EU-Russia tensions
The leaders are all round the table and Mr Brown's new-found confidence has show no signs of abating: he says that he not only wants a new global agreement on the markets and regulation but thinks this is a good time to push for a trade agreement, after the failure of the Doha round.
In a separate room the foreign ministers are meeting and their main topic will be whether to resume talks about a new partnership and co-operation agreement with Russia. The talks were called off after the war with Georgia.
The UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband tells me on his way in that the talks in Geneva should get under way first and in "due course" address this issue. Most of his colleagues may be keen on getting the ball rolling now. But Mr Miliband may be interested to hear that, according to Georgian officials, the talks in Geneva have collapsed. The Russians did not turn up for the opening session, they say.
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Well, well - the Russians did not bother to turn up!
That just about sums up the respect in which the EU is held by Putin and Medvedev.
The EU Council of Ministers should simply forget about the Russia-EU Trade Partnership deal and move on to discuss more important issues - Global Events and circumstances and thus priorities have changed . . . . unemployment and loss of manufacturing capacity in the Global Recession that is going to be a more serious problem for the EU than was Georgia's dispute with Russia!
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Do I detect a disconnect here? How is Mr.Brown going to kick off a Doha II unless Mr. Milliband talks to the Russians? Or maybe they are keeping Jackie Smith up their sleeves. If she gets her way, nobody will need to talk because everyone will know what everyone else is thinking anyway.
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Mark, your photo editor should be admonished as the featured politician is unrecognisable without a banana.
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Well, it's lie about russians not turning up. Who believes Geogian tie eating officials these days? Do you, Mark? I would not.
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#1 - Menedemus
The Georgians say the Russians did not turn up. Frankly, I do not believe it and I will wait to see what someone authoritative has to say before comment.
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MaxSceptic @ #3
Yes, the banana would be a good idea.
We could recognise the banana as a sentient being but the politician would still be unrecognisable!
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Europe needs to show some spine in its relations with Russia, not just for the benefit of the EU or even of worried Eastern European countries, but in the interests of Russia itself.
Russia is a very immature political entity which wields major political, military and economic power. Like it or not, she will be an great power throughout this century.
Accordingly, we need a Russia that understands how to defend human rights, how to behave constructively in international relations and how to operate as a democracy.
With America in disgrace after the Bush era, the EU is the only mentor qualified to lead Russia in the right direction. In this role, there are times when Russia will need to be encouraged and times when she will need to be disciplined. The war in Georgia means this is a time for discipline, as encouragement would send entirely the wrong message.
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David Milliband is a laughing stock. Someone just should put him away. That is what comes into my head when i see that picture of him.
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So now we know. The Russians were 1 hour late. This is because their delegation included Akkhaz and S.Ossetian representatives to which the Georgians objected (This reported in the Georgian Times website).
Didn't turn up indeed!
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Less-than-zero @ #4
threnodio @ #5
Please accept my apology.
Yes, it appears the news that the Russians failed to attend Geneva was premature. The BBC does report that it is the Georgians who stated the Russians did not turn up.
However, I think it is premature for the EU to consider signing the Trade Partnership Deal with Russia as they have (a) not fully complied with the Sarkozy Peace Accord and (b) there is no firm evidence, as yet, that they have entered into the Geneva Talks with an honest intent to reach an agreement with Georgia.
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punctdevedere -
I agree but it would be nice if EU also showed some spine dealing with US!
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punctdevedere #7 and Less-than-zero #11
So now that the EU has given up on "instructing" the US on how to conduct its affairs, it is should undertake the re-education of Russia. Why do I sense a war looming in this. So the EU objects to Russia's aggressive foreign policy, it human rights abuses at home, and the threat it poses to someone's security abroad and somebody should do somrthing about it. Funny, that's how Americans felt when Saddam Hussein was still around and the EU except for Britain ultimately walked away (the governments of Italy and Spain were forced to by their voters.) Now would be the perfect time for the US to pull out of NATO, remove all of its troops, shut down its military bases and tell the Europeans from here on out they are on their own in meeting the challenge of their own security. Russia is not the threat to US security the USSR was and there is no reason for Americans to spend any more time and money or put any of its soldiers lives at risk to defend it. This is Europe's job. Of the two Presidential candidates, Obama is more likely than McCain to take this very position.
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MAII
Now I know you think Obama is "the one!" LOL
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MarcusAurelius -
I smell some sarcasm in your comment though in my opinion the situation you describe would be perfect for everybody. Or o you imply that russia is actually a threat to europe? Of course it isn't.
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I need to look up local news on that
(I mean, "look up"! rather - spread my ears wide as elefant - listen to the "Echo of Moscow" radio channel.
They are Kremlin's main headache in the country these days (after Politkovskaya and Solzhenitsyn are both gone).
Mostly all Jewish channel, and somehow their intelligence quarters are such they are always informed best.
Regular news here say there were 2 meetings in the agenda this morning, with an hour's interval.
Russian delegation deliberately refused to enter the hall of the first meeting, picturesquely stopped, as was equipped with the Abkhaz and SO guys, who were not let in.
So Russia had its way and for the 2nd meeting Abkhas and SO presidents (sorry, what we call presidents) were let into the hall. And the 2nd meeting took place. Only after 10 minutes of its duration there was nothing to discuss. Because this time Georgian delegation demonstratively turned around on their heels, unable to sit in the same room where Abkhas and SO are.
The 2nd meeting had USA delegation (who decided it can survive SO and Abkhas presence), UN, EU, OSCE and Russia.
But the key thing in it, namely, Georgia, was missing.
So looks again, Russia did wrong then Georgia did wrong, and there is no end to this.
Lavrov says "we have warned USA, UN, EU and OSCE that in case Abkhas and SO guys won't be included into the talks - Russia will not attend." But until the last moment nobody knew will they be allowed in or not, all were kind of hysterical.
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For pity's sake . . . who do you need?
The Russians, the Georgians, the EU (as monitors and lead negotiators) and the UN (because Ban is chairing). Abkhaz and SO envoys should book into a nice bed and breakfast because they will be needed eventually. Everyone else can go home . . . now!.
I know Geneva can be very pleasant at this time of year but this is ridiculous!
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(I notice that the blog is now reporting html tag errors instead of simply rejecting the post. Well done mods - nice one)!
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Is not the whole thing pathetic?
The situation is simple as 1+1=2. Russians were pushing for direct negotiations between georgians and abkhazians/ossetians since long time. At least since their draft UN Security Council resolution submitted in early July. Georgians stuck to the position "those guys are ours to do what we want".
Georgian's principal stand was unwillingness to treat abkhaz/ossetian breakaway governments as parties to the conflict. They were supported in this by the US and UK, which is why the July resolution stipulating the non-use of force between the PARTIES was not even considered.
Since then georgians acted to show their point - "restore constitutional order", which from their point of view is disturbed by the breakaway governments. Russinas, on thhe other hand, were doing all they can to make abkhazians/ossetians parties to negotiations with Georgia. They tried to push this line throughout all documents and negotiations. Georgians, on the other hand, "principally" stuck with their refusal to talk directly to their separatists.
What I wonder is why such position would be supported by the EU, who always insisted that russians have to talk/negotiate with their own separatists. Except for 2ble standards.
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Sorry, "Echo of Moscow" doesn't discuss Geneva at the moment. Instead they are busy beating the dust out of the Russian military reform.
Today's announcement that 16,000 officers will be fired.
(Echo generally approves, but says too much. By their calculations it means there won't be 1 left. and way too many angry unemployed military skulking around.)
And Medvedev's announcement that we'll build 6 aircraft carriers.
Because the navy chap in the studio says he doesn't want 6, doesn't want even 4, but when president in Russia off handedly mentiones something - we'll get it.
But seemingly what General HQ plan or wish for is of no importance, because it was announced they themselves will be cut by 2/3.
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#18 - Egor_NY
That is not the EU's position.
The EU are acting as 'honest brokers' attempting to ensure by monitoring that there is peace on the ground. They are also seeking to act 'facilitators' enabling the principal parties to come to the table. I am sure the EU would have no problem with Abkhaz and SO representation. Indeed they are not stupid. They know that ultimately they have to be involved.
The problem is a procedural one. The Georgians will not entertain Abkhaz and SO delegations. The Russian solution - quite sensibly in my view - is to include them in the Russian team. You are right that the EU has insisted that Russia should talk to their own separatists because that is an internal issue. But these are not Russian separatists, they are Georgian separatists. The talks centre on the future of the separatist regions and cannot proceed to a conclusion without their involvement. The Russians are right about this and the EU knows it.
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Less-than-zero @ #14
You wrote, "....russia is actually a threat to europe? Of course it isn't.
I sincerely hope so as I value my friendship with Alice of St Petersburg!
However, Russian troops in Georgia (2008), Czechoslavakia (1968) and Hungary (1956) does seem to set some sort of recidivist behaviour for Russia . . . . whatever the justification, mitigation or political expediency, Russia seems to want to be a good neighbour but cannot quite keep that good behaviour going for too long before resorting to violence and intimidation every so often and invading another country?
And of course, there are the internal disputes such as with Ingushetia or Chechnya - when Russia imposes itself on breakaway enclaves it does so with impunity but there is always the risk that what is good for South Ossetia and Abkhazia should be good enough for Ingushetia or Chechnya or any other oblast that wants to break away from Russia domination and gain independence?
Small rebellions can quickly become wars and conflicts that start to impact on relationships with other European nations as we saw with Russia and Georgia!
I sincerely hope Russia is not a threat to European peace but you might need to convince me before I am sure that Russia is no threat?
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Menedemus, re the EU Russia Trade agreement, what to do.
I think Kremlin agrees with me in this. what to do. good if yes. if not - what to do.
Like somebody said "take what you want, but don't forget to pay for it."
we took. now are kind of prepared, to pay.
Jesus Christ how costly come independent countries these days!
and what's their hilarious luck I wonder that two at once got such a roof as Russia, in the mood of standiing for them to the end.
many dream about own countries for centuries, are 10 times worth than SO and AB, and never, never get it. some stars stood up in their way definitely.
I mean, most who achieve independence, fight for it, shed blood, negotiate internationally, have heaps of problems, scandals and embargoes, fight internally between siders of this mode or that mode - and in SO and AB case - they basically got it on the saucer with the blue rim. well. Tshnivali paid dearly.
But otherwise all the negative on their behalf is and will be absorbed by Russia.
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Menedemus I will walk Jolly Ro and think ab your to be or not to be.
There is indeed this virus of expansionism in us. What's bred in the bone. Otherwise we wouldn't end up with still the largest land territory of all world countries. even now, stripped of all previous, royal, and communist, acquisitions.
And a careless hand in considering immediate neighbour's dacha kind of your own land.
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#21 - Menedemus
Ingushetia or Chechnya are Russian territory and whatever happens in those regions is entirely an internal matter. While there are fewer tensions than there were in the past, either could blow up again but any action taken, however draconian, would not necessarily signal Russian expansionism.
The Georgian enclaves have an entirely different status and their future will to some extent show whether Russia is indeed in expansionist mood or if they genuinely believed that their intervention was necessary.
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Mark ,
everybody expects from the european correspondent to give full picture - not based on what one side -georgians say.
or the famous georgian hospitality transformed you into their permanent
mouthpeace?
as to Miliband - he is a caricature of the foreign secretary, he will better off by joining boys scouts
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... and even our dogs are called not "blackie" or "Coco". but Jolly Roger
Menedemus good news is I think in our lifetimes Europe is safe. Now the mood is to experiment being "like the big ones" (well. rather "like the small ones") - to behave, to learn rules how to hold fork and knife at the European table (sorry! didn't mean it to be a joke! happens by itself), I mean Russian elites seem to enjoy being let in finally to the common eh? table again, to get acquainted, or - re-acquained. there is a Columbus feeling of a discovery that there is Europe over here, and it is an inspiring thing.
And for you by the way as well, you've also clean forgotten previously separated by the fence and by the buffer block that there is Russia over here.
So there is a lot to do in this re-acquaintance process after the break of the past century. For you it might feel like a new fighty kid on the block, one would expect some bruises and kicks exchange while the yard dust settles down.
This should keep us busy I think for 30-40 years without radical moves.
Personally England (Menedemus I am sure you'll be glad to hear this) is safe as all Russian elites are there with houses and kids in schools and money and England will be protected like Sebastopol (I mean. well. you know. jokes seem to appear by themselves). I mean nothing should happen to England otherwise where would all rich Russians wish to emigrate to? where we are living is unlivable, and if you spoil all the livable places by yourself - where to wish to go to?! The only foreign language all here know is English, and USA is very uncomfortably places to fly back and forward to and fro. 10 hrs. in the weekend. no.
With Germany and France we have sorted relations long time ago. Been to Paris for 2 months, returned back. Been to Berlin for 60 yrs, returned back. Simply boring and not inspiring to start all over again in well-known places.
In the long run, yes, Russia needs expansion. We are like bicycle that can't stand. What MAII and Jukka advice - pay attention internally, do smth ab yourself, for crying out loud! - can meet only with polite smile. We cannot concentrate on quality. Improving life in the own yard - a joke. Not interesting. No one will move a finger. We never did. A man is not born to live in comfort. What for - I don't know, but def. not in order to improve own yard to perfection. Lick out the roads, add shine and gloss.
We'd be more interested in quantity.
This is bad news, Menedemus.
The good one again is that Russia looks North. We are inspired by the places with many many place - and little little people.
(EU qualifies very badly).
But unlimited unexplored vast white distances - wow. Plus it fits our commodity based model, as threnodio has noticed.
There are minds now turning in the Northern direction, to conquer that. Not West. West will be a good place for an exhausted skulking around Russian to retire to. East is blocked by water and China.
South? yes. tricky, though, with muslim countries.
North - excellent, by all parameters fitting.
it's a European double-safety cushion, may I notice, Menedemus, that Russia focuses on the Northern vector.
Unfortunately this contradicts US interests.
But we will see.
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threnodio @ #24
You lost me there in your rationale?
Your comment seems to suggest that Russia is at liberty to supress insurrections in Ingushetia and Chechnya (which it has done!) but that it is also at liberty to interfere in the internal territorial disputes of Georgia? That does not seem to be legitimate, defensible or moral.
I am not sure that, "... The Georgian enclaves have an entirely different status..." legitimises Russian intervention?
You wrote, "Ingushetia or Chechnya are Russian territory and whatever happens in those regions is entirely an internal matter."
But is that not quid pro quo exactly the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia?
You could have written, "South Ossetia or Abkhazia are Georgian territory and whatever happens in those regions is entirely an internal matter."
Clearly Georgia has no plan or intent and has proven it has not the miltary capability to interfere in Russian territorial disputes.
The fact that Russia has taken robust action to interfere in two Georgian internal territorial disputes does seem to me to be intimidatory and aggressive.
Perhaps I misunderstand you but I cannot see how Russia has not put peace at risk with its interference in an internal Georgian territorial dispute?
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Alice,
Re. #26
Unfortunately, if Russia does seek to go beyond its 200 mile agreed territorial Arctic boundary and develop the Arctic further north then it will come into dispute with Canada directly, Norway directly, the US through Alaska directly and I believe Denmark(?) through Greenland directly.
The potential natural resources under the Arctic icesheet are coveted by all five nations and there simply has to be an agreed carve up of the Arctic territory beyond the 200 mile limit.
Anything less and you immediately have the scenario for conflict between 4 NATO countries and Russia. This makes it a concern of the EU as many EU nations are also within NATO.
As we all understand, it is the resources that are wanted and not the lands of the Arctic and thus this should give all the claimant parties an equal starting point for any discussions.
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#7 In response to: "...the EU is the only mentor qualified to lead Russia in the right direction." - LOL :-) How about Russia leading the EU?
#11 "I agree but it would be nice if EU also showed some spine dealing with US!" - LOL EU cannot even stop their own societies from being Islamicized through illegal immigration.
#12 "Russia is not the threat to US security the USSR was and there is no reason for Americans to spend any more time and money." - Please tell this to brainwashed American politicians still locked in the Cold War mentality.
#21 "I sincerely hope Russia is not a threat to European peace but you might need to convince me before I am sure that Russia is no threat?" - Why don't you study up on Russia's tumultous history. 2/3 of Russia's existance has been spent in warfare. In fact the most intense conflicts in recorded history took place in Russia and Russia was fighting in defense. Remember both WWII and War of 1812 included entire Europe engaged against Russia, even 12,000 "neutral" Swiss guards attacked Russia under Napoleon. I'm not going to mention every nation that attacked Russia because they are too numerous.
But it is worhty to note the trend that takes place before an alliance invades Russia. Initially, the organization - whether under Napoleon or under Hitler - creates puppet states and surrounds Russia and then attacks under a peace treaty in pure surprise while disguising itself to fight for a superior noble ideology.
Now, realizing that the West is in fact the aggressor, you should make it your job to convince Russia - which lost over 30 Million of its lives in defense of West's attack - that another western alliance such as NATO is not planning a surprise attack on Russia once again. Since end of Cold War, there is no need for NATO to exist and so why is this organization bent on expansion and encirclement of Russia today?
Notice that even the Communist Ideology was imported into Russia by the West during World War I with the aim of causing a massive civil war and destroying Russia from within.
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7
Also we need an EU that understands how to behave constructively in international relations and how to operate as a democracy.
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Menedemus,
re the North, yes, I know, other claimants, and preliminary ? sense of strained relations ? is here already.
However Northern passage seems still the most free way out.
You don't wish us feeling boxed? :-)
We are the most claustrophobic people in the world.
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21 Medenemus
Our government (I mean Russian) i so confident at the momemt because it is supported by the absolute majority of population. The people would never support Europe's invasion! So the government will never do anything like that. Georgia is a different thing, i'm a bit tired of explaining.
But the point is - Russia will never never absolutely never attack any European country! So don't see us a threat and let' all live in peace.
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To Alex_t2000 (30):
Oh, please, read history before commenting...
The cold war was the result of an aim to make an international communist revolution. If Trotsky had won and Soviet Union assumed the position to only build communism in itself and not to spread it around the world, there wouldn't have been any cold war.
The second world war was as much result of Stalin and his expansionist plans. Hitler and Stalin divided eastern central Europe, Baltic's and Finland to their respected interest zones. Soviet Union was the aggressor here. We should also remember that in respect to Nazi Germany attacking Soviet Union, Soviet Union wasn't just an innocent victim. The main reason why Soviet's suffered immense casualties when Germans attacked them was that they themselves were positioned to attack positions. It should also be noted that Soviet Union received from US immense material help in the time when it most needed it, without US material help, Soviet Union could have collapsed.
The first world war was in case of Russian empire more of an matter of pan-slavism and an idea that Russia's destiny was to be the representative and protector of all Slavic nations. Without the idea of pan-slavism it can be questioned would there ever have been eastern front in the WWI.
The Napoleonic wars were wars of the elites. It was more about new contender, Napoleon, threatening the old monarchies of Europe. In that conflict it was France against Britain, Prussia, Austria, Sweden and Russia.
Your view is that Russia for all the times has just been a victim of others ganging up on it. It's always somebody else. Why don't you take a hard look on Russian's history and see that Russia is just not victim defending itself, but just a normal power that has intervened and played games with other powers.
I would also add that your view is an harmful to Russia. In this global and networked world its not anymore about power blocks threatening each others but about the conflict of networked global world and world that hasn't joined the global network.
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Menedemus, also, papers are nice, but property has this tendency to end up in hands of not "who has rights for it" but who wants it most.
By "wants" here I mean not high-way robbery, but readiness to sacrifice.
Do you see people of Canada, USA, Norway and Denmark or whoever will pop up more - ready to allocate a heavy piece of the national budget for conquering the North.
To work there permanently, to inhabit it, to take the risk and pain and deaths and live in modest means for the sake of a big goal? This kind of old pioneering spirit that North will take, and it will take heavy toll no doubt. I don't talk about a couple of scientific-research ships, or an expedition landed onto the ice to spend a winter, or a dozen of oil platforms at sea. The idea is not to simply add up a dozen of extra miles to our allocated zone.
We see it more like, what was called here "conquest of Siberia". Now there are many applicants to our Siberia. And the gas in your kitchen stove might be from there. But first someone needs to, you know, explore it and make understandable.
With papers for the North, yes, problematic.
We have applied for int'l acceptance that Russia doesn't end where it seems, but that its continental shelf stretches - uninterruptedly - hell knows where all the way up. It is about land, Menedemus, not oil only. Oil to extract there - is so much expensive a fun - that it becomes not even golden but platinum every drop of it.
And what ? No one but us in the world doesn't even have the equipment to check that underwater shelf is un-interrupted !
If it's proved by 3rd parties it is, Northern pole is Russian. Other claimants aren't eager to go check, 3rd parties have no means, the matter seems frozen.
To ease the discussion here is the Northern pole anecdote.
In the Russian army there was introduced
a new kind of troops: "Frontier-guard-diver."
Quantity: 1.
Duty: To stand on the sea bottom under the Northern Pole and guard the flag.
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Jukka you seemed so reasonable before but with the 2nd WW I am sorry you seem to have your facts wrong.
I can only explain it by the Russian-Finnish war and the fact that you were theoretically neutral but practically German side in the war, "allowing" - oh of course! very unwillingly! German positions on your land to hold Leningrad in siege.
My concierge has been a child in the concentration camp for Russian children in Finland. A correction facility for slavs. The most senior one there was 13. The junior ones were 5. For their sake, of course, children collected in nazi occupied Norh-Western Russian lands. Lived in an empty spot behind the wire. Shoved bread in through the metal net, like wild tigers. Kids were as plumpy there as in Buchenwald. Guarded by Finns. No Germans.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (36):
Well, lets see where we disagree...
Nazi Germany and Soviet Union made an non-aggression pact, that included then secret additional record where Finland, Baltic's and half of Poland and parts of Romania were given to Soviet Union's sphere of influence. In the end Soviet Union blackmailed and later annexed Baltic countries to it. After Nazi Germany attacked Poland, it attacked Poland too and took its share of it. With Finland the same tactics that were used with Baltic's didn't work and Soviet Union attacked Finland by staging a border conflict (shelling of Mainila) which it used as an pretense to attack Finland.
Do we agree with this?
Now with Continuation war the facts are: 1) Finnish government negotiated with Nazi Germany on their attack to Soviet Union, 2) Finland agreed to join the war after the German attack, 3) Finland was used to transport troops to northern Norway, 4) After Germany's attack to Soviet Union, Soviet Union viewed it to be also with war with Finland and thus sent bombers to bomb Finnish cities and 5) After bombings Finland declared that it was again in war with Soviet Union.
Do we agree with this?
In continuation war Finns quickly reclaimed region, Karelia, that it had to cede to Soviet Union after the winter war. After this Finnish troops occupied rest of the Karelia as an buffer zone against Soviet Union. Of course if Nazi Germany would have won the war, that area would have been annexed to Finland as it contained a numerable amount of Finno-Ugric tribes.
Do we agree with this?
While occupying Soviet Union's part of Karelia, Russian speaking population was indeed isolated to concentration camps. This camps were however not death camps. Their purpose was to isolate Russian speaking population to avoid guerrilla warfare from them and to avoid Russian partisans on not attacking them. Do remember that Russian prisoners of war were seen as traitors in Soviet Union and people in occupied areas didn't have much higher ranking that POWs.
And yes, in many concentration camps people suffered from malnutrition including children. This is not anyways new information to me or to rest of Finns. There have been various studies and books written by Finns about east-Karelia concentration camps. These camps are seen more or less as an mistake and treatment of their prisoners as not satisfactory. If Germany had won the war, these people would have been released, but they would have been required to become Finnish, that is for sure.
I should also remind you that Finnish Russians, Russians that were citizen of Finland along with other minorities including Tatar and Jewish descended citizens fought in the Finnish army alongside with the rest of the country. What this implies and tells is that the Finnish government didn't discriminate based on language or religion, but its decision to isolate Soviet Union citizens to concentration camps where based on other rationalities.
Do we agree with these?
My main point is that Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were the main aggressors of the second world war. They together caused the whole ordeal.
Do we agree with this?
PS. My grand mother, that I never had the opportunity to meet, was an orthodox Russian from Finnish Karelia, a Finnish citizen, that meet my grand father during the war and married him after the war. I mention this to just make a point that second world war wasn't just a conflict of Russians against their opponents. It was mainly about Soviet Union and Nazi Germany fighting which can slave their own and other people.
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No, Jukka, we don't "agree on this".
We, Nicolas the II, by God's will emperor of Russia, :-) , view this as Finnish explanation to themselves why they took the wrong side in the 2ndWW.
Own feeling of guilt + Donald Duck ideas taken on board.
I'll have smth to eat, get resources, and will write in more detail. To be able to answer this compilation requires some calories.
For starters - we don't hold a rock in the bosom against Finland for joining Hitler.
Ordinary feeling of justice and keeping world in balance prompts that you did this in revenge after the Russian-Finnish war, so nothing to wonder about.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (36):
I totally forgot to comment on the siege of Leningrad.
Finnish troops alongside the Germans sieged Leningrad, that is true, but what is forgotten is that Finns didn't take part on it actively.
To quote Wikipedia:
"Almost all historians regard the siege as a German operation and do not consider that the Finns effectively participated in the siege.[58] Only Nikolai Baryshnikov has been a strong supporter of the view that active Finnish participation occurred. The main issues which counted in favour of the former view are: (a) the Finns stayed at the pre-winter war border at the Karelian Isthmus, despite German wishes and requests, (b) they did not bombard the city from planes or with artillery and did not allow the Germans to bring their own land forces to Finnish lines, and (c) political convenience after the war - as all Finnish, Soviet and western historians wanted to distance themselves from Fenno-Soviet conflict."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_leningrad#Controversy_over_Finnish_participation
In our view on history the reason why we think that Mannerheim take active part on bringing down the city was that 1) he had a personal relationship with the city, 2) it would have taken too much resources and 3) collapse of Leningrad would have been a too hard symbolic failure for Stalin and would have demanded retribution against Finland. We should note that Stalin agreed to make a peace deal with Finland and he even allowed Mannerheim stay as president of Finland after the truce and there was never any demands from Soviets to trial him as an war criminal.
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NATO remains the crucial institution for restraining Russia. It has an essential advantage over the EU in that it brings US military capability which remains absolutely essential to deter an autocratic power like Russia. NATO however must also be globalised if it is to be fit for purpose in the 21st century, including acting as a deterrent against military adventurism by the other great autocratic powers in the world. This should mean NATO reform to (i) incorporate new members in South and South East Asia plus the Pacific such as Japan, India and Australia/New Zealand and (ii) changes in procedure to ensure that Continental counties cannot paralyse Western action in exchange for cut price energy deals with Moscow.
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Non-Russians will never fully understand Russia. Even the smartest "expert" commentators on this blog are a long way off. Good luck, though, enjoy the mental and verbal acrobatics! ;-)
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36. WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
'My concierge has been a child in the concentration camp for Russian children in Finland. A correction facility for slavs. The most senior one there was 13. The junior ones were 5. For their sake, of course, children collected in nazi occupied Norh-Western Russian lands. Lived in an empty spot behind the wire. Shoved bread in through the metal net, like wild tigers. Kids were as plumpy there as in Buchenwald. Guarded by Finns. No Germans.'
In peacetime during the famine which was purposely engineered by the Soviet authorities in 1932 – 1933 died a dreadful death up to 7 millions 'free ' soviet people: pregnant women , babies, children ,....
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Freeborn-John's "NATO reform... changes in procedure...so that continentl counties can't paralise Western action in exchange for cut price energy deals with Moscow".
Who is calling for "Western action" towards Russia? There was a good reason now - who did ?
We didn't swap NATO inaction for cut price energy deals, with anyone from
"continental counties." - a fact.
Nobody suggested or traded such a swap.
Contracts signed; when these expire - will be reviewed anyway, as oil price is down because of the crisis.
Besides, if you haven't noticed yet - Russia is not going to tolerate any black-mailing.
As to the NATO - as an organisation - is the last one to want "action against Russia." NATO depends on Russia in its Afghanistan affair.
There was an attempt now done by the 2nd man in power in the USA, to decrease this reliance. He's visited Azerbajan, eager to establish a new NATO supply bridge: Turkey-Armenia-Azerbajan.
I guess whatever your read - didn't inform you that in Azerbajan he's got such a cold shower that turned round on the heels and didn't even stay for the welcome dinner the first night. Disembarked in indignation that Azerbajan is not willing to cross Russia's road.
My media is also telling me that yesterday the President of Azerbajan was re-elected for the 2nd term.
So I guess you are in a bit of a hurry to know what NATO wants.
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Alice,
Re #35.
I just hope your "Frontier-guard-divers" are going to be given air - either bottled or piped - and not just given concrete boots to hold them in position guarding the new frontier!
As it happens I have seen BBC reports of Canda gearing itself for arctic exploration for mineral resources and deep-core mining of the future unerneath the polar ice cap.
It is understood that the Arctic is a potential honeypot for mineral resources but that extraction is beyond the current technological epxertise of any nation.
I can understand that the Russian claims for Arctic Territorial expansion will be countered by claims from Canada, Denmark (for Greenland), the USA and Norway ( who have Spitzbergen which may be even more likely to be connected by land ridge to the North Pole!).
I just hope that Russia does not try to "grabatize" the Arctic without agreement as that would result in conflict especially with Canada who appear to view the Russian claims upon the Arctic with a lot of distrust.
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alexius_3
"in peacetime famine which was puposely engineered by the Soviet authorities in 1932..."
What exactly did Soviet authorities done to "engineer famine" - please enlighten me.
What about great American depression? Not "engineered" by "capitalistic authorities", "on purpose", no?
Other world famines, bad crops - who "engineered" these?
Or the one in the 1932 in Russia was the one-off example?
This song is performed by one man in the world now - Ukrainian president Youshenko.
The stamp on the quality of the performance was several days ago stamped by the USA, eager to support its darling (darling No 2).
Darling No 1 is Saakashvili.
Youshenko put forward an idea that Russians on purpose starved the Ukrainians.
Yesterday in Moscow there was a round table of 42 Ukrainian historians and 16 Russian. All bearded and fussy professors this region could collect. One looking more important and authoritative than the other.
I watched their meeting. Was interesting.
My grandma told me about that famine and how people were eating each other.
Horror stories, hair raise up on head.
From what I understood - famine was not artificially organised.
What was criminal by "Soviet authorities" = Stalin - is he prohibited passport issue to allpeasants in the USSR. They became slaves, tied to their villages. He wanted to cut urbanisation, that all run to the big cities and no one wants to work in agriculture. applied draconian methods - simply - no papers. Sit and live where you are. In any big city if you'd come - to work - they'd require your birth certificate and passport. And peasants - across the whole USSR - didn't hold passports. Could not go work in cities. And when famine struck - they couldn't run to the cities, to get employment there or any survival chances.
But the famine itself - what additional reasons do you wish to invent? Was it a country with helathy economy and developed infrustructure? With supply routes and stable currency? With markets and bulk distributors, and distribution system as well?
It's a joke, to look for additional reasons. In 1932 Russia was a country that lived through the Russo-Japanese war, that lost 5 million in the 1st WW - peasants - soldiers - recruited - drafted in - FYI.
That then went through the revolution. Not enough trouble for you?
OK, then was the Civil war. All agricultural parts of Russia were heartily killing each other. Brother against brother.
And then we got Stalin repressions, wiping away another good piece of the country into prisons.
I can't imagine any more devastated, depopulated and ruined place than Russia was by 1930s. Excepting only the same place after the 2ndWW.
Back to the combined panel of authorities.
They had hearty quarrels and most poisonous mutual exchanges but all agreed that the simple quantity of people dead from famine 1932-1933 by region gives such impact hierarchy: Volga region Russia - most deaths, Kazakhstan - second, Ukraine - 3rd.
To say nothing of the fact that you tend to forget in those times Stalin did not mentally separate Ukrainians from Russians. That we are 2 diametrically opposite peoples with different interests is a comparatively fresh view.
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No no, Menedemus, you'd be happy to know that we began from paperwork, like decent people.
Supplied to UN print-outs mile after mile scans of what is underwater, and now a whole commission is staring at the blurry pictures silly trying to investigate if there is a gap - or is it a blot on paper!
They stare already 5 months. Can't come to any conclusions.
Meanwhile others got energised with the Russian innovative approach of border extension, and I am sure the commission will get more paper to look silly at.
With resource tapping - yes - alas - modern technologies don't even promise anything to look at.
