Chaos on wheels greets Kouchner
Convoy Kouchner was quite literally chaos on wheels. A high-speed chase through what was the Russian buffer zone between Georgia and South Ossetia.
The French foreign minister, who helped negotiate the ceasefire during the war, was out in front in a blue French armoured car, followed by another such vehicle, and then a train of police cars and in their wake a ragtag and bobtail of local and international journalists, gunning their engines trying to keep up.
The armoured car would stop, sometimes for hardly more than a minute, Georgian police would jump out, lining the route, pointing their sub-machine guns into the middle distance, cameramen and reporters screeched to a halt and ran up to the head of the convoy, just in time to take a couple of pictures as rather bewildered locals coming the other way tried to drive through the mass of abandoned vehicles.
After grabbing a couple of pictures of the minister saying something wise, everyone ran back to their cars and the convoy then moved off again, amid much honking and hooting, losing stragglers at each stop.
At one village, where Mr Kouchner stopped for about quarter of an hour, he spoke to a woman whose house had been blown up at the beginning of the war. He stood and chatted with her in front of the shell of her home, its roof blown off, twisted metal and glass crunching under our feet. Mr Kouchner later said it was "very sad, but not hell".
Perhaps a woman we spoke to in the village might not agree. She told us that she had just come back to visit her house and it was all in ruins, so she would be returning to the refugee camp in Gori. She said she only just managed to escape the bombs, and many of her neighbours were killed then and afterwards. She'd got ill living in the camp and was worried that as she was all alone she had no one to help her out. As she put it, "there is no one to bring me a glass of water if I call out from my bed".
Mr Kouchner was not trying to be insensitive, but is proud of the peace deal negotiated on behalf of the European Union. He described it as "not perfect, but a document negotiated under fire". He said it had stopped the Russians rolling on to take the capital Tbilisi.
But what bothers the Georgian government is that they say the Russians have kept land taken in the war, particularly the area of Akhalgori, an area of 26 villages next to, or in, South Ossetia, depending on your point of view. Mr Kouchner's convoy must have passed the turn-off on their way back to the capital, but did not go to investigate.
Whatever you call the area, the Russians weren't there before the war, and are now. No one seems to dispute that. So it is logical to see it as a breach of the ceasefire which states they must move troops back to where they were before the conflict began.
Mr Kouchner didn't suggest this logic was wrong, but didn't seem too bothered about this breach. He said the ceasefire was "not complete, not perfect". When I pressed him he said: "Did you listen for the noise of shots? Is the withdrawal complete? Yes, yes" - and pulled a face. He said that this and other problems would be a question for a conference that starts in Geneva next week.
Another journalist had a go, asking how he could say that the ceasefire had not been breached. "Do you have another solution?" he asked. "Step by step we'll do it."
Mr Kouchner has a habit of asking questioners what they would do and many European diplomats agree with him that there's no point in being purist about this.
One very senior European diplomat told me they were in for the long haul and the peace process is likely to last as long as that to solve the status of Kosovo. Many in the EU think the status quo is the best they will get and better than they could have hoped for in August.
As the senior diplomat put it, "time to take the money and run".
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For some peculiar reason I am totally unfazed by this Blog entry's summation.
With the French in charge of negotiation any bad deal will be acceptable.
Does Monsieur Kouchner really care about the Georgians? I cannot imagine so if all he is prepared to say to a woman who's house in ruins is, "It was very sad, but not hell." Not hell for him maybe!
As we have discussed endlessly in previous commentaries, the final result of the delineation of the borders of Georgia, the status of the Abkhazians and the South Ossetian will be determined by Global Powers and that will be the US and Russia but not France or the EU.
I doubt that the EU will ever be a Global Power as it cannot speak for all the EU member states with one voice and therein lies a problem that must be addressed before the EU can allow itself to be used in places such as Geogia to give legitimacy to the outcome of wars. The war between Russia and Georgia is a fine example of the EU having a role it is ill-suited to perform and actually makes the French, in the form of Mr Kouchner look like a pantomime Aladdin with his magic lamp . . . . . unfortunately he cannot produce a magic Genie to grant wishes and make everything seem wonderful!
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Mark,
Is it me or have you become reticent of late about naming people who make statements on behalf of the EU and who represent the peoples of the EU Nations in these diplomatic charades?
If a senior diplomat is suggesting that the deal between Russia and the EU is open for the Russians to modify on the hoof by NOT withdrawing their troops to their positions BEFORE the invasion then WHO is this person?
I think the the European public have a right to know who are these EU Diplomats who are accepting the Russian fait accompli BEFORE the Council of Ministers have met to discuss the situation and agreed the policy to go forward with into the Geneva Conference.
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Mark,
Did your unnamed politician talking about Ganley happen to be in Georgia or did you pop back to Brussels for a chat between your Georgian lunch party and the Bernard Kouchner Show? I mean, the BBC's webmasters could not possibly get your posts the wrong way round - could they?
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I think I saw in BBC one tear shed about destroyed houses of Ossetians.
There was one sentence, definitely, by a BBC journalist, who began his tour from Vladikavkaz, through the tunnel.
Tried to find it now, but not easy, it held 24hrs and is not under "Europe" anymore.
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Menedemus, before flaming with justified indignation, note that the texts of the deals signed allow Russia room for maneuvre.
EU diplomats might wish you, but cannot corner us on not-fulfilling the deal in its literal textual sense.
Besides, they aren't very much willing to, this seems right.
To add that Georgian troops aren't, haven't and don't plan to be where they are also written in the text of the deal.
This - if one wishes to glance itnto the incogruency - undermines the deal status as well.
To corner Russia - you also need to corner Saakashvili. This EU doesn't plan to undertake either.
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#5 - WebAliceinwonderland
I am inclined to agree with you. I think that Russia is being asked to carry too much of the blame by some in the west. I still believe that if we went back to the beginning of September, neither side would have acted as they did. There were serious mistakes on both sides. Criticising Russia for dodgy French diplomacy, however, seems to be going a bit far. It was hastily cobbled together, short on specifics and frankly M. Kouchner rushing round in a motorcade telling everyone how good it is does not help anyone. It is to be hoped that the Geneva process can put some flesh on the bones.
(Are you sure you wrote your first paragraph?)
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who cares about this conflict any more? sorry for being negative, but the reality is that all the major players have much bigger things to worry about now. this thing will just get shoved on the back burner and forgotten about. too bad for georgia.
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threnodio, normally the first thought is right, you know.
then I start getting watery, carried away by emotions, and besides my technical skills don't allow for spell-checking in the BBC. neither - how to make a word looking fat, that is, bold
nor to copy a line from someone's post to quote in nice falling to the side script, italic, like Meenedemus does. every time I tried to copy a line into Word first - the whole blog gets copied! to erase backwards then the whole blog to leave one line
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Alice,
Please believe that I actually am not cross with Russia in this. The Russian do what they need to do to be happy.
My ire is directed at Kouchner and unnamed EU Diplomats who accept dictated terms from either Russia or Georgia when it comes to the modalities of the agreed Peace Accord but then do not ensure the parties adhere to the agreed terms.
I quote the agreed Accord:
First of all the decision to base 7500 Russian troops in South Ossetia and Abkhazia is not agreed by either the EU or Georgia so is a fait accompli to which the EU should rile and remonstrate against Russia for imposing.
Secondly, the fact that the Russian troops have withdrawn to lines within Abkhazia and South Ossetia which were not part of either enclave is a breach of trust and cannot be denied from being a breach of the Accord which specifies the withdrawal should be to the lines prior to the start of hostilities.
It cannot be accepted that the seizure of Georgian territory not previously considered part of South Ossetia or Abkhazia is Russia, "while awaiting an international mechanism, Russian peacekeeping forces implementing additional security measures." It is most definitely Georgian land being "grabatized".
It is my view that such behaviour should be robustly challenged by the EU representatives and my indignation is directed at Monsieur Kouchner and the unnamed EU Diplomats who seem to think that this Russian behaviour is acceptable to them on behalf of the EU. It is not. And it is not their place to accept this fait accompli without challenging it unless that authority has been granted by virtue of any agrrements comuing out of Geneva in due course or with the express consent of ALL 27 Heads of State of the EU Member States (which would definitely not be true for the UK!).
Peace is a two-way process and not a dictated process. Russia is being somewhat dictatorial in how it implements the Peace Accord and the EU appears to be supinely accepting this diktat!
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Menedemus,
I have an awful headache, can't think properly and will look into this carefully tomorrow, OK? At a glance see one major point.
Point 6. "... in Abkhasia and South Osetia"
Forget about this "in".
This "in" is wishful thinking.
What Medvedev signed is "of".
Because of this one "of" (in Russian and French, signed in Moscow) that mysteriously became "in" - in English - there were spent 2 UN full salary days in hearty quarrels, and several hours in the Council of Europe.
Saw it on TV, Georgian Defence minister (likely their new man may be in future) raged, Lavrov raged, buildings shuttered, to put it short we won.
What is "of" didn't slip through to become "in". Definitely two different prepositions, sorry.
And needless to say Lavrov is eager to discuss safety and security OF Abkhasia and Osetia - in int'l organisations of all calibres - for centuries to follow. We always meant it is great and wonderful that all wish to discuss how to protect them from future Georgia's attacks.
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I am more and more disillusioned about the EU...united stance on financial crisis..no..breach of ceasefire..whats the big deal....and now marocco is becoming a member of the EEA...taking part in EU defence missions and whatnot...goodbye united Europe..
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In the end, the laugh may be on Vlad Puny after all. With t he world's economy collapsing every day, the US about to elect another incompetent ineffectual president, the war in Afghanistan going badly and the Taleban and al Qaeda resurging, focusing on obscure SO and AB through a microscope may be an rather extravagant indulgence in absurdity we just can't afford. How suitable it has become a French farce, theatre noir. Besides, with the Rus stock market down over 70% and shut down to prevent losing the other 30%, oil dropping from $150 to $77 a barrel and heading south as the dollar actually rises, all Vlad needs are more hungry mouths to feed when in another year or two he may find it hard enough to feed the ones he already has. You can't eat AK-47s. Anyone for Campbell's Soup. Nanotchka already has dibs on what what it, the chicken noodle or the tomato? I'll bet somewhere in their product line Manischewitz sells borscht. I wonder if it comes in plastic containers instead of breakable glass yet.
