Then your comparision would have merit.
I'm not seeing the disagreement - Yes the US does need to bring Native Americans into the highest levels of power. As well as every other group.
In my comment I gave the US credit for its 'accomplishments' and Europe its 'accomplishments'. But was pointing out how still BOTH regions are blighted by bigotry and inequality. AND even if we do elect the 'minorities' and women into power, there status will be meaningless unless these leaders introduce the policies necessary to bring about more economically, socially, and politically just societies.
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zhanetta @ #75
Why was your comment directed at British Public Schools and followers?
The British, probably more than the Eastern Continental Europeans, would be the one European nation that would wish to seek to integrate Russia into Europe - if it could - and does recognise that the central peaks of the Urals is the eastern and the Caucasion mountians to the south of Russia are the border between Continental Europe and Eurasia.
That knowledge comes with the good education for the rich and well-to-do who can afford to send their children to private schools in the United Kingdom.
Or is it that you have been misinformed and have some kind of jaundiced or perverted view of the British Public School system?
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# 62. At 9:46pm on 13 Nov 2008, karolina001 wrote:
" ... Was it Sarkozy who suggested the formation of an elite of wise man to define Europe? What happen to that? ... "
The trouble with that is that somebody has to decide who belongs to this elite. My experience suggests that this person might well decide on the basis that anybody who doesn't agree with them is "stupid" or at least definitely not wise. So the decision would rest with the person choosing the elite. Based on past experience with the "EU" it might well turn out that the person choosing this elite might well realise that his or her personal friends were the truly wise. There is a good chance that his/her dentist would be amongst them. Possibly also a good few ex wives and/or ex- or current lovers. If the person choosing this elite was Sarkozy or French we might well find that the majority of these wise ones were French with the odd token Dane etc. Clearly they would need somewhere to meet. So now we have a new "EU"-palace - marble floors, gold doorknobs etc. All for the good of the common man of course. That goes without saying, so I don't know why I wrote that. These are important people. You need to provide a good salary to attract the right people otherwise they might prefer to continue to be dentists or wives or ladies of the night or whatever.
So now we need to decide who is to decide and we need to decide by which mechanism we decide.
I'm sorry! I'm from Suffolk and it's too complicated for me.
It could take a while to find the correct definition. I have read that Plato defined a man as a featherless biped. So a kangaroo is a man! That explains a lot!
At a German University in PE seminars we took weeks and weeks and weeks discussing the definition of a game. After many weeks of various people pointing out that there were problems with definitions given in the literature. the professor came up with his definition. It took me seconds to shoot it down in flames. To his credit he accepted that I was right.
How about another example of silly French/continental intellectualism? Yes, the Metric System.
Three housepoints for anybody who can tell me the original definition of a metre!
All right then, three housepoints and a merit card!
Pathetic!
Those who didn't know, right out the following one hundred times:
"The original definition of a metre was one ten-thousandth of the circumference of the earth."
Now what flip-of beans use is that to anybody when you don't know the circumference of the earth in YARDS or MILES or some useful measure?
Now to the speed of light. There are suggestions that the speed of light may well not be a universal constant as Einstein suggested. So on some website I read that the speed of light is a universal constant because it is DEFINED to be a universal constant.
I'm from Suffolk, it's past my bedtime and I give up!
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Agent00Soul
"I thought MAII hated Obama...."
You thought wrong. In fact I said many times that I like him. I just don't think he will make a good president. I hope I am wrong about that. I didn't think McCain would make a good president either. That is why I didn't vote for either of them, I did not give either my endorsement. IMO both were fatally flawed for different reasons. In Obama's case, it is lack of experience. Let's hope he's a very fast learner.
Jukka Rohilla
What Americans call ghettos have nothing in common with real ghettos like the Warsaw Ghetto in WWII. The term was co-opted by the American extreme left during the 1960s for political reasons. These ghettos are just poor neighborhoods whose residents are mostly of a racial or ethnic minority. It is possible to leave the ghetto and migrate to the suburbs or exurbs and live a better life. The key in the US is education. That's how the Jews did it. African Americans are starting to learn the same fact of American life. Those who are really smart demand better education for their children, more discipline to eliminate disruptive children in classrooms, and better enforcement of the laws especially in regards to drug abuse.
thredodio
Obama was elected because he got enough votes in enough states to get a majority of electoral college votes. Why individual voters voted for or against him is many and varied reasons. There was no one reason. For some it was his position on the issus, for some it was his race, for some they just liked and trusted him, and for some the mere fact that a change in party away from the Republicans was enough. Most times in the last 100 years, when a president leaves office, the next one is of the opposite party. There were only 3 exceptions in the 20th century.
Those expecting Obama to somehow be more "European" I think will be in for a surprise and a disappointment. In how the US should conduct itself in world affairs, he's much closer to the mainstream American position than the mainstream European position.
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thank you Krzysztof and threnodio.
a Russian can't leave a thread for a sec...
next min. you find yourself and Moscow flying over behind the Ural mountains!
there is indeed an old geography mark, a stone and a pole smth, in the Ural mountains, with two arrows: "Europe" - go left, "Asia"- go right.
normally only tourists care to go up there take pictures, standing (lying, jumping, falling, kissing and crawling / etc. depending on creativity levels/ in both at once.
Agent00Soul, @72 "I thought MAII hated Obama..."
I am sure he still, say, dis-likes him.
less, though, than before the election.
the new sunrise sending sun-rays and glow to the MAII face.
but MAII won't share his doubts with us, the "decidedly inferior civilisation. they are for internal consumption only. and have nothing to do with Obama's suntan.
Which reminds me. "Could there be a European Obama?"
what is Obama? I don't think he was elected for neither the suntan nor charm.
my modest opinion he was elected because he symbolised "change". managed to make the words Obama and change inter-replace-able ? inter- obama-ble!
in which case, I am about to say a word for the inferior civilisation...
we here already call Obama "American Gorbi"
with all the consequances expected as a result!
the charm and suIn one sense of the word - there already was.
Which reminds me "can Europe
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"So Russia is geografically 40% Europe and 60% Asia.
Culturally - of course European.
ANd , what a surprise - completely not antisemitic"
You must be joking. There is a lot of antisemitism in Russia. In fact the skinhead movement there is much much more powerfull then anything you can see in the rest of Europe, besides maybe countries like Serbia, but they channel it elswhere.
As to culture-Russian one is mainly influenced by the despotism and totalitarism it learned from Mongol Empire when it was part of it, the totalitarism bit was also influenced by cultural traits taken from Byzantium. All in all it is a culture much seperated from rest of Europe and Asia. After all both people on European and Asian continents suffered from Mongol brutally and raids, which formed the backbone of Russian identity. In fact even today you have parells-Mongols used extensive trade networks to gather intel about countries they wanted to conquer, and sent merchants as spies. Resemblance to Gazprom is pure coincidance.
"- compared to Poland - which
eradicated its last Jews after the WOrld War II in the last European pogroms"
Now that you made your love for Russia public I think know know where you come from. Public disinformation service of Russia I presume ? Or just doing your civil duty to Putin ? Anyhow Poland never eradicated "its last Jews". They were pogroms organised under Soviet occupation, but Jewish community remains in Poland. But I am certain you will continue to slander Poland, while claiming "Russia is beautifull Europe". Funny-I don't recall filtration camps for Chechens or journalists murdered on the street per regular basis. Also when was the last time any country in Europe besides Russia used tank armoured columns to invade other country ?
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"and now pretends being politically correct and european , after , i am sorry,#
serving the american plate."
You might have a point there. Poland definetly sides with USA on many issues and opposes European ideas-a clear example. Poland opposed both major political currents made in Europe-Nazism and Communism. Both fought and destroyed by USA. Thus perhaps you are right that Poland is more in USA cultural influence then European one.
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A few things...
Number one, for all those who point to the fact that african americans voted 90%+ for Obama - I would point out they do this for every Democrat. They are the most consistently Dem group in the country. Obama increased turnout and bumped the figure from 90 to 95 or so, but not that big of a change.
Number two - racism in the U.S. isn't dead. It ALSO isn't dead in Europe. I strongly agree with the posters who say Europeans need to look in the mirror a bit more when they talk about racism. They are very hung up on U.S. racism but refuse to see it in their own backyards. That's not to say we are perfect here, but at least we are willing to admit it and try to move forward.
Number three - For those who say we can't lump Europeans together - you're right, we shouldn't. And I would note that you shouldn't lump Americans all together either since our country is about the size of your continent, and individual states have vastly different laws, culture, climate, demography, etc... and are about the same size as many of your countries.
Finally, I do think Europe could have a European Obama, but only if they start looking in and not out. If you deny racism is there (and it IS there) you will never get passed it.
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Good night then, SuffolkBoy2, and we hope there is less than 1/8 of a mile, or, even better, less than 1/8 of furlong, no, say, 1/16 of it - btw your PC and your bed. You may wish to think about it instead of white sheep.
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Alice (#81),
If Obama is to Gorbachev, I wonder who the Americans will pick as Boris Yeltsin . . . ?
Arnold Schwarzenegger?
I can just imagine him atop a tank outside Congress, drink of carrot juice in one hand and shouting "I told you I would be back!"
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One other thing.
There appears to be a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe.
I would point out that Obama is the son of a foreigner - and we had no problem with that either. Some food for thought.
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Krzysztof @82, thanks a million.