The only practical application that even we were able to make of the Northern Pole - and we are a head ahead of others in this - was to anchor there on the sea bed an excellent titanium flag of Russia. Full colours looks very pretty.
We didn't drop it. We went all the way down and digged it into the "ground".
(Reminds me of Eldorado gold rush.)
So the first who challenges us will have as minimum to repeat the trick, plug out that Russian banner and install instead one's own.
The whole layout also calls to mind a Russian kind of limerick (chastushka).
(Your limericks are decent, ours is the old art as well but tend to be very naughty.)
(How to describe this poetic format - "Russian unprintable limericks". )
Well this one is printable:
If you get drowned,
And stick there to the sea bottom,
You will lie there 1 year, 2 years...
- And then you will get used to it!
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Alice
I've never heard that chastushka.
What does it sound like in russian?
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To WebAliceinwonderland (47):
Just to make a note about the expedition on Northern Pole that you refer...
The images that the Russian state television sent to international news agencies and broadcasted in television, that had submarines diving, was actually footage from the movie Titanic.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/aug/10/pressandpublishing2
To quote:
"Reuters has admitted that it took the images from Russian state television channel RTR and wrongly captioned them as file footage originating from the Arctic.
RTR had also used the footage to illustrate stories about the North Pole expedition, but it is thought as library footage, and it never claimed it was actually of the flag-planting.
The pictures were first broadcast by RTR when the Russians were still several hours away from the North Pole."
This whole SNAFU has more or less doubt to the whole expedition. Where there ever even expedition? If there was, where are the images and videos from that?
Oh well... to me this whole ordeal about North Pole and Antarctic are pointless 19th era century policies from all states currently involved in the matter.
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Jukka, this is Alice. What am I to do with your #38.
I cannot oppose line after line of your reasoning. The very idea is absurd.
Line after line - petty cash - bargaining -
is fit for other threads - where you discuss in fond detail amounts levied in EU VAT.
I think it is not very clever, and not elegant, to take up a Russian, a St. Petersburger, on the subject of war. Trying to explain me - what? what do you defend there ?
That Finland is justified in joining Hitler because it was in a crusader expedition against communism, not against Russia ?
Hitler would have also explained his reasons nicely, I am sure.
What are these 3 Jewish people or 5 Tatars, that you've managed by now to find in the Finnish army ? to prove me you were not against Russia, no no, no ethnic hard feelings involved - strictly - to cut short communism.
You know, Jukka, these days, with the interesting tendency towards lifting up old scores - and demanding money reimbursement for past ethnic cleanings - what Finland did - a neutral country in 2ndWW - as you wish to believe yourselves to be - collecting civillians into concentration camps - pre-sorting them into finno-ugors and slavs - by origin - is considered a heavy criminal charge.
How do you dare to explain me you've put children into concentration camps so that they won't start "guerilla fighting."
And that "these were not death camps". You didn't kill, right. With small children it's enough to feed bread and water, keep in the open, tear away from parents, not provide doctors - and keep in the metal net. I'd think even for grown-ups this is enough, to fix their wrong communistic attitudes once and for ever.
Technically wrong, communistic kids. Not fino-ugors, slavs, to make it worse.
Special treatment.
So, you were neutral in war. You've only pirated behind the Germans' back, collecting civillians in North West Russia into concentration camps.
With what idea in mind? To help the humanity?
In war - there is no "neutral". Neutral - you can be when you are away from the action. When you are in the boiling pot - you are either this side or that side.
And Finland has not balanced on the edge - you've crossed the line - and heavily.
Great help we ought to be thankful you didn't bomb besieged Leningrad from Finland. Leningrad was besieged, because the siege ring was closed on your side.
Dying people wanted to break out from the city. But they couldn't escape in your direction - Finnish block. Hitler didn't kill Leningraders either. Simply waited - until they die from hunger - like you did.
You've simply kept the military lines - so that Red Army troops would simply not be able to break through to Leningrad from the side of Finland. You find this "neutral", in war?
Mannerheim saved you. Must have been the only clever man around for miles.
If he did bomb St. Petersburg once - on tops of what Finland did to us in war anyway - Finland would be wiped off the map in 1943, when the siege was broken.
Long before any decisions were taken re "what to include into the Soviet block post-war, what not."
Mannerheim is your incredible luck - and his connections in his St. Petersburg cohort of students - ex-friends - his Soviet friends - is what saved Finland.
You were hilariously lucky twice - in one century - and not many countries can boast of it in the 20th. First - when Lenin let you go in 1917 - and you became an own country. And 2nd - when Stalin let you be in the 2ndWW. Russia has been hilariously gracious to Finland, our small soft spot.
You do recignise where you are located?
3 hr drive from the 2nd major Russian city.
That because of you the very capital was transferred from St. Petersburg to Moscow in 1918 - exclusively because Russia granted Finland independence - step 2.
Because you can't have the capital at the distance of direct artillery shot from abroad.
(anybody in this thread! unhappy with Moscow politics! simply remember you owe it to Jukka_Rohila! otherwise you'd be unhappy with St. Petersburg politics!)
Jukka, I really think you go too far in justifying Hitler action by the general humanity need to fight communism.
And by equalling communism threat to that of Hitler threat to the same old humanity.
You judge Stalin by modern standards. He "invited the 2nd WW in!" by "dividing Baltics and Poland".
Baltics and Poland - is not yet the whole world, and not even Europe.
Today - it is Europe.
Back then - it was Russia's good old backyard, "insignificant others."
Own historical provinces - Finland included - part of the Russian Empire. That they broke free for 17 years, while Russia was busy with the revolution and things - was considered by Stalin as a mistake and a neglectable nuisance.
I dare say he hadn't heard the very word "democracy" in 1939. Did anyone do?
And what is own empire due lands - he knew excellently well. His pre-war grabatisation of Poland, Baltics and an attempt at Finland back - he didn't view as international affair or "attack on Europe."
But like a minor internal business.
Not in order to "impose communism" on you. Simply - land.
Rus-Finnish war had one single reason - great war ahead, England already in, Europe falling like a card pack - and the same bloosdy direct artillery shot distance - btw Finland - and Leningrad.
You were again too close to the second USSR capital. Nothing personal. No communism. War was ahead - all knew - that is why under a provocation you were allured to attack. Stalin was preparing to the war. If you were 200 km away off - no one would care about grabbing you back pre-2nd WW. And yes - we flirted with Germans - like crazy - to buy time.
We weren't the only ones in Europe who did - but all like to remember this Stalin deal. I don't deny this. There was a predatory deal - regarding Poland - but for USSR it mean buying time.
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Jukka @ 34
Errr, the one who should re-read history is you. Trotsky was the one who wanted to promote world revolution. He was the "let's invade Poland with Budionni" guy. Stalin was the "Socialism in one country" guy. Stalin won, Trotsky died in Mexico with a pick axe trough the scull.
Soviet behaviour pre WW2? Well, they had this idea that the british and french were pushing Nazi Germany towards the east. That's how they interpreted the "phony war" and all the rhethorics. Offering a no agression pact to GB&France and being turned down didn't help, either. I bet Stalin felt very clever when arranging the R-M pact. "Kaaa-boing! Bounze back! Ho ho, letz toze burzhui deal wiz theyr own creeture".
Din't work, tough.
About the Finns... Well, they were part of the pre-war rethorics. The belo-finni got too loud, and got in a pact with Nazi Germany out of that. Seeing Germans and Soviets trading blows must've been a sobering sight. At least they reacted well, and started scalling back as soon as they could. They won Stalin's sympathy with that, it seems (that didn't spare them from pretty crazy war repairations, tough).
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Mir - the project was initially developed by the Soviet Academy of Sciences along with Design Bureau Lazurith...
Later two vehicles were ordered from Finland...
The MIR 1 and MIR 2 were designed and built by the Finnish company Rauma-Repola's Oceanics subsidiary.
The vessels are designed to be used for scientific research and for submarine rescue operations. The carrier and command centre of MIR submersibles is the R/V Akademik Mstislav Keldysh. Currently the MIRs are operated by the Russian Academy of Sciences… can dive to a maximum depth of 6000 metres (19,680 ft). The cockpit of MIR is a 5 cm thick sphere made from a combination of nickel and steel… the length is 7.8 m
Production of the two MIRs was a prime example of Finnish-Soviet economic and technical co-operation during the Cold War.
Bids from Canada, France and Sweden to construct the submarines had been retracted most likely due to political pressure.
In a later interview with STT the then head of department at Rauma-Repola Peter Laxell said he believed that "Finland got the permit to deliver the crafts to the Soviets on the basis that the CoCom officials in the USA believed the project would be a failure.”
The level of technology flowing into the Soviet Union raised concern in the U.S. and Rauma-Repola was privately threatened with economic sanctions.
In the mid 1990s and early 2000s, MIR vehicles were used by American producer James Cameron to film the wreck of the RMS Titanic…
On August 2, 2007 Russia used the MIR submersibles to perform the first ever manned descent to the seabed under the Geographic North Pole, to a depth of 4.3 km, to scientifically research the region in relation to the 2001 Russian territorial claim.
Descents were carried out on August 2, 2007.
The crew of MIR-1 was composed of the pilot Anatoly Sagalevich, Soviet and Russian polar explorer Arthur Chilingarov, and Vladimir Gruzdev.
The crew of MIR-2 was international; it was composed of pilot Yevgeny Chernyaev of Russia, Mike McDowell of Australia and Frederik Paulsen of Sweden.
On the seabed, at a depth of 4261 metres, MIR-1 planted a one meter tall rust-proof Flag of Russia, made of titanium alloy …and left a time capsule, containing a message for future generations …soil and water samples of the seabed were taken…
Mistaken controversy
A short time after the announcement was made, some tabloid newspapers tried to stir up controversy by claiming the footage was fake because some of the footage was from James Camerons movie Titanic.
It turned out that Russian TV had use the footage, for which they hold copyright, as an illustration of the submarines in action.
They had shown this hours before the Mirs had arrived, and they had specifically pointed out that this was from the movie Titanic.
Reuters did not make this determination when they started spreading the story and used the pictures wrongly captioned.
Reuters later apologized and issued a statement … they reposted the story with correct captions.
Few major outlets mentioned this since the facts about the Russian submarines reaching the pole remained factual.
In July 2008 both Mir-1 and Mir-2 initiated a two-year expedition to lake Baykal, the world's largest fresh water reservoir. The expedition is being lead by the Russian Academy of Sciences. During the expedition around 160 descents are planned to the bottom … Notable pilotsAnatoly Sagalevich
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And i just bought and finished reading Obruchev's Plutonia! In spanish, but still.
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46 WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
'all agreed that the simple quantity of people dead from famine 1932-1933 by region gives such impact hierarchy: Volga region Russia - most deaths, Kazakhstan - second, Ukraine - 3rd.'
Death toll 1932-1933 : at least 3.5 million had starved to death in Ukraine, up to 1 million in Kazakhstan, 400- 500 thousand in Volga region
According to the Soviet census of 1926 there were 31.2 million Ukrainians and 4 million Kazakhs.
11 years later there were 26.4 million Ukrainians and 2.9 million Kazakhs in USSR
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50 WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
'what Finland did - a a neutral country in 2ndWW - as you wish to believe yourselves to be - collecting civillians into concentration camps - pre-sorting them into finno-ugors and slavs - by origin - is considered a heavy criminal charge.'
The collecting millions of civilians into GULAG concentration camps is considered a heavy criminal charge
In peacetime 1937 - 1938 700 thousand people were executed in USSR .
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50. WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
'Stalin was preparing to the war.'
He was preparing to an offensive war.
Stalin concentrated on the Soviet Western border 15.6 thousand tanks and 11 thousand aircraft.
Hitler had near the border with USSR only 4 thousand tanks and 4.3 thousand aircraft.
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alexius_3 pls tell the source of numbers.
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alexius_3 @ #56
Oh do for heaven's sake get a grip!
Your hatred of Russia may be the result of a personal grievance but please do not try to rewrite history.
The German "Barbarossa" Operation in 1941 was an Offensive Operation and even after the Germans launched their offensive Russian Trains delivering Russian trade goods were still being used to ferry materials into Germany - even the Germans were amazed at seeing this innocence having launched war without prior announcement.
The Russian Army was huge but relatively poorly led because of the Stalin purges and, as evidenced by the hundreds of thousands of Russian prisoners taken in the late summer of 1941, the Russain troops were ill-equipped, poorly trained and of insufficient numbers to withstand the Wermacht onslaught.
The Russian army of 1941, with best will in the world was far from able to launch offensive assaults and several whole Russian armies were lost to German captivity - many of the Russian soldiers never to survive the war.
This history is documented within the NAZI German archives that survived the Second World War and freely available in Western Europe. If the Germans believed that millions of Russians were captured you can be sure that is a fact and not propaganda as the one thing that could be said of the Germans is that they are meticulous when it comes to clerical details.
I am not particularly a fan of Russia but I hate the idea that you can quietly besmirch the dead by rewriting history to suit your own prejudices.
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Someone got a Rezun/Suvorov intoxication.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (50):
I disagree with you in one thing very strongly and that is on taking up Russian, an St. Petersburger, on the subject of war. Why? Well, your reply shows a great deal of passion and feelings about the issue, to me this tells that this matter is still open on your part thus there is even bigger need on discussion. For a discussion to be a constructive one, it has to be mainly based on exchange of views and facts, it has to be based more on ration and less on feelings. That is why I prefer as neutral and impassive line of message exchange.
Now the next question is what for are we having this discussion. That is a good question, an excellent question. One thing is to gain common ground on history, where we agree and where we don't agree, and why. This is important as it allows us to see present from the looking glass of history.
To skip short, I will now enter to my conclusions and from there to our recent discussion and in the last address details.
The problem of current Russia, Soviet Union and tsarist Russia in its later times was and is rampant nationalism and uncontrolled xenophobia. This is what explains pan-slavism, Russification and empire building of both tsarist Russia and Soviet Union, and mainly it explains current policies of the Kremlin. This is the main reason why we still have tensions between the west and Russia, why Russia is not taking part on European integration and why its not taking part on globalization. Now this sounds like an accusation, but hold on a minute.
The question that I think many Russians and especially Russian leadership haven't asked is why so many of its Soviet Republics ex-allies and neighbors and the western world in general have so bad image of it, why there is anti-Russian feelings and behavior. Why even Ukraine and Ukrainians have bad view of Russia, why they even if they share so much of the history with Russians want so badly integration with the west.
My view, as I pointed out, is the current crop of nationalism and xenophobia. When Putin says that the collapse of the Soviet Union was "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of 21th century, what others are hearing is "we want our empire back, we want to rule others again". When we read in the news about Nasi youth, or about Zhirinovsky or about National Bolsheviks the first that comes mind is "no, not again, not again".
Now, you may disagree with me with this, I understand that. Remember that is the view that I have of the current situation and what I believe others also believe. You and other Russians may be even offended by this, that's not my intention, hopefully you believe that. Of course I should add that nationalism and xenophobia are not only restricted to Russians. Germans had this same problem too which changed after the collapse of the third Reich. French had the same attitude and they only lost that after the second world war and after losing their colonial wars. British lost this attitude after the war almost completely. The Americans certainly have this syndrome too. We others can't afford to have this syndrome.
Now what is the point to take this view up on air. Well for one thing this is not about demanding an apology or restitutions. I really don't think nobody really wants that or that current Russia and Russians somehow carried collective guilt from past generations. That is absurd. What I want is that we can just be honest about the past and present, if we can do that, then maybe, just maybe there is a possibility to let go of the past and make sure on not repeating the same mistakes again.
Well all fine and dandy, but how does this connect to our conversation about the events in the second world war. On my view our views about the past distort our look of history. You have been educated by the Soviet schooling system. I have been educated by the Finnish schooling system and it didn't, by the lack knowledge or by ethos of official national history, didn't tell all and everything about the war. My last history lesson was ten years ago and in that time there has been more facts come out about the past that make it different from the past that was given by the school.
Now I devolve back to details about the war as we do have disagreeing views about it.
Regarding the war of 1939, winter war, happened because of Soviet Union and the aim of the Soviets was to occupy and annex Finland as it did with Baltics and east Poland. The continuation war Finland joined to not only take back of the areas it had lost, but because there were no other options. If Finland hadn't joined the war, Germany would have attacked Finland to enable it to cut the Murmansk railroad and to attack St. Petersburg from the west. There was no option on choosing the Soviet Unions side as Soviets didn't tolerate sovereignty, parliamentary democracy, human rights nor market economy.
Regarding the reasons of the winter war. Yes, Finland was too close of St. Petersburg and for its defense land was needed. That still doesn't deny the fact that Stalin didn't just want land for defense, he wanted all of it.
Regarding reasons the result of war. As I said before, nationalism and xenophobia were the driving forces of Soviet Union. If the aim occupying Baltics and east Poland had just been to gain defensive ground, surely these areas would have returned. This didn't happen, what happened was annexing of east Poland and Russification of Baltics and annexed areas.
Regarding Jews and Tatars in Finnish army during the war. From the 1700 Finnish Jews, 260 served in the Finnish army and 200 of then in front line during the winter war. In the continuation war Finnish Jews continued to serve their country and several were nominated for German decorations that they didn't of course accept. During the war 76 Tatars served the army and 14 of them died.
http://www.uta.fi/~tuulikki.vuonokari/fin-1.html
Regarding collecting civilians into concentration camps. I did say that this is regarded as an mistake. Maybe I should have voiced my condemnation to it more strongly.
Regarding Mannerheim. You do know that he was the Field Marshall of the Finnish army during the war and he had the total control of the army and how it waged war. It was he who ordered the foundation of interment camps. The only responsibility of the government was to assist army as best it could. To quote again Wikipedia: "One of the reasons to this was Stalin's respect for and admiration of the Marshal. Stalin told a Finnish delegation in Moscow in 1947 that the Finns have a great indebtedness to their old Marshal. Due to him Finland was not occupied."
Regarding Hitler, Stalin, Nazi Germany and Soviet Union. Both leaders did crime against humanity and both regimes were criminal in their very nature. They were equally bad and they both deserve the judgment and contempt of the human kind because of their crimes.
Regarding Leningrad. The crucial thing about the siege of Leningrad was that Finns stayed in the pre-war border and didn't close the cap that supplied the city. There wasn't anything else that could have been done.
Regarding neutrality. Neutrality is that you don't prefer either of the options given to you more than the other. Finnish government and Mannerheim could have closed the siege of Leningrad air-tight and thus the city would have collapsed. They could have pushed harder in the north to cut the Murmansk supply line and thus helped to collapse Soviet Union. These actions didn't happen, you can either believe that Mannerheim couldn't do it or that he didn't prefer the outcome and consequences.
Regarding Finnish independence. The independence of Finland wasn't given by Lenin, it was given by Germany that defeated Russia in the eastern front. The capital of Russia wasn't moved solely because of newly independent countries, it was removed because Moscow was more protective, far away from the White army and from the foreign armies.
Regarding democracy. US had working democracy, UK too, France had something like it, Germany tried it, Sweden had it, and Finland had it. Yes, I'm pretty sure that people in Russia knew about it, after all the first parliament was built and housed in St. Petersburg.
Regarding Mainila shelling. Shelling of Mainila wasn't a provocation, it was an play orchestrated by the Soviets. Same too with the continuation war. If one thing Soviet Union could handle it was false flag attacks.
Did I cover all the points? Hopefully.
History is what is history is, it doesn't change, what can change is our views and especially our understanding of views of others. Again, I can understand if you don't agree or have different views, that's understandable.
To mostacholi (51):
My bad. Well one detail fixed. Still, doesn't the change the end result.
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In fact Alexius_3 don't bother.
Whatever numbers you quote from a very good and thick book you won't convince me Russia (USSR) was going to attack Hitler, and concentrated forces on the borderline.
If this was so - at least one Russian would know about it and have told all the others. Never heard even a word in this direction.
What I know is we were not ready, had not tanks, had not airplanes, and Stalin afraid of the army coup has killed out 2/3 of all generals and officers and commanders right in the spring of 1941.
Army was decapitated and crap.
And the strike we took in complete unawareness condition, like total idiots. All knew "it's coming, thunderstorm is coming" but when it blasted - no one was ready.
In effect what was left of the regular army shrank back away and stood still around Moscow guarding precious Stalin sitting in.
the rest of the country simply didn't have regular troops, was left naked.
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Menedemus wrote:
alexius_3 @ #56
'Oh do for heaven's sake get a grip!
Your hatred of Russia may be the result of a personal grievance but please do not try to rewrite history.'
Take it easy, Sir
Only established facts!
Plato is my friend — Aristotle is my friend — but my greatest friend is truth.
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To Menedemus (58):
You do know that there are alternative views on this matter. Nazi Germany and Soviet Union both were totalitarian regimes set on world conquest.
To quote unfortunately once again Wikipedia:
"Viktor Suvorov gives an alternative explanation in his Icebreaker. The larger and better equipped Soviet armed forces, according to Suvorov, were preparing their own surprise offensive against Axis forces, targeting especially their oil supplies in Romania: Suvorov's sources suggest that July 6, 1941 -- two weeks later than the actual German invasion -- had been set as the start of Soviet Operation "Thunderstorm".[55] Russian historian Boris Sokolov, exploring pre-war Soviet planning, also concluded that after the German invasion on June 22, 1941, the Red Army undertook counterattacks within the framework of the planned offensive and that the subsequent defensive operations of the Soviet Army, in view of the absence of pre-war defensive plans, were merely improvised:[56] hence the initial gigantic defeats."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_barbarossa#Causes_of_initial_Soviet_defeats
Of course what happened is that Nazi Germany attacked first and history happened.
Regardless that, regardless the Suvorov's theory, one other thing that we have to ask is why did Stalin create the largest armed force in Europe? He had more tanks and plains than any other. Can you really just say that those were just for defensive purposes and not for a preparation of an invasion? My view on the matter is that Nazi Germany and Soviet Union would have fought eventually, they were bought out for a fight.
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Jukka,
I can't see yet what you have written - I only see you did - whatever it is - you know what - there is a good Russian proverb:
"Who'll memory the old things - his eye out."
Meaning who brings forward old scores - is worth one eye to be kicked out. Because life is such a wonder there is never any lack of new problems, to excavate the old ones, on tops.
Like, it is unwise to quarrel, on the base of the old broth.
There is also a continuation to the proverb
- And who will forget - his 2 eyes out!
Meaning - remember - but don't bring up unnesessary - to cause trouble.
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mostacholi, what's that plutonia about, haven't read, may I wonder ?
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Menedemus wrote:
alexius_3 @ #56
'in the summer of 1941 the Russain troops were ill-equipped, '
were the Russain troops ill-equipped with 15.6 thousand tanks, 11.5 thousand aircraft and 59.6 thousand guns and mortars?
And Germans troops with 4.1 thousand tanks, 4.3 thousand aircraft and 42.2 thousand guns and mortars?
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Jukka our disagreements are of such strategic nature they are hopeless to resolve.
I keep to the view any country partaking in the 2ndWW is indebted to Russia head over heels.
That a rep of Finland - who - at best! was "neutral" - same neutral as Spain and Italy in the Russian world understanding -
takes to question the credibility and intentions of Russian action in war - how to say
There is a saying that in the house of a hanged man - one doesn't speak about ropes.
Or - if you wish - "about the dead - good or nothing."
I will not trample on the cemetery of the Russian loss in the 2nd ww - discussing the details and particulars of what you studied in school. Even for the sake to have you convinced, or to improve a detail or another.
Even if I could re-educate the whole blog together with you, or the whole Europe visiting Mark Mardell's.
I find it absolutely disgusting. I think any other country loss fades in the face of the Russian commitment and in-put into the war.
If you wish, we feel so , how to say, above on the war matter, that we won't even bother to correct. This is fussy, may be wrong. or may be right.
I do not wish to offend you, but I guess I did.
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For which I apologise.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (64):
In Finnish we have exactly, almost exactly, the same proverb. "A poke in the eye for those, who dwell on the past"
The second proverb I have no recollection of ever hearing.
I do agree with your point. Past shouldn't be unnecessarily brought up. I should add that I was provocated by Alex_t2000 #30 comment. I'm totally innocent to this raising of dead!
Honestly, I'm fully guilty to this raising of past, but its more because of just being very curious about history and its events. I do appreciate your comments and the comments of others who don't agree with my points. History is a looking glass, not only to present, but also to other individuals and their beliefs and valuations. Another commentator said before that its for others impossible to understand Russians fully, that however doesn't pre-empt one from trying to.
PS. I saw that you made comment 67, but can't see its content and won't be seeing it before the morning. Good night everybody!
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alexius_3 @ 66
Yes, the numbers are irrelevant as the Russian weaponry was old, dysfunctional and very obsolete. The Russians did not yet have the T-42 tank which was the first tank capable of withstanding the armor penetration of the German Panzer tanks nor were the huge numbers of troops capable, let alone trained, for offensive action. Many simply surrendered or retreated before the German Blitzkreig.
The Russians have always relied on numbers but in the year 1941 the numbers were ill-equipped, ill-prepared and ill-trained. Many of the Russian aircraft were destroyed on the ground in the first hours and days of Operation Barbarossa so well kept a secret was the Invasion of Russia.
The German annals actually express amazement at the poor quality of the equipment they were capturing as they swept forward on three broad fronts.
By September 1941, the Germans were think that this was an easy war compared to France of 1940 and that they fully anticiapated reaching Moscow and capturing it by Christmas 1941. Hitler is reported as saying that the whole structure of Russia was so rotten that his German Wermacht only had to kick down the Russian front door and the whole house of Russia would collapse.
You can quote numbers of troops, tanks and aircraft until you are blue in the face but the fact is that the Russian military of 1941 was unfit to withstand the German Blitzkrieg.
The Russians truly perfected the art of "strategic retreat" as opposed to "strategic withdrawal" - I do not mean that in a nasty way as the Russians, in the name of Stalin, sacrificed tens of thousand of troops to slow down the Germans but still had to retreat nonetheless - their army being that poor in quality by comparison to the Germans.
It is also telling that prior to the Soviet-German Non-Aggression Pact of 1939, Great Britain and France had been in talks with Russia to agree a Mutual Defence Treaty - Stalin was open to the idea but distrusted the French and British to come to Russia's aid in the event of Germany invading Russia. The British delegation was a military delegation and the British Officers reported back to London that the Russian army was a rag-tag army with old equipment and that the Stalin purges had all but eliminated all of the top military leaders of the Russian Army - in response Chamberlain instructed the British and French Delegations to go slowly in their talks with the Russians.
This was yet another BIG mistake by the British and French prior to the invasion of Poland but it does illustrate that the Russians were ill-prepared for war and why it was probably prudent of Russia to sign up to the Non-Agression Pact with Germany in 1939 . . . even though it gave Germany the green light to invade Poland and cause Great Britain and France to declare war on Germany.
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I guessed it right. Suvorov/Rezun. Anyone who uses his data and conclussions is absolutelly clueless. His works are a shameless travesty that pandered to revisionisitic attitudes in the early 90s. I dare you to read it with a straight face. His logic holes and plain factual errors are the size of a... a... something really big.
Of course it got a lot of press. Starting with the pople who get a warm feeling thinking "see? nazis weren't that bad. they were trying europe from the barbarians". It doesn't have to make sense while it says what you want to believe.
Alice @ 65:
A expedition goes to the north pole in 1913, finds a hole and gets inside earth, wich is hollow with a central star. There are mamuts, dinosaurs and huge ants. Great fun!
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Jukka_Rohila @ 66
I am not convinced that a Soviet ex-spy and defector is a convincing source of truth about Russian military capabilities of 1941.
The Wikipedia to which you refer does state that "Suvorov's assertions remain a matter of debate among historians. While most agree that Stalin made extensive preparations for an upcoming war and exploited the military conflict in Europe to his advantage, the assertions that Stalin planned to attack Nazi Germany in the summer of 1941, and that Operation Barbarossa was a preemptive strike by Hitler, is still under debate."
I would personally take Suvorov's comments and assertions with a pinch of salt!
I think the fact that millions of Russian Prisoners of War were captured and whole armies decimated by the Germans between June 22 1941 and Christmas of 1941 are a big clue as to the deficiencies of the Russian military capabilities even if they were numerically superior in manpower, although poorly trained and without adequate equipment during that time.
It should also be said that the Russian T-34 Tank which was the first 2nd World War tank capable of withstanding armor penetration from the munitions of the German Panzer tanks did not appear until 1941 and, in fact, there were insufficient numbers of these tanks to make a strategic difference for Russia until 1942.
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Overall,
if I tell acquaintances friends or pupils I teach English to - what I heard about us in the threads - a thing here, a pack there - one thing guaranteed - all will fall down from chairs.
I think Russians are friendly to the "West" because they simply don't read English, don't poke around in foreign blogs, and are in blissfull ignorance of the opinions existing in the world about them.
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mostacholi @ #71
That sounds just like the storyline of "Journey to the Center of the Earth" by Jules Verne (1864) only the access hole is set within an extinct volcano in Iceland.
We must swap copies! I love a good story to read! :=)
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The One Who Didn't Shoot
I don't put macaroni on your ears
(the wind-up of the clock is not the same it used to be before)
Since one nice lovely morning
A whole platoon was shooting at me.
What for have I got such a blasted, and awkward fate -
It's not that I don't know. Rather, I'm not allowed to tell.
My commander - he'd nearly saved me.
But someone up there insisted on the verdict.
And the platoon - it fulfilled the order to perfection.
Except there was one guy in it. Who didn't shoot.
My crazy fortunes for a long time goes in zig-zag.
Once a German talking head - I obtained - but didn't bring to the unit alive.
And our KGB guy, Sutin, our darling never-tired-one
Back then - made a note - and "took it on his pencil."
He'd put together and presented
A nicely clipped together ready file.
After that - no one could do anythng to save me.
Oh, that is - one boy could. The one - who hasn't shot.
Hand fell down to abyss
With a horrible sound "Fire!
And a volley issued me a pass
To the other part of the world.
The next thing I hear - "he's alive, scoundrel! carry him to the medical unit!"
for "to shoot down one man twice - there aren't such laws in the army."
And the doc later chuckled with pleasure
And extracted bullets out of me.
And I ? I talked, and talked, in fever hallucination.
To who ? to him. to the one - who didn't shoot.
My wounds, like a dog,
I licked - didn't heal,
in the hospitals, however, I was in much respect
The whole weak female sex used to walk around me, in love:
"Hey, you! The under-shot one! It's your time for a shot."
Our batallion was hero-making in Crimea.
And I was sending there glucose in tablets.
So that it'd be sweeter, to make the war, to him.
- To who - to him? To the one, who didn't shoot.
I sipped tea out of a saucer,
Sometimes - even with the spirit in.
It wasn't my lot to kick up the bucket -
So I continued in the war.
They sent me back to my old regiment:
"Well, then, go on! " said my combat,
And "that we didn't shoot you down properly -
it's really not my fault!"
I was also glad to see him.
But, sitting by the tree trunk,
I howled like a wild beast
And damned my fortunes:
A German sniper - he has finally finished me off
By killing the one - who didn't shoot.
My commander - he's nearly about saved me.
But someone up there, insisted on the verdict.
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Alice,
Re. 73
I have had my eyes opened and that is not a bad thing (please see my comment under "Georgian Hospitallity") - I have moved from being critical of Russia in regard to invading Georgia to being ambivalent and am actually fascinated when you talk of Russia and Georgia. . . .
I have never hated the Russians as I for one do recognise the sacrifices and depravations that the Russians must have undergone between 1941 and 1945.
Hatred or fear of Russian people is I suspect purely that of other people who harbour resentment from many years ago when Russia was Soviet Russia.
Time is a healer and understanding will surely replace the hatred that is based upon historic events that many Russians of today will have had no responsibility let alone knowledge.
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Menedemus, you'd be pleased to know that the author of this song (an alas long time ago dead Soviet poet) had kept throughout past summer a strong competition for the Russian minds.
We picked up, I think from Britain, a TV project "Name of Russia".
First there were 500 names to internet -vote for, incl. various tsars, and Tchaikovsky and Dostoevsky and Tolstoy and Nicolas the II and Ivan the Terrible and who not. Mendeleev, Gagarin, I mean all sorts of composers and politicians, Gorbi, poet Pushkin etc.
The list shrank down to 50, then - to 10.
Then the organisers got scared themselves by the results. The tops was Stalin.
Followed by this poet. Followed by Lenin.