Ah, here it is.
http://www.thedailyplate.com/nutrition-calories/food/manischewitz/borscht-with-shredded-beets-33-fl-oz./
How many cases a month would it take to feed SO and AB?
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Marcus,
"...the US about to elect another incompetent ineffectual president....
But that is the American voters problem. I actually think the other guy is quite good, of strong character and good leader.
When it all goes horribly wrong, the rest of the world will simply blame the Americans for voting in the wrong guy.
The trouble is we all have to put up with the Americans wrong choice for a very long and tedious four years!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Of course I meant "jaunt" not "joint" and the irony is overwhelming.
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MA, that is the point I am trying to make for 2 months - Russia wins nil in grabatising SO.
Not so much about A. Olympic games ahead and normally all complain when they take place in war zones.
Abkhasia happens to be an hour drive from the main stadium.
And only very strong-nerved tourists were able to spend holidays on the beach in Abkhasia until now, because every now and then Georgies would make an in-raid through the Kodori gorge and give Abkhasians hell, or cruise in from the sea side, an occasinal bomb blowing up tourist here and there on the beach, and all. Kind of Israel life is in Abkhasia. Same type of holidays. They got used to, and Russian tourists got used to, but bad for Olympic crowds to come.
How to say - incompatible.
Now Abkhasia will be sealed away water tight from Georgia, 7000 troops, 27000 troops, as much as is needed, allowing for Olympic happiness. That is, if we won't quarrel with the whole world about it anyway, and anyone would come at all.
As to SO - no even ideas of any practical distant application. I am afraid with years all will have to believe they were attacked, gave a shout "Help!" and we helped.
On the existing base of personal disagreements btw heads of states.
And no use to look under microscope or think about any tubes.
It is very difficult to find a black cat in the dark room, especially if it's not there.
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Re: copy editing
And how about "...a woman who's house ..."?
Fings ain't wot they ustabee.
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Re #17
"Fings ain't what they used to be" for the woman about "wot" Mark was writing either! ;=)
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PS Bad idea of Saakashvili to schedule the attack on the night before Olympics.
I know you'd tell abour preliminary fights here and there, and that "Russia provoked", this is all silly, they provoked and we provoked for years. There was a rare night without fire across for years.
A mass military operation, 20 thousand troops - can not be a result of a nervous decision of Saakashvili taken "on the spot".
Requires time and preparations, he'd pre-planned it.
Locals are so clan societies, all knew via friends and acquiantance and family long before any generals! We began getting first refugees through the tunnel 2 days before the attack on Tshinvali, there were mass rumours there will be a big bang and Ossetians began to flee into Russia through the tunnel.
Anyway, Saakashvili'd better of on the Christmas Eve. Would be likely to lose SO only.
Kremlin is very sensitive about Olympic connotations, we are to host in 2014.
Kremlin must have thought "wow! no holy things for Saaka at all! in this manner - just think what he'd do to OUR Olympics in 2014 !
No Abkhasia for him, even that he didn't attack it! "
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Perhaps this knowledgeable gentleman would also make a similar visit to Gaza and Lebanon to see the damage done there. I'm sure thepeople there would value highly his comments being as how he is such an expert.
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You are very keen on selling soup Marcus. Do you have shares in Manischewitz?
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What I think Mark Mardell gave a right and timely shout about, being on the ground there, is the small places here and there, of ? questianble allegence ? quckly sealed in into SO and Abkhasia by Russian troops, without asking who they gave the oath to.
Mark must have been shouting "Aah! See what they're doing! By the end of this day will be late! It takes place NOW, in full view. With so many authorities swarming here, why not anyone opens eyes wide and look into it! " Something about the cortege of cars turning around one such a habitat, without driving into a side road.
Honestly, I have no ideas about mentioned name-places, in or around SO, where they belong.
Except for Kodori jorge - neutral land - btw Georgia and Abkhasia.
I think all the above must be learned in the UN peacekeeping deal papers of 1992.
There ought to be some geographic definitions mentioned there.
My wild guess is all these may be part of the neutral land, by 1992 papers.
Because there is such land - vivid example - road fr Georgia to Abkhasia in that split in the mountain, like a narrow valley, passage through, Kodori. From Georgia high above - down to Abkhasia on the shore.
Abkhasia and Georgia fight in this valley, with changeable success, for years. This is where they meet up. Mind it - Russians don't fight there. Abkhasia has own big army, very willing to fight Georgia, and that's what they do. All Kodori clashes has been strictly without Rus. soldiers.
Recent example - this war, when Abkhasians got high spirited by Ossetian developments, in August, about 13th? 14th, and made a successful raid into Kodori, kicking out Georgians from there.
Georgians violated neutrality, and have been stationed in Kodori, don't know since when, since spring approx.
There is a monastery in Kodori, the most unusual monastery in the world. All TV crews adore it. The church is all in shell splinters, constantly bombed away by one side or the other. But the monks there in long black gowns are the most stubborn monks in the world. They mend holes and return back. Both sides behave gentlemanly to them, say - "tomorrow we'll fight here again." Monks pack and run to the mountains, to sit in the holes/caves they have prepared. After one side wins, and new temorarily powers install in Kodori, they return back.
By deal 1992 there is a 25 km neutral land stripe btw Georgia and Abkhasia, to avoid direct rifle fire at nights.
In SO no such safety belt was negotiated
I think, or in very vague terms. Therefore constant direct fire, all close. Absence of neutral stripe in SO case is explained by absence of uninhabited land there, all so close, small place, nowhere to cut out a neutral strip of land from.
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One thing that saddens me is that I have yet to see ONE TV interview of S. Ossetians who were chased out by the Georgians. 30'000 of them fled to Russia but it is as if they don't exist. Most, if not all western Media are guilty of biaised reporting.
The second point is that the Russians have taken back land that the Georgians took during the previous war. The argument that "they move back to 'pre-war positions" avoids the question - which war?
Third/ The Russians won. Why hasn't the other part of the agreement been implemented, that of the return to it's bases and disarmement of the Georgian forces?
4/ Most people seem to have forgotten that it was in response to Georgian attacks that Russia moved and the shameful disinformation put out by "Human Rights Watch" of only 40 S.Ossetians dead, has not been corrected overtly - and it's "new" figures are still suspicious..
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"EU diplomats might wish you, but cannot corner us on not-fulfilling the deal in its literal textual sense.
Besides, they aren't very much willing to, this seems right." [#5]
Russian poster is right in his asessment which, incidentally, is shared by the Kremlin.
And herein lies a major problem for EU.
Looking at timid, I dont want to use the adjective "cowardly", response of "old" EU members, and lack of unified foreign and defense policy (let alone any unified European force capable of actual reaction) Moscow has correctly concluded that its future military interventions in Russia's "near abroad" can be conducted with total impunity.
[EU won't do anything because it has no guts, and US won't do anything because it's too far] So efforts to subjugate other countries such as Belarus, Ukraine and, last but least, oil/gas rich Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan are very likely in the near future.
On the other hand it is highly unlikely that the Kremlin, despite giving such a tangible support to S. Osetians and Abkhazians carrying Russian pasports and seeking national freedom and independence, will grant freedom and independence to Chechnya, Degestan and North Osetia, although all, and not just some, of their inhabitants have had Russian passports for quite a while.
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#9 Menedemus.
Yes, looked into it, yes, pre ante is pre ante.
By the 1st Sarkozy deal we are to return pre-ante. Unless it says some place there "to retreat out of Georgia proper- to pre-ante." No? then our bad luck.
I guess if EU presses on this point, Russia might return pre-ante, out of SO.
The swap likely to be based on the fact that Georgian army has never stepped "to their positions of usual encampment". Which makes the whole deal void.
But I guess the hasty paper does not even mention what happens if one side breaches the deal, be it Rus. or Georg. The whole deal becomes void? No?
Possible Russian stand may be - Since Georg. army hasn't returned to its permanent positions (Tbilisi) - we won't get out of SO. But if you insist that only Russia fulfills its obligations - we might.
In practical terms I think it will be possible when the Caucases ridge is excavated a bit more and the tunnel is widened, or another one for the railway is made, or 2-3 of them.
Because if Russia returns to pre-ante it will be for not more than a day, to satisfy EU deal, and then returns back immediately based on the SO-Russia deal of military protection between countries.
There is such a deal, and UN has papers that 2 countries in the world consider SO a country. The qualification minimum is not specified. I think?
But currently we can't grant Saakashvili even one day of SO without Russian army in. He'd try to snatch it within one day and will plug the hole. Because peacefully he can't return them back, so he has no options but force.
So only when the hole is wide enough not to be plugged in by one explosion - that's when we might clear away. Or maybe if Georgia has another leader, like Nino Burdzhanadze, as much as she hates Russia, still she is unlikely to take Osetians back by steel and fire. We hope.
With Nino we might even leave SO alone not for 24hrs, but ? 24 days. ? 24 months?
Anyway this is all speculative, so I'd think in case EU gets minded to insist, we should start working on the tunnel.
even one day we can't give Saakashvili
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Menedemus #13
"Marcus,
"...the US about to elect another incompetent ineffectual president....
But that is the American voters problem. I actually think the other guy is quite good, of strong character and good leader."
Really. BTW, which guy is the other guy? Oh, you mean McCain. You missed the intended irony of my comment. I was referring to both of the leading candidates. It seems to me our political process weeds out and eliminates the best qualified candidates early in the process. In this case, I don't think any of them even made it to the primaries. In fact I don't know one person today who is qualified. The only difference I see is what particular brand of incompetence we get. Not that their foreign counterparts are any better. The situation is as bad or worse everywhere else I look. Perhaps history will be kinder than I am. And perhaps history will look upon the current crop more favorably as future leaders become increasingly worse if that is possible. Call me a cynic, I don't care, that's how I see it.