I tried to explain in the earlier blogs that our state, as minimum, is Asian, if not so much the people. and that Moscow is a Byzantium empire capital. but nobody believed me. all strangely think that Byzantium empire is gone.
with gazprom comparison with Chinghiz khan - wow! never heard, but they might then adopt the tune. oh ho ho ho ho
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I'd think continent of Europe, meaning that ancient Earth platform boarded by teutonic underground plates, where the shifts on the edge occured, or how it is called scientifically, anyway distance Britain to Urals, is bigger than the country of USA. but this is just a geographic observation.
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No, Menedemus, seriously, all russia only talks about Gorby - 2, and what Americam perestroyka will look like. the dawn of a new day and all.
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Krzystof, only please don't get scared, but in the Russian point of view there was already one country here just recently, who couldn't decide in which continent they are. Began to feel more American than European....
:o)
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86 Mende
If Obama is to Gorbachev, I wonder who the Americans will pick as Boris Yeltsin . . . ?
In America we like to do things the opposite way of the Russians
Yeltsin was basically an incompetent drunk who miraculously got himself elected to a 2nd term, plunged the Russian economy into record decline, shifted power to a corporate elite, and prosecuted a failed war in Chechnya.
George W. was our Yeltsin (ok it never got as bad in the US as it did there)
Urgh tho following my logic of a backwards Russia model it means were up for Andropov and Chereneko equivs next - lets pray not
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I am still not sure how European Obama will be possible in Europe ?
if it is possible it might be possible in UK
But Just look at the countries like Austria, Greece, France, Germany...
GREECE has the worst human rights record in Europe ! and Racism is still a big big problem in Greece...
Then Austria, Germany, France where discriminations and racism against minorities and african origin people is still bad !
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Corinini @ #87
Just some food for thought for you.
What must it be like being a Mexican wanting a better life in the USA but on the South side of the border? I imagine it must be tougher than the having to wait for an amnesty every 10 years or so on the north side of the border - if they can get past the fences and the guards with the guns to get there?
I think you might have to agree that there is just a tad bit of anti-immigration feeling in the USA - just like most places where the grass grows greener and the street appear to be paved with gold in the eyes fo the less fortunate would-be immigrants.
"The pot calling the kettle black" is a saying that comes to mind with your throwaway comment. ;=)
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This is stunning. Is there a single European on here who will accept that racism is a major problem in Europe today? Unbelievable.
If not, the pity I have long felt for European minorities only grows that much stronger. I don't know how they're expected to manage when they are so marginalized that their voices are not even acknoledged.
Good luck to them. My best piece of advice to them s to emigrate back to their countries of origins (or North America). Let the Europeans shut off their own lights when the last childless European couple passes away.
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To hjuneja (64):
You said: "So for me I have a very simple and, I would argue, relatively objective test of whether or not certain nationalities are more racist than others: if they see me as American, by definition they are not racist (ie they are able to see past my race / skin color). If the keep asking me "where I am originally from" despite the fact that I am a second generation American, then by definition they are racist (i.e. they are not able to see past my skin color)."
I think your problem is that you don't fulfill your role as an stereotypical American. Stereotypical American is either white or black. You say you are brown. Might the questions concerning where you are originally from be interest to amend peoples picture of America. In example, white Americans originate from Europe, Black Americans originate from Africa, because history, people with different color have different cultural identities, thus with you the question comes 1) where are you from and 2) what cultural background does it give it to you. From my point of view that isn't racism, that is just genuine interest to find out more. Of course, you might disagree and might have different view based on the whole context.
To hjuneja (95):
Racism is a problem everywhere, in Europe its either problem or just minor problem. The real problem in Europe is integration of minorities into host cultures. The problem is underlined that in Europe as health care and education, including collage and university, are free, there are no real economic barriers on minorities to settle and adapt.
The problems are mostly cultural and the questions are...
1) How can you avoid build up of ghettos (with ghettos or mainly minority areas minorities don't have to assimilate)? In France the government has stepped up dismantle old tower blocks and make districts better. In Sweden the government is contemplating on paying more social security to families who choose to move into a district where minorities are not majority.
2) How can you get minorities to accept the normal routes to advance in society? How can you make the families to stress the importance of education to their children?
The problem is that in countries where minorities have formed by largely blue collar guest workers, the problem is how to get people to appreciate education, white collar jobs and essentially believe that they can attain these by education and work.
In countries where minorities have been formed by taking in refugees is that many of them have come from war zones and places where society has failed. In example Somalis came to Finland in the beginning of 90s. Only now approx 14 - 16 years later there is a generation of children who have born in here and have penetrated and been taken care by the Finnish social, health care and education systems thus they start to get more and more in collages and universities. The problem that many Americans don't seem to understand that culture and education accumulate and if a child or teen has missed even few years in some other system then that difference is very hard to reach.
The problem in Europe is largely socio-economic-cultural and less about racism. This I think is major difference between European and American thinking.
PS. Your comment is full of hate against Europeans. Maybe you have racist feelings too?
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How can we have an 'Obama' President in Europe if we haven't even a President?
PS
Our (Italian) Prime Minister is much more suntanned than Obama and his racist joke was a clear proof of his identification with the main character of an 80s US movie titled "Soul Man", unfortunatly without any happy-end redemption... and unfortunatly for us his heavy make-up seems also to hamper his ability to clearly understand who are our allies, and who are not...
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hjuneja
Look on the bright side. Europe is what America competes against. Look at how many talented capable people who could have made them much stronger adversaries than they are they throw away. India does the same with untouchables, women, and others. China would still be a basket case if it hadn't allowed massive foreign investment but for reasons of language, culture, geography it is still in some ways closed to the outside world. Japan is a very racist and sexist country where women are treated as lesser human beings and the limited number of immigrants rarely rise to the top of companies no matter what human assets they have. Only now with rare examples like the appointment of an American to the head of Sony Corporation are foreigners making inroads. China, Japan, and much of Europe have aging populations and do not assimilate immigrants well. They and their descendants remain outsiders even if technically they become citizens. It is not that the US opposes immigration, in fact it welcomes it in a process of perpetual self renewal. What it opposes is uncontrolled illegal immigration because it cannot absorb an unlimited number of people continuously at a rapid rate who will often require tax subsidization most of their lives to survive. But it does manage to cope and does not treat them as felons to be put in prison and then deported the way the EU now does. America recognizes the complexity of the issue both for the US economy and culture and the relations and stability of foreign countries which depend on the "remittances" these people send back home to feed their families and support their economies.
Watch and you will see these other countries crash and burn in the economic tsunami that has just begun to take its toll on the world. And to think that this was an American invention we exported to the rest of the world. Had the US planned an economic war to reassert its dominance, it could hardly have done better. Yes the US owes the outside world a lot of money. But when the inevitable inflation hits as the result of massive deficit financing, these debts will be paid back with much cheaper dollars. And for anyone who does have money, right now and in the near future will be the best possible time to spend some of it buying a house in the US. Opportunities like the fire sale that's coming only knocks once in a lifetime. This is your big chance to buy something of real value for very little in terms of tomorrows dollars.
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hjuneja @ 95
I have every sympathy with Jukka_Rohila's last sentence in Comment #96.
you seem intent on promulgating reverse racism with your comment about childless white couples?
As an American in Europe who seems to feel that Europe is so racist that immigrants should leave and go home, may I enquire when we can expect your departure. I am not sure I will be there to see you off as I have got a life but your absence will not be missed that's for sure.
If you haven't anything good to say about Europeans, one has to wonder why you are still here?
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It is interesting to note that in several European countries there are MPs who are part of national minorities. This is not sufficient, but is a step forward. Whether these politicians will be able to become Heads of Government is of course debatable. I think nonetheless that it is among those people that the potential European Obama should be sought.
As regards rankings of racist countries, I think some participants shoud first look into their own jurisdictions (ie Poland) before saying that Switzerland is the most racist country in Europe. I am referring to certain comments that a PIS member made this week about Mr. Obama....
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Jukka_Rohila:
I agree with some of your points about Europe having a socio-cultural-economic problem in addition to a racism problem.
The refugees, asylum seekers, guest workers, etc you refer to are a far larger component of European immigrant stock than America. And the reason for that is quite simple: the best and brightest in developing countries grow up dreaming about emigrating to the United States one day, not Europe. Europe usually gets the unskilled and less educated segments of those societies - ones who are looking for benefits and handouts, not just the opportunity to achieve their potential in a open and fair society like America.
Now, let's examine the fundamental reason for this: a smart kid growing up in India or China knows that if he goes to America, he'll be able to rise to the top of American corporations and society solely based on his hard work and intelligence -- without facing the entrenched elitist and racist attitudes that predominate in Europe. Whereas ignorant Europeans keep mindlessly spouting on and on about American racism, that ambitious kid in Korea or Colombia sees a Barack Obama, or a Colin Powell, or a Condi Rice, or Bobby Jindal in government and the countless, countless American CEOs with immigrant backgrounds...and thinks: "now, there is a great country where anything is possible and the only limitation on me is my own ability." Frankly, no one looks at Europe and thinks the same thing.
I have many friends who are French Jews, Dutch Iranians, British Indians and Spanish Moroccans - those who have spent enough time with me or other American minorities or in America itself, are starting to realize what a massive gulf exists between America and its treatment of immigrant stock vs Europe. They are also shocked by the fact that American minorities are so patriotic and fiercely loyal to their country. Finding the same attitudes in Europe is nearly impossible - Europeans who are intellectually honest must ask themselves why.
As European minorities start to realize what's been happening on the other side of the Atlantic -- not just in the 2008 election cycle but for decades -- they'll start to demand that Europeans start treating them with similar respect and equality. Europeans in return will whine about their lack of integration and patriotism...but Europeans need to earn it and only then will it come naturally to your minorities...just as America has fully earned it from its minorities.