There was a huge scandal. How come 2 monsters with a poet tightly sandwiched in between. To say nothing, that you absolutely cannot announce Stalin as "the name of Russia."
And what's the crazy Russians because what this poet ever wrote - is earth and sky to what Stalin and Lenin ever desired for. Uncompatible.
There was an investigation that proved our dear old communist party took to making votes in the organised manner - one each posts every day. Without breaks and holidays, pushing the 2 names up.
This is all nevermind, simply note that what I quote here - prevailed in superiority in the Russian opinion over such authorities like Leo Tolstoy, Catherine the 2nd - and - well - anyone in the 1000 years of Russian history, for that matter.
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Menedemus, I understand.
I also understand the specifics - where I am.
This is BBC - nothing bad I mean, no no, but still it is your key media. Voice of Britain.
It is not supposed, by definition, to be a hot house for someone like me.
And it envelopes everyone in atmosphere, you wouldn't deny - BBC is strong enough to create an atmosphere.
As another saying goes: Called yourself a mushroom - get climbed up into the basket!
(mashroom - it's me)
Like, too late to complain. "You don't go to another monastery with your own prayer books."
(and, in my personal experience, I have so far encountered one difficult item in my life to "convince". This is - an elderly English lady. Steel is down and feathers compared.
However, I discussed war previously - with many many elderly English ladies, and most fell to my charms eventually :-) and became quite comforting and agreeable. So years ago I began wondering - why we can't agree with this one particular one?
You know what - she worked all life in high position in BBC.
She loves me dearly. And never agrees. (well. almost)
So I'd put my conclusions short - the most hard to argue with - is this combination: an elderly English lady AND a flesh and bone of BBC! :-)
__________________
Anyway.
"It is not given us to trace
The further fate of words, the world's reaction...
But it is given us to feel compassion
As inexplicably - as grace!"
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#12 MarcusAureliusII
I usually agree with just about everything you say except I believe Russia is still a threat to the U.S. Find out who they say their enemy is. I believe #1 is terrorists and #2 is America. Europe is just their testing ground to see how far they can go and just how long the U.S. will sit back and do nothing. This could get very interesting depending on who the next U.S. president is.
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To mostacholi (71) and Menedemus (72):
You are relying too much on the hindsight history.
Imagine you are in 1941 and don't know how the history played. Now, at that time if you were Russian officer or engineer, would you have guessed how inferior the Russian designs were? If you were Russian officer or even Stalin, would you have guessed how much effect the purges of officers had on the performance of the army? No, you wouldn't have that acknowledge, because to that point Soviet army and hardware had done their job: Baltics were occupied easily, the trip to Finland went badly, but that was because of the winter, and east Poland fell in an instant. You can't say that "they relied on numbers and not quality" as in the day they just didn't know better. Now again, why did the Soviet Union had so massive army, so much military hardware massed on the western border? Is there a possibility that they were about or planning to make an invasion to Germany and western Europe? Can you doubtlessly say that wasn't never the intent of the Soviet Union?
Now if we go to discuss about Suvorov, no, I don't think that you can just dismiss his theory. Yes, there's amply of criticisms leveled against his theory, there however are people that think he got it partially right, and people that straightly support his take on the issue.
This is mostly to mostacholi...
You should note that these discussions or criticism of official history in some points, having alternative theories on what happened, what they certainly don't do is to acquit Hitler or Nazis, they don't make him or them any less bad that they were. Two wrongs don't make one right.
The thing why these theories are levied, why people are still talking about these is that we don't have the final truth about second world war yet. What we know is that Nazis and Soviets, yes both, committed crimes against humanity. The west didn't do any better, Churchill can be labeled as a war criminal, Eisenhower certainly has as much quilt or even more hanging over him. The thing is, history is full more or less gray, its not a black and white story, the story of world war two isn't that innocent Soviet Union got invaded by Nazis, it isn't about how Americans came and rescued the whole so just simply because of love of humanity. No, that's a children's story, that's not an hard and critical look on history and it's events.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (67):
No no no, my dear Alice, I'm not offended. On the contrary, I was very afraid that I had offended you.
The thing is that I have the benefit of having one generation between me and the generation that went to the war. I also have the benefit that I don't believe to unattainable differences between races, nationalities or languages, I belong to faction that sees and hopes that ever increasing globalization and advancement of technology will eventually make the whole human kind the same, no different races, no different cultures and no different languages, just one unified global humanity with one culture and one language. These things give me the benefit on looking history mostly without passion or feeling, they are just history, and at best they can tell something about our contemporary world.
For me everything is and should be open to be discussed. Of course I can understand that not everybody are open to this idea and on the consequences an open discussion might lead. History is just history and the dead stay dead.
Now, discussing about the dead, well, no matter is holy. To demonstrate my position and lighten this whole discussion, I recommend an Eulogy song by the Australian comedic group The Chaser's war on everything...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLVsIpejFgM
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Jukka_Rohila @ #80
History is hindsight that is very true. In fact very few people even think about the fact they make history when they make decisions or choices that impact upon others.
However, I think you overlook a few features of the period 1939 to 1941 that makes the Suvorov version somewhat unconscionable.
From 1933 and even before coming to power the German Nazis had quite openly been saying in public statement and oration that the future of Germany was eastwards expansion. Hitler even publicly described his dream of German "lebensraum" as being the Slavic lands of Russia.
From 1933 when coming to power the Russian emissaries were having first hand experience of dealing with the Nazis in the form of von Ribbentrop and could easily gauge the temperament of the Nazis and their plans.
In 1939, as I mentioned at #70, the military delegations of Great Britain and France were despatched to Moscow to discuss the possibility of a Pact of Mutual Protection between Russia, Great Britain and France. Despatches form the Military Delegation for Great Britain are openly critical of the quality of the Russian military machine and it was a decision of the British to "go slowly" with he discussions that effectively caused the breakdown of those talks and the Russians to choose to sign the Non-Aggression Pact with Germany.
Everyone in the world especially the leaders of Great Britain, France, Germany and Russia new that a war with Germany was inevitable. Germany’s aggressions with Czechoslovakia were the nail-in-the-coffin and it was evident that Poland was next on the German agenda. Quite naturally Diplomats of all nations have to have an optimistic view of world events and the messages were of hope that some form of accommodation could be reached with Germany to avoid war.
Stalin knew they could not single-handedly match German for efficiency or hardware quality but need to either agree a pact with France and Great Britain or treat with Germany.
It certainly could be seen from the dealings with Germany over Czechoslovakia that Great Britain and France were not the most reliable of partners for Russia so, in my view quite understandably, Stalin agreed with Hitler to conclude a separate agreement over Poland’s future.
This was incredibly cynical but it did buy Russia time to develop its army and build up a defence for Russia. Stalin had no illusions but even he was surprised by the speed with which the Germans eventually entered Russia and swept up whole armies through encirclements in the period of June through to December 1941.
In a way the surprise of Comrade Stalin was evidence of your comment, "Now, at that time if you were Russian officer or engineer, would you have guessed how inferior the Russian designs were? If you were Russian officer or even Stalin, would you have guessed how much effect the purges of officers had on the performance of the army? No, you wouldn't have that acknowledge, because to that point Soviet army and hardware had done their job: Baltics were occupied easily, the trip to Finland went badly, but that was because of the winter, and east Poland fell in an instant. You can't say that "they relied on numbers and not quality" as in the day they just didn't know better."
I actually agree with you - Stalin was not to know that his Russian army was that poorly trained, ill-equipped and badly led. He believed that the Non-Agression Pact had given him and Russia sufficient time to put in place the numbers of troops (albeit badly equipped and relatively poorly led!) to counter any German aggression.
What Stalin was doing between 1939 and 1941 was cynically buying time for Russia and creating a buffer zone between Germany and Russia.
Finland was a sideshow but the Baltics and Eastern Poland was territory over which Germany had to travel to get to Russia proper.
As it happened, German efficiency, technical superiority and the quality of the manpower of that German Wehrmacht at 1941 was such that the superiority in numbers of the Russians versus the Wermacht was no match.
Do I think, that Stalin was an innocent? No. He was as equally cynical as Hitler and equally as evil if it was of benefit to his own country - just like Hitler.
Do I think that Russia could have become the aggressor agianst Germany at some time post-1941? Absolutely, as the doctrin of Germanic National Socialism was an anthema to Stalin and the Russian Communist Party. Sooner or later there ahd to be confrontation between Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. It was simply that 1941 was too soon for Russia to be effective as a War Machine.
Do I think that Stalin was a threat to Germany? Yes. Stalin was a pragmatic man, he was an evil genius who matched Hitler for absolute dictatorial cynicism - he invaded the Baltic’s, Eastern Poland and attacked Finland with extreme cynicism but I do believe that the difference between German and Russian intentions in the period 1939 to 1941 were different.
Russia was weak from the purges, the inefficiencies of Communism and the consequences of famine, poverty and the internecine conflicts post-1917. Stalin needed time to develop Russia and his brand of Stalinist Communism.
German was a rising star but had long avowed seeking “lebensraum” in the lands to the east of Germany.
A conflict was inevitable between Germany and Russia but I do firmly believe that it was always going to be Germany that was to be the aggressor in the 1940s although German annals do suggest that by 1980 the Germans believed that Russia would be strong enough to attack Germany - it would not be surprising for them to suggest that Russia might be aggressive some time in the future as Germany always had to seek some kind of reason for launching war . . . that is until June 1941 when they launched all-out war without declaration.
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Re: Molotov-Ribbentrop pact discussions on BBC
It is quite interesting how people always mention Molotv-ribbentrop pact as a crucial diplomatic component in preparation for the war, but discard the Munich agreement in its context.
When mentioning Molotov-Ribbentrop, please, ask yourself, how come that it was somebody named Molotov who signed it? Ah, you say, he was USSR's foreign minister - well, of course, but whed and why did it so happen that this awkward guy, actually despised by Stalin was appointed to such a position? And does name
Meir Henoch Mojszewicz Wallach-Finkelstein = Maxim Litvinov
tell you something? Well, if not you can google it up easily and read on Wikipedia. Otherwise, here is a short relevant quote.
"After the Munich Agreement between Britain, France and Germany in September 1938 and Western inaction after Germany's occupation of what remained of Czechoslovakia in March 1939 had clearly demonstrated the unwillingness of the Western Powers to participate in collective security against the Axis Powers together with the Soviet Union, Soviet foreign policy was adjusted to face the new realities and Litvinov was replaced as foreign minister in early May 1939, in order to facilitate the negotiations that led to the Non-Aggression Pact with Germany, signed by Litvinov's successor, Vyacheslav Molotov, in August of that year."
Now, Litvinov was the patriarkh of soviet diplomacy and remained one of the Stalin's top foreign affairs advisers - served as Envoy to the League of Nations, arranged the lend-lease deal, etc. OK. Think now if you can.
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Igor_NY
You are too clever for me, sorry. Please complete your thought. I don't know what to think. All I understood so far, about own Russian history, is that Litvinov was dear for Stalin, so he didn't want to tar him with Robbentrop deal, but shoved hom behind, and put forward a new chap to sign that deal, Molotov.
And as you wrote Litvinov's name it looks he was 100% Jewish. And what to think next?
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Egor_NY @ #83
Yes, that does remind me and I remember now my readings of the 1939 events.
Stalin thought that Litvinov was too much for the Germans to accept in negotiations towards achiving signing of the Non-Aggression Treaty and Molotov was considered more of an "acceptable" facade for the Stalin Regime to represent Russia in her interactions with Herr Ribbentrop and Hitler.
Evryone in the west assumed that when the Non-Aggression traty was announced that it was Germany colluding with Russia but both parties gained form the treaty - Germany gained the benefit of knowing that in the event of invading Poland she was only to face a one warfront situation as hostilities with France and Great Britain had been made clear by the treaty of mutual assistance between Poland and Great Britain; Russia gained the respite that Stalin needed to defend Russia against Germany should war develop at some time in the future between the two countries.
I remember reading this in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer (1960) which, although a book lacking in academic stature, does give the reader the details of the German Archive materials which survived the Second World War and which are a historian's dream - to be read, savoured and used to make one's own judgement upon the history of that time.
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Dear Menedemus #82, why do I always agree with you? but I do. there must be something comforting about you, for a passionate Russian dashing here and there.
Yes I think here was a gross feeling of disappointment that England and France don't want to sign papers. First Stalin's idea - to team up with you - was right, as it was proved afterwards. This our monster was at times very brainy.
I think for him England, France and Germany looked approximately the same calibre - same capitalists, all big countries, same weight. Still Russia has historical supersitutions ab Germany, more than others in Europe (not 1stWW only, but all the prev. German in-raids onto us), so Stalin naturally began from making friends with anyone - but Germany. And, I mean, the very point was to alliance against rising German power.
All here knew there will be war, the only question - how much time left.
Those popular Stalin times' movies, about collective farms and how charming life is in them (brazen lie, such farms as were shown on screen were complimented with own relatives from the villages crawling up to the big cities in half-dead from starvation conditions). Like, on the screen you see exuberance and happy peasant faces, while such your own peasant relative sits in your own kitchen and barely drags his feet.
Anyway, even in those happy-peasant-life films pre-war, you take a village marriage scene - bride and groom sing a happy song at the wedding table:
"let enemy know, sitting in the hiding,
- We are alert! We watch his every step!
An alien land - we do not want an inch of!
But as to our own - we won't give away an inch either! "
(nice tune for a wedding table 1940, eh?)
Refrain:
Rambling by fire, shining by the gloss of steel
Our tanks will start to go on
When the gloomy bad hour of the war will strike
And homeland will call us, to save it."
Just to describe the atmosphere of suspence.
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Ah! read Menedemuses', so it seems Litvinov was shoved behind simply because Hitler wouldn't sit in the deal room with a Jewish man together.
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To Menedemus (82):
Firstly, I think you got few parts wrong, because of hindsight. Namely, communism wasn't seen as inefficient, capitalism on the other hand was seen inefficient and seen as creating instability partly due to then contemporary views on economy, but mainly due to the effects that great depression caused. I should also add that democracies were seen as weak, in almost everywhere there were doubts about democratic system. I think its misleading to think that the Soviets saw themselves as underdogs, my opinion based on reasons mentioned before, but also on their view on class struggle, that the workers in the west would turn against bourgeoisie, made them feel pretty confident on their cards.
Now the Lebensraum policy is little bit tricky. Yes, Hitler and Nazis clearly declared in Mein Kampf that it was the destiny of Germany to expand to east. However we should also note that this idea wasn't new, it had already been expressed even before the WW1. We should also note that Hitler wasn't the only one preaching propaganda to masses, Soviet leadership too knew what propaganda was. The question is, how seriously did one dictatorship take another dictatorships propaganda? Once again, our view is distorted by history as we know the end result.
I do also think that judging just based on what happened between 1939 - 1941 is insufficient to declare that Soviet Union had the same aggressive intents as Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany was an clear aggressor, that is clear. You have a point there. However I still think that Soviet Union in its core was an aggressive state that would have sooner or later attacked the west even if Nazis wouldn't have risen to power. My belief to this relies on that 1) Soviet Union continued the same nationalistic policies that the tsarist Russia had developed and they kept the empire, many newly independent states were subdued including Ukraine and Georgia, 2) Soviet Union started to prepare for war already early in 20s, 3) Communism needed expansion as declared by Stalin "the ultimate victory of socialism... can only be achieved in international scale", and 4) Soviet Union assisted Nazi Germany from early on, in days when German army had no real power in order to make western Europe unstable.
The question is, do we see Soviet Union as naturally aggressive state or do we see that it developed aggressive attitude due to the circumstances. I incline to support the first option, the Soviet Union was in its nature an aggressive state. With this position, WW2 would have happened, with or without Nazis. As I said before, I view Soviet Union to be as criminal state as Nazi Germany, both crimes against humanity.
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To Menedemus (82):
I forgot to add that the other mistake that we make when looking on the past and the actors is that we assume perfect information sharing. You make a fair point that British saw that Soviet Union's hardware and military in overall were in poor shape, but do you really think that they told that to Soviets? "Oh chaps, we would gladly ally with you, but your military and armaments are just so poor, sorry, no hard feelings?" No, you can explain British actions by the information that they possessed, but you can't use that same information to explain the actions of Soviets if you don't in doing show that they had this same information.
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Re: #85,87
Well, Alice, you might read menedemuses or not, but do you remember that old anecdote, where husband comes home late at night (wife suggests - "perhaps, you have been to a party meeting, dear?") , drunk ("celebrated party secretary's birthday after the meeting?") and wearing ladies underwear (now husband suggests - "you are so smart, - can't you think of something?).
As to Litvinov - before some "smarts" devise us "proper" explanation - the one mentioned by menedemus (he certainly gets credit for not claiming "smarts" of inventing it himself) does seem the most reasonable. My own take though is slightly different - Stalin was not as overcompetent as many suggest, but he was an extremely efficient and ruthless manager. Which means, he had understanding of the limits of his competence. Hence, relied on the competences of others. In foreign affairs it was Litvinov, and not Molotov. I think that decision to change the policy and start negotiations with Hitler, which certainly required replacing Litvinov by somebody let it be noone called Molotov - this decision was as Stalin's as it was Litvinov's own. He had realised that his attempts to forge anti-axis alliances failed. The alternative policy they chose - negotiatoing with Hitler - he hated and was not well equipped to pursue. Hence, Molotov. Remember, Litvinov (Meir Henoch Mojszewicz Wallach-Finkelstein) was not jailed, not sent to GULAG - he remained Stalin's top foreign policy advisor. He remained one of those formulating USSR's foreign policy, well at least until the end of WW2.
Now, the word "remained" in the above is crucial. Because, again, if you can think, try to figure out what was the USSR's foreign policy BEFORE May 1939, when Molotov replaced Litvinov. Clearly, this policy was Litvinov-Stalin's first choice. Great diplomat he was, Litvinov failed in pursuing it - but the great man did all he could, the failure was not fault of his. The "damage control" and change of USSR's foreign policy direction resulted.
But of course, all of the above is not interesting for those "Molotov-Ribbentrop" bashers.
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Jukka_Rohila, let the Europe get the hell finally united!
What I mean, is big states have more self-respect and are heavier in the moves, and in inertia as well. And they think what they say (one would hope), act with more dignity.
Knowing that another big one finds it an equal rival, and they participate in the heavy-weight-s arena.
The way it is at present - lots of small bity terriers - clearly contradicts Russian interests. You can't even kick one - there immediately starts a shout "Oh, the big one offended a small bity darling!"
We'd much rather prefer one big senbernard.
Every small one - like you are - hilariously invents things about us - like USSR woud have attacked Europe anyway, only a matter of time - I know! I know for sure! I read a book! - and black-mouths Russia in any way it pleases. Equalling USSR and Hitler. ugh.
The main difference is - we harmed ourselves (90%) - and aliens - (10%).
And those aliens we considered own folks, by the way.
What's that silly thing "USSR grabbed Ukraine and Georgia" ? They were part of the Russian empire for centuries. Ukraine history - FYI - equals Russian history - to a second. Kiev was the first Russian capital. So your attacks of USSR grabatisation are somewhat delayed. Complain to the empress Catherine the 2nd, or Tsar Paul, whoever it was, about Georgia, vicious woman, grabatised Georgia - a communist, what else can one say about her.
And to knight Igor or Oleg, in year 998.
What have they thought about, moving capital to Kiev? damned, damned communists.
modern Russia - FYI - didn't fall down from the sky. We are a successor to the USSR.
We still keep many things on board, including history.
And you invent things, Jukka. Now I see it's even Germany that gave you independence. How text-books change year to year, dear to see.
Why not USA?
I think you should make a short-cut, and simply print in the next year school books it was USA. Will save re-printing.
I'd think for Germany to grant you independence they'd first have to get you from us, and I don't remember a "German invasion into the Russian province of Finland". Anyway about this I don't care - feel free to consider it Germany and USA combined. But you do tend to stretch the history cloth a little bit.
I wonder what will be discussed in 60 years from now about the Russian-Georgian war in this blog.
I was impressed to hear Stalin wanted to take the whole Finland. I thought we simply wanted to snip a piece from you, to move you away further off. Because we slammed Mannerheim lines - why do I know - they are still here - beton chunks and wire - in the forest around my dacha. We've passed through - the lines are here. And no thing prevented Russians from taking Helsinki.
Same as stopping 10 miles short from Tbilisi now. We simply didn't plan to. Both times we got what we wanted, full stop.
But no doubt, in 60 years in this blog someone will say "Sarkozy saved Tbilisi, you russki-s - didn't dare to stand against great and mighty France! or something of the kind. "We've got our georgian freedom from Russia - granted by France! Vive and all. "
Rightly they say - "there is nothing as unpredicatble as the past."
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Menedemus @ 74
Yes, the same spirit. Well almost. Verne's underworld are huge caves, while Obruchevs Plutonia (1915) is a hollow earth with central sun. And the end is anticlimatic, more in the vein of Salgari: on the return trip, they are stopped by an austro-hungarian cruiser, and notified WWI has started. All the collected material and proofs of theyr adventure are lost, and they decide not to tell the story.
Alice @ 78
Yeah, british don't like russia. They may like russians, but won't ever like Russia. It's one of those weird things that just are like that. A country having gut feelings about a remote and unrelated other. Like the simpathy russians have for Italy and Spain. Hard to explain, but true.
In turn, i like british people, but don't like Britain. Go figure.
Jukka @ 80
I think you just don't understand the situation USSR was in the '30s. They had absolutelly no friends. All the strong countryes were openly hostile: Germany, GB, France... Theyr economic foundations were a cuasi feudal system followed by a civil war and a foreign intervention. They actually knew theyr lacking. They wouldn't say it, because a weak who says it's weak is two times weak.
They actually looked upto... US as the model, as symbol of modernity and advance. Maiakovski's "My Discovery of America" (1925) is a good read, and captures the times pretty well.
And what would happened had not Nazis invaded USSR... That's a completely pointless discussion. It's like discussing what would happened had the Nazis treated well the population in occupated territories: they wouldn't ve been nazis, and thus wouldn't ve invaded in the first place. "If that tiger had mane, he would be a lion". History is what happened, not what you think should've happened. And if you are going to learn lessons, please learn them from the former, not from the later.
Another good read: "How wars end" by Vassily Subotin.
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Jukka_Rohila @ 89
I never think it is a mistake to look back at history. The mistake is misinterpreting the events but then that is just being human and to err is human!
You are, of course absolutely correct to assume the British in early 1939 would not have said anything to alert the Russians to their military deficiencies.
In fact, simply because Great Britain's government in that Spring of 1939 did not rate the Russian military capability they were concerned that having Russia as an ally was a waste of space, time and effort.
What, then happened was that Stalin saw no advantages to Russia in allying with faint hearts, and moved to firm up ties with Germany (as per Molotov's arrival as the new Foreign Minister despatched to Berlin to start more firm negotiation towards the Non-Aggression Treaty with Germany).
Egor_NY @ 90,
I appreciate that I am not a "smarts". My father was a Colonel in the British Army and I have a fascination for military history which often means that my interest encompasses all history.
I would not disagree that Livinov decided that Molotov was more equal to the task of negotiating with the Germans in the late Spring of 1939. He would have even better understood that to rabid German Nazis, ngotiating with a Jew from Russia was incomprehensible.
My readings of comments attributed to Molotov though do show that Molotov was no one's idiot. In fact German archives show that in discussions with both Ribbentrop and Hitler, Molotv was more than quite blunt when it came to disagreements in 1941 when the Russia and Germany started to fall out over Romanian oil and territorial land grabs by Russia in the Baltics.
Molotov was a very good negotiator in his own right - even if he was a puppet Foreign Minister.
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Jukka I apologise, I got carried away in emotions, but you really put up so many things together against USSR - which is Russia - to a great extent, that I don't even know how to react.
I don't consider Finland a small bity terrier,
you'd be ? a medium-sized eh? white and fluffy ! /(without snow). And we are bears of course, in this fauna picture.
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Igor_NY and Menedemus,
OK I see here are heavy-weights in the military history particulars, so if you don't mind I will only be issueing occasional squeeks and encouraging shouts.
Because I don't understand the importance of these details and I conclude this is simply not for girls.
And Igor_NY what's that I agree with Menedemus, about "smarts" ? You've researched one personality in detail, so you think all are the same fascinated and can follow up from half a word falling and a hint ?
You can tell interesting stories - so tell them, at once, and you split a story into a first part with a surprise... and then the continuation. Well anyway, in fact maybe it is your manner to set riddles, I am simply not yet used to.
mostacholi,
the Britain-Russia thing I classify as the result of the spell. (anathema "for centuries of centuries", set by Ivan the Terrible onto Russian-British relations, when his marriage proposal to Queen Elizabeth was turned down.)
:-)
So until somebody from Kremlin and Westminster get married (and where would they get married, in the first place? in a Kremlin cathedral or in the Westminster?)
- forget about it.
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Jukka and Menedemus,
When USSR collapsed, Russia took on board full int'l debt on behalf of whole 15, and - USSR history.
In fact, we grabatised USSR history, easily speak "Russia did this, did that" - instead of "USSR".
Russians are less ashamed of their USSR background as one might think. Not very much at all.
If to think about it - lots of provinces - then -republics - then - countries - fought the 1st WW, and the civil war, and suffered from Stalin, and built the USSR, and fought "the 2nd Germanskaya war", and the Cold War.
But since they don't want to own it - the better for us!
It is gracious of you to say "modern young Russians are not the same as USSR was, they carry no responsibility for what their parents and grandpaents and greatgrandparents did or did not...
But what I actually think - we have paid debts to the IMF and other banks - for all, right?
Others wish to dis-own the 20th century history, right?
We can have full history as ours!
First try to get equipped with such a history, as USSR' s was - in the 20th century!
Will feed generations of international historians for centuries ahead.
To get such a history - try to live through it!
As local stand-up comedians sometimes say
"Europe? a squirrel fell down from the tree.
Headline news." :-)
Now we are entering the new times, as you have noticed - interesting for historians again (means bad for normal people). so you might see what I mean
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Yes, sounds right :-)
But just imagine had Elizabeth accepted: all those BBC televission miniseries with lords AND boyars!
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70. Menedemus wrote:
'alexius_3 @ 66
Yes, the numbers are irrelevant as the Russian weaponry was old, dysfunctional and very obsolete. The Russians did not yet have the T-42 tank which was the first tank capable of withstanding the armor penetration of the German Panzer tanks nor were the huge numbers of troops capable, let alone trained, for offensive action. Many simply surrendered or retreated before the German Blitzkreig.
he Russians have always relied on numbers but in the year 1941 the numbers were ill-equipped,
You can quote numbers of troops, tanks and aircraft until you are blue in the face but the fact is that the Russian military of 1941 was unfit to withstand the German Blitzkrieg.'
Do you mean the T-34 tank?
In June 1941 the Red Army had about 1,800 the T-34 and KV-1 modern tanks wich outclassed 1,400 Germans the Panzer III and Panzer IV medium tanks.
60% of all Germans tanks were very obsolete the T-I, T-II and T-38(t) light tanks .
Germany did not have in 1941 neither the Panther tanks nor the Tiger tanks
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Re: #93
>I appreciate that I am not a "smarts".
OK, this is at the limit of my unerstanding of the nuances of the great and powerful English language. Does this mean that my referral to menedemus not joining those "smarts" (quotes are crucial) who invent all sorts of unplausible explanations to simple facts (see the anecdote in the first place) was percieved derogatory? If so I apologize. It meant to be positive. Especially these days, where in the context of Georgian conflict so many different "smarts", "political analysts", "think tank" employees and even common people act like that wife, inventing gracious explanations for what are evidences of disgraceful and stupid behavior.
> Molotov was a very good negotiator in his own right - even if he was a puppet Foreign Minister.
Of course, Molotov was not at all an incompetent idiot - that is why Stalin, who as I have said, was ruthless and extremly efficient manager, have put him in charge in that case (even though he personally despised M.).
This, however, is largely beyond the issue of my comment, which was to point out that all those accusations, which I read and hear quite frequently, and which are based on bashing M.-R. pact are shallow and irrelevant. The pact has manifested a dramatic change in the long-term Stalin-Litvinov's policy that USSR was pursuing for many years before Munich and events of 1938-1939. Saying that this policy was agressive and that M.-R. pact was its logical manifestation is ... Well, decide for yourself what it is.
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alexius, where do you get those numbers from?
The total production run trough 1940 was of 115 T-34. Hundred-fiftheen.
The vast majority of the T-34 produced before war's start hadn't reached front units. The ones thad did (in the few hundreds trough all the army) lacked spare parts, and fundamentally, trained crews (mechanic-drivers in the first place). In other words, they weren't ready for front service. In fact, existed the possibility of the whole T-34 production line being rolled back and switched to the production of the T-34M, a modified version with torsion bars suspension and 3-man turret. When war started, the order went "churn-out what we have". Plain T-34 it was.
The rest and bulk of the tank fleet where older BT and T-26. In huge numbers. The most of which had depleted theyr motor-resource and where for all acounts worned-down hulks parked at depots waiting the furnace to be reprocessed. And let's not forget the "battleship" T-35s.
The airforce had the same panorama. Huge ammounts of "good in theyr time but obsolete today" planes (I-15, I-16 and SB) and the replacements were flying only as a handfull of prototypes (I-17, Yak-1, LaGG).
Man, stop reading Suvorov, really. There are actual documents now to be read.
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100. , mostacholi wrote:
The total production run trough 1940 was of 115 T-34. Hundred-fiftheen.'
The total production of the T-34 in 1941 was 2,800 and the KV-1 was 1,121
The production of the Panther tanks was 0 The production of the Tiger tanks was 0
The great bulk of the Germans tank fleet in June 1941 where obsolete T-I , T-II and T-38(t) light tanks.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (in general):
I think that there is a problem in this discussion. What follows is my guess on what the problem is. Feel free to reject, object, amend or even agree.
For Russia, WW2 is a coin with two sides...
In other side, that we haven't discussed, largely as there is no need or dispute with it, is that the war was a struggle for a survival for the whole nation. Had the Nazis won it would have lead to death of tens of millions and either enslavement or extermination of the whole nation. The costs of the war were great in all aspects of life, from civil casualties to countless deaths in the battle field. I can't imagine the suffering and the sacrifices that were made in order to just survive. I can understand that for nation to go into a brink of extinction and then rebound back is a turning point in history for the whole nation. We should acknowledge that if Stalin hadn't been the leader, if there hadn't been USSR, the war would have been lost. I can see and understand that there is great value and respect given to those generations that experienced and fought the war.
Now the other side of the coin, that we were discussing, and that is usually discussed is the other side.
USSR was an aggressive state, it build an empire to itself even before WW2. It enslaved and murdered its own people. It was, if not totally but at least partly, responsible for the WW2. During the WW2, the red army was responsible for countless war crimes and where ever it went it brought suffering and death with it. It was tool of cold blooded murder. The victory over Nazis didn't just mean end to the long struggle for Russians, but it meant 60 year enslavement for tens of millions people in central and eastern Europe, it meant continued repression in USSR and it meant constant threat for the rest of the world.
I think that the problem is that many Russians don't either want to acknowledge the criminal side or try to defend it, largely because they can't put these things together. In essence how can you in same turn give valuation and respect that fought the war and in the time remember that they too took part to serious war crimes, that they were fighting in the side of an criminal government...
My take is that you can and you have to give proper valuation and respect to those who fought and struggled in the war. In the same time you can and you have to acknowledge and condemn the crimes that were committed both by the red army and the USSR. People died for their nation, for their families, for their loved ones, those sacrifices can't be taken away, that's the truth. Now you remember that wars happen, people happen, acknowledging and condemning the other side of the coin, as I said, doesn't diminish the other side, after all they and us are just humans trying to survive life.
Of course USSR wasn't just about the war, of course it had great citizens, artist and scientist, and it was an super power that achieved many great things including the first space flight. These are things that you can and you should be proud of. In the same time you still have to remember that neither of these things can't make up for the very corrupt and criminal nature of USSR.
The big problem next of course is to acknowledge what part did Russia as nation as a culture play in the act of USSR. In away this reminds a lot the situation that the Germans had after the WW2. They had a very strong militaristic and authoritarian lines in their culture and they had ideas of racial superiority and condemnation of lesser people that weren't just creation or ideas of Nazis, those things were deeper in the culture. For Germans recovering from the WW2 have been quite straight forward, as an defeated nation, they had no choice but to accept that something was deeply wrong not only in the dictatorship that they but in more deeper level in the culture. They have acknowledge and tried very hard to remedy this to make sure it never happens again, that never the same crimes are committed by Germans. Now my take, my view, of Russian culture is that the very things that defined not just Soviet Union but also current government and tsarist Russia are extreme nationalism and uncontrolled xenophobia. These things haven't been acknowledged and virtually nothing have been made to correct these.
