Georgian hospitality
The sun is blazing, the mountains hazy in the background, the vines are heavy with big bunches of small, sweet grapes and a wood fire laid on the ground is blazing away. A delicious smell of roasting meat wafts in the direction of the round stone table where I sit with my hosts. 
It is an idyllic setting to enjoy some of the best things in life, even if I am here because of some of the worst things in life - war and economic ruin. We have been filming in the vineyards, talking about the effect of the war with Russia and the rather more longstanding economic embargo, particularly against the extremely popular Georgian wine. I have heard a lot about Georgian hospitality, but experiencing it is quite another matter altogether.
After half a dozen toasts I feel it is time for me to propose one, on behalf of the away team, for the home: glass in hand I propose a toast to a good harvest, peace and prosperity. My hosts are kind but firm. I have already taken a sip from my rather large glass and that will never do. I have to drain it and have it filled again with the slightly sherry-like white before I can continue.
Squares of pork and lamb on green wood sticks join the good bread, fresh and salted tomatoes and peppers already on the table. The formal interviews are over, so I ask what our hosts, the owner of the vineyards, his brother and some friends really think about the Americans. His answer slightly surprises me. He talks about a nation born in bloodshed and theft of land from the native Americans: the US only understands conquest and military might. Are they worse than the Russians then, the country that has just fought a war with his country? They are all as bad as each other.
What about the European Union? I ask. Compared to the Americans or Russians aren't we just a bit weedy, a bit wet? I hope the translator knows what I mean.
Listen, we love our guests. You can stay a week, two weeks, a month, but you are our guests. We want to be an independent country.
To me he puts his finger on an important argument. It is more than understandable why Russia doesn't want one of its old friends or vassals to slip into the arms of potential enemies. It is striking that Georgia, for all the talk of Europe, begins where the eastern edge of Turkey stops. It is further east than Moscow.
I have just been to Gori, where there stands a huge statue of Stalin, Georgia's most famous son. Georgia became part of the tsarist empire in 1800 and after a brief post-revolutionary period of independence became part of the Soviet Union. The problems of South Ossetia can be traced directly to Uncle Joe's strategy of divide and rule for his homeland.
To the Russian ambassador to Nato, Dmitry Rogozin, the arguments of history are powerful ones. He tells me that just because you like someone's wife it doesn't mean you can take her home. He quickly adds that Georgia and Ukraine may not be Russia's wife, but they are neighbours and if other countries want a partnership with Russia they should consult with Russia about its neighbours. He says unfortunately for Americans there is no saw in international politics: Georgia cannot be cut away from the region and placed in the Caribbean. How would America have liked it if Canada and Mexico had been invited to join the Warsaw Pact? he says.
But does - or more important, should - a country have the right to invite who it chooses to sup and toast, rather than be automatically placed in one camp or another by the vagaries of history or geography?
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~04~RS~)
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A grape stone will put into the warm ground
Will kiss the vine, and pick up a ripe bunch of grapes
Will invite the friends, tune my heart onto love
Otherwise, what for, I live in this sinful Earth?
Do collect then, guests, quicker, to my treats at table
Tell me straight into face - who you really consider me be!
Heavenly Tsar will then send me forgivance for all my sins,
Otherwise - what for, I live in this sinful Earth?
I my dark-red will sing in front of me my darling
In my dark-white I'll bow to her
And I'll lose myself listening, and will die from love and sorrow
Otherwise - what for, I live in this sinful Earth?
And when my sunset will swirl in, flying into corners
Let again and again, in front of me, swim, as if for real
Heavenly Tsar. Dark-blue eagle. And a trout, goldenly.
Otherwise - what for - I live in this sinful Earth?
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Georgians are difficult to put in perspective..Europeans, non-Europeans. Many things are in their favour such as their outwards appearance, culture and religion...could it be that Europe is more a north south divide than east west?
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I can barely believe you ask that question Mark because it is equivalent to asking if nations have a right to decide their own course in the world. There is an issue of self-determination at stake here but only in relation to the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and whether they are entitled to break-away from Georgia if they wish. There is also a conflicting principle at stake, i.e. the territorial integrity of a sovereign state (Georgia) and the violation of the principle by Russia. The heart of the issue here is really the conflict between these principles of self-determination and territorial integrity.
The root of the problem in my opinion is that Georgia is denying the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia the right to decide the form of government they wish to live under. If South Ossetia and Abkhazia would vote to stay as part of Georgia then the Russians are in the wrong to use military force to support their allies in these regions. But if South Ossetia and Abkhazia would vote to break-away from Georgia (or are denied this choice) then it is Georgia that is in the wrong. As I see it Georgia was wrong to crush the autonomous status of these provinces and the Russians were wrong to send their forces across the border.
The West should encourage plebiscites in South Ossetia and Abkhazia such that the people there can decide their own futures. Russia should do the same in its Caucasian provinces (e.g. North Ossetia, etc.) such that state boundaries might be redrawn to reflect the wishes of the people who live in the area rather than the power lust of their neighbours.
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If it's only about geography, Malta and Cyprus should have never joined the EU, because Malta lies on the African tectonic plate, and Cyprus is practically the Middle East. Obviously, the two countries are clearly European, so the question whether a country should be able to join the EU is more of a cultural decision.
On the other hand, there's little of a cultural difference between the east and the west of Russia (a lot less than between the north and the south), so should the unimaginable happen, and Russia would want to join the EU (and fulfil the requirements, and everybody would agree), would the EU stretch all the way to China and Japan?
But perhaps we should worry about that only from the moment that this would become relevant.
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Mark,
Your deceptively straight forward post poses several complex questions simultaneously. I too was slightly surprised about your hosts remarks about the US treatment of native Americans. Then I realised that anyone round that table over 40 will have been educated under the Soviet curriculum. This will have attempted to promote a slightly jaundiced view of US democratic credentials and traditions. Put that view within the context of what has happened since and the conclusion is unsurprising and all the more interesting for being a perfectly valid view of history - not, as one might expect, a revisionist one.
As to attitudes to independence, cultural identity and self-determination, there are two quite separate and sometime contradictory ones. There is the narrow interpretation of strict legal status. This is determined by international law and the interpretation that the international community and especially the major powers choose to put on it. The old colonial principles of the 18th and 19th centuries remain basically true. Powers greater than theirs ultimately draw borders and, in practice, there is little they can do about it. The end of colonialism has signaled that borders tend not to be moved around with impunity any more but the legal status of people living within them remains in the gift of others.
No reasonable person, for instance, would deny the Palestinians the right to self-determination but the bottom line is that this will be achieved only when the preconditions of Israel and the quartet are satisfied. Kosovo is independent because the international community have said so in large enough numbers to make it a reality. Abkahzia and South Ossetia may have achieved some kind of de facto status but the lack of recognition damages that. The point remains true. Others decide their status, not the local populace.
This does not prevent people from identifying themselves in an emotional way with a national culture - cuisine, art, music, language etc. Go to north east Spain and you never lose sight of the fact that you are in Catalonia, travel to Transylvania and, although you are in the middle of Romania, you might just as well be in Hungary.
At this emotional and cultural level, Georgian expectations are legitimate and laudable. We are who we are - just let us to get on with it. At a political and legalistic level, it all becomes more complex. Guarantees of independence are required from more powerful allies and neighbours. It is when these issues are 'internationalised' that they tend to get messy because they fall out of the control of the very people whose legitimate aspirations they purport to represent.
To stand an earthly chance of securing and maintaining autonomy, nations need to be conscious of how they conduct their own affairs and how this is perceived by the wider world. On the day when, yet again, a Ukrainian government has been dissolved, they should be looking at how this appears from the outside. Do NATO and the EU really want to embrace countries which cannot sustain continuity of government?
As for Georgia, one would hope that the country south of the 'Sarkozy Line' will now be allowed to get on with life as an independent state. As for the breakaway provinces, they will have to live with the consequences of the dodgy cartography of their former son Stalin for decades to come.
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And are you going to follow with a story about Ossetian hospitality? Abkhaz hospitality? Russian hospitality? Ukrainian hospitality? You can find all of those groups amply represented in Moscow proper, and I am quite certain they shall be only too pleased to host BBC journalists and tell them their points of view about life. You are treading on thin ice here, my friends -- and you know it!
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#3 - Freeborn-John
I respect your principles but it is a matter of degree. By your argument, if the Isle of Wight were to vote for independence, you would support their right to have it. S Ossetia and Abkhazia have become footballs in a much bigger political game made all the more difficult by the fact that the big players have not acquitted themselves well. When nations seek to come into being, the practical questions of political institutions and economic viability are inescapable.
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The "vagaries of history and geography" are, alas, absolutes, that really we cannot any of us do anything about. We cannot change the past, nor can we change the decisions or choices of our ancestors, and we certainly cannot relocate our lands.
Key to understanding whatever occurs in life is acceptance of the things we cannot change.
The difficult thing about history is that the real, true facts of what actually happened at any given moment x in point y are rarely exhaustively documented. Therein lies the great challenge to humanity, everywhere: not to go on a rampage against anyone, not to maim or loot or slaughter or break faith, because the one thing we do know is that the ensuing suffering is bound to be incalculable.
Wars rarely go the way the instigators expect them to. Best to avoid bloodshed altogether!
Best to remember your neighbours are likely to be your neighbours for all the foreseeable history that lies ahead... for the parts you still can shape, in other words.
Thank you for a more completely informative and balanced piece, BBC and Mr Mardell.
For your further, deeper knowledge, might i recommend you research a bit the Western powers' interventions in the Caucasus during the Russian Civil War? While understandably trying to prevent the Bolshevik dictatorship from taking a firm grip on the Russian Empire, the Western powers concurrently hoped to help themselves to control over considerable parts of its southern territories, including the all-important Caspian & Black Sea regions...
In other words, after the disasters of the Crimean War (which was terrible for everyone), there remained a lingering hope amongst some that parts of "Russia" might still be hacked away for the benefit of France, Britain, the US and a few others...
And it is within the context of those mad dreams that we must actually evaluate the lunacy of the past summer's catastrophically misconceived little Georgian war...
Thank you for being there and doing your work as well as you honestly try to.
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Your host may be warm, hospitable, generous to a fault, give you the shirt off his back but when it comes to international politics and history he is a blithering idiot, an ignorant fool. The worst thing that could happen to Georgia is for America to pack up and walk away. But then being east of the Urals, isn't Georgia part of Europe? I would hardly expect less.
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#3, #7
Why can the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man have their own form of government whereas the Isle of Wight can't? How is it that places like Monaco and Andorra can exist as separate states while an independent Kosovo is considered so controversial? Does it depend upon having the right sort of "Friends" - it worked for South Ossetia and Abkhavia so why does it not work for Transnistria? (Actually, on the latter point, it seems that SO&A may be the first to recognise Transnistria!)
Remember that democracy was founded on the basis of independent CITY-states - not the megablocs that have hijacked the word whilst denying its spirit.
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I suppose the real question is not whether the South Ossettia and Abkahsia have legitimate independence from Georgia as that point is now moot! The South Ossettians and Abkhasians (whatever their ethnicity) and their lands are effectively annexed to the control of Russia.
To my mind, the question is more about the future of what still remains the independent nation of Georgia.
Threnodio at #5 succinctly put the question into context. Borders and independence are mere apspirations of small nations if the global powers do not agree to changes in a small nation's borders or status. Freedom is an illusion if a big power does not permit that freedom.
The world need to understand what does Russia want with Georgia. For example:
If Russia says "Nyet" to Georgia joining the EU or, even more likely, says "Nyet" to Georgia joining NATO - what happens then?
Does the EU support freedom of choice of small nations and, therefore, support the aspirations of the Georgians at all costs or does it roll over and accept that Russia has a "Sphere of Influence" and that the Georgians are a subservient nation to the bigger power wishes of Russia whether the EU or Georgia likes it or not?
It is clear to me that Russia seeks parity with the USA as a global power. It may even recognise the EU as a potential equally important global power (although I have my doubts as to whether Putin and Medvedev actually think that having dealt with our French superhero President Sarkozy in person and the recent utterances of Medvedev seeking to split Germany and France from being allies of the USA!).
If this Russian perspective of Russia having global power status has credibility then both NATO and the EU have to make a decision as to whether they are prepared to defend, at all costs, the sovereign right of small "near-abroad" nations such as Georgia to seek self-determination.
In principle, the EU and NATO nations have to agree to be prepared to match Russia deed-for-deed and act-for-act to stand up for small nation liberty and free choice or, alternatively, sacrifice small nations such as Georgia to domination by Russia.
At this time, the US appears to determined that it will not sacrifice Georgia to the global power domination of Russia. Do the freedom loving EU member nations have the same courage of their convictions?
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threnodio's, 7, "the practical questions of poitical institutions and economic viability are inescapable"
On the political institutions SO is of course, how to say.
Enough to say on their Independence announcement and parties and dancing in the street day, Kokoity was in Moscow.
Congratulating his fellow S.Osetians from the main Moscow TV channel ! I opened my mouth and forgot to return the jaw back to the place.
Abkhasian president Bagapsh was also invited, "to share his happiness with Russians, on such a remarkable day", but nicely declined, like, thank you very much, and was party-ing with own folks on the ground. Russian TV showed a passing glimpse of him, from which one could make out that the only concession of having anything in common with the Russians on that day, is Bagapsh drank a glass with the captain of the guest Russian navy warship.
From which we've also concluded he is not altogether opposite to the idea of the Russian navy base in some Abkhasian town, as an add. source of income and jobs(hopefully he won't take Ukraine's $ 17 mln charge for Sebastopol rental as orientation tag).
on "economic viability" all in SO have been, is, and will be Russian.
Though I like Freeborn-John's idea of plebiscites; even if conducted by someone as friendly to Russia as ? say, Poland, the results will be either for independence North Osetia+South Osetia combined, or -"to Russia."
minus if someone happens to be 115 years old and illeterate, then his cross will be interpreted "for Georgia, no doubt! just look at this cross."