"When it all goes horribly wrong, the rest of the world will simply blame the Americans for voting in the wrong guy.
The trouble is we all have to put up with the Americans wrong choice for a very long and tedious four years!"
This is the revenge our ancestors who were booted out of Europe, ripped out of Africa have exacted on the rest of the world. It's not that we do this deliberately, it comes naturally to us, we don't even think about the consequences to other nations anymore for the most part. I think many of us have stopped caring especially in light of the anti-Americanism we've seen so rampant among our so called allies in recent years since 9-11. BTW, among those who were the victims of your former colonialization, the immigrants to your countries both legal and illegal are their revenge. Europe's chickens are all coming home to roost at the same time. I never figured on the sub prime fiasco hitting Europe like a financial torpedo though. What a fascinating surprise. It proves that at best, European investors are no smarter than their American counterparts.
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I think that some posters are trying to make this too complicated. The situation of the ground is what counts and that basically is:
1. The original Georgian efforts to restore total sovereignty backfired badly. The Russians won hands down and are in the driving seat.
2. The French brokered cease fire seems generally to be too vague and inadequate but, make no mistake, if the Russians had wanted all of of Georgia, they would have taken it. The fact that some kind of agreement is in place is a clear signal that Russia does not want further hostilities.
3. The presence of unarmed EU monitors is not a sign of weakness on the part of the EU. It was what the Russians were willing to accept - indeed they promoted the idea - and if it works it is sufficient.
4. Nobody serious believes that Russia involved themselves in this adventure for purely altruistic reasons. South Osetia is of no strategic use to Russia anyway. However, Abkhazia is. With a Black Sea coast and within shooting distance of Ukraine, it becomes very important in the event of instability in that country.
That, in my view, is what the Russians wanted. They have achieved it spectacularly well and all it has really cost them is a month's bad press. We are inclined to view separatists as freedom fighters. Remember that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. The state department and the Kremlin do not make this distinction. They are excuses for the pursuit of a wider foreign policy agenda and nothing more.
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Alice,
I think the recriminations of who did what or does what in regard to South Ossetia or Abkhazia are a complete sideshow now - the recriminations that persist will neither bring back the dead nor lessen the grief of those left behind.
For my part, I no longer care if Russia was defending South Ossetia or whether the Russia put troops into both South Ossetia or Abkhazia or both. It is a sideshow now as the Western world (and consequentially the rest of the world) is confronted with bigger problems than whether Russia is a global power and should be respected or not.
I think both Georgia and Russia have actually done their nations a great deal of harm in the eyes of the world and have damaged some (if not all) of the respect they had in the eyes of the European Political Classes.
I think the most telling event of recent days was the meeting of the G7 Leaders and an agreement (of sorts) to coordinate their fiscal activities to minimise harm to one anothers' financial health. It was notable that this was G7 and not G8 and Russia was not invited.
I think that is more telling of the damage that this whole escapade has caused for Russia than it has done harm to Georgia.
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Marcus @ #26
Did I mean McCain? ;=)
Does that mean YOU think Obama is the "the one?" LOL
I think you missed the irony in my comment at #13!
Perhaps we could all do with John McLain in charge - anyone know the telephone of Nakatoma Plaza?
. . . . . perhaps we could get him to run for President!
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#26 - MarcusAureliusII
#29 - Menedemus
Whether you like it or not, most Americans will vote for whoever they think is best for (or do least harm to) their pocket book. They will wax lyrical about Iraq, abortion, creationism, war on terror and the price of gas but it all comes down - as Clinton so lyrically expresses it to 'the economy, stupid'.
I don't blame them for that. What I dread is Father Brown dragging out our problems till 2010 and scaping home on the back of this bloody fiasco.
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Menedemus, you mean Don McLean don't you?
Bye Bye Miss American Pie.
http://www.lyrics007.com/McLean%20Don%20Lyrics/American%20Pie%20Lyrics.html
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Alice, Re #10 The Russian-Georgian Peace Accord in photocopied original French version (with annotations) and New York Times translated version is available [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]. It should be noted that the New York Times version is identical to the Wikipedia translated version. As regards the difference in translation of the French preposition "en" to "in" or "of" - I care not a jot but the use of the French word "en" is different to "dans" only insofar as "en" is used mostly "to indicate distance in time or space" whereas "dans" is used mostly to indicate "from inside" or "from within". Poor use of French language by the French led by President Sarkozy is inexcusable when seeking a truce as important as the Peace Accord between Russia and Georgia. Having the French in charge was a BIG mistake - the French have a poor history of signing Truces, Armistices or Peace Accords - in 1940 they sentenced 5.5million of their own troops to 6 years of incarceration in German Prisoner of War Camps because they were in a big hurry to sign an Armistice! Then, having the spectacle of senior political world diplomats spending 2 days at the UN arguing the difference between "in" and "of" in relation to the specifics of a Peace Accord just simply reinforces my personal view that the United Nations is about as useful as a chocolate teapot and no more than a political get-together for politicians to have their own international talking shop!
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Marcus,
Don would do as well but at least John McClane is good with guns . . . .
. . . . he might need be good with guns to be when the Bailiffs from the IMF come to call on the USA!
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thenodio, there's an old saying in American politics that the voters vote their pocketbooks. For most of them those pocketbooks are empty right now. Neither Obama nor McCain seems to have a clue how to put money into them. Obama says he'll cut taxes for the 95% of the population who make under $250K a year but that cut probably won't amount to much because those in trouble with mortgages already have huge deductions on their 1040s for mortgage interest and real estate taxes. And whatever savings they get on their Federal taxes is likely to be offset by increases in real estate taxes by just about every state which is feeling more than a financial pinch. (Renters pay it indirectly in their rent.)
The good news is that no matter who wins, the Treasury will find it has no other choice than to print a few trillion easy to acquire dollars to give out to Americans like candy at Christmas. It's that or face a depression. That is good news for Americans who owe lots of money on houses, credit cards, the world's biggest debtor the US government but bad news for banks, foreign creditors to the US government and those who export to the US. The entire finanical structure of the world is about to receive one giant shake up. Guess who will eventually rise to the top. (hmmmm, no not China.)
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"Mr Kouchner ... is proud of the peace deal negotiated on behalf of the European Union. He described it as "not perfect... . He said it had stopped the Russians rolling on to take the capital Tbilisi."
I cannot really know , but I suspect that what really stopped the Russians was the movement of American armed forces and any softly spoken words the Americans uttered to the Russians in private.
Where was the Eurokorps or whatever it is? We had a posting about Mark Mardell with some "EU" Army thingy. Where were they?
Whatever. One thing these events are always about it the attempt of the "EU" the be a player on the world stage. The trouble with that is that they do not represent the people of Europe. They refuse to represent the people of Europe. They refuse to give the peoples in the "EU" the referenda they want. Push back the Russians! Push back the EUSSR!
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#28 Menedemus.
Yes, what to discuss. harm done. all seem to have stayed at first opinions. what were were doing here - God only knows.
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SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
"Mr Kouchner ... is proud of the peace deal negotiated on behalf of the European Union. He described it as "not perfect... . He said it had stopped the Russians rolling on to take the capital Tbilisi."
I cannot really know , but I suspect that what really stopped the Russians was the movement of American armed forces and any softly spoken words the Americans uttered to the Russians in private.
_____
Stopped the Russians from doing what? Are you seriously suggesting that the Russians, or, for that matter, any other neighbour power, would consider occupying that absolutely useless territory with GDP per capita on the level of sub-Saharan Africa thus taking responsibility of feeding its population? The Georgia's strategic significance for the US interests, while commonly discussed, has never been comprehensibly explained. The same concerns the adventure in Kosovo, another waste of taxpayers money with no conceivable purpose.
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Alice,
What we discuss does not have to be all doom and gloom!
I was well tuned into your discussion with Marcus and threnodio about the music you all love so much - it is clearly one thing that clearly brings people together and I find it fascinating. It makes it very worth while being here!
That, and the occasional differences of opinions we can all have over Europe and where we are all going to end up together! :=)
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It would seem from the comments here that Mr Kouchner is yet another fine example of the French penchant for pulling yet another defeat from the jaws of victory. How sad that he tries to put positive spin i.e. bulls**t, on the fact that he probably just got what the Russian negotiators were going to give in the first place.
I may be wrong but when the French are involved there is normally a business deal somewhere, I shall be interested to see what the French try to sell either Georgia or the Russians, or maybe it will be an energy deal of some sort that only benefits French companies.
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Aha. Menedemus. I just returned back to surrender. glad to see you. meeting me in mid-way.
I wanted to say to you - No! (that's our particular Russian way to surrender) Like, "No, Menedemus! This is defeatist!
That is, I was, defeatist, in #36.
You were simply offended, by my triumphal bombasting, for which I apologise.
Look at it fr this side: Rus-Georg. mis-deeds - side story, fades away in importance, and indeed whatever we think ab it - won't change what's on the ground. But discussing the big one - money - unlikly to change the course of events either.
Both are kind of over-head projectors.
So what. Music and weather? Mark Mardell though is doing there something. And it is sweet of you of course to say you aren't cross with Russia, no no, you only wish EU would be cross with it.
I began thinking I wrote all the wrong things to you. even that I can't remember for the life of me what I was actually writing.
Instead of telling cheerful stories I should have taken to methodic listing of casualties of the Ossetian side, incl cut away heads, quartered girls' bodies, missiles stationed in orthodox churches, so that artillery won't fire back, all those people buried shallow in plastic bags under the windows of the house, as their relatives weren't able to keep them in the heat inside longer, and ventured out only as far as their kitchen garden, the disgusting sweet smell of decomposing bodies that veils over Tshinvali for 2 months, how we gave the donor blood, the sign in St.Petersburg Red Cross - "no more teddy bears - we take bandages only", the refugee kids arriving to St. Pete railway station, and saying "it is so cold here! is it always like that here?" - you think I am lacking material on my side - what to tell?
I took it for granted that you understand the tragedy and the loss - of the other side -but this is apparently not the case.
many times in these blogs I wanted to suggest - to choose one - anybody - all other bloggers send 50 dollars - and one goes - to both sides - and tells us.