Until then, Europeans should shut up about "racism" in America and get to work in their own backyward. Maybe after you've caught up in all these respects, you can start giving us some advice. But America started in the 1960s...if you start now, we can have this conversation again in the middle of the 21st century.
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#96, Jukka_Rohila, #99, Menedemus,
I could not agree more, I saw plenty of people like hjuneja in the black areas of South London who are themselves very racist and simply looking for racism everywhere and perpetually misreading everything they encounter as racism. When it was not inter black tribal racism it was black on Asian and black on white, and yes there are racist whites but no more than in hjuneja's own culture. I simply think that racism hunters are like people who go out looking for a fight, they provoke a fight and get it.
So hjuneja, all I can say is to repeat what Menedemus said about your presence not being missed and suggest you take your chip on the shoulder (USA expression I believe meaning where people wanting a physical fight would carry a chip of wood on their shoulder, daring others to knock it off) and vacate Europe as quick as possible.
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you forget one thing THE EU will never be a country so a true obama is out of the question maybe one day in the uk but not the EU
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I for one was happy that Obama became POTUS-elect, the feeling of optimism he brought to the campaign was spell-binding.
But for the NYT to suggest that europeans haven't or wont follow in electing a coloured person to high office is simply untrue.
They seem to have forgotten their history, the first leader (using the Berlosconi measure of skin tone..) arrived in the middle-east and quickly expanded his brand of optimism and socialism to an eager global audience.
His name was Jesus Christ
I think you might of heard of him....
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Look, I'm not going to get into a personal mudslinging contest with you guys - I just think that Europe needs a long overdue debate about its minority issues if it wants to catch up with America. And if my European minority cousins lack the confidence and the voice to do so, my conscience compels me to lend my support. I recognize that as an American, having the confidence to speak up for myself, my community and my country and demand equality comes a lot more naturally than for most European minorities.
Calling me a racist or a reverse racist is very similar to the reactions people had to Trevor Philips last week. I think its sad that voices for debate in Europe are quieted so quickly with attacks like that. Imagine if white Americans had similar attitudes to Martin Luther King and the great civil rights activists of the 60s who so wonderfully transformed American society in the latter half of the 20th Century.
Anyway, this is my last comment. This conversation is well ahead of European attitudes and social mores, and thus for me to bang on about it is fruitless and unduly pigheaded. Perhaps in the future, as an Obama presidency takes from, European social dynamics will mature to a point where such an open and honest intellectually-driven discourse is possible.
Until then, I have revised my attitudes towards America's vigorous debate on race issues. I used to feel it exaggerated and unhelpful. Witnessing European intransigence on this issue, however, has led me to reverse my longheld position on American race issues. We in the United States should never shy from erring on the side of overdoing it - the alternative, social stagnation and denial, would risk all the progress we have made for our country and the world over the last 50 years.
Good night, folks - I'm signing out.
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To hjuneja (101):
You do know that collage or university education in US cost big dollars? Tuitions themselves are immense and when you add to these living costs then what you get are just staggering costs.
Smart kid from India or Korea may do better in US than in Europe, but doing it in US requires capital. In Europe as I said before, health care and education are free, thus its for kid coming from a poor family has better chances doing it in Europe than in US. I you don't believe me then please look at this report...
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
To quote: "By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents? income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults. Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States."
You raise Obama, Powell and Rise as examples, but what you forget are large masses of every color that in US don't have any opportunity. Oppression of people by and throe their income level may not be directly racism, but indirectly it can be said to be so as poverty stricken people are usually immigrants or have had discrimination in past.
In last... your comment about "Europe usually gets the unskilled and less educated segments of those societies - ones who are looking for benefits and handouts, not just the opportunity to achieve their potential in a open and fair society like America."
Let me tell you something, you are looking down for your fellow men. Let me tell you something else, those unskilled and less educated do also work hard and try to earn their place in the society, and this I know from experience by witnessing it. Few generation and children of these people have assimilated completely into our societies.
I'm sorry, but I just get the feeling that you look down, same as MAII, to people with lower incomes. That's no better than looking at the color of skin.
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89. WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
I'd think continent of Europe, meaning that ancient Earth platform boarded by teutonic underground plates, where the shifts on the edge occured, or how it is called scientifically, anyway distance Britain to Urals, is bigger than the country of USA.
Tectonically speaking Europe doesn't exist, interesting fact: someone in London is standing on the same tectonic plate as someone in Singapore or Osaka or East Timor or Seoul or Beijing etc. the continent Europe only exist in modern times due to historical and cultural reasons. Hence the border problems.
34. daquanqm wrote:I say yes. Pim Fortuyn would've most likely been elected Prime Minister had he not been assassinated, and he was openly gay. I don't see that happening in America any time soon.
I agree that we're not going to see an openly gay US President any time soon. I disagree that Pim Fortuyn would have been prime-minister if he wasn't shot at least not in the 2002 election. I believe his party managed to get so many votes because he was assassinated.
While the polls may indicate that the Dutch are happy with Mr Aboutaleb being a mayor, I'd also like to point out that being a prime-minister is a more important role and has more responsibility. And I honestly think when it comes down the Dutch wouldn't vote for him because he's of Moroccan decent and not because of his views.
Of course this is a 'what if' scenario and we won't know who's right until such a scenario actually plays out. So I think it's best we agree to disagree.
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The NYT article has some significant positive meanings. I'm glad someone has connected in words the recent election for American president with the situation in Europe. There are certain connections for sure. The result of this election could put spure to a constructive discourse about the European future.
As far as Europe is concerned it is simply a question of democracy. Obviously, the EU needs urgently the constitution.
Not an another treaty, but a constitution. I could understand the concerns of the Chech's president do overtly demonstrated during his visiting Ireland. They don't wont more palliative solutions, which would satisfy maybe some napoleonic or similar antidemocratic ambitions in Europe.
Can we imagine a situation the EU finally got the constitution, that the best of the candidates for EU president has been selected accordingly to his or her virtues, education, etc., and that he or she is of Chech, Greek or similar allegedly minor nationalities in Europe. How many British, French or German citizens would vote in his or her favour?
That is, in my opinion, what is the real question in Europe. It is not the possibility of having a president of African origin, but one British, French, etc. Would a British vote for one Frenchman, and vice versa? This is essentially the reason the EU is still not fully constituted, namely in the sense of democracy.
Therefore, who is trying to fool us with the statistics? It is high time for those nephews in the EU administration to react quickly, before everybody loose their jobs. Otherwise, let's go back everybody to their own drawers of prejudices, historical states and limits, and let allow again all our economic power going to the wind.
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Ticape @107 this is interesting, I need to do some read, on those tectonic platforms and whatever. I thought it is because of them, that's the platforms met at some point and formed the vertical mountain ridge, Urals, from North to South there in the middle.
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#101.
The irony of your comment of course, lies in the fact that studies have shown that social mobility in the USA is actually lower than it is in most European countries (certainly the W-European countries).
Patriotism, by the way, is not a laudable trait. If there is any problem with patriotism, it's certain segments of the immigrant population retaining their loyality and patriotism towards their homelands to an unhealthy degree.
(In this case, I'm thinking, for example: Grey Wolves. If Turkey is so great and you loath Kurds so much, go back to Turkey instead of grouping into little fascist cells over here and making life harder for Kurds over here, or Armenians for that matter.)
I happen to live in Brussels, which, as you probably do not know, is comprised for 56% of 'immigrants' or people with immigrant roots that go back to a maximum of 2 generations. I notice very little of the supposed 'ignorance of racism' that Europeans have. In fact, we have had years, and years of lively debates on the issue, dating as far back as 'black sunday' in the early 90s. None of my friends with foreign roots feel the way the 'American black' on this blog feels. In fact, they would be most upset with his attitude.
Of course, the biggest issue with the debate here is that we are debating a false issue. Europe does not need a 'minority head of state' to prove that it's as far along as the USA. The situations are different to such a degree that comparison is really not a factor. I'm still waiting for the USA to get anything resembling proportional representation for their 'latino' population that isn't comprised soley of 'white' latinos.
The problem is not racism, it is ... excuse the 'Marxist language' ... a class problem. Take a look at any of your elected officials on a national level and take in account their background. How many of them 'really' come from anything even resembling 'lower class'?
Obama is not, in any way, a representation of the 'average' black in the US. He was Harvard educated, come on! The reason that immigrants in Europe are not 'more' represented, and I deliberatly use 'more' because people claiming that they are not represented at all are just lying, is the fact that they are sorely underrepresented in any sort of higher education.
Funnily enough, and there are statistics about this, lower 'class' background youths, are as a whole sorely underrepresented in that enviroment. Thanks to Bologna, that's not going to improve any time soon either.
You're not going to be able to improve any of this to a real degree until this is fixed, period. That goes for the USA as well, the only thing Obama proves is that 'racism' isn't as much an issue anymore -Which I applaud! I'm very pleased with this fact, it represents a cultural shift, even if I don't support Obama politically more than I would Verhofstadt-, as long as you are still part of the same political class that brings forth just about every other politician.
You want more 'colour' in politics? Then improve the education standards and the access people have to it. That said, it's very obvious a lot of people here have no clue as to what they are talking about. For example, the Dutch PM is not chosen through direct elections, ergo he can't be 'chosen' by the Dutch public.
I read an interesting Washington Post article by the way, which had a great explanation for why there are so many blacks in congress in the US compared to say, France. Of course, like any good patriotic paper they hid it away in the last paragraph, but it's there nontheless.