SO true independence is an unimaginable thing, but the fun of the situation is what
it will be. Because of all this int'l shout Russia can't lose face and will strive to keep this Potyomkin village-2 independent.
Whereas they don't want to be independent. All they ever wanted is to get re-united with their cousins in North Ossetia.
And, yes, join alltogether into Russia.
Not because it's top of desires, but second best. Caucasus is such a place, interestng neighbours, hard to stand alone.
To aggravate matters further, powers of North Osetia don't want to unite with the South. They are willing to help them, but to lose the separate status and be dissolved... into a bigger Ossetia... may be later... but not now. 2 leaders, one North, one South, and both wish to keep their thrones and access to separate budgets.
It's a knot there.
Like, a love triangle.
On the overall direction, either towards Georgia or Russia, it is not so surprising.
If you had the choice of only 2, where would you prefer to be. One nice party at a Georgian table is nice, but you have to make a living as well.
As a woman, I won't like to live in modern Georgia definitely. Osetian girls are more or less equal to their men, well, not exactly, but still, a better situation. Georgia was so much muslim invaded for centuries, that the woman position in their society is, well.
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threnodio (7): I do not disagree that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are political footballs in a game between the bigger powers of Russia and Georgia (and to a lesser extent the USA). What I object to is the mentality that these Great Games of empire are still legitimate. The issue to me is the relative ordering of three principles (a) the self-determination of peoples (b) the territorial integrity of existing states and (c) that 'might is right'. I say that the priority should be a, b, c.
The dissolution of the USSR is an ongoing process with only the larger nations (like Georgia) currently having achieved independence. There is a minimum size below which a state is not viable (the smallest current state is Tuvalu with a population of around 11000). I do not know enough about the Caucasus to say if South Ossetia (or even a unified Ossetian republic including the Russian-controlled North Ossetia) are below this threshold. If they are then status as a semi-autonomous province within Russia or Georgia is their best option. Otherwise independence should be preferred. In either case I believe that there will be no lasting peace until the wishes of the people who live in these areas are given greater precedence than the views of Tbilisi or Moscow. The immediate issue is that the principle of territorial integrity requires there to be no border changes without the approval of the state (Georgia) in question. The West ignored this principle in regard to the independence of Kosovo because there was both a Western belief that Kosovo’s right to self-determination should prevail AND no Western interest in supporting Serbia’s objections. The same priority should be given to the right of self-determination for South Ossetia and Abkhazia but this time there is a perception in some Western countries that we have an interest in supporting Tbilisi simply because they are opposed by the old Cold War enemy in Moscow. This is a temptation we should refuse. The Western interest is to support Western values, including the self-determination of people in South Ossetia and Abkhazia who identify more with Russia than with us.
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My idea is Mark Mardell dined at that Georgian table with men. While women stood in attention.
SO girls are russified, in that they pester and command their men-folk as much as they please! well. nearly.
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#10 - ClaphamBusman
Exactly my point. No two situations are the same. The Channel Islands, for instance, are the only remaining bit of France under British rule. France does not dispute British sovreignty and there is no controversy but the islands are not an integral part of the UK. The Isle of Wight is unquestionably not just British but English.
Monaco and Andorra have independence by virtue of history dating back many centuries as do several other territories (San Marino is the oldest democracy in the world). There is no such historical tradition in Transnistria. It is purely ethnic. To the east of the Dnieper, they are Russian Slavs, to the west predominantly Romanian. To make matters even more complicated, many Transnistrians favour union with Russia, with which it does not have a land border and, if they were to achieve that (or independence), the rump Moldova would possibly favour union with Romania (certainly a popular political grouping has campaigned on this platform).
So every case is different and that is why I do not think you can apply a simple set of rules across the board. I would dispute that it has worked for S.Ossetia and Abkhazia where Russian dominated administration enjoy the recognition of just one country - yes, Russia.
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To the Russian ambassador to Nato, Dmitry Rogozin, the arguments of history are powerful ones.... How would America have liked it if Canada and Mexico had been invited to join the Warsaw Pact? he says.
That was in effect what Cuba was, a Warsaw pact memeber and it was not merely a nation friendly to the USSR, it was a launching platform for the USSR to spread the cancer of Communism in the Western Hemisphere and a base for Soviet nuclear weapons that almost triggered the end of human life on earth. There is no logical legitimate equivalence between the expansionist Soviet empire that made no pretense that it wasn't out to conquer the world and the US and its NATO allies during the cold war. It's a bogus argument Communists, Socialists and liberals made. It is naive to accept it because it simply doesn't hold water.
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#13 - Freeborn-John
I will always applaud morally sound idealism when I encounter it but you do realise what you are asking for is a quantum leap of political attitudes world wide? I don't argue with you but I think you are asking for too much.
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17# threnodio
I think all it take is for the West to realise that sometimes we are complete Hypocrites.
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MAII, "the worst thing that could happen to Georgia is for America to pack up and walk away."
This reminds me! What are you up to there?
You don't want SO, don't want Abkhasia, so what do you want - Georgia?
As if it's not enough that not only Russia but the whole EU is now messing up in that region (3-2) local affairs. USA as well!
And then Mark Mardell wonders can a nation decide who to sup with alone, and who to sit at the table!
As matters stand each of them will have to buy many chairs, to accommodate all the "guests" ! Who isn't there yet?
Come to think about it, it began from you, MA, I mean, USA, building a presence in Georgia! Without your encouragement in all formats the tie-eater wouldn't go, what was the word? - yes - berserk.
Much good USA did to Georgia so far; if this was thought so by locals only over 40 - as threnodio rightly points out, I'd think young Georgies have now a couple of caressing words to USA as well.
Who do you think they blame they lost land? Themselves? three ha ha. Georgians never blame themselves. (and, well, who does?) they have the same ego-maniacy we are the only good ones in the world-mania, God's selected nation, like USA has. (in fact, lots of cultural similarities)
You think they blame Russia? Russia is old news, always crazy Russia. Same as complain about weather. Rest assured they blame - you !
What do you await there like a spider with your 18 ships. 4 of them carrying warheads far-flying enough to reach Moscow from where they are anchored.
Admiral Baltin died from heart break several days ago, you can have a party, MA.
Commander of Black Sea fleet since 1993.
All it took is 1,5 months of what I can describe in general terms is many a sleepless night, afraid to take eyes off the screen, not to miss that valuable half a second.
How would you Admiral feel, MA, with 18 Soviet warships anchored within 80 miles, from, say, Philadelphia, for 40 days in a row.
Knowing that all you can put against to protect country is a preservative jam tins of a pre-historic ruins Black Sea fleet.
You are playing on nerves, and what do you pursue there - only God knows. And it is good we have cool heads like Lavrov and a very cool head Putin - by the way. good for all here.
With #11 Menedemus - will russia be hysterical about Georgia joining EU and NATO, oh please. I think we will ask for some swaps and concessions, but no, strategically - not against. The main thing for georgia being NATO is now in - namely - a buffer state created btw Russia and Georgia - SO. So Georgia is now basically free to do as it pleases. We won't border with it immediately. It so dearly wanted NATO, we so dearly wanted not to have it next door- so the price for Georgia's NATO membership has been paid. We are quit, or what is the word.
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Please understand that I am not putting down those who are expressing idealistic views. I do urge you to consider some of the more practical considerations which I see at fairly close hand living in central Europe.
One is the sheer speed at which events develop. For example, Montenegro has only recently voted to leave the rump Yugoslav Federation (Serbia and Montenegro). Montenegro indicated quite recently its continued support for the Serbian position on Kosovo yet today the Herald Tribune reports that Montenegro will recognise Kosovo. This is not 'a Paul on the road to Damascus' revelation. It stems from hard reality. Montenegro sees its future with NATO and the EU. That means, de facto, acceptance of Kosovo. Like it or not, Kosovo is a done deal.
I was interested in what Menedemus was saying about the future of Georgia so I have spent a while today at a place frequented by Georgian and Ukrainian acquaintances. Interestingly, the Georgians, while angry about the war and the loss of S.Ossetia and Abkhazia, seem confident about the future for the rest of the country. The Ukrainians, on the other hand, are anxious about today's developments and are echoing the sentiments I expressed some days ago. Why would NATO and the EU take seriously a nation that has two elections a year and gets caught red handed selling old Soviet weapons to south Sudan? It's a valid question and one which the west should take very seriously.
It is all well and good arguing that nations who want self determination should have it and the west goes some way towards that by promoting where practical progress towards democracy but, make no mistake, this can be a high risk strategy and there are situations where discretion is the better part of valour.
The west should be playing a waiting game. The situation in Georgia appears to be stabilising, the Russian position vis a vis the west is softening. Medvedev is now taking the lead role in foreign policy (which is not in Putin's portfolio anyway) and the world economic downturn has focused attention on how badly we all need each other at the moment. It is to be hoped that Ukraine deals with it's internal issues in an adult way. If not, I agree with Marcus Aurellius II, it will make Georgia look like a side show.
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19 - WebAliceinwonderland
I think you overstate the stress factor of the American presence too much. I don't think anyone seriously believed that they were going to nuke Moscow. They don't need ships in the region to do that anyway. They still have ICBMs.
As to buffer zones, Russia and NATO have had a land border ever since NATO was formed - the Norwegian border. I don't recall any imminent wars arising as a result.
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threnodio.
Stress factor - disagree strongly.
Reality of the threat - well, may be you are right. Looking at it from 9th of October. Not Aug 10th when we had a navy fight.
With Norway, wow! You are right. Gives one a hope we don't actually need to tailor cut pieces of meat from immediate neighbours in future (example Ukraine) before they'd wish to join NATO.
However you'd be surprised, and may be it is because Norway is NATO - we don't see it as immediate neighbour. We don't see them as a neighbour at all. We don't see them, simply! Look through. No comms there on land. When you wrote they are our immediate neighbour, I didn't belive you, like, Norway??? and went to ask mum.
Mum says I am silly, sure we border, tiny
strip of land but still one can theoretically walk to them. Mama also added Norway hates it absolutely, because in reply for being NATO Russia took to habit of dumping on the borderline all the nuclear reactors old rusting subs and all old military possible as a garbage lot. Mum works in air protection that's how she happens to know. Says Norway complains non-stop and offers money for us to clean the garbage lot away! But we don't take their money and don't clean the old Soviet piles. As a warning to future applicants to the NATO position, it seems.
With stress factor you can't understand. You are not afraid of NATO. Here you can scare children with it for the night.
And navy may be kind of mind set it may be you don't understand, very much.
I am not navy. Just, some relations. I couldn't sleep first 2 weeks. You'd jump up and ran around, go to the kitchen and smoke at 6 o'clock. The US navy fleet stands as a bone in the throat. How they dare - in our Black Sea. (I know what MA would tell ab "our" Black Sea) but we fought in it so much, there are songs about it so much, we value it so much - it's like enemy trampling own land.
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Mark,
I believe you had a good time around a table with Georgians. However to highlight their hospitality in such a conflictive context means clearly a favour for one of the two sides.
While living in my birth city Barcelona I used to meet a group of mostly Russians and Ukranians (they met always up together) who were extremely kind and generous when they organized parties and dinners.
Moreover, very often there were Georgians in these gatherings and, franky, I couldn't spot any difference between them, who share the same religious tradition and use the Russian as lingua franca.
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#23 - WebAliceinwonderland
Your Black Sea? Alice please! Even in the Soviet days, something like 30% of the coastline was NATO (Turkey and Greece). Now Bulgaria and Romania are in the club, a lot more but it is an international waterway and access to it has long been controlled by NATO at the Bosporus and Dardanelles. Why do you think all those mad British generals made such a fuss at Sevastopol long before the USSR existed?
In fact, I sometime wonder why you need a Black Sea fleet. Since it has to go through the Bosporus and the Straights of Gibraltar or Suez before it can actually go anywhere, seems a bit pointlees.
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Reading Alice's comments at #23 was very interesting.
It also make me wonder whether, if Georgia does continue to seek NATO membership, if the South Ossettian and Abkhasian realise that they are going to get landed with all "the nuclear reactors old rusting subs and all old military possible as a garbage lot" that does not get sent to the Russian-Norwegian Border areas.
Now that would be the most excellent reward for South Ossettians and Abkhazians for receiving recognition of independence. And they don't get a chance to say "Nyet" as there are now 7/8000 Russian troops to help keep the peace and stop them from complaining about the noise of the Geiger Counters!
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Nanotchka, you worry far too much. Take my word for it, if the end comes because of war with America it will be painless. If you are unlucky you will see a blue white flash and then nothing. If you are lucky, you will never know what hit you. On instant everything will be normal, the next instant you will be vaporized atoms. Believe me there is surely no better way to die.
Don't worry about conventional bombs from America. We reserve those for nations which do not have the capacity for nuclear retaliation. Iraq, Afghanistan, maybe for now Iran, even North Korea although that last one is not certain. For Russia, the only conceivable strike from the US would be a coordinated nationwide nuclear strike. But why do you worry? You will have days, maybe weeks or months of advance notice to go to your useless underground shelters. That is where death will come slowly and painfully. It is best to be out in the open right at ground zero. If I am unlucky enough to survive the initial attack, I will spend my last hours in my basement uncorking all of my best bottles I have been saving.
No, your government is trying to scare the living daylights out of you because they are going to take money that should be spent on medical care, housing, education, roads, and other public works you need and spend them on military hardware instead. And you will be grateful because it will ease your fears that they are doing something for your benefit protecting you. Sweet dreams.
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#26 - Menedemus
LOL - Can you be dragged before the International Tribunal for fly tipping?
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USA teaches Russia it's bad to be an empire. Well well well
What was that, MAII, in the prev. thread? smth like by cutting short Soviet bases abroad you made a favour to the humanity, saving it from the cancer of Communism.
MAII, the only person in the world who believes in communism since ? about pre-after 2ndWW,
you know the answer, it seems to be you.
Any Soviet venture abroad, Syria, I don't know, Egypt, I mean, of course it was explained to local Russians that "we are helping them to become communistic", Cuba, Chile, I don't know, but it was not about spreading "communism". To put it shortly to have a base to fight USA from.