Georgian woman without a place to put head on - disaster. I am not Koushnir or how he is spelled. but what is the everyone's darling Saakashvili doing all this time? the first humanitarian aid to Gori - 25 tons, and 35 tons - was Russian. we understand. and we understand we are guilty. many Georgians lost houses, burnt up, after war, by revengeful Osetians. Russia didn't prevent that. you blame Osetians? but it is their neighbour bodies were quartered a week before they burned Georgian houses. they were killed. and went to revenge. it is not easy for army to hold them. even BBC, I mean, the stories of Georgians who were expelled from homes, none said it's Russian soldiers who tortured them. may be there were ! I don't know. but I didn't read it here, where I've seen - ah. what to say.
Back to that woman. one out of many.
we have thousands like her on hands.
why Russia carries portland cement, bricks, tubes, across the whole country, without trains to Osetia, all construction companies work there for 2 months, all gets slowly squeezed through the hole, at awful expense, in a hurry - because winter is behind the window - and people are homeless.
Saakashvili got a bln from EU, a bln from US, IMF is cancelling Georgian debt now, I mean, there is money - what about building a house for that lady - as we do for Osetians. without screaming all over the world. why she lives in the refugee camp? setians are not in tents. people took them homes. all children are spread around, every city got 50, and many asked for more.
we may lack on PR. but we build. what was destroyed by Georgia.
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threnodio, fine analysis, but how do you imagine Russians shooting at Ukraine?
Russians won't understand Kremlin taking aim at Ukraine. however collapsed and fallen to pieces and divided they be.
for this scenario to happen, you'd first need to plant some quality enemy into Ukraine
NATO troops, or American troops separately. And either would have to open fire first. and kill a good quantity of Ukrainians first hand, no less than Tshinvali.
I know the English like to bet. I am prepared to risk a 100 dollars. MAII have already switched the printing machine on, will print enough for all of us. I'll DHL you vodka for the amount, or you'll send me half a kilo of Accessorize store.
as to "invading next time" a place with the roofed concert hall, I took the note.
Last one was supposed to have full facilities. But Georgies turned S. Osetian Philharmonic Society Hall into small pebbles. So the orchestra accommodated themselves nicely in the 2nd best hall - on the front steps of it. if you saw the concert - you could have noticed - the 2nd best was one big & beautiful pebble.
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This has nothing to do with the thread but I thought it might amuse the regulars. Six of us went out for dinner this evening - 2 Brits, 2 Americans and 2 Israelis (one of Georgian origin). It dawned on us that, if someone had bombed the restaurant, the authorities would never figure out who the target was, still less who did it:-)
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Nanotchka #16
"....The bombs bursting in air, gave proof through the night that our flag was still there...."
Must be exciting at the beach in AB for a day with bombs going off. Almost as exciting as being in the water with a lightning storm just starting. Last one in's a rotten egg.
Hey ever go fishing...with hand grenades? It's a lot easier that way. All you have to do is find a school of fish, pull the pin on one, toss it in the water, and then you just paddle up to the fish and scoop them up with your net. No need to fiddle with hooks, worms, lures, etc. Much more efficient that way. Just be sure to toss it far enough away from the boat or you may have to swim back to shore....or be fished out of the water with a net yourself.
"The flowers that bloom in the spring tra la Breathe promise of merry sunshine...."
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#40 - WebAliceinwonderland
Alice - I know your comment was for Menedemus but may I comment?
Mercifully we do not all have to live with the horror of war on a daily basis but some of us have seen it first hand. Up close and personal. The last time I did - and I hope it will be the last time - was in Bosnia. The bodies had been disposed of by the time I was there but the destruction was terrible.
You write about the hurry in which Russian aid was rushed to S.Osetia but you do not mention all the aid from the west, sitting in convoys waiting for days for permission to go in to be given by Russia. Ships moored offshore waiting for permission to land their aid. Oh yes, the authorities in Russia were very quick to get the people to help but they were not in so much of a hurry to let everyone else in. Why, I wonder? Still too much evidence lying around maybe.
Going to war in the first place was stupid on both sides. Once war has begun, terrible things happen. But after war is over, nobody has the right to play politics with the victims. The abuse of civilians in time of war is, in any case, a terrible crime. Doing too little too late after wards is unforgivable. Every city had 50 child refugees? Alice, the entire population of S.Osetia was fewer than 98,000. Do the maths. There are nearly 10.5 million people in Moscow alone. 100 times as many as SO.
I actually think that Russia has a much stronger case in the Georgian affair than many in the West give credit for but that is not the point. Face it, you are either not being told the truth or you don't like the truth. If the Russian authorities can get an entire symphony orchestra to SO for a televised public relations stunt, they sure as hell can get large scale humanitarian relief in.
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Nanotchka, I think it is terribly tragic when a concert hall is blown up. I think the one Boston Symphony hall was designed from was in Leipzig. I think it was destroyed during the war, bombed out. I might just feel a touch more sympathy for the SO Boys and Girls if I didn't have a sneaking suspicion that they and their friends on the other side of the line hadn't planned it this way all along and could hardly have hoped for better. Now why would I think such dark thoughts about such fine fellows as your countrymen? They have such a long shining record of protecting human rights and value life so highly. And how will they justify invading Ukraine? By the same strategy, creating a pretext where the "West" will stupidly do something violent and the white knights on white horses from the Red Country will ride to the rescue. What brave folks you Russians are. Which do you prefer, Alexander Nevsky or Meadowland? How about Midnight in Moscow?
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#45 - MarcusAureliusII
The Leipzig Gewandhaus - yes it was badly damaged but the shell survived and it was fully restored after the war. Leipzig has now built a brand new concert centre but the Gewandhaus continues in use and has a wonderful acoustic. Symphony Hall is very similar and has the same beautiful sound.
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"Are you seriously suggesting that the Russians [...] would consider occupying that absolutely useless territory with GDP per capita on the level of sub-Saharan Africa thus taking responsibility of feeding its population? [#37]
Yes, if only to sabotage oil and gas pipelines
running from Baku to Turkey(Ceyhan, Erzurum) and farther west (which they did).
BTW didn't Russia invade useless Afghanistan, also with GDP of sub-Saharan Africa?
Exept that Russians didn't feed its population; on the contrary they starved it, destroyed their country and made thousands of Afghan children permanent invalides with made in Russia bomblets disguised as toys.
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threnodio.
Aug 14 - Sep 14
I was told here - and as you write I could have been told lies - that "the West" has no humanitarian help for South Ossetia.
Lavrov said he's asked several times - how about aid for Ossetia - and was told "we are thinking about it".
Do you have information to the contrary?
That there was humanitarian help - Western - intended for the S.O. - delivered by airplanes, like it was for Georgians, landed in Tbilisi - and then the convoys of trucks or something - by land - were not able to make it to South Osetia from Tbilisi, to break through the Russian cordons on the roads in the buffer zones?
2. Aid from US ships. Arriving by sea.
Of 2 ports in Adjaria (Georgia) - Baku and Batumi - one port was free - Batumi - the second port - Poti - had a Russian garrison stationed on the shore, 2 km off the beach.
Russian garrison observed - at a distance - as much as they could, encircled by beton cordons, and double lines of protesters with posters (posters strictly in English and Georgian - facing strictly the TV cameras, not the garrison) - as aid is delievered by boats from the US ships to the shore.
Neither in Batumi, nor in Poti US ships anchored the piers right in the port.
No doubt you were told it is because of awful russky-s on the shore. Wrong.
both ports are shallow. possible to anchor by big ships, but awful nuisance. Russian navy joked ab US navy, that they don't wish to scratch their beautiful sides, and it is not that piece of cake, after all, to anchor in unknown before waters. We waited US ships will come immediately close. but none of them did. preferred to stay at a distance. Russ navy even put forward a proposition, when a US ship approached Batumi port, then turned off, that they saw wrecks of the Georgian ships we destryed in the sea-battle on Aug 10th, that it is a bad premonition to anchor by the ruins.
In either case nobody deterred US navy to nachor. they opted not to. and carried help to the shore by boats. water bottles and "hugiene kits". Rus. garrison on the shore in Poti was there to spy on military aid delivery. Crazy idea from the very beg., because theoretically they won't be able to, but that was if you wish - the point.
Nobody prevented water bottles and hygiene kits and whatever else for that matter - delivery from US ships.
So, where is that "un-delivered" to Georgia or South Osetia humanitarian help. Where is it resting?
I think if you happened to collect a shoe-box - it was not intended for SO. Remember - it was not bombed in the first place. Or was it?
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With media Russia behaved thugs. No denial. A journalist, by definition, ought to be let to go whenever he wishes to go.
And this shouldn't depend on from which side he arrives - enemy Tbilisi, or own side - Vladikavkaz.
The only excuse I can put forward is Russia wasn't thuglish in the beg. The war was short, 5 days, but till the end of Aug int'l media was not only "allowed" freely, but encouraged at max - to go to South Ossetia, see, talk to whoever you wish, write as much as you can. Speak to any local, Georgian or Osetian, speak to any soldier - all were told not to refer to "go speak with my superior" - but to answer by himself. Since when here. What doing. Anything.
Int'l media pool accredited by Nogovytsin had no problems. Zero. To the opposite.
Army even specially organised them trips - Moscow-Vladikavkaz - South Osetia - Gori - and not once.
Many did go. Two were wounded in the helicopter trip to the buffer zone. Still went. 120-gang only ! was delivered to Gori and let around to check the homes, speak to whoever they find, do whatever.
Osetia, buffer zone, and Gori Georgia proper - included into the "packaged tours", not Osetia only.
And what? I saw one article on BBC, one wrote for sure, a lady from BBC was in that Gori trip. Haven't seen anything else. And meanwhile daily I saw on TV direct broadcasts press-briefing of Nogovistyn - showing journalists maps, answering questions, doing all they please. They seemed to absorb - and not to write.
Fin. Times shoving him under the nose the photo of the killed Georgian woman - 4 times only - he had to reply how come. And when it was chancily discovered it was indeed a South osetian killed in Tshinvaili - haven't seen any apologise. Happens.