The majority -and I stress this!- of the black elected congress members come from ... a black majority voting district. Europe has hardly any of these, at all. If you want more black MP's and want to do it US style, it's very easy. Just gerrymander the electoral districts so that they correspond with ethnic lines.
Seggregation is the way to integration! (I'm being sarcastic here, by the way, this is not at all what I believe).
P.S. 105: Did you forget how the civil movement in the 60s played out? MLK died. Don't forget that.
Don't tell me that America has solved it's problems all either, because I for one, do read your papers and I am aware of serious race rioting that happened as close as 2003.
Nobody is perfect, remember that.
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I think America is neither so good nor so bad as is sometimes (always) viewed or depicted (say, here, in Russia).
Re their future expectations, as Mavrelius wrote "anyone who tries to sell? count? America short" etc. "can expect surprises" - yes, it should prove to be better, has high potential. I think the best way it was described here in our Echo of Moscow radio station (sorry unavailable to anyone in English), and in fact it was our most famous prisoner Khodorkovsky, the oligarch behind the bars, thinking and writing his yet another "address to the nation" (he stubbornly competes in that with Kremlin. to annoy them even better, no doubt):
"In the past 8 years the USA were sliding down to the Empire status. What a degradation - to be America! and to become an empire. But the quality of the system is checked not by its ability to make mistakes, but by the ability to recognise them and correct the course of action. By electing Obama we all hope America will remember what they are to stand for originally etc. etc. "
This is about America being "good".
As to being "bad" I have my own observations. USA is viewed in the world (beyond the "golden billion" world, of course, the other 4 bln of us on this planet) as an expanding disaster that tries to dictate others what to do. To the degree that even the police baton in Russia is popularly called "democratizator". Like, "the police troops dispersing the crowds yest. were armed with shields, democratizators" etc.
so, "expanding disaster". but look at them, practically, where they are. they take only a modest chunk of the North America.
this is my personal discovery :o) that I am glad to share with wide audiences. I was not much interested in geography at school, anyway the iron curtain, what's the point, same good as to study where Mars craters ot whatever exactly are. Then all this Perestroyka, news, talk, USA everywhere here, the threat from USA bla bla bla. So I had a look at the mp and didn't belive my eyes.
I was dead sure USA means both North America and South one. OK, as min, the North one. (here we call it South, not "Latin").
And?! All this fuss because of the modest country that only sits in the middle across in the Northern chunk?! :o)
They are there 200 years years! as minimum.
And didn't care to expand even to normal geographic borders!
Canada is on its own, Mexico they don't even care to invade, diligently building the new great Chinese wall instead.
Now, that's very un-Russian! sissy boys.
the map shows it is easy to WALK, for crying out loud, there down to the bottom to the tip of the Southern one. Nothng stands in the way! and they didn't even attempt to! for expansion they have zero guts, in my modest Russian view. all these fears ab them are over-inflated.
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To ParadisArtificiels (110):
How does Bologna Process impact underrepresentation of lower class youths in higher education?
From my view Bologna Process increases the desirability and value of an degree and enables people from different countries to enter more easily collages and universities outside their home countries.
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Bologna is going to increase the cost of higher education to a significant degree, at least here, and it's also going to cut into the availability of the different studies. For example, at my university, at least half the master degrees are waiting to be cut, which will mean they will need to make significant expenses in transportation or boarding. For people who are already struggling with their daily income that's just not going to be very helpfull convincing them to send their kids to university.
Sending kids to study abroad is just not something that's within reach for people with limited financial means. I applaud that part of the Bologna process, but it needs to be balanced against other parts of the process. Education is, after all, a right, not a privilege. The last thing I would want to see happen is the creation of two tiers of education (which is already happening in countries like England), one for the well to do and another for the struggling.
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To ParadisArtificiels (113):
I think that in case of education costs the fault lies in local governments and in your example in British government.
In Finland, again, education doesn't cost anything, even to people outside the EU the education is free if they just can get into a collage or university. For citizens the state provides financial aid that covers living expenses and housing, at least if one lives modestly. And of course as only the state has the right to grant degrees of higher education there are no private collages or universities.
In here the state has no intention to cut funding or decrease the amount of people studying. Actually the problem is that due to lower birthrates of each generation, we are starting to have trouble to fill in collages and universities with quality students. Recently department of education has lined in 2006 that in 2015 we should have 15000 foreign students studying in here and recently those figures have been upped to 30000. The line of thinking seems to be that by having foreign students the education works both as development aid, works to increase commercial and industrial relations and hopefully provides workers to Finnish industries.
So in essence, this is a national question, Bologna is just an poor excuse that many use.
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#113, ParadisArtificiels,
Please elucidate where you see the two tier education system in England, are you talking about the student loans that strangle young ex-students as that is the fault of the believe it or not Socialist government. It is also though the fault of the situation where many degrees are for subjects that are virtually valueless in the real world and a waste of the limited resources that are available. If the Bologna process requires a rationalisation of degree course then that may be a good thing if if causes the removal of some degree 'subjects'.
BTW, You mentioned "Education is, after all, a right, not a privilege" but don't forget for every right you also have a responsibility and it is a shame that many waste years on futile degree courses that can never benefit society, and in the English case rack up large debts that cannot be repaid.
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Ticape @107
I looked it up, someone in London does not stand on the same tectonic plate as someone in Singapore. not even on the same plate as Poland and Latvia. alas?
we all seem to sit on our separate chunks, old continents, that drifted around in the planet, like separate ships/islands, moreover they rotated clockwise and opposite, swirled in most ungracious manner, accidentally collided, bumped into each other and got together.
then some divorced again and drifted away.
hilarious movement, you don't know who is who, when you look at the drawings in wiki.
where the bumps occured and separate continents met there are mountain ranges.
what they call there "cratons" - a craton being not even a "continent" in its modern sense, but a stable separate thing that a./ was stable for as min 500 mln yrs - to 2 bln years b./ its roots stretch down to the earth depth fo as min 200 km deep.
Siberia is one such a craton, was a separate continent, water around.
until it bumped into "Kazakhstania" craton/continent and "Baltica" craton/continent.
Ural mountains is the unstable crampled paper point in the place of these 3 meeting, with no "roots" going deep down. 350 mln yrs ago.
Likewise "the mini-continent India collided with the mini-continent Asia creating Himalaya". but that was fresh, 35 mln yrs ago only, so Himalaya mountain are are much higher than Urals, had no time to be eroded away.
But Urals are a much older meeting point.
For Europe wiki has news as well, no "European plate", it was a separate "microcontinent of Avalonia" 542 mln yrs ago colliding with the craton/continent of Baltica.
The "micro" ones - Avalonia - attention - this is interesting - is old Europe (France, Belgium and England) AND US East Coast (N. Carolina and New England), AND Atlantic Canada.
No wonder you consider them relatives, very good memory, just 542 mln yrs ago you were one thing. And now I understand finally why "old Europe", 542 mln yrs is older than our Urals at 350 mln yrs ago.
So then US and Canadian micro things were chipped off, the left-over of Avalonia merged with Baltica, Baltica merged with Siberia, Siberia merged with Kazakhstania and the world is well began.
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i wish that europe could have [our own] barack obama!
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To Menedemus
Dear Menedemus ,
My compliments.
Your posts are of such a high quality, that I accept it both as an honour and pleasure, to get an opportunity to answer them.
For you to know ? there are 3 countries ? which I love ? the fourth is passion ? so i am not gonna mention it . My Love countries are Germany , Russia and Britain.
Britain for me includes also Ireland (I am cosmopolitan ? so ..) I can imagine myself strolling down the green Tara Hills on my own or with a dog ? i can only dream . But ....best choice for retirement.
My words about British public schools were only used to underline the inadequate level of our bloggers who dare to write about what they do not know.
I have a lot of british friends ? for them -british public schools ? are national tragedy.
SO accept it as a metaphor.
To MarcusAureliusII wrote:
In Obama's case, it is lack of experience. Let's hope he's a very fast learner.
Agree. He joined the Senate only in 2004 ?
so really ? one should not expect much from him
thredodio
#Those expecting Obama to somehow be more "European" I think will be in for a surprise and a disappointment. In how the US should conduct itself in world affairs, he's much closer to the mainstream American position than the mainstream European position.#
Absolutely right . Obama is an American president who is going to fight for the American interest, using and misusing what he can. Only strange Poles think that Americans care about them ? they somehow do not get that in fact they are transforming their country into the first front line .
Ha HA..... let them do it.
To KrzysztofPoland wrote:
Russia is not anti-Semitic ? that was confirmed by the world jewish congress ? which mentioned that Poland is anti-Semitic.
The fact is ? Jews who emigrated ? started to return to Russia - -
But interestingly ? they do not return to Poland ? Everybody understands why....
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"Russia is not anti-Semitic ? that was confirmed by the world jewish congress "
ADL is of other opinion:
http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/russia_politics.asp
In recent years anti-Semitism has become an obvious weapon in the political life of Russia.
The fact is that anti-Semitism remains an underlying theme in many major political and public debates in Russia.
Potentially greater threats are those instances when the political mainstream echoes anti-Semitic ideas, using for example such stereotypes as an alleged lack of Jewish loyalty to Russia.
Anti-Semitism is so ingrained in public discourse that many Russians are not even able to recognize anti-Jewish bias
One example is the standoff between President Putin and the oligarchs. While the public largely welcomes Putin?s battle against the business moguls, some sectors of the population make no clear distinction between the class of rich and influential tycoons and the Jewish people in general. Broad public approval of the government?s actions against the oligarchs, who many see as exploiting the Russian people, coincides with an undercurrent of resentment against Jews in powerful positions that has become widespread in Russia since the collapse of Communism in 1991.