And some economic ties as well, but indeed very little.
That Cuba that you still jump up about, we inherited from you, and in dire conditions. No infrustructure - what were you thinking about. No energy. You didn't work much, how to say, on them being able to live by themselves. And when USSR wanted to build a nuclear power station there - you were screaming to the skies. Much like Iran now.
In the result for 30 years we were feeding them by ships. Kind of a very long-haul expensive way to deliver absolutely all to a country, because without energy they cannot have a one factory, one business, nothing big and practical industry. They don't make a thing.
So they still dance around and pick up what grows on the ground, weather permitting.
MA I am not angry today. OK, angry, about Baltin.
"nazi Russia" - you are back into your old boots again. May I note. (With this I am not agry because it's silly) (and I am also sometimes silly writing crap)
Mistake though you see yourself invited guest in Georgia, invited by the legally elected government. This is good for propaganda not for this blog. Georgians are angry at Russians that we didn't clean Saakashvili away, and instead of relieving them of him, relieved them of their land. As many I spoke in the blogs to were saying "stop this about meaning good to us, if you were you'd grab Saaka, not our lands. He attacked SO, not us, don't you know how it happens when you are goverened by specific people, and of all who know - Russians should understand best.) sounds a good point.
Looks like we did a wrong thing in Georgia. Instead of kicking Saaka (and his pro- American company away), we left these in place and took republics instead.
May be it would be far better for Georgia
if we ineed took Tbilisi instead, grabbed tie-eaters, turned around on our heels, and left clean, leaving them to arrange internal matters, incl SO and Abkhaz, by themselves.
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back to empires
MAII I am sure Kremlin sympathises with US problem deeply and profoundly.
When you wish to stretch the muscles and feel sporty, get afraid the world forgot how exactly you wish to be left alone - there is no one nearby on your continent ! Only Canada, which is really an old thing, for you can't pester Canada without a break, and Mexico, about which you can only build a new Chinese Wall around.
So you have no choice but to build a fleet and some airplanes to travel hell knows where, AND invent reasons as well, like weapons of mass destruction observed there or something.
Kremlin is at a so much more favourable position in this respect! We don't need to go far, the very geographic layout is rich! with 14 "ex", plus 6? 7? neighbours more - there is always someone like Estonia who starts excavatiing Soviet soldier bones, or Saaka would say he sells shit to Russia bottled as wines, I mean - the simple abundance of neighbours never makes life boring. On Poland we can always count, or Ukraine would step on our tube to the West, or, what was it recently? yes, they prohibited the Black Sea fleet to return home to base in Sebastopol.
So the homeless hobo Black sea fleet was wondering around NATO armada for a while, clever Ukraine thought this will improve matters greatly btw US and Russia, if Russian navy won't have where to step back.
Until Putin said "Let's see, how exactly Ukraine will stop our fleet returning to base."
Anyway.
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Dear Mark,
Thanks a lot for your delightful and very interesting article about Georgian hospitality; I happened to be one of the lucky westerners who have been blessed by Georgian hospitality many times. I was reading comments about self-determination of people in South Ossetia and in Abkhazia and frankly the ignorance or maybe the lack of knowledge of these issues, frustrate me enormously. Let’s take Abkhazia, where more than 350,000 ethnic Georgians were ethnically cleansed from their homes and deprived of basic rights by the militant and aggressive separatist regime which was supported by the powerful elements in Moscow since day one. Are we depriving these 350,000 Georgians IDPs the right to voice their desires and wishes in terms of what status should their region be given? In Abkhazia we have approximately 50,000-60,000 ethnic Abkhaz, and hence we enforce apartheid in these region my denying the rights of remaining 350,000 people who also possess every right to that region. Same goes to South Ossetia, where Georgian villages (as you know South Ossetia was the chessboard of mixed Georgian and Ossetian villages, there was no single ethnic territorial uniformity as such) were bulldozed, burned to the ground and completely destroyed. The Georgian population was ethnically cleansed and expelled from their ancestral lands. More than 30,000 ethnic Georgian fell victims to the brutal repressive regime of the war criminal Kokoity. Therefore, as we offer plebiscites and referendums to these regions under international supervision, we must include ethnic Georgians in the decisive factor about the future status of their regions. However, none of the separatist regimes and their Russian masters need such plebiscite or referendum, especially under international supervision, where every resident of these regions participates. They know they will definitely loose such a vote and hence carried out medieval methods of mass expulsion and murder of their ethnic nemesis. We must be reminding ourselves of the dangers of ethnic favoritism when it comes to ethnic conflicts (we should have learned from the bitter examples such as Rwandan Genocide). Therefore, when we talk of self-determinations of people, we must mean all people, regardless of their ethnic background. Otherwise, we only enhance the support for brutal apartheid type of unlawful regimes which came to power through systematic ethnic cleansing of groups which did not share their political vision. We also must remind ourselves that such perfect cases of people’s will did exist in Chechnya where its population expressed the will to create its own independent state but were brutally crushed by two sadistic and genocidal wars waged by their own state (at least constitutionally). In South Ossetia, Russians were allegedly protecting their citizens (to whom previously they allocated Russian passports as easily as handing out candies) but in Chechnya they committed mass murder of their own citizens who held different ideas about their own future.
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#26, now, Menedemus, the problem is these days old radioactive Soviet subs is a problem. Deficit.
Normally we'd of course drag a couple of hundred tons (through the 2-car wide tunnel? in the Caucases ridge?) to Saaka boots and tell him - now! you can join NATO!
But before you dump the garbage, you first ought to make that garbage. And we didn't build one ship, for 20 years. Thought the wars are over. So all we built long ago are our fleet, and we need them on water and can't spare them on land for neighbours willing to join NATO. (Therefore unorthodox independence solutions)
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threnodio.
Ab situation in the Black Sea.
You've listed too many countries who don't have exit to the Black Sea. Black Sea ends in Bosphorus.
I am not sure I should formulate it, how to say, let's say carefully.
"Turkey is a good neighbour".
Romania is currently headed by our people.
Bulgaria has very excellent traditional ties with Russia. We go to holidays there in masses and buy all their pickled cucumbers and all their agriculture wishes to pickle.
Two more are Russia and Crimea, sorry, Ukraine.
oj, forgot Georgia again.
And Abkhasia.
That's it.
This Sep. NATO has brought more ships to Bosphorus than Turkey allowed to pass.
Even that it is NATO.
Turkey has just called for the creation of Black Sea countries' organisation.
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Fleet is not what we value in Sebastopol it is the infrustructure of the base. My modest opinion it is the best navy base in the world.
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"More than 30,000 ethnic Georgian fell victims to the brutal repressive regime of the war criminal Kokoity".
According to the 1989 census, 28,700 (29.0%) residents of South Ossetia were Georgians. Are you asking us to believe that 100% of all Georgians were ethnically cleansed during this period? If this is the case, who were Georgian armed forces trying to protect when they launched their preemptive assault and why do the remaining Ossetian separatists need Russian protection?
There are only two possible explanations for your figures. Either Kokoity undertook only the second completely effective ethnic cleansing operation of modern times (the other is Bosnia Srpska, for which Karadzic is currently on trial) or the figures are not correct. If it is the former, why is there no international arrest warrant for Kokoity?
You see my point. If you are tempted to make a political point by massaging the figures, the point is lost. Please share the origin of your statistics with us.
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Alice -
So the Black Sea fleet is in Ukraine, the Baltic fleet is in an enclave between Poland and Lithuania, your space facility is in Kazakhstan and your southern nuclear warning system is in Azerbaijan. Isn't that taking the export drive a bit far?
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Alice,
Re #31, I was thinking more about the Black Sea Fleet as it is upgraded and replaced with the $400Billion refit that President Putin has ordered for all Miltary and Naval forces for completion by 2015?
Some of the disbanded and obsolete nuclear-powered Black Sea Fleet has to be buried somewhere - Abkhazia would seem a good a place as any and then South Ossetia is only a radioactive stone's throw away from Abkhazia!
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Fist of all i never said Georgians made up 100% of South Ossetian population. Your 29% was taken from Wikipedia Web site on South Ossetia, not an reliable and effective way to find out census on population. It does not metter what was the percentage of S. Ossetia Georgian population (it was significant enough to Ossetians to deliberately empty the region from Georgians), and 30,000 Georgians were expelled by force from their villages (which by the way are totally leveled and destroyed) and thats a fact. As for Kokoity war crime responsibilities, that time will come. It took a while until Hutu Interahamwe and other radicals were put on trail and persecuted for crimes. As for my sources:
S Ossetia ‘emptied of Georgians’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7581282.stm
Journey through a ghost village
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586458.stm
Georgia: Satellite Images Show Destruction, Ethnic Attacks
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm
Russia’s cruel intention
In South Ossetia, I witnessed the worst ethnic cleansing since the war in the Balkans
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/01/russia.georgia
Pictures ’show Georgia torching’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7588473.stm
‘Putin has given us an order that everyone must leave or be shot’
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4553499.ece
South Ossetia’s abandoned villages
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7606774.stm
Human Rights Violations by Russian and Ossetian Militants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3tUJ5a9H7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rOL7IoPfVw
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Menedemus, yeah, right, and what if MAII ships won't leave our Black Sea ?
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(threnodio, what's this, really, with "our", we say it is "our" for centuries, and it didn't exactly harm anyone much so far ? Apart from those overly interested in our Sebastopol...
Black Sea fleet fired its first shot since 1943 on 10 Aug 2008. By any standards it is the most peaceful fleet in the world, of which fact we were very proud. All the hard work about going into the Guinnes book of records with this peaceful term now to the dogs.
Black Sea Fleet and Sebastopol are like peas and carrots. One should never leave the other. Together they are much better than when one ventures out, anyone can offend an old homeless fleet !
And maybe Bulgaria is also in the habit of saying "our Black Sea". I won't mind, since their "our" we don't see, it's the other side, sandy beach, all different).
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In this case there are only 2 options left.
The first one we already tried, calling US navy attention closer to own shores / Venezuela. They are not attracted. The attractions don't work, which brings us to the
2nd option, that is of repellent.
The solution, as you understand, is to anchor something deficit, and extremely radiation leaking, by the USS 6th Fleet flagship Mount Whitney, side to side.
Again we need all crawling on water, so far no extras for land use.
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#34 - Menedemus
Sink it all in the Bosporus then nobody can get in or out. It will become the Black Lake!
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#33 threnodio, I am glad you start to understand the layout. Hell know what.
Enough to give a stroke to any fieldmarshal. And with all you have to agree, by the way, and be sweet, and God knows diplomacy is not the gift Russians are blessed with.
We never had to agree with anyone before.
All were ours.
However, with such amount of intensive training in neighbour-relations, the "complete idiot in" course we began taking in the past 15 years,
I think we might soon start to excel.
The very richness of combinations is mind-provoking and encouraging.
I feel confident in Russia's external poliics, how Mark Mardell wrote? "knock me down with a feather!"
The internal ones give much more concern
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Ethnic cleanings are indeed a problem in the region.
My idea was discussions on the re-located and run-aways and those whose houses are burned, like what to do, and where they are to live now, and who will pay - is in the 2nd Sarkozy deal. ? no?
How to count people and nationalities will be a problem, and anyone will get mad in it, but somehow, I guess, it is still possible to count.
Roughly it will be 4 bills to pay, to settle.
Abkhasians whose houses were destroyed by Georgians (in Abkhasia, first 2 wars) place a bill.
Georgians, running away from Abkhasia, whose houses were grabatised by Abkhasians - (in Abkhasia, first 2 wars) - place a bill.
Tshinvalians place a bill. (recent war)
Georgians, whose houses were destroyed in South Osetia, place a bill. (recent war)
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Alice,
Re #36, you know what the Americans are like - make them an offer for their ships and they will bite your hand off to sell you the armaments!
Then you can disband your redundant Black Sea Fleet ships, bury the fissile material in Abkhazia (and S. Ossetia) and you have a new navy, and Georgia "influenced" even before they get to thinking about joining NATO!
Two birds with your Russian Dollar Reserves.
I understand the Americans could do with a few more Dollars at the moment . . . . . . . . . I read something recently about them being Bungling Bankers . . . . so they may sell you the armaments cheap!
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#37 - threnodio
Now that would be a "Sphere of Influence"!
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#35 - LuisDingley
"Fist of all i never said Georgians made up 100% of South Ossetian population. Your 29% was taken from Wikipedia Web site on South Ossetia, not an reliable and effective way to find out census on population."
I did not say you did. I said that, according to the census, there were only 28,700 ethinc Georgians living in South Ossetia in 1998. If 30,000 were displaced, that is the entire population and then some. You are right to say that my figures are from Wikipedia but, in view of your comments, I have looked again. The International Crisis Group states that there was a census by the Georgian government in 2002 which is unreliable because some areas not directly under Tiblisi's control were not actually counted.
There was a census in 1989 by the Soviets countrywide including the South Ossetia Autonomous Region. The figures are in the state department for statistics of Georgia. It may be that precise figures cannot be calculated.
Secondly, I do not question your sources as to the events and I do not deny that ethnic cleansing was attempted, possibly quite successfully. Far from arguing with you, I totally agree that this is unconscionable.
All I am asking is where your figure of 'more than 30,000' comes from. It is a reasonable question as to fact. Nothing to do with opinion at all.
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I'm sorry, but this whole thread is uninteresting and missing the main point: it's not about rights of people or self determination, it's just about raw power politics.
Now lets make few things clear. Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia will never become independent, the greatest independence they will ever experience is the current one where their lands are protected and controlled by Russian army and their leaders are either straight from FSB or GRU or working for them.
Why do I think so? Well, both South Ossetia and Abkhazia would fall in a day to Georgia if there would be no Russian army protecting them. There will be no real peace with Georgia as there are too many refugees from Abkhazia and South Ossetia is strategically too important for Georgia to loose control. The only way there will be permanent peace in the region is that these regions become part of either Russia or Georgia.