I think this is the real problem in this discussion. You feel that the memory of past generations are desecrated by criticism levelled against USSR. In the other side many people only remember the crimes that USSR did without acknowledging the other side of the coin. This whole issue will stay as a problem until people can see both sides of the coin.
PS. You do know that I admire you for your passion and feelings, I also enjoy this whole conversation very much. I also feel that its important to just let it all out, even if it would mean heated comments, as that in the end is the only way to start to understand what the other side thinks and feels.
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Jukka,
I appreciate you aren't angry with me and have moral resources to continue the discussion.
I think now it gets better, only 2 points - the two-sided 2ndWW coin and "extreme nationalism and uncontrolled xenophobia".
I'd really prefer to discuss USSR XXth century point of accusation you make after another, because with the whole century in one post - all simply stay at own opinions, for it's impossible to process and absorb.
The coin.
USSR 2ndWW - isn't a coin.
A coin has 2 equal sides.
And your point isn't even this - you write that the winning of the war doesn't outweigh the bad side.
So, let's imagine a weigh.
Onto one side you put Russian - or USSR - people achievements - for the sake of humanity, onto the other plate we pile "crimes and death Red Army caused whenever it went and enslaving of millions innocent Europeans.
Onto achievements side we seem to agree that if not for Russians - Europe would have lost the war.
(from own perspecetive I also add that we have liberated ourselves and saved own Russia/USSR. sorry, we primarily fought for that.)
From this plate you wish to minus the fact that USSR won the war.
Because, by winning the war, USSR preserved itself in all its beaty and continued to give hell to own and foreign folk.
I leave winning the war on the good side, again, sorry, because by your logic it would have been better for Europe and for Russia if we lost.
Jukka. we couldn't lose and win the war at once. ok? either we win it or we lose it.
If you seriously think it'd have been better for all if USSR lost - hardly anyone else in Europe except Germany would agree with you.
So one plate is victory. The other one is crimes. Mentally combine all the bad data you ever encountered in all sources. Put in Katyn' Polish officers shot. I'd put it 5000 people. and don't think you'll put it more. Put in Hungary 1956. the number? Put in Prague spring. this I know. 18.
Since all US web pages re the war - in my experience - are full of stories of German civililians who survived Russian "invasion", how they raped and robbed and as you have out it "carried death whenever they went" - add this as well.
I am not going to be petty cash miniscule in correcting your figures. Not in the Russian nature. And as a woman - I won't write off rapings, never.
On "causing the death - whenever they went - you must mean Eastern Europe and Germany. Honestly, I don't think you'll be able to list in one civillian death there, caused by the Red Army. With women and looting - I think your estimations are invariably blown out of proportion - whatever they are.
Sorry, we didn't have a less barbarian army than the one we had. It was not awfully civilised - was not regular - these were peasants and left-overs drafted in - for normal drafting folk and normal draft ages were killed much earlier, and we had people resources depleted by the end of the war.
We'd also prefer to enter Europe in white gloves - but there were none left.
Re looting and rapings - you may feel better knowing that all who raped and looted were shot. They paid by life, because the moment commandment realised it is a fact - which was pretty quick - in Stalin times 1 report was enough a justifucation to shoot down on the spot - and many reported in each other - so looters and rapists were shot. As simple as that. Without any court sessions, delays or fancy hearings.
So, give me the number of deaths we caused, in civillians - in Eastern Europe and Berlin.
Looting offence in Germany I won't allow you to add on the plate. Germans in Russia robbed by trains and trucks, all houses stripped to bare walls - absolutely all - without one exception.
So, 6000? 7000? how many.
On the other plate don't forget to put 30 million we paid to win that war. Or you think they died because they stumbled over a tree trunk? or slipped on ice?
If they didn't die - the British and the Americans would have to die in their place.
And please add lives we saved - of the same Eastern Europeans. Unless you think they enjoyed German occupation. Really the way you think - one would think they enjoyed Germans, until nasty Russians came.
It is not a "coin".
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By the way. Clean forgot. Drezden. Hirochima. Nagasaki. How many civillians dead there. in the same war.
but sure this is nil, compared to the "death Red Army caused - whenever they went in Eastern Europe and Germany.
Why do I think the three cities above would have preferred the deadly Red Army. with their criminal lootings. and rapings.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (103) and (104):
This isn't a calculus problem.
Lets put it in another way... Nazi Germany... in the negative side war, holocaust, deaths of tens of millions, enslavement etc.. in the positive side autobahns, Volkswagen Beetle, anti-smoking programs and Hitler, he was vegetarian, didn't smoke or drink and was kind to animals... hmmm... lets calculate... should it be somewhat in negative side, somewhat zero or somewhat positive? ..No. This isn't calculus problem, bad is bad, good is good, they don't add up each others.
Also two wrongs don't make one right. You can use explanation "oh, but they started first, our army just murdered and raped after them, and anyway those numbers surely are less" or "well, yeah, murdering and raping, but you know, they could have atom bomb dropped on their back, I think it was better that they only had murders and rapes" ...No no no... a crime is a crime. Making two crimes doesn't make one crime justice.
It is a coin. Coin has two sides, if you try to destroy the another, the another one goes with it.
I won't go start calculating all the lives that were lost and all the suffering that went on by the red army and USSR. There is no point, as I said this isn't a calculus problem. What this is an acknowledgement problem, acknowledging that crimes were made and condemning them and trying to make sure that the same crimes aren't committed ever again.
USSR deserves credit, but that credit doesn't make it any less criminal and vile that it was. You have to acknowledge both sides of the coin and live with that.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators.
To who ever complained about my comment (105):
You must be kidding, where did my post brake the House Rules?
Let me guess...
Autobahn... A non English word you say! Breach of House Rules! But alas, there is no official dictionary or authority to acknowledge what is an English word or not. Autobahn is a well known word, it has a single meaning and people know what is meant when it is used.
Let me guess the real reason...
1) You are Volkswagen Beetle owner and can't stand people mentioning Hitler and Beetle in the same sentence? Oh please, Hitler, hippies, whatever, it still is good car in its own.
2) You are a vegetarian and think that all who eat meat are mean and evil people and all who are vegetarian are good, kind and loving. Newsflash, Hitler was an vegetarian.
3) You are from anti-smoking establishment... and well... look on the point two. Message to you: start smoking again, you will get a better sense of humour.
4) You are an animal lover and your puppy eyes shed tiers on even thinking that Hitler too was an animal person. Newsflash, Hitler had a dog which he liked very much.
Which one of these was it? Please people, it takes aeons before posts that are complained are moderated again and it really hampers down discussion.
PS. Did I mention that Hitler secretly enjoyed Disney animations, Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. Oh, and hey, Henry Ford and Hitler were best friends for ever, Hitler even had a picture of him in his work desk!
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You have to ask the question, Britain's foreign policy is it being run for the benefit of Britain or the USA/Israel, perhaps the greatest example of that was Britain's involvement with the illegal invasion of Iraq. The news that David Miliband prevented the EU from opening trade talks with Russia is just the latest example. Has no one mentioned to Miliband that the world is facing a global recession? It is perhaps time that he stopped allowing his personal prejudices interfering with Britain's foreign policy?
Britain's "problem" with Russia seems to be based on two matters, firstly Russia's determination in stopping the genocide of South Ossetians by Georgia. Georgia of course being a country that was supplied by Israel in all sorts of highly destructive weapons for use in their pre-planned attack.
Secondly the fact that the Russians refuse to allow extradition for a "suspect" in the Litveneko case.
At this point it's important to remember the history behind this, Communism right from the Bolshevik Revolution was controlled, dominated and run by Jews and that would include the gulags. That continued right up to the time of Putin when the money lender's tables were overturned resulting in numerous Jewish Russian oligarchs seeking refuge in the USA, Israel and unfortunately the UK. These people destroyed the Soviet Union's economy and brought Russia to it's knees, much in the same manner as we now see happening in the USA. A high proportion of these Russian oligarchs are now wanted by Interpol on charges such as corruption and money laundering, Britain refuses to extradite a single one of them. There can be little doubt that Litveneko was merely a sacrificial lamb for the purpose of worsening British/Russian relations.
At this point it's important to remember that the ambitious David Miliband, like his father, was at one time a Jewish Marxist, perhaps it's nostalgia for the olde days that now drives Britain's foreign policy.
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103. WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
‘The other one is crimes. Mentally combine all the bad data you ever encountered in all sources. Put in Katyn' Polish officers shot. I'd put it 5000 people. and don't think you'll put it more. ‘
In the spring of 1940 about 14,500 Polish military officers and policemen and 7,300 Polish civilian prisoners were murdered without any trial by the Stalin's order.
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#97 mostacholi
I saw a TV (Culture channel, that one only without advertisements), historians' round table on this marriage proposals letters - really - a funny story.
And dear old Terrible must have been truly in love - persisted, and kept writing, since he had her small portrait and got somehow charmed. He tried to make the point he is, like, an excellent fiancee, no financial problems, good measure of lands, wages no wars at present, so it's not that he wants something from England. And that England she can keep at own disposal, should she accept, will stay his spouse personal property. However nasty historians questioned Terrible's best intentions.
Because here and there there shined through the idea how Europe will be nicely squeezed on both sides, from Russia in the East and England in the West, and thus pronged into one tsardom in its new natural borderlines between England and Russia. Thus not standing in the way of fluent English-Russian communications, should Elizabeth wish to travel to her dowry lands often - surely nothing should stand silly in the way of the Kremlin wife roads!
I am afraid Brussels doesn't watch Russian TV channel Culture often, otherwise they'd add to the banner with the stars one small Kremlin tower star - in the honour of the first world inventor of the EU "in its natural borders".
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Re: Katyn' execution
Alexius_3 et al who like to chew on Katyn' execution of poles by NKVD.
Please, put this incident in perspective of those days events (is it not just another rather small-scale crime of Stalin's regime by the hands of NKVD?).
To get perspective on it, I suggest you think of irresponsible, stupid and to a large extent criminal actions of the London-based Polish government in exile and the Armija Krajova allied with it. These guys (who these days are often even glorifoed in Poland) after breaking all diplomatic ties with the USSR over that same Katyn' incident and hence without any reason to expect any help from soviet army (well, the story goes they wanted the "wefreeusourselves" thing, but poles were not serbs, plus they did not have Tito to lead them), so they initiated disastrous Warsaw uprising, which lead to the butchering of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS poles and nearly complete destruction of Warsaw by nazis. Was it worth it? Did they do favor to polish people? Are you trying to follow their example chewing on the Katyn' story, which certainly by all measures is a small and insignificant incident on the scale of those days events, and in particular on the scale of the suffering caused to polish people by stupid, irresponsible and simply criminal actions of their own politicians (following Stalin's example on how to treat their own people?), who initiated the Warsaw uprising.
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alexius_3,
original Katyn - by Smolensk - had about 4500 Polish murdered.
By now the word Katyn = cold-blooded murder. The term Katyn stands for mass murder in all POW camp crimes (prizoners from Poland East (Poland West was Germany), from Ukraine West and from Belorussia West). Together must be 20,000, the least.
Wikipedia's in English version - Katyn massacre - says about it all.
I am not going to defend Russia/USSR on this crime, who do you take me to be.
I wish all who did it are put to the wall.
The likely thing alas they are dead by now.
That their names then are published in big letters across the country, so that their children are ashamed of them, and don't think they come from decent families.
Well. I don't know what for.
That a deterrent is placed for the future - when you murder - you won't get cover up.
Do you think I am mad and think it is only Stalin to blame in the country.
If 30 million people are dead in Stalin camps - it means there were another 30 million, who reported on their neighbours and work colleagues to KGB, to get an additional room in the communial apartment, to get their jobs, who caught people breaking at night in the apartments, tortured, questioned, kept the files, guarded in the camps behind the wire and in prizons, and shot them.
Country is up to the ears in such people, and children of these people, brought up in the best family traditions!
Gorbachyov simply chickened out to open KGB archives, to open public access to the names, employees and actual excutors.
He thought that half of the country will go kill the other half of the country at once.
And current powers seem to be guided by the same idea. Or the new relations with Poland - as if something can spoil them further on! KGB archive still closed.
With Katyn - in particular - and as the wider term - the process in the court crawls like a caterpillar, 15 years, stops, starts again, only 200 bodies were excavated. The case is filed by the Polish relatives, lead by a Russian advocate, assisted by Russian society "Memorial". The General Prosecutor office of Russia is hard to sew, and the process is opened against them. Just this September I think they refused to present to the court room 116 out of 183 volumes of Soviet POW camps evidence - as these are classified "State Secret" - because they can rule about - what is in essence - volumes of evidence - against them! This decision was contra-petitioned; the process goes, but very slow. All hard data available to the Polish (documents) - ever - was sent by Yeltsin as a persinal favour to Lech Walensa. He simply tore it out of the archives, and sent. Next rulers didn't have good relations, so all is there, still lies under the stamp "State secret."
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110. Egor_NY wrote:
'Re: Katyn' execution
Please, put this incident in perspective of those days events (is it not just another rather small-scale crime of Stalin's regime by the hands of NKVD?).
Are you trying to follow their example chewing on the Katyn' story, which certainly by all measures is a small and insignificant incident'
It is impossible to understand why were Soviets leaders within 50 years categorically denying any Soviet’s responsibility for this ‘a small and insignificant incident ‘ as the premeditated murder of 22,000 people
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megaMichaelUK
On this ice it is very dangerous to tread.
Not only in politically correct places, but even in Russia it is a no-no.
Discussed in the good old style Soviet time "in the kitchen".
By definition, Jewish people massacred in such quantities in the 2ndWW - their some selected elites, or we don't know what it is -anyway, something uniting some unknown folks of Jewish origin - can not ever work internationally to own unknown ends and benefits. In any organised or independent way.
Looking unrelated things up in the Russian internet I once came upon a site that seemingly lists for years simply patronimics (in the Russia case) and surnames - of people who did in the world this and that. Can say I was impressed by this small script, added on for years and years. Learned that even Iraq is doomed - the way who of the locals rules it now.
The site though is visited by many totally unawaress Jewish people, with who all agree that an ordinary person of any nationality in this world - knows the hell nil - of what really takes place. And we are in one boat in it, together with the Jewish folks.
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WebAliceinwonderland you are a little difficult to understand, I suspect you are using a web auto translator, but I get the basic meaning of what you are saying and
I agree with you. Russians I have communicated with are still very frightened to even discuss what happened during the Bolshevik/Communist years.
While everyone is reminded weekly about the Holocaust very few people it seems have even heard of the Holodomor. That is just one example where the history books have been re-written to portray certain groups of people in a light totally opposite to reality. But we are getting to the point where these things will have to be discussed and the people responsible named. It is still difficult to do that with the main media sources compared to regular internet news and comments outlets..
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Re: 112, and other Katyn' propagandists
So, you are more bothered by Katyn' than by the tragedy of Warsaw uprising, whose human cost was at least 10 times that of Katyn'? What about Volyn' massacres, whose human toll on poles was at least 2-3 times that of Katyn'? Why choose Katyn', the smallest of those human tragedies of the WWII? Is it just to spit the venom?
How pathetic though.
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megaMichaelUK,
I am sorry I must have expressed myself in too vague terms. Or may be mis-understood you. (web translators, no, I am trying to manage myself, as I can).
I think it's the same, everywhere, that opinions in blogs are sharper than in the main media outlets, as you wrote. Chances are these would always go ahead ?
Communist past we aren't scared to discuss; the present is much more problematic. What did you wish to say about Golodomor/ (by) Hunger expired/ Holodomor in English ? Locally of course people know, so many died, how can you not know. But abroad - must be what you write, not aware. And not aware of many more pages in the USSR 20th century - we simply didn't communicate for 70 years, and not much during Perestroyka either. So there is huge gap, to catch up, on the old news.
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WebAliceinwonderland sorry I questioned your use of English, my guess now is that you are either Russian or perhaps Ukrainian and therefore I must commend you on your ability, I wish I were able to communicate with you in your own language. Earlier you wrote "On this ice it is very dangerous to tread " , I think I understand what you meant by that, but discussing certain events are not dangerous as far as I'm concerned and I therefore presumed that they were dangerous for you.
There are many things I would like to discuss with you and to discover your Russian point of view, but on a BBC website that would be impossible.
Did you know for example that the Bolshevik revolution was financed by a certain group in the west?
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Shrugs.
Those were crazy times. Britain was planning massacring "savages" with chemical weapons. US was segregated and hanging blacks was a sport of sorts. Japan's sport was beheading chinese.
And all those east and central european countryes which were petty fascist empires. But thinking they were great empires. All these peoples behaving as if WWI hadn't happened, and longing for theyr glorious imperial past. Little dogs barking.
Those victim Poles? Ask Ucrainians. Got much more that they bargained, tough. There were bigger dogs in the neighborhood.
And later it were hungarians and bulgarians that were mopped up around Stalingrad. Well, Italians and Spaniards too, but as i sayd russians have a soft spot for them.
Russia inflicting pain? You bet. There are two kinds of countryes which are best in inflicting pain: those who had suffered a lot, like Russia or Israel, and those who hadn't suffered enough, like the US or prewar Japan.
And all those numbers are actually meaningless. Massacres are cualitative, not cuantitative. It either is or isn't, and number massaging won't give you an insigth on theyr nature. It's a sign of our times that we get consolation or motivation from knowing the exact amount, as if that made it more or less real.
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megaMichaelUK,
glad you wrote back quickly; tonight all discussion got frozen somehow. a strange idea - is all Britain in the pubs now? :-)
You are right, I am absolutely Russian; but as it happens with people - a little bit English as well and a little bit Ukrainian. and a little bit Polish - that's the combination of 4 grandparents! But the Russian side won. must be simply because all of them were in Russia.
With the Jewish theme you suggested for discussion, yes, I was scared, that's why wrote a very mysterious answer. Not of my side of controls, not of BBC's - more, kind of, a self-censorship, self-imposed.
I don't know how it is on your side, but Russians here are afraid to propose any nationality-dependent explanations of any events. There have been many out-breaks of racial hatred, for example, here, in St. Petersburg, against dark-skinned students, gastarbeiters, status seem not to matter - simply skinheads attack in the streets. This is very painful in the city that suffered so much from fasism, all wonder where we got such youngsters from, and how to explain it. This makes a background in which you are afraid to offend others on the basis of nationality, and act with double precautions. Besides, the Jewish people in particular were lessened in rights in the USSR times, that is - officially - there were no rules, but un-officially - there were limits, in quantities, for Jewish people in top positions. Like, some enterprise, institute, or a plant/factory - doesn't matter - shouldn't have had more than ? I don't know Jewish in top jobs. For a company director of any industrial enterprise the nearly absolute requirement was - anybody - Uzbek, Tajik - but save God - Jewish.
This is because in case of the war (expected any other day with United States) - key industries and important for country's survival organisations (which included basically all of them - with the exception of all art and music and cinema and TV and media - strangely - related) - were to be headed by "own" people.
All the Jewish were viewed by the Communist Party as cosmopolitans, able to live historically in any country - like, Russia's survival is not the key in their life agenda, if Russia loses to USA - they don't have a stake in this. This didn't happen at once in the USSR, but ? I don't know - approx. after Israel was created. Israel was considered a baby of USA and UK, enemy capitalistic countries, so Israeli were mentally joined over to "the other side".
Add to the picture the pogroms in Ukraine in the pre-revolution Russia. And the line of settlement - where the Jewish can live in Russia, where not. I don't remember where the geographic line passed, besides nobody minded it seemingly at all, but still such a line existed in official tsar time documents and papers. And the fact that in tsar time Russia Jewish people had a glass ceiling in positions in the army. None Jewish could be a captain, or I think even a lieutenant. Such a past combined makes any Russian, the moment you are born, feel combined guilty before the Jewish, because either one's great grandparents didn't take his/her great grandparents to the army captains, or one's parents didn't give the Jewish people top jobs.
In the 2nd WW, at least, Russians feel no guilt about the Jewish, as we were killed by Hitler with the same enthusiasm - as slavs. Russian grandparents (roughly), or great-grand - dependin on age - also seem not guilty at all either, revolution time and up to the 2nd WW.
This creates a kind of a tension, when a Russian speaks about the Jewish.
I think it is important to know that the first Jewish people have appeared in Russia only 200 years ago, much much later, than in the rest of Europe. I still wish to buy that book, one of Solzhenitsyn's latest, called "200 years together." and read what's in there.
There was a huge scandal here when it was published, all accused him in anti-semitism. But what's in there really - I don't know. I don't think anything of the kind - simply - in his usual manner - he spoke straightforward about country's wounds, of one kind or another. And touched a taboo theme. Why it is a taboo - I don't know. I feel that way, and began thinking only when you asked.
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109. WebAliceinwonderland:
"I am afraid Brussels doesn't watch Russian TV channel Culture often, otherwise they'd add to the banner with the stars one small Kremlin tower star - in the honour of the first world inventor of the EU "in its natural borders"."
Alice, unlike the US flag the EU flag doesn't change to add extra stars. Carry on reading and learning. You're in danger of becoming "drunk" on uninhibited talk.
I can see that you're enjoying yourself here but slow down a little. Maybe stop to eat and sleep occasionally?
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mostacholi,
this reminds me - I once was silly (well. "once!") sent an e-mail to friends abroad on a V-day. simply with statistics of 2ndWW, loss by country, split by civillian loss and army loss. But that was not the thing - a got a hurricane of corrections, the British tried to correct me - re what countries were Hitler side, what - Russian side. Absolutely unsuspecting, I broke the countries into 2 groups - "allies" side and "wrong" side. I thought everyone in the world shares this Russian understanding where was who.
!!! not in the least, no, not at all.
I was explained Italy was "good" side, and Spain, and Hungary and Bulgaria, and I don't remember where else we disagreed. I seem to remember Greece no one could sort out - to which side. Norway and Finland all Britain included into "friends".
All kept explaining me it is my Soviet/Russian propaganda that fooled me, poor girl, doesn't know who is who.
Meanwhile, here in St. Petersburg, the suburbs, I mean, during the siege, Catherine palace was taken by Spanish troops, who also kind of liked Russian girls in the nearby villages way too much! to put it softly. so post war there was a whole generation of spaniards here. and if a child was too suspiciously dark-skinned - all enquired a happy mum - half-jokingly - (oh, of course!) "not a spaniard, by any way? "
Meanwhile approx. 10 friends from Britain at once kept explaining me it is my wrong Russian books that tell me Italian and Spanish regiments invaded Russia and fought us. To say that Russians don't need any "books", about the war - nobody understands. If, say, a brother of your grandma, fought Bulgarians face to face - and has most vivid memoirs of the fight - what the hell one needs books for?
With the soft spot you are right. Once been to a flamenk Gades? Godes? ballet here, visiting, long years ago. They put down the curtian and "left forever" exactly 18 times.
I mean the applause was such raging, that having bowed and said all good-byes and collected all flowers, the audince stormed, they opened the curtain again, and danced one more piece for about 5 minutes. And like that - 18 times.
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#120 greypolyglot
Shame on me; chattered so much that was asked out. Will try stop smoking and BBC.
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Alice:
About Jews in USSR, i remember an artcle in the israeli site haaretz.com. They talked about the cultural conflict between the inmigrants from the USSR and the rest of Europe. There was an interview to a elder soviet war veteran. Paraphrasing him it was something like "I don't understand why everybody here cries so much about the holocaust. holocaust this and holocaust that. When i was young i drove into Berlin on top of a tank and killed a lot of germans. I fought a war and won it, so cry me a river". Those weren't his words, but that was the idea.
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WebAliceinWonderland thank you for your reply, my goodness you stay up late at night. In 1920 Sir Winston Churchill wrote in the Illustrated Sunday Herald.
"There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. " http://www.scribd.com/doc/200538/1920-Churchill-Zionism-versus-Bolshevism-on-Illuminati-OCR-by-MatRoX
Occasionally there's even a mention in the Israeli media;
Stalin's Jews http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
I have to say I've often wondered why Hitler invaded the Soviet Union before securing his western flank before even the USA was dragged screaming into participation. There can be little doubt that Hitler, as Churchill had warned previously, was totally aware of Stalin's genocidal actions in both the USSR and the Ukraine. Call Hitler whatever names you want, but there was no doubt that he was vehemently anti-Communist and also embarrassingly now , a devout Christian, and that like Churchill he associated Judaism with Communism. Stalin of course made the so called "anti-semitism " illegal , he even set up an Jewish Autonomous Oblast, the first Jewish state if you like. Stalin himself was Jewish enough, if alive today, to get automatic immigration approval into Israel.
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megaMichaelUK,
Re. #117
You wrote, "Did you know for example that the Bolshevik revolution was financed by a certain group in the west?"
I have been hoping to read an expansion of your opinion from this sentence?
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Well the answer to the question , unbelievably, is basically Wall Street, including at least two of the Governors of the Federal Reserve Bank. William B. Thompson and Paul Warburg. Otto H. Kahn, Mortimer L. Schiff, and Jerome J. Hanauer. Kuhn, Loeb and Company, all out of New York.
You might find this interesting http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/lines.htm#04
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megaMichaelUK @ #126
Thank you for responding so quickly.
Actually, I am not surprised by your response
A good read is "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution", Anthony C. Sutton (1974) (* I believe that the text is available online having come across it a while back!)
Sutton's book promotes exactly that idea.
Although it is of importance to note that there was one country who had the most to gain from a revolution in Russia and that was Germany - fighting a war at that time on two fronts (which was the same problem that the Nazi Germans faced from 1941 through to 1945 and potentially led to the downfall of the Third Reich) and which would (and did!) benefit from the peace treaty between Germany and Russia that was signed the following year in March 1918 - Sutton's book does allude to the influence of German Intelligence upon the various US Financiers (not least of all Kuhn, Loeb, Schiff, etceteras)and their influence upon and support for Trotsky and Lenin.
It should also be mentioned that the American Financiers had an interest in fermenting a Russian Revolution as America had joined the First World War and more American commitment meant more US Tax Dollar money spent upon US Defense Industry . . . . . but who would dare suggest that the American Nation profits from wars!
One can never actually read history without prejudice as one's own prejudices do add colour to the black and white of history. However Sutton's book does add a bit of interesting colour to the reason why the Russian's had to endure 70 years of the Russian Soviet System and probably still suffers from those machinations of both Wall Street Financiers and Germany Intelligence of so many, many years ago.
On an interesting note, many of those Wall Street Bankers' family fortunes were invested into the merger of "Kuhn, Loeb & Co" with "Lehman Brothers" in 1977 and that bank has been the one Jewish-American Finance Bank allowed to fail and vanish in the USA Credit Crunch in 2008 - so some small measure of "what one sows so one reaps "comeuppance for past-Family member immoral misdeeds I suppose.
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Menedenus,
the traces of american and german hands in stirring
the 1917 bolshevik trouble is well known .
the bank side of the story is not so . (I am now thinking about reading Suttons book. maybe you have the link.)
But it just underlines the fact that behind every
political cry there is a financial interest.
So.. tell me ,please, why they do not cry about China as much as they cry about
Russia???
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#123 mostacholi
"holocaust this holocaust that. when i was young i drove into Berlin on top of a tank and killed a lot of germans. I fought a war and won it, so cry me a river."
being a victor-er is a great feeling.
(timely we somersaulted the tsars, with their "no captains, no lieutenants" rule :-) to this day no christmas, birthdays equal to v-day in our calendar. (yearly questionnaires - which holiday...etc.? every teenager, like - ha! 9th of May! ). keeps you hoovering.
#124 megaMichaelUK
:-) i think my internal clock is set "a very late owl, GMT". causes me trouble since age of 1. wake-up to work could stand exclus. by classifying it a very late evening.
Church. must have mis-looked things up in Lenin's fam. tree. we think he was fr Swedish Jewish folks.
devout Christian" made many wonder. if God can stand Buchenwald without a wink - is he sure himself he exists at all?
though we here believe in "Russky God", there is such a strange, separately standing notion. who saved us in war. we can't explain by anything else.
Jewish autonomous region, was a good attempt. "our reply to Israel". still exists. but as it is hell knows where in Siberia, not one sensible Jewish person ever went there. don't even know who lives there.
Menedemus #127
have acquaintn., aunt Zoe, in Mosc. Right hand of the Russian patriarch. she didn't read sutton I suspect, but from what I heard so far - dear me! she'd find with you understanding.
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" if God can stand Buchenwald without a wink - is he sure himself he exists at all?"
You know God is only credited when things go right, as we often say in England "Thank God for that", he never gets blamed when things go wrong. Ask the inmates in Guantanamo, the relatives of 2.7 million dead in Iraq since 1991, the 12 million or so that lost their lives in the Indian subcontinent during the British colonial days.
Besides history is always written by the victors, never the losers.
As for the Siberian Jewish homeland, I'm sure the people that made the "desert bloom" would have no problem with the tundra and bearing in mind that only around 15% of Israeli Jews have a genetic connection with the Middle East it would be a more suitable homeland or though I can think of better places.
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zhanetta @ #128
I don't have the link to hand but Google would no doubt turn it up.
As to China, my guess is that if there is any underhand connivance in the coming to power the Maoists then historians will reveal the "facts" in due course but to much applause and incredulity in equal measure.
The problem with history, even with the theory of the Wall Street Financiers supporting Trotsky and Lenin, is that historians can view "facts" differently - one persons historical fact is another persons conspiracy theory and yet another persons revision of history . . . . you could rarely get three historians in one room and get them agree the cause or effect of past events as being one and the same events.
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menedemus and mostacholi and zhanetta and all in this thread,
I thought - have you heard of the "passionarity theory" ? I will try to look up in wiki or I don't know where. Awfully interesting stuff, author - Lev Gumilev (not Tolstoy, another leo), and I forgot the key numbers there. It's a theory about empires collapse and creation, embracing all european and asian countries, all in this continent. that at some moment a kind of a passion or energy gets built up forgot how in a nation, and it simply starts to spread like a dough, or they do something, forgot what. nothing new in this approach, except time-scales are given in the "passion" approach (Leo Gumilev was a historian), happens to each of us once in 350 years? or something. it's tied with the wave theory.
so easy to check up for everyone when it is your time to do something - or better don't even start it, in this stage of the cycle one is prescribed to be busy with other things.
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Ethnic and historic theory describing historical process as interaction of developing ethnos – es - with the own landscape, and with other ethnos-es.
An ethnic system is:
- a biologically defined congregation of chaps like leo pride or an ant-house
- a form of adaptation to a landscape
- consists of mutually complimenting groups of people, recognizing their unity and mentally contradicting themselves to other ethnic systems
- groups have a similar stereotype of behaviour
- groups have common origins and synchronized history
- systems are stabile and evolving (not a one-off happening)
- have hierarchial structures
Ethnic systems, by Gumilev, ARE NOT:
Language based, religion-based, culture-based, legal system based. Though may happen but this will be a side product.
System types: super-ethnos, ethnos, sub-ethnos and two smaller ones.
Any ethnic system is a result of a small one evolution or a higher level degradation.
Each system contains elements of smaller ones, and is, in its turn, a part of a higher one.
Samples of superethnos: Roman, European, Muslim, Russian. Ethnos: normally, what we call a nation. Sub-ethnos samples are usually rigidly tied to the landscape – Cossacks etc.
Passionarity: INHERITED quantitative parameter, defining capacity for extra effort and extra stress. Passionarity, in the narrow sense, reflects in behavioir as readiness to carry loss for the ideals, ability and desire to change world, in particular, own landscape. At the norm level is harmony, means its carrier is in balance with the environment. Lower than norm equals inclination to laziness, passivity, parasitic behaviour and treason (!!!) as straight as that. (The full classification has 9 levels).
At that, tricky passionarity does not correlate at all with the abilities and talents of the individual and his strength of will. Can be a very willful sub-passionate chap or an amoeba type super-passionate one.
Passions start not by collecting inside an ethno-system, but have an external impulse (intricate lines around the continent, along geo-magnetic and electro-radiation lines). These passion impulses happen we don’t know why, something in the ground correlates or resonates with sun energy or whatever coming from the outer space, and makes a push. These are observed in territories not longer than 200km and increase the level of passion in the system immediately. These impulses take place simultaneously, at a distance from each other, but are located in the same thread (line).