Major purveyors of anti-Semitic rhetoric among Russian political parties are the Communist Party of the Russian Federation (KPRF), Russia?s largest and best organized political organization, and the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR) led by the flamboyant ultranationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky. The leadership of both parties have repeatedly alluded to conspiracy theories that can be traced back to both the Tsarist and Soviet times.
Current Russian anti-Semitism uses the language and ideology of Soviet anti-Jewish campaigns. Potentially greater threats are those instances when the political mainstream echoes anti-Semitic ideas, using for example such stereotypes as an alleged lack of Jewish loyalty to Russia. One such example was an attack on liberal candidate Grigoriy Yavlinsky, who is partly Jewish, on a state-controlled television channel in March 2000.
While none of the parties seeking election in the late 1999 and 2000 included overt anti-Semitic slogans in their electoral campaigns on the federal level, ultra-nationalism and xenophobia figured prominently in the pre-election propaganda of a number of blocs. The KPRF and LDPR, resorted to xenophobia and thinly veiled anti-Jewish rhetoric in the 1999-2000 campaigns.
On the local level, the most notorious case of political anti-Semitism was that of Alexander Mikhailov, the governor-elect of the central Russian region of Kursk. In his first interview with a major national newspaper after being installed in the office in November, Mikhailov, a senior member of the Communist Party, lashed out against an alleged anti-Russian conspiracy that included a Russian Jewish umbrella group and his predecessor who was half-Jewish.
Nikolay Kondratenko, the former governor of the southern Krasnodar region, who has used anti-Semitism heavily in his public rantings over the last several years, did not seek re-election late last year. He still remains a cause for concern for human rights watchers and the Jewish community since he was appointed to represent his home region in Russian parliament?s upper house.
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http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/anti-semitism_global_incidents_2008.asp
Russia
October 26, 2008 ? Saratov -- Swastikas and anti-Semitic graffiti were found on the walls and door of the local Jewish Agency. The vandals also targeted a neighboring building housing a Jewish charitable organization.
August 16, 2008 ? Nizhny Novgorod ? Vandals broke the windows of the synagogue and destroyed a security kiosk that was supposed to be attended to protect the synagogue. Vandals have previously attacked the synagogue several times.
July 21, 2008 - Bogorodsk ? Vandals painted swastikas and Stars of David on gravestones at a Jewish cemetery in the Nizhny Novgorod region. The unknown perpetrators destroyed five gravestones and knocked over an additional 10.
July 15/16, 2008 - Ivanovo - A swastika was painted in the apartment building of the leader of the local Jewish community. Swastikas and symbols of the far-right Russian National Unity group have appeared together on buildings around the city in the past few weeks.
June 1-2, 2008 ? Dzherzhinsk ? A synagogue in the Nizhny Novgorod region of Russia was defaced with anti-Semitic graffiti. The perpetrator also threw a Molotov cocktail at a window of the building. The bottle did not break the window, however, and started a small fire outside of the structure.
May 29, 2008 - Nizhny Novgorod?Vandals desecrated 13 gravestones in the Jewish cemetery in the city?s Leninsky district. An 18 year old was convicted of this crime and given a 2 ?-year suspended sentence.
May 19, 2008 ? Salavat ? A group of young men were arrested after attempting to break in to a Jewish community center in Salavat in the Russian Republic of Bashkortostan during a religious service. The men, who allegedly had been drinking prior to the incident, banged on the center?s doors with metal pipes after asking bystanders if they were Jewish.
May 11, 2008 ? Tula ? Two laborers were attacked in the courtyard of the town?s Jewish community center by three men, including one armed with a shovel. Police arrested the perpetrators, who were identified as neo-Nazis. Days before the attack, the community center had been defaced with swastikas and other anti-Semitic graffiti.
April 5, 2008 ? Vladivostok ? A swastika and other anti-Semitic graffiti was painted on a local synagogue.
January 29, 2008 ? Ulyanovsk ? A local Jewish community center was the site of an anti-Semitic protest allegedly organized by the Russian All-Nation Union. A group of about 10 young people demonstrated outside the center, shouting anti-Semitic slogans and painting swastikas on a wall. Some of the demonstrators forced their way into the building. Police arrested four demonstrators, who were convicted and ordered to serve prison time and community service work.
January 23, 2008 - Nizhny Novgorod?Three men vandalized a local synagogue, tearing the table cloths and throwing religious books out of a window. Local police have arrested the perpetrators.
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Firstly we need to decide "what is a European Obama?"
There seem to be several different Interpretations running through this thread.
1.) A Black man/woman
2.) A person from any ethnic minority
3.) Someone who represents (or wants to be seen as representing) CHANGE from the political norm.
1) Speaking from my experiance in Britain, I am unaware of a Black candidate who wants the job (whilst i'm sure there are many who could do a much better job than the P.M we have Presently) There does not seem to be anyone in a position to break though the elitist party leadership that we have.
2.) See above
3.) I think someone who represented a possitive change would be well recieved in Britain. However the irst past the post system and the nature of the dominant political party's prevent this from happening.
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Poland is and always has been an artifical buffer zone between Germany and Russia (and all of there previous incarnations) Nothing more nothing less.
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You can legislate against discrimination but you cannot legislate against prejudice. Only when a significant proportion of the electorate have grown up understanding that there is more to someone than the colour of their skin will you have a European Obama.
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So you found 12 instances of anti-semitic behavour over a 10 month period in a country the same size as the E.U.
There will always be a few small minded Bigots.
Im sure if i looked i'd find as many instances in E.U countries over the same time period.
Whilst that does't make it right, it puts it in perspective. 12 Idiots and you condem a whole nation!
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122. At 5:23pm on 14 Nov 2008, WhiteEnglishProud wrote:
#Poland is and always has been an artifical buffer zone between Germany and Russia (and all of there previous incarnations) Nothing more nothing less.
#
You perfectly articulated what is difficult not to agree.
The Problem with Poland - they always wanted to be or better to say pretended to be greater than they are.
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FYI i have requested for 122 to be withdrawn
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Regarding mentioned NYT article, let's elaborate furhermore the basic facts of Europe. There is one sentence of Hegel, the great German philosopher, which says something like "others are lucky they live in the vicinity", - around the prominent individuals, in the same state together with them, in the state which the great individuals also had constituted.
How far this can go, that this centre of greatness could also be crudely neglected, by the same "others" which have been rewarded with the fortune, we know from not so distant history of Europe.
Americans were lucky they had Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and other great individuals as the authors of their constitution. Their constitution is for sure the main reason they have been able, during time, to overcome hard race-hatred and similar imperfecions. Many great individuals of Europe, on the contrary, were simply expelled, also in the name of those "others" fortunated.
We can only hope some of them still remains in Europe, to write a proper constitution.
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WEP @ #124
It took a Polish bigot to go look for the instances of bigotry in Russia.
I can well imagine that anyone, if they realy, really wanted to do so (although most of probably have far more important things to do with our lives than waste them like that!) could go look up instances of Polish bigotry on the WWW but most people have got a life thank goodness! ;=)
Fortunately for me, I have met some really decent people in my life and some of them have been Polish. I refuse to let one sour and bitter unrepresentaive Polish person make me think any less of the Polish as a Nation.
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To SuffolkBoy2
And karolina001
Was it Sarkozy who suggested the formation of an elite of wise man to define Europe? What happen to that? ... "
I think that there is a need for Elite. Elite should take responsibility for managing the country.
Otherwise we land by the dictatorship of plebs ? which could be o.k. in a good times but devastates Nations in bad times .
Remember the destiny of Socrates.
Elite for me ? those who have excellent education.
But ? there should be a guarantee for the children to have access to good education and medicine and
Sports..
Independent of the income of their parents.
Sports and medicine for ALL, education with quotas for everybody
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To SuffolkBoy2
And karolina001
" ... Was it Sarkozy who suggested the formation of an elite of wise man to define Europe? What happen to that? ... "
I think that there is a need for Elite. Elite should take responsibility for managing the country.
Otherwise we land by the dictatorship of plebs ? which could be o.k. in a good times but devastates nations in bad times.
Remember the destiny of Socrates.
Elite for me ? those who have excellent education.
But ? there should be a guarantee for the children to have access to good education and medicine and
Sports..
Independent of the income of their parents.
Sports and medicine for ALL, education with quotas for everybody
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"The Problem with Poland - they always wanted to be or better to say pretended to be greater than they are. "
Especially when we took Moscow and your tsars bowed to our king right ? Or when Prussians held a tribute to Poland ? :)
But I know the reason of your anger-despite all Russian claims, you always fail because of us. We destroyed your dreams about empire when you tried Pan-Slavism, we helped Japanese in 1905, we staged uprisings every time you attempted to become European superpower weakening you in the process, we stoped you in 1920, we told truth about Katyn, we rose up in 1956, 1981. We fought your pitfull slave empire-the Soviet Union and won in 1989 with help of our American friends.
And we were there to help Georgians when again your rag-tag robber army itched to rob Tibilisi.
And we will always oppose your Russian Empire and slavery, poverty, despair your state brings.
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"We can only hope some of them still remains in Europe, to write a proper constitution."
Only states need constitution. Europe is a continent not a state. It has a need for none.
I would say it needs more US troops then consitution.
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Menedemus
I too have met some really decent Polish people, unfortunately i have met some proper scallywags as well.
so for me its been about 50:50
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What a valiant Pole wants to defend Poland with U.S troops.
I can hear MAII's thoughts as he reads that.
I never understood why the Eastern Bloc countries were allowed in the E.U so we could pay to fix them up and allow them to move West.