Well what is going to happen? Russia and Georgia will make a deal where they promise to resolve the issue peacefully. Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia will be put in administration and control of Russian peace keepers and after some period of time, probably ten years, the both regions are given a chance to vote on their future. The choices in these votes are, 1) become independent, 2) join Russia or 3) return to be part of Georgia. By making this deal Russia will get positive PR as an constructive and peaceful country which translates to more friendly relationships with the West. Georgia in the other hand by committing to a peaceful solution will restore confidence to foreign investors to invest in the country and gets a change to attract at least on the regions to join it.
What is the end result? Abkhazia will join Russia as joining Georgia would mean the right of return to refugees and becoming independent would probably mean Russia pulling its troops and protection away from it. South Ossetia will probably join Georgia if Georgia can make its economy grow faster and entice South Ossetians with their prosperous economy and with a promise for large autonomy. I should also add that Russia really doesn't want South Ossetia as its part nor becoming independent as that would lead to the unification of Ossets and to larger possibility of an rebellion in Caucasus region.
Right or wrong has nothing to do with this issue. Just power politics and deal making behind curtains.
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Jukka_Rohila @ #43
You are, as usual spot on with your analysis but in essence it is threnodio's comment at #5 with flesh added to the bones.
maria-ashot's comment @ #8 gives resonance to the problem of the deal behind doors being unlikely to please some people whilst being satisfactory to others and, of course LuisDingley articulates the disatisfaction of the Georgians whatever the outcome of the power politics decisions.
Alice and I meanwhile, aided and abetted by Marcus and threnodio are choosing to have a bit of fun.
We might as well have fun as the global power politics to which you ascribe the future decisions regarding Abkhazia and South Ossetia will reach those decisions whether any of us like the outcome or not.
You may find the thread uninteresting but actually, we got the idea that this is a global power politics issue early on and the rest has been fun because there is nothing that will change that in discussing it endlessly.
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#43 - Jukka_Rohila
I am sorry you find us boring because you have a different point of view. Or do you? Is this exactly what I have been saying - that the morality does not enter into it and that it is all about politics.
As to your assessment, I broadly agree with you with one significant difference. The possibility of independence is seriously compromised in both regions by their inability to be economically self sufficient. The first question any regional power asks when it is asked to take a newly independent state under it's wing is 'what's in it for us?'
Montenegro - superb property development potential, Kosovo - strategically important buffer state between Serbia and Albania, Georgia proper - international strategic value way beyond its power and major fuel transit country - one could go on forever. But S.Ossetia and Abkhazia? Why would anybody want to pump vast amounts of money in there?
Those provinces are destined to be buffer territories between Russia and Georgia for the foreseeable future unless something happens in Ukraine. Russia will then need a permanent Black Sea presence and Abkhazia is perfect. Forget what the people want. Everyone else has.
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There is a poltergeist working in the thread.
While I walked the dog, couple of my posts that were published became "referred to the moderators".
I think I expressed there a regret we took a wrong prize in the war. A certain place which name starts from S and another, beg. with A, instead of leaving land alone and instead moving 10 miles extra and relieving neighbour sufferers of their home version of a ruler, whose name happens to begin with S.
Can't explain further, we first need to work out a cipher code.
Or maybe it is because I called Ukraine clever ? in making Black Sea fleet a homeless hobo
In this case it is a Ukrainian poltergeist working in the thread.
Anyway, in # 29 MAII, I was replying you, and basically doesn't matter, wanted to say I am not angry with you and not angry today. And that nazi Russia is silly.
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I like all posts threnodio considered a bit idealistic, and Jukka_Rohila's, to give people a chance to re-vote, in 10 years,
and that 1-2-3 plan suggested, that the world introduces new rules, what to do in cases of small nations wanting independence. That threnodio wrote is too much to ask of our world...
thenodio, Black Sea is Black Lake by all parameters already, an "inner sea". With three thresholds to step over to get out - all Rus. fleets other (Nordic, Baltic, Pacific) are making fun of them for decades. Baltic shouldn't be grinning so much, but the other two can - more or less. The idea was it will rust away naturally and expire together with the lease term of the base. Who'd think we'd ever have anyone to fight in our "inner sea". Now Georgian affair mixed up all cards.
(Abkhasia is too flat a coast to be a replacement for the base. No bays.)
Menedemus, the spend advertised I am sure many would prefer to hear it in "items" and "pieces". Like - "we'd build one sub".
Normal course of money is to disapper in financing a yet another army reform, meaning increasing generals salary, increasing their number, building a couple of more HQ buildings, and buying accommodation for the families of the retired officers.
Your idea with naturally spreading Zone of Influence from Bosphorus around is a break-through, plus - a stumble upon (the drowned fleet), and indeed we can spend some cash on acquisitions. But enemy ships nobody buys, I mean, ugh.
threnodio, I'd think Kosovo isn't a classic buffer, btw Serbs and Albans.
(To a heavily biased Rus. view it looks 2 Albania-s now in one Europe.)
But I won't tread upon buffer zones longer, will call it a day?
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Jukka_Rohilla
I can understand perfectly why this thread, in fact all of these web sites are so boring to you. After all, Finland is one of the most exciting places in the world. What could compare? What do you do for kicks, count the falling snowflakes? :-)
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Totally off the topic but very European, Britain has finally taken on an adversary it can surely handle...Iceland. Very frosty relations now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7662027.stm
The trouble with invading and conquering Iceland is...you will only have to feed them. You can't get blood out of a turnip. I wonder if this would mean war between Britain and the Nordic countries who support them. Hey you Brits living near the coast, I'd keep a keen eye out for those Vikings. You never know when they might come back. Eric in the red :-)
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To Menedemus (44) and threnodio (45) :
Sorry, my bad. This is what happens when one is too tired to read all comments and just scans them.
To MarcusAureliusII (48):
Yes Marcus you are quite right. Nothing compares to the excitement of counting snow flakes. Unfortunately because of global warming most parts of Finland wont get enough snow and some parts especially in coasts and southern Finland won't get any snow. Nowadays our winter is more like a fall. This has had a terrible effect on our vodka based economy as the cold and dark winter doesn't anymore motivate to drink. Our traditional liqueur industries have collapsed, the birth rates have fallen (no vodka no sex), the panic is sweeping the country and the president is contemplating on declaring marshal law and giving an ultimatum to the rest of the world: stop polluting or else..
To MarcusAureliusII (49):
I usually haven't criticized individual British politicians, but Brown and his cabinet are handling this crisis very badly.
Firstly, anti-terror laws were used to against a bank. I'm sorry, but did anyone in the cabinet think what message this would send to the markets? ..."Yes, our economy is so near to a total collapse that using what ever means to archive a goal is justified"... That is what the markets are hearing and in this situation where markets have no confidence this action is poison to them.
Secondly by announcing that:
"We are freezing the assets of Icelandic companies in the United Kingdom where we can. We will take further action against the Icelandic authorities wherever that is necessary to recover money."
What they actually did with this statement was to destroy Britain's reputation as and safe place to invest and deposit money. I'm sorry, but how does Icelandic companies relate to Icelandic banks? They don't! What the British government is doing is undermining the financing and operations of healthy Icelandic companies thus deepening the crisis in Iceland and removing any confidence that the markets had gathered. Thanks, but no thanks, if any of my current ventures need financing or expansion to foreign markets, UK won't be the first place to go: the government can't be trusted.
To me Brown is just trying to gather political points from electorate. Actually the same is happening in many countries including Ireland and Germany. Its just furious that these governments backed all savings to 100% with out thinking what overall effects these actions would do to European and to global markets. What the politicians should be is to tell the facts, not throw tax payers money all over and not to act before thinking about consequences in larger scale. Fortunately my countries government at least to this date has kept its thinking cool, recently our finance minister stated that these are free markets and that means sometimes people loose their moneys. This whole crisis is ridicules, its not anymore caused by real reason but by chicken little effect of people and especially politicians and journalists.
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Jukka_Rohilla
I am very sorry to hear about the falloff in vodka consumption and sex in Finland. I can see that this is becoming a national tragedy. While I can't do anything about global warming, I'm sympathetic enough to visit Helsinki personally to see in what other ways I can help. I'll be checking out flight schedules, hotel pricing, and other travel arrangements shortly. Now where did I put my flashlight. :-)
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#50 - Jukka_Rohila
For the first time, I really do disagree profoundly. The Icelandic banks portrayed themselves as safe havens with high yields which were ideal for UK local authorities and others to place deposits. When it transpired that they were badly overstretched, they either nationalised one and wound up the other two banks, guaranteed the savings of private depositors then effective told oversea corporate depositors to go to hell leaving the UK with a bill which could be as big as 400 billion USD.
Doing nothing about it would have sent the wrong signal to the rest of the world. By being forceful and determined in seizing assets is correct. It sends a clear signal that the UK government will support organisations which are in trouble through no fault of their own but will come down very hard on those who have failed in their duty of care. The fact that it is a country not a corporation is no relevant.
I agree it is unfortunate that the government were forced to use law designed for anti-terrorism but the law was not designed on the assumption that an entire country would simply default on its debts. I am not a big fan of the Brown government but, for once, their response to the financial crisis has been positive to the extent that a number of countries including the States are likely to adopt the plan. This is Iceland's problem and they must be forced to face up to it. If that means they have to go cap in hand to Sweden or Russia or the IMF - tough.
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MA, easy with OUR Finland ! Take your greedy American hands off!
There is only 5 hour drive between me and Jukka_Rohila. And only because it is a Russian road. Would be 3.
You might wish to remember another blog, we I think I gave a definition of Russian understanding re immediate neighbours, behind the dacha fence to the left. and to the right.
Finland is a good immediate neighbour.
Hair raises on head when one thinks Lenin could have kept them in 1917. Then they will be the same desolate hole as we are, while by themselves they are an excellent country. best education system I heard in Europe.
and managed all this in the same low-shore of the Gulf of Finland windy marshy ground. same thing. opposite results. different people.
I've never been there but all say it is clean there, organised, all works and all peaceful-quiet and good honest hard-working people.
Kind of boring, to a Russuan eye, true.
But then I aw on Rus. TV a director of their prizon who was saying - please, please, stop running to my prizon, I don't have any places left, wait at least until next year.
The thing is that first Russian who committed a crime in Finland was put into that Finnish prizon, then he returned home and told all friends how he lived like a king like never before in his life, went to a swimming pool, to library, had computer classes, all his teeth fixed by their dentist, computer tomography done and operated on something for which he'd never get money at home even by stealing all he could, and emerged out of their prizon a healthy well-eaten educated man, and the only thing he now wishes is to get back ASAP. So Russians in masses streamed to Finland trying to commit a crime or two, to get into that paradise prizon, and Finnish prizon director is besieged by applicants and appeals sorry he can't take in more.
And it is all true, to top it all. MAII, let's meet by that prizon doors, I set you a randezvous, and Jukka will advise me re their crime book menu, what's affordable for me to commit quckly.
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I'd love for some of Kremlin apologists here explain why Russia supports Abkhazia's and South Osetia's independence (while de facto occupying them), but denies an independence to Chechnya, Dagestan and...
NORTH Osetia which have similar aspirations?
BTW. I'm willing to bet than next Red...er... Russian Army's stop will be oil/gas rich Azerbaijan.
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Alice -
YOUR Finland? YOUR Black Lake (Formerly YOUR Black Sea)? Why don't you buy Iceland? I hear it is going cheap.
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Nanotchka, I do believe you are jealous. I'm touched.
This same story about the prison in Finland was written as a TV parody skit by the off the wall and hillarious American Comedian Ernie Kovaks 50 years ago. He did a skit which showed two men in prison which more resembled an expensive health spa than a real prison. Both were very unhappy because this was their last day and they would be released. One asked the other "what are you in for" and he said "bank robbery, and you?" And the first one said , "Oh I didn't commit a crime, I won this as a prize on a TV quiz show."
Sorry to hear about the Russian roads. Do the road crews pave them with potholes already in them or do they wait for them to develop on their own?
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To threnodio (52):
Your post alleviates many things that are in wrong in many discussion concerning Iceland and the current situation.
1) Banks are commercial enterprises and they can fail the same as other companies. Deposits in a bank are as safe as the finances and a reputation of a bank. If the bank fails, you can loose your deposit. What governments have done to prevent bank runs is to ensure deposits into a certain amount. When you choose a bank where you are going to deposit money, you make a background check and estimate can you truest the bank. In this case communities and companies that used these failed banks failed to do their security analyze and thus they too failed. In market economy if you make a mistake you pay for it.
2) People throw random numbers at air. One news source estimated that if all German banks would fail, the German government would have one million million euros to answer for. I'm sorry that has no meaning as if all the German banks failed, it would be a sign of the whole global economy collapsing.
3) It's not about how much Icelandic banks have debt that is important, but how much assets they have against those debts. Because current finance crisis, market valuation for many financial assets have lost their value, but that doesn't mean that they are worthless, it means that currently nobody can offer a real valuation of them. What the goverment of Iceland is now doing by nationalizing and funding all three banks is to buy time. When the current financial crisis is over and markets gain confidence the assets that the banks had can be liquidated in a better value and thus the whole mess can be straighted out.
4) Other countries have worked with the Icelandic banks and Icelandic goverment in understanding. In example the Finnish branch of Kaupthing asked a 500 million euro loan against its assets so that it can pay deposits back to its clients and gets time to liquidate its assets in time. If other countries can work with Icelanders why can't the Brits work it out with out using anti-terrorist laws?
5) Icelandic goverment isn't responsible for the debts of companies that operate from Iceland. To this date Icelandic goverment has calculated that its better to try to save the banks and to handle the liabilities that they had. What we in other countries should do is so some solidarity to them and help and negotiate with them to solve this crisis. This doesn't mean that we should just give money blindly to them, but to make fair deals with them.
6) We should remember that Iceland's economic fundamentals are still good. They are a country that exports more than imports, they have young and increasing population that also is very well educated. By remembering the facts and working with a long term goal, we can solve this crisis and cool the markets down, and in doing so save tax payers money in the same time.