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Alice @ #133
I would need to read his work in full to form a wholesome view but does not Lev Gumilev's theory only work for more modern times?
Europeans were tribal in nature and this was documented as far back as the days of Alexander (Siskandar) and more fully recorded in the days of Julius Caesar and, thereafter, chronicled in the various histories produced during the times of the Roman Empire.
Tribes were mobile, family orientated and not always warlike although weaponry was essential even for defensive purposes.
I am not sure that evolution has progressed mankind beyond tribal allegiances but I do believe the Nation States have had their day - they were a political neccessity for self-preservation in mediaeval times but I think that nations will be replaced by continental groupings composed of many tribes from the 21st Century onwards.
The continental groupings already exist to a certain degree now but I think that in Russia you might call them "Spheres of Influence". ;=))
Superethnos would be the coming together of several tribes for mutual protection, genetic self-preservation or simply through tribes interacting through pillage and rape being superseded by intermarriage and the need for peaceful co-existence.
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Ironically real Stalin's name was Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili with Georgian descent. He did not start to learn Russian until he was eight or nine years old, and he never lost his strong Georgian accent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
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Folks, for your attention, just as addendum to
your lively discussion-
facts surrounding the Munich Pact.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html
What is interesting in the modern History- it is going in the same rounds. Poles always played opportunistic role and now the analogous try with the antimissile installitons.
You would never convince me that it is about
US defence.
similar antirussian game, but here is the parallel action to Ganley initiative.
For the US- strong ,united ,independent Europe is anathema. Strong means - together with Russia - not against.
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Menedemus -131
I agree with what you say about historians . It is rewritten again and again.
History itself is
being used by politicians. and many historians are servicing the State better that prostitutes.
As to China -there is only one way for Europe to survive - be strong and united.
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To all russian participants: this is useless. Europeans will never recognize for other peoples the right to lead their way for in eyes of Europeans they are supreme being (see post 7). We should review our defence options to build a system based on nuclear weaponts which must be cheap but effective - this is the only way to prevent another 1941.
If you are disagree just try to remember - how many Europeans you know who would speak Russian? If you are still not convinced - visit Baltic states and see your future in Europe - yes, as a slave.
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Menedemus, alas 99% of the theory is in Russian, and forgotten as well, because he kind of wrote it sitting 35 yrs in the Stalin camp in Siberia. Sometimes it flashes up at various historians' round tables:
"The different stages where diff. nations and cultures are on, give Gumilyov reason to state that the European super-ethnos is 500 years older than the Russian.
What happened in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century was the subject of the west European history at the end of the 15th and the beginning of the 16th century. "We passed the Renaissance, it's over. Now we have to pass the Reformation."
The welfare, the civic peace, the respect and honor of human rights of modern Europe, are result of long and cruel historical process. The civil wars in Russia, at the beginning of the 20th century, are compared by Gumilyov with the bloodshed in France and the confrontation between dukes of Orléans and Burgundy. "Today we must not even try to imitate Europe; we can not achieve her moral, because our passionate level, and our value imperatives, suggest quite different behaviour."
...
"Although the stable and permanent fusion of two or more ethnoses is impossible, there is another scenario that could appear - after a deep internal disintegration, a part of one ethnos could join other super-ethnos. Applied to Russian history, that corresponds to some Russia's intentions to enter "the European civilized nations' family", and to take part in the formation of new super-ethnical system.
Gumilyov is very suspicious about such a possibility. Even the realization of the "Common European Community" has no chance to become a center where the "mankind values" would dominate, says Gumilyov. Such situation could become disastrous for Russia. As a great country, it can't neither lose its own identity, nor reject the values and behavioral models, which differentiate her from the other world, and which give reason for her existence as a nation, and as a state. "The dominance of western European behaviour and western European psychology would be the price which we should pay for our entrance in the civilisation", concludes Gumilyov.
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Alice
#139 - why to join Europe - means loose Russian identity - i disagree.
If Russians want to preseve it - they will succeed . remeber jews - they did it.
nobody knows
today what super ethnos would look like if it happens. Gumilev s theory is interesting but it is one of many trying to explain the world-
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Zhanette,
Gumilev listed Russians under 2 categories:
super-ethnos "Russia" and simply ethnos - Russians.
The super is umbrella uniting most of the steppe culture (unlike "forest people" - Europe). You don't necessarily have to call this super-ethnos "Russia". Our turks are here, tatars are, and all 222 small nations of "Russia". Must be calling this dom "Russia" simply pleased the historian, Russian by origins. Well, he, in fact, belonged to the wider group, as we understand, with Ann Akhmatova for mums.
Supers don't join each other, by definition.
That's why they are supers. Uniting multiple groups on the same land landscape, with various characteristics, but all likely to respond similarly in case of anything.
But when super collapses, its left-overs can join another super. By Gumilev, the place we are in, is currently re-inventing itself (the stage). Whether it will succeed - God knows. I don't exclude the option when 1 left-over "Russian" (from "Russia" dom - whoever the survivor will happen to be, a turk a tatar an Abkhasian) - scratches at the Europe's gates with a white flag in hands and says: "I thought about it. I think, after all, I am not Asian." The way we are de-populating, all can be. "From the beggar-bag, and from prizon - never say never again."
Russians as a separate nation can join European super-ethnos now. When an ethnos joins a super - it blends into new environment. I mean - in case of anything - will respond as Europeans do.
I feel comfortable responding like we do here, in this "dom". By natural mould.
Have you read the threads? Would you respond like Europeans? This is important, to know your enthos future.
Currently - most I read - is very alien to me. I'd join Europe only at the point of the gun.
But this doesn't mean we can't have co-operation. It is interesting here, in "European blog." Looks there may be something workable, as a future. May be we'll develop the theory. After all, naughty and creative approach to theory and rules - isn't it characteristic of the "Russia dom." ?
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Alice# 139,
but why are you so afraid to join europe ?
culturally europe is exeptional.it does not dominate(contrary to the fears of many in russia-as i understand it) ,it supports cultural diversity , it s far less corrupt than for instance russia, here even people with limited financial resources can defend their rights. one can not imagine government official continuing being in office after he killed somebody on the road, while driving drunk.... etc.
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Alice #121
I do not think anybody fought any Bulgarians around Stalingrad. Bulgaria may have been an ally of Germany during WW2, however we never contributed any troops to the Eastern front.
That is not to say that we did not kick the Anglo-Americans a bit (after all they bombed us too, not only Drezden). As the things turned out, at the end we fought our former allies and some Bulgarian units reached Germany toghter with the Red Army.
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Isenhorn, i don't think i mentioned Stalingrad, but i have a confident feeling Russians and Bulgarians fought at some place.
my info ab the war is home news and, how to say, what people said to each other. no boring scientific papers on any fronts "...and this regiment - moved to that platzdarm, and one No 677 joined no 325, while the wing.." never found exciting to read.
I have a vague feeling there was some problem with your King, that's why you happened to be opposite. either we offended him? or he offended us?
never mind, I'd never bring up the subject in the offensive manner, i think I was on the defence side here, explaining Russia had in fact more opponents in the 2ndWW than allies imagine.
We seem to have forgiven Germany !(approximately). compared to this - what -to keep a rock in the bosom - about Bulgaria?!?
just don't forget to send us cucumber pickles! and every Russian get-together will keep remembering Bulgarians for centuries ahead - by a kind nostalgic word.
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It was me who put Bulgarians around Stalingrad in post 118, and stand corrected. Seems there were no Bulgarians troop on Soviet soil trough the war.
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Alice, may be you meant WW1- that is when the Bulgarian Army fought in Bessarabia and encountered some Russian units. In WW2 there were some Bulgarian volunteers in the Waffen SS, who coud have taken part in the fighting around Stalingrad. However, they were few in numbers and I do not think they have had any impact.
Although Bulgaria was an ally of Germany, it never declared war on the Soviet Union. The government kept the diplomatic relations and the USSR embassy continued to function in Bulgaria. The reasons for Bulgaria joining the Axis are many and some of them go back to the years immediately after the liberation of Bulgaria from the Otoman Empire. Then the country was partitioned, this being instigated by the Great Powers Britain, France and Austria-Hungary. This in turn led to the Balkan wars, then Bulgaria joined Germany in the WW1, was defeated and the ultimate result was us yet again joining the Axis in WW2. It is not that the King was offended by something the Russians did, it was merely that we had to decide to either be invaded by Germany or become an ally. Well, we chose the later, as this was the better option for us and in any way Germany was an old friend at the time. However, the government knew that a war with the Soviet union will be hugely unpopular in the country and that is why it only declared war on Britain and the USA. Our non-involvement on the Eastern front explains why after the war we did not loose any teritories, as the Soviet government treated us very favorably indeed.
May be bacause of that people do not know where to place the Bulgarian participation in the war- amongst the friends or amongst the enemies. We tried to keep our friends without making too many enemies. There is an old saying in Bulgaria which goes like this- always with Germany, never against Russia.
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Isenhorn, "always with Germany, never against Russia" - sounds good to me.
These days in fact it is very close to perfection!
Funny USA and UK to who you did declare war - think you were their side. And Russia to who you didn't declare war - confidently lists you in the opposite campus.
Must be the old war rule worked there - "who is not with us - is against us", and the situation we were in - every grain of weight in the balance counted.
tell me I am interested - how did you end up loving Germany? with Russia it's clear, old language (even now I think a Russian can understand a Bulgarian without interpretors? would be easier in writing, of course), but what about Germany?was there something good in history, combined, some positive mutual memories?
Russians love of Germany only "gloomy German genius", their philosophers and their writings. Reiner Maria Rilke poet as well, I think. Value all on the thinking and literature in-put side.
and tell me how are your vineries doing. we haven't heard ab you a thing for ages. and "golden sands"?
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Well, the Bulgarian 'love' towards Germany comes yet again form that partitioning of the newly independent Bulgarian country after the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878. Since the Great Powers (i.e. Britain, France and Austria- Hungary) feared another Eastern European country, who will be an ally of Russia, the country was divided in three parts. One became independent, the second remained as an autonomous province in the Otoman Empire and the third part was returned to Turkey. Because of that, the Bulgarian foreign policy for the next 50 years was to try to unify again those parts of the country. This led to the Balkan wars, in which the teritories we got back from Turkey, went instead to Serbia and Greece. During WW1 Germany was the country that promised us we would get those teritories back in case it won the war, and naturally we joined on their side. This more or less led to a feeling of goodwill to the 'comrade in arms' and some kind of 'love' towards Germany.
Otherwise, even though now Bulgaria is an EU and NATO member country, we still feel more close to Russia culturally. 'Golden sands' is still there and again there are lots of Russian and German tourists as before. So if Turkey is where Europe and Asia meet, then Bulagria could be the place where Germany and Russia meet (in the good sence).
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Isenhorn, thank you, before i write more - thank you - I laughed outloud, ab this careful ("in the good sense") - a very good morning to you!
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In late soviet times Bulgaria was also known for computers. How it was, Pervets?
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Isenhorn,
there's a movie here "Place of meeting you can't change." In many parts, ab. 1946 head of Mosc. criminal police, trying to catch a "Black cat" gang (they were leaving a black cat at the crime places as a chic signature). Became a popular expression. I once were in a restaurant cleverly called so. but then I guess it's simply because we didn't think about applying the expression to Bulgaria !
i think it is bad we are forgetting old connections. and getting incapsulated. this is all hurt pride. like, got tired listening wondeful discoveries about ourselves, and decided, approx. "think what you want; we'll manage ourselves; not the first time."
in Russian conditions it is suicide. having so little people survived the 20th century - the duty to motherland - how to say - of every Russian ! willing to preserve the "dom" - is to be the friendliest people on earth.
(to try to allure others in !)
meanwhile, even when some are willing to come, it's a nightmare with paperwork (Rus. passport is not easy to get at all, opp. to what may be the impression). I taught Engl. for 2 yrs to a student in my group, and all the time he tried to obtain passport. had bad luck being born in Uzbekistan, though both parents Russian, worked there in Perestroyka time. He couldn't as much as he appealed, they kept requesting papers from Uzbekistan, as didn't trust one he brought with. And Uzbekistan was not in the mood to mail verified copies to officials in Russia. He officially lived and worked in St. Pete, lived at his uncle's. Once he nearly dropped it, when realised on getting the pasport he'll be grabatised into the compulsory army service here, as still below 28. spent days and nights cueuing in staircases of various offices, lines collected by doors at 4am. Got it, all the group was happy for him. I wouldn't call this easy procedure! only if very much cornered and no other choice people do it.
On the unrealted subject - how are the petrol prices - in your quarters ? Rus. oil dropped from 140 dollars to 70, but our car fuelling stations kept the old price, 25 roubles/litre. Which is more than in the US, if to calculate back from their gallons.
2 anecdotes ab it now:
Year 2015. Ad in the Russian petrol station.
"Buy 10 litres of benzine here - and you get a car in the attachment."
- I heard oil prices are down twice...
- Yeah...
- And petrol still cost the same...
- It is.....
- So why is that, what do you think?
- I don't know... May be our petrol is made not from oil?
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I'm pretty sure getting a passport must be very hard... after seeing how hard is to get a tourist visa. Last year i traveled to Moscow for a week and learned that you must buy a ticket from a list of authorized agencies or get an invitation from a russian travel agency and the visa is a single in-out within a month (there's a special with two in-outs for more money) and must have a hotel reservation and i'm pretty sure i'm forgetting something.
Ah yes, once there you must register your passport with the police. Pfew.
Was worth it, tough. :)
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mostacholi, yes, it is disaster. as if we are swarmed by Western Europe quarters trying to stay here forever by applying any tricks they can think of! how it is done via travel agencies I don't know, but without them people here write inviations and send them by mail to a friend to come, to present at a Russian embassy in whenever - to get a Russian visa.
But "to write an inviation" - this is not what it is! As many times I had friends from abroad coming, I mean hair raising up to remember. When a Russian wants to invite a friend - we go to ? External Affairs something local office, and fill in a form there - like I, staying in the full mind and not mad, do wish to invite that foreigner to come over. etc. Then you leave there the form and they think about it for a month or two. Then they give you the number which is the number the foreigner comes up to a Rus. embassy abroad and quotes and there is a visa for his name waiting there.
To start with, to get the form - we need to mark in the cueue for days. To submit the form - another cueueing adventure. And then all can go to hell if the arrival times in reality differ from requested arrival times.
One must fit within the month mentioned there, I think.
With police registration - also mad, but this is not ab foreigners, this is ab Russians in the first place. Like, if a Ukrainian comes to Russia, he can frolick around not declaring his presence in Russia for 3 months. When I move from St. Petersburg to Moscow - I need to show up in police within 3 days.
Criminal intentions, you know, a Russian goes from city to city within his own country. We are very very much a police state.
Luckily, as I wrote in another blog, Russians en masse simply neglect the laws. For ex. I definietly remember I lived in Moscow 8 years, thus skipping the 3 days by ? quite an amount of time.
But foreigners are scared to neglect, being in an alien country that's why suffer.
When i was in England, I also minded the laws and went to get a kind of registration with the London central police office. As my study visa advised to do this urgently, some place in some small script.
The policeman there I remember stared at me with big eyes, like he met the first so organised a russian sample, who comes by (her)self and voluntary gets a local small green book with photo or something. He asked me so many questions - why i decided to do this? and my explanations - because written over here - didn't seem to him convincing. it seemed I was the only one who did.
They looked
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Russia's following provokation on "mysterious terrorists" so called "Georgian patriots" is exact same scenario they used to launch large scale millitary opperation in Chechnya. Russia has entered 2000 additional troops into Samatchablo (now called s. ossetia) It is clearly preparing for something they intended to start in april 2008, when they entered 6000 troops into abkhazia. Russia is not done with Goegria it is on its way to repeat 1918 and 1921. it is turning extremly vicous and hungry for new territories, new resources for its population which is on its way to recession and starvation period. There is documetary made by western journalistic investigators talking about how russians prepared terror attacks on their own population to justify the war in Chechnya.
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Alice @ #153
Yes, the UK still has Alien Registration Cards but most people within the UK don't even know what they look like!
How insulting it must be for people to be categorised as "Aliens" as if they come from a different planet.
The reason your British policeman was so amazed to see you voluntarily abide by your registration requirements is that, within the UK, once admitted into the country on Visa classifying you as an Alien the UK has no means to track your movements and so many Aliens simply go about their visit, stay or remain and there is no mechanism to track you and enforce your reporting to Police Stations and renewal of your Alien Registration unless you do so voluntarily.
All the British Immigration Officials do is give you leave to enter and track your departure.
Reporting of Aliens to Police Stations is detailed within the Police Manuals as an event that uniformed officer have to be aware of dealing with but it is not that common an event. Hence you being looked at with boggle-eyed amazement when you were so obliging and did report to the Police.
I sincerely hope the Policeman was courteous, kind and friendly towards you.
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Hey, ingag11, if in your post you substitute Russia with USA, Georgia and Chechnya with Iraq, Afganistan and Iran, and the Gerorgian patriots with al-Qaeda terrorists, then it will become even better. Then mention the 11th of Sept. attacks and you are ready to post it on the 'conspiracy theories' blog.
Russia wanting the resources of Gerogia?! Wake up, man, what resources are there in Georgia that Russia does not have a hundred times more? I agree that it is important strategically, but not because Russia neds new resources.
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Menedemus, I found the artefact at home, the small green booklet is called "Certificate of Registration. Immigration act 1971."
if you wish to apply for extension, or other variation, of your condition of stay, send this document etc. if you change your normal place of residence from the one last recorded within this certificate you must report to the police within 7 days of your arrival at your new address. Failure to comply without reasonable excuse tra la etc. will render the offender liable to a fine up to 5000, or to imprisonment for up to 6 months, or both.
in the centre is my awful photo, by hand "holds Soviet ppt no" (not "Soviet!" oh same prejudices), and "received the sum of 34 for the issue of this certificate registration officer, signature).
Must be that's why he wondered, because I brought 34 pounds as well. Which is indeed suspicious voluntary behaviour of an alien. but no, don't worry, all was very friendly and done quickly, issued me the green booklet on the spot, no lines there.
I don't remember now but must be I have thought 34 pounds is nothing for such a souvenir.
And a Russian, experienced in own hilarious bureaucracy and having to "paper"and "document" his way through the life incessantly, always kind of thinks - "the more papers - the better". in case of anything.
Besides, the idea to register change of address in 3 days comes natural in the Russian mind, we have had extensive training at home, so come to think of it - 7 days - is much better than 3!
Since I have violated Moscow police rules by 8 years, I thought it might kind of compensate to the police quarters in general, if I don't violate the London ones !
So you see many reasons but you can't kind of formulate all this thinking process to a policeman at once, why do you come, if nobody makes it to.
FYI UK police has a mighty argument for Russians to behave in the country, of which it is not aware about. That is your architectural style. The only occasion in Russia for centuries when a house is built of red brick not painted above is that this building is a prizon. Invariably a Russian getting into the UK gets scared of the amount of prizons staying here and there, and thinks, like "Oh God! It is better to behave here." And even when you realise they aren't prizons you still feel among prizons which gives one's mind a direction, favourable for "keeping the order" in the country and all.
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ingag11.
First of all, I am sorry. really sorry. I hate to deprive a 500 year companion of lands. this is treason of the old friendship, you feel it, and I feel it. by power of old connections Georgia could count on Russia turning to it a face, not a military muzzle.
if I could influence this somehow, I would never ever.
Inga, the train has gone.
And the war - at best!!! optimistically - had 3 sides.
3 forces creating the disaster, not Russia alone.
I remember what you wrote, that Georgia is a combination of small nations. That an Ossetian, an Abkhasian - is same Georgian, as "a Georgian" is Georgian. Because there is no such thing as "a Georgian Georgian."
So to separate you is criminal, undermining the nation.
I am not sure of my knowledge in this, but I still think there is a "title" nation - say, all the small nations speaking Georgian, instead of, say, Abkhasian or - Ossetian.
I think you have the same feeling as I do, that's why I can understand your despair.
You feel ab Abkhasia and Ossetia like we felt, when got to know Ukrainians are not Russians.
And when the world thought it is good that Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia get split. We also thought we are one and the same thing, it is criminal to separate us, but surprise surprise.
However - mind it - Russians were also
"a title nation" of the conglomerate.
When you are "a title nation" - expect things these days.
Now, back to Abkhasians and South Ossetians. They were also our companion, for the same 500 years. By any logic, yours, or mine, with "title nation", without, - they were there, by our side. didn't fall down from the sky in August 2008.
To them we also owe, friendship obliges.
You've mentioned Georgians fighting together with Russians in the 2nd WW.
True, and good point, and as many times you'll wish to bring this on - no Russian will be able to disagree or say to you anythin. A dis-arming argument, in the Russian mind, indeed. Look though at Abkhasians. Didn't they fight? Aren't Abkhasians famous, since USSR times - they had the largest amount of military top courage order, like St. George cross, Soviet equivalent, Star of the "Hero of the Soviet Union", in 2ndWW. Per head of population of course. But - it is much higher than any other nation of the old USSR, higher than Russians - who must have been concerned ab the war on their land - included. Star of the hero - with its percentage post-mortem - is not brooches and jewellry, it says about the people.
Why don't you think we owe to them?
Think ab another thing, as well. In USSR collapse, when Russia got busted, couldn't put anything on the common table - no money, no ideas - nothing on offer, bare scratched wood - all ran away from us, like as if we carried plague.
I will not dispute that, a golden chance, during a very short time of confusion - happens to any nation once in a thousand years. However you'd be surprised - we also thought we can count on old friends in the hard time. And they proved to be friends for a fair weather.
With a very few exceptions. One of them - is Abkhasia and Ossetia. Nobody wants to be friends with Russia anymore - and they did! All I heard in Abkhasia in 1994 - why don't you help us! what are you waiting for!
why this in-decision, that drives us mad. what side are you after all, make up your mind, Russians, our patience is not unlimited, we want to be with you - what else do you need. it was even, how to say, aggressive, what I heard there. I don't know whether these 2 wanted true independence, or simply to divorce with Georgia at the cost of joining Russia, I don't know if they knew for sure themselves. how will it work out, who could tell the future. with Russia, alone - but away from Georgia.
I feel thankful to them that they didn't treat us as carrying poison in the blood. Was a stark difference to others. And now they have no one else in the world but Russia, not a single friend. They trusted in us - we will not let them down. We have two new friends.
Inga, remember the a proverb?
An old friend is better than two new.
We will check if this is words or wisdom now.
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Alice:
Heh, i think you're roght about the police permit. While walking near Kremlin a policeman walked quickly to us and sayd "Documenti!". He looked pretty angry. We handed the paper (with a nervous smile), and he tooke them and... walked away! He walked towards two guys standing there, and yelled them (in russian) "See!? This is what you need to have!!". And then explained them the trouble they would be in. The guys were plain looking, in jogging and kepkas. I guess the policeman easily identiffied us as tourists and assumed we had the damn papers, and used us as example :-)
And on friends, there was a joke circulating here a time ago: "The only thing worse that be a enemy of US today, is to have been a friend of US yesterday".
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#158 Alice, I do not agree with you in this context. Russia just needed to pull the Soviet Union back togather and appointed KGB agents as the heads of these two Georgian regions to make sure no peace could take place there. Besides, it kept Georgia under blockade since 1990. Saakashvilis opened the doors towards the West a little bit relief reached Georgia: at least energy crisis was over and children do not have to scream Hurrah! everytime power comes back.
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Alice
Ossetien and Anhasien are lost to Georgia
forever and that is good. they are lost not only because Georgia wanted to dominate and as you rightly made a point - wanted to make
everybody georgian, they are lost because
Abhsiens never wanted to be part of Georgia. The war of 1990 when Abhasien triumphantly defeated Georgians was won with the help if Chechens and other muslim folk of Caucasus. It is extremely interesting
-when georgia attackeb Zhinval(Ossetien) - people from all over the Caucasus both christians and muslims were subscribing as volunteers to fight georgian troops- when i asked one guy from the caucasus - why -his answer- because georgia is an agressor- because big(relatively )nation attacked small-it is shame in Caucasus - and the russian answer to georgian attack was
greeted throughout caucasus .
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#161 Correction. Not
defetead by "Abkhazians and Ossetians"but by Russia. Total number of Abkahaz in 1990s +around 70,000 vs. 400,00 Megrel (Georgian) population of what they call Abkhazia and ossetia was just 30,000. We know which battallions russia used to fight Georgia.
Russia knows how to manipulate with minorities. Russia massacred 500, 000 Circassians in the 17th century. And now Circassians are used by russia against us.
By the way circassians were trying to bring the Genocide case to the court just recently. There, but there are many videos in youtube on this topic.
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zhanetta must be a kosovar. Her dillemma is that wants to remain in the West, even inviting Russia to join, however she is very much against the West.
I think Russia will lose this war, because international law is not on its side.
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Who are Circassions?
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Looked up in wiki, it is Cherkesy !
Now, Inga, what have we done to them?
In 1600-something? bring a case to court, I mean, I don't even remember who ruled Russia in the 17th century!
Have a great idea. the case may be brought against Poland. Weren't we ruled by various false Dimitry's in big quantities at that time? And "muddled waters pond" time, when the Polish settled in Moscow as if at home? l am sure we kicked the Polish out of Kremlin only on 4 Nov 1612.
wiki says the only proper Cherkesy are Adygs.
I think they live in the Republic of Adygea, and haven't heard anything bad of them.
Make excellent knives and special Cherkess sabres, with a split top handle. You can kick it down into the ground and place a gun in the fork. The Cherkess sabre in all trials proved to be a more killer armament than all the rest tried - Cossac, Japanese long curved, whatever. That one can snatch it out and turn over up ready to slash without that extra hand movement needed with all other world samples. Extremely efficient. Helped the Cherkes join all other world armies, all they did in life they fought, whenever a war is. Fought on the side of Persia, of Turks-Mamluks, forgot who else.
I know because my father collected ancient knives. I slept under a Persian carpet on the wall, while various harakiri knives, swords sabres and duel pistols were occasionally falling down on me from their hooks. At the soft age of 5. I think I can work in the antique shop, some knives dpt.
And a Chechen old dagger father kept. Unwashed. A friend of my granddad was killed by it.
Inga, you wish to bring forward the topic of Caucasian wars. Modern news are not enough.
A strange thought! Can it be that a Georgian desire at the moment is to quarrel Russia with the whole Caucasus? Now, that's voracious! :-)
As if all NATO is not enough!
Caucasus wars - what can I say? they were! Took us 150 years to defeat Caucasus. However don't forget Caucasus folk also gave Russians hell, descending down from home mountains in multiple raids. You don't think we are quit?
"oh will you ever wake up, the Prophet, who was laughed at!
or can it be - that never - craving for revenge
From golden scabbard - you won't tear out the blade!
All covered by the rust of indignation.
I think that lieutenant Lermontov, part-taking in one of those wars (and killed in the duel in Caucasus in 1841) caught the spirit very well.
(for the Eng. speak. audiences. Lermontov - our 2nd tops poet and writer, after Pushkin.
The quintessential Russian Pushkin - was very much an African.
And Lermontov, I hate to spread this news, was from Ler Mount, Scottish family. Still his relatives here, in St. Pete. Five left over.)
Oh, that's also Lermontov:
Supressed roar of threatening Terek,
It rolls a wave after a wave.
Angry Chechen is crawling out to the river bank -
Sharpening his dagger...
(crawls and sharpens? well, anyway)
But no worry, darling, your daddy is a good warrior, seasoned in these battles
So sleep my baby, tight and sweetly, by-by-by-by-by.
A Russian lullaby, 1820.
I think great poets are great, because they put things in the context.
Inga, I also think Zhanette is right. Not when she wishes Georgia to be squeezed in tight friendly embrace by Turkey and Azerbajan, I honestly think Georgia is awful! awful! but should survive.
But when she mentally splits Georgia and the Caucasus now. You aren't Caucasus anymore. Russia is a better Caucasus than you are. We are Caucasus now, you are - EU, USA, whatever you wish to be.
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Doesn't Russia hold about 100% of Europes Energy cards? This Energy situation is a dagger pointed right at Europe's throat. Europe has to find a way around it or get used to Russia thinking of her as it's personal hostage. I don't think the Russians feel like talking as they are getting their message across quite well at this time.
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#165 Alice, I do not argue about the fact that the north caucasians tribes put Russia through hell. But the reason why i brought up this issue is that In1990s and August 2008 Russia used north caucasians against Georgia. I did not know some of these tribes called themselves circassians, but they are now talking about their connections with Abkhaz and that they also have right to that part of Georgian land. It is hard for me to understand who is who in the north Caucasus any more.
As for Georgia being "awful", it is your personal opinion and it may look awful to you. We are not perfect at all, but we have right to territorial integrity and right to return the refugees to their homes.
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On a personal note, Alice, you could make a terrific writer and if you have not already, you should go for it. Your story about the knives and your personal experience connected with it is very interesting.
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#166 That's right. Europe needs to save itself from it. We have already experienced the sharpness of the dagger.
Alice, you are the north Caucasus we are the south Cucasus: Abkhazia/Samegrello and Samatchablo (so called s. ossetia) are the integral parts of Georgia. I am a persistent objector and will repeat this million times if I have to.
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Inga, sorry, I thought you understood I am joking with "awful, awful".
If it's hard for you to understand who is who in the North anymore, imagine I don't know either.
All I know that the night 7th-8th many people from all over where were making way to Abkhasia to collect by the local government office or something; I assure you Russian journalists who arrived a day later and reported from there couldn't tell us who is who either. TV showed that all shouted and were eager to go fighting, crowds.
Abkhasia said that very night that their army is ready to go fight Georgia, in ab. 2-3 hrs after the midnight. Likewise the whole Caucasus was arriving to the other side of the tunnel, and collecting there.
We were told that in the beg., while Russian 58th army wasn't yet by the tunnel, many volunteers went by themselves, whatever was nearby in the North Ossetia.
Until the 58th army arrived and closed the tunnel by their tanks, because where they went - nobody else could as you understans, the tunnel is narrow, and they flew in the crazy rush. I was told the army flat refused any volunteers or anything, like, not their business, so many disappointed crowds stayed on the other side. However I was told here that one exception was made - Chechen battallion Vostok - because their President told Putin he will take it as a personal offence if the 58th won't allow them to pass. Because as you know Chechens never served in the Russian army, are not drafted in, it is enough to have registration in Chechnya for a Russian boy to avoid army service. Many seek that Chechen registration by all means to avoid army - the only place in Russia. So Kadyrov said - taking into account this previous practice, like, what, you don't trust us? even now?
Now, what did you mention about electricity. I thought Georgia makes own electricity, without Russia or anything, Hydro Electro stations?
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Inga, thank you for the compliments, no,
I am not a writer. yet. Though I always wanted to be "the great writer of the Russian land".
I can tell stories, but decent writers, you know, they write beautifully and elegantly.
And all I write automatically turns funny.
In case I'll become Lev Tolstoy I promise to mention you in the preface of the first edition. "In the middle of the war... at BBC...my patron-writing-saint..."
_____________
Now, a latest anecdote to you.
Having read in Izvestia ab the amount of money Medvedev plans to spend on SO restauration, citizens of Voronezh wrote "a petition on the knees" to the Georgian President Saakashvili. The letter was wet from tears and contained only one request - please to bomb them a little bit as well.
(because Voronezh, if you might now, is one of the most depressive areas, that hasn't seen any roads or houses built for decades, and basically it seems we forgot to restore it after the 2nd WW)
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If Saaka doens't accept to bomb Voronezh, they allways can take pictures of some army unit nearby and send them to Reuters claiming Russia is invading them. This way "the west" will pour money on them and fix it all.
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mostacholi, I came across a Ukr. site called "Censor.No", a mix of things in Rus and Ukr. It looks like it's not for nothing that Ukr. is rated 87 in the world, in the freedom of speech.
while Russia climbed up to No 141 ! wow! from the No 147 before the war (now we are btw Mexico and Ethiopia I think)
Iceland - tops of the world! followed by Lux and Norway and Ireland and Finland and New Zealand, etc. Georgia dived to 120 from the pre-war 66. Which is still far better than Russia.
The worst place for reporters is N.Korea surprise surprise.
Anyway, Ukr. seemingly joke like there is no tomorrow. I translated a portion, part 1.