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#134 - WhiteEnglishProud
Eastern bloc countries were allowed in to lock them into NATO and to maximise the potential of growth economies. You may recall the the UK was one of the strongest advocates of enlargement because some saw it as an opportunity to break the Franco-German stranglehold on the EU and it has, to some extent, worked. You ought to be pleased.
It is also a very pleasant place to live. It's not all rusty Trabants and broken up statues of Lenin you know!
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We have a much bigger problem than racism in Europe. We have an increasing number of adherents to a very malign ideology who completely refuse to integrate and whose ideology is almost completely opposed to western freedoms and liberties.
They refer to themselves as 'religion of peace' but quite obviously (both in history and in modern day reality) are nothing of the kind.
Another big problem is politicians who kowtow and make concessions to said malign ideology.
@zhanetta (130)
there is absolutely no need whatsoever for an unelected elite of selfproclaimed 'progressives' who all know whats 'best' for the people. Unfortunately, we already have a politburo of unelected unaccountable dictator-wannabees trying to grab more powers for themselves all the time.
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Positives of Obama's election are to many to mention,starting from the black community's realisation that from now on they can be full participants in the American democracy without hard feelings anymore,to the uplifting mood that the world found itself in after realising that the man actually did WIN, and the hope that this big win brought all over the world for change,for a better future.
The European media sensing the Obama win,was shouting all around the love of Europe for Obama .
(where this kind of general opinion that Europe somehow loves Obama came from only the media knows and it does not seem to like to inform us about it aswell)
The same Europe that is passing laws for Ilegal immigrants to be prosecuted and imprisoned.
The same Europe where racism is depply rooted in its institutions.
Obama is an American story and can only happen in America.Europe is very far away from that,so lets not be kidding ourselves.
Berlusconi,which by the way is the primeminister of a Government that has brought back the SEGREGATION,after passing a law were Italian children not be tought in the same class as immigrant children,thinks is a joke to call Obama TANED,and does not understand that a joke based on somebody's race is a racist joke.When the primeminister of a European country thinks this is ok for him to say ,then I can only think what is ok for a normal person on the street to say and not be considered racist.
Many people on the media have declared their support for Obama for various reasons,some of them were suporting Obama because they hated consumerism,some of them because they hated Capitalism,some of them simply because they hated BUSH,even though they dont understand the reasons why,some of them because they hate America,even Iranian madman Ahmadinejad send his congrats to Obama.
WELL i can say with confidence that a big number of this lpeople are going to be disapoited by Obama,because Obama does not rapresent anti-consumerism,anti-capitalism,Bush-Hatism (which for some reasons seems to be cool nowday's),or Anti-Americanism.
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To threnodio (135):
Just to add for perspective is that it was Germany that was the strongest advocate of eastern enlargement. Germany may had loosen some political power in EU because of enlargement, but as they are the hub of Europe their economies and industries benefit enormously on having eastern central European countries being part of European Union.
And to give more detailed reason for why older EU countries have to give subsidies to new eastern entrants is that money spend there in medium and long term give bigger returns to donor countries due to network effects: i.e. EU companies become more competitive in world market when they can use eastern European labor and talent pool, growing eastern markets demand more products and services from western countries etc..
Of course I think there is also a moral demand to take back eastern European countries back to the European family.
To 132. KrzysztofPoland (132):
Dude, didn't you get Friday memo? Oh dude.
Ok, the thing is, Europe is the trademark of European Union. Got that. So EU is Europe? Got that? Excellent.
Oh, hey Americans, we are also going to put the title of "Leader of the free world" in dispute. I think President Barroso deservers it more. So in future it's like...
President of the European Commission, Leader of the free world, Jose Manuel Barroso
Okey? Yeah! Awesome!
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134. WhiteEnglishProud:
"I never understood why the Eastern Bloc countries were allowed in the E.U so we could pay to fix them up and allow them to move West."
You may not have noticed that the British government has been at the forefront of the push for enlargement of the EU for at least 30 years. Various Foreign Office mandarins were not in favour of the UK joining (like a number of posters here) and sought to over-inflate it in the hope that it would finally (like a balloon) explode from internal pressure.
How do I know? Sorry, can't say, won't say, but I do know.
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#138 - Jukka_Rohila
Not sure what you are on tonight but I agree with every word. Make mine a litre:-))
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#139 - greypolyglot
You don't have to be an insider to figure out that the civil service has it's own agenda - especially at the FCO. Maybe that is inevitable when the body politic is so lacking in one.
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Krzysztof @131
Hate to disappoint you.
we helped Japan in 1905
? we didn't notice
we stopped you in 1920
? and where were we going? don't remember any plans in 1920.
we started uprisings every time you tried to become european superpower
with uprisings you always did allright, no denial, for centuries. who did you protect from us "in Europe" in particular? Germany?
we destroyed your dreams about Pan-slavic empire
I'll be modest. The sky of the slavs is still above your head.
we were there to help Georgia when you rug-tag army itched to rob Tbilisi
what a shock for Sarkozi
we told truth about Katyn
to who? we knew, Britain knew, Germany knew. but then you can still tell Timbuktu.
we won in 1989 with a help of our American friends
my my my. said a spider to the fly.
and we will always oppose your Russian Empire !
here you forgot to add "when the US finally pays us 20 mln dollars for placing their equipment". you were never exactly inclined towards noble gestures FOC.
but then, may be, the very fun of hating Russia pays by itself? you might review the bargain, give US a discount, crisis and all?
Krzystof, on Russian racism. A very bad thing no doubt. But we decreased Poland even in our very racist attitudes, sorry to tell. What was for centuries a set expression "a Jewish man is a square Pole" sadly became "A Jewish man is a square Ukrainian".
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134. WhiteEnglishProud
The problem with the Newcomers to EU like, for instance Poland; is that their idea of the EU ? was to gain more and give less. They are destructive. When it comes to the EU money ? they are European.
Thanks God we cut the subsidies to the Gdansk shipyards. !
When it comes to defending European Interests ? they are anti European and pro American.
Well ? my understanding ? if they do not want ? let them go.
136. mcdv-1975
Elite. Still I think that every country needs Elite. The educational system is far from being perfect.
As it was mentioned ? there are courses which people just take ? because it costs nothing.
There should be a competition to enter the elite universities ? to give people stimulus.
But I insist ? talented children from every social segment should be given an opportunity.
civilization moves ahead ? because Heroes and Leaders give it a drive ..
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#131 - KrzysztofPoland
I take it that the uprising of '56 to which you refer were the Poznan protests, which were suppressed by your own Polish authorities, not the Russians.
The privilege of requiring Soviet intervention in 1956 was reserved for Hungary.
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142 Alice
In 192o the Poles were trying to get as much territory from weak Russia as possible.
Ten of thousands of Red Army Soldiers and offices were killed in the polish concentration camps . (they were called of course the POW camps)
It was a real bloodbath ? exceeding Katyn dimensions.
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thank you zhanette and threnodio
I also thought 1956 strange, but then we stopped counting Polish uprisings a century and a half ago.
and, I mean, in the rare intervals when they don't uprise against Russia - it still seems to them they do.
so how the hell can a Russian know.
and, mind it - slavs! but - another religion, Catholic.
one would think - so, what? as if we don't have own catholics here?
I don't know. curious thing, anyway.
we just take it for granted, normal Polish condition.
I'd worry when they stop. but hope this day is far.
With the Russian tsars bowing to the Polish in Kremlin, Krzsystof is right. I don't exactly know which tsars they were, to bow, I'd think we exactly had none left. But the Polish were in Kremlin, in hordes. Like, a combined Polish gang, consisting of I don't know who.
Our first dynasty has unfortunately expired by that time, Rurik off-spring, "Rurikovichee" and Romanovs haven't started yet. In the interval the Polish did sneak into Kremlin for a while. Then kicked out of course, and we had the first Romanov, young Michael, 1613.
My very dear old Revolution day (7th November celebrations) was a year ago re-placed with another day off, 4th of November. Because Russians got used to to have a day off in the beg. of November, and taking revolution away without compensation the government didn't dare.
So Kremlin was thinking hard what to do, sent historians search high and low what else was good in early Nov. to celebrate, instead of the communist revolution.
4th of November is a big church holiday, Russian Orthodox, was always marked as the day of Kazan icon, that saved us in the Kulikov battle with tatar-mongols and in the Borodino battle with Napoleon. Was carried in front of the troops.
So 4th was basically asking to be appointed as an official day off, national holiday - but what about other churches in Russia? Being PC you can't announce a holiday in one church a holiday for all religions!
At that very moment Poland agreed to take US armament in.... And Kremlin had an enlightment! A little bit of paper shaffling around, and why? 4th of November - is the day when the Poles were evicted from Kremlin! (further than Red Square they never went out of the Kremlin walls, were sitting there locked up like in prizon).
So now we have a brand new day off - 4th Nov - "Liberation of Kremlin from the Polish celebrations"!
Just had it days ago. Communists celebrated their revolution with red banners, Russian orthodox celebrated Kazan icon day, other religions simply watched TV and rested, and historians may be were getting nervous, because they aren't sure which day it was.
And Kremlin - we hope? - drank to the dis-armament of Europe!
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I don't think Europe is really any more or less racist than the United States. The real thing Obama's election teaches us is that when a truly gifted person is the candidate for head of government, it really doesn't matter what they look like or what their background is.
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threnodio
In Poland at that time you might also know that one did not necessarily require Soviet intervention for Soviets to surpress an uprising.
Comunism in Poland was an ideology forced by the Soviets upon the Poles.It was in my opinion nothing sort of an invasion.