We gave info and welcomed media.
That they don't write - what can you do.
It was dropped I think, as hopeless.
Carry a thousand western journalists to SOsetia. All they'd be interested in - show us a Georgian house burned by Osetians.
Other houses don't fit, other bodies don't count.
This is a hopeless case. Western media not only preferred to skip coverage of the Saaka attack at once - but didn't desire to correct own stand later either. Lost case. You can't do nil, stone wall.
So, from about the 2nd months on - media is indeed simply split on the allegence basis. Not even that - simply - from what side do you arrive. Same journalist. From Valdikavkaz - go. From Tbilisi - will be stopped by the cordons.
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With media Russia behaved thugs. No denial. A journalist, by definition, ought to be let to go whenever he wishes to go.
And this shouldn't depend on from which side he arrives - enemy Tbilisi, or own side - Vladikavkaz.
The only excuse I can put forward is Russia wasn't thuglish in the beg. The war was short, 5 days, but till the end of Aug int'l media was not only "allowed" freely, but encouraged at max - to go to South Ossetia, see, talk to whoever you wish, write as much as you can. Speak to any local, Georgian or Osetian, speak to any soldier - all were told not to refer to "go speak with my superior" - but to answer by himself. Since when here. What doing. Anything.
Int'l media pool accredited by Nogovytsin had no problems. Zero. To the opposite.
Army even specially organised them trips - Moscow-Vladikavkaz - South Osetia - Gori - and not once.
Many did go. Two were wounded in the helicopter trip to the buffer zone. Still went. 120-gang only ! was delivered to Gori and let around to check the homes, speak to whoever they find, do whatever.
Osetia, buffer zone, and Gori Georgia proper - included into the "packaged tours", not Osetia only.
And what? I saw one article on BBC, one wrote for sure, a lady from BBC was in that Gori trip. Haven't seen anything else. And meanwhile daily I saw on TV direct broadcasts press-briefing of Nogovistyn - showing journalists maps, answering questions, doing all they please. They seemed to absorb - and not to write.
Fin. Times shoving him under the nose the photo of the killed Georgian woman - 4 times only - he had to reply how come. And when it was chancily discovered it was indeed a South osetian killed in Tshinvaili - haven't seen any apologise. Happens.
We gave info and welcomed media.
That they don't write - what can you do.
It was dropped I think, as hopeless.
Carry a thousand western journalists to SOsetia. All they'd be interested in - show us a Georgian house burned by Osetians.
Other houses don't fit, other bodies don't count.
This is a hopeless case. Western media not only preferred to skip coverage of the Saaka attack at once - but didn't desire to correct own stand later either. Lost case. You can't do nil, stone wall.
So, from about the 2nd months on - media is indeed simply split on the allegence basis. Not even that - simply - from what side do you arrive. Same journalist. From Valdikavkaz - go. From Tbilisi - will be stopped by the cordons.
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Which senior diplomat are you referring to mr Mardell? Please remind him he doesn't represent anyone, his layer of government (EU) has no legitimacy and no support of any majority anywhere.
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Alice,
I think your are beating up on the Western Press too much. Pro-Russian media will be as guilty of taking sides or being biased in how and what they choose to report.
The first victim in war is truth.
In any war or conflict there will always be two sides to the story as to causes, two sides to the story of who did what and when and two sides to the story of what happened after the cessation of hostilities.
When all is said and done, the Russian intervention into Georgia was an invasion for which the Russian will claim justification and the Georgians claim as interference in their legal suppression of a violent insurgency.
Who was right and who was wrong is now as much history as whether Comrades Stalin and Molotov should have signed the Non-Aggression Treaty with Germany in 1939 which Hitler took to be a green light to invade Poland.
The recent Russian-Georgian conflict is over and done with. Neither Russia nor Georgia have done very well out of these events as Georgia has lost territory and Russia has lost prestige and respect in the eyes of the world in trying to play the role of honourable enforcer.
It has been a tragedy for both sides really and the media reporting has just amplified the tragedy of the loss of factual truth when it becomes influenced by prejudice and/or opinion - something which is evident from all media reports concerning this now-defunct conflict.
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Nanotchka
"With media Russia behaved like thugs. No denial."
Why, just because the KGB assassinated the journalists who challenged Vlad Puny? Hmm, I suppose that was not a very nice thing to do. Sometimes those Boy Scouts running Ruskyland just forget to help old ladies across the street. Too busy cooking up ricin. Boris Badinoff and Natasha Fatale are busier than ever carrying out the orders of Mr. Big these days. And they were worried they would be out of work when the cold war ended. No reason for them to be concerned now, they will have plenty to keep them busy. Which former Soviet slave colony will be the next to fall? I'll let it be a surprise. Maybe Khirghiz. What are the London odds makers betting on?
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To powermeerkat At 10:28am on 12 Oct 2008:
Concerning the Soviet invasion of Afganistan. You are quite correct that in terms of rationality it was totally imbecile. The only comprehensible explanation I have heard of was the claim by Bzhezinsky that it was his idea. I believe this is true. It is interesting, whose idea was Vietnam? Or Kosovo?
However, the Soviets left there a number of roads and other infrastructure projects. Besides, it was due tothe Russian and Iranian help that the anti-taliban forces were able to survive till 0911. And the Russian assistance was vital to the success of the later american anti-taliban operation.
However, I agree with sen. Obama that the recent american operation in Afganistan was a mistake. It is becoming increasingly clear that the root of the problem is Pakistan. Afganistan itself, as you quite correctly described, is just a desert territory without any strategic significance. A playground.
Concerning the georgian oil pipeline from Baku. It makes sence only provided the oil from the Central Asia is to be transported that way. It is becoming clear, however, that Kazakhstan is going to use more reliable and convenient transportation routes through Russia or Iran. Moreover, China is becoming the main recipient of the CA oil and gas.
The popular idea about oil as casus belli, either in the Middle East, Central Asia, Georgia or any other territory, is irrational. For instance, Iraq would have supplied the same amount of oil for the same price to the same clients regardless of the ruling regime.
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Menedemus # 52 yes may be you are right.
how can western media write if they don't get where they want. and as most of them start from the wrong side they never will. and if they will - it's like that horse that you can bring to water. so like you wrote, the whole story will slide into oblivion, in heavy mis-spelling. from both sides.
Just what did you think I will write? My country does bad, my government does bad and I only dream how to run away, meanwhile, waiting for the Campbell's soup?
Same luck to hear as a head of any Central Bank these days stepping out on stage with the message: "Guys, I'll tell you honestly - we are busted. No money left, not a nickel. So save yourselves as you can - and - wait ! thank you for attention."
I thought writing how bad Russia is - enough of people besides me. I am a month? or two? only, looking up BBC, CNN. Haven't seen any ordinary news about Russia. Only soldier muzzles and some metal behind, a missile or a tank.
If I were your side, seeing continuously this -
I would myself get dis-acquainted with myself.
Somehow Russian media is more merciful. Don't remember anything military seen about UK or USA or anyone, for that matter.
I daily see various British wanderers, in various parts of the world, researching some Egypt pyramides or butterflies hell knows wher, or fish, or I don't know what.
What not. Educational programmes, cultural programmes, about your Proms in summer, I don't know - every day something happens. That silly spider that walked in the square in Liverpool. Somehow I don't see bad things about West here. Unless one concentrates on the main Russian TV news channel. And even there - will find with difficulty. Though, if to think - you might also fight someplace, somehow? Or have military trainings, or anything?
But no, it is only Russia, constantly "stretching some muscles" forgot which. Like a morning exercise you'd think it's here.
Anyway.
(MA -just you wait. with "through the night - our colours still there." my internet at home doesn't work now, I am in a cafe. simply wait)
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In fact, both Georgia, and its Western friends, have to be grateful to the Russian government for its quick and timely military reaction which averted a large-scale disaster. Thousands of well armed volunteers from the tribes of Northern Caucasus were ready to cross the border to the South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Northen Ossetians, Chechens, people from Dagestan, Kabarda, Cherkassia... This would have triggered a butchery of unimaginable proportion. The georgian army, despite all its american training, is no match for these notoriously tough, efficient and ruthless traditional warriers who would have been driven by the desire to avenge the georgian attempt to genocide their brothers. In that scenario, any possible attempt of NATO military interference would have resulted in a protracted guerilla war in mountain condition that might turn out more bloody than the one in Afghanistan.
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#56
Not that NATO was ever going to get involved in Georgia . . . . . .
But, Guerilla Warfare?
Have the NATO troops had the training to become guerilla fighters?
Although the idea of NATO troops being able to shoot at or bomb their enemies and then become innocent civilians (and part of a wedding party) the next minute might be a welcome relief for the NATO troops.
A bit of what goes around comes around if you understand me!
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Hey Nanotchka, you'd better behave...otherwise.....the soup Nazi will getcha, hahahaha...NO SOUP FOR YOU!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNwbjcuQUv8
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Menedemus #57
I didn't get your point. That Georgia is going to be a NATO member is a well known fact. I presented an absolutely realistic scenario of a war between the georgian army and the Caucasian guerilla fighters that would have happened hadn't Russia interfered. That war would have been lost by the Georgians like the one that happened in Abkhazia 15 years ago. What would then be the reaction of NATO?
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fragiliti is right. I am not sure how large- scaled it could be, but Abkhasia packed to go first. At midnight my TV showed me the Georgian TV with hierogliphs (night 7th to 8th), at 1 am I wrote an e-mail to friends abroad informong of the "new war in Caucasus), at 2 am my TV told me "head of the unrecognised republic of Abkhasia" is talking to the volunteers gathering by his office, they'd be ready to step out in the morning. Abkhasians were left at home, eventually, but Chechens Russia took on board. One batallion, Vostok, who came to Vladikavkaz quick as a fly, and when I heard of it, I like chilled out myself.
Chechens never fought before in the Russian or Soviet army. They are not even drafted in by compulsory military draft. Never were. No mad Soviet commanders.