Juschenko demanded minister of education to finally sort out the problems in the Kiev Uni Military faculty, where Saakashvili studied in his student years.
How did it happen that Russia and Georgia agreed on 5 points of the peace agreement, and on the 6th both stumbled?
That’s because the wording of one and the same issue differs.
Saakashvili: “Russia to close up its trade shop in the unrecognized republics.”
Medvedev: “Stop to nightmare Russian business in the Abkhasian and South Ossetian off-shores.”
Putin is asked: Who gave the order to start war with Georgia?
- Surely, Medvedev. Though he took into account my opinion about it.
Then who gave the order to stop the advance on Tbilisi and the war?
- Ah well that was Medvedev. Though he could have taken into account my opinion about it.
An urgent telephone - gramme from the Rus. Defense HQ to the defense ministries of USA, Israel and Ukraine. Dear colleagues, we sincerely request you to urgently arrange new deliveries of armament samples to Georgia, as a friendly gesture. We’d be most interested in the Israeli systems of volley fire and the news in Ukrainian tank-building. We are asking because in the budget they didn’t allocate us any sums for the new things acquisition so we hope for your understanding.
Bush, Medvedev and Juschenko met to discuss how they are managing the financial crisis.
Bush: we took a stabilization programme for 700 bln dollars, decreased the rate of re-financing and promised the people that we will decrease the taxes.
Medvedev: we raised home prices for oil and gas, sent FSB to kick out additional buck out of our oligarchs and explained our people that the West continues to rot while Russia is standing up from the knees.
Juschenko: And I announced a new election in Ukraine on getting which piece of news my people don’t give a … anymore about lesser troubles.
Vladimir Putin’s wife wonders: What were you talking about with Julia Timoshenko, during 4 hours?
Don’t worry sweetheart, you are my beloved woman. And Timoshenko – a strategic one only.
They say that Juschenko made Timoshenko a very interesting offer.
Which is what?
That if she resigns now on good-will, he'll makes her a Special Representative of the President on Board Faina in Somali.
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#172 You have no idea what is going on in Abkhazia/Samegrelo now. Abkhaz are now reaching us out. Theycannot believe what they got themselves into while the self-proclamed government is hiding everything. Your troops attack the local population every day.
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Ingag11, mostacholi isn't Russian, he wrote how he was nearly grabatised by the policemen in the Red Square, putting them as an examplary behaviour of foreigners equipped with all registration papers due. (so it's not his army in Abkhasia.)
mostacholi, I can imagine the scene! I'd be also scared if my policeman would approach me, because normally they don't, so it will be a very unusual behaviour. if one does - what does he want? since you yourself didn't come over to ask the way or why is this metro station entrance closed or? smth, reasonable conclusion in such a case is that you have violated something yourself.
I'd think first of some street I have just this minute hopped over like a cangaroo in disrespect of zebra-s, street lights and underground passages combined (normal Russian behaviour and a regular occasion to be told off by a policeman). But since Red Square is not a street, matters indeed become baffling. Have you met gypsies there? there was for years operating a picturesque gypsy gang, in bright multi-coloured shawls and full necklace coins ringing, very classy. by that small bridge entrance to Kremlin museums. that made me interfere myself a couple of times, in LOL conditions. the scheme is this: a tiny boy runs out of nowhere, clasps on the leg of an unsuspecting foreigner (I mean, literally, like a coala bear on a tree, one has to walk with him on) and screams happily "Papa! papa!" (daddy! finally! my daddy!). while people gather and a man tries to shake this disaster off, you can imagine the wallet is at a tops of its risks in the whole wallet life, etc.
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Yep, i'm not russian. Tough it's a bit more complicated than that... I lived in Moscow as a kid. Returned home in '85. Last years trip was first visit to the old neighborhood since then... things have changed a bit, eh? Whas it a weeeeird week.
Great childhood memories! Remember vacances on the black sea. Kabuleti, Gagri... After seeing what real beaches are about, wonder why all the fuzz :-)
And about gypsies, what a coincidence, two weeks ago went to see Emir Kustutirca and no Smoking Orchestra, live. The chances of them coming here were incredibly slim, but hey! Recognized the serbian three-finger-salute.
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Very interesting. I believe the investigation in the conflic zone should have started at some point. But why not before or why not in two weeks? This is reminding me the Olympics and the begining of the war. I was very skeptikal abot it but now I am starting to suspect that Georgia is used to influence the elections and now by those who want to descredit one of the candidates for his recent claims on another's weak foreign policy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ingagl11, I am glad that at least for the moment it's is not Russia thank God you suspect in "using Georgia" to influence elections in the USA.
Just in case I hurry to assure you Russia has no preferences in the US elections. Either one will be bad for us.
McCain clear why.
Barack Obama unclear why. but some occasional words, like "we ought to get US army out of Iraq and Afghanistan to have hands clear to start making them busy someplace in the world else" - in approx. wording - indicates he might start making those "hands" busy in our quarters.
may be.
I am not sure, but I'd rather hear "we will get out of Iraq and Afghanistan to keep hands staying at home." something like that.
One thing alas clear with Obama is Russia won't be able to predict him as he is very unpredictable. I mean it's bad for us, in our own opinion, for other countries may be it is good, don't know.
So in fact, I think, we have a preference. A known evil is better than an unknown one.
With "predicting" Obama the trouble is we never met politicians shaped up as he was shaped up, coming from such backgrounds.
And that he is half ? afraid to spoil something politically correct half-African,
even this means - we can't. And as a combination - we never dealt with such.
Look at him from any angle - we don't have experience of dealing with such folk.
Condoleeza Rice once mentioned, approx. "What worries me is I don't see people like me in the White House corridors."
She meant by it not skin colour only I think, but a shape-up of the mind.
To put it simply - we don't know which books Barack Obama read in his childhood.
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Funny. Ingagl11, if you'd complete your thought, it would be "Britain is for Obama."
And Russia I think, for McCain.
Surprise surprise! that we disagree! oh that terrible Ivan the Terrible with his spells.
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Ingagl11,
:-)
(I mean I am joiking)
Armenian Radio is asked:
- How does President Saakashvili call his country?
Armenian Radio is answering your question.
George and I (e ja).
- So what will be Georgia called in a week?
- We don't know.
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mostacholi, glad you found old places after what Moscow has become ! not all so lucky.
Moscow city mayor is hyper-active, when I lived there he was chasing me mercilessly.
Whenever I'd settle (in a quiet green place) he'd show up in half a year with an army of bulldozers and a sea of concrete, pouring out a lawn into a great concrete aerodrome for whatever purposes. I rented close to the Central Market, he closed it down, I rented on the side of Prospect Mira - he built a road under my nose, I ran away to Kutuzovsky - he built a war memorial with fountains and that huge pole, with the goddess of victory, Nika, and a military old tanks and airplanes museum. In the meadow where I walked the cat. So I ran from him to Voykovskaya metro, by the side entrance to the park - there he simply began fiddling with a ring road.
Re Kobuleti, Gagra and real beaches. All true but you are spoiled with aviation and travel bureaus and we are the opposite.
Cheap ready packaged tours to seas abroad don't exist as a class. When I saw the first time the offers in Britain - 40 pounds here, 450 pounds there, I didn't trust my eye-sight. Here all starts from a thousand and a half dollars. Never no urgent cheap ones or economical airlines like the new ones in Europe, travel to anywhere extraordinary expensive.
And. When you fly you fly a plane. When we fly (all packaged tours) we fly Aeroflot (at best) or its small copies of much inferior technical conditions. (if you can believe this). charter flights.
If you want to live you fly foreign airlines, full prices LH, Air France, BA whatever. So you pay a couple of thousand dollars for your flight to ? whenever is the nearest swimmable sea..... plus hotel food you book yourself without discounts, as you are an individual tourist...etc.
In my view both Gagra and Crimea have one incredible advantage. No airplane. One can go by train. Saves you 2000 dollars and your life may be. That's why the abnormal affection.
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#180 Yes, Alice you are right. I have nothing against Obama. Obama could bring more enlightment while McCain can restore Respect. I think we need both and Americans will have a hard time to make a choice. They are both liberals and both want to end the wars.
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I think people write comments here without even knowing more details about Georgia its history and overall what is the crisis and who caused Crisis? If you ever been to Georgia once and know the truth about Ossetians and Abkhazians reality then you will come to a conclusion that Russia tries to hard to divide Georgia as it is a biggest treat to GAZPROM and OIL transit which Russia wants to Dominate an thats not all, Russia is still afraid of NATO and feels like it is still 1990s and Georgia's accession into Nato maybe be rthe last thing Russia wants now.
So what about Georgia as a country with its territories occupied by Russian Army? Imagine Catalonia getting backup BY France to become independence what would Spain do??? or even in Russia imagine each Russian autonomy asks to be independent?
Oh dear we know what Russians do to those people if they ever say a word Freedom. Chechnya was not long ago crashed by Russian Army!!!! so please think before posting Russian propaganda on BBC comments :)
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ottolondon
I am a side in that war so I can write I hope ?
gas transit via Georgia is not the issue, forget about it. Its potential at best is pea-nuts in quantity and not a competition.
Besides, that is friendly to Russia Azerbajan gas. We will not under-cut the roads and business of Azerbajan. there is a deal and
a mutual understanding btw Azerbajan and Russia. Their president was just re-elected for the 2nd term, so Russian-Azerbajanee politics are likely to stay stable for the duration of Azer. old-new president term.
NATO yes, always an issue.
About Georgia territories occupied by Russia, the matter is not closed up in the Russian mind, even if we are naturally protective in the BBC blogs of the homeland interests. Internally the discussion contunues and is way from reaching a solution and a national consensus.
Only I hate to disappoint you we don't think about "occupation of the Georgian lands."
That's old news, you are behind in European thinking or something.
The 2 new tiny countries are now independent in the Russan mind - and as to Abkhasia - we always thought it is independent, for 15 years, separate from Georgia, so nothing new in their status.
New status with SO only.
We are in the next stage of worries.
That is - do we occupy Abkhasia, as an independent country now.
The discussions in the Russian net go like this: Our tanks in Abkhasia - occupation or not?
SO we don't discuss - they were so beaten and bruised by Georgians that it goes without saying Russian army there at the moment - their only survival. Until a better way is figured out, because of course we can't sit there eternally. 2 years I'd think? Till next summer definietly.
Ideally SO and Georgia have a normal friendly border and go back and forward to each other and agree btw themselves and may be like an open border arrangement something.
The last thing Russia wants is to have a border with Georgia type Israel-Palestine, thank you very much. But how to achive this is a riddle. The moment you open a./ Saakashvili attacks again b./ locals will start heartily killing each other, in mutual revenge for the recent things.
So what worries Europe I don't know, we worry about us in Abkhasia, because Abkhasia, unlike SO, expressed no desire to join Russia,so plans to stay independent, and has announced itself independent, and our tanks are there. That's what worries Russian public.
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Alice, i found some old places... But i had to put my hands as horse blinders to get a tunnel vision and recognize them :-) Prospekt Mira? I lived just there, in Bezbozhni Pereulok, err, Protopopovski it is now.
It was weird. It was completelly different to what i remembered, but at the sime time, exactly the same. It is so different to everything else that no mather how much it changes it is still the same. Hard to explain.
And yes, damn that major. "Hey, what is this big fake ugly cathedral? There was a huge open air pool right here! I used to bath here! In winter!"
And beaches... He he. No plane needed. I'm walking distance from one, not too bad. And i'm in downtown. For the real good ones i have to take the bus. No mountains, tough. Mountains are nice. I have to spend a day on a bus to get beaches AND mountains. But then i'm already in Brazil. Yay!
Otto:
About small countryes... I live in a small country, wichs always has been a small country. That's the probelm with present day Georgia, thay have to re-learn what it is like. Lesson Nº1: whatch out who is your friend, and what they think "friend" means. In the west, there's a saying "Countryes have no friends, only interests". And they mean it. Russia, in that regard is different. For some reason, they're a bunch of romantics and believe in "friendship" between countryes. And they act accordingly.
Friend of US or GB? Yeah, like Afganistan was, Irak was, Iran was, and the list goes on. Actual friends "until next advice"? Saudi Arabia, Colombia, Georgia...
Summing it up, there's infinitelly more substance in Russia calling SO or Abkhasia "friends", than whatever relation there is betwen NATO and Georgia. Just be carefull.
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Yes, mostacholi, thank you! Nobody understands us when we speak about "friends"!
Just have been thinking exactly along this line, explaining to a new "friend" the dangers and advantages he is to expect if really wishes to be a "friend" - in Russian understanding of the word. Or that may be it is better he stays in the foreign definition.
Who else in the world but Russians put the notion "friend" above "wife", 'family", "God" and even "England" or the local equivalent of it. (Having got disillusioned in all others throughout the history).
Our unhealthy attitude is we demand a lot on one hand, and spoil friends to indecency on the other.
A Russian who's got himself a friend - is prepared to go at far lengths.
Simultaneously, a Russian is not prepared when a friend strangely doesn't want to do the same.
.
Which has caused many misunderstandings enough already btw Russia and its "friends" abroad.
A friend in a Russian mind has (let's be careful with French and moderators) - "map white".
If your friend kills his grandma!!! you don't report on him.
A friend of a Russian can do whatever - hunt after old ladies with an axe in the evenings, rob banks, print false money in the kitchen and work in KGB in his free time -he is untouchable.
All you can do is try to convince him it is bad to hunt with an axe after infants and pensioners at full moon. It is allowed to go hunt together with him and try to deviate him to better purposes, by hiding the axe or suggesting to go see a new elephant in the zoo instead :-)
The same attitude is expected back. Which many foreigners strangely can't comprehend and act from wrong base ground.
Practical, sensible people. Another religion, sober, protestant, hard-working, diligent lot. Pathetic.
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This goes out to all who criticise Russia for its actions in SO and Abkhazia.
There is no doubt that Russian government acted in its own interest throughout this conflict, but i believe their actions are completely justifiable. If you have followed this crisis closely you would be familiar with both sides of the story.
Western media has been up until now betraying Georgia as the victims, but only now about 3 months later they started questioning what is coming out from Georgian government.
And the Russia’s view of the events, (genocide of South Ossetians and their peace keepers being killed.)
Georgia clams that Russia had pre-planed the invasion of their country and that they responded by sending their troops in south Ossetia to stop that? Hang on I know the Georgian government isn’t the brightest but stop a Russian invasion? Are you serious? Germany couldn’t stop the Russian invasion, we are talking about a country which wiped Prussia from the world maps, how can you think you can stop it? Anyway that’s not the point.
If that was indeed the case wouldn’t USA have all the evidence in its hands to prove it or disprove it, think about Goggle earth, you are probably able to see you house birds eye view wherever you are in the world using that.
Now think about what the US government can see using that same technology, do you not think that USA monitored and are aware of everything that happened, and if Russia indeed are the aggressors don’t you think USA would have done a little more to help their allay.
USA government is yet again supporting a nutcase leader, just like they supported Sadam Hussein, and then turned him into a villain they going to demonise Saakashvili next and probably send their troops in to Georgia to kill him.
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#188 Is it comfortable there on the clouds? :) Russia had been spreading Russian passports there over past 10 years and it is doing so in Crimea and Latvia now. Did you forget rmembers Medvedev sayin that he will defend his citizens everywhere?
There is no question there were casualties when Georgian troops were trapped in Tskhinvali. Why the Brits do not question if Georgians tanks fired towards the building what hadnbeen comming from there , flowers? BBC's case is a little skimpy and not properly documented. If there are such cases believe Georgia will prosecute those who did not obey the order: Not to shoot the civilians. Why I say this? In 1990s we prosecuted Jaba Ioseliani along with others who acted arbitrarily, but nobody had been prosecuted from the Russian side. They got away with ethnic cleansing.
I would say Ana Politkovskaya's and the Ingushetian human rights defender's murderers look more like Saddam Hussein than Saakashvili, not perfect, yet fast enough to declare seasefire, not among the most democratic past year, yet admitting his mistakes and promising to change. Do you have any idea how corrupt Georgia used to be before him? And how scary it used to be to step out late in the evening? Maybe this is why Russia is so much against him. No more drug money flowing into other countries from Georgia, trafficing seems to have no future there.
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OttoLondon:
Exactly, what Russia and the soviet regime admirers are up to is not a secret. Ukrainian president Yushchenko's face is the proof that Russia has been standing on an evil path for a long time.
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Ingag11, come on, "Georgian troops trapped in Tshinvali." You had 20,000 army in it, 8 for SO and 12 for Abkhasia. Part 2 didn't start as planned but the first lot were in action. Trapped in Tshinvali, by who? 58th army entered the tunnel 24 hrs later. And was met by fire, you were still in control of all positions above Tshinvali, took it in semi-circle, shooting down at the city.
You can't punish 8000 soldiers. And they all performed orders. Orders of who?
The buildings they shot at - if you saw the u-tube movie done by Georgian soldiers - the tank column goes and fires at houses left and right, the whole street. Soldiers sit on top of the tanks, it is seen in the tanks ahead of the one from which the film was done. The whole length of the street - and not one shot back from these houses at the column back. I am sure there was resistance in some Tshinvali places, after all you did stuck in Tshinvali for a day, instead of going straight to the tunnel, SO own self-made "army", but in the film - as min. one street - there is seen none.
Inga, I don't protect Politkovkaya murderers.
Stop clasping at Saakashvili. There is nowhere to put a stamp on him. Get yourself Nino Burdzanadze, anyone - you won't suspect Nino in the excess love for Russia, I hope?
I don't know if you know a little bit of Russian, I'd give a link here to the site that shows military trophies somehow. Photos, descriptions, Georgian rifles, machine-guns, cartridges for both, backpacks, uniforms, helmets, safety vests - all about how Georgian army was equipped. Analysed by the experts in NATO armament, as Saakashvili boasted so much he spent 5bln lari in 2 years not in vain, but that the Georgian army is equipped by NATO standards, all top quality. Inga, he lied mercilessly. He sent to fight a one-off army, like paper plates for the picnic and plastic forks. Their luck the war lasted just 5 days.
In these uniforms you can only take parade pictures. The vests are fake NATO vests, only real thing in them is protective plates. The website of the vest supplier brings you to the call-girl service. In the "NATO" backpack the frame is not of titanium but of aluminum and bends in hands. US rifles (Bushmaster) are supplied with Slovenian cartridges. That bend and after first 2 shots the rifle is spoiled. The Israeli machine-guns (Negev) are supplied with Turkish cartridges - where in the factory packaging the cartridges are set into strips upside down. Really, the only normal thing in a whole Georgian soldier equipment found was helmets. Equipped this way - you can send soldiers to death only. Now Russian experts sit and get insane. We have Georgian maps with by hour plan of operation in Abkhasia. In many-many copies, from various regiments. All planned nicely in exact timing, for each unit. On the other side the experts have Georgian army artefacts. And they stare silly at both and can't imagine how Saakashvili planned to take Abkhasia his soldiers equipped as they were. Your Saakashvili baffled best brains, and not only here I think, int'l -ly as well.
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Haha! Alice you made me laugh... I was victim of that "culture mismatch" for a short time. When i was in Russia, i could ask a friend "nu, podari" about almost any toy he had. And he was expected to give me that toy as a present. And the other way. I had to unlearn that fast when left Russia, after a few uncomfortable stares :-))
And this was coming to a Latin culture, which in that regard is bounds and leaps above anglosaxons. Here we would get in a fight trying to get the axe from him, and brawl, and then when he's down lug him to a bar and drink one together to heal the wounds. Anglos would run away and call the police and claim they don't know you. :-)
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Alice, As Shevardnadze said, if this was a plan he should have blown up the Rocki tunnel first and that is it. We need to get rid of that tunnel and there will be no link between Georgia and Russia.
Anyway, I think Gorbachev was pretty clear in his latest speech - EU should take care of the conflict zones. We won't have to be at each other's throats any more. I prefer to hear your fasinating memories rather than the blame stories. I think all bloggers preffer that. Nobody believes you and me anyway in this tearm, becasue we are just regular citizens and we want things to be the way we want them to be.
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189:
How can you spread passports? you cant just turn up and start giving them out.
people who get the Russians passports do so because they want to. nobody is forcing them
to become Russian citizens. they feel Russian that’s what motivates them.
as for defending their citizens no mater where they are, if you think that it is a bad
or an evil thing to say or do, you are mindless hypocrite. look at the length UK and USA went
to protect their citizens, they invaded a country 1000s miles away, what about war with Argentina?
or Northern Ireland, was UK government not protecting their interests and citizens there?
USA is destabilising the political situation all over the world, they promise nations such as Georgia
and Ukraine a prosperous future within NATO and EU, so these fools like Saakashvili react to that.
let pe put it this way:
if someone beat you up at school, and you told your older brother about it. then your older brother
said to you, if you get beat up again i will go in there and sort it out. so next day you go
in to school with no fear, but when you get there you start feeling more and more confident
so you think hey let me see how far i can push it. in the end you get beat up again and your
older brother says well its your own fault you deal with it yourself.
so the point is that USA is taking on the role of big brother for Georgia among other countries,
what SO and Abkhazia done is call their big brother who didn’t say no.
Mr Saakashvili has been brown nosing the west expecting a biscuit
but all he got is poo on his nose.
As for democracy in Georgia, they took control after a revolution, very democratic and that revolution wasn’t all flowers you can count on that.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
mostacholi, yes, that's another religion, in the wide sense of it, and, alas, not very compatible with us. I recently saw a glossy magazine article, telling ab. study for rich Rus.children in Britain and in Germany and some places other in Europe, a comparison of boarding schools in England, etc.
went at length about advantages and how beautiful and wonderful and full of accomplishments one's children return back home in the result of foreign schooling, parents' recommendations, etc.
the finishing lines were the warning part, about defects to expect.
I laughed like mad. I wish I should have saved it someplace to copy here now.
it warned that the grave consequances to expect will be 3:
"your child will display the nearly praying and petty-cash attitude to money matters, will be always aware how much money he's got left, and don't expect him to give some to own parents even in small shopping matters, without memorising the amount after."
"he will arrive with the most disgusting beliefs in keeping with the rules and systems and what is proper and will be telling you off when you forget to pay your bus fare and will overall watch you as a hawk and criticise when you as much as park your car in the forbidden place."
No 3 forgot now, something else scary.
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mostacholi, when I studied in England my only friends were Chinese.
and not even them because they wanted to be friends with me, and I wasn't compatible with them either.
they were so scary hard-working, always collecting together after the classes, and diligently doing all the home-tasks together, as a group.
but one of them went to me at once, about the week after studies began, and said Alice, you can join our group, you are alone here, and we will do home-tasks together.
don't be friends with those British, they don't understand what friendship is, like you Russians do. they will not let you copy their works, and will not hint you by papers and signs when you are answering, they each stand for oneself. and they can't embrace in their heads how it is possible to cheat a teacher. they won't help you. you are our brothers, Russians, we will help you.
that was a gorgeous offer of course, but somehow I didn't like it about brothers very much. besides, the laborous hard-working Chinese approach to study matters was also against my tastes. so I ended up neither here nor there.
one side doesn't indeed cheat on teachers, the other side is crazy about doing all up to a tiny detail, oh where is a poor Russian to go?
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mostacholi so you are a muscovite! even that it was a fleeting encounter with Russia in your soft years :-), and from the "Un-Godly" Bezbozhny Pereulok, to top it all. ha ha ha. imagine meeting a child from a rival capital at a BBC blog ! I know what you mean by not the same and exactly the same. Moscow spells. A cosier place than St. Pete, can't deny. Normal muscovites coming here start turning away their noses and say "how can you live, in this dark, grey, depressing, huge squares huge buildings, and un-human, cold city." they don't understand how can one live without sun, and why the wind always blows from all directions simultaneously. used to their cosy Moscow curves.
I, on the other hand, was always stumbling in Moscow, with its hills and curves. Literally. their ground always goes up or down, not one straight place. even Red Square bends. So you go without looking down, automatically, lift up your leg, and fall down smash your nose. A St. Petersburger expects land to be straight geometrically for miles, without any surprises, and Moscow land doesn't go a metre straight! I was always tired going up various slight elevations, and found it hilarious, that they can't make city straight but live on their 7 hills.
will go look on the map which sea you have got. very jealous.
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#190 AnastasyaL
I was very intersted by your comment about Yushchenko's face. I have found a nice link for you, just to show that not always what CNN says is the absolute truth. Look below: the poor man on the picture looks exactly like the Ukrainian president. He was also unfortuned enough to contract leprosy, however it can be treated. It leaves scars, however.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprosy
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Inga @193
normal citizens are not bad source of info. in my experience. :-)
OWS (one woman said), you know.
as min you and I have no money interest in it. and are normal. already something.
I think you'd do well checking up your opposition to Saakashvili sources. I look up in opposition to Kremlin ones, Echo of Moscow radio station.
Nobody is more venegeant and biting and poisonous as own country's opposition. You can always count on exciting discoveries!
the art is you have to combine sources. look at your mainstream, look at oppostion, look in BBC, I also look in the Ukr. jokes site (jokes come off ahead of many news, it is in the air).
Russia Today you've mentioned - I only looked up first in my life after you said. The very idea never crossed my mind.
The Pravda newspaper you gave a link to - Inga! I haven't seen one "Pravda" on sale for 10 years. I think they've survived in electronic format only. And deal now in astrology!
I do look up Izvestia though, buy it from time to time. They have data because the richest finance - Gazprom owned, their jornalists are rich and can travel extensively, they hold stations in many places. And they can buy best pens.
Simply change plus to minus or minus to plus on front pages - and you'll be the best informed person in the world.
Ex. when a bomb was blown up BBC told me in Tshinvali in the Rus. peacekeeping garrison recently. BBC said "Russia blames Georgia, Georgia blames Russia that they blew up themselves, to avoid getting the hell out, by the deadline."
Overall BBC leaves me with a vague impression Georgians know better.
???
I look up in mainstream at home. They tell me "7 dead, 14 wounded, Saakashvili back to his tricks again."
3 days later they offhandedly note in a small script "Commander of Rus. peacekeeping forces in SO and Ab dead in that bomb blown accident."
???
So I switch off Echo of Moscow and there it is all explained. In a village in the buffer zone Rus. soldiers stumble upon a lonely car. Parked on a side, doors not locked. They grabatise it and discover some explosives very easily, under the seat. Happy with their catch, discovered a yet another Georgian plot, they drive the car out of the buffer zone, into SO, into Tshinvali, into the gates of the garrison yard, across the yard, to the building where the commander of the peace corps has his office. Eager to report the finding and boast. To document it and all. Clever guys, nothing to say.
They park the car under his very window and go into the office to report. At this very point... bang
So yes it is a Georgian trap. But no, no Georgian commandoes sneaked in the night to the garrison quarters. Nobody made the soldiers to grab Georgian cars in the buffer zones. Moreover, nobody made them to park an explosive car under the window of the own commander. So Russia got out of the buffer zone on time, no one to blame but ourselves.
And - mind it - no, Georgian mainstream was wrong as well, how to say, in suggesting Russians on purpose blew up own top commander.
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Russia could not make a case because the car was stolen. Every day some gunmen raided Gori and the villages around. Then the Russians checked the cars if they were good enough to sell. And how Georgian authorities could know which cars the Ossetians and Russians would steal. Maybe the bomb was plotted against Georgians. Like you cannot blame Georgians when you steal their food and then in gives you diarhea you cannot blame victims. Russians surprise me. They want you to destroy you and if you try to defend yourself they blame you for it. No Georgian soldier has stepped into the Russian territory, while Russia has practically moved in Georgia and it violates the airspace almost every week.
And in Abkhazia, locals do not want Russia there. They thought they would be independent and now they see they have been fooled. ABkhaz will not get away with Russian rule believe me.
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Alice, I meant get along with russia rule. We guaranteed their freedom, opened shcools, colleges, University with the wide option of languages and departments. They did not even have a written language, Ossetians still could not come up with an aphabet. We offered them seats in the parliament. Position of a vice president and participation in all the elections. Now who are they under Russian rule? - just subordinates. Our current government represents diverse population. We have both Ossetans and Abkhaz in our government and they know what is best for their people.
As for when I said we are just regular citizens i meant we were not in the battlefield. We are not the refugees. We judge everything based on what we hear on media. You r media is different, it had different interests. The world wide media is flip-flopping on this issue, which is maybe good and keeps the information in balance.
But this war can be reviewed through simply looking at the maps and history behind it. The answer is in 1914-1939 archives. The WWII have changed the picture until the end of the cold war. We were told we had a common enemy and that kind of brought people together, but even during the Soviet Union information was leaking through media. People spread the word about how many people had been locked up in mental institutions because they talked too much. There was a resistence movement on the grass roots level. After the cold war the poitical prisoners who were released formed organizations and you could see what they had been through from their stories. Now we say only Stalin was a tyrant. Sure he was more than a tyrant but his successors were just as tyrant. I mentioned in another blog, that in 1968 Georgian students were shot in front of the Mother Toungue monument in Tbilisi because they wanted to keep georgian as a state language. Those who survived spent most of their lives in prison. What do you call this? Is this not tyrany?
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Ingag11, tyranny of course, all USSR was one bid tyranny and suppression. I don't see where we disagree on that. And after Stalin was tyranny, you are right, Khruschev, Brezhnev and the small-timers.
Only Stalin lasted the longest, from revolution on to Khruschev, and kind of set the style.
"Times in which to live we don't choose,
What we do we live and die in them."
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Picked up 2 more jokes on the Ukrainian site.
dear. darling. Ukrainians...
Alongside with the new Russian order "For Forcing to Peace" there will be instituted a new order "For Forcing to Peace in a Perversion Manner Conducted by a Group of Persons Standing in Preliminary Accord."
British media wrote that Lavrov, Russian minister of Foreign Affairs, broke into unprintable expressions in indignation, while speaking with the British minister of Foreign Affairs.
The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs immediately published a denouncement of this statement. "Can one *** ! believe those mercenary British media!" - it read, in particular.
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Alice, that's very true...
When i left Moscow as a kid i landed in a city (clue: the southernmost capital city of the world :-)) built on the spanish colonial model: neat blocks, about 80 meters a side. I was astonished: "you're either inside your house, or on the street!".
No place like the dvors, interconnected public spaces were to hang out. Tough when i visited the hood last time i found they had fenced out the zones corresponding to each building. The clutter was unbelievable.
On Piter, i've never been there, but it's on the list. It's one of those places that are really consistent, it's as if it was built by the same person at thesame time. Well almost it was. In my city all the architectonic style are intermixed. I live in a Art Deco 5 level building, with a colonial house and a 60s modernist monstrosity to the sides. Then comes another colonial building (very nice), and then a Neoclassical "thing" from the '20s. But Piter is Piter everywhere.
And, i love huge square buildings. And bridges. AND as a kid i had a photo of the Avrora on the wall! jaja.
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Alice, you were right! You got no idea what this Obama may bring to us. Americans opening up now and talk about how much they hate not only you, but us too. Welcome back Russia! Finaly we understand that USA wants to use us and that's all. Wow! Russia rules now, good for you guys!
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And I was absolutely right about the communists or egalitarians coming in power in many countries. See USA president elect embracing comunist Cuba ha-ha-ha... Of course Obama is egalitarian absolutely! Alice, we should have saved our red pioneers ties and Lenin's brooches for our children LOL!!!
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Sorry all, got distracted to the blog with swastika, where there was a certain "Wolff"
questioning the degree of murdery done by Germany in the war.
And where Zhanetta kept insisting Russia marries Germany immediately, to get a good portion of order and discipline.
And forgot my main duty :o) to host the EU-Russia quarrels' one.
________
mostacholi, what a riddle you have placed.
I hesitated long btw the options of swimming on the left side, in the Pacific, and therefore placing you in Chile, and that of taking a bath in the Atlantic, on the right side, and putting you to Argentina. And Peru was on the left side as well, and Equador. Was lost with options which side to swim in is better!
Now, the task was "can swim at once, but if I take a bus I will be in Brazil in an hour". .
Study of the map excuded Bolivia (no sea) and Paraguay (no sea). If you border with Brazil in one place, you ought to be now in Castillos, Chuy or Rocha in Urugay, Montevideo looks too far from the beach. And if you border with Brazil in another place, you are in French Guiana, Ouanary. In either case your ocean is Atlantic, at least one thing for sure!
The southernmost capital we confidently and happy define as Buenos Aires! oh oh oh(and hope Australia has nothing in the 35 S !)