Even during Nazism in Europe we have seen local authorities surpressing uprisings,but that does not exlude the fact that the surpresors ultimately were the Nazis and the Comunists as was the case here.
I can see that western Europe and others find it hard to understand that America is considered a real and genuine friend in most Eastern European countries,including Poland,and rightly so,in my opinion,for they have seen first hand the bruital ideology that comes out of authoritarian regimes,and extreme mentalities ,and freedom and human rights and prosperity that comes out of America.
To other parts of Europe this might seam stupid rethoric,but to people that have suffered under the extreme hardship imposed by the real empire of evil this is an reality they see and touch everyday.
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zhanetta @143
Eastern Europe saw in European Union a union of free countries prospering,where human rights were respected and democracy secured.
It is not as you say that countries like Poland only want some cash from European Union and then choose to side with America.
First of all this countries have been engaged in long and hard negociations and painfull transitional period before they joined the Union,and they are taking from the Union only what they are entitled to as a member with full rights.
Poland (but not only,I am taking Poland as the example since thats the case in our discussion)
is a free and independent country not bound to the union by conditions,but like every other country in the union it has a free and independent foreign policy.
If its own interests is to be close to America (just as is the case with Britain for example,and other easten European countries) it has no condition placed upon it by the European union to purssue its national interests.
Plus there are no main issues were the European Union and America disagree so much that Polands suport for America would be seen as a betrayal or something.
I dont know what they teach you in Russia,but Europe and America countinue to be close allies,interconected by markets,people,and most importantly values,specially the respect for HUMAN RIGHTS,something that seams to be an alien concept across the Urals.
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WebAliceinwonderland.
I have noticed that you are critical of the west.(in other topics aswell,such as the Georgia conflict)
Cant you see that even that limited economic prosperity you have in Russia you owe it to the west,cant you see that even that limited freedom you have there you owe it to the west.
Surely then the west cant be that bad?
And cant you see that extreeme mentalities and human right abuses dominate in Russia?
And I have nothing against Russian people who are noble,generous,and nice people,but the evil Bizantian authoritarianism,racim,and extremism that Russian establishment,state and church have inherited.
Its primar victmim has, is ,and unless it changes will be the Russian people theselves.
I remember the words of an politician who said that Russia for what it is could not produce anything but Putin,is a fittin image.
Is so sad.
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Named-Erion @148
Polish attitude to Russia in 2008 is the same as in 1860. When a large lot of them, as a result of uprising No 100 were evicted to Siberia. (My great grandma, Janowska, included.)
Question: The Russian Empire, in 1860 - how far more Evil it was than, for example, than the British Empire of 1860?
I think the attitude of those who have a fix about Russia is that anything Russian is Evil by definition and will be. Tsar Russia, Communist Russia, Yeltsin Russia, Putin Russia - nevermind.
With USA carrying all things good and noble on the wing to Poland, Georgia and Chech...
Kosovo.
Finland as well, I'd say, heard a lot of praise towards USA from the Finnish blogger here.
Sure the US pursues no own agenda?
nothing like to undermine historical Russia's "sphere of influence" - as the very minimum?
To get a foothold in Europe, for own ends?
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I think USA is a Trojan horse in the EU. "Be scared of the Danaj, bringing the presents."
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As far as the election of Obama and racism in general in the US goes. I'm going to refer to 2 Robert Frost poems.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
------------------------------------------------
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
---Good for us, lets hope it really does make a difference and not forget we still have a long way to go.
I'll let the Europeans decide on which road they are traveling and how far they have left to go before they achieve golden societies.
Fascism and Communism may have been defeated, Socialism been diminished, and Capitalism (pending the current global recession) challenged - But I'm still waiting for Altruism to rise victorious.
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Named-Erion,
we viewed perestroyka as return back in time to 1917. like, forget the prev, 70 years, they never been, we start from the bourgeoisie revolution of February 1917 and move on.
and you thought we are going to take Western values of 1990 on board !
this is the main mis-understanding btw us.
you thought, like, why won't they join the modern world. we have trampled the paths, know the ways, are ready to share the knowledge and experience with Russia - "take it, it's yours!"
I understand that, and understand your disappointment that we don't.
there is a strong core disbelief about Western intentions in Russia. I am not the exception. it is, like, we don't want anything from your hands. even when you offer good things, seemingly. we are very thankful and all, but we prefer our own.
when something is your own grown, you trust it. when you make own mistakes - you blame yourself only.
I am afraid we are not going to take the short-cut. but will trample own paths. to give you the mood and the atmosphere.
this may be wrong, and we might not have time to do it our way, and may very well end up in fiasco, no doubt. the "prima victim", as you said, is clear who, and all.
don't know.
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so, 1917 plus, say, 17, we are in the year 1934 now. seems about right.
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As an American, I think it's much more likely that Europe will be the first to have an openly gay head of state. With Bertrand Delanoë's popularity, and his chances of reaching the French presidency, you'll get there long before we will here in the US. Even when a gay man (or woman) reaches that level of national political stature here, there will HUGE hurdles for him (or her).
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Especially after reading much of this thread i do have to wonder however,
-- How can a minority 'tanned' son of an immigrant politician come to power when many Europeans can't get over their petty little difference between 'similarly pale' neighbors.
I ask Krystof - Would you vote for a politician born IN Poland, who was charming, called for positive change, and harkened to the great Polish ideals - but whose father happened to be Russian? I'm not just talking PM or Pres but how about mayor or MP.
Would Italy elect an Albanian descendent with the same qualities, the French a US American, Slovakia a Hungarian, etc.
--- Has anybody even mentioned the Roma on this thread?
Obviously in some cases yes (and prbly more often in the UK and Netherlands) but in too many cases no.
I still remember when an English customer of mine remarked on his disdain for the French and immediately brought up the Battle of Hastings - I humbly listened to his gripes all the while thinking to myself 'dude that was 1066, get over it" - or when I was sitting across from a Swede at a banquet and he remarked on how he didn't trust the Russians because "After all we fought a war against them in the 1700's".... Honestly I think many of 'you' need to deal with your culturalist and ethnicist bias just as much as racism
I do admit that post-schengen neighborhoods has reduced someof these feelings and true the US has never had a serious beef with Kenya (where BO's dads from) and an obvious Mexican would def have more than appropriate trouble reaching the presidency, and the anti-french attitudes displayed here in 2003 were uncalled for.
Still it somehow seems appropriate that the EU capital is in Brussels yet the Flemish and Walloonians cant even get along long enough to put together a coalition gov't
And again as shown by Peru's 1st Quechuan president Mr Toledo - who despite all the pomp and circumstance did little if anything for peruvian indegenous rights or quality of life - Who cares what your ethnicity, gender, or religion is if you're still the same pile of ineffective political malaise! Hopefully Obama wont be!
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#156 - stuartsez
I think you are right but that is not so much because there is less homophobia. It is more to do with the European perception that politicians sexual lives are their own business so long as they do not affect their ability to do the job. Mistresses have long been something a French president is expected to have and, if the Lewinsky thing had happened here, we would all have laughed and ordered another drink.
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If leaders of European states had been as homogeneous as American leaders have been, then maybe there would be an opportunity for an Obama-like figure to lead in Europe. Even Europe, being far older than the United states, is far more progressing thinking. Rather than being traditionalist, Europe in general has found a way to be utterly progressive yet hold its roots close at the same time.
Even though no European nation has elected a black leader, it will not carry the same aura that it did in the United States. Remember way back in the primaries? Well there was just as much of a buzz about Hillary Clinton's potential presidency as there was about Mr. Obama's. Europe has already had female leaders; quite successful ones at that. It would not be as much of a shock for Europe to elect a black leader, I honestly thought Europe would beat America to it.
-Andrew Wyler-David
radicaleconomist.blogspot.com
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"Mistresses have long been something a French president is expected to have and, if the Lewinsky thing had happened here, we would all have laughed and ordered another drink."
Maybe so, but the Lewinsky thing is not a good example. That was more over Clinton lying about it when asked, and mainly, because it represented him using his power for sex, which is a very serious offense in the US.
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Dear Alice,
I enjoyed your posts of 14-15 of Nov.
Interestingly ? British and Russians are very similar when it comes to humour. Other Europeans and
Especially Americans and germans often have problems with our ?black? joking.
To Named-Erion
Human rights abuse is a problem in Russia, you are right . But i think they are making progress.
But the main problem for Russia is corruption.
Alice
Question: The Russian Empire, in 1860 - how far more Evil it was than, for example, than the British Empire of 1860?
British Empire was the same ? they all played by the colonial rules. Britain was the most successful ? up to the certain moment?.
#Trojan horse in the EU. "Be scared of the Danaj, bringing the presents."
Alice ? Poland is the Trojan Horse.
The USA does not want Strong Europe. That is why ? they are using Polish and Irish cards to undercut the process.
But with China becoming stronger and stronger ? i do not see any other possibility for Europe as to turn into the reaL Unit and merge at some point with Russia .
Russia has all the resources which are necessary for the European Economy.
In 50-100-200 years ? do not know when - one language will dominate Europe - that will be English.
Or Chinese ? if they introduce letters.
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FreedomLover4Ever @ #160
"...using his power for sex, which is a very serious offense in the US.
Really?
Most Presidents must love to be "the most powerful man in the world" . . . . and using that power. I thought the supposed impeachable offence was simply the lying about it afterwards nad any coverup?
It would have been better if Clinton had just chilled and had a cigarette afterwards . . . . someone had to brag about it didn't they! ;=)
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zhanette @161, you are always welcome.