I should also like to remind you that British goverment had already bad marks on handling its economy. USA alone has not caused this crisis, but its also Britain. Britain can't act unilaterally and with out thinking long term consequences. To this date what the British goverment has done in regards to tame the crisis and handle the fall of Icelandic banks, they have resorted to populist ways and if they don't change their ways, this financial crisis will just deepen.
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#57 - Jukka_Rohila
I agree with much of what you say but there are three points on which we will have to agree to differ.
1. British public authorities have an obligation to exercise due diligence in choosing where to invest their money. It is my understanding that they did so and there was no reason until the facts were known last week, to think that the Icelandic banks would fail. It is not that they did not chose wisely. They were not given the facts.
2. You are correct to say that private bank failures are a problem for the bank, not the state. However, the banks have not failed. They have been rescued by nationalisation. From that point on, the bank and the state are one and the same thing.
3. Your ongoing criticism of the British government's handling of the situation still mystifies me. The UK is a very 'mid Atlantic' economy and the risk of greater exposure was inevitable. However, the government which, in some other respects is a rotten government has actually acted quite positively in the circumstance and your idea that British actions are making a bad situation worse are, in my view, downright wrong.
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Threnodio (17): I don’t think I am asking for a quantum jump of political attitudes worldwide or indeed any change at all. The relative priority of the three principles (self-determination, territorial integrity and 'might is right') I made in my earlier post 13 are enshrined by the UN (e.g. UN Resolution 2625) which says that "every State has the duty to refrain from any forcible action which deprives peoples … of their right to self-determination" and that for the principle of territorial integrity (i.e. the inviolability of existing state borders) to hold the state objecting to border change must be "possessed of a Government representing the whole people belonging to the territory." The Georgian government committed the original sin here by not refraining from forcible action to crush its autonomous provinces. Nor can the Georgian government claim to represent the peoples of South Ossetia and Abkhazia such as to justify its appeal for their own territorial integrity to be respected.
This is not to excuse the military reaction by the Russians of course, which was also wrong, If Russia were wiser she could 'check-mate' Georgia's backers in the West by offering to give the people of North Ossetia a referendum on the creation of an independent Republic of Ossetia providing that Georgia allowed South Ossetians the same. This would really show if she is only interested in protecting minorities in Georgia or has ulterior motives in reconstructing old empires or spheres of influence. (My money is on the latter).
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threnodio, I was afraid you'll miss "our", that's why put it in capital letters.
I think Jukka_Rohila can tell you better on the inter-relation here, just one case of what the awful, awful "West" cannot come to grips with in recognising, Russia & its neighbour in the "immediate" status.
There is always common history going deep backwards. If this is soothing to you in any way, I like Finland, therefore "our".
With the amount of old Finnish settlements around St. Petersburg - I won't express any concern if Jukka says "our St. Petersburg". My dacha train platform is called Lahta. I don't know what the word means. Jukka_Rohila would. My grandma was baptised in a church that is difficult to get to the church register to, to see the entry. The church is in Finland. My great grandad had his office and business registered in Friedrichshavn I think, and shops in St.Petersburg.
Even Finnish Mannerheim we fought so well with graduated in St. Petersburg and had many friends left here, basically fought with his own cohort students.
In the unlikely event you aren't convinced in the Russian rights to say "our" - here is the most powerful argument:
I have Finnish sledge in the dacha. One sits, one behind is standing on the rails by one leg, and kicking the ground by the other !
Mavrelius, pot-holes are pre-planned in the Russian road design, there is a special bureau that works on it day and night.
It also helps greatly to pave roads in heavy rain and snow, at minus 20 a fresh hot road cracks so nicely - dear to see! (To make sure the contract for the same road paving will be re-freshed the next year, it also helps to steal 1/2 of all road ingredients in advance. ) (new Russians ought to get money someplace? where do you think money is gotten from? from salary? as the old bad-luck wish here goes: I wish you to live on the salary! like, "plague! to both of your houses!")
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To WebAliceinwonderland (53):
I'm sorry, we drank the cool-aid, its now in our system, in our blood, in our very consciousness, its too late to change, resistance is futile. Actually I don't know if you or MarcusAureliusII even understand the impact the American culture have had on us.
Lets recollect.. When I was born, my parents straight away ordered Donald Duck magazine to me. My earliest memories include having my father reading the magazine to me and myself looking its pages. When I was just few years old I visited a movie theater many times that showed old Disney Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck short movies. The high light of Christmas was the Jiminy Cricket Christmas show. I also remember eating in McDonalds and loving it. Later on life Knight Rider, MacGyver and Street Hawk continued spreading the message of American culture.
Now lets put some facts on the table... In Finland Donald Duck magazine has approximately 320 thousand subscriptions and it's estimated that over one million people read it every week, thus making it the largest weekly published magazine in our country. Also do remember that there are only five million of us. I should also mention that famous Donald Duck cartoonist are here celebrities. When Carl Barks was visiting Finland to celebrate Donald Ducks 60th birthday, his visit by was recognized by every major news and media outlet. Actually right now Don Rosa is visiting Finland, he was brought here by one of our biggest super market chains to autograph his comic books. He will be tomorrow visiting the town where I live and I'm contemplating seriously on going there, buying one of his books and giving to it my three year old goddaughter as Christmas present.
My generation is not the only one that has been totally brain washed by American pop culture. Already before second world war American culture had arrived here and after the world everything American was popular and wanted. In 50s Finnish got their beloved Donal Duck magazine, but also Coca-Cola arrived and very rich Finns bought American cars.
The thing that I believe many coming from bigger cultures, either from USA, Russia or Britain don't understand that small nations and countries always try to seek, emulate be influenced by bigger cultures. US has been dominating our culture for last 50 years. Russia too has an influence, there are still many here that see no fault in Russia and appreciate all things Slavic. Of course now when we are moving to a multipolar world, influence is seek from everywhere. Now the most interesting phenomena here seems to be Japanese culture. I myself was astonished when news reported many teenagers waiting for rock concert of a Japanese band, or that some teenagers and young people are into lolita clothing style (it resembles and takes notes from Victorian and Rococo era children's clothing).
I think that Finland is neither American nor Russian, or even Finnish. When small nations internationalize, they conserve some of their things, and add with an increasing pace influences from other cultures. If taking influences continues long enough, like in the case of America, some where along the route, the source culture will get critic on not living up to its own cultural standards. Much of the critic and even anti-Americanism in Europe and world can be explained by this. Same thing also happened with the Soviet Union when it invaded Czechoslovakia many Finnish Soviet fans become dissuaded and lost their confidence it forever.
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#59 - Freeborn-John
Yes, I absolutely concur but I have a problem with an implied ambiguity in Resolution 2625 -
"every State has the duty to refrain from any forcible action which deprives peoples of their right to self-determination"
Who or what are peoples? Are the Catalan a people or are they part of the Spanish people? What happens when peoples are spread over several countries? For example, following the dismemberment of Austria-Hungary at Trianon, large numbers of the Hungarian diaspora found themselves in Romania, Serbia and Czechoslovakia. Are we saying that the Transylvanians could simply decide one day to be Hungarian again? There are Kurds in Turkey, Armenia, Iraq, Iran, Azerbaijan and Syria. Are they a people?
Legally, there was no such thing as a South Ossetian or an Abkhasian. They were Georgians. Yes some were separatists - probably most - and that may give them moral status but not legality. I do not disagree with your conclusions but I think we need to need to steer clear of generalised definitions. Each situation is unique. I also fear that those with power will continue to put ethical interests second when it comes to self interest.
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To threnodio (58):
1. British authorities didn't make a very good job on it. The first thing I saw the advertisements of Icelandic banks, my first reaction was 'too good to be true'. The British authorities should have all the information. I believe that in general boom they just disregarded the fact that the Icelandic banks had leveraged themselves massively. This leveraging didn't cause any bells to ring in the case of Lehman Brothers and Bearn Stern.
2. Stockholders are not accountable for liabilities of the company they have invested. What nationalization means is that the goverment buys or otherwise posses majority of the shares. What nationalization doesn't mean that the company become part of the goverment.
3. The British goverment didn't react initially when the Northern Rock failed, they didn't do stark enough actions. What the British goverment is now doing is just pumping money at an alarming rate to their own banks and in the same gaining points from their constituents by being hard to Icelandic banks. What the British goverment failed to do was being hard on US based companies.. Where was anti-terrorist laws when Lehman Brothers went down and transfered all their moneys to US?
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Jukka, if it is American culture that helped you to prosper - very well and wonderful, and Mavrelius can be also proud of something after all reasonable, not silly Iraq.
(Mavrelius, make a mental note to start from Finland next time you start boasting)
However Jukka, if you starts missing your Finnish sledge - they are here in St. Petersburg - I'd keep them for you.
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#61 - Jukka_Rohila
I remember vividly the night the Prague Spring was ended. I was at a Prom concert in London. The Moscow Philharmonic under Kondrashin and Rostropovitch was playing - of all things - the Dvorak concerto. The audience was confused. Some were irrationally taking their anger out on the Russian performers. Others were cheering them as musicians. Rostropovitch was in tears. After the concert, he went to stay with Benjamin Britten in Suffolk. He never set foot in the Soviet Union again. Only when Russia was, as he saw it, reborn did he return in triumph to St. Petersburg. I am sure Alice will remember.
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threnodio, didn't you just yest. quote to someone 1989 statistics of the autonomous republic of South Osetia? before all the mess began?
they'd disagree with you they were never "such a thing as"
abkhasians complained to me as early as 1993, that Gergians put more and more subjects in their schools in Georgian.
Whereas Abkhasia included Georgia in for a century, as a much bigger tsardom, as early as 1200.
examples innumerable, don't want to start all this again.
I know the biggest problem to you in all this seems Russia.
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Jukka_Rohila,
You are defending the indefensible.
If you are suggesting that it is okay for the Iceland Government to nationalise their banks and then only guarantee the deposits of their own nationals how can you justify the fact that innocent individuals, such as a young British woman whom I heard today explain how she sold her flat and placed all of her money into the internet bank but has been told she cannot have her money back from Iceland?
She is a single woman who has lodged 127,000 pounds sterling into the bank in good faith and the first she knew of the problem was when the internet interface told her that access was denied.
She is a customer of an Iceland Bank. Her nationality should be irrelevant but this is not apparently true for the Iceland Governmemt who have taken over and now own the bank.
The actions of the Iceland government are highly immoral if not illegal and your attempts to divert the blame to the UK government is outrageous as this is not the fault of the UK governmemt but entirely that of the Iceland Banks and the Iceland Goverernment with their get-rich-quick schemes to attract inward savings and develop outward investment.
If this Icelandic Bank failure is at the expense of innocent people then Iceland should be castigated and not defended by you - Iceland should simply take up their responsibility and seek to look after all the people who have been betrayed by the Icelandic banks. If they need to go to the IMF or seek loans from other countries then that is the very least they should do.
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#63 - Jukka_Rohila
No, in the case of Lehman Bros. because it is now known that Barclays wanted to pick it up at rock bottom price. In the event, Barclays have managed to cherry pick the good bits. Not a bad days work actually. Nobody was interested in buying the Icelandic banks.
I know exactly what nationalisation is. I also know that it is unacceptable for businesses when they fall under state control to behave unethically whatever their legal rights. The British government has every right to sequester Icelandic holdings in the UK in part settlement of the debt. The Icelandic authorities would doubtless do the same thing if the boot were on the other foot.
Northern Rock was so small in the great scheme of things that it did not appear to signal a global meltdown. In the circumstances, the government did sufficiently well that Rock has had to withdraw some of their better paying products because they are over subscribed and not in line with competition rules. I do not regard that as failure.
What the British government is doing now is bailing out the banking sector before it fails rather than later. It is several steps ahead of what the rest of the planet is doing. Perhaps if the Icelanders had done the same thing, we would not be having this conversation.
Either way, we cannot agree about this so there is little point in going any further.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (64):
Actually the secret receipt for prosperity is very simple that is why I originally skipped it. The receipt has few simple ingredients: stability, market economy, investment to infrastructure, investment to health care and education, rule of law and internalization. If you start adding these into any country, it will start to develop and in time becomes more advanced and prosperous. Even Russia will go this route, if there is any luck Medvedev will start for real this process.
But if we go back to sledge... thank you for your kind offer to keep the sledge in safe. If the climate goes hay wire and we get, again, an ice covering all Nordic countries, I might need it.
Now jumping into your other message...
Lahta, its definitely originating from Finnish, but it has no meaning in modern Finnish. Quick search around the Internet thought confirmed my belief, it means bay, and the term bay in modern Finnish is 'lahti'. Now more interesting question is why there still is a place called Lahta in St. Petersburg.
Your grandmother was probably baptized in church that was situated in Finnish Karelia. In the second world war Finnish had a very organized retreat from Karelia which included evacuating all official documents of the state and the church. Now, you don't have to come to Finland to access those church records you can do it in the Internet. The Finnish Karelia databe foundation has gathered and published all church book in at their service ( http://www.karjalatk.fi/katiha ) which is free to use. Unfortunately the service is only in Finnish so you either need a Finnish-Russian dictionary or somebody who knows a little bit of Finnish. I should warn you that if your grand mother was an orthodox then the database might contain translation errors and there definitely are errors as people have had to make sense on what has been written to the books. Also the records as of this date only go to year 1907 as Finnish data protection law says that you can't publish these kind of information that is younger than 100 years. The good news is that if you can track your grand mother, there are real chances that you can track her family's history hundreds of years. The oldest material is from the end of the 17th century.
Also, in Finland we a database being kept by family names. Our Population Research Center (Väestörekisteri) has an Internet service where you can search people by their family name and in return you info on how many people are living with this surname and how many people have been registered dead on this name. It might help you find out if you have any living relatives.
On a last note, for a tease, if you know that any of your family had deposit boxes in any bank in Finland, then those boxes with a big certainty are still in possession of Finnish banks. My friend told me that he did an inventory of deposit boxes in one major Finnish bank office in Helsinki and they saw quite amounts of jewelry, gold, old bank notes, stocks and money that were deposited by Russian aristocrats and upper classes that never returned to collect them. Of course by now there probably is nobody living who has any recollection or information about them, thus they probably stay secured in those deposit boxes for times to come.