One exception - all the other republics are drafted. It is simply enough to be a Chechen by passport to be able to avoid military service. Here they insisted they are taken, and they'd take it as an offence by Kremlin if they won't. Home-made ones were left behind in Vladikavkaz, but their most regular as much as possible "local army" - one batallion - was taken.
I heard this is when Georgians ran. Not when Russian army got to Gori, but when Vostok was spotted in Gori.
Awful.
The Chechens
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#59
Several former Warsaw Pact Countries have been afforded the opportunity to seek membership of NATO or to seek partnership with NATO to gain additional diplomatic resources.
As of 2008, Individual Partnership Action Plans are in implementation with seven countries: Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Moldova, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Montenegro.
Armenia, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan have stated they have no desire to join NATO.
Georgia and Bosnia and Herzegovina on the other hand are actively working towards future NATO membership.
This may change if the governments of those countries change and decide not to pursue NATO membership. It is also by no means definite that these nations will gain acceptance by ALL exisiting NATO members who have to ALL agree new member accession.
The USA is keen to see Georgia progress membership of NATO but France, Germany and Italy (in particular) are countries that that are actively arguing against Georgia being granted membership of NATO in the near future. Many other European countries are also ambivalent to seeing Georgia accede to NATO membership in the near future.
After the recent conflict between Russia and Georgia and the exisiting difficulties that Georgia has with Russia I would bet my house on Georgia not getting membership of NATO any time soon - particularly as many European NATO members would not be prepared to risk war with Russia to defend Georgia.
Thus your theory of native hordes descending upon Georgia at any time soon is very unlikely to see NATO response and your supposed threat may even be the reason why Georgia will never gain NATO membership for all I know.
I am sorry if you did not see the humour in my comment @ #57 but never mind.
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#59 - fragility
I think it is clear that, however tempting the political dividends - and they are not in this case - NATO would not admit any country which was not secure within it's own borders. Georgia is either going to have to accept that SO and Abkhazia are lost or they are going to have to abandon any hope of becoming a full member until the issue of the breakaway provinces is resolved to everyone's satisfaction.
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Once again. Considering the alternative scenario I described above, does anyone have any doubts that the Russhian military action has averted a much greater and longer-term disaster?
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51. mcdv-1975:
"Which senior diplomat are you referring to mr Mardell? Please remind him he doesn't represent anyone, his layer of government (EU) has no legitimacy and no support of any majority anywhere."
A fair question but Mark didn't write "EU diplomat". He wrote "European". If, as I suppose, he meant a politician from Europe as opposed to one from Africa, Asia, etc. he most probably does represent a government elected by the people. Anything wrong with that?
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On the other far-away issue. Heard that Somali pirates put an ultimatum, that they will sunk the ship, tanks&crew incl., if the ransom, 1 mln US per person, insn't paid by Tuesday night. Rus. captain Kolobkov died of high BP a while ago (becomes a bad trend with our sea-men), so there are 17 Ukrainians left, 2 Russians and 1 Latvian = 20 mln. Suspiciously my news don't say if we are going to pay our 2 million, or if Ukraine plans, for that matter. Neither heard of Lativia's stand. As if it's so much money! Or are they going to be rescued in attack of US navy? Mercy on all.
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#63 - fragility
My point being simply that however tragic and protracted you scenario would be, it would have nothing whatever to do with NATO because never in a month of Sundays would Georgia be admitted to the alliance under those circumstances.
Only if the resulting conflict were internationalised would NATO become involved and that would require direct Russian intervention. In terms of your worst case scenario, Russia would be using surrogates. No internationalisation - just an exceptionally horrible and lengthy regional war.
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#63 - fragility
. . So yes I do agree. But if you look back through this thread, I have consistently expressed the view that the Russians were not as irresponsible as many in the west have painted them to be.
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Mavrelius, what's this with soup again?
I am worried for you. You are supposed by this time to be brainwashed by my Russian propaganda, and what do we have as a result?
"hahaha Nazi soup hahaha Campbell's Campbell's "
In this mode Kremlin might hold back my September salary.
When you're speaking to the doc don't offer him to choose btw noodles and tomato. Simply remember that, and I hope we'll see you in the blog again, a new man.
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#64 - greypolyglot
Yes. there is a lot wrong with that. Cast you mind back to the last thread - a report on Mr. Ganley arising from an interview with an unidentified senior EU politician, an off the cuff report by an unidentified senior diplomat in this one. Over on UK domestic politics blogs, we have briefings by 'unidentified sources close to the prime minister'.
This is the cynical manipulation of public opinion through spin. Diplomats are supposed to talk to each other, not the press. Politicians are supposed to be elected by us. How on earth do we do that if we don't know who they are. It's time for these people to put up or shut up. A good place to start might be a pact amongst journalists. Go on the record and we will believe you. Don't and we will not publish.
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#65 - WebAliceinwonderland
Pay them - I say - with an Icelandic cheque.
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threnodio #67
Thanks for your clear answer. It appears that the internalisation of the conflict is precisely what Saakashvili had in mind when planning his action. Not wthout ground, as we can hear from the republican candidate. Would it be correct to see the current EU diplomacy there as a sort of reargard activity leading eventually to the equilibrium situation you described?
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#56, Fragility,
".. a butchery of unimaginable proportion". threnodio, by the way - it'd still stay that, even that NATO won't be involved.
or - "JUST an exceptionally horrible and lengthy regional war", as you put it.
Something with my English. I'd put "but", instead of "just".
NATO isn't involved now. still you worry. and this one wasn't exceptional, and lengthy.
Besides, I mean, I'd like to take you on the word of course, that NATO won't be involved in our regional, whatever they'd happen to be - lengthy or not. But there is a sort of a hanging feeling that NATO just might, at some point. Heavy biased Russian premonitions and old prejuduces and all.
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#70 threnodio.
We're becoming suspiciously too bosom friends with Israel, for that matter. The talk is "Neither Israel nor we pay to the ones who take hostages."
What has Israel to do with it!
what?
they were the only country so far who stated tout loud they stop selling arms to Georgia a./
Israel cancelled visas for Russians, post-war immediately. must be the only Western place on the planet we can go without visas to now. b./
This hard stand on terrorists and "eye for an eye" is explained in their circumstances, but I am not happy at all we're getting equal to them in these respects, and here are coming the first fruit.
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It is funny to see how people are discussing somebody else's conflict with such arrogance. I believe it will not be so enterteining for you guys after Abkhaz, who are as much Georgians as Megrels and Svan tribes by origin, will rise against criminal soviet government and kickout the Russians from there too. This is how it used to be historically. Unification of georgia always started from abkhazia. Abkhaz always go back to their motherland Georgia. In fact, many of Georgian names have Abkhaz origin. And former Abkhaz foreign Minister A. Smirba also believes that we are one nation and separatism is shameful. Current Abkhaz leader's wife Marina Shonia is Megrel Georgian too (check his background please). Belongs to same tribe as Saakashvili's mother, as the Georgian Ambassador Alasania too. So outside sources are driving poor Georgian tribes crazy and it can be fixed only from inside and it will be.
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ingag11 @ 74
I am sorry if you feel that we are being arrogant.
You wrote, "So outside sources are driving poor Georgian tribes crazy and it can be fixed only from inside and it will be."
I think you will find that is exactly what is going to happen. Georgia will be left to its own devices and the most help Abkhazia will get from the EU will be some EU Observers patrolling on the Georgian side of the Abkhazia-Georgian borderline.
The only two nations that might buck against interfering in your internal dispute now are Russia and the USA but, after the US Presidential Election, I would dare to suggest that Georgia will be a very low priority for the USA to be concerned about.
So if the Abkhazians do decide to rebel and rise against criminal soviet government and kickout the Russians from there too it will be on your own and fixed from inside.
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Nanotchka, hahahaha, you are far too little too late to brainwash me. Madison Avenue got to me first with infinitely more powerful tools. How can Neanderthal post Soviet lunacy compete with "Double your pleasure, double your fun with double-good, double-good, Doublemint gum" stuck in our minds even though we haven't seen that ad in over 30 years? You don't know how lucky you were in the USSR not to have chewing gum but I'll bet you found out the first time you stepped on a piece in the street in a Western city and got it on the bottom of your shoe. How can your latest five year plan compete with "Pepsodent toothpaste gets your teeth whiter, brighter" or your parade of tanks and missiles on May day challenge Dinah Shore singing "See the USA in your Chevrolet?" See what I mean? Have you got "satisfaction guaranteed in 30 days or your money back?" When I lived in Europe, I noticed immediately that European toilet paper felt like sandpaper. That was 35 years ago. I wonder if they caught up yet. I know you have more missiles and bombs than we do but how can that compare with Charmin squeezably soft tiolet paper? You can't wipe your rear end with a hydrogen bomb.
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Poor Mavrelius. Yes, we've also got all that crap, but we tend to use it as a rich broth for anecdote production factory.
Something ab. the US wash-powder ad.
"Your shirt is not yet white? (says a chap visiting all with a box of wash-powder and fixing their spots) - Then we are going to pay a visit to you! "
Russian version: "You don't have democracy yet? Then we are going to pay a visit to you!"
___
MAII, don't overly advertise in the blogs US preferences of squeezably soft t. p. (others, pls don't read it, it's intended to MA only).
It is anyway a 6 decades' standing belief in the eastern quarters that "how to dis-arm a US army? take away soft toilet paper from them."
_________
ingag11 - I won't write off the scenario of Abkhasia starting to take independent action, agree. They do seem 10 times more able of independent moves that SO. independent
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#71 - fragility
Yes, I think I would agree with most of that.
I am not convinced that Saakashvili wanted to internationalise. I suspect he thought he was sending a well equipped and well trained army into the field and that it would be all over in 48 hours. I don't think he bargained for the level of resistance or the international reaction. Above all, I don't think he expected his army to turn it into Gunfight at the OK Koral the moment they got there. Properly planned, his forces would have gone straight for the tunnel and sealed SO off. The Russians would have had no choice but to accept the situation or attack from the air.
I also think that Saakashvili was unduly alarmed by American satellite intelligence about Russian force concentrations in N.Ossetia. We now know these had been going on for a long time and were probably simply a warning. Once the whole thing had kicked off, I think Moscow's response was both predictable and understandable.