"Russia has all the resources which are necessary to the European economy."
That is very sweet, and I am sure we are all happy about it. Zhanette, this kind of soft "German" talk makes me think what else can be done in terms of the additional buffer states.
come to think about it, a double cushion might be softer. need to have a look at the map, what else is there :o)
menedemus @162, reminds me ab the Schtirlitz serie (some of you saw that wiki hilarious page Russian jokes). Anyway he was our local James Bond, Soviet colonel Isaev, on a spying and ? causing max. harm? mission in Berlin, Reichstag and all, end of the war times. Schtirlitz serie jokes never die here, he is still alive and on a mission.
_______
So,
A radiogramme from Monica Lewinsky.
To the Centre. The task fulfilled. Isaev.
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Zhanette, you've written earlier in the blog you have 3 countries you love and 1 more which is your flaming passion so you won't even mention it, afraid of you feelings in the public. :o)
The three were Germany, Russia and Britain (in exactly this order, I made a mental note).
Now, if your love is this quiet peaceful trio... scary to think what you passion is! :o)
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Europeans tend to forget that the US used to belong to them, or at least it belonged to their governments.
Spain established its first "US" city (St. Augustine, Florida) in 1585 and installed slaves from their other colonies in the Americas. These older slavery-based colonies had existed from about 1500 on.
A British Crown-chartered "US" colony (Jamestown, Virginia) bought Africans from a Dutch slave vessel in 1610. British vessels eventually brought about 500,000 slaves to their North American colonies.
Slavery was still being practiced in the "US" territory of New France when the American Republic bought it from Napoleon in 1803, even though it had already been abolished within the French Republic.
The US inherited a legacy of over 200 years of European colonial slavery within its present borders. Ending it took "four score and seven" years after independence in 1776, and finally a civil war in which 500,000 Americans died.
I'm not trying to justify those 87 years of slavery or the many other oddities of the American system, but it would certainly be refreshing if once in a great while, Europeans would remember why there was slavery in American history in the first place.
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@ BigBobbyK
a Swede ..remarked on how he didn't trust the Russians because After all we fought a war against them in the 1700.
Honestly I think many of 'you' need to deal with your culturalist and ethnicist bias just as much as racism
yes, those swedes. turnip heads what can I say. And what a great war it was! we took place for St. Petersburg from them. that they took from us before. that we took from them before.
They were 4 or may be 5 people here at that time - against ours whole 8!
because nobody in his right mind settled in this damp windy hole of a low lands ever.
:o)
seriously you are right of course, and I even think cultural attitudes mean more difference these days. than any prehistorical racism.
it's when there was no TV aliens from diff. tribes were recognised by diff. colour. at a good shooting distance.
Since that there has been more 'culture' (or - less?) - more difference!
so many ways to recognise the alien ways... innumerous options...parameters that are not compatible in the jig-saw.
plus old wars of course always there, at your disposal, if all the rest strangely doesn't repel.
however the homogenious mass advocated for Europe by some here (Jukka? hello? don't hear you) would be also a pretty pathetic amorphe view. "the warriors remembered the good old days
and battles where previously clashed tra la la"
Those were the days, my friend! in other words.
polarities get magneted to. A.
they also create energy. B.
and energy is deficit these days!
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162 Alice,
wonderful. as the germans say weiter so.
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On how conflicts btw countries should end, and memoirs of old wars, the best sample is in Youtube, if anyone has ever time at leisure at some point to watch whole 10 minutes.
Dial in Youtube directly The Captivating Star of Happiness (it will be placed by someone called Galabir), and pick to watch Part 1/2 (5/8) of the film.
5/8 is important to remember, all of them are "1/2" somehow. may be it means in two parts.
the thing even has "English subtitles" ! :o)
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116. WebAliceinwonderland
I was talking about plate tectonics which are below the cratons. ^^ Some of the continents you described such Baltica and Kazakstania are now part of the much larger tectonic plate called Eurasia.
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Ticape, well, I was wondering as well, re the diff. btw plates and the cratons.
May be it is the cratons moved, like little saucers, and underlying plates stayed below detached? or they shifted all together, cratons and plates? must admit this is beyond my normal scope, and you will know better.
I think i was talking about how they got combined, and you meant what it is now, one Eurasia.
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Quote: A European Obama?
We talk about a man and the United States of America (Which was constituently founded by shipped in grand mothers and fathers who came from Europe) and took it from the natives of that continent. Now it seems the good man we are talking about has African roots don?t we all humans have the same roots!!!!
Now to the question which was launched by Mr. Mark Mardell for this blog.
A European Obama? Europe does not need a man like Barack Hussein Obama II (pronounced /b?'r??k h?'se?n o?'b??m?/; born August 4, 1961). Please let the good man stay in the US he is much more needed there.
Any good hearted & educated adult Woman or Man for that matter will do for Europe. We live in the 21st century Ladies and Gentleman. It?s one World and it is round walking in any direction won?t make you walk away for good. We humans have to understand that it is all together or no one alone. The sooner you accept it, the earlier anymore exceptions there will be. Because that is what this is all about. Yours sincerely, Morning-Owl
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@jukka rohila (138)
you must really despise democracy if you love the antidemocratic EU so much.
What is it about elitist rule and sidelining parliamentary democracy that tickles your fancy so much?
And Barroso leader of the free world? That unelected piece of fertilizer? He's got no mandate, he's unelected and is not subject to meaningful parliamentary democratic scrutiny. He's more like a premier of some politburo.
Memo to elitist democracy-hater: EU is not Europe. EU is undemocratic. There's no mandate for political integration. Most countries would have voted no to the Lisbon 'enabling act' treaty.
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Can a black person become the PM in the UK? I doubt it. Tony Blair couldn't even convert to Catholocism while PM.
It is a great shame on the UK that there is such a lack of Afro Carribean influence in politics. But the British electorate isn't even ready to vote for a black winner on Strictly Come Dancing, let alone a Black leader of the state. And besides, Britons won't get the choice. You elect the party, and the party chooses the leader. How else do you get an unelected premier.
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It is very difficult for me to find the link between the debates on Polish history and the potential European Obama. What has Poland got to do with it?
I would rather direct the discussion towards Cem Ozdemir who an ethnic Turk and also the newly elected co-leader of the German Green Party.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7732976.stm
Can we really say "Yes We Cem"?
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Well, after looking over five days worth of postings, let me just respond with a line stolen from our comic Bill Maher: "We've got a kick-ass black dude for president named Barack Hussein Obama!"
And the rest of you guys don't!
Pthpthpthpthpthpthpth!!!!!
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A word to elite-admirers of half-wittiness: democracy is not local patriotism. The latter is respectful for national and suchlike differences, as well as for equality in opinions. The others, to whom, hopefully, my trifle still belongs, respect mostly differences in opinions.
When we say Americans we usually mean the citizens of U.S.A. It depends on context, of course. For the people leaving in Asia the city of Moscow is perhaps sufficiently covering concept of Europe. In the context of BBC and London the meaning of Europe is clearly defined.
The E.U. is not the United Nation, just an another gathering of nations. Therefore it is reasonable for the citizens of Europe, in the context of E.U., to expect that a democratic government will be constituted also on this larger-scale level.
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Even agreen eyed 12 legged monster could get elected if it said the right things and had as much money behind it as Obama had.
The main element is saying you will give something to the majority and that you will take action so that the majority benefit, then all you've got to do is get people to believe you. Acting & speech classes help.
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MrWonderfulReality @177 - that's the shortest summary of the elections i've read here so far :o)
what were all them experts paid for a mystery
really, no more intricacies observed on you side? like we in Russia know our pattern - a very hairy tsar follows a bold one and so on.
on the other hand, if the 12 eyed green monster says what is proper and does what is proper? think I'd agree to have green.
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Tho this is not for sure....But some historians speculate that the US of A may have already had a Gay President.
James Buchanan Jr
Authors have noted that his long-time living companion, Senator and later VP William Rufus KingKing was called ?Miss Nancy? by Andrew Jackson, ?Mrs. James Buchanan? by James K. Polk?s law partner, and ?Buchanan?s better half? and ?Aunt Fancy? by others. King was noted for his ?fastidious habits and conspicuous intimacy with bachelor Buchanan.
On the other hand Buchanan did have a failed engagement and did court several other women.
Still politics and the media were def'ly different beast back in the 1850's and I have no doubt an OPEN member of the LGBT community would have great difficulties achieving high office here.
Also Buchanan, often called the US's worst president is not exactly someone the LGBT community or any other would want to hold up as an example.
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Haha I just found out that in 1852 nearly 7000 people voted for Daniel Webster (who had died 10 days b4 the election) He would have prbly won more votes if his name hadn't been removed from the ballot in all but GA & MA
See how progressive us Americans are - Zombie Party 2012 - woot
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And the world will be a better place when it is ruled by a a black Muslim lesbian in a wheelchair.
Come on...surely it´s just a case of the best person won, hasn´t that ever happened in Europe?
What I think is much more interesting is people´s reaction to each other´s comments. Lots of chips on shoulders (I prefer them with salt and vinegar).
Europeans should be prepared for Americans everywhere to be admiring their new nipped and tucked visage in the mirror. Those Bushy features were getting mighty ugly, what we are witnessing are shreeks of joy coming from the recovery room as the bandages are removed and the perfect Holywood face revealed.
The US has had a facelift - what could be more American Dream than that? Why the surprise for some of them to think the US has suddenly got the moral high ground?
Whether it´s an African-American in the US, a woman in Germany, a gay man in Holland, I think we should all be mildly happy that generally we are sort of very slowly moving in more or less the right direction.
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