And yes, when I started to think there are many things that even I like with Russian culture, the tradition to offer bread, pickles and vodka belong to the upper part of that list. And yes I'm serious, if somebody else is wondering, the pure taste of an food item and a drink is very refreshing and enjoyable.
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To WebAliceinwonderland:
I forgot to add the net address to the Finnish name database. Go to Finnish Population Research Centers pages at http://www.vaestorekisterikeskus.fi/ choose English and then choose Name service.
To Menedemus (67):
I'm sorry for the plight of the woman in question and for all those who have lost their deposits, but and this is big but, this is what happens in market economy. Banks are not safe and they never been safe, if a bank goes under, you lose either all of your money or some of it. That is why people check where they deposit, and when they have bigger sums than the goverment guarantees then its the job of the saver to invest it into different investment instruments to safeguard it against bank collapse, to safeguard it against inflation etc.. If one fails at this, one is in a danger to lose his or her money, as simple as that.
Now the Iceland's goverment guarantees deposits up to 20887 euros, the rest of is not guaranteed and thus Icelandic state has no legal nor moral obligation to cover what goes over this. As our minister responsible for finance inspection noted, "depositors knew the risks". I would also like to add that in no other country there has been so vocal voices against Icelandic state and banks than in Britain, maybe you should check your position? After all, this is a market economy where we are living, with all the benefits and risks so get used to it.
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so many forums keep forgetting where is what (Malc. expressed an idea Mark keeps adding on to keep us away from gloomy reflections on int'l crisis)
threnodio, I also wondered where Mark managed to interview the Irishman, like, what ? he's got a Georgian business as well ?
I think simply going into the war-zone Mark made a back-up of stories in case he won't return back ! (may be it was recommended in that war correspondent survival training he's just done)
:-)
I think it's a back-up kept in case of comms interruptions.
______________
About Rostropovich can't say anything that you don't know already, have to ask mama.
Since you love music, can tell a story of our modern popular musician, Gergiev. Director of St. Pete Mariinsky orchestra, and theatre art director combined. After Gergiev directed Sleeping Beauty in London recently (full version for 3 hrs, not short ballet), he flew by private jet smth straight to Tshinvali, to meet his Mariinsky orchestra (they got there through the hole in the mountains) and they did a great concert on the ruins in the open, candles and all. That was back in Aug in war, because Gergiev is local South Osetian, so his orchestra had no choice but to pack and go.
So far so good, all here extrapolated ab the unusual setting, and the choice of pieces for the survivors (Tchaikovsky 5th and 6th concerts, Shostakovich's 7th symphony) (heavy), was a night discussion on radio.
Now, one man called and said he won't wonder anything Gergiev does. Said he was travelling in mid Russia in a desolate spot, with his extremal tourism club friends other. They got lost in the forest and wandered btw lakes, eaten alive by moscitoes "size of a bird". Stumbled around and wandered 3 days until saw an opening in the woods. There he said he had a shock of his life. Around the shore of a small forest lake there sat in full taxedoes the whole Mariinsky orchestra and played to itself. Without a single audience. Gergiev directed, opera was long, they didn't dare to interfere, so simply sat on the ground as well and listened. Said bird-like moscitoes continued to eat the musicians, but they pretended neither new arrivals nor bity ones are there. This was "Life for the Tsar", Glinka. When it was over they got explanations, and were resqued together with the orchestra, there eventually came a local who led them all out to the road and buses. It was a 100 year anniversary of the opera, about the man who was caught by the Polish army, pretended he is scared, and led them all to the swamp, instead of showing the road to the tsar (first Romanov, Michael. 1613). As this all took place exactly in this swamp, Gergiev thought his orchestra should get a feel of it, and also led them to this swamp.
So the chap who called radio said - ha! Tshinvali! after what I've seen - this orchestra is fit to any war zone in the world.
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Jukka_Rohila @ #70
That is a very cold-blooded assessment of the way that Iceland views the situation of individual citizens. Perhaps Iceland is aptly named if that is the cold-blooded view of the inhabitants and their government.
My understanding was that the Iceland Premier and Finance Minister were agreeing to guarantee the deposits and savings of Icelanders up to the full amount of their savings and deposits and not just the 15,000 pounds sterling equivalent in Euros which was previously the the full amount guaranteed. This would mean that an Icelander placing 127,000 pound sterling or equivalent would be assured of refund but that foreign savers investing in the Icelandic banks with the same sums would not be guaranteed the difference but only get back 15,000 pounds sterling equivalent.
That is what I find immoral, what Gordon Brown has declared illegal and what you see as being acceptable.
I am sorry but I find that attitude and behaviour despicable.
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#71 - WebAliceinwonderland
I have seen Gergiev work several times. He is a fine conductor but his S.Ossetia thing did cause a bit of fuss in England because he is also music director of the London Symphony Orchestra. Some people were not very happy. Still Valery and Vladimir are old friends so we let it pass. I saw some of the concert on TV. It just seems a shame that it takes a war to get the orchestra to go on tour. Perhaps next time, you could invade somewhere with a concert hall?
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I've more than a few recordings of the Dvorak. Rostro with Herbie the Nazi Von K is IMO by far the best. I've got another he recorded that isn't so good. Yoyo Ma on CBS is a disappointment, rather feeble. Fournier is good. I've heard it many times live. It's always a special treat. I don't allow something as unimportant as politics to get in the way of enjoying something as important as music. In my house, it's the consensus that the Dvorak is the best concerto ever written for any intstrument. The Rooskies seem to turn out a lot of great musicians who leave and rarely go back for more than a relatively brief visit from time to time. Horowitz, Richter, Kissin, Rostro... And some great composers. Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky. If life is so wonderful there Nanotchka, why don't they stay?
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WebAliceinwonderland: Judging from the picture above, it looks as though at least one woman may have dined with Mark (on the left, with chin in hand). If those four American ships with warheads have them aimed anywhere, perhaps they're not aimed at Moscow to the north, but rather at a different place, possibly a similar distance to the southeast ? Even without Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Georgia still shares a border with Russia. Cuba is a world leader in nickel production, as well as rum and cigars.
threnodio: Perhaps the Black Sea fleet is primarily defensive ? Abkhazia may have similar property development potential to Montenegro, should peace ever be waged there.
MarcusAureliusII: I can certainly think of better ways to die than waiting at a Ground Zero.
Menedemus: Consider the numbers of Icelandic bank customers in Iceland v. abroad, and how many of each had balances above 15,000 pounds (or its equivalent in euro, or kronur [keeping in mind the krona inflation rate]). Perhaps at this stage it is simply a matter of survival for Icelandic banking that has prevented them from extending the guarantee to their foreign customers ? Prior to the recent meltdowns, was it common for well-off UK bank customers to keep account balances above the government-guaranteed threshold ?
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To Menedemus (72):
My thinking or views are any more or any less cold blooded than the functioning of our capitalistic driven market economy dictates. Some times you lose, some times you win, that is the name of the game and if you start making exceptions by your feeling then you are essentially in a road leading to communism.
I think the point where I and you differ is the media that we view. In Finland there hasn't been critical voices against Icelandic banks issued by the main stream media nor by the government, in Britain instead it seems that both the government and the media have gone crazy. Let me put some facts in the table...
1) The administration of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are directly responsible for the financial crisis in the UK. In their watch the bubble formed that first took Northern Rock, then Bank of Scotland and now other banks are in the same danger. To me these both seem as miserable failures.
2) Next UK parliament elections are very near and the Labor is in great danger on loosing the election.
3) The government of UK has been the most vocal in this crisis. In today's morning paper there were article where the British government officials were saying that if a global finance package is not negotiated in this weekend the whole global financial system may collapse. I'm sorry, firstly that's not true, and secondly even if it was you never say it aloud, never ever.
4) The goverment of UK has been the only one to use dubious means in this crisis, the only one that went overboard and used anti-terrorist laws.
I'm sorry, but to me this things only tell one thing: Brown and his cabinet are so scared that they will use fear and doubt to confuse the voters, they try to act as the saviors when in matter of fact they are only deepening the crisis. I'm sorry, but if I would be British voter, I would vote for Tories even thought I despise their EU views. The current administration is a scam.
Now if we go back to banking and back to Icelandic banking crisis, the thing that nobody remembers is that the administrators have made promises, not legislated new laws. The promise of saving all the saving of Icelandic depositors is as dubious as the one made by German chancellor Merkel. What they say "okey, in practice we will find some way to save your moneys"... Now in the case of Icelandic deposit holders that is very easy, Icelandic goverment can just buy the deposits of a failed banks with Kronas, thus deposits are being paid inflation and devaluation of their currency. In the case of foreign deposit holders, well, do they settle to Kronas or do they settle to the guarantee that is legally offered to them.
Anyway, as I said before, this is market economy, if you don't want to live in it, change the system to communism, if not, live with the consequences.
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Jan-Keesop @ #75
I would not have any problem if the rules don't change or the goal posts don't move.
Be I an Icelander, Finnish, Irish or British and I lodge my 127,000 pound sterling or equivalent in an Icelandic Internet Savings Bank - I take the risk that all is not well and that I may lose all but some of my money.
I accept the risk and if the bottom falls out of the financial markets and we ALL lose some or all of our savings then that is the risk we ALL take.
What went wrong here with the Icelandic handling of the situation was that the three Icelandic Banks have gone belly-up and been nationalised.
At that same moment, both the Icelandic Premier and the Finance Minister guaranteed ALL the deposits to 100% for Icelanders but kept the guarantee to the 15,000 pounds sterling level for all OTHER nationalities.
The Icelandic 100% guarantee and self-preservation of their own nationals savings was wrong in principle. They should either have kept the guarantee at 15,000 pounds sterling or equivalent for ALL or raised the guarantee to 100% for ALL.
It should also be said that this problem was not just a bellyache for the British as it does not only affect British savers, it affects Irish and other Continental Europe savers. Comments have been made that it is only the British who are complaining and that is not correct.
It may well be true that the British are the very best at whingeing and/or complaining - I would not dispute that claim!
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74 - MarcusAureliusII
Rostropovitch is far and away the best Dvorak interpreter I have heard in the flesh but the recorded field is very competitive. I agree about Fournier but - if you can live with the sound quality - try his early version with the Vienna and Kubelik. Masterful.
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The main Icelandic banks were, until recently, given AAA ratings for financial security. Now you can argue that the assessors were wrong, you can argue that BoE ignored warnings as far back as July, you can argue that public money should be invested in the domestic economy not sent overseas. What you most certainly cannot do is blame the investors. They chose bank deposits precisely to avoid the wildly speculative investments on offer elsewhere. Of course you accept that investments can go down as well as up. That is the first line in all the small print. You should not have to plan for the whole bloody system going belly up and losing the lot.
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To threnodio (79):
Don't we ever learn? Enron was given AAA ratings almost until its demise. Credit ratings are only a fancy way of saying "at this time, at this market, with this information, we truest this company so and so". After Enron I and many others lost their confidence on company ratings. The only way to measure a risk is to take a holistic approach, gather the facts by yourself and calculate the risks.
I also object very strongly to a notation that you can't blame investors, you most certainly can. When ever you have more money, you never keep it in one place and you never keep it all in one form, you always diversify. Yes, some people don't know that the bank can fall, currency can loose its value, a country can go bankrupt, but that is no excuse, not knowing is not an excuse, ever. If you don't know what do with your money, ask your local banks, they would have gladly diversified your money into different holding ranging from bonds to mutual funds.
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threnodio's 73, I like this royal "we let it pass". Training is the key. :-)
Gergiev has also called Anna Netrebko and Dmitry Khvorostovsky under his banners, and both said "with all my heart". Voices, even stationed abroad for the sake of the despised metal, are not in the mood to refuse Mariinsky director when he asks for a favour. Anna Netrebko was filmed leaning gracefully onto Tshinvali mountains with various waterfalls in the background, saying "any next day". Finally she's asked to be excused by flying back and giving birth to a baby.
What's Khvorostovsky's explanations nobody yet heard, as he was not heavily pregnant.
The matter is not Vlad-Valery bosom friendship, but that Gergiev is a Caucasus man first, and man of the world second.
He is colours of South Osetia, who have only 2 famous people - Stalin and Gergiev.
As one is very well dead, all their stakes are on Gergiev, and they won't understand him not joining up with co-patriots in war. Homeland calling.
As the saying goes, blood in the Caucasus is not remembered for decades, but for centuries. They all have very good memory.
Which is the only real bad disaster for Russia in the whole affair.
we already have one mean Chechnya for neighbours, now there are two of them, and no amount of EU joining or? what was Jukka mentioning, reading Donald Duck in future Georgia - will not fix it.
There is a vast Osetian comminity in St.Pete. and in Moscow. Gergiev not giving that concert ? really, better way for him would be to shot up.
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threnodio
I have a beautiful recording of Fournier playing the Dvorak with the Berlin Philharmoniker under the baton of Szell. He also plays the Bloch Schelomo and the Bruch Kol Nidrei on that recording. Haven't heard it in many years, maybe I'll give it a listen soon. (DG 429 155-2) I've also got a recording of Rostro playing great works for cello and orchestra (2 disc set DG 437 952-2) He plays among other things the Tchaikovsky rococo variations but not the Dvorak Rondo on this one.
Nanotchka, I was surprised they didn't publish my earlier posting and now I am surprised again that I did. I didn't mean to alarm you. I would say the chances of us being vaporized by each other's governments now are very remote. During the height of the cold war, we kind of expected it. It was interesting seeing a PBS episode of "American Experience" the other night about the life of Ronald Reagan. Evidently during the cold war, your government thought Reagan was as wacko as we thought Khrushchev was during the Cuban missile crisis. Funny how the Soviet military fell hook line and sinker for the American arms build up and the SDI (starwars) that helped bankrupt the USSR which caused its collapse. It looks like they are about to fall for the same gambit again as these weapons they will buy are not only useless to them but divert your money from things you actually need very badly. But if the worst happens, unless you live out in the country like I do, you will be close enough to ground zero to avoid all pain and suffereing. The American nuclear war planners ask their generals just one question, do you want the target reduced to boulders, rocks, pebbles, or dust? I'm sure their Russian counterparts ask their generals the same question.