As regards the 'unofficial' apparent interest of McCain, it is one reason why I think he is potentially dangerous and divisive and I very much hope the Americans will use there heads next month. EU diplomacy has been a bit problematic. There is a perception that Sarkozy was hasty and did not really focus sufficiently on detail but, to his credit, it was an emergency and he did move quickly. It is Kouchner's job to dot the Ts and cross the Is. Hopefully they will do this in Geneva. I would have waited until after Geneva before taking my roadshow to Georgia personally since he was bound to take flak for it.
The EU observers are exactly what both sides wanted. They are unarmed so they cannot get involved in a gunfight. They have a semblance of impartiality which no NATO or UN force would have had and there has been no trouble. The Russians appear to be playing ball and I do not understand some posters who have described the response as weak.
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#76 - MarcusAureliusII
I want to go back to the sandpaper days. Now we have beautiful soft tissue which everyone takes for handkerchiefs and you are often just left with - well a problem.
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69. threnodio:
"Yes. there is a lot wrong with that.... Cast your mind back to the last thread - a report on Mr. Ganley arising from an interview with an unidentified senior EU politician."
Mark actually wrote "I sit in the office of a senior politician ...". So, nationality, party, elected parliamentarian or not, etc. all undisclosed. Not quite the same thing as an "EU politician" if, by that, you mean an MEP. Apart from the fact that you're twisting Mark's words you make a valid point "Go on the record and we will believe you. Don't and we will not publish." Agreed. But reporters live on unattributable quotes so don't hold your breath waiting for them to change just to keep us happy.
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#80 - greypolyglot
That is a bit picky. Mark Mardell is European editor and he was talking to a 'senior politician'. What are the chances that this was not an EU politician - either an MEP, a commissioner, whatever? My definition is fine. Whoever it was, he/she was happy to brief on an anonymous and non-attributable basis.
These people want us to trust them, take them at their word that they are committed to the democratic process and open government. OK be open. Tell us who the hell you are.
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threnodio, menedemus and fragility
Just to tell you how happy I were, that the affair is not "internationalised". That night when I saw it on TV and wrote to friends in Engand, and USA - that there is a new war began in the Caucasus 2 hrs ago, and all, I remember I wrote "if Putin in Pekin now gives a whistle this night - we are in war tomorrow as well" and "only one relief, Georgia is not yet NATO - so you and I - we aren't necessarily in war with each other by tomorrow's morning."
You know I'd hate to inform an English cousin who goes to sleep peacefully and happy and knows nil, that there is something boiling up this night in the place she knows not the name of, and on the wake up Alice is up in arms against her."
_____
ingag11
While Abkhasia is unrecognised it is a grey zone. Russian military base in the Caucasus and holiday destination for Moscow and St. Petersburg by direct train.
If/when it is recognised rules will start to get applied to it. Int'l observers and monitors "how exactly are their elections legimate" or we will ban their leaders of travel to the West, can they really do a thing by themselves or are they a Moscow colony - and Moscow would have to keep a face, since announcements have been made - "independent", and all that jazz. The beauty of it is it may eventually in the long run even join Georgia back. When it's independent - it's a thing. Can team up in alliances or whatever. As a grey zone - it is Russia.
In the very long run I'd think one Caucasus is a thing of its own. With the amount of cross-cultural relations there, all seem relatives to each other, or bosom enemoies of each other, all so inter-vowen weaven.
Somehow I have a vague feeling Chechnya is thinking in this direction, united Caucasus - under Chechnya. Nevermind what they think, but the "united" idea of a bigger thing thsn Georgia or Chechnya is recurring at odd places recently. If one takes notice to observe.
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ingag11.
think big. what's fun for Georgia to be a US colony. what's fun for Abkhasia to be a Russian colony. what's fun for Chechnya to pretend they forgave old grudges to Kremlin - while Kremlin pays money.
And Dagestan. And Cherkesy. And Kabardino-Balkaria.
Where is that naughty independent and full of pride Caucasus spirit.
Get united into an own United States of Caucasus.
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#82 - WebAliceinwonderland
Nice idea Alice. Four problems:
1. It's a tribal region. Everything is fine and dandy when they have a common enemy - Russia, Georgia - its does not matter. But as soon as there is no external threat, they turn on each other. They always have. It must be in their genes.
2. The fault line between Islam and Othodoxy runs straight down the middle. If ethnic violence did not flare up, religious violence certainly would. How long would it be before Chechnya proclaimed an Islamic Republic?
3. Some parts of the region are actually doing quite well. Azerbaijan is oil and gas rich, Armenia is westernised and quite well developed and they are not fighting each other any more. Why would they want to get involved with neighbours who are some of the poorest people in the northern hemisphere?
4. Russia would never allow it. Small territories some may be but taken together, the North Caucus region is vast. It is also full of untapped mineral wealth. The Russian economy is commodity based. They will hold onto it for that reason alone.
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Oh well. And I thought I had an elightment.
If Russia were sitting in muscovites tsardom eternally, thinking - oh, what are there may be bad neighbours behind Urals, hell knows, we'd better sit at home - we'd never get Siberia. For example. We'd be Finland.
Anyway I thought it would be not bad to have something in the Caucases to out-balance Chechnya. We are holding them. so far. the question is for how long. a very, very energetic and young people.
With Armenia and Azerbajan I didn't even mentally count these in the Caucasus, funny, haven't even thought. here you are right.
Religions always a mystery. Ask me what is Dagestani religion. Kabardino-Balkaria?
Georgian sea-shore, Adjaria - I'd put into Islam category, for the half-moons in their cemeteries. But somehow they are Christan, Georgian, so at times two get combined.
Mineral resource, yes, so much un-tapped that I don't even count it, but there must be some people who did the accounting.
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81. threnodio:
"That is a bit picky. "
Sorry. That's the nature of the beast. A translator or interpreter who doesn't pay attention to detail and try to be as precise as possible isn't worth his salt.
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Nanotchka, it was said during the cold war that Russia was the only nation surrounded by hostile Communist countries :-)
threnodio....one day your problem will be solved when the people where you live discover....Kleenex facial tissue. That's what we call it and it comes in sheets in a pop up box. Pull one out, the next one pops up ready for use. Just as soft as toilet paper. What will those Americans think of next?
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86 - greypolyglot
Fair point. As an expat, I encounter the same thing every day. No offence :-)
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It is high time for you to realise that after
Georgians tried to get the territory of South Ossetien with force and were pushed back - there is no chance to get to the status quo before the Georgian aggression. South Ossetien will never become Georgian territory and Ahalgori is part of South Ossetian.
By the way, I recommend you to go over the border to Zhinvali and talk to the other side. All your materials are one sided - typically pro georgian sentiment.
Zhanetta
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#87 - MarcusAureliusII
"What will those Americans think of next?"
Saving money on Kleenex by stealing toilet paper, I expect:-)
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thanks threnodio. I was reading the other blog tick tick and thought even Georgia is better to discuss, so looked up here in the hope to see anything encouraging.
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Since this thread came to a stand-still temporarily awaiting Geneva decisions, will take a liberty to quote a self-critical poem on Russian expansionism.
Lecture "On int'l situation" read by a prizoner sentenced for 15 days for hooliganism, to his cell-mates. 1979.
I don't put macaroni on your ears, chaps,
But here is a zig-zag and a paradox:
While some are being elected to Roman papa-s
Others are locked into a tight box.
All the positions there grabbed via acqaintance, and,
They took a low profile, hoping it will pass
Meanwhile - in the whole good honest Italy
There wasn't a candidate for pap-s, from own folks.
Oh, how untimely our powers tossed on me arkan! (a lasso)
Because I'd down a glass - and - to the Vatican!
Church authorities spent too much time pondering,
Vatican lost the precious time
menawhile - we tossed them own Pope
From our folks, from the Polish, from the slav.
So here I am sitting, on the hard prizon bed,in Siberia
If only you could know, when ruining my life -
That I had all the chances to become a Roman papa
And to the Mum I'd take, well, surely, only you.
In power, with money, with a crown -doesn't matter
Fortune tosses people around like kittens.
How could have we skipped the position of the shah?
Next Russian generations won't forgive us that.
The shah has signed in total own disability,
That was the time - to grab him - and re-place!
Where to get one? Any second one in our Turkmenia - a ready Ayatolla and, even, Homeyni.
All my life I slam with antlers into closed gates like a ram
When I ought to have taken Koran - and - to Teheran!
In America, in Asia, and in Europe -
This one is sickly, that one can tomorrow die...
The place of Golda Meir we have flopped entirely
And there, for a sec, a quarter of people - our own ex-folk.
Along our Volga, Kama rivers go boats; in them - talents
All equipped with cloaks and daggers.
Ruslan Khalimov - my neighbour in the prizon cell -
Compared to him - Mao - can take a rest!
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#86 greypolyglot,
I just reread the "Get Ganley" thread introduction and Mark wrote the following key words "Senior politician", "in Brussels (Ganley's words)" and "the European Parliament has instructed the Irish authorities to investigate his funding and motives".
I have to say that interpreting that and the rest of Mark's detail in any language points to an EU politician, and most probably an EU commissioner since they are in effect senior politicians rather than just an ordinary MEP. It is somewhat symptomatic of this breed of 'passed their sell by date' unelected politician that they work by whispers, leaks and innuendos rather than having the courage to declare themselves.
#87 MAII,
Oh my, wow, you've got pop up tissues these days, things must be getting hard over there with drying all those tears. You also asked what will those Americans think of next? could it be boxes of past it pop up politicians so that when you pull one out, the next one pops up ready for use, great for your US election campaigns where all we see is an endless stream of former enemies saying how great the new candidate is, and hopefully as easy to get rid of as a used tissue.