Now all this reminds me of "Children of Captain Grant" and I rather hope we haven't lost you in some Patagonia or whatever. "Who's happy - he is laughing, who's wanting something - he'll get it, who's looking - he will always find! tra la la"
Yes, must be hard luck to search for Moscow inner yards in Buenos Aires...
For the St.Pete yards - "well-yards" - totally hopeless (wells - I mean that narrow hole in the ground, where you get water from, by buckets).
mostacholi, specially composed for you i am sure, check this:
1. dial in youtube "Na dalyokoy Amazonke"
direct link won't pass through, but if you do it exactly in these English letters you'll get the song.
"from Liverpool harbour, always on Thursdays, ships leave the port to the far-away shores, they go to Brazillia, Brazillia, Brazillia, and I always want to Brazillia to the far away shores!...oh will I ever see Brazil before I am too old?!"
2. dial in youtube a more tricky thing - in Russian letters (hope you still remember enough of the alphabet):
Argentina-Jamaica 5:0
5:0 you can do in English :o)
and you will get the other song, by "Chaif" group this time, with translation into Spanish in the comments even. Placed by someone with a nick "girlofcj", 3 min 30.
"damn, what a grief, "qui dolor" - Argentina Jamaica - five - noll."
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Ingag11, don't panic ! take yourself into hands, think, I mean, what does America care about Georgia now. they are running around happy, just elected themselves a president, simply don't think about anything else. but accept world congratulations and listen to the new one speeches, trying to figure out will he fish them out of the money trouble or what. they simply forgot temporarily about Georgia but might return back to the old ideas, so much money spent afterall.
And, I mean, Inga, honestly, what do you have to lose? In the worst scenario dear old Russia is always there! will eagerly embrace the prodigal daughter back (with triple pleasure, after your attempt to swap continents) and all :o)
don't even doubt.
So may be things will settle down when the dust settles down? Your Nino Burdzhanadze sounds very confident and wears nice colour suits and brooches to them by the way. (Brooches sign i don't like, this reminds me of Madlen Olbright). (don't know how Margaret Thatcher looked, in terms of brooches?)
So you have no lack of assertive leaders in the back stock, in case of anything, to join the club, and Europe is there, and Russia is there, and the black sea still in its old place.
I see only 2 problems ahead - winter, to live through, with all the displaced (snow yest in Ossetia, very early?) and if any bombs or anything in the Caucasus beyond Georgia, A and O, but still all too close. There was a bomb going off 2 days ago in Vladikavkaz, a suicide woman with the belt, a mini-route bus, and we know what it means. 14 people dead or approx. in hospitals many.
The only good thing the president was re-placed in? what's that other troublesome republic nearby, the one where an opposition leader, a journalist , was killed by police lately. The new one absolutely all agree is a decent chap, even Echo of Moscow opposition to Kremlin says a good man, clean record. Army ex-officer yes, but a local, not a murderer, not a bribe-taker, Echo of moscow couldn't find anything bad on him.
So we'll see and I will keep you informed (as much as I can).
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BTW, there is an awful competition now about Tbilisi airport, who will get the contract to build a brand new int'l and all airport. US and EU companies bidding simultaneously, US was first and was to get it, but then EU companies also joined the bid.
And poor Saakashvili totally at a loss where to put his stakes to.
He is afraid to offend the USA as an old friend. But is also afraid to offend the EU countries, in case of what if common future in future, and monitors, mediation in the conflict, and all.
And the same situation likely to be with the whole IMF grant to Georgia, in this crisis nobody is ready to lose a contract, and all apply and keep applying to spend IMF money allocated to new projects in Georgia. A big chunk, 4.5 bln something.
So Kremlin watches now with interest, who'd get the Tbilisi airport contract. Which continent Georgia plans to be in.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Hi Alice, I spent three days at the gym to get that anger out ): and I feel better now. listen, i was more pro Obama than these bloggers who want to curse me out so bad. But next day when I opened the papers I could not believe my eyes. You would say you are in a different country. Every story had a different twist now. Do not they say media is free. I do not believe it anymore. Popular Media and intelligence is the same organization and most of the reports are ordered in order to prepare public opinion for some new policy. My friends at the university told me: hmm, they want to frame him - Misha. And all the papers talking about how we (I'm a US citizen but still I'm a Georgian with Russian babushka):) Maybe accidentally but killed more than 17 Ossetians and how we face war crimes. That got on my nerves. They kill 1700 a day by accident and that is not a crime. Unlike very developed countries Georgians have taken responsbility in the past and they will do so if there is any crime committed. They do not need these obnoxios attacks. Today two policemen are dead, blasted on the Ossetian plotted mine in Kareli Georgia, three of them are badly injured and they have also taken Imeretian (OMG!!!very close to my babushka's village) village Perevi wehere 100% of population is Georgian. You call me whatever you want to but those criminal gunmen who have been doing this for 20 years now should be liquidated.
See ,as soon as they did not like what I said they jumped on immigration in another blog, they think I am a poor illegal immigrant here LOL. First of all 95% of Georgians may not share my point of view and they often call what I say ludicrous.
As for Nino, I think Georgians like her very much and she does have a huge chance. They kept making fun of her that she looked like Tutsi (Dastin Hopman's character) LOL...and she decided to go Thetcher with brooch ): I know she is vey smart. Once I had a chance to attend a meeting with her where some international NGOs proposed a poligamy policy since we had some Muslim population and besides they joked that many married Gergian men had lovers anyway. She was a justice minister that time. She froze for a moment then looked through the room, took a deep breath and asked them -" OK, tell me what do you know about my husband!" LOL... Of course she said - Poligamy in Goergia? - Yeah when pigs fly.
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Alice,i think your Atlas betrayed you. I'm actually from Montevideo :-)
Buenos Aires doesn't have beaches, they get all the sediments from the River Uruguay, so all they have is mud. We got the "right" side, this is, the left.
And thanks for the tubes... 5 years ago i found this site, (***edited the site out, believe it's the cause of the removal***), and started seeing all the old cartoons i saw as a kid, and got emotive. I swear i still get goosebumps from some of these, if in the rigth mood.
Glanced over that "other" thread, and... wow. Where they get that people? On second thougth, i've seen chilean filogerman/nazi sympatyzers. If you saw them, you'd know how silly and pathetic that is.
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Here you go again. Today's NYT: No NATO membership for Georgia? I cannot believe how retarded the politicians are. They are pushing the country away. I know how they feel about this and I know people will take it far.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ingag11 and mostacholi (dear moderators these are the names of the bloggers here)
I wanted to tell you one useful thing very much (dear moderators this is an innocent sentence containing no hidden riddles)
But I cannot put it through as you can see from @214 and @217 because I am not that clever (dear moderators you would agree with that)
from now on whatever I write to you here will be suspected in the intention to still violate the house rules somehow (dear moderators they have a case for that now, no doubt, my fault)
so I will try this for the beginning, see if at least this will pass through (my only intention dear moderators this time)
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Alice, that must be some sort of curse, haha
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mostacholi, ha ha, it's not ha ha, but very annoying and hoo hoo rather I'd say!
And has got something to do with your St. Petersburg "still being on the list", seeing our well-yards eventually.
This is a more intricate yards's system than in Moscow, you can pass straight in some places via the inner yards inside square houses, I mean standing side by side with square inner yards, for a mile through.
Using the complex system of entering arch-ways, staircases from the "parade" entrance (for the "festive" exits and entry in nice clothes) and out into the "black staircase" (connected to the 2nd doors, kitchen doors of the apartment. which you use in home clothes to take garbage out). Impossible to explain. But there are some great specialists who know all these passages through the city totally avoiding usage of normal streets.
The yards are called "wells" because houses high, stone, yards are small openings in them if you are a bird and look from above. Also, they work like chimneys, always air draught in the arch-way, ventilating the yard. Anyway. Hope you'll come see one day? Together with normal tourist attractions.
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Hi Alice. Glad you got your story right with the british, err, the moderators ;-)
Yeah, that kind of buildings fascinated me. I lived in a "straight up" building, but a friend lived in one of those old whole-block-with-center-yard and i really loved it. Going trough the arches lead you to miscrocosmos. On one side, a big avenue. On the other side, grand-nannies knitting. And we were the local experts in traversing the places, heh, like trough the roofs from one block to another. But in my neighborhood, that building was the only of his kind.
I'll go to Piter. The only thing is to catch the right moment: i discovered i hate snow. I used to love it, but now it only means cold and wet.
So, if one of these days you see a tall guy with glaces talking swear-free russian from the '80s, that's me.
ingag: NYT flipping on you? They went all gung-ho for you when it meant nothing, and now they're backpedalling? Welcome to the west, i guess.
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Ya Mostacholi, can you believe it? Media does all the majic; I would suggest them one thing: showus the bodies and we'll take it from there. Everything else is b***t.
Alice I'd love to come to Peter one day; it must be magnificent now, when white nights are the longest, you can walk all night and enjoy your hot coffee while watching the beuty of Peter night life from the warm cafe... You may not believe this Alice, but we still have one habit, we all do): {get a napkin Alice, you might cry now }: Every New Year's eve we still watch "December 31st ("Slyogkim parom") and the Checz "Three wallnuts for cinderela" (Tri oreshki dlya zolushki). I have a copy of each with me. While my sister (very good cook by the way) is preparing vinegrette and honeywallnut bars, guys shop for wine, I usually get the movies ready for the next day (easy task):) Oh, Pugachova's "I like (mne nravitsya)" is also among my favourite oldies. I heard they made a modern version of it, but it's not as good as the old one.
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But I am not sure about the coming New Year Alice...We'll see (pozhevjom uvidim ):)
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Hey Alice, I am very confused. So, does this (Pres. term extesion to 6 yrs and the communists' objection) mean that the Communists are actually the good guys and Putin/Medvedev are Neo something? I do not want to say NAZI ): what's going on?
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"Show us the bodys"? Yeah, as Reuters and the walking dead from Poti? Yeah, that worked great.
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inga11! I knew it! ya ya! I told menedemus years ago (when you were exactly very angry with me) that i can just imagine sitting with you in the kitchen and gossiping in the most rewarding way, with the coffee and tea and all, you telling me all the awful things about Russia like there is no tomorrow! :o)
and now it also appears your family skills incl. cooking something eatable as well! (not my talent area, i'll die of hunger by the fridge side without mum). and see - we can be accompanies by a tall Montevidean who speaks numismatic Russian and likes to hop the roofs in the unsure light of the white nights.
mostacholi, I did not get it through, what I wanted. i will have to arrange you a rendezvous "at 6 o'clock after the war" as in the old movie I guess. more later.
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Number of dead from the Georgian side has not been exagerated because it is under 200, but the other side had the number ready even before the war started ):
I know what usa-british media is reporting, and smart people know where it is comming from. Why do you think Girst resigned without explantion? Have you seen 'Casino Royale'? Judy Dench goes: 'Oh God I miss the cold war!' So that's what it is and those reports can change nothing. Sarkozy is hundred percent right, he knows what we do not know.
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ingag11, with communists it depends. they improved last year for sure. before they only opposed in words, but when it came to voting - voted together with the mainstream. like zhirinovsky. now when communists oppose in speeches to something, they became more consequtive and vote against in Duma as well. so their image in the country has slightly improved.
their leader is good for nothing. but people recently collected there are decent - nobel prize holders academicians and other brainy folk. old ones all of course, but decent.
ingag11 and mostacholi, since you both feel kind of nostalgic ab St. Petersburg city views - I found a cartoon for you, a clip in youtube and I strongly recommend you to go there immediately. I cannot put a link but if you dial in youtube "Gruppa Leningrad - WWW" (WWW in capital, this is the name of the song of the most funny group "Leningrad") you will see it was placed by someone "RomanPizza", 10,349 views, and it starts from the picture "Intercative Business Game Leningrad". Like a monopoly game cartoon, only the game is played in St. Petersburg bridges and river scenery. Lots of Putin there of course, Aurora Cruiser that began the revolution, monument to Peter the First and all main views incl. Zenith football game. And you may like to check the commentary, funny as well. :o)
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because mostacholi if you thought I am into unprintable expressions all of a sudden in the first lines, I was not!
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Heh, Leningrad is one of my favourite bands! They even have a song called "Moscow", in the album Avrora, ha!
I annoy my coworkers here a lot with them. In fact, when i sayd "swear-free russian from the '80s" i was thinking the opposed to them...
(loved Putin fixing Zenit-Spartak score, haha)
That's actually a good excercise: find a clip that shows your city... A couple (not tourist friendly, no beaches, but that's what it is) could be: in youtube search "duro parejo bajo fondo" (by peterodor), and "uruguay cosi montevideo".
ingag, western media info coming from somewhere? Well, a tip. In the west, there are two main sources of "focus" for the media: in addition to the owners linked to the political powers (just as in Russia), there are also self-serving-capricious-spoiled- journalists. Until now, both had been aligned. What's going on, is that both are shifting positions. The politcal establishment for whatever reasons, and the journos because they feel cheated. NYT, after publishing that infame William Kristol op-ed, and an "Mikheil Saakashvili:
An American Friend" interview, now feel silly. They'll never say: "hey, we just went overboard a bit, let's get stuff straigth". So they go passive-agressive and try the "oh look, we didn't know THAT". In other words, they play the cheated bride.
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Jukka_Rohila said:
"The Americans certainly have this syndrome too."
Why in the world would you think Americans want to expand our territory? I must have missed us trying to attack or thinking of an attack on Canada, Mexico and/or South America. I'm a 100% certain the US will not attack anyone for expansion. For one reason, American's would never go along with it. So, what makes you erroneously think we want to expand? We're quite happy with what we have.
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To FreedomLover4Ever (231):
In my comment 60 I referred to nationalism and xenophobia in various countries.
"The Americans certainly have this syndrome too." refers to having nationalism and xenophobia.
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Mostacholi: I think they (main stream or self-serving media and the readers) will feel even sillier when Ghirst (former OSCE executive who mysteriously resigned after the war) opens up and tells us what guaranteed his retirement what sources, what would he live on. The west better check his bank accounts, but it could have been cash who knows? Today, you must be a very naive person to play in the hands of the corrupted politicians, oligarchs and rougs of society like composer Gergiev and the right hands of Neo-Nazi rullers, who finally have been figured out after the G20 summit. People preffer to be bought to the rougs rather than be afraid of them. It's been just few years since Litwinenko was mysteriously murdered by the intruders. Nobody knows the truth to this day because the viruses of today's world do not leave the traces; The murderes refused to cooperate; sounds familiar? Russians refused to cooperate after the war, waited three months and staged another, this time information war. Russians have wised up, they have aquired the main manipulative technology and successfully utilized it; I am giving them a "high credit" for that.
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ingag11,
Nevermind the old jeans are worn out to holes,
Nevermind there wheezes broken bass
It's not worth it - to sag to the changeable world
It's better if the world sags under us
One day this world will bend to fit us !
There is such an offhand idea - the world just might weigh down - to us.
(Youtube "Ne stoit progibatsya", Time machine.)
Don't splash with the tide, I mean, clever "vostochnaya" woman !
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Yeah, Alice hell with politics, I better go get my hair and nails done and then see new Bond movie with Craig and Kurylenko. One of my professors said we needed Obama to get that rockenroll America back and I cannot wait for it, everyone needs that lost peace and enlightment. I truly hope the God will come back from a long vacation ): and guarantee more secure south Caucasus too.
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mostacholi: I didn't know that Wellington was built on the Spanish colonial model ! ;*)
ingag11: Oops, this might be bad timing, but Der Spiegel has an interesting English-language interview with Nino Burdzhanadze. I know nothing of domestic Georgian politics; what is your view of her ?
WebAliceinwonderland: An article in the Guardian offers an example of public animosity between Putin and Saakashvili that, if true, could well have aggravated the events of August. Should the world yearn for the return of statesmanlike decorum ?
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Jan_Keeskop, ya bad timing, no more politics I said :), Nino was in Misha's team, but decided to break up. She is a graduate of Lomonosov Moscow University Law faculty. I personally like her very much, but I do not know what Georgians think about her. I think people somehow still view her as a daughter of a rich businessman with an ambiguous business deals. I have not read the article yet, but I am sure she is against the current government. I think it's better if she waits and participates in fair elections, meanwhile she should show to people that she will continue Misah's economic path. I do not doubt that she will make a very good president and we need her for sure.
You probably see from my bloging that I am defending Misha with my teeth, because he has done a lot for the country's economic development and he has started a huge project he needs to finish. We need him now, he cannot run for the third time.
He has been funding pro-Georgian Ossetian leadership and started developing the district also. Did you see helen' Barr's interview with Sanakoev (the pro-Georgian leader)? he said everything was going so well, but Russian appointed leadership has done everything to prevent people reintegrating with the rest of the country.
Nino needs time to prepare for the elections and she has three years, she is a great person, very intelligent and someone who will make decisions with a cool head. But I do not know if she is calling for impeachment or something like that. It's up to people. If that's what people really want you won't stop them. I just want to see someone serving normal presidential term and then leaving. 1rst president was killed, the second (our dear Shevardnadze):) had no other profession so he wanted to be a president for life :) Besides, we spent 15 years in darkness and poverty under his rule; The third one Misha finally brought us lights back, started rebuilding the country, but he and Putin could not get along with each other. Nino played a role as an interim president twice, but for a short period of time so she could not really show us what it would be like under her presidency. I personally think she will be democratic, will ensure human rights. But I am not sure about economy. To me she showed one weakness, she said we lost our territories; I will never accept that, that is out of question, we have there not only properties, but the graves of our grandparents, we have ancient cultural heritedge there, how can you get along with that idea. Very few Abkhaz lived in My grandparent's village, but whole population was thrown out of there, that is rediculous. My cousin has a Russian wife, I thought he would be allowed to stay, but he said there was no way, besides there is no rule of law there.
Alice told me I should write to Medvedev :) yeah right, he will probably hang me instead of Misha for such agressive blogging:).
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Jan_Keeskop: I just read the Spiegel article. I have not lived in Georgia for a long time to be able to understand the current politics well, but I believe in her, so maybe she knows what she is talking about. People need a woman president badly. Georgia was a prosperous country once throughout its ancient history and it was under a woman's (Queen Tamar) rule . Maybe we should change our consitution and go for a little discrimination here - no presidency for Georgian men...lol
but to me there is one threat, women always fall for Putin's James Bond character, so I hope she won't turn into Yulya Timoshenko :)
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Jan_Keeskop: Ouch! You're right! (retreat in shame)
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Oh, anyway, Luke Harding is really weak... I remeber him being completelly pwned by the exile crew...
Each time i read an article by him i feel amused. Like, They pay him a salary for THAT? His insigth level is "Saakashvily told me Putin sayd" and goes down from there.
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Hmm, Ossetians raid gori again today kill 2 people and injure douzen. Two were killed yesterday and another two the day before yesterday. I think Misha was 100% right to retreat them. If russians were not backing them we'd get them for sure. How long can this go on? I think we need to do something or these barbarian Ossetians won't stop. besides they are hungry. if russia has taken responsibility why it does not feed them, why are they keeping robbing and assaulting the Geogian population? Those who support these people are big sinners, bloody murderers themselves! if this does not stop we'll all take guns in our hands, I'm sure even women will join!!!
Mostacholi I genuiny wish you go through what I am going through right now.
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Outrage? I know it, don't worry.
Now, remember how you felt before outrage? Say, up-to couple days after Georgia bombed Tskhinvali. Interesting, hein?
By the way, i can't find nothing about ossetians in Gori today in the news, only something about Georgia claiming a rusian drone blew up and killed two policemen.
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mostacholi watched "duro parejo bajo fondo" in the tube. (not the other one yet). what can I say? as there, "brillante" and "los adorooo"
how exactly it is "los adorooo" you can't even imagine because I watched it in slow motion that only my pre-historic PC can produce the effect! and - like a numb film of 1930-s! because my PC doesn't speak either!
I think I can use the second half as a model for my morning exercise. not that I ever did one... but now I will! in the evening!
oj need to go take a note-book on credit or whaever, it is becoming impossible.
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and, mostacholi, I know you don't need to go to the tube to listen to Leningrad.
(and yes I agree, re the language of 1980s. I quoted the only printable song of theirs I am afraid!)
but still do kind of go and don't watch it at all. simply check the commentary. Gruppa Leningrad - WWW. placed there by "RomanPizza".
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ingag11
I am sorry I don't know who killed who, what I am hearing here is there are small clashes non-stop. There is no borderline for locals movement either side. If you are an Osesetian you cross and if you are a Georgian you cross. There are soldier posts at places but they stop only foreigners like BBC.
Of the locals they can't tell anyway who belongs to which side, is he/she entering or returning. Sit there purely symbolically it seems. Villages pass one after another without nearly no intervals. The int'l watchers are total empty place as I heard as well. Simply because they are 240 people. For the borderline dozen - s? kilometres. Mentally put them at a 5 people per kilometre. Well, that'll be not bad but they don't stand there lonely, but in groups, and don't stand round o'clock do shifts, and don't stand at all. Rather, are available in case of anything. The only "anything" is to arrive some complaint place post factum, if not post mortem. They don't interfere into locals' life, and we asked them originally - exactly to interfere, to poke noses, and to work as policemen, not "watchers." But what it is it is.
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I can wish you anti-Georgian speculators only one thing: many, many Osstians in your country.
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mostacholi you are just half a million you need people why do not you take them? I'm going to spread the word so that you despiritely need Ossetian people there. That is what I am going to do and afterwords Russians will send you the rest of the Ossetians and you can rename your country to Ostonegro. Sounds good ha?
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sorry Mostacholi I thought you were from Montenegro that is why i was upset, you actually are from Uruguay...Ah forget it all latinos are born again comunists...lol
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Alice, you HAVE to get sound! If you liked it, you can avoid the second video, and just look for anything by "bajofondo". And if you enjoy dance, look for "bajofondo pa bailar" (there are two versions, i like specially the "train version"). But please, with sound! =)
I saw the WWW clip... Had a laugh with the Pirate Avrora, and Putin fixing the score by cell phone.
ingag: ha, "born again communists"! That's a good one. Specially because communism is a german invention, just as protestantism.
Now, i'll be perfectly clear: from this distance, ossetians and georgians are the same. Like in the same people. Perhaps not "the same", but "equal", as in sharing all the same traits. I guess just as you would treat the same Uruguay and Paraguay. That annoys us to no end, but is understandable.
Now, you know the main reason of antipathy towards Georgia from thus afar? It's relation with the US. It's seen as a *completelly*, and i mean *completelly* devoid of dignity. Perhaps you won't understand that, because your perception of the US is very different from our own, but the only interpretation possible of Georgia behaviour is that it had sold it's soul, so to speak. Again, we're applying our own references to you, while you apply your own. But anyway, from local experience, any country or group that is seen as a pawn of the US (and Georgia is perceived to be that to a level never seen) will cause only contempt. All that is compounded by the outspoken nature of that Georgian behaviour. Down here, when someone bows to the US it will do with a certain level of shame and won't usually recognize it. Thus Georgia's boasting is really stupifying. Russians, instead are seen (even by the russophobes) as "just russians". Like, "Go figure, why they did that. Russians.". Not simpathetic, but curious. Always doing weird stuff. Sort of like japanese :)
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mostacholi @249, yes i liked "bajofondo", in slow motion the dancing there has a very mesmerising effect. wonder what will it be with sound. this will be very Russian of course to re-place a PC to listen to a tune, but, kind of, appealing idea. is Toshiba good or what a note-book name is considered good these days? I don't have money whatsoever so I want a good one. I see a lot in various ads about other things or on Russian TV, how someone is sitting doing something else, and you see the back lid of the note-book open, and on that back wall there is like a weavy line, nearly a zig-zag, like a wave, and a small curl there inside the wave, looks kind of Japanese hierohglips, but it is not. Just a word written intricately, I think. So this one must be popular but I don't know what brand it is.
Dancing I like, who doesn't in St. Pete. With Vaganov ballet academy here... we have 2 main industries! either you become a ship-builder or a ballerina.
Vaganov's ballerina academy though didn't take me when I was 7, children are selected into there like horses. I think I was blamed for the "thick ankle". Which was of course not true, there isn't a part in me that anyone in his right mind would call "thick." But you really need a lot of "blat" to get there. But anyway they were right turning me down, I was always awfully sickly and ill of what only not combined, and you need an iron health in that profession.
So all is well that ends well.
I did do dancing in late years, in an amateur theatre, pantomime - dancing theatre, etc., for years. You speak Spanish you'd know Lorca; our theatre director was mad fond of Federico Garcia. Among other plays lots of Lorca staged. I found it very hard. For Spanish dances I am too lazy and sickly. You need to be very sturdy and strong, we had a teacher in Spanish dances coming from Vaganov to us, hired to stage Spanish bits, and it was nightmare. she only screamed at me "derzhi spinu!", like, "keep straight!" , "you are a macaroni!" and occasionally caned me with the ? that pointer pole.
a really terroristic approach.
while I am long and bendy, and to hold that back constantly straight was a nightmare.
small size girls manage Spanish dances better - my observation. However I managed to dance that Belisa part once, of Don Perlimplin and Beliza, amor in the garden, but critically can't say it was a raging success with the audiences. Well, it was, but not because of me!
we had an excellent "rejisseure", a Jewish man of course, who staged things great, covering with music and stage set-ups and decorations multiple deficiencies of the dancers!!!
he's gone to Israel, surely, since that, works as a normal "rejisseur" there.
the theatre got closed, only in bad good Sov. times plus 10 yrs more on inertia, a huge theater expenses, in fact far bigger than modern normal theatre ones, the expenses of running were covered by the state. But in Lorca I stayed a specialist after that. went tohis house when in Spain, and all.
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All is Spanish dances is done "through the dot". Putting that dot, after every move completed. And you need muscles ike hell for that. It is a strain unseen from outside, to put the dots.
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Ha ha, "ballerina or shipbuilder". Or both: there was this cartoon, [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
I'm completelly useless for dance. That's why i enjoy punk, just throwing your weight around is considered dance... In fact, i didn't appreciate modern dance at all, until i saw brazilian group "Grupo Corpo" live. Eye popping.
And yeah, spanish dance looks exhausting: there are long movements, and short ones. Each short must be "dotted" as you say, and slow ones must flow trough undisturbed.
Bajofondo does Tango, or Electronica/Tango fusion. Tango also has those interleaved movements of varying speed and intensity. It probably inherited that from there, too.
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Mostacholi, Let Brazil occupy 1/3 of your county and I will see how outspoken you will become. If Russia won't reverse the "recognition" by the diggy politicians, we are going to help Chechnya, kabardo_balkaria, Ingushetia, North Ossetia, tataristan, Siberia, all of them to declare independence and then recognize them. Oh, be sure we'll do it and we''ll find many supporters too. Then we'll see which minorities you have organize them and help to declare independence from you. You know that grassroots have power. People become presidents with the help of grassroots.
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Ha ha ha! Brazil? In fact, our republic lost almost a half of it's territory to Brazil! True it was looong time ago, when the frontiers were being consolidating after the independence from european empires... If i remember right we just gave them the territory in exchange of them building a lighthouse, or something as silly. Mid XIX century, perhaps?
And good luck looking for separatists here. With our population density, people sticks together just not to feel lonely. I guess good chunks of the territory could secede without anyone actually noticing.
And grassroot electing presidents? Pft. Electing presidents is easy. It isn't even enough to have a democracy. The problem is what happens after that. And for people *really* influencing what's going on, you need organization. As in organized people. Political parties, Labor Unions, stuff like that. Otherwise you're just electing your dictator-for-5-years, and will stumble around in a eternal hope-frustration-fury cycle.
AND grassroot-empowerment is only asking for the government to go demagogic. Ask argentinians about the Falkland/Malvinas war. You could get a lot of lessons from there.
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Alice, it was "Ballerina on a Ship" cartoon.
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No?!!!
rightly my father converted "seeing is believing" into "feeling is believing" !
ballerina on a ship - what can be more beautiful in the world! :o)
oj I need to buy that note-book. and name it so.
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I'm a "maaalen'kaya" ballerina
Always darling. Always silent. :o)
And pantomime will tell you more
Than I myself.
And today, to me, behind the scenes,
The King has sent
Pale from love narcissi
And lacquer "Fiol' .
And, holding breath of anger,
Full of threats, ( ingag11, hello? )
The Queen has smiled to me
A
smile
of
tears.
And at home, in the small room,
Ill mother
Will be altering my ball gown frills.
And she will mending, with sighs,
My tricot.
And she will be think, getting asleep
How light my life is.
But knows that very wet pillow (!!! oj oj oj)
In the silence of the night
That I am not more - but a tired doll
Of people grand.
I'm - a "maalen'kaya" ballerina.
Always sweet. Always silent.
And my this pantomime will tell you more!
Than I myself.
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ingag11
if it is 200 - what are we talking about.
84 peacekeeping garrison in one blow; 380 SO civillians (undisputed number, the min. accepted by all parts to the conflict).
(remind yourself what Israel did to Palestine for 1 (one) their caperal. not 84. to put things into the - possible - context)
200 - it isn't your number. it's the amount of zinc coffins US ship delivered to Ukraine and unloaded. one nice dark night.
_________
since when do you find maestro Gergiev
"rougs of society" ? long before 08.08.08 ?
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Ossetians continue violence they started before the war today's local news agencies: "21.11.08 14:10
Ossetian gunmen have beaten up a Georgian resident of the conflict zone, shepherd Nodar Tatunashvili to death. The separatists wanted to take away his cattle and the shepherd resisted. The offenders beat him up severely."
Two days ago a georgian man Shoshitaishvili was killed by Ossetians with an Axe.
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Before WW2 Georgian population was 12 mln. and after the war 5ln. My grandfather and his twin brothers were taken to war in 1940 one of the twins from his own wedding party. the twins never came back. Stalin knowing the strength of georgian artilery has taken every young man from every family. he was an enemy of his own nation. In 1942 when Ossetians and Abkhaz saw that there were no young menn left in Georgia while their men hiding or deserting, rebelled and grabbed our land that is why Stalin gave them autonomy withing Georgia. He just had no time to deal with them. By the way Sochi was a Georgian town too which ended up on the russian side for the same reason - Georgian men were not home. Sochi is a Georgian word meaning a fir tree, it has no meaning in russian. They are discussing Sochi Olympics now. There is no chance there will be no olympics in Sochi I guarantee it. We won't let it happen.
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oh, ingag11, "we shall fight them on the beaches".
on the landing grounds in Abkhasia.
in the Sochi streets.
in the hills no doubt.
Likewise, can't offer you anything in return but "blood, toil, tears and sweat."
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Ingag11, I changed my mind.
Have an on-going problem with classifying Georgian murder of Tshinvali as Georgia's "finest hour".
Since you are in such a noble mood of revenge to Russia, I think the tune below would empower you better.
We were born at night when she-wolf whelped
In the morn, to lion's deafening roar, they named us
In eagle's nests our mothers nursed us
To tame wild bulls our fathers taught us
Our mothers raised us to dedicate to our Nation and homeland
And if our Nation needs - we're ready to fight the oppressive hand
We grew up free as eagles, princes of mountains
There is no threshold from which we will shy away.
Sooner will cliffs of granite begin to melt
...
If hunger weakens us we'll gnaw on the roots of the trees
...
And we'll drink the dew from the grass
...
Never to bow our heads to anyone - this is our sacred pledge
To die or to live in freedom is our fate
For we were born at night when the she-wolf whelped
There is no god but Allah.
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What does these Russians want now? Does anyone doubt now that Russia planned and started this war? I wonder what they are up to this time. Georgian news agencies report:
"Situation tense in Abkhazia
22.11.08 16:13
New Russian forces have been deploying in Abkhazia. Russians are moving new hardware across the conflict region. Units of the 139th Maikop Brigade are going into Gali district. Echelons loaded with hardware have been deployed at Psou River and Gudauta town.
Units of the fighting brigade, that was participating in the occupation, have been moved to Gudauta as well. The aggressors are digging special underground bunkers for their chiefs. Installing trenches and armoured shields have been taken into the territory. The population is restricted to move on the central ways of Sukhumi. The occupants and Abkhaz separatists call upon the population to get enrolled in the reservists."
Russians want Abkhaz and Georgians to kill each other so that they could move there. But this time we'll be wiser. You are busted now Russians, that's it!
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Russia "busted" over Georgia? Oh, please, please, Misha, have a mercy on us all, no!
Well, in fact.
Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall
There is such a play. Measure for Measure.
measure for measure. not a bad idea, in fact!
if 8 thousand Georgian soldiers, sponsored by the USA, and trained by US army instructors, can surround the capital of Ossetians, position guns around it (200 Grad-s it was? 250? ) and bomb Tshinvali for 18 hrs...
why shouldn't 8 thousand Ossetian soldiers, sponsored by Russia, and trained by Russian army instructors, surround the capital of Georgians, position guns around it (200? 250 Grad-s - which you prefer?) and bomb Tbilisi for 18 hrs...
Saakashvili chose the Eve of Olympics in China. Why, the return courtesy can be scheduled for the Eve of Olympics in London.
The only problem with it I can't see myself cheering the whole night of attack in the streets of Moscow. Hurray! We are bombing Tbilisi!
And toasting the health of Putin after that. Standing.
Apparently there is a difference btw Russians and Georgians. We have better operative memory. Georgian one has a bug in the system - not to remember own deeds the day after. "It has never been because it hasn't. And if it was it doesn't matter. I love Misha kiss kiss kiss."
When did you lose Abkhasia and Ossetia, ingag11, remind me. Really, 2 months ago?
Until that was Georgia, we presume.
Where was your borderline then? A simple question. You did have a border with Russia, at some point, did you? All these 16 years. Because flying to Tbilisi, I'd be alwyas met with visa control and Customs'.
So it's not that the traffic Georgia-Russia was free, by law?
So where was your borderline with Russia, in the sea-side? Why no one saw these 16 years a thing like "A Georgian border guard". I'd place some in the river Psou, as a wild guess. Georgia didn't. Not a single sample, at least to look at. A Customs' officer, for a sec? Someone to look at papers, check goods, when millions crossed the Psou bridge year after year.
I don't know about you, all I'd need to enter Abkhasia from Russia, and South Ossetia from North Ossetia - would be nothing. All these 16 years.
But nevermind the border. How about citizens of A and SO. Many of them paid taxes to Tbilisi these 16 years? Rather - did anyone - 1 - pay? Once ?
What is it exactly that made them Georgian citizens ? Themselves they were definitely of another opinion, they thought they separated in the USSR collapse. Being Autonomous Republics, within Republic of Georgia - had the right. By the Soviet, old, Constitution. I understand you might have equipped since that with an own, country of Georgia, Constitution. But Abkhasians and Ossetians didn't think it has anything to do with them.
But nevermind what they thought - what connected them to Tbilisi, technically?
And why all this surprise at the news of the Russian army, digging into the ground in Abkhasia? You media didn't tell you 2 months ago, that Abkhasia addressed Russia with request to position its military bases there? No? You could have asked me.
There is an agreement, a nice paper, in the nice written form, all formalities, timing and quantity, outlined there. Between the two countries.
Why do yoo care, anyway? You decided to be "wiser" this time. I read it as you won't attack Abkhasia, like you attacked SO.
So it shouldn't matter to you how well is Abkhasia armed.
We will hold a military base there. And not one. They are for you only if you'd attack Abkhasia. Otherwise, I wouldn't take it personally.
Simply a base. Never wrong to have an extra one in the Caucasus.
Ingag11, you are unhappy about borderline clashes? I am as well. But it is not Russian duty, to install a borderline between SO and Georgia. It is either up to SO or to Georgia. When neighbours don't live well together, they usually install a borderline, stopping free traffic. Russia won't. It isn't our "borderline". And we don't want to make a move in the direction of separating happy families. Besides, SO is not a kindergarten that we are to look after. They can answer for themselves.
When China gave us hell in the Far East, constant in-raids at nights, for a decade, dozens and dozens killed. We put in a borderline.
If you don't like this idea - can't help. Personally, I think Georgia has brave soldiers enough, to re-train them to the border guard duties.
And I am sorry, I see you didn't like the idea of the Republic of Chechnya national anthem-version 1992 (see post above).
I agree. Can't see Georgians "drinking dew from grass" and "gnawing at tree roots" - if the need be. Another mould. I'd think you'd opt for living at IMF expense instead.
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ingag11, I can't work as a psychiatrist councillor here comforting you after every piece of news you read in the Georgian media. Anyway you believe only Georgian media. and I am your "enemy side".
And I am a lousy pacify-er. to be honest.
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Russian digging in Abkhasia? Doh, common sense. Last time Georgia tought it was good idea to start an artillery shelling into a city, and in doing so killed a lot of rusian servicemen. It would be criminal if russian army didn't take measures of that kind. Tough the real defense in this case is keeping the message clear: "you attack us, we wipe your forces".
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Wow, these mysterious Circassians also protest against 2014 Olympics. We should probably have a joint rally in future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy9xLiIPNpA
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I remember numerous facts of kidnapping in the past. Now since more Russians have ben deployed in Abkhazia/Samegrelo I guess the ransom has risen. Poulation has already reported to the UN about the past kidnappings and we'll see what's UN is going to do. Todays GE news agencies
" Abkhaz separatists abducted Georgian national in Gali district
23.11.08 13:28
Abkhaz separatists assaulted the Georgian Badzaghua family in Nabakevi village, Gali district at dawn today. They have abducted Londer Badzaghua, 55, the head of the family. The separatists have demanded seventy thousand US dollars from Mr. Badzaghua. The family has given golden items and two thousand US dollars to them, although the separatists have abducted the hostage anyway. Londer Badzaghua has been brutally beaten. His location has not been specified so far.
Across with this the drunken Russian soldiers of the 139th Maikop Brigade were shooting in Nabakevi village all night long, they were threatening to burn down the village."
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Ingag11, on this I am well read. There is a huge slave trade in the process indeed. Non-stop. OSCE are mediators, God bless them for that. Russian soldiers, though, don't steal people. Ossetians steal Georgians, and Georgians steal Ossetians. Then they exchange head for head.
This was began by you, surprise surprise.
In retreat, Georgian army took away with them 50 SO civillians. Put in prizon in Tbilisi.
Labelled as "Georgian intelligence service has long ago identified them as potential terrorists."
These 50 were not soldiers, fighting, or anything. Georgia described it as "we have selectively plucked them up from their apartments in Tshinvali. Based on old evidence and intelligence report papers."
This is bullshit. Georgians didn't do anything of the kind in Tshinvali. The way they ran from it, they simply herded first people they met on the road, and loaded them into the trucks away with.
And when we exchanged the captives, these 50 were not exchanged, because they were not captive soldiers, simply civillians.
So Ossetians began to steal Georgians and trade them back for the ones in the prizon in Tbilisi. 20 already got home this way. And Georgians, seeing that Ossetians steal them away, began to steal more Ossetians.
You do understand Russian block-posts are only on the main roads. Step 30 metres to the left, walk through the wood, do whatever. Blockposts stand still, and are only good for the ones who walk the main roads! mostly, foreigners. who are afraid to use the paths.
We don't participate nor encourage neither stealings nor the trade, who would, in his right mind.
But I read a lot of it here, it is a sad fact. going on.
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This guy is just nuts. And the Polish guy with him. They drove in a motorcade, in the night, towards a South Ossetian check point? How stupid is that? Last time a Georgian motorcade drove to Sout Ossetia in the night meant a lot of people died.
Seems someone at the check point had the common sense to fire in the air.
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mostacholi, yes, I had the same ideas.
that is, initially, my idea was different.
I thought, first, that shooting is not an unusual sound there.
even in St. Petersburg, walking the dog, you hear shots here and there, and dog presses down ears and flies home. he thinks "it's after us, wolves." who shoots - could never figure out, but it's a fact.
what to say of SO and Georgia, there people shoot for fun simply non-stop, any party, up into the air. and not "for fun" these days as well. common background sound, it seems. that Saakashvili can claim is after him, and take it personally.
then I thought, and, in fact, why not? It is a great souvenir, and you can sell it to the Russian media, I mean the prev. serie of pictures were very popular here.
How scared Saakashvili runs to take cover, extraordinary pleasant shots. So I thought may be someone naughty wanted a good picture. One shot into the air - and lots of pleasure. Excellent results and entertainment. And the Polish would run as well, hopefully, so I thought it's someone after pictures.
But then they showed the film - and it is pitch dark! road lit by car lights and flash lights only. black Southern night. bushes, groves, not a light from a big city nearby to lighten the scene. what pictures.
Besides, it was an unplanned turn on the road, it seems, towards a Russian block-post, so who'd know and be ready in advance with camera-s and a rifle. (a fire-work would do as well).
In the film shown here it is clearly seen Georgian security presumambly man shoots up into the air. Not in any hysterics, and hurry, not pointing to the bushes or side of the road, simply shoots vertically up.
Apparently he heard something, in the first place, to shoot himself?
But Saakashvili unfortunately doesn't look scared in the film, stands and chats there on the road non-challantly after these shots, with some men and women, smiling his sarcastic smile. Does nor run any place, alas. Simply stands and presumably tells his audience how nasty Russians are and smiles his crocodile smile.
Like"I told you! They won't let us drive into the SO!"
surprise surprise.
Does not look very assasinated to me.
So all bullshit as usual. Who'd shoot into these oysters.
So it's all
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How retarded a leader should be to reiterate a selficriminating statement like: Invasion of Georgia was justified to protect Russian citizens there. That is exactly what makes authors of this snetence a criminal who have illegally widespread Russian passports in the neighbor's country while before so calleed recognition of these Georgian districts, they repeatedly recognized the territorial integrity of Georgia. I guess I just won my case.
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If lavrov had any dignity at all he would fire himself for being a face of wickedness and brutality. But he is the worst demagogue in the gang, I do not think anything can awake his consciousness.
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ingag11. life would be so boring without this thread. I hope it helps me through the winter.
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very interesting; GE news agencies:
"Anti-Georgian proclamations in Moscow
25.11.08 18:00
''Don't talk, don't sell, and don't give a house for a rent'' - anti-Caucasian proclamations have appeared in Moscow. The residents of the Russian capital are recommended to contact people from the Caucasus. The idea by the Skinheads has been embraced by the Russian lawmakers. They are even provoking ethnic conflicts. For such rough and aggressive statements and campaigns, Moscow has been declared the most dangerous city in Europe. "
We had this last year. Georgians were targeted and in some cases killed in the streets of Moscow. We never treated Russians or others like this and we'll never treat anyone in this manner.
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I absolutely believe in Russian people. I know they are not what their government is trying to portray. I know general Russian population is humane and will stand against violence.
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-152958
There was another report in youtube, where a Russian soldier saved by a georgian older woman was telling about his experience.
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For thousands of ages Georgians were massacred by Arabs, Persians and Turks, now Russian government has taken over thier job cheering Kabardins, Armenians, Chechens which I did not even know were our enemies. My question is why? Why Georgia? What we have done that we should be subject of such brutal treatment from these people. It could be our religion. But we are liberal. You can see all kinds of churches, temples and moscs in the center of the capital and other cities. Georgia has been carrying a heavy cross for all these ages. And maybe Blumenbach was right, maybe Georgia is truly the place of birth of mankind and maybe that is the reason of retaliation.
What kind of person throws people into the wells as if just shooting would not be enough.
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about #276 for those who do not speak Russian. the former soldier regrets being a part of the war he had been convinced was a humanitarian action. he talks about brutality of the army which mainly contained Russian, Armenian, Chechen and Kabardin soldiers where Abkhas constituted just 20%. he says he witnessed murder of a Georgian priest inside an orthodox church where the soldiers kept him at gunpoint asking -whose land was that? He answered it was the God's land. Since they could not meke him say it was an Abkhaz land he was shot to death. He also remembers was that a soldier killed his 70 year old teacher whom he resented for giving him bad grades in Georgian language and literature. And he also remembered how Armenian soldiers killed Georgians and threw them into the wells. At the end he says he deeply regrets that he was the part of this army. He says that some of these people, mainly Kabardino-Balkars, were there to take over the Georgian houses.
It was very painful for me to listen to his story. I myself buried my granndmother somewhere in Zugdidi hoping that one day I would rebury her next to my grandfather. There is my very close, very sick relative stuck on the other side who stubbornly decided to stay and die there rather to come with us. I pray for her every day and hope she will not be harmed by these cruel people.
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Alice, I do not think anything matters to me anymore. I wish I could just disappear, just cut contact with the outside world. I know how my people feel now. Let them put us against the cross, let them do whatever they want, none of that matters anymore. We have our dead to mourn for the years to come. We still have not heard the full story about how our friends and relatives were killed, what kinds of nightmares they have seen. Maybe more russian soldiers will come out and tell the world how Georgian people childrren and elderly were raped, tortured and killed in these wars. I do not want to hear any of it. I had enough.
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No, really, you're going overboard. Stop with that victim complex. It's not healthy.
As if you were catching the Polish disease, because of befriending them too much.
You're following theyr path so close, that you're even making theyr same mistakes: turning a micro fascist state with complex of grandeur, that starts bugging theyr smaller neighbours, and realising a bit too late that just as there are smaller fishes in the pond, there are bigger ones. And after that builds a self image based on victimhood, forgetting they were on the opposing end too.
Just a bit of perspective, please. Don't you find pathetic how your media changed the insistent trumpeting from "We are strong and proud" before the war to "We are victims" after? Pitifull. Just grow up and stop being manipulated.
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I wouldn't express it better.
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mostacholi can you please leave me alone? I do not read your comments. i just read the last one. I am not talking about latin america, so please have some respect towards me and Alice we know what we are talking about. You can jump in if I talk about your uncle chavez.
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I do not understand why this urugwayan guy is so concerned about what I say. You can tell communists are coming. HRW and Amnesty are documenting all the cases. Do not worry nobody will use my words as evidence. They have the facts of neo-nazi russia's brutality. They will take care of it. By the way, wait and see how Ossetians and Abkhaz people will turn against russia soon.
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ingag11, what do you mean, "mostacholi go away". :o)
You'll eat me up alive without him!
and BTW he's always been very soft on you. you don't like his participation only because he dared to be critical of Georgia.
why not???!!!!
the world doesn't consist entirely of United States. surprise surprise.
i understand your desire for the world to be Georgia, the US and the EU. where yopu have black-mouthed Russia combined so effectively 2 months ago and still continue.
when first news that it's Georgia who began the war began seeping through, you got very unhappy. blamed that UK chap whoever in taking bribes from Russia and what not. !
you don't accept that when you raise a sword you'll get the same.
you don't accept that when you make your point through via media - when Russia does the same - it is not to your taste.
Only Georgia has the God-blessed right to fight and to campaign in the media.
oh why is so? not one normal person would understand this.
I sympathise with you because
I don't know why. simply do. because you suffer, really or imaginary to you, but you suffer. so I want to help, like a natural movement.
besides, of course because you nominated us as enemies, because we took your lands. which I don't think are yours. but as you do - it doesn't change things.
you really think Georgia to be the navel of the world, extraordinary egoistic approach, that all the world interests and thoughts should rotate exclusively around you.
at that, who is to sympathise with who - is a big question. as far as I understood - you are perfectly allright and in the US. nothing threatens you in particular. while I am in Russia.
and the cost of SO and A restoration post both wars, and up-keeping, will be minused from my pocket, not from yours.
likewise all the investors to Russia who could have made my life easier ran away. and will run away. because of the ? -moderators won't let it pass - broadcasted for 2 months. with a little help of many friends.
the Georgian affair has harmed Russia greatly. you attacked me.
and what more abstract and distant person would you like to have to look at both of us if not a man from Uruguay ?
if Medvedev is in Brazil today - you think mostacholi has greaty benefitted from that already or will? to say nothing that, as far as I remember, he's mentioned smth along the line of Brazil gobbling up 30% of Uruguay lands before.
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ingag11, looked up Sochi in wiki. as you wrote it is a Georgian city grabatised by Russia. I never thought before what it is, so had to look up. to me "sochi" always meant smth like "juicy", but as you say it is fir-tree in Georgian I don't mind. wiki though gives hell of a lot of sounds in Abkhasian and in lots of other Caucasian nations' names.
So.
Original folks: adygs and shapsygs.
Next: arrived old Greeks /Byzantium empire times.
Next: territory controlled in turns by "two Christian tsardoms" throughout 6-15 centuries: Lazistan tsardom with the centre in the Southern Georgia and Abkhasian tsardom.
At that period adygs and shapsygs were Christian "or rather a mixture of Christianity + local shaman-ism and spiritism."
Next: terrotory grabatised by the Osman Empire. Shapsygs and adygs became - first involuntarily and then - voluntary - muslim.
Next: Russian-Turkish war 1828-1829. territory fought away from Turkey (the Osmans) and became Russian Empire.
Next: shapsygs and adygs fought Russians in the partisan style. 1829-1863.
1838 - founded Russian fort called Alexandria. A tiny thing. Not a village, not a town, not a city. A garrison, rather, behind a fence.
One of the three: Lazarevsky, Golovinsky, Alexandrovsky - 3 forts along the sea-shore line.
shapsygs and adygs meanwhil continued to fight these 3 forts.
1864: both shapsygs and adygs were deported to Anatolia as we got tired of them, apparently.
In the 3 forts area and around them as there were no more guerilla wars there began settling who only not. Russian run-aways from central Russia, run-away Greeks and Armenians from Turkey.
1896 the fort was re-named into Sochi, by the name of the river running through it.
In adygs "Sh'ache", in ubykhs "Sh'acha", in Abkhaz "Sheacha."
year 1900 Sochi composition:
Russians 61.4%
Greeks 16.9%
Circassians 6.2%
Armenian 4.0%
Moldovian 3.1%
Imeretians 3.0%
Chech ! 2.5%
Polish 1.1%
Turkish 0.8%
Esthonian 0.3%
Georgian 0.2%
French 0.1%
In 1917 the settlement got the status of a town.
From 1937 - part of Krasnodar region.
People:
1897 1,300 inhabitants !!!! (total village IMO)
1926 13,000 inhabitants
1939 72,597
1957 127,0000
(still a village IMO :o)
2002 397,000
2008 406,800
Climate: northern border of sub-tropics. Similar climate observed w/w: Abkhasia, Georgia (the other one, in the US), Lousiane, Alabama, Missisippi.
Languages: Russian official, Armenian un-official.
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OK. We are not taking away Sochi from you take it easy if you behave yourself. Then we'd go ant return all our territories from Turkey and Persia too. You mentioned Lazistan. Lazis are Georgian tribes speaking Mengel dialect residing inTukey today. i think russia made some kind of arrangement with Turkey: exchanged Georgian territories...It's a little ambiguous. We need to do more research here. Did russia win the war and saved the Georgians? Or just fooled us gave our land adjusent to Adjaria to them, exciled Sochi inhabitants there and took over it? hmm....
let me better leave you here with Mostacholi so that you two could have a nice syber *** Or let me get you some Chao guy and that could make great troika :) (bad joke)
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OK guys. As you say i am crazy, I have some kind of halucinations, I am making up stories. Here it is read and judge yourself.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/11/25/russia-protect-civilians-occupied-georgia
By the way I have nothing personal against you WAlice. You do not want these things hapenning either, but unfortunetly they are. I know how it makes you feel... you start reciting poems....
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@ 287
"In the days of doubt,
in the days of heavy painful meditation of the scenarios of future of my homeland...
you are alone to me the support and pillar -
O Great and mighty
true and free
Russky language !
(if not for you - how not to fall into despair at the view of all conducted at home! but you can do nil but believe - that such a tongue - was granted to great people.)
Ivan Turgenev, 1882
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but ingag11, a friendly warning.
don't get overly relaxed at the view of Russian poetry. into which Alice collapses from time to time.
this is for me to think about me.
that is, for us, to think about Russia.
until I bought a notebook - your Georgian media links and quotes and youtube - are lost on me. i haven't seen, and haven't heard. technically - can't.
but I don't need Georgian in-put to worry about Russia.
we measure ourselves by own measure.
troubles enough, and no Saakashvili or ? whatever your media, or anyone else's media views or opinions in the world - for that matter - can add a bit.
and don't get overly relaxed that you pile nasty reports about Russia onto nasty reports and black-mouth piles after piles - and I don't answer - only write poems!
Russians are the most patient people in the world, you know.
which period of loooo-ong patience normally ends up by big bang.
which those who got lulled into false feeling of safety by seemingly Russian unresponsiveness to attacks - then stand in the ground zero - "and they wonder! they wonder!"
So don't repeat your Saakashvili's mistakes. in order not to wonder later on, collecting your bits and pieces from the ground.
"oh, how come? no?! not Russians. it couldn't be?!"
Russians saddle a horse long - and then we ride fast.
"God have mercy on us, save us from seeing a Russian revolt - senseless - and merciless."
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Ok, ok, ingag, all stop pouring salt on the wounds, at least for a while :-)
We all have our inner demons. By the way, Chavez is not one of them. Venezuela about 5000km from here, roughly distance between Georgia and Congo. I won't bore wou with ours, but it includes treason, genocide and the british empire.
In fact, i don't trust peoples without inner demons. That means thy have either no history, or no conciousness.
And links won't impress anyone. I could produce a ton of them showing how Georgians tanks shoot into building were Ossetians were hiding. That won't help. How it was , "open Pandora's box, don't complain if there are snakes"? And there are snakes everywhere, to be sure.
What's terrible is that someone tought starting a war was a good idea. And as always, some guy gets his macho-fix driving around in black SUVs and watching troops parade with expensive toys, and in exchange a lot of women loss theyr child, and a lot of elder loss theyr house.
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That iReport is not from Georgian media neither the HRW report. Both come from decent Russian citizents, who want to say that enough is enough!
Russian soldiers will tell more stories later on I believe, because they have seen they were not there for what they had been told for.
You need to go down on your knees and pray for forgivness day and night. I personally forgive you all, but I won't forget it. The reports prove that in 90s and since last August, what's been going on in Georgia is cold blooded mass murder. I do not think there is a lightest chance of having old warm friendship with Russia. My parents never let me and my siblings watch or read the news. They were afraid we'd hear how these people, many my close relatives among them were killed. Not the fact that they were killed, but how they were killed.
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Russian neo-nazis are cowards that is all they are. For all these years they were hiding that they were in war with us.
Do you remember last August after so called Abkhazia indepence Kabzon dancing to Aurora like in old communist times? Russian soldiers jumping up and down in soviet uniforms decorated with old soviet medals? Very spectacular comrades!
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#289 Alice Imeretians and Georgians are the same. Imeretians are the western georgians. I am upper Imeretian. And Sochi is truly a Georgian word. The last consonant is not ch it is pronounced differently, but since you do not have that consonant it is pronounced as ch. I am sure you will comfirm this somewhere. You have our beutiful city. So take care of it, but tell people to leave the rest of Georgia to Georgians.
I did not know Armenians were so sneaky. I heard an Armenian guy Simonyan is directing Russia Today for The Russian PM. They are also standing in the shadow and hiding their agenda. Everyone wants to have a piece of georgian land. Maybe McCain was right "wea are all Gerogians".
People did not understand why McCain said it; so sad. Even prominent open minded russians said the same thing last year when Georgians were targeted in Moscow. Do you remember how people wore a name tag saying "I am a Georgian" in Ana Politkovskaya's funeral? Luckily there are smart people left in Russia and they do not deserve their gov.
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Alice, did you see the iRepoert in #276? and what do you think about it?
I am not trying to impress anyone. We need to know the truth about who fought against us and who orchestrated it. it's an old story, from mid 1990s, but it is uncovering a lot. Hope nothing is going to happen to that brave guy.
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Eh, poor Nani Bregvadze was hoping for peace so much. [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] Now we have just Tbilisi left and all we can do is sing about it. While before we believed this would happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whg0WUTMgbA But we are christians and we'll nver lose hope and yes, we'll move the capital there!
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Oh no. More flag waving and cool camera work. You guys are completelly oblivious to experience, it's not funny anymore.
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Well, no it's actually funny, in a dark way.
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ingag11, I tried to watch what you quoted and asked but all I saw was "Russian soldier speaks the Truth (with sutitles)", a yound man stands on the canal embankment seemingly, and I read the 9 comments there are, some from some Katya some from some Nicolay, some from Drezden and Ukraine in English.
so what? I trust you you heard what he says and wrote to me. what is strange to have 1 soldier horrified by the war wrongdoings to the civillians? all normal people should.
We have seen 14 Georgian soldiers, who ran over to the Russian side now, and tell horrifying stories what they saw their comrades in arms were doing. They also didn't like to participate in killing SO civillians, so had to ran away to Russia.
And no, I didn't know of the Georgian priest killed because he disagreed the church is on Abkhasian land. But said it is Georgian land.
But absolutely all Georgian soldiers and units were staying in the churches in the SO. Because they figured out Russians won't aim at churches, neither SO "militia" would. In one of these churches, from where we had to carve the out, there were two 18-year old SO girls. Quartered into 4 pieces, each, nicely packed into plastic bags. A hello, left by Georgian army on fleeing away from their "churchy" positions.
Like mostacholi wrote you like to pour salt on the wounds, I don't. Who is to stand down on the knees there and pray for forgivance?
There is a huge degree of hatred there on the ground, fact. All very justified. Vendetta.
I understand you you hate it. But your view is one-sided. The other side of the coin your stubbornly don't want to see.
This I also understand, war, enemies, each side makes its case.
But I am not covering either side. When Georgian case is justified - like when you wrote "I am Georgian" badges we wore, when there was an anti-Georgian scandal in Moscow 2 yrs ago - Russians take Georgian side.
But when you start the war - I am not Georgian. And would not wear any "badges".
And BTW, you know why Russians wore "I am Georgian" badges back then? Because we protested against the cruel case of a Georgian man deportation from Russia. He was deported, they gave him no medical help in custody, in some train terminal before departure he was kept, in the railway station, and he had asthma and died because his inhaler expired.
But, for a sec., why did deportation itself started? Until that nobody cared how many Georgians are without visa or permits to be here, nobody ever counted. It's your darling Saaka said to his collection of businessmen at a meeting devoted to Georgian economy development. Cracked a nice speech, where the flashy phrase was he trusts in his wine-making industry further glorious development, as exports to Russia grow year after year, and "to the Russians we can sell any sh-t labelled as wine; they'll drink it and ask for more." All laughed and applauded.
O what a surprise mean and nasty Putin has slammed down the barrier on the Georgian wine import the next day.
Well, not the next, but practiclly.
Immediately directed the Sanitarian inspector Onischenko to take samples of the Georgian wines, all there were in the supermarkets, to lab tests, decompose into the ingredients, and scan by all ways technically possible what exactly is in their.
Until that nobody cared to look into your products, granted. "Sh-t" wasn't found, surprise surprise, but interesting amounts of pesticides were. And your wines were banned.
Sure thing our own wines or Moldovian may contain the same, but when we quarrel with someone - we check. And when we don't - well, we just consume pesticides, I am sure.
And this was followed by the review of Georgians in the country. 1 mln officially - allright. How many more million un-officially.
Sure your men need to earn money here to feed children at home. And nobody minded illigal immigration - until your Saakashivili kept his mouth shut.
Either you shut up, and have your people that you can't feed yourself grazing in Russia, and sell to Russia your wines.
Or you like to crack speeches on national TV, and show off.
Sorry, it's one or the other.
I don't know how many were deported in 1 month, sure many. But then the moan was such that the campaign stopped. And all continued as before. And your Saakashvili didn't say anything else nasty about us for whole 3 months!!! personal record.
Ingag11, nobody cares here about Georgian immigrants in particular, I can assure you. Like to trace them out especially and all. We are swarming with immigrants from the whole ex-USSR. I won't be able to tell one from another in most cases. I don't understand the Russian with any bus driver, any taxi driver, any cashier desk of my supermarket, neither the kiosk where I buy chocs and cigarettes, neither the vegetables and fruit shop in my house, there are foreigners everywhere, but kind of, our own foreigners, from USSR. No bad feelings. New generation, born after the USSR collapse, so were not taught Russian at school at home. Nevermind, will lern it here sooner or later. All speak with an accent these days.
I am not hysterical about it. People working honestly, drive buses, taxes, all normal people. Next generation - will be normal St. Petersburgers. All school teachers here moan that half of the class can't speak Russian. All the new /old USSR children. How to teach them? somehow all settles down. First year they don't understand the teacher, next year - they do.
Last year Russia first beat USA. Not in anything good. But in the amount of immigration to Russia. More ran into here than to the US. A record.
You really think 1 Russian surrounded by 10 foreigners has nothing else to do than trace them and explain them they are foreigners?
And what's this with "Georgia always suffered from Russia." By nationality - has always been - and is now - all the mafia in Russia - well, not all, own Russians are darlings as well - but the tops of the criminal world, the cream, has always been Georgians. Of 5 thiefs - in top ranks - thief tsars, so to say, controlling regions and markets, all split - 3 would be Georgians on any given day. The criminal world in Russia is still governed by Georgians, to a very large degree. Talanted people! what can one say.
But
This is normal, for both sides.
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Do not start with mafia. here in New York it is the Russian mafia who rules and luckily I am far away from that neighborhood. My friend just told me that video is nothing with what the Russians done in georgia in August. he'll be here on Sunday, so I'll tell you the full story. He said you won't go to see any horror movie any more. As for people cut into pieces. I do not believe you. Georgians do not do that. You need help truly. I noticed from the poems something is wrong here. You have a deep fantasy. So I should not aggrevate you....or someone might end up the way you described...
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So do Russians in georgia. hundreds of millitary families lived in a military town on our budget in free apartments. And my mother helped my older Russian neighbor for over 15 years with food, clothes and everything she could. if not us she would die of hunger thanks to the blockade of her own people.
Sure Georgians came to Russia because you kicked them out of Abkhazia and Ossetia you forgot that? You have taken over our houses. you robbed us. Right now your people are picking up our citrus and selling them in Russia. My uncle bought a brand new car with just one harvest. You are hungry people who can kill for food. Return our territories to us and there will be no georgian left in your st**y Russia. What do you have? Why do you think that you are any better than us. Just because you are a big country? We are done with you. Now you have to do with Him up there. Your soldiers has cleaned up evrything they stole everything they could even toilet seats, detergents and utensils.
If your st***d story has a drop of truth show me the evidence please. I have given you all kinds of evidences documented by your own people.
About that former soldier: we knew all that but we have never heard it from a witness. These horror stories reached us through the third persons. That is why it is so shocking. What they wanted from the preasts and nuns, why they killed them? Who are these kasaks? Are they people?
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ingag11, I hailed a taxi the day before yest, late for work again, not a proper taxi of course, a passing by car. there were two chaps in. drove me no problems. 300 roubles. we talked, I said I am a teacher late to class. they said they also want to learn English. i asked how they are with languages otherwise (because Russian was awful), heard each knows four: uzbek, tajik, farsi, the 4th forgot. with Russian makes 5.
I said they are very fit for any language studies.
I am late every other day, always catch cars, never met one Russian driver in 2 months. All cars without exception smell of awful, awful, revolting sweet perfumes or? from those car dangling vapourisers.
what to do. it's South, all like sweets and sweet smells.
another day two Iranians showed me their Russian passports very proudly. i didn't ask, as you understand. just asked from where are they. they said they are Russians! now.
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ingag11.
You didn't like the taste of own medicine.
In your very next post Russia got equipped with adjectives that won't pass through the moderators.
Georgia's population 4,6 mln.
And 1 mln. in Russia legally.
While they are here, and intend to stay, you can get blue explaining the world how bad Russia is to Georgians, was and will always be.
And by the way, anyone in his right mind seeing what Saakashvili says to Putin, and how you and I talk - would wonder why Russia ought to be nice to Georgians who come to work here.
By all looks we are in war. As min. - the propaganda one.
And, as any Southerners, you are not in the habit to forget and forgive for centuries ahead, granted.
So I think it'll be more honest for Georgians who hate Russia to go home.
However if they like to stay - I view the ones in Russia as "our" Georgians.
Because they chose to stay in spite of the war.
by your logic this 1 mln was inhabitants of SO and A. what a tight place then SO and A was.
and what strange Georgians they were - ran towards the hand that beat them and tortured.
I never lived at a Georgian expense I am sure. Neither my parents or grandparents.
Do not eat your oranges. You perfectly know they are not Spanish, have always been small and sour. Am not in the habit of stealing toilet seats, ho.
Why should I listen to all this crap from you and nicely reply?
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And, as any Southerners, you are not in the habit to forget and forgive for centuries ahead, granted.
In my experiance it is Northerners (ie Scotland) who are unwilling to forgive and forget
None the less I still support Russia against the murderous butchers that are the Georgian Armed forces.
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Bravo
303 WhiteEnglishProud
your last sentence is a wonderful crown to the discussion.
But what do you have against Scots ?
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