Jukka_Rohilla, think of American culture as the revenge our forefathers who were uprooted or in one way or another forced to leave the places they came from have inflicted on the world. We have no choice in the matter. We didn't plan it that way, it just happened. What could be more devastating? For example, your country manufactures millions of cell phones, I think Nokia. You are in a very private place doing something very private where you do not want to be disturbed and when you least expect it....bling...bling....bling...bling and you must answer it immediately because it is your boss (or worse your spouse) and you will catch hell to pay if you don't. So you are not only a victim of it, we actually get you to manufacture the instrument of it you cannot live without. Hahahaha, a fitting revenge but one of only countless ones we've inflicted on the world. Will that be fries with your Big Mac? :-)
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#82 MAII,
re your last paragraph, I guess you Americans haven't yet worked out that a cell phone can be put in silent or vibration mode or even ignored when you've forgotten to switch it onto one of those modes, there is even a switch it off button. I also guess you in your wonderful American dream world are so fearful of the repercussions of daring not to answer your phone when your wife rings that you enjoy upsetting anybody in earshot with your feeble excuses to whatever chore your master (i.e. wife) wants you to do next. The Europeans over here whose ancestors didn't run away to the new world because thy couldn't make it in this part simply ignore it or say we were in a reception black spot, and you'll be surprised how many pubs/cafes have no reception these days I'm told.
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Buzet23
Amazing how ignorant of America you people are. In America a boss can fire you if he feels you have not performed your job well. Unlike say France, we do not have jobs for life here. When they snap their fingers, you are often expected to jump to attention, salute, and say yes sir, what will it be sir. And when there is a divorce, the wife gets the house the husband gets the mortgage payments. The wife gets the car, the husband gets the car payments. The wife gets the kids, the husband gets the child support. The wife also gets the alimony, the husband gets the legal fees. Anything left over in his paycheck he can keep. In America, women rule. That is why Barack Obama will win the coming election to become president. So when the cell phone rings, you'd better answer it or Barrack Obama will be the president of a lot of divorced men.
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This thread is so telling about Georgian's future. We start off by rattling the battle gear, then comfortably move on to problems at home. Georgians will be left to work out their issues for themselves. Perhaps, that is all for good as it will force them to make rational and pragmatic choices based on their own desires and capabilities.
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#84 Mavrelius. Now, that was a nice read for the night.
Even my internet modem lit up again and began buzzling in unison. So, no need for passports for Charlstonians, you are managing nicely by yourself.
Seriously, I can imagine the atmosphere.
I worked for 2 US companies here, and was fired twice. The first one managed to cope with me for 5 years, the second held less than 2. But then, I am also getting more disagreeable with years. And I don't remember holding my tongue once, or doing what I don't want to do. In fact, now I wonder they kept me.
The only consolation was every time I was fired with excellent paragliding provisions. And I keep fond memories of both organizations. Especially the first one.
And of course it was called differently, but in essence - I didn't leave myself.
US companies in Russia are not famous for what you describe - in fact - and I agree
with the majority here - are considered quite free and generous in atmosphere.
(May be Russia influences them - how quickly foreigners get russified here - dear to look! )
What is considered by Russians a plague - this is German companies. There the spirit goes absolutely against the throat.
But I saw something of what you describe in US branches, that is, mother-companies.
Once charmed a CEO visiting Moscow and he decided his US branches will absolutely collapse if I won't go teach mrkt to his own mrkt people. Excellent idea, esp. that back then I had one Kotler book on mrkt. getting dusty in some unidentified corner, that I ever read (and that one I read no further than first 10 pages). But I had this idee fix about skating in the Rockefeller skating rink once in my life, so I embraced the idea eagerly. In US I noticed 2 things. First, that all goes hysterically quick (my schedule was one city per day; in 5 days I lost any track where I am - airport-office hotel-airport-officve-hotel-etc.), secondary that yes, unlike Moscow office, people are scared of bosses. I was nearly getting a red carpet myself every time. Because CEO said that I am clever and important - so I were, automatically.
Anyway. Here US companies are good.
What do you do with them at home?
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Marketing in Russia is easy. All you have to know is who to pay and how much. The rest will happen for you automatically. Right?
In America we have something which most Americans knew about 40 years ago but probably most don't know today even though it still exists. It's called "The Peter Principle." It says you will keep being promoted until you get a job you can't do. The way we say it, "you rise to your own level of incompetence." It seems to be a universal truth.
Russia sounds very bleak. No Seinfeld on TV. How do you ever manage? Reruns of old five year plans? Here are some highlights from a few episodes, some bloopers that were cut out, etc. I think it was recently voted the best TV program ever on American TV. I'll bet few Russians ever even heard of it. I don't think it would translate well. Maybe I'm wrong about that, let me know if they show it there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T0C8x57StM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcpEqF9AIIE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9o7_r63zLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orN0kw1qsJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk8cDkf2isY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YuilLVEULA
and again the soup nazi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFIVNwiq8ls
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Mavrentsia, you are wrongentsia. About enough to pay to who. It's a competitive market and all within the industry are more than willing to pay their way in.
Peter has a surname but now I forgot. And many more principles.
These apply to UK better.
US patented is Dilbert's Principle.
When I worked for the 2nd US company, had to apply as a handbook. Still lies someplace at home - all referenced and in pencil marks. I think I was the first one who not only read it and laughed but introduced into life, page after page.
youtubes are lost on me, in the better life. my PC doesn't speak to me.
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Here it is Nanotchka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
Yes it is real. I've seen it in action everywhere I go. With the general level of competence falling, the dumbing down of society as we say, the level at which people reach their level of incompetence is decreasing. We are arriving at a point where even the simplest of tasks cannot be performed correctly without at least 10 attempts by most people.
Last June I flew nearly 3000 miles from Orange County California to Newark New Jersey in roughly 5 1/2 hours. The last 18 inches took 20 minutes because the pilot turned off the engines before we were close enough to the jetway to get it to the door and they had to wait for a ground crew to tow the plane the last 18 inches. BTW, this was on my all time least favorite airline, Continental. Of course I've never flown Aeroflot.
Too bad you don't have Seinfeld. Crazy view of life. Would you believe Jerry Seinfeld turned down ten million dollars per episode to keep the show going one more season?
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Georgia has always been ready to ensure freedom of Ossetian and Abkhaz people only within the borders of Georgia. Did not you see during the war that these places are the patchworks of population and Georgians are the aborigans here not the minorities.
If you are European or American please ask your mothers or grandmothers who was Prince Matchabelli. He was born in his family Estate Samatchablo. Bolsheviks renamed it to South Ossetia.
Georges Matchabelli could never return home after the bolsheviks devastated his land and came here to US and then he and his wife Princess Narina Gilli launched the parfume company Prince matchabelli. He died in his Manhattam appartment in 1935 from pneumonia at the age of 49. He was the first ambassador of newly independent Democtatiic republic of Georgia to Italy and from Italy he moved here with other government members. Some are burried in france some here in America. Thy lived with the hope that they would return home one day, but it did not happen.
Empty bottles of crown shaped Prince Matchabelli bottles are sold from $50 to $500 today at village stores and on ebay. Vintage ads of his parfumes are still very popular.
Please type in Prince matchabelli in The New York times search engine and it will give you about 300 articles from 1921-1935 about Georges matchabelli and his actuvity here togather with other fellow georgians, russians and American elite. It will also tell you how he and other Georgians together with russian nobelities celebrated independence of Georgia on May 26th, at 5th and Park ave. a popular restaurant "Caucasian Eagle"
As for Abkhazia that is also an undisputable land of Georia with its ancient Georgian Churches and Monastries and 400,000 displaced population, very hard working and rich one. Abkhaz and Ossetians liked communism more because they had more benefits from the state. Georgia is working on a better social system to give such benefits to everyone. Since georgia is standing on democracy path and they do not like it it is not the fault of local Georgians. Because I did not have a job in georgia, I simple came to America. I did not take the Georgian land with me and I did not devastate the local population.
Besides, if thousands of Ossetians live peacfully in Georgian capital and almost all parts of Georgia why they can not do so close to the border? If 2000 Abkhaz live in Adjaria (western Georgia) and are very happy to live with Georgians there why not in Abkhazia on the other border with Russia?
International Law prohibits such clueless claims. EU urged Georgia to accept Chechen refugees and they, like Ossetians once did when Mongols were after them, settled down in Pankisi Gorge. Now I am very much afraid that this will also create a conflict zone for Georgia. Minorities have right to integrate with population bu not to grab the land of the country who once saved them from enemies.
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ingag11,
You would know better of course, where there lives who, and in what patch-work combinations.
I think in Soviet times absolutely all lived peacefully, in all the republics, all minorities and majorities, simply because were afraid to revolt or/and sort out internal disagreements. Nobody applied force to each other, but central power - to all.
Then it seems the regions where one nationality gathered a kind of a critical mass began striving for independence.
Adjaria, by the way, seems no exception.
Wasn't there a huge scandal, several years ago, when Adjaria announced independence from Georgia? There were clashes, and arms, definitely some action at sea, and all prepared to fight. Clearly remember that Adjarian leader asked Kremlin for support and military help to help him separate from Georgia. But Georgia acted by itself, organised a successful coup in Batumi and change of power, had Adjarian man replaced by another clan or something. Without military action, took Abkhasia back by internal measures.
I know the Adjarian leader then ran away to Moscow and urged Kremlin to help put him back to throne, but as there was no major military action in the region, Moscow didn't go for it. And I forgot where the unhappy Adjarian + Co ended up eventually, I think that clan is now in Turkey.
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WebAlicein Wonderland
Darling, yes there was a bloodless revolt in Adjaria, because 100% of population wanted democracy and the leader Abashidze wanted communism. Look at Adjaria now. How beautiful it is. Is there any better place to spend summer than Batumi, the city which borders Turkey? What else do we need, freedom, friendship and having good life.
Do you wanna bring back the time when we were scared to talk on the phone that local KGB could have been listening to us? I wanna say what I want and even if I'm wrong I wanna be free to express my opinion; so do all Adjars (they're georgian of course)
By the way this is how Georgia is we all belong to different Georgian tribes. I'm half Imeretian (West Georgia) half Megrel/Abkhaz (also West Georgia); By the way George Balanchine was also from my tribe -Imeretian and carried a painting with him all the time telling people about it :) ;
Shevardnadze is Gurul Georgia (West georgia too)
East Georgians are Kakhs (Kakhetians), mid Georgians and (Kartlelis) and mountain Georgians are Khevsurs (where some 19 cent. German anthropologists believe nordic Europeans originated), Pshavs, Tushs, Svans and so on. You like it or not, we are one nation, we have one language, one history, same territory and same future. We are who we are and what we are and if someone does not like us it is not our problem at all (well it is, look what happened to us in August);
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Inga, thank you for the explanations where is who; you know the way it is developing Russians may soon forget all the details about Georgia and what will stay is only Okudzhava to listen to. I've never been to Batumi but I guess Kobuleti is close enough?
(Excellent swimming place, but as you are aware, a girl can't walk there out beyond the health resort territory gates.)
In Tbilisi my parents used to have friends living in Atoneli street (not far from the central market), where they sent me once to spend a month to, to learn about Georgia and Tbilisi. But this was early Perestroyka times. This is about all I know of Georgia - and I guess it's more than an average Russian who normally only knows the sea-side. Plus all written in Data Tutashhia - for general orientation and to get the spirit.
I, at least, have had extensive training how to make the walnut jam, how to make a 4-year old only son in the family eat his dinner, know that all the girls in the family ought to take music and piano lessons, and what nice small old churches you have turned often into artists' studios.
This is all fine and wonderful, but it doesn't help us to sort out the August affair!
I know the view you've expressed - that you genuinely feel Russians are allright, and it is their again-communistic government, who deprived Georgia of land.
This was very gracious of you, by the way. But there is more to it.
It has been indeed a popular stand here with many people - we are good, it's only our Kremlin that is bad. We live separately from government, have no connection or ways to influence it, people separately, government - separately. It is kind of true but for how long can one say this to himself? I don't want to dis-own what Kremlin did to Georgia.
Of course Russians didn't plead our governemnt - like, give us South Osetia and Abkhasia - we can't live without it! Far from it, no one was interested in them. But I approve that army interfered, because blood is blood, and Tshinvali was attacked, and they were murdered. They shouted Help! it is in the Russian nature to come to help. People en masse here approve Kremlin action in that, nobody thinks about any "political consequances", simply - someone is being killed, asked for help, so , what? to turn a blind eye?
As you wrote yourself, Georgia is skilled in political intrigueing (otherwise it wouldn't survive till these days), there is this diplomatic skill - so why all of a sudden you get mad and apply brutal force?
Abkhasia and SO have been 15 years under heavy Moscow protectorate, you know that. Attacking them is the same as attacking Russia, like, your Saakashvili said "At you!"
We are not chicken by character here, and not very, how to say, you know, careful, so what else did he expect in reply, that Russia in best Christian traditions will put on another cheek? Anyway this post is getting too long for one.
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WebAliceinwonderland, I'm impressed on how much you know about Georgia.
I do not mean just Russian politicians by the Soviets; I mean all of them. We know that Giorgadze was in Abkhazia during the war. The soviets demanded exchange of an imprisoned Soviet general Dumbadze during the war. They are in every former Soviet country you know. And they are trying to come back. How can they come back we are not tzars and nobelities today so that they could use this as a reason to rob us.
Anyway, in order to restore peace we need to return all the refugees to their own homes and guarantee their security. The rest will be worked out slowly for many years to come.
The main thing is that the Russian church recognizes teritorial integrity of Georgia. It was a powerful statement by the Russian church and how can we not be gratful for that and how can we call Russian nation enemy while it is the Soviets of every ethnicities who have resurrected.