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Zhanetta is a dreamer I guess. First of all it is not Zhinval it is Tskhinval, which in Georgian means -walked by the horse or in other words the horserider's road. Do you even know what Akhal Gori means?I guess you'll have to learn Georgian to know what is what in Samatchablo, now so called S. Ossetia. South Ossetia is The Georgian Prince Matchabelli's Estate (By the way his museum was bombed during the war by the new Soviets) and if we are so kind to let the Ossetian refugees settle down there and even in all parts of Georgia they need to coninue inegrating with the local population period. If not, they are free to just immigrate somewhere else like I did.
I genuinly believe it's the new Soviets who did all this not the Russians. My Russian friends were as upset as I was during the war and we are still the best friends. I really hope Russian intelectuals like Lebedev, Ilarionov, Pozner will get more power in Russia.
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ingag11,
the name of the capital would be written not in a way how the georgians want it to be but how the people living in Zhinval want. As to the refugees - if there is an agreement and if they are peacefull they
should be allowed to come. But there is no chance that georgian police or army will ever again enter these territories.
By the way South Ossetien was incorporated into the administrative terrotory of Georgia only in 1922 - Georgia itself was part of the Soviet Union at this time - not independent.
zhanetta
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eh, Zhanetta, you are still living in Soviet times. Georgia was a sovereign part of the USSR not an integral part. Georgian police will definitely be in charge in Samatchablo together with EU police. EU will make sure everybody's rights are protected. We did not come to Rostov-Don, you guys came to the Caucasus and have been devastating Caucasian tribes like Igush, Circassians and Georgians since then. You must realize that we are the native Georgians; Smatchablo and its large city Tskhinval (NOT ZHINVAL) is the unceparable part of Georgia. There are ethnic Ossetian villages in Sachkhere, Imereti too. So what about them? Or you wanna take over Imereti land too? This is why the rest of the world is getting tougher with immigrants. First they beg you to help them. Then they have as much chilren as they can and at the end they cick you out of your own home. This should be a good lesson for everyone.
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ingag11,
but if Osetians did come up to the mountains from the plaines down (and who knows ? historians? well, Osetians must know themselves) - anyway, when was that?
when Tchinghiz-Khan ? that would be 13th century !
and still - immigrants in Georgia ?
you have very good memory !
I understand why you do, it was a key for Georgia to survive among aggressive neighbours, but still.
You can't simultaneously consider same Osetians own people and immigrants.
My idea is your consider land own, and Osetians on it - immigrants.
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ingag11,
your comments about immigrants sound
a bit racist. I am surprised ..as to the facts.
Georgia was a sovereign part of the USSR like Abhasien was in the twenties before being forcefully integrated into Georgia by Stalin order. Abhasien is independant now and will always be , like Kosovo or Slovakia. What problems do you Georgians have by not allowing nations live separately from you if they do not want to? Your police will never return to Abhasien or Ossetien - you tried it but were thrown away from Abhasien and now from Ossetien. EU police will be allowed into Abhasien or Ossetien if the people there will agree to it. That is life...You lost the war which Sakashvili started with the american money. Now big brother has more important problems to solve than to struggle for Georgian chimera. And EU has sober heads in charge
compared to the amateurs who started the Iraq war.
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It does not really make sense to talk to Zhanetta Hizbalovna Hamazova anyway :) ;
I think it's better if we discuss with her Chavez' and fidel Castro's frienship; track down Brezhnev's medals and evaluate how soviet proletariat achieved their 5 year plans and won the honorable banner - the higiest prize for the best performance. NOt money but the banner :)
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ingag11,
it is the second racist post that you wrote.
race and names
give people neither superiority nor lameness.
For Hitler Jews were the enemies of the
world - for you - it seems your ex compatriots. I understand why Ossetiens and Abhasiens do not want to be part of Georgia. Georgians declared in 1990 - the
policy of assimilation - that was the begining of the end of georgian territorial integrity. as you sow, you shall mow .
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Zhanetta,
That is so not true. You are talking about 1990s right. How come Armenians living in Tbilisis still have their Armenian schools and Russians still have Russian schools having their own programs? How come my relative half Georgian half Abkhaz traveled to Tbilisi twice a year to buy Abhazian dance costumes, wigs and accessories for Sokhumi Abkhaz dance groups? I think it is Georgians who have preserved their culture and saved them from complete rusification. Got it right? :))
As for Ossetians there are two kinds one which does not really get the separatists. The other ones are those who moved to Georgia from the North after the communists dug Rocki tunnel, because there was absolutely nothing connecting these two sides. So these north oseetians are the ones causing the trouble.
When Russians caused killing of 200 Ossetian children in Beslan that time North Ossetians called for independence from Russia and joining Georgia, but Russians , sorry new Soviets apprehanded them before it spread.
Georgians were given task in Ossetia - not to shoot unless attacked, see also HRW research; many ossetians witnessed that. Georgians were running towards the tunnel to stop the Russians and restore rule of law in this part of Georgia which had become the oasis of crime and intolerence for past 20 years.
Ossetians civilians died when Russia attacked, because they do not care about the people they care about the territory . Sanakovs were in the separatist government but when they realized how corrupted and how wrong kokoiti is they moved on Georgian side.
Georgian president offered the separatists seats in the parliament and the position of the vice president, but kgb is in charge in both of these places and the final goals for them is to get Georgia, but it won't happen.
Russia fooled the UN for many years and illegaly "peacekept" these two Georgian territories, while it was the one who instigated the conflict and it was within its interest not to let peace happen in georgia.
In Aprill 2000 Russians entered 6000 Rus. troops into Abkhazia/Samegrelo and after interantional condemnation they had to remove them. Apkhaz leader Bagapsh was asked to attack Megrels there and that would make tGeorgia step in, but Bagapsh did not do it because his wife is Georgian too and that is why now Russia is not supporting him any more and intend to replace him with Shamba.
So this plan did not work in Abkhazia and they now tried to atack from Smatchablo. I saw one Ossetian man talking upset on Russia Today interiew saying: "They (Georgians) are hardworking people, much more hardworking than us." His point was that Ossetians looted Georgian families and burnt their houses because Ossetians did not like to work and hated to see their neighbors living better.
This is why these new Ossetians want communism. They can live on welfare and everything will be free for them while the hardworking people like in the past would be the ones creating wealth in the country.
However Goergian is planing to give free helath care and som benefits to people. It is working on it, but will never have anything to do with the soviets I believe.
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ingag11,
3 main points.
- Anyone Russian - among terrorists - who took Beslan school hostages ?
Why North Osetian parents then ran trying to kill Georgians in the streets in Beslan?
- "Georgians given the order not to shoot in Tshnivali " - may be.
After the city was rocket-shelled by the Georgian army for 20 hours without a break.
Then the army was supposed to drive the tanks through the city quick and reach and plug the hole. However they found it pleasant to kill Tshinvalians, in spite of the orders may be, and stuck in the city.
- Why are you sure these mysterious "soviets" exist and cause all the trouble everywhere.
Everyone here is shrewed capitalists, of the worst pre-historic format. Forgot when I saw one even distantly resembling a "communist."
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
webaliceinwonderland,
it is difficult to understand what ingag11 wants to say. maybe too much inedible georgian wine.
The problem with half of Georgians ,who did not manage to come over to Russia as the other half did- is that they decided that american kept tie eater puppet will bring them lost territory and prosperity.
It was a mistake. Russia did a good job.
It showed Georgia its place. The best solution for this country would be - to implement Turkish and Azeris plan for confederation for
Georgia - to gurantee the turkish minorities
basic rights and save them from asimilation.
Many years ago Georgia ran to Russia for help from Percia and Russia helped.
This time -with US tied up with their problems and weaken by the crisis - the best help Georgia will get -will be from Turkey In the Georgian part of this confedertion - they will still have some place to train their soldiers for future missions according to Big brother plans
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I do not understand what do you want Zhanetta. Again you are comming to the pages which discusses Georgia and you should expect different opinions expressed here. I do not agree with you. Your thinking is in line with Russian skinheads to me.
Shamba's statement in Geneva yesterday prooved it is impossible to deal with the separatists. I thinks Shamba is ashamed of his own behavior. Georgia is not asking much from Russia - JUST LEAVE US ALONE!
Your separatists are thieves and crooks that us who they are. My house in Abkhazia with huge orange groves is taken by extremests and they blong to jail period. And you get a life.
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Our main goal now is to rebuild our country, so Zhanettta or whoever you are you are not in our agenda and do not poke your nose in our business. Why do not you understand just get out of Georgian villages. We do not want to hear from you in 100 years. Those territories are ours and nothing will change that. You can have a acation there for next 100 years if you want to. Akhal Gori means new Gori so did you Ossetians named this Georgian village Akhal Gori? It is ubearable that these thugs are getting away with this, only because we respect to international law. I know our time will come.
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In fact Abhasiens should build a monument to Michail the tie eater. Only thanks to his
actions -Abhasien got independance. Now the game is over. Sooner or later Turkey where the abhasien community is strong will
accept the independance of Abhasien and the South Ossetien will for ever or at least for the coming 50-100 years join North Ossetien and consequently Russia.
As to rebuild the country - you can rebuild of course what is left.
For what happened you can blame only Sakashvili whom German politicians call
crasy adventurer.
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Russians keep shooting civilians and bombing bridges in Samegrelo villages. It's interesting how long EU-USA is going to take this.
It is interesting that the same people who were anounce as persona non-grantas in Georgia are stirring the situation in Latvia. Latvia has aired the Russians diaspora meeting there where these people worked in the rooms. The diaspora activists called to keep spreading russian passports over the world, that it worked in georgia and it would work everywhere else and that Russia should "save the world from USA and the West." You need to contact latvia TV stations to watch this. I guess all these Russian diaspora meetings have to do with gaining superpower.
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I guess someone turned bitter after hoping to loot Georgian wine but it turned up poisoned with the rat poison to catch big rats who call it now "inedible" :)
And it is funny why are they provikoing us by saying "what's left". On one hand thank you - this is the recongnition of territorial integrity when you say that those parts are not the part of the whole now. Bitterness and jelousy is what has taken over thier minds and souls. They are also making Misha very popular by using his name in every sentence. Now Latvia is facing what Georgia has faced and nobody will blame Misha soon.
Russia is opening many fronts now and I do not think its weak artilery will survive it.
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