The war has changed the Georgian nation very much. Everything materialistic lost its value. During the war I was talking to them but I had a feeling they could not hear me. They wanted to be left alone. You probably do not know all the details of the war. My eyes have not dried since then...It is very hard to see helpless children and elderly suffering. I saw a 90 year old man crying of the pain he was still feeling not because of the wounds he sustained from torture and beating by Ossetians but the fact that his almost 90 year old wife was also beaten by them and he could not help. This is what we are talking about. There are hundreds of cases like this documented.
One thing I do not understand is that is that how poor the Ossetians are under the Russian rule that they even had to loot the harvest of Georgian villages, food supplies and everything Georgian elderly would never imagine someone could kill for...
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#90 Prince Matchabelli?
I think Prince Matchabelli was no match for his fellow Georgian - Generalisimos Iosif Dzhugashvilli (Stalin) who assured the region's ethnic shift.
But what is more remarkable is the fact that Georgia's mere existance today is creditted to Russia's defense of its fellow Christian Orthodox nation - Georgia - from being wiped out by the Ottoman Turks in the early 19th century. Otherwise, Georgia today would be another Islamicized state within Turkey.
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Alex,
And if not Georgian Djugashvili, Russia would truly be wiped out of the map. How many georgians died in WWII, how many Gorgians died in your clueless Aphganistan war? And in 1968 how many Georgians students were executed by your soviet Government just because they stoof for Georgian language and refused to accept Russian as the state language. They understood the importance of this ancient language not just for Georgians but for the world, and you see now how many scientists are studying it. If you help people because you wanna take over them please do not! Now you see Gazprom in Alyaska that's not a good sign for America.
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Alice and ingag11,
Thank you both for your more recent comments.
It has been a fascinating read and very enlightening for me.
Lenniek wrote at # 42 under Mark's Blog Entry "EU-Russia Tensions" that "Non-Russians will never fully understand Russia."
But you both help us Non-Russians towards that big thing - understanding Russia and Georgia just a bit more than being places on a map!
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Thank you menedemus! Here is the youtube link where you can lsten how a young Georgian man with Ossetian origin sings a khevsuretian folck song. I got goose bumps when I listened to him. Please tell me what you think about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqvWmp_sOeQ
I heard this song hundred times but nobody can sing it like Dato (David).
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Ingag11,
you very well know that the only people on the Earth (apart from Georgians itself), who understand importance and treasure of the old Georgian culture heritage is Russians.
To explain about your royal house intricacies
and all the charming culture details to the new world you are in - will take exactly another 500 years. If the "West" will take the angle that you are precious to preserve.
Russians are spongy and open by nature, naturally curious like cats, to us the interest in foreign cultures comes without a strain, but this is not always the case everywhere.
That is why Russian church, who is very historical (I mean - Orthodox, literally, strictly keeping to history preservation, in detail, to the degree that all modern church services are done in medieval Russian, and all texts are in medieval Russian) (so that modern Russians don't understand own church a word of what they say ! when attending) - is on the Georgian church side in the conflict.
These 2 churches never quarreled, unlike Saakashvili and Putin, both live in the year, I'd say, approx. 1545, and are in perfect understanding of each other.
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PS
A minor detail like Putin and Saakashvili
neither Russian nor Georgian church simply doesn't take into account.
They are focused on eternity, you know.
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ingag11 @ #98
I wish I could understand the words but the performance is compelling and worth the seeing. Thank you.
Looking at the people to Dato's left his song was resonating with them so I can imagine that the words are of tremendous meaning and sung with feeling that they clearly bond with.
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That is right Alice. The governments neither understand nor can stand each other, unlike the church.
Georgian partriarch Illya the 2nd preaches on every mass that hatred is not our way. We never hated anyone and will never do. He is practically a spiritual healer for Georgians right now and he always mentions that the Russian church is with us too. Now when people are so confused about their future the only place they feel safe is the church and you see thousands of people attending regular and holiday masses. We did not have this before.
Alice and Menedemus thank you for your interesting comments!
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In response to #96.
Ingag, I don't want you to gag on my words but in response to your comment about Russia's historical mistreatment of Georgians - that's nonsense!
You mentioned Soviet-Afghan War and tried to convince audience that Russia would not exist if it weren't for Georgia. Nothing could be further from the truth. During the War in Afghanistan, Georgia comprised a tiny minority in the overall military effort to prop up a Soviet satellite. Even the Russians did not comprise the main effort in fighting mujihadeen. The overwhelming minority in that war composed of Ukrainians.
Contrary to your grandiosly delusional beliefs Georgia has not been an awesome, powerfull kingdom in the past (as evidenced from King Erekli II's pleads for Russian help in casting out Ottoman Turks); neither is the current Republic of Georgia an almighty, awe-inspiring power as evidenced Georgia's Western-trained forces routed in August.
By the way, my father speaks Georgian fluently as he lived there for many years. My wife is Georgian. You are far removed from reality.
I can put forth an argument of Georgia's historical mistreating Russia by giving Iosif Dzhugashvili under whose rule more Russians were systematically exterminated than any other nation. But, I'm not going to engage in foolishness.
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#103 Alex,
If you carefully read "georgevsky treaty" you will see that it was about frienship and assistance to each other. Ekaterina the Great clearly underlines in it that this treaty did not in any way revoke sovereignty of Georgia. I think it was a very progressive document written with the respect to International law thanks to Ekaterina the Great.
I am not downsizing Russia in any way, I am just defiant on its downsizing us. I know that you saved us and it is thanks to Russia that Georgia survived the Turkish massacre. Every Georgian knows that and painfully looks at the recent war because what Russia stood once has been destroyed by the current government. That is why I brought up the issue about Russian nobelities mourning Price Matchabelli in 1935. I am not making this up. I found hundreds of articles in new york times archives. What I stand for is that Russia, which is so rich in human capital should be represented by its intellectuals, sober, sound people, not by ludicrous jokers like Zhirinowski. You have power and you should wisly use it.
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Bsides, Alex jugashvili devastated Georgia much stronger than he did Russia. Marxist-Leninist theory stemmed paranoya, hysteria against anything that could have threatened the communist ideology. Stalin executed not just Russians and other soviet nationals, thousands of prominent Georgians only because they were prominent and their advanced thinking was not in line with the communist ideology. I always wonder why during the soviet period our nations have not created anything substantial. I came to the conclusion that the communist ideolody killed the virtue.
If it was an advanced theory why is that our rural aras are so backward not like any developed country in the world. You look at our elderly and you see they have not been taken care of.
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#103 Just one more thing: this has nothing to do with speaking Georgian or having a Georgian spouse. Giorgadze, Abashidze are Georgian too. Lavrov's father for example is an Armenian born and raised in Tbilisi. I think people who have ties with Georgia have more grudge against it than other citizens of Russia.
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#103 "grandiosly delusional beliefs"
I do not think so. I checked everthing ingag11 was talking about and everything is true what she was saying about Prince Matchabelli. I actually bougt one bottle of the wind song on ebay after I read her notes. The history behind this bottle is very fascinating.
Besides, Alex, I did not know Sasha had a bipolar son. Where is so much agression coming from? Is this how are you planning to save the face of Russia?
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AnastasyaL,
Sorry, I missed up on this discussion. Who is Sasha with bipolar son?
by "grandiose dellusions" Alex_t2000 didn't mean Prince Matchabelli, that his story is a dellusion or anything. I don't see the need to check what ingagl11 says at all, I absolutely trust her to know Georgian things better. Overall I think each of us speaks her/his mind. That then the pieces of the whole picture don't meet up together, the pieces, I mean - what to do. World is more complex than we see it.
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#108 Even what she said about Stalin. Yes he was a tyrant, dictator but he was the major player along with Roosvelt and Churchil. Is that a secret? I see Alex is in denial, but you cannot find a Ukrainian or a Georgian who has not lost someone to the WWII. And Afganistan war was a nightmare: coffin after coffin arriving to both of these countries. I am not talking about Russia, we know that there were more Russian troops because it is simply 5 times as large as Ukraine and 100 times as large as Georgia. I think rejecting contribution of these two countries is more delusional than anything. Russia has a "god comlex": It is the one who rules, it is the one who should save the world, it is the one who should punish and it is the one who should rewrite the international law and change the borders.
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I think he meant "an overwhelming majority", Ukrainians, not "minority".
"Overwhelming" minority - cannot be.
Ab the "God" complex.
Honestly, I think it is good we are now thinking we are good. Even if it is a temporary hallucination I wish it lasts longer.
If the West succeeds in convincing Kremlin they are the bad guys - there will be no check from that moment on. "Ah, we are bad? So we will act like the bad ones do!"
If you think it is a joke on my part - it is not.
Zhirinovsky keeps saying non-stop on TV - "they want to make us agressors? they haven't seen an agressor! don't know what it is! let's be the aggressor then - and show them! We'll border with Turkey immediately!
If we are "an agressor" anyway - what is to lose? Let's act like one!"
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Omg, Alice is that what he is saying now? You know what that means. So, you guys want more blood. You do not know what an aggressor means Alice? Who are you fooling? What makes you so greedy when you occupy the fouth of the planet. If pople like you believe inZhirinowski, but not in Lebedev, Kasyanov and Ilaryonov, there is no hope then. I considered you as an intellectual as someone I would like to have a conversation with, even your ginrerly notes were fun to read, but it turns up that you hae been covering up your true feelings.
As for me maybe I was a little rhetoric, overly confident, but I always stood for peace. I think you guys have lost the sense of value of a human life, maybe because your poulation has grown so large, like China's one.
If you are falling for Zhirinowski's calls it's time to evacuate Georgian population as soon as possible.
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Russians clearly are cooking something: Today's rustavi2news: "Russians threaten to explode cemeteries 27.10.08 11:21
Russian occupants have decided to construct a military base in the village Pichori, Abkhazia. With this on mind they are depriving the local population of their lands and houses, devastate their nut plantations.
Today, the Russians required from the locals to remove the graves of their relatives from the Pichori cemetery and bury them somewhere away from the territory, otherwise they threaten to explode whole cemetery. The occupants have given deadline until 16:00 today to dip up the coffins."
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Ingagl,
I know you are alert, and we all know why!
but stop getting so suspicious.
If you want to read only "good for Georgia things" - wrong number. either you want to know the reality or - fairy tales somebody else will tell you, not me.
Nobody takes Zhirinovsky seriously.
He failed all elections there were for president, for governors, for councils, absolutely all there were in the past 15 years.
If he was wanted by powers in a substantial position - which is with land and people, a province - not a voice in the chamber of the parliament - bare voice - with no weight behind, mind it - he would have won an election. rest assured.
Zhirinovsky has an own party of "liberal democrats", keeps for years a certain set of admirers. As he puts it himself - "our party programme - is to support anyone who happens to be in Kremlin. In order to stay a party." As cynical and open as that.
Of course he is needed for something. Otherwise we'd never see him on TV once.
I think he performs 2 functions.
a./ he is a party who will always vote along the ruling party. And there is a deficit in those. because we have one leading party again, in case you forgot, and by modern democratic standards a country should have several.
where to get them? with Zhirinovsky - you can always count there are as minimum 2 parties in Russia, one ruling and one "opposition" (Zhirinovsky) - that always agrees with the ruling one. He says nastiest things not about Georgia only, but approx. about everything he sees. Criticises Kremlin non-stop.
However come vote time - for a law in the country, or an investment - you know how they vote daily, the parliament - his party voices automatically become on the side of the ruling one.
He says one thing - and votes for another! Simultaneously! And when asked - how can you - simply replies "such a man I am, you better get used to!"
2./He is a nice background for the ruling party. Against this background - anything the ruling party does - looks divine and wonderful. How to explain to you - he is a joker, playes "a bad policeman." First Russians listen to what Zhrinovsky says, like about this bordering with Turkey immediately, and say "Jesus Christ!"
Then you see your normal president, who says normal things - and we say with a relief "Thank God! That we are ruled by Medvedev! Not by that ultra-nationalist disaster."
What Zhirinovsky really thinks of things - nobody knows.
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Ingag11,
I've also heard - from a Georgian opposition newspaper, that Saakashvili got temperamental several days ago and gave a good beating to his Defence minister. Chased him through the offices and threw a jug of water at his back, ruining the clothes..
So what?
why didn't I hurry up with this news here, any ideas? do you think I am lacking on such news?
I saw a Georgian interviewd on TV yest., in Tbilisi. In that school that is the real campus for Georgian refugees, where there are real homeless and hopeless crowds, not the mock up in Gori favoured by Western media. Of many things the man said I can now remember one: "If Germans had Rustavi-2 they'd be sure now they won the war."
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I did not know he beat the minister, but if he did, i should not be saying this, but maybe he had a reason. I criticize him too when he is wrong, but I know that he did not want the war. Why he would bring Steinmeir all the way from Germany and Rice from the US to hold peace talks.
About Rustavi 2, hmm I am not sure if they are that bad, but as for Russia Today it is a direct outpost of Russian government and even Posner said it was enough of Russia Today's ludicrous reporting.
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In response to #110
Overwhelming minority: a population comprising a predominant quantity over all others none of which are in majority.
Anastasiya, a beautiful name and Ingag...I see you gals are phantastic at pen-paling each other. I must admit that it can be hard to see the forest because the trees get in the way. You seem to criticize Russia at every corner - no less than John McCain, except you gals are smarter and I can see that. It's best however to get to the basics and the irrefutable fact that "Georgia exists because Russia saved her from Ottoman Turkey." There can be no "but's" about it. Now, please continue criticizing Russia kiddos.
Thank You,
Alex
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I bet you remind that to your wife three times a day. :)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Blumenbach writes:
"Caucasian variety - I have taken the name of this variety from Mount Caucasus, both because its neighborhood, and especially its southern slope, produces the most beautiful race of men, I mean the Georgian; and because all physiological reasons converge to this, that in that region, if anywhere, it seems we ought with the greatest probability to place the autochthones (birth place) of mankind.[7]"
Source:
Blumenbach , De generis humani varietate nativa (3rd ed. 1795), trans. Bendyshe (1865). Quoted e.g. in Arthur Keith, Blumenbach's Centenary, Man, Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland (1940